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Speaker 1: The the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the.

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Speaker 2: The the built, the the the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the.

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Speaker 1: The, the, the, the.

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Speaker 2: The the the.

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Speaker 3: The the the the.

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Speaker 2: The dot, the the.

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Speaker 1: The, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the.

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Speaker 3: The the the.

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Speaker 2: Built, the the the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the,

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the the the the the, the, the, the, the, the,

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the the the the the.

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Speaker 1: The the.

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Speaker 3: The, the, the the.

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Speaker 2: The the the, the the, the, the, the, the, the, the,

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the the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the,

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the the the the the.

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Speaker 1: The the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the.

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Speaker 4: The the do.

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Speaker 1: Don't they.

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Speaker 5: Built the.

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Speaker 2: The, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the,

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the the The.

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Speaker 1: Black gangs, black.

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Speaker 6: Bishops, black players, people of the chocolate persuay lang gangs,

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black bishops, black players, people of the chocolate versus way

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lang kangs, black bishops, black players, people of the chocolate

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vers way lang gang, black bishops, black players, people of

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the chocolate persuasional.

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Speaker 5: But the dark ages at the time when black people

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ruled Europe.

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Speaker 7: So when you go into the real history.

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Speaker 5: You'll see King James with that's King James, or that's

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James Lebon, that's.

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Speaker 1: King Lebon right now.

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Speaker 5: Black. He was not a white guy. You'll see his

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whole lineage of.

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Speaker 1: Kings, black kings, black.

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Speaker 6: Bishops, black players, people of the Chocolate Persuade, black gangs,

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black bishops, black players, people of the Chocolate Persuade, black kangs,

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black bishops, black players, people of the Chocolate persue, lack King,

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black bishops, black players, people of the Chocolate persuasional who

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was a.

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Speaker 5: Homosexual himself, who was in love with his sisters.

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Speaker 2: Lucretia, who they made the image of Lucrecia to be married,

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and that became the Renaissance era queen.

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Speaker 5: So all, are you telling me a little Cretia that's

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a black game right there? Are you going to say

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that the people that was framing the black people were

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also black?

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Speaker 4: That don't make no sense.

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Speaker 5: Lucretius are black as hell named Luquetias. The Church even

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allowed it, you know what I'm saying.

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Speaker 6: The Church allowed for straight pempers that have been suppressed,

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that have been suppressed.

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Speaker 5: Listen to my brother from fifteen hundreds, it was legally

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black kang, black.

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Speaker 6: Bisiops, black players, people of the Chocolate Persuasion, black gang,

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black bisips, black Players, People of the Chocolate persuasions.

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Speaker 8: More space. Let's create moment spaces. God, it's a very tube.

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He looks good good, more space wise, more manus space wise.

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Speaker 5: Space space space.

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Speaker 8: Magic underwear fitting type, magic underwear.

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Speaker 5: It's feeling right.

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Speaker 8: More men space wise, more space wise, Lords of the Cool,

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I would like to have intimacies with you.

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Speaker 5: On the planet of the.

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Speaker 8: Boom space wise.

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Speaker 5: Magical under.

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Speaker 8: Where right by there? Ye, more man space, Let's create

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lies more space wise. God, that's a body money. It's

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a very tomb. He looks good good, more space wise,

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more space space space magic underwear fitting tape, magic underwear.

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It's feeling right, more man space wise.

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Speaker 5: More A lot of people said it was their favorite Lords.

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I would like.

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Speaker 9: With you.

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Speaker 5: On the planet it's supposed to be Naboo and the

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other one. I what's up, everybody? Welcome right the more space.

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Speaker 10: Space all right, all right, welcome, it's time for another

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live stream. You know what, I just about can't stand

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this booger whistle song. I'm gonna be honest with you.

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It's tough playing it. Uh he gets in my head,

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and I actually actually I'm getting a little a little

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frustrated with that booger whistle setting.

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Speaker 5: You know what I mean. I'm just over here looks

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Max and looks Max before you guys are here with

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me and Derek Zulander. I mean clavicular.

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Speaker 10: Clavical clavicular to antiquity over here, he got me, looks Maxim.

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What do y'all think that these are the These are

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when I do these faces, These are pictures.

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Speaker 5: These are for the thumbnails. So that's your ask, Why

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looks Maxim? Why do you think?

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Speaker 10: Do you know how much work goes into being a

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diva like myself and having to look looks Max all

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the time?

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Speaker 5: And uh, you know, people act like, oh, you don't

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have a good a real job. You just scream at

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the internet. Excuse me.

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Speaker 10: The makeup and hair people that are in my trailer

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right now, you're saying that they don't deserve a job.

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Speaker 5: They should just go get on EDT's and Welfare's. Excuse me, bro,

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I looks maxed in the nineties and I'm still looks

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Max in because I looks like I'm in the nineties.

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Speaker 10: I mean my face and styles as well. This is

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like a ninety shirt. It's got cassette tapes on it

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and boomboxes. So all I almost say is when I

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look at you, any of you, when I look you

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in the eye, you better believe I looks maxing you.

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Every look is it looks Max. So that's what's going

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on anyway.

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Speaker 5: All right, we had a hype debate, So that's another

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reason why there wasn't really much point in popping on

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a live stream when that big debate was going. And

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actually forgot the time that debate, so uh, it just

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ended up working out to do it later. And I

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know a lot of y'all was whining.

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Speaker 1: Where is he at?

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Speaker 11: Why is he on bipop time?

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Speaker 12: Why?

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Speaker 10: Because I'm a I'm an indigenous person. Okay, it's not

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part of my culture to arrive when the clock right

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all you people that oh time is real. Oh I'm

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part of the boomer time matrix. I must submit to

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the authorities of the time zones.

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Speaker 5: Yeah. I don't live that way. I live free. And

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so we're gonna be analyzing the debate. Cleaves already clavicular

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clivicular to antiquity has already got clips up. Let's just

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see this clip, because this is the hype clip already.

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We know this about to pop off and.

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Speaker 10: Now I've only watch the first thirty or twenty minutes

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of the debate because I.

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Speaker 5: Was trying to.

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Speaker 10: Get it's long, and I'm gonna be honest with you.

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I think, and I've said this for a long time,

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what's his face?

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Speaker 13: Here?

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Speaker 5: Is the worst debater And that's why I never accept

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the debate with him. All cuse you're scared. No, I

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just knew all along. We knew UBI and I both knew.

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Speaker 10: UBI tried to set up a debate with him for ages,

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and it's all this hassle to get it actually going.

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And then he demands a formal debate with me, and

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I don't owe you a formal debate. Plus I think

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you suck at debating, and everybody sees that. Once again,

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I think I've be indicated. Now it's the your patience.

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Speaker 5: So you know I'm going to struggle and try to

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not get to not get it. Uh, you know it

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too sassy. I won't get too sassy. But here's the

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clip right here.

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Speaker 14: You talk about pop Pios in ninth who he was,

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and thank you so much, Alex for for that presentation.

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You talk about pop pioson ninth who he was and whatnot.

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None of that matters.

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Speaker 10: Okay, hey, it turns out none of it even mattered

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because all we needed all along was these dudes. You see,

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we needed Tim Gordon and Elijah to come along and

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explain papal minimalism, and now the system works.

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Speaker 5: And I saw Tim Gordon when he was defending Stranger Things,

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or as I like to say, Stranger's Thing, which was

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like the gayest show of all time, now right. I

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noticed Tim's defense of it was I will craft a

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story to make it work. Literally, so he like crafted

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the story of Oh, it's actually a bazed narrative that Vecna,

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you know, was touching butts and that's what made him evil,

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and that's why Will is touching butts. Right, And I'm like,

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wait a minute, I thought I was.

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Speaker 10: Watching any and it's an insidious show targeting the youths.

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Turns out, no, it was all bathed the whole time.

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Speaker 5: It was all based.

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Speaker 10: Okay, not really right now, that's a pretty ridiculous Tim

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Gordon narrative. But I started realizing Tim Gordon and the

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Papist they do the same thing. They actually think, all

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you gotta do is craft narrative that makes it all work.

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And I really think that a lot of people's world

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views and religions. They actually think that it's a system

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building enterprise where you just kind of construct some things

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and come up with some stuff like the Scholastics did

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new distinctions.

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Speaker 5: This and that, and that makes it work.

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Speaker 10: So if there's a theological problem and a parent contradiction

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and actual contradiction, just craft.

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Speaker 5: A new story and it works, just like Tim does

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with Stranger's thing.

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Speaker 10: All right, we'll go to calls here in a moment.

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We've already got somebody on the line. We're gonna talk

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about the debate. We'll be talking about some other cultural

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stuff too. What's up man, Well, he can't connect, so

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you can call in at the link in the show description.

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Speaker 5: It's the Twitter space link if you want to call in. So, Yahsi,

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did I think what everybody expected?

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Speaker 10: It's all the same classics sort of you know, quote

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mind stuff, he says Pope Celestine latter in six forty nine,

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the stuff that most of the papists do in every debate,

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probably just Eric Obara's stuff repeated. It's not I'm not

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going to replay his whole opening statement, Nick con what's up?

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Speaker 1: What's up?

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Speaker 14: Man?

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Speaker 5: Did you want to say? Something.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, can you hear me, I can hear nice?

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Speaker 3: Nice, Yeah, I was listening last night.

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Speaker 7: I wanted to respond to.

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Speaker 15: So you guys are talking about figurations, types of things

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having to do with the Crucifixion.

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Speaker 5: Yeah.

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Speaker 4: I did think of one a while ago I was

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lifting weight, and.

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Speaker 15: That is, if David is a type of Christ, perhaps

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the harp is a type of Cross.

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Speaker 3: And then it comes to come to find.

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Speaker 4: Out that actually is something that the Father wrote about.

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I think it was sane from it. I can't remember correctly.

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Speaker 5: I haven't heard that.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, harp and then uh, that was pretty much it.

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Speaker 10: I just wanted to you were trying, Yeah, how does

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the harp relate to the cross? I don't understand that,

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but I mean, I'm not saying it's not true, just there.

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Speaker 3: Was some stuff like I guess I could have brought

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my quotes.

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Speaker 15: But if you look this up, if you searched, like

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church fathers harp, you know prefigure man, Just do a

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Google search.

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Speaker 5: Now, now harp.

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Speaker 16: HARP is the auroral atmospheric project that their weather control.

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Are you trying to tell me that the harp was

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mentioned in the Old Testament and that David was pretty

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figure in Darpa.

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Speaker 5: I couldn't help going full skitzo dude, I'm sorry.

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Speaker 4: Exactly.

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Speaker 15: Yeah, but I think with sanfre was saying something like

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God the Father was playing christ on like as a

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harp on the a song or something like that.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, I got it was kind of a beautiful typology,

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I guess.

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Speaker 15: Also, I was curious switching over to movie soundtracks.

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Speaker 4: Always a big fan of your movie analysis, and I think.

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Speaker 15: We have similar tastes in the sense that you even

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spoke about analog sense and John Carpenter and Twin Peaks

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and these kinds of soundtracks, eighties music, you know, eight soundtracks,

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all kinds of stuff like that Tangerine Dream, right, and

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sort of these you know, evangelists and sort of these

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electronic composers. You know, those can be kind of a

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gateway into watching certain films.

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Speaker 3: You know, sometimes I watch.

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Speaker 15: Movies based off of directors, are based off my favorite actors,

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et cetera, et cetera.

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Speaker 4: You get on the rabbo hole music is one way

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to approach it as well.

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Speaker 15: With that being said, I wanted to hear what your

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thoughts were on, you know, the Safti brothers and their

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collaboration with one on Tricks Point never Daniel Low Patton,

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which I don't even know if you're familiar with that artist.

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Speaker 4: So if you don't know, then you don't know.

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Speaker 3: But have you seen the Safti Brothers.

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Speaker 4: Films at least of you? What what?

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Speaker 5: What's what's their stuff?

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Speaker 15: So they did Uncut Gems, they did good Time, and

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then they just did one of the Safti Brothers did

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Marty Supreme. I'm kind of surprised you haven't heard of

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these these films.

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Speaker 5: Well, I mean I've heard of Uncut Gems. I just

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never have seen it.

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Speaker 4: Oh you should see it, man.

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Speaker 3: It's kind of like it's kind of a new it's

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kind of.

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Speaker 4: A new wave of film direction, kind of genius stuff. Okay,

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but anyways, if you haven't seen.

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Speaker 5: It, then it never mind.

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Speaker 10: Well no, I mean I appreciate the recommendation. I mean

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always like those film recommendations. So yeah, I should I

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should watch that if you think it's.

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Speaker 4: Good watching Gems. There's like some Jewish identity stuff in it, exactly.

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Speaker 15: Uh, but yeah, there's like some Jewish identity stuff there's

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but it's it's kind of surrealistic realism.

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Speaker 3: It's kind of next.

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Speaker 5: Level, all right, Like film. Appreciate that. Appreciate that. Call

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back in if you have more. I want to move

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on Cleave clavicular to antiquity. What's up man? He looks

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Max and over there.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, what's going on?

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Speaker 5: Really? How's it going good? What's on your mind?

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Speaker 1: Hey?

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Speaker 4: Check out that? Check out that clip I just tagged

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you in. That's like a kill shot of the debate.

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Speaker 3: There.

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Speaker 4: Somebody else clipped.

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Speaker 3: It and.

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Speaker 5: Okay, I see it. Let's see Uh yeah, is this

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the okay? Here we go instantly rewind this here?

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Speaker 10: Yeah, I was I was hoping that you would call

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in or somebody would kind of give me some uh,

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because I don't think we have time to watch this

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entire debate, but I would like to hit you know,

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the highlights and whatnot.

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Speaker 5: So let's play this clip here and.

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Speaker 3: Let me ask you this.

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Speaker 11: Actually, what is the pope obligated to do to issue

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an infallible statement?

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Speaker 14: What is he obligated to do?

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Speaker 11: And what is it obligated to do?

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Speaker 14: In in a Jordical sense, he does not obligated to

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do anything.

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Speaker 11: Okay, So do we see that in the first millennium church?

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Speaker 5: Yes?

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Speaker 11: Where show me actually?

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Speaker 14: Let me rephrase that. We don't see that in the

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first millium or the second millennium Church.

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Speaker 11: That can so you don't see hi Vatican one.

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Speaker 10: Then rum mccale will be like, yeah, that's where he

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won the debate. That's where Yasi won the debate and

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owned Sooran. I'm telling you man, they'll pull uh creative

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fiction writing out of the butt and and do like

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Tim Gordon is doing defending strangers things as not gay. No,

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but you see it's based and you see this, This

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point that Yas made was actually so deep and profound

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that it went over Cleve's head, It went over Alex

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Soren's head. The entire audience except for the Roman Catholics

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there're the only ones that got how profound what you

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thought was a contradiction in a conceding. The whole debate

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was actually sore and basically getting demolished and cooked.

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Speaker 3: It was pretty bad.

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Speaker 14: He did.

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Speaker 13: He did.

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Speaker 3: He said stuff like that.

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Speaker 4: About three or four times in the debated.

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Speaker 17: Even the Roman Catholics were catching on. They were like,

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wait a minute, actually he's actually doing terrible. They did

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a poll and after Roman Catholics said he lost.

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Speaker 5: Let's play this one more time.

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Speaker 11: Let me ask you this actually, what is the pope

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obligated to do? It's to issue an infallible statement.

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Speaker 14: What is he obligated to do?

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Speaker 11: And what is it obligated to do?

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Speaker 14: In in a joritical sense, he does not obligate to

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do anything. Okay, so do we see that in the

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first Millennium Church?

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Speaker 5: Yes?

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Speaker 11: Where so many?

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Speaker 14: Actually let me rephrase that. We don't see that in

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the first millium or the second Millennium Church.

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Speaker 5: That I love that silence there.

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Speaker 10: Even Alex was like, Alex made the same face that

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I met my face made when Tim Gordon said that

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God's glory is a creature, And I was like, are

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you are you sure you want to say that? I

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wanted to give I wanted to give Tim like a

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moment to be like are you just miss misstating?

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Speaker 5: Like do you want to rephrase that?

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Speaker 3: Man?

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Speaker 4: That was cobsmacked?

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Speaker 10: I didn't even know, Like, yeah, so you're having that.

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That's exactly my reaction in the Tim Gordon debate.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, I didn't, Like, I was why are you confessing?

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Like this is the whole debate? Like I didn't even

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cross my mind to think like, oh so I win.

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There's like there's no points that issue anymore exactly. I

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was sobs back. I was like, so, so you're saying

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Vatican too, did that happened? And I didn't even cross

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my mind to go there?

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Speaker 5: Right? But Yeah, yeah, great, great work.

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Speaker 10: I'm looking forward to seeing I've only seen the first

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two statements. I'm looking forward to seeing the rest of it. Cleve,

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what's your overall assessment? Did you watch the whole thing?

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Speaker 5: Yeah?

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Speaker 4: I was there the whole time.

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Speaker 18: I mean I think.

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Speaker 4: Elijah just seemed to kind of run the entire time.

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Speaker 17: After the when in his first rebuttal, the clip that

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I sent you, the first one that you watched, was

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his response to Alex's opening statement.

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Speaker 4: He said, none of that matters.

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Speaker 17: He's talking about Pope Pius's definition of papal supremacy.

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Speaker 4: He's like, none of that matters. Let's move on to

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my pre canned nonsense and.

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Speaker 5: Just see that clip. But why do you what does

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he mean none of that matters?

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Speaker 11: Like he's just like he was trying to reduce the

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papacy to like a set of propositions from pastor attorneys,

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And in my mind, I don't think you can do

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that because so much has happened since the schism, you

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have the Gregorian reforms, the Tridentine reforms, and then the

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Vatican One is just another reformation of the Roman Catholic Church.

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Speaker 4: It becomes the ultramontane Church.

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Speaker 11: All this stuff is like, if you're asking the question

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what is the Vatican one papacy, it's not just a

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few chapters from Pastor Atturnis.

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Speaker 4: It's Pope Pius the Ninth. That is the Vatican one papacy.

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Speaker 11: He's a king, he has an army, he conted his

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own currency and he put his face on the coins.

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He has a special chair where he has papal servants

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that pull him around.

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Speaker 4: Like that is relevant. That is a part of the

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Vatican one papacy. So for asking a question, is this

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00:30:24,440 --> 00:30:25,400
guy pope he is the.

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Speaker 11: Ninth the same as Pope Saint Leo the Great? Is

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he the same pope as Pope Gregory? The dialogue is

396
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like absolutely not. They would be sickened to see that

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the pope has turned into a king.

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Speaker 5: Yeah.

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Speaker 10: Absolutely, And did that ever come up with yasi the

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whole temporal supremacy?

401
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Speaker 5: Did you get into that just in passing?

402
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Speaker 11: I really just wanted to pin him on, Like, Okay,

403
00:30:48,359 --> 00:30:51,359
so this is what Vatican One teaches that the pope

404
00:30:51,480 --> 00:30:56,240
without restriction, he can pass infallible statements, and I wanted

405
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to expose that.

406
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Speaker 4: Really all he does is he plays the God card

407
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and say whatever he wants.

408
00:31:01,079 --> 00:31:04,920
Speaker 11: But it's not going to be bad because God. I

409
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think it's a little bit of a childish argument. I

410
00:31:07,319 --> 00:31:09,279
just that was like my whole point in the whole debate.

411
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So I think likely the rebuttals would probably be worth

412
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going over, and maybe the cross exams. The open discussion

413
00:31:16,519 --> 00:31:19,839
was a bit lame, but otherwise I think the rebuttals

414
00:31:19,880 --> 00:31:22,480
and the cross exams maybe, if you're interested, maybe worth

415
00:31:22,519 --> 00:31:22,920
going over.

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Speaker 10: Yeah, I will look to that. I mean, my wonder

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if this is where he said. Did he say that

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that doesn't matter early on.

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Speaker 5: Or was that later on?

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Speaker 4: That was like the first thing he said in his rebuttal.

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Speaker 10: Okay, I'm sad that's where I go. I've got the

422
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cursor right there, so that's perfect awesome. Yeah, thank you guys.

423
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I'm looking forward to analyzing a little bit more of this.

424
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I'm sure the clips channels out they were going to find.

425
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Speaker 5: The really meaty ju see deats already. Anything else from you, guys,

426
00:31:54,559 --> 00:31:55,799
I'm gonna play a little bit more of it.

427
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Speaker 4: No, that's pretty much it.

428
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Speaker 17: I mean that the Cross, like you said, was kind

429
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of boring. It was basically Yasse filibustering the entire time.

430
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Speaker 4: So yeah, Yass's Cross was boring.

431
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Speaker 11: And maybe I think I've made a few points maybe

432
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in mind, but yeah, the rebuttals I think would be

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worth going.

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Speaker 4: They're like, they're only.

435
00:32:12,759 --> 00:32:15,079
Speaker 5: Five minutes, the rebuttals at the very beginning here.

436
00:32:16,079 --> 00:32:18,400
Speaker 11: Yeah, so it was, uh, we each got an opening statement,

437
00:32:18,480 --> 00:32:20,519
we each got a five minute rebuttal, and then it goes.

438
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Speaker 4: Into the cross exams.

439
00:32:22,039 --> 00:32:24,480
Speaker 11: The Seventh at the beginning of the eighteen hundreds, issued

440
00:32:24,599 --> 00:32:27,880
one incyclical, pull Pious the Ninth in the mid eighteen hundreds,

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00:32:27,880 --> 00:32:31,160
who presided over Vatican One, issued thirty eight encyclicals, and

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Leo the Thirteenth, the successor of Pious the Ninth, issued

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seventy five in cyclicals. So pre Vatican one and post

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Vatican one we go from one incyclical to seventy five encyclicals.

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It's because the pope has become a legislator. He's no

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longer just a witness and protector.

447
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Speaker 7: Of the faith.

448
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Speaker 17: That is time.

449
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Speaker 11: That is time basically to conclude it was a change.

450
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Everybody agrees on this, only Elijah Yassi disagrees.

451
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Speaker 7: All right, thank you, Phyllis. Now at this point in time,

452
00:33:01,960 --> 00:33:05,599
we are going to go to our rebuttal rounds, so

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it will be five minutes and yep, mister yah See,

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it's on you, my man.

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Speaker 5: Thank you so much, real quick.

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00:33:18,480 --> 00:33:20,440
Speaker 10: One thought I had while I listened to the opening

457
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statements was it's an odd position that he's arguing for

458
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to argue for papal minimalism, that he doesn't do anything

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without the rest of the church. But also papal infallibility

460
00:33:36,799 --> 00:33:39,880
is in the first millennium. And as he was going

461
00:33:39,960 --> 00:33:42,839
through these papal quotes in his opening statement, yah see,

462
00:33:42,839 --> 00:33:45,759
I'm saying he's using these quotes to try to prove

463
00:33:47,559 --> 00:33:50,519
the thing that he's saying. Vatican One doesn't teach that

464
00:33:50,640 --> 00:33:53,920
there's this universal jurisdiction. He seemed to be arguing that

465
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the pope can act unilaterally, but he's also arguing that no,

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papal minimalism is the case, and the pope doesn't do

467
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things without the rest of the church. And his opening

468
00:34:05,519 --> 00:34:10,519
statement said Orthodox place a division between the pope and

469
00:34:10,599 --> 00:34:14,599
the church now we don't do that. The statement of

470
00:34:14,800 --> 00:34:17,719
Vatican One that the pope does not need the consent

471
00:34:17,840 --> 00:34:18,360
of the bishops.

472
00:34:18,400 --> 00:34:23,199
Speaker 5: That's in Vatican One. It's not us creating a division

473
00:34:23,239 --> 00:34:24,079
between the pope and the church.

474
00:34:27,480 --> 00:34:31,400
Speaker 10: So it's an odd position to pull out proof texts

475
00:34:31,440 --> 00:34:36,320
that appeared to try to prove universal jurisdiction and autocracy,

476
00:34:37,760 --> 00:34:40,480
but then turn around and say, but really, Vatican one

477
00:34:40,599 --> 00:34:46,880
isn't teaching universal jurisdiction and autocracy in some non synergistic way.

478
00:34:47,360 --> 00:34:50,159
Speaker 5: I thought that was very bizarre right away, Alex.

479
00:34:50,440 --> 00:34:53,800
Speaker 14: For that presentation, you talk about Pope Pius in ninth,

480
00:34:54,239 --> 00:34:59,000
who he was and whatnot. None of that matters, because

481
00:34:59,079 --> 00:35:03,320
what matters is what was actually dogmatized and defined. We

482
00:35:03,719 --> 00:35:04,079
don't have.

483
00:35:04,800 --> 00:35:07,840
Speaker 10: This is where it would be good to get him

484
00:35:08,639 --> 00:35:13,159
or any of these goofballs to give a clear epistemic

485
00:35:13,320 --> 00:35:18,239
principle by which we identify the infallible and non infallible.

486
00:35:18,440 --> 00:35:22,360
Because I've never heard that, and I've asked that to

487
00:35:22,760 --> 00:35:26,559
countless Roman Catholics and they never even understand the question

488
00:35:26,679 --> 00:35:29,239
because you ask them that and they start listing, oh.

489
00:35:29,199 --> 00:35:31,159
Speaker 5: This is execathedis No? I said, no, No, I'm not

490
00:35:31,239 --> 00:35:33,880
asking you what you think are the execa theater statements.

491
00:35:33,960 --> 00:35:37,239
I'm asking you for the epistemic principle that allows you

492
00:35:37,320 --> 00:35:41,360
to identify the infallible from the non infallible. Alex, you

493
00:35:41,400 --> 00:35:42,880
wanna say something, Yeah.

494
00:35:42,679 --> 00:35:44,440
Speaker 4: I think they have a few conundrums like that.

495
00:35:44,559 --> 00:35:47,800
Speaker 11: I was listening. I was reading Klaus Schatz his book

496
00:35:47,960 --> 00:35:51,639
on papal primacy, and he pointed out not the same point,

497
00:35:51,679 --> 00:35:55,440
but something similar similar, basically that if there are only

498
00:35:55,800 --> 00:36:00,800
a handful of irreformable statements by the pope, doesn't that

499
00:36:01,039 --> 00:36:05,559
kind of by definition open up every single other papal decision, Yeah,

500
00:36:05,840 --> 00:36:07,960
to scrutiny that you can reopen it now all the

501
00:36:08,039 --> 00:36:12,159
other ones are reformable. There's only like Elijah said, there

502
00:36:12,199 --> 00:36:14,360
are four. There are some people that say there are two.

503
00:36:14,679 --> 00:36:19,519
Some people say only one irreformable infallible statements. And by

504
00:36:19,599 --> 00:36:22,159
making that category, Klaus was saying, like this category was

505
00:36:22,199 --> 00:36:24,639
not known before, right, and they didn't really consider the

506
00:36:24,719 --> 00:36:25,559
downstream effects.

507
00:36:25,679 --> 00:36:27,760
Speaker 10: Yeah, when did anybody in the first thousand years of

508
00:36:27,760 --> 00:36:30,320
the church even remotely discuss anything like that?

509
00:36:31,880 --> 00:36:32,079
Speaker 5: Never?

510
00:36:32,400 --> 00:36:36,039
Speaker 10: Well, then our position is the one that's correct, because

511
00:36:36,400 --> 00:36:39,400
that means that that idea evolved so yeah.

512
00:36:39,400 --> 00:36:41,320
Speaker 11: And there's like a weird circularity to it too that

513
00:36:41,360 --> 00:36:42,880
I think you were pointing out, which is like, look,

514
00:36:42,920 --> 00:36:46,320
there are no conditions for the pope to speak infallibly.

515
00:36:46,440 --> 00:36:49,360
He can do it at his own discretion. But then also, well,

516
00:36:49,400 --> 00:36:52,199
he's never going to act without the bishops. Okay, but

517
00:36:52,239 --> 00:36:54,760
I'm asking you, how do you he's really he is

518
00:36:54,800 --> 00:36:56,519
assuming the thing in question.

519
00:36:56,400 --> 00:36:57,599
Speaker 5: Exactly becomes a circle.

520
00:36:57,800 --> 00:37:01,400
Speaker 10: Yeah, well, didn't some of his suppose it proofs at

521
00:37:01,440 --> 00:37:06,400
the beginning argue that the pope was acting without the bishops.

522
00:37:07,760 --> 00:37:10,079
Speaker 11: Yeah, it puts them in a very awkward situation to

523
00:37:10,119 --> 00:37:13,119
where he's saying people minimalism. Well, then now he's forced

524
00:37:13,159 --> 00:37:16,079
to talk about the pope being an autocrat. So it's

525
00:37:16,159 --> 00:37:19,360
just like, like, strategically, it's also just a bad does

526
00:37:19,400 --> 00:37:21,760
it Not only does it not make sense, it's also.

527
00:37:22,039 --> 00:37:23,360
Speaker 5: Very hard to do well.

528
00:37:23,440 --> 00:37:26,719
Speaker 10: And as Trent Horn showed that their canon law says

529
00:37:27,360 --> 00:37:30,840
it's infallible in binding when it's evidently manifest that it is.

530
00:37:30,960 --> 00:37:36,400
Speaker 5: So yeah, literally, yeah, that's it.

531
00:37:36,599 --> 00:37:39,639
Speaker 10: And that was the entire debate that I have with

532
00:37:39,760 --> 00:37:43,960
Trent over natural theology was about the epistemic principle. That's

533
00:37:44,039 --> 00:37:45,960
the closest that any of them have even gotten to,

534
00:37:46,079 --> 00:37:49,000
giving a kind of epistemic principle. And it's literally just well,

535
00:37:49,239 --> 00:37:52,159
when it's evident, when it's clear, Well that's the thing

536
00:37:52,239 --> 00:37:52,639
in question.

537
00:37:53,599 --> 00:37:55,960
Speaker 5: So when is it clear? How do we know by

538
00:37:56,039 --> 00:37:58,239
what standard? Who decides?

539
00:37:58,760 --> 00:38:01,880
Speaker 10: And again I think, you know, this whole system, if

540
00:38:01,920 --> 00:38:06,880
it was legit, why wouldn't they just have a clear

541
00:38:07,719 --> 00:38:10,079
you know, why wouldn't pup just say, look, I am

542
00:38:10,159 --> 00:38:13,519
sitting in the chair, I am now binding the entire church.

543
00:38:14,760 --> 00:38:22,480
Speaker 5: Infallibly to these forty eight statements and doctrines. Why not

544
00:38:24,519 --> 00:38:25,400
why not just do that.

545
00:38:27,719 --> 00:38:31,119
Speaker 4: Things they don't want to commit to xit amounts of statements.

546
00:38:31,199 --> 00:38:34,360
Speaker 5: Well, that's the thing, is like, yeah, that makes the system.

547
00:38:35,639 --> 00:38:38,880
Speaker 10: Much more rigid than it actually is, in the sense

548
00:38:38,960 --> 00:38:42,360
that the more open and ambiguous it is and elastic,

549
00:38:42,519 --> 00:38:47,239
it allows people to craft their own papal position, which

550
00:38:47,280 --> 00:38:48,559
is exactly what y'as's doing.

551
00:38:49,679 --> 00:38:51,719
Speaker 11: And there was a weird part in the open discussion

552
00:38:51,719 --> 00:38:56,559
where he was saying, late, yeah, these these doctrines are reformable,

553
00:38:56,599 --> 00:38:59,480
and he was talking about contraception, and I was like, okay, well,

554
00:38:59,719 --> 00:39:02,519
if it performable, that means at some point it's possible

555
00:39:02,760 --> 00:39:05,039
that contraception is no longer a sin. So you have

556
00:39:05,679 --> 00:39:07,719
a bunch of people who are sinning for like two

557
00:39:07,760 --> 00:39:10,679
thousands of years, and that suddenly nobody's sinning anymore for

558
00:39:10,760 --> 00:39:14,320
the exact same behavior. It leads to absurdities in like

559
00:39:14,800 --> 00:39:16,360
really silly positions.

560
00:39:16,559 --> 00:39:19,000
Speaker 10: It does exactly by the way, I have to say,

561
00:39:19,960 --> 00:39:25,199
Elijah looks really intelligent in that amazing library that is

562
00:39:25,320 --> 00:39:29,920
totally not CGI. It's funny because everybody used to joke

563
00:39:30,079 --> 00:39:32,679
that I tried to look smart and that like the

564
00:39:32,760 --> 00:39:35,920
books behind me are fake, and then like Elijah comesoni

565
00:39:36,000 --> 00:39:39,519
actually has a CGI fake, a literal fake, a literal

566
00:39:39,559 --> 00:39:43,199
fake bookshelf that he thinks looks well anyway. The other thing, too,

567
00:39:43,239 --> 00:39:46,360
is say, Alex she goes, did you think about this?

568
00:39:47,840 --> 00:39:50,079
There's a similar sort of conundrum that you when you

569
00:39:50,159 --> 00:39:53,599
were saying that, wouldn't this make any of the other

570
00:39:53,800 --> 00:39:57,159
statements than dubious. You made this appoint a minute ago

571
00:39:57,239 --> 00:40:01,639
about PayPal was paid lea binding and if there was

572
00:40:01,719 --> 00:40:06,920
only a handful or whatever, it would conceivably make all

573
00:40:06,960 --> 00:40:09,960
the other statements then just sort of like non binding

574
00:40:10,000 --> 00:40:11,800
and everybody can kind of do what they want there's

575
00:40:11,840 --> 00:40:15,079
a similar problem that I remember when I was a

576
00:40:15,159 --> 00:40:22,519
trad cat came up and I remember debating countless other

577
00:40:22,679 --> 00:40:25,559
trad cats and struggling with this issue, which is over saints.

578
00:40:26,320 --> 00:40:27,800
Speaker 5: So, in other words, if you get.

579
00:40:27,719 --> 00:40:29,960
Speaker 10: Into the SSPX circles and the set of a concist

580
00:40:30,039 --> 00:40:37,760
trad debates, they have very difficult times with canonizations in

581
00:40:37,840 --> 00:40:41,719
the question of whether canonizations are part of ordinary universal magisterium,

582
00:40:42,320 --> 00:40:45,119
because some people argue they're not, and they do that

583
00:40:45,400 --> 00:40:48,280
to try to get away from having to honor John

584
00:40:48,320 --> 00:40:50,440
Paul the second as a saint, because he did so

585
00:40:50,559 --> 00:40:56,440
many wild ecumenist synchrotous things and even blasphemous things. For example,

586
00:40:56,519 --> 00:40:59,559
he said made John the Baptists protect Islam, and you know,

587
00:40:59,639 --> 00:41:01,440
and so worth and so on, and even worse things

588
00:41:01,440 --> 00:41:03,159
than some of his homilies about Islam.

589
00:41:03,880 --> 00:41:06,039
Speaker 5: So well, how is he a saint? Well he's not.

590
00:41:06,920 --> 00:41:09,000
But then the problem immediately becomes evident.

591
00:41:09,079 --> 00:41:12,719
Speaker 10: Well, if if sainthood isn't in the romantholic system part

592
00:41:12,800 --> 00:41:16,800
of the universe ordinary magisterium, then you can conceivably debate

593
00:41:17,320 --> 00:41:19,599
and doubt all the saints, couldn't you? I mean, you

594
00:41:19,639 --> 00:41:22,239
could go back and start, Well, maybe afthenations, isn't in sane?

595
00:41:24,920 --> 00:41:27,679
Speaker 11: Yeah, it opens everything up to the question at that point.

596
00:41:27,920 --> 00:41:29,280
That's a good plus, an excellent point.

597
00:41:29,639 --> 00:41:31,400
Speaker 5: And also in the set of a conscious world.

598
00:41:31,599 --> 00:41:35,360
Speaker 10: The same principle applies with the acceptance of the papacy,

599
00:41:35,480 --> 00:41:38,800
because most set of a constiest, you know, end their

600
00:41:39,000 --> 00:41:43,119
lineage at Pious to twelve. But there were actually some

601
00:41:43,760 --> 00:41:46,639
knownists who would say no, actually, Pious the ninth was

602
00:41:46,840 --> 00:41:52,800
the last valid pope because after Vatican One, some of

603
00:41:52,880 --> 00:41:57,679
those other popes began to do early reforms of the liturgy,

604
00:41:57,679 --> 00:41:58,880
which actually prepared the way.

605
00:41:58,760 --> 00:41:59,440
Speaker 5: For Vatican Two.

606
00:42:00,239 --> 00:42:02,360
Speaker 10: So, I mean, I think that position is kind of crazy,

607
00:42:02,480 --> 00:42:05,159
but all those positions are crazy. But you can if

608
00:42:05,199 --> 00:42:07,599
you if you think about it, like, well, if I

609
00:42:07,679 --> 00:42:10,280
can doubt the last several pips back to pies of twelve,

610
00:42:10,360 --> 00:42:13,639
why can't I dealt back to piece to night. I mean,

611
00:42:14,280 --> 00:42:17,719
there's no it's a Pandora's box that gets open, as

612
00:42:17,719 --> 00:42:26,119
Alex is saying, kind of undoes the whole system. Yeah, exactly, Uh, Hercules,

613
00:42:26,159 --> 00:42:29,159
did you did you want to say something? You're feverishly

614
00:42:30,199 --> 00:42:31,360
emoting what's up?

615
00:42:31,800 --> 00:42:32,239
Speaker 5: I'm mute?

616
00:42:36,800 --> 00:42:37,119
Speaker 3: You hear me?

617
00:42:37,320 --> 00:42:40,760
Speaker 5: Yeah, what's on your mind. I'm good.

618
00:42:42,000 --> 00:42:42,360
Speaker 19: I'm good.

619
00:42:42,519 --> 00:42:45,639
Speaker 3: So the thing is is I'm critical or thucks.

620
00:42:45,800 --> 00:42:48,960
Speaker 19: And I've been hearing a lot of different positions, specifically

621
00:42:49,119 --> 00:42:52,000
on the topic of original sin. So I mean, I

622
00:42:52,039 --> 00:42:54,079
already have a position that I hold to, but I

623
00:42:54,199 --> 00:42:56,880
really wanted to know what you would think, like, because

624
00:42:56,880 --> 00:42:58,480
I know this is like going around, especially on the

625
00:42:58,519 --> 00:43:01,840
online space, about like our views on original sin, like

626
00:43:02,000 --> 00:43:04,119
all these like turns being thrown around, like you know,

627
00:43:04,239 --> 00:43:06,760
guilts and stuff like that, like what would you affirm?

628
00:43:07,000 --> 00:43:08,199
And then I could just tell you, like if you

629
00:43:08,239 --> 00:43:10,960
want to know what I affirmed something like that, And.

630
00:43:11,079 --> 00:43:14,679
Speaker 10: Yeah, there's no such thing as inherited guilt. Guilt by

631
00:43:14,719 --> 00:43:17,079
its very very by it's very nature, and according to

632
00:43:17,119 --> 00:43:21,280
the Book of James, is a specific individual action when

633
00:43:21,320 --> 00:43:26,880
you violate God's law. And there's countless quotes from Orthodox catechisms,

634
00:43:26,960 --> 00:43:31,400
Orthodox Saints, Church fathers that point out that when we

635
00:43:31,599 --> 00:43:35,079
say everyone is under adam or condemned an atom, it

636
00:43:35,239 --> 00:43:38,079
is not referring to the guilt of Adam. It's referring

637
00:43:38,119 --> 00:43:40,599
to the inheritance of the consequences of the.

638
00:43:40,639 --> 00:43:43,960
Speaker 19: Civil Yeah, I agree, Like we're not personally guilty in

639
00:43:44,000 --> 00:43:45,920
any sense, like that's completely condemned.

640
00:43:46,280 --> 00:43:48,360
Speaker 3: But like I agree, like we don't affirm any sort of.

641
00:43:48,360 --> 00:43:50,960
Speaker 19: Culpability, but we affirm like liabilities, so like we would

642
00:43:50,960 --> 00:43:55,039
have affirmed that we inherit the the consequences of his sense,

643
00:43:55,159 --> 00:44:00,440
like Saint Cyril speaks of guilts, and we also have Seenrette,

644
00:44:00,440 --> 00:44:02,440
Like we have multiples like church follows who speak upon

645
00:44:02,559 --> 00:44:05,000
guilts when the sense of like liability. But I don't

646
00:44:05,039 --> 00:44:07,360
think like any Orthodox would ever affirm any sort of

647
00:44:07,440 --> 00:44:09,320
like personal guilts. I would think that's absurd.

648
00:44:09,400 --> 00:44:11,400
Speaker 5: You know a lot of these people online are doing

649
00:44:11,480 --> 00:44:12,639
that and they're confused.

650
00:44:13,679 --> 00:44:17,119
Speaker 3: Huh do you think people online are firm like personal guilts?

651
00:44:17,320 --> 00:44:20,039
Speaker 5: Like, yeah, I've argued with many of these people for years.

652
00:44:21,280 --> 00:44:23,840
Speaker 19: Okay, that's interesting because I've never heard about anybody who

653
00:44:23,840 --> 00:44:24,719
afirms personal guilt.

654
00:44:24,719 --> 00:44:26,840
Speaker 10: But like, well, these are new converts who think that

655
00:44:27,079 --> 00:44:29,199
they've read Augustine a little bit, and then they think

656
00:44:29,320 --> 00:44:31,960
that we affirm Augustine's view and we don't.

657
00:44:33,239 --> 00:44:36,679
Speaker 3: What do you think Augustin affirms a sort of personal.

658
00:44:36,440 --> 00:44:37,679
Speaker 5: Go, yes he does.

659
00:44:37,760 --> 00:44:38,280
Speaker 13: He could.

660
00:44:38,559 --> 00:44:41,760
Speaker 5: He affirms masked them at a wait, could you elaborate

661
00:44:41,800 --> 00:44:42,239
on what that is?

662
00:44:42,280 --> 00:44:42,679
Speaker 3: Real quick?

663
00:44:42,920 --> 00:44:45,119
Speaker 5: That we are all a damned mass in Adam?

664
00:44:46,440 --> 00:44:48,360
Speaker 3: Well in what sense, right, because like we would have

665
00:44:48,400 --> 00:44:49,719
to understand like what he means.

666
00:44:49,639 --> 00:44:52,480
Speaker 5: By that if he means infants are damned.

667
00:44:54,079 --> 00:44:57,000
Speaker 19: Wait real quick, so this is going into unbaptized babies.

668
00:44:57,079 --> 00:44:59,119
Now do you think like unbaptized babies go to heaven?

669
00:45:00,239 --> 00:45:02,119
Speaker 5: No, I don't think they automatically go to heaven. We're

670
00:45:02,159 --> 00:45:02,639
not told.

671
00:45:02,679 --> 00:45:07,480
Speaker 10: But we're also told that, uh, they're they do not

672
00:45:07,719 --> 00:45:13,480
receive the condemnation of damnation because they haven't committed actual sins.

673
00:45:14,400 --> 00:45:14,559
Speaker 11: Yeah.

674
00:45:14,559 --> 00:45:17,400
Speaker 19: Wait, what do you define damnation asks? Because like I

675
00:45:17,440 --> 00:45:19,280
would just take that to be when we're speaking of

676
00:45:19,400 --> 00:45:19,960
like damnation.

677
00:45:20,400 --> 00:45:22,599
Speaker 10: You didn't even know what the mask I'm not a

678
00:45:22,639 --> 00:45:24,239
doctrine is, So why are you trying to debate me

679
00:45:24,280 --> 00:45:28,280
on Augustine? That's a fundamental teaching of his theology.

680
00:45:28,880 --> 00:45:30,880
Speaker 19: Yeah wait, I understand what you mean within like a

681
00:45:31,400 --> 00:45:33,960
normative like English terms, but when it comes like the

682
00:45:34,039 --> 00:45:35,960
line on like the best when it comes.

683
00:45:35,800 --> 00:45:38,679
Speaker 10: To okay, but that's a basic idea in his anthropology

684
00:45:38,760 --> 00:45:40,039
and his doctrine original sin.

685
00:45:40,199 --> 00:45:41,199
Speaker 5: Why are you interrupted me?

686
00:45:42,199 --> 00:45:43,159
Speaker 3: Oh? Sorry, sorry about that.

687
00:45:43,840 --> 00:45:46,320
Speaker 5: And the people online that I've been arguing with for

688
00:45:46,480 --> 00:45:50,920
years promote and affirm that. Yeah.

689
00:45:50,920 --> 00:45:52,719
Speaker 19: Wait, I don't see an issue with affirming that, Like

690
00:45:52,760 --> 00:45:54,679
you'd have to define what you mean by like damnation.

691
00:45:54,920 --> 00:45:58,199
Speaker 10: I just said he believed that unbaptized infants are damned.

692
00:45:59,320 --> 00:46:01,239
Speaker 3: Yeah, and what do you think that they suffer?

693
00:46:01,320 --> 00:46:03,280
Speaker 5: In his position, he believes that they suffer all the

694
00:46:03,280 --> 00:46:05,000
way up to Pope Gregory the Great believe that they

695
00:46:05,039 --> 00:46:05,840
suffered hell fire?

696
00:46:07,360 --> 00:46:10,840
Speaker 19: Do you think that Augustin affirms that are seeing Augustina

697
00:46:10,840 --> 00:46:12,360
affirms that unbaptized babies suffering?

698
00:46:12,440 --> 00:46:15,480
Speaker 10: You, Hannah, Well, he says that they have a lesser

699
00:46:16,000 --> 00:46:17,840
He doesn't say it's the same as people who are

700
00:46:17,960 --> 00:46:18,840
have personal guilt.

701
00:46:20,679 --> 00:46:21,639
Speaker 5: Well, what do you mean by that?

702
00:46:21,760 --> 00:46:23,960
Speaker 10: Because like, I don't know what he means by that,

703
00:46:24,039 --> 00:46:25,920
because I don't think his position is consistent.

704
00:46:27,280 --> 00:46:29,199
Speaker 3: So wait, what do you mean? So if you don't know,

705
00:46:29,239 --> 00:46:31,840
why do you keep asking me what I mean? Well,

706
00:46:31,880 --> 00:46:34,119
because I don't understand your position. If you're saying, like

707
00:46:34,599 --> 00:46:35,519
his position, can.

708
00:46:35,400 --> 00:46:37,320
Speaker 5: You tell me what the Orthodox position is because you

709
00:46:37,440 --> 00:46:38,039
know all about it?

710
00:46:39,239 --> 00:46:40,360
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, of course I can tell you.

711
00:46:40,599 --> 00:46:44,480
Speaker 19: Tell me what it is as defined same Peter mochilas Catechism, right.

712
00:46:44,599 --> 00:46:46,840
Speaker 10: We would It doesn't say that. No, you just are

713
00:46:47,000 --> 00:46:49,320
using the English terms. You just said that you don't

714
00:46:49,320 --> 00:46:51,800
know the Latin terms, So you're using these English translations

715
00:46:52,119 --> 00:46:54,159
which you think means the Latin view.

716
00:46:54,320 --> 00:46:54,960
Speaker 5: It doesn't mean that.

717
00:46:56,039 --> 00:46:58,639
Speaker 19: Wait, I don't think there's any distinction between me reading

718
00:46:58,679 --> 00:47:00,599
the normaty of like English term when it comes to

719
00:47:00,639 --> 00:47:02,599
see Augustin's view Peter Mohas.

720
00:47:02,800 --> 00:47:07,039
Speaker 10: You know, Peter Mohela's Catechism is written to a Western audience,

721
00:47:07,079 --> 00:47:11,039
and he uses terminology that sounds like Latin theological terminology,

722
00:47:11,199 --> 00:47:13,400
but it doesn't. So you're reading the baggage of Latin

723
00:47:13,440 --> 00:47:14,239
theology into it.

724
00:47:15,960 --> 00:47:19,800
Speaker 19: No, I'm not, because you're misunderstanding what I mean.

725
00:47:19,880 --> 00:47:22,320
Speaker 5: But like what you mean, you don't even know Augustin's position,

726
00:47:22,480 --> 00:47:24,239
So how are you in a position for your teaming? No,

727
00:47:24,280 --> 00:47:26,480
you don't. You didn't know what Master Ivona was. That's

728
00:47:26,519 --> 00:47:27,719
fundamental to his position.

729
00:47:28,400 --> 00:47:29,559
Speaker 3: I understand the position.

730
00:47:29,760 --> 00:47:31,719
Speaker 5: I know you don't. You didn't know what a basic

731
00:47:31,840 --> 00:47:34,199
idea in his teaching was. Does he believe that we're

732
00:47:34,239 --> 00:47:38,679
all an archetype in Adam, Yes, he does. He affirms

733
00:47:38,840 --> 00:47:41,159
explicitly in City of God that we are all in

734
00:47:41,280 --> 00:47:43,400
atom as in an archetype. So you don't know the

735
00:47:43,440 --> 00:47:46,719
basics of his view. Yes, I do know you don't

736
00:47:46,719 --> 00:47:48,360
because you would have known that in City of God

737
00:47:48,400 --> 00:47:49,639
he affirms. Have you read City of God?

738
00:47:50,960 --> 00:47:51,119
Speaker 3: Uh?

739
00:47:51,920 --> 00:47:53,480
Speaker 5: Some parts of it? Okay, have you read I've read

740
00:47:53,519 --> 00:47:55,280
the whole thing? Any affirms that?

741
00:47:56,679 --> 00:47:56,920
Speaker 4: Okay?

742
00:47:57,000 --> 00:47:59,559
Speaker 5: Does he affirm? Does the affirm that we are all

743
00:47:59,679 --> 00:48:01,159
in Adam as an archetype?

744
00:48:02,239 --> 00:48:03,639
Speaker 3: Wait? What do you mean by archetype?

745
00:48:04,159 --> 00:48:06,639
Speaker 5: So you don't even know his basic ideas of divine ideas?

746
00:48:07,239 --> 00:48:10,079
You don't know his you don't even know his basic ideas?

747
00:48:11,000 --> 00:48:13,679
Wait if you mean so, you're wasting my time. So

748
00:48:13,760 --> 00:48:16,800
you're not in there, you're not because you're not in

749
00:48:16,880 --> 00:48:19,320
a position to debate this. You haven't done the reading.

750
00:48:19,599 --> 00:48:23,440
Speaker 10: Yes, no, you haven't know what the Orthodox position is, like,

751
00:48:23,679 --> 00:48:25,480
you don't even know what Augustine's views are.

752
00:48:25,559 --> 00:48:26,960
Speaker 5: You're not in a position to tell me. I don't

753
00:48:26,960 --> 00:48:27,320
know what it is?

754
00:48:28,000 --> 00:48:30,079
Speaker 3: Intellectual like, you can't actually can keep I'm.

755
00:48:29,920 --> 00:48:32,800
Speaker 5: A pseudo intellectual and you have not read the reading? Yes,

756
00:48:33,440 --> 00:48:35,639
you think you just said that he doesn't teach. You

757
00:48:35,800 --> 00:48:38,320
just said that he You just said he doesn't teach,

758
00:48:38,880 --> 00:48:41,480
all right, So no, you're a heretic because you think

759
00:48:41,599 --> 00:48:44,000
that you just said massa dam nada and the Orthodox

760
00:48:44,079 --> 00:48:45,559
Church he doesn't teach that, You're an idiot.

761
00:48:45,679 --> 00:48:47,000
Speaker 3: Okay, yes it does.

762
00:48:47,880 --> 00:48:51,840
Speaker 5: The Orthodox Church teaches mass dam nada from Augustine. Hold on,

763
00:48:52,199 --> 00:48:53,920
did you did you just say that? You didn't you

764
00:48:53,960 --> 00:48:58,320
didn't know what it was. Yes? Are we are we

765
00:48:58,400 --> 00:49:01,039
all in Adam as an archetype? Are we all in

766
00:49:01,159 --> 00:49:02,960
an Adam as an archetype?

767
00:49:03,800 --> 00:49:03,840
Speaker 3: No?

768
00:49:03,960 --> 00:49:04,159
Speaker 17: I'm not.

769
00:49:04,239 --> 00:49:08,559
Speaker 5: You don't know his teaching. You just said he doesn't

770
00:49:08,599 --> 00:49:11,280
teach that, and he does in City of God. If

771
00:49:11,320 --> 00:49:14,519
you're asking, does he teach that in the City of God.

772
00:49:16,239 --> 00:49:16,840
Speaker 4: We sit in Adam?

773
00:49:16,880 --> 00:49:17,039
Speaker 13: Sure?

774
00:49:17,239 --> 00:49:17,599
Speaker 19: I can pause?

775
00:49:18,119 --> 00:49:20,360
Speaker 5: Does he teach that we are in Adam as in

776
00:49:20,440 --> 00:49:24,599
an archetype and that's why we have original guilt? Does

777
00:49:24,679 --> 00:49:29,119
he teach that? So this is what happens when you're

778
00:49:29,159 --> 00:49:31,199
twenty and you don't know anything about theology and you

779
00:49:31,239 --> 00:49:33,920
want to come to debate people who've read thousands of

780
00:49:33,960 --> 00:49:39,760
pages of Saint Augustine and you don't know the basic terminology. Yeah,

781
00:49:39,760 --> 00:49:41,000
I don't know how you deal with it.

782
00:49:41,119 --> 00:49:44,760
Speaker 11: And clearly it's unfamiliar with like the basic terms and

783
00:49:44,960 --> 00:49:48,280
like this, just like it's total hub.

784
00:49:49,800 --> 00:49:52,000
Speaker 4: And they're just unfamiliar with the reading and they think

785
00:49:52,039 --> 00:49:52,800
they can keep up.

786
00:49:52,800 --> 00:49:54,880
Speaker 10: With like and they why does he ask me to

787
00:49:55,000 --> 00:49:57,800
define every term? If he's done the reading, he would

788
00:49:57,880 --> 00:49:58,800
know what those terms mean.

789
00:49:59,559 --> 00:50:02,440
Speaker 4: They clear not up to date on the conversation.

790
00:50:04,880 --> 00:50:08,320
Speaker 14: To defend the popes in his person or what he

791
00:50:08,440 --> 00:50:10,760
thought or you know, whether he was he thought this,

792
00:50:10,880 --> 00:50:13,480
he was as king or whatever. What did Vatican one

793
00:50:13,800 --> 00:50:15,960
actually define is the court?

794
00:50:16,239 --> 00:50:18,039
Speaker 10: By the way, for those that are interested, I did

795
00:50:18,079 --> 00:50:20,639
a lecture through the entirety of the City of God.

796
00:50:21,400 --> 00:50:23,880
You can watch my lectures going through the entire book,

797
00:50:24,039 --> 00:50:26,760
and I guarantee you that man has not read the

798
00:50:26,960 --> 00:50:28,719
entire thousand page City of God.

799
00:50:30,000 --> 00:50:32,159
Speaker 5: I lectured through the whole thing, so you know I have.

800
00:50:33,280 --> 00:50:35,239
It's one of the things that made me leave Protestantism

801
00:50:35,320 --> 00:50:40,280
back when I was twenty one. And I go through

802
00:50:40,320 --> 00:50:44,039
the sections that talk about mass dam Nauda and the section.

803
00:50:43,840 --> 00:50:45,840
Speaker 10: Where he talks about we are all in Adam as

804
00:50:45,920 --> 00:50:51,199
in an archetype. This is books one through ten of

805
00:50:51,280 --> 00:51:01,039
City of God right here. I mean, just to act

806
00:51:01,159 --> 00:51:03,639
that way with people who have been reading this stuff

807
00:51:03,840 --> 00:51:09,920
for twenty five years twenty six now, it's just really annoying.

808
00:51:10,119 --> 00:51:10,679
Speaker 5: And it's.

809
00:51:12,920 --> 00:51:15,960
Speaker 10: If you if I can immediately tell, it's the same

810
00:51:16,000 --> 00:51:19,880
with philosophy, right, or anything that you've done for twenty

811
00:51:19,960 --> 00:51:24,639
five years. When you hear people not familiar with terms,

812
00:51:25,119 --> 00:51:29,280
you can identify where they are in their reading or

813
00:51:29,320 --> 00:51:32,159
their understanding, and you know right away, okay, they're not

814
00:51:32,280 --> 00:51:33,440
familiar with the basics.

815
00:51:37,239 --> 00:51:38,239
Speaker 5: So here is part one.

816
00:51:38,400 --> 00:51:40,199
Speaker 10: I think Part two does the second half the City

817
00:51:40,239 --> 00:51:43,599
of God, and I read City of God twenty.

818
00:51:43,440 --> 00:51:45,440
Speaker 5: Five years ago. I have it all marked up over here.

819
00:51:46,760 --> 00:51:48,599
If we want, I can get I can get it out,

820
00:51:48,639 --> 00:51:50,280
and we can find the actual page where it talks

821
00:51:50,280 --> 00:51:51,960
about masks. I'm not. And you knowice he changed his

822
00:51:52,039 --> 00:51:54,480
position to say, no, actually I do believe in mass

823
00:51:54,519 --> 00:51:58,360
I'm not. And then he's what does it mean that

824
00:51:58,480 --> 00:51:59,920
we're in Adam as an archetype.

825
00:52:00,000 --> 00:52:02,280
Speaker 10: Well, Augustine was influenced by Neoplatonism, and so if you

826
00:52:02,320 --> 00:52:05,440
read City on the Trinity, there's sections of on the

827
00:52:05,480 --> 00:52:08,639
Trinity which are basically just even copy paste from Plotinus's

828
00:52:08,679 --> 00:52:12,400
and Neods, and Augustine was pretty open about his influence

829
00:52:12,440 --> 00:52:13,360
from Neoplatonism.

830
00:52:14,559 --> 00:52:17,119
Speaker 5: So what he does is that he uses that archetype

831
00:52:17,199 --> 00:52:20,119
theology or philosophy. I should say to argue that the

832
00:52:20,239 --> 00:52:24,280
reason that Romans five holds us guilty in Adam is

833
00:52:24,440 --> 00:52:28,159
because we are in him as in an archetype. That's

834
00:52:28,239 --> 00:52:31,000
his terminology, which you should be familiar with if you

835
00:52:31,119 --> 00:52:33,760
know this topic and you've read this stuff. I've read

836
00:52:33,840 --> 00:52:38,079
all of the Antidonatus works, I've read all of the

837
00:52:38,119 --> 00:52:41,360
anti Pallagian works. I've read all of City of God,

838
00:52:42,599 --> 00:52:45,480
I have them all marked up. I've read almost all

839
00:52:45,519 --> 00:52:46,239
of On the Trinity.

840
00:52:47,000 --> 00:52:49,559
Speaker 10: I took Augustine's name in two thousand and one when

841
00:52:49,559 --> 00:52:53,039
I became a Roman Catholic because I read him fervently

842
00:52:54,079 --> 00:52:56,880
for all of my twenties, and Aquinas a lot to it.

843
00:52:56,880 --> 00:52:58,920
Speaker 5: I don't read everything in quantas. I'm not saying I've

844
00:52:58,920 --> 00:53:01,000
read everything from Augustin plenty of works that I haven't

845
00:53:01,000 --> 00:53:03,679
got to. But I know this very well.

846
00:53:04,679 --> 00:53:07,159
Speaker 10: So when someone comes and tries to argue with me,

847
00:53:07,639 --> 00:53:10,239
and I can immediately tell that they don't know what

848
00:53:10,280 --> 00:53:14,039
they're talking about. They're getting tripped up, and they keep

849
00:53:14,119 --> 00:53:14,760
interrupting me.

850
00:53:15,360 --> 00:53:18,119
Speaker 5: You're not in the position to debate and argue with

851
00:53:18,239 --> 00:53:21,440
me at that level. Well, he's mean old Lord. You

852
00:53:21,480 --> 00:53:22,559
can't handle it. He can't do it.

853
00:53:23,760 --> 00:53:26,960
Speaker 10: It's you that has the issue. It's the problem is

854
00:53:27,039 --> 00:53:31,239
on your side. Yeah, sometimes I lose my patience, but

855
00:53:31,400 --> 00:53:33,559
that's not the main issue here. The main issue is

856
00:53:33,639 --> 00:53:36,480
not patients. The main issue is I know what I'm

857
00:53:36,519 --> 00:53:38,880
talking about with this, and I'm not even saying I'm

858
00:53:38,920 --> 00:53:40,039
some Augustine scholar.

859
00:53:40,960 --> 00:53:42,320
Speaker 5: I don't really care that much.

860
00:53:42,239 --> 00:53:45,880
Speaker 10: About Augustine's views anymore. I cared a lot in my twenties,

861
00:53:46,440 --> 00:53:48,159
but I don't really care that much anymore. But I

862
00:53:48,239 --> 00:53:51,079
know enough about it to say what his position is.

863
00:53:51,159 --> 00:54:00,079
And also you can go to my talk here, and

864
00:54:00,159 --> 00:54:06,920
everybody needs to read the Mayandorf essay on where Augusta

865
00:54:06,960 --> 00:54:12,079
made a mistake because he didn't know Greek in Romans five,

866
00:54:12,679 --> 00:54:14,920
because that's a big part of the issue here.

867
00:54:17,360 --> 00:54:21,039
Speaker 11: Something that helped me also with Augustin was in the

868
00:54:22,280 --> 00:54:23,920
mist to go Gie. There's a version that has an

869
00:54:23,960 --> 00:54:29,119
introduction by Joe Farrell. Yeah, and the introduction he talks

870
00:54:29,159 --> 00:54:30,880
about like all the parallels, and he goes through all

871
00:54:30,880 --> 00:54:34,280
the parallels between the august Indian view and neo Platonism

872
00:54:34,800 --> 00:54:39,440
and shock, honestly, it's virtually identical.

873
00:54:39,039 --> 00:54:39,719
Speaker 5: Yes it is.

874
00:54:39,840 --> 00:54:44,519
Speaker 10: And also the Neoplatonic archetypal view of how he gets

875
00:54:44,559 --> 00:54:47,440
his original sin doctrine. That's dealt with in a lot

876
00:54:47,559 --> 00:54:51,119
more detail in Pharrell's book Free Choice in Saint Maximus.

877
00:54:51,199 --> 00:54:54,519
And so another book that everybody in this domain trying

878
00:54:54,559 --> 00:54:57,280
to argue this position that they don't understand, is that

879
00:54:57,320 --> 00:55:00,639
they should read Free Choice in Saint Maximus. But Myandorf's

880
00:55:00,719 --> 00:55:05,280
essay is also key here because he shows a basic

881
00:55:05,400 --> 00:55:08,719
mistake that Augustine made, and Augustine admits in book three

882
00:55:08,760 --> 00:55:10,400
of On the Trinity that he can't read the Greek.

883
00:55:14,480 --> 00:55:17,800
Speaker 5: No, that's not it. This is it right here.

884
00:55:19,280 --> 00:55:22,400
Speaker 10: Now, I think this is a uniate site, but this

885
00:55:22,800 --> 00:55:30,719
is from Myandorf and so here is the article, and

886
00:55:30,760 --> 00:55:32,400
I'll put it in the chat. Everybody should read that.

887
00:55:32,519 --> 00:55:36,159
That will help people understand exactly the roots of the

888
00:55:36,239 --> 00:55:42,119
Augustinian mistake. And there is a difference between Augustine's position

889
00:55:42,239 --> 00:55:45,960
on this and the rest of the Eastern fathers. It's

890
00:55:46,000 --> 00:55:49,400
just a fact, and even some of the Latin fathers

891
00:55:49,440 --> 00:55:55,360
before him. So and by the way, all of these people,

892
00:55:56,079 --> 00:55:59,079
they don't have any degree in any topic or subject

893
00:55:59,159 --> 00:56:02,360
related to any of this, and I'm not arguing that

894
00:56:02,480 --> 00:56:07,320
credentialism is all that matters. But think about any other field.

895
00:56:08,039 --> 00:56:12,239
Doesn't some degree of showing that you have proficiency. Isn't

896
00:56:12,280 --> 00:56:15,440
that what's necessary in pretty much every other field. But

897
00:56:15,559 --> 00:56:19,000
for some reason in this domain, whether it's philosophy or

898
00:56:19,039 --> 00:56:24,280
whether it's you know, religion, theology, people just assume, no,

899
00:56:24,360 --> 00:56:25,119
I don't need anything.

900
00:56:26,000 --> 00:56:27,480
Speaker 5: I am sufficient unto myself.

901
00:56:27,679 --> 00:56:32,239
Speaker 10: I don't need any training under any mentors or authorities

902
00:56:32,519 --> 00:56:33,559
or anybody.

903
00:56:33,719 --> 00:56:36,880
Speaker 5: I can can solve these issues. I can do this

904
00:56:38,320 --> 00:56:42,199
and you can't. There's none of that. That is a

905
00:56:42,320 --> 00:56:47,079
thoroughly Protestant modern attitude. I'm not saying that you can't

906
00:56:47,239 --> 00:56:49,360
study on your own, or that you can't learn things

907
00:56:49,440 --> 00:56:49,880
on your own.

908
00:56:50,440 --> 00:56:54,039
Speaker 10: I'm saying it's an issue of missing the point that

909
00:56:54,800 --> 00:56:59,559
in all recorded history, all people in all fields had

910
00:56:59,719 --> 00:57:06,400
menurs and went through a process of qualification to speak

911
00:57:06,440 --> 00:57:12,760
on topics, to debate topics. And today, because of chat,

912
00:57:12,840 --> 00:57:16,679
GBT and all this nonsense, that everybody thinks they're an expert.

913
00:57:18,519 --> 00:57:21,440
I mean, imagine alex is a lawyer. Imagine somebody's saying, yeah,

914
00:57:21,440 --> 00:57:23,519
I don't need to go to law school. I've got

915
00:57:23,679 --> 00:57:27,199
five law books that I bought at the thrift store.

916
00:57:27,920 --> 00:57:30,639
I've been reading them extensively, and I don't need your

917
00:57:30,719 --> 00:57:33,960
stupid law schools and your law classes. I'll just show

918
00:57:34,039 --> 00:57:35,920
up and I'll do them. I'll do it my own myself,

919
00:57:36,559 --> 00:57:37,039
by myself.

920
00:57:37,199 --> 00:57:39,079
Speaker 11: People with law school that didn't get it, So I

921
00:57:40,360 --> 00:57:41,679
thought that you think you'd be able to do it

922
00:57:41,760 --> 00:57:44,880
on your own. Is this ridiculous. But on that point

923
00:57:44,920 --> 00:57:48,039
of like just the basic terminology that people use. I

924
00:57:48,079 --> 00:57:49,239
think I was talking about.

925
00:57:49,039 --> 00:57:51,079
Speaker 4: This with Ubi the other day.

926
00:57:51,119 --> 00:57:52,840
Speaker 11: He actually he sent me a text because he realized

927
00:57:52,880 --> 00:57:55,679
I was debating, Yeah, who was in that same crew

928
00:57:55,800 --> 00:57:58,119
with Ibarra and Lofta and whatnot.

929
00:57:58,280 --> 00:57:59,840
Speaker 4: So we just went back and forth.

930
00:58:00,239 --> 00:58:04,440
Speaker 11: But I told him, in law school, we have thesocratic method, right,

931
00:58:04,480 --> 00:58:06,880
so the students get cold called and you can just

932
00:58:07,000 --> 00:58:09,920
tell based on the questions that people are asking, like

933
00:58:10,039 --> 00:58:12,400
whether or not they did exactly the reading that night.

934
00:58:12,440 --> 00:58:14,400
Speaker 4: It's like, oh, this guy has no idea what we're.

935
00:58:14,239 --> 00:58:15,599
Speaker 5: Talking about here exactly.

936
00:58:15,599 --> 00:58:18,119
Speaker 10: And it's the same that I can do in a

937
00:58:18,159 --> 00:58:22,559
lot of this domain. When I hear people, for example,

938
00:58:22,559 --> 00:58:24,400
when you're debating a lot of atheists, a lot of

939
00:58:24,480 --> 00:58:28,199
you know, people that reread it. They think they're proficient,

940
00:58:28,239 --> 00:58:32,400
they know all this stuff. And if you've gone to

941
00:58:33,039 --> 00:58:35,159
you know, undergrad grad school and then philosophy, like you

942
00:58:35,239 --> 00:58:37,639
can tell really quickly when somebody has no clue what

943
00:58:37,719 --> 00:58:38,280
they're talking about.

944
00:58:38,280 --> 00:58:39,880
Speaker 5: Anyway, let's say some more of this.

945
00:58:40,519 --> 00:58:45,400
Speaker 14: The text of Vatican One is what we're defending. Pastor eturnos,

946
00:58:45,480 --> 00:58:48,880
the four chapters. Chapter three in chapter four is really

947
00:58:48,920 --> 00:58:52,760
what we're discussing today. Chapter three on universal jurisdiction, Chapter

948
00:58:52,880 --> 00:58:56,400
four on people in fallibility. And you see Alex going

949
00:58:56,440 --> 00:58:56,800
and all.

950
00:58:57,559 --> 00:58:59,199
Speaker 5: By the way, he seems to not be aware that

951
00:59:00,599 --> 00:59:03,280
there are other elements of Vatican One. It's not just

952
00:59:03,360 --> 00:59:07,679
pastoryturn us. Well, yeah, he does he not know that?

953
00:59:08,079 --> 00:59:10,400
Does he think that? It's just I think he does,

954
00:59:10,480 --> 00:59:12,079
like he doesn't actually know what he's defending.

955
00:59:12,440 --> 00:59:14,679
Speaker 14: His place is because he doesn't want to stick to

956
00:59:14,760 --> 00:59:17,239
the actual text. So let's stick to the actual text.

957
00:59:17,280 --> 00:59:18,920
He quoted Gaser. We're going to get intogether if he

958
00:59:18,920 --> 00:59:20,760
wants to get into gas. I wasn't planning on having

959
00:59:20,840 --> 00:59:23,280
this debate on the minimalist. As you can see, I

960
00:59:23,639 --> 00:59:26,880
had the first millennium proofs of Vatican One. As if

961
00:59:27,000 --> 00:59:30,000
I was defending it as a maximalist right, But that's fine,

962
00:59:30,039 --> 00:59:30,519
let's go with that.

963
00:59:30,639 --> 00:59:34,280
Speaker 10: So he just recognized the point that I made about

964
00:59:34,320 --> 00:59:38,280
the contradiction in papal minimalism for right now for the

965
00:59:38,440 --> 00:59:41,840
Orthodox audience. But he's going to defend papal maximalism in the.

966
00:59:41,840 --> 00:59:45,519
Speaker 5: First safe and he recognized that. Even he recognized my

967
00:59:45,559 --> 00:59:48,280
first thought, he brought up Chietti.

968
00:59:49,039 --> 00:59:49,960
Speaker 11: Uh directory.

969
00:59:50,519 --> 00:59:52,760
Speaker 14: There's a there's a document called the Directory for the

970
00:59:52,800 --> 00:59:56,519
Application of Principles and Norms on Ecumenism that quotes on

971
00:59:56,679 --> 00:59:59,519
such documents as Schietti, and it says all statements or

972
00:59:59,559 --> 01:00:02,599
reports of dialogue commissions are submitted to the churches concerned

973
01:00:02,679 --> 01:00:07,159
for assessment. Statements produced by dialogue commissions have intrinsic weight

974
01:00:07,320 --> 01:00:10,639
because of the competence and status of their authors. They

975
01:00:10,679 --> 01:00:14,679
have weight because there's scholars there, not because it's binding

976
01:00:14,760 --> 01:00:15,280
on Catholics.

977
01:00:15,320 --> 01:00:17,159
Speaker 10: And here's the next thing, of course, as if anybody

978
01:00:17,320 --> 01:00:20,360
was even arguing that Kiyat is some sort of dogmatic document,

979
01:00:20,400 --> 01:00:24,239
it doesn't matter. It's according to Leo. It expresses his mind.

980
01:00:25,679 --> 01:00:29,320
So that tells us that Leo agrees with it. We're

981
01:00:29,320 --> 01:00:31,400
not concerned about all. I don't do Is it an

982
01:00:31,440 --> 01:00:33,880
ex cathed No, of course, nobody's ever even argued that

983
01:00:34,440 --> 01:00:35,760
it's an exca theater document.

984
01:00:36,599 --> 01:00:39,519
Speaker 14: They are, not, however, binding on the Catholic Church until

985
01:00:39,559 --> 01:00:42,599
they have been approved by the appropriate ecclesiastical authorities.

986
01:00:43,320 --> 01:00:46,440
Speaker 10: So please, So in other words, nothing is binding until

987
01:00:46,480 --> 01:00:51,000
it's approved. And what exactly and when is that happening, Well,

988
01:00:51,039 --> 01:00:52,599
we don't know exactly.

989
01:00:53,079 --> 01:00:57,079
Speaker 14: The Chietti stuff. It's not binding on Catholics according to

990
01:00:57,199 --> 01:01:00,480
US Catholics until the Pope and the bishops have approved

991
01:01:00,679 --> 01:01:03,400
the document, which has not happened yet.

992
01:01:03,760 --> 01:01:06,199
Speaker 5: Conn he said that he agrees with it.

993
01:01:06,480 --> 01:01:09,880
Speaker 10: So so what's the the way this works is it's

994
01:01:10,039 --> 01:01:14,920
never going to be approved until there's some Leo saying

995
01:01:15,280 --> 01:01:18,039
I absolutely approve and you must accept it. That's the

996
01:01:18,079 --> 01:01:21,079
only thing that they would maybe concede.

997
01:01:20,679 --> 01:01:25,000
Speaker 14: To, which, of course that's never gonna happen to a

998
01:01:25,079 --> 01:01:26,280
lot of Orthobros online.

999
01:01:27,400 --> 01:01:29,599
Speaker 5: He mentioned that's a strong man. Though nobody has ever

1000
01:01:29,760 --> 01:01:32,880
argued that Kiyati is a binding document.

1001
01:01:33,920 --> 01:01:36,320
Speaker 11: I argued it as an authority, and I'm glad that

1002
01:01:36,400 --> 01:01:38,360
he like kind of conceded that, Like, yeah, it's a

1003
01:01:38,400 --> 01:01:40,559
lot of like top Roman Catholic scholars.

1004
01:01:40,599 --> 01:01:42,360
Speaker 4: That's the kind of proof that I cited it.

1005
01:01:42,440 --> 01:01:46,880
Speaker 11: We're not as something binding discussion, and he's like, oh, yeah,

1006
01:01:46,960 --> 01:01:48,800
I know that it has like a lot of scholars

1007
01:01:49,360 --> 01:01:51,000
behind it, like yeah.

1008
01:01:50,920 --> 01:01:53,840
Speaker 10: But he just says, Ortho bros. Think it's binding. No, Ortho, bro,

1009
01:01:54,119 --> 01:01:56,719
I haven't seen any Orthover argue that it's binding. I mean,

1010
01:01:56,719 --> 01:01:58,480
there could have been one arguing in that, But that's.

1011
01:01:58,840 --> 01:02:05,519
Speaker 14: So what NICEA Canon six talks about giving the prerogative

1012
01:02:05,639 --> 01:02:12,039
to to what's to Alexandria and giving the prerogative to

1013
01:02:16,039 --> 01:02:19,079
called the Antioch and whatnot. Well, here's Pope Saint Boniface.

1014
01:02:19,159 --> 01:02:20,800
This is a pope in both of our churches. This

1015
01:02:20,880 --> 01:02:23,760
is how he interprets Nicia and that Canon six, the

1016
01:02:23,880 --> 01:02:26,559
universal ordering of the Church at its birth took its

1017
01:02:26,599 --> 01:02:31,280
origin from the office of Blessed Peter, divine institution in

1018
01:02:31,360 --> 01:02:34,079
which has found both its directing power and its supreme

1019
01:02:34,159 --> 01:02:37,400
authority from him as from a source at the time

1020
01:02:37,519 --> 01:02:38,880
when our religion was in stage.

1021
01:02:39,159 --> 01:02:43,239
Speaker 10: I believe Peter is a divine authority and foundation stone

1022
01:02:43,280 --> 01:02:47,719
and source, but that doesn't mean that every successor is

1023
01:02:47,840 --> 01:02:50,519
that and has all those same powers as Peter, and

1024
01:02:50,679 --> 01:02:52,559
that it would never fail right, that's.

1025
01:02:52,400 --> 01:02:55,239
Speaker 5: The thing that they use terms.

1026
01:02:55,519 --> 01:02:57,760
Speaker 10: Like when I debated Tim Gordon and he said, did

1027
01:02:57,880 --> 01:03:02,039
Jesus establish the papacy? Well, Tim, we both agree Jesus

1028
01:03:02,159 --> 01:03:05,280
established the papacy, But what that means and the extent

1029
01:03:05,400 --> 01:03:08,519
of that power is the thing in question, not did Jesus?

1030
01:03:08,960 --> 01:03:13,760
Did the divinity establish the papacy? If you remember Lofton

1031
01:03:13,840 --> 01:03:16,960
used to make this argument, he would say, anything divinely

1032
01:03:17,159 --> 01:03:22,440
established can never fail, which uh oh, God established the

1033
01:03:22,519 --> 01:03:23,519
nation state of Israel.

1034
01:03:23,760 --> 01:03:26,639
Speaker 5: Uh oh, it failed. So that's a non sequitor.

1035
01:03:27,000 --> 01:03:31,039
Speaker 10: Just because divinity establishes something does not mean it cannot fail.

1036
01:03:31,079 --> 01:03:35,679
And also every sea and bishop has a divine foundation

1037
01:03:36,280 --> 01:03:37,000
and can fail.

1038
01:03:38,079 --> 01:03:41,239
Speaker 14: Both all churches receive their call and order. This much

1039
01:03:41,400 --> 01:03:44,800
is shown by the injunctions of the Council of Nicea.

1040
01:03:45,079 --> 01:03:48,480
Speaker 5: I like how there's a chair sitting in a chair

1041
01:03:48,719 --> 01:03:49,519
in his background.

1042
01:03:52,679 --> 01:03:54,760
Speaker 4: I didn't even realize that. Well, that's hilarious.

1043
01:03:55,239 --> 01:04:01,480
Speaker 10: So Elijah Yassi is definitely not using a an Ai background.

1044
01:04:01,559 --> 01:04:06,440
It's a real Oxford. He's actually debating you from the

1045
01:04:06,639 --> 01:04:10,119
archives of the Vatican. It's just that the papal chair.

1046
01:04:10,760 --> 01:04:13,480
It's like meta, dude, the papal chair the papal throne

1047
01:04:13,599 --> 01:04:17,199
actually has a throne that sits in the throne, so

1048
01:04:17,320 --> 01:04:22,559
it's doubly papal. When when Elijah sits in his throne

1049
01:04:22,639 --> 01:04:27,920
throne that's the double ex cathedral throne.

1050
01:04:28,199 --> 01:04:32,639
Speaker 14: Venture to make a decree in his regard, regard recognizing

1051
01:04:32,760 --> 01:04:36,079
that nothing could be added to his dignity. In fact,

1052
01:04:36,239 --> 01:04:38,960
it knew that all had been assigned to him by

1053
01:04:39,039 --> 01:04:42,079
the word of the Lord divine institution. So it is

1054
01:04:42,239 --> 01:04:44,599
clear that this church is to all churches through.

1055
01:04:44,760 --> 01:04:47,360
Speaker 10: Again, I mean, this was something that Lofton. It's a

1056
01:04:47,440 --> 01:04:51,480
divine institution. The divine institution can't fail. I actually, and

1057
01:04:51,599 --> 01:04:53,840
he used to do if. I recall quite a few

1058
01:04:53,880 --> 01:04:56,440
podcasts with lost and so he's really just loft He's

1059
01:04:56,480 --> 01:04:58,599
really just lost in is actually better. He's actually just

1060
01:04:58,679 --> 01:05:03,119
copying and pasting this old Lofton argument, which actually UBI

1061
01:05:03,239 --> 01:05:05,599
responded to this like five years ago.

1062
01:05:06,599 --> 01:05:07,800
Speaker 4: UBI destroyed him, dude.

1063
01:05:08,519 --> 01:05:12,440
Speaker 10: But I mean the argument was divine institution. How could

1064
01:05:12,440 --> 01:05:15,360
it fail if it's a divine institution. Well, again, even

1065
01:05:15,440 --> 01:05:19,440
on the Roman Catholic scheme, they believe that the Bishop

1066
01:05:19,480 --> 01:05:23,079
of Antioch, the Patriarch of Constantinople, all of those have

1067
01:05:23,639 --> 01:05:25,360
divine founding an.

1068
01:05:25,320 --> 01:05:28,679
Speaker 5: Institution behind them, and yet they believe that they fail.

1069
01:05:30,039 --> 01:05:32,039
Speaker 11: This gives me confidence that I made the right argument,

1070
01:05:32,159 --> 01:05:34,239
because that's precisely what I said to my Oh.

1071
01:05:34,159 --> 01:05:35,000
Speaker 5: Did you say that? Okay?

1072
01:05:35,320 --> 01:05:37,960
Speaker 10: Yeah, And I know where I remember he's getting this from.

1073
01:05:38,039 --> 01:05:39,159
This is an old Lofton argument.

1074
01:05:39,800 --> 01:05:42,679
Speaker 14: World asked. The head is to the members, and that

1075
01:05:42,800 --> 01:05:45,599
whoever separates himself from it becomes an exile from the

1076
01:05:45,679 --> 01:05:48,960
Christian religion since he seizes to be belonged to his fellowship.

1077
01:05:49,320 --> 01:05:52,800
So here we have Pope Saint Boniface, He's a saint

1078
01:05:52,880 --> 01:05:55,519
in both of our churches, a church father, a champion

1079
01:05:55,559 --> 01:05:58,159
of Orthodoxy, saying, I see it did not give anything

1080
01:05:58,199 --> 01:06:00,800
to Rome because it cannot add anything to Rome because

1081
01:06:00,960 --> 01:06:01,960
whatever Rome has.

1082
01:06:02,320 --> 01:06:06,320
Speaker 5: Out of curiosity, Alex, did Yassi ever deal with.

1083
01:06:09,079 --> 01:06:12,840
Speaker 10: The canonical statements like in the absolute canons about and

1084
01:06:13,039 --> 01:06:16,840
there's many in the canons of the councils too, the

1085
01:06:16,960 --> 01:06:18,440
limited jurisdiction canons?

1086
01:06:18,760 --> 01:06:23,760
Speaker 5: Does he ever reply to all? Nope? Okay, from the Lord,

1087
01:06:24,480 --> 01:06:27,360
I've actually never heard of Roncalvick response to that.

1088
01:06:27,480 --> 01:06:29,760
Speaker 10: I'm not saying there isn't one. I'm just saying I've

1089
01:06:29,800 --> 01:06:31,920
not really heard them respond to that. I wonder I

1090
01:06:31,960 --> 01:06:33,639
guess they would just say, yeah, we don't care.

1091
01:06:35,280 --> 01:06:39,400
Speaker 14: One so thank you for the canon six there and

1092
01:06:39,480 --> 01:06:39,960
then what else?

1093
01:06:40,000 --> 01:06:40,320
Speaker 5: He said?

1094
01:06:40,559 --> 01:06:44,079
Speaker 14: The pope does not need the permission. I've been saying

1095
01:06:44,199 --> 01:06:46,480
that for the last fifteen years.

1096
01:06:46,559 --> 01:06:49,880
Speaker 10: You guys, just if the pope doesn't need permission, then

1097
01:06:50,199 --> 01:06:51,519
how is it PayPal minimalism?

1098
01:06:51,639 --> 01:06:52,639
Speaker 5: Is that where you go, alex As?

1099
01:06:54,559 --> 01:06:57,360
Speaker 4: Uh, yeah, that's the end of the debate in my opinion, Okay.

1100
01:06:57,840 --> 01:06:59,920
Speaker 14: Watch my videos and you want to assume what I'm saying.

1101
01:07:00,159 --> 01:07:03,440
I have never once said the pope needs permission from

1102
01:07:03,480 --> 01:07:04,000
the bishops.

1103
01:07:04,039 --> 01:07:08,719
Speaker 5: In fact, okay, so this is getting so preposterous, and

1104
01:07:08,840 --> 01:07:10,599
don't I'm sorry. I'm not trying to be mean.

1105
01:07:10,840 --> 01:07:14,000
Speaker 10: I just you know, Ubi and I five years ago,

1106
01:07:14,079 --> 01:07:18,079
we're talking about debating and setting up debates with this guy,

1107
01:07:19,000 --> 01:07:22,440
and UBI said he had a really hard time doing it,

1108
01:07:22,639 --> 01:07:25,000
and Yasi wouldn't agree to any of the terms, and

1109
01:07:25,079 --> 01:07:26,159
so he just gave up.

1110
01:07:26,239 --> 01:07:27,800
Speaker 5: And Ubi said to me.

1111
01:07:29,000 --> 01:07:31,840
Speaker 10: I wouldn't even worry whether he's a terrible debater. And

1112
01:07:32,639 --> 01:07:35,960
I think we saw again that and I'm seeing now

1113
01:07:36,039 --> 01:07:37,880
with my own eyes he's no good.

1114
01:07:39,280 --> 01:07:41,440
Speaker 14: I dare anyone to show me where I've said that.

1115
01:07:41,519 --> 01:07:43,760
In fact, I have said the exact opposite, and I

1116
01:07:43,840 --> 01:07:46,719
have slides on my minimalist video that says, even on

1117
01:07:46,800 --> 01:07:49,760
the minimalist view of the papacy, the Pope does not

1118
01:07:50,239 --> 01:07:54,119
need permission from the bishops to act when he polls them.

1119
01:07:54,199 --> 01:07:56,679
He's not looking for their permission, Hey, can I act

1120
01:07:56,800 --> 01:07:59,079
or not. He's looking for the faith of the church.

1121
01:07:59,119 --> 01:08:00,000
He's doing his homework.

1122
01:08:00,519 --> 01:08:05,119
Speaker 5: So I'm glad. I'm glad the pope's doing his homework.

1123
01:08:05,159 --> 01:08:07,480
Speaker 10: I mean, if I was Catholic, I wouldn't want to

1124
01:08:07,480 --> 01:08:09,559
put my faith and trust in it unless I knew

1125
01:08:09,639 --> 01:08:11,239
for sure he was doing his homework.

1126
01:08:11,559 --> 01:08:13,239
Speaker 5: And thankfully we have.

1127
01:08:14,800 --> 01:08:17,920
Speaker 10: People like Yasi, people like Tim Gordon and the papal

1128
01:08:18,000 --> 01:08:21,600
Apologist to do the grading of the homework for us. Right,

1129
01:08:21,680 --> 01:08:24,439
they can grade the Pope's homework to make sure he

1130
01:08:24,520 --> 01:08:27,159
got on the multiple choices right, to make sure that

1131
01:08:27,279 --> 01:08:31,560
he defined his terms, to make sure he didn't go against.

1132
01:08:31,239 --> 01:08:32,359
Speaker 5: The Apostolic deposit.

1133
01:08:32,520 --> 01:08:37,319
Speaker 10: Now, when I was a tradcat, I went from you

1134
01:08:37,439 --> 01:08:40,560
convert in two thousand and two three in your novasorto

1135
01:08:40,760 --> 01:08:44,159
and you have all the same talking points that I've

1136
01:08:44,199 --> 01:08:46,520
been hearing for twenty five six years, whatever it is.

1137
01:08:47,119 --> 01:08:51,479
And then what happens is you start moving towards papal minimalism. Okay,

1138
01:08:51,680 --> 01:08:56,439
I moved towards papal minimalism in two thousand and four

1139
01:08:56,640 --> 01:08:59,439
when I started going to the Latin Mass, and then

1140
01:08:59,479 --> 01:09:01,760
you moved towards and I don't even know if these

1141
01:09:01,800 --> 01:09:04,520
popes are popes, right, So there's like a bell curve

1142
01:09:04,640 --> 01:09:08,159
or what's that mean that Snack used to share the.

1143
01:09:11,239 --> 01:09:12,720
Speaker 5: Yeah, the trad meme.

1144
01:09:12,720 --> 01:09:16,199
Speaker 10: Where you move to full mel Gibson and then you

1145
01:09:16,359 --> 01:09:19,239
move towards towards the or the doxy.

1146
01:09:19,359 --> 01:09:23,279
Speaker 14: So pulling the bishops, he's looking to see if the

1147
01:09:23,359 --> 01:09:26,479
bishops believe this dogma, because, as natkin One says, he

1148
01:09:26,560 --> 01:09:29,319
cannot make up new dogmas. He can only decree what

1149
01:09:29,479 --> 01:09:32,640
has already been taught by the church university.

1150
01:09:32,720 --> 01:09:35,079
Speaker 5: So he's polling the bishops to make sure that they

1151
01:09:35,199 --> 01:09:35,600
believe it.

1152
01:09:36,840 --> 01:09:40,680
Speaker 10: Okay, well, but it's also kind of not necessary because

1153
01:09:41,000 --> 01:09:43,199
the bishops aren't the ones that tell us or determine

1154
01:09:43,239 --> 01:09:44,800
what the pap what the faith is.

1155
01:09:45,600 --> 01:09:47,640
Speaker 5: So I'm glad to know that the pope.

1156
01:09:47,560 --> 01:09:50,800
Speaker 10: Is polling in an irrelevant poll, which has nothing to

1157
01:09:50,840 --> 01:09:53,960
do with whether or not it's actually dogma, because the

1158
01:09:54,000 --> 01:09:55,680
pope is the one that decides at the end of the.

1159
01:09:55,720 --> 01:09:58,840
Speaker 14: Day for the last two thousand years or whatever the

1160
01:09:58,920 --> 01:10:02,960
time period was was said in eighteen seventy. So this

1161
01:10:03,279 --> 01:10:06,560
is not a permission that the pope is seeking.

1162
01:10:06,880 --> 01:10:08,199
Speaker 5: He is seeking the.

1163
01:10:08,680 --> 01:10:12,960
Speaker 14: Faith of the church, which is called agreement of the church.

1164
01:10:13,119 --> 01:10:15,640
The agreement not permission. Those are two different things. That's

1165
01:10:15,680 --> 01:10:17,039
not a distinction without a difference.

1166
01:10:17,880 --> 01:10:20,680
Speaker 5: Okay, where is he getting this? So he's decided that

1167
01:10:21,720 --> 01:10:25,000
the role of the pope is to find agreement and

1168
01:10:25,159 --> 01:10:25,920
not permission.

1169
01:10:26,880 --> 01:10:32,079
Speaker 10: This is just linguistic ambiguity because as he will say,

1170
01:10:32,119 --> 01:10:34,640
as we already saw, actually at the end of the day,

1171
01:10:34,640 --> 01:10:35,560
he doesn't need permission.

1172
01:10:36,079 --> 01:10:37,159
Speaker 5: Okay, does he need agreement?

1173
01:10:39,000 --> 01:10:43,199
Speaker 10: I mean, if seventy five percent of the bishops disagree

1174
01:10:43,520 --> 01:10:47,279
and the pope decides that the doctrine that he's defining

1175
01:10:47,359 --> 01:10:51,199
in some case actually is the faith, then he doesn't

1176
01:10:51,359 --> 01:10:55,279
need agreement, and it doesn't matter whether you redefine it

1177
01:10:55,399 --> 01:11:02,920
as a quote permission. Again, these people craft kazustri and

1178
01:11:03,079 --> 01:11:06,279
come up with ideas to make the system work.

1179
01:11:08,279 --> 01:11:10,720
Speaker 14: Or different to that distinction, what have you? He looks

1180
01:11:10,720 --> 01:11:15,560
at O'Malley, great, congratulations. I look at polpious and knights

1181
01:11:15,600 --> 01:11:17,760
with bishops who are at Vatican one. German bishops were

1182
01:11:17,760 --> 01:11:19,600
a Vatican one. Gasser, who was set out in the

1183
01:11:19,680 --> 01:11:22,640
Vatican one to explain people with fallibility before they voted

1184
01:11:23,000 --> 01:11:23,880
Fessler Newman.

1185
01:11:24,000 --> 01:11:27,760
Speaker 10: Yeah, but I'm pretty sure Gasser doesn't teach minimalism, right, No,

1186
01:11:28,079 --> 01:11:29,840
Gasser teaches what I was.

1187
01:11:29,880 --> 01:11:32,439
Speaker 5: Saying exactly, Like, why is he signing Gasser?

1188
01:11:33,159 --> 01:11:36,880
Speaker 11: Yeah he can, Gasper doesn't really help him. Gasper explicitly

1189
01:11:37,000 --> 01:11:40,239
says that whether there's like talk about moral obligation, right,

1190
01:11:40,239 --> 01:11:44,000
does the pope have a moral obligation to pull the bishops? Well,

1191
01:11:44,119 --> 01:11:47,079
Gasper says that the person who decides whether or not

1192
01:11:47,159 --> 01:11:51,119
there is a moral obligation is the pope. So it's

1193
01:11:51,159 --> 01:11:53,039
always the pope at the end of the day, Pope

1194
01:11:53,079 --> 01:11:54,000
decides everything.

1195
01:11:55,800 --> 01:11:58,840
Speaker 14: VP two, Paul Benedict and I have consensus of scholars

1196
01:11:58,880 --> 01:12:00,199
here in front of me. If you want to get

1197
01:12:00,239 --> 01:12:03,520
into what Vatican One actually taught from actual Catholic theologians.

1198
01:12:03,840 --> 01:12:07,319
Speaker 10: So wait, why do we need the consensus scholars that again,

1199
01:12:07,399 --> 01:12:10,079
that's not even actually a principle in Rome Catholicism.

1200
01:12:11,560 --> 01:12:12,640
Speaker 14: I think I ran out of time.

1201
01:12:14,600 --> 01:12:17,560
Speaker 7: You have about ten seconds left if you want to continue.

1202
01:12:19,239 --> 01:12:21,560
Speaker 14: He says there were two ex cathedrals since eighteen fifty

1203
01:12:21,600 --> 01:12:24,439
four where doctor John Joy theologians of the Catholic Church

1204
01:12:24,479 --> 01:12:27,479
would disagree. He would look at a human vite as excral.

1205
01:12:27,920 --> 01:12:31,359
Speaker 10: Now he's citing fallible theologians of the Catholic Church to

1206
01:12:32,119 --> 01:12:39,079
dispute the number of ExCathedra statements of recent note. But again,

1207
01:12:39,359 --> 01:12:44,680
as I pointed out, doesn't that itself show that the

1208
01:12:44,760 --> 01:12:49,960
system is fraudulent. I mean, it's not even clear. And

1209
01:12:50,159 --> 01:12:54,439
he's going to fallible Catholic scholars and theologians to tell

1210
01:12:54,520 --> 01:12:58,199
us the ones that are infallible in the last century

1211
01:12:58,319 --> 01:13:03,359
or two. Hello, Like, that's epistemic nonsense.

1212
01:13:03,800 --> 01:13:07,319
Speaker 14: Will trump all the second saying females can be ordained

1213
01:13:07,439 --> 01:13:09,560
as ex cathedral as well. So it just depends on

1214
01:13:09,600 --> 01:13:10,079
who you ask.

1215
01:13:11,039 --> 01:13:16,960
Speaker 5: It just depends on who you ask. Well, Elijah, go ahead,

1216
01:13:17,119 --> 01:13:19,439
go ahead, Alex Oh, yeah, there's a big problem.

1217
01:13:19,520 --> 01:13:22,079
Speaker 11: And like, well, there are certain statements that are irreformable,

1218
01:13:22,239 --> 01:13:22,840
but we don't know.

1219
01:13:22,880 --> 01:13:24,039
Speaker 4: What they are exactly.

1220
01:13:25,479 --> 01:13:27,560
Speaker 5: I mean, he just said that it depends on who

1221
01:13:27,600 --> 01:13:30,279
you ask which ones are infallible. Oh good, because I

1222
01:13:30,359 --> 01:13:32,960
thought the papacy was there to tell us the things

1223
01:13:33,000 --> 01:13:35,600
that are infallible. But it turns out it depends on

1224
01:13:35,640 --> 01:13:36,079
who you ask.

1225
01:13:37,239 --> 01:13:40,039
Speaker 7: Oh right, all right, well, thank you, thank you for that.

1226
01:13:40,159 --> 01:13:41,960
Speaker 5: Ya. I got to hear that again because that was

1227
01:13:42,640 --> 01:13:43,920
the scholars here in front of me.

1228
01:13:43,960 --> 01:13:46,039
Speaker 14: If you want to get into what Vatican One actually

1229
01:13:46,079 --> 01:13:48,680
taught from actual Catholic the elosions, and I think.

1230
01:13:48,600 --> 01:13:50,439
Speaker 5: I wait, so how do we know who the actual

1231
01:13:50,520 --> 01:13:51,560
Kloic delogions are too?

1232
01:13:51,560 --> 01:13:55,039
Speaker 10: By the way, because he's saying Vatican One is elucidated

1233
01:13:55,119 --> 01:13:57,720
by the actual klic de elogians. Well, I thought the

1234
01:13:57,800 --> 01:14:02,199
infallible document was the thing that is the deciding final interpreter.

1235
01:14:02,640 --> 01:14:05,880
But no, no, we need the fallible interpreters to interpret.

1236
01:14:07,119 --> 01:14:09,520
We need the fallible to come and interpret the fallible.

1237
01:14:09,600 --> 01:14:10,920
Speaker 3: This was my.

1238
01:14:11,159 --> 01:14:16,199
Speaker 10: Critique in my papal circularity video seven years ago. And

1239
01:14:16,319 --> 01:14:19,720
then he's basically just repeating that the time.

1240
01:14:21,560 --> 01:14:23,479
Speaker 7: You have about ten seconds left.

1241
01:14:23,479 --> 01:14:27,680
Speaker 5: If you want to continue, I want to hear that depends.

1242
01:14:32,279 --> 01:14:34,720
Speaker 7: You have about a difference.

1243
01:14:36,039 --> 01:14:38,479
Speaker 14: Or difference with that distinction, what have you? He looks

1244
01:14:38,479 --> 01:14:43,319
at O'Malley, great congratulations. I look at polpious and knights

1245
01:14:43,359 --> 01:14:45,520
with bishops who are at Vatican one. German bishops were

1246
01:14:45,520 --> 01:14:47,359
a Vatican one gasser who was set out in the

1247
01:14:47,439 --> 01:14:51,640
Vatican One to explain Paopal fallibility before they Votedfessler Newman,

1248
01:14:51,800 --> 01:14:54,800
JP two, Paul Benedict, and I have consensus of scholars

1249
01:14:54,840 --> 01:14:56,199
here in front of me, if you want to get

1250
01:14:56,199 --> 01:14:59,520
into what Vatican One actually taught from actual Catholic Theolosians.

1251
01:15:00,000 --> 01:15:01,000
And I think I ran out of time.

1252
01:15:03,000 --> 01:15:05,960
Speaker 7: You have about ten seconds left if you want to continue.

1253
01:15:07,640 --> 01:15:09,920
Speaker 14: He says there were two ex cathedrals since eighteen fifty

1254
01:15:09,960 --> 01:15:12,840
four where doctor John Joy, theologian of the Catholic Church

1255
01:15:12,840 --> 01:15:15,760
would disagree. He would look at a human vite as excathedro,

1256
01:15:15,880 --> 01:15:19,439
and Pope Trumpaul the second saying females can be ordained

1257
01:15:19,520 --> 01:15:21,640
as ex cathedral as well. So it just depends on

1258
01:15:21,680 --> 01:15:22,159
who you ask.

1259
01:15:22,720 --> 01:15:25,479
Speaker 5: So it just depends on who you ask in terms

1260
01:15:25,479 --> 01:15:30,279
of what's ex cathedral. I mean, do you do you

1261
01:15:30,359 --> 01:15:34,520
guys in the audience not see the epistemic problem that

1262
01:15:34,600 --> 01:15:36,399
I constantly harp on there?

1263
01:15:38,119 --> 01:15:41,479
Speaker 7: Oh my gosh, oh right, all right, well, thank you,

1264
01:15:41,760 --> 01:15:52,199
thank you. For that, y'all see. And at this point, yeah,

1265
01:15:52,239 --> 01:15:56,640
he would lose justin I'm with you, it's you had

1266
01:15:56,680 --> 01:15:57,680
a five minute I do.

1267
01:15:57,800 --> 01:15:59,600
Speaker 11: Have another PowerPoint slide for that.

1268
01:16:00,039 --> 01:16:05,600
Speaker 5: Okay, Dang, dude, Alex is over here drawing up freaking

1269
01:16:05,960 --> 01:16:08,920
PowerPoint slides on the on the flash.

1270
01:16:09,039 --> 01:16:11,119
Speaker 4: Dude, I already what I wanted.

1271
01:16:11,479 --> 01:16:13,439
Speaker 10: I was gonna say, it'd be funny if you like

1272
01:16:13,600 --> 01:16:15,439
made the PowerPoint as he was doing.

1273
01:16:18,439 --> 01:16:18,680
Speaker 14: Okay.

1274
01:16:18,720 --> 01:16:21,760
Speaker 11: So I did anticipate that Elijah would go into honorifics

1275
01:16:21,760 --> 01:16:24,520
a bit. For basically for almost every quote exalting role,

1276
01:16:24,600 --> 01:16:27,479
there's a corresponding quote to other major sees, like Saint

1277
01:16:27,520 --> 01:16:29,880
Ignatia says that the church in Philadelphia was established by

1278
01:16:29,920 --> 01:16:31,359
God Elijah standards.

1279
01:16:31,640 --> 01:16:35,560
Speaker 10: This is great because this is a again classic loft

1280
01:16:35,760 --> 01:16:37,279
Lofton Loftonism here.

1281
01:16:38,600 --> 01:16:41,800
Speaker 11: And the church in Philadelphia also was divinely instituted because

1282
01:16:41,800 --> 01:16:44,000
it was established in the agreement of God. If you

1283
01:16:44,039 --> 01:16:47,439
apply Elijah yasse standards to I of Antioch.

1284
01:16:47,119 --> 01:16:47,520
Speaker 5: To his church.

1285
01:16:47,720 --> 01:16:52,840
Speaker 10: I remember when Lofton first said this argument against UBI,

1286
01:16:53,039 --> 01:16:55,359
and I was talking to Ubi on the phone, and

1287
01:16:55,439 --> 01:16:58,560
my first thought was God established the Jewish Temple.

1288
01:16:59,319 --> 01:17:00,720
Speaker 3: So what I mean.

1289
01:17:02,279 --> 01:17:04,279
Speaker 5: Was immediately destroyed. Multiple temples were destroyed.

1290
01:17:04,319 --> 01:17:07,840
Speaker 11: So Ephesians, the Church and emphesis was forday ANDed before

1291
01:17:07,880 --> 01:17:10,279
the ages by God, which I mean that shows divine

1292
01:17:10,319 --> 01:17:13,520
institution of the Church and Ephicods. Saint Ignatius also says

1293
01:17:13,560 --> 01:17:15,600
that the Church and Smyrna is second to none in

1294
01:17:15,720 --> 01:17:17,239
every good gift, which.

1295
01:17:17,119 --> 01:17:21,359
Speaker 10: By the way, and I'm not trying to claim like, oh,

1296
01:17:21,760 --> 01:17:27,119
I've found this, but I did notice reading Basil's letters

1297
01:17:27,600 --> 01:17:30,239
back in twenty twenty or twenty nineteen, I did a

1298
01:17:30,319 --> 01:17:34,319
livestream on Basil's letters on this that he was using

1299
01:17:34,359 --> 01:17:37,079
all this terminology calling the Church of Antioch the head

1300
01:17:37,159 --> 01:17:39,119
of the body from which all the other you know,

1301
01:17:39,920 --> 01:17:41,720
churches draw sustenance, et cetera.

1302
01:17:42,760 --> 01:17:42,840
Speaker 2: Uh.

1303
01:17:43,319 --> 01:17:48,680
Speaker 10: And I've never heard Roman Catholics make that work, right,

1304
01:17:49,039 --> 01:17:51,239
if you wanted to make your system work, as they're

1305
01:17:51,239 --> 01:17:54,520
trying to do to make all this mesh together, they.

1306
01:17:54,560 --> 01:17:55,479
Speaker 5: Never touch on those.

1307
01:17:55,640 --> 01:17:59,319
Speaker 10: They just really handwave. Yeah, it doesn't matter what Basil

1308
01:17:59,359 --> 01:18:02,479
said about church. Well, but wait a minute, because you're

1309
01:18:02,560 --> 01:18:07,479
saying that that honorific terminology about Rome proves vaticant one.

1310
01:18:08,319 --> 01:18:13,319
But that's selectively choosing evidence and ignoring other evidences that

1311
01:18:13,359 --> 01:18:16,239
would go contrary to it, because if you're going to

1312
01:18:16,239 --> 01:18:18,960
be consistent and make this whole thing work, you're just

1313
01:18:19,039 --> 01:18:22,199
assuming the thing in question, right, Because if the Roman

1314
01:18:22,279 --> 01:18:25,760
Catholic position is true, then it makes sense why you

1315
01:18:25,840 --> 01:18:30,840
would dismiss Basil calling Antiog the head. But if the

1316
01:18:31,000 --> 01:18:33,640
Roman Caalthy position isn't true, and if it's the thing.

1317
01:18:33,600 --> 01:18:36,039
Speaker 5: In question, you can't just appeal to.

1318
01:18:36,520 --> 01:18:40,199
Speaker 10: The Rome is the head, et cetera without dealing with

1319
01:18:41,000 --> 01:18:45,119
the other patristic doctors of the church, citations of the

1320
01:18:45,239 --> 01:18:48,520
other churches having the same honorific terminology. It just becomes

1321
01:18:49,000 --> 01:18:53,119
a double standard and it becomes arbitrary supremacist.

1322
01:18:56,159 --> 01:18:58,159
Speaker 11: Well, yeah, I was like it was a question doing

1323
01:18:58,199 --> 01:18:59,880
a super chat that were like, how do you just

1324
01:19:00,000 --> 01:19:02,119
thing which between the honorifics that have meaning and the

1325
01:19:02,159 --> 01:19:04,960
honorifics that don't. So my point here is that, like

1326
01:19:05,039 --> 01:19:09,159
he's totally inconsistent which honorifics have weight in which a don'ts?

1327
01:19:10,199 --> 01:19:12,560
Speaker 5: And why is it only the word Why is it

1328
01:19:12,680 --> 01:19:15,199
only the honorifics about Rome to have weight? That's the

1329
01:19:15,279 --> 01:19:16,479
thing here, right, because.

1330
01:19:16,560 --> 01:19:21,920
Speaker 11: He asked standards and his method of interpretation to this letter.

1331
01:19:21,800 --> 01:19:23,000
Speaker 5: And you know what we're going to say.

1332
01:19:23,000 --> 01:19:24,840
Speaker 10: And I don't mean this to be again mean, but

1333
01:19:25,640 --> 01:19:29,039
you know something I've noticed for twenty years plus years

1334
01:19:29,079 --> 01:19:33,359
debating Roman Catholics and debating within Roman Catholicism. You know,

1335
01:19:33,520 --> 01:19:38,239
they just don't understand like questioning and and they don't

1336
01:19:38,319 --> 01:19:41,399
understand internal critiques. They don't understand system level defeaters. They

1337
01:19:41,439 --> 01:19:45,479
don't understand questioning presuppositions. They just cannot grasp it. And

1338
01:19:45,640 --> 01:19:47,840
that's why the whole thing, as we saw with Trent

1339
01:19:48,720 --> 01:19:52,039
and as we see in other Roman Catholic apologists, is

1340
01:19:52,159 --> 01:19:54,279
they just appeal to things just being self evident. It

1341
01:19:54,439 --> 01:19:59,720
just is, it's just just the execut theeds, what's manifestly executhed.

1342
01:20:01,279 --> 01:20:03,359
But yeah, but don't you understand that that doesn't work.

1343
01:20:03,479 --> 01:20:06,079
Speaker 5: That's a circle and you believe as a classical foundational

1344
01:20:06,079 --> 01:20:07,359
list that you can't be circular?

1345
01:20:08,760 --> 01:20:10,800
Speaker 11: Second to none in every good gift? Wait, I thought

1346
01:20:10,920 --> 01:20:14,319
Rome had the most powerful spiritual gift? Did they forget

1347
01:20:14,359 --> 01:20:15,520
about the gift of Infallida?

1348
01:20:15,560 --> 01:20:17,800
Speaker 5: Oh that's a good point, right, Why would Basil speak

1349
01:20:17,880 --> 01:20:21,119
that way? Did he forget that that honorific is actually

1350
01:20:21,319 --> 01:20:24,479
not appropriate for Antioch? That's a really good.

1351
01:20:24,319 --> 01:20:27,600
Speaker 11: Point second to none in every good gift. Uh, the

1352
01:20:27,640 --> 01:20:30,680
Saint Ignatius says that the only bishop above Saint Paulycarp

1353
01:20:30,760 --> 01:20:33,159
is God, the Father and the Lord Jesus Christ. So

1354
01:20:33,399 --> 01:20:37,039
I mean, I guess he forgot also universal jurisdiction and supremacy.

1355
01:20:37,119 --> 01:20:39,880
Speaker 10: Now, this is something that I always point out, and uh,

1356
01:20:41,279 --> 01:20:45,000
this quote from Alex here illustrates it. When you say

1357
01:20:45,039 --> 01:20:48,119
stuff like this, this becomes the oh, we'll see the

1358
01:20:48,159 --> 01:20:50,800
papacy evolved. You see, it's a doctrinal development. They didn't

1359
01:20:50,800 --> 01:20:53,520
really it wasn't really clear yet. But at the same time,

1360
01:20:53,640 --> 01:20:56,720
all those same apologists argue that as Vatican One and

1361
01:20:57,159 --> 01:20:58,760
sideast coming uten say, no, it was.

1362
01:20:58,720 --> 01:21:01,840
Speaker 5: Actually always the case stood from the earliest days. So

1363
01:21:02,680 --> 01:21:06,479
this is a movable system.

1364
01:21:06,800 --> 01:21:09,640
Speaker 10: It's a if you need to argue on the one

1365
01:21:09,720 --> 01:21:14,119
hand that it was always there, it's always there, when

1366
01:21:14,199 --> 01:21:17,359
you have all these quotes like this, I'd say it

1367
01:21:17,439 --> 01:21:19,520
wasn't always there. It was something that was you know,

1368
01:21:19,680 --> 01:21:21,640
doctrial developments.

1369
01:21:21,520 --> 01:21:24,239
Speaker 5: Came to understand it centuries later. So it can't be

1370
01:21:24,319 --> 01:21:26,800
both of those. Those are mutually exclusive positions. And I

1371
01:21:26,840 --> 01:21:29,319
hammer this for years, and I still don't understand why

1372
01:21:29,359 --> 01:21:31,800
they don't get this. It should be.

1373
01:21:33,680 --> 01:21:36,760
Speaker 10: Easy to identify as a problem in terms of logic, right, Like,

1374
01:21:36,960 --> 01:21:39,920
I can't say, on the one hand that using the

1375
01:21:40,279 --> 01:21:44,199
universal quantifier, it was always the case that the earliest

1376
01:21:44,319 --> 01:21:47,840
days of the Church, the earliest fathers understood the Roman

1377
01:21:47,960 --> 01:21:51,439
see to have the view that Vatican one says. I

1378
01:21:51,560 --> 01:21:56,159
can't say that and also say, however, it was not

1379
01:21:56,399 --> 01:21:59,199
always the case, and it was a doctrine that developed

1380
01:21:59,199 --> 01:22:03,960
over many centuries. Those are mutually exclusive, and I have

1381
01:22:04,119 --> 01:22:08,000
yet to hear a Roman Catholic apologist address that objection.

1382
01:22:08,439 --> 01:22:12,399
You notice that most of their apologetics, by the way,

1383
01:22:12,399 --> 01:22:16,680
it relies on not ever addressing our actual arguments and

1384
01:22:17,000 --> 01:22:21,439
only addressing the quote minds, only.

1385
01:22:21,279 --> 01:22:28,920
Speaker 5: Addressing and putting out what abouts. That's it. When are

1386
01:22:28,960 --> 01:22:32,319
they actually going to address the actual arguments?

1387
01:22:33,640 --> 01:22:38,560
Speaker 10: You know, it's been in terms of online YouTube papal apologetics.

1388
01:22:38,680 --> 01:22:43,479
This is going back to twenty seventeen, so we're almost

1389
01:22:43,720 --> 01:22:47,439
ten years into this and they've not addressed specifically the arguments,

1390
01:22:47,520 --> 01:22:50,439
or if they have, I've just not seen it. Maybe

1391
01:22:50,479 --> 01:22:54,880
it went unnoticed in some live stream somewhere. But I'm

1392
01:22:55,399 --> 01:22:57,479
if you're a Roman Catholic apologist, out there and you're

1393
01:22:57,520 --> 01:23:02,279
watching this, I'd like to see some addressing of these

1394
01:23:02,319 --> 01:23:11,600
specific arguments, not straw men, not quote minds, these specific arguments.

1395
01:23:11,960 --> 01:23:12,600
Speaker 5: Ship of Rome.

1396
01:23:12,680 --> 01:23:15,640
Speaker 11: So we have Polycarpian papal supremacy here if we apply

1397
01:23:15,720 --> 01:23:18,800
Elijah Yasse's method of interpretation. Yeah, this is Bassi the

1398
01:23:18,840 --> 01:23:21,319
Great says that Antioch is the head of the whole body. Says, now,

1399
01:23:21,359 --> 01:23:23,439
what could be more vital to the churches of the world,

1400
01:23:23,720 --> 01:23:25,720
the whole world than the Church of Antiochy.

1401
01:23:25,880 --> 01:23:28,920
Speaker 5: This is the one our church. Return Basil's letters and

1402
01:23:28,920 --> 01:23:30,159
by the way, if you want to go back and

1403
01:23:30,239 --> 01:23:33,600
watch them, Joe Rogan just said if you type in

1404
01:23:33,960 --> 01:23:35,800
a lot of these old podcasts have been kind of

1405
01:23:36,119 --> 01:23:40,159
forgotten in the algorithm. But I think there's some value

1406
01:23:40,239 --> 01:23:42,479
in these. Right. We went through Basil's.

1407
01:23:42,119 --> 01:23:47,119
Speaker 10: Letters back in twenty or twenty nineteen, Roman Catholck's and

1408
01:23:47,279 --> 01:23:49,960
Protestants refuted by Nicea and Saint Basil.

1409
01:23:50,039 --> 01:23:51,840
Speaker 5: That's this one here, five or six years ago.

1410
01:23:53,239 --> 01:23:54,880
Speaker 10: So if you're if you want to go through some

1411
01:23:54,960 --> 01:23:57,600
of those letters and what Basil said. By the way,

1412
01:23:57,720 --> 01:23:59,800
Bezelos has other things in those letters too that are great,

1413
01:23:59,840 --> 01:24:04,079
Like Rome is actual actually worthless. He actually says Rome

1414
01:24:04,159 --> 01:24:07,840
has provided absolutely no help with the Malician schism. They

1415
01:24:07,840 --> 01:24:10,159
are worthless and can do nothing to help us. I

1416
01:24:10,199 --> 01:24:15,039
guess he just totally forgot Vatican want didn't he was

1417
01:24:15,199 --> 01:24:17,159
he was not understanding.

1418
01:24:18,079 --> 01:24:22,000
Speaker 5: The papal principles upon which the Church was always founded.

1419
01:24:23,399 --> 01:24:27,119
Speaker 11: When saying Rome was worthless state of control, nothing would

1420
01:24:27,119 --> 01:24:30,199
prevent its affording health in the manner of a sound

1421
01:24:30,239 --> 01:24:32,319
head to the whole body. So Antioch is the head,

1422
01:24:32,479 --> 01:24:35,760
Rome is the body. If you apply Elijah Assi's method

1423
01:24:35,800 --> 01:24:39,079
of interpretation here, Saint Besosa is that Saint Malitias is

1424
01:24:39,119 --> 01:24:40,720
the head of the whole body of the church, which

1425
01:24:40,800 --> 01:24:43,399
is like, I mean, what happened with that Malician schism?

1426
01:24:43,520 --> 01:24:46,079
I mean it was wrong. Rome was just like wrong

1427
01:24:46,199 --> 01:24:46,760
for forty.

1428
01:24:46,640 --> 01:24:48,399
Speaker 5: Yeah, find we gotta find that quote where says Rome

1429
01:24:48,479 --> 01:24:49,520
was worthless forty or.

1430
01:24:49,560 --> 01:24:53,800
Speaker 11: Fifty years, and then they just acquiesced, they confessed that

1431
01:24:53,880 --> 01:24:56,520
they were wrong for forty years. There's a prime example

1432
01:24:56,720 --> 01:25:00,279
of the head acting separate from the body, like forty

1433
01:25:00,359 --> 01:25:04,479
or fifty years. Saint Beelos says that Saint Athanasius is

1434
01:25:04,520 --> 01:25:07,119
the highest of all, which shows Alexandrian supremacy. It shows

1435
01:25:07,119 --> 01:25:09,039
that Saint Athanasius is the head of the church, that

1436
01:25:09,079 --> 01:25:10,920
communion with Alexandria makes you Christian.

1437
01:25:11,920 --> 01:25:12,359
Speaker 5: It's great.

1438
01:25:12,479 --> 01:25:15,279
Speaker 10: Actually, I'm glad that honorifics is now out here in

1439
01:25:15,359 --> 01:25:18,479
the apologetic discourse, because if you go back ten, fifteen,

1440
01:25:18,560 --> 01:25:22,119
twenty years in Roman Catholic apologetics, there wasn't even a

1441
01:25:22,159 --> 01:25:25,479
discussion or acknowledgement of honorifics. It was all just literal

1442
01:25:25,600 --> 01:25:30,319
just quote mine, that was it. You throw out twelve quote. Minds,

1443
01:25:30,439 --> 01:25:32,119
there we go. Vatican one is proven.

1444
01:25:32,600 --> 01:25:37,159
Speaker 5: But I'm glad that we've actually pushed and sort of forced, uh,

1445
01:25:38,439 --> 01:25:41,000
the discourse to be way more precise.

1446
01:25:41,520 --> 01:25:44,359
Speaker 11: And Saint Gregory the Theologian says that Saint Athanasius is

1447
01:25:44,439 --> 01:25:46,439
the fountain and life of the church and that he

1448
01:25:46,560 --> 01:25:49,520
had chief rule over the people in charge over them.

1449
01:25:49,720 --> 01:25:51,439
Speaker 5: This is a good one. I'm not even seen this quote.

1450
01:25:51,479 --> 01:25:53,640
Speaker 11: This is a new one to me the whole world.

1451
01:25:53,960 --> 01:25:55,640
Speaker 5: This is the I read the orations, but I just

1452
01:25:55,680 --> 01:25:58,039
didn't even notice this quote or didn't think about it.

1453
01:25:58,279 --> 01:26:00,760
Speaker 11: Same language that Elijah will point to to like prove

1454
01:26:00,840 --> 01:26:03,720
some sort of papal supremacy here or something. These are

1455
01:26:03,840 --> 01:26:06,840
just honorifics. Everybody talks like this about everyone. It doesn't

1456
01:26:06,880 --> 01:26:10,840
prove anything. Saint Gregory the Theologian said that Saint Tathanasius

1457
01:26:10,960 --> 01:26:14,199
legislated for the whole world without the aid of any coadjutor.

1458
01:26:16,039 --> 01:26:19,199
What happened to the Pope of Rome. Pope Agatho said

1459
01:26:19,199 --> 01:26:21,239
that the Emperor was inspired by the Holy Spirit. He

1460
01:26:21,279 --> 01:26:24,199
said that the Christian commonwealth divinely entrusted to your keeping

1461
01:26:24,359 --> 01:26:26,920
to the Emperor for these decrees, the Holy Spirit, by

1462
01:26:27,000 --> 01:26:29,279
his grace, dictated to the tongue of the Imperial pen.

1463
01:26:29,680 --> 01:26:31,880
So the Holy Spirit was speaking through the Emperor. If

1464
01:26:31,920 --> 01:26:34,840
you apply Elijah Yasse's method of interpretation to these honors.

1465
01:26:35,359 --> 01:26:37,279
Speaker 5: That's great. Guys. By the way, if you want to

1466
01:26:37,279 --> 01:26:39,600
support the stream, you can do so through superchats. Superchats

1467
01:26:39,640 --> 01:26:41,720
are done through stream lives preferably, but you can also

1468
01:26:41,760 --> 01:26:44,119
do it natively through YouTube. We've got a nice crowd.

1469
01:26:44,359 --> 01:26:46,319
Speaker 10: We had about eleven twelve hundred a minute ago, So

1470
01:26:46,520 --> 01:26:49,560
thank you for joining us today as we review the debate,

1471
01:26:49,720 --> 01:26:51,680
and we'll probably get.

1472
01:26:51,600 --> 01:26:55,880
Speaker 5: Into some cultural topics here in a little bit. Good Okay,

1473
01:26:55,920 --> 01:26:58,359
Thanks Alex, Thank you for your comments and great work tonight.

1474
01:26:59,039 --> 01:27:01,279
Thank you very much. By bye. I will take this

1475
01:27:01,399 --> 01:27:01,880
call here.

1476
01:27:04,039 --> 01:27:08,039
Speaker 10: In Ian curtis. What's up, man, I take a couple

1477
01:27:08,079 --> 01:27:11,079
of calls, break up the flow.

1478
01:27:11,199 --> 01:27:11,600
Speaker 5: What's up?

1479
01:27:12,439 --> 01:27:12,880
Speaker 3: What's going on?

1480
01:27:13,039 --> 01:27:13,199
Speaker 5: Man?

1481
01:27:14,399 --> 01:27:15,000
Speaker 4: Appreciate you.

1482
01:27:15,720 --> 01:27:18,439
Speaker 3: So I got a couple of questions here, come from a.

1483
01:27:18,439 --> 01:27:23,039
Speaker 20: Protestant background, actually working my way into finding an Orthodox

1484
01:27:23,199 --> 01:27:26,560
church Eastern nearest once like an hour and a half away.

1485
01:27:26,680 --> 01:27:29,239
But before I go there, I have a couple of

1486
01:27:29,319 --> 01:27:31,680
questions that I would like to be answered.

1487
01:27:33,680 --> 01:27:34,359
Speaker 3: Man, things like.

1488
01:27:36,560 --> 01:27:38,199
Speaker 20: I have a buddy of mine that that has me

1489
01:27:38,479 --> 01:27:46,000
kind of baffled. The the Anglican and Presbyterian Church claims

1490
01:27:46,039 --> 01:27:50,720
to have Apostolics accession, and well, I say, they claim,

1491
01:27:50,920 --> 01:27:54,039
you know, you see Redeemed Zoomer speaking on some of these.

1492
01:27:54,319 --> 01:27:57,119
Speaker 10: Let let's be precise here. They claim that it's a

1493
01:27:57,359 --> 01:28:00,960
doctrinal succession. It is not in history oracle laying on

1494
01:28:01,079 --> 01:28:03,720
of hands bishop to bishop succession.

1495
01:28:05,279 --> 01:28:07,279
Speaker 4: Okay, okay, okay.

1496
01:28:07,760 --> 01:28:11,000
Speaker 10: But we say with Saint Paul to Timothy, he says,

1497
01:28:11,079 --> 01:28:14,560
I laid hands on you. Don't lay hands on anyone hastily,

1498
01:28:14,640 --> 01:28:16,600
because the gift of the Holy Spirit is giving in

1499
01:28:16,640 --> 01:28:19,920
the laying on of hands. And the Orthodox Church holds

1500
01:28:19,960 --> 01:28:24,560
that and the the Protestant churches specifically, as far as

1501
01:28:24,600 --> 01:28:29,119
I'm aware, do not acknowledge a transferring of the Holy

1502
01:28:29,199 --> 01:28:30,359
Spirit through the laying on of hands.

1503
01:28:31,359 --> 01:28:33,520
Speaker 4: Absolutely, Okay.

1504
01:28:35,079 --> 01:28:40,520
Speaker 20: So a couple more questions, So would would meet leaving

1505
01:28:41,239 --> 01:28:47,239
the the Protestant Church and views and going into Orthodoxy

1506
01:28:47,359 --> 01:28:50,159
be considered ecent of schism because he brought that up,

1507
01:28:50,199 --> 01:28:52,680
and I don't understand how that would even correlate. But

1508
01:28:53,319 --> 01:28:55,560
I would just like your your your views and understanding

1509
01:28:55,600 --> 01:28:55,760
on that.

1510
01:28:57,439 --> 01:29:00,119
Speaker 10: No, I mean, what you believe is schism will be

1511
01:29:00,199 --> 01:29:03,319
dependent on your worldview and which religion you're in. So

1512
01:29:04,039 --> 01:29:07,560
if Orthodoxy is true, they're the ones in heresinan schism.

1513
01:29:08,159 --> 01:29:10,239
So again that that really just depends on you know,

1514
01:29:10,520 --> 01:29:13,359
which one's right, and that's the thing in question. So

1515
01:29:15,640 --> 01:29:17,960
for the Orthodox Church, No, there are not thousands of

1516
01:29:18,039 --> 01:29:21,720
churches that are all in schism. There's only one mystical body,

1517
01:29:21,800 --> 01:29:23,800
which is the Holy Orthodox Church.

1518
01:29:23,920 --> 01:29:27,159
Speaker 4: That's it, okay.

1519
01:29:27,920 --> 01:29:29,279
Speaker 20: And I have a bunch of the I was going

1520
01:29:29,359 --> 01:29:32,399
to ask which books to look into as well, And

1521
01:29:32,520 --> 01:29:35,039
I understand the way that y'all kind of go about it.

1522
01:29:35,119 --> 01:29:40,960
You'll start off with Christendom and Christology. I'm sorry, christology first,

1523
01:29:41,119 --> 01:29:43,279
instead of working almost backwards.

1524
01:29:43,840 --> 01:29:46,439
Speaker 10: Yeah, we don't start with with soteriology. So we start

1525
01:29:46,520 --> 01:29:49,199
with like the doctrine of the deed of Christ and

1526
01:29:49,239 --> 01:29:51,439
the Trinity, which is what the Council's kind of laid out,

1527
01:29:52,119 --> 01:29:54,640
and then so teiology flows from that. So if you

1528
01:29:54,720 --> 01:29:57,079
read you know, efthanacious on the incarnation, if you read

1529
01:29:57,199 --> 01:30:01,960
uh basils on the Holy Spirit, appreciate that.

1530
01:30:02,119 --> 01:30:02,319
Speaker 5: Guys.

1531
01:30:02,319 --> 01:30:03,920
Speaker 10: If you want to help me get to the goal tonight,

1532
01:30:04,000 --> 01:30:06,600
you can with the super chats. Appreciate that big one there.

1533
01:30:07,199 --> 01:30:09,199
Aleron says God bless you and thank you for your works. Well,

1534
01:30:09,199 --> 01:30:11,760
thank you, man, I appreciate that. Good to see you

1535
01:30:11,840 --> 01:30:12,479
back in the chat.

1536
01:30:12,560 --> 01:30:14,239
Speaker 5: I haven't seen you around in a while. Glad you're

1537
01:30:14,239 --> 01:30:15,640
back prefix.

1538
01:30:16,800 --> 01:30:20,199
Speaker 11: The papal legates at that real eighth Ecumenical Council of Age.

1539
01:30:23,399 --> 01:30:28,279
Speaker 5: You want. I'm mute? Is that Alpha Omega?

1540
01:30:29,800 --> 01:30:29,960
Speaker 1: Oh?

1541
01:30:30,119 --> 01:30:30,239
Speaker 11: Hey?

1542
01:30:30,359 --> 01:30:30,479
Speaker 4: Hey?

1543
01:30:30,560 --> 01:30:30,880
Speaker 8: What's up?

1544
01:30:30,920 --> 01:30:31,039
Speaker 17: Man?

1545
01:30:31,079 --> 01:30:31,239
Speaker 14: Hey?

1546
01:30:31,319 --> 01:30:33,399
Speaker 13: I was I just came to argue with you about

1547
01:30:33,520 --> 01:30:35,560
about miss Candas, but I don't.

1548
01:30:35,399 --> 01:30:37,119
Speaker 5: Want to do he no, no, no, we can talk

1549
01:30:37,159 --> 01:30:38,399
about that real quick. What's up?

1550
01:30:38,880 --> 01:30:39,000
Speaker 14: Oh?

1551
01:30:39,159 --> 01:30:39,399
Speaker 17: Cool?

1552
01:30:40,399 --> 01:30:43,279
Speaker 3: Well, what was your what did you want to debate?

1553
01:30:43,319 --> 01:30:45,840
What was your like specific issue.

1554
01:30:45,840 --> 01:30:48,680
Speaker 5: I mean, I'm sure you have a ton, but uh, well,

1555
01:30:48,720 --> 01:30:51,920
I think that I think obviously obviously the story that

1556
01:30:52,079 --> 01:30:54,199
Mitch snow tells is preposterous.

1557
01:30:56,359 --> 01:30:57,319
Speaker 3: So gotcha.

1558
01:30:58,399 --> 01:31:00,560
Speaker 13: Do you just have contentions with her the Mitch no

1559
01:31:00,760 --> 01:31:05,039
stuff or is it like Candice in general as a.

1560
01:31:06,520 --> 01:31:06,560
Speaker 3: No.

1561
01:31:06,720 --> 01:31:08,399
Speaker 10: I just think that that was a huge blow to

1562
01:31:08,479 --> 01:31:11,039
her credibility to keep doubling down on that guy who's

1563
01:31:11,079 --> 01:31:12,319
obvious fraud on man.

1564
01:31:14,199 --> 01:31:16,680
Speaker 3: Yeah, could be. I think it's weird.

1565
01:31:16,800 --> 01:31:18,399
Speaker 9: So this is sort of like we all have to

1566
01:31:18,520 --> 01:31:19,600
admit that this sort of.

1567
01:31:19,640 --> 01:31:21,760
Speaker 3: Open real time.

1568
01:31:25,039 --> 01:31:28,439
Speaker 13: Where somebody serves as a central hub for people, like

1569
01:31:28,680 --> 01:31:32,159
you know, within TPUSA because a lot of the stuff

1570
01:31:32,199 --> 01:31:35,840
we wouldn't even know about. If she wasn't a sort

1571
01:31:35,880 --> 01:31:38,199
of person that people trusted they could go to and

1572
01:31:38,399 --> 01:31:41,840
know something, it would be disseminated and early on, like

1573
01:31:42,680 --> 01:31:46,640
tons of information about TPUSA came out that ended up

1574
01:31:46,680 --> 01:31:47,760
being verified because of her.

1575
01:31:47,880 --> 01:31:49,319
Speaker 4: So, yeah, I'm with you.

1576
01:31:49,479 --> 01:31:55,279
Speaker 13: It's definitely like weird to watch this scenario unfold where

1577
01:31:55,760 --> 01:32:00,399
we all have to watch an investigation play out that's messy,

1578
01:32:00,520 --> 01:32:05,880
that's super that has super high stakes and everyone's has

1579
01:32:05,920 --> 01:32:11,119
an emotional Uh uh uh, stuck in you know, certain

1580
01:32:11,119 --> 01:32:13,439
emotional feelings about about the people involved.

1581
01:32:13,479 --> 01:32:14,359
Speaker 4: So it is weird.

1582
01:32:14,399 --> 01:32:14,920
Speaker 1: I'll give you that.

1583
01:32:15,119 --> 01:32:17,119
Speaker 13: I you know, I don't know what's going to play off,

1584
01:32:17,199 --> 01:32:19,560
but I think she's doing it in good faith.

1585
01:32:19,960 --> 01:32:21,600
Speaker 4: She might be getting played, but.

1586
01:32:22,119 --> 01:32:23,399
Speaker 3: I think that it's uh.

1587
01:32:24,359 --> 01:32:26,520
Speaker 4: I think she has good intuition, at least so far.

1588
01:32:26,880 --> 01:32:30,720
Speaker 5: But you know, how did How would you Why would

1589
01:32:30,760 --> 01:32:32,479
you believe that.

1590
01:32:34,439 --> 01:32:37,720
Speaker 10: A guy with a criminal record just stumbled on on

1591
01:32:38,000 --> 01:32:41,399
on the base in the midst of a bunch of

1592
01:32:41,640 --> 01:32:45,319
colonels planning and assassin Do you think that's how assassinations

1593
01:32:45,399 --> 01:32:46,159
are are done?

1594
01:32:47,960 --> 01:32:48,000
Speaker 3: So?

1595
01:32:48,279 --> 01:32:52,039
Speaker 5: I don't know, that's you don't know. Have you ever

1596
01:32:52,119 --> 01:32:54,880
read a book all assassinations or how black ops go?

1597
01:32:55,960 --> 01:32:56,000
Speaker 14: So?

1598
01:32:56,119 --> 01:33:00,159
Speaker 13: Brian Harple, Brian Harple is so Candice has been saying

1599
01:33:00,199 --> 01:33:02,079
that she thinks this is a military op from the

1600
01:33:02,119 --> 01:33:06,720
get go, right, and Brian Harple, who's the center point

1601
01:33:06,920 --> 01:33:11,039
of why Carli Charlie was assassinated? I mean, it all

1602
01:33:11,079 --> 01:33:11,800
really falls on.

1603
01:33:12,600 --> 01:33:15,720
Speaker 10: Can you give me an example of a situation or

1604
01:33:15,720 --> 01:33:18,960
any piece of evidence where colonels were standing at a

1605
01:33:19,039 --> 01:33:23,359
military base and planned an assassination that somebody could just

1606
01:33:23,399 --> 01:33:24,239
stumble into.

1607
01:33:26,920 --> 01:33:33,279
Speaker 13: So specifically, Brian Harple being at a military base.

1608
01:33:33,880 --> 01:33:36,920
Speaker 5: What does somebody being at a military base have to

1609
01:33:36,960 --> 01:33:37,520
do with anything?

1610
01:33:38,319 --> 01:33:38,479
Speaker 14: Why?

1611
01:33:38,640 --> 01:33:41,520
Speaker 5: So, can you hear the question that I'm actually asking.

1612
01:33:42,479 --> 01:33:45,960
Speaker 13: I'm trying to give you context because the security apparatus

1613
01:33:46,079 --> 01:33:49,239
of people are usually the weakest links of how people.

1614
01:33:49,399 --> 01:33:51,439
Speaker 5: What does that have to do with colonels? Twelve colonels

1615
01:33:51,439 --> 01:33:52,279
at a military.

1616
01:33:52,000 --> 01:33:56,319
Speaker 13: Base, because Brian Harple could be there to talk to

1617
01:33:56,399 --> 01:33:56,720
you just.

1618
01:33:56,760 --> 01:33:59,800
Speaker 5: Keep saying this guy's name. I'm not regardless of this.

1619
01:34:01,000 --> 01:34:05,920
What is the precedent for twelve dudes at a military base.

1620
01:34:05,760 --> 01:34:08,279
Speaker 10: That are colonels just standing around planning an assassination? Do

1621
01:34:08,399 --> 01:34:10,239
you think that's how assassinations go down?

1622
01:34:11,399 --> 01:34:11,439
Speaker 3: So?

1623
01:34:11,600 --> 01:34:14,039
Speaker 13: I think you're you made up that scenario.

1624
01:34:14,119 --> 01:34:16,880
Speaker 5: We don't know how I made that up. That's that's

1625
01:34:16,960 --> 01:34:17,560
his claim.

1626
01:34:19,600 --> 01:34:22,760
Speaker 13: He never said anything about them planning an assassination. He

1627
01:34:22,920 --> 01:34:25,319
just said he saw him there, that you made up

1628
01:34:25,359 --> 01:34:25,840
that story.

1629
01:34:26,079 --> 01:34:27,600
Speaker 5: I mean maybe that I made that up.

1630
01:34:27,760 --> 01:34:28,119
Speaker 2: Uh huh.

1631
01:34:29,079 --> 01:34:32,000
Speaker 13: No one has ever said that they were planning an

1632
01:34:32,039 --> 01:34:36,479
assassination there. The question is why is the person who

1633
01:34:36,640 --> 01:34:40,319
let Charlie get assassinated, who doesn't have a military background

1634
01:34:41,159 --> 01:34:43,800
at a military base the day prior. And that's just

1635
01:34:43,880 --> 01:34:48,800
the question who knows, like, because I mean, what do

1636
01:34:48,880 --> 01:34:51,560
you do though as an investigator, because if you're like

1637
01:34:51,640 --> 01:34:55,000
the FBI, imagine all the stupid roads they go down

1638
01:34:55,079 --> 01:34:56,680
in secret that we never know about.

1639
01:34:57,760 --> 01:35:00,479
Speaker 10: Have you can you tell me a one book that

1640
01:35:00,560 --> 01:35:02,800
you've read on geopolitics or assassinations.

1641
01:35:03,680 --> 01:35:06,439
Speaker 13: I've read every single book it exists.

1642
01:35:06,439 --> 01:35:10,520
Speaker 5: Okay, it's troll, So hey, thanks for wasting my time. Man,

1643
01:35:10,600 --> 01:35:14,199
Good job, dude. So there we go. So there we go.

1644
01:35:14,399 --> 01:35:22,319
See the experts are out, the experts are ready, and

1645
01:35:22,600 --> 01:35:26,560
uh no one made the claim. Yes they did. He

1646
01:35:26,720 --> 01:35:27,880
claimed to have seen.

1647
01:35:30,239 --> 01:35:35,079
Speaker 10: What was it, eleven colonels or twelve colonels And well,

1648
01:35:35,159 --> 01:35:36,720
you didn't say that they were.

1649
01:35:36,840 --> 01:35:37,880
Speaker 5: No, he said that.

1650
01:35:38,520 --> 01:35:41,640
Speaker 10: He implied they were assassinating. They're playing the assassination. Because

1651
01:35:41,680 --> 01:35:47,399
Erica Kirk was there, he did say that what these

1652
01:35:47,399 --> 01:35:52,119
people are just like I think Rachel's right, a lot

1653
01:35:52,159 --> 01:35:56,199
of these people this is their first like conspiracy candy event,

1654
01:35:56,640 --> 01:36:02,000
and so they just automatically assume that. I mean, I've

1655
01:36:02,119 --> 01:36:06,359
interviewed the most famous living hitman, so I do know

1656
01:36:06,439 --> 01:36:08,079
more about this than any of these people.

1657
01:36:08,479 --> 01:36:12,800
Speaker 18: What's up, man, Jake, how much do you think that

1658
01:36:13,359 --> 01:36:18,800
the rise of the papacy as a geopolitical institution can

1659
01:36:18,880 --> 01:36:21,880
really be traced back to the decline of the western

1660
01:36:21,960 --> 01:36:25,760
portion of the Empire, Like as the center of economic

1661
01:36:25,840 --> 01:36:29,800
and military powder started to move east, don't you think

1662
01:36:29,920 --> 01:36:33,119
that the papacy sort of stepped in to fill a

1663
01:36:33,199 --> 01:36:34,119
vacuum sort of.

1664
01:36:34,119 --> 01:36:38,439
Speaker 10: Speak that the Yeah, I think that's universally recognized to

1665
01:36:38,520 --> 01:36:40,000
be part of the big part of it.

1666
01:36:40,079 --> 01:36:42,800
Speaker 18: Yeah, going all the way back to what Leo the Third,

1667
01:36:42,920 --> 01:36:46,439
who's basically had his life saved by Charlemagne.

1668
01:36:46,520 --> 01:36:49,119
Speaker 5: So you have to con well, I even remember reading.

1669
01:36:49,359 --> 01:36:53,119
I've got old Roman Catholic books like Faith of Our Fathers.

1670
01:36:53,319 --> 01:36:57,920
I've got like an old first edition of that, which

1671
01:36:58,239 --> 01:37:00,800
I think even it even has its on that. Let

1672
01:37:00,880 --> 01:37:06,800
me show you. So, I mean, this is like freaking

1673
01:37:07,800 --> 01:37:08,640
you come in this room.

1674
01:37:09,239 --> 01:37:13,439
Speaker 10: This is like Dumbledore's layer in here, dude, except except straight,

1675
01:37:13,600 --> 01:37:14,720
Like I'm not gay Dumbledore.

1676
01:37:14,720 --> 01:37:15,680
Speaker 5: I'm straight Dumbledore.

1677
01:37:16,279 --> 01:37:18,640
Speaker 10: And I'm also hot, I'm not ugly like Dumbledore. So

1678
01:37:19,079 --> 01:37:24,039
when you come in this layer, dude, you've got like archives, bro,

1679
01:37:24,199 --> 01:37:29,039
this is like the anti Vatican library over here.

1680
01:37:29,159 --> 01:37:33,680
Speaker 5: Check this out. So this is a Faith of Our

1681
01:37:33,800 --> 01:37:40,880
Fathers by Colonel Gibbon. And I want to say, I

1682
01:37:40,880 --> 01:37:42,319
haven't looked at this in a long time. This is

1683
01:37:42,319 --> 01:37:43,840
an eighteen ninety copy.

1684
01:37:43,960 --> 01:37:48,720
Speaker 10: Look at this, So these Ron mcalleys don't even know, bro, Like,

1685
01:37:49,119 --> 01:37:54,000
I've got damn archives up in here, dude, it's it's

1686
01:37:54,119 --> 01:37:56,239
dumbledoors archives up in here.

1687
01:37:56,399 --> 01:37:57,479
Speaker 5: Check that out, Isn't there cool?

1688
01:37:58,159 --> 01:38:01,720
Speaker 10: I want to say, even this was arguing and admitting,

1689
01:38:02,079 --> 01:38:03,079
I think he has a chapter on.

1690
01:38:03,079 --> 01:38:03,760
Speaker 5: The Papal states.

1691
01:38:05,960 --> 01:38:09,680
Speaker 18: Go ahead, no, I said, I just think that that's

1692
01:38:09,680 --> 01:38:11,520
a history that has to be considered and it doesn't

1693
01:38:11,640 --> 01:38:13,520
get talked about enough on the Roman Catholic side.

1694
01:38:13,680 --> 01:38:15,479
Speaker 5: And just real quick before I go earlier.

1695
01:38:15,399 --> 01:38:18,000
Speaker 10: Yes, I am correct, I am correct, I am correct.

1696
01:38:18,039 --> 01:38:28,520
Hold on, so if we look right here, where's the

1697
01:38:28,600 --> 01:38:32,359
scene with the freaking I lost a scene?

1698
01:38:32,560 --> 01:38:43,800
Speaker 5: Hold on? There we go. So notice here.

1699
01:38:46,920 --> 01:38:49,399
Speaker 10: This is funny too, because in this chapter on the

1700
01:38:49,439 --> 01:38:58,319
temporal power of the Popes, that right there, temporal power

1701
01:38:58,319 --> 01:39:00,960
of the popes, how they acquire that in peral power?

1702
01:39:01,000 --> 01:39:03,920
The validity and justice of that title, what the popes

1703
01:39:03,960 --> 01:39:05,319
have done for the city of Rome.

1704
01:39:05,479 --> 01:39:06,439
Speaker 5: That's one sixty two.

1705
01:39:06,560 --> 01:39:09,159
Speaker 10: So get all the way back to eighteen ninety, with

1706
01:39:10,239 --> 01:39:11,680
Cardinal Gibbons making that argument.

1707
01:39:11,720 --> 01:39:15,840
Speaker 18: Go ahead, right, No, so, just in closing the Hercules,

1708
01:39:15,960 --> 01:39:18,840
dude from earlier was clearly trolling. I don't know if

1709
01:39:18,840 --> 01:39:23,159
you noticed, but his profile bio said EO Saint Augustine,

1710
01:39:23,239 --> 01:39:23,600
pray for.

1711
01:39:23,720 --> 01:39:26,199
Speaker 4: Us, which is just why would you put that in

1712
01:39:26,279 --> 01:39:26,520
a bio?

1713
01:39:27,640 --> 01:39:30,000
Speaker 10: Well, I mean these are probably like twenty year olds.

1714
01:39:30,239 --> 01:39:32,760
He claims these cradle orthodox. I don't think that's true.

1715
01:39:34,239 --> 01:39:39,560
Speaker 5: Natalie, what's up? We can hop on the canvas we

1716
01:39:39,640 --> 01:39:40,039
get in debate.

1717
01:39:40,119 --> 01:39:44,279
Speaker 10: Sweet Candy, listen, if you're going to be spitting out

1718
01:39:44,960 --> 01:39:48,159
how assassinations go down, I expect that you've at least

1719
01:39:48,239 --> 01:39:51,960
read one book on it, at least one. Give me

1720
01:39:52,239 --> 01:39:55,119
you've read one geopolitical breakdown. And I don't mean a

1721
01:39:55,159 --> 01:39:59,520
conspiracy crazy you know. I'm not talking about you picked

1722
01:39:59,560 --> 01:40:04,399
up f and Fritz Springmeer's book and read twenty pages.

1723
01:40:04,399 --> 01:40:09,399
I'm talking about some real black ops book something.

1724
01:40:10,479 --> 01:40:24,960
Speaker 5: Natalie, what's up. I'm mute. I'm mute, Natalie, unmute, Okay,

1725
01:40:25,720 --> 01:40:36,680
don't sky Daddy, what's up, sky Daddy? I'm mute.

1726
01:40:39,119 --> 01:40:41,720
Speaker 11: Hello, Hey, hey man.

1727
01:40:43,039 --> 01:40:45,520
Speaker 3: I just wanted to say I appreciate all the stuff

1728
01:40:45,600 --> 01:40:45,760
you do.

1729
01:40:47,319 --> 01:40:51,279
Speaker 12: You've helped bring me and my family into Orthodoxy, and

1730
01:40:51,359 --> 01:40:53,279
I really appreciate all you do on YouTube.

1731
01:40:55,640 --> 01:40:57,319
Speaker 3: I just wanted to throw something in there.

1732
01:40:58,239 --> 01:40:59,000
Speaker 11: I did.

1733
01:41:00,439 --> 01:41:05,840
Speaker 12: Uh ten years in the military pop secret security clearance.

1734
01:41:05,520 --> 01:41:06,560
Speaker 5: And worked around.

1735
01:41:07,800 --> 01:41:10,760
Speaker 10: A lot of information like that, and so all the

1736
01:41:10,880 --> 01:41:15,199
colonels just get together and random dudes can just stumble

1737
01:41:15,279 --> 01:41:16,960
into the skiff and.

1738
01:41:17,520 --> 01:41:19,960
Speaker 4: Exactly no, you're exactly right.

1739
01:41:21,279 --> 01:41:24,960
Speaker 12: I couldn't stumble across twelve kernels if.

1740
01:41:24,920 --> 01:41:28,239
Speaker 4: I fucking wanted to. And it's not like they're all

1741
01:41:28,479 --> 01:41:30,199
just fucking yeah.

1742
01:41:30,279 --> 01:41:32,560
Speaker 10: Dude, that's not how an assassination would even be planned.

1743
01:41:32,600 --> 01:41:34,640
It's so so stupid, Like, yeah.

1744
01:41:35,000 --> 01:41:38,159
Speaker 12: It's so preposterous when I hear people say shit like

1745
01:41:38,279 --> 01:41:39,359
that when they speculate.

1746
01:41:40,760 --> 01:41:42,479
Speaker 4: But yeah, I just wanted to throw that in there.

1747
01:41:42,520 --> 01:41:43,560
It's just ridiculous.

1748
01:41:44,399 --> 01:41:53,039
Speaker 5: Appreciate that. Yeah, exactly blaze. What's up, dude, Yeah, were

1749
01:41:53,039 --> 01:41:54,199
about to get blazed.

1750
01:41:57,479 --> 01:42:03,039
Speaker 4: I've come to talk to Ganda the well straight, not.

1751
01:42:03,159 --> 01:42:03,680
Speaker 3: The gay.

1752
01:42:05,399 --> 01:42:05,560
Speaker 1: Well.

1753
01:42:05,680 --> 01:42:09,720
Speaker 10: I'm Dumbledore the straight, So welcome to my later Harry

1754
01:42:10,319 --> 01:42:11,399
I McKellen is gay.

1755
01:42:11,560 --> 01:42:19,039
Speaker 9: I know I'm aware, Gandalf Gayham, you know, so i'd

1756
01:42:19,079 --> 01:42:21,159
be talking a lot of Roman Catholics, and I bring

1757
01:42:21,279 --> 01:42:22,720
up Constance and one a lot.

1758
01:42:22,800 --> 01:42:27,159
Speaker 21: I bring up how Melitos wasn't in uh in communion

1759
01:42:27,239 --> 01:42:29,760
with Rome. I bring up how the fact that they

1760
01:42:30,319 --> 01:42:32,920
basically there was no patriarch of Rome, there there was

1761
01:42:33,000 --> 01:42:37,560
no Western legates at the council, and how all this

1762
01:42:37,640 --> 01:42:39,520
type of stuff, and Roman Catholics they kind of just

1763
01:42:39,640 --> 01:42:42,760
defer to this like statement where they say, oh, well

1764
01:42:42,800 --> 01:42:47,560
that council wasn't really considered binding until Rome ratified it.

1765
01:42:47,640 --> 01:42:50,920
Speaker 5: At calcl On, so they're just restating the Roman Kellic views.

1766
01:42:51,199 --> 01:42:55,079
So yeah, well that's the thing in question. So all

1767
01:42:55,119 --> 01:42:57,439
the people who were at the council and all the people.

1768
01:42:57,239 --> 01:42:59,000
Speaker 10: In the East to accept it it thought it was binding.

1769
01:42:59,840 --> 01:43:01,880
So all you're telling me is that you, as a

1770
01:43:01,960 --> 01:43:04,319
Roman Catholic, don't think it was binding until the pope

1771
01:43:04,359 --> 01:43:06,720
accepted it, which is to tell me nothing.

1772
01:43:09,439 --> 01:43:11,720
Speaker 21: It's just every time I have this conversation, it's just

1773
01:43:11,880 --> 01:43:14,399
oh yeah, these guys are just solo tier.

1774
01:43:14,840 --> 01:43:15,039
Speaker 5: Yeah.

1775
01:43:15,119 --> 01:43:17,279
Speaker 21: I bring up I bring up, like, you know, the

1776
01:43:17,359 --> 01:43:21,680
Phodian Council with John the Eighth literally condemning the Philioque,

1777
01:43:21,760 --> 01:43:25,880
and they're like they just handwave it, you know, it's like, dude, it's.

1778
01:43:25,800 --> 01:43:28,239
Speaker 5: It's well, that's the thing with with with the wayte

1779
01:43:28,319 --> 01:43:30,680
systems work, and that's what we learn from this. Appreciate

1780
01:43:30,720 --> 01:43:31,039
that call.

1781
01:43:32,119 --> 01:43:35,800
Speaker 10: This illustrates the point that people do not believe or

1782
01:43:35,920 --> 01:43:39,640
are they're not convinced by positions purely or merely on

1783
01:43:39,680 --> 01:43:45,640
the basis of evidences, facts, et cetera. Sometimes they are,

1784
01:43:45,800 --> 01:43:51,720
but there's a complicated human psychology at work here with

1785
01:43:51,840 --> 01:43:56,039
the way worldviews work, where a lot of times people

1786
01:43:56,159 --> 01:44:03,399
don't have virtuous choices for they don't have intellectual honesty,

1787
01:44:03,479 --> 01:44:06,000
and they don't have a virtue ethic. So it doesn't

1788
01:44:06,000 --> 01:44:10,840
even require loving and seeking the truth. It's really just

1789
01:44:11,239 --> 01:44:12,800
making it what you want to be true.

1790
01:44:13,119 --> 01:44:14,039
Speaker 5: That's the difference here.

1791
01:44:15,000 --> 01:44:17,920
Speaker 10: We have to first say I'm gonna submit to what's

1792
01:44:17,960 --> 01:44:20,279
true no matter what. That's the only way to come

1793
01:44:20,319 --> 01:44:23,439
to the truth. As long as you are propping it

1794
01:44:23,560 --> 01:44:28,920
up regardless of whether it's true or not, just because

1795
01:44:28,920 --> 01:44:33,079
you want it to be true. That's the big flaw here.

1796
01:44:34,079 --> 01:44:36,479
That's where you're going to go wrong. That's where you're

1797
01:44:36,479 --> 01:44:38,600
going to be caught in some sort of Look every

1798
01:44:38,680 --> 01:44:43,880
person in a cult, it's no different than people in cults, right,

1799
01:44:43,960 --> 01:44:46,359
People in cults are like, you can't really reason with

1800
01:44:46,520 --> 01:44:50,880
them because all the reasoning, all the evidences, all the

1801
01:44:51,039 --> 01:44:57,079
counter factual data gets dismissed or reinterpreted to fit the paradigm.

1802
01:44:57,279 --> 01:45:01,239
That's why it's so important and so powerful and the

1803
01:45:01,319 --> 01:45:03,600
only thing that really cures people coming out of this

1804
01:45:03,680 --> 01:45:06,479
stuff intellectually speaking, I mean, you can come out of

1805
01:45:06,520 --> 01:45:09,079
it without an intellectual stuff. It's to actually question the paradigm.

1806
01:45:09,760 --> 01:45:12,399
That's why we stress paradigms and worldviews so much, is

1807
01:45:12,479 --> 01:45:17,119
because that's the key. And Soren said the same thing.

1808
01:45:17,399 --> 01:45:21,840
You know, we did a previous podcast on that. Uh, Andrew,

1809
01:45:21,880 --> 01:45:22,239
what's up?

1810
01:45:25,239 --> 01:45:27,720
Speaker 5: By the way, I was having I'm having fun debating

1811
01:45:27,800 --> 01:45:28,479
other topics.

1812
01:45:28,479 --> 01:45:30,880
Speaker 10: So if anybody wants to debate Candice or sneak O

1813
01:45:31,079 --> 01:45:33,079
or this other stuff, raise your hand. I will bring

1814
01:45:33,159 --> 01:45:35,920
you right up, but you better come with some good

1815
01:45:35,960 --> 01:45:38,359
information or some good evidence or some something.

1816
01:45:40,560 --> 01:45:45,680
Speaker 4: What's up, hi Jay? Not comeing to uh to debate?

1817
01:45:45,840 --> 01:45:46,720
Speaker 7: Just just a question?

1818
01:45:47,000 --> 01:45:48,199
Speaker 4: So sorry if that's.

1819
01:45:51,039 --> 01:45:51,079
Speaker 3: So.

1820
01:45:51,199 --> 01:45:53,720
Speaker 22: I'm a prost. I just got I've got two questions

1821
01:45:53,800 --> 01:45:55,600
on stuff. I'm just kind of trying to work through

1822
01:45:55,640 --> 01:45:57,960
some genuine question not trying to argue.

1823
01:45:59,560 --> 01:45:59,880
Speaker 3: They I.

1824
01:46:00,000 --> 01:46:01,840
Speaker 22: I guess the two kind of go a little bit together.

1825
01:46:02,039 --> 01:46:07,560
The intercessory prayers of the saints I've seen, like the

1826
01:46:07,720 --> 01:46:12,039
articulation of like the windows into heaven, or like kissing

1827
01:46:12,079 --> 01:46:14,600
the icons, like kissing a picture of like loved one,

1828
01:46:14,720 --> 01:46:15,279
or something like that.

1829
01:46:15,359 --> 01:46:17,279
Speaker 4: When I'm struggling to understand.

1830
01:46:16,840 --> 01:46:19,680
Speaker 5: I make the argument of Revelation five through nine.

1831
01:46:20,000 --> 01:46:20,199
Speaker 1: If that