WEBVTT 1 00:00:00.240 --> 00:00:03.040 I want to welcome everyone back to the Pea Show, 2 00:00:04.080 --> 00:00:06.040 part eleven of the Cold War series. 3 00:00:06.280 --> 00:00:08.160 How are you doing, Thomas, I'm. 4 00:00:08.039 --> 00:00:11.480 Doing very well man. Thank you for that you're hosting 5 00:00:11.519 --> 00:00:18.559 me as always today. I UH an aspect of the 6 00:00:18.760 --> 00:00:23.039 the later Cold War that that's been kind of neglected 7 00:00:23.079 --> 00:00:26.920 by a lot of historians. There's one guy in particular. 8 00:00:26.960 --> 00:00:30.039 His name is Mark Ambinder. It's kind of hard to 9 00:00:30.079 --> 00:00:33.719 put his politics on the map on some uh and 10 00:00:33.960 --> 00:00:37.479 some just take some kind of neo connage, something kind 11 00:00:37.479 --> 00:00:40.719 of like paleoliberal even called like Walter Mondale type liberal. 12 00:00:41.479 --> 00:00:44.479 He's become something of a presidential historian. He wrote a 13 00:00:44.520 --> 00:00:48.200 book called The Brink, which was about which is about 14 00:00:48.200 --> 00:00:51.359 the ABE. It's it's about about half it's about like 15 00:00:51.399 --> 00:00:54.640 the Able Archer War scare, and the rest is kind 16 00:00:54.640 --> 00:00:57.960 of about nuclear command and control in the final phase 17 00:00:57.960 --> 00:01:00.840 of the Cold War, and you know the deeper parodies 18 00:01:00.880 --> 00:01:03.600 they're in and kind of how this informed policy. And 19 00:01:03.759 --> 00:01:07.560 it's really fascinating book. But it's about the only guy 20 00:01:07.920 --> 00:01:11.439 I can think of who's written a dedicated book about 21 00:01:11.680 --> 00:01:18.840 like the post they taught pre Perastrika Cold War, which 22 00:01:18.840 --> 00:01:22.560 I don't really understand because that's tremendously important. A lot 23 00:01:22.560 --> 00:01:25.120 of the technologies we take for granted just in day 24 00:01:25.120 --> 00:01:28.400 to day life, you know, telecom stuff, it literally like 25 00:01:28.480 --> 00:01:31.120 came out of that epoch. I mean, this stuff was 26 00:01:31.959 --> 00:01:36.200 in people's contemplation, you know, in a research and development 27 00:01:36.280 --> 00:01:40.560 capacity for decades before to it. But the perfection of 28 00:01:40.560 --> 00:01:42.799 those things, you know, I mean, including the Internet, you know, 29 00:01:42.840 --> 00:01:46.840 the survivable command and control platform. I mean, this stuff 30 00:01:46.879 --> 00:01:50.280 all came out of like late Cold War, you know, 31 00:01:52.000 --> 00:02:00.280 strategic planning, and the degree to which the potentiality of 32 00:02:00.480 --> 00:02:04.560 and preparation for a general nuclear war kind of shaped 33 00:02:04.599 --> 00:02:07.599 American life in ways prosaic and profound that really can't 34 00:02:07.599 --> 00:02:15.120 be overstated. You know, I've people people under about forty five, 35 00:02:15.240 --> 00:02:18.680 they don't remember that, and even some people are older, 36 00:02:18.879 --> 00:02:21.360 it didn't like impact them in their daily life in 37 00:02:21.960 --> 00:02:25.680 concrete terms. So they think I'm overstating it, but I'm not. 38 00:02:26.719 --> 00:02:29.319 And if you look at the structure of the US government, 39 00:02:29.479 --> 00:02:31.639 you know, as I'm always coming back to this point, 40 00:02:32.560 --> 00:02:35.479 it's quite literally like structured to wage the Cold War 41 00:02:35.520 --> 00:02:39.280 and not much else. And the strategic nuclear dimension of 42 00:02:39.319 --> 00:02:47.360 that obviously became pre eminent owing to technological and existential realities. 43 00:02:48.000 --> 00:02:50.479 But you know, what I'm getting at is that this 44 00:02:50.639 --> 00:02:54.680 is not just some kind of like esoteric, like peculiar 45 00:02:54.719 --> 00:02:57.719 point of interest these people who you know, right, and 46 00:02:58.000 --> 00:02:59.680 it's big. It's big not to write about the deep 47 00:02:59.719 --> 00:03:02.319 State in varying capacities. You know, I guess, I guess 48 00:03:02.400 --> 00:03:06.599 because uh, William Cristal or whatever like you know, in 49 00:03:06.719 --> 00:03:10.400 guys of that kind of ilk to right for those 50 00:03:10.439 --> 00:03:13.199 kinds of publications, because you know, they since they've started 51 00:03:13.199 --> 00:03:15.599 like banging the term in like the last like five 52 00:03:15.639 --> 00:03:18.039 ten years now, it's like okay to do so. So 53 00:03:18.919 --> 00:03:21.680 you know, people write about these things, you know, in 54 00:03:21.719 --> 00:03:25.960 a very kind of contemporary way. But it's like, okay, 55 00:03:25.960 --> 00:03:28.280 if you want to understand the Deep State, you've got 56 00:03:28.280 --> 00:03:32.439 to understand the late Cold War. You know. It's that 57 00:03:32.599 --> 00:03:37.960 that's that's that's that's why these things exist. I mean 58 00:03:38.000 --> 00:03:42.400 they some some aspects are are emphasized more than others, 59 00:03:42.800 --> 00:03:44.840 and you know, in some kind attract budgetary pork more 60 00:03:44.840 --> 00:03:47.000 than others, you know, in the Postpullar wrapp Buck obviously, 61 00:03:47.639 --> 00:03:49.719 and like there's been cosmetic changes to a lot of 62 00:03:49.759 --> 00:03:52.919 these things, but that's just what they are. They're cosmetic changes. 63 00:03:53.360 --> 00:03:57.439 You know, they they came out of, they came out 64 00:03:57.479 --> 00:04:00.560 of the uh, the Cold War, and specif they came 65 00:04:00.599 --> 00:04:06.080 out of the strategic nuclear UH paradigm that uh, you know, 66 00:04:06.120 --> 00:04:14.479 the regime was was structured to UH wage what's anyway 67 00:04:14.759 --> 00:04:19.639 post Vietnam. I'm of the belief, uh from you know, 68 00:04:19.720 --> 00:04:26.439 seventy three to to UH to eighty three approximately, grenade 69 00:04:26.519 --> 00:04:28.879 Grenado was a was a was a big moral victory 70 00:04:28.920 --> 00:04:34.879 in addition, you know, being tactically significant in ways that 71 00:04:36.079 --> 00:04:38.560 I think most people don't really consider. I don't want 72 00:04:38.560 --> 00:04:41.879 to get into that yet, but the point being, let's 73 00:04:41.879 --> 00:04:45.680 say seventy three to eighty two, perhaps, I'm of the 74 00:04:45.720 --> 00:04:49.959 belief America was actively losing the Cold War militarily, Okay, 75 00:04:49.959 --> 00:04:54.319 politically no, in terms of values if you will, and 76 00:04:54.319 --> 00:04:59.199 and and and legitimacy, no, But that didn't really matter 77 00:04:59.319 --> 00:05:03.439 because the bad in the you know, the Cold War 78 00:05:03.519 --> 00:05:06.199 was the battle of hearts and minds after the after 79 00:05:06.199 --> 00:05:10.839 the nineteen fifties, I mean realistically out with the exception 80 00:05:10.920 --> 00:05:15.680 of Germany, which was owing the unfortunate accident of geography 81 00:05:17.000 --> 00:05:20.720 and geostrategic reality, you know, they they they had to 82 00:05:20.720 --> 00:05:22.639 fight a way to deal with the Soviet Union and 83 00:05:23.040 --> 00:05:26.399 the Communists, but no nobody in Europe. Nobody in Europe 84 00:05:26.439 --> 00:05:28.800 in the nineteen seventies and nineteen eighties was like, you 85 00:05:28.800 --> 00:05:30.839 know what we want, we want to Marxist Lenini state, 86 00:05:30.879 --> 00:05:32.480 we want we want to live like people do in 87 00:05:32.519 --> 00:05:35.800 the East Bloc. Like nobody thought that way, okay, And 88 00:05:35.879 --> 00:05:38.639 nobody in the developed world that you know, in North 89 00:05:38.680 --> 00:05:42.120 Asia thought that way. People who did think that way 90 00:05:42.680 --> 00:05:45.959 were in subsear and Africa, in Latin America, in the 91 00:05:46.000 --> 00:05:49.639 Middle East, you know, and in the Global South. This 92 00:05:49.800 --> 00:05:54.879 was still very much an animating principle, okay, and it 93 00:05:54.879 --> 00:05:58.879 could be foreseen pretty easily. It's like, okay, it doesn't 94 00:05:58.920 --> 00:06:01.480 matter if you know, in in the world in nineteen 95 00:06:01.519 --> 00:06:06.920 eighty three, you know, it was clear to everybody, and 96 00:06:07.000 --> 00:06:10.360 you know, kind of in in the free in the 97 00:06:10.399 --> 00:06:15.160 developed free world, that the Stalinist states just generated a 98 00:06:15.199 --> 00:06:18.279 lot of misery, created economies of shortage, you know, didn't 99 00:06:18.319 --> 00:06:22.680 deliver on these promises of of Tulluric utopia and you 100 00:06:22.680 --> 00:06:25.839 know plenty and really were just kind of uh, you know, 101 00:06:25.920 --> 00:06:29.560 miserable places to live that didn't matter, like it was 102 00:06:29.600 --> 00:06:34.399 foreseeable that you know, America could become this kind of 103 00:06:34.439 --> 00:06:38.879 garrison state literally surrounded by a third world you know, 104 00:06:38.959 --> 00:06:44.519 including you know, including Mexico and in Latin America that 105 00:06:44.639 --> 00:06:49.000 basically was solidly in the Soviet Camp, was animated by 106 00:06:49.000 --> 00:06:54.920 a revolutionary impulse towards Marcus Leninism, and uh, you know, 107 00:06:54.959 --> 00:06:59.279 the United States basically you know what like like like 108 00:06:59.360 --> 00:07:06.000 meaningful inner dependence as you know, economic or otherwise would 109 00:07:06.079 --> 00:07:09.079 would would just be cut off, okay, and the only 110 00:07:09.120 --> 00:07:11.839 meaningful currency would be, you know, the ability to project 111 00:07:11.839 --> 00:07:17.680 military power. But again, you know, if if if the 112 00:07:17.680 --> 00:07:24.519 global South and similarly situated developing states were pretty much 113 00:07:24.600 --> 00:07:27.639 all in the Soviet camp, you know, the ability to 114 00:07:28.079 --> 00:07:31.279 the ability to project hard power would have been profoundly 115 00:07:31.319 --> 00:07:35.680 compromised too. So it was foreseeable again, you know, like 116 00:07:35.720 --> 00:07:38.040 that's that's kind of like what Millis was getting out 117 00:07:38.040 --> 00:07:40.959 the Red Dawn scenario. Like, yeah, it was silly to 118 00:07:41.639 --> 00:07:46.079 you know, to to envision you know, Spetsna's parashooting into 119 00:07:46.600 --> 00:07:50.199 Colorado Springs and shooting up the local high school. But 120 00:07:50.480 --> 00:07:53.800 the political map that he kind of envisioned like an 121 00:07:53.839 --> 00:07:56.720 intro where it's like, you know, West Germany becomes this, 122 00:07:56.920 --> 00:07:59.519 you know West Germany with draws NATO because it's green, 123 00:07:59.639 --> 00:08:02.639 and so them government you know, decides to like just 124 00:08:02.680 --> 00:08:05.399 go all into the Soviet Union. NATO falls apart, the 125 00:08:05.399 --> 00:08:08.079 global South goes all in with Ivan, you know, so 126 00:08:08.120 --> 00:08:10.920 that you have like America kind of standing alone, you know, 127 00:08:11.600 --> 00:08:15.519 with a couple of remaining states like the UK and 128 00:08:15.600 --> 00:08:17.879 Australia that you know, really are kind of you know, 129 00:08:18.199 --> 00:08:21.879 not meaningful powers in their own right. And you know, 130 00:08:21.879 --> 00:08:24.279 it's it's it's a red world with America as kind 131 00:08:24.279 --> 00:08:28.120 of this is literally this like Garrison, Okay, I mean 132 00:08:28.120 --> 00:08:30.920 that was the real risk. By the late Cold War, 133 00:08:31.000 --> 00:08:34.279 post Vietnam, it wasn't that it didn't matter that you know, 134 00:08:35.159 --> 00:08:39.039 Marxist Lenini is Marxist Leninism had lost in like you know, 135 00:08:39.159 --> 00:08:42.720 the the marketplace of ideas or whatever, you know, people 136 00:08:42.720 --> 00:08:46.200 who still bandy Thomas Paine or whatever and claim that 137 00:08:46.279 --> 00:08:48.960 you know, through through like the process of reason and 138 00:08:49.000 --> 00:08:51.480 like meaningful discourse, we all like arrive with the truth. 139 00:08:51.879 --> 00:08:55.000 Like that doesn't mean anything in the world of power politics, 140 00:08:55.200 --> 00:08:59.000 and it certainly didn't mean anything amiss, you know what 141 00:08:59.159 --> 00:09:02.200 a miss you know what, in less delicate times, people 142 00:09:02.200 --> 00:09:04.919 are fruit. Was the colored revolt, you know, within the 143 00:09:04.960 --> 00:09:07.919 developing world. You know, I mean this this was very 144 00:09:08.000 --> 00:09:11.879 this very much could have become reality, and a Soviet 145 00:09:11.960 --> 00:09:16.879 Union a worse up pact that basically could plunder, you know, 146 00:09:17.039 --> 00:09:23.279 the the collective capital resources of you know, South Asia, 147 00:09:23.360 --> 00:09:27.639 SUPs in Africa, Latin America could pretty much like stagger 148 00:09:27.679 --> 00:09:30.799 on indefinitely. You know, I mean it doesn't matter if 149 00:09:31.480 --> 00:09:36.080 you know, the the value added in absolute terms to 150 00:09:36.159 --> 00:09:40.399 their economy is nil. It wouldn't matter if you know, 151 00:09:40.440 --> 00:09:43.120 they were experiencing you know, like one point two percent 152 00:09:43.200 --> 00:09:47.159 growth annually. You know, they could they could Certainly, the 153 00:09:47.200 --> 00:09:50.120 Soviets were certainly going at manufacturing guns, and they could 154 00:09:51.679 --> 00:09:55.279 and they could have they could poach a enough proverbial 155 00:09:55.320 --> 00:09:57.919 butter as they needed to if uh, you know, they 156 00:09:57.960 --> 00:10:02.000 had they had access to the world as they're kind 157 00:10:02.000 --> 00:10:04.960 of proverbial orchard doesn't work. So I think that's important 158 00:10:05.000 --> 00:10:10.360 to keep in mind. Okay, this is the world situation, uh, 159 00:10:10.679 --> 00:10:15.600 after America withdrew from Vietnam. Now Nixon, you know, Nixon 160 00:10:15.759 --> 00:10:20.080 was the author of the tent. I mean bresnev uh 161 00:10:20.840 --> 00:10:24.480 obviously had to be receptive to that. But uh, it 162 00:10:24.639 --> 00:10:29.039 really this, this really was a America was kind of 163 00:10:29.039 --> 00:10:33.919 determining the course of uh, the conflict paradigm in the 164 00:10:33.960 --> 00:10:37.559 developing world, because the Truman doctrine was what carried the day, 165 00:10:38.039 --> 00:10:42.559 and you know, Nixon, the Nixon doctrine superseded the Truman doctrine. 166 00:10:42.919 --> 00:10:45.919 You know. The next the Nixon doctrine, which was you know, 167 00:10:46.039 --> 00:10:50.200 announced formally as you know, Saigon as a as A 168 00:10:50.200 --> 00:10:54.639 as America transferred authority for uh, the defense of the 169 00:10:54.799 --> 00:10:57.639 Republic of Vietnam. You know, it's a Saigon, you know, 170 00:10:57.639 --> 00:11:00.559 and Nixon declared that, you know, a no uncertain terms, 171 00:11:01.080 --> 00:11:06.120 America is not gonna you know, take direct action to 172 00:11:06.200 --> 00:11:10.279 intervene in states where the internal situation you know, precludes 173 00:11:10.320 --> 00:11:14.759 those states from you know, resisting communist version from within 174 00:11:14.840 --> 00:11:20.080 or without you know, on on on their own terms. 175 00:11:20.799 --> 00:11:23.440 So that gave I think, uh, I mean that was 176 00:11:23.480 --> 00:11:27.159 just practical number one. I mean, there wasn't there wasn't 177 00:11:27.159 --> 00:11:30.080 the political will, you know, to wage another Vietnam War 178 00:11:30.120 --> 00:11:33.000 and subser in Africa or even in Latin America, you know, 179 00:11:33.000 --> 00:11:36.799 in nineteen seventy three. But also, uh, it kind of 180 00:11:36.799 --> 00:11:41.039 provided an opening to get the Soviets to the table 181 00:11:42.080 --> 00:11:46.679 without uh, without further compromising American credibility you know, in 182 00:11:46.720 --> 00:11:52.200 some in some kind of pitiable way. It didn't appear 183 00:11:52.240 --> 00:11:57.759 to be it. It didn't appear to be uh America 184 00:11:57.879 --> 00:12:00.200 like folding the flag and quitting the Cold War, or 185 00:12:00.559 --> 00:12:03.000 even have some hawks like interpreted it that way and 186 00:12:03.039 --> 00:12:06.080 the Soviets. What's important is the Soviets didn't interpret it 187 00:12:06.120 --> 00:12:13.279 that way. But the uh, the real uh, the real 188 00:12:13.399 --> 00:12:18.399 lynchpin of the tent was uh, the Salt Treaty strategic 189 00:12:18.600 --> 00:12:24.759 arms limitation talks. I'm not gonna bore everybody with, you know, 190 00:12:25.000 --> 00:12:28.559 the minutia of it. The important details is that it 191 00:12:28.679 --> 00:12:32.120 limited not just nuclear forces and being and the destructive 192 00:12:32.159 --> 00:12:36.559 power of existing platforms as regards like you know, how 193 00:12:36.600 --> 00:12:38.759 many warheads and what kind of throw weight and mega 194 00:12:38.799 --> 00:12:42.639 tonage could be packed onto those pre existing sets pre 195 00:12:42.799 --> 00:12:50.519 existing platforms, but it also limited It also limited the 196 00:12:50.720 --> 00:12:56.960 counter measures you know, deployment as well as purportedly uh 197 00:12:57.080 --> 00:13:01.440 development of countermeasures. The idea being that you know, emergent 198 00:13:02.000 --> 00:13:07.240 deeper parodies you know, including things like decoys, you know, 199 00:13:07.279 --> 00:13:12.679 including things you know like interceptor UH missiles you know, 200 00:13:12.759 --> 00:13:19.919 and including in including uh including next generation then next 201 00:13:19.919 --> 00:13:23.759 generation early warning systems. If this kind of tech could 202 00:13:23.799 --> 00:13:26.840 be frozen, or if not frozen, you know, agreed upon, 203 00:13:27.120 --> 00:13:29.639 you know, to not be deployed, that this would build 204 00:13:29.679 --> 00:13:34.120 in some kind of additional stability, which I think is 205 00:13:34.159 --> 00:13:40.399 incredibly fatuous. But that's a different issue. And then the 206 00:13:40.480 --> 00:13:44.120 event this was in May nineteen seventy two, UH, by 207 00:13:44.200 --> 00:13:49.039 nineteen seventy six, UH, a few things that happened to 208 00:13:49.519 --> 00:13:56.360 undermine this burgining deton regime, which ultimately was was as 209 00:13:56.639 --> 00:14:00.639 you know, was unceremoniously ended in nineteen seventy nine for 210 00:14:01.360 --> 00:14:03.200 one reason of material we'll get into in a minute. 211 00:14:03.279 --> 00:14:07.519 But a couple of a couple of things happened subsequent 212 00:14:07.759 --> 00:14:13.519 to sult First and foremost, UH, there's the nineteen seventy 213 00:14:13.519 --> 00:14:16.919 three war. On October sixth, nineteen seventy three, as people know, 214 00:14:20.759 --> 00:14:29.840 Syrian Egypt preemptively assaulted Israel. The Arab armies, particularly the 215 00:14:29.879 --> 00:14:36.240 Syrian Army, performed better than anticipated. Frankly, this UH, Israel 216 00:14:36.279 --> 00:14:39.639 had a real problem on its hands. In tactical terms. 217 00:14:41.320 --> 00:14:44.960 Israel responded by marrying nuclear war heads to their Jericho 218 00:14:45.039 --> 00:14:49.919 missile platforms in part to you know, try and terrify 219 00:14:49.960 --> 00:14:54.679 the Arabs into submission in part as a ployee to 220 00:14:54.720 --> 00:15:00.120 force a reluctant mixed administration to reprovision and resupply them 221 00:15:00.159 --> 00:15:03.679 because the Israelis were desperately running short ammunitions and everything 222 00:15:03.679 --> 00:15:08.960 else they needed. Deploy worked. And then Nixon tapes and 223 00:15:09.000 --> 00:15:12.120 hear Nixon and Kissinger and Nixon lamenting. You know, Uh, 224 00:15:12.320 --> 00:15:14.960 I'm not gonna repeat the language because they would probably 225 00:15:15.039 --> 00:15:19.759 upset the YouTube sensors and that sends up on YouTube. 226 00:15:20.120 --> 00:15:23.039 But you know, Nixon was not happy at the state 227 00:15:23.080 --> 00:15:30.360 of affairs. The Soviets responded by deploying service warfare frigates 228 00:15:30.360 --> 00:15:35.600 and amphibious assault craft to the port of Alexandria. And 229 00:15:35.639 --> 00:15:38.440 this was not publicized at the time, but the White 230 00:15:38.440 --> 00:15:43.960 House knew those service warfare frigates were carrying nuclear weapons. 231 00:15:46.120 --> 00:15:50.960 As the IDF surrounded the Egyptian Third Army, uh Brezhnev 232 00:15:53.120 --> 00:15:55.919 contacted the White House and said that if the Egyptian 233 00:15:56.039 --> 00:15:59.559 Army were surrounded and destroyed, the Egyptian Third Army were 234 00:15:59.559 --> 00:16:02.639 surrounded destroyed, and if the Audia have continued to Cairo, 235 00:16:03.759 --> 00:16:06.679 the Soviets were gonna deploy and intervene directly, you know, 236 00:16:06.720 --> 00:16:14.399 to save Egypt. Nixon responded UH by ordering death Con 237 00:16:14.519 --> 00:16:18.519 three alert status, the first time they had been such 238 00:16:18.519 --> 00:16:23.159 a raised an alert status since UH Cuba in sixty two. 239 00:16:26.039 --> 00:16:28.840 This was really, this was this was profoundly serious. Alert 240 00:16:28.840 --> 00:16:31.279 status wasn't what it is like after the Cold War 241 00:16:31.320 --> 00:16:32.679 in like post nine to eleven. It wasn't this like 242 00:16:32.759 --> 00:16:38.519 meaningless thing. It had actual It had actual significance and 243 00:16:40.120 --> 00:16:43.279 it acts it it in material in concrete terms. That 244 00:16:43.399 --> 00:16:48.759 changed the status of forces. Okay, it indicated real readiness 245 00:16:49.000 --> 00:16:53.399 to wage war, is what I mean. Okay, at deaf 246 00:16:53.480 --> 00:16:57.159 Con three. UH. During the Cold War, it meant that 247 00:16:57.360 --> 00:17:02.440 UH strategic nuclear bomber forces were on alert status such 248 00:17:02.480 --> 00:17:06.200 that in fifteen minutes they could be scrambled and deployed. UH. 249 00:17:06.319 --> 00:17:10.079 It meant it meant missilliers in their silos in order 250 00:17:10.160 --> 00:17:13.039 to strap in to like their command chairs and prepare 251 00:17:13.119 --> 00:17:18.519 for incoming uh ICDM assault. You know. So I mean 252 00:17:18.559 --> 00:17:23.039 it was. It was very very serious. The Soviets responded 253 00:17:23.079 --> 00:17:28.480 in kind the UH. The Soviet defenseman at the time 254 00:17:28.559 --> 00:17:34.880 was Gretzkoh It was soon to be replaced. He asked 255 00:17:34.920 --> 00:17:38.000 the Kremlin for seventy thousand troops to be mobilized and 256 00:17:38.000 --> 00:17:44.480 deployed in proximity to the battle space, which didn't happen. Obviously, 257 00:17:44.559 --> 00:17:47.880 why that didn't happen is not entirely clear. Did bresn 258 00:17:47.960 --> 00:17:54.319 have put the brakes on that at deliberately? Did the 259 00:17:54.359 --> 00:17:57.279 Soviet general staff decide to wait and see, It's not 260 00:17:57.359 --> 00:18:02.200 clear to me. According to UH, a guy named Andre 261 00:18:02.559 --> 00:18:09.880 Daniellevich who was a he was a colonel general or 262 00:18:09.880 --> 00:18:12.640 it's equivalent. I guess that'd be a three star. I 263 00:18:12.680 --> 00:18:15.519 think in the NAT old tronim like military guys in 264 00:18:15.519 --> 00:18:17.440 the comments correct me if I'm wrong, and I'm not 265 00:18:17.519 --> 00:18:24.759 a military fit. His testimony in the nineties that he 266 00:18:24.799 --> 00:18:28.119 gave to the Wilson Foundation in some of those ngeotypes, 267 00:18:28.200 --> 00:18:32.359 I think is instructive and I think it's credible. What 268 00:18:32.559 --> 00:18:35.920 he said was he said that the ninety Sentary three 269 00:18:35.920 --> 00:18:40.359 crisis exposed real weaknesses in the Soviet commanding control system 270 00:18:40.400 --> 00:18:42.839 and its ability to respond to crisis in the moment, 271 00:18:44.319 --> 00:18:49.000 and that the Soviet Union wasn't really capable. Is that 272 00:18:49.119 --> 00:18:53.119 the Soviet Union couldn't incrementally mobilize in that way. There 273 00:18:53.200 --> 00:18:59.519 was a binary kind of alert structure, like either you know, 274 00:19:00.200 --> 00:19:02.240 either you were at war, you were not. And when 275 00:19:02.240 --> 00:19:05.119 you were at war, either you know, the nuclear trigger 276 00:19:05.200 --> 00:19:07.119 was cocked and ready or there was no chance of 277 00:19:07.160 --> 00:19:12.640 that happening. So basically and interestingly, because you know, during 278 00:19:12.640 --> 00:19:18.440 the Tsarist era, one of the issues that one of 279 00:19:18.480 --> 00:19:21.920 the issues that uh Hoveg was dealing with in Germany 280 00:19:21.960 --> 00:19:23.559 and you know, the lead up to the Great War 281 00:19:24.160 --> 00:19:29.559 is that once like the tsar Is, a mobilization protocol 282 00:19:30.000 --> 00:19:33.640 was was triggered like very little could stop it, you know, 283 00:19:33.720 --> 00:19:35.599 and uh to put the brakes on it would mean 284 00:19:35.640 --> 00:19:38.039 that you know, the the Russian Empire returned to a 285 00:19:38.119 --> 00:19:42.880 state of uh, you know, of peace time vulnerability. So 286 00:19:43.000 --> 00:19:47.160 I think that's interesting, Okay, not just for trivial reasons, 287 00:19:47.200 --> 00:19:52.720 but at any event, the inability, the inflexibility and the 288 00:19:52.799 --> 00:19:58.599 lack of uh, you know, the lack of a nuanced 289 00:19:58.720 --> 00:20:04.599 UH alert structure was something that gave the Soviet General 290 00:20:04.680 --> 00:20:07.079 staff pause. And I mean the Soviet general staff it 291 00:20:07.119 --> 00:20:09.039 was modeled very much on like, you know, the old 292 00:20:09.079 --> 00:20:12.960 German general staff, and you know, as was the American 293 00:20:13.160 --> 00:20:15.200 as wasn't his the American joint She's a staff, So 294 00:20:15.200 --> 00:20:20.440 I mean these Danielovich was a powerful man and he 295 00:20:20.519 --> 00:20:24.359 also he was he was kind of the statistics and 296 00:20:24.440 --> 00:20:29.240 research man on the Soviet general staff. So what he 297 00:20:29.279 --> 00:20:31.960 did in nineteen seventy six, and this was not accidental 298 00:20:32.160 --> 00:20:36.839 nineteen seventy six is generally agreed upon some historians and 299 00:20:36.920 --> 00:20:41.519 some defense intelligence types positive nineteen seventy four or seventy 300 00:20:41.559 --> 00:20:44.480 five a handful as late in the nineteen seventy seven 301 00:20:44.799 --> 00:20:48.160 this was when the Soviets truly achieved strategic parody in 302 00:20:48.200 --> 00:20:52.559 terms of in terms of their nuclear forces and being okay. 303 00:20:52.599 --> 00:20:57.079 This is when the point at which inarguably the warsaw 304 00:20:57.119 --> 00:21:00.759 pick could fight a nuclear war against NATO and or 305 00:21:00.839 --> 00:21:07.880 the United States, you know, jointly or severally on uh on, 306 00:21:07.880 --> 00:21:11.000 on terms of parody as regards forces and being okay, 307 00:21:11.039 --> 00:21:16.640 they were always disadvantaged as regarded you know, the strategic 308 00:21:16.680 --> 00:21:20.680 nuclear forces until then, you know, despite despite you know, 309 00:21:20.720 --> 00:21:24.319 what the Pentagon claimed, you know, in the run up 310 00:21:24.319 --> 00:21:26.839 to the ninety sixty election, in spite of what you know, 311 00:21:28.000 --> 00:21:33.440 subsequent administrations alleged about you know, force levels. This this, 312 00:21:33.440 --> 00:21:36.680 this was the moment at which the strategic balance became 313 00:21:37.319 --> 00:21:42.640 you know, one of of true parody. But what Danielovitch 314 00:21:42.799 --> 00:21:50.720 did was he oversaw the first uh computer analysis scientifically 315 00:21:53.480 --> 00:22:02.440 structured quantitative simulation of a general nuclear war, okay, coding 316 00:22:02.480 --> 00:22:08.200 all available inputs, you know. And the Soviet general staff 317 00:22:08.279 --> 00:22:11.279 was pretty uncorrupted by ideology. You know. This was not 318 00:22:11.599 --> 00:22:14.200 you know, some kind of cheerleading exercise so that they 319 00:22:14.200 --> 00:22:17.319 could you know, deliver you know, some kind of hackneyed 320 00:22:18.640 --> 00:22:21.640 official statement, you know, to the to the General secretary 321 00:22:21.680 --> 00:22:24.640 and say like, you know, see, comrade, we we we 322 00:22:24.759 --> 00:22:26.640 can defeat the imperialist It was nothing like that. It 323 00:22:26.720 --> 00:22:33.440 was very legit. And what Daniellovich's conclusions were was it 324 00:22:34.880 --> 00:22:40.240 under best conditions and a general nuclear war, the Soviet 325 00:22:40.240 --> 00:22:43.759 military would be utterly powerless. If the USSR was hit 326 00:22:43.920 --> 00:22:47.000 with a splendid first strike, they have no ability to 327 00:22:47.039 --> 00:22:55.319 retaliate effectively. Okay. Even if early warning did perform adequately 328 00:22:55.880 --> 00:22:59.640 and the Soviets were able to retaliate, at least eighty 329 00:22:59.640 --> 00:23:03.000 million Soviet citizens would be dead, and god knows how 330 00:23:03.000 --> 00:23:05.759 many more you know, and more sow packed altes allied 331 00:23:05.920 --> 00:23:12.079 estates who are also targeted in varying capacities. In the aftermath, 332 00:23:14.400 --> 00:23:19.200 it'd be virtually impossible for the Soviet military to rebuild 333 00:23:19.200 --> 00:23:25.400 and reconstitute critical infrastructure, because over three quarters of heavy 334 00:23:25.400 --> 00:23:32.480 industry would have been just outright annihilated. And finally, Europe 335 00:23:32.480 --> 00:23:35.160 would would be reduced to a wasteland. Like even if 336 00:23:35.200 --> 00:23:38.240 you even if you reject the kind of Carl Sagan doomsday, 337 00:23:39.200 --> 00:23:46.160 you know, hypothesis of nuclear winter and all that kind 338 00:23:46.160 --> 00:23:50.160 of thing, there's no way Europe could survive a general 339 00:23:50.240 --> 00:23:52.279 nuclear war, you know, I mean, if you're you're talking 340 00:23:52.279 --> 00:23:56.279 about literally the death of Europe. And obviously that you know, 341 00:23:56.599 --> 00:24:01.319 had profound implications from the Soviet Union as well, you know. 342 00:24:04.279 --> 00:24:10.160 So what uh, what this led to was a couple 343 00:24:10.160 --> 00:24:18.400 of things. The way to really understand the way to 344 00:24:18.400 --> 00:24:22.720 really understand why the Soviets invaded Afghanistan owes to what 345 00:24:22.799 --> 00:24:27.519 I just described in terms of real anxieties about their 346 00:24:27.559 --> 00:24:32.119 ability to fight a nuclear war and survive, not even win, 347 00:24:32.319 --> 00:24:36.480 just to survive. Okay, Now, I know nobody likes the 348 00:24:36.519 --> 00:24:38.799 Russians these days, and I guess most people don't really 349 00:24:38.839 --> 00:24:42.279 like the Russians anyway. I'm not trying to be like 350 00:24:42.519 --> 00:24:46.480 Bigott or mean. I mean, it's a fact. Okay, however, 351 00:24:46.799 --> 00:24:54.240 anyone feels about Russia, whoeverybody felt about the Soviet Union, Russia, 352 00:24:54.759 --> 00:24:59.759 the Soviet Union. In the twentieth century, they lost more 353 00:24:59.799 --> 00:25:05.079 p led war then all other states combined. Okay, you know, 354 00:25:05.599 --> 00:25:08.119 in the between ninety forty forty five, like one in 355 00:25:08.240 --> 00:25:13.519 seven of their population was like died by war attrition, okay, 356 00:25:13.960 --> 00:25:16.720 or of starvation or in you know, a bombing raider 357 00:25:16.880 --> 00:25:24.160 in some way proximately caused by hostilities. I mean this 358 00:25:24.160 --> 00:25:29.160 this this to say this was impactful on their collective psyche, 359 00:25:29.319 --> 00:25:32.480 I mean doesn't even begin to describe, you know, the 360 00:25:32.519 --> 00:25:39.400 degree to which this informed policy. But beyond that, by uh, 361 00:25:39.759 --> 00:25:46.400 by nineteen seventy nine, you know, we're in under conditions 362 00:25:46.359 --> 00:25:52.640 of strategic true strategic parody. I mean potentially we're we're 363 00:25:52.680 --> 00:25:55.319 talking about the window of decision making an event of 364 00:25:55.359 --> 00:25:58.079 a general war of you know minutes, you know, like 365 00:25:58.119 --> 00:26:01.839 five or ten minutes or in best case scenario, you know, 366 00:26:01.839 --> 00:26:05.720 fifteen or twenty minutes. And you know, we're dealing with 367 00:26:06.920 --> 00:26:13.200 weapons systems, and we're dealing with the you know, levels 368 00:26:13.200 --> 00:26:19.240 of social organizations at scale wherein like human decision makers 369 00:26:19.240 --> 00:26:23.440 are increasingly being sidelined. You know that that was reality. Okay, 370 00:26:25.119 --> 00:26:27.799 like this idea that just oh well, if we have 371 00:26:28.400 --> 00:26:31.279 if we have sensible men, you know at the controls, 372 00:26:31.519 --> 00:26:34.359 you know, cooler heads will just prevail. And you know, 373 00:26:34.559 --> 00:26:37.519 it's unthinkable that some general nuclear war would happen. That 374 00:26:37.640 --> 00:26:40.519 was not the case at all. You can find yourself 375 00:26:40.559 --> 00:26:44.680 at war before you even realize what's happening. And in the 376 00:26:44.720 --> 00:26:50.880 case of nuclear war, again, we're talking about being forced 377 00:26:50.920 --> 00:26:55.160 to render decisions within minutes, you know, Uh, if you 378 00:26:55.160 --> 00:26:57.839 even realize you've been hit, you know, I mean there's 379 00:26:57.839 --> 00:27:03.480 that too. It Uh, the possibility of decapitation raises a 380 00:27:03.480 --> 00:27:11.759 whole new possibility or set of possibilities. You know, if 381 00:27:11.799 --> 00:27:16.839 the enemy can potentially achieve a splendid decapitation strike, then 382 00:27:16.880 --> 00:27:19.960 the issue becomes like, well, you know, how do I 383 00:27:19.960 --> 00:27:23.759 identify imminent indicators of attack before there's even you know, 384 00:27:24.880 --> 00:27:27.279 before there's even like a mobilization, or before like early 385 00:27:27.319 --> 00:27:31.960 warning you know, is even is even activated. You know. 386 00:27:32.160 --> 00:27:40.240 So these are not things that human minds can adequately identify, interpret, contemplate, 387 00:27:40.559 --> 00:27:45.720 and respond to. So we're talking about incredibly dangerous conditions. Okay, 388 00:27:46.839 --> 00:27:53.359 now I missed all of this, uh, this whole union 389 00:27:53.559 --> 00:27:56.720 and to their credit, to the to the credit of 390 00:27:56.720 --> 00:27:59.079 the General staff, I mean, as I indicated a moment ago, 391 00:27:59.680 --> 00:28:03.240 they were kind of the best of that system, them 392 00:28:03.240 --> 00:28:05.279 and probably some of the KGB. I mean, that's where 393 00:28:05.319 --> 00:28:09.359 I drop off came from. That's where mister Putin you know, 394 00:28:10.119 --> 00:28:17.319 uh rose to the ranks as well. After after this 395 00:28:17.400 --> 00:28:24.400 nineteen seventy six UH wargame exercise, the Soviets realized that, 396 00:28:25.039 --> 00:28:28.200 you know, they had to try and find a way 397 00:28:28.440 --> 00:28:33.599 to develop a flexible response whereby you know, they had 398 00:28:33.640 --> 00:28:36.720 the capability to fight and win a nuclear war or 399 00:28:36.759 --> 00:28:41.359 at least you know, respond to any nuclear assault with 400 00:28:41.440 --> 00:28:45.640 a devastating counter strike in the form of a survivable deterrent. 401 00:28:46.640 --> 00:28:50.400 But they realized that they had du they basically the 402 00:28:50.440 --> 00:28:54.839 Soviet Union by way of a frankly progressive minded general staff. 403 00:28:55.319 --> 00:28:59.359 They tried to implement their own revolution and military affairs. Okay, 404 00:28:59.519 --> 00:29:04.000 and this is uh, this is this is significant to 405 00:29:04.039 --> 00:29:07.799 the final phase of the Cold War. But what remained 406 00:29:07.839 --> 00:29:14.119 paramount was, uh, you know, was the ability of you know, 407 00:29:16.079 --> 00:29:19.119 the ability to survive a smudded for a strike or 408 00:29:19.160 --> 00:29:24.359 to deter it with you know, a survivable a survivable deterrent. 409 00:29:25.680 --> 00:29:34.000 So another uh, another Soviet military type who offered his testimony. 410 00:29:35.960 --> 00:29:40.680 You know, in the aftermath of nineteen ninety one was uh, 411 00:29:41.920 --> 00:29:48.400 a guy named Alexander like Kowski, a major general. Lakowski 412 00:29:48.519 --> 00:29:55.799 was present pretty much when you know, the the Inner 413 00:29:55.839 --> 00:29:58.000 polic Bureau, if we can call it that way, convened 414 00:29:58.000 --> 00:30:02.839 to discuss the invasion of Afghanistan. That's documented. So his 415 00:30:02.960 --> 00:30:06.440 testimony at least, uh, you know, I see no reason 416 00:30:06.480 --> 00:30:08.839 to think he's not a credible witness, but it's documented 417 00:30:08.880 --> 00:30:11.960 that he was present when he stated he was present, 418 00:30:12.119 --> 00:30:19.839 so you know, he's as much of a from him, 419 00:30:19.880 --> 00:30:23.240 we get as much of an insider's perspective on the 420 00:30:23.279 --> 00:30:28.279 decision making process as we're going to get. On December eighth, 421 00:30:28.400 --> 00:30:33.440 nineteen seventy nine, there was a meeting held in Bresnev's 422 00:30:33.440 --> 00:30:40.039 private office. You know, Bresnev was the General Secretary at 423 00:30:40.079 --> 00:30:42.599 the time still you know, uh that he would be 424 00:30:42.680 --> 00:30:44.519 until his death in nineteen eighty two, but he was 425 00:30:44.519 --> 00:30:48.759 increasingly you know, suffering dementia on a matter of health problems, 426 00:30:49.839 --> 00:30:52.680 I believe, as I've said before, that and drop of 427 00:30:54.119 --> 00:30:59.160 Gramco who was the Foreign minister, and Ustinov, who was 428 00:30:59.200 --> 00:31:01.759 then Secretary of Defense, and he was this big war 429 00:31:01.839 --> 00:31:05.119 hero like when you think of those guys of Red 430 00:31:05.200 --> 00:31:07.680 Army generals got like rose and rose and medals, you know, 431 00:31:07.759 --> 00:31:10.880 and and look like they're you know, they got they 432 00:31:10.880 --> 00:31:12.400 got like a viscigin looks like it's card out of 433 00:31:12.400 --> 00:31:16.000 Grantite or something like. Ustanov was that was kind of 434 00:31:16.000 --> 00:31:23.000 one of those guys. But the issue at hand, uh, 435 00:31:23.200 --> 00:31:27.799 was the present situation in Afghanistan. And then drop Off 436 00:31:27.839 --> 00:31:33.279 and Usanov in particular were gravely concerned about it. And 437 00:31:33.400 --> 00:31:36.240 what like Kowski says is he said that the way 438 00:31:36.279 --> 00:31:38.920 I drop of and and drop always holding court, it 439 00:31:38.960 --> 00:31:42.880 wasn't bridgment of and drop Off said that, look the 440 00:31:42.880 --> 00:31:48.119 efforts undertaken by the US intelligence apparatus, you know, Central Intelligence, 441 00:31:48.240 --> 00:31:52.200 d I A. You know, elements of the State Department 442 00:31:52.240 --> 00:31:57.559 that are in fact intelligence, you know oriented. He said that, Uh, 443 00:31:57.839 --> 00:32:01.079 their big plan is to beef up Herky, you know, 444 00:32:01.480 --> 00:32:07.559 concede the Turfs, you know, within reason whatever they want 445 00:32:07.839 --> 00:32:10.799 in Central Asia, you know, so long as the Turks 446 00:32:10.799 --> 00:32:12.680 are willing to play ball with a NATO war plan. 447 00:32:14.319 --> 00:32:19.559 And ultimately he said that the goal, the Turkish goal 448 00:32:19.599 --> 00:32:23.119 is to bring Sunni Moslims on the southern Soviet frontier, 449 00:32:23.440 --> 00:32:30.720 like into their number or orbit, and the US ambition 450 00:32:30.960 --> 00:32:34.839 is to encourage that sentiment, you know by what, by 451 00:32:34.880 --> 00:32:39.119 whatever means possible. Now, the reason for this was, among 452 00:32:39.160 --> 00:32:45.279 other things, by nineteen seventy nine, Soviet war planners realized 453 00:32:45.319 --> 00:32:48.240 that if America was going to launch a preemptive assault 454 00:32:48.279 --> 00:32:51.519 to the Soviet Union, it was going to basically force 455 00:32:51.559 --> 00:32:54.400 the Soviet Union to fight a two front nuclear war 456 00:32:54.599 --> 00:32:56.559 if you can think of nuclear wars that in fronts. 457 00:32:56.599 --> 00:32:59.160 But the point is they're going to assault from the 458 00:32:59.200 --> 00:33:02.720 Pacific ause what was from the West? Okay, They're gonna 459 00:33:02.720 --> 00:33:07.680 do that for a few reasons, World War three would 460 00:33:07.680 --> 00:33:12.039 have been decided by naval weapons platforms and eventually by 461 00:33:12.039 --> 00:33:15.160 those like an orbital space But by nineteen seventy nine, 462 00:33:16.559 --> 00:33:20.440 Asia would have been key for reasons that I we 463 00:33:20.480 --> 00:33:22.519 can get into at some point, but it's it's kind 464 00:33:22.519 --> 00:33:24.799 of too there's kind of too much there to you know, 465 00:33:26.359 --> 00:33:27.920 de vote with the rest of this episode to that 466 00:33:28.240 --> 00:33:32.480 and nothing else. But the big Soviet concern also was 467 00:33:32.519 --> 00:33:36.559 that Soviet Command to control to fight a nuclear war 468 00:33:36.720 --> 00:33:39.480 was based in Moscow, and it was based in Kazakhstan 469 00:33:40.200 --> 00:33:43.680 where stars where Star City is, you know, there's space 470 00:33:43.720 --> 00:33:46.759 Center to this day that's still are Russian space crafter 471 00:33:46.839 --> 00:33:54.759 launched from. The big concern was that pursing missiles deployed UH, 472 00:33:55.960 --> 00:34:01.200 you know, in proximity to Kazakhstan, would be targeted at 473 00:34:01.240 --> 00:34:06.160 Star City. And you know, again like if we I 474 00:34:06.160 --> 00:34:11.000 mean it's an imperfect descriptor, but if of a two 475 00:34:11.000 --> 00:34:14.199 front nuclear assault in the Soviet Union, it would be 476 00:34:14.239 --> 00:34:16.639 blinded and then it would be decapitated and that would 477 00:34:16.639 --> 00:34:22.679 be the end of it. So why the concern in Afghanistan? Well, 478 00:34:25.639 --> 00:34:30.079 Amin who was a communist, he was this revolutionary UH 479 00:34:31.119 --> 00:34:37.239 firebrain in Afghanistan, you know, who'd become uh, who'd become 480 00:34:37.280 --> 00:34:42.559 the president, and he was a dedicated Marxist Leninist. Oh 481 00:34:42.800 --> 00:34:46.320 to the kind of peculiarities of uh or are the 482 00:34:46.360 --> 00:34:51.159 kind of peculiarities of of of the culture there which 483 00:34:51.239 --> 00:34:53.760 I can't speak to in any kind of you know, 484 00:34:54.760 --> 00:34:58.599 meaningful capacity, but just generally and this is this is 485 00:34:58.639 --> 00:35:03.719 what like Kowski he stated, you know, Amen fell back 486 00:35:03.800 --> 00:35:06.880 a lot on kind of appeal to Islamic pietism and 487 00:35:06.960 --> 00:35:12.960 couching Marxist Leninists kind of gobbledygook in those terms. The 488 00:35:13.079 --> 00:35:15.800 Kremlin had a hard time kind of discerning those signals. 489 00:35:16.639 --> 00:35:21.280 They thought that Amen was likely gonna kind of court 490 00:35:21.280 --> 00:35:26.679 like an Islamist coalition around like a nominally Marxist Leninis garment, 491 00:35:27.079 --> 00:35:29.559 and then it was gonna pivot to the West through 492 00:35:29.639 --> 00:35:34.280 Turkey and become this client regime of the sort that 493 00:35:34.320 --> 00:35:36.559 America always wanted they ran to kind of become that 494 00:35:36.599 --> 00:35:40.320 would was gonna welcome, you know, force US to be 495 00:35:40.400 --> 00:35:43.679 based there, you know, including things like pursing two missile 496 00:35:43.679 --> 00:35:49.079 platforms and in the end drop of usanov gramco view 497 00:35:49.360 --> 00:35:52.360 like this was the checkmate scenario in the Cold War. 498 00:35:53.880 --> 00:35:58.440 And secondarily, a lot of people don't know this, Afghanistan 499 00:35:58.559 --> 00:36:07.360 actually has fairly stantial uranium deposits. Pakistan was literally at 500 00:36:07.400 --> 00:36:12.280 war at the time intermittently with the Soviet ally India, 501 00:36:12.559 --> 00:36:17.400 who was their head against China, which uh in turn, 502 00:36:18.079 --> 00:36:21.280 you know, uh, mister Kissinger and some of his successors 503 00:36:21.880 --> 00:36:25.440 and the Chinese accorded Pakistan and started giving them everything 504 00:36:25.440 --> 00:36:31.360 they needed to wage war with India. You know. Uh. 505 00:36:31.400 --> 00:36:33.760 So what I'm getting at is that this was this 506 00:36:33.920 --> 00:36:36.599 was not and drop off being crazy or this was 507 00:36:36.639 --> 00:36:40.880 not just Soviet paranoia, like this actually was very forward thinking, 508 00:36:41.360 --> 00:36:46.039 strategic logic, and they were one hundred percent wrong about 509 00:36:46.159 --> 00:36:48.679 I mean, he had no intention of doing that. He 510 00:36:48.840 --> 00:36:52.320 was what he appeared to be, which was a basically 511 00:36:52.840 --> 00:36:57.639 doctrinaire Marxist Leninist, you know, accounting thick out of the 512 00:36:57.639 --> 00:37:04.000 peculiar cultural nuances of of uh of of his country. 513 00:37:04.039 --> 00:37:11.599 But UH, Unfortunately what was decided was UH. At the 514 00:37:11.679 --> 00:37:15.119 conclusion of this meeting, like Cosky said, he was kind 515 00:37:15.159 --> 00:37:17.960 of sitting there the thing that this was just kind 516 00:37:17.960 --> 00:37:21.960 of like a typical like intelligence briefing, but and drop 517 00:37:22.000 --> 00:37:24.159 of just kind of like looked at, you know, every 518 00:37:24.159 --> 00:37:27.840 man in the room and said, well, you know, our 519 00:37:27.840 --> 00:37:29.719 plan is gonna be this. You know, we we've got 520 00:37:29.760 --> 00:37:33.519 to remove I mean, you know, by by way of 521 00:37:33.559 --> 00:37:37.000 special action, I mean, which everybody understand. Meant, you know, 522 00:37:37.159 --> 00:37:41.280 he's gonna be whacked. He's gonna be replaced with UH, 523 00:37:41.639 --> 00:37:46.159 with with Carmel Uh, who was the Soviet Union's preferred 524 00:37:46.480 --> 00:37:50.320 for whatever reason, the KGB said that this is the man, 525 00:37:52.360 --> 00:37:54.480 and we can why you know, it was just some 526 00:37:54.559 --> 00:37:57.599 kind of cipher. I don't know anything about the man 527 00:37:57.679 --> 00:38:00.199 beyond that, but you know he I believe hen til 528 00:38:00.239 --> 00:38:02.519 nineteen eighty six. So for Bosth of the Soviet war 529 00:38:02.559 --> 00:38:06.760 in Afghanistan, like he was at the helm and drop offs. Said, uh, 530 00:38:06.920 --> 00:38:10.039 in order to preserve you know, he anticipated, you know, 531 00:38:10.760 --> 00:38:14.639 some kind of smooth transition of power. But uh, you know, 532 00:38:15.599 --> 00:38:19.159 just in case, you know, he he said, we got 533 00:38:19.199 --> 00:38:21.920 a plan for the continency of civil unrest, and you know, 534 00:38:22.000 --> 00:38:26.000 deploy at least some contingent of forces to the ground 535 00:38:26.000 --> 00:38:36.320 on the ground there. And uh, this was put to uh. 536 00:38:36.679 --> 00:38:39.480 U said, I put this too, O Garkov, who was 537 00:38:39.559 --> 00:38:47.199 chief of the General staff, and he was outraged. And 538 00:38:47.320 --> 00:38:50.159 uh Usandov said, well, to be on the safe side, 539 00:38:50.199 --> 00:38:52.320 don't worry, We're going to deploy seventy five to eighty 540 00:38:52.360 --> 00:38:57.760 thousand troops in theater. Gharkov said, that's not going to 541 00:38:57.800 --> 00:39:00.119 be able to stabilize the situation. And this is the 542 00:39:00.199 --> 00:39:06.559 conventional military problem anyway, and uh, apparently Usanov said, are 543 00:39:06.599 --> 00:39:09.880 you saying, you know, comrade, are you suggesting that you 544 00:39:09.960 --> 00:39:12.159 you are to teach the you are to teach the 545 00:39:12.239 --> 00:39:18.079 poet girl. And reading between the lines, uh Ogarkhov realized 546 00:39:18.119 --> 00:39:23.639 that if he continued on this path of you know, 547 00:39:24.000 --> 00:39:29.440 conscientious resistance, he would be disappeared. If not physically, which 548 00:39:29.920 --> 00:39:34.119 was very possible. You know, he he would have found himself, uh, 549 00:39:34.199 --> 00:39:42.639 you know, unpersoned and some and some basic capacity the U. 550 00:39:46.119 --> 00:39:51.679 This tells you too about the divide between again the 551 00:39:51.719 --> 00:39:55.880 military leadership and uh the true kind of vanguard, which 552 00:39:56.079 --> 00:40:00.840 was of the Communist Party, I mean, you know, which 553 00:40:01.000 --> 00:40:06.760 was uh in drop Off by that point, um Gramco 554 00:40:06.880 --> 00:40:13.000 and uh Ustanov and uh, this was a totally unofficial 555 00:40:13.920 --> 00:40:18.719 meeting of hand picked officialdom. You know, this didn't go 556 00:40:18.760 --> 00:40:21.360 to the Supreme Soviet This, this didn't go to some 557 00:40:21.800 --> 00:40:27.239 you know, officially convened subcommittee of the polit Burro. There 558 00:40:27.280 --> 00:40:30.840 wasn't even any record of it other than the notes 559 00:40:30.880 --> 00:40:33.800 of the meeting that I just referenced when it drop 560 00:40:33.840 --> 00:40:37.480 Off died. Apparently the notes of this meeting were any safe. 561 00:40:37.679 --> 00:40:43.280 Every Soviet General secretary had had a personal safe, and 562 00:40:43.320 --> 00:40:47.199 when he died it was opened, which seems strange, almost 563 00:40:47.199 --> 00:40:50.280 like mafia lake in my opinion. Like I'm not being corny, 564 00:40:50.280 --> 00:40:57.159 I mean like quite literally when uh like when Bresnav died, 565 00:40:57.639 --> 00:40:59.719 I think he had like ten thousand dollars in American 566 00:40:59.800 --> 00:41:02.199 can which at that time was a lot of money. 567 00:41:02.280 --> 00:41:05.119 He had, he had he had like he he has. 568 00:41:05.239 --> 00:41:07.000 He had like some chiefs regal or some kind of 569 00:41:07.039 --> 00:41:09.920 like mid show off like brand of American liquor, and 570 00:41:10.039 --> 00:41:13.360 uh like a bunch of personal effects and drop Up 571 00:41:13.400 --> 00:41:15.840 had a whole lot of he had a whole lot 572 00:41:15.840 --> 00:41:19.599 of fairly sensitive stuff, including apparently the notes from this meeting, 573 00:41:19.599 --> 00:41:23.599 which was the only documentation that it even occurred, which 574 00:41:23.639 --> 00:41:27.760 is crazy because the Soviet Union, the Soviet was brazen. 575 00:41:27.840 --> 00:41:31.559 The Soviet Union in some ways was uh it did 576 00:41:31.679 --> 00:41:36.119 did didn't respect convention in the international system, you know, 577 00:41:36.280 --> 00:41:39.840 stuff like the downing of Flight oh seven and other things, 578 00:41:39.840 --> 00:41:43.000 but they were obsessed with their own like internal protocol, 579 00:41:43.039 --> 00:41:45.320 like this is something that just like wasn't done. Like 580 00:41:45.400 --> 00:41:47.280 you can tell, in my opinion that Soviet Union was 581 00:41:47.320 --> 00:41:50.159 in trouble at this point that they were doing things 582 00:41:50.239 --> 00:41:56.320 this way. This wasn't just ordinary. I mean, the Soviet 583 00:41:56.519 --> 00:41:59.480 was secretive and paranoid, but like not that this isn't 584 00:41:59.480 --> 00:42:04.840 how they did things, you know, and when uh when 585 00:42:05.039 --> 00:42:08.000 when even within the the inner party, literally you've got 586 00:42:08.000 --> 00:42:12.039 that kind of like mistrust, so you're resorting to this 587 00:42:12.119 --> 00:42:17.119 kind of ad hoc uh decision making, you know, with 588 00:42:17.280 --> 00:42:20.280 uh with kind of like a mafia coterie of official 589 00:42:20.360 --> 00:42:22.679 dumb you know who are loyal to like the defect 590 00:42:22.679 --> 00:42:25.960 though decision maker on more in peace questions like that's 591 00:42:26.719 --> 00:42:29.159 that that's a very very bad situation. I mean just 592 00:42:29.159 --> 00:42:33.840 in terms of the potential for you know, the potential 593 00:42:33.880 --> 00:42:39.320 for you know, uh, catastrophic decision making. But also it means, 594 00:42:40.000 --> 00:42:42.800 it means the proverbial center cannot hold. And I'm actually 595 00:42:42.840 --> 00:42:44.960 someone who thinks pretty highly even drop off in the 596 00:42:44.960 --> 00:42:53.400 bounded rationality of you know, rather the like the a 597 00:42:53.639 --> 00:42:58.360 moral you know discussion within an am world, purely a 598 00:42:58.440 --> 00:43:01.159 moral discussion of power politics, I think, and drop it 599 00:43:01.239 --> 00:43:03.199 was probably the best man the system produced other than 600 00:43:03.320 --> 00:43:13.639 steal and purely uh, you know, power political terms. But this, uh, 601 00:43:13.679 --> 00:43:17.039 this is how, this is what underlay the decision to 602 00:43:17.039 --> 00:43:22.280 go to war in Afghanistan. You know, it was not 603 00:43:22.519 --> 00:43:27.159 you know, to fight Islamic fundamentalism, like Islamic consciousness definitely 604 00:43:27.360 --> 00:43:30.440 was an aspect. It was a part of the constellation 605 00:43:31.440 --> 00:43:34.400 of factors, but not not in the way like people 606 00:43:34.400 --> 00:43:36.800 think about it. It wasn't because like Osama bin Laden was 607 00:43:36.880 --> 00:43:40.119 radicalizing people or something, or because the CIA created bin 608 00:43:40.199 --> 00:43:43.519 Laden or whatever kind of stupid stuff people say it 609 00:43:43.760 --> 00:43:48.320 very very much absolutely had to do with critical judgment 610 00:43:48.920 --> 00:43:54.000 relating to the you know, uh related to the nuclear paradigm, 611 00:43:54.440 --> 00:43:56.159 you know, and then and the need of the Soviets 612 00:43:56.159 --> 00:44:01.360 to protect at all costs key commanding COTRO infrastructure in 613 00:44:01.519 --> 00:44:06.920 Asia in order to survive of a bull from the 614 00:44:06.960 --> 00:44:11.920 blue as salt and preserve a survivable deterrent. And I 615 00:44:11.920 --> 00:44:14.920 think that's fascinating. I mean not just because I you know, 616 00:44:15.920 --> 00:44:17.480 I don't think it's just because I have a strong 617 00:44:17.519 --> 00:44:19.880 interest in the topic. I mean, this is a It 618 00:44:19.920 --> 00:44:24.360 goes to show you how during the Cold War, you know, 619 00:44:27.440 --> 00:44:31.920 warfare within very within, very secondary theaters, very peripheral theaters 620 00:44:31.960 --> 00:44:36.360 head you know, profound significance in a way that you 621 00:44:36.360 --> 00:44:39.159 know before a sense like just wouldn't like it's not 622 00:44:39.239 --> 00:44:44.239 emergent within you know, ordinary security paradigms. 623 00:44:44.920 --> 00:44:46.880 Let me ask you about let me get a subject 624 00:44:46.920 --> 00:44:51.239 in here. It's probably too much right now to talk about. 625 00:44:51.360 --> 00:44:54.360 Maybe for a subsequent episode, are you going to talk 626 00:44:54.400 --> 00:44:58.480 anything at all about what the Carter White House had 627 00:44:58.519 --> 00:45:03.320 to do with possibly you know, there's that famous, uh, 628 00:45:03.800 --> 00:45:08.239 the famous line of we're gonna give them, We're gonna 629 00:45:08.239 --> 00:45:15.119 give Russia their Vietnam by pushing them into the Afghanistan conflict. 630 00:45:15.880 --> 00:45:18.599 That or ride somewhat later, like as Carter was going 631 00:45:18.639 --> 00:45:22.440 out movie Charlie Wilson's War. I think it's kind of lame, 632 00:45:22.800 --> 00:45:25.159 and it makes Wilson himself, I look this great. It 633 00:45:25.159 --> 00:45:26.920 makes him look at this big like playboy and this 634 00:45:27.039 --> 00:45:29.519 like great guy as well as like this kind of 635 00:45:29.719 --> 00:45:37.519 strategic genius to realize that, you know, there's a soft vulnerability, 636 00:45:37.519 --> 00:45:41.199 as it were in Afghanistan. When it became clear of 637 00:45:41.239 --> 00:45:46.440 the Afghames we're gonna fight and the Caesar of the 638 00:45:46.480 --> 00:45:54.440 Grand Mosque by extremists in Saudi Arabia, including a lot 639 00:45:54.480 --> 00:45:58.039 of guys who ended up joining Bin Laden himself, that 640 00:45:58.840 --> 00:46:03.239 the Iranian Revolution, ironically, because I mean, you know, the 641 00:46:03.280 --> 00:46:06.559 first two Islamic republic revolutionary Islamic Republic was like a 642 00:46:06.559 --> 00:46:13.800 Shia republic that very much inspired Salafi uh muja Hadeen types. 643 00:46:14.880 --> 00:46:19.840 These things kind of coalesced, and you know, guys from 644 00:46:19.880 --> 00:46:25.599 far and wide started streaming into Afghanistan to fight the communists. 645 00:46:26.119 --> 00:46:30.400 And I don't think people really saw that coming. When 646 00:46:30.440 --> 00:46:34.920 that became clear, Uh, it was around like Carter was 647 00:46:34.960 --> 00:46:37.320 on his way out. Reagan was on his way in, 648 00:46:37.599 --> 00:46:42.400 and the Reagan doctrine, you know, for the minute Reagan 649 00:46:42.400 --> 00:46:46.599 took the oath of office, it was clear, uh that 650 00:46:46.920 --> 00:46:49.639 you know, the team b uh Kodian went out and 651 00:46:49.639 --> 00:46:52.679 the Reagan doctrine was like, we're gonna fight Ivan pretty 652 00:46:52.760 --> 00:46:55.719 much wherever he's insinuated, and we're gonna give the people 653 00:46:55.800 --> 00:47:02.400 under arms. We're fighting the reds anything they needed. What 654 00:47:02.480 --> 00:47:07.039 Carter did, when I'm gonna get to momentarily, Carter deserves 655 00:47:07.079 --> 00:47:13.960 a lot of credit. Carter totally changed the command and 656 00:47:14.000 --> 00:47:21.360 control structure and brought it back within constitutional parameters as 657 00:47:21.400 --> 00:47:25.199 well as just you know, putting an end of the 658 00:47:25.280 --> 00:47:29.559 kind of garbage UH that UH had made America vulnerable 659 00:47:29.920 --> 00:47:34.119 and UH strategic nuclear terms. You know. Carter said that 660 00:47:34.199 --> 00:47:39.280 like you know this, you know, this centering debate around 661 00:47:39.599 --> 00:47:42.159 you know, mutually assured destruction, which never was anything more 662 00:47:42.199 --> 00:47:45.280 than a talking point. Anyway, that's over with. You know, 663 00:47:45.320 --> 00:47:48.199 we're gonna I'll I'm gonna get into that now, Like 664 00:47:48.280 --> 00:47:56.039 it was. The issue was this okay by by the 665 00:47:56.039 --> 00:48:00.440 time Carter took office. Carter realized very quickly a few 666 00:48:00.440 --> 00:48:04.599 things were a foot. First of all, Strategic Air Command 667 00:48:05.000 --> 00:48:07.880 had just decided by that point that in the event 668 00:48:07.920 --> 00:48:10.039 of the general nuclear war, the president and all civilian 669 00:48:10.039 --> 00:48:13.360 decision makers just going to be dead within minutes. So 670 00:48:13.920 --> 00:48:16.360 why bother you know, really like advising the president about 671 00:48:16.440 --> 00:48:21.400 nuclear war decision making anyway, because Strategic Air Command from 672 00:48:21.719 --> 00:48:25.679 the looking glass a wax aircraft, we're just going to 673 00:48:25.760 --> 00:48:28.559 like fight the war, you know, from that command post. 674 00:48:28.599 --> 00:48:30.960 And oh well, it sucks the president's dead, but that's 675 00:48:30.960 --> 00:48:35.519 just the way it is. Carter said, that's not acceptable. Okay. 676 00:48:35.679 --> 00:48:38.079 First of all, the President of United States is the 677 00:48:38.079 --> 00:48:43.199 President of United States. You know, he's the sole national 678 00:48:43.320 --> 00:48:48.559 representative the people of the American people. Secondly, Article two 679 00:48:49.960 --> 00:48:53.119 confers upon the president, you know, uh, the power of 680 00:48:53.119 --> 00:48:55.719 commander in chief. It doesn't confer that upon Strategic Air 681 00:48:55.760 --> 00:48:59.480 Command or like General Curtis Leamy or General Thomas Powers 682 00:48:59.559 --> 00:49:07.440 or General whoever. Okay, that's parently and constitutional. Finally, what 683 00:49:07.440 --> 00:49:11.000 what the hell are we doing just saying like, you know, 684 00:49:11.119 --> 00:49:13.000 we're just gonna throw our hands at and accept that 685 00:49:13.079 --> 00:49:15.559 like the government is gonna die immediately an event of war. 686 00:49:16.039 --> 00:49:17.960 Like that's not that's not how you're prepared to fight 687 00:49:18.039 --> 00:49:21.719 and win a war. So what Carter did was and 688 00:49:21.760 --> 00:49:25.960 these measures weren't perfected and implemented until about eighty five 689 00:49:26.000 --> 00:49:32.920 eighty six. But a list of a designated national command 690 00:49:32.960 --> 00:49:36.400 authorities what's called national command authorities. There are people from 691 00:49:36.400 --> 00:49:39.360 the president on down, you know, all the way down 692 00:49:39.519 --> 00:49:42.519 like forty people total. You know, if like one man 693 00:49:42.599 --> 00:49:45.119 and they're almost aways men is dead, the next one 694 00:49:45.280 --> 00:49:50.679 will take up a command and control authority. This is 695 00:49:50.679 --> 00:49:54.239 a pre cell phone and pre GPS. So all these 696 00:49:54.280 --> 00:49:58.960 people they were issued ID cards that you know, we're 697 00:49:59.760 --> 00:50:04.960 we're or where. They were given a cipher that upon 698 00:50:05.079 --> 00:50:10.320 being contacted you know by sick nor ed an event 699 00:50:10.360 --> 00:50:13.280 of war, you know, they they'd be able to reply 700 00:50:13.360 --> 00:50:15.239 to a challenge with like the correct you know, like 701 00:50:16.199 --> 00:50:20.239 the cipher code or whatever. But the nancial command authorities 702 00:50:20.239 --> 00:50:22.519 with the people who would direct nuclear war, like an 703 00:50:22.519 --> 00:50:25.159 event that the president and his cabinet are dead, and 704 00:50:25.280 --> 00:50:29.639 like on down the line. Okay, designated safe houses. Some 705 00:50:29.760 --> 00:50:34.920 are on military bases. Some were purpose structures that were 706 00:50:34.960 --> 00:50:37.360 designed and built for this purpose that they could be 707 00:50:37.360 --> 00:50:43.280 shuttled due to survive the initial assault. They were to 708 00:50:43.519 --> 00:50:49.239 report in to uh seck nor ed every day as 709 00:50:49.280 --> 00:50:51.719 to what they're you knows, as did their goings coming, 710 00:50:51.760 --> 00:50:54.559 some goings when they left town. You know, they had 711 00:50:54.559 --> 00:50:57.000 to they had to report like every six hours or something. 712 00:50:57.480 --> 00:51:03.239 I mean this this is a revolutionary system, Okay. Carter 713 00:51:03.400 --> 00:51:10.519 also that was President's director of fifty eight. Carter said that, 714 00:51:11.159 --> 00:51:15.199 you know, he reiterated that America will never, you know, 715 00:51:15.639 --> 00:51:19.400 will never utilize a nuclear first strike in order to 716 00:51:19.440 --> 00:51:26.480 resolve a national security exceptency. However, if America finds itself 717 00:51:26.480 --> 00:51:28.719 in a nuclear war, and this is in the language 718 00:51:28.719 --> 00:51:31.360 of PD fifty nine, America will fight to win a 719 00:51:31.440 --> 00:51:35.480 nuclear war, and it will develop and maintain forces in 720 00:51:35.599 --> 00:51:38.559 being to fight and win a nuclear war against the 721 00:51:38.559 --> 00:51:44.719 Soviet Union Warsaw Pact, and that represented a that represents 722 00:51:44.719 --> 00:51:47.000 this was the end of daytime. Okay. This is America 723 00:51:47.079 --> 00:51:50.360 saying that, you know, if God forbid, we go to 724 00:51:50.400 --> 00:51:55.760 war with Warsaw Pact, you know, and this escalation to 725 00:51:56.039 --> 00:51:59.320 general nuclear war like America's gonna treat nuclear war like 726 00:51:59.320 --> 00:52:02.880 it does any other conflict modality. America is gonna fight 727 00:52:02.920 --> 00:52:06.320 to win a nuclear war. That's also one of the 728 00:52:06.360 --> 00:52:10.840 reasons why continuity of government is important. That there's nobody 729 00:52:10.920 --> 00:52:15.840 negotiate the end of the war is like, that's not 730 00:52:16.880 --> 00:52:20.760 that's not reasonable, you know. So the idea is, you know, 731 00:52:21.320 --> 00:52:27.800 civilian control as intended and demanded by the Constitution is 732 00:52:27.880 --> 00:52:31.679 uh is gonna be guaranteed. You know, through these continuity 733 00:52:31.719 --> 00:52:38.679 of government measures. We're gonna spare no expense in maintaining 734 00:52:38.719 --> 00:52:42.400 a survivable deterrent and our strategic doctrine is gonna be 735 00:52:42.440 --> 00:52:44.719 an event of war. We're going to fight and win. 736 00:52:44.760 --> 00:52:47.519 We're gonna fight to win a nuclear war. National command 737 00:52:47.599 --> 00:52:54.920 authorities are UH are gonna seek to endstilities as quickly 738 00:52:54.920 --> 00:52:58.320 as possible, if that is possible. But uh, there's no 739 00:52:58.360 --> 00:53:00.239 where this horseshit of you know, like we will not 740 00:53:00.280 --> 00:53:02.599 fight a nuclear war in these weapons can never be used. 741 00:53:02.599 --> 00:53:04.519 It's like, you know, you threaten those nuclear weapons, he 742 00:53:04.519 --> 00:53:07.519 can deploy those weapons. You know, we're in a wage 743 00:53:07.559 --> 00:53:15.239 total nuclear war against you in kind and drop of 744 00:53:16.880 --> 00:53:21.159 who is becoming more powerful, you know, pretty much every 745 00:53:21.239 --> 00:53:25.119 day and in the final months of the bresion of regime. 746 00:53:26.559 --> 00:53:29.239 The way he interpreted that, and he could say, this 747 00:53:29.280 --> 00:53:34.199 is the most cunitive possible way, but just in realist terms, 748 00:53:35.440 --> 00:53:41.079 if your enemy suddenly and kind of jarringly adopts a 749 00:53:41.119 --> 00:53:46.119 different strategic posture that tends to be a war indicator. 750 00:53:46.320 --> 00:53:48.599 I mean, not like not of imminent attack or something. 751 00:53:49.519 --> 00:53:53.239 But that's pretty much exactly what the German Reich did, 752 00:53:53.280 --> 00:53:56.000 what the Kaiser Reich did. What I mean that, I'm 753 00:53:56.039 --> 00:53:58.320 not saying, oh, like the Germans are bad. I'm saying 754 00:53:58.320 --> 00:54:02.440 that in the Russian experience, when their primary adversary does this, 755 00:54:03.320 --> 00:54:06.480 it means that something is afoot, you know, and that 756 00:54:06.639 --> 00:54:11.159 something usually is that, you know, the executive of the 757 00:54:11.639 --> 00:54:17.039 adversarial power was preparing the population to mobilize for war, 758 00:54:17.400 --> 00:54:19.159 or at least he's doing what he has to do 759 00:54:19.519 --> 00:54:23.079 in order to concentrate war fighting authority in his office 760 00:54:23.480 --> 00:54:25.519 so that he has that option in order to use, 761 00:54:25.559 --> 00:54:29.320 as you know, a as leverage against the Russians. And 762 00:54:29.360 --> 00:54:31.519 there is some truth to that. I'm not gonna lie, 763 00:54:31.800 --> 00:54:33.800 and that's that's not good or bad. I mean, that's 764 00:54:33.840 --> 00:54:43.039 just state craft. But arguably this caused an escalation intensions. 765 00:54:43.119 --> 00:54:45.960 But again, I mean, the Soviet Union had just gone 766 00:54:46.000 --> 00:54:51.239 into Afghanistan, you know, I mean, it's not and you know, 767 00:54:51.400 --> 00:54:54.079 one of the problems with these treaties, however well intentioned, 768 00:54:54.119 --> 00:54:58.639 they were like salt and salt too, which was the 769 00:54:58.719 --> 00:55:02.239 Cabals put on that by the invasion with Afghanistan by 770 00:55:02.280 --> 00:55:04.880 the way, and then later the Start treaties. I mean, 771 00:55:04.920 --> 00:55:09.000 even if you I I think, on principle, on principle, 772 00:55:09.039 --> 00:55:12.039 I have a problem with that kind of uh, with 773 00:55:12.039 --> 00:55:16.840 with those kinds of agreements, because because bargaining away your 774 00:55:16.920 --> 00:55:21.639 preperaatedness and ability to survive is not legitimate. I realized 775 00:55:21.679 --> 00:55:24.400 the Cold War was unusual conditions. But I mean, even 776 00:55:25.280 --> 00:55:28.079 even if you think that those that sort of thing 777 00:55:28.119 --> 00:55:34.119 is the most well intentioned, you know, mechanism for preserving 778 00:55:34.159 --> 00:55:38.480 the piece, you can't somehow like stop technology, you know, 779 00:55:38.519 --> 00:55:40.800 and I mean the usued with deeper parodies is that. Yeah. 780 00:55:40.840 --> 00:55:44.000 A lot of this stuff that made nuclear weapons more accurate, 781 00:55:44.119 --> 00:55:48.719 more deadly, more powerful was because guys that Los Alamos 782 00:55:48.840 --> 00:55:52.400 or you know, guys that in Kazakhstan and USSR. You know, 783 00:55:52.440 --> 00:55:56.800 we're like developing you know, weapons purpose tech to do that. 784 00:55:57.199 --> 00:56:00.000 But other stuff like commanding control tech. A lot of 785 00:56:00.159 --> 00:56:04.199 that stuff just it emerges. It's emergent, you know, due 786 00:56:04.239 --> 00:56:06.960 to all kinds of endeavors, you know, some profit driven, 787 00:56:07.119 --> 00:56:09.920 some not, some military purpose some not. I mean you 788 00:56:10.559 --> 00:56:12.559 can't just say like we're gonna we're not gonna know 789 00:56:12.679 --> 00:56:14.760 things that we come to know because we got to 790 00:56:14.800 --> 00:56:17.639 like keep weapons from becoming even more dangerous, you know. 791 00:56:17.760 --> 00:56:22.079 So that and that's really that's really what SDI was about. 792 00:56:22.159 --> 00:56:24.800 And I think we're coming up on about an hour. 793 00:56:25.960 --> 00:56:28.440 We'll get into that stuff next time, as well as 794 00:56:29.360 --> 00:56:32.679 Able Archer and Granada and all that fun stuff. And 795 00:56:33.360 --> 00:56:35.159 like I said before, I can't remember if we were 796 00:56:35.159 --> 00:56:37.440 recording already or not, but a lot of the fellows 797 00:56:37.920 --> 00:56:40.559 they want us to talk about stuff, especially like especially 798 00:56:40.599 --> 00:56:42.519 a lot of like the English guys and French dudes. 799 00:56:42.920 --> 00:56:44.559 You're not a lot of Europeans like fought in in 800 00:56:44.599 --> 00:56:46.760 Goola and stuff, and it's just like a cool conflict. 801 00:56:47.920 --> 00:56:50.320 We should do a dedicated episode about stuff like the 802 00:56:50.360 --> 00:56:54.239 Dominican Republic, about you know, like Latin America and the 803 00:56:54.280 --> 00:56:56.840 Contract War and about like in Gola. I want to 804 00:56:56.880 --> 00:56:59.480 do that, like a dedicated episode. If that's cool, it's 805 00:56:59.480 --> 00:57:00.920 your show. I want to tell you, like this is 806 00:57:00.920 --> 00:57:01.519 what we should do. 807 00:57:02.039 --> 00:57:02.760 That sounds good. 808 00:57:03.760 --> 00:57:05.760 Yeah, yeah, thanks man, I really enjoyed this. 809 00:57:06.320 --> 00:57:08.199 Yeah, plugs. 810 00:57:09.719 --> 00:57:11.599 Yeah, for the time being. Can find me on Twitter. 811 00:57:11.679 --> 00:57:15.519 I don't know how long it will lasts at real 812 00:57:15.679 --> 00:57:21.119 underscore Thomas seven seven seven. I relaunched a Telegram channel. 813 00:57:22.000 --> 00:57:25.159 Just look for Thomas seven seven seven or three seven Mafia. 814 00:57:25.280 --> 00:57:28.360 You will find it. I'm gonna be more active on 815 00:57:28.519 --> 00:57:30.480 I'm gonna be active on there on the regular starting 816 00:57:30.480 --> 00:57:32.679 this weekend. I've got like too much shit going on 817 00:57:32.760 --> 00:57:36.280 right this minute. But join the channel. I'm gonna try 818 00:57:36.320 --> 00:57:39.880 and get it popping again. You'll find me on substick 819 00:57:40.440 --> 00:57:43.519 that's what the podcast is. Real Thomas seven seven seven 820 00:57:43.559 --> 00:57:46.599 dot subsec dot com. I am launching my YouTube channel. 821 00:57:46.639 --> 00:57:49.199 I know there's been like many many delays, things are 822 00:57:49.199 --> 00:57:52.079 coming together. I got an incredible editor. I've got a 823 00:57:52.079 --> 00:57:54.800 lot of people helping me because I frankly I don't 824 00:57:54.840 --> 00:57:58.440 know about video protoc from at all. I promised it's 825 00:57:58.480 --> 00:58:02.199 coming imminently, hopefully by next week. But it's coming. So 826 00:58:02.280 --> 00:58:07.840 that's and that's Thomas TV's on YouTube. But for Thomas TV, 827 00:58:08.199 --> 00:58:10.320 the first T is a seven and you will find it. 828 00:58:11.039 --> 00:58:12.880 That's all I got, all right, So. 829 00:58:12.880 --> 00:58:15.519 The next time I appreciate it, Thomas, thank you peg. 830 00:58:18.039 --> 00:58:20.719 I want to walk on everyone back to the Pekana show. 831 00:58:22.039 --> 00:58:24.440 I've been waiting for this one, part twelve the Cold 832 00:58:24.440 --> 00:58:26.519 War series What's happening in Thomas? 833 00:58:26.880 --> 00:58:30.000 Hi? How are you? Thanks as always for hosting me. 834 00:58:30.239 --> 00:58:34.119 It's a great pleasure and a great honor and a privilege, legit. 835 00:58:34.159 --> 00:58:34.840 Thank you very much. 836 00:58:35.239 --> 00:58:35.880 Oh, no problem. 837 00:58:35.920 --> 00:58:39.079 I'm glad you're feeling better, and yeah, let's get down 838 00:58:39.119 --> 00:58:39.400 to it. 839 00:58:40.000 --> 00:58:48.800 Yes, sir, I want to talk about the strategic paradigm 840 00:58:49.239 --> 00:58:53.000 in Reagan's first term, because that's essential to understand really 841 00:58:53.079 --> 00:58:57.239 the final phase of the Cold War and the reason 842 00:58:57.280 --> 00:59:00.880 why it a resolution was really forced. You know, we'll 843 00:59:00.880 --> 00:59:04.840 get into gorrichawf like next episode when I get back 844 00:59:04.840 --> 00:59:08.400 from this weekend trip. Will we'll deal kind of more 845 00:59:08.440 --> 00:59:11.679 with the Soviet side, you know, just conceptually, but also 846 00:59:11.960 --> 00:59:15.280 just in terms of you know, the factual record, because 847 00:59:15.280 --> 00:59:17.480 I realized we haven't dedicated a lot of attention to 848 00:59:17.519 --> 00:59:23.719 that yet. But you know, the the degree to which 849 00:59:24.199 --> 00:59:29.199 human decision makers were becoming less and less significant within 850 00:59:30.760 --> 00:59:36.840 the strategic arms race, and I mean were fighting in general. 851 00:59:38.599 --> 00:59:40.599 If you're talking about you know, kind of the zenith 852 00:59:40.639 --> 00:59:44.320 of of of nuclear war technology as it was in 853 00:59:44.679 --> 00:59:49.760 you know, nineteen eighty one, that can't be overstated. And 854 00:59:49.800 --> 00:59:54.800 this idea that you know, just cooler heads could prevail, 855 00:59:55.079 --> 01:00:01.079 you know, to invoke Curtis LeMay's kind of for rism. 856 01:00:01.199 --> 01:00:04.920 That's not really possible when you're talking about uh, you know, 857 01:00:05.039 --> 01:00:13.920 certain certain technological variables as well as certain uh you know, 858 01:00:14.360 --> 01:00:17.400 as well as organization at scale of hundreds of millions 859 01:00:17.440 --> 01:00:21.039 of people quite literally, you know, it's not you can't 860 01:00:21.079 --> 01:00:26.159 even if you're a chief executive or a general who's 861 01:00:26.159 --> 01:00:30.880 got a great deal of of authority, you know, intrinsic 862 01:00:31.000 --> 01:00:34.320 not just to his mandate, but you know, in terms 863 01:00:34.360 --> 01:00:36.760 of you know, key decision makers subservient to him being 864 01:00:36.760 --> 01:00:40.239 willing to execute his orders basically without a centation. It's 865 01:00:40.280 --> 01:00:43.639 just not possible. Okay, It's that's not the way, that's 866 01:00:43.679 --> 01:00:47.320 not the way. That's not the way human systems work, 867 01:00:50.199 --> 01:00:54.119 and that calls for certain remedies when we're talking about 868 01:00:54.159 --> 01:00:58.559 something like nuclear war planning, you know, where quite literally 869 01:00:58.599 --> 01:01:01.280 decisions need to be rendered in and it's you know, 870 01:01:02.960 --> 01:01:06.519 but even where that not you know, necessary kind of 871 01:01:06.519 --> 01:01:11.679 remedial measure, you know, to apply and aim to research 872 01:01:11.719 --> 01:01:17.360 and perfect an ongoing way. It was understood that you know, 873 01:01:17.679 --> 01:01:22.039 the way man related to technology was becoming kind of 874 01:01:22.079 --> 01:01:26.760 the key question, not just in terms of fighting future wars, 875 01:01:26.800 --> 01:01:30.920 but you know, in terms of production modalities, in terms 876 01:01:30.920 --> 01:01:35.199 of how you know, people at scale perceive information and 877 01:01:35.639 --> 01:01:41.280 you know develop uh developed political sensibilities, which which totally 878 01:01:41.360 --> 01:01:43.559 changed with the advent of television, you know, and the 879 01:01:43.639 --> 01:01:48.960 ability to broadcast you know, over across thousands and thousands 880 01:01:49.000 --> 01:01:51.840 of miles, you know, and it quite literally turned the 881 01:01:51.840 --> 01:01:56.880 world into one place in terms of you know, the uh, 882 01:01:56.599 --> 01:02:04.199 the the concepts being you know asserted and early on 883 01:02:05.079 --> 01:02:08.920 kind of the earliest game theorist, uh, I mean, he 884 01:02:08.960 --> 01:02:10.880 was a game theorist some of the many other things, 885 01:02:10.920 --> 01:02:16.960 but kind of the first uh, public intellectual who really 886 01:02:17.159 --> 01:02:19.679 sort of articulated this and and in like a very 887 01:02:20.079 --> 01:02:25.519 kind of concrete form was was a guy named Norbert 888 01:02:25.639 --> 01:02:30.800 Norbert Winer. Okay, he published a book called Cybernetics, or 889 01:02:30.800 --> 01:02:36.239 Control and Communication and the Animal and the Machine. That 890 01:02:36.400 --> 01:02:39.639 sounds very strange and almost kind of science fiction like, 891 01:02:39.719 --> 01:02:43.679 but I wire was a consumately serious person. He wasn't 892 01:02:43.719 --> 01:02:52.320 some crank, and he coined the term cybernetics, and uh, 893 01:02:52.639 --> 01:02:57.480 within Winer's vernacular, cybernetics quite literally referred to self regulating 894 01:02:57.480 --> 01:03:02.119 mechanisms of all kinds. He cited the earliest examples of 895 01:03:02.519 --> 01:03:06.199 you know, servo mechanisms, you know, be them hydraulic electric 896 01:03:06.320 --> 01:03:10.320 mechanical that were error sensitive and their feedback you know, 897 01:03:10.360 --> 01:03:13.599 even like something like a Roman aqueduct, you know, in 898 01:03:13.599 --> 01:03:16.000 in a primitive way, not primitive in terms of its construction, 899 01:03:16.119 --> 01:03:19.000 but primitive in terms of you know, the applied technology utilized, 900 01:03:20.840 --> 01:03:23.400 you know was wasn't It was an example of you know, 901 01:03:23.760 --> 01:03:30.800 error sensitive machine learning. Okay, Now, when you add humans 902 01:03:30.800 --> 01:03:34.239 into the equation, I you need a human operator at 903 01:03:34.280 --> 01:03:37.239 at least, you know, in a at least to initiate 904 01:03:37.440 --> 01:03:42.360 machine processes. You've got to take care, you know, to 905 01:03:42.400 --> 01:03:49.320 structure how that relationship ensues and how it is sustained 906 01:03:49.519 --> 01:03:54.119 throughout the duration of processes. Okay, there's got to be 907 01:03:54.239 --> 01:03:58.039 mutual intelligibility, you know, between what the human mind is 908 01:03:58.039 --> 01:04:01.320 telling the machine to do. Uh, and the human mind 909 01:04:01.440 --> 01:04:04.440 has to be not only comfortable, like literally physically carntible 910 01:04:05.239 --> 01:04:09.719 with the machine that it's operating, but it's also got 911 01:04:09.760 --> 01:04:13.079 to be sensitive to you know, the feedback emergent from 912 01:04:13.079 --> 01:04:18.039 the machine. Okay. One of the reasons why and Whiner 913 01:04:18.159 --> 01:04:21.960 was sensitive to this there was such a revolt of 914 01:04:22.000 --> 01:04:25.159 the laboring cast. When there truly was a laboring cast, 915 01:04:26.039 --> 01:04:29.000 you know, working on an assembly line of any kind, 916 01:04:29.000 --> 01:04:30.880 whether it was a slaughterhouse or whether it was you know, 917 01:04:30.960 --> 01:04:36.559 a or whether it was a textile mill. In the 918 01:04:36.760 --> 01:04:40.320 early twentieth century, it was incredibly unpleasant. It was difficult, 919 01:04:40.519 --> 01:04:46.199 it was physically painful. The there was not a good 920 01:04:46.320 --> 01:04:52.280 coupling that had been achieved between the human operator and 921 01:04:52.360 --> 01:04:55.239 the machine. You know, the human felt overwhelmed by the machine, 922 01:04:55.320 --> 01:04:57.960 or the machine was forcing a pace of work, you 923 01:04:57.960 --> 01:05:01.320 know that the human couldn't keep up without significant pain 924 01:05:01.519 --> 01:05:04.960 or sometimes at all. You know, these machines often are dangerous, 925 01:05:05.679 --> 01:05:09.199 and even when functioning is intended, you know, they they 926 01:05:09.320 --> 01:05:12.800 they harm people, you know, And that's not that that's 927 01:05:12.800 --> 01:05:16.719 gonna do a couple of things. I mean, it's gonna 928 01:05:16.760 --> 01:05:19.679 do more than a couple of things. But first and foremost, 929 01:05:19.960 --> 01:05:24.679 it's going to create certain inefficiencies and choke points. And 930 01:05:24.719 --> 01:05:27.760 it's also gonna hurt people, which itself is not good. 931 01:05:27.840 --> 01:05:30.559 I mean, I think we're gonnall agree on that. But 932 01:05:30.639 --> 01:05:34.360 also it's gonna really gonna sour the human operators view 933 01:05:34.400 --> 01:05:39.119 of the machine, you know, and even if only subcasually, 934 01:05:39.159 --> 01:05:41.960 even if even a very duty bound or conscientious person 935 01:05:42.480 --> 01:05:44.559 or a true believer, you know, particularly somebody in a 936 01:05:44.559 --> 01:05:47.920 military role who you know, copies that role they're in. 937 01:05:48.599 --> 01:05:51.039 You know, if if if this machine causes them pain 938 01:05:51.159 --> 01:05:54.639 or difficulty or frightens them, or you know, they they 939 01:05:54.639 --> 01:05:56.840 they're always worried that they're gonna be somehow harmed or 940 01:05:56.840 --> 01:05:59.559 meaned by it, that that's going to compromise their ability 941 01:05:59.559 --> 01:06:06.000 to interfere and function as intended. So what Winer did 942 01:06:06.199 --> 01:06:09.320 was he said, look, you know, these machines need to 943 01:06:09.320 --> 01:06:12.719 be accessible, you know, and the ability to initiate and 944 01:06:12.800 --> 01:06:16.320 program them in a rudimentary way as intended, you know, 945 01:06:16.360 --> 01:06:20.239 at the critical moment required. You know, it's gotta it's 946 01:06:20.239 --> 01:06:22.920 gotta be. He's talking about like you're talking about being 947 01:06:23.000 --> 01:06:25.440 user friendly. Okay, I mean, nobody use those terms then, 948 01:06:25.480 --> 01:06:27.719 but that's that's what he was talking about. And he 949 01:06:27.800 --> 01:06:29.840 also said that, you know, one of the ways not 950 01:06:29.960 --> 01:06:34.400 just to kind of guarantee you know, an appropriate coppling 951 01:06:36.119 --> 01:06:39.119 that's both safe and efficient to the human operator, but 952 01:06:39.199 --> 01:06:42.119 that also you know, is gonna is gonna you know, 953 01:06:42.199 --> 01:06:44.840 create a kind of punctuated advance and our ability to 954 01:06:44.880 --> 01:06:48.079 develop you know, machines that truly learn, you know, through 955 01:06:48.079 --> 01:06:51.320 irresensitive feedback. Is you know, He's like, we've got to 956 01:06:51.320 --> 01:06:54.840 start structuring machines like we would a human nervous system. Okay, 957 01:06:54.920 --> 01:06:56.880 not literally and say like, you know, okay, this is 958 01:06:56.880 --> 01:06:59.079 the way the brain is structured. You know, I've got 959 01:06:59.079 --> 01:07:02.400 to make my I've gotta tweak my Babbage device to 960 01:07:02.440 --> 01:07:05.840 look more like that brain. Obviously, but you know, it 961 01:07:06.239 --> 01:07:10.119 couldn't be something totally alien and you know, to what 962 01:07:10.599 --> 01:07:12.159 I mean at the end of the day, you know, 963 01:07:12.199 --> 01:07:16.159 like the human brain is just an incredibly complicated, highly 964 01:07:16.159 --> 01:07:20.000 evolved like you know, uh like feedback mechanism for the 965 01:07:20.039 --> 01:07:22.000 purposes we're talking about. Okay, I mean it's a lot 966 01:07:22.039 --> 01:07:25.920 more than that. But you know, so uh making machine 967 01:07:26.079 --> 01:07:29.199 thinking or machine learning at that you know, as it 968 01:07:29.239 --> 01:07:32.119 was understood at that time as human like as possible 969 01:07:32.199 --> 01:07:35.880 in rudimentary terms, Okay, that that wasn't just a way 970 01:07:35.920 --> 01:07:39.119 of you know, kind of guaranteeing you know, maximum efficiency 971 01:07:39.639 --> 01:07:41.800 you know, in terms of the the interface of the 972 01:07:41.880 --> 01:07:46.679 human or like the animal in uh liners terminology with 973 01:07:46.760 --> 01:07:49.599 the machine. But it also he said, this is the 974 01:07:49.639 --> 01:07:53.639 path that kind of you know, greater development in terms 975 01:07:53.719 --> 01:07:56.360 of you know, in terms of our in terms of 976 01:07:56.360 --> 01:07:59.079 our design engineering. Okay, And I think I think it 977 01:07:59.079 --> 01:08:02.280 goes out saying is right about that if you if 978 01:08:02.320 --> 01:08:04.039 you cud of like the brass tacks, what guys like 979 01:08:04.079 --> 01:08:07.239 Steve Jobs we're talking about, you know, And I'm not 980 01:08:07.440 --> 01:08:09.119 I'm not a computer guy or a tech guy at all, 981 01:08:09.159 --> 01:08:11.599 but I've read a lot about Jobs because for better 982 01:08:11.639 --> 01:08:14.960 or worse, he was a very significant personage. And when 983 01:08:15.000 --> 01:08:18.279 he talks about design, optics and aesthetics, you can tell 984 01:08:18.319 --> 01:08:20.479 he's doing it like the way like a guy who's 985 01:08:20.520 --> 01:08:23.319 not an engineer, but he's more an engineer than he 986 01:08:23.439 --> 01:08:25.319 is like some artists, or like you know, kind of 987 01:08:25.439 --> 01:08:27.960 eccentric like architect. I know, I tried to convey the 988 01:08:28.000 --> 01:08:30.640 image of the latter, but he was the former. And 989 01:08:31.880 --> 01:08:33.720 I guarantee that he said. I guarantee that as a 990 01:08:33.760 --> 01:08:37.119 young man he definitely read cybernetics, and if he didn't, 991 01:08:37.800 --> 01:08:40.680 you know, like the stuff he was reading was so 992 01:08:40.720 --> 01:08:43.359 insinuated with that kind of ethos, but like everybody way 993 01:08:43.359 --> 01:08:45.199 to describe it, that he very much took that on 994 01:08:45.279 --> 01:08:49.000 as his own. Okay. And also just I mean Winer 995 01:08:49.039 --> 01:08:50.800 didn't just make these things up. I mean, there's an 996 01:08:50.840 --> 01:08:56.239 intrinsic Uh, there's a there's like an intrinsic existential reality 997 01:08:56.279 --> 01:08:58.039 to these things. He was positive, you know, it's just 998 01:08:58.319 --> 01:09:01.359 that's the way machines work, that's the way humans think 999 01:09:01.439 --> 01:09:04.960 and feel, that's the way they interface in very basic terms, 1000 01:09:05.119 --> 01:09:13.560 and cybernetics and like the postulates there in. That was 1001 01:09:13.600 --> 01:09:16.600 really the earliest. That was really the earliest discussion of 1002 01:09:16.960 --> 01:09:21.680 you know, audit, automated navigation, analog computing in the way 1003 01:09:21.720 --> 01:09:24.720 that we understand it or understood it, you know, in 1004 01:09:24.720 --> 01:09:26.960 the later twentieth century, and you know, which was the 1005 01:09:27.039 --> 01:09:29.399 you know, the forebear of it as we know it. 1006 01:09:30.199 --> 01:09:32.439 This is the first time people talked about AI in 1007 01:09:32.479 --> 01:09:37.920 an applied capacity. It uh, it led to neuroscientific modeling, 1008 01:09:38.640 --> 01:09:45.520 and most importantly, uher Reiner was always it was always uh, 1009 01:09:45.840 --> 01:09:49.520 it was always emphasizing the importance of communication and communication 1010 01:09:50.239 --> 01:09:54.760 regime and also UH like physical structure like across distance 1011 01:09:55.399 --> 01:09:58.319 that was integrated, that was reliable, and most importantly, that 1012 01:09:58.359 --> 01:10:01.119 was survivable. Okay, And I said was importantly not not 1013 01:10:01.159 --> 01:10:04.800 just the general proposition, but in the case of nuclear war, 1014 01:10:04.840 --> 01:10:11.279 I mean that's everything, you know. So these are things 1015 01:10:11.279 --> 01:10:14.800 to understand. We're talking about nuclear war, We're talking about 1016 01:10:14.800 --> 01:10:18.039 the Cold War paradigm, and especially in the UH in 1017 01:10:18.079 --> 01:10:22.479 the final UH in the final in the final phase 1018 01:10:22.560 --> 01:10:27.159 of the Cold War, the Cold War conflict paradigm. Okay, 1019 01:10:27.920 --> 01:10:34.560 it these things, UH can't be overstated. And it like 1020 01:10:34.600 --> 01:10:38.560 the desires of of human decision makers, you know, particularly 1021 01:10:38.560 --> 01:10:41.119 those you know in public roles, it really was not 1022 01:10:41.319 --> 01:10:46.239 up to them, like the course of of of events 1023 01:10:47.279 --> 01:10:51.560 in in terms of crisis UH resolution or you know, 1024 01:10:53.159 --> 01:10:58.520 the deterioration of of of remedial strategies you know, in 1025 01:10:58.520 --> 01:11:05.319 in the general war. But the the UH, it's very 1026 01:11:05.319 --> 01:11:10.439 clear too, you know both. It's even people who uh, 1027 01:11:10.640 --> 01:11:14.119 even people who write pretty good histories of the late 1028 01:11:14.159 --> 01:11:21.640 Cold War, like the guy what's his freak, Yeah, Mark Ambinder, Sorry, 1029 01:11:21.680 --> 01:11:27.479 I was having a senior moment, Ambinder. He he deemphasizes 1030 01:11:27.520 --> 01:11:30.199 the degree to which kind of like the trajectory of 1031 01:11:30.239 --> 01:11:33.680 American policy very much had a nuclear vector. And what 1032 01:11:33.720 --> 01:11:37.520 I mean by that is that you know, UH us 1033 01:11:37.720 --> 01:11:42.439 UH global policy and in not just in a hard 1034 01:11:42.479 --> 01:11:45.800 power of terms, but but just in general terms, it 1035 01:11:45.920 --> 01:11:52.079 really orbited around you know, America's nuclear capability. Uh, it's 1036 01:11:52.159 --> 01:11:55.199 ability to wield Dad's a credible threat. You know, the 1037 01:11:55.279 --> 01:11:58.680 response of the Eastern Bloc and the Soviet Union as 1038 01:11:58.680 --> 01:12:00.680 well as China, I mean, despite the China by that 1039 01:12:00.680 --> 01:12:04.399 point have been courted quite successfully as a strategic ali 1040 01:12:06.079 --> 01:12:08.039 This was the This was the variable or set of 1041 01:12:08.119 --> 01:12:14.399 variables that everything revolved around between the superpowers. Okay, some 1042 01:12:14.520 --> 01:12:19.840 mean there's that too, even Uh. It just the existence 1043 01:12:19.880 --> 01:12:23.600 of these capabilities and uh, you know, the continuing emergence 1044 01:12:23.600 --> 01:12:27.880 and new technologies to to perfect the effectiveness of these 1045 01:12:27.920 --> 01:12:33.119 things kind of dictated the course of policy between the superpowers. 1046 01:12:33.279 --> 01:12:35.920 It doesn't matter what anybody's rhetoric was. It doesn't matter 1047 01:12:36.239 --> 01:12:38.760 what anyboy's intentions were or how much they made very 1048 01:12:38.760 --> 01:12:40.399 well have been committed to peace, you know, I don't 1049 01:12:40.560 --> 01:12:45.800 I don't doubt that. You know, some of the things 1050 01:12:45.800 --> 01:12:48.279 Bredon have said before he lost his marbles, and you 1051 01:12:48.319 --> 01:12:50.800 know about the Soviet Union must avoid you know general 1052 01:12:50.800 --> 01:12:52.640 lookally word all costs. I'm sure that he meant that. 1053 01:12:53.159 --> 01:12:55.640 I'm sure Reagan like corny and kind of made for 1054 01:12:55.920 --> 01:12:58.039 sound by television, as some of the things he said 1055 01:12:58.039 --> 01:13:00.880 in the matter may have been. I think earnestly believe 1056 01:13:00.960 --> 01:13:07.359 those things. But moving on the way the Soviet Union 1057 01:13:07.560 --> 01:13:15.760 responded to this emergent strategic landscape was very interesting. In 1058 01:13:15.840 --> 01:13:21.399 nineteen eighty one, the Soviets launched the biggest peace time, dedicated, 1059 01:13:21.439 --> 01:13:25.439 peace time intelligence operation in its entire history, which says 1060 01:13:25.439 --> 01:13:27.319 a lot because the Soviet Union, for the duration of 1061 01:13:27.319 --> 01:13:31.800 its existence really was mobilized for war in a way 1062 01:13:31.840 --> 01:13:37.680 that even you know, even America in the nineteen eighties, 1063 01:13:37.720 --> 01:13:42.319 which which was very much you know, on a war footing, 1064 01:13:43.000 --> 01:13:50.119 would would would view as extreme. And drop Off, who 1065 01:13:50.319 --> 01:13:53.239 in nineteen eighty one was u was still a year 1066 01:13:53.279 --> 01:13:58.359 away from uh, you know, a sending of the role 1067 01:13:58.399 --> 01:14:01.199 of General secretary. As I've said before, I believe, I 1068 01:14:01.239 --> 01:14:04.279 believe he himself, Gramico and ustan Off were very much 1069 01:14:04.359 --> 01:14:06.720 kind of that tried effected the content good shadow government. 1070 01:14:07.239 --> 01:14:10.119 But he was the eminence behind the KGB really for 1071 01:14:10.119 --> 01:14:12.880 the duration of his of his of his life, okay, 1072 01:14:13.840 --> 01:14:20.319 and on strategic matters, oh on Sundry and I can 1073 01:14:20.319 --> 01:14:22.600 tell you that in nineteen eighty one, you know, the 1074 01:14:23.159 --> 01:14:25.119 and drop I was the key decision maker and those 1075 01:14:25.119 --> 01:14:30.600 in immediate orbit, what what what this this intelligence operation 1076 01:14:31.279 --> 01:14:35.479 was called Project Rion or Ryan literally r y a N. 1077 01:14:35.760 --> 01:14:41.640 It's an acronym that uh for a Russian language phrase 1078 01:14:42.239 --> 01:14:46.800 which translates to nuclear missile attack or nuclear missile assault 1079 01:14:46.880 --> 01:14:48.239 or something in that order. I'm not going to try 1080 01:14:48.279 --> 01:14:50.680 to pronounce it and butcher it and embarrass myself. But 1081 01:14:52.399 --> 01:14:56.800 the entire purpose of Rayon or Rion was this. And 1082 01:14:56.920 --> 01:15:02.000 drop of address he members of the poet Gul as 1083 01:15:02.039 --> 01:15:07.159 well as uh, the the general staff, and he said, look, 1084 01:15:08.960 --> 01:15:12.119 you know, we're we're losing the code war on key fronts, 1085 01:15:13.680 --> 01:15:18.800 you know, political and technological that very much nullify our 1086 01:15:18.960 --> 01:15:21.800 are the advantages we do have. And one of those 1087 01:15:21.840 --> 01:15:26.079 fronts was in in computing. I think there's there was 1088 01:15:26.159 --> 01:15:30.119 less than a thousand computers in uh the Soviet Union 1089 01:15:30.119 --> 01:15:32.000 in nineteen eighty one. I mean to give you an idea, 1090 01:15:32.600 --> 01:15:34.840 you know, which is bizarre. What do you think about it? 1091 01:15:34.880 --> 01:15:37.680 That the Soviet Union and they they logged far more 1092 01:15:37.720 --> 01:15:40.760 man hours in space flight than the United States head 1093 01:15:41.399 --> 01:15:43.239 and uh, you know they were they were crying out 1094 01:15:43.279 --> 01:15:47.520 these chess masters who you know, uh, we were schooled 1095 01:15:47.520 --> 01:15:51.199 in uh in formal the kind of formal logic that 1096 01:15:51.199 --> 01:15:53.319 that in America, like really built, you know, like the 1097 01:15:53.800 --> 01:15:56.399 you know, the kind of like early like analog computing industry. 1098 01:15:57.000 --> 01:16:04.319 But that's that warrantance dedicated episode Like how uh uh 1099 01:16:04.560 --> 01:16:08.359 the uh like, how how computing in the Soviet Union 1100 01:16:08.640 --> 01:16:12.800 really was? It really was sabotaged. Oh, you know, like 1101 01:16:12.840 --> 01:16:17.239 interesting rivalries within the design bureaus, you know. And you 1102 01:16:17.239 --> 01:16:21.239 you can't create a high tech economy, you know, based 1103 01:16:21.279 --> 01:16:23.800 on a central plan. I mean, I mean, I mean 1104 01:16:23.840 --> 01:16:27.439 you can't. You can't base the traditional manufacturing economy and 1105 01:16:27.479 --> 01:16:31.680 on a central plan. But particularly you're talking about high 1106 01:16:31.720 --> 01:16:35.880 tech and I t I mean, it's you're you know, 1107 01:16:35.920 --> 01:16:38.000 there's just no there's just no chance that it's going 1108 01:16:38.079 --> 01:16:42.039 to produce what's required, you know, in order to meet 1109 01:16:42.039 --> 01:16:46.920 the meet the needs of of you know, of nuclear 1110 01:16:46.960 --> 01:16:50.880 war command and control planning. But with what they did have, 1111 01:16:52.640 --> 01:16:56.800 what uh what what Project Rihannim to do was to 1112 01:16:56.800 --> 01:17:02.680 anticipate a bolt from the blue nuclear strike by using, uh, 1113 01:17:02.760 --> 01:17:07.359 the computing technology they did have alongside human analysts to 1114 01:17:07.479 --> 01:17:13.600 monitor indicators, to identify monitor codable indicators you know, from 1115 01:17:13.640 --> 01:17:19.279 the United States and NATO, and uh determine when these 1116 01:17:19.319 --> 01:17:28.239 indicators could be relied upon. That you know to to 1117 01:17:29.880 --> 01:17:34.000 that that that that an imminent nuclear assault was you know, 1118 01:17:34.159 --> 01:17:38.760 was a foot such that uh, with the technologies of 1119 01:17:38.800 --> 01:17:42.680 the day, apparently with submarine launched ballistic missile platforms, you know, 1120 01:17:42.720 --> 01:17:45.720 as well as intermediate range missiles, which you know, if 1121 01:17:45.760 --> 01:17:49.720 deployed in the theater by NATO, would reach their targets 1122 01:17:49.760 --> 01:17:52.239 you know, within fire or ten minutes, you know where 1123 01:17:52.319 --> 01:17:55.119 we're talking about. It's not you know, early warning is 1124 01:17:55.159 --> 01:17:57.319 not enough. I mean, no matter how sensitive it is, 1125 01:17:57.359 --> 01:17:59.800 no matter how possible to spoof it is. You know, 1126 01:17:59.880 --> 01:18:03.720 like before before there's any but there's where there's any 1127 01:18:03.760 --> 01:18:07.039 commanding control indicator in America in nineteen eighty one, you 1128 01:18:07.079 --> 01:18:10.239 know that Strategic Air Command, you know, is going to 1129 01:18:10.319 --> 01:18:14.439 scramble its heavy bombers. You know that that the the 1130 01:18:14.439 --> 01:18:17.159 miniman missiles are about to emerge in their silos. Like 1131 01:18:17.199 --> 01:18:19.600 you've got to be able to identify the variables before 1132 01:18:19.640 --> 01:18:26.680 there's any actual you know, command and control indicator, which 1133 01:18:27.199 --> 01:18:30.199 I mean it says a dawning proposition, I mean, doesn't 1134 01:18:30.359 --> 01:18:34.359 It is almost comically inadequate. But it also it creates 1135 01:18:34.359 --> 01:18:36.279 a very dangerous circumstance. If you've got to be able 1136 01:18:36.279 --> 01:18:43.840 to identify evident assault indicators you know, based upon you know, uh, 1137 01:18:44.960 --> 01:18:53.399 based upon apparently benign events and human behaviors at scale 1138 01:18:53.720 --> 01:18:56.439 that could very very easily be misread. I mean, this 1139 01:18:56.520 --> 01:18:59.439 goes beyond fog of work kind of stuff. But it 1140 01:18:59.479 --> 01:19:02.960 also this is a difficult question. You know, It's like, Okay, 1141 01:19:03.039 --> 01:19:07.680 let's say let's say that there could let's say, let's 1142 01:19:07.680 --> 01:19:13.439 say attack indicators, you know, codable attack indicators could in 1143 01:19:13.479 --> 01:19:20.640 fact be reliably identified, and that there was a machine that, uh, 1144 01:19:20.760 --> 01:19:25.560 you know, could pretty reliably evaluate these things and could 1145 01:19:25.760 --> 01:19:29.119 I'm smollifying this for the saying with counterfactual, you know, 1146 01:19:29.279 --> 01:19:34.600 spit out a probability ratio of what the likelihood is 1147 01:19:34.920 --> 01:19:38.239 that you know, these indicators mean, you know, an attackism 1148 01:19:38.279 --> 01:19:42.199 in it if there's a ten percent probability you know, 1149 01:19:42.800 --> 01:19:45.399 if you preempted with your own attack, if it's anything 1150 01:19:45.439 --> 01:19:48.319 over fifty percent, if it's one percent, like you see 1151 01:19:48.359 --> 01:19:52.880 what I mean, like it where you're you're you're running 1152 01:19:52.920 --> 01:19:57.880 into a kind of paradigm where increasingly, like the winner 1153 01:19:59.079 --> 01:20:03.000 is gonna be the one who just preempts in absolute 1154 01:20:03.119 --> 01:20:07.399 terms and when he's confident that you know, he can 1155 01:20:07.439 --> 01:20:13.279 at least survive a retaliatory strike, just perverse incentives to 1156 01:20:13.439 --> 01:20:15.399 attack even when not in a reminted threat. 1157 01:20:15.479 --> 01:20:20.159 If you follow me, well, this wasn't anything new at 1158 01:20:20.199 --> 01:20:24.359 the time. I mean, Ellsberg talks in his books about how, 1159 01:20:24.680 --> 01:20:28.119 you know, the the department he was in in the 1160 01:20:28.199 --> 01:20:31.119 late fifties and early sixties, they were war gaming this. 1161 01:20:31.319 --> 01:20:33.159 They they had already come up with the concept of 1162 01:20:33.159 --> 01:20:34.960 the nuclear sponge by that point. 1163 01:20:35.239 --> 01:20:42.079 I'll tell you what changed, uh parody. It wasn't until 1164 01:20:42.119 --> 01:20:44.920 nineteen seventy five that there was true nuclear parody between 1165 01:20:44.960 --> 01:20:49.680 natal and Warsaw Pact. That's why these guys like LeMay 1166 01:20:50.439 --> 01:20:54.039 and even Thomas Powers, who gets kind of Thomas Powers 1167 01:20:54.039 --> 01:20:56.439 was actually the model for Jack d Ripper and Strange Love. 1168 01:20:56.520 --> 01:20:59.039 It wasn't le May, but le May was gonna similarly 1169 01:21:00.079 --> 01:21:05.920 Lampoon Lambastard. Their whole notion was that if you know, eventually, 1170 01:21:06.159 --> 01:21:08.800 you know, a general nuclear war is imminent with the 1171 01:21:08.800 --> 01:21:12.359 Soviet Union, We've got to go to war. Now, if 1172 01:21:12.399 --> 01:21:14.920 you wait ten years, there's gonna be nuclear parody. We 1173 01:21:15.000 --> 01:21:17.960 can't win that, you know. Now, Yeah, we'll take fifty 1174 01:21:18.000 --> 01:21:23.000 million dead, but will survive. They won't. Plus, there was 1175 01:21:24.800 --> 01:21:26.960 one of the reasons why the Salt Talks kind of 1176 01:21:27.000 --> 01:21:31.359 became obsolescent. It wasn't just that, you know, this Soviet 1177 01:21:31.399 --> 01:21:34.840 invasion of Afghanistan meant that the State Department and as 1178 01:21:34.880 --> 01:21:37.319 well as Congress no longer had any interest in, you know, 1179 01:21:37.399 --> 01:21:40.319 pursuing a follow up kind of regime until much later. 1180 01:21:40.960 --> 01:21:45.479 We'll talk about that later. But like deeper parodies, you know, 1181 01:21:46.640 --> 01:21:52.199 multiple warheads, you know, being slammed onto existing presisting platforms, 1182 01:21:52.479 --> 01:21:55.560 you know, creating like this, these these massive throw weights, 1183 01:21:55.800 --> 01:22:00.399 you know, create like reduced circular error probable, know, the 1184 01:22:00.439 --> 01:22:04.960 perfection of penetration aids and decoys, you know, the ability 1185 01:22:04.960 --> 01:22:09.760 to spoof enemy early warning, and the emergence of AI 1186 01:22:10.399 --> 01:22:13.960 you know, like the uh, the movie War Games is 1187 01:22:14.000 --> 01:22:16.640 actually a great film, and it's a smart film. I 1188 01:22:16.680 --> 01:22:20.199 Mean some stuff in its corny because it's Hollywood and 1189 01:22:20.239 --> 01:22:22.520 it's you know, uh a movie that was aimed at 1190 01:22:22.560 --> 01:22:25.920 like teenagers, but some of it's actually very smart and 1191 01:22:26.039 --> 01:22:30.960 uh the opening uh, like the opening sequence where you 1192 01:22:31.000 --> 01:22:33.680 know they're running this command post exercise, you know, and 1193 01:22:33.880 --> 01:22:35.640 one of the miss layers won't turn his key. That 1194 01:22:35.760 --> 01:22:37.920 was part of the issue. But then in the movie, 1195 01:22:38.760 --> 01:22:41.319 like the civilian advisor I think's supposed to be Thomas Schelling. 1196 01:22:42.119 --> 01:22:45.239 He says like, look like why we we can't we 1197 01:22:45.279 --> 01:22:47.920 can we can't wait until you know it's clear Ivan's 1198 01:22:47.920 --> 01:22:50.199 gonna assault. You know, we gotta know he's gonna assault 1199 01:22:50.279 --> 01:22:52.840 him before he does, you know, which he was there 1200 01:22:52.880 --> 01:22:57.439 was like gallows humor. But it's also not entirely inaccurate. 1201 01:22:57.760 --> 01:23:00.680 I mean, that's that's what was changing things. Plus the 1202 01:23:02.119 --> 01:23:06.119 you know, like I said, the in nuclear war, if 1203 01:23:06.119 --> 01:23:09.760 you're being able to identify an attack is underway, characterize 1204 01:23:09.800 --> 01:23:13.840 the nature of that attack, then interminal response based on 1205 01:23:14.439 --> 01:23:19.720 survive surviving forces or probable surviving forces, and then giving 1206 01:23:19.760 --> 01:23:24.000 the order to retaliate. In nineteen sixty you probably had 1207 01:23:24.039 --> 01:23:26.880 about an hour to do that, Okay. In nineteen eighty one, 1208 01:23:27.119 --> 01:23:31.199 you had ten minutes to do that. You know, arguably 1209 01:23:31.199 --> 01:23:34.079 you had five minutes. Like by the time the Soviet 1210 01:23:34.159 --> 01:23:40.720 Union fell apart. It's basic, it's basic assault strategy was 1211 01:23:40.800 --> 01:23:49.680 gonna be it always parked U two typhoon class submarines 1212 01:23:51.159 --> 01:23:55.960 within striking range of the eastern United States. Okay. The 1213 01:23:56.039 --> 01:23:58.640 idea was that they were going to launch a volley 1214 01:23:58.760 --> 01:24:06.399 of of of submarine launched boistic missiles at depressed depressed 1215 01:24:06.479 --> 01:24:09.640 trajectory that would air burst over the entire East coast 1216 01:24:10.640 --> 01:24:15.000 and you know, create an EMP blackout, then follow up 1217 01:24:15.000 --> 01:24:17.640 with a massive volley and basically like annihilate the eastern 1218 01:24:17.760 --> 01:24:20.640 United States. And you know, if they could do that 1219 01:24:20.720 --> 01:24:25.359 fast enough and assuming their systems went off without you know, 1220 01:24:25.760 --> 01:24:30.279 a glitch or whatever, they had a reasonable probability of 1221 01:24:30.319 --> 01:24:32.199 winning a nuclear war if it was truly like a 1222 01:24:32.239 --> 01:24:34.760 bolt from the blue attack. You know, stuff like this 1223 01:24:34.840 --> 01:24:37.479 wasn't possible in Elsberg's day. He was foreseeing that it 1224 01:24:37.520 --> 01:24:39.640 would be at some point, even if he couldn't foresee 1225 01:24:39.640 --> 01:24:43.560 the exact platforms. But by nineteen eighty one there was 1226 01:24:43.640 --> 01:24:49.000 parody as regards forces and being and arguably, uh, the 1227 01:24:49.039 --> 01:24:53.600 Soviet Union had the edge. You know. And like I said, 1228 01:24:53.640 --> 01:24:55.199 this is in terms of data that since the wall 1229 01:24:55.279 --> 01:24:58.399 came down, it's been verified. It's not just it wasn't 1230 01:24:58.439 --> 01:25:00.960 just like missile gap nonsense, you know, the kind that 1231 01:25:01.039 --> 01:25:05.039 people were banning in nineteen sixty election. Uh, you know 1232 01:25:05.119 --> 01:25:10.880 creates this kind of doing cityway just idea Yeah that 1233 01:25:10.960 --> 01:25:16.720 you know, Uh, there there's a gap in American in 1234 01:25:16.880 --> 01:25:21.560 uh in uh, in American in a in an American 1235 01:25:21.600 --> 01:25:27.319 defense capabilities, you know, visa the Warsaw Pact, that's what 1236 01:25:27.479 --> 01:25:32.520 that's what changed. And plus the UH you know the 1237 01:25:32.720 --> 01:25:34.359 I mean, that's the problem with anything else designed to 1238 01:25:34.399 --> 01:25:38.600 preserve the the design to preserve stability. You don't know 1239 01:25:38.640 --> 01:25:41.119 whether you're talking about like you know, the strategic arms 1240 01:25:41.119 --> 01:25:43.600 limitation talks, you know, whether you're talking about these arms 1241 01:25:43.600 --> 01:25:46.880 reduction agreements. You know, you can't you can't just freeze 1242 01:25:46.880 --> 01:25:50.039 technology in situ. You know, It's like and even if 1243 01:25:50.039 --> 01:25:51.359 you you know, you were, even if you live in 1244 01:25:51.399 --> 01:25:54.760 the number of platforms, those platforms have become more efficient, 1245 01:25:55.039 --> 01:25:59.239 but become more effective, you know, uh, the killing technology 1246 01:26:00.119 --> 01:26:05.600 will become more and more catastrophically utile, you know, things 1247 01:26:05.640 --> 01:26:12.920 like this, and uh. Plus to the UH orbital space, 1248 01:26:13.560 --> 01:26:17.199 you know, becoming the key kind of emergent battle theater 1249 01:26:17.520 --> 01:26:21.079 was changing things too, because you know, you launched like 1250 01:26:21.199 --> 01:26:23.680 the Outer Space Treaty, you know, technically banned orbit of 1251 01:26:23.720 --> 01:26:27.279 bombardment platforms. That didn't mean anything. And also the Space 1252 01:26:27.279 --> 01:26:32.359 Shuttle obviously was UH. What was a UH was was 1253 01:26:32.399 --> 01:26:35.560 an orbit of bombardment delivery mechanism. I mean, it was 1254 01:26:35.760 --> 01:26:38.640 it was uh. It was other things too, but you 1255 01:26:38.680 --> 01:26:42.399 know that that's that was first and foremost. Its role. 1256 01:26:42.439 --> 01:26:45.319 It wasn't its rule wasn't to take you know, civilian 1257 01:26:45.359 --> 01:26:48.399 school teachers into space to do experiments on goldfish and 1258 01:26:48.479 --> 01:26:53.239 zero gravity or something. But these are the things that 1259 01:26:53.279 --> 01:26:57.720 were kind of destabilizing what had been. I mean, the 1260 01:26:57.720 --> 01:27:00.399 the paradigm was never truly stable, that's by people say, 1261 01:27:00.479 --> 01:27:06.039 but it was becoming unmanageable, like owing to these owing 1262 01:27:06.079 --> 01:27:13.319 to these variables. This really reached the zenith in UH 1263 01:27:13.560 --> 01:27:17.920 nineteen eighty three. You know, there was the there's the 1264 01:27:17.960 --> 01:27:23.079 Able Archer Command Post exercise in in November seventh, and 1265 01:27:25.600 --> 01:27:30.239 that was really that that was really the way to 1266 01:27:30.279 --> 01:27:32.000 look at that too. I mean, for those that don't know, 1267 01:27:33.720 --> 01:27:37.439 there's this bi annual exercise called reforger UH, which was 1268 01:27:37.479 --> 01:27:40.119 short military short end for Return of Forces to Germany. 1269 01:27:41.920 --> 01:27:44.479 It was this UH. It was this mass military exercise. 1270 01:27:45.000 --> 01:27:50.199 We're in UH the forces and being in UH in Germany, 1271 01:27:50.279 --> 01:27:53.359 and there was about three hundred thousand US troops. They 1272 01:27:53.359 --> 01:27:58.560 are backed up by a contingent of about two hundred 1273 01:27:58.600 --> 01:28:03.039 thousand other natal elements, contributions by the naval omens I mean, 1274 01:28:03.920 --> 01:28:07.079 but the Reforger exercise was an event of a general 1275 01:28:07.199 --> 01:28:11.680 war in Europe with warsaw packs. How rapidly can we 1276 01:28:11.760 --> 01:28:16.319 can we reinforce those forces and being deployed to Europe, 1277 01:28:16.840 --> 01:28:20.640 you know before they were totally overrun by Warsaw pacts. Okay, 1278 01:28:20.840 --> 01:28:22.560 So I mean it was actually important. It wasn't just 1279 01:28:22.600 --> 01:28:26.319 a make work fake work thing. I mean actually on 1280 01:28:26.319 --> 01:28:29.880 on the logistics side and the commanding control side, this 1281 01:28:29.960 --> 01:28:34.560 actually was important operationally, and it also demonstrated UH political 1282 01:28:34.560 --> 01:28:37.520 will to the Warsaw Pact, and that was important. What 1283 01:28:37.600 --> 01:28:43.640 able R Trad three was was UH concombinant with Reforger. 1284 01:28:44.760 --> 01:28:50.199 It was a command post nuclear war simulation, and it 1285 01:28:50.319 --> 01:28:54.760 included even civilian UH chief executives, you know, like Margaret 1286 01:28:54.760 --> 01:28:57.880 Thatcher like went to her uh you know when when 1287 01:28:57.960 --> 01:29:02.960 when went to like the designated you know, UH follog shelter, 1288 01:29:03.800 --> 01:29:08.840 you know, uh the helmet cole was similarly like does 1289 01:29:08.840 --> 01:29:12.760 a beer from sight. I mean, when you consider Project REN, 1290 01:29:12.800 --> 01:29:16.600 I mean you consider, you know, the kinds of deep 1291 01:29:16.640 --> 01:29:20.640 parodies that were causing real alarm on on both sides 1292 01:29:20.640 --> 01:29:26.880 of UH the Cold War, this seems incredibly risky, you know, 1293 01:29:27.000 --> 01:29:31.079 because what you're doing is this command post exercise. And 1294 01:29:31.159 --> 01:29:33.399 you know that the Russians have been attacked many times 1295 01:29:33.479 --> 01:29:36.960 under the auspices of you know, peaceful military exercises by 1296 01:29:37.000 --> 01:29:41.880 their enemies. So there's that. But then also pretty much 1297 01:29:41.920 --> 01:29:44.960 every indicator of an imminent bolt from the blue nuclear 1298 01:29:44.960 --> 01:29:54.640 result was emergent in uh, the able Archer exercise. Okay. Now, now, 1299 01:29:54.680 --> 01:29:58.760 on the one hand, yeah, if you're if you're if 1300 01:29:58.800 --> 01:30:01.000 you're gonnapply on a nuclear ward to win it, you've 1301 01:30:01.000 --> 01:30:03.239 got to run those kinds of exercises, okay, and they've 1302 01:30:03.279 --> 01:30:05.720 got to be as real as possible. And also if 1303 01:30:05.760 --> 01:30:10.079 you want true data on how fast you know, the 1304 01:30:10.119 --> 01:30:14.680 Warsaw Pact, you know, you know, in then in existence 1305 01:30:14.720 --> 01:30:18.439 at that moment, you know how fast they would respond, 1306 01:30:19.119 --> 01:30:22.159 you know, uh to being spoofed. You know that that's 1307 01:30:22.199 --> 01:30:24.960 how you corral your data about you know what the 1308 01:30:25.039 --> 01:30:28.600 response time, how fast it's gonna be, and what stuff 1309 01:30:28.680 --> 01:30:32.399 it's gonna entail in a real war situation. So yeah, 1310 01:30:32.479 --> 01:30:35.159 I mean, there's there's there's a deep internal logic to that. 1311 01:30:35.239 --> 01:30:38.600 But it also there's a very good chance that you know, 1312 01:30:38.840 --> 01:30:42.359 your enemy will perceive this as you know, indicators of 1313 01:30:42.439 --> 01:30:45.920 an actual attack and you can find yourself in a 1314 01:30:46.000 --> 01:30:53.319 general nuclear war very very easily. That Uh it's both 1315 01:30:53.359 --> 01:30:57.520 instructive as to you know, not how tense things were 1316 01:30:59.359 --> 01:31:04.920 between you know, actors, but also uh it shows you, uh, 1317 01:31:04.960 --> 01:31:07.760 the degree to which you know, like we were talking 1318 01:31:07.760 --> 01:31:12.640 about a minute ago, the degree the degree to which 1319 01:31:12.720 --> 01:31:17.960 you know, conditions of of absolute peace, you know, could 1320 01:31:18.000 --> 01:31:21.319 become conditions that general nuclear war. I mean rapidly, you know, 1321 01:31:21.399 --> 01:31:23.159 there wasn't. There wasn't this kind of like you know, 1322 01:31:23.560 --> 01:31:27.119 scaled escalation over you know, over days or weeks or 1323 01:31:27.119 --> 01:31:34.840 even hours. You know. The second aspect of this was Reagan, uh, 1324 01:31:37.359 --> 01:31:41.720 you know, kind of prompted about people like Kasper Weinberger 1325 01:31:41.760 --> 01:31:48.159 and a lot of the Team B types Reagan had. Reagan, 1326 01:31:48.960 --> 01:31:52.640 he Green led the deployment of the person too intermediate 1327 01:31:52.760 --> 01:31:59.399 range ballistic missile platform to Europe, to the Buddhist Republic, 1328 01:31:59.479 --> 01:32:04.479 to uh Italy, to the Netherlands, some of the UK, 1329 01:32:04.560 --> 01:32:09.079 I believe, but I don't think they ever arrived. This 1330 01:32:09.119 --> 01:32:12.760 would have, uh, this would have given NATO a profound 1331 01:32:12.920 --> 01:32:19.239 edge on in theater nuclear weapons and so deployed, Uh, 1332 01:32:19.479 --> 01:32:25.800 they could reach Moscow within minutes. Okay, this really terrified 1333 01:32:25.880 --> 01:32:31.479 Soviet war planners, and for good reason. And there's a 1334 01:32:31.560 --> 01:32:33.760 nuance here too that I can't remember we raised it 1335 01:32:33.800 --> 01:32:39.760 for or not, but ironically, owing to uh, you know, politics, 1336 01:32:41.000 --> 01:32:43.720 NATO was very forward deployed. Like literally the way it 1337 01:32:43.760 --> 01:32:49.399 was deployed in West Germany, in the Netherlands, in you know, 1338 01:32:49.600 --> 01:32:54.319 all all throughout the the continent. It was not deployed 1339 01:32:54.319 --> 01:32:58.399 at all in depth and specifically in Germany. Looking at 1340 01:32:58.479 --> 01:33:04.159 a map of NATO deployment, US, Benelux British forces were 1341 01:33:04.159 --> 01:33:08.520 in offensive deployment, Okay, like they can't be denied. So 1342 01:33:08.560 --> 01:33:10.399 if you're raying now, some of that had to do with, 1343 01:33:10.439 --> 01:33:12.239 you know, there's a way kind of placating, you know, 1344 01:33:12.319 --> 01:33:15.119 people like the Greens who who literally didn't want, you know, 1345 01:33:15.199 --> 01:33:18.359 like NATO forces to be seen, you know, and uh, 1346 01:33:18.520 --> 01:33:21.840 it was a way of kind of mitigating the kind 1347 01:33:21.840 --> 01:33:24.439 of besic hostility over the fact that Germany quite literally 1348 01:33:24.479 --> 01:33:27.760 was occupied. There's all kinds of things, but it was 1349 01:33:27.840 --> 01:33:30.560 also you know, the understanding was if warsaw if in 1350 01:33:30.640 --> 01:33:33.880 one warsaw pack moves, you know, like what difference does 1351 01:33:33.920 --> 01:33:35.840 it make we can deploy in depth a we want 1352 01:33:35.960 --> 01:33:40.720 they're gonna break through, you know. But from the Soviet side, 1353 01:33:40.720 --> 01:33:43.079 it's like, okay, we've got NATO in kind of permanent 1354 01:33:43.079 --> 01:33:47.119 offensive deployment. Now there deploying. Now. Now they're deploying these 1355 01:33:47.159 --> 01:33:50.600 pershing two platforms, which are not only not super hard, 1356 01:33:50.640 --> 01:33:53.039 and they're totally vulnerable. I mean, there's no such thing 1357 01:33:53.039 --> 01:33:56.319 as a truly defensive nuclear weapon. But the only way 1358 01:33:56.319 --> 01:33:58.920 you can use a persing cyst platform is if you're 1359 01:33:59.000 --> 01:34:01.840 on the attack, you know, like it's because if it's 1360 01:34:01.880 --> 01:34:06.680 it's not a survivable uh platform. You know. So the 1361 01:34:06.720 --> 01:34:09.600 Soviets weren't being crazy or weren't crying wolf or something. 1362 01:34:09.840 --> 01:34:14.039 And even even Robert Gates admitted this kind of labor 1363 01:34:14.159 --> 01:34:19.760 in his memoirs, you know, he said, you know, and 1364 01:34:20.079 --> 01:34:24.840 anybody who understands these things and understands what gupl cases 1365 01:34:24.880 --> 01:34:28.520 indicators were. Uh, you know, anybody looking at this on 1366 01:34:28.640 --> 01:34:32.079 the warsaw Pack's side would have said, you know, these 1367 01:34:32.680 --> 01:34:35.840 these people are basically preparing a wage in nuclear blitzkrieg, 1368 01:34:36.520 --> 01:34:40.119 you know. And and there was some truth to that. Frankly, 1369 01:34:42.560 --> 01:34:44.920 kind of the genius of Reagan, if you want to 1370 01:34:45.720 --> 01:34:47.840 give him cross for something. And I'm not any any 1371 01:34:47.920 --> 01:34:54.279 huge like Reagan fan in history. But uh what uh 1372 01:34:55.439 --> 01:35:01.800 what what Reagan's uh State Department did was they said, well, 1373 01:35:02.920 --> 01:35:06.720 you know, we'll remove uh, we'll remove the Pershing twos 1374 01:35:06.760 --> 01:35:13.079 from Europe. Yeah. Oh if all uh if all theater 1375 01:35:13.159 --> 01:35:16.359 based nuclear weapons you know, natalarsaw packed, if we agree 1376 01:35:16.399 --> 01:35:18.359 to move all of them, you know, but that's that's 1377 01:35:18.359 --> 01:35:23.399 the price essentially of of of dismantling the system. And 1378 01:35:23.479 --> 01:35:27.000 I mean two in defensive Reagan had been the the 1379 01:35:27.000 --> 01:35:31.920 impetus for the deployment of these platforms. It was because 1380 01:35:32.399 --> 01:35:34.479 they're a hell of a good way if you're gonna 1381 01:35:34.479 --> 01:35:39.680 wage not a nuclear war to to do it. But also, uh, 1382 01:35:39.960 --> 01:35:46.840 the Soviet Union, uh, they'd massd s S nineteen's those 1383 01:35:46.840 --> 01:35:51.600 are one of those those one of those physically huge 1384 01:35:51.800 --> 01:35:56.239 uh missile systems. You know that we're based on trucks. 1385 01:35:56.479 --> 01:35:58.880 It's kind of brilliant in its simplicity. For those mobile 1386 01:35:58.920 --> 01:36:02.279 launch vehicles. The Soviet would move them around every day, 1387 01:36:02.479 --> 01:36:05.439 like literally, so it's would be. 1388 01:36:05.439 --> 01:36:08.439 Like the one from the like the one from the 1389 01:36:08.439 --> 01:36:09.479 movie Spies like us. 1390 01:36:09.840 --> 01:36:13.920 Yeah, exactly, exactly. Yeah, that's so I started a movie. 1391 01:36:14.119 --> 01:36:15.399 I saw it in the theater with my mom and 1392 01:36:15.439 --> 01:36:18.920 a little kid. That's hilarious, but that's actually an awesome movie. 1393 01:36:18.960 --> 01:36:24.079 But yeah, the UH, but the Soviet idea was, uh, 1394 01:36:24.199 --> 01:36:28.960 they were threatening Europe with annihilation with UH, with these deployments, 1395 01:36:29.479 --> 01:36:33.520 and they were doing it basically decouple UH Europe's UH 1396 01:36:34.359 --> 01:36:37.319 national security policy and the respective Natal States from that 1397 01:36:37.399 --> 01:36:41.600 of America, basically saying like, look like, you know, if uh, 1398 01:36:42.159 --> 01:36:46.359 if if you avail yourselves to UH, to NATO and 1399 01:36:48.680 --> 01:36:51.239 the United States, you know, the United States is nuclear deterrent. 1400 01:36:51.880 --> 01:36:53.640 You know, you're we consider you to be a fair 1401 01:36:53.680 --> 01:36:57.960 target and we're gonna continue to target Western Europe as 1402 01:36:57.960 --> 01:36:59.760 long as that indoors. I mean it was, it was 1403 01:37:00.039 --> 01:37:02.960 and you know, deployment of the person too, was a 1404 01:37:02.960 --> 01:37:10.520 way of rooking that uh, that that ambition. So it's 1405 01:37:10.520 --> 01:37:12.760 more complicated than just Reagan being you know, I'm gonna 1406 01:37:14.039 --> 01:37:16.399 it's still gonna hawk ish. Uh, it's still got a 1407 01:37:16.439 --> 01:37:21.079 reckless hawk and it's it's not just a matter of uh, 1408 01:37:21.239 --> 01:37:25.079 you know, Pentagon types and in defense intelligence types saying well, 1409 01:37:25.159 --> 01:37:28.079 let's spoof, let's spoof Ivan, you know, to the brink 1410 01:37:28.159 --> 01:37:29.680 and see what he does. I mean, there was an 1411 01:37:29.680 --> 01:37:33.479 aspect of that too, But it is. It is, uh, 1412 01:37:33.640 --> 01:37:37.880 it is slightly more complicated and more than slightly, but 1413 01:37:37.960 --> 01:37:40.920 it I gotta pause when it to reeth my water. 1414 01:37:40.960 --> 01:37:44.319 I'm really dried out. Is that okay? Yeah, I thank 1415 01:37:44.399 --> 01:37:51.079 THEE and yeah, the I mean, on the one hand, 1416 01:37:51.479 --> 01:37:56.039 I obviously and I mean this isn't really material were disgusting. 1417 01:37:56.079 --> 01:37:59.479 I mean, obviously, my some of these uh in history 1418 01:37:59.800 --> 01:38:03.319 uh uh are are what you know yackys were, And 1419 01:38:03.399 --> 01:38:06.680 I I realized this is very much a way of 1420 01:38:06.760 --> 01:38:10.880 holding Europe hostage quite literally to the Cold War. But 1421 01:38:10.920 --> 01:38:14.680 at the same time, I mean it within the bounded 1422 01:38:14.800 --> 01:38:25.600 rationality of that Europe was afforded. Your Europe was ultimately 1423 01:38:25.600 --> 01:38:30.520 made more secure because again Reagan's ultimatum was uh, you know, 1424 01:38:30.880 --> 01:38:34.560 in nuclear for Europe, and that was accomplished, you know, ultimately, 1425 01:38:34.640 --> 01:38:38.880 I mean it it it. It wasn't until well into 1426 01:38:38.920 --> 01:38:41.159 Reagan's second term and after you know, the kind of 1427 01:38:41.159 --> 01:38:44.319 concuord itcounts with Gruschev. But all these things were a process, 1428 01:38:44.359 --> 01:38:46.000 and you know, like I said, next episode, we'll get 1429 01:38:46.039 --> 01:38:48.199 into the view from the Soviet side quite literally, but 1430 01:38:48.800 --> 01:38:56.279 there had to the crisis. Uh that the crisis cycle 1431 01:38:56.359 --> 01:38:58.840 is becoming more and more critical and if you look 1432 01:38:58.880 --> 01:39:02.720 at it and you know, the uh, the Korean War, 1433 01:39:02.960 --> 01:39:07.319 the Chinese intervention in the Korean War, really that that 1434 01:39:07.520 --> 01:39:11.079 very well could have led to a general nuclear war 1435 01:39:12.119 --> 01:39:18.880 a N fifty three, uh not ninety fifty three, ninety 1436 01:39:18.920 --> 01:39:24.279 sixty two in Cuba ninety seventy three, you know, in 1437 01:39:23.920 --> 01:39:28.199 the Mid East War nineteen eighty three with uh, you know, 1438 01:39:28.279 --> 01:39:33.199 able Archer Reforger and the emergent you know, uh deep 1439 01:39:33.239 --> 01:39:36.439 parodies that you know, gave riseen and drop off some 1440 01:39:37.159 --> 01:39:40.439 project rhon like this was becoming unsustainable and more and 1441 01:39:40.479 --> 01:39:44.359 more dangerous basically every decade, you know, like I, had 1442 01:39:44.359 --> 01:39:47.119 the Cold War endured into the you know, another twenty years, 1443 01:39:47.159 --> 01:39:48.960 there probably would have been a nuclear war by the 1444 01:39:49.039 --> 01:39:52.399 late nineteen nineties. Like I firmly believe that, you know, 1445 01:39:53.720 --> 01:39:59.159 and Gorbachev uh gets kind of a bad rap. I mean, 1446 01:39:59.199 --> 01:40:01.479 he was presiding over a structural crisis that I think 1447 01:40:01.560 --> 01:40:05.520 is basically imprecedented in the modern era. Okay, there the 1448 01:40:05.680 --> 01:40:11.279 Soviet Empire constituted like one of six of the planet. Okay, 1449 01:40:11.359 --> 01:40:16.439 like U and every the world was literally divided such 1450 01:40:16.520 --> 01:40:19.239 that you know, half the world was essentially you know, 1451 01:40:19.279 --> 01:40:22.159 the Soviet system was insinuated into it through kind of 1452 01:40:23.000 --> 01:40:25.640 I mean, I mean interdependence. And when you're talking about 1453 01:40:25.680 --> 01:40:28.239 you know, marginist letter, This planned economy is different than 1454 01:40:28.279 --> 01:40:31.119 you know, globalism. We know it. But you know, about 1455 01:40:31.119 --> 01:40:34.439 half the planet was reliant in some way, even if 1456 01:40:34.479 --> 01:40:37.239 it was just you know, occasional brain deliveries, you know, 1457 01:40:37.359 --> 01:40:41.359 or uh or strictly you know, military hardware to wage 1458 01:40:41.399 --> 01:40:47.680 you know, some Simon gooing, you know, Simon gooing, uh, 1459 01:40:47.800 --> 01:40:50.960 localized conflict you know what about about half the about 1460 01:40:50.960 --> 01:40:53.439 half the planet was reliant on the Soviet Union, just 1461 01:40:53.479 --> 01:40:56.039 as you know the competing blogs relying on the United 1462 01:40:56.039 --> 01:41:01.000 States and Europe. I mean, this was i in the 1463 01:41:01.119 --> 01:41:04.279 in the preceding five dred years. There's nothing comparable in 1464 01:41:04.319 --> 01:41:09.159 that except uh, you know, the except that the fall 1465 01:41:09.199 --> 01:41:12.760 of the Western Roman Empire. And even that wasn't like 1466 01:41:12.800 --> 01:41:15.319 it's punctuated. I mean, the Soviet Union fell apart like 1467 01:41:15.399 --> 01:41:17.359 in months, you know, I mean, and that the fact 1468 01:41:17.359 --> 01:41:20.319 that there wasn't there was violence. People have forgotten that now, 1469 01:41:20.359 --> 01:41:22.399 but I mean, you know, the actually learned guy, but 1470 01:41:22.479 --> 01:41:25.840 the you know, they're and you got to look at uh, 1471 01:41:26.159 --> 01:41:28.920 you know, you got to look at stuff. Uh, you know, 1472 01:41:29.000 --> 01:41:31.159 not just you know, in like chess Fan and Dakistan, 1473 01:41:31.239 --> 01:41:33.920 but also like you know, the bulk At wars as 1474 01:41:33.920 --> 01:41:37.279 direct I mean remote as they were in relative terms 1475 01:41:37.640 --> 01:41:39.359 from the Soviet Union. I mean you got to look 1476 01:41:39.359 --> 01:41:42.920 at those things as as approximately caused you know, by 1477 01:41:42.960 --> 01:41:47.079 the the punctuated shock the Soviet collapse. But point being 1478 01:41:47.119 --> 01:41:52.359 that it, uh, this was getting the conflict diad was getting, 1479 01:41:52.520 --> 01:41:55.479 it was getting, it was getting impossible to control. And 1480 01:41:55.720 --> 01:41:59.039 garbaschewv realized that the sovietnion needed a way out of 1481 01:41:59.079 --> 01:42:04.840 the Cold War. Okay, and and drop off because they 1482 01:42:04.960 --> 01:42:08.880 drop off was the consummate realist. Uh, and drop off 1483 01:42:08.920 --> 01:42:11.880 realize you know, what has to contemplate is the way 1484 01:42:11.880 --> 01:42:14.319 out of the Cold War to you know, wage a 1485 01:42:14.359 --> 01:42:17.960 preemptive nuclear war against the United States. And I mean obviously, 1486 01:42:18.000 --> 01:42:19.840 I mean America was thinking that too, you know, and 1487 01:42:20.439 --> 01:42:22.760 vice versa. You know, is this the way? Is this 1488 01:42:22.800 --> 01:42:25.479 the way out of the Cold War? But I mean 1489 01:42:25.560 --> 01:42:30.840 to say that, to say that this was dangerous, uh branksmanship, 1490 01:42:31.920 --> 01:42:34.000 it doesn't even scratch the service. It's been ridiculous these 1491 01:42:34.079 --> 01:42:36.159 days and people like, you know, this is the world 1492 01:42:36.199 --> 01:42:37.960 you created, This is like this is the most dangerous 1493 01:42:38.039 --> 01:42:40.239 time ever in world history. It's like, the fuck is 1494 01:42:40.279 --> 01:42:44.000 the matter with you? I mean, it's it's literally insane 1495 01:42:44.239 --> 01:42:47.319 that people think that way. You know, like the like 1496 01:42:47.359 --> 01:42:51.039 the single issue basically in every presidential election for forty 1497 01:42:51.119 --> 01:42:55.439 years was, you know, do we have a survival nuclear deterrent? 1498 01:42:57.079 --> 01:42:58.520 You know? And is the man of the old love 1499 01:42:58.600 --> 01:43:01.680 is gonna keep us alive? You know, because there's there's 1500 01:43:01.720 --> 01:43:04.560 like a very real possibility that you know, we might 1501 01:43:04.600 --> 01:43:07.079 become to make it dead when World War three happens, 1502 01:43:07.520 --> 01:43:10.479 you know. I mean that's I guess people under like 1503 01:43:10.800 --> 01:43:13.359 forty five or so like came and conceptualized that, but 1504 01:43:14.279 --> 01:43:17.119 it's I'm trying. It sounds like a cantankerous old guy. 1505 01:43:17.279 --> 01:43:24.880 But because it made this also, this goes to show 1506 01:43:24.920 --> 01:43:31.840 you how how uh how critical of these these these 1507 01:43:31.880 --> 01:43:36.720 wars in the periphery were in the nineteen eighties and something. 1508 01:43:36.880 --> 01:43:38.920 You know, we'll get into this in the next episode, 1509 01:43:40.119 --> 01:43:44.159 but you know, the the uh, the Battle for Central America, 1510 01:43:44.920 --> 01:43:48.239 you know, uh, Nicaragua becoming a prox literally a proxy 1511 01:43:48.239 --> 01:43:51.319 regime of the d d R, the Soviet Union, you know, 1512 01:43:51.439 --> 01:43:56.000 the uh, the the the proxy war in Chile. You know, 1513 01:43:56.039 --> 01:44:00.840 which led to uh, you know, Pinochet removing you know, 1514 01:44:00.880 --> 01:44:04.920 the Soviets client in Alende, you know, the war El Salvador. 1515 01:44:05.520 --> 01:44:07.680 I mean, these the Soviets are trying to rectify the 1516 01:44:07.680 --> 01:44:15.119 strategic the strategic imbalance by carving out comunist blocks that 1517 01:44:15.159 --> 01:44:18.039 would have changed everything, you know. I mean, and it's 1518 01:44:18.199 --> 01:44:21.560 the Soviet Union was doing something's right. I mean, like 1519 01:44:21.560 --> 01:44:24.479 I said before, I think from nineteen seventy three until 1520 01:44:24.520 --> 01:44:27.600 about nineteen eighty two, the Soviet Union was winning the 1521 01:44:27.640 --> 01:44:32.520 Cold War in military terms, in political, sociological, technological terms, 1522 01:44:32.560 --> 01:44:36.479 they were losing. And he's been pure military terms. They 1523 01:44:36.479 --> 01:44:39.399 were racking up victory after victory after victory, you know, 1524 01:44:39.479 --> 01:44:43.119 like in Africa, in Latin America, in East Asia, like 1525 01:44:43.479 --> 01:44:48.319 you know, the this is not a good thing. I mean, however, 1526 01:44:48.439 --> 01:44:52.680 you wherever you fell on. I'm talking about, you know, 1527 01:44:52.840 --> 01:44:54.560 people who are saying I'm not talking about crazy is 1528 01:44:54.600 --> 01:44:58.760 like Peter Ronett and like the the kind of the 1529 01:44:58.800 --> 01:45:01.560 kind of crazy Karens you know, calling for nuclear disarmament. 1530 01:45:01.640 --> 01:45:05.560 And I'm talking about people actually sensible, whether whether you 1531 01:45:05.600 --> 01:45:09.640 love Reagan or not, or whether you or whether you know, 1532 01:45:09.640 --> 01:45:12.640 we're particularly on board with the kind of cold or enterprise. 1533 01:45:13.359 --> 01:45:16.359 You know, this was not the prosect of the Soviet 1534 01:45:16.439 --> 01:45:18.000 Union kind of you know, like we talked about in 1535 01:45:18.000 --> 01:45:20.840 previous episodes, you know, kind of becoming like the only 1536 01:45:20.880 --> 01:45:24.119 true superpower because the third world is you know, basically 1537 01:45:24.199 --> 01:45:27.840 signed on with you know, with Marxist Leninism. So America 1538 01:45:27.920 --> 01:45:30.479 is just kind of like it's kind of like fortress 1539 01:45:30.800 --> 01:45:35.880 scaring state amidst the hostile world of of of of 1540 01:45:36.000 --> 01:45:41.039 tinpot dictators and kind of crazy uh shaku vira types 1541 01:45:41.079 --> 01:45:46.159 like that would not have been a good thing. Man. 1542 01:45:47.920 --> 01:45:55.560 Yeah, what is NATO today? I mean what I mean, 1543 01:45:55.640 --> 01:45:58.399 it's not NATO, So what the hell is it? 1544 01:45:59.279 --> 01:46:04.560 I mean, it's it's the alibi America invokes for unilateral aggression. 1545 01:46:05.239 --> 01:46:08.920 But I mean there's something even if even if that's 1546 01:46:08.960 --> 01:46:13.520 your notion like NATO, those kinds of alliances are obsolete anyway. 1547 01:46:13.960 --> 01:46:16.600 And it's like I said before, like you know, so 1548 01:46:16.920 --> 01:46:21.560 uh uh America's carrying out terrorist acts against its allies 1549 01:46:21.600 --> 01:46:25.119 in Germany. Like even before that, it's like Turkey is 1550 01:46:25.159 --> 01:46:28.960 a Turkey is the only probably the only like comment 1551 01:46:29.079 --> 01:46:32.399 capable like other like NATO member, and like America's periodically 1552 01:46:32.399 --> 01:46:34.439 at war with them like by proxy. So it's like 1553 01:46:34.439 --> 01:46:37.279 it's America obligated to attack itself because it's like it's 1554 01:46:37.359 --> 01:46:40.159 ally Turkey has been attacked and like incident to the 1555 01:46:40.199 --> 01:46:42.840 NATO charter, it's like an express condition. I mean that's 1556 01:46:42.880 --> 01:46:44.800 some thing that's like goofy. This was made in the 1557 01:46:44.880 --> 01:46:47.680 nineties or like Kissinger said that and then late nineties 1558 01:46:47.720 --> 01:46:50.680 I met because during nineteen ninety nine and to his credit, 1559 01:46:51.079 --> 01:46:53.079 you know, he was one of the few voices it 1560 01:46:53.159 --> 01:46:56.600 really was coming out against Clinton's war on Serbia and 1561 01:46:57.840 --> 01:47:00.479 the kids that are made that pointium back then. He's 1562 01:47:00.520 --> 01:47:04.880 like what like what like so so so like NATO 1563 01:47:05.079 --> 01:47:07.680 is like, uh to provide a nuclear umbrella of defense 1564 01:47:08.119 --> 01:47:11.359 against like you know, the great power of slovan On Melosovich. 1565 01:47:11.479 --> 01:47:13.880 Like it doesn't, I mean it doesn't. Like that's not 1566 01:47:14.359 --> 01:47:16.640 even if even if you needed some kind of like 1567 01:47:17.359 --> 01:47:21.760 it namely uh you know sort of it's sort of 1568 01:47:21.800 --> 01:47:25.800 you know force uh structuring alliance, you know, to allow 1569 01:47:25.840 --> 01:47:29.640 America kind of like deploy to deploy whatever wanted, uh 1570 01:47:29.800 --> 01:47:33.319 willy nilly, Like it doesn't make sense to like may 1571 01:47:33.399 --> 01:47:36.399 try and maintain the NATO fiction. Like it just doesn't 1572 01:47:36.399 --> 01:47:38.239 make sense. On his face if you're gonna try and 1573 01:47:38.279 --> 01:47:41.560 do that. I mean, that's why the Shanghai Cooperation Organization 1574 01:47:42.720 --> 01:47:45.520 is actually a pretty for looking alliance all kinds of ways, 1575 01:47:45.640 --> 01:47:48.880 you know, and it's it's got a military aspect. It's 1576 01:47:48.880 --> 01:47:51.479 gonna ask an economic independence, you know. It accounts to 1577 01:47:51.520 --> 01:47:55.079 that kind of the fluid nature of the current music landscape. 1578 01:47:55.239 --> 01:47:58.800 Like Russia didn't say, like, well, warsaw packs still exists. Yeah, 1579 01:47:59.000 --> 01:48:01.560 you know, this is warsaw at. You know, I get 1580 01:48:01.600 --> 01:48:05.840 any you know, any uh and any any uh if 1581 01:48:05.880 --> 01:48:08.520 any foreign troops like set foot in Kazakhstan, We're gonna 1582 01:48:08.520 --> 01:48:11.800 wage nuclear war on you. Like when that doesn't you know, 1583 01:48:11.840 --> 01:48:14.199 it's like even like a principle of law too. Again, 1584 01:48:14.239 --> 01:48:17.560 aside from the kind of absurdity that in bad faith 1585 01:48:17.600 --> 01:48:20.560 the concerts natal and any contract and the treaty at 1586 01:48:20.600 --> 01:48:23.399 the end of the day is just a permissive contract. 1587 01:48:24.079 --> 01:48:27.239 The express conditions of it have to be rational, you know, 1588 01:48:27.439 --> 01:48:30.840 and they're just not. And it's like, okay, an attack 1589 01:48:30.920 --> 01:48:32.960 on an attack on Hungary as Rita as an attack 1590 01:48:33.039 --> 01:48:36.199 on the United States, like America is obligated to go 1591 01:48:36.199 --> 01:48:38.479 to war with itself because of the attagging Turkey, which 1592 01:48:38.479 --> 01:48:40.920 is its ally like it doesn't you know, I mean 1593 01:48:41.600 --> 01:48:45.119 I'm being I'm being a jig off and deliberately up two, 1594 01:48:45.199 --> 01:48:48.359 so I kind of am. But uh yeah, it doesn't. 1595 01:48:48.600 --> 01:48:51.920 It's it doesn't make any sense. And this part of it, too, 1596 01:48:52.039 --> 01:48:53.960 is just kind of the foolishness of the bureaucrat, Like 1597 01:48:53.960 --> 01:48:57.800 this idea that you know name exists for its own 1598 01:48:57.880 --> 01:48:59.800 sake because it's it's at the point of it is 1599 01:48:59.800 --> 01:49:02.079 to just exist, and like it's just it's just this 1600 01:49:02.239 --> 01:49:05.960 awesome thing for reasons nobody can articulate, you know. Uh, 1601 01:49:06.159 --> 01:49:08.640 it's like it doesn't. It's like, well, for that reason, 1602 01:49:08.720 --> 01:49:15.079 it's like, okay, well this does that mean that like 1603 01:49:15.119 --> 01:49:17.960 the America should abide like the express conditions like the Yelta, 1604 01:49:18.479 --> 01:49:20.640 because like that's how America and the Soviet Union won 1605 01:49:20.720 --> 01:49:24.359 World War Two? Like, uh, I mean, should should Austria 1606 01:49:24.399 --> 01:49:27.600 started invoking like cont trees, you know, uh, Entine doing 1607 01:49:27.640 --> 01:49:30.680 the Habsburg Empire Like I don't. It doesn't make any sense, 1608 01:49:30.840 --> 01:49:35.760 but it's a clumsy way of preserving the fiction that 1609 01:49:35.800 --> 01:49:37.840 this this is that this is some kind of like 1610 01:49:38.079 --> 01:49:41.119 you know that that this is some sort of like 1611 01:49:41.159 --> 01:49:46.119 common defense. Uh, architecture and not just you know, unilateral aggression. 1612 01:49:48.239 --> 01:49:51.800 That's I mean, that's that's you know, the short answer. 1613 01:49:52.800 --> 01:49:56.119 Well, yeah, you got to get at Yeah, this is 1614 01:49:56.119 --> 01:49:58.319 really good. I know you got to get out of town. 1615 01:49:58.439 --> 01:50:03.159 So do some plugs and uh yeah. 1616 01:50:02.039 --> 01:50:04.880 Yeah, thank you, Pete. You can currently find me on 1617 01:50:04.960 --> 01:50:10.600 burb app uh Twitter that is at real Underscore number 1618 01:50:10.640 --> 01:50:13.520 seven h m as seven seven seven. You find me 1619 01:50:13.520 --> 01:50:21.039 on sub stack uh at real Thomas seven seven seven 1620 01:50:21.119 --> 01:50:24.920 dot subsack dot com. Check out the chat on there 1621 01:50:24.960 --> 01:50:29.199 because I'm active there. I'm back on t gram. Uh 1622 01:50:29.359 --> 01:50:31.800 just search out my name and you'll find the channel 1623 01:50:34.079 --> 01:50:39.319 at Uh. Yeah, well I got when I I'm going 1624 01:50:39.319 --> 01:50:43.720 out of town the next few days. I get back 1625 01:50:43.760 --> 01:50:46.319 on Sunday, and then Monday I'm gonna start shooting dedicated 1626 01:50:46.399 --> 01:50:50.479 content for the channel at long last. So that's what 1627 01:50:50.520 --> 01:50:53.279 I'm gonna be working on and that I will drop 1628 01:50:53.319 --> 01:50:57.279 that imminent leap when I get back. But for the 1629 01:50:57.319 --> 01:50:59.640 next two days I'm not gonna be like real active 1630 01:50:59.680 --> 01:51:01.680 content wise. If you got to get a hold of me, 1631 01:51:01.960 --> 01:51:04.760 just like be patient until Sunday. Please, That's all I got. 1632 01:51:05.199 --> 01:51:06.960 Appreciated, Thomas, Thank you very much. 1633 01:51:07.000 --> 01:51:07.840 Thank you much. 1634 01:51:09.359 --> 01:51:14.039 I want to welcome everyone back to the show. What's 1635 01:51:14.079 --> 01:51:15.319 going on, Thomas, How are you doing? 1636 01:51:16.279 --> 01:51:20.800 I'm doing well. I'm getting terrorized by Twitter again, I mean, 1637 01:51:20.800 --> 01:51:22.520 after for nothing. I just wanted to like put people 1638 01:51:22.560 --> 01:51:25.359 on notice about that because when it happens like people 1639 01:51:25.359 --> 01:51:27.920 seem to get upset. And I mean I appreciate that. 1640 01:51:28.119 --> 01:51:30.359 I appreciate people like care enough about my content that 1641 01:51:30.359 --> 01:51:32.159 they get upset if they think is going away. But 1642 01:51:33.199 --> 01:51:38.560 what happened. I realized what happened. Periodically I complaints are 1643 01:51:38.600 --> 01:51:43.800 lobbied against my account by the Office of the Protection 1644 01:51:43.840 --> 01:51:47.560 of the Constitution in the bundest Republic. I mean it's 1645 01:51:47.720 --> 01:51:49.640 you think they I mean realize that's like a make 1646 01:51:49.680 --> 01:51:56.039 work uh you know uh or William bureaucracy. But you 1647 01:51:56.039 --> 01:51:59.079 think there are any things to do than harass a 1648 01:51:59.199 --> 01:52:02.720 kind of creator in America. But they've done that before. 1649 01:52:02.920 --> 01:52:06.479 Every time they do it, Twitter finds some arbitrary reason 1650 01:52:06.680 --> 01:52:08.920 or no reason at all is suspend me or ban me. 1651 01:52:09.399 --> 01:52:12.079 They claim that I'm banned for a week. I mean, 1652 01:52:12.079 --> 01:52:15.159 I'm trying to disengage from Twitter as much as possible anyway, 1653 01:52:15.359 --> 01:52:16.880 you know, But I know a lot of people that's 1654 01:52:16.960 --> 01:52:19.520 kind of still like where they try to find me 1655 01:52:19.560 --> 01:52:23.239 and stuff. But if I'm not back on Twitter in 1656 01:52:23.279 --> 01:52:26.479 a week, I mean just like hit us up on 1657 01:52:27.079 --> 01:52:31.800 substick or on t Gram. And I launched the channel 1658 01:52:31.840 --> 01:52:36.199 promo so that people know that, you know, by April first, 1659 01:52:36.520 --> 01:52:43.079 I'll have uploaded the first episode, you know. And I 1660 01:52:41.760 --> 01:52:48.079 I owe a tremendoustetic gratitude to my guy Rake, who 1661 01:52:49.039 --> 01:52:50.840 you know, he's just incredible with what he can do 1662 01:52:50.920 --> 01:52:54.920 with you know, video editing and things like that. And 1663 01:52:54.960 --> 01:52:58.039 he and I are are gonna are gonna bear down 1664 01:52:58.079 --> 01:53:04.359 on filming next week. So I mean blown if we're 1665 01:53:04.399 --> 01:53:07.119 if if if if we are like permanently kicked off 1666 01:53:07.159 --> 01:53:10.239 bourback again, like it doesn't matter. It's happened like nine times. 1667 01:53:10.399 --> 01:53:14.159 So but that's that's that I just wanted to I 1668 01:53:14.199 --> 01:53:16.159 just I just wanted to like get people put people 1669 01:53:16.199 --> 01:53:17.760 in notice about that. 1670 01:53:17.920 --> 01:53:20.439 But yeah, well one of these things what we should 1671 01:53:20.479 --> 01:53:24.119 do is we should go over that intro video and 1672 01:53:24.359 --> 01:53:27.000 just have you detail like where every I mean I 1673 01:53:27.039 --> 01:53:29.399 saw some video drone in there, and I saw a 1674 01:53:29.399 --> 01:53:31.039 couple of yeah, I saw a couple of other things 1675 01:53:31.079 --> 01:53:33.680 just to like. 1676 01:53:33.560 --> 01:53:35.840 And yeah, he just asked me, uh yeah, I mean, 1677 01:53:35.840 --> 01:53:37.520 he's like a movie guy too. He's like, I mean 1678 01:53:37.560 --> 01:53:39.560 he's one of us, you know, like not just in 1679 01:53:39.640 --> 01:53:41.840 terms of politics, but you know, like he's like a 1680 01:53:41.840 --> 01:53:44.640 culture guy and like an optics guy, and he's in 1681 01:53:44.680 --> 01:53:46.520 a like style and stuff and movies and that's one 1682 01:53:46.520 --> 01:53:48.720 of the reasons we became like good friends. But he 1683 01:53:48.880 --> 01:53:51.039 basically asked me, like what kind of movies were Like, 1684 01:53:51.159 --> 01:53:52.479 He's like, I know the kind of Shoot, you're into it. 1685 01:53:52.560 --> 01:53:54.359 He's like, give me, like, have it us in your 1686 01:53:54.359 --> 01:53:57.560 favorite movies. It's like I did, and uh, like all 1687 01:53:57.600 --> 01:53:58.840 of them are in there, and there's like a bunch 1688 01:53:58.840 --> 01:54:01.600 of other just like crazy stuff. But it's yeah, it's 1689 01:54:01.600 --> 01:54:04.399 really incredible. Man. I'm not I'm not just like I'm 1690 01:54:04.399 --> 01:54:07.319 not just like stroking myself because you know, it's like 1691 01:54:07.960 --> 01:54:12.439 my content. I it's like really freaking cool. But uh yeah, 1692 01:54:12.520 --> 01:54:14.520 you know, I'm very very lucky to have him on 1693 01:54:14.560 --> 01:54:16.600 board man. And he'll he'll be in front of the 1694 01:54:16.640 --> 01:54:19.479 camera sometimes too, and like I I think people appreciate 1695 01:54:19.520 --> 01:54:22.640 that because he's, uh he's he's a really funny dude. 1696 01:54:22.680 --> 01:54:25.720 And uh you know, yeah, you'll you'll so you'll you'll 1697 01:54:25.920 --> 01:54:28.000 you people will get to meet him and and kind 1698 01:54:28.000 --> 01:54:30.880 of see like what he's about. But yeah, I the 1699 01:54:30.920 --> 01:54:34.880 responsibilit one has been overwhelmingly positive and I really appreciate that, 1700 01:54:35.079 --> 01:54:38.000 and I believe it'll be worth the way, not because 1701 01:54:38.079 --> 01:54:41.560 like I'm so great or anything, but I think I've 1702 01:54:41.600 --> 01:54:43.960 got a sense of what people want to see and 1703 01:54:44.039 --> 01:54:47.960 hear about, and I'm really really dedicating kind of like 1704 01:54:48.000 --> 01:54:50.560 all my time and energy to you know, providing that 1705 01:54:50.680 --> 01:54:53.680 in equality capacity. So yeah, I think he'll be very 1706 01:54:53.720 --> 01:54:57.319 good man. Well yeah, wiping myself and you. 1707 01:54:57.279 --> 01:54:58.920 Know, all we have to do is make sure that 1708 01:55:00.000 --> 01:55:03.000 people also subscribe to the Odyssey channel, because I think 1709 01:55:03.039 --> 01:55:05.199 we all know that the YouTube channel is probably. 1710 01:55:04.840 --> 01:55:08.159 Not gonna I mean it's there's gonna be like copyright 1711 01:55:08.199 --> 01:55:11.199 strikes all fucking day. But also as soonas they figure 1712 01:55:11.199 --> 01:55:13.880 out what I'm doing, I mean they're gonna cancel it. 1713 01:55:14.119 --> 01:55:16.800 But I mean that's fine. I'm basically gonna saturate every 1714 01:55:16.840 --> 01:55:20.079 platform I can. You know, everybody's like you gotta get 1715 01:55:20.119 --> 01:55:21.840 on Cozy. It's like, well, I don't. I don't know 1716 01:55:21.920 --> 01:55:25.000 Nick flent Days. I mean, I like, like at all, 1717 01:55:25.039 --> 01:55:27.640 I've never I've never spoken to the dude, even by 1718 01:55:27.760 --> 01:55:30.680 like text or something. I'm not gonna like presume like 1719 01:55:30.720 --> 01:55:34.720 he wants my ship on his freaking platform. I'll ask him, 1720 01:55:34.960 --> 01:55:37.039 you know. I mean, but it's I'm not gonna I'm 1721 01:55:37.039 --> 01:55:39.439 not gonna just like assume like, oh, of course he 1722 01:55:39.520 --> 01:55:43.399 wants my ship on his on his you know platform. 1723 01:55:43.439 --> 01:55:45.960 But even if we don't fuck with Cozy, you know, 1724 01:55:46.039 --> 01:55:49.000 there's plenty of other there's plenty of other other platforms 1725 01:55:49.000 --> 01:55:51.840 we can utilize that are are friendly or at least neutral. 1726 01:55:51.920 --> 01:55:54.439 It'll be fine. And you can you can upload video 1727 01:55:54.520 --> 01:55:57.199 direct or you can you can shoot directly on substack, 1728 01:55:57.880 --> 01:56:02.399 or you can upload the pretty much unless you're trying 1729 01:56:02.399 --> 01:56:05.560 to upload like an entire freaking movie link thing. I mean, 1730 01:56:05.640 --> 01:56:09.560 it's like I all fails. I mean, i'd yeah, i'd 1731 01:56:09.560 --> 01:56:12.399 be like just you know, uploading my stuff to Odyssey 1732 01:56:12.680 --> 01:56:14.880 and substick. I mean, we're gonna say, I trade a 1733 01:56:14.880 --> 01:56:17.399 lot more than myth but it'll be I I realize 1734 01:56:17.399 --> 01:56:19.479 I'm gonna get gangs from YouTube. The reason I dropped 1735 01:56:19.479 --> 01:56:21.720 it dres so that people can find us and know 1736 01:56:21.800 --> 01:56:23.439 about it. But yeah, all right. 1737 01:56:24.239 --> 01:56:27.520 I streamed to YouTube yesterday in the middle of the 1738 01:56:27.520 --> 01:56:29.680 afternoon and then like as soon as it ended. I 1739 01:56:29.680 --> 01:56:33.560 immediately deleted the video because I mean I just knew 1740 01:56:33.560 --> 01:56:35.359 what some of the stuff, some of the stuff that 1741 01:56:35.399 --> 01:56:37.119 we said in it was just like it was, It's 1742 01:56:37.119 --> 01:56:38.640 what I've gotten strikes for before. 1743 01:56:38.800 --> 01:56:42.000 I mean, does this one dude? Uh, I don't want 1744 01:56:42.000 --> 01:56:44.399 to drop his names. I don't want he seems like 1745 01:56:44.399 --> 01:56:47.479 an a political guy and I don't I don't want to. 1746 01:56:47.479 --> 01:56:50.000 I don't want to. Like people are terrorizing him, like uh, 1747 01:56:50.600 --> 01:56:52.840 he's like this he's just kind of like crazy like 1748 01:56:53.079 --> 01:56:56.079 uh like like like like horror and cult movie guy, 1749 01:56:56.520 --> 01:56:59.439 Like he gets strikes constantly over just like like total 1750 01:56:59.479 --> 01:57:02.800 bullshit like literally like it seems like and he's constantly 1751 01:57:02.840 --> 01:57:06.479 apologizing with subs. He's got like twenty dollars subscribers, because 1752 01:57:06.479 --> 01:57:09.880 like it's just caust of getting yanked and it's it's 1753 01:57:10.279 --> 01:57:12.680 you know, uh, I mean for the most dubious a reason. 1754 01:57:12.720 --> 01:57:14.880 It's like my point being, I mean, yeah, there were 1755 01:57:14.920 --> 01:57:18.159 absolutely gonna get terrorized like you are. But that's that 1756 01:57:18.199 --> 01:57:21.840 doesn't matter. The whole point is, you know, like I 1757 01:57:21.880 --> 01:57:25.439 do have a YouTube channel right now that people kind 1758 01:57:25.479 --> 01:57:27.039 of like YouTube's kind of like their first go to 1759 01:57:27.159 --> 01:57:29.800 for stuff. But it'll it'll be fine, man, I mean 1760 01:57:29.800 --> 01:57:33.640 I I built the substick basically with no social media presidents, 1761 01:57:33.680 --> 01:57:35.279 because it seems like I launched it that was like 1762 01:57:35.319 --> 01:57:37.319 the first time got perm band from Twitter. I didn't 1763 01:57:37.319 --> 01:57:39.520 get back on Twitter about nine months, you know, I 1764 01:57:39.560 --> 01:57:42.079 didn't have an Instagram. Then like I got on t 1765 01:57:42.279 --> 01:57:44.960 gram you know, after about six months. But it'll, I mean, 1766 01:57:45.000 --> 01:57:47.560 it'll be fine. You know, people people are loyal and 1767 01:57:47.600 --> 01:57:51.119 they follow us, and we've got we got a good 1768 01:57:51.239 --> 01:57:53.720 you know, community of people who know how to you know, 1769 01:57:53.800 --> 01:57:55.039 kind of like remain in contact. 1770 01:57:55.119 --> 01:57:58.359 But yeah, yeah, I've started I've started streaming. When I 1771 01:57:58.399 --> 01:58:03.199 do my streams to Odyssey and Rumble and immediately uploads 1772 01:58:03.239 --> 01:58:05.399 a bit shoot, you know, the dark side of the Internet. 1773 01:58:05.880 --> 01:58:08.279 And yeah, no, exactly exactly. 1774 01:58:08.880 --> 01:58:10.760 So I don't even know what what do you want 1775 01:58:10.760 --> 01:58:12.199 to talk about today? 1776 01:58:13.399 --> 01:58:19.640 Today? Last time we covered you know, able Archer and uh, 1777 01:58:19.880 --> 01:58:25.000 you know, the kind of command to control concerns relating 1778 01:58:25.039 --> 01:58:31.840 to the deep parodies emergent post a tent because that 1779 01:58:31.840 --> 01:58:35.239 that that's that that's kind of the key that kind 1780 01:58:35.239 --> 01:58:39.800 of nexus of events and causes, that's kind of the 1781 01:58:39.880 --> 01:58:45.399 key juncture of of of of you know, final Cold 1782 01:58:45.439 --> 01:58:51.000 War tensions that approached true crisis dimensions. But there's a 1783 01:58:51.079 --> 01:58:54.000 context to how and why that happened, and I want 1784 01:58:54.000 --> 01:58:56.560 to get into that today, like what happened to day Tant. 1785 01:58:57.000 --> 01:59:01.079 We're gonna go a little bit backwards, okay, And as 1786 01:59:01.119 --> 01:59:07.399 we mentioned, Able Archer happened in October nineteen eighty three, 1787 01:59:08.000 --> 01:59:14.279 there was immediate precursors to that that dramatically exacerbated tensions 1788 01:59:14.720 --> 01:59:20.279 and really kind of created in you know, in I 1789 01:59:20.359 --> 01:59:23.960 kind of generated a zeitgeist of not war fever, but 1790 01:59:25.399 --> 01:59:28.399 what what was What is esteemed you know, unthinkable only 1791 01:59:28.439 --> 01:59:32.119 a few years before suddenly became very possible again. And 1792 01:59:32.720 --> 01:59:35.279 there was very much an atmosphere of terror. I mean, 1793 01:59:35.319 --> 01:59:37.079 you remember the actually little ole than me. I was 1794 01:59:37.119 --> 01:59:39.880 a little kid, and my mom was singularly terrified in 1795 01:59:39.960 --> 01:59:43.039 nuclear war. Okay, I mean a lot of people were, 1796 01:59:43.079 --> 01:59:47.520 and my mom was like, I don't want to drop 1797 01:59:47.560 --> 01:59:50.279 some highly personal weird thing, but my mom was kind 1798 01:59:50.279 --> 01:59:53.439 of like apocalyptic and or thinking quite literally, and this 1799 01:59:53.520 --> 01:59:57.880 didn't help any And obviously my dad was reinsinuated into 1800 01:59:57.880 --> 02:00:02.760 the Cold War, so it was but everybody, I mean, 1801 02:00:02.800 --> 02:00:04.520 it was like everybody in the country was like that, 1802 02:00:04.720 --> 02:00:06.479 I mean, and to some degree or another. You know, 1803 02:00:06.640 --> 02:00:09.479 when I can't emphasize that enough to younger people, and 1804 02:00:09.520 --> 02:00:11.960 even as a little kid, obviously I couldn't. It was 1805 02:00:12.000 --> 02:00:13.680 it was a few more years before I could fully 1806 02:00:13.760 --> 02:00:19.039 understand what this was about. But you you fully, even 1807 02:00:19.079 --> 02:00:22.560 as a small boy, I fully grasped that, you know, 1808 02:00:22.680 --> 02:00:27.760 this was monumentally terrifying. Now. Honestly, like if they, if they, 1809 02:00:27.800 --> 02:00:30.359 if if i'd been like a you know, a guy 1810 02:00:30.399 --> 02:00:32.960 pushing fifty in nineteen eighty three, I frankly I wouldn't 1811 02:00:32.960 --> 02:00:35.479 really care. I mean, that's not that's not some fucking 1812 02:00:35.680 --> 02:00:37.800 edge of the lord shit like legit. I mean, you 1813 02:00:37.880 --> 02:00:41.000 just like learn like you just like learn to you 1814 02:00:41.079 --> 02:00:44.159 come to terms with things, and you know, the the 1815 02:00:44.319 --> 02:00:47.520 kind of frailial life and things don't seem scary anymore. 1816 02:00:47.560 --> 02:00:49.880 But yeah, as like a kid or like a young 1817 02:00:49.920 --> 02:00:53.640 person like it was, it was kind of awful. But 1818 02:00:55.319 --> 02:00:59.479 in any event, let's uh, let's dive into it, but 1819 02:00:59.640 --> 02:01:06.039 proceed did able. Archer by several months was the disruption 1820 02:01:06.119 --> 02:01:09.199 of Korean Airlines flight double O seven. What was KL 1821 02:01:09.279 --> 02:01:14.119 flight OH seven KL flight O seven. It was a 1822 02:01:14.159 --> 02:01:17.880 Korean Airlines flight obviously from New York City, or yeah, 1823 02:01:17.880 --> 02:01:21.119 from New York City to Seoul via Anchorage, which in 1824 02:01:21.159 --> 02:01:25.880 those days, uh was the common flight pattern. You know, Uh, 1825 02:01:26.159 --> 02:01:28.840 the sol South Korea was a key kind of Cold 1826 02:01:28.920 --> 02:01:33.279 War proxy client state. But you know, this is not 1827 02:01:33.359 --> 02:01:35.399 the South Korea of the two thousands, you know, the 1828 02:01:35.800 --> 02:01:37.920 ninth largest economy in the world or something, you know, 1829 02:01:39.680 --> 02:01:42.640 other than uh, other than in in in kind of 1830 02:01:42.640 --> 02:01:45.279 political and military terms, the van Korea was kind of 1831 02:01:45.279 --> 02:01:49.640 a backwater. So on these flights to Korea there tended 1832 02:01:49.680 --> 02:01:52.840 to be a lot of a lot of heavy personages 1833 02:01:52.840 --> 02:01:57.880 from the national security establishment, the diplomatic corps, you know, 1834 02:01:58.239 --> 02:02:03.079 these kinds of these kinds of these kinds of you know, communities, 1835 02:02:04.279 --> 02:02:10.319 and and KL double seven was no exception. What befell 1836 02:02:10.600 --> 02:02:15.960 KAL flight O seven, well KL O seven straight into 1837 02:02:16.000 --> 02:02:21.960 Soviet airspace and about the same time we're talking like 1838 02:02:22.000 --> 02:02:25.239 within you know, a couple of hours of a of 1839 02:02:25.279 --> 02:02:30.840 an American aerial reconnaissance mission. During the late Cold War, 1840 02:02:31.079 --> 02:02:35.600 America was constantly spoofing Soviet early warning or buzzing it, 1841 02:02:35.800 --> 02:02:37.800 you know, to see kind of what would cause it 1842 02:02:37.840 --> 02:02:41.119 to light up proverbially and to kind of gauge what 1843 02:02:41.399 --> 02:02:45.199 their uh, you know, what their what their protocol was, 1844 02:02:45.600 --> 02:02:48.319 you know, the literally literally the order of operations, you know, 1845 02:02:48.399 --> 02:02:55.000 when when hostile aircraft reached their airspace, possibly incident to 1846 02:02:55.039 --> 02:03:02.039 a nuclear attack. And unfortunately for the passengers and crew 1847 02:03:02.079 --> 02:03:07.239 of kl O seven, a Boeing seven forty seven, even 1848 02:03:07.399 --> 02:03:14.840 at visual range, looks almost identical to an a wax aircraft. Okay, 1849 02:03:15.000 --> 02:03:22.520 And in those days still for certain UH deployment of 1850 02:03:22.560 --> 02:03:29.479 certain weapons platforms, you would advance deployee a UH a 1851 02:03:33.199 --> 02:03:35.359 what's called a masson M M A S I N 1852 02:03:35.439 --> 02:03:39.720 T aircraft in order to acquire targets in order to discern, 1853 02:03:41.039 --> 02:03:44.680 you know, what air defenses were present, as well as 1854 02:03:44.720 --> 02:03:48.920 to interpret, detect and interpret, you know, any electronic signaling 1855 02:03:49.239 --> 02:03:53.199 which could then be you know, deciphered or interpreted to 1856 02:03:53.279 --> 02:03:57.279 paint a picture of what the state of enemy command 1857 02:03:57.279 --> 02:04:02.239 and control was within the target area, you know, theater wide. 1858 02:04:03.279 --> 02:04:05.920 And this was also a particular concern because, as we 1859 02:04:06.039 --> 02:04:12.640 discussed in the last episode, American UH nuclear war planning 1860 02:04:12.920 --> 02:04:19.000 by nineteen eighty two eighty three essentially involved forcing warsaw 1861 02:04:19.079 --> 02:04:21.439 pack to fight a two front nuclear war, if we 1862 02:04:21.479 --> 02:04:24.920 could even think of nuclear com band is having fronts 1863 02:04:25.840 --> 02:04:31.920 assaulting the Soviet Union hard in the Pacific, knocking out 1864 02:04:32.880 --> 02:04:36.800 their commanding control in Central Asia, you know, and and 1865 02:04:36.840 --> 02:04:43.039 then saturating them U with you know, with with with 1866 02:04:43.119 --> 02:04:47.239 heavy bombers, IS and and and naval based weapons platforms 1867 02:04:47.279 --> 02:04:53.000 would potentially, you know, uh, it would potentially accomplish the 1868 02:04:53.039 --> 02:04:55.960 splendid first strike in a BOT from the Blue scenario 1869 02:04:57.199 --> 02:05:01.119 or in a UH in a general Wars Mario, you know, 1870 02:05:01.159 --> 02:05:03.000 that would be that would be the way America would 1871 02:05:03.079 --> 02:05:09.640 escalate anyway. So this had all the telltale signs of 1872 02:05:10.239 --> 02:05:15.520 something potentially very very dangerous in the eyes of you know, 1873 02:05:16.640 --> 02:05:24.199 the uh, the Soviet Union, and there are people uh 1874 02:05:24.399 --> 02:05:33.840 interpreting uh, the breaches of their airspace. So the flight 1875 02:05:33.960 --> 02:05:38.079 was intercepted by a Sukhoi fifteen interceptor. UH, it was destroyed, 1876 02:05:38.359 --> 02:05:45.239 all all everybody died. Of course, this was a huge 1877 02:05:45.279 --> 02:05:50.199 international incident. Okay, it was almost comparable to nine to eleven, 1878 02:05:52.159 --> 02:05:54.960 not in terms of the attrition and you know, the 1879 02:05:55.319 --> 02:05:59.800 lives lost, but it was incredibly shocking to people on 1880 02:06:00.079 --> 02:06:04.600 board the aircraft. Was UH, Larry McDonald, the US Congressman 1881 02:06:04.920 --> 02:06:08.399 who also was the chairman of the John Birch Society, 1882 02:06:08.840 --> 02:06:10.319 and UH one. 1883 02:06:10.159 --> 02:06:15.399 Of he was Ron Paul's like mentor in Congress. 1884 02:06:15.039 --> 02:06:18.039 Yeah, and confidant, and he was the last true Southern. 1885 02:06:18.079 --> 02:06:21.199 He was the last true Dixiecrat. McDonald was viewed as 1886 02:06:21.880 --> 02:06:24.439 you know, these like Mother Jones types who he was. 1887 02:06:24.479 --> 02:06:26.960 He was like the man they love to hate and uh, 1888 02:06:27.159 --> 02:06:33.000 these these uh Conservative Caucus types. He was kind of 1889 02:06:33.039 --> 02:06:38.880 like their their their knight in shining armor and you know, knockout, knockdown, 1890 02:06:38.960 --> 02:06:42.399 drag out, you know, congressional battles. But he was he 1891 02:06:42.439 --> 02:06:44.800 was He was a Democrat. He ran as a Democrat 1892 02:06:44.840 --> 02:06:46.479 for the you know, for the entirety of his career, 1893 02:06:46.520 --> 02:06:49.159 and he was really the last true like right wing Democrat. 1894 02:06:49.239 --> 02:06:51.800 But he you know again, not only was he a Bircher, 1895 02:06:51.800 --> 02:06:53.760 but he was you know, chairman of the Birch Society 1896 02:06:54.039 --> 02:06:56.119 and he'd only been nominated for that position a few 1897 02:06:56.119 --> 02:07:02.640 months before he died. He uh, you know again, he 1898 02:07:02.840 --> 02:07:05.680 was one of the founders of the Western Goals Institute, uh, 1899 02:07:06.239 --> 02:07:10.560 which the the British Conservative Monday Club was very much 1900 02:07:10.560 --> 02:07:13.680 affiliated with them, as was the World Anti Communist League. 1901 02:07:14.520 --> 02:07:16.279 You know, people who know the history of these Cold 1902 02:07:16.279 --> 02:07:20.880 War packs of the right, well these will be familiar 1903 02:07:21.520 --> 02:07:28.520 organizational names. But you know, uh, it's a Jesse Helms 1904 02:07:28.520 --> 02:07:30.880 initially was supposed to be on that flight. I mean 1905 02:07:30.880 --> 02:07:33.479 this was a big deal, okay. I mean not just 1906 02:07:33.520 --> 02:07:36.159 because you know, you had these public you had McDonald 1907 02:07:36.199 --> 02:07:38.880 and you had some other person Jess who weren't elected officials. 1908 02:07:38.920 --> 02:07:41.640 But you know, we're very much insinuated in the in 1909 02:07:41.680 --> 02:07:45.199 the BELWI policy corridors. But uh, you know it was there. 1910 02:07:45.279 --> 02:07:47.560 There was something almost kind of like cinematic about it 1911 02:07:47.600 --> 02:07:49.560 in all the worst ways. You know, here's this guy's 1912 02:07:49.560 --> 02:07:52.039 like a lifelong night communist. You know, he's been saying 1913 02:07:52.039 --> 02:07:55.600 his entire professional life, the Soviet Union is dangerous. It 1914 02:07:55.640 --> 02:07:59.680 only understands force the seeing currency. It can you know, 1915 02:08:00.000 --> 02:08:03.119 deploy in order to assert it's it's it's it's vision 1916 02:08:03.159 --> 02:08:08.760 of of ah, you know, of of of of political 1917 02:08:08.840 --> 02:08:11.039 order around of the world, and lo and beholding. How 1918 02:08:11.079 --> 02:08:13.640 does he die? You know, he he dies with you know, 1919 02:08:14.439 --> 02:08:17.640 dozens of other people on this on the civilian airliner. 1920 02:08:17.680 --> 02:08:21.039 That yeah, I think there are two hundred and sixty 1921 02:08:21.119 --> 02:08:23.239 nine people, you know, he dies with like, you know, 1922 02:08:23.359 --> 02:08:26.079 hundreds of other people on this seven forty seven. You know, 1923 02:08:26.119 --> 02:08:29.319 that's un ceremonials blown out of the sky by you know, 1924 02:08:29.479 --> 02:08:35.800 Soviet warbird. It. Uh it really really really upset people, 1925 02:08:35.880 --> 02:08:40.960 and uh, the Soviets, in typical fashion, you know, went 1926 02:08:41.039 --> 02:08:43.920 into kind of you know what, went into kind of 1927 02:08:43.960 --> 02:08:48.279 garrison mode. Uh, I started claiming that first they claim 1928 02:08:48.319 --> 02:08:50.520 that this didn't happen at all, you know. Then they 1929 02:08:50.520 --> 02:08:53.319 claimed that it was a deliberate provocation and the United 1930 02:08:53.359 --> 02:08:56.279 States wanted this to happen, you know, so that you know, 1931 02:08:56.399 --> 02:08:59.000 they could so that they could uh, you know, provoke 1932 02:08:59.039 --> 02:09:02.159 a war. And then that kind of rhetoric itself, I 1933 02:09:02.159 --> 02:09:05.239 mean that that was grossly irresponsible. I mean it, this 1934 02:09:05.359 --> 02:09:11.520 is very very bad the uh in the United States. 1935 02:09:11.560 --> 02:09:14.319 In turn, Reagan's people said that the Soviet Union was 1936 02:09:14.319 --> 02:09:18.479 obstructing search and rescue operations, which they probably were, you know, 1937 02:09:18.760 --> 02:09:23.239 I mean, it got it got very very ugly. And 1938 02:09:23.439 --> 02:09:32.159 uh this was uh, this was a couple months prior. 1939 02:09:34.520 --> 02:09:40.119 There had been a Reagan's uh, evil Evil Empire speech 1940 02:09:42.399 --> 02:09:48.079 March eighth, nineteen eighty three, just almost exactly forty years ago, 1941 02:09:48.239 --> 02:09:52.119 as of a couple of days ago. And I don't 1942 02:09:52.159 --> 02:09:54.239 know if people it's it was not a long speech, 1943 02:09:54.840 --> 02:09:58.039 and it hit really really hard. You can find it 1944 02:09:58.079 --> 02:10:00.279 obviously on YouTube or at least a used to be 1945 02:10:00.279 --> 02:10:01.600 able to do. I don't know if I would assume 1946 02:10:01.600 --> 02:10:06.680 it's still there, but you know, in some there was. 1947 02:10:06.880 --> 02:10:08.880 There was some of the normal, you know, kind of 1948 02:10:08.920 --> 02:10:13.000 State of the Union type policy stuff, but the core 1949 02:10:13.119 --> 02:10:19.199 of it was, you know, Reagan essentially stealing people for 1950 02:10:19.279 --> 02:10:23.800 the possibility of nuclear war. And I I know that, 1951 02:10:24.239 --> 02:10:26.760 you know, for at the time and then for decades subsequent. 1952 02:10:27.079 --> 02:10:31.880 It's been kind of a favorite of people on the left. 1953 02:10:33.359 --> 02:10:36.000 Mind you, I'm not some great Reagan apologist, because I 1954 02:10:36.039 --> 02:10:40.039 think people know, but it's because I got to say 1955 02:10:40.079 --> 02:10:41.920 that this was, in fact a great speech and it 1956 02:10:41.960 --> 02:10:45.640 wasn't corny. You're misplaced. And I mean people people always 1957 02:10:45.800 --> 02:10:47.920 accusing Reagan of being this kind of moron with his 1958 02:10:48.000 --> 02:10:50.039 head in the clouds, who was always invoking stuff like 1959 02:10:50.079 --> 02:10:52.279 Star Wars, like you know, it's why they that's where 1960 02:10:52.279 --> 02:10:54.800 they kind of it was. Ted Kennedy point the actual 1961 02:10:54.840 --> 02:11:00.560 phrase star Wars described Messdi, which itself is moronic, but 1962 02:11:03.359 --> 02:11:06.520 calling the Soviet Union the evil Empire wasn't just a 1963 02:11:06.600 --> 02:11:11.279 corny floating signifier. The actual relevant text is what Reagan said, 1964 02:11:11.640 --> 02:11:15.039 and I quote, let us pray for the salvation of 1965 02:11:15.079 --> 02:11:18.199 all those who live in that totalitarian darkness. Pray they 1966 02:11:18.239 --> 02:11:20.800 will cross over the joy of knowing God. But until 1967 02:11:20.840 --> 02:11:23.199 they do, let us be aware that well they preach 1968 02:11:23.239 --> 02:11:27.159 the supremacy of the state, declare its omnipotence over individual man, 1969 02:11:27.319 --> 02:11:29.960 and predict its eventual domination of all peoples on the earth. 1970 02:11:30.279 --> 02:11:32.760 They're the folks of evil in the modern world. So 1971 02:11:32.800 --> 02:11:35.960 in your discussions of nuclear freeze proposals, I urge you 1972 02:11:36.039 --> 02:11:39.199 to beware the temptation of pride, the temptation of blankly 1973 02:11:39.239 --> 02:11:41.439 declaring itself above it all, and label both sides of 1974 02:11:41.479 --> 02:11:44.119 equally at fault. To ignore the facts of history and 1975 02:11:44.159 --> 02:11:47.079 the aggressive impulses of an evil empire, to simply call 1976 02:11:47.119 --> 02:11:50.640 the arms race a giant misunderstanding, thereby remove yourself from 1977 02:11:50.640 --> 02:11:53.039 the struggle between right and wrong and good and evil. 1978 02:11:54.199 --> 02:11:58.119 That sounds like a worst speech. Okay, I'm not saying 1979 02:11:58.159 --> 02:12:00.159 that was misplaced. I think that was entirely a prop 1980 02:12:00.199 --> 02:12:02.239 for you. Within the boundary rationality of the Cold War, 1981 02:12:03.439 --> 02:12:06.520 a very very strong statement had to be made, and 1982 02:12:06.680 --> 02:12:10.680 drop Off took that to mean that Reagan is planning 1983 02:12:10.680 --> 02:12:16.640 to sue for war, and I it's it's it's understandable 1984 02:12:16.680 --> 02:12:22.319 in context why he would think that. Okay. And plus 1985 02:12:22.319 --> 02:12:24.760 I think this is a damn good speech. Okay, that's 1986 02:12:24.760 --> 02:12:27.119 that's not folk. That's not that kind of cringe soaring 1987 02:12:27.239 --> 02:12:31.239 language that these uh, these kind of these these belwey 1988 02:12:31.319 --> 02:12:34.279 types are are prone to invoke these days. I mean, 1989 02:12:34.319 --> 02:12:36.119 it was it didn't it didn't seem a hoky at 1990 02:12:36.119 --> 02:12:41.880 the time, you know, And and it was a it 1991 02:12:41.920 --> 02:12:46.079 was there. There was genuine there's a genuine strategic paradigm 1992 02:12:46.079 --> 02:12:50.479 shift underway that was profoundly destabilizing. Okay, I mean I 1993 02:12:50.479 --> 02:12:53.960 I I I said, frankly, the Evil Empire speech is 1994 02:12:54.000 --> 02:12:56.680 better than these speech Kennedy ever made. Okay, just an 1995 02:12:56.680 --> 02:12:59.760 objective terms. And again I'm not any kind of I'm 1996 02:12:59.760 --> 02:13:02.760 not kind of Reagan lover or something, but that that 1997 02:13:02.880 --> 02:13:05.520 can't be denied. It's kind of incredible to me. That. 1998 02:13:05.840 --> 02:13:08.439 But the other thing, the biggest like middling speeches by 1999 02:13:08.479 --> 02:13:11.479 like Churchill, we're just kind of drunk and like mumbling about, 2000 02:13:11.600 --> 02:13:14.600 you know, like we will never surrender, you know, or 2001 02:13:14.720 --> 02:13:17.840 like Martin Luther King with this kind of just these 2002 02:13:17.920 --> 02:13:21.319 kind of like nonsense platitudes, you know, people hold this out, 2003 02:13:21.439 --> 02:13:24.479 is like just this kind of an incredible example of 2004 02:13:24.479 --> 02:13:30.279 of of of of modern oratory. It's like, really, man, 2005 02:13:30.399 --> 02:13:35.319 like the Evil Empire speech is kind of is is peak, Okay, 2006 02:13:35.359 --> 02:13:40.159 I mean not just going to the not not not 2007 02:13:40.239 --> 02:13:43.520 just not just going to the you know, for fun 2008 02:13:43.600 --> 02:13:45.760 of the other language, but the context in which was 2009 02:13:45.800 --> 02:13:48.720 delivered at least I think so, Like I said, I'm 2010 02:13:48.720 --> 02:13:52.199 sure people just claim that that's you know, that's some 2011 02:13:53.479 --> 02:13:55.359 you know, love for Reagan for something. 2012 02:13:55.399 --> 02:13:59.760 But again, is it generally accepted that Anthony Dollan wrote it? 2013 02:14:00.880 --> 02:14:04.680 I believe so. I mean that's Reagan was not. Reagan 2014 02:14:04.720 --> 02:14:07.359 could shoot from the hip and speak very well. I mean, 2015 02:14:07.359 --> 02:14:09.880 that's why he was, you know, dubbed the great communicator. 2016 02:14:10.399 --> 02:14:12.680 But Reagan did not write a lot of his own, 2017 02:14:13.800 --> 02:14:21.680 you know, long form speeches. I believe, Uh, I can't. 2018 02:14:22.000 --> 02:14:24.000 Somebody will correct me if I'm wrong. I believe that 2019 02:14:24.079 --> 02:14:28.039 the seventies, the seventy six Republican Convention, that was Reagan's 2020 02:14:28.039 --> 02:14:31.000 other really famous speech. I believe he wrote most of that, 2021 02:14:33.399 --> 02:14:37.359 and that was remarkable because generally Reagan didn't. That's why 2022 02:14:37.359 --> 02:14:40.399 you know, the bit Berg speech. Buchanan wrote that and 2023 02:14:40.439 --> 02:14:42.319 that wasn't just Nancy Reagan. He was in as an 2024 02:14:42.359 --> 02:14:45.119 excuse to throw patter under the bus. But you can't 2025 02:14:45.199 --> 02:14:48.239 actually wrote that speech like it. And that was you know, 2026 02:14:49.439 --> 02:14:52.199 in Reagan's era. It wasn't yet at the point where 2027 02:14:52.520 --> 02:14:54.119 you know, just it was part of the chorus for 2028 02:14:54.359 --> 02:14:58.680 you know, presidents and candidates for the White House, you know, 2029 02:14:59.079 --> 02:15:02.199 just to rely on you know, people to write their 2030 02:15:02.840 --> 02:15:06.199 their copy for them. I mean some people did, some 2031 02:15:06.239 --> 02:15:09.640 people didn't, but yeah, Reagan generally didn't. 2032 02:15:10.479 --> 02:15:15.279 I remember the uh, the Bittburg controversy is like it 2033 02:15:15.319 --> 02:15:15.920 was yesterday. 2034 02:15:17.119 --> 02:15:19.119 Yeah, I mean that's well, we'll get into that on 2035 02:15:19.239 --> 02:15:21.640 the next episode, as as we kind of approached Pera 2036 02:15:21.680 --> 02:15:24.600 Streika and stuff. But that that was entirely appropriate and 2037 02:15:24.640 --> 02:15:26.920 how anyway, I mean, first of all, I I I 2038 02:15:27.239 --> 02:15:31.000 got nothing but esteem for obviously, I mean, those guys 2039 02:15:31.000 --> 02:15:35.000 were heroes. But even if you completely reject that take, 2040 02:15:35.840 --> 02:15:38.479 it was entirely appropriate what Reagan said. He said these 2041 02:15:38.520 --> 02:15:40.840 he said, these men were victims of the war too, 2042 02:15:41.399 --> 02:15:42.960 and I don't I don't see how they could be 2043 02:15:42.960 --> 02:15:47.880 construed as controversial and Helmet Cole essentially insisted that you know, 2044 02:15:48.079 --> 02:15:51.199 the the war that the German War, that'd be acknowledged. 2045 02:15:52.079 --> 02:15:54.520 Like if anything, if if people wanted to throw mud 2046 02:15:54.520 --> 02:15:58.560 on somebody for reported, you know, fascist symbo these like 2047 02:15:58.680 --> 02:16:00.960 Cole would kind of be the guy to hang that on. 2048 02:16:01.039 --> 02:16:03.439 But I think it was among gonna think it was 2049 02:16:03.720 --> 02:16:07.239 an excuse to sort of uh excize you can, from 2050 02:16:07.319 --> 02:16:12.199 the Reagan from Reagan's in her circle. Nancy real was 2051 02:16:12.239 --> 02:16:14.479 in some ways like Priscilla was the Elvis, you know, 2052 02:16:14.520 --> 02:16:16.520 and and the way she just decided that she like 2053 02:16:16.840 --> 02:16:18.800 hated some guy or hated some guy's wife who was 2054 02:16:18.800 --> 02:16:20.640 part of the Memphis mathias. So we had to go 2055 02:16:21.279 --> 02:16:23.640 like Nancy did that too. Like I'm not that there's 2056 02:16:23.640 --> 02:16:25.479 a certain kind of woman who does that. I'm not 2057 02:16:25.479 --> 02:16:28.600 trying to trash females at all, but I mean everybody 2058 02:16:28.640 --> 02:16:32.200 knows that's true. And Nancy Reagan was a very strange bird, 2059 02:16:32.639 --> 02:16:35.159 like she really was in all kinds of ways. I'm 2060 02:16:35.200 --> 02:16:39.680 frankly surprised. It's it's i mean, that's a whole other question. 2061 02:16:39.719 --> 02:16:42.799 It's it's strange that she was. I mean, she was 2062 02:16:42.799 --> 02:16:45.680 Reagan's second wife, you know, once he picked her up, 2063 02:16:45.799 --> 02:16:48.760 well after he had kind of decided he wanted a 2064 02:16:48.799 --> 02:16:51.639 political career of some sort. It's very strange, but that 2065 02:16:51.639 --> 02:16:54.559 that's my read on it. And yeah, obviously, you know, 2066 02:16:54.600 --> 02:16:57.639 like we talked about, it wasn't nearly as extreme because 2067 02:16:58.120 --> 02:17:01.719 Reagan truly did have a pretty remarkable mandate for a 2068 02:17:01.760 --> 02:17:05.639 post uh for a post war president. But there was 2069 02:17:05.920 --> 02:17:08.680 there wasn't there was a kind of Reagan derangement syndrome. 2070 02:17:08.719 --> 02:17:11.959 You remember that, Like, yeah, if it rains on Sunday, 2071 02:17:12.000 --> 02:17:14.639 it's because of Reagan. Like if if your corn flakes 2072 02:17:14.639 --> 02:17:16.799 don't taste good, it's because of Reagan. Like everything that 2073 02:17:16.799 --> 02:17:18.840 happened in the world is like some work by Reagan. 2074 02:17:19.000 --> 02:17:21.399 Like yeah, so that, I mean, that was part of it. 2075 02:17:21.479 --> 02:17:26.200 But but yeah, the regardless, like I said, I mean, 2076 02:17:26.200 --> 02:17:29.600 even even people who you know, were in our cynical 2077 02:17:29.639 --> 02:17:32.680 about the Cold War, even people who don't particularly even 2078 02:17:32.719 --> 02:17:34.159 even people think Rag was just some kind of like 2079 02:17:34.200 --> 02:17:37.920 glorified pitch man. I mean that that that was a 2080 02:17:37.920 --> 02:17:42.200 great speech, and you know, I don't think it was pratuitous, 2081 02:17:42.239 --> 02:17:45.000 but again it did it. It did sound like a 2082 02:17:45.000 --> 02:17:49.639 war speech and and drop off and uh, you know 2083 02:17:49.799 --> 02:17:55.000 ustinof Gromico Trenenko, I mean, all these guys who constituted 2084 02:17:55.040 --> 02:17:56.879 you know, the inner Inner Party. I mean they all, 2085 02:17:56.959 --> 02:17:59.559 they all lived through the war with with the German Reich. 2086 02:17:59.600 --> 02:18:02.639 I mean they to say they were sensitive to these indicators, 2087 02:18:03.559 --> 02:18:06.719 it doesn't even begin to kind of scratch the surface 2088 02:18:06.799 --> 02:18:09.520 of you know, the kind of depth of their fears 2089 02:18:09.639 --> 02:18:15.959 of these things. But it's this is what's important too 2090 02:18:16.040 --> 02:18:21.840 to keep in mind is as to why this this 2091 02:18:22.280 --> 02:18:26.440 you know, nineteen seventy nine to eighty four into eighty 2092 02:18:26.479 --> 02:18:29.799 five was so dangerous, you know, like what happened? You know, 2093 02:18:29.879 --> 02:18:34.680 like what what happened? What happened to Dayton? What killed it? What? 2094 02:18:34.680 --> 02:18:38.120 What constituted Dayton? In brass text terms? In terms of 2095 02:18:38.280 --> 02:18:43.879 policy of uh, you know the East Block and you 2096 02:18:43.920 --> 02:18:47.840 know the West slash NATO And what what kind of 2097 02:18:47.840 --> 02:18:55.000 treaty if not law? Because I mean we we cann't 2098 02:18:55.000 --> 02:18:57.520 really talk about treaties as binding law. It can never 2099 02:18:57.559 --> 02:18:59.920 be anything but permissive. But particularly during the Cold War 2100 02:19:00.079 --> 02:19:02.879 or it was kind of more like a statement of 2101 02:19:03.079 --> 02:19:06.280 good faith than anything. But it did you know, it 2102 02:19:06.319 --> 02:19:12.959 did have it did have moral force. Okay, really what 2103 02:19:13.120 --> 02:19:16.360 kind of constituted Dayton? Where rubber met the road? One 2104 02:19:16.399 --> 02:19:21.639 of its big kind of aims and for a for 2105 02:19:21.680 --> 02:19:23.440 a limited time. We're gonna get into why this was 2106 02:19:23.440 --> 02:19:28.079 problematic as it was constituted. One of its big ambitions 2107 02:19:28.440 --> 02:19:30.600 was to kind of take off the possibility of war 2108 02:19:30.680 --> 02:19:33.920 in Europe, take that off the table. You know, as 2109 02:19:33.959 --> 02:19:38.239 we talked about, there's basically two issues in strategic terms. 2110 02:19:38.719 --> 02:19:41.120 You know, there's obviously America and the Soviet Union could 2111 02:19:41.120 --> 02:19:44.680 come to a real blows in any number of theaters. 2112 02:19:44.760 --> 02:19:48.200 Although the primary diad was Europe, but the Soviet Union 2113 02:19:48.600 --> 02:19:50.319 visa of the Europe I mean that was that was 2114 02:19:50.360 --> 02:19:54.440 an open ended question. I mean, where did Europe stand. 2115 02:19:55.040 --> 02:19:59.079 There's several uh constituent elements in NATO, like where did 2116 02:19:59.079 --> 02:20:01.200 they stand in divisi dually and so far as they 2117 02:20:01.239 --> 02:20:05.559 did have you know, a cognizable, you know, discrete policy 2118 02:20:05.879 --> 02:20:09.440 independent of the NATO structure. You know, what was their 2119 02:20:09.440 --> 02:20:14.520 relationship to the Soviet Union in pure geostrategic terms. I mean, 2120 02:20:14.520 --> 02:20:19.239 this had this this had tremendous significance politically, not just 2121 02:20:19.280 --> 02:20:22.399 for you know, global stability or and the potential for 2122 02:20:22.399 --> 02:20:29.360 a crisis diads, but but also it was understood by everybody. 2123 02:20:29.559 --> 02:20:34.319 I mean, even a conventional war in Europe with you know, 2124 02:20:34.440 --> 02:20:38.239 modern combined arms it would have been utterly devastating, you know. 2125 02:20:38.360 --> 02:20:39.600 I mean that there would have been the end of 2126 02:20:39.600 --> 02:20:42.680 Europe quite literally, you know, it would not have survived, 2127 02:20:43.319 --> 02:20:46.920 you know, or if it did, it would it would 2128 02:20:46.920 --> 02:20:52.159 have been some sort of you know, it would not 2129 02:20:52.200 --> 02:20:53.719 have been It would not have been Europe as we 2130 02:20:53.799 --> 02:21:04.120 know it anymore. Okay. This kind of brought quite literally 2131 02:21:04.159 --> 02:21:10.079 every European state, exempting Albania, which is always you know, 2132 02:21:10.920 --> 02:21:14.000 which which was under the which was under the rule 2133 02:21:14.040 --> 02:21:16.399 of inver hawksa you know, and they had all their 2134 02:21:16.399 --> 02:21:19.600 little bunkers everybody knows, like what the hawks of bunkers. Well, 2135 02:21:19.639 --> 02:21:23.520 like Albania was protesting like any anything relating to UH 2136 02:21:23.680 --> 02:21:28.440 de Tante treaty making because they claimed that they supported 2137 02:21:28.440 --> 02:21:31.079 the people's probably in China because they were the true 2138 02:21:31.159 --> 02:21:36.799 like Marxist Leninist vanguard. But other than that, every every 2139 02:21:36.840 --> 02:21:41.120 member state in NATO and the Warsaw Pact plus UH 2140 02:21:41.239 --> 02:21:49.079 Norway plus you know, plus UH Spain, which I don't 2141 02:21:49.120 --> 02:21:51.280 think was a NATO yet because it was seventy three. 2142 02:21:53.079 --> 02:21:55.879 They UH signed on for what came to be called 2143 02:21:55.879 --> 02:21:59.120 the Conference and Security and Cooperation in Europe, which was 2144 02:21:59.120 --> 02:22:04.319 Canadi in ninety seven to ninety seventy five. It was 2145 02:22:04.360 --> 02:22:07.600 held in Helsinki, Finland, the final phase of it, which 2146 02:22:07.639 --> 02:22:10.760 came to be called the Helsinki Accords or the Helsinki Declaration, 2147 02:22:11.239 --> 02:22:14.600 between July thirtieth and August first, nine seventy five. Now, 2148 02:22:14.600 --> 02:22:17.079 this followed two years and negotiations of this kind of 2149 02:22:17.079 --> 02:22:24.680 tortured process. We're in again, uh, thirty five participating states 2150 02:22:28.600 --> 02:22:36.440 plus the United States and Canada. Did I did I 2151 02:22:36.440 --> 02:22:39.799 disconnect from it? It? No, you're good, Okay, I'm sorry. 2152 02:22:40.040 --> 02:22:44.000 For some reason, the freaking you're by my my video 2153 02:22:44.079 --> 02:22:47.479 kicked out? Okay. The Helsinki Declaration it cons dude, the 2154 02:22:47.479 --> 02:22:51.600 thirty five participating states, you know, all the all the 2155 02:22:51.639 --> 02:22:54.319 members states in NATO and Warsaw Pact, you know, plus 2156 02:22:54.399 --> 02:22:59.959 UH plus Sweden or plus Norway plus Spain, the United 2157 02:23:00.079 --> 02:23:06.360 States plus Canada. What it can with this, with this 2158 02:23:06.440 --> 02:23:10.840 declaration came to constitute was it was supposed to be basically, 2159 02:23:11.799 --> 02:23:15.760 you know, a kind of a kind of quasi bill 2160 02:23:15.799 --> 02:23:19.600 of rights that was understood to be, you know, kind 2161 02:23:19.600 --> 02:23:22.239 of like represent the fundamental rights of man de Girey 2162 02:23:22.639 --> 02:23:24.959 on both sides of the Iron curtain. You know. It 2163 02:23:25.000 --> 02:23:29.559 was a sovereigny quality, respect for the rights inherent and 2164 02:23:29.559 --> 02:23:32.120 sovereignty of all you know, constituent states of Natal and 2165 02:23:32.120 --> 02:23:35.040 Warsaw Pact refraining from the threat of use of force 2166 02:23:35.159 --> 02:23:39.479 to advanced policy initiatives other than defensively, which I realized 2167 02:23:39.479 --> 02:23:42.600 that's kind of meaningless and existential terms, but it has 2168 02:23:42.639 --> 02:23:48.040 political currency in these kinds of situations. You know, a 2169 02:23:48.079 --> 02:23:52.680 recognition of the territorial integrity estates as existed. Then you 2170 02:23:52.680 --> 02:23:54.879 know with the you know, the post war boundaries that 2171 02:23:54.879 --> 02:23:58.719 have been drawn, the peaceful settlement of disputes, not intervention 2172 02:23:59.399 --> 02:24:02.719 and hostile terms, and you know, the affairs of the 2173 02:24:02.760 --> 02:24:06.360 constituent states either NATO or worse up packed and a 2174 02:24:06.440 --> 02:24:10.120 basic and respect for human rights and fundamental freedoms. And 2175 02:24:10.159 --> 02:24:13.200 this was a big one, including freedom of thought, conscience, 2176 02:24:13.399 --> 02:24:21.440 and religion. Okay. Now presidentev made a very big deal 2177 02:24:21.479 --> 02:24:23.840 about this, okay, and this was before he was you 2178 02:24:23.920 --> 02:24:26.840 don't really compromised in terms of his mental faculties. And 2179 02:24:26.879 --> 02:24:31.280 so did Eric Honecker. Okay, because Honaker, especially because he's Jeremy, 2180 02:24:31.280 --> 02:24:34.120 always been struggling for legitimacy. You know, they weren't even 2181 02:24:34.200 --> 02:24:37.280 recognized as as as as a state until the seventies 2182 02:24:37.319 --> 02:24:42.200 by you know, a majority of this planet, but the 2183 02:24:42.280 --> 02:24:45.479 worst up packed or the Iron curtain. Rather the states 2184 02:24:45.479 --> 02:24:47.280 find the Iron curt and the constant with the Soviets 2185 02:24:47.319 --> 02:24:50.760 fear of influence. They were always gonna they were always 2186 02:24:50.760 --> 02:24:55.799 clawing for respectability, which you know, in the Cold War 2187 02:24:55.879 --> 02:25:01.120 context was essential because this really was u a battle 2188 02:25:01.159 --> 02:25:06.079 of zeitgeist and which system and which superpower would become 2189 02:25:06.159 --> 02:25:09.319 the world system. You know, this wasn't just cosmetic or something, 2190 02:25:09.360 --> 02:25:12.280 and it wasn't just you know, it wasn't just these 2191 02:25:12.360 --> 02:25:14.719 kind of career statesmen, you know, wanting a feather in 2192 02:25:14.760 --> 02:25:16.920 their cap, you know, so they could like look at, 2193 02:25:16.959 --> 02:25:19.280 you know, their proverbial trophy case and like Admyer, their 2194 02:25:19.280 --> 02:25:21.559 own you know, great career or whatever. It's had like 2195 02:25:21.639 --> 02:25:26.159 actual impact. That's important to keep in mind, but would 2196 02:25:26.200 --> 02:25:28.799 really kind of opened the door to this. What really 2197 02:25:28.799 --> 02:25:33.920 made this possible, what really made the tame possible, was 2198 02:25:34.879 --> 02:25:41.479 the situation between the two Germanys, and specifically the sendencee 2199 02:25:41.479 --> 02:25:46.319 of Billy Brandt. Who is Billy Brandt. Billy brand was 2200 02:25:46.319 --> 02:25:50.280 this crazy, uh kind of sixty eight or socialist and 2201 02:25:50.319 --> 02:25:52.559 he was middle aged by that epoch you know, he 2202 02:25:52.680 --> 02:25:55.959 was of the war generation, but he'd been the governor. 2203 02:25:56.040 --> 02:25:58.399 He's been the governing mayor of West Berlin, and Berlin 2204 02:25:58.440 --> 02:26:01.239 to this day remains like, you know, an independent polity 2205 02:26:01.399 --> 02:26:05.600 like all the several German states or prefectures are. But 2206 02:26:06.120 --> 02:26:08.920 during the Cold War it had special status or like 2207 02:26:09.040 --> 02:26:10.639 or you know when the inner German boards and tags. 2208 02:26:10.639 --> 02:26:12.799 It had special status, you know, because there was a 2209 02:26:12.920 --> 02:26:18.680 quasi protectorate of of you know, the the of of 2210 02:26:18.680 --> 02:26:23.479 of America, France and the UK. It uh, it was 2211 02:26:23.520 --> 02:26:27.040 situated completely within uh you know, the territory of the 2212 02:26:27.120 --> 02:26:30.159 d d R. So the Marror Westbroo, the governing mayor 2213 02:26:30.159 --> 02:26:35.600 of West Berlin. He had unusual clout. Okay Brand was 2214 02:26:35.600 --> 02:26:37.719 the chairman of the Social Democratic Party from sixty four 2215 02:26:37.719 --> 02:26:43.239 to eighty seven and most significantly and to understand his 2216 02:26:43.399 --> 02:26:46.440 kind of contribution to history as it were accidental or 2217 02:26:46.479 --> 02:26:52.479 not or uh you know, uh literally like accidental or not, 2218 02:26:52.639 --> 02:26:54.440 like you know what he kind of what he kind 2219 02:26:54.440 --> 02:26:57.440 of fumbled into. He was the chance of the Buddhist 2220 02:26:57.440 --> 02:27:01.479 Republic from ninety six ninety seventy five. He was this 2221 02:27:01.559 --> 02:27:04.239 big uh you know, he was this big liberal reformer. 2222 02:27:05.079 --> 02:27:10.600 He he really compromised the bon the buds uh comic capability, 2223 02:27:10.879 --> 02:27:14.799 which was a big deal because the BUN was the 2224 02:27:14.799 --> 02:27:19.079 spear point of NATO in the first decades after the 2225 02:27:19.120 --> 02:27:22.680 Day of Defeat. They really were like a crack military force, 2226 02:27:22.719 --> 02:27:24.760 and they had to be because they're opt Fur was, 2227 02:27:24.920 --> 02:27:28.200 you know, the notional volks Army. This should all be 2228 02:27:28.280 --> 02:27:31.920 very clear. You know. There was a slew of other 2229 02:27:31.959 --> 02:27:36.920 you know, kind of brand Brand's apologists and supporters were 2230 02:27:37.000 --> 02:27:39.360 his point in the fact that you know, the the 2231 02:27:39.440 --> 02:27:41.600 number of Germans made the poverty line, you know, like 2232 02:27:41.639 --> 02:27:43.440 fell from you know, two point nine percent to like, 2233 02:27:43.639 --> 02:27:47.760 you know, something totally marginal. But entrepreneurial activity also dropped 2234 02:27:47.760 --> 02:27:49.159 down to zero, you know, I mean it was a 2235 02:27:49.159 --> 02:27:52.399 typical kind of it was the typical kind of like 2236 02:27:52.719 --> 02:27:56.479 socialist stagnation written large, you know. But but hey, you know, 2237 02:27:56.520 --> 02:27:58.799 the and the cope for for for those that defensive 2238 02:27:58.879 --> 02:28:01.520 things are we got this great education system and now 2239 02:28:01.559 --> 02:28:05.000 nobody's poor anymore, I mean everybody. This is a very 2240 02:28:05.639 --> 02:28:09.399 common uh that this was a common occurrence. You know, 2241 02:28:09.600 --> 02:28:12.600 when when when when social democrats are Greens later on, 2242 02:28:13.319 --> 02:28:16.120 you know, gained majoritary and status and any of these 2243 02:28:16.319 --> 02:28:20.280 you know, any of these West European states. But more importantly, 2244 02:28:20.520 --> 02:28:24.040 Brandt's big thing was ostpolitic. He wanted a true like 2245 02:28:24.120 --> 02:28:28.040 reconciliation with East Germany, Okay, and towards that end, starting 2246 02:28:28.120 --> 02:28:32.000 nineteen sixty seven, herestad was diplomatic relations with Romania, He 2247 02:28:32.120 --> 02:28:35.840 entered into a trade agreement Czechoslovakia. You know, he restored 2248 02:28:35.879 --> 02:28:41.040 formal relations with Yugoslavia. This was set back in August 2249 02:28:41.120 --> 02:28:46.879 sixty eight when you know, with the Fremlins invasion in Czechoslovakia. 2250 02:28:47.760 --> 02:28:52.360 But uh, you know, he condemned brand formally condemned the invasion. 2251 02:28:53.040 --> 02:28:57.520 But uh you know he uh he when he basically 2252 02:28:57.559 --> 02:29:01.440 renegotiated the ruling coalition, you know, the Free Democrats and 2253 02:29:01.559 --> 02:29:05.520 you know who bagged to continued approachment with the worst 2254 02:29:05.600 --> 02:29:07.319 up act and that was that was kind of his 2255 02:29:07.360 --> 02:29:10.200 way of finessing you know, what could have been a 2256 02:29:10.319 --> 02:29:15.159 careruning crisis into a way of staying alive. But uh 2257 02:29:16.920 --> 02:29:19.440 it uh, this reached this kind of zena in sixty 2258 02:29:19.559 --> 02:29:24.520 nine when uh he agreed to meet uh he agreed 2259 02:29:24.559 --> 02:29:29.239 agreed to me with Willie Stuff, who was East German premier, 2260 02:29:29.479 --> 02:29:32.559 who was you know in this kind of byzantine DDR system, 2261 02:29:32.959 --> 02:29:39.239 technically the head of of state contra, you know, the 2262 02:29:39.239 --> 02:29:41.520 the head of government you know, to the who was 2263 02:29:41.559 --> 02:29:44.079 you know, the General Secretary of the se uh D, 2264 02:29:45.159 --> 02:29:47.639 which by then was Honiker, but he he agreed to 2265 02:29:47.680 --> 02:29:51.680 meet with Honiker too, and so he basically in one 2266 02:29:51.719 --> 02:29:56.200 fell stroke, he basically you know, gave the d DR 2267 02:29:56.280 --> 02:30:00.440 the legitimacy that it it had been attempting to apture 2268 02:30:00.639 --> 02:30:09.600 really from inception. And this, uh, understandably, this really really 2269 02:30:10.120 --> 02:30:14.319 outraged you know, not just people who had family behind 2270 02:30:14.319 --> 02:30:19.879 the wall, but also uh, you know, people who had 2271 02:30:20.079 --> 02:30:24.399 real concerns about the fact that the Soviet Union worse 2272 02:30:24.479 --> 02:30:29.799 upack that genuine momentum then in military terms and frankly 2273 02:30:29.840 --> 02:30:32.280 in political terms in the Third World, like we talked about, 2274 02:30:32.319 --> 02:30:35.040 you know, like it appeared that Brandt was was uh 2275 02:30:35.479 --> 02:30:39.200 was selling Europe out UH to the Stalnists in a 2276 02:30:39.280 --> 02:30:43.920 real way, owing either to malice or malice or naivete 2277 02:30:44.000 --> 02:30:48.120 it didn't matter. And this, in my opinion, it was 2278 02:30:48.200 --> 02:30:52.840 kind of the zenith of UH a Warsaw pack power politically, 2279 02:30:53.600 --> 02:30:56.879 because what had always been the way Warsaw Pact wins 2280 02:30:57.000 --> 02:30:59.280 is it demilitarized Germany, you know, I mean this was 2281 02:30:59.280 --> 02:31:01.360 the subject of the aid note as we got into 2282 02:31:01.559 --> 02:31:05.479 many moons ago. This is what the Soviets always wanted, okay, 2283 02:31:05.639 --> 02:31:08.239 and it looked like they were gonna get it, albeit 2284 02:31:08.319 --> 02:31:15.319 in some gradual capacity. But what what brought this down 2285 02:31:15.440 --> 02:31:26.120 is fascinating. Willie Brandt's or Billy Brandt's top aid you know, 2286 02:31:26.239 --> 02:31:30.639 his uh and and the and the and the Social 2287 02:31:30.639 --> 02:31:34.760 Democrat Party like secretary was a guy named Guter Gillom 2288 02:31:35.600 --> 02:31:38.639 okay and uh Gillam was a connected with the hip 2289 02:31:38.719 --> 02:31:41.520 to uh to Billy Brandt. And he was just kind 2290 02:31:41.520 --> 02:31:45.879 of he was just kind of he was this kind 2291 02:31:45.879 --> 02:31:49.639 of shifty looking guy. Frankly, you know, always were dark glasses. 2292 02:31:49.639 --> 02:31:53.360 He was always dressed impeccably, but you know, he truly 2293 02:31:53.440 --> 02:31:56.719 was ubiquitous. Like when Brandt went on vacation, you know, 2294 02:31:56.799 --> 02:31:59.639 Gion like went with Brandt and his family too, Like 2295 02:31:59.639 --> 02:32:04.319 they were close and it was believed that basically Brandt 2296 02:32:04.479 --> 02:32:08.280 was a womanizer, you know, he he liked pussy too much. 2297 02:32:08.680 --> 02:32:12.079 He was at drunk like like Brandy Villy was his 2298 02:32:12.360 --> 02:32:14.959 you know, kind of nickname. You know, friends and foes 2299 02:32:15.000 --> 02:32:19.520 alike called him that he relied on Gillam, you know, 2300 02:32:19.559 --> 02:32:25.479 to kind of like hold it together. Okay, Well, in 2301 02:32:25.600 --> 02:32:30.239 nineteen seventy four and April twenty fourth, Gillom gets arrested. 2302 02:32:30.600 --> 02:32:34.559 Because Gillam was he was a Stasi officer and he 2303 02:32:34.639 --> 02:32:37.520 had been for his whole life. He's quite literally deployed 2304 02:32:38.239 --> 02:32:41.680 to the Bonus Republic to get close to anybody he could, 2305 02:32:42.280 --> 02:32:45.719 and he got close to Billy Brandt and he quite 2306 02:32:45.719 --> 02:32:51.280 literally made Brandt Chancellor. I mean, I think about that, 2307 02:32:51.399 --> 02:32:55.200 like think about what a coup that is. And Guillam 2308 02:32:55.840 --> 02:33:02.639 was able to steal the uh I is only above 2309 02:33:02.719 --> 02:33:06.760 top secret NATO nuclear war plan from the Chancellor's safe 2310 02:33:06.959 --> 02:33:08.840 and he was able to deliver it to East Berlin. 2311 02:33:09.840 --> 02:33:13.360 And UH, from that point forward, it was never clear 2312 02:33:13.559 --> 02:33:16.239 like what the Stasi knew, you know, and like how 2313 02:33:16.280 --> 02:33:19.360 long they had known, you know. And this was this 2314 02:33:19.479 --> 02:33:24.479 Ode DeMarcus Wolf, who was you know, kind of the 2315 02:33:24.639 --> 02:33:27.159 uh it was kind of the genius of the Ministry 2316 02:33:27.200 --> 02:33:34.079 for State Security. He was the he was the he 2317 02:33:34.159 --> 02:33:36.840 was the chief of the Foreign Intelligence Directorate, the main 2318 02:33:36.879 --> 02:33:42.600 director for reconnaissance. And UH, Guillome was his like like 2319 02:33:42.799 --> 02:33:45.440 the mole that became Guillome. This I mean this was 2320 02:33:45.479 --> 02:33:49.360 his this was his operation, you know, from inception to conclusion. 2321 02:33:49.399 --> 02:33:54.879 And uh Wolf made the point that Gillom's arrest and 2322 02:33:54.959 --> 02:34:00.639 exposure this is really kind of what killed uh the 2323 02:34:00.719 --> 02:34:05.520 ambition of a Warsaw Pact and everything they'd accomplished, because 2324 02:34:05.559 --> 02:34:10.159 after that, the Bonis Republic became basically a police state, 2325 02:34:10.680 --> 02:34:14.520 you know, like they a couple of years subsequent the 2326 02:34:14.559 --> 02:34:20.280 bottom Miindhaw faction, you know, the Red Army faction, you know, 2327 02:34:20.399 --> 02:34:23.399 in nineteen seventy seven, Uh, that was the German Autumn 2328 02:34:23.440 --> 02:34:26.799 as it was called. You know, they they kidnapped and 2329 02:34:26.879 --> 02:34:30.399 murdered a number of you know, of of highly of 2330 02:34:30.719 --> 02:34:35.680 highly situated personages, you know, industrialists, consertive politicians, people of 2331 02:34:35.719 --> 02:34:40.719 this nature. You know, the uh it uh this is 2332 02:34:40.760 --> 02:34:44.319 really what facilitated the ascendency of a man like Helmet 2333 02:34:44.360 --> 02:34:47.000 Cole or the chancellorship. And this is one west, this one. 2334 02:34:47.040 --> 02:34:50.079 The Bonis Republic like rejoined the Cold War in earnest, 2335 02:34:50.520 --> 02:34:53.079 you know, and then all bets were off. And it 2336 02:34:53.159 --> 02:34:57.120 also there's something that profoundly sinister about this. I'm not 2337 02:34:57.159 --> 02:34:59.959 saying that in like a charny way, but you know, 2338 02:35:01.760 --> 02:35:05.600 the intelligence game, for whatever reason, the Russian the Soviets 2339 02:35:05.600 --> 02:35:08.200 and other Russians are very very good at it. They 2340 02:35:08.200 --> 02:35:11.120 were always way way better at it than NATO and 2341 02:35:11.200 --> 02:35:14.000 for whatever reason, and this was a testament to that. 2342 02:35:15.959 --> 02:35:20.159 You know, about ten years after the Guillaume affair, Hans Tige, 2343 02:35:20.520 --> 02:35:23.719 you know who was the who's the chief of the 2344 02:35:23.719 --> 02:35:29.520 counterintelligence Directorate of West German intelligence. He just literally defected 2345 02:35:29.520 --> 02:35:33.639 the East Germany. Okay, I mean there's nothing there, weren't 2346 02:35:33.639 --> 02:35:36.879 any people going the other way of that static. I mean, yeah, 2347 02:35:36.920 --> 02:35:40.239 there's people. There's people like you know Suberov, you know, 2348 02:35:40.879 --> 02:35:42.680 not the super Off, but you know, the guy whose 2349 02:35:42.719 --> 02:35:45.959 pen name was Victor Suvaroff. You know, there's mid level 2350 02:35:46.000 --> 02:35:51.840 Soviet officers, there's even a couple of generals, but nothing 2351 02:35:51.920 --> 02:35:57.559 like this, you know, and that's that. There's entire value 2352 02:35:57.639 --> 02:35:59.719 is written on why that was. But the point is 2353 02:35:59.799 --> 02:36:04.559 that this kind of killed anybody's idea, you know, even 2354 02:36:04.639 --> 02:36:06.600 kind of the most starwart you know, kind of soci 2355 02:36:06.719 --> 02:36:10.479 them like East Block apologists, I mean they realize that, 2356 02:36:10.559 --> 02:36:13.639 like the Communists, truly words aiming to subvert the Buddhist Republic, 2357 02:36:15.200 --> 02:36:19.200 render a defense list, you know, penetrated by any means necessary. 2358 02:36:20.719 --> 02:36:26.440 You know and and and thereby you know, remove Europe 2359 02:36:27.319 --> 02:36:33.879 from the American defense umbrella for all time. Okay, I 2360 02:36:33.879 --> 02:36:36.120 don't want to get into an argument about what the 2361 02:36:36.159 --> 02:36:38.479 implications of that are in like world historical terms, like 2362 02:36:38.559 --> 02:36:40.760 people know my opinion, but that that's not important. We're 2363 02:36:40.760 --> 02:36:43.680 talking with the bound of rationality, the Gold War and 2364 02:36:43.680 --> 02:36:46.959 in it's epoch, how people viewed these things because of 2365 02:36:47.200 --> 02:36:50.440 the tant and the hell stinky course and everything else. 2366 02:36:51.360 --> 02:36:53.719 So you look at that situation and then you know, 2367 02:36:53.879 --> 02:36:58.040 like we talked about last episode, uh, the assault in Afghanistan, 2368 02:36:58.680 --> 02:37:02.040 you know, the uh, the emergency deep parodies, you know, 2369 02:37:02.159 --> 02:37:07.840 and and uh and the Soviets attempt to to remedy that, 2370 02:37:08.559 --> 02:37:12.879 you know, by by deploying uh even more UH weapons platforms, 2371 02:37:12.920 --> 02:37:16.959 the massive throwway in the European theater, you know, and 2372 02:37:17.079 --> 02:37:23.239 Reagan regeway returning the serve was the deployment of intermediate 2373 02:37:24.000 --> 02:37:30.440 range UH nuclear weapons to uh, you know, to to 2374 02:37:30.440 --> 02:37:34.399 the Buddhist Republic, to Italy, to the Netherlands and another 2375 02:37:34.520 --> 02:37:42.479 key theaters. And that's uh, that's basically how I mean. 2376 02:37:42.479 --> 02:37:45.079 You can see kind of like a perfect storm of 2377 02:37:45.120 --> 02:37:53.440 causality leading to the leading to the status of tensions, 2378 02:37:53.479 --> 02:37:57.360 you know, by nineteen eighty three. I don't think that 2379 02:37:57.440 --> 02:38:06.680 there's I don't think that there's a comparable set a 2380 02:38:06.760 --> 02:38:10.959 crisis cycle in the Cold War. I mean there was, 2381 02:38:11.000 --> 02:38:13.040 like I said, there was nineteen seventy three, you know, 2382 02:38:13.079 --> 02:38:20.360 where the Soviets actually they deployed nuclear weapons, you know, 2383 02:38:20.440 --> 02:38:24.399 to the Middle Eastern theater in anticipation of a general 2384 02:38:24.440 --> 02:38:30.920 assault in support of their Egyptian ally. Nineteen sixty two. Obviously, 2385 02:38:31.440 --> 02:38:33.920 you know, there were the world, the United States and 2386 02:38:33.920 --> 02:38:37.440 the Soviet were very close to nuclear war. But that 2387 02:38:37.559 --> 02:38:41.600 was well before that was well before nuclear parody had 2388 02:38:41.600 --> 02:38:44.680 been achieved. So it yeah, okay, I mean I realized 2389 02:38:44.680 --> 02:38:47.120 it sounds like I'm being flippant, but if America took 2390 02:38:47.120 --> 02:38:49.799 twenty million dead, it still would have won. I mean, 2391 02:38:49.799 --> 02:38:52.280 there would have been no more Soviet Union. You know, 2392 02:38:53.000 --> 02:38:56.760 that's got different implications, you know, And it's not it's 2393 02:38:56.799 --> 02:38:58.799 not so much that you know nineteen eighty two to 2394 02:38:58.799 --> 02:39:01.879 eighty four, it's it's not so much that you know, 2395 02:39:01.920 --> 02:39:07.319 it was this punctuated moment like seventy three, when uh 2396 02:39:07.479 --> 02:39:11.159 America reached Defcon three, or like sixty two, when the 2397 02:39:11.280 --> 02:39:14.760 question was, you know, are the stories just gonna you know, 2398 02:39:15.319 --> 02:39:18.360 just gonna run the blockade. It was just kind of ongoing. 2399 02:39:19.200 --> 02:39:20.559 It was it was just kind of it was just 2400 02:39:20.639 --> 02:39:24.719 kind of like never ending state of elevated tension when 2401 02:39:24.719 --> 02:39:29.879 it seemed that at any moment, you know, uh, a 2402 02:39:29.959 --> 02:39:34.440 general crisis could deteriorate, it could deteriorate into nuclear war 2403 02:39:34.520 --> 02:39:37.280 before anybody even knew it was happening, owing a large 2404 02:39:37.319 --> 02:39:41.440 part two to the state of you know, weapons development 2405 02:39:41.479 --> 02:39:45.639 then and commanding control technology, which is essentially neutralized generally warning. 2406 02:39:47.600 --> 02:39:52.200 That's uh, what's important to consider, I believe, because I 2407 02:39:52.319 --> 02:39:54.079 do get asked by people like, well, why was this 2408 02:39:54.159 --> 02:39:56.760 so dangerous? There wasn't some you know, moment like in 2409 02:39:56.799 --> 02:39:59.479 the human missile crisis, So there wasn't some ultimatum issued, 2410 02:40:00.120 --> 02:40:02.559 you know, like when the Soviets declared that you know, 2411 02:40:02.559 --> 02:40:07.319 if the Israelis annihilated you know, the Egyptian army and 2412 02:40:07.360 --> 02:40:10.280 then and then Martina and Cairo that you know, the 2413 02:40:10.280 --> 02:40:12.920 Soviets would intervene and then if if met you know, 2414 02:40:13.680 --> 02:40:17.079 biconoparable American forces that you know, they resort to nuclear 2415 02:40:17.120 --> 02:40:20.559 weapons in order to prevent their own people from you know, 2416 02:40:20.600 --> 02:40:27.000 being surrounded and destroyed similarly. But that's that's kind of 2417 02:40:27.000 --> 02:40:28.680 what I got for today, because I don't want to 2418 02:40:29.159 --> 02:40:34.440 the the GORTROSSI sendency and kind of what ended this 2419 02:40:35.479 --> 02:40:40.639 strategic paradigm is significant. And the roll of Attias rust 2420 02:40:40.840 --> 02:40:44.440 the roosts, you know, the uh the kid who flew 2421 02:40:44.479 --> 02:40:48.120 his uh who flew his prop plane into Red Square. 2422 02:40:48.600 --> 02:40:53.040 That's a fascinating story and it's got huge significance for 2423 02:40:53.760 --> 02:40:58.200 you know, the kind of internal in like for for 2424 02:40:58.319 --> 02:41:02.879 Kremlin intrigues that you know led to a led to 2425 02:41:02.959 --> 02:41:06.120 a real policy shift. Why with the fact that it 2426 02:41:06.200 --> 02:41:10.680 costs many many Stalness hardliners and key rolls their jobs. 2427 02:41:10.719 --> 02:41:13.719 But I that I think we should say that for 2428 02:41:13.799 --> 02:41:16.239 next episode because again I want to deal with, you know, 2429 02:41:16.879 --> 02:41:19.600 the end of the drop of chert Ancle era in 2430 02:41:19.639 --> 02:41:22.680 the ascendency of gorbachhow next episode. So I think that's 2431 02:41:22.680 --> 02:41:23.000 all like. 2432 02:41:22.920 --> 02:41:27.600 A well, let me ask you this, the shooting down 2433 02:41:27.680 --> 02:41:32.239 of zero zero seven. There had to have been close 2434 02:41:32.360 --> 02:41:35.600 calls before, There had to have been planes that flew 2435 02:41:35.639 --> 02:41:38.719 into airspace. Why was it that one? Yeah, not to 2436 02:41:38.879 --> 02:41:41.120 you know, not to put on a tinfoil hat and everything, 2437 02:41:41.159 --> 02:41:43.440 but it you know, and like you said, there was 2438 02:41:43.520 --> 02:41:47.440 always that flight would always have someone on it of significance. 2439 02:41:48.000 --> 02:41:49.399 But why do you think it was just at that 2440 02:41:49.520 --> 02:41:51.600 time it was just that was the perfect storm time. 2441 02:41:53.000 --> 02:41:56.079 That was the perfect storm time. It's not clear why, 2442 02:41:56.319 --> 02:42:00.479 because you know, even in those days there was you 2443 02:42:00.520 --> 02:42:06.479 could recover audio from from from rex like the black Box. 2444 02:42:06.520 --> 02:42:11.079 I guess the Soviets tried to hail this plane and 2445 02:42:11.120 --> 02:42:13.440 like I said, at seven forty seven, Apparently I'm not 2446 02:42:13.479 --> 02:42:15.399 like an aviation guy like I like war birds. I 2447 02:42:15.399 --> 02:42:17.799 think they're cool, but I don't know anything about like 2448 02:42:17.879 --> 02:42:22.879 the you know, particulars of it. Apparently a seven forty seven, 2449 02:42:23.280 --> 02:42:25.959 like I said, looks basically just like an a wax 2450 02:42:26.399 --> 02:42:29.000 of the era, like even at visual arrange. So the 2451 02:42:29.040 --> 02:42:33.840 Soviets are like, you know, why why we're not just 2452 02:42:33.840 --> 02:42:36.719 being spoofed. This is you know, this isn't this isn't 2453 02:42:36.760 --> 02:42:40.520 early They're trying, they're trying to detect their early warning 2454 02:42:40.520 --> 02:42:44.760 and how much it's lit up. They tried to hail 2455 02:42:45.239 --> 02:42:48.840 the pilot on you know, whatever the you know, international 2456 02:42:48.879 --> 02:42:55.319 emergency frequency is, and it was dead silence. This Sukoy 2457 02:42:55.600 --> 02:42:59.639 got on his tail and made clear that like it 2458 02:42:59.719 --> 02:43:04.639 was you know, at attack range you know, and it 2459 02:43:04.719 --> 02:43:09.319 still didn't deviate from its course. You know, the pilot 2460 02:43:09.360 --> 02:43:13.440 who took it down obviously, you know, he was forced 2461 02:43:13.440 --> 02:43:16.520 to lie by the cremlin and stuff. You know, sometime 2462 02:43:16.559 --> 02:43:20.760 in the two thousands, you know, he he he testified 2463 02:43:21.959 --> 02:43:26.000 to this British filmmaker about everything that happened, and uh, 2464 02:43:26.479 --> 02:43:28.120 he's like, yeah, you know, he's like, when I got 2465 02:43:28.120 --> 02:43:30.639 the order to the fire, I didn't hesitate, and he's like, 2466 02:43:30.680 --> 02:43:32.479 I didn't think it was. He's like, I didn't think 2467 02:43:32.479 --> 02:43:34.040 we were gonna He's like, I didn't think it was, 2468 02:43:34.120 --> 02:43:36.639 you know, a precursor to an attack. But he's like, 2469 02:43:36.719 --> 02:43:39.760 I it didn't make sense what it was doing. You know, 2470 02:43:40.520 --> 02:43:45.760 He's like, I thought something wasn't right here. What some 2471 02:43:45.799 --> 02:43:48.319 of these FAA types, some of these like investigator types 2472 02:43:48.360 --> 02:43:51.479 and guys you know aviation claim or like what they think. 2473 02:43:53.280 --> 02:43:55.680 I mean, we take for granted that it's a hell 2474 02:43:55.719 --> 02:43:58.200 of a lot easier I mean, in in aviation and 2475 02:43:58.200 --> 02:44:02.559 anywhere else these days to identify your your true position. 2476 02:44:03.639 --> 02:44:11.280 In those days, it wasn't. The consensus is that these 2477 02:44:11.360 --> 02:44:15.120 Korean pilots were wildly off course. They had no idea 2478 02:44:15.159 --> 02:44:19.040 they were in the Soviet airspace at all. So like 2479 02:44:19.040 --> 02:44:22.000 when a sue who got on their tail ivan does 2480 02:44:22.120 --> 02:44:24.719 their their idea with their nose. Probably ivan does crazy 2481 02:44:24.799 --> 02:44:29.520 things all the time, you know. Uh, they wouldn't even 2482 02:44:29.520 --> 02:44:31.799 occur to them, like we're gonna get blown out of 2483 02:44:31.799 --> 02:44:36.239 the sky. Plus yeah, the fact it was a perfect 2484 02:44:36.280 --> 02:44:41.159 storm of of of concrete tensions, you know, going to 2485 02:44:41.200 --> 02:44:45.239 the global situation. But it's weird, and it's weird that 2486 02:44:45.319 --> 02:44:47.440 McDonald was just having to be on that plane, you know. 2487 02:44:47.479 --> 02:44:49.319 And it's like and then too like a lot of 2488 02:44:49.319 --> 02:44:51.760 Burcher types and stuff and not and and other just 2489 02:44:51.799 --> 02:44:54.680 like right wing guys not even like Bircher cranks were 2490 02:44:54.719 --> 02:44:57.200 like obviously the Soviets are just doing this because they can, 2491 02:44:57.520 --> 02:44:59.920 and they hated McDonald anyway, so they just killed it. 2492 02:45:00.239 --> 02:45:02.239 And I mean, honestly, I can see why people want 2493 02:45:02.239 --> 02:45:05.879 have thought that because it's weird, you know, and I 2494 02:45:05.879 --> 02:45:09.200 mean the Cold War was weird, you know, and it's uh, 2495 02:45:09.520 --> 02:45:13.360 and plus the they the Soviets did grindy ship. I 2496 02:45:13.360 --> 02:45:15.600 mean they you know, in the same epoch, you know, 2497 02:45:15.680 --> 02:45:19.040 they it's clear now like they they retained some freaking 2498 02:45:19.920 --> 02:45:21.959 you know, this this Turk to try and murder the Pope, 2499 02:45:22.559 --> 02:45:26.319 like you know they uh, the uh, these Popular Front 2500 02:45:26.360 --> 02:45:29.159 for the Liberation of Palestine guys were going berserk. You know. 2501 02:45:29.239 --> 02:45:30.959 They were the guys who blew up the Disco tech 2502 02:45:31.000 --> 02:45:33.159 in West Berlin. Like those were those guys were like 2503 02:45:33.200 --> 02:45:36.000 in the in the influence of the Stazi and Operation 2504 02:45:36.079 --> 02:45:39.360 Control of KGB was over the Stazi. It's like they 2505 02:45:39.399 --> 02:45:41.680 you know, obviously it's a different thing that you know, 2506 02:45:41.760 --> 02:45:44.760 to blow a civilian airline around the sky with with 2507 02:45:44.840 --> 02:45:47.079 a war bird. But it, you know, the Soviet Union 2508 02:45:47.159 --> 02:45:52.600 was behaving. It was behaving very much like a lawless actor, 2509 02:45:53.559 --> 02:45:53.760 you know. 2510 02:45:54.319 --> 02:45:56.319 But I mean, but that wasn't top down right, I 2511 02:45:56.399 --> 02:45:58.639 mean with the premiere of that they were gonna do. 2512 02:45:58.760 --> 02:46:02.680 Yeah, I mean, this is just what happened, was what 2513 02:46:02.719 --> 02:46:05.280 I said. It was was yeah, but I understand. My 2514 02:46:05.319 --> 02:46:07.200 point was I could see why people who weren't crazy 2515 02:46:07.239 --> 02:46:09.399 you could think that, you know, this was this was 2516 02:46:09.440 --> 02:46:12.959 just the Soviets being brutes. I mean that. But yeah, 2517 02:46:13.000 --> 02:46:15.280 I mean it was it was there. There wasn't there's 2518 02:46:15.319 --> 02:46:18.360 not like a deeper there's not deeper lore there. But yeah, 2519 02:46:18.440 --> 02:46:20.760 McDonald was a and I mean it's sad McDonald died. 2520 02:46:20.799 --> 02:46:21.920 I mean I don't. I'm not a fan of the 2521 02:46:21.920 --> 02:46:24.959 Birth Society, but there's some good guys in there. Like 2522 02:46:25.000 --> 02:46:27.399 that is now when McDonald was probably he was not 2523 02:46:27.440 --> 02:46:29.280 the last Congress when it was actually worse shit, he 2524 02:46:29.319 --> 02:46:32.479 was a good dude, you know, I mean it, I 2525 02:46:32.840 --> 02:46:35.239 missed the days when there was like democrats who weren't 2526 02:46:35.319 --> 02:46:38.639 just like not like shit bags and perverts, but they 2527 02:46:38.680 --> 02:46:46.239 actually were like dude who represented their constituents. And McDonald's 2528 02:46:46.239 --> 02:46:47.959 a guy who did that. And arguably, I mean he 2529 02:46:48.040 --> 02:46:49.600 died for him. He wouldn't have been on that stupid 2530 02:46:49.600 --> 02:46:51.719 plane going to South Korea, like if he you know, 2531 02:46:52.760 --> 02:46:55.879 wasn't acting in his official capacity. I mean that, you know, 2532 02:46:55.959 --> 02:46:58.799 in the Cold War, I mean politicians now they're like 2533 02:46:58.959 --> 02:47:01.200 they're like total devans and losers because like, no man 2534 02:47:01.200 --> 02:47:02.920 who's got anything going on in his life like goes 2535 02:47:02.959 --> 02:47:05.079 into politics. But the Cold War was different. You know, 2536 02:47:05.840 --> 02:47:08.040 you had you had like real guys, and you had 2537 02:47:08.040 --> 02:47:12.239 people who had something to offer, who went into who 2538 02:47:12.319 --> 02:47:14.920 went into public life, you know, like McDonald. You know, 2539 02:47:15.000 --> 02:47:18.239 I mean it's and it's it's a tragedy, you know. 2540 02:47:18.280 --> 02:47:21.120 And as we're you know, the right, those other two 2541 02:47:21.159 --> 02:47:22.600 Hudred and six and nine people on board. You know 2542 02:47:22.600 --> 02:47:24.920 when there was like I said it was it was 2543 02:47:24.959 --> 02:47:27.520 multi official types and business people, but you know there 2544 02:47:27.600 --> 02:47:29.559 was still there was a couple of dozen women and kids. 2545 02:47:29.639 --> 02:47:34.840 I mean the thing was fucking awful. But uh yeah, yeah. 2546 02:47:34.360 --> 02:47:37.920 Well plugs and we're out here. 2547 02:47:38.600 --> 02:47:41.399 Yeah like again too, like let me terrorized by bourbapps, 2548 02:47:41.440 --> 02:47:45.680 so like, please don't pay it any mind. I I 2549 02:47:45.680 --> 02:47:47.520 guess not. In a week, I'll be back on there, 2550 02:47:47.559 --> 02:47:50.479 but I'm trying to phase it out as we kind 2551 02:47:50.520 --> 02:47:53.760 of transition to the channel. But I mean in the intrum. 2552 02:47:53.959 --> 02:47:56.440 I mean, you can find me on t ram. Uh, 2553 02:47:56.559 --> 02:47:59.760 you'll find me on sub stack real Thomas seven seven seven, 2554 02:47:59.760 --> 02:48:04.399 that's upstack dot com. My YouTube channel is Thomas TV. 2555 02:48:05.520 --> 02:48:09.319 The the trailer uh or the promo is up for 2556 02:48:09.399 --> 02:48:13.040 the channel. The intro. Rather, I'm in the process of 2557 02:48:13.040 --> 02:48:16.879 recording the first episode, as I hope people gleaned from 2558 02:48:17.000 --> 02:48:21.479 the intro that my dear friend and bro Rake created 2559 02:48:21.479 --> 02:48:24.399 for us. I I want this to be very high quality. 2560 02:48:24.639 --> 02:48:27.680 I'm not just like throwing shit out there, you know, 2561 02:48:28.239 --> 02:48:32.520 so it takes time to produce it. I I'm I'm 2562 02:48:32.559 --> 02:48:36.600 I'm piecemeal getting the equipment I need uh to do 2563 02:48:36.719 --> 02:48:40.319 this in a more exponitious capacity. But like, please bear 2564 02:48:40.360 --> 02:48:43.559 with me. I promised by April first we will have 2565 02:48:43.680 --> 02:48:47.440 like actual episodes. But that's that's my that's my jive 2566 02:48:47.520 --> 02:48:48.319 as of today. 2567 02:48:48.959 --> 02:48:50.840 All right, man, I appreciate it. Till the next time. 2568 02:48:51.239 --> 02:48:52.159 Yeah, thank you, Pete. 2569 02:48:53.360 --> 02:48:57.360 I want to welcome everyone back to the Pecana Show. Thomas, 2570 02:48:57.399 --> 02:48:58.079 how are you doing? 2571 02:48:58.600 --> 02:49:01.760 I'm all right? Thanks for hosting me. Yeah. Man, So. 2572 02:49:03.280 --> 02:49:09.120 Last time we talked talked about Yaki and talked about Spangler, 2573 02:49:09.600 --> 02:49:11.760 and it's time to get back to the Cold War 2574 02:49:11.920 --> 02:49:13.239 series episode fourteen. 2575 02:49:13.360 --> 02:49:14.360 What he got for us today? 2576 02:49:14.840 --> 02:49:17.600 Yeah, we left off with the able Archer and the 2577 02:49:17.600 --> 02:49:19.280 and drop b Era. I mean to me, the and 2578 02:49:19.399 --> 02:49:24.360 Droppa of Era was properly from you know, about nineteen 2579 02:49:24.360 --> 02:49:26.840 sixty four until he died. I mean, I you know, 2580 02:49:26.879 --> 02:49:28.399 like I said, I think he was. He was like 2581 02:49:28.440 --> 02:49:32.639 the kind of eminence behind the facade of Soviet power 2582 02:49:32.760 --> 02:49:35.280 that you know, when Breshnav was at the Helm. That's 2583 02:49:35.280 --> 02:49:37.600 not to say Bresnev was was some kind of cipher. 2584 02:49:38.040 --> 02:49:42.200 I when Bresnev became elderly, he was no longer you know, 2585 02:49:42.280 --> 02:49:45.719 I mean, he was no longer mentally commonent the last 2586 02:49:45.920 --> 02:49:49.639 few years of his life. But Bresna was a serious personage, 2587 02:49:51.520 --> 02:49:53.360 you know. I mean, there's a reason why he replaced 2588 02:49:53.440 --> 02:49:55.319 Khrush chief, you know, like he was writing the ship. 2589 02:49:55.559 --> 02:49:58.399 He was writing the ship after the you know, the 2590 02:49:58.520 --> 02:50:01.959 kind of disaster that was crui if in power political terms, 2591 02:50:02.360 --> 02:50:04.399 you know, in Brezhnev was in a lot of ways 2592 02:50:04.399 --> 02:50:06.440 he was kind of a true Stalinist, you know, I mean, 2593 02:50:06.879 --> 02:50:12.520 but the true I mean a state. It's at the 2594 02:50:12.559 --> 02:50:17.639 scale of the Soviet Union, you know, even even accounting 2595 02:50:17.680 --> 02:50:21.719 with the fact that you know, the Russian the Russian 2596 02:50:21.920 --> 02:50:24.799 Russian political areas, sense of constrate power in one man, 2597 02:50:24.879 --> 02:50:26.520 even in times of peace, like in a way that 2598 02:50:27.760 --> 02:50:31.120 seems peculiar in the West. I mean, I'm not even 2599 02:50:31.159 --> 02:50:33.600 saying that punitively. I mean, it's just like an objective 2600 02:50:34.760 --> 02:50:38.920 account of things. But you know, the Soviet Union at 2601 02:50:38.920 --> 02:50:42.799 its zenith, it just was not that the scale and complexity. 2602 02:50:42.879 --> 02:50:46.680 I mean when I parttically would consider you know, the 2603 02:50:46.680 --> 02:50:50.200 the way that Marcius lantin the states were organized, where 2604 02:50:50.200 --> 02:50:53.600 there you know, we're central planning, you know, truly was 2605 02:50:53.639 --> 02:50:55.719 the order of the day, you know, not I mean 2606 02:50:55.719 --> 02:50:59.399 that that's what policy was. That's that's that that's what 2607 02:50:59.440 --> 02:51:01.280 the production is scheme it was. It wasn't you know, 2608 02:51:02.200 --> 02:51:04.719 It's something that they aimed to realize. I mean that 2609 02:51:04.719 --> 02:51:08.399 that's how they They truly had, you know, an economy 2610 02:51:08.440 --> 02:51:11.680 that you know, had abolished the price mechanism and was 2611 02:51:12.559 --> 02:51:17.159 managed by you know, thousands upon thousands upon millions of inputs. 2612 02:51:18.000 --> 02:51:20.520 So I mean, no, what I'm getting at is that no, 2613 02:51:20.520 --> 02:51:25.079 no matter how much of a brilliant uh, you know, 2614 02:51:25.920 --> 02:51:28.319 personage bresident of would have might might might not have 2615 02:51:28.360 --> 02:51:30.360 been like no, no single man could have managed that. 2616 02:51:30.479 --> 02:51:33.680 So I mean the point that kind of the the 2617 02:51:33.760 --> 02:51:38.600 trifecta of Soviet power was really a drop of u 2618 02:51:39.360 --> 02:51:44.120 gram Eco and Ustinov, dmitriy Houston off the field, Marshal 2619 02:51:46.719 --> 02:51:50.040 and uh, you know, particularly on Mayor's a warrant peace 2620 02:51:50.799 --> 02:51:53.319 and drop off was kind of the final authority. And 2621 02:51:53.680 --> 02:51:55.680 you know, the decision to go to war in Afghanistan 2622 02:51:55.799 --> 02:51:57.760 is very much and drop off decision. And I think 2623 02:51:57.760 --> 02:52:06.879 we got into that and the uh, the decline of 2624 02:52:07.040 --> 02:52:13.239 that trifecta, I mean, most frankly, I mean, I drop 2625 02:52:13.280 --> 02:52:16.719 Off died and then Usanov died shortly after. I mean, 2626 02:52:16.760 --> 02:52:21.319 that's that's really what allowed Glassnos and pera strika like 2627 02:52:21.440 --> 02:52:26.239 as policy to become develop and evolved the way it did. However, 2628 02:52:26.559 --> 02:52:30.360 you know, Gerbachev was in drop offs protege, and that's 2629 02:52:30.399 --> 02:52:33.399 the reason why he truly was in drop off successor. 2630 02:52:33.440 --> 02:52:35.360 You know, this idea that Grbachev's like this kind of 2631 02:52:35.399 --> 02:52:37.399 crazy liberal or that he was like this kind of 2632 02:52:37.479 --> 02:52:41.559 yeltsin like buffoon who was just kind of like drunk 2633 02:52:42.000 --> 02:52:45.799 on the prospect of uh, you know, of of of 2634 02:52:45.920 --> 02:52:48.479 kind of like slash and burn capitalism. That's not true 2635 02:52:48.520 --> 02:52:52.559 at all. We'll get into the next episode, which will 2636 02:52:52.559 --> 02:52:53.920 probably be kind of like close to the end of 2637 02:52:53.920 --> 02:52:58.840 our series. That's like why you know, why why the 2638 02:52:58.840 --> 02:53:00.639 Soviet Union went down in flame the way it did. 2639 02:53:00.639 --> 02:53:03.239 But it wasn't because Gorbachev wanted to just like burn 2640 02:53:03.239 --> 02:53:07.719 the structure down or like pull the plug. But when 2641 02:53:07.760 --> 02:53:11.120 it drop off died his immediate his immediate successor was 2642 02:53:11.639 --> 02:53:14.559 Constantine Schernenko, you know, who was kind of like a 2643 02:53:14.719 --> 02:53:18.040 doddering fool in the eyes of the world, and I mean, 2644 02:53:18.079 --> 02:53:20.920 by that point he was totally senile. But the reason 2645 02:53:20.959 --> 02:53:25.440 why that this kind of placeholder was insinuated into the 2646 02:53:25.879 --> 02:53:29.239 General Secretariat was because there was a real battle within 2647 02:53:29.280 --> 02:53:31.719 the Kremlin as to which way the Soviet Union was 2648 02:53:31.760 --> 02:53:34.799 going to go. Not even it wasn't nobody foresaw in 2649 02:53:34.840 --> 02:53:37.399 the early eighties that you know, the East Blocks is 2650 02:53:37.479 --> 02:53:41.239 going to come apart, like nobody, you know, like we 2651 02:53:41.360 --> 02:53:43.600 talked about before. There's people like Kennan and people like 2652 02:53:43.680 --> 02:53:49.879 Yaki himself, you know, who didn't the Soviet Union as 2653 02:53:49.920 --> 02:53:52.360 it existed, you know, in the nineteen fifties and during 2654 02:53:52.399 --> 02:53:54.360 into the twenty first century. But even they did to 2655 02:53:54.360 --> 02:53:57.559 see the whole system just like dissolving, you know, like 2656 02:53:57.600 --> 02:54:01.600 the way it did. So people were suspicious of garbageow Off. 2657 02:54:01.600 --> 02:54:03.639 It wasn't because they thought, like, you know, he's gonna 2658 02:54:04.000 --> 02:54:06.319 he's gonna sell the party down the river or something. 2659 02:54:06.360 --> 02:54:09.000 It was because you know, you had you had these 2660 02:54:09.040 --> 02:54:11.959 discreete personages who you know, to whom kind of like 2661 02:54:12.000 --> 02:54:16.799 the up and coming uh commissars like had had like 2662 02:54:16.840 --> 02:54:20.840 individual loyalty to you know, and garbage Off despite the 2663 02:54:20.879 --> 02:54:22.959 fact that he'd been in drop offs guy, I mean 2664 02:54:23.000 --> 02:54:26.040 it uh that that carried a lot of cloud, but 2665 02:54:26.920 --> 02:54:30.879 it wasn't. It wasn't enough, you know, to just to 2666 02:54:31.000 --> 02:54:33.200 just hand hand him the reins and like an absolute 2667 02:54:33.200 --> 02:54:38.000 capacity without you know, any kind of without any without 2668 02:54:38.079 --> 02:54:41.040 without anything being finessed beforehand, and like you know, promises 2669 02:54:41.079 --> 02:54:44.040 being made and you know and kind of certain uh 2670 02:54:44.600 --> 02:54:48.479 ceremonies being stood upon as a word. But Tarnanko was 2671 02:54:48.520 --> 02:54:50.719 not and his youth, he actually the guy was kind 2672 02:54:50.719 --> 02:54:53.159 of like at pure commissar. I mean, obviously he's sert. 2673 02:54:53.200 --> 02:54:54.559 You know, he's started in the Red Army, you know, 2674 02:54:54.680 --> 02:54:57.680 during the you know, the Russian Soviets and the Russians 2675 02:54:57.719 --> 02:55:00.959 today called the Great Patriotic War. He spent his entire 2676 02:55:01.000 --> 02:55:05.120 career at propaganda and and and and as an ideological cadre. 2677 02:55:05.319 --> 02:55:06.440 You know. Like I said, the guy was like a 2678 02:55:06.440 --> 02:55:09.120 pure commissar. You know, it's just like what he did, 2679 02:55:09.319 --> 02:55:12.559 you know. And he he was very much an intermediary 2680 02:55:12.879 --> 02:55:15.280 like uh with the Defense establishment, even though he didn't 2681 02:55:15.319 --> 02:55:17.959 like spend a career in uniform like uh. And they 2682 02:55:18.000 --> 02:55:20.120 trusted him and they liked him. You know. So this 2683 02:55:20.239 --> 02:55:22.319 guy you can see with the Soviet Union, the fact 2684 02:55:22.360 --> 02:55:25.840 that they took you know, every William Odam who will 2685 02:55:26.040 --> 02:55:28.120 we'll talk about a little bit later in this episode. Uh, 2686 02:55:28.200 --> 02:55:31.200 you know, an American general and and probably the preeminent 2687 02:55:31.280 --> 02:55:35.639 authority on a nuclear warfare. And I say, I'd say 2688 02:55:35.639 --> 02:55:40.639 Thomas Schelling on the civilian side would be entitled to 2689 02:55:41.000 --> 02:55:44.440 the moniker. But as far as the general officer goes, 2690 02:55:44.719 --> 02:55:47.280 it was Odam and William Odum he was he was 2691 02:55:47.360 --> 02:55:51.200 kind of the one, you know, Uh, he was kind 2692 02:55:51.200 --> 02:55:56.000 of the one, like you know, common experience general officer 2693 02:55:57.239 --> 02:55:58.959 who was saying in the wake of Able Archer that 2694 02:55:59.040 --> 02:56:01.159 like Loo, the Soviet Union is serious, Like they're not, 2695 02:56:01.799 --> 02:56:03.440 They're they're not, they're not pretending to be on high 2696 02:56:03.440 --> 02:56:05.479 alert like they they actually are, you know, and they 2697 02:56:05.520 --> 02:56:07.360 actually are in a war footing. And like the more 2698 02:56:07.399 --> 02:56:11.040 you the more you you spoof them, you know, the 2699 02:56:11.079 --> 02:56:14.200 more paranoid you make them, and the more likely it 2700 02:56:14.319 --> 02:56:16.200 is that, you know, a real war is going to develop, 2701 02:56:16.559 --> 02:56:27.639 uh before we even realize what's under way. But Odam, uh, 2702 02:56:28.440 --> 02:56:35.159 you know, he he was right. Uh. And uh, the 2703 02:56:35.200 --> 02:56:37.399 Soviet Union being that it was very much on a 2704 02:56:37.440 --> 02:56:40.719 war footing and kind of the entire vector of policy 2705 02:56:41.520 --> 02:56:45.959 it had had like a strategic nuclear axis. Sharon Anko, 2706 02:56:46.000 --> 02:56:47.760 if you're gonna go to war, Sharon Anko is a 2707 02:56:47.799 --> 02:56:51.120 guy who you'd kind of want in the General secretariat. Yeah, 2708 02:56:51.200 --> 02:56:53.200 but at that point he was dotty in senile. But 2709 02:56:53.239 --> 02:56:56.959 the fact is, uh, the guy had tremendous esteem from 2710 02:56:57.000 --> 02:57:02.639 the military, from the uniform to the design bureaus, you know, 2711 02:57:03.159 --> 02:57:06.000 to the men who were suits every day to work, 2712 02:57:06.040 --> 02:57:09.639 but who were like the kind of military industrial complex 2713 02:57:09.639 --> 02:57:12.440 as representatives of the polit burero like Chernanko was like 2714 02:57:12.479 --> 02:57:14.360 a guy like none of them would have like disagreed 2715 02:57:14.360 --> 02:57:17.120 on and on the party side, you know, the guy 2716 02:57:17.120 --> 02:57:19.719 had been basically chief ideologists like when he was young 2717 02:57:19.719 --> 02:57:24.000 and had his brains. So it didn't matter that Chernanko 2718 02:57:24.040 --> 02:57:26.879 himself was wholly out of it because obviously like his 2719 02:57:27.000 --> 02:57:30.760 proteges or people very much who were you know, viewed 2720 02:57:30.760 --> 02:57:34.000 as carrying out like his will and legacy. And if 2721 02:57:34.000 --> 02:57:36.440 it was gonna come down like a general war with NATO, 2722 02:57:37.799 --> 02:57:39.760 he's kind of a man you'd want there. He would 2723 02:57:39.799 --> 02:57:41.799 not want to hand the reins to borbashaw Off, even 2724 02:57:41.799 --> 02:57:45.079 if he thought he was a great prodigy because uh, 2725 02:57:45.920 --> 02:57:47.959 you know, I mean he was in his fifties. He 2726 02:57:48.000 --> 02:57:50.639 wasn't like young and absolute terms, but he was like 2727 02:57:50.719 --> 02:57:53.479 a sprats like in the Soviet system, like he was 2728 02:57:53.520 --> 02:57:55.559 literally like the youngest man like in the polit Buro. 2729 02:57:56.040 --> 02:57:59.200 But beyond that, as much as he shadowed it drop 2730 02:57:59.280 --> 02:58:01.399 off and when it drop us final year when he 2731 02:58:01.479 --> 02:58:04.920 was you know, bedridden, basically, Garbachov would literally stand in 2732 02:58:05.000 --> 02:58:07.840 for him. That's definitely being the actual decision maker, particularly 2733 02:58:07.840 --> 02:58:10.000 a general secretary in a system like the Soviet Union. 2734 02:58:10.680 --> 02:58:16.280 So considering the international situation, it wasn't just internal politics 2735 02:58:16.280 --> 02:58:22.120 and egos and and kind of literally byzantine, you know, 2736 02:58:22.719 --> 02:58:27.479 intrigues that led to Scheronanko getting installed on a general 2737 02:58:27.520 --> 02:58:30.479 secretary there, there's like an internal logic to it, like 2738 02:58:30.600 --> 02:58:33.239 weird as the Soviet system was and kind of strange 2739 02:58:33.239 --> 02:58:39.440 to us as the Russian system is. But as uh 2740 02:58:39.920 --> 02:58:45.399 As Garbachev succeeded Tcheronenko who died in office just like 2741 02:58:45.479 --> 02:58:49.639 interrop of day and just like bresnav did you know, 2742 02:58:49.680 --> 02:58:52.559 and that and that hurt the Soviet Union in in 2743 02:58:52.559 --> 02:58:54.799 in in terms of their optics in a basic way 2744 02:58:55.799 --> 02:59:00.040 in eighty two, like Bresnev you know, dies like a 2745 02:59:00.120 --> 02:59:02.200 year and ten months later like and drop Off dies, 2746 02:59:02.239 --> 02:59:04.719 and then literally thirteen months later like Cheranngle dies. It's 2747 02:59:04.719 --> 02:59:07.559 like you've got this, you know, the world's one of 2748 02:59:07.559 --> 02:59:10.319 the world's you know, one of the world's only two superpowers, 2749 02:59:10.719 --> 02:59:13.200 you know, the mighty Soviet Union. It's like they've got 2750 02:59:13.200 --> 02:59:15.520 these doddering old men, like one after the other, like 2751 02:59:15.559 --> 02:59:17.719 who just literally keep dying. That's not a good look, 2752 02:59:18.319 --> 02:59:23.040 you know, and especially contra Reagan, who uh, I mean 2753 02:59:23.040 --> 02:59:25.559 these days, Reagan wouldn't seem like pretty elderly, but in 2754 02:59:25.600 --> 02:59:27.559 those days, people talk a lot of shit, like, you know, 2755 02:59:27.719 --> 02:59:29.879 Reagan's just this old man, even though he was only 2756 02:59:29.920 --> 02:59:32.719 about seventy, which was old, I mean in nineteen eighty. 2757 02:59:32.959 --> 02:59:36.079 But Reagan, the guy had like an absurd amount of energy, 2758 02:59:36.479 --> 02:59:39.200 you know, like almost Trump tried to capture some of that. 2759 02:59:39.399 --> 02:59:41.239 And Trump is a high energy guy pretty lately for 2760 02:59:41.280 --> 02:59:45.000 a guy who's like pushing eighty. But with Reagan, it 2761 02:59:45.079 --> 02:59:47.680 like was not at all like an affectation. So you've 2762 02:59:47.680 --> 02:59:49.799 got like Reagan, who's you know, Reagan's aways got a 2763 02:59:49.799 --> 02:59:52.000 smile on his face, so he's got perfect hair. You know, 2764 02:59:52.040 --> 02:59:54.719 the guy's like sharp as a fucking tack, and you know, 2765 02:59:54.760 --> 02:59:56.879 he's got a sense of humored arrival, like he's got 2766 02:59:56.959 --> 03:00:00.360 he's got a dry humored arrival Johnny Carson. You got him, 2767 03:00:00.360 --> 03:00:03.319 and then you got like literally doddering, shaking Bresnet, who's like, 2768 03:00:03.360 --> 03:00:05.719 you know, dropping dead week later. You know, you have 2769 03:00:05.760 --> 03:00:07.360 to replace me. And it's like even worse. I'm like, 2770 03:00:08.040 --> 03:00:11.200 you know, he's you know, he's dead within you know, 2771 03:00:11.239 --> 03:00:13.799 within less than two years. Like it it indicated like 2772 03:00:13.840 --> 03:00:19.440 a real, real structural problem. But that's why, that's why 2773 03:00:19.440 --> 03:00:24.680 there's so much uncertainty on Garbachew because, like I said, 2774 03:00:25.200 --> 03:00:28.200 he was, uh he was the youngest man in the 2775 03:00:28.200 --> 03:00:31.120 poet Burrow. His main rival was a guy named Gregory Roumanoff, 2776 03:00:32.760 --> 03:00:36.440 who was very much uh it was very much a 2777 03:00:36.559 --> 03:00:45.319 hawk uh on on on strategic matters. He uh he 2778 03:00:45.440 --> 03:00:49.159 staunchly opposed any kind of compromise and intermediate nuclear forces 2779 03:00:49.200 --> 03:00:52.079 in Europe. As we talked about last episode, that that's 2780 03:00:52.120 --> 03:00:56.479 what prompted the person to deployment was uh, you know, 2781 03:00:57.879 --> 03:01:04.040 that was the primary like theater based nuclear weapons platform 2782 03:01:04.159 --> 03:01:09.399 for the US Army and deployed in the Buddhist Republic 2783 03:01:09.719 --> 03:01:14.239 or in Italy or in the Benelux countries that's at 2784 03:01:14.239 --> 03:01:19.159 the cavitation range of Moscow. And the impetus for that 2785 03:01:19.959 --> 03:01:26.399 was a Soviet deployment of of SS nineteens and SS twenties. 2786 03:01:28.120 --> 03:01:34.600 Obviously the intention of Soviets with the decopple European strategic 2787 03:01:34.680 --> 03:01:38.000 policy from America's, you know, like if you threaten Europe 2788 03:01:38.000 --> 03:01:40.079 in nuclear annihilation and tell them like look and in 2789 03:01:40.120 --> 03:01:44.559 general war, we're gonna target you simultaneous United States and 2790 03:01:44.600 --> 03:01:46.280 as long as you're in NATO, like there's no way 2791 03:01:46.280 --> 03:01:50.399 out of this. That changed things, and I believe that's 2792 03:01:50.440 --> 03:01:52.079 one of the things that really put the Green Party 2793 03:01:52.079 --> 03:01:55.120 on the map, Okay, like environmental stuff or like social 2794 03:01:55.280 --> 03:01:58.799 justice stuff as we think of it today, that was incidental, 2795 03:01:59.399 --> 03:02:00.760 Like there is a will fly out of the Green 2796 03:02:00.799 --> 03:02:04.799 Party is because Germans are genuinely terrified of of Germany 2797 03:02:04.799 --> 03:02:07.799 being the designated like nuclear battle theater of World War three, 2798 03:02:07.840 --> 03:02:09.760 and like I don't follow them for that. Okay, I'm 2799 03:02:09.760 --> 03:02:12.000 not thinking, I say, with the Green Party, but it's 2800 03:02:12.000 --> 03:02:13.719 easy for people to say no, like, oh, those guys 2801 03:02:13.719 --> 03:02:15.799 are all just like faggots. It's like, okay, man, but 2802 03:02:15.920 --> 03:02:19.120 like I you know, some guy in the Buddhist Republic 2803 03:02:19.159 --> 03:02:21.399 in nineteen eighty, like he wasn't just being a fagot 2804 03:02:21.440 --> 03:02:23.479 if he's like, you know, I don't like it. I 2805 03:02:23.479 --> 03:02:25.639 don't want to be the designated, Like I don't my 2806 03:02:25.719 --> 03:02:28.840 house being like a designated you know, like like nuclear 2807 03:02:28.879 --> 03:02:32.239 battlefield between Ivan and America. Like you know, it's not 2808 03:02:32.920 --> 03:02:34.879 we can't even really be secialize what that was like. 2809 03:02:34.920 --> 03:02:37.040 And I mean it's also you know, West Germany was 2810 03:02:37.040 --> 03:02:37.600 like little like. 2811 03:02:37.840 --> 03:02:39.639 People have no idea, people have no idea what it 2812 03:02:39.680 --> 03:02:41.959 was like there. I mean my parent, my parents lived 2813 03:02:41.959 --> 03:02:44.280 there for three years. I was born there. You know, 2814 03:02:44.360 --> 03:02:49.120 my dad had to go through checkpoint Charlie. Yeah, I 2815 03:02:49.200 --> 03:02:55.159 mean it was He's at the closest definitions of dystopian 2816 03:02:55.239 --> 03:02:55.959 that there ever was. 2817 03:02:56.639 --> 03:02:58.760 Well, yeah, it's like William Odom speaking of him as 2818 03:02:58.760 --> 03:03:01.040 well as some of these line officers, and like even 2819 03:03:01.079 --> 03:03:02.959 my dad was never like deployed there, but I mean 2820 03:03:03.000 --> 03:03:04.559 he was in the Buddhist Republic and he was at 2821 03:03:04.559 --> 03:03:06.440 the inner German border many times, you know, like in 2822 03:03:06.479 --> 03:03:08.600 that era, and he's like it was like he's like 2823 03:03:08.600 --> 03:03:10.239 it was like like a real war. It's like this 2824 03:03:10.360 --> 03:03:12.040 it wasn't like so he's like he's like the he's 2825 03:03:12.079 --> 03:03:14.639 like the national evokes are me and these like Soviet runts, 2826 03:03:14.719 --> 03:03:17.399 they were like loafing around playing cars. Like these guys 2827 03:03:17.399 --> 03:03:19.239 were like treating it like they were at war. And 2828 03:03:19.280 --> 03:03:20.840 I mean so it's like the Buddhist fair and so 2829 03:03:21.000 --> 03:03:22.959 was like the US army. But it's there's not there's 2830 03:03:23.040 --> 03:03:24.760 not like a joke or something where it's you know 2831 03:03:24.840 --> 03:03:28.079 like it. I think people imagine almost like old cartoon 2832 03:03:28.120 --> 03:03:31.920 where there's like uh, where there's a there's like the 2833 03:03:31.959 --> 03:03:33.760 fox and he's like trying to like get the chickens. 2834 03:03:33.760 --> 03:03:35.280 Then there's like the sheep dog and they like they 2835 03:03:35.360 --> 03:03:38.120 had clock it. He's like big Carl like Sai, you know, 2836 03:03:38.159 --> 03:03:39.360 and then they kind of like pretend to go through 2837 03:03:39.360 --> 03:03:42.120 the motions. I mean, I'm sure there, I'm sure there 2838 03:03:42.120 --> 03:03:45.360 are like like hostle borders like that, like inner German border, 2839 03:03:45.399 --> 03:03:47.559 like that was not the case. I mean like you know, 2840 03:03:47.600 --> 03:03:51.719 I mean yeah, but it's so you know, but be 2841 03:03:51.920 --> 03:03:57.719 as it may. Like Reagan's Reagan's uh like like Reagan's 2842 03:03:57.760 --> 03:04:00.600 big kind of first like foreign policy coup in like 2843 03:04:00.639 --> 03:04:04.639 diplomatic terms, was was getting to the Soviets the table 2844 03:04:04.799 --> 03:04:07.120 uh on the I n F Treaty. And the way 2845 03:04:07.120 --> 03:04:10.639 he did it was he said like look like you know, 2846 03:04:10.760 --> 03:04:12.959 we'll we'll take the persons out and we'll take any 2847 03:04:13.120 --> 03:04:16.680 any comparable and like successor systems like off the table. 2848 03:04:16.760 --> 03:04:18.639 Like what basically he's like, we can either have a 2849 03:04:18.719 --> 03:04:22.079 nuclear free Europe or like we're gonna be shoving these 2850 03:04:22.079 --> 03:04:25.559 theater based weapons up your assi decapitation range like in perpetuity. 2851 03:04:29.559 --> 03:04:32.000 In the school of conventional diplomacy, like that's not the 2852 03:04:32.040 --> 03:04:35.760 right way to do things, because it's like very freeing Biery. 2853 03:04:36.200 --> 03:04:39.399 But you're talking about when when you're talking about strategic 2854 03:04:39.520 --> 03:04:42.799 nuclear conditions of parody, when you're talking about kind of 2855 03:04:42.799 --> 03:04:44.719 the strange you're talking about it, and we're talking about 2856 03:04:44.719 --> 03:04:47.079 the stakes like the Soviets had in this that actually 2857 03:04:47.120 --> 03:04:50.639 it was like a brilliant move and Reagan deserves like 2858 03:04:50.719 --> 03:04:55.799 mad credit for that. But there was a lot of 2859 03:04:55.879 --> 03:05:01.600 resistance within uh, the Soviet military establishment, especially from people 2860 03:05:01.600 --> 03:05:09.159 like Usanov to this happening. So obviously Gorbachev did you know, 2861 03:05:09.239 --> 03:05:14.520 like succeeded Sharon succeed Sharonenko and Romanov. UH one of 2862 03:05:14.559 --> 03:05:17.079 his first when of Goerrichov's first act of General secretary 2863 03:05:17.159 --> 03:05:19.600 was like sideline Romanov. He didn't he didn't like punish 2864 03:05:19.600 --> 03:05:21.639 the guy, but he basically like retired to him like 2865 03:05:21.719 --> 03:05:25.760 you know with with in in genteel kind of powerlessness. Okay, so, 2866 03:05:26.600 --> 03:05:29.399 but what Gorchov still had was uh and then and 2867 03:05:29.440 --> 03:05:33.680 then and then Usanov died almost immediately after okay Uznov 2868 03:05:33.760 --> 03:05:35.920 died to believe at the restart in nineteen eighty five. 2869 03:05:36.319 --> 03:05:38.520 It was late eighty four or eighty five. But within 2870 03:05:38.559 --> 03:05:42.079 the military itself, like Goorachov, had a tremendous amount of 2871 03:05:42.079 --> 03:05:46.319 opposition and they had clout, I mean in America, like 2872 03:05:46.360 --> 03:05:48.399 the military during the Cold War had a huge cloud, 2873 03:05:48.440 --> 03:05:50.239 but it was like nothing to bear to the Soviet Union, 2874 03:05:50.719 --> 03:05:54.200 like the defense establishment even now in the Russian Federation 2875 03:05:54.879 --> 03:05:57.680 they I'm not saying it's like cunative leader like the 2876 03:05:57.680 --> 03:05:59.399 way that like Neo Kon say that like it's some 2877 03:05:59.479 --> 03:06:02.319 bad thing. Is that the reality, like the trajector, and 2878 03:06:02.319 --> 03:06:05.680 I mean Russia also was like existential threats that they 2879 03:06:05.719 --> 03:06:08.639 faced as a country that most states don't. But like 2880 03:06:08.680 --> 03:06:12.719 the traject the course of policy is set by the 2881 03:06:12.760 --> 03:06:16.280 defense industry in a way that it's not in a 2882 03:06:16.280 --> 03:06:19.239 way that it's not you know in a state like 2883 03:06:19.239 --> 03:06:21.680 like in like America or like the UK, even during 2884 03:06:21.719 --> 03:06:25.600 the Cold War. But what changed that, what kind of 2885 03:06:25.639 --> 03:06:30.360 allowed Gorbachev to essentially purged any kind of hostile general 2886 03:06:30.399 --> 03:06:35.200 officers is really fascinating. And the immediate catalyst to that 2887 03:06:36.399 --> 03:06:40.360 was the was the flight of a kid, like literally 2888 03:06:40.399 --> 03:06:45.440 a kid named Matthias rusk Roost. He was a German kid, 2889 03:06:46.280 --> 03:06:49.000 and he took Assessma. He didn't have many flay hours. 2890 03:06:49.040 --> 03:06:51.360 He only had about fifty or sixty like like hours 2891 03:06:51.360 --> 03:06:56.319 of flight time. He rented the Assessna one seventy two P, 2892 03:06:56.600 --> 03:06:58.879 which is like, you know, like Assessna like prop plane, okay, 2893 03:06:59.000 --> 03:07:02.879 like it. And what he did was he ripped out 2894 03:07:03.200 --> 03:07:05.600 a bunch of the interior like including all but like 2895 03:07:05.639 --> 03:07:09.959 the pilot's seat, and he replaced him with auxiliary fuel tanks. 2896 03:07:10.600 --> 03:07:14.079 And what he did was, uh, he tested out kind 2897 03:07:14.079 --> 03:07:15.920 of his chops on long flights. He flew to the 2898 03:07:15.920 --> 03:07:19.920 Faroe Islands, he went to Iceland. Uh. From Iceland, he 2899 03:07:19.959 --> 03:07:24.840 flew to Bergen and uh, ultimately he did this because 2900 03:07:24.840 --> 03:07:27.280 his idea was to fly to the Soviet Union, which 2901 03:07:27.280 --> 03:07:31.120 seems totally insane and it was, but what he what 2902 03:07:31.200 --> 03:07:33.399 his note He he claimed he did it as like 2903 03:07:33.399 --> 03:07:35.680 an emissary of peace and to build like a proverbial 2904 03:07:35.719 --> 03:07:38.200 bridge between the Bunus Republic and Moscow, which is actually 2905 03:07:38.200 --> 03:07:42.440 pretty profound. I'll get to that, and and kind of 2906 03:07:42.440 --> 03:07:45.399 how this this was actually videotaped by a British tourist 2907 03:07:45.399 --> 03:07:47.760 who was on the ground in Moscow. That's why, like 2908 03:07:47.840 --> 03:07:49.639 everybody saw it. There was a little kid I remember 2909 03:07:49.639 --> 03:07:52.440 being this was like a very like awesome event, you know, 2910 03:07:52.520 --> 03:07:56.840 it was like it was wild. But Matthias roost he 2911 03:07:56.959 --> 03:08:00.280 uh he leaves from Helsinki, Finland. He had he reached 2912 03:08:00.319 --> 03:08:02.879 the Soviet airspace with the intention, with the intention to 2913 03:08:03.000 --> 03:08:08.319 reach Moscow. Now how did he do this? Okay, we're 2914 03:08:08.319 --> 03:08:11.000 talking about kind of a reverse hispanically, kind of like 2915 03:08:11.040 --> 03:08:15.360 reverse situation of what happened with KL double O seven, okay, 2916 03:08:15.360 --> 03:08:18.879 which was you know shot down as it was misidentified. 2917 03:08:22.440 --> 03:08:25.200 Rust was flying this little plant, this little prop plane 2918 03:08:25.280 --> 03:08:28.760 that looks at visual range almost exactly like a Yakol 2919 03:08:28.799 --> 03:08:31.879 of twelve, which it was used all over the Soviet 2920 03:08:31.959 --> 03:08:37.280 Union for various purposes, you know, like in the UH 2921 03:08:37.319 --> 03:08:39.719 in the Siberian wilderness. They used them because you know, 2922 03:08:39.799 --> 03:08:44.079 kind of like Alaska, like that's your basic uh means 2923 03:08:44.079 --> 03:08:46.719 of travel in there, like on the open step, like 2924 03:08:46.840 --> 03:08:50.159 surveyors and like naturalists would like use them, you know, 2925 03:08:50.879 --> 03:08:52.719 like party members that use them. That's kind of like 2926 03:08:52.760 --> 03:08:55.719 shuttle around. So like the sudden appearance of of like 2927 03:08:55.799 --> 03:08:58.840 the cest now like it wouldn't really throw alarms in 2928 03:08:58.959 --> 03:09:03.719 conventional in a conventional situation, but Moscow was known to 2929 03:09:03.799 --> 03:09:08.639 have like the toughest air defenses in the world. Like, uh, 2930 03:09:08.760 --> 03:09:13.120 it's telling like during Linebacker two, you know, when downtown 2931 03:09:13.399 --> 03:09:15.959 Hanoi was hit, uh, the kind of kind of final 2932 03:09:16.040 --> 03:09:22.079 massive strategic air operation against Hanoi, Like downtown Hanoi was 2933 03:09:22.120 --> 03:09:24.520 considered to be the most fortified city in the world, 2934 03:09:24.760 --> 03:09:26.920 like the hardest target in the world other than Moscow, 2935 03:09:27.280 --> 03:09:30.040 and like nothing in the Soviets very much cultivated this, 2936 03:09:30.440 --> 03:09:33.639 not just his image, but you know, Moscow was supposed 2937 03:09:33.680 --> 03:09:36.799 to be like the hardest of all targets. So the 2938 03:09:36.840 --> 03:09:40.680 fact that the fact that this kid could fly his 2939 03:09:40.760 --> 03:09:45.040 aircraft into Moscow and he crossed like several uh uh 2940 03:09:46.079 --> 03:09:55.280 designated like air defense you know, uh checkpoints and uh 2941 03:09:55.959 --> 03:09:59.920 apparently at first, uh there was a there was a 2942 03:10:00.079 --> 03:10:05.719 rookie ground control crew and uh when they sent the 2943 03:10:05.760 --> 03:10:09.239 signal out for a I f F you know, identification 2944 03:10:09.360 --> 03:10:13.680 friend or foe RUS like switched off his uh his 2945 03:10:13.760 --> 03:10:19.319 communication equipment and like went dark and not knowing what 2946 03:10:19.360 --> 03:10:21.600 the proper code was to send out like over the 2947 03:10:21.639 --> 03:10:23.879 airwaves for like what the status of the aircraft was, 2948 03:10:25.520 --> 03:10:27.840 these guys, these Russians on the ground like dropped the 2949 03:10:27.879 --> 03:10:31.440 code for like friendly instead of like unknown like possibly hostile. 2950 03:10:32.200 --> 03:10:34.479 Like so then like, uh, when he breached, like the 2951 03:10:34.520 --> 03:10:37.360 next kind of uh, you know, the the next kind 2952 03:10:37.399 --> 03:10:43.000 of a hurdle verbially speaking, you know, he he he'd 2953 03:10:43.000 --> 03:10:45.600 already been like identified as like as as like a 2954 03:10:45.639 --> 03:10:49.600 friendly aircraft, and then like as he as he approached 2955 03:10:49.600 --> 03:10:53.399 like Moscow, like Moscow Air Defense, Like it's just like 2956 03:10:53.520 --> 03:10:55.399 you know, they saw it look to be like a 2957 03:10:55.479 --> 03:10:57.520 yacko leb like on the on the gate at at 2958 03:10:57.559 --> 03:10:59.879 the at the gates of Moscow, Like they didn't even 2959 03:11:00.079 --> 03:11:02.000 twice about it because it's not it's not a warplane. 2960 03:11:02.159 --> 03:11:04.920 I think it's here in the first place. Obviously it's okay, 2961 03:11:05.479 --> 03:11:07.879 I mean, so it's it's this weird kind of like failure, 2962 03:11:08.440 --> 03:11:09.799 you know, Like I said, it's kind of like the 2963 03:11:09.840 --> 03:11:14.239 splendid reverse of of what happened with the kale F 2964 03:11:14.360 --> 03:11:18.200 like double O seven, but but at the same time 2965 03:11:18.280 --> 03:11:21.840 again too. Like in under normal kind of uh peace 2966 03:11:21.840 --> 03:11:25.360 time conditions, this wouldn't really be an issue. But this, uh, 2967 03:11:26.040 --> 03:11:28.479 this this had a horrible effect that I'm like the 2968 03:11:28.479 --> 03:11:32.920 prestige of the Soviet military. And what Gorba job did was, 2969 03:11:33.079 --> 03:11:36.440 uh it gave him essentially the mandate to clear out 2970 03:11:36.559 --> 03:11:39.280 basically like anybody in uniform that he did not like. 2971 03:11:39.319 --> 03:11:43.360 And that's exactly what he did. The like the Officer 2972 03:11:43.399 --> 03:11:45.920 corps of of of the the Soviet military was just 2973 03:11:45.920 --> 03:11:50.600 completely freaking like smashed Roust himself. He literally landed in 2974 03:11:50.639 --> 03:11:53.959 Red Square and the footage is crazy because like this 2975 03:11:54.000 --> 03:11:55.799 guy just like lands like and then he landed on 2976 03:11:55.840 --> 03:11:58.600 a bridge adjacent to Red Square in the middle of 2977 03:11:58.600 --> 03:12:01.239 the afternoon. He gets down here like waves and he says, 2978 03:12:01.239 --> 03:12:03.479 you know, like I'm German, you know, I'm from West Germany, 2979 03:12:03.479 --> 03:12:07.600 and people like, you know, like what the fuck? And 2980 03:12:07.680 --> 03:12:10.280 he said he landed. He said originally thought about landing 2981 03:12:10.280 --> 03:12:12.959 in the Kremlin, but he said that then he realized 2982 03:12:13.000 --> 03:12:15.520 if he did that, like he'd be arrested by KGB 2983 03:12:15.680 --> 03:12:19.079 or f S or g r U, and uh, you know, 2984 03:12:19.120 --> 03:12:21.479 the Kremlin just denied that like it happened, you know, 2985 03:12:21.559 --> 03:12:23.239 so He's like at least I mean he had he'd 2986 03:12:23.239 --> 03:12:25.000 have no idea of knowing that, you know, there'd be 2987 03:12:25.040 --> 03:12:27.719 this like this this this British tourist like a video 2988 03:12:27.799 --> 03:12:31.159 camera camp quorder. But at least it'd be like eyewitnesses 2989 03:12:31.200 --> 03:12:33.120 and be like, hey, I saw this dude land he 2990 03:12:33.239 --> 03:12:35.280 like this happened. You know, you can't just say it didn't. 2991 03:12:36.000 --> 03:12:41.840 But he roost was, uh, you know, like like two 2992 03:12:41.840 --> 03:12:43.440 hours later, like he was arrested. 2993 03:12:46.520 --> 03:12:48.840 Let me ask you a question, because there's something somebody 2994 03:12:48.879 --> 03:12:52.920 might ask this question. Yeah, everybody gets the idea that 2995 03:12:53.000 --> 03:12:56.639 the Soviet Union was this place that was actually absolutely 2996 03:12:56.680 --> 03:12:59.440 locked down. No one went in and out. And you 2997 03:12:59.600 --> 03:13:04.079 just said that immediately the first person who confronts him 2998 03:13:04.120 --> 03:13:07.799 as a British tourist, what was what was a tourism 2999 03:13:07.879 --> 03:13:10.159 situation as far as Soviet Union? 3000 03:13:10.239 --> 03:13:12.959 Let I mean the Soviet Union. Actually I can't remember 3001 03:13:12.959 --> 03:13:15.719 the name of it, but until from the nineteen fifties 3002 03:13:15.799 --> 03:13:19.639 until literally nineteen ninety h the Kremlin published this magazine. 3003 03:13:20.280 --> 03:13:22.159 It was it was called something like Moscow Life. And 3004 03:13:22.200 --> 03:13:24.120 I used to see that the newsstands sometimes and like 3005 03:13:24.120 --> 03:13:25.680 flipped through it when I was like a little kid, 3006 03:13:25.920 --> 03:13:28.520 because and that was that was like the Kremlin. It was. 3007 03:13:28.520 --> 03:13:30.799 It was them like showcasing like why the Soviet Union 3008 03:13:30.879 --> 03:13:33.440 is good, but also like it was supposed to draw 3009 03:13:33.520 --> 03:13:37.040 like tourists, and there's a lot of stuff you couldn't 3010 03:13:37.079 --> 03:13:39.280 see and a lot of places you couldn't go, and 3011 03:13:39.319 --> 03:13:44.840 like you'd be followed, you know, uh in like at 3012 03:13:44.920 --> 03:13:48.360 least casually, you know, because like everybody was it was 3013 03:13:48.399 --> 03:13:50.520 like a foreign There was like an entire KGB direct 3014 03:13:50.520 --> 03:13:52.360 direct to like keep an eye on like foreign visitors. 3015 03:13:53.200 --> 03:13:54.840 But I mean, yeah, you could. You could visit the 3016 03:13:54.840 --> 03:13:57.079 Soviet Union as long as there was nothing it was 3017 03:13:57.120 --> 03:13:59.479 as long as there was nothing about your background that 3018 03:13:59.479 --> 03:14:03.319 that fled you. Like the real these were the Soviet 3019 03:14:03.360 --> 03:14:05.959 unions that was hard to leave. It wasn't hard to 3020 03:14:06.000 --> 03:14:08.959 go eastward like basically like throughout the Eastern Block. He 3021 03:14:09.000 --> 03:14:13.520 could basically go where if you wanted. But uh, you know, 3022 03:14:13.520 --> 03:14:15.840 a sist in the Soviet Union, he was not going 3023 03:14:15.879 --> 03:14:17.760 to be able to visit America. If he was not 3024 03:14:17.760 --> 03:14:20.200 gonna be able to visit the UK. He might be 3025 03:14:20.239 --> 03:14:22.079 able to visit the Buddhist Republic if he's like a 3026 03:14:22.079 --> 03:14:25.079 trusted person in related terms, but that was kind of 3027 03:14:25.079 --> 03:14:30.879 the issue, and it especially during the sixties. There was 3028 03:14:30.920 --> 03:14:34.520 a lot of guys I can remember, and this was 3029 03:14:34.600 --> 03:14:37.040 kind of dumb at the time, Like I really despised 3030 03:14:37.040 --> 03:14:39.639 Bill Clinton, but like Russia Limbaugh was. I remember when 3031 03:14:39.799 --> 03:14:41.799 Bill Clinton was running a ninety two was like he 3032 03:14:41.959 --> 03:14:44.639 visited the Soviet Union as a college student. It's like, okay, 3033 03:14:44.639 --> 03:14:46.559 but like a lot of guys did like that. Bark 3034 03:14:46.600 --> 03:14:48.120 cruise is big thing, like hey, if you want to, 3035 03:14:48.280 --> 03:14:50.479 you know, we're an open book. You know, we want 3036 03:14:50.520 --> 03:14:52.520 American college students to come see how good the Soviet 3037 03:14:52.639 --> 03:14:54.680 Union is. And they in turn set some of their 3038 03:14:54.680 --> 03:14:57.319 exchange students. But these guys were all dudes with like 3039 03:14:57.559 --> 03:14:59.799 party you know, their fathers were party men. There's no 3040 03:14:59.840 --> 03:15:01.479 way these guys are just gonna be like fuck you, 3041 03:15:01.559 --> 03:15:05.319 I'm defecting. Yeah, but like it, I mean if yeah, 3042 03:15:05.319 --> 03:15:07.120 Bill Clint's a total shit big But the point is 3043 03:15:07.159 --> 03:15:09.040 if you were if you were like going to Harvard 3044 03:15:09.120 --> 03:15:12.120 or like Yale or like Stanford and like nineteen sixty five, 3045 03:15:12.280 --> 03:15:14.079 there's like a good chance you would have like visited 3046 03:15:14.079 --> 03:15:20.120 the Soviet Union because like they cultivated that some of 3047 03:15:20.159 --> 03:15:22.719 that started to change. Uh, you know, kind of like 3048 03:15:22.799 --> 03:15:26.639 post aton like Asovie Unit started to look more and 3049 03:15:26.639 --> 03:15:29.239 more like scary to people, frankly, And I mean in 3050 03:15:29.319 --> 03:15:32.360 the I know a lot of guys who are like 3051 03:15:32.680 --> 03:15:34.280 five and ten years older than me, like when I 3052 03:15:34.280 --> 03:15:36.959 was a little kid who like visited East Germany and 3053 03:15:37.000 --> 03:15:39.920 then like, oh, it's crazy, but like nobody really wanted 3054 03:15:39.920 --> 03:15:42.559 to go to the Soviet Union frankly, Like I I mean, 3055 03:15:42.600 --> 03:15:45.159 whether that's like ignorant or not whatever, but you know, 3056 03:15:45.239 --> 03:15:48.040 by like nineteen eighty, you know, it was kind of 3057 03:15:48.079 --> 03:15:49.840 like why the you know that that place is fucked, 3058 03:15:49.840 --> 03:15:53.200 you know, like I don't want to go there, but uh, 3059 03:15:53.280 --> 03:15:54.760 and the like and again I think that's I think 3060 03:15:54.760 --> 03:15:56.440 that's kind of twisted. Frankly. I would have loved to 3061 03:15:56.440 --> 03:15:58.120 go to the Soviet Union because it would have been 3062 03:15:58.159 --> 03:16:00.680 pretty awesome, like not not cool to like live there, 3063 03:16:00.840 --> 03:16:03.120 but like to see you know, like it. But that 3064 03:16:03.239 --> 03:16:06.280 was kind of the deal and it and it's also 3065 03:16:08.799 --> 03:16:11.040 and and like depending on like the you know, but yeah, 3066 03:16:11.079 --> 03:16:14.319 the uh the uh it was basically uh, you know, 3067 03:16:14.360 --> 03:16:17.040 the Sovietnion like welcome tourism in its own kind of way, 3068 03:16:17.120 --> 03:16:19.600 and you know, but the fact is, you know, the 3069 03:16:19.719 --> 03:16:22.680 the kind of splendid appsentence of like Soviet citizens here 3070 03:16:22.680 --> 03:16:24.879 in America, like that was exactly why. But it was 3071 03:16:24.920 --> 03:16:26.959 like nobody had any money. It's like let's say, like 3072 03:16:27.120 --> 03:16:29.920 let's say I'm like Joe, like you know, I'm even 3073 03:16:30.000 --> 03:16:33.760 you know in uh in the USSR in nineteen nineteen eighty. 3074 03:16:33.959 --> 03:16:35.319 Like even if I was, even if I was like 3075 03:16:35.479 --> 03:16:38.280 educated at skills, I've got like no money. And even 3076 03:16:38.280 --> 03:16:40.479 if like somehow as a miracle I got you know, 3077 03:16:40.600 --> 03:16:43.840 like a visa from the Kremlin, like I'm gonna like 3078 03:16:43.879 --> 03:16:47.079 land in Chicago or Philly or like la, it just big, Hey, 3079 03:16:47.079 --> 03:16:49.399 I've got zero money. I don't really speak English, but 3080 03:16:49.440 --> 03:16:52.040 like give me a job. Like that's not especially in 3081 03:16:52.079 --> 03:16:54.040 them days too, like stuff just didn't work that way. 3082 03:16:54.159 --> 03:17:00.280 So yeah, but it it. But the Soviets too given 3083 03:17:00.280 --> 03:17:02.520 with even with some in the show the Americans, which 3084 03:17:02.520 --> 03:17:04.079 in some ways it's hokey, but in some ways it's 3085 03:17:04.079 --> 03:17:10.280 really dope. The guy and like his wife, who's yeah, 3086 03:17:10.280 --> 03:17:12.040 the lady who like stands in his wife, you know, 3087 03:17:12.159 --> 03:17:14.040 like they when they show like what he went through 3088 03:17:14.200 --> 03:17:17.280 like as like a kg B like deep Cover operative, 3089 03:17:17.760 --> 03:17:21.000 like they're basically making sure like he wouldn't defect, you know, 3090 03:17:21.079 --> 03:17:23.239 and like just become like enamored with the American way 3091 03:17:23.239 --> 03:17:26.760 of life. And that actually is like legit. Like the 3092 03:17:26.840 --> 03:17:29.799 guys the kgb AT in the g r U Lesser 3093 03:17:29.840 --> 03:17:32.719 Degree had a lot of uh sleep ragents on the ground, 3094 03:17:33.479 --> 03:17:36.440 like those people in that show, and they basically vetted 3095 03:17:36.479 --> 03:17:39.680 them to be like you're not gonna go crazy when 3096 03:17:40.120 --> 03:17:42.879 you know you realize you can like you know, you 3097 03:17:42.879 --> 03:17:44.719 can kind of like get stuff in America. You can't 3098 03:17:44.719 --> 03:17:46.920 hear because it's like not you're either like you're in 3099 03:17:46.959 --> 03:17:49.840 a seating and you and you're totally down for the party, 3100 03:17:50.360 --> 03:17:52.639 or you've just been kind of like you know, like 3101 03:17:52.799 --> 03:17:56.159 it's the kind of the you know, the kind of 3102 03:17:56.600 --> 03:17:58.840 fascination such things hold over you has kind of been 3103 03:17:58.879 --> 03:18:00.840 like bread out of you, were like smashed out of you. 3104 03:18:01.520 --> 03:18:04.680 But yeah, it's uh, it's do you. 3105 03:18:04.680 --> 03:18:06.600 Ever wonder if they did you ever wonder if they 3106 03:18:06.680 --> 03:18:10.360 sent any of those over here like towards the end 3107 03:18:10.399 --> 03:18:13.040 of the so and then they're just still here and 3108 03:18:13.079 --> 03:18:15.040 they're just like they never went home and they're just 3109 03:18:15.719 --> 03:18:17.319 like that. 3110 03:18:17.920 --> 03:18:20.840 This one guy, uh, the Soviet Union had one and 3111 03:18:20.959 --> 03:18:23.559 drop off speech during the able larger era. It was 3112 03:18:23.639 --> 03:18:25.360 kind of like it was kind of like the drop 3113 03:18:25.399 --> 03:18:28.920 up version of the secret speech. He addressed the polit 3114 03:18:28.959 --> 03:18:31.520 Burrow and he said like, look, he's like we're acting. 3115 03:18:31.520 --> 03:18:34.319 He's like in military terms, you know, in key theaters, 3116 03:18:34.360 --> 03:18:36.159 we're doing well. But he's like we were losing the 3117 03:18:36.159 --> 03:18:39.360 Cold War. You know. He's like, uh, you know, he's 3118 03:18:39.399 --> 03:18:41.799 like our textiles industry is like compared to Japan as 3119 03:18:41.799 --> 03:18:44.440 like primitive as hell. You know. He's like our agriculture. 3120 03:18:44.440 --> 03:18:49.600 He's like, we're literally dependent and America from America and 3121 03:18:50.040 --> 03:18:51.959 you know, you know, in a bad harvest. You know, 3122 03:18:52.000 --> 03:18:54.000 he's like we've got less than like a thousand you know, 3123 03:18:54.159 --> 03:18:57.440 like computers in America, like a computers a kid's toy. 3124 03:18:57.600 --> 03:19:03.079 He's just like going down the list. Okay. That so 3125 03:19:03.159 --> 03:19:04.879 the Soviet Union. One of the things they did was 3126 03:19:05.760 --> 03:19:08.000 they sent a lot of mathematicians and like guys with 3127 03:19:08.079 --> 03:19:12.200 formal logic knowledge or guys who'd like bet in Western Europe, 3128 03:19:12.239 --> 03:19:15.200 like in a formal capacity as like an operative. They 3129 03:19:15.280 --> 03:19:18.079 sent them to America to get jobs like in nascent 3130 03:19:18.239 --> 03:19:20.639 like it firms. And one of the guys who did that, 3131 03:19:22.200 --> 03:19:24.559 you know, he was like posing as like uh as 3132 03:19:24.639 --> 03:19:26.559 like at as like a West German of like Polish 3133 03:19:26.559 --> 03:19:28.959 dissent or something. He got a job with like this 3134 03:19:29.040 --> 03:19:31.200 it for him in New York in like nineteen eighty one, 3135 03:19:31.600 --> 03:19:33.639 and he'd do like dead drops and New York subway 3136 03:19:33.680 --> 03:19:36.319 and stuff. And then he said that like the last 3137 03:19:36.600 --> 03:19:39.319 basically after a while they just like stopped reporting, you know. 3138 03:19:39.440 --> 03:19:41.479 And then like he said that, like a guy came 3139 03:19:41.520 --> 03:19:44.159 to his apartment and just told him, like you know, 3140 03:19:44.280 --> 03:19:47.159 like he's like, I know what you're doing. And he's like, uh, 3141 03:19:47.840 --> 03:19:50.479 you know, he's like basically like you should probably commit 3142 03:19:50.559 --> 03:19:52.600 suicide or at some point like you're going to be killed, 3143 03:19:52.840 --> 03:19:55.239 you know, because you're like a loose end. So like 3144 03:19:55.280 --> 03:19:57.079 the guy said that, like he's like what should I do. 3145 03:19:57.120 --> 03:19:59.840 He's like, you thought about like mocking up like paperwork 3146 03:19:59.840 --> 03:20:01.760 to he like died of age or something. Is that's 3147 03:20:01.920 --> 03:20:04.239 like the age thing was huge. He thought about like 3148 03:20:04.280 --> 03:20:06.520 trying to like you know, he thought about like just 3149 03:20:06.559 --> 03:20:09.399 openly defecting, you know. But he's like that, he's like 3150 03:20:09.440 --> 03:20:10.840 he didn't have any con He's like, I'm a deep 3151 03:20:10.840 --> 03:20:12.559 cover agent. They're probably they're probably I mean, he's like 3152 03:20:12.559 --> 03:20:14.920 they're not gonna be happy about this. You know, it's like, oh, hey, 3153 03:20:14.920 --> 03:20:16.399 I've been spying on you to the has a decade, 3154 03:20:16.399 --> 03:20:18.520 but hey, can I defect because now like things went left. 3155 03:20:18.639 --> 03:20:21.719 But so he basically said, he's like, you know, like 3156 03:20:21.760 --> 03:20:23.239 by the time he had like a wife with like 3157 03:20:23.280 --> 03:20:25.120 no idea, like what real identity was. I mean, it's 3158 03:20:25.159 --> 03:20:27.159 kind of like a tragic story, but he said, he's 3159 03:20:27.200 --> 03:20:28.479 just like what what the fuck am I gonna do? 3160 03:20:28.559 --> 03:20:30.440 So like I just kept going to work and I 3161 03:20:30.440 --> 03:20:32.159 just kind of like kept waiting for it, and then 3162 03:20:32.159 --> 03:20:34.639 I turned the TV and like the Berlin walls coming down, 3163 03:20:35.159 --> 03:20:38.600 you know, and like so yeah, like this there was 3164 03:20:38.719 --> 03:20:40.719 there was a the guy got like a write off, 3165 03:20:40.760 --> 03:20:42.719 I think, and actually the New Yorker or something like 3166 03:20:42.760 --> 03:20:44.360 back in like the nineties. I'll see if I can 3167 03:20:44.399 --> 03:20:47.159 find it and like so you can like post a link, 3168 03:20:47.200 --> 03:20:50.440 but it's yeah there there there definitely were guys like that. 3169 03:20:50.559 --> 03:20:56.840 And in the reverse too, there was a Jens Carney. Uh, 3170 03:20:57.239 --> 03:20:59.360 he defect. He defected the other way to the d 3171 03:20:59.479 --> 03:21:03.280 d R and like nobody ever knew what happened to him, 3172 03:21:03.319 --> 03:21:06.239 Like he was presumed he defected, but he just like disappeared. 3173 03:21:07.079 --> 03:21:09.639 He was an Air Force guy. You know, he was 3174 03:21:10.000 --> 03:21:12.440 he was he was he had knowledge of like he 3175 03:21:12.520 --> 03:21:15.079 was he was, he was, he was a cryptographer. Okay, 3176 03:21:15.159 --> 03:21:17.799 but uh Jens Carney like if the wall comes down, 3177 03:21:17.879 --> 03:21:20.159 he hides out like pretending to be like a Dutchman 3178 03:21:20.280 --> 03:21:21.920 or something. I think that was or Dane. This cover 3179 03:21:21.959 --> 03:21:24.280 story is that he was a Dane. And then finally, 3180 03:21:24.479 --> 03:21:27.200 uh some like boon this fair or like US Army 3181 03:21:27.319 --> 03:21:29.239 like MP types like who the fuck is this guy? 3182 03:21:29.799 --> 03:21:31.000 You know, just when they were kind of like going 3183 03:21:31.040 --> 03:21:32.879 down the rolls like who's who actually is in the 3184 03:21:32.959 --> 03:21:34.840 d d R and the like that's this freaking that's 3185 03:21:34.840 --> 03:21:37.319 this guy like you know, a decade back just like 3186 03:21:37.719 --> 03:21:41.200 you know went over uh when went over the the 3187 03:21:41.239 --> 03:21:43.920 wall like the other way, you know, as as a 3188 03:21:43.959 --> 03:21:47.399 freaking defector. And and he he got he got Courtz Marshall. 3189 03:21:47.479 --> 03:21:49.920 He got jammed up for like seven years or something, 3190 03:21:49.959 --> 03:21:51.520 I mean, which I think is kind of fucked up. 3191 03:21:51.520 --> 03:21:53.959 I mean it's like once the coldor was over, unless 3192 03:21:53.959 --> 03:21:57.239 he killed somebody, unless he truly did something horrible like 3193 03:21:57.239 --> 03:21:59.520 like passing eyes only nuclear secrets, they should have just 3194 03:21:59.639 --> 03:22:02.760 let it go. But you know, the the Pentagon doesn't 3195 03:22:02.799 --> 03:22:04.680 seem inclined to like let things go like that, and 3196 03:22:04.719 --> 03:22:07.120 the guy wasn't uniform when he affected, So I mean 3197 03:22:07.159 --> 03:22:09.840 it's it's okay, but yeah, there are there are some 3198 03:22:09.959 --> 03:22:12.200 very weird stories about that. But yeah, I mean it 3199 03:22:12.200 --> 03:22:14.399 does beg the question like how many these guys were 3200 03:22:14.399 --> 03:22:16.280 They're like just nobody knew about and they just like 3201 03:22:16.360 --> 03:22:20.000 kept low key and like you know, went about their life. Yeah, 3202 03:22:20.040 --> 03:22:22.520 probably more than people think, because I mean I made 3203 03:22:22.520 --> 03:22:24.479 the point before and it guy named John Caller, he 3204 03:22:24.520 --> 03:22:27.559 wrote a really good history of the sas you know, 3205 03:22:27.600 --> 03:22:29.479 the kind of the one way that like the worst 3206 03:22:29.600 --> 03:22:33.920 up pack like consistently beat NATO was like with their espionage, 3207 03:22:34.319 --> 03:22:37.159 you know, like it wasn't even close like it. Uh, 3208 03:22:37.239 --> 03:22:40.959 and yeah, they they put a tremendous emphasis on human 3209 03:22:41.000 --> 03:22:44.000 intelligence in a way that you know, like we didn't. 3210 03:22:44.479 --> 03:22:46.680 So yeah, especially it was like more of these guys 3211 03:22:46.719 --> 03:22:49.239 than people think, you know, were thought. Yeah, it's a 3212 03:22:49.280 --> 03:22:56.639 fascinating topic. But Mattias Russ, but I mean what happened 3213 03:22:56.680 --> 03:23:00.719 became a him is rather tragic. He he was sent 3214 03:23:00.840 --> 03:23:02.719 up to four years at hard labor, but he was 3215 03:23:02.760 --> 03:23:04.920 actually never sent to a labor camp. He was housing 3216 03:23:05.000 --> 03:23:10.319 isolation in Moscow, and ultimately he was released and then 3217 03:23:10.440 --> 03:23:14.239 formally pardoned by Gramico when the I intermediately Nuclear Forces 3218 03:23:14.239 --> 03:23:16.479 Treaty was about to be signed as like a a 3219 03:23:16.559 --> 03:23:19.520 getric goodwill and he claimed he wasn't mistreated, and I 3220 03:23:19.559 --> 03:23:22.360 believe he wasn't beaten or anything, but there was something 3221 03:23:22.399 --> 03:23:24.399 it was like damaged about him. And he later went 3222 03:23:24.440 --> 03:23:27.639 to prison in Germany because he had a job in 3223 03:23:27.719 --> 03:23:29.639 some hospital and there was some girl that he had 3224 03:23:29.680 --> 03:23:32.120 like an unrequitted crush on, and he strayed just like 3225 03:23:32.200 --> 03:23:35.159 stabbed her. And this guy like no history of like violence, 3226 03:23:35.159 --> 03:23:36.920 I mean when I'm getting his in the Soviet Union 3227 03:23:36.959 --> 03:23:39.920 destroyed him like psychically, like whatever they did to him, 3228 03:23:40.079 --> 03:23:42.159 and he better believed that they didn't just treat him 3229 03:23:42.159 --> 03:23:47.399 like some kid pulling a prank. I mean, the then, 3230 03:23:48.639 --> 03:23:51.200 like I said, I'm not anti Russian at all or anything, 3231 03:23:51.239 --> 03:23:53.840 but there's there's a long history of guys who were 3232 03:23:54.319 --> 03:23:58.079 political prisoners of the Soviet Union and they somehow came 3233 03:23:58.120 --> 03:24:00.639 back like damaged or like not right, you know what 3234 03:24:00.639 --> 03:24:03.879 I mean. It's and you know there's I speculate the 3235 03:24:03.879 --> 03:24:06.959 same thing happened to him. And after that incident, apparently 3236 03:24:07.399 --> 03:24:10.079 he never got in trouble again, but he you know, 3237 03:24:10.159 --> 03:24:12.239 he seems to have had kind of like a sad life 3238 03:24:12.280 --> 03:24:14.639 after that. And you know, like I said, I as 3239 03:24:14.680 --> 03:24:17.559 a little kid and then later as somebody who spent 3240 03:24:17.879 --> 03:24:19.639 spends and spends a lot of time in the Cold War, 3241 03:24:20.479 --> 03:24:22.760 I I think roast in some ways. But he did 3242 03:24:22.760 --> 03:24:24.399 it was really a heroic I mean it was naive. 3243 03:24:24.719 --> 03:24:30.000 I mean, he's lucky he wasn't unceremoniously, you know, blown 3244 03:24:30.040 --> 03:24:33.719 out of the sky by a MiG driver or something. 3245 03:24:33.799 --> 03:24:37.520 But you know, I believe he was idealistic in the 3246 03:24:37.520 --> 03:24:39.879 way that kind of like last Cold War generation of 3247 03:24:39.920 --> 03:24:41.959 Germans was. And I think he really was like, look 3248 03:24:42.000 --> 03:24:43.719 like I don't I don't want to be a casually 3249 03:24:43.760 --> 03:24:47.719 a World War three as a counter value, you know, 3250 03:24:47.799 --> 03:24:51.319 as counter value ashes in the wind. And you know, 3251 03:24:51.360 --> 03:24:54.559 I I I've got love and respect to the Russian people, 3252 03:24:54.639 --> 03:24:57.239 and you know, like we should you know, we should, 3253 03:24:57.479 --> 03:24:59.680 we we should, you know, we should find a way 3254 03:24:59.680 --> 03:25:02.360 out of this paradigm that's going to destroy us. All 3255 03:25:02.399 --> 03:25:04.879 I found it like profound, as like an eleven twelve 3256 03:25:04.920 --> 03:25:06.360 year old kid, you know what I mean. Maybe it's 3257 03:25:06.360 --> 03:25:08.760 because I was a little kid. But I mean, Taine, 3258 03:25:08.799 --> 03:25:10.760 there was like something there and he wasn't just like 3259 03:25:10.799 --> 03:25:13.200 some crazy dude like I mean, he literally like learned 3260 03:25:13.200 --> 03:25:15.200 to fly like for this purpose, you know. I mean 3261 03:25:15.239 --> 03:25:17.840 it's he had it in mind that it could make it. 3262 03:25:18.120 --> 03:25:20.079 And frankly, I think it did. Man, you know like it, 3263 03:25:21.399 --> 03:25:22.840 you know, I guess, I mean you remember it was 3264 03:25:22.879 --> 03:25:26.920 a big deal. But the that but that, I mean 3265 03:25:26.959 --> 03:25:29.600 obviously the what it shows you too out like discrete 3266 03:25:29.639 --> 03:25:33.920 events that nobody is intending to have these reverberations. Like 3267 03:25:34.159 --> 03:25:38.360 literally like if Rust hadn't done that, I can easily see, uh, 3268 03:25:38.600 --> 03:25:41.040 I can easily see, Like you know, the USAOV loyalists 3269 03:25:41.040 --> 03:25:43.639 who were still in uniform is like saying, like, look 3270 03:25:43.719 --> 03:25:48.280 like Garbaschev is he's compromising our ability, you know, to 3271 03:25:48.399 --> 03:25:51.799 defend in depth. And you know, he's we cannot allow 3272 03:25:52.159 --> 03:25:54.479 the eye M treaty to be put the paper like 3273 03:25:54.559 --> 03:25:56.799 ten be put the paper and some kind of like 3274 03:25:57.799 --> 03:26:01.120 quasi military regime in the Soviet Union, you know, like 3275 03:26:01.360 --> 03:26:05.000 either like relegating gorbachoff to the role of cipher or 3276 03:26:05.079 --> 03:26:08.200 just like outright getting rid of him. I mean, it's 3277 03:26:08.200 --> 03:26:10.760 not like they weren't capable of that it like literally 3278 03:26:10.840 --> 03:26:15.319 like what Russ did that that that allowed Berbachov to 3279 03:26:14.840 --> 03:26:19.040 to decideline in sand bag like all of his enemies, 3280 03:26:20.079 --> 03:26:24.239 and I mean from then on at uh, it's it 3281 03:26:24.319 --> 03:26:26.719 really was his show until like you know that he 3282 03:26:26.840 --> 03:26:29.799 was until the challenge from Yelson was the emergent. But 3283 03:26:31.799 --> 03:26:34.799 that's what we should cover, uh next episode. And that 3284 03:26:34.799 --> 03:26:40.280 that's an incredibly complicated uh, like people who didn't weren't 3285 03:26:40.280 --> 03:26:42.959 alive then, but also even people who are pretty serious 3286 03:26:42.959 --> 03:26:47.440 students of the Soviet Union. The intrigues between Gorbachoff and 3287 03:26:47.520 --> 03:26:51.200 Yelts and and what Bush and Baker actually wanted, Like 3288 03:26:51.239 --> 03:26:53.600 Bush and Baker didn't want the Soviet Union to cease 3289 03:26:53.639 --> 03:26:58.520 to exist, like they wanted it to endure us. It's 3290 03:26:58.559 --> 03:27:01.360 kind of like is it kind of like federated a 3291 03:27:01.479 --> 03:27:04.879 like authoritary structure that it totally abolished, like the Party, 3292 03:27:05.479 --> 03:27:09.399 but uh, that was totally disarmed, and uh was kind 3293 03:27:09.399 --> 03:27:11.639 of like you know, accountable the United States as like 3294 03:27:11.719 --> 03:27:14.840 junior partner and like ruling the planet. It was basically 3295 03:27:14.879 --> 03:27:18.520 they wanted to like recreate like the New Dealer concept 3296 03:27:18.799 --> 03:27:21.479 for like how the world would be run and like 3297 03:27:21.520 --> 03:27:24.840 the tm D types who not only hated the Soviet 3298 03:27:24.920 --> 03:27:28.440 Union but literally wanted to see like torn apart, like 3299 03:27:28.520 --> 03:27:30.840 Yelton was their guy. And that's like what's key to 3300 03:27:30.959 --> 03:27:33.559 understanding this here, and that's why people have mixed feelings 3301 03:27:33.600 --> 03:27:37.719 about Yelson, I think. But it and then of course, 3302 03:27:37.799 --> 03:27:39.680 like the the kind of the kind of variable to 3303 03:27:39.680 --> 03:27:44.920 spoof things was that you know, all that the nationalities 3304 03:27:44.959 --> 03:27:48.719 like all went crazy, you know, and that's and and 3305 03:27:48.799 --> 03:27:51.319 that bears up too, like what the it goes It 3306 03:27:51.319 --> 03:27:53.920 shows you too, like when uh, you know, like what 3307 03:27:53.920 --> 03:27:56.319 what what what these fools they call the Chicken Kiev 3308 03:27:56.399 --> 03:27:58.799 speech where push forty one went to Ukraine is like 3309 03:27:58.840 --> 03:28:02.000 look like, don't like you're gonna be committing national suicide 3310 03:28:02.000 --> 03:28:04.079 if you decide you're gonna like fight the Russians, don't 3311 03:28:04.120 --> 03:28:07.360 do it, which of course is like absolutely true. That's 3312 03:28:07.399 --> 03:28:08.879 the idea of like you know, Boo was a pussy, 3313 03:28:09.040 --> 03:28:11.920 like how dear you like not back Ukraine in dependance 3314 03:28:12.120 --> 03:28:14.639 like what executive Ukrainians like exact of the Ukrainian has 3315 03:28:14.639 --> 03:28:16.520 gotten o a losing like a quarter million people, I'm 3316 03:28:16.600 --> 03:28:19.360 their country wrecked or like awesome things like ensuing from this. 3317 03:28:19.479 --> 03:28:21.639 I mean, it's not like whether you love hate or 3318 03:28:21.639 --> 03:28:25.120 a neutral in Ukraine. Like the idea that like Ukraine 3319 03:28:25.280 --> 03:28:28.120 like provoking a general war with Moscow was like this 3320 03:28:28.239 --> 03:28:30.399 good thing or like this like base thing, like it's 3321 03:28:30.520 --> 03:28:36.040 it's literally insane. But the uh, but I in my 3322 03:28:36.399 --> 03:28:43.159 before it became clear, like what America and it's in 3323 03:28:43.239 --> 03:28:46.520 geo affiliates and whatever you were doing in Ukraine. If 3324 03:28:46.520 --> 03:28:48.479 you're gonna tell, if you told me like twenty years ago, 3325 03:28:48.719 --> 03:28:50.879 like yeah, like you know, in twenty years like where 3326 03:28:50.920 --> 03:28:53.079 will where will like the Russian army like be engaged. 3327 03:28:53.079 --> 03:28:54.920 I'd be like in the Baltic, Like I see like 3328 03:28:54.959 --> 03:28:57.840 some kind of like really bloody you know, like asymmetrical 3329 03:28:58.079 --> 03:29:00.159 conflict of them like in the Baltic Like that That's 3330 03:29:00.159 --> 03:29:06.200 what I thought would happen. Honestly, I uh, it frankly 3331 03:29:06.239 --> 03:29:09.879 surprised me that like the Ukrainians were so incredibly rash. 3332 03:29:09.959 --> 03:29:16.159 But but that's that's the fact that Moss. That the 3333 03:29:16.200 --> 03:29:18.680 fact that Washington and uh kind of like the post 3334 03:29:18.719 --> 03:29:22.239 Reagan foreign policy team, they wanted both the Soviet Union 3335 03:29:22.239 --> 03:29:25.760 and Yugoslavia to endure, like you know, they this this 3336 03:29:25.760 --> 03:29:29.000 this kind of policy of you know, let's try and 3337 03:29:29.079 --> 03:29:32.440 detonate like every federated structure that exists, so then we 3338 03:29:32.440 --> 03:29:35.319 can kind of like finesse them into into like these 3339 03:29:35.159 --> 03:29:38.799 these like like fake client regimes. That's like very much 3340 03:29:38.840 --> 03:29:41.200 like a post Busch kind of thing. And like I'm 3341 03:29:41.200 --> 03:29:43.399 not saying Bush forty one had like these great ideas. 3342 03:29:43.559 --> 03:29:46.000 I think it was the last serious president, but uh, 3343 03:29:46.319 --> 03:29:48.920 I'm not saying like his KNNA, it's kind of his 3344 03:29:48.959 --> 03:29:50.680 kind of vision of like a neo like New Deal 3345 03:29:50.799 --> 03:29:52.559 was like some kind of like good thing, but there's 3346 03:29:52.559 --> 03:29:54.719 like an internal logic to it that like makes sense 3347 03:29:54.719 --> 03:29:56.920 and is like sustainable in a way that like the 3348 03:29:56.920 --> 03:30:02.000 competing perspective like was not and is not. But I 3349 03:30:02.079 --> 03:30:04.000 don't want to Uh I don't. I don't want to 3350 03:30:04.040 --> 03:30:06.440 deep dive into that yet because that that that's going 3351 03:30:06.479 --> 03:30:08.200 to take like an hour or an hour and a half. 3352 03:30:08.319 --> 03:30:11.680 So that's uh, that's basically I got for today. I 3353 03:30:11.680 --> 03:30:12.319 want to go. 3354 03:30:12.879 --> 03:30:13.559 Let's let's talk. 3355 03:30:13.639 --> 03:30:16.040 Let's talk a little bit about the eighties because yeah, 3356 03:30:16.079 --> 03:30:19.159 of course I remember it, and it was a weird, 3357 03:30:19.479 --> 03:30:24.360 weird time it was. It was okay, so like New 3358 03:30:24.479 --> 03:30:29.200 York was one of the murder I mean, murder, murder, murder, 3359 03:30:29.440 --> 03:30:30.040 I assumed that. 3360 03:30:30.520 --> 03:30:32.639 There were two thousand homicides a year like that. That's 3361 03:30:32.719 --> 03:30:33.479 wartime attrition. 3362 03:30:34.040 --> 03:30:37.639 Yeah, I'm sure Chicago. I'm sure southside of Chicago is 3363 03:30:37.680 --> 03:30:38.600 the same way at the time. 3364 03:30:39.840 --> 03:30:42.639 And but yeah, yeah. 3365 03:30:42.200 --> 03:30:45.440 But yet you had a great amount of abundance, You 3366 03:30:45.479 --> 03:30:47.280 had a lot of people getting rich, a lot of 3367 03:30:47.280 --> 03:30:50.280 people getting wealthy, and then you still had this like 3368 03:30:51.520 --> 03:30:57.000 nuclear shadow that was always overhead. It was it was 3369 03:30:57.040 --> 03:31:00.239 like a time when people were really a lot of 3370 03:31:00.239 --> 03:31:02.959 people were really having fun, but there was always this 3371 03:31:03.159 --> 03:31:04.959 cloud hanging over Well. 3372 03:31:04.959 --> 03:31:07.040 I tink people understand either, and I tried to explain 3373 03:31:07.040 --> 03:31:10.520 it to people. My earliest memories would were being like 3374 03:31:10.559 --> 03:31:13.000 afraid of the Soviet Union, you know what I mean. 3375 03:31:13.000 --> 03:31:16.600 I lived I lived literally three miles from Glenview Naval 3376 03:31:16.680 --> 03:31:20.399 Air Station, which is like a priority counter worse target, 3377 03:31:20.959 --> 03:31:22.879 like we would have just there was no chance we 3378 03:31:22.920 --> 03:31:26.680 would have survived, you know. And it uh and I 3379 03:31:26.680 --> 03:31:29.079 mean especially because like my dad was like insinuated into 3380 03:31:29.120 --> 03:31:32.920 like you know, like the the policy planning establishment. I 3381 03:31:32.959 --> 03:31:35.000 mean I realized, like the Cold War was like talked 3382 03:31:35.000 --> 03:31:37.319 about in my house one than other people's, Like everybody 3383 03:31:37.440 --> 03:31:41.280 was like that. And like when those stupid emergency broadcasing 3384 03:31:41.319 --> 03:31:44.200 system tested come on, Like my mom would jump, and 3385 03:31:44.280 --> 03:31:47.239 like everybody would, you know, because it's like the people 3386 03:31:47.280 --> 03:31:49.360 don't they don't understand that. That's why I get pissed off. 3387 03:31:49.360 --> 03:31:51.520 And people talk about like the COVID garbage, even like 3388 03:31:51.520 --> 03:31:53.559 a nine to eleven, you know, it's like there's nothing 3389 03:31:53.600 --> 03:31:56.040 comparable like what would have been like a general warsaw pack, 3390 03:31:56.120 --> 03:32:00.159 like nuclear salt the United States like mad bullshit, like 3391 03:32:00.200 --> 03:32:03.200 Carl SIGs nuclear winners bullshit. But it would have changed 3392 03:32:03.239 --> 03:32:05.440 like life as everybody knows it. You know, there would 3393 03:32:05.440 --> 03:32:08.799 have been one hundred million people dead, Huge swaths of 3394 03:32:08.799 --> 03:32:11.239 the country would have been like unlivable. The survivors would 3395 03:32:11.280 --> 03:32:14.479 all migrated towards the equator, So you're basically gonna have 3396 03:32:14.600 --> 03:32:17.479 this Like it'd be kind of like a giant Wild 3397 03:32:17.520 --> 03:32:20.040 West with a poison environment that was like America, like 3398 03:32:20.079 --> 03:32:23.280 no shit, and like just the fact that it'd be 3399 03:32:23.440 --> 03:32:25.559 like again, it'd be like world transform. You can't kill 3400 03:32:25.639 --> 03:32:28.719 tens of millions of people within hours and not like 3401 03:32:28.799 --> 03:32:32.120 have everything change, you know, And the fact that this 3402 03:32:32.280 --> 03:32:35.360 was always a possibility, and especially as human decision makers 3403 03:32:35.360 --> 03:32:38.040 become increasingly sidelined, you know, it became clearly like this 3404 03:32:38.200 --> 03:32:41.159 this could happen without even anybody intending to, just because 3405 03:32:41.159 --> 03:32:43.399 the trajectory of variables is such that like it has 3406 03:32:43.440 --> 03:32:48.040 to happen according to you know, the indicators. Yeah, it was. Uh, 3407 03:32:48.680 --> 03:32:51.040 it was. It was like night and day. And I 3408 03:32:51.040 --> 03:32:52.719 I think that some of the some of them, like 3409 03:32:52.760 --> 03:32:55.479 the murder rate becoming totally lit for like a whole generation, 3410 03:32:55.920 --> 03:32:58.280 and people it's like acting kind of crazy, Like I 3411 03:32:58.280 --> 03:33:00.559 think part of that that. I think part of it 3412 03:33:00.600 --> 03:33:02.719 was people are like, well there might this might not 3413 03:33:02.799 --> 03:33:06.440 exist tomorrow, you know, so like why why not? I 3414 03:33:06.440 --> 03:33:08.520 mean it made people more ballsy definitely, But it was 3415 03:33:08.559 --> 03:33:14.559 also like, uh, you know, there's there was an aspect 3416 03:33:14.559 --> 03:33:16.760 of like, you know, the apocalypse is like imminent, so 3417 03:33:16.959 --> 03:33:20.840 like who gives a fuck? And uh the uh yeah 3418 03:33:20.879 --> 03:33:22.479 it was. It was weird, man, And like and the 3419 03:33:22.479 --> 03:33:25.639 immediate Aftermaen is weird, you know, like I. 3420 03:33:24.959 --> 03:33:26.520 Well, yeah then I was going to bring that up. 3421 03:33:26.559 --> 03:33:26.680 Man. 3422 03:33:26.719 --> 03:33:30.159 The nineties is like, so the Soviet Union falls apart 3423 03:33:30.200 --> 03:33:32.879 officially and then all of a sudden New York City 3424 03:33:32.920 --> 03:33:38.719 gets cleaned up. Yeah, like the home the crime rate drops, 3425 03:33:39.120 --> 03:33:43.159 homeless people are being bust out forty second Street is 3426 03:33:43.200 --> 03:33:47.000 brought up by Disney. Basically, it's like it's a real 3427 03:33:47.120 --> 03:33:49.479 weird correlation this shit like that happened. 3428 03:33:51.319 --> 03:33:53.040 Well, yeah, that's one of the reason. I mean, it's 3429 03:33:53.040 --> 03:33:54.520 one the reason I'm very much like a Hey Gaelien, 3430 03:33:55.200 --> 03:33:56.920 It's all. That's also the reason why like the early 3431 03:33:57.000 --> 03:33:59.200 nineties were like anarchy, you know, and then so many 3432 03:33:59.200 --> 03:34:02.200 shit stabilized that just like became like normal again, like 3433 03:34:02.200 --> 03:34:05.040 to your point around like ninety six, like ninety five, 3434 03:34:05.120 --> 03:34:08.040 ninety six, but like that movie Kids, you know, because 3435 03:34:08.040 --> 03:34:10.319 I'm more I was born in seventy six, so I'm 3436 03:34:10.440 --> 03:34:12.319 you know, I'm like, I'm looking at nineties dude, more 3437 03:34:12.360 --> 03:34:13.799 than an eighties war. It's like I was, I grew 3438 03:34:13.879 --> 03:34:15.120 up in the eighties, but I was like a teen 3439 03:34:15.159 --> 03:34:17.440 in like the nineties, and like people like kids are 3440 03:34:17.440 --> 03:34:19.159 just like, oh, there's just like pornographic and grow So 3441 03:34:19.159 --> 03:34:21.239 I'm like, yeah, it's both those things. But it's also 3442 03:34:21.319 --> 03:34:23.879 like on the street in nineteen ninety three, that's like 3443 03:34:23.920 --> 03:34:26.639 what shit was like, and like anywhere you went, like 3444 03:34:26.680 --> 03:34:29.760 everybody had chip on his shoulder, like like every idiot 3445 03:34:29.760 --> 03:34:32.239 and his brother was like gangbanging for like no reason. 3446 03:34:32.360 --> 03:34:33.840 It's not like now we're just like hood dude to 3447 03:34:33.840 --> 03:34:35.479 do it because like they sell drugs. It's like every 3448 03:34:35.520 --> 03:34:38.399 idiot was like, yeah, I like wrap this like nonsense 3449 03:34:38.479 --> 03:34:41.079 gang and oh like I I got like a gun. 3450 03:34:41.159 --> 03:34:42.840 I packed with me for like no reason, just because 3451 03:34:42.840 --> 03:34:45.120 I'm like a fucked up asshole. Like that literally was 3452 03:34:45.120 --> 03:34:48.159 like the way shit was and like uh you know, 3453 03:34:49.120 --> 03:34:51.959 and like all there was like yeah, man, there's this 3454 03:34:52.360 --> 03:34:54.840 like like the races like fucking hated each other and 3455 03:34:54.959 --> 03:34:58.159 like it's you know, yeah man, and it's like so 3456 03:34:58.440 --> 03:35:00.879 like that movie. Yeah, it's like okay, maybe like Larry 3457 03:35:01.399 --> 03:35:03.000 Larry Clark, I think he is the dude who made 3458 03:35:03.000 --> 03:35:05.079 that movie. It's like maybe that dude is a pervert 3459 03:35:05.159 --> 03:35:07.200 and like a sick fuck but like what he was 3460 03:35:07.239 --> 03:35:10.000 like portraying was not like in his mind, like that 3461 03:35:10.040 --> 03:35:12.239 ship was real and I I was a teenager in 3462 03:35:12.319 --> 03:35:15.120 that epoch. It was like that, you know, like uh 3463 03:35:15.760 --> 03:35:19.559 and I mean this particularly made an impact on me, 3464 03:35:19.920 --> 03:35:23.600 like psychologically because it's like I you know, I'm i'm 3465 03:35:23.440 --> 03:35:26.079 I'm I'm I'm just fun people think. Man. It's by 3466 03:35:26.120 --> 03:35:27.799 the fact like I've had like you know, I had 3467 03:35:27.840 --> 03:35:29.840 like a heavy fucking drug prof and shit, I'm a 3468 03:35:29.879 --> 03:35:32.000 pretty like square, like fucking white dude. Man, Like I'm 3469 03:35:32.000 --> 03:35:35.159 not I'm not into I'm not into like fucking savage shit, 3470 03:35:35.760 --> 03:35:38.280 and like that stuff like bothered me like as a kid. 3471 03:35:38.319 --> 03:35:40.520 It's like it seemed like everybody lost the fucking mind, 3472 03:35:40.680 --> 03:35:45.120 like totally, you know, and like a yeah, but yeah, no, 3473 03:35:45.159 --> 03:35:47.440 that's that's I mean again, man, that's why there's something 3474 03:35:47.479 --> 03:35:50.120 too like zeitgeist, not just like the random aggregation of 3475 03:35:50.200 --> 03:35:53.879 like pop cultural like symbols and the people's kind of 3476 03:35:53.920 --> 03:35:57.600 like uh, you know, the discrete experiences and aggregate or 3477 03:35:57.680 --> 03:35:59.959 like you know, of of of of the youthful generation 3478 03:36:00.079 --> 03:36:02.319 in and kind of like what they associate with the 3479 03:36:02.360 --> 03:36:04.639 times that they're growing up in. Like it's a real thing. 3480 03:36:04.680 --> 03:36:07.040 It really is like a spirit of the age. And yeah, 3481 03:36:07.079 --> 03:36:09.719 like why I was like every haalking for like thirty years. 3482 03:36:09.719 --> 03:36:12.360 Everybody was going totally insane and then suddenly like the 3483 03:36:12.719 --> 03:36:16.559 nuclear specter like disappears, and then like you know, there's 3484 03:36:16.600 --> 03:36:18.879 like three years or four years of total chaos and 3485 03:36:18.879 --> 03:36:21.520 then like suddenly everything's like normally in you know. Yeah, 3486 03:36:21.639 --> 03:36:23.760 and like in forty second Street goes from being this 3487 03:36:24.040 --> 03:36:25.799 like looking like a nice circle of hell to be 3488 03:36:25.840 --> 03:36:28.559 in like Disneyland, like literally like yeah, you can't just 3489 03:36:28.600 --> 03:36:30.520 say like, oh, well, that's because people got tired of 3490 03:36:30.559 --> 03:36:34.319 crawing for something. It's like it's not how I'm not 3491 03:36:34.319 --> 03:36:36.120 saying you gotta believe in God. Okay, fine, you think 3492 03:36:36.159 --> 03:36:38.479 God out of the equation, But there is like some 3493 03:36:38.600 --> 03:36:40.840 kind of like invisible hand, like even if it's just 3494 03:36:40.879 --> 03:36:44.000 like human decisions and arrogate developing some kind of harmonious 3495 03:36:44.120 --> 03:36:47.159 like you know, in intent or like vector that you 3496 03:36:47.159 --> 03:36:49.680 can't tell me. There's just like random shit that happens 3497 03:36:49.680 --> 03:36:52.200 for no reason, you know, yeah, definitely. 3498 03:36:51.879 --> 03:36:56.120 Yeah, all right, man, plug whatever you got. 3499 03:36:56.760 --> 03:37:00.760 Yeah, man, I'm still Uh. I dropped on my t 3500 03:37:00.920 --> 03:37:02.799 gram the other day. You can find me on t Gram. 3501 03:37:02.799 --> 03:37:05.600 I think people are like, no, why no, I'm I'm 3502 03:37:05.600 --> 03:37:07.559 trying to get stuff done in earnest and just so 3503 03:37:07.639 --> 03:37:09.319 I gonna like shoot for my channel and I didn't 3504 03:37:09.319 --> 03:37:14.200 get a capacity, but I I'm gonna swamp with like 3505 03:37:14.680 --> 03:37:17.399 content work and other stuff lately. But I promise that's 3506 03:37:17.399 --> 03:37:19.639 why I haven't been really active with stuff. But I 3507 03:37:19.719 --> 03:37:22.840 promise that it's changing. You can still find me on Twitter. 3508 03:37:23.000 --> 03:37:24.760 I don't know I could be nukelere at any time. 3509 03:37:24.840 --> 03:37:27.040 And also as we get into the summertime, I'm gonna 3510 03:37:27.040 --> 03:37:28.680 like disengage there and just kind of like fuck with 3511 03:37:28.719 --> 03:37:33.079 my own website and my channel. But you can find 3512 03:37:33.079 --> 03:37:37.680 me there for now at like real underscore number seven 3513 03:37:37.840 --> 03:37:41.079 each one as seven seven seven. My primary home is 3514 03:37:41.120 --> 03:37:46.239 substack real Thomas seven seven seven dot substack dot com, 3515 03:37:46.680 --> 03:37:51.000 and uh my channel is Thomas TV on YouTube. We're 3516 03:37:51.000 --> 03:37:53.760 gonna saturate when I started uploading like fresh shit there 3517 03:37:54.239 --> 03:37:56.399 on like Odyssey and stuff. But for right now, like 3518 03:37:56.840 --> 03:37:59.920 if you join the channel on YouTube, like you'll be hipped, 3519 03:38:00.079 --> 03:38:02.680 would you know when like new stuff is uploaded there 3520 03:38:02.719 --> 03:38:05.559 and like when we kind of you know, migrate to 3521 03:38:05.600 --> 03:38:08.000 other places. But that's all I got, And thanks for 3522 03:38:08.040 --> 03:38:09.600 hosting me as always, this has been great. 3523 03:38:09.959 --> 03:38:11.639 I appreciate it. Thank you, Tom's. 3524 03:38:13.399 --> 03:38:15.799 I want to welcome everyone back to the Pea Show. 3525 03:38:16.799 --> 03:38:19.079 We're almost done with this, aren't we, Thomas the Cold 3526 03:38:19.120 --> 03:38:19.719 War series? 3527 03:38:21.159 --> 03:38:25.319 Yeah yeah, and yeah no, indeed, it's it's been quite 3528 03:38:25.319 --> 03:38:29.040 a journey and we've gotten really really positive feedback, which 3529 03:38:29.079 --> 03:38:34.360 is great, not you know, because I need things to 3530 03:38:34.680 --> 03:38:38.000 prop up my ego or something, but there's a you know, everybody, 3531 03:38:38.799 --> 03:38:42.680 at least even people who aren't particularly plugged into revisionist history, 3532 03:38:42.760 --> 03:38:44.280 you know, they have an interest in World War Two 3533 03:38:44.319 --> 03:38:49.799 because it's just you know, the kind of symbology of 3534 03:38:49.840 --> 03:38:52.040 it and kind of the narrative of it is all 3535 03:38:52.079 --> 03:38:55.799 around everybody. Like the Cold War, like people under people 3536 03:38:55.879 --> 03:39:00.760 under about forty they don't. I think that's change somewhat 3537 03:39:00.799 --> 03:39:02.959 like actually like Corneas, it sounds like one of the 3538 03:39:02.959 --> 03:39:08.680 Call of Duty games was like special Work. I never 3539 03:39:08.719 --> 03:39:10.399 played it, but I thought that was dope that some 3540 03:39:10.440 --> 03:39:13.360 of these some of these game developer types, uh you know, 3541 03:39:13.479 --> 03:39:15.680 they were they were trying to like plug people into 3542 03:39:16.200 --> 03:39:19.520 the history of of the era, like with with you know, 3543 03:39:19.559 --> 03:39:24.399 those kinds of sims. But you know, the if you 3544 03:39:24.399 --> 03:39:26.559 want to like literally, if you want to understand everything 3545 03:39:26.559 --> 03:39:28.680 that's happening in power political terms today, like you've got 3546 03:39:28.719 --> 03:39:31.440 to understand of the Cold War result, you know, And 3547 03:39:31.840 --> 03:39:34.639 it's I think it's particularly if you identify his right wing. 3548 03:39:34.760 --> 03:39:39.840 It's particularly impactful in terms of you know, uh, where 3549 03:39:39.840 --> 03:39:42.799 we are conceptually and before we went live, like you 3550 03:39:42.799 --> 03:39:46.280 know you're talking about you mentioned Paul Gotfreid. Well, yeah, 3551 03:39:46.280 --> 03:39:48.079 I mean it's hard. It's hard as hell to find now, 3552 03:39:48.600 --> 03:39:52.000 which I think is very deliberate. But Godfred gave a 3553 03:39:52.040 --> 03:39:55.639 talk I think it was at I think it was 3554 03:39:55.680 --> 03:39:58.440 at the h. L. Mancoln Club. I don't even know 3555 03:39:58.479 --> 03:40:01.440 if that's still a thing, but uh, and his talk 3556 03:40:01.559 --> 03:40:04.440 was called how the Left won the Cold War? And 3557 03:40:04.479 --> 03:40:08.600 it was really fascinating, and uh, you know, and and 3558 03:40:08.600 --> 03:40:11.479 and and again. That's why even if when it is, 3559 03:40:11.799 --> 03:40:16.479 even if one's not ideologically situated in the same kind 3560 03:40:16.479 --> 03:40:19.840 of camp that I you know, Visa via the Cold 3561 03:40:19.879 --> 03:40:22.920 War and Francis Yaki and and that kind of hy 3562 03:40:22.959 --> 03:40:26.799 Gaelian view of things, you know, it's it's fun of 3563 03:40:26.840 --> 03:40:29.319 me if you want to understand why blood is being 3564 03:40:29.360 --> 03:40:32.559 shed in in Ukraine and on the Russian frontier today, 3565 03:40:32.680 --> 03:40:35.239 like you've got to understand what what developed between ninety 3566 03:40:35.280 --> 03:40:38.280 forty nine nineteen eighty nine, particularly how it resolved. So 3567 03:40:38.360 --> 03:40:42.239 the fact we've gotten like mad feedback is I it 3568 03:40:42.319 --> 03:40:46.760 is very inspiring. I feel like we're actually doing something constructive. Yeah. 3569 03:40:46.760 --> 03:40:49.000 I think we get more feedback on this one than 3570 03:40:49.000 --> 03:40:50.440 we did did a World War two. 3571 03:40:50.920 --> 03:40:54.959 Yeah. Yeah, and that that I'm very excited about that. And yeah, 3572 03:40:55.120 --> 03:40:59.879 moving forward. Uh I uh, your idea to cover the 3573 03:41:00.040 --> 03:41:02.520 Spanish War is great and I'm really looking forward to 3574 03:41:02.520 --> 03:41:08.120 that too. But yeah, we can what I wanted to 3575 03:41:08.120 --> 03:41:10.399 get into today a bit. And forgive me if this 3576 03:41:10.479 --> 03:41:12.159 talk is a little bit it seems a little bit 3577 03:41:12.120 --> 03:41:16.920 scatter shut. There's a lot of discrete causes to what 3578 03:41:17.040 --> 03:41:20.840 caused what you know, caused the Inner German border to 3579 03:41:20.879 --> 03:41:23.840 literally just come apart, you know, November nine, nineteen eighty nine. 3580 03:41:24.879 --> 03:41:27.920 Some of those causes were laid you know, around nineteen 3581 03:41:27.920 --> 03:41:31.000 eighty eighty one when martial law is declared in Poland 3582 03:41:31.639 --> 03:41:35.559 and the Soviet response to that, or more probably the 3583 03:41:35.639 --> 03:41:38.959 lack of a Soviet response to that. Part of that 3584 03:41:39.000 --> 03:41:42.719 was kind of the bizarre nature of the d DR government. 3585 03:41:42.879 --> 03:41:46.959 The East German government was not at all organic it 3586 03:41:47.840 --> 03:41:51.000 you know, East Germany itself. It was literally a fake state. 3587 03:41:51.280 --> 03:41:53.319 Like there's no it's not even like the case of 3588 03:41:53.319 --> 03:41:56.000 like North Korea, where like Northern Korea is like is 3589 03:41:56.040 --> 03:41:59.000 culturally different in South Korea in some ways. You know, 3590 03:41:59.040 --> 03:42:02.360 they got a history of being you know, divided divided 3591 03:42:02.479 --> 03:42:05.719 kingdom like East Germany was literally the border was where 3592 03:42:05.719 --> 03:42:08.639 the Red Army just arbitrarily stopped, you know. I mean, 3593 03:42:08.719 --> 03:42:10.280 so it's you have this completely you have this like 3594 03:42:10.399 --> 03:42:14.479 rump state that you know isn't isn't precedent in terms 3595 03:42:14.479 --> 03:42:17.600 of it's in terms of the geograhic situated in this. 3596 03:42:18.280 --> 03:42:21.440 And people forget too that, you know, the guys who 3597 03:42:21.440 --> 03:42:25.959 became the d DR government. There was some genuine like 3598 03:42:26.040 --> 03:42:29.120 pipe hitterers like Eric Milk who literally wasted a cop 3599 03:42:29.159 --> 03:42:31.639 in Weimar and then he ran to this He ran 3600 03:42:31.719 --> 03:42:34.479 to Moscow because uh, you know he was a KPD 3601 03:42:34.639 --> 03:42:38.799 street fighter and uh then and and and the NKVD 3602 03:42:38.920 --> 03:42:42.559 trusted him, you know, uh, and uh you know, he 3603 03:42:42.639 --> 03:42:45.479 kind of became their man. Speaking of Spain, Eric Milk, 3604 03:42:45.479 --> 03:42:47.440 it kind of became their man in Spain. He was 3605 03:42:47.479 --> 03:42:50.399 like a commissar, you know, like fighting uh on the 3606 03:42:50.479 --> 03:42:55.719 Republican side. Guys like Eric Honecker, he somehow escaped execution 3607 03:42:55.959 --> 03:42:59.680 despite being uh you know, uh a pretty high level 3608 03:42:59.680 --> 03:43:05.079 functionary or cadre and the KPD organization. But he was 3609 03:43:05.120 --> 03:43:10.000 in prison, you know by uh for the duration of 3610 03:43:10.040 --> 03:43:14.120 the war. And some people think that he was a 3611 03:43:14.159 --> 03:43:16.399 double agent. And then he was like he'd fed intel 3612 03:43:16.479 --> 03:43:19.559 to to the Gestapo on the s D which I 3613 03:43:19.559 --> 03:43:22.799 don't know that it's possible. And then there was Walter Ubrick, 3614 03:43:22.840 --> 03:43:25.319 who was kind of this dour intellectual you know, kind 3615 03:43:25.319 --> 03:43:31.040 of humorless uh you know, cold cold hearted, uh, kind 3616 03:43:31.040 --> 03:43:36.600 of functionary, the most cliche or stereotypical sort, you know 3617 03:43:36.639 --> 03:43:38.360 he was. He was another guy who spent you know, 3618 03:43:38.600 --> 03:43:43.479 time in exile like after after the National Socialist Revolution. 3619 03:43:43.799 --> 03:43:46.360 It's like all these guys were there were this cadre 3620 03:43:46.440 --> 03:43:49.719 element that was at odds literally with their fatherland, like 3621 03:43:49.760 --> 03:43:52.120 whether whether in NI phase or not. The point is like, 3622 03:43:52.239 --> 03:43:54.200 these are the guys who will like get odds with 3623 03:43:54.600 --> 03:43:59.879 Germany like their own you know, cultural uh a little. 3624 03:44:01.520 --> 03:44:04.559 You know. They spent they spent the warriors either literally 3625 03:44:04.600 --> 03:44:08.399 like fighting with the Red Army or in exile in Moscow. 3626 03:44:08.799 --> 03:44:13.040 And then you know, when the dust settled in nineteen 3627 03:44:13.120 --> 03:44:17.360 forty five, they were literally just like insinuated into this role. 3628 03:44:17.440 --> 03:44:19.920 It's like okay, you know, like you're you're now like 3629 03:44:19.959 --> 03:44:23.159 the cadre of the German Democratic Republic. You know, these 3630 03:44:23.200 --> 03:44:25.159 and who people like, who the hell are these guys? 3631 03:44:25.200 --> 03:44:28.680 You know, it's not the only way they the only 3632 03:44:28.760 --> 03:44:34.040 the only mandate they had was uh you know, proceeded 3633 03:44:34.040 --> 03:44:40.959 from the barrel of Soviet guns, and UH, over time, 3634 03:44:41.840 --> 03:44:46.040 UH a kind of party state apparatus did develop in 3635 03:44:46.079 --> 03:44:49.600 the d DR, particularly like the National volks Army, which 3636 03:44:49.639 --> 03:44:52.319 was officer in NCO heavy compared to a NATO army, 3637 03:44:52.680 --> 03:44:54.399 And that was very deliberate because he had a bunch 3638 03:44:54.399 --> 03:44:58.959 of military career as who's you know, fortunes were inextrict, 3639 03:44:59.120 --> 03:45:03.479 like personal force, They're inextriguarly tethered to the survival and prosperity, 3640 03:45:03.520 --> 03:45:06.040 if we can call it that of the regime. You know, 3641 03:45:06.079 --> 03:45:10.040 in any any government that endures for decades, no matter 3642 03:45:10.040 --> 03:45:13.799 how kind of contrived or unpopular it is, you know, 3643 03:45:14.040 --> 03:45:16.360 if people are going to become just habituated to it, 3644 03:45:16.440 --> 03:45:19.159 and you know, the people's fortunes are going to become 3645 03:45:19.440 --> 03:45:21.639 bound up with it in various ways. So, I mean, 3646 03:45:21.719 --> 03:45:24.799 that did happen, but it was about the most like 3647 03:45:24.920 --> 03:45:27.639 artificial of artividual states, which is one of the things 3648 03:45:27.680 --> 03:45:30.760 one of the reasons I'm always kind of tongue in 3649 03:45:30.840 --> 03:45:34.239 cheeks saying, you know, like East Germany, he was best Germany. 3650 03:45:34.799 --> 03:45:37.040 I mean, you know, the d D are the reason 3651 03:45:37.120 --> 03:45:39.639 why they did the National Volks Army, you know, their 3652 03:45:39.719 --> 03:45:45.719 uniforms look like Rmack uniforms. They maintained some very into 3653 03:45:45.719 --> 03:45:48.680 the Prussian drill in the parade ground. You know, they 3654 03:45:49.079 --> 03:45:51.479 a lot of their their kind of mythology they drew 3655 03:45:51.559 --> 03:45:54.440 upon like Florian Geyer in the Peasants War. You know, 3656 03:45:54.520 --> 03:45:57.239 they they kept a lot of like you know, they 3657 03:45:57.280 --> 03:45:59.399 got a lot of the optics and kind of at 3658 03:45:59.479 --> 03:46:02.799 least super visial trappings the of Prussian statehood, which is 3659 03:46:02.840 --> 03:46:05.280 really the first kind of like modern welfare state. You know, 3660 03:46:05.319 --> 03:46:08.360 that's not they can't be denied. But the point is 3661 03:46:09.000 --> 03:46:10.559 the d d R is kind of cant They they're 3662 03:46:10.639 --> 03:46:13.719 kind of like hyper aware of like your tenuous claim 3663 03:46:14.200 --> 03:46:18.959 to the mantle of power and them kind of insinuating 3664 03:46:19.000 --> 03:46:23.159 themselves into this role ironically and and and somewhat perversely. 3665 03:46:23.319 --> 03:46:26.479 But if if you're a Gelien, that this makes perfect sense. 3666 03:46:26.879 --> 03:46:29.120 Them kind of cinema themselves as like the guardian of 3667 03:46:29.159 --> 03:46:32.479 like what remained of like you know, the like authentic 3668 03:46:32.520 --> 03:46:37.920 German culture. That's really interesting and that I think I 3669 03:46:37.959 --> 03:46:40.520 think people responded to that too in some basic way. 3670 03:46:40.600 --> 03:46:43.319 That's why, in like the decades after the Wall came down, 3671 03:46:44.200 --> 03:46:48.520 I think East Germans themselves like ostalgy. You know, it's 3672 03:46:48.520 --> 03:46:52.799 like a play on like nostalgia. You know, they that 3673 03:46:52.799 --> 03:46:55.840 that's that's you know, kind of a media term that's bandied, 3674 03:46:56.319 --> 03:46:58.040 you know about people who grew up in the East 3675 03:46:58.079 --> 03:47:00.520 to uh, you know, who's still pining for products you 3676 03:47:00.600 --> 03:47:02.600 can't find anymore and kind of like what life was 3677 03:47:03.959 --> 03:47:06.280 in that era. And you know, I made the point too, 3678 03:47:06.520 --> 03:47:09.879 like uh Proud Miracle, it's not an accident that she 3679 03:47:09.920 --> 03:47:13.879 came up through the d DR, you know. And interestingly, 3680 03:47:14.040 --> 03:47:17.479 is a law I see any any German politician you 3681 03:47:17.520 --> 03:47:21.479 know who uh who who who who is a citizen 3682 03:47:21.520 --> 03:47:23.799 of the d d R. It's literally against the law 3683 03:47:23.920 --> 03:47:26.719 to talk about their past, like in East Germany. So 3684 03:47:26.959 --> 03:47:29.639 it's it was a criminal offense. And when prow Miracle 3685 03:47:29.760 --> 03:47:32.760 was a chancellor to talk about her background, a lot 3686 03:47:32.760 --> 03:47:36.479 of people allege that she was a Stazi asset, which 3687 03:47:36.520 --> 03:47:39.760 is possible. She was a young pioneer, so I mean 3688 03:47:39.840 --> 03:47:42.639 she her folks were like Communist party people or so 3689 03:47:42.840 --> 03:47:45.600 that souls that there was no Communist party in the 3690 03:47:45.680 --> 03:47:49.040 DDR as the Socialist Unity Party. But it uh, but 3691 03:47:49.120 --> 03:47:51.159 the point being, I mean it wasn't she wasn't just 3692 03:47:51.360 --> 03:47:54.479 you know, she wasn't like an apolitical you know, like 3693 03:47:54.520 --> 03:47:59.079 her family was at least like regime loyal and so 3694 03:47:59.200 --> 03:48:05.239 far as already membership. But that miracles concord with with 3695 03:48:05.319 --> 03:48:11.360 mister Putin, you know, and uh, the the the gas 3696 03:48:11.399 --> 03:48:13.879 Prom deal which which led to the nord Stream pipeline, 3697 03:48:14.360 --> 03:48:17.159 all these things like oh to, like the Cold War, okay, 3698 03:48:17.200 --> 03:48:19.639 and like they oh to like you know, what the 3699 03:48:19.719 --> 03:48:23.000 d DR was and what the inner German border represented 3700 03:48:23.079 --> 03:48:26.600 in like power political and you know, in in his 3701 03:48:26.680 --> 03:48:30.200 story of graphical terms, you know, this stuff isn't just 3702 03:48:30.479 --> 03:48:32.959 you know, it's it's not it's not just like trivia 3703 03:48:33.000 --> 03:48:38.079 about you know, a strategic paradigm that's no longer extant. 3704 03:48:38.239 --> 03:48:42.719 But you know, last uh, last episode, we got into 3705 03:48:43.040 --> 03:48:45.879 you know, the kind of thaw, the Gorbachev thaw that 3706 03:48:46.959 --> 03:48:50.559 was made possible in large part by Matthias Roost's flight. 3707 03:48:51.840 --> 03:48:54.760 But before that, you know, we talked about, uh we 3708 03:48:54.920 --> 03:48:58.719 we talked about the NATO Dual Track uh strategy, which 3709 03:48:58.799 --> 03:49:05.079 ultimately led to the Intermediate Nuclear Forces Treaty and why 3710 03:49:05.120 --> 03:49:10.040 this was a big deal. The Soviet Union and drop 3711 03:49:10.120 --> 03:49:14.639 off had been very aggressively trying to decopple you know, 3712 03:49:14.760 --> 03:49:17.920 Europe from the United States in terms of a strategic 3713 03:49:18.000 --> 03:49:24.879 doctrine and it's it's willingness to wage nuclear war against 3714 03:49:24.920 --> 03:49:28.440 Warsaw Pact. And the way they did this was, you know, 3715 03:49:28.479 --> 03:49:33.399 with the deployment of SS nineteen, S S twenty ICBM 3716 03:49:33.520 --> 03:49:41.239 and theater ballistic missile platforms and in Europe as as 3717 03:49:41.280 --> 03:49:43.680 the point of the Backfire Bomber, which was a maritime 3718 03:49:43.760 --> 03:49:48.799 nuclear bomber like superficially it had u add things in 3719 03:49:48.840 --> 03:49:51.959 common with the with the B one, but it was 3720 03:49:52.000 --> 03:49:58.280 purposed essentially to the nuke the Royal Navy and then 3721 03:49:58.520 --> 03:50:04.520 like open up the the Grainland Iceland UK Gap which 3722 03:50:04.879 --> 03:50:07.360 the Soviet Navy had to shoot in order to break 3723 03:50:07.399 --> 03:50:11.280 out of you know, uh the North Atlantic into the 3724 03:50:11.280 --> 03:50:14.680 open Ocean in order to you know, effectively wage war 3725 03:50:14.719 --> 03:50:23.559 against the United States. But the uh the when uh 3726 03:50:24.319 --> 03:50:28.680 I made the point that Reagan's uh dual track strategy, 3727 03:50:28.719 --> 03:50:34.479 which was the Reagan administration offered to remove all theater 3728 03:50:34.840 --> 03:50:41.559 nuclear weapons platforms from Europe, you know, ground launched cruise 3729 03:50:41.559 --> 03:50:45.440 missiles as well as intermediate range ballistic missiles like the 3730 03:50:45.479 --> 03:50:49.840 person too. If the Soviets would have bided the same, Okay, 3731 03:50:50.760 --> 03:50:52.639 if the Soviets wouldn't have buid the same we'll bets 3732 03:50:52.639 --> 03:50:55.680 were off. UH, NATO was going to continue to deploy 3733 03:50:56.079 --> 03:51:02.920 theater nuclear forces. Now arguably this led the Soviets to 3734 03:51:03.159 --> 03:51:06.879 UH to say, well, we've got nothing to lose, and 3735 03:51:06.920 --> 03:51:09.239 that's why they went all in Afghanistan. You can even 3736 03:51:09.280 --> 03:51:10.879 go a step further and say, like, as we got 3737 03:51:10.920 --> 03:51:16.079 into that, this caused terrible anxieties about the possibility of 3738 03:51:16.079 --> 03:51:23.559 a decapitation strike on you know, on on Moscow and UH. 3739 03:51:23.639 --> 03:51:26.479 You know, we talked about how the real impetus for 3740 03:51:26.639 --> 03:51:32.760 intervention in Afghanistan was was a proximity to Kazakhstan, which 3741 03:51:32.840 --> 03:51:36.200 was as important to the Soviet Command, nuclear command and 3742 03:51:36.239 --> 03:51:40.079 control as was Moscow. But as it may, what was 3743 03:51:40.120 --> 03:51:42.479 going on during this era as kind of the Soviet 3744 03:51:42.559 --> 03:51:47.959 Union was hardening its stance in power political terms, there 3745 03:51:48.040 --> 03:51:52.799 was odd things happening between the two Germanys. We talked 3746 03:51:52.840 --> 03:51:56.360 about the hell Sinki Accords, you know that was UH, 3747 03:51:57.040 --> 03:52:02.399 when the Warsaw Pact, you know it all the signatories 3748 03:52:02.440 --> 03:52:05.680 declared that, you know, they they'd honored democratic processes, you know, 3749 03:52:05.719 --> 03:52:08.079 people would not be discriminated against based on you know, 3750 03:52:08.120 --> 03:52:14.040 political affiliation sect nationality. I mean basically it was uh, 3751 03:52:14.840 --> 03:52:19.360 basically the Helsinki Accordus could not coext this with the 3752 03:52:19.399 --> 03:52:23.879 Bread doctrine, which is what the Soviet Union relied upon 3753 03:52:23.959 --> 03:52:27.280 with their intervention in Czechoslovakia on sixty eight. You know, 3754 03:52:28.520 --> 03:52:30.479 this caused a problem because on the one hand, the 3755 03:52:30.479 --> 03:52:32.799 wars Up Pact was desperate for, you know, like a 3756 03:52:32.879 --> 03:52:36.079 legitimacy and credibility in the world stage. On the other hand, 3757 03:52:36.479 --> 03:52:40.440 the only thing holding the structure together, particularly after the 3758 03:52:40.440 --> 03:52:44.959 sound of Soviets split was, uh, what was armed force. 3759 03:52:45.360 --> 03:52:47.319 You know. The only thing making the SOVIETI as superpower 3760 03:52:47.399 --> 03:52:49.200 was the fact that it had, you know, the world's 3761 03:52:49.239 --> 03:52:56.959 mightiest military apparatus. The only thing holding a strategic alliance together, 3762 03:52:57.040 --> 03:53:01.280 which it depended upon, you know, in order to the 3763 03:53:01.440 --> 03:53:04.680 achieve any strategic depth, you know, was the fact that 3764 03:53:05.040 --> 03:53:07.840 if any if any of the satellite states tried to 3765 03:53:07.840 --> 03:53:10.799 throw off the shackles of of of one party rule, 3766 03:53:11.360 --> 03:53:14.040 you know, they the Soviet Union would directly intervene in 3767 03:53:14.120 --> 03:53:17.559 order to defend socialism, you know, or defend the development 3768 03:53:17.600 --> 03:53:22.559 and survival of socialism within its sphere of influence. So 3769 03:53:23.200 --> 03:53:25.600 this was probably this was this was very much tested 3770 03:53:25.959 --> 03:53:29.600 in nineteen eighty eighty one, that's when Poland came under 3771 03:53:29.639 --> 03:53:36.159 martial law. Poland was an interesting case because the uh 3772 03:53:37.120 --> 03:53:40.399 owing Uh. One of the reasons why Carter courted Brazinski, 3773 03:53:40.760 --> 03:53:42.959 you know, as a key part of his ZIGNA. Brzinski 3774 03:53:43.159 --> 03:53:47.200 is a key figure in his national security staff was 3775 03:53:47.399 --> 03:53:52.440 h like Poland seemed to be the kind of the 3776 03:53:52.559 --> 03:53:56.079 kind of it seem it seemed to kind of like 3777 03:53:56.360 --> 03:54:01.319 the natural place to try and you know, create a 3778 03:54:01.319 --> 03:54:08.719 wedge and warsaw pact. You know, if us it was 3779 03:54:08.719 --> 03:54:11.239 inorganic to the d d R. It was totally alien 3780 03:54:11.280 --> 03:54:14.280 to Poland. You know, Poland was basically it was it 3781 03:54:14.319 --> 03:54:16.440 was still a largely in the amand of the war. 3782 03:54:16.479 --> 03:54:18.399 It was still like a largely backwards and not saying 3783 03:54:18.399 --> 03:54:20.559 that the punitive or mean, but it was it was. 3784 03:54:20.600 --> 03:54:26.680 It was still largely backwards country people westach Catholic, Uh. 3785 03:54:26.879 --> 03:54:29.000 They had a strong hatred of the Russians, you know, 3786 03:54:29.479 --> 03:54:37.440 like ethnicran So Communism really kind of had to succeed 3787 03:54:37.520 --> 03:54:40.319 in Poland, Okay, if if the if for for any 3788 03:54:40.360 --> 03:54:43.559 kind of legitimacy to improve, not just to the regime 3789 03:54:43.600 --> 03:54:46.000 is situated there, you know, with to a Warsaw Pact 3790 03:54:46.000 --> 03:54:52.319 generally and uh towards that end, Poland was the recipient 3791 03:54:52.360 --> 03:54:56.600 of a lot of subsidies, which, in turn they used 3792 03:54:56.600 --> 03:54:59.639 to build up infrastructure, including one of the what was 3793 03:54:59.639 --> 03:55:01.760 that that, I'm like one of the world's most advanced 3794 03:55:01.920 --> 03:55:07.239 uh like like like like commuter rail stations like it 3795 03:55:07.399 --> 03:55:10.520 like the like Warsaw Central station. Like it's still like 3796 03:55:10.600 --> 03:55:12.760 it's something like an architenttional marvel. And at the time 3797 03:55:12.799 --> 03:55:15.479 it was like, wow, this is this is this is remarkable. 3798 03:55:15.520 --> 03:55:19.000 But that that you like, like those kinds of public 3799 03:55:19.000 --> 03:55:21.559 works projects or something like the communists like seem to 3800 03:55:21.600 --> 03:55:24.239 do pretty well hit but he as it may. Like 3801 03:55:24.319 --> 03:55:26.200 one of the things the polls did with these subsidies 3802 03:55:26.280 --> 03:55:29.040 is they they set about to create like a fairly 3803 03:55:29.040 --> 03:55:33.239 diversified like manufacturing sector. And you know, the idea was 3804 03:55:33.280 --> 03:55:35.559 that you know, they could build up equity and you know, 3805 03:55:35.639 --> 03:55:38.600 create something of a like an export economy however like 3806 03:55:38.680 --> 03:55:42.959 regionally limited you know, and and and you know and 3807 03:55:42.959 --> 03:55:45.879 and then uh you know, and then become eligible for 3808 03:55:46.079 --> 03:55:48.479 you know, like long term developmental loans and things, and 3809 03:55:48.520 --> 03:55:50.559 you know basically become like a some kind of like 3810 03:55:50.600 --> 03:55:52.879 modern country or at least I got a par with 3811 03:55:52.920 --> 03:55:55.479 like easy Germany, you know, if not you know, if 3812 03:55:55.520 --> 03:56:01.200 not the West. But this obviously didn't work, and uh, 3813 03:56:01.360 --> 03:56:04.159 you know, the Poles found like half the Polish GDP 3814 03:56:04.399 --> 03:56:07.840 as of seventy nine. I think was was was was 3815 03:56:07.879 --> 03:56:13.719 debt and uh the Poles, Uh, they were dealing with 3816 03:56:13.760 --> 03:56:17.159 genuine shortages things like things like that there was raffic 3817 03:56:17.200 --> 03:56:19.559 cards handed out for like meat and eggs and sugar, 3818 03:56:19.920 --> 03:56:22.879 like nobody could get tobacco like cigarettes and actually were 3819 03:56:22.920 --> 03:56:25.000 being used as currency by nineteen eighty one. I mean 3820 03:56:25.040 --> 03:56:28.680 this is like prison like it's literally insane. And one 3821 03:56:28.719 --> 03:56:31.520 of the big one of the big problems in terms 3822 03:56:31.600 --> 03:56:37.440 of rendering the legitimacy crisis was, uh Polish Polish workers 3823 03:56:37.680 --> 03:56:40.920 were being saddled with you know, like increasing demands in 3824 03:56:41.000 --> 03:56:44.000 order to you know, shore up again to look like 3825 03:56:44.440 --> 03:56:48.000 Poland was still gambling on this idea that you know, 3826 03:56:48.040 --> 03:56:51.159 they could they could create like a viable manufacturing sector 3827 03:56:51.200 --> 03:56:53.959 like fit for export. It's like Polish workers are being 3828 03:56:53.959 --> 03:56:56.200 sad to look like more and more and more hours, 3829 03:56:56.639 --> 03:56:59.280 you know, for like diminishing returns, and they couldn't even 3830 03:56:59.280 --> 03:57:01.479 get like the bay is to consumer necessity is a life, 3831 03:57:01.520 --> 03:57:04.959 you know, like cigarettes, like sugar. I mean in a 3832 03:57:05.040 --> 03:57:08.479 socialist state. I mean, this is this is preposterous. You know. 3833 03:57:09.239 --> 03:57:13.719 So that was basically the impetus for solidarity. And you 3834 03:57:13.719 --> 03:57:16.040 can't you can't take a labor union in a communist 3835 03:57:16.079 --> 03:57:19.600 state where like, hey, we're you know, we are the 3836 03:57:19.639 --> 03:57:23.600 proletariat and you know we're not we're having our surplus 3837 03:57:23.639 --> 03:57:25.639 labor literally robbed of us. You can't like take those 3838 03:57:25.680 --> 03:57:27.920 people out and shoot them, okay. I mean, like you 3839 03:57:27.959 --> 03:57:29.879 could like a bunch of Catholics, or a bunch of 3840 03:57:30.280 --> 03:57:32.840 a bunch of Fascists, or a bunch of you know, 3841 03:57:32.920 --> 03:57:35.520 people protesting the party. I mean, so this, this is 3842 03:57:35.559 --> 03:57:39.479 a very tricky situation. The way it was resolved in 3843 03:57:39.520 --> 03:57:47.719 Poland was Jerald Zelski Uh became a general secretary and 3844 03:57:47.799 --> 03:57:50.159 he was a tragic figure. You know. He there's this 3845 03:57:50.239 --> 03:57:52.840 kind of visage of him as a sinister guy. He 3846 03:57:52.959 --> 03:57:57.399 was just you know, Polish military officer. He always wore 3847 03:57:57.440 --> 03:58:00.879 these dark sunglasses. The reason why is because he was 3848 03:58:00.879 --> 03:58:03.120 a lesser of lesser noble birth than when he was 3849 03:58:03.159 --> 03:58:06.840 a teenager when Poland was invaded by the Red Army, 3850 03:58:06.959 --> 03:58:09.680 he his whole family I sent to a gulag, and 3851 03:58:10.120 --> 03:58:13.239 he became his eyes were destroyed by the glare of 3852 03:58:13.360 --> 03:58:15.719 the sun off the snow in the labor camp he 3853 03:58:15.840 --> 03:58:18.440 was in, so like he couldn't stand light, so like 3854 03:58:18.479 --> 03:58:21.520 he'd he'd were sunglasses all the time. And I mean 3855 03:58:21.559 --> 03:58:23.520 it tells you something too, like this guy was literally 3856 03:58:23.600 --> 03:58:26.360 a kid who was like destroyed by the gulegg system, 3857 03:58:26.479 --> 03:58:29.200 like physically in some way and mentally, like he became 3858 03:58:29.280 --> 03:58:32.399 this kind of like this kind of military talent in 3859 03:58:32.440 --> 03:58:35.239 these blocked like it there's something kind of like Shakespeare 3860 03:58:35.319 --> 03:58:38.200 about that. But it's also it tells you something about 3861 03:58:38.239 --> 03:58:42.360 the way like Poland was brutalized by by Communism. It's like, 3862 03:58:42.520 --> 03:58:45.639 you know, there there there was no there weren't even 3863 03:58:45.760 --> 03:58:47.959 there weren't there wasn't even the equivalent of of of 3864 03:58:48.000 --> 03:58:50.879 like the d d Ar Cadre in Poland. You know, 3865 03:58:50.920 --> 03:58:54.559 for them to kind of insinuate us as the ruling cast, 3866 03:58:55.000 --> 03:58:57.360 you know, they took this guy who was literally, you know, 3867 03:58:57.440 --> 03:59:01.760 somebody destroyed by the gulag, you know, like and yeah, 3868 03:59:01.760 --> 03:59:07.280 I just find it fascinating. But so Poland stands alone 3869 03:59:08.040 --> 03:59:10.120 is the only it was the only it was the 3870 03:59:10.159 --> 03:59:12.920 only East plex satellite state that was under the direct 3871 03:59:12.959 --> 03:59:15.040 rule of a military man and it was literally under 3872 03:59:15.040 --> 03:59:22.280 martial law. Now, as this developed first under Carter then 3873 03:59:22.319 --> 03:59:26.760 under Reagan's first term, it raised an interesting question because 3874 03:59:26.760 --> 03:59:29.840 according to the if if Poland went into open a revolt, 3875 03:59:30.639 --> 03:59:34.600 the president of the President of Doctrine dictated that, you know, 3876 03:59:34.760 --> 03:59:37.559 the Soviet army would invade, you know, to to preserve 3877 03:59:37.639 --> 03:59:42.399 the regime and uh and drop off. You can tell 3878 03:59:42.440 --> 03:59:44.399 it was react with anxiety that this is what was 3879 03:59:44.440 --> 03:59:49.159 going to happen. That's something that's clear from you know, 3880 03:59:49.200 --> 03:59:53.879 the notes of uh you know meetings, uh, not just 3881 03:59:54.079 --> 03:59:56.239 the Presidium, but of you know, like the kind of 3882 03:59:56.280 --> 03:59:59.840 inner inner polt Burrow, like the facto, like you know, 3883 03:59:59.840 --> 04:00:04.399 the the cadre that made the decision to a celt Afghanistan, 3884 04:00:04.520 --> 04:00:08.440 like we talked about the other week. But simultaneous to 3885 04:00:08.479 --> 04:00:14.159 this going on, East and West Germany were uh engaged 3886 04:00:14.159 --> 04:00:19.639 in this kind of delicate minuet of UH of reproach 3887 04:00:19.959 --> 04:00:25.200 and Eric Honecker, uh, you know, stal War as he 3888 04:00:25.440 --> 04:00:30.959 was as as as a Marxist Leninist, he'd always pined for, uh, 3889 04:00:31.440 --> 04:00:34.559 you know, for Eastern Men to be recognized as like 3890 04:00:34.639 --> 04:00:39.319 the truly sovereign state, you know, with with with a 3891 04:00:39.319 --> 04:00:44.760 somewhat independent foreign policy. And it was bizarre because on 3892 04:00:44.799 --> 04:00:46.840 the one hand, on the one hand, the d d 3893 04:00:47.040 --> 04:00:50.239 R they reviewed UH as kind of too Stalinist, like 3894 04:00:50.239 --> 04:00:52.520 even prior to Gorbert shaw Off, but they were simultaneously 3895 04:00:52.559 --> 04:00:55.159 viewed as being too cozy and friendly with West Germany. 3896 04:00:55.680 --> 04:01:01.200 I mean, there's there's something bizarre about that. But in 3897 04:01:01.280 --> 04:01:07.559 nineteen eighty seven, Honaker finally got permission for a state 3898 04:01:07.680 --> 04:01:10.479 visit to the bundis Republic. And he've been trying to 3899 04:01:10.479 --> 04:01:15.000 accomplish this. Uh, he'd been trying to accomplish this UH 3900 04:01:15.159 --> 04:01:22.079 for for for for like a decade, and UH initially 3901 04:01:22.159 --> 04:01:25.559 in UH in nineteen eighty four, when he first put 3902 04:01:25.600 --> 04:01:29.600 it to UH, the Soviet Poloit Burrow and the Foreign 3903 04:01:29.639 --> 04:01:34.600 Ministry Sharon Anko said, you know, make a mistake. You 3904 04:01:34.600 --> 04:01:38.280 know that this is not a visit aimed at approachment. UH, 3905 04:01:38.719 --> 04:01:42.200 it's to established lines of demarcation, which is like a 3906 04:01:42.239 --> 04:01:44.959 typically like Soviet answer. It's like both like obnoxious and 3907 04:01:45.000 --> 04:01:47.440 obtuson hostile, but also it doesn't really make any sense 3908 04:01:48.120 --> 04:01:53.040 and like uh, but uh, so there's this weird arrangement 3909 04:01:53.079 --> 04:01:56.239 where Honeker goes to visit the Budist Republic and uh 3910 04:01:57.399 --> 04:02:00.360 the uh they flew like the DDR flag, but they 3911 04:02:00.360 --> 04:02:02.680 full the d DR flags slightly lower than like the 3912 04:02:02.680 --> 04:02:08.360 Booms Republic flag, and like uh they'd uh the uh. 3913 04:02:09.360 --> 04:02:12.360 He like like a band greeted him, like a military band, 3914 04:02:12.520 --> 04:02:14.879 like when he disembarked, you know in Bond, but like 3915 04:02:14.920 --> 04:02:16.840 nobody would salute him as he would like ahead of state. 3916 04:02:16.879 --> 04:02:19.680 It was like this goofy like half measure and there's 3917 04:02:19.680 --> 04:02:25.120 this really striking photographs like a helmet. Cole who uh 3918 04:02:25.159 --> 04:02:28.639 he and Merkele whatever their respective faults, and they are many. 3919 04:02:28.760 --> 04:02:31.799 I mean they they were the really the only post 3920 04:02:31.840 --> 04:02:35.159 war German chancellors who did anything really to restore German 3921 04:02:35.239 --> 04:02:41.399 sovereignty and in various capacities. Cole was a like a 3922 04:02:41.479 --> 04:02:44.000 huge man. He was like this huge, like bear looking guy, 3923 04:02:44.079 --> 04:02:46.120 you know, like this kind of like big Bavarian kind 3924 04:02:46.159 --> 04:02:48.399 of like a Herman Garring type, you know, like big 3925 04:02:48.520 --> 04:02:51.079 loud dude, you know, like uh, just like a huge person. 3926 04:02:51.520 --> 04:02:54.200 And like Honiker Honker was kind of like this creepy 3927 04:02:54.280 --> 04:02:57.440 like nerdy eye, you know, like kinda kind of how 3928 04:02:57.479 --> 04:02:59.760 you like imagine like you know, the kind of communists 3929 04:02:59.760 --> 04:03:01.879 from metal casting this kind of like this kind of 3930 04:03:01.920 --> 04:03:04.600 like profest storial dickhead who like nobody likes. It's like 3931 04:03:04.639 --> 04:03:07.280 there's this photo like you know, like huge like comet cold. 3932 04:03:07.280 --> 04:03:09.079 He's gotta get big grin in his face. There's this 3933 04:03:09.159 --> 04:03:11.280 like pissed off with a like Conker and like an 3934 04:03:11.319 --> 04:03:14.319 east Block suit who's like you know, five five even 3935 04:03:14.479 --> 04:03:16.639 like it's it's like he's like being dwarfed by like 3936 04:03:16.680 --> 04:03:20.479 you know, it was like kind of like you know, 3937 04:03:20.639 --> 04:03:23.200 metaphor that seemed really resident. I thought that as like 3938 04:03:23.200 --> 04:03:26.159 a little kid, and then just the other week when 3939 04:03:26.159 --> 04:03:30.120 I came across it in uh In uh in this 3940 04:03:30.159 --> 04:03:33.280 book in the nineteen eighty nine Revolutions, I'm like, wow, 3941 04:03:33.319 --> 04:03:35.639 that's really striking. I wasn't sure if it was just 3942 04:03:35.680 --> 04:03:37.959 like Mandela effect me like remembering it as being more 3943 04:03:38.040 --> 04:03:46.000 like profound than that. But the what ultimately happened, you know, 3944 04:03:46.040 --> 04:03:51.000 the convergence of all these things it became, it became 3945 04:03:51.040 --> 04:03:55.479 at some point unthinkable, even notwithstanding for the the intrigues 3946 04:03:55.559 --> 04:03:59.159 of a of a you know, within within the Kremlin 3947 04:03:59.760 --> 04:04:02.479 that out Garbachev to kind of rook his enemies, and 3948 04:04:02.479 --> 04:04:07.120 and and in sideline any true uh, you know, hard 3949 04:04:07.200 --> 04:04:12.959 liners aim to sabotage parastrike on policy terms. It at 3950 04:04:13.000 --> 04:04:16.200 some point became unthinkable for the Soviet Army to deploy 3951 04:04:16.920 --> 04:04:20.399 you know, in Poland or in you know, East Germany, 3952 04:04:20.440 --> 04:04:24.040 but came to that and and do what they've done 3953 04:04:24.079 --> 04:04:29.079 in Hungary and fifty six and the Czechoslovakia on sixty eight. 3954 04:04:30.639 --> 04:04:32.639 You know, I mean, zeitgeist is a real thing, man. 3955 04:04:32.719 --> 04:04:36.440 I mean, like, I think people who take historical revisionism seriously, 3956 04:04:36.639 --> 04:04:38.319 I don't think any of them would disagree with this. 3957 04:04:38.600 --> 04:04:43.319 But the but uh, even if you're not you know, 3958 04:04:43.680 --> 04:04:46.079 prone to kind of hay gaily and interpretations of these 3959 04:04:46.079 --> 04:04:52.760 things and the pressure of you know, like world moral consensus, 3960 04:04:52.959 --> 04:04:55.200 that's a real that is a real thing. It's not 3961 04:04:55.239 --> 04:04:57.680 just something that like in a history liberals bandy about. 3962 04:04:58.360 --> 04:05:00.920 And what was possible in nineties sixty eight or ninety 3963 04:05:00.959 --> 04:05:04.360 seventy eight or even nineteen eighty one was no longer 3964 04:05:04.440 --> 04:05:07.120 possible by like nineteen eighty six, nineteen eighty seven. I mean, 3965 04:05:07.120 --> 04:05:10.799 it just it just wasn't thinkable. And I that's why 3966 04:05:10.920 --> 04:05:15.600 when people post the question as the you know, well 3967 04:05:15.719 --> 04:05:21.680 why why wasn't there at Kienman Square. Moment, It's like, well, 3968 04:05:22.639 --> 04:05:26.959 considera like this what actually happened at the inner German border. 3969 04:05:27.760 --> 04:05:31.799 And in the moment it was happening, I I A 3970 04:05:31.840 --> 04:05:38.520 lot of people didn't even fully realize what the precipitating 3971 04:05:38.559 --> 04:05:45.079 catalysts were. In April of eighty nine, really the first 3972 04:05:45.239 --> 04:05:48.000 chink in the uh in the iron curtain, like the 3973 04:05:48.000 --> 04:05:55.440 physical structure of the hardened border was the Hungarian garment 3974 04:05:55.520 --> 04:05:59.239 finally shut off the electric fences that saturated the Austria 3975 04:05:59.559 --> 04:06:04.079 Austria Hungarian border. Uh. The guard towers remained, they were 3976 04:06:04.079 --> 04:06:07.920 still manned, but uh, there literally was an electric fence 3977 04:06:08.040 --> 04:06:13.360 like running the perimeter, you know it. Uh you know, 3978 04:06:13.600 --> 04:06:21.159 I mean and uh by may uh the boy the 3979 04:06:21.200 --> 04:06:24.760 border guards. Uh, there's this, there's this big deal. Uh. 3980 04:06:24.920 --> 04:06:28.040 The border guards uh in Hungary like met with their 3981 04:06:28.319 --> 04:06:33.879 like Austrian counterparts and uh began dismantling like sections of 3982 04:06:34.000 --> 04:06:36.319 the barrier, you know, and they like they the Autionans 3983 04:06:36.319 --> 04:06:39.799 obviously invited you know, like Western news crews and stuff. 3984 04:06:40.479 --> 04:06:43.680 And uh, this is the first kind of indication that 3985 04:06:44.159 --> 04:06:49.319 you know, the like Warsaw Pact could no longer exist 3986 04:06:49.399 --> 04:06:56.040 as it as it had you know, for decades, taking 3987 04:06:56.120 --> 04:07:01.239 its que from that. The Hungarian communists and I know 3988 04:07:01.280 --> 04:07:04.920 that Hungarians, may Garrets, are really great people and they're 3989 04:07:04.920 --> 04:07:07.840 really proud people, and they were actually at the forefront 3990 04:07:07.959 --> 04:07:12.680 of the anti communist resistance. And I'm not praising the 3991 04:07:12.680 --> 04:07:16.879 communist regime there at all, but to their credit, Uh, 3992 04:07:17.559 --> 04:07:28.040 Hungary's foreign minister horn Uh realized that, you know, travel 3993 04:07:28.079 --> 04:07:34.200 restrictions had to be lifted, even if his motives were cynical, 3994 04:07:34.239 --> 04:07:36.879 and that you know, he he was operating with an 3995 04:07:36.879 --> 04:07:40.399 eye to preserve the party state apparatus. The point is that, 3996 04:07:41.200 --> 04:07:44.159 you know, the it was, it was the Hungarian regime 3997 04:07:44.280 --> 04:07:47.680 that really first, you know, kind of gave way, you know, 3998 04:07:47.760 --> 04:07:51.040 and they they had a long they had a long 3999 04:07:51.159 --> 04:07:54.920 history post fifty six a compromise. And again I'm not 4000 04:07:54.959 --> 04:07:58.360 saying because they were good men or something or principled. 4001 04:07:58.799 --> 04:08:01.120 I think a lot of it old, you know, the 4002 04:08:01.120 --> 04:08:04.319 existential reality that in Hungary especially, they wouldn't have survived 4003 04:08:04.360 --> 04:08:09.319 if they hadn't made certain concessions. But people forget that. 4004 04:08:09.639 --> 04:08:12.559 You know, the Hungary the Austro Hungarian border is really 4005 04:08:12.559 --> 04:08:20.479 where where you know, the kind of thaw began and 4006 04:08:20.520 --> 04:08:23.639 what's fascinating too, at least I think so, because I've 4007 04:08:23.680 --> 04:08:26.399 got kind of a fascination, a fascination with a Habsburg 4008 04:08:26.440 --> 04:08:28.799 in Vienna, because i think some people know who like 4009 04:08:28.959 --> 04:08:37.000 follow my content during the summer season, and there was 4010 04:08:37.040 --> 04:08:39.719 always a lot of East German tourists in Hungary and 4011 04:08:39.920 --> 04:08:42.520 nineteen eighty nine was no exception, because you know, Hungary 4012 04:08:42.559 --> 04:08:45.399 is Hungry is a beautiful place, I'm sure, and as 4013 04:08:45.440 --> 04:08:48.559 such it has such a reputation. But you know, if 4014 04:08:48.559 --> 04:08:50.440 you were East German, Hungary is one of the places 4015 04:08:50.440 --> 04:08:54.920 you could visit, you know, like on vacation. And the 4016 04:08:55.120 --> 04:08:59.440 uh An idea which was hatched by Ottovon Habsburg, who 4017 04:08:59.479 --> 04:09:01.639 was the last he was he was the last crown 4018 04:09:01.760 --> 04:09:08.440 prince of the hats for Empire, you know he uh 4019 04:09:08.719 --> 04:09:12.559 he said, uh, let's invite uh let's let's let's invite 4020 04:09:12.600 --> 04:09:18.799 our German friends to a picnic on the uh Austro 4021 04:09:18.920 --> 04:09:22.840 Hungarian border. And of course, you know, like there're these 4022 04:09:22.920 --> 04:09:25.760 these East German you know, tourists swarm to the border, 4023 04:09:26.360 --> 04:09:28.319 which was then opened ups. They could you know, travel 4024 04:09:28.360 --> 04:09:30.440 to Austria and then from there, you know, they could 4025 04:09:30.440 --> 04:09:35.079 get you know, to the Bundus Republic. And this totally 4026 04:09:35.120 --> 04:09:39.200 neutralized uh, you know, the inner German border and its 4027 04:09:39.840 --> 04:09:43.879 ability to plug the verbial see that you know, had 4028 04:09:43.959 --> 04:09:49.079 led to their hemorrhaging of population. And from that point on, 4029 04:09:50.159 --> 04:09:54.959 uh and and and you know, unless unless the East 4030 04:09:54.959 --> 04:09:58.360 Germans were truly willing to the open fire on their 4031 04:09:58.399 --> 04:10:03.520 own people. And and I can't think of anybody who 4032 04:10:03.520 --> 04:10:06.920 would have been willing to take responsibility for that. You know, 4033 04:10:06.920 --> 04:10:10.559 there's nothing short of that would have uh what have 4034 04:10:10.719 --> 04:10:15.600 uh would have changed things. And like I said, even 4035 04:10:15.639 --> 04:10:21.440 before Gorbachev, the uh whatever, I I think it was 4036 04:10:21.479 --> 04:10:26.159 already unthinkable. You know again, like hard line is uh 4037 04:10:27.159 --> 04:10:32.680 the d drop of Sharon Anco regimes were I think 4038 04:10:32.680 --> 04:10:34.639 it was kind of the same regime as I've vindicated 4039 04:10:34.680 --> 04:10:38.200 for reasons I've neigated before. It was clear even by 4040 04:10:38.239 --> 04:10:40.840 then that you know, the prison of Doctionri was dead 4041 04:10:40.840 --> 04:10:46.920 for practical purposes, and the Soviet Union was a superpower. 4042 04:10:47.040 --> 04:10:50.079 Like people forget that sometimes you're not talking about Sam's Iraq, 4043 04:10:50.159 --> 04:10:55.399 you're not talking about you know, you're not, uh, you're 4044 04:10:55.440 --> 04:10:57.520 you're not You're not talking about North Korea. You're not 4045 04:10:57.799 --> 04:11:01.200 you know you were you weren't talking about you you're 4046 04:11:01.200 --> 04:11:03.879 you're even talking about a place like two Gemount of Croatia, 4047 04:11:03.959 --> 04:11:06.239 like which I think was a great regime. But my 4048 04:11:06.280 --> 04:11:09.559 point is, you know, this thing, the Soviet Union still 4049 04:11:09.680 --> 04:11:13.559 was accountable in some basic way, you know, as a superpower. 4050 04:11:13.600 --> 04:11:18.799 I mean they they they their territory spanned one six 4051 04:11:18.840 --> 04:11:23.200 of the planet, and the sphere of influence was, you know, 4052 04:11:24.520 --> 04:11:27.559 in territorial terms, exceeded even that of the United States, 4053 04:11:28.200 --> 04:11:31.559 I mean outside of you know, the Soviet Empire proper. 4054 04:11:32.360 --> 04:11:42.120 But what uh, what I think is key with respect 4055 04:11:42.200 --> 04:11:47.920 to the uh, how the Cold War ended, is what 4056 04:11:48.000 --> 04:11:53.639 was happening in Washington and how uh Bush forty one 4057 04:11:53.639 --> 04:11:58.959 and James Baker proceeded. That's the only thing that facilitated 4058 04:11:59.000 --> 04:12:06.040 Gorbachev's like the realization of his and Edward chevit Nardza 4059 04:12:06.200 --> 04:12:09.680 I always butchered the pronunciation of that name. He was 4060 04:12:09.719 --> 04:12:13.399 the foreign minister who succeeded rom Eco later became President 4061 04:12:13.479 --> 04:12:19.520 of Georgia. But in foreign policy terms, Schev Knadze was 4062 04:12:21.879 --> 04:12:24.479 he He was really kind of the go between in 4063 04:12:24.479 --> 04:12:29.360 some ways between the Kremlin and the US foreign policy establishment. 4064 04:12:30.159 --> 04:12:34.399 And as we talked about Team b and they kind 4065 04:12:34.440 --> 04:12:38.079 of hold they had over the trajectory of policy in 4066 04:12:38.120 --> 04:12:44.600 the Reagan administration. They've been somewhat sidelined by the Bush 4067 04:12:44.639 --> 04:12:49.079 forty one administration. Shaney was kind of their man who 4068 04:12:49.120 --> 04:12:55.840 remained in proximity to you know, to the sovereign lever 4069 04:12:55.920 --> 04:13:00.479 of power. But Baker and Bush, as I've discussed before, 4070 04:13:02.159 --> 04:13:05.840 their vision was not the Soviet Union being dismantled. Quite 4071 04:13:05.879 --> 04:13:09.840 the contrary. They at least wanted the Soviet Union to 4072 04:13:09.920 --> 04:13:14.280 endure until total disarmament was realized, you know, total nuclear 4073 04:13:14.280 --> 04:13:20.920 disarmament and almost total you know, reduction of conventional forces 4074 04:13:20.920 --> 04:13:28.040 and being and moving forward even from that, I believe, yeah, no, 4075 04:13:28.079 --> 04:13:28.479 please do. 4076 04:13:28.879 --> 04:13:32.719 Would that be coming from the same faction uh that 4077 04:13:32.760 --> 04:13:38.040 today is responsible for wanting to topple Putin. 4078 04:13:39.319 --> 04:13:41.840 That's the team the legacy that those guys are, the 4079 04:13:41.920 --> 04:13:45.879 legacy of Team B and in some places the very 4080 04:13:45.879 --> 04:13:49.719 sane people, because like Bush and Baker, their idea was like, okay, 4081 04:13:49.840 --> 04:13:52.959 they basically wanted to like reinstitute what it been, kind 4082 04:13:52.959 --> 04:13:55.520 of like the New Deal idea, like the New Deal 4083 04:13:55.600 --> 04:13:58.879 concord of like the world ruled by the United States, 4084 04:13:58.959 --> 04:14:01.680 the Soviet Union, or like something like a Commonwealth of 4085 04:14:01.719 --> 04:14:07.879 Independent states like succeeding it as like junior partner Kane, 4086 04:14:08.360 --> 04:14:10.760 he was on a records literally saying like fuck them, 4087 04:14:10.799 --> 04:14:13.239 I mean the sty Union they lost. You know, let's 4088 04:14:13.280 --> 04:14:16.120 detonate it. Let's let's basically detonate like all the all 4089 04:14:16.120 --> 04:14:19.159 the republics, you know, the nationalities. You know, let's tear 4090 04:14:19.200 --> 04:14:21.600 the sovieni apart. Let's like loot what we can keep 4091 04:14:21.680 --> 04:14:27.360 Russia permanently down, you know, let's surround it based you know, 4092 04:14:27.799 --> 04:14:29.799 we'll turn it. We'll we'll turn Ukraine into like a 4093 04:14:29.799 --> 04:14:32.440 garrison state, will turn Georgia into a garrison state. You know. 4094 04:14:32.600 --> 04:14:36.600 Uh and basically you know, keep our basically you know, 4095 04:14:36.680 --> 04:14:41.719 Morgan foul play in Russia. Okay, those are the guys 4096 04:14:41.760 --> 04:14:45.840 who went out from Clinton administration onward. I mean Clinton 4097 04:14:45.879 --> 04:14:48.479 was a complete buffoon in foreign policy. Like he literally 4098 04:14:48.559 --> 04:14:52.520 was just like a fucking buffoon. He was basically he 4099 04:14:52.520 --> 04:14:55.159 basically was. He was basically a machiavilion on on the 4100 04:14:55.239 --> 04:14:57.760 order of LBJ like his in terms of his politicking, 4101 04:14:57.840 --> 04:15:00.040 he was like a manchafule politician, like what he I 4102 04:15:00.040 --> 04:15:01.280 think that's like a lot of what or not kind 4103 04:15:01.280 --> 04:15:04.440 of depends on your perspective. But he had like the 4104 04:15:04.520 --> 04:15:08.280 zero interest, no understanding of foreign policy, like none, so 4105 04:15:08.479 --> 04:15:11.559 uh basically it was like available to highest bidder, you know. 4106 04:15:11.559 --> 04:15:16.120 And that's why everything all the goodwill like achieved by 4107 04:15:16.120 --> 04:15:19.680 the Bush Baker concord was just like it was just 4108 04:15:19.719 --> 04:15:24.399 like you know, nuke to like proverbially subsequently. And then 4109 04:15:24.920 --> 04:15:28.920 you know the uh, the uh the assault on Serbia, 4110 04:15:29.680 --> 04:15:32.040 you know, which was deployed a strategic logic other than 4111 04:15:32.079 --> 04:15:33.920 basically just to say, like you know, we're gonna like 4112 04:15:34.079 --> 04:15:35.840 we're gonna break Ivan's face and get him out of 4113 04:15:35.840 --> 04:15:38.000 the Balkans, Like like why would you even do that? 4114 04:15:38.159 --> 04:15:42.280 But I mean it's some you know that. Uh, those 4115 04:15:42.399 --> 04:15:46.840 those the two that's that's what's underway today. That's why 4116 04:15:49.639 --> 04:15:52.280 these like neo con types and and like they're they're 4117 04:15:52.319 --> 04:15:55.200 kind of a sentence. They they still this day like 4118 04:15:55.399 --> 04:15:57.760 Rake Bush forty one over the close but believe the 4119 04:15:57.840 --> 04:16:01.399 Chicken Kief speech like how dare he? Like and modern 4120 04:16:01.520 --> 04:16:05.360 the Ukrainians not to wage some like suicide suicidal war 4121 04:16:05.360 --> 04:16:08.879 against Moscow for no reason. I mean like it's but 4122 04:16:09.000 --> 04:16:13.520 that's uh yeah, I mean that's a post understand me too, 4123 04:16:13.559 --> 04:16:16.680 Like I'm not saying Obviously, anybody who's not a freaking 4124 04:16:16.719 --> 04:16:20.399 idiot should realize that I'm not advocating like some kind 4125 04:16:20.399 --> 04:16:22.159 of like new deal or revision of the world like 4126 04:16:22.239 --> 04:16:25.520 two point zero. But what Bush and Baker accomplished was 4127 04:16:25.559 --> 04:16:29.920 truly masterful. The golfer a coalition is unprecedented, you know. 4128 04:16:29.920 --> 04:16:33.040 And the fact that basically like Busch forty one like 4129 04:16:33.040 --> 04:16:36.000 at the whole world like like freaking in the palm 4130 04:16:36.000 --> 04:16:41.000 of his hand, like that's crazy, you know, and he uh, 4131 04:16:41.040 --> 04:16:45.520 he courted the Arab world in a way that was 4132 04:16:45.719 --> 04:16:48.440 with an eye towards genuinely like normalizing you know, the 4133 04:16:48.479 --> 04:16:52.680 Middle East and and kind of defanging uh Desigonist lobby. 4134 04:16:53.159 --> 04:16:54.840 Like that's not just again, I'm not saying Bush forty 4135 04:16:54.879 --> 04:16:57.040 one was like our guy like at all, but he 4136 04:16:57.120 --> 04:17:00.360 represented something very different than the neo cons and different 4137 04:17:00.360 --> 04:17:04.600 from like even you know, even most like Rhino types 4138 04:17:04.639 --> 04:17:06.760 you know, like that, and same thing with Baker, like 4139 04:17:07.000 --> 04:17:10.120 these guys were like the old you want to, like, 4140 04:17:10.120 --> 04:17:12.840 like the old Protestant establishment the last time they were 4141 04:17:12.840 --> 04:17:15.479 like at the Helm like that was it okay? So 4142 04:17:16.000 --> 04:17:19.360 and frankly like in some basic way, like those guys 4143 04:17:19.399 --> 04:17:22.319 are like my teen like even though like class divides 4144 04:17:22.399 --> 04:17:24.920 us like it, I'm I'm not gonna sit here and 4145 04:17:24.959 --> 04:17:27.799 like out and out like trash them because frankly, like 4146 04:17:27.920 --> 04:17:31.120 their vision was like far better than anybody else's, like 4147 04:17:31.200 --> 04:17:33.239 post war like now withsaying the fact, you know, the 4148 04:17:33.280 --> 04:17:37.079 war shouldn't have happened. But that's that's what I want 4149 04:17:37.079 --> 04:17:40.799 to get into next week. And the Gulf War. Uh, 4150 04:17:41.520 --> 04:17:43.559 the Golfer is like an Adam Dam to the Cold War, 4151 04:17:43.920 --> 04:17:46.479 like it really is, and like the even you know, 4152 04:17:46.680 --> 04:17:51.479 uh black Horse Regiment Armored cavalry you know who patrolled 4153 04:17:51.520 --> 04:17:53.719 the full the gap like they fought like at the 4154 04:17:54.239 --> 04:17:57.200 seventy three East thing. That's where Darelas McGregor like he 4155 04:17:57.280 --> 04:17:59.239 was a black Horse regiment. Like there's all kinds of 4156 04:18:00.120 --> 04:18:02.360 plus two. I mean, it's that's that's where you got 4157 04:18:02.399 --> 04:18:06.479 to see the you know, the bay like the post 4158 04:18:06.559 --> 04:18:10.319 revolution in military affairs like US Army, which I believe 4159 04:18:10.399 --> 04:18:12.840 was like the US Army at Zenith like at that 4160 04:18:12.840 --> 04:18:16.159 that can be argued you know, fight against like warsaw 4161 04:18:16.200 --> 04:18:19.520 pack weapons platforms and and just and the political climate 4162 04:18:20.280 --> 04:18:22.559 globally like it's just something that like has never been 4163 04:18:22.559 --> 04:18:24.920 seen before and will like like will never be duplicated, 4164 04:18:25.319 --> 04:18:28.360 you know, And that's and and that that was. So 4165 04:18:28.360 --> 04:18:32.799 it's not just I it's not just an addendum because 4166 04:18:32.840 --> 04:18:36.600 it was post November ninete eighty nine, but pre you know, 4167 04:18:36.840 --> 04:18:41.799 uh pre uh dissolution of the the USSR. It like 4168 04:18:41.840 --> 04:18:44.280 you've got to really understand that it's kind of not 4169 04:18:44.319 --> 04:18:47.639 just the zenith of American power and absolute terms, but 4170 04:18:48.079 --> 04:18:50.639 also kind of like the realization of like the Bush 4171 04:18:50.680 --> 04:18:55.040 and Baker kind of a vision of a of of 4172 04:18:55.040 --> 04:18:58.600 of of foreign policy moving forward, other of globalism rather 4173 04:18:59.079 --> 04:19:02.440 like which was you know, burn to the ground within 4174 04:19:02.600 --> 04:19:08.040 half a decade by by uh by the foods like 4175 04:19:08.040 --> 04:19:12.920 Clinton and you know people who would uh you know 4176 04:19:12.920 --> 04:19:16.120 who would would place h they're pretty you know, kind 4177 04:19:16.120 --> 04:19:23.079 of ancestral hatreds overall over a meaningful you know, historical development. 4178 04:19:23.239 --> 04:19:24.920 But yeah, that's what all I got for today. 4179 04:19:24.920 --> 04:19:27.440 Man, Well, let me ask you this before we go. 4180 04:19:27.639 --> 04:19:30.559 I mean, I was watching I was watching it on 4181 04:19:30.680 --> 04:19:35.559 TV on November ninth. Wasn't anything that you know, I 4182 04:19:35.600 --> 04:19:40.000 expected then. We didn't have the internet, we couldn't keep CNN. Yeah, 4183 04:19:40.399 --> 04:19:44.040 and so how did that? How did that happen? Because 4184 04:19:44.040 --> 04:19:45.959 you you can go on YouTube now and you can 4185 04:19:46.000 --> 04:19:48.799 watch there's videos of seeing people pouring over the border, 4186 04:19:49.479 --> 04:19:53.280 ladies like you know, screaming at at East German officers 4187 04:19:53.280 --> 04:19:54.680 saying just let me go, let me go. 4188 04:19:55.879 --> 04:19:58.280 Well, what happened at UH, what happened at the East 4189 04:19:58.280 --> 04:20:06.559 German border was the UH. As the situation in Hungary, 4190 04:20:06.639 --> 04:20:08.959 he kind of became like more and more unmanageable, you know, 4191 04:20:09.000 --> 04:20:12.159 with like East Germans just UH, you know, hopping over 4192 04:20:12.239 --> 04:20:16.600 to UH Austria and then to you know, and then 4193 04:20:16.680 --> 04:20:18.760 and then UH and then to the West German Embassy 4194 04:20:18.799 --> 04:20:24.239 and then like onward, you know, the Buddhist Republic, the UH, 4195 04:20:26.760 --> 04:20:29.799 the the Volkes commer Well, first of all, Eric Honecker. 4196 04:20:30.719 --> 04:20:33.719 Honeker stepped down because there was you know a lot 4197 04:20:33.719 --> 04:20:38.399 of these protests that were underway in easter in the 4198 04:20:38.440 --> 04:20:41.680 d d R. We're demanding that Honeker resign among other things. 4199 04:20:42.200 --> 04:20:48.559 Honeker steps down. The Volkes Comma UH appoints Egon Krenz, 4200 04:20:48.719 --> 04:20:51.040 which was who was like the air apparent anyway, he 4201 04:20:51.159 --> 04:20:52.920 was the guy who was like being groomed like as 4202 04:20:53.079 --> 04:21:02.799 you know, successor Krans Uh ordered UH the Interior Ministry 4203 04:21:03.040 --> 04:21:10.159 to draft UH regulations that were less uh that were 4204 04:21:10.280 --> 04:21:17.520 less uh less oppressive unless byzantine that would allow people 4205 04:21:17.719 --> 04:21:21.120 exit visas, you know, which it was totally arbitrary and capricious, 4206 04:21:21.239 --> 04:21:23.760 like who would be a grand one and who wouldn't 4207 04:21:23.799 --> 04:21:27.600 be like like it didn't make any sense. But uh, 4208 04:21:29.959 --> 04:21:38.319 the uh credsass Gerald Gerhard Gerhard Gerhard Louder, who was, 4209 04:21:38.399 --> 04:21:44.000 among other things, uh, the volks Politici chief who were 4210 04:21:44.079 --> 04:21:49.959 responsible for you know, border checkpoint security among other things, 4211 04:21:51.639 --> 04:21:55.360 he heard the hymn to order the Interior Ministry you know, 4212 04:21:55.760 --> 04:21:58.680 to draft some kind of workable uh you know, like 4213 04:21:58.840 --> 04:22:03.520 visa applications some that in there. What they were hoping 4214 04:22:03.799 --> 04:22:07.040 was that people who were political unreliable, they could basically 4215 04:22:07.120 --> 04:22:09.479 just like send them away to West Berlin, you know, 4216 04:22:09.719 --> 04:22:15.239 with good riddance. But you know they could uh find 4217 04:22:15.399 --> 04:22:17.520 some way you know to grant visa the people that 4218 04:22:17.639 --> 04:22:23.600 appeared like nominally like democratic, but you know, would would 4219 04:22:23.639 --> 04:22:25.639 there there'd still be incentives them to like remain in 4220 04:22:26.399 --> 04:22:30.319 you know, not not defect basically generally that would be 4221 04:22:30.479 --> 04:22:33.040 you know, to not like the only like you have 4222 04:22:33.440 --> 04:22:35.559 a ford like one member of a family, like a visa, 4223 04:22:35.639 --> 04:22:40.639 you know, stuff like that. But the way this was 4224 04:22:40.719 --> 04:22:45.840 communicated was Uh you had people already like massing at 4225 04:22:45.879 --> 04:22:50.920 the checkpoints, you know, in anticipation of like what the 4226 04:22:51.040 --> 04:22:54.520 new like law would be, like awaiting the announcement, and 4227 04:22:54.799 --> 04:23:00.600 uh you had louder and uh these Interior Ministry officials, 4228 04:23:01.159 --> 04:23:04.840 you know, who are being bombarded with with questions, not 4229 04:23:05.000 --> 04:23:07.719 just from like d d R state media, but although 4230 04:23:07.760 --> 04:23:13.440 from like Western uh television and radio reps. And finally, uh, 4231 04:23:15.360 --> 04:23:20.840 this spokesman uh for the Interior Ministry, he read aloud, 4232 04:23:21.040 --> 04:23:24.559 uh the statement from the Vogues Comma about the status 4233 04:23:24.600 --> 04:23:28.079 of the new law, which was that private travel restriction 4234 04:23:28.319 --> 04:23:30.799 was now permitted. And it's not clear if this was 4235 04:23:30.840 --> 04:23:35.920 a broken memo or like you know, uh tell whatsoever, 4236 04:23:36.479 --> 04:23:40.680 or if it was just poorly drafted. But then a 4237 04:23:41.159 --> 04:23:43.920 reporter said, could you repeat that? Does that mean that 4238 04:23:43.959 --> 04:23:46.879 there's no longer any travel restrictions? And when does this 4239 04:23:47.000 --> 04:23:53.360 go into effect? And uh this this this spokesman said, well, 4240 04:23:53.399 --> 04:23:55.840 I believe it goes into effect immediately. And then the 4241 04:23:55.920 --> 04:24:01.159 people the checkpoints I started charging the border. Now, nobody 4242 04:24:01.239 --> 04:24:05.079 was willing to open fire on these people, so the 4243 04:24:07.840 --> 04:24:10.079 or cops like overwhelmed. After a while, they just like 4244 04:24:10.319 --> 04:24:11.840 threw open the gate, you know, because like what are 4245 04:24:11.840 --> 04:24:13.959 they gonna do. It's like they were they gonna get stampeded. 4246 04:24:14.040 --> 04:24:15.520 They's either gonna be a riot or there's gonna be 4247 04:24:15.520 --> 04:24:19.159 a riot, or you know, the Stasi was going to 4248 04:24:19.239 --> 04:24:22.799 deploy like you know, the internal security troops and start 4249 04:24:23.040 --> 04:24:25.399 you know, like killing people. And like none of these 4250 04:24:25.440 --> 04:24:28.159 guys wanted any part of that, I mean, if not 4251 04:24:28.280 --> 04:24:31.760 for ethical objections, because they didn't want to be held responsible. 4252 04:24:32.600 --> 04:24:36.399 So it was basically just like the momentum of of 4253 04:24:37.040 --> 04:24:43.799 you know, the will to kind of make this happen, 4254 04:24:44.440 --> 04:24:48.000 you know, like corneys. It sounds like people power if 4255 04:24:48.040 --> 04:24:50.920 you can get me, just sounding like a forgetting hippie 4256 04:24:51.000 --> 04:24:53.280 or something. But that's basically what went down. 4257 04:24:54.479 --> 04:24:58.920 And then and then forty days later, remaining had decided 4258 04:24:59.000 --> 04:24:59.760 that it was u. 4259 04:25:00.920 --> 04:25:03.719 Romania is kind of horrifying, man, like, not not the country. 4260 04:25:03.799 --> 04:25:06.319 It did. Romania is freaking awesome. It's like fascinating. But 4261 04:25:07.200 --> 04:25:10.360 Usescu was the one man, the one of the final 4262 04:25:10.440 --> 04:25:15.879 warsaw packed summits. Romania is fascinating because Sescu he played 4263 04:25:15.920 --> 04:25:18.840 both sides of the aisle. He got Kennedy to take 4264 04:25:19.360 --> 04:25:25.319 Romania off the target list for strategic nuclear weapons and uh. 4265 04:25:25.639 --> 04:25:28.799 He basically drew down the Romanian Army to like nothing 4266 04:25:28.840 --> 04:25:32.319 but like an internal like it means an internal oppression 4267 04:25:33.000 --> 04:25:37.159 for all practical purposes. He quit Warsaw Packed. Okay, you 4268 04:25:37.239 --> 04:25:40.479 know it was uh, it was not despite beings. That's 4269 04:25:40.520 --> 04:25:43.120 kind of arch Stalinist. He was not pretty clarly cozy 4270 04:25:43.159 --> 04:25:46.559 with the Kremlin. But he during the final October eighty 4271 04:25:46.680 --> 04:25:51.360 nine and the final Warsaw Packed summit, where internal security 4272 04:25:51.520 --> 04:25:54.680 was obviously on everybody's mind, he said, like we've got 4273 04:25:54.760 --> 04:25:56.879 to do with the Chinese comrades did at Tim and 4274 04:25:56.959 --> 04:25:58.520 even Honeker apparently looked at him. He was like, what 4275 04:25:58.559 --> 04:26:00.559 the hell is the matter with you? At least don't 4276 04:26:00.559 --> 04:26:03.639 say that out loud, like you know, like that's uh. 4277 04:26:04.360 --> 04:26:06.719 But yeah, the uh, we'll get into that too, because 4278 04:26:06.719 --> 04:26:10.760 that's fascinating and it's it's the outlier. Yeah, and I 4279 04:26:10.840 --> 04:26:13.200 mean for all kinds of reasons, but yeah, the uh, 4280 04:26:14.159 --> 04:26:17.520 the uh And then then and then mister and missus, 4281 04:26:18.600 --> 04:26:21.159 I saw that when I was in my aunt's house 4282 04:26:21.200 --> 04:26:25.000 and Mentura that Christmas, and I seeing that Cescu was 4283 04:26:25.040 --> 04:26:28.000 getting getting blown away like on TV and that and 4284 04:26:28.120 --> 04:26:30.479 this is this is like young people understand. This is 4285 04:26:30.559 --> 04:26:34.319 like you know, consumer internet was basically where you can 4286 04:26:34.360 --> 04:26:37.520 see video was like ten years away, fifteen years away. 4287 04:26:37.920 --> 04:26:40.600 Like this was like that's freaking crazy. It's like and 4288 04:26:41.000 --> 04:26:43.079 it's it's I shook me up as like a young team. 4289 04:26:43.120 --> 04:26:45.200 Then he killed his wife too, because there was like 4290 04:26:45.399 --> 04:26:47.399 I mean, she was she was a terrible person, but 4291 04:26:47.559 --> 04:26:49.639 like she was an old lady. They just like wasted 4292 04:26:49.680 --> 04:26:51.920 her like and I remember like one of the guards 4293 04:26:51.920 --> 04:26:53.959 they were leading leading them to the you know, the 4294 04:26:54.959 --> 04:26:58.760 to uh to the courtyard to be shot, Like the 4295 04:26:58.840 --> 04:27:00.840 one guard like put his hand in his album and 4296 04:27:00.879 --> 04:27:02.479 she just like shakes it off like that. I mean, 4297 04:27:02.520 --> 04:27:04.639 she was like a hard lady. But it's like the 4298 04:27:04.719 --> 04:27:06.200 point is she was like an old woman. I mean 4299 04:27:06.239 --> 04:27:08.280 it's like that kind of shocked me as a kid man. 4300 04:27:08.440 --> 04:27:14.520 But yeah, we'll uh well, uh yeah, we'll we'll cover uh, 4301 04:27:15.399 --> 04:27:18.079 we'll cover that. We'll cover Gulf War and bush Baker 4302 04:27:19.799 --> 04:27:22.559 in uh the final episode, we'll get into like Borwich 4303 04:27:22.639 --> 04:27:26.520 offers Yelton too, and so yeah, we we might go 4304 04:27:26.559 --> 04:27:28.399 a little bit longer next time. And that's okay with you, 4305 04:27:28.600 --> 04:27:30.159 but I think that'll be great. 4306 04:27:30.399 --> 04:27:31.760 All right plugs. 4307 04:27:33.280 --> 04:27:35.200 Yeah, I mean for the time being, I'm still on Twitter, 4308 04:27:37.440 --> 04:27:41.239 so seek me out there. Uh it's Thomas seventh number 4309 04:27:41.319 --> 04:27:44.840 seven hl A S seven seven seven. It's official Underscore 4310 04:27:45.280 --> 04:27:48.479 Thomas seven seven seven. My primary home right now is 4311 04:27:48.559 --> 04:27:52.920 sub stack. Uh real Thomas seven seven seven. That's subset 4312 04:27:53.000 --> 04:27:56.959 dot com. I'm back on Instagram, I am. I I 4313 04:27:57.040 --> 04:28:00.399 gotta go out of town end of April, but May 4314 04:28:00.559 --> 04:28:03.719 first week in May, I promise. The channel is we're 4315 04:28:03.760 --> 04:28:07.879 shooting dedicated content like my crime partner and my my 4316 04:28:08.239 --> 04:28:11.520 my erstwhile editor who is is a is a prince 4317 04:28:11.559 --> 04:28:13.600 of the realm. I swear like the he's the reason 4318 04:28:13.719 --> 04:28:15.680 why all this stuff gets done because I I'm freaking 4319 04:28:16.200 --> 04:28:21.920 illiterate with this stuff. But I uh, we're we're we're 4320 04:28:22.079 --> 04:28:24.520 we're cranking out like fire ship, like I promise, But 4321 04:28:24.680 --> 04:28:27.319 I am like he and I really a two man 4322 04:28:27.440 --> 04:28:29.639 freaking operation. I mean, it's a lot of work, and 4323 04:28:29.680 --> 04:28:32.360 I I'm not being a murder. I'm an incredibly lucky person. 4324 04:28:32.479 --> 04:28:35.399 But that coupled with these manuscripts I'm trying to finish, 4325 04:28:36.120 --> 04:28:38.479 coupled with keeping up with all this other ship, I mean, 4326 04:28:38.600 --> 04:28:41.920 it's it's it's a freaking lot of work, man, But 4327 04:28:42.040 --> 04:28:45.360 it's come and I promise, man, Yeah, that's what I got. 4328 04:28:45.639 --> 04:28:47.159 Yep, appreciate it's all the next time. 4329 04:28:47.559 --> 04:28:48.319 Yeah, thank you, Pete. 4330 04:28:50.840 --> 04:28:52.680 All right, I don't want to welcome everyone to the 4331 04:28:53.040 --> 04:28:55.840 uh the Q and a wrap up show for the 4332 04:28:56.000 --> 04:28:59.159 Cold War series with Thomas seven seven seven. 4333 04:28:59.559 --> 04:29:03.559 You don't I'm very well, thanks and yeah, thanks for 4334 04:29:03.760 --> 04:29:07.120 commentating this format. Like I said, it just seems to 4335 04:29:07.200 --> 04:29:12.600 make sense. And I know that a lot of the 4336 04:29:12.639 --> 04:29:16.639 subscribers have been eager to you know, ask questions and 4337 04:29:16.639 --> 04:29:19.520 stuff and kind of get a more discussion based format going. 4338 04:29:20.319 --> 04:29:21.719 So yeah, that's great, man. 4339 04:29:22.440 --> 04:29:24.639 Can I can I start with a question for me? 4340 04:29:25.280 --> 04:29:26.440 Yeah, of course, all right. 4341 04:29:26.479 --> 04:29:30.879 Cool. We talked about this in the Yaki Spangler episode. 4342 04:29:31.079 --> 04:29:31.559 I did. 4343 04:29:31.760 --> 04:29:35.239 But a lot of people who have just start hearing 4344 04:29:35.280 --> 04:29:38.559 about Yaki here that Yaki was, uh, you know after 4345 04:29:38.639 --> 04:29:42.719 World War Two and especially you know from after nineteen 4346 04:29:42.799 --> 04:29:46.479 fifty ish, he took the side of the Soviet Union 4347 04:29:46.719 --> 04:29:47.760 over America. 4348 04:29:47.959 --> 04:29:50.799 Can you explain why he would do that? 4349 04:29:53.120 --> 04:29:59.319 I mean, in geostrategic terms, it it's the perennial principle 4350 04:29:59.559 --> 04:30:02.399 that the only way that Europe is truly going to 4351 04:30:02.440 --> 04:30:07.239 be an autonomous actor. The only way it's going to 4352 04:30:07.239 --> 04:30:10.600 be able to compete as a superpower is if some 4353 04:30:10.680 --> 04:30:16.120 sort of concord is accomplished with Russia. You know this. Uh, 4354 04:30:17.280 --> 04:30:24.559 some people suggest that this is the Kinders world island 4355 04:30:24.799 --> 04:30:28.799 hypothers this, I mean, it isn't. It isn't. It's not. Uh, 4356 04:30:29.280 --> 04:30:33.079 it's not as so much a geography as destiny calculus. 4357 04:30:34.399 --> 04:30:37.399 It Uh, it has it has to do with power potential, 4358 04:30:38.239 --> 04:30:41.959 not just of material resources, but you know of uh 4359 04:30:42.360 --> 04:30:44.799 of mentioned material as you know that Germans used to 4360 04:30:44.840 --> 04:30:49.040 refer to, you know, human population. It's not just in 4361 04:30:49.120 --> 04:30:51.399 terms of their biology, but in terms of their capacity 4362 04:30:51.479 --> 04:30:55.040 to bear culture and things like that. Europe as this 4363 04:30:55.200 --> 04:31:01.200 kind of rump peninsula, you know, forever on an enemy 4364 04:31:01.280 --> 04:31:07.879 footing with Russia, artificially instigated and maintained by the United States, 4365 04:31:08.360 --> 04:31:11.600 is never even if the United States withdrew its forces 4366 04:31:11.639 --> 04:31:16.719 and being from Europe, but that status quo remained, Europe 4367 04:31:16.719 --> 04:31:21.600 would never ever be able to you know, emerge again 4368 04:31:21.680 --> 04:31:24.440 as as as a true power political actor of any 4369 04:31:24.680 --> 04:31:27.360 of any significance and hard power terms, I mean obviously 4370 04:31:27.440 --> 04:31:31.600 in economic terms and in cultural terms. You know, your 4371 04:31:31.719 --> 04:31:33.719 Europe is always you know, the kind of the center 4372 04:31:33.719 --> 04:31:37.280 of the world. Okay, and in many respects, but so 4373 04:31:37.360 --> 04:31:45.719 there's that part of it. Secondly, YACKI not incorrectly he identified, uh, 4374 04:31:46.680 --> 04:31:50.040 what the Cold War is basically and in house controversy 4375 04:31:50.079 --> 04:31:53.719 in ideological terms. You know, it was the the New 4376 04:31:53.799 --> 04:31:56.959 Dealer alliance with Moscow. Wasn't just a sort of alliance 4377 04:31:57.000 --> 04:31:59.920 of convenience because Europe was in the third right, which 4378 04:31:59.920 --> 04:32:02.000 is so evil like on his face, that doesn't make 4379 04:32:02.040 --> 04:32:07.520 any sense. You know, what this was is it was uh, 4380 04:32:07.920 --> 04:32:11.719 competing viewpoints of a global socialist order, you know, one 4381 04:32:11.799 --> 04:32:14.200 being the New Dealer perspective, the other being the marcis 4382 04:32:14.239 --> 04:32:19.959 leninst perspective, colluding in order to annihilate fascism and any 4383 04:32:20.000 --> 04:32:25.479 competing iteration of political order that would uh, you know, 4384 04:32:25.600 --> 04:32:29.920 come to dominate the twentieth century and in all centuries subsequent. 4385 04:32:30.680 --> 04:32:35.559 So you know what, one was not superior to the other. 4386 04:32:35.760 --> 04:32:38.319 You know, it's not like America represented the West. Contrary, 4387 04:32:38.319 --> 04:32:42.639 you know, the the alien Soviet Union or the Socialist 4388 04:32:42.680 --> 04:32:46.639 Soviet Union and America and a lot of it is 4389 04:32:46.760 --> 04:32:49.639 more insidious because it had an ability to insinuate itself 4390 04:32:50.760 --> 04:32:54.559 in the European cultural life. You know, I missed the 4391 04:32:54.639 --> 04:32:57.600 occupation regime. I mean in a way that the Soviet 4392 04:32:58.399 --> 04:33:02.319 just we're not able to. And finally, there was just 4393 04:33:02.639 --> 04:33:05.279 a difference there. There was there was a divergence of intent. 4394 04:33:05.840 --> 04:33:08.919 The Soviet Union wasn't trying to socially engineer you know, 4395 04:33:09.040 --> 04:33:11.840 white Europe out of existence, you know, I mean, yeah, 4396 04:33:11.880 --> 04:33:15.000 Marcius Leninism was a horrible system. It was brutal. It 4397 04:33:15.119 --> 04:33:19.000 persecuted people, It was hostile to religion, it was it Uh, 4398 04:33:19.599 --> 04:33:23.119 it persecuted people who were who were deemed politically unreliable. 4399 04:33:23.919 --> 04:33:27.959 It was anti human. I'm not acquitting that at all. 4400 04:33:28.759 --> 04:33:33.759 But again, it didn't aim to tear out the root 4401 04:33:34.000 --> 04:33:40.000 of cultural life and carry out uh a programmatic genocide 4402 04:33:40.119 --> 04:33:45.279 quite literally, you know, by annihilating uh, by annihilating European 4403 04:33:45.319 --> 04:33:47.759 culture at the root. And that's exactly what America aimed 4404 04:33:47.799 --> 04:33:51.759 to do, and in more concrete terms and in more 4405 04:33:51.880 --> 04:33:55.599 crude terms, not crude in terms of you know, disreputable 4406 04:33:55.720 --> 04:33:59.919 or something, but just in in kind of more basic terms. Also, 4407 04:34:00.000 --> 04:34:04.080 so you know, Yaki pointed to the Prague trials, uh, 4408 04:34:04.840 --> 04:34:06.799 the Prague trial relating to what came to be known 4409 04:34:06.799 --> 04:34:12.119 as the Doctor's plot, you know, where these twelve, these 4410 04:34:12.159 --> 04:34:16.439 twelve medical people were were tried for treason and conspiring 4411 04:34:16.520 --> 04:34:21.759 against you know, the Communist Party UH in Czechoslovakia, and 4412 04:34:21.840 --> 04:34:24.560 eleven of twelve of these people were Jews. Okay, a 4413 04:34:24.599 --> 04:34:27.200 lot of them were involved as Zionism, you know, they 4414 04:34:27.840 --> 04:34:31.000 it was obviously the Warsaw what was to become the 4415 04:34:31.040 --> 04:34:34.880 Warsaw Pact, the East Bloc. It was obviously them purging, 4416 04:34:35.240 --> 04:34:38.319 you know, the Jewish element from their leadership cast. And 4417 04:34:38.360 --> 04:34:40.880 they weren't doing it on some quote unquote racial basis 4418 04:34:41.319 --> 04:34:44.919 or some kind of sectarian basis, and their alibi was, well, 4419 04:34:45.000 --> 04:34:47.360 you know, it's it's incidental that these people are Jewish. 4420 04:34:47.520 --> 04:34:51.240 You know, we we can't abide this kind of counter 4421 04:34:51.319 --> 04:34:56.560 revolutionary treason, this activity. You know, it doesn't matter if 4422 04:34:57.119 --> 04:35:00.439 you know, it hurts people's feelings that you know, there's 4423 04:35:00.599 --> 04:35:03.840 certain certain ethnic groups are concentrated in the ranks of 4424 04:35:03.880 --> 04:35:07.959 these these undesirable elements. You know, we're gonna, we're gonna realize, 4425 04:35:08.080 --> 04:35:10.959 you know, justice no matter what. But it was obviously, 4426 04:35:11.279 --> 04:35:16.080 you know, a deliberate effort to purge Jewish influences from 4427 04:35:17.119 --> 04:35:23.599 from the ranks of the of of Fadres and in 4428 04:35:24.000 --> 04:35:26.840 in the Eastern Bloc. So if your notion is that, 4429 04:35:27.520 --> 04:35:31.000 you know, as Jackey's was, you know that that Europe 4430 04:35:31.040 --> 04:35:35.680 has to be liberated from enemy influences if it's going 4431 04:35:35.720 --> 04:35:39.799 to survive, let alone thrive. And if your idea is that, 4432 04:35:40.040 --> 04:35:42.479 you know, the traditional enemy of the West is UH, 4433 04:35:43.840 --> 04:35:48.720 you know is the Jewish dias for, and that that 4434 04:35:48.919 --> 04:35:52.439 dias for is is that their world of social existence 4435 04:35:53.880 --> 04:35:57.560 is the progenitor of UH. You know, the most the 4436 04:35:58.520 --> 04:36:04.400 the ideological tendencies most in nymical to Western survival. And finally, 4437 04:36:04.479 --> 04:36:08.360 again if if you view Europe's path to salvation and 4438 04:36:08.400 --> 04:36:12.279 paraplitical terms as you know, a concord with Moscow, I 4439 04:36:12.360 --> 04:36:16.520 mean all those things, you know, all the worlds need 4440 04:36:16.560 --> 04:36:19.479 to Moscow, if you'll allow the metaphor, I mean that 4441 04:36:19.599 --> 04:36:24.200 was Yaqui's perspective, you know, the and that's basically shouldn't 4442 04:36:24.200 --> 04:36:27.560 be controversial. I mean, the reason why the Soviet Union 4443 04:36:27.680 --> 04:36:30.599 was dangerous, the reason why it was insidious wasn't because 4444 04:36:30.639 --> 04:36:33.080 it was it was going around doing the kinds of 4445 04:36:33.200 --> 04:36:36.200 things that like the American government does today. You know, 4446 04:36:36.279 --> 04:36:39.080 it's not it wasn't trying to. It wasn't going around 4447 04:36:39.159 --> 04:36:42.080 declaring that like gender doesn't exist, or that, you know, 4448 04:36:42.240 --> 04:36:45.560 you everybody needs to breed, you know, the everybody needs 4449 04:36:45.599 --> 04:36:47.919 to breed into like one kind of like non race, 4450 04:36:48.560 --> 04:36:50.720 and you know, you know, all all all kind of 4451 04:36:50.880 --> 04:36:53.919 historical existences need to be eradicated, you know, so that 4452 04:36:54.000 --> 04:36:55.799 some kind of like equity can be achieved, or like 4453 04:36:55.919 --> 04:36:58.080 nobody has a historical memory, so we're all the same. 4454 04:36:58.360 --> 04:37:01.319 Like that that would never occur to the sol Union. Okay, 4455 04:37:03.040 --> 04:37:05.639 that doesn't make them good guys, but it makes them 4456 04:37:05.759 --> 04:37:11.119 far far less dangerous to uh, you know, racial survival 4457 04:37:11.240 --> 04:37:14.080 and and and kind of human culture in any in 4458 04:37:14.159 --> 04:37:19.319 any form than that. In America wasn't his you know, 4459 04:37:19.400 --> 04:37:21.479 and I I homatize that people that what what what 4460 04:37:21.599 --> 04:37:24.119 the American regime does today? This isn't something of like 4461 04:37:24.200 --> 04:37:26.680 recent vintage. You know, it's not like it's not like 4462 04:37:26.840 --> 04:37:29.520 the US government was like doing good things or wasn't 4463 04:37:29.599 --> 04:37:32.360 insane until like nineteen ninety or something, or until like 4464 04:37:32.400 --> 04:37:35.639 twenty sixteen, like they've always been. I mean, the New 4465 04:37:35.680 --> 04:37:39.599 Deal regime from inception, it was totally insane, and it's 4466 04:37:39.639 --> 04:37:43.959 totally insane ideas. It it was always sexually perverted. It 4467 04:37:44.360 --> 04:37:48.119 always it always wanted to eradicate people's understanding themselves as 4468 04:37:48.360 --> 04:37:56.720 as cultural you know, as culturally situated like it it uh, 4469 04:37:57.360 --> 04:38:01.360 it literally plotted to genocide Europe and you know, and 4470 04:38:01.520 --> 04:38:03.639 drafted up entire treaties. Is I don't even like the 4471 04:38:03.720 --> 04:38:06.520 sexual habits of Germans and how we can work. You 4472 04:38:06.680 --> 04:38:09.959 utilize this to undermine their potential to breed. I mean 4473 04:38:09.959 --> 04:38:13.240 they're like this really really sick stuff, you know, and 4474 04:38:13.639 --> 04:38:16.000 I mean some people can't accept that. I mean whatever, Okay, 4475 04:38:16.040 --> 04:38:18.919 if people have some like vestigial attachment to America, like 4476 04:38:19.000 --> 04:38:22.240 as a government, I I I don't care, but they're 4477 04:38:22.799 --> 04:38:25.720 they're not people I have any common cause with, and 4478 04:38:25.799 --> 04:38:29.520 I think they're incredibly diluted if they insist on retaining 4479 04:38:29.599 --> 04:38:32.680 that sensibility, will also insisting that they're somehow right ing 4480 04:38:32.880 --> 04:38:34.279 or opposed what is going on. 4481 04:38:36.560 --> 04:38:41.080 Yeah's when somebody will bring up like you'll talk about 4482 04:38:41.319 --> 04:38:44.680 I'll do cha, and somebody will post the picture of 4483 04:38:44.799 --> 04:38:48.279 him hanging upside down, and this person is like somebody 4484 04:38:48.319 --> 04:38:51.919 who's like pro America, pro you know, what would seemingly 4485 04:38:52.000 --> 04:38:54.880 be on our side. I remind them that the people 4486 04:38:54.919 --> 04:38:56.959 who did that to him are the people who are 4487 04:38:57.000 --> 04:38:59.759 ruling over you today. They're the they're the same people, 4488 04:39:00.479 --> 04:39:04.439 and you're you're just basically cheering on the people who well. 4489 04:39:04.319 --> 04:39:07.200 Yeah, yeah, it wasn't a bunch of guys. It wasn't 4490 04:39:07.240 --> 04:39:08.959 like a bunch of like good old southern guys who 4491 04:39:09.000 --> 04:39:11.279 were like, we don't like Mussolini because he's a socialist 4492 04:39:11.400 --> 04:39:13.919 and he's not keen to the Second Amendment. Like they 4493 04:39:14.000 --> 04:39:16.000 were like, yeah, they were like out and out communists. 4494 04:39:16.000 --> 04:39:18.279 I'm not just out and out communists, but you know 4495 04:39:18.319 --> 04:39:20.240 of the kind of the kind of a Dorno and 4496 04:39:20.319 --> 04:39:24.720 Gramsey type who were you know, very much quote cultural Marxists. 4497 04:39:24.720 --> 04:39:26.799 I find it to be a troubling term. I don't 4498 04:39:26.880 --> 04:39:30.680 like it. But just for the sake of coherence, you 4499 04:39:30.759 --> 04:39:33.400 know that that's that's like the verdicular. But yeah, I don't, 4500 04:39:33.919 --> 04:39:37.520 I don't, Yeah, I don't understand how. I mean, Like, 4501 04:39:37.639 --> 04:39:40.560 it's like even even if even if you've got no 4502 04:39:40.759 --> 04:39:44.880 affinity for you know, kind of like European ideological tendencies, 4503 04:39:44.959 --> 04:39:47.959 or even if you know you you don't like national 4504 04:39:48.080 --> 04:39:51.400 socialism or fascism, like if you don't like any of 4505 04:39:51.479 --> 04:39:53.919 this stuff like why why would you celebrate this destruction, 4506 04:39:54.360 --> 04:39:57.360 Like why would you celebrate like Europe being literally annihilated 4507 04:39:57.479 --> 04:40:00.599 by by uh by cop I mean this and by 4508 04:40:00.639 --> 04:40:03.319 these like crazy new dealers want to like eradicate the 4509 04:40:03.400 --> 04:40:07.040 concept of race from this planet and and and do 4510 04:40:07.319 --> 04:40:10.000 like man as some kind of like instrumentality to serve 4511 04:40:10.159 --> 04:40:13.400 like good government. I mean that's completely perverted. But like 4512 04:40:13.520 --> 04:40:16.959 I said, I think it's that there really is uh 4513 04:40:17.240 --> 04:40:23.880 like a bougie kind of fixation, like really an obsession 4514 04:40:23.919 --> 04:40:27.479 with like respectability. And there's people they want to like 4515 04:40:27.560 --> 04:40:30.520 purge them people. People are like ambitious in the wrong ways. 4516 04:40:30.799 --> 04:40:33.000 They want to like purge their own minds of like 4517 04:40:33.200 --> 04:40:36.599 unclean thoughts and and and and and and not hating 4518 04:40:36.720 --> 04:40:40.360 fascism is an unclean thought. So they try and cope 4519 04:40:40.360 --> 04:40:42.119 by saying like, yeah, like I hate the regime, but 4520 04:40:42.360 --> 04:40:44.119 you know I hate you know, Hitler even more and 4521 04:40:44.400 --> 04:40:46.599 and and that's the worst thing ever, Like I I mean, 4522 04:40:46.639 --> 04:40:49.759 I don't know, I try. I I think I'm I 4523 04:40:50.200 --> 04:40:54.240 think I'm somewhat empathetic in terms that I I'm pretty 4524 04:40:54.279 --> 04:40:56.319 good at putting myself in the position of other people. 4525 04:40:57.040 --> 04:40:59.560 I mean just in in like practical terms. I mean, 4526 04:40:59.639 --> 04:41:04.080 that's there's a heavily psychological aspect to political life, you know. 4527 04:41:06.159 --> 04:41:09.759 And so I'm not saying I've got like great insights 4528 04:41:09.880 --> 04:41:11.880 or something, but I've thought about this a lot, and 4529 04:41:11.959 --> 04:41:14.639 I believe what I just indicated is like the source 4530 04:41:14.680 --> 04:41:18.560 of a lot of that foolishness. I got another. 4531 04:41:19.080 --> 04:41:22.240 I got another question that was submitted before I do that. 4532 04:41:22.439 --> 04:41:24.799 If anybody is watching on YouTube and they want to 4533 04:41:24.840 --> 04:41:27.360 go up to the pin comment, that connects you to 4534 04:41:27.520 --> 04:41:30.439 entropy and you can do super chats there. All right, 4535 04:41:31.479 --> 04:41:34.400 someone asked you mentioned a couple of times but didn't 4536 04:41:34.439 --> 04:41:36.479 get into it. Can you do a quick overview of 4537 04:41:36.560 --> 04:41:37.520 the Red Army Faction. 4538 04:41:39.639 --> 04:41:44.159 Yeah, the Red Army Faction or the Bottom miine Hoff Gang. 4539 04:41:45.599 --> 04:41:50.200 They they were kind of unique because they were emergent 4540 04:41:50.360 --> 04:41:53.200 in night like in nineteen sixty eight. I mean a 4541 04:41:53.240 --> 04:41:58.279 lot of things happened of a revolutionary nature, including splintering 4542 04:41:58.759 --> 04:42:01.599 within the socialist camp. You know, that's when we talk 4543 04:42:01.639 --> 04:42:04.759 about cultural Marxism. That's really with under the euro Communists 4544 04:42:04.799 --> 04:42:08.040 and and socially radical element kind of split off from 4545 04:42:08.119 --> 04:42:12.959 orthodox Marxist Leninism. Well, the Bottom Meinhoff Faction they kind 4546 04:42:13.000 --> 04:42:16.240 of had one foot in both camps. And as it 4547 04:42:16.360 --> 04:42:20.599 turned out, they were very much a client, uh actor 4548 04:42:21.279 --> 04:42:26.639 of UH the Eastern Ministry, Ministry for State Security, and 4549 04:42:26.680 --> 04:42:28.599 they were they were very much kind of like the Branchell, 4550 04:42:28.680 --> 04:42:32.040 the Marcus Wolf, who was an incredibly dangerous individual and 4551 04:42:32.159 --> 04:42:35.639 he was the best intelligence man that Warsaw Facts had, 4552 04:42:35.759 --> 04:42:40.720 in my opinion, in he's the best intelligence man and 4553 04:42:40.799 --> 04:42:43.720 the best intelligence organization probably field by anybody in the 4554 04:42:43.799 --> 04:42:49.720 Cold War. But the bottom Mine Off faction they uh, 4555 04:42:51.000 --> 04:42:55.040 their their notion was to basically render the Buddhist Republic 4556 04:42:55.200 --> 04:43:00.639 ungovernable through terrorist activity, you know, just in kind of 4557 04:43:00.680 --> 04:43:04.159 conventional the kind of conventional terms that that nacate the 4558 04:43:04.200 --> 04:43:06.520 actors under arms, especially during the Cold War, like going 4559 04:43:06.560 --> 04:43:09.840 to the unique paradigm they're in like proceeded. But they 4560 04:43:09.959 --> 04:43:12.880 also that was during the period when uh, you know, 4561 04:43:13.000 --> 04:43:17.639 Billy Brandt was uh was seeking genuine reconciliation with East Germany, 4562 04:43:19.599 --> 04:43:24.560 and UH the idea was uh, it was, it was, 4563 04:43:24.639 --> 04:43:26.439 it was. It was very layered, okay, because on the 4564 04:43:26.520 --> 04:43:29.639 one hand, UH, on the one hand, the idea was 4565 04:43:29.799 --> 04:43:32.560 very simply like strike a blow against you know, like 4566 04:43:32.639 --> 04:43:37.080 America and the and uh and the bundes and UH 4567 04:43:37.400 --> 04:43:41.720 and and and sympathetic forces you know, within the Federal Republic. 4568 04:43:42.200 --> 04:43:44.799 But secondly, it also gave people like Brandt like an 4569 04:43:44.880 --> 04:43:48.200 alibi like, see, these are extremes, you know, we have 4570 04:43:48.319 --> 04:43:51.279 We're nothing like them. You know, we want an approachment 4571 04:43:51.400 --> 04:43:53.520 with the d d R and the Soviet Union for Peace. 4572 04:43:53.599 --> 04:43:55.520 So this kind of thing will no longer be happening 4573 04:43:56.080 --> 04:44:00.720 like which is really kind of brilliant. But they they 4574 04:44:00.759 --> 04:44:05.680 were very effective and they uh, they had they had 4575 04:44:05.720 --> 04:44:08.479 substantial contacts with a Popular Front for the Liberation of 4576 04:44:08.560 --> 04:44:15.279 Palestine General Command. They uh, I think they probably were uh. 4577 04:44:16.360 --> 04:44:18.880 I think they probably had contacts with the Provisional IRA, 4578 04:44:18.919 --> 04:44:21.840 although some people the ass debatable and I don't want 4579 04:44:21.840 --> 04:44:23.400 to I don't want to start some sort of argument 4580 04:44:23.479 --> 04:44:27.479 with people who have those kinds of sympathies. But that 4581 04:44:27.599 --> 04:44:30.040 was basically the Red Army faction and they folded their 4582 04:44:30.119 --> 04:44:34.040 flag like officially in nineteen ninety I mean, which which 4583 04:44:34.119 --> 04:44:36.279 goes to show and people acting like this was strange 4584 04:44:36.319 --> 04:44:39.880 at the time, but I mean the Epochet it should 4585 04:44:39.880 --> 04:44:41.639 have made sense that it's like, well, I mean, these 4586 04:44:42.479 --> 04:44:45.040 this isn't some fake organization. I mean they hit. They 4587 04:44:45.080 --> 04:44:48.279 did have grassroots support, especially among you know, the student 4588 04:44:48.360 --> 04:44:52.840 population and younger people, but they very much were like 4589 04:44:53.240 --> 04:44:55.840 at operational terms, they were very much like an organ 4590 04:44:55.919 --> 04:45:00.159 of the Sazi and horse to Maller interestingly, u uh, 4591 04:45:00.720 --> 04:45:08.040 he wasn't a direct action element within the bottom Minehoff gang, 4592 04:45:08.479 --> 04:45:10.599 but he was a lawyer who worked closely with them. 4593 04:45:11.439 --> 04:45:13.599 He became he ended up going to prison for quote 4594 04:45:13.639 --> 04:45:17.200 Holocaust denial and quote promoting racial hatred, you know, a 4595 04:45:17.279 --> 04:45:20.639 few years back. And because like immediately after the wall 4596 04:45:20.759 --> 04:45:23.680 came down, like he he took up with the the NPD, 4597 04:45:24.400 --> 04:45:28.639 you know, which is the legacy party of the Socialist Party. 4598 04:45:30.360 --> 04:45:32.119 So I mean there you go, and like people like 4599 04:45:32.240 --> 04:45:37.840 their Spiegel, which says incredibly stupid things with alarming regularity. 4600 04:45:38.319 --> 04:45:40.200 They were like, see this man's insane. He was a 4601 04:45:40.240 --> 04:45:43.159 communist and now he's anti Semitic. But it's like anybody 4602 04:45:43.240 --> 04:45:45.240 with like a fucking brain, Like it's like we're just 4603 04:45:45.360 --> 04:45:49.200 like explicated about you know, uh, why a pro Soviet 4604 04:45:49.279 --> 04:45:52.680 disposition is what any like you know, quote unquote neo 4605 04:45:52.759 --> 04:45:56.200 fascist would basically you know, be be disposed to. I 4606 04:45:56.279 --> 04:46:00.159 mean that's and I that that's I mean that that 4607 04:46:00.799 --> 04:46:02.840 it's just a case in point. I mean, it shouldn't 4608 04:46:02.840 --> 04:46:05.919 surprise anybody, but I they they were interesting. They were 4609 04:46:05.959 --> 04:46:10.439 an interesting case and an interesting element within the Cold War. 4610 04:46:10.560 --> 04:46:13.840 But that's the good film about him, called The Bottom 4611 04:46:13.959 --> 04:46:16.479 Off Complex. I highly recommend it. It's got Bruno gans 4612 04:46:16.520 --> 04:46:19.520 and it's Bruno Ganz. He's the guy who played Adolf 4613 04:46:19.599 --> 04:46:21.279 Hitler in Dirt Untergang. 4614 04:46:23.639 --> 04:46:27.479 All right, Uh, Muzio Savola over here, five dollars super chat. 4615 04:46:27.560 --> 04:46:30.200 What does Thomas think of Stalin's War by McMeekin. 4616 04:46:30.919 --> 04:46:31.479 Have you read it? 4617 04:46:32.200 --> 04:46:37.759 Yeah, it's it's shockfull of data and that data is 4618 04:46:37.840 --> 04:46:43.439 well sourced. Other than that, I it's it's typical court 4619 04:46:43.599 --> 04:46:49.400 history that was written in deliberate uh Houstle dialogue with 4620 04:46:49.639 --> 04:46:53.439 uh with Suvarov and Yackham Hoffman, and it came out 4621 04:46:53.479 --> 04:46:57.680 at the same time as Hoffman's book Memory Serves. You know, 4622 04:46:57.840 --> 04:47:02.319 it's just the the implication. Obviously, somehow the Soviet Union 4623 04:47:02.360 --> 04:47:05.840 created the world's first like truly modern like warfare state. 4624 04:47:06.200 --> 04:47:08.639 It created like the mightiest war machine the world has 4625 04:47:08.720 --> 04:47:12.520 ever seen, arguably will ever see. Yet this was exclusively 4626 04:47:12.599 --> 04:47:15.319 for peaceful purposes or for no reason? You know, when 4627 04:47:15.319 --> 04:47:18.439 the Germans attacked for no reason because they're evil. I mean, 4628 04:47:18.520 --> 04:47:23.639 that's I mean that. I maybe it's just me becoming 4629 04:47:23.720 --> 04:47:25.479 cantanker as an old but I think it's just me 4630 04:47:25.639 --> 04:47:29.639 becoming a more rigorous and discriminating historical writer and researcher. 4631 04:47:31.279 --> 04:47:36.400 Anybody who accepts that conceptual narrative is it taints the 4632 04:47:36.639 --> 04:47:40.639 entire rest of their research, even if they're facts and 4633 04:47:40.680 --> 04:47:43.680 their data, like the rot data is good and well, 4634 04:47:43.959 --> 04:47:45.759 so it's nothing wrong with citing those kinds of sources. 4635 04:47:46.400 --> 04:47:48.840 And I'm sure people who dislike me or dislike the 4636 04:47:48.919 --> 04:47:51.040 kinds of things that right will turn around and say, like, well, 4637 04:47:51.639 --> 04:47:54.599 you know, you're just you're abolishing the fact value distinction 4638 04:47:54.680 --> 04:47:56.959 in your own way, and you know you're you're reducing 4639 04:47:56.959 --> 04:48:01.000 a history of polemic No, I'm not, But you don't 4640 04:48:01.040 --> 04:48:03.919 have to be like pro fascists or anything to accept that. 4641 04:48:05.840 --> 04:48:08.959 The Soviet Union was what I just said. It was 4642 04:48:09.040 --> 04:48:13.439 the first fully realized warfare state that was totally mobilized 4643 04:48:13.520 --> 04:48:16.840 for war. It was animated by a doctrine of revolutionary 4644 04:48:16.959 --> 04:48:21.400 warfare and exporting revolution, and it was the single most 4645 04:48:22.799 --> 04:48:26.279 powerful military actor on the world stage. On the eve 4646 04:48:26.319 --> 04:48:30.639 of Barbarossa. And this is the only way to understand 4647 04:48:30.720 --> 04:48:33.400 the Second World War that was, that was the catalyst, 4648 04:48:34.439 --> 04:48:41.720 you know, And as any military type will tell you, capabilities, 4649 04:48:42.000 --> 04:48:45.400 let alone forces and being are not are never benign. 4650 04:48:46.240 --> 04:48:48.040 You know, they only have one purpose, and that is 4651 04:48:48.119 --> 04:48:51.479 to wage war. And the capability to weigh. The capability 4652 04:48:51.560 --> 04:48:56.279 to wage war equates to power in uh it most 4653 04:48:56.319 --> 04:49:02.319 distilled sense and is the currency of politics. That's the 4654 04:49:02.400 --> 04:49:07.959 only currency olypics. Everything else is drestling. So I state 4655 04:49:08.119 --> 04:49:11.240 that is always such a degree as the Soviet Union was. 4656 04:49:11.759 --> 04:49:13.439 Not only is it never tweet be nine, it is 4657 04:49:13.479 --> 04:49:14.799 actually the precise opposite. 4658 04:49:16.560 --> 04:49:20.159 So Jmr Cowboy asked, was that the same Red Army 4659 04:49:20.240 --> 04:49:22.319 wrangles White Army fought against or. 4660 04:49:22.319 --> 04:49:23.200 A different one. 4661 04:49:25.400 --> 04:49:27.000 What we're talking about the Red Army faction. 4662 04:49:29.040 --> 04:49:31.479 That's what I'll wait and see, but I'm gonna take that. 4663 04:49:32.080 --> 04:49:32.919 I'll take a question. 4664 04:49:33.759 --> 04:49:36.279 I'll take a question off of off of Twitter from 4665 04:49:36.360 --> 04:49:39.639 under your Europe posts, he said, So, I would like 4666 04:49:39.759 --> 04:49:45.200 to hear mention of a James Gregor brought up in 4667 04:49:45.279 --> 04:49:50.040 Faces a Janus the possibility that instead of Gorbachev, the 4668 04:49:50.119 --> 04:49:52.799 USSR would end up with a version of what basically 4669 04:49:52.880 --> 04:49:54.439 could be called Russian fascism. 4670 04:49:56.319 --> 04:50:01.840 Yeah, I don't accept that, and Russia's conceptual pole stars 4671 04:50:01.880 --> 04:50:04.119 are totally different. That's why I try to explain to 4672 04:50:04.200 --> 04:50:08.400 people when Moscow talks about you know, when when Moscow 4673 04:50:08.479 --> 04:50:11.400 calls its enemies Nazis. I mean, first of all, Ukrainians 4674 04:50:11.439 --> 04:50:14.400 are are idiots, So I mean they they they'll they'll 4675 04:50:14.439 --> 04:50:16.919 run around like slaughtering slobs and the order with some 4676 04:50:17.040 --> 04:50:19.159 like crazy jew and claim they're doing it like for 4677 04:50:19.200 --> 04:50:21.959 the white race or something, because they're they're fucking crazy 4678 04:50:22.000 --> 04:50:27.439 and they're morons. But beyond that, the uh, the Russians 4679 04:50:27.479 --> 04:50:30.759 lost thirty million people fighting the Third Reich. So like 4680 04:50:31.119 --> 04:50:34.279 they they're they're they call people Nazis and fascists as 4681 04:50:34.319 --> 04:50:37.000 like a stand in for enemy. It's not because like 4682 04:50:37.240 --> 04:50:40.360 they're they're pink haired, fat girls who are into like lesbianism. 4683 04:50:40.439 --> 04:50:42.799 It's not because they're it's not. It's not because they're 4684 04:50:42.840 --> 04:50:45.599 like a bunch of crazy Jewish people. It's not. It's 4685 04:50:45.639 --> 04:50:48.759 not because you know, they they listen to dead Kennedy's records. 4686 04:50:49.080 --> 04:50:55.240 Like it makes conceptual sense the way a kind of 4687 04:50:55.360 --> 04:50:59.439 a kind of nationalist authoritarian Russia that would definitely be possible, 4688 04:51:01.599 --> 04:51:05.080 but it wouldn't It wouldn't look like it would It 4689 04:51:05.119 --> 04:51:09.080 wouldn't look like Mussolini's Italy, did you know, transpose the 4690 04:51:09.119 --> 04:51:11.599 twenty first century, and it wouldn't even look like uh, 4691 04:51:11.919 --> 04:51:14.479 it wouldn't even look like this, you know, the Syrian 4692 04:51:14.599 --> 04:51:17.840 bath rule in Syria. Like it'd be like weirdly Russian. 4693 04:51:18.520 --> 04:51:22.319 Its optics would even if only superficially, be very much 4694 04:51:22.400 --> 04:51:30.439 bound up with Orthodox Christianity. The uh, the uh. The 4695 04:51:30.560 --> 04:51:33.759 military would have disproportionate clout, you know, more than like 4696 04:51:33.919 --> 04:51:36.000 you know, the political cast, which would kind of like 4697 04:51:36.080 --> 04:51:40.319 neutralize any like truly political projects of an ongoing nature, 4698 04:51:40.840 --> 04:51:42.959 you know, Like it'd be it'd be kind of like 4699 04:51:43.840 --> 04:51:45.720 it'd be kind of like ten miles wide and like 4700 04:51:45.840 --> 04:51:48.520 one inch thick. Okay, Like it's not to say it 4701 04:51:48.599 --> 04:51:50.400 be like a weak state, but I'm talking in terms 4702 04:51:50.439 --> 04:51:52.959 of like an ideological chalist there just like wouldn't be 4703 04:51:53.080 --> 04:51:56.080 much there, Okay. I think Russia is Frankly, I think 4704 04:51:56.119 --> 04:51:59.599 when Putin goes, either because he dies or or he 4705 04:51:59.680 --> 04:52:02.720 actually finds a successor that you're not in Russia can 4706 04:52:02.840 --> 04:52:05.880 live with, That's probably what you're going to have Okay, 4707 04:52:06.000 --> 04:52:09.119 but it's not. It's not gonna be it's not gonna 4708 04:52:09.119 --> 04:52:12.560 be fascistic in any meaningful way. And it's not it's 4709 04:52:12.599 --> 04:52:16.319 not gonna be some weird like Eurasianism like Alexander Dugan 4710 04:52:16.439 --> 04:52:19.279 like fantasizes about, like this is not that would have 4711 04:52:19.400 --> 04:52:22.159 no currency, you know, and and if there's something like 4712 04:52:22.159 --> 04:52:25.240 they had to take off the former Soviet republics in 4713 04:52:25.279 --> 04:52:27.959 Central Asia, like the stands to be kind of colloquial 4714 04:52:28.040 --> 04:52:30.799 and like dumb about it, like they'd have to be 4715 04:52:30.880 --> 04:52:34.319 looking to Moscow for their cues like culturally, politically, and 4716 04:52:34.360 --> 04:52:37.639 and and strategically, and they're like not doing that at all, 4717 04:52:38.159 --> 04:52:41.040 you know, Like Eurasianism doesn't have any legs, you know, 4718 04:52:41.080 --> 04:52:43.840 like it's like something cool that Russians like to talk about, 4719 04:52:43.919 --> 04:52:46.400 and that it's like as a thought experiment. It's certainly 4720 04:52:46.520 --> 04:52:49.880 like not impossible, but that the Eurasian moment was the 4721 04:52:49.959 --> 04:52:52.680 Soviet Union, okay, and like that's gone, it's not ever 4722 04:52:52.759 --> 04:52:53.279 coming back. 4723 04:52:55.959 --> 04:53:00.119 Here's another question from Twitter. How brutal was so Vi 4724 04:53:00.240 --> 04:53:03.200 occupation of Eastern Europe. It always seemed to me that 4725 04:53:03.319 --> 04:53:06.040 Stalin's crimes from the post war era get brushed over 4726 04:53:06.159 --> 04:53:07.639 by mainstream historians. 4727 04:53:08.840 --> 04:53:11.119 No, that's a great question. And yeah, I saw that 4728 04:53:11.360 --> 04:53:13.799 on my timeline earlier this morning, and it was stuck 4729 04:53:13.840 --> 04:53:20.680 in my mind. There were the true true Soviet brutality, 4730 04:53:20.799 --> 04:53:24.680 true communist brutality in the Soviet Union as well as 4731 04:53:24.759 --> 04:53:29.959 in the states that emulated the Soviet Union reached zenith 4732 04:53:30.000 --> 04:53:34.240 and the revolutionary phase. Uh Soviet Union exterminated around ten 4733 04:53:34.279 --> 04:53:36.520 million people before a shot was fired in the Second 4734 04:53:36.560 --> 04:53:39.799 World War. You know, these were political unreliables, These were 4735 04:53:39.840 --> 04:53:43.639 ethnic groups that the regime didn't like. You know, these 4736 04:53:43.680 --> 04:53:47.880 were people who, as kind McDonald exhaustively researched and pointed 4737 04:53:47.919 --> 04:53:52.680 out in his paper Stalins Willing Executioners, which was very 4738 04:53:52.720 --> 04:53:55.119 cleverly returning to serve a Goldhagen. You know, when you 4739 04:53:55.319 --> 04:53:59.759 something like seventy percent of the NKVD like direct action 4740 04:54:00.080 --> 04:54:03.040 meant was Jewish during like the the the height of 4741 04:54:03.080 --> 04:54:05.479 the revolutionary phase. And these people were just like suddenly 4742 04:54:05.479 --> 04:54:07.479 account so like people they didn't like, you know, whether 4743 04:54:07.520 --> 04:54:10.080 they were Kulos, whether they were like you know, Belarusians, 4744 04:54:10.119 --> 04:54:13.080 whether you know, they there were people who you know 4745 04:54:13.720 --> 04:54:18.720 a lot of radicalized, very very vicious, you know, Jewish 4746 04:54:18.759 --> 04:54:24.319 people under arms didn't like, I mean, this was what 4747 04:54:24.560 --> 04:54:27.840 it was was it was neither it was neither truly organized, 4748 04:54:27.919 --> 04:54:31.599 nor was it truly scattershot. But that's that's really where 4749 04:54:31.599 --> 04:54:34.680 the bodies got stacked up. And there really wasn't there. 4750 04:54:34.799 --> 04:54:39.240 There truly was as a rubber conquest documented you know, 4751 04:54:39.319 --> 04:54:42.959 a Soviet death camp system. I'm not being colloquial or 4752 04:54:43.200 --> 04:54:48.439 using you know, hysterical language or something. They're really brutal aspects, 4753 04:54:50.880 --> 04:54:56.360 programmatic aspects. After the Day of Defeat in nineteen forty five, 4754 04:54:58.400 --> 04:55:02.599 the uh, then the uh, the American authorities were just 4755 04:55:02.680 --> 04:55:06.119 as bad, you know, they uh, they starved out millions 4756 04:55:06.159 --> 04:55:09.880 of Germans. Was endemic, you know, and and and and 4757 04:55:10.080 --> 04:55:12.560 and and if not encouraged, you know, like just just 4758 04:55:12.720 --> 04:55:15.759 tolerated more than tacitly. You know. The the Morgans out 4759 04:55:15.799 --> 04:55:18.799 plan in a sense very much was implemented, although not 4760 04:55:19.040 --> 04:55:22.720 realized to its full event as a vision owing to 4761 04:55:22.840 --> 04:55:29.200 the strategic situation. But I'd say back to your question 4762 04:55:29.880 --> 04:55:32.479 and the kind of four corners of it, the uh, 4763 04:55:32.560 --> 04:55:37.000 the force population transfers, the literal ethnic cleansing from and 4764 04:55:37.639 --> 04:55:40.680 you know of millions of German people from lands that 4765 04:55:40.759 --> 04:55:43.439 they had occupied in some cases for a thousand years. 4766 04:55:45.080 --> 04:55:49.759 That was very much something Washington encouraged in some ways 4767 04:55:50.080 --> 04:55:54.319 participated in the planning of directly, but operationally it was 4768 04:55:54.400 --> 04:55:58.040 the Soviet army and and and police who made that happen. 4769 04:55:59.560 --> 04:56:03.439 My opinion is that's the most uh kinda that's gone 4770 04:56:03.479 --> 04:56:05.880 of the most like that's the strongest example of like 4771 04:56:06.000 --> 04:56:10.520 naked brutality. And I mean people will come back and say, like, well, 4772 04:56:11.360 --> 04:56:16.959 you know, the the Germans were ethnically cleansing you know, uh, 4773 04:56:17.799 --> 04:56:20.240 the Soviet Union, and they were, but it was a 4774 04:56:20.360 --> 04:56:25.560 race war, okay, And there's a difference between that sort 4775 04:56:25.599 --> 04:56:28.680 of activity underway terrible as it is, it's into a 4776 04:56:28.720 --> 04:56:34.360 total war and you know, just perpetuating a programmatic campaign 4777 04:56:34.439 --> 04:56:37.840 of ethnic violence after a cessation of hostilities. You know, 4778 04:56:37.959 --> 04:56:41.080 there's I I don't really think that the latter can 4779 04:56:41.159 --> 04:56:46.200 be justified in any absolute sense. And it's it's not 4780 04:56:47.119 --> 04:56:50.599 it's what about ism o. But the Germans did bad 4781 04:56:50.720 --> 04:56:53.680 things as any place. And also finally, and I know 4782 04:56:53.880 --> 04:56:56.880 nobody asked, but I'm gonna see way my own take. Anyway, 4783 04:56:57.360 --> 04:57:00.200 you know, if you're a man of the West, and 4784 04:57:00.360 --> 04:57:04.599 if you're pro white and if you want your race 4785 04:57:04.680 --> 04:57:07.959 to survive, you even if, even if the Third Wig 4786 04:57:08.119 --> 04:57:10.840 was literally the most evil regime that ever existed, you 4787 04:57:10.880 --> 04:57:13.560 don't you don't. You don't cheer on the ethnic cleansing 4788 04:57:13.680 --> 04:57:16.479 of your own people. I mean, this is this is 4789 04:57:16.680 --> 04:57:21.040 uh brass tax stuff, you know, and one doesn't need 4790 04:57:21.080 --> 04:57:24.799 to be something of died in the little Machiavellian to 4791 04:57:25.000 --> 04:57:30.599 understand aside from that that, uh, you know, politics power, 4792 04:57:30.720 --> 04:57:34.599 politics does take place somewhere beyond beyond a good and 4793 04:57:34.799 --> 04:57:39.119 evil if you'll allow the overused you know kind of 4794 04:57:40.479 --> 04:57:42.080 kind of reference. 4795 04:57:44.439 --> 04:57:49.279 So you've got a question here, what was the deal 4796 04:57:49.319 --> 04:57:51.639 with the Rosenbergs. You said you'd talk about them in 4797 04:57:51.759 --> 04:57:53.439 one episode, but never got around to it. 4798 04:57:54.479 --> 04:58:01.880 I totally forgot about that. Yeah, no, we can. I 4799 04:58:01.959 --> 04:58:05.759 thought about having like just a dedicated like atomic age episode, 4800 04:58:05.880 --> 04:58:10.599 you know, like beginning with the proliferation of the bomb 4801 04:58:10.680 --> 04:58:13.319 in nineteen forty nine, forty eight, forty nine, you know, 4802 04:58:13.439 --> 04:58:18.000 going through the the early Cold War and the New 4803 04:58:18.119 --> 04:58:21.400 Look and and you know kind of when when when 4804 04:58:21.439 --> 04:58:24.400 every everybody in the national security of Paratus had like 4805 04:58:24.560 --> 04:58:28.360 you know, atomic weapons on the brain, like through you know, deatons, 4806 04:58:28.400 --> 04:58:32.000 and then finally SDI the Rosenbergs are basically what they 4807 04:58:32.040 --> 04:58:38.200 appeared to be. I think, uh, I certainly don't. They 4808 04:58:38.279 --> 04:58:42.200 certainly should have been executed. I think, uh, at least 4809 04:58:42.279 --> 04:58:45.759 Julius Rosenberg. I think Ethel Rosenberg wasn't like I'm not 4810 04:58:45.840 --> 04:58:47.919 I'm not saying she was just like a stupid woman 4811 04:58:48.040 --> 04:58:51.200 or something. There's plenty of women, particularly in radical politics 4812 04:58:51.279 --> 04:58:54.759 through wherever he's smart and very dangerous. I think Ethel 4813 04:58:54.840 --> 04:58:56.520 Rosenberg was not one of those. I think she was 4814 04:58:56.560 --> 04:58:58.799 kind of along for the ride. Okay, that doesn't excuse 4815 04:58:58.840 --> 04:59:02.520 her whole liability. But Julius Rosenberg, he was kind of 4816 04:59:02.560 --> 04:59:06.319 like an Orthodox like Jewish radical. Not Orthodox Jewish, I mean, 4817 04:59:06.360 --> 04:59:10.200 like an Orthodox radical who was Jewish. But he I 4818 04:59:10.400 --> 04:59:15.840 think I think in some ways though his from what 4819 04:59:16.119 --> 04:59:20.799 by from his own testimony, just to his own intimate, 4820 04:59:20.799 --> 04:59:23.240 it's not under oath or anything, I believe his notion 4821 04:59:23.479 --> 04:59:25.759 was somewhat like that of Chris boys the guy who's 4822 04:59:25.759 --> 04:59:28.599 the subject of The Falcon and the Snowman, although Boyce 4823 04:59:28.639 --> 04:59:32.200 obviously is a far more sympathetic character. I believe, aside 4824 04:59:32.240 --> 04:59:36.799 from Rosenberg's own kind of socialist leanings, he believed in 4825 04:59:36.959 --> 04:59:39.720 order for stability to reign you know, the burgening kind 4826 04:59:39.759 --> 04:59:45.200 of bipolar system and prevent you know, the honset of 4827 04:59:45.240 --> 04:59:48.919 another round of of of of just massive you know, 4828 04:59:49.840 --> 04:59:54.200 interstate violence. There would have to be you know, a 4829 04:59:54.279 --> 04:59:57.520 true balance of forces between the superpowers, and that can 4830 04:59:57.560 --> 05:00:01.520 only be achieved if if, uh if Moscow had the 4831 05:00:01.599 --> 05:00:04.319 mom you know. And again, like I said, like I 4832 05:00:04.560 --> 05:00:06.880 he didn't say this in open quart or something, or 4833 05:00:07.560 --> 05:00:11.599 you know, he didn't he didn't raise us to the judge, 4834 05:00:11.680 --> 05:00:13.599 you know, in the hopes that he'd be spared the gallows. 4835 05:00:13.840 --> 05:00:15.880 These kinds of things he said to like his friends, 4836 05:00:16.319 --> 05:00:22.159 you know, like reading between the lines. H m. That 4837 05:00:22.400 --> 05:00:26.599 was why the Rosenbergers became these kinds why the Rosenbergers 4838 05:00:26.639 --> 05:00:29.279 became these people who were held out by the usual 4839 05:00:29.400 --> 05:00:32.799 suspects that see this, this horrible anti semitic lynching of 4840 05:00:32.880 --> 05:00:35.200 these people. That's incredibly weird because they're about the least 4841 05:00:35.240 --> 05:00:39.520 sympathetic defendants I can think of. But that's there's like 4842 05:00:39.639 --> 05:00:41.759 not really anything there. I mean, it's like Leo Frank, 4843 05:00:41.880 --> 05:00:45.240 like like Leo Frank was uh, Leo Leo Frank was 4844 05:00:45.279 --> 05:00:48.159 a child molester and a murderer, But like you're supposed 4845 05:00:48.159 --> 05:00:51.159 to feel bad that he got lynched, because apparently it 4846 05:00:51.240 --> 05:00:53.520 was like terrible that this guy who like victimized the 4847 05:00:53.520 --> 05:00:55.919 little kids got lynched. I know, I don't know, I 4848 05:00:55.919 --> 05:01:00.240 don't quite understand that, but it's something, uh it goes 4849 05:01:00.240 --> 05:01:02.439 to some of the kind of like moral bankruptcy of 4850 05:01:02.479 --> 05:01:05.400 the of the people who who come to the defense 4851 05:01:05.439 --> 05:01:08.279 of these of these personages and history. Like I'm not, 4852 05:01:08.400 --> 05:01:10.680 I'm not saying that like lynching is good. I mean, 4853 05:01:10.680 --> 05:01:12.759 he's a frank I mean, I I believe in due 4854 05:01:12.799 --> 05:01:15.840 process in a real sense, but I also don't feel 4855 05:01:15.919 --> 05:01:19.479 bad if child molesters and people will harm children get killed, Okay, 4856 05:01:19.560 --> 05:01:22.479 And anybody who makes it out like this is some terrible, 4857 05:01:23.599 --> 05:01:27.959 you know, terrible instance of uh of of of rough justice. 4858 05:01:29.040 --> 05:01:30.799 I mean, I'm not, I'm not And I'm not comparing 4859 05:01:30.840 --> 05:01:33.279 selling nuclear secrets some listing kids at all, like they 4860 05:01:33.319 --> 05:01:36.799 have nothing at all in common, Okay, And I can 4861 05:01:36.840 --> 05:01:41.400 easily see myself like Pat passing nuclear secrets, not the ivan, 4862 05:01:41.639 --> 05:01:44.880 but uh, you know, and the last man is gonna 4863 05:01:44.880 --> 05:01:47.680 sit here and and and I like fucking prissy about 4864 05:01:47.759 --> 05:01:51.479 such things. But you know, if there's in the modern 4865 05:01:51.520 --> 05:01:54.319 era there's really no clear case of high treason than 4866 05:01:54.360 --> 05:01:58.080 what the Rosenberg did and what the Rosenbergs did, except 4867 05:01:58.119 --> 05:02:00.639 maybe for the Cambridge five just in terms of they 4868 05:02:00.639 --> 05:02:05.919 share kind of like gravity of of of their ongoing espionage. 4869 05:02:06.040 --> 05:02:09.400 But yeah, there you go. I realized that was long winded. 4870 05:02:09.479 --> 05:02:11.400 But the short answer is like, there's there's nothing there. 4871 05:02:11.720 --> 05:02:13.880 It's exactly what it appears to be. You're supposed to 4872 05:02:13.880 --> 05:02:17.119 feel bad for Jewish communists for some reason because you know, 4873 05:02:17.360 --> 05:02:20.479 any anytime they face consequences, it's because of med anti 4874 05:02:20.560 --> 05:02:21.599 Semitism or something. 4875 05:02:22.560 --> 05:02:22.680 Right. 4876 05:02:24.200 --> 05:02:26.639 I just want to remind people that in the pinned 4877 05:02:27.040 --> 05:02:30.040 comment and the chat there, you can do super chats 4878 05:02:30.080 --> 05:02:33.520 over on entropy. But let's get another question from Twitter. 4879 05:02:34.439 --> 05:02:37.279 In one episode, you mentioned the Marine Corps and Air 4880 05:02:37.360 --> 05:02:40.279 Force were able to adapt to Vietnam but not the Army. 4881 05:02:40.639 --> 05:02:47.840 Can you elaborate, sure, that's a great question. The Air 4882 05:02:47.919 --> 05:02:50.599 Force was interesting and it was very dynamic in that era. 4883 05:02:50.720 --> 05:02:56.520 We'll started the Air Force first, okay, they became an 4884 05:02:56.560 --> 05:03:00.159 independent service branch. People like Billy Mitchell even before or 4885 05:03:00.520 --> 05:03:04.200 you know, the Second World War. I pushed for that because, uh, 4886 05:03:05.479 --> 05:03:08.119 there was an understanding that you know Army thinking had 4887 05:03:08.159 --> 05:03:10.919 become kind of stagnant, Okay. And also it's just the 4888 05:03:11.040 --> 05:03:14.840 Army was not particularly carptible with with with new technology. 4889 05:03:15.599 --> 05:03:18.159 They just weren't. That's not a polemical take, that's a fact. 4890 05:03:19.279 --> 05:03:23.439 But it's also too it was like the the science 4891 05:03:23.479 --> 05:03:26.639 of aviation, and particularly military aviation, it was something everybody 4892 05:03:26.759 --> 05:03:29.119 was learning by doing. You know, like when Curtis Lamay 4893 05:03:29.200 --> 05:03:33.479 first started flying and you know in the Inner Warriors, Uh, 4894 05:03:33.759 --> 05:03:37.119 that's when pilots were still like flying by like visual 4895 05:03:37.279 --> 05:03:40.560 sight of like you know, terrestrial land features and things, 4896 05:03:41.159 --> 05:03:42.639 you know, and trying to match it up to like 4897 05:03:42.680 --> 05:03:49.240 a paper map. Okay. Now, the Earth Force obviously by 4898 05:03:49.439 --> 05:03:52.759 uh by the time via but by the time the 4899 05:03:53.279 --> 05:03:58.799 real escalation got underway in Vietnam in sixty five, the 4900 05:03:59.000 --> 05:04:05.319 UH there was uh, you know, the Air Force. Uh. 4901 05:04:07.080 --> 05:04:10.959 They'd been their bread and butter was Strategic Air Command. 4902 05:04:11.639 --> 05:04:13.880 And that also is what they owed not just their 4903 05:04:13.959 --> 05:04:18.759 lobbying power too, but also there kind of pre eminent 4904 05:04:19.360 --> 05:04:23.720 position in in the UH, in the kind of American 4905 05:04:23.799 --> 05:04:29.880 defense establishment structure, they were able to pretty rapidly repurpose 4906 05:04:30.040 --> 05:04:36.159 to a conventional role. But a conventional role that was Uh, 4907 05:04:37.119 --> 05:04:40.599 it was difficult to realize. You know, these arc light bombers, 4908 05:04:40.639 --> 05:04:46.159 these BFFD two's, those were those were purpose those were 4909 05:04:46.240 --> 05:04:50.560 those were those were purpose to attack with nuclear weapons, okay, 4910 05:04:50.599 --> 05:04:57.279 and a strategic capacity switching them to a conventional repurposing 4911 05:04:57.279 --> 05:05:02.040 them to a conventional role, you know, in a conflict 4912 05:05:02.119 --> 05:05:07.639 like Vietnam where frankly until uh, you know, nineteen seventy two, 4913 05:05:08.240 --> 05:05:11.279 you didn't even really have like through combin or of 4914 05:05:11.360 --> 05:05:14.159 set piece battles where they could really kind of shine 4915 05:05:15.479 --> 05:05:17.599 the fact that they were able to, you know, kind 4916 05:05:17.639 --> 05:05:21.439 of wreak so much havoc on uh, the ability of 4917 05:05:21.479 --> 05:05:25.479 the North Vietnamese uh, not just reconstitute forces, but you know, 4918 05:05:25.639 --> 05:05:29.000 to uh sustain infrastructure, not just command and control, but 4919 05:05:29.560 --> 05:05:32.240 you know any any know, all kind of basic infrastructure 4920 05:05:32.279 --> 05:05:36.560 relating to the war effort. That's pretty remarkable. And it's 4921 05:05:36.599 --> 05:05:41.639 also the uh it was more more naval aviators, but 4922 05:05:42.159 --> 05:05:45.799 some air force aviators too. They got engaged over the 4923 05:05:45.880 --> 05:05:51.520 battlespace tactically, and uh, Vietnamese pilots are pretty good and 4924 05:05:51.639 --> 05:05:55.119 you're obviously we're Soviet pilots like flying sorties too. As 4925 05:05:55.119 --> 05:05:57.319 it brought dog fighting back, you know that that's the 4926 05:05:57.319 --> 05:06:01.599 all reason why why uh why you know Tagle Air 4927 05:06:01.639 --> 05:06:05.240 Command like uh, you know, got got a boom and 4928 05:06:05.319 --> 05:06:07.720 that's why. Uh, And that's why in the naval side, 4929 05:06:07.840 --> 05:06:10.119 like you know, top gun got created in the first place. 4930 05:06:10.720 --> 05:06:12.759 That's what I meant about the Air Force and against 4931 05:06:12.840 --> 05:06:17.240 the Marine Corps. The Marines, they were used to doing 4932 05:06:17.319 --> 05:06:19.759 more with less just because of the nature of their 4933 05:06:19.799 --> 05:06:24.520 missions and deployments. You know. The Small Wars Manual was 4934 05:06:24.680 --> 05:06:28.959 uh was written by uh, you know officers and n 4935 05:06:29.000 --> 05:06:31.159 c o s who've been fighting in nicaraguall like in 4936 05:06:31.240 --> 05:06:35.240 the twenties and things. The Marines better understood how to 4937 05:06:35.319 --> 05:06:38.159 like you know that the need for you know kind 4938 05:06:38.200 --> 05:06:42.119 of like in the field diplomacy with indigenous elements like 4939 05:06:42.200 --> 05:06:46.560 stuff like that. And the the US Army, you know, 4940 05:06:47.400 --> 05:06:50.080 after World War Two, it was just like senerally obsessed 4941 05:06:50.080 --> 05:06:53.360 with firepower, you know, and like look what they did 4942 05:06:53.400 --> 05:06:56.319 in Vietnam. It's like, uh, you know, let's let's show 4943 05:06:56.400 --> 05:06:59.639 up as heavy as possible. Let's have guys wearing fatigues 4944 05:06:59.639 --> 05:07:02.240 that we don't wearing in the inner German border, you know, 4945 05:07:02.919 --> 05:07:06.880 like carrying around like rations and metal tns, you know, uh, 4946 05:07:07.080 --> 05:07:09.479 and toting like sixty pounds worth of gear on their 4947 05:07:09.520 --> 05:07:11.959 back and like one hundred and ten degree tropical heat. 4948 05:07:12.439 --> 05:07:15.439 Like that's not I mean that that's the whole thing's absurd. 4949 05:07:15.959 --> 05:07:18.880 Like Army Special Forces totally shined, you know. But that's 4950 05:07:19.200 --> 05:07:22.319 but this was before like SOCOM was like it was 4951 05:07:22.360 --> 05:07:25.520 like bros with like goofy beards and sleeved hats who 4952 05:07:25.599 --> 05:07:27.799 like think that they're the police or something like. This 4953 05:07:27.959 --> 05:07:31.159 was when like these guys were like genuine weirdos who 4954 05:07:31.200 --> 05:07:33.439 were like kind of like their own branch the military, 4955 05:07:34.080 --> 05:07:37.520 and they were really they were really up on some 4956 05:07:37.959 --> 05:07:42.840 progressive and dynamic, like tactical doctrines. That's what I meant. 4957 05:07:43.439 --> 05:07:45.479 And I think that in the nineteen sixties Army was 4958 05:07:45.560 --> 05:07:49.279 actually pretty squared away. Okay, they were very very well 4959 05:07:49.360 --> 05:07:54.479 suited to fight Warsaw Pact, but they were not. They 4960 05:07:54.599 --> 05:07:57.439 just lacked like operational flexibility in the with that in 4961 05:07:57.759 --> 05:08:00.599 a way that was needed. But it's just I mean 4962 05:08:00.919 --> 05:08:04.439 the US Army, the US Army had a hell of 4963 05:08:04.520 --> 05:08:06.040 a time in the in the Far East. One of 4964 05:08:06.040 --> 05:08:07.479 the reasons. I like the way The Thin Red Line, 4965 05:08:07.639 --> 05:08:09.319 Like nobody likes that movie, but I think it's a 4966 05:08:09.400 --> 05:08:12.080 dope movie that is like love Terrence mal like, but 4967 05:08:12.159 --> 05:08:14.680 it's about the US Army in the Pacific and like 4968 05:08:14.759 --> 05:08:17.599 nobody thinks about that, and you know it's all about 4969 05:08:17.599 --> 05:08:19.799 the Marines and the Navy, and I mean which and 4970 05:08:19.840 --> 05:08:21.520 then that's where like a lot of naval and marine 4971 05:08:21.520 --> 05:08:23.240 re legends were made. But the U. S R. And 4972 05:08:23.360 --> 05:08:26.560 the Pacific was fubar and like uh like in all 4973 05:08:26.680 --> 05:08:28.560 kinds of ways, not just because it was view as 4974 05:08:28.599 --> 05:08:30.959 the secondary theater, but it's just because like the army 4975 05:08:31.080 --> 05:08:33.400 was fucked up, like fighting in Asia, you know, like 4976 05:08:33.479 --> 05:08:37.479 and they were, it's they they they were not like 4977 05:08:37.560 --> 05:08:39.479 at the command level. I'm not talking about you know, 4978 05:08:39.520 --> 05:08:41.119 the guys in the field like doing you know, not 4979 05:08:41.200 --> 05:08:43.360 talking with the actual infantry man where game is fucked, 4980 05:08:43.919 --> 05:08:46.959 but like the guys making operational decisions. It's like they 4981 05:08:47.000 --> 05:08:50.680 didn't it, like didn't compute that. You know, this was 4982 05:08:50.759 --> 05:08:53.479 not we're not We're not We're not we're not fighting 4983 05:08:53.599 --> 05:08:56.200 Verdun or bellow Wood, you know, just against the against 4984 05:08:56.200 --> 05:08:59.360 the jabs. You know, it's not all the same. Yeah, 4985 05:08:59.360 --> 05:09:00.919 That's what I'm meant. But I'm not I'm not a 4986 05:09:01.000 --> 05:09:05.200 military man, so I mean look at me obviously, okay, 4987 05:09:05.319 --> 05:09:08.479 but I I'm sure that military will say, I don't 4988 05:09:08.479 --> 05:09:11.439 know what the hell I'm talking about, but I I 4989 05:09:12.200 --> 05:09:15.040 mean whatever, Okay, I mean that's that's my position. I 4990 05:09:15.119 --> 05:09:16.080 think I can back it up. 4991 05:09:17.680 --> 05:09:22.639 So over here on YouTube Viva Crista re Is, he 4992 05:09:22.720 --> 05:09:25.119 has a comment and then a question says, I saw 4993 05:09:25.599 --> 05:09:28.200 I saw a B one Lancer flying low over Chicago 4994 05:09:28.319 --> 05:09:30.439 the other day. I thought Red Dawn was happening, but 4995 05:09:30.560 --> 05:09:32.599 it was just opening It was just opening day for 4996 05:09:32.680 --> 05:09:33.159 the Cubs. 4997 05:09:34.840 --> 05:09:37.759 Now they're they're, uh that that aircraft, as you know, 4998 05:09:37.919 --> 05:09:40.080 I mean, that was meant. Uh, that was that was 4999 05:09:40.279 --> 05:09:43.479 that was meant to go in low, going fast, uh 5000 05:09:43.599 --> 05:09:46.479 and strike super hard on targets and in the Soviet 5001 05:09:46.599 --> 05:09:50.479 Union with nuclear weapons, it was. It was a bad bitch. 5002 05:09:51.319 --> 05:09:53.000 And the B two was the B two. It was 5003 05:09:53.000 --> 05:09:55.599 a it's immediate successor. It was a B one on 5004 05:09:55.720 --> 05:10:01.880 steroids with stealth capability. Yeah, it's uh, it's a fascinating aircraft. 5005 05:10:02.560 --> 05:10:06.439 And the Ivan's answer to that was the backfire, or 5006 05:10:06.479 --> 05:10:09.720 what NATO called the backfire. It was, uh, its actual 5007 05:10:09.799 --> 05:10:13.840 name is the TUPELIV something. But yeah, no, that's you see, uh, 5008 05:10:14.959 --> 05:10:17.759 you see some uh you see some cool aircraft over 5009 05:10:18.279 --> 05:10:19.319 orger Chicago game. 5010 05:10:20.279 --> 05:10:23.639 So his question was why was the Soviet Union and 5011 05:10:23.799 --> 05:10:27.919 Company so hostile to freemasonry and why was the sentiment 5012 05:10:28.040 --> 05:10:30.080 shared with their right Hegelian enemies. 5013 05:10:32.720 --> 05:10:37.159 I'm not an expert on freemasonry at all. What I 5014 05:10:37.279 --> 05:10:42.319 do know about it is that uh people on the 5015 05:10:42.439 --> 05:10:45.919 right always hated freemasonry, and like in America, Freemasonry like 5016 05:10:46.080 --> 05:10:47.520 is nothing and all some people in the commerce are 5017 05:10:47.520 --> 05:10:49.880 gonna be like O bullshoot like they wrote everything or whatever, 5018 05:10:50.080 --> 05:10:54.240 like there's I can like you have. It wasn't like 5019 05:10:54.279 --> 05:10:58.680 fraternal organizations that have way more cloud than is now 5020 05:10:58.799 --> 05:11:01.479 than the Freemasons and America, like the Masons are actually 5021 05:11:01.560 --> 05:11:03.919 viewed as kind of like lower bougie kind of trashy 5022 05:11:03.959 --> 05:11:06.400 stuff here by a lot of people. They are I'm 5023 05:11:06.400 --> 05:11:07.919 just telling you what I'm not saying. I think that 5024 05:11:08.000 --> 05:11:09.319 I'm telling you that's the way like a lot of 5025 05:11:09.360 --> 05:11:12.479 fucking people look at it, especially like social registered types 5026 05:11:12.560 --> 05:11:15.000 back when they had clout in Europe as a totally 5027 05:11:15.000 --> 05:11:20.319 different story. The uh the Freemasons are reviewed by uh 5028 05:11:21.680 --> 05:11:25.279 by by the Third Reich as like Roasta Crucian types, 5029 05:11:25.599 --> 05:11:28.159 you know, they're like these fifth columnists, who are you know, 5030 05:11:28.159 --> 05:11:31.880 they're degenerate. They're they're they're neither loyal to race, nor king, 5031 05:11:32.040 --> 05:11:36.159 nor country nor kin. You know, they're they're they're you know, 5032 05:11:36.200 --> 05:11:40.319 they're they're basically, uh, they're basically like a bourgeois fraternal 5033 05:11:40.400 --> 05:11:46.119 society that's intrinsically subversive, you know, and that is you know, uh, 5034 05:11:46.799 --> 05:11:50.840 these these these people, these people can't be relied upon 5035 05:11:50.959 --> 05:11:53.400 because they're only loyalty is to is this kind of 5036 05:11:53.439 --> 05:11:56.439 like odd set of beliefs which every reality often is 5037 05:11:56.560 --> 05:12:01.560 nothing deeper than kind of cover for uh, you know, ambition, 5038 05:12:01.680 --> 05:12:04.200 ambitious social climbers to pretend as if there's you know, 5039 05:12:04.200 --> 05:12:06.639 it's some kind of deeper ethos to their you know, 5040 05:12:06.720 --> 05:12:10.799 to their convetousness of station and things. Okay, In terms 5041 05:12:10.840 --> 05:12:13.159 of the Russians, I don't have a good understanding of 5042 05:12:13.240 --> 05:12:17.680 Russian culture at all. I don't readers speak Russian. I Uh, 5043 05:12:18.159 --> 05:12:20.200 I think I've got a good understanding of their political 5044 05:12:20.240 --> 05:12:23.599 heritage and how their decision making process in war and 5045 05:12:23.680 --> 05:12:27.400 peace terms plays out. But I I cannot tell you, 5046 05:12:27.560 --> 05:12:31.000 like what the Russian take is on Freemasonry, Like why 5047 05:12:31.040 --> 05:12:34.520 the Ivens like viewed them as insidious, like why why 5048 05:12:34.880 --> 05:12:38.400 why the Germans viewed them that way? And this proceeded 5049 05:12:38.520 --> 05:12:41.799 like the you know, the the national social revolution, but 5050 05:12:42.040 --> 05:12:45.119 why why the why the Third Reigen in particular like 5051 05:12:45.279 --> 05:12:48.319 viewed them as like a a an undesirable element, Like 5052 05:12:48.400 --> 05:12:55.319 that's why there's a dedicated Uh, there's a there's a 5053 05:12:55.400 --> 05:13:04.479 dedicated police uh creeple department or directorate, uh, dedicated to 5054 05:13:04.759 --> 05:13:08.159 like spying on Freemasons. And like I think in some capacity, 5055 05:13:08.279 --> 05:13:10.759 like it endured after the war, like a memory serves 5056 05:13:10.880 --> 05:13:15.240 like when, uh, when when the West German when the 5057 05:13:15.240 --> 05:13:18.520 Buddhist republic like national police were restructured, and like that's 5058 05:13:18.560 --> 05:13:21.799 when like GSG nine became this like badass special ops force. 5059 05:13:22.360 --> 05:13:24.479 Like I think I remember reading something like they were 5060 05:13:24.520 --> 05:13:26.759 still like spying on Freemasons and fucking with them, and 5061 05:13:26.759 --> 05:13:28.599 they made a bunch of people mad, like oh, this 5062 05:13:28.720 --> 05:13:30.759 is like you know nuts use some rebooks like godar 5063 05:13:30.840 --> 05:13:33.360 you like uh, but yeah, I don't, I don't have 5064 05:13:33.400 --> 05:13:34.880 any insight in on that man, Like you'd have to 5065 05:13:34.919 --> 05:13:38.799 talk to the Russian fellas in our circles or or 5066 05:13:38.840 --> 05:13:40.000 some of the European guys. 5067 05:13:43.159 --> 05:13:47.119 Where was the one of The other questions was, can 5068 05:13:47.200 --> 05:13:51.119 you give your opinion of Yuri Besmanoff. 5069 05:13:54.240 --> 05:13:55.959 I don't. I don't really have one because I haven't 5070 05:13:56.040 --> 05:13:57.840 I haven't like read enough of his stuff, like what 5071 05:13:58.479 --> 05:14:02.880 what uh like specifically like his take on Peristrika and 5072 05:14:03.000 --> 05:14:07.240 glass nos or like character or what it's honestly, what's it? 5073 05:14:07.840 --> 05:14:10.639 There's a famous video in nineteen eighty two eighty three 5074 05:14:10.799 --> 05:14:15.639 where he he's talking about how it was a Soviets 5075 05:14:15.680 --> 05:14:22.959 who subverted the subverted the yeah, the institutions and everything 5076 05:14:23.000 --> 05:14:23.919 that basically every. 5077 05:14:24.000 --> 05:14:25.880 Okay, yeah, yeah, you know, yeah, he's one of those 5078 05:14:25.919 --> 05:14:30.680 guys who he the guys who yeah, the Peristrika deception, 5079 05:14:30.959 --> 05:14:32.439 like the guys the same guys who were to that, 5080 05:14:32.639 --> 05:14:35.919 like cite him a lot, I don't. The Soviet Union 5081 05:14:36.040 --> 05:14:38.680 was basically what it appeared to be man from UH 5082 05:14:40.240 --> 05:14:44.319 from especially from President of Onward. I cruised if was 5083 05:14:44.400 --> 05:14:46.959 kind of a wild card in like policy terms, I 5084 05:14:46.959 --> 05:14:50.880 don't mean like ideological terms, but it I mean like 5085 05:14:51.080 --> 05:14:55.319 the the subversion something was coming from Moscow. It UH 5086 05:14:57.159 --> 05:15:00.520 in the in the in the in the the labor 5087 05:15:00.680 --> 05:15:04.919 movement was UH was truly a national phenomenon with with 5088 05:15:05.040 --> 05:15:10.720 political cloud manufacturing economy, the terrestrial manufacturing, like national economics 5089 05:15:10.799 --> 05:15:14.959 was the order of the day, you know, really until uh, 5090 05:15:16.040 --> 05:15:19.119 until nineteen sixty they're about, Yeah, you better believe that. 5091 05:15:19.439 --> 05:15:23.240 Uh you better believe the common term in later common 5092 05:15:23.400 --> 05:15:27.400 form they were. They were totally insinuated into that, you know. 5093 05:15:27.599 --> 05:15:30.520 And there was major unions that were shot through with 5094 05:15:30.680 --> 05:15:34.479 like Soviet influence. Okay, last gas at was like the 5095 05:15:34.560 --> 05:15:37.799 Welsh minor strike, so like the Kremlin was pouring a 5096 05:15:37.880 --> 05:15:42.439 munch money into those efforts. Okay, But that's the reason why. 5097 05:15:42.520 --> 05:15:46.400 And again I view it as a very imperfect signifier 5098 05:15:46.599 --> 05:15:48.880 for all kinds of reasons. But I understand why people 5099 05:15:48.919 --> 05:15:53.959 about cultural Marxism. Digital Marxist Leninism does not emphasize culture. 5100 05:15:54.119 --> 05:15:57.439 Everything is superstructure. It's all labor, it's all production, it's 5101 05:15:57.479 --> 05:16:01.159 all capital, you know, it's all it's all how people's 5102 05:16:01.200 --> 05:16:07.400 conceptual horizons and social behavior and and and and and 5103 05:16:07.560 --> 05:16:11.840 class and cast structuring like derives from labor and production 5104 05:16:11.919 --> 05:16:15.400 to schema. You know. So like if you asked, like 5105 05:16:15.520 --> 05:16:18.200 even the most radical kind of mark like traditional Marxist 5106 05:16:18.240 --> 05:16:20.799 lenin Is in nineteen fifty, if you like ask them 5107 05:16:20.799 --> 05:16:24.919 about stuff like homosexuality, or like feminism or like about 5108 05:16:25.040 --> 05:16:27.040 race relations. You just like tell you like, none of 5109 05:16:27.080 --> 05:16:30.720 that is important, Like these are bourgeois fixations or concerns, 5110 05:16:30.799 --> 05:16:34.119 and you know, over to the alienation of of the 5111 05:16:34.360 --> 05:16:38.080 of you know, not just the not just the exploited proletariat, 5112 05:16:38.439 --> 05:16:40.680 but you know the people who profit from it. You know, 5113 05:16:40.959 --> 05:16:44.639 they exist also in debate circumstances and you know, not 5114 05:16:44.880 --> 05:16:47.479 not being not being invested in actual like you know, 5115 05:16:47.680 --> 05:16:51.159 power processes of production, as humans need to be you know, 5116 05:16:51.279 --> 05:16:54.159 to live, you know, psychologically healthy lives. You know, they're 5117 05:16:54.240 --> 05:16:56.720 they're drawing upon you know, these these kind of super 5118 05:16:56.759 --> 05:17:00.639 structural meaningless like ephemora, like the surrounds, like human life. 5119 05:17:00.799 --> 05:17:03.119 These are these things don't matter. Like that's literally what 5120 05:17:03.200 --> 05:17:06.639 their take would be, Like they'd have no they have 5121 05:17:06.720 --> 05:17:10.119 no interest. They either have no interest and these kinds 5122 05:17:10.119 --> 05:17:16.159 of culture aspects that we are so familiar with, or 5123 05:17:16.639 --> 05:17:20.799 they'd say, you know, that's just not important. You know, Okay, 5124 05:17:20.919 --> 05:17:22.919 it was interesting, maybe it's useful, maybe it can be 5125 05:17:22.959 --> 05:17:26.799 exploded to some discreete purpose, but it's just not important. 5126 05:17:27.319 --> 05:17:32.040 You know. That's that's the key difference. So when these 5127 05:17:32.119 --> 05:17:34.720 Bircher types would talk into the eighties about how like 5128 05:17:34.880 --> 05:17:39.040 everything bad that happens is coming from Oscow. I mean, 5129 05:17:39.119 --> 05:17:41.159 that was like a fucked up perspective of all kinds 5130 05:17:41.159 --> 05:17:43.799 of reasons. And it's just like, I mean not not 5131 05:17:46.119 --> 05:17:49.240 sensible and pregnant reasons and obvious ones. But that's also 5132 05:17:49.400 --> 05:17:52.560 just like not that is not what like Sowetism was about. 5133 05:17:52.840 --> 05:17:54.000 You know, it just wasn't. 5134 05:17:57.479 --> 05:17:59.959 Talk a little bit about talk a little more about 5135 05:18:00.080 --> 05:18:09.040 Latin America and how why was the Marxism of Moscow? 5136 05:18:09.240 --> 05:18:13.799 Why was the way Moscow ran things ran things so 5137 05:18:15.360 --> 05:18:20.400 attractive to so many in Latin America, I. 5138 05:18:20.479 --> 05:18:24.680 Mean, because the whole Marxist Leninist uh, particularly Leninist you 5139 05:18:24.759 --> 05:18:30.240 read Lenin's imperialism, the process that he describes like in 5140 05:18:30.319 --> 05:18:35.279 today's terms, the legacy of Marxism is is global systems theory, 5141 05:18:36.959 --> 05:18:40.240 you know, like a manual Wallerstein kind of stuff. Okay, 5142 05:18:41.880 --> 05:18:44.720 even after Marxist Leninism kind of like lost its animating 5143 05:18:44.759 --> 05:18:49.080 power and kind of context and much of the world still, 5144 05:18:49.400 --> 05:18:55.040 especially kind of some of its successor iterations captured sort 5145 05:18:55.080 --> 05:18:59.840 of the the fascination of Latin Americans because it it 5146 05:19:00.279 --> 05:19:03.919 very much was contextual error. Okay, like Latin America was 5147 05:19:04.319 --> 05:19:09.880 and is kind of this hyper exploited, primitive economic backwater, 5148 05:19:10.439 --> 05:19:12.840 you know that's like resource rich in terms of things 5149 05:19:12.880 --> 05:19:18.279 like agricultural commodities and not really owing to any kind 5150 05:19:18.279 --> 05:19:21.479 of conspiracy, but gowing definitely to kind of structural design. 5151 05:19:22.000 --> 05:19:24.759 It remains mired in this kind of primitiveness, you know, 5152 05:19:24.919 --> 05:19:27.360 owing to the kind of odd racial dynamics. There's like 5153 05:19:27.520 --> 05:19:31.159 this incredibly sharp cast distinction, you know, like there's uh 5154 05:19:32.279 --> 05:19:36.560 like pretty much every kind of cliche that uh, you know, 5155 05:19:36.639 --> 05:19:39.520 from the Leninists, specifically the Leninist kind of play bulk 5156 05:19:39.599 --> 05:19:44.279 of history that's described, uh that describes capitalism and punitive terms, 5157 05:19:44.639 --> 05:19:47.400 you know, is like very is like plainly evident in 5158 05:19:47.560 --> 05:19:51.639 Latin America. Okay, and again not not for conspiratorial reasons, 5159 05:19:51.759 --> 05:19:54.080 but for you know, the peculiar and kind of somewhat 5160 05:19:54.119 --> 05:20:00.599 tragic heritage of the region. That's why it's it's interesting 5161 05:20:00.680 --> 05:20:05.119 you raised that. I was reading the Wilton Center, which 5162 05:20:05.400 --> 05:20:08.159 I think is kind of abominable in a lot of ways, 5163 05:20:08.240 --> 05:20:14.200 but their archives are very useful and very interesting. When 5164 05:20:14.319 --> 05:20:18.720 Bush and Scowcroft Bush forty one obviously, and Baker and 5165 05:20:18.840 --> 05:20:24.159 Helmet Coal, you know, we're negotiating with Garbagehew, particularly as 5166 05:20:24.200 --> 05:20:28.240 regarded specifically as you know, the art Tree, but generally, 5167 05:20:29.479 --> 05:20:32.319 you know, the kind of extancies related to ending the 5168 05:20:32.360 --> 05:20:37.439 Cold War, something that Coal and Bush and Scowcroft also 5169 05:20:37.560 --> 05:20:40.000 to Gorrishev was like, look like, however, we leave this, 5170 05:20:40.560 --> 05:20:43.439 you know, assuming that you know, we can cut terms 5171 05:20:43.520 --> 05:20:46.240 on a nuclear weapons, assuming we can come to terms 5172 05:20:46.319 --> 05:20:49.080 on you know, a basically complete drawdown and forces and 5173 05:20:49.159 --> 05:20:51.560 being in Europe. You know, he's like, we need your 5174 05:20:51.599 --> 05:20:54.400 guarantee that your satellites in Latin America are gonna stop 5175 05:20:54.400 --> 05:20:57.080 exporting revolution, you know. And obviously they couch this in 5176 05:20:57.279 --> 05:20:59.520 like the language of diplomacy and in the language of 5177 05:20:59.720 --> 05:21:03.159 of of of American propaganda, you know, like subverting the 5178 05:21:03.240 --> 05:21:06.720 democracies in Latin America. But this is very much on 5179 05:21:06.799 --> 05:21:09.599 their mind, which is fascinating, and this makes sense. But 5180 05:21:09.840 --> 05:21:12.840 that's that's why. And but there's also I mean, like 5181 05:21:13.000 --> 05:21:19.639 Latin people's are they're uh, they're they're they're political romantics, man. 5182 05:21:19.680 --> 05:21:21.279 You know, I'm not saying that like to make fun 5183 05:21:21.319 --> 05:21:23.520 of them or in a negative way, like quite the contrary. 5184 05:21:23.560 --> 05:21:26.319 It's like it makes them like effective partisans, you know, 5185 05:21:26.479 --> 05:21:29.240 so you're gonna you're gonna be able to get You're 5186 05:21:29.240 --> 05:21:30.759 gonna be able to get a bunch of Kubanos. There 5187 05:21:30.759 --> 05:21:33.880 are a bunch of Argentines or a bunch of Salvadorans. 5188 05:21:34.200 --> 05:21:36.680 You're gonna be able to get them to kind of 5189 05:21:36.799 --> 05:21:39.439 export the revolution in a way that you wouldn't a 5190 05:21:39.479 --> 05:21:41.680 bunch of North Koreans. Okay, I mean, let's be honest. 5191 05:21:42.159 --> 05:21:44.159 I mean it's like all those things. It's like historical 5192 05:21:44.240 --> 05:21:47.919 as anthropological, it's it's it's cultural, it's dare I say racial? 5193 05:21:48.319 --> 05:21:49.520 I mean that's why. 5194 05:21:53.119 --> 05:21:56.720 Well do you had mentioned before we started going live 5195 05:21:56.919 --> 05:21:59.040 that there were a couple of things you might want 5196 05:21:59.040 --> 05:22:00.360 to comment on your self. 5197 05:22:00.479 --> 05:22:03.159 Is there anything you uh he wanted to get out there? 5198 05:22:05.319 --> 05:22:06.880 I just yeah, I want to. I want to and 5199 05:22:06.959 --> 05:22:09.159 we will deal with this more in a dedicated pass 5200 05:22:11.840 --> 05:22:15.880 and more kind of events discussion. But I the degree 5201 05:22:15.919 --> 05:22:22.279 of which the uh what people like Bush forty one, Scowcroft, Baker, 5202 05:22:22.880 --> 05:22:26.279 Nixon himself, and I mean make mistake like Nixon Platt 5203 05:22:26.279 --> 05:22:28.159 a key role in ending the Cold War, like the 5204 05:22:28.279 --> 05:22:33.200 vision that they had for world order. Obviously, you know 5205 05:22:33.439 --> 05:22:36.279 I don't agree with that vision, but there was something 5206 05:22:36.439 --> 05:22:40.200 noble about it and something both pragmatic and uh and 5207 05:22:40.360 --> 05:22:43.159 developed about it, the degree to which this was just 5208 05:22:43.319 --> 05:22:47.840 utterly sabotaged, deliberately thrown in the trash, so that uh, 5209 05:22:49.319 --> 05:22:53.759 you know, we could have you know, we can have 5210 05:22:53.799 --> 05:22:59.080 this kind of free for all uh in in these 5211 05:22:59.439 --> 05:23:02.720 states like Ukraine, and they can be turned against Russia's 5212 05:23:02.880 --> 05:23:06.119 as these kind of like suicide torpedoes, you know, with 5213 05:23:06.240 --> 05:23:09.840 the ultimate purpose in mind of you know, ultimately deteriorating 5214 05:23:09.919 --> 05:23:12.799 Russia's ability to defend itself from such a text the 5215 05:23:12.840 --> 05:23:16.080 point that you know it it Russia can be stript 5216 05:23:16.080 --> 05:23:21.040 of its natural wealth and looted. I mean that's incredibly grotesque, man, 5217 05:23:21.200 --> 05:23:27.360 Like everything everything about how what developed subsequent term you know, 5218 05:23:27.439 --> 05:23:30.439 the bush Baker regime is this grotesque. That's the only 5219 05:23:30.520 --> 05:23:33.400 word for it. And it really is. It's it's it's 5220 05:23:33.639 --> 05:23:36.040 it literally is criminal, you know, and that should That's 5221 05:23:36.040 --> 05:23:38.240 why I get still offended when these idiots like wave 5222 05:23:38.279 --> 05:23:40.959 these like Ukrainian flags, like like what they're cheering on, 5223 05:23:41.880 --> 05:23:46.119 Like you're you're you're cheering on destruction and mass homicide 5224 05:23:46.200 --> 05:23:48.560 literally for no reason, you know, for the profit of 5225 05:23:48.599 --> 05:23:51.560 a handful of incredibly evil people, you know, like this, 5226 05:23:52.040 --> 05:23:53.759 the fact that anybody can look at that is like 5227 05:23:53.840 --> 05:23:56.799 some good thing or that that's like preferable to like 5228 05:23:56.919 --> 05:24:02.000 what was accomplished in UH nineteen nine. It's just unconscionable, Okay. 5229 05:24:02.040 --> 05:24:03.680 And I realized it's a board of ignorance because these 5230 05:24:03.680 --> 05:24:05.720 people don't know anything, but it's that doesn't make it 5231 05:24:05.720 --> 05:24:10.919 any less disgusting, you know, And I I behoove people. 5232 05:24:11.000 --> 05:24:14.720 I want to do a dedicated Gulf War episode because 5233 05:24:15.479 --> 05:24:18.360 that that's a that's a natural kind of like bookend 5234 05:24:18.439 --> 05:24:21.880 to the Cold War, not just like in linear terms, 5235 05:24:21.919 --> 05:24:25.360 but like in conceptual ones, and that I want people 5236 05:24:25.360 --> 05:24:27.520 to understand why I defend Bush forty one a lot. 5237 05:24:27.520 --> 05:24:29.720 I don't defend Bush forty one because I like, I 5238 05:24:29.880 --> 05:24:33.439 like these fucking Yale assholes, or because like I have 5239 05:24:33.560 --> 05:24:36.959 something to common with social registered types. I get tired 5240 05:24:36.959 --> 05:24:38.759 of that too. Like I don't like when people call 5241 05:24:38.840 --> 05:24:40.720 me like a quote wasp. It's like, look at me, like, 5242 05:24:40.759 --> 05:24:43.119 don't be fucking basic. Do I look like a wasp 5243 05:24:43.200 --> 05:24:44.720 to you? Like, you know, if I wanted to be 5244 05:24:44.799 --> 05:24:47.360 a wasp, which I don't like, I would never ever 5245 05:24:47.560 --> 05:24:52.040 be allowed like in their environs. Okay, Like de fact. Uh, 5246 05:24:53.240 --> 05:24:55.119 you know, yeah, there is like some sort of like 5247 05:24:55.319 --> 05:24:58.119 tribal commonality between people like me and the bushes, but. 5248 05:24:58.240 --> 05:25:01.639 It's I'm gonna I'm not gonna, I'm not gonna out 5249 05:25:01.680 --> 05:25:05.240 you right now. But your last name is like Norman dynasty. 5250 05:25:07.360 --> 05:25:10.439 No, I mean that's true. Like, uh, but I I've 5251 05:25:10.479 --> 05:25:13.720 got some people in my LEAs were like incredibly like prestigious, 5252 05:25:13.720 --> 05:25:15.919 but we're also like unbmolievably fucking trashy. 5253 05:25:18.319 --> 05:25:23.479 Same, it's same, same, But like my point is, like. 5254 05:25:23.479 --> 05:25:25.599 If I showed up at if I showed kinds of 5255 05:25:25.639 --> 05:25:27.799 places that like the boishes hang around like, un if 5256 05:25:27.799 --> 05:25:30.119 I was like flush of money, like I'd be like 5257 05:25:30.200 --> 05:25:32.200 showing the door, even if I was, like even if 5258 05:25:32.200 --> 05:25:33.799 I was, you know, if I wasn't you know, like 5259 05:25:34.319 --> 05:25:36.000 you know, even if I like got a haircut and 5260 05:25:36.200 --> 05:25:38.840 was like behaving myself. I guess that's kind of my point. 5261 05:25:38.919 --> 05:25:43.080 But aside from all of that, like you know, we 5262 05:25:43.599 --> 05:25:46.200 we we don't need to agree with you know, the 5263 05:25:46.319 --> 05:25:50.479 kind of conceptual perspective of like Nixon or forty one. 5264 05:25:51.000 --> 05:25:54.240 But these guys were motivated by good intentions, you know, 5265 05:25:54.520 --> 05:25:56.520 at least as much as intentions can be good like 5266 05:25:56.599 --> 05:26:00.919 in power political manner. And even if they weren't, I mean, 5267 05:26:00.919 --> 05:26:02.959 even like let's say let's play Devil's abac and say, oh, 5268 05:26:03.000 --> 05:26:05.720 there's nothing good about this and like moral terms, but 5269 05:26:06.040 --> 05:26:09.439 it was, it was incredibly ambitious and it was you know, 5270 05:26:10.080 --> 05:26:13.119 it was world transforming in a way that is laudable 5271 05:26:13.279 --> 05:26:17.959 and for it, you know, the the uh, the kind 5272 05:26:18.000 --> 05:26:20.240 of impactful list of things like that I think is 5273 05:26:20.479 --> 05:26:23.080 is it represents like a good and its own terms. 5274 05:26:23.119 --> 05:26:27.240 And the uh, the fact that that was immediately succeeded 5275 05:26:27.279 --> 05:26:31.360 by these like you know, by by these conceptual literates 5276 05:26:31.439 --> 05:26:34.319 and and just you know, like like literal like bandits, 5277 05:26:34.400 --> 05:26:37.639 you know, say, just just like bandits MAFIOSI, like, you know, 5278 05:26:37.840 --> 05:26:40.080 just kind of like the lowest of the low, like uh, 5279 05:26:41.319 --> 05:26:47.919 like kind of human carrion animals, eaters of the dead. Literally. 5280 05:26:48.439 --> 05:26:52.000 I mean that that's uncomfortable and that's and also it 5281 05:26:52.319 --> 05:26:54.560 also I mean it forces a question as to what 5282 05:26:55.560 --> 05:26:59.240 you know, what what I mean you know, people people 5283 05:26:59.400 --> 05:27:02.759 fought and waging the Cold War. I'm not talking I'm 5284 05:27:02.799 --> 05:27:04.439 not talking about these fools in Washington. I mean like 5285 05:27:04.479 --> 05:27:07.639 regular guys, you know, and this was this was this 5286 05:27:07.799 --> 05:27:09.720 wasn't the time, and you got you got a draft card, 5287 05:27:09.799 --> 05:27:11.680 you got forced to do it. You know what we 5288 05:27:11.720 --> 05:27:14.520 didn't have like this like Dickhead police department for an army, 5289 05:27:14.599 --> 05:27:18.200 you know, like it was you know, like what basically 5290 05:27:18.279 --> 05:27:21.520 like all the sacrifices that those guys made, you know, uh, 5291 05:27:22.439 --> 05:27:24.479 and they were they were a bunch of white Christian 5292 05:27:24.560 --> 05:27:29.319 guys mostly. Uh. That was essentially like completely fucking neutralized 5293 05:27:29.599 --> 05:27:32.000 among everything else by this by this kind of like 5294 05:27:32.279 --> 05:27:38.680 you know, uh Semitic crusade against you know, Byzantium. But yeah, no, yeah, 5295 05:27:38.759 --> 05:27:39.680 this was really great. Man. 5296 05:27:39.919 --> 05:27:43.439 I hope we got one. We got an we got 5297 05:27:43.520 --> 05:27:47.200 a lake if you're okay with that. It's from williams 5298 05:27:47.360 --> 05:27:48.680 over on Entropy. 5299 05:27:49.880 --> 05:27:51.119 Yeah, would NATO. 5300 05:27:51.520 --> 05:27:53.919 Would NATO have been able to hold West Germany in 5301 05:27:54.000 --> 05:27:55.720 a seven days to the Rhine scenario? 5302 05:27:58.000 --> 05:28:02.959 No, I don't think so. No, definitely not. And that's 5303 05:28:03.000 --> 05:28:06.479 what that was. That is an interesting point a game 5304 05:28:06.599 --> 05:28:12.200 that scenario, like many many times with a couple with 5305 05:28:12.360 --> 05:28:14.680 with a couple of different game platforms, and I think 5306 05:28:14.759 --> 05:28:19.040 are are basically the variables are the variables they chose 5307 05:28:19.080 --> 05:28:22.240 to code and when they code and are basically accurate. No, 5308 05:28:22.439 --> 05:28:25.880 the only thing that that that was William Odom's UH 5309 05:28:27.159 --> 05:28:31.639 A big concern because UH, the only thing that would 5310 05:28:31.680 --> 05:28:36.080 have stopped that onslaught is UH is theater nuclear weapons, Okay, 5311 05:28:37.400 --> 05:28:43.520 and to hold UH if to hold UH, to hold 5312 05:28:43.560 --> 05:28:45.880 warsaw bag armor and say nineteen eighty five in the 5313 05:28:45.919 --> 05:28:48.959 North German plane and the fold the gap. You know, 5314 05:28:49.040 --> 05:28:54.520 if you're gonna you're gonna start, You're you had to 5315 05:28:54.520 --> 05:29:00.400 start hitting them with miss and Pershing Two's okay, And 5316 05:29:00.560 --> 05:29:04.799 what would the Soviets do? You know? UH? Would they like? 5317 05:29:04.880 --> 05:29:07.959 Would they escalate, I mean to counter value with salt? 5318 05:29:08.080 --> 05:29:10.240 I mean, I don't know. But even if they didn't, 5319 05:29:10.439 --> 05:29:13.560 it's like, okay, well, now now the Bones Republic is 5320 05:29:13.759 --> 05:29:16.759 is a nuclear battlefield, you know. I mean that's and 5321 05:29:16.880 --> 05:29:21.759 that's somewhat pure. But I don't no, I don't think UH, 5322 05:29:23.159 --> 05:29:27.200 I don't think no. I they War's up Pact would 5323 05:29:27.200 --> 05:29:31.240 have UH War's up pack would have reached UH what 5324 05:29:31.400 --> 05:29:33.400 would have reached the Ryan in five to seven days 5325 05:29:33.479 --> 05:29:36.799 and UH and and nothing could have stopped them. The 5326 05:29:38.040 --> 05:29:41.639 the idea was NATO war planning was like late in 5327 05:29:41.680 --> 05:29:43.520 the game. I'm talking like kind of the final literation 5328 05:29:43.759 --> 05:29:49.200 of UH of of NATO war gaming was that uh 5329 05:29:50.439 --> 05:29:56.439 the UH American, UH, British and UH and Benelux UH 5330 05:29:56.759 --> 05:29:59.479 tankers like the British and the Benelux guys, they were 5331 05:29:59.479 --> 05:30:02.799 a response for the North German plane like American uh 5332 05:30:03.080 --> 05:30:05.959 and like a look like black horses the fold the gap. Basically, 5333 05:30:08.200 --> 05:30:12.000 they the idea was that if they could hold warsaw 5334 05:30:12.080 --> 05:30:17.000 pack for seventy two hours, NATO could be rapidly reinforced 5335 05:30:18.799 --> 05:30:23.240 and uh uh presumably like stage uh you know, a 5336 05:30:23.319 --> 05:30:27.560 counter offensive that uh you know, under best of circumstances, 5337 05:30:27.720 --> 05:30:30.639 uh would have been able to hold uh the enemy 5338 05:30:30.720 --> 05:30:34.319 at the north at the inner German border. But it's 5339 05:30:34.400 --> 05:30:38.560 a fascinating question. I highly recommend Russell Stofeley's uh stuff 5340 05:30:38.639 --> 05:30:42.720 on UH on NATO and he he gained a lot 5341 05:30:42.759 --> 05:30:44.919 of this stuff with a bunch of former Wehrmacht officers. 5342 05:30:44.959 --> 05:30:47.919 It's really freaking cool. But yeah, that's a great question, man, 5343 05:30:48.080 --> 05:30:49.400 I mean, I love that kind of stuff. 5344 05:30:50.080 --> 05:30:52.599 Year Robert in the comments as seven days they would 5345 05:30:52.639 --> 05:30:57.479 have been in Rotterdam and antwarpon, they would. 5346 05:30:57.279 --> 05:30:58.959 They would have been chilling on the river era like 5347 05:30:59.159 --> 05:31:00.319 like whistling rooms. 5348 05:31:01.720 --> 05:31:04.520 All right, man, do your plugs and we'll end this. 5349 05:31:04.880 --> 05:31:07.759 We really appreciate I know everyone appreciate this. We got 5350 05:31:07.759 --> 05:31:10.759 one hundred and twenty six people watching on a on 5351 05:31:10.880 --> 05:31:13.400 a last minute unannounced stream, So. 5352 05:31:14.159 --> 05:31:17.439 No, awesome man, no I I yeah again, sorry man, 5353 05:31:17.520 --> 05:31:19.279 like I was feeling probably since the guy, I feel 5354 05:31:19.279 --> 05:31:20.639 a lot better now, I feel from you, since I 5355 05:31:20.680 --> 05:31:25.400 got back from Lynchburg, and I should have announced, like 5356 05:31:25.560 --> 05:31:26.840 check with you if you want to do this sooner, 5357 05:31:26.919 --> 05:31:29.439 but I I I'm stoked that I'm stoked that people 5358 05:31:29.520 --> 05:31:32.319 were happy with this kind of change in format. It 5359 05:31:32.360 --> 05:31:37.520 seemed appropriate. But you can find me on substack at 5360 05:31:37.599 --> 05:31:40.880 real Thomas seven seven seven that substack dot com. Probably 5361 05:31:41.159 --> 05:31:44.240 most the people who tuned in regularly know that the 5362 05:31:44.400 --> 05:31:49.000 channel is on track. I uh, I've been apologizing well 5363 05:31:49.000 --> 05:31:51.520 being kind of inerd lately because I've been I've needed 5364 05:31:51.560 --> 05:31:53.119 time to get back to people because I was feeling 5365 05:31:53.159 --> 05:31:56.159 really shitty. But every like we're on track for like 5366 05:31:56.240 --> 05:32:00.240 production and stuff, and a bunch of a bunch of 5367 05:32:00.279 --> 05:32:03.200 people been donating to like help explain the process, like 5368 05:32:03.279 --> 05:32:04.959 which is awesome. And I mean, like I said, I 5369 05:32:04.959 --> 05:32:08.040 included the caveat, like if we raise zero dollars that 5370 05:32:08.159 --> 05:32:11.799 is totally fine. Like nobody should feel obligated to you know, 5371 05:32:12.000 --> 05:32:16.840 to to to donate, you know, harder in cash, just 5372 05:32:16.919 --> 05:32:19.799 for the sake like exciting, like content production, like the 5373 05:32:19.919 --> 05:32:22.439 something is important in this world that we do something 5374 05:32:22.520 --> 05:32:25.200 is not so important, like our content is not one 5375 05:32:25.200 --> 05:32:27.159 of those more important things. But like a bunch of 5376 05:32:27.200 --> 05:32:29.720 people have donated and that is that that's like incredible, man, 5377 05:32:29.759 --> 05:32:32.400 and that like that just is dope. But don't anyone 5378 05:32:32.439 --> 05:32:34.919 ever feel obligated, man, like one hundred percent, Like I'm 5379 05:32:34.959 --> 05:32:39.560 not just being like gracious, but we're still on burb app. 5380 05:32:39.720 --> 05:32:43.400 I'm gonna disengage as the summer goes on, but right now, 5381 05:32:43.560 --> 05:32:45.959 that's right, drop a lot of stuff just kind of 5382 05:32:46.000 --> 05:32:48.680 like housekeeping stuff as well as like you know, notifying 5383 05:32:48.720 --> 05:32:52.080 people we're doing. It's real all caps R E A 5384 05:32:52.279 --> 05:32:56.000 L underscore number seven h m as seven seven seven. 5385 05:32:56.599 --> 05:32:58.599 I'm still on t gram. I'm gonna up my t 5386 05:32:58.759 --> 05:33:01.119 gram game and get more active there, especially as I 5387 05:33:01.240 --> 05:33:05.240 kind of like slide back from Burbap. I'm on Instagram. 5388 05:33:05.479 --> 05:33:09.759 I'm TikTok, and TikTok is like fucking retarded, but like 5389 05:33:09.799 --> 05:33:14.240 a lady friend of mine, like uh uh she had 5390 05:33:14.240 --> 05:33:16.159 the idea that, like I can make some funny TikTok 5391 05:33:16.240 --> 05:33:18.560 videos and I'm gonna start like experimenting with that some 5392 05:33:19.599 --> 05:33:21.159 and she only takes them to like nuke me for 5393 05:33:21.319 --> 05:33:24.919 like you know a number of things. But uh, yeah, 5394 05:33:24.959 --> 05:33:29.279 that's where we're at right now, man, and you know, 5395 05:33:29.400 --> 05:33:33.959 and then June ninth, uh Unlike some fucking people who 5396 05:33:33.959 --> 05:33:36.639 will go a named who like organize like really gay 5397 05:33:36.720 --> 05:33:39.319 events where gay things go on, and they like charge 5398 05:33:39.360 --> 05:33:41.639 people like fucking half a stack to like go hear 5399 05:33:41.639 --> 05:33:44.919 about gay stuff like once a year or so, Like 5400 05:33:45.040 --> 05:33:47.560 I just see if people like convenient shytown to hang out. 5401 05:33:47.680 --> 05:33:49.360 And like last year, we want to see craft work 5402 05:33:49.400 --> 05:33:51.880 and it was fucking awesome. Like this year, we're gonna 5403 05:33:51.880 --> 05:33:55.200 go see the murder junkies at Reggie's in on the 5404 05:33:55.319 --> 05:33:57.680 South Loop. If you're gonna like scrounge you up like 5405 05:33:57.759 --> 05:34:01.279 fifteen dollars and get here, like you can go. It's 5406 05:34:01.319 --> 05:34:04.439 like fifteen bucks at the door. But uh, a lot 5407 05:34:04.479 --> 05:34:08.560 of people are are excited about that from what I'm 5408 05:34:08.840 --> 05:34:11.520 leaning from the feedback. So it's June nights if you 5409 05:34:11.560 --> 05:34:13.240 want to go, like save the date, And like I said, 5410 05:34:13.319 --> 05:34:14.599 last year, we had a lot of fun, man, and 5411 05:34:14.720 --> 05:34:16.759 well will you hang out and stuff too, like before 5412 05:34:16.759 --> 05:34:19.880 we enter the show. But that yeah, that's that's all 5413 05:34:19.919 --> 05:34:21.279 I got man for Mike Flugs. 5414 05:34:21.799 --> 05:34:24.319 All right, man, I'm gonna stop the recording now and 5415 05:34:24.400 --> 05:34:26.240 then uh YouTube afterwards. 5416 05:34:26.319 --> 05:34:28.720 So uh, thanks a lot until the next time. 5417 05:34:29.439 --> 05:34:30.240 Yeah, thank you, man. 5418 05:34:33.840 --> 05:34:34.599 I want to thank. 5419 05:34:34.479 --> 05:34:37.200 Everyone on YouTube who showed up to uh at the 5420 05:34:37.319 --> 05:34:41.159 last minute, I mean, this was more than we expected 5421 05:34:41.799 --> 05:34:44.520 at the last minute. And uh, thank you for the 5422 05:34:45.119 --> 05:34:48.040 the couple people who dropped dropped super chats. I really 5423 05:34:48.080 --> 05:34:52.040 appreciate that, especially since YouTube has basically taken away all 5424 05:34:52.119 --> 05:34:54.119 my monetization and everything. 5425 05:34:54.319 --> 05:34:57.919 So no, that's that's uh yeah, they're they're freaking vultures, man, 5426 05:34:58.080 --> 05:35:00.119 But no, this this was great man. Again, thanks thank 5427 05:35:00.200 --> 05:35:05.240 some thanks for abiding the kind of change in format. 5428 05:35:06.200 --> 05:35:08.159 Just like I said, a lot of people, I mean 5429 05:35:08.240 --> 05:35:12.360 not just lately, but like since we started the series 5430 05:35:12.560 --> 05:35:15.000 they wanted like a Q and a kind of format, 5431 05:35:15.080 --> 05:35:16.799 so I figured that it would this would be like 5432 05:35:16.880 --> 05:35:18.680 a good time for it. So yeah, this was this 5433 05:35:18.840 --> 05:35:19.400 was great man.