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We're prohibited by law 24 00:00:56.679 --> 00:01:00.000 eighteen plus terms and conditions apply. See website for details. 25 00:01:08.159 --> 00:01:11.599 You are now listening to True Murder the most shocking 26 00:01:11.680 --> 00:01:14.719 killers in true crime history and the authors that have 27 00:01:14.799 --> 00:01:22.079 written about them. Gaesy, Bundy, Dahmer, The Nightstalker BTK Every 28 00:01:22.120 --> 00:01:25.799 week another fascinating author talking about the most shocking and 29 00:01:25.879 --> 00:01:30.079 infamous killers in true crime history. True Murder with Your 30 00:01:30.120 --> 00:01:34.760 Host journalist and author Dan Zufanski. 31 00:01:41.840 --> 00:01:42.400 Good Evening. 32 00:01:42.920 --> 00:01:45.159 What goes through the mind of a killer when they 33 00:01:45.159 --> 00:01:50.439 commit murder. Based on the massively successful Netflix documentary series 34 00:01:50.480 --> 00:01:53.560 of the same name, this book features ten of the 35 00:01:53.599 --> 00:01:56.920 most compelling cases from the first two series and is 36 00:01:56.959 --> 00:02:01.519 full of exclusive, never seen before material. The authors Ned 37 00:02:01.560 --> 00:02:06.239 Parker and Danny Tipping secured exceptional access to high security 38 00:02:06.239 --> 00:02:10.080 prisons across America. The majority of the killers will die 39 00:02:10.120 --> 00:02:13.800 in prison, either by serving their sentence of life without 40 00:02:13.800 --> 00:02:18.280 parole or they are on death row waiting to be executed. 41 00:02:19.159 --> 00:02:22.280 In each of the cases, the inmates speaks openly about 42 00:02:22.280 --> 00:02:26.800 themselves and reflects on their life and their crimes. To 43 00:02:26.840 --> 00:02:29.680 gain a complete picture of the impact of the murders, 44 00:02:30.039 --> 00:02:32.479 the authors spoke to both the families of both the 45 00:02:32.520 --> 00:02:36.919 perpetrators and the victims, and those in law enforcement who 46 00:02:36.960 --> 00:02:39.520 were involved in the case, leaving it up to the 47 00:02:39.599 --> 00:02:42.319 reader to make up their own mind about the killers 48 00:02:42.680 --> 00:02:46.560 and their crimes. The book draws on handwritten letters from 49 00:02:46.719 --> 00:02:50.360 the inmates and full transcripts of the interviews to tell 50 00:02:50.400 --> 00:02:56.400 each story, and features exclusive material including personal pictures, crime 51 00:02:56.479 --> 00:03:00.719 scene images, and original police and court documents. This is 52 00:03:00.759 --> 00:03:04.400 a fascinating and detailed look at some of America's most 53 00:03:04.400 --> 00:03:08.000 gripping murder cases. The book that we're featuring this evening 54 00:03:08.280 --> 00:03:12.479 is I Am a Killer. Inside the Mind of Murderers, 55 00:03:12.759 --> 00:03:17.439 with my special guests, documentary film producers and authors Danny 56 00:03:17.479 --> 00:03:20.719 Tipping and Ned Parker. Thank you very much for this 57 00:03:20.800 --> 00:03:25.039 interview and welcome to the program. Danny Tipping and Ned Parker. 58 00:03:25.560 --> 00:03:27.479 Thank you for having us Ruby to meet you. 59 00:03:27.560 --> 00:03:30.800 Dan, thank you very much, and congratulations on this book 60 00:03:30.840 --> 00:03:34.199 I Am a Killer. Let's start off with the genesis 61 00:03:34.199 --> 00:03:37.439 of this book. Why did you both decide to write 62 00:03:37.479 --> 00:03:38.080 this book. 63 00:03:38.240 --> 00:03:41.719 We've been chasing the series I'm a killophone Netflix for 64 00:03:42.400 --> 00:03:46.120 well since back in twenty nineteen, well twenty seventeen, when 65 00:03:46.120 --> 00:03:49.000 we started into pick production on the series, and we 66 00:03:49.360 --> 00:03:52.360 generated lot of stories and that you can see as 67 00:03:52.400 --> 00:03:55.159 part of that series and now and it's fourth season. 68 00:03:55.360 --> 00:03:59.000 There were elements of the story that we couldn't always 69 00:03:59.199 --> 00:04:01.919 get to in a a forty or fifty minute documentary 70 00:04:01.960 --> 00:04:04.120 that we still wanted to explore and share with people. 71 00:04:04.319 --> 00:04:06.280 And also because of the success of the series, obviously 72 00:04:06.280 --> 00:04:08.319 that that gave usn opportunity to do that. So we 73 00:04:08.479 --> 00:04:10.840 got together with a publisher and sort of started setting 74 00:04:10.840 --> 00:04:13.520 about selecting stories from the first couple of series that 75 00:04:13.560 --> 00:04:15.120 we could expand upon for the book. 76 00:04:15.199 --> 00:04:18.680 Tell us about the criteria that you used to include 77 00:04:18.720 --> 00:04:19.639 these ten stories. 78 00:04:19.720 --> 00:04:23.000 We were really interested with with I mckiller, in looking 79 00:04:23.040 --> 00:04:25.319 at stories which and all the sort of stories necessarily 80 00:04:25.360 --> 00:04:29.040 normally covered in kind of true crime broadcasting. We were 81 00:04:29.040 --> 00:04:32.120 looking for stories which had an unknown largely unknown to 82 00:04:32.160 --> 00:04:34.560 the public, but which touched on kind of bigger themes, 83 00:04:34.680 --> 00:04:37.319 which told us a little bit more about kind of 84 00:04:37.360 --> 00:04:41.120 a bigger topic than necessarily just the individual and their murder. 85 00:04:41.480 --> 00:04:44.000 So we looked for stories which could kind of yeah, 86 00:04:44.199 --> 00:04:47.680 for example, the James Robertson is the first episode of 87 00:04:47.720 --> 00:04:50.319 the first series, and he also appears in the book. 88 00:04:50.560 --> 00:04:53.560 He was somebody who appears of first glance as a 89 00:04:53.600 --> 00:04:56.199 complete monster, And I think our approach to these was 90 00:04:56.439 --> 00:04:59.759 we wanted to find stories where you could say, Okay, yes, 91 00:05:00.040 --> 00:05:02.639 he's done horrific things and awful things, but no matter 92 00:05:02.680 --> 00:05:04.839 how awful he is, he is still a human being. 93 00:05:04.839 --> 00:05:07.279 He's not a caricature. He is a human being and 94 00:05:07.319 --> 00:05:09.600 there is something human within it. And the important thing 95 00:05:09.639 --> 00:05:11.240 was to try and kind of find that and see 96 00:05:11.439 --> 00:05:14.120 there's something that you could relate to, not necessarily meaning 97 00:05:14.160 --> 00:05:16.839 that you've found empathy or sympathy for him, but you 98 00:05:16.879 --> 00:05:21.360 could certainly relate to the kind of the human motivations 99 00:05:21.399 --> 00:05:24.399 in his life. So we were setting out to look 100 00:05:24.399 --> 00:05:27.600 for those stories, and there's some things that we were 101 00:05:27.639 --> 00:05:29.360 going to go to whether Danny and will Will work. 102 00:05:29.519 --> 00:05:32.240 Very clear, we weren't going to include any killers who 103 00:05:32.800 --> 00:05:35.199 were unwilling to admit what they'd done, or at least 104 00:05:35.199 --> 00:05:37.079 they broad contacts to what they've done. That the point 105 00:05:37.199 --> 00:05:39.000 was that they had to speak open me and say, yes, 106 00:05:39.240 --> 00:05:41.759 I took another person's life, because we didn't want to 107 00:05:41.759 --> 00:05:43.959 get into the kind of who done it or or 108 00:05:44.040 --> 00:05:46.759 proving them or at the Gotscham moments, it was don't 109 00:05:46.800 --> 00:05:48.560 know if you can at least start with the fact that, yes, 110 00:05:48.600 --> 00:05:50.560 you admit he killed somebody's lives, and I think there's 111 00:05:50.600 --> 00:05:51.560 something we can learn from that. 112 00:05:51.600 --> 00:05:51.959 Person. 113 00:05:52.240 --> 00:05:54.079 So that was the first comic criteria, and we wrote 114 00:05:54.120 --> 00:05:56.759 to thousands of people across the US and everything was 115 00:05:56.800 --> 00:05:58.720 done by a hand written letter at the time, and 116 00:05:58.720 --> 00:06:00.759 it took a long time for those responses to go 117 00:06:00.800 --> 00:06:03.079 back and forth. So somebody who admitted what they've done, 118 00:06:03.279 --> 00:06:06.519 somebody who hadn't involved in a mass shooting or a 119 00:06:06.600 --> 00:06:09.360 terrorist thing or anything which could inspire somebody else into 120 00:06:09.360 --> 00:06:11.639 a kind of a copycat killing. We also don't want 121 00:06:11.680 --> 00:06:15.920 anyone who was involved with sexual violence, crimes or et cetera, 122 00:06:16.120 --> 00:06:20.560 or anything involved children and the infantas side, because our 123 00:06:20.600 --> 00:06:23.680 point was not to troll kind of campaign for these individuals, 124 00:06:23.680 --> 00:06:25.839 but to allow a viewers to be able to view them, 125 00:06:25.879 --> 00:06:27.920 as I say, as human and I think there are 126 00:06:27.920 --> 00:06:31.040 some crimes which are just too difficult for anybody to 127 00:06:31.040 --> 00:06:33.759 sit and saying right within forty five minutes of the film, 128 00:06:33.920 --> 00:06:35.399 I can watch this and I can relate to this 129 00:06:35.439 --> 00:06:37.199 person at all. You know, there are somethings will make 130 00:06:37.240 --> 00:06:41.160 them thoroughly unrelatable. So that was kind of our criteria, 131 00:06:41.319 --> 00:06:43.839 and we started on with just for people who receive 132 00:06:43.920 --> 00:06:46.560 death sentences, were either on death thrown or had been 133 00:06:46.600 --> 00:06:49.120 on death row, and by season two, we expanded that 134 00:06:49.160 --> 00:06:51.399 out a little bit. One of the reasons was was 135 00:06:51.439 --> 00:06:55.160 we also wanted to have female voices because although most murders, 136 00:06:55.160 --> 00:06:58.439 but by far right away most murders are committed by men, 137 00:06:58.959 --> 00:07:02.160 there is something very different about the female experience and 138 00:07:02.199 --> 00:07:07.000 motivations and causes for a woman to take another person's life. 139 00:07:07.399 --> 00:07:09.480 So we started looking at that, and we included some 140 00:07:09.519 --> 00:07:12.319 female cases in second series and also all third and 141 00:07:12.319 --> 00:07:14.959 fourth series as well, So we've had a lot of 142 00:07:15.160 --> 00:07:18.040 different stories. When we were looking at bringing it to 143 00:07:18.079 --> 00:07:20.399 a book, we wanted to select those which we thought 144 00:07:20.480 --> 00:07:23.680 kind of supported each other in showing we're not sure 145 00:07:23.560 --> 00:07:25.240 a thesis is the right work, but are kind of. 146 00:07:26.680 --> 00:07:28.519 What we discovered as being. 147 00:07:28.480 --> 00:07:31.560 The kind of the commonalities, of course, which lead people 148 00:07:32.240 --> 00:07:33.680 making these sorrific decisions. 149 00:07:33.800 --> 00:07:35.639 Yeah, and I think I think the book with the 150 00:07:35.720 --> 00:07:37.800 ten stories in the book from you know, from the 151 00:07:37.800 --> 00:07:40.560 twenty episodes in the first two series, it's a good 152 00:07:40.560 --> 00:07:43.759 class section. It gives you a kind of a I think, 153 00:07:43.800 --> 00:07:46.639 a taste or I don't know if you have what 154 00:07:46.720 --> 00:07:49.319 we've turned in the series, and they're sort of contrasting stories, 155 00:07:49.360 --> 00:07:52.879 but of course there are lots of commonalities as we've 156 00:07:52.879 --> 00:07:56.720 said often that you know the extreme poverty, physical, mental, 157 00:07:56.720 --> 00:07:59.680 and sexual abuse in the home, drug and alcohol abuse. 158 00:07:59.759 --> 00:08:01.879 You know that obviously, these come up time and time 159 00:08:01.920 --> 00:08:04.759 again when you're looking at convicted felons and killers, and 160 00:08:05.120 --> 00:08:09.879 not that any of those hardships excuse or lesson that 161 00:08:10.079 --> 00:08:12.680 the you know, the horrendous crimes they have committed, but 162 00:08:13.120 --> 00:08:15.759 it starts giving you a picture of how somebody could 163 00:08:15.759 --> 00:08:18.480 get the point whether they're able to take another human life. 164 00:08:18.519 --> 00:08:21.000 And that was something that we hadn't we hadn't looked 165 00:08:21.000 --> 00:08:23.079 at before, and it hadn't actually until he came on 166 00:08:23.120 --> 00:08:25.680 to I'm a Killer Done true Crime. I'd done a 167 00:08:25.680 --> 00:08:28.319 bit of true crime documentary making, and we hadn't spent 168 00:08:28.360 --> 00:08:30.480 a lot of time, well, we'd spent no time at 169 00:08:30.480 --> 00:08:32.600 all actually talking to the killers and just. 170 00:08:32.480 --> 00:08:33.480 Finding their motivations. 171 00:08:33.480 --> 00:08:36.039 We're much more engaged with like a lot of true crime, 172 00:08:36.080 --> 00:08:39.600 in the actual mechanics of the murder and the investigation 173 00:08:39.679 --> 00:08:43.120 that happens afterwards. So I guess the idea for this 174 00:08:43.200 --> 00:08:45.080 series was to start at the other end, to start 175 00:08:45.120 --> 00:08:47.480 with the killers, find out how they got the point 176 00:08:47.480 --> 00:08:49.399 where they could take a life, and at every point 177 00:08:49.679 --> 00:08:51.559 that the biggest character, I guess, and it shows is 178 00:08:51.559 --> 00:08:55.480 the victim. That we're absolutely sensitive to the victim and 179 00:08:55.759 --> 00:08:58.679 their families and the events that have led to them 180 00:08:58.720 --> 00:09:02.000 losing a loved one. So it's a lot to juggle 181 00:09:02.039 --> 00:09:04.840 actually in a single story. And I guess that coming 182 00:09:04.840 --> 00:09:07.639 back to the book, were able to expand a little 183 00:09:07.639 --> 00:09:09.080 bit on those stories in a book that in a 184 00:09:09.120 --> 00:09:11.840 way that we have we weren't able to perhaps in 185 00:09:11.879 --> 00:09:16.080 a in a fortune five fifteen minute documentary. So viewers 186 00:09:16.080 --> 00:09:17.679 of the series we'll see that we've gone into a 187 00:09:17.679 --> 00:09:20.080 little bit more detail on each of the cases. 188 00:09:20.080 --> 00:09:21.279 They might already be familiar with. 189 00:09:21.440 --> 00:09:24.080 Another thing, which is down which is is different with 190 00:09:24.120 --> 00:09:27.080 the book to the documentary series itself is but the 191 00:09:27.120 --> 00:09:30.600 documentaries we kind of established a format in which you 192 00:09:31.080 --> 00:09:34.279 hear firstly the voice of the killer and then once yeah, 193 00:09:34.279 --> 00:09:36.519 that's about the first ten to fifteen minutes or so 194 00:09:36.840 --> 00:09:39.480 of each film, and then you hear in turn the 195 00:09:39.559 --> 00:09:41.759 voices are of while the people committed to the case, 196 00:09:41.960 --> 00:09:47.440 they related to the victim, related to the killer, investigators, prosecution, defense, 197 00:09:47.600 --> 00:09:49.919 whoever they are they might be, but you already hear 198 00:09:49.919 --> 00:09:51.600 from them one at a time. Now, the reason we 199 00:09:51.639 --> 00:09:53.799 did that is we kind of based off our experiences 200 00:09:54.080 --> 00:09:57.480 by having done jury duty in the day. In a 201 00:09:57.480 --> 00:10:00.320 criminal trial, you'll you'll have our witness will come forward 202 00:10:00.360 --> 00:10:02.679 and they'll give their testimony and then they're gone, so 203 00:10:02.759 --> 00:10:05.360 you don't kind of hear from them again. And obviously 204 00:10:05.519 --> 00:10:09.440 more traditional kind of trin crime documentaries, you'll hear voices 205 00:10:09.440 --> 00:10:11.480 all kind of cut together and you get little bits. 206 00:10:11.320 --> 00:10:12.480 Here and there and everywhere else. 207 00:10:12.559 --> 00:10:14.840 But we thought this idea of taking journeys, viewer has 208 00:10:14.879 --> 00:10:17.159 to kind of pay attention and listen. So, okay, something 209 00:10:17.159 --> 00:10:19.559 that you've heard fifteen minutes into the film and not 210 00:10:19.679 --> 00:10:21.639 have relevance until later on, that you have to kind 211 00:10:21.679 --> 00:10:23.000 of pay attention to it and you're not going to 212 00:10:23.080 --> 00:10:25.759 hear from that person again. And we found that structure 213 00:10:25.919 --> 00:10:29.240 worked really well for the documentaries. That's what we continue 214 00:10:29.240 --> 00:10:31.039 to do. That's what we think, well, it makes this 215 00:10:31.360 --> 00:10:33.559 a series of films work well. But of course it 216 00:10:33.600 --> 00:10:36.360 means that if somebody is talking to you about an 217 00:10:36.360 --> 00:10:38.720 element of the story and they come in early on, 218 00:10:38.799 --> 00:10:40.799 it means if they you don't bring them back later on, 219 00:10:40.840 --> 00:10:43.480 and they might have had something really interesting to say 220 00:10:43.519 --> 00:10:46.120 about something that we were here later So going through 221 00:10:46.120 --> 00:10:48.240 all the transcripts of all of these interviews, some of 222 00:10:48.320 --> 00:10:50.720 them are like two three four hours long, and you know, 223 00:10:50.759 --> 00:10:52.480 we spend a lot of time with these people who 224 00:10:52.480 --> 00:10:54.600 realize we had all of this material, and actually, in 225 00:10:54.600 --> 00:10:56.919 the way that we've constructed the book is that it's 226 00:10:56.960 --> 00:10:58.919 not it's a freer way of doing it. We can 227 00:10:59.000 --> 00:11:01.559 jump from person to us, and last think that helps 228 00:11:01.879 --> 00:11:04.360 when reading the books that if you haven't heard of 229 00:11:04.399 --> 00:11:06.320 the story before, if you haven't lost the film, you're 230 00:11:06.320 --> 00:11:08.000 all going to get a very full kind of picture 231 00:11:08.039 --> 00:11:09.919 of it. But even if you have watched the films 232 00:11:09.919 --> 00:11:11.720 and need them to start to be able to draw 233 00:11:11.879 --> 00:11:15.120 lines and comparisons and conclusions that you might not otherwise 234 00:11:15.159 --> 00:11:18.279 have done. So although they're very differently seen, they're very complimentary. 235 00:11:18.279 --> 00:11:19.679 You know, they both kind of work well. But it's 236 00:11:19.720 --> 00:11:22.039 fun for us. So there was a suddenly interesting for 237 00:11:22.120 --> 00:11:23.759 us to kind of look at telling those stories in 238 00:11:23.759 --> 00:11:24.360 a different way. 239 00:11:24.559 --> 00:11:27.799 This idea that you would have this second interview. What 240 00:11:27.919 --> 00:11:30.399 I think is not so clear for the audience is 241 00:11:30.399 --> 00:11:33.960 that every story is looked at through other people's eyes 242 00:11:34.000 --> 00:11:37.360 other than the killer, and from their perspective. So the 243 00:11:37.399 --> 00:11:40.759 anguish of the victims' families, the insights of the police, 244 00:11:40.759 --> 00:11:45.519 potentially attorneys and the jurors sometimes and the pain for 245 00:11:45.639 --> 00:11:48.159 those that care for the inmate as well. But also 246 00:11:48.240 --> 00:11:52.360 in that that there is often I found you discover 247 00:11:52.759 --> 00:11:58.440 different information that was then initially the prisoner had conveyed 248 00:11:58.600 --> 00:11:59.759 in the interview. 249 00:11:59.559 --> 00:12:03.200 Can you Yeah, that's right, and I think, well, one 250 00:12:03.519 --> 00:12:06.080 the break between the first and second interviews is quite 251 00:12:06.080 --> 00:12:08.639 often depending on which state you're filming, in provision of 252 00:12:08.639 --> 00:12:10.720 the court and our access to the prisoner, so that 253 00:12:10.759 --> 00:12:12.600 there has to be a break between you know, you 254 00:12:12.679 --> 00:12:16.159 have three months between media access. So in most but 255 00:12:16.240 --> 00:12:18.440 not every case, we have to we do our initial 256 00:12:18.480 --> 00:12:21.679 interview and then we have to wait three months before 257 00:12:21.720 --> 00:12:24.279 we can we can get access to the prisoner and 258 00:12:24.279 --> 00:12:27.399 the prison again, which initially we thought might be a problem, 259 00:12:27.399 --> 00:12:29.759 but as it turned out, I think ned will embrace 260 00:12:29.840 --> 00:12:31.639 that as part of the format. That says, it gave 261 00:12:31.720 --> 00:12:34.200 us time to then go, you know, break through that 262 00:12:34.519 --> 00:12:37.960 first interview and then interview the other contributors to the show. 263 00:12:38.000 --> 00:12:41.799 That the friends, the relatives, that family members, police investigators. 264 00:12:41.919 --> 00:12:44.080 It was a happy accident, really wasn't done in a 265 00:12:44.120 --> 00:12:44.519 weird way. 266 00:12:44.639 --> 00:12:48.000 Yeah, we established it in Texas was the first place 267 00:12:48.039 --> 00:12:50.600 we were looking, and there's a minimum ninety days between 268 00:12:50.639 --> 00:12:52.480 when you interview them, and you can only interview for 269 00:12:52.519 --> 00:12:55.559 one hour. So we thought, hang On wanted to go 270 00:12:55.600 --> 00:12:58.720 and hear these stories told by the killers themselves, but 271 00:12:58.759 --> 00:13:00.639 there's no way that they could cover thing we needed 272 00:13:00.639 --> 00:13:00.879 in the. 273 00:13:00.799 --> 00:13:01.799 Space of an hour. 274 00:13:02.360 --> 00:13:04.159 And that was that was our pot of Okay, well, 275 00:13:04.200 --> 00:13:06.440 when we just give them their first bite and then 276 00:13:06.840 --> 00:13:10.039 we'll come back three months later after we've managed to 277 00:13:10.080 --> 00:13:12.279 talk to everybody else, and will they. 278 00:13:12.200 --> 00:13:13.879 Have their kind of reaction to that? 279 00:13:14.440 --> 00:13:17.240 And that kind of inspired then our thoughts about this. 280 00:13:17.240 --> 00:13:19.120 This this kind of idea of based on the jury 281 00:13:19.639 --> 00:13:22.799 service idea of having each contribute to cover up one 282 00:13:22.840 --> 00:13:25.840 in too, And that's really kind of where the format 283 00:13:26.000 --> 00:13:28.360 came from. But I think, as Danny you was saying 284 00:13:28.360 --> 00:13:30.559 to you that this it means also they're very different 285 00:13:30.559 --> 00:13:32.960 in the two interviews. That is kind of that first interview. 286 00:13:32.960 --> 00:13:34.679 We don't press them, do we know? 287 00:13:34.759 --> 00:13:36.879 And I think I think it was important as well 288 00:13:36.919 --> 00:13:40.799 to gain the trusts as well as the inmates, so 289 00:13:40.840 --> 00:13:44.200 obviously our telling us their story and to allow them 290 00:13:44.240 --> 00:13:46.519 so effectively. We've always said and I've said this before 291 00:13:46.480 --> 00:13:48.480 in another interview, is that the first interview is their 292 00:13:48.519 --> 00:13:50.919 interview and the second interview is our interview. So we 293 00:13:51.000 --> 00:13:52.919 let them tell the story and the truth as they 294 00:13:53.120 --> 00:13:55.639 they're prepared to tell it, and then we come back 295 00:13:55.879 --> 00:13:58.399 then armed with obviously more questions, but also at the 296 00:13:58.440 --> 00:14:01.480 perspective we think may may or may not have actually happened. 297 00:14:01.480 --> 00:14:04.399 Once we've spoken to everybody else involved, we can press 298 00:14:04.399 --> 00:14:07.039 a little harder in that second interview. And sometimes people 299 00:14:07.080 --> 00:14:09.720 absolutely sick their stories and that's the truth they're willing 300 00:14:09.759 --> 00:14:11.960 to share. And other times you'll see, both in the 301 00:14:11.960 --> 00:14:14.960 book and in the series on Netflix, you'll see the 302 00:14:15.000 --> 00:14:19.639 series that the stories rather change quite dramatically in some cases. 303 00:14:19.440 --> 00:14:21.919 Sometimes not always the way you expect them to. Sometimes 304 00:14:21.960 --> 00:14:24.440 they've not told you something in the first interview and 305 00:14:24.480 --> 00:14:26.559 you realize they're kind of they're holding it back, or 306 00:14:26.720 --> 00:14:30.200 they're consciously trying not to share that information. They're trying 307 00:14:30.240 --> 00:14:31.960 to pain themselves on the best light. But of course 308 00:14:31.960 --> 00:14:34.039 you go back three or four months later and you say, well, 309 00:14:34.080 --> 00:14:36.559 you know, you didn't reveal this particular part, but we've 310 00:14:36.559 --> 00:14:38.759 spoken to everybody else, and you didn't tell us this thing, 311 00:14:38.799 --> 00:14:41.159 which makes you look far far worse, and they might 312 00:14:41.240 --> 00:14:43.559 have a reason why. But also sometimes they just don't 313 00:14:43.600 --> 00:14:46.000 tell you things which you think, we're really key, It 314 00:14:46.000 --> 00:14:49.679 would be really important to hear things which might give 315 00:14:50.039 --> 00:14:52.360 some sort of mitigation to their actions or at least 316 00:14:52.360 --> 00:14:54.919 making you kind of think somewhat better of them. A 317 00:14:54.919 --> 00:14:58.200 lot of them have still being the victims of abuse, violence, abuse, 318 00:14:58.279 --> 00:15:01.000 or section abuse of some sort. Some of them surprisingly 319 00:15:01.080 --> 00:15:03.879 open talking about that, others aren't. And it's only really 320 00:15:03.879 --> 00:15:06.200 when you hear from other family members and something else. 321 00:15:06.279 --> 00:15:08.480 You hear something about their background, which makes things a 322 00:15:08.480 --> 00:15:12.200 lot easier to understand, But they themselves didn't present that, 323 00:15:12.480 --> 00:15:15.120 so it's interesting. And we also decided that, you know, 324 00:15:15.200 --> 00:15:17.240 with the permission of the various people we interview, to 325 00:15:17.679 --> 00:15:20.399 play back to them the words which other people had 326 00:15:20.399 --> 00:15:24.080 said about them. Sometimes members of the victim's family happy 327 00:15:24.080 --> 00:15:27.399 for that to happen, or prosecutor or an investigator, and 328 00:15:27.440 --> 00:15:29.840 getting their reaction to that, I think is really important, 329 00:15:30.039 --> 00:15:32.360 and I think that gives the viewer a good chance 330 00:15:32.440 --> 00:15:35.360 to be able to sit and decide whether they yeah 331 00:15:35.480 --> 00:15:38.200 how they feel about that individual. And again in the book, 332 00:15:38.279 --> 00:15:40.679 the same thing happens. You know, we played back quite 333 00:15:40.720 --> 00:15:42.440 a lot of stuff to them when we interview them, 334 00:15:42.480 --> 00:15:45.000 and we don't necessarily include all of those in the films, 335 00:15:45.000 --> 00:15:46.759 but when we were writing the book, it gave us 336 00:15:46.759 --> 00:15:48.759 a chance to kind of give more of their reactions 337 00:15:48.759 --> 00:15:52.440 to the things they've heard said about them decades after 338 00:15:52.440 --> 00:15:52.840 the event. 339 00:15:53.000 --> 00:15:56.519 Let me list the chapters that you do have, and 340 00:15:56.559 --> 00:15:59.519 then we'll go back right to the beginning and explore 341 00:15:59.559 --> 00:16:02.000 them a lot a little bit further, and you can 342 00:16:02.159 --> 00:16:05.600 have some commentary on these extraordinary stories. The first story 343 00:16:05.639 --> 00:16:08.639 you have is the first chapter you have is Overkill 344 00:16:08.919 --> 00:16:13.759 David Barnett. The second story is intended Evil Charles Chuck Thompson. 345 00:16:14.039 --> 00:16:17.720 The third is Trapped Linda Couch. The fourth means to 346 00:16:17.759 --> 00:16:21.440 an End James Robertson. Of number five is Pyro Joe 347 00:16:21.600 --> 00:16:24.120 Joey Murphy. Number six killer in the Eyes of the 348 00:16:24.240 --> 00:16:29.519 Law Kenneth Foster, then a silent Order Brandon Hutchison, then 349 00:16:29.639 --> 00:16:35.080 a family affair DeAndre Buchanan, then crossing the Line Kavona, Illinois. 350 00:16:35.200 --> 00:16:39.320 And the last story Owning It Charles Armantrout. Let's go 351 00:16:39.440 --> 00:16:43.080 to the first story, Overkill with David Barnett. Can you 352 00:16:43.159 --> 00:16:47.120 just give a description of this story and why you 353 00:16:47.240 --> 00:16:47.679 chose it. 354 00:16:47.799 --> 00:16:49.720 I mean, this is one that when it went out 355 00:16:49.879 --> 00:16:53.559 on Netflix, gotten incredibly strong reaction from the view as No, 356 00:16:53.960 --> 00:16:56.200 I think that's that's fair to say. As an interviewee, 357 00:16:56.240 --> 00:16:59.879 I think David comes across as open and likable, one 358 00:16:59.879 --> 00:17:00.759 of a better word, and. 359 00:17:00.720 --> 00:17:03.279 His story is tragic and very sad. 360 00:17:03.679 --> 00:17:05.960 His crime is probably one of the worst we've covered 361 00:17:06.119 --> 00:17:09.319 in as much as he ends up killing his step 362 00:17:09.359 --> 00:17:12.960 grandparents or foster grandparents and fetal blacked out and can't remember, 363 00:17:13.119 --> 00:17:15.640 and he's accused of overkill, which is the title of 364 00:17:15.279 --> 00:17:19.599 the chapter and the film, because he stabbed them multiple times, 365 00:17:19.880 --> 00:17:23.640 which is quite a shocking quiet. The background to the 366 00:17:23.680 --> 00:17:28.119 story is really layered, and it's very sad and tragic 367 00:17:28.160 --> 00:17:30.720 story that we I think we perhaps didn't until we 368 00:17:30.720 --> 00:17:32.680 were deep into it and we've done the interview and 369 00:17:32.720 --> 00:17:36.039 then started interviewing the other contributors probably hadn't fully appreciated, 370 00:17:36.039 --> 00:17:36.920 and I think that's fair. 371 00:17:37.039 --> 00:17:40.160 So Yeah, when David was writing to us this episode 372 00:17:40.319 --> 00:17:43.160 was that the films was to direct by Zowie Hines, 373 00:17:43.720 --> 00:17:47.319 who produces the series with us, and David had been 374 00:17:47.319 --> 00:17:51.000 writing about sexual abusety experience for a very young age, 375 00:17:51.000 --> 00:17:53.599 and we've been passed through and foster care system from 376 00:17:53.599 --> 00:17:56.480 person to person. He'd had only one experience that kind 377 00:17:56.480 --> 00:17:59.839 of suitable parenting at all, that was fairly short lived, 378 00:18:00.079 --> 00:18:02.279 and it was we knew it was very, very sad. 379 00:18:02.319 --> 00:18:04.720 But then we read a lot of letters from inmates. 380 00:18:04.799 --> 00:18:07.440 You never know fully to what degree that they're telling 381 00:18:07.440 --> 00:18:10.759 the truth, to a degree they're embellishing on things, maybe 382 00:18:10.799 --> 00:18:13.640 to try to get join this sympathy from you. But 383 00:18:13.720 --> 00:18:15.359 we didn't know as we set out, but as it 384 00:18:15.440 --> 00:18:18.640 became clearer and clearer talking to other people who were 385 00:18:18.640 --> 00:18:21.599 close to David and family and friends and others. He 386 00:18:21.720 --> 00:18:25.920 was a deeply, deeply damaged child and he had a 387 00:18:26.000 --> 00:18:30.119 very difficult relationship with his adopted father. Was his adopted 388 00:18:30.160 --> 00:18:33.319 father's parents who ended up killing And regardless of what 389 00:18:33.359 --> 00:18:37.039 you feel about the level of responsibility as for that 390 00:18:37.160 --> 00:18:39.640 crime that he committed, I don't think there be anyone 391 00:18:39.680 --> 00:18:43.559 who wouldn't consider his child and his background and mitigation 392 00:18:43.720 --> 00:18:45.599 of some sort or at least it helps you to 393 00:18:45.720 --> 00:18:47.799 understand how we got there. And I think I think 394 00:18:47.839 --> 00:18:51.079 that's particularly least sorts of stories where there is a 395 00:18:51.119 --> 00:18:54.880 commonality of abuse. I think one psychiatrists that we promo 396 00:18:54.960 --> 00:18:57.519 psychologists we interviewed all the time. I think, but if 397 00:18:57.599 --> 00:18:59.880 very well it is said, you know, these awful backgrounds 398 00:19:00.039 --> 00:19:02.559 don't make you a killer. They don't mean because you've 399 00:19:02.839 --> 00:19:05.640 you've been abused or anything else, that you're going to 400 00:19:05.720 --> 00:19:06.279 end up killing. 401 00:19:06.319 --> 00:19:06.799