WEBVTT 1 00:00:00.760 --> 00:00:03.680 You're listening to an airwave media podcast. 2 00:00:04.599 --> 00:00:07.719 Are you afraid to take a shower behind a translucent curtain, 3 00:00:08.320 --> 00:00:10.800 unable to escape the image of a crazed killer with 4 00:00:10.800 --> 00:00:14.439 a butcher's knife, Or perhaps you worry about the mysterious 5 00:00:14.519 --> 00:00:19.399 plane van slowly patrolling your neighborhood looking for what exactly. 6 00:00:20.960 --> 00:00:24.280 Many of us only know psychopathy through fiction and pop culture, 7 00:00:24.359 --> 00:00:28.000 and the history of psychopathic killers is quite real. The 8 00:00:28.039 --> 00:00:31.239 good news is that most psychopaths are not killers. The 9 00:00:31.320 --> 00:00:35.920 bad news is that psychopathy is probably more malevolent and 10 00:00:36.079 --> 00:00:42.439 prevalent than you would imagine. The psychopath Test. Next on 11 00:00:42.640 --> 00:00:45.320 Monster Talk, it's actually. 12 00:00:45.079 --> 00:00:47.200 Quite unlike anything we've ever seen before. 13 00:00:49.320 --> 00:00:52.600 A giant airy creature, part ape and part of mass 14 00:00:54.000 --> 00:00:57.039 in Luckness, a twenty four mile long bottomless lake in 15 00:00:57.079 --> 00:00:59.679 the Highlands of Scotland. It's a creature known as the 16 00:00:59.759 --> 00:01:25.519 luck Yest Monster. 17 00:01:22.959 --> 00:01:28.000 Monster t Welcome to Monster Talk, the science show about monsters. 18 00:01:28.159 --> 00:01:31.239 I'm Blake Smith and together with Ben Radford and Karen Stoles. 19 00:01:31.239 --> 00:01:34.719 Now we talk about monsters, myths and science fact. Today's 20 00:01:34.760 --> 00:01:37.359 topic is one that we will be visiting again. Our 21 00:01:37.359 --> 00:01:40.439 guest is John Ronson, whose book The Psychopath Test just 22 00:01:40.480 --> 00:01:43.200 came out in paperback. It's a fun read about a 23 00:01:43.280 --> 00:01:47.439 very unfun topic. Psychopaths are in some respects quite like 24 00:01:47.519 --> 00:01:50.599 pod people from Invasion of the Body Snatchers. They look 25 00:01:50.680 --> 00:01:52.799 like you and me, they act like you and me, 26 00:01:53.239 --> 00:01:57.079 but inside they could be quite alien. Of course, most 27 00:01:57.200 --> 00:02:00.879 psychopaths are not serial killers or child molesters, but they 28 00:02:00.959 --> 00:02:05.000 quite simply don't have the same emotional underpinnings as most humans, 29 00:02:05.040 --> 00:02:08.639 and therefore no internal punishment system to prevent bad behavior. 30 00:02:09.159 --> 00:02:13.039 They feel no remorse, they feel no guilt, and some 31 00:02:13.080 --> 00:02:15.800 of them even doubt such feelings exist in everyone else, 32 00:02:16.000 --> 00:02:19.800 having never experienced such things themselves. This episode of Monster 33 00:02:19.879 --> 00:02:22.400 Talk will not protect you from psychopaths. It won't tell 34 00:02:22.400 --> 00:02:25.080 you how to avoid being manipulated by them or deceived, 35 00:02:25.400 --> 00:02:27.879 but it does give you an overview of both psychopathy 36 00:02:28.360 --> 00:02:30.759 and a bit of info on Ronson's book, which of 37 00:02:30.759 --> 00:02:33.719 course goes into much more detail. The psychopath Test isn't 38 00:02:33.759 --> 00:02:36.599 just a story about identifying such people. It's also a 39 00:02:36.599 --> 00:02:39.319 story about the abuse that can happen when people believe 40 00:02:39.639 --> 00:02:42.400 that they have a full proof method for such identification. 41 00:02:43.400 --> 00:02:46.240 For you, see, there's no cure for psychopathy, and once 42 00:02:46.280 --> 00:02:49.000 you're so labeled it could be nearly impossible to get 43 00:02:49.080 --> 00:02:51.039 rid of that label if it's been misapplied. 44 00:02:51.599 --> 00:02:52.560 More instrutle. 45 00:02:53.919 --> 00:02:56.680 Okay, today we're gonna talk to John Ronson about his 46 00:02:57.479 --> 00:03:00.800 This is your most recent book, right, okay, so this 47 00:03:00.919 --> 00:03:02.000 is The psychopath Test. 48 00:03:02.000 --> 00:03:03.319 It's now coming out in paperback. 49 00:03:03.800 --> 00:03:07.039 But you're also people our listeners may know you from 50 00:03:07.039 --> 00:03:10.719 the Men Who's Derek, Goats Are Them? Or any number 51 00:03:10.759 --> 00:03:13.439 of really cool British documentaries. 52 00:03:13.840 --> 00:03:16.439 So that's nice. But how did how did you come 53 00:03:16.479 --> 00:03:17.800 to write about psychopaths? 54 00:03:18.960 --> 00:03:20.360 God, I'll tell you what it was. 55 00:03:20.400 --> 00:03:20.719 It was. 56 00:03:21.199 --> 00:03:25.439 It was I met a woman who was who married 57 00:03:25.439 --> 00:03:30.039 a guy internet dating, and he was he was a 58 00:03:30.159 --> 00:03:34.560 very gallant man. He would always walk on the road 59 00:03:34.680 --> 00:03:38.520 side of the pavement, for instance, which I didn't even 60 00:03:38.599 --> 00:03:41.439 realize was a was a gallant thing to do. That's 61 00:03:41.479 --> 00:03:43.719 how ungallant I am. 62 00:03:44.400 --> 00:03:46.520 And you know, he was very suave. 63 00:03:46.879 --> 00:03:50.039 And she married him and he told him that he 64 00:03:50.120 --> 00:03:53.000 worked for the CIA, so he'd go off for months 65 00:03:53.000 --> 00:03:59.439 on end to Janine your Palestine, and she'd get these 66 00:04:00.400 --> 00:04:05.360 texts from the CIA, like protected texts saying he's okay, 67 00:04:05.560 --> 00:04:08.360 he's fired, he's been injured, but he's fine. And this 68 00:04:08.400 --> 00:04:10.400 one for about eight years, and then she discovered that 69 00:04:10.439 --> 00:04:12.840 he wasn't in the CIA at all. He was a 70 00:04:13.360 --> 00:04:17.839 fraudster and a bigamist, and when he was in Janine, 71 00:04:17.839 --> 00:04:20.279 he was actually at his other family's house just down 72 00:04:20.319 --> 00:04:25.600 the road. So two things came from the story that 73 00:04:25.720 --> 00:04:29.439 just stayed with me. One was I said to Mary, 74 00:04:29.600 --> 00:04:33.439 so do you feel hurt by it all? And she said, well, no, 75 00:04:33.560 --> 00:04:38.319 because does the wilderbeast feel hurt when it's being chased 76 00:04:38.360 --> 00:04:42.040 by the lion? No, the wilderbeest knows it's not personal, 77 00:04:42.279 --> 00:04:46.120 and he's a psychopath and it's not personal. So I 78 00:04:46.120 --> 00:04:48.560 thought that was an extraordinary thing to say about a 79 00:04:48.639 --> 00:04:53.560 human being. And also I spoke to a psychologist named 80 00:04:53.680 --> 00:04:57.000 Martha Stout who said that the condition that this guy 81 00:04:57.560 --> 00:05:01.680 suffers from is the condition that effectively rules the world. 82 00:05:01.839 --> 00:05:06.279 That psychopathy is so powerful it's remolded society or wrong. 83 00:05:06.319 --> 00:05:09.120 And that reminded me of David Ike, who I wrote 84 00:05:09.120 --> 00:05:13.480 about in my book Them and David Ike said that giant, 85 00:05:13.519 --> 00:05:18.199 blood drinking, pedophile, child sacrificing lizards secretly ruled the world, 86 00:05:18.199 --> 00:05:22.600 and of course nobody paid David like much. Heed yeah, 87 00:05:22.720 --> 00:05:26.480 everyone was paying Martha stout Heed. She's a halfward psychologist, 88 00:05:26.480 --> 00:05:30.399 And it was basically the same theory, this race of 89 00:05:30.879 --> 00:05:32.480 people that aren't quite human. 90 00:05:33.199 --> 00:05:34.439 Are secretly ruling the world. 91 00:05:34.519 --> 00:05:37.879 So these were just big questions, and I want they 92 00:05:37.879 --> 00:05:39.399 were the questions that led me to write the book. 93 00:05:39.399 --> 00:05:39.920 I think It's free. 94 00:05:39.920 --> 00:05:43.879 You said he suffers from psychopathy, but isn't He doesn't. 95 00:05:46.759 --> 00:05:51.319 Psychopathy is the most pleasant feeling of all the mental disorders. 96 00:05:51.839 --> 00:05:55.639 There's no suffering at all because the amygdala, which is 97 00:05:55.680 --> 00:06:00.519 the thing that basically provides a lot of us suffering, guilty, remorse, 98 00:06:00.519 --> 00:06:06.240 and anxiety, underperforms in people who are called psychopaths. And 99 00:06:07.319 --> 00:06:10.199 so you're absolutely right, is zero suffering. 100 00:06:10.000 --> 00:06:12.319 John, What makes someone a psychopath? And is it a 101 00:06:12.360 --> 00:06:13.600 clinical term as well? 102 00:06:13.879 --> 00:06:17.319 Right now in the DSM, the term is APD antisocial 103 00:06:17.399 --> 00:06:22.360 personality disorder. The word psychopath really belongs to a man 104 00:06:22.480 --> 00:06:29.800 named Robert Hare, who invented the checklist, the hair PCLR checklist, 105 00:06:29.800 --> 00:06:33.279 which is like the gold standard for diagnosing the condition 106 00:06:35.160 --> 00:06:38.519 and his but you know, when you look at definitions 107 00:06:38.519 --> 00:06:43.560 of sociopathy or psychopathy or APD's yeah, it's the same thing. 108 00:06:43.879 --> 00:06:50.040 So it is a clinical thing, but unfortunately it's very 109 00:06:50.079 --> 00:06:53.920 hard to spot in people. It's malevolent and it's hard 110 00:06:53.920 --> 00:06:56.560 to spot. And so Hair came up with this twenty 111 00:06:56.560 --> 00:07:01.000 point checklist of sort of nuances of behavior that if 112 00:07:01.000 --> 00:07:05.879 you're qualified in the checklist, you can learn to spot them. 113 00:07:06.199 --> 00:07:08.000 You can learn to root them out even when they're 114 00:07:08.000 --> 00:07:11.000 pretending to be normal by their linguistics, their terms of 115 00:07:11.040 --> 00:07:13.519 praise and so on, which struck me again as a 116 00:07:13.639 --> 00:07:17.639 huge thought, is not open to terrible abuse. So I 117 00:07:17.720 --> 00:07:22.519 decided to become a psychopath spotter, and indeed immediately started 118 00:07:22.519 --> 00:07:23.279 abusing my. 119 00:07:23.319 --> 00:07:28.399 Power, as one might expect you would have, you know, 120 00:07:28.480 --> 00:07:33.240 with achieving this newfound power, I was curious about when 121 00:07:33.439 --> 00:07:36.199 you know in your book, obviously, in your new book, 122 00:07:36.199 --> 00:07:40.399 you're exploring psychopaths, although in your previous books you know 123 00:07:40.959 --> 00:07:46.279 particularly them. I think you've obviously spoken with you talked 124 00:07:46.279 --> 00:07:51.720 about David a before and others as well. I'm wondering whether, 125 00:07:53.800 --> 00:07:56.199 in light of your new research in your new book, 126 00:07:56.319 --> 00:07:58.959 if there are people that you interviewed previously for your 127 00:07:58.959 --> 00:08:01.360 other books, or if your article or anything else, that 128 00:08:01.399 --> 00:08:04.800 you are now either more or less concerned about having 129 00:08:04.879 --> 00:08:08.560 more having more experience and insight into psychopaths, or you know, 130 00:08:08.680 --> 00:08:10.680 maybe people who you said, well, actually they seem to 131 00:08:10.680 --> 00:08:12.959 be fine, or really, oh my god, I'm surprised you 132 00:08:12.959 --> 00:08:14.639 didn't rip my eyes outneath them. 133 00:08:15.279 --> 00:08:15.480 Right. 134 00:08:15.560 --> 00:08:20.160 Well, I certainly have one or two suspects in mind 135 00:08:20.199 --> 00:08:23.160 from previous books, as there's one person I can think 136 00:08:23.199 --> 00:08:26.560 of in the Minister at Coats. Everybody else in the 137 00:08:26.560 --> 00:08:29.439 Minister at Coats, I think no way they in any 138 00:08:29.439 --> 00:08:34.559 way psychopathic in them, you know what, It sounds sort 139 00:08:34.559 --> 00:08:38.279 of funny because them is populated with your white separatists 140 00:08:38.279 --> 00:08:43.080 and white supremacists and hardcore conspiracy fists and Alex Jones 141 00:08:43.200 --> 00:08:47.159 and and in them, I can't really think of anyone 142 00:08:47.879 --> 00:08:54.960 who would strike me obviously as a psychopath. We can 143 00:08:55.000 --> 00:08:58.480 talk about that some more if you like. I can't 144 00:08:58.519 --> 00:09:00.320 think of because there's somebody who I interviewed one time, 145 00:09:00.320 --> 00:09:03.960 and I don't want to name him because he would 146 00:09:04.120 --> 00:09:09.000 probably sue me, and he's such a bastard, he'd probably 147 00:09:09.039 --> 00:09:13.519 pursue me to the ends of the earth. Well yeah, 148 00:09:13.600 --> 00:09:17.639 and so consequently would just take enormous pleasure from doing it, 149 00:09:18.039 --> 00:09:19.559 So I won't name him. But I can certainly think 150 00:09:19.600 --> 00:09:24.080 of one person who I've encountered over the years who 151 00:09:24.679 --> 00:09:29.759 there's no question in my mind is psychopathic. And there's 152 00:09:29.799 --> 00:09:31.840 another person I've just thought I feel I would suspect. 153 00:09:31.840 --> 00:09:34.799 But I feel bad about sort of just labeling like 154 00:09:35.000 --> 00:09:37.639 like some kind of you know, gun for hire, like 155 00:09:37.879 --> 00:09:41.919 just labeling people with such a huge with such a 156 00:09:42.000 --> 00:09:45.159 huge rose. I mean, for a while, I sort of wondered, No, 157 00:09:45.279 --> 00:09:47.840 I can't say. I mean, I'd love to say, I 158 00:09:47.919 --> 00:09:51.559 just feel like I can't. Well, this is what I 159 00:09:51.600 --> 00:09:55.080 will say that, and some people might disagree with what 160 00:09:55.120 --> 00:09:57.399 I'm about to say. But if you're an ideologue, if 161 00:09:57.399 --> 00:10:02.480 you believe in something bigger than yourself, doesn't that mean 162 00:10:03.039 --> 00:10:07.200 that you're not psychopathic? Because if psychopathy is a very 163 00:10:07.320 --> 00:10:10.679 very selfish thing, it's all about it's all about boosting 164 00:10:10.679 --> 00:10:13.519 yourself in society at the. 165 00:10:13.080 --> 00:10:14.159 Cost of everybody else. 166 00:10:14.399 --> 00:10:16.759 So if you if you're a genuine ideologue, if you're 167 00:10:16.759 --> 00:10:22.279 Oma Bakri Muhammad or David Iiic or you know, people 168 00:10:22.440 --> 00:10:25.480 who seem to really really believe what they what they say, 169 00:10:26.200 --> 00:10:28.200 that sort of negates the idea. 170 00:10:27.919 --> 00:10:28.960 That they're psychopathic. 171 00:10:29.159 --> 00:10:31.559 I think, as I say, some people might disagree with that, 172 00:10:31.600 --> 00:10:33.559 but that feels logical to me. 173 00:10:34.320 --> 00:10:37.000 A delusional instead or something else not. 174 00:10:36.960 --> 00:10:40.279 Even oh yes, yes, yes, yes, yes absolutely, But David Aika, 175 00:10:40.360 --> 00:10:44.799 it's very hard to work him out, very hard. 176 00:10:45.320 --> 00:10:47.320 Well, it seems like it would be tricky though, to 177 00:10:47.399 --> 00:10:51.440 distinguish between someone who's a true ideologue and someone who's 178 00:10:51.559 --> 00:10:57.000 using that sort of ideology to fulfill their own personal 179 00:10:57.039 --> 00:11:00.720 power goals like certain religious leaders come to mind where 180 00:11:01.000 --> 00:11:04.200 it turns out that you know, they're actually quite selfish 181 00:11:04.559 --> 00:11:07.399 or doing things against their religious creeds behind the scenes 182 00:11:07.720 --> 00:11:09.759 while espousing certain values. 183 00:11:10.639 --> 00:11:16.639 Most certainly that's the giveaway unctionably, Yeah, definitely, because you 184 00:11:16.639 --> 00:11:19.600 know one of the items on the checklist is cunning, manipulative, 185 00:11:20.559 --> 00:11:24.960 and another item is callous, lack of empathy, and all 186 00:11:25.000 --> 00:11:27.879 the things that would say, yeah, you would use religion 187 00:11:28.399 --> 00:11:31.720 as a way of kind of cloaking your true intentions. 188 00:11:31.840 --> 00:11:33.960 Gotcha? So can you just tell us a little bit? 189 00:11:33.960 --> 00:11:35.759 I mean, I would like people to actually read the book, 190 00:11:35.799 --> 00:11:38.200 But what is the psychopath test itself? 191 00:11:38.240 --> 00:11:39.600 What does that actually entail doing? 192 00:11:40.200 --> 00:11:43.200 So it's this twenty point checklist which I learned over 193 00:11:43.360 --> 00:11:47.840 three days in a marquet in West Wales with Robert Hare, 194 00:11:47.320 --> 00:11:51.039 who's the king of psychopath spotting. And as I say, 195 00:11:51.440 --> 00:11:58.080 unlike a lot of disorders, the diagnose isn't usually invited 196 00:11:58.120 --> 00:12:00.240 to take part in their own diagnosis because if the 197 00:12:00.399 --> 00:12:04.840 psychopath it means they will manipulate, they'll manipulate the test. 198 00:12:05.039 --> 00:12:07.879 So they're diagnosed from a farm more often than not. 199 00:12:08.600 --> 00:12:12.559 And it's basically through studying the way they respond to 200 00:12:12.559 --> 00:12:16.919 certain questions. So I'll give you one example from my book. 201 00:12:17.080 --> 00:12:20.399 I went to meet a man named Toto Constant who 202 00:12:20.440 --> 00:12:23.720 was a Haitian death squad leader. I met him in 203 00:12:23.799 --> 00:12:26.440 prison in Upstate New York where he's sting twelve to 204 00:12:26.480 --> 00:12:30.120 thirty seven years for mortgage fraud. So not only was 205 00:12:30.120 --> 00:12:31.919 he a death squad leader, he was also a mortgage 206 00:12:31.919 --> 00:12:35.039 fraud so which is item twenty on the checklist Criminal Versatility. 207 00:12:35.600 --> 00:12:38.000 So I went to see him and he kept saying 208 00:12:38.000 --> 00:12:40.720 to me, you know, I just want people to like me. 209 00:12:40.840 --> 00:12:44.879 It's really important that people like me. And after a 210 00:12:44.919 --> 00:12:48.240 while I said to him, isn't that a weakness, just 211 00:12:48.960 --> 00:12:51.600 desperately wanting someone to like you? And I said, no, 212 00:12:51.679 --> 00:12:53.919 it's not a weakness. And I'll tell you why. If 213 00:12:53.960 --> 00:12:56.480 you can get people to like you, you can manipulate 214 00:12:56.519 --> 00:12:58.519 them to do whatever you want them to do so 215 00:13:00.039 --> 00:13:03.519 straight out of the checklist, and it proves I came 216 00:13:03.559 --> 00:13:07.159 away from this with no doubt in my mind that 217 00:13:07.879 --> 00:13:11.679 the hair checklist is accurate, but I have huge doubts 218 00:13:11.679 --> 00:13:14.919 about the way that it's used in society. 219 00:13:16.360 --> 00:13:19.919 So if APD is a clinical disorder, is there some 220 00:13:20.039 --> 00:13:21.440 kind of treatment for this? 221 00:13:22.440 --> 00:13:23.279 No treatment? 222 00:13:23.440 --> 00:13:27.200 This is a kind of nihilistic story. Well, I say 223 00:13:27.240 --> 00:13:28.919 no treatment, but I'm going to caveat that in a 224 00:13:28.960 --> 00:13:33.320 secon The majority of people who work with people with 225 00:13:33.360 --> 00:13:35.759 ABD or psychopathya or whatever you want to call it, 226 00:13:36.120 --> 00:13:39.960 will say no. You know, they only they only stop 227 00:13:40.279 --> 00:13:44.559 being malevolent when they just get too old and lazy 228 00:13:44.639 --> 00:13:46.720 to get up off the sofa. So it's a kind 229 00:13:46.759 --> 00:13:51.080 of dark story. So, for instance, I was in Stockholm 230 00:13:51.159 --> 00:13:53.720 last week and I met somebody who works with psychopaths, 231 00:13:53.799 --> 00:13:59.919 and he said, re offenders who aren't psychopathic tend to 232 00:14:00.120 --> 00:14:03.519 stop around the age of fifty, but re offenders who 233 00:14:03.639 --> 00:14:07.159 are psychopathic tend to just carry on until they literally 234 00:14:07.200 --> 00:14:11.720 can't crawl out the door. Saying that, there's other people 235 00:14:12.159 --> 00:14:16.440 who will say that there's some evidence that cognitive behavioral 236 00:14:16.440 --> 00:14:21.039 therapy can work if you can convince the person that 237 00:14:21.080 --> 00:14:25.480 it's in their own best interests to change, and there 238 00:14:25.519 --> 00:14:28.519 are units that you know in Britain and America that 239 00:14:29.080 --> 00:14:29.879 try that out. 240 00:14:31.559 --> 00:14:31.879 Also. 241 00:14:31.960 --> 00:14:34.519 Since my book came out, obviously, I've had huge amounts 242 00:14:34.840 --> 00:14:40.000 of correspondence with everybody, from psychopaths, to people who believe 243 00:14:40.039 --> 00:14:43.039 that their wife or husband or boss or father is 244 00:14:43.080 --> 00:14:46.399 a psychopath, and to people who believe it almost certainly wrongly. 245 00:14:47.720 --> 00:14:50.320 And I've had a couple of emails and people who say, 246 00:14:50.360 --> 00:14:52.840 I am a psychopath. I've been diagnosed with a psychopath. 247 00:14:52.879 --> 00:14:56.480 It's no question. I'm definitely a psychopath. And I'm sick 248 00:14:56.519 --> 00:14:59.559 of it. I'm sick of just leaving a kind of 249 00:14:59.639 --> 00:15:04.200 trail of malevolence in my way, and I want to change. 250 00:15:04.399 --> 00:15:07.039 I want to use my psychopathy for good. And one 251 00:15:07.039 --> 00:15:08.240 of them said I want to use it to become 252 00:15:08.279 --> 00:15:13.360 a better church missionary, and another one said to become 253 00:15:13.360 --> 00:15:16.320 a better salesman. And you know, on both occasions, I 254 00:15:16.399 --> 00:15:19.000 believe them. 255 00:15:19.240 --> 00:15:20.879 And I'm just wondering, where do you draw the line 256 00:15:20.919 --> 00:15:24.159 between mental illness and some kind of ethical or moral 257 00:15:24.279 --> 00:15:26.480 position that they have or lack thereof. 258 00:15:26.960 --> 00:15:30.399 Yeah, well, it's not a mental illness, it's it's mental 259 00:15:30.440 --> 00:15:32.519 illness is defined pretty much when you have you know, 260 00:15:32.840 --> 00:15:36.399 loucinations or delusions or you know, things that can be 261 00:15:36.440 --> 00:15:41.440 helped with medication. And psychopathy is is probably better described 262 00:15:41.480 --> 00:15:46.440 as a as a as a moral deficiency because there's 263 00:15:46.440 --> 00:15:50.879 no empathy because that part of the brain underperforms, there's 264 00:15:50.960 --> 00:15:55.240 no real morality. Is just a sort of you know, 265 00:15:57.360 --> 00:16:03.120 feel or sort of field of dead crops where empathy 266 00:16:03.200 --> 00:16:07.960 and remorse and guilt should be. Well, yeah, it's I mean, 267 00:16:08.000 --> 00:16:10.080 this is everything I'm saying here is kind of difficult 268 00:16:10.240 --> 00:16:12.000 for me to say because it goes against all my 269 00:16:12.320 --> 00:16:17.200 liberal sensibilities, you know, because I'm raised to believe, and 270 00:16:17.279 --> 00:16:20.159 basically do believe that everyone's basically the same. You know, 271 00:16:20.200 --> 00:16:24.840 everyone's basically just like me. So yeah, empathetic and wanted 272 00:16:24.919 --> 00:16:27.120 to do good and wanted to be a good person. 273 00:16:27.200 --> 00:16:30.120 But yeah, the evidence is that, you know, there's one 274 00:16:30.159 --> 00:16:32.480 one hundred of us who actually aren't just like us, 275 00:16:32.559 --> 00:16:37.080 that they're completely different. But you can see that everything 276 00:16:37.120 --> 00:16:40.440 that I'm saying is open to like real abuse because 277 00:16:40.440 --> 00:16:42.559 if you start thinking of these people as like not 278 00:16:42.639 --> 00:16:47.080 quite human, Yeah, imagine the things you can justify yourself 279 00:16:47.080 --> 00:16:50.200 doing to them. 280 00:16:50.279 --> 00:16:50.879 Yeah, I was. 281 00:16:51.919 --> 00:16:54.679 Actually, it's interesting in a couple of places in your book, 282 00:16:54.720 --> 00:16:56.440 and also in your earlier book. Then I found what 283 00:16:56.480 --> 00:16:59.799 seemed to be some slightly surprising statements. For example, you 284 00:17:00.200 --> 00:17:03.720 that I quote, he says, I'd always believe to say 285 00:17:03.759 --> 00:17:06.680 to be a fundamentally rational thing. And I'm wondering, is 286 00:17:06.680 --> 00:17:09.160 this true or is this just a journalistic conceit? I mean, 287 00:17:09.200 --> 00:17:13.480 did you know you really, you really did believe the 288 00:17:13.559 --> 00:17:15.160 society was fundamentally rational. 289 00:17:15.720 --> 00:17:15.920 Yeah. 290 00:17:17.400 --> 00:17:19.240 I don't mean that an insulting way. I'm just kind 291 00:17:19.240 --> 00:17:19.880 of surprised. 292 00:17:20.240 --> 00:17:24.039 Oh, yeah, you know, I mean, yeah, I guess. I mean, obviously, 293 00:17:24.079 --> 00:17:26.640 I know there's an awful lot of irrational people in 294 00:17:26.680 --> 00:17:32.400 the world, and I know that, you know, irrationality. 295 00:17:31.720 --> 00:17:33.319 Quite often drives me. 296 00:17:33.519 --> 00:17:35.880 It's a more powerful engine in my life, the rationality. 297 00:17:36.000 --> 00:17:38.319 But you know what popped into my head when you 298 00:17:38.359 --> 00:17:40.799 when you asked me, that was my father, you know, 299 00:17:40.920 --> 00:17:43.519 saying to me, I remember that nineteen seventy or not, 300 00:17:43.640 --> 00:17:48.359 in sentiated Margaret Thatcher gets in to power, I'll take 301 00:17:48.440 --> 00:17:48.880 us all. 302 00:17:48.759 --> 00:17:49.480 Out for dinner. 303 00:17:49.559 --> 00:17:53.759 You know, my father was a was a conservative small 304 00:17:53.799 --> 00:17:59.640 businessman who believed that our leaders are political leaders were 305 00:17:59.720 --> 00:18:02.759 rush and all beings, and I guess I came you know, 306 00:18:02.799 --> 00:18:05.400 I came up with a similar you know, I was 307 00:18:05.440 --> 00:18:09.359 influenced by that, and I don't believe it anymore, But 308 00:18:09.359 --> 00:18:11.240 but I did believe. 309 00:18:10.960 --> 00:18:15.000 It, and you certainly hadn't been through the the the 310 00:18:15.039 --> 00:18:18.160 experience of George W. Bush, otherwise that would be crystal 311 00:18:18.200 --> 00:18:22.839 clear that that, certainly our rational is not quite the same. 312 00:18:23.200 --> 00:18:26.599 Yeah, unquestionably, But I always kind of saw that stuff, 313 00:18:26.640 --> 00:18:29.839 you knows, as the exception that proves them rule. 314 00:18:30.160 --> 00:18:32.119 Although of course I don't live. 315 00:18:31.960 --> 00:18:35.279 In the country that's you know, how many people believe 316 00:18:35.279 --> 00:18:37.160 in God and Americans and that sort of like eighty 317 00:18:37.359 --> 00:18:41.759 percent or ninety percent or something something. Yeah, so obviously 318 00:18:41.759 --> 00:18:43.519 I don't come from a country like that, so it's 319 00:18:43.559 --> 00:18:46.319 probably easy too, fair point. 320 00:18:46.839 --> 00:18:53.200 Yeah, And next on philosophy talk, I mean, I do 321 00:18:53.319 --> 00:18:55.079 I do understand, like you know, I mean to say, 322 00:18:55.079 --> 00:18:56.839 it's a I don't want to get off on a tangent. 323 00:18:56.880 --> 00:18:59.680 But there is the whole thing about Thomas Hobbes and 324 00:18:59.720 --> 00:19:03.240 social contract and even in the most dysfunctional societies, you'd 325 00:19:03.240 --> 00:19:06.799 have to suspect that there is some rational basis for 326 00:19:06.960 --> 00:19:11.079 allowing a government to exist which protects the people. It's 327 00:19:11.160 --> 00:19:14.200 just that the flavors of protection can range from you know, 328 00:19:15.200 --> 00:19:18.920 some sort of almost anarchy to fascism, you know, so. 329 00:19:19.200 --> 00:19:24.279 Yeah, sure absolutely, and it's and yeah, I'm just the 330 00:19:24.319 --> 00:19:26.759 sort of idea that you know, people rise up the 331 00:19:26.799 --> 00:19:30.079 ladder on the basis of merit. I mean, as I say, obviously, 332 00:19:30.119 --> 00:19:33.000 now I'm in my forties and I can see the 333 00:19:33.039 --> 00:19:36.079 world much more for what it is now. But you know, 334 00:19:36.160 --> 00:19:39.519 growing up in a in a sort of suburban house 335 00:19:39.599 --> 00:19:42.559 and way, I just kind of believe that. I just 336 00:19:42.599 --> 00:19:46.000 believe that, you know, that the further you go up 337 00:19:46.000 --> 00:19:48.200 the ladder, the more rational and we were the crazy 338 00:19:48.200 --> 00:19:50.480 ones going to go out down below. And obviously that's 339 00:19:50.519 --> 00:19:53.319 clearly not true, but it's certainly what I believe. 340 00:19:53.680 --> 00:19:58.640 Let's let's get back onto psychopathy and more specifically the 341 00:19:58.720 --> 00:20:02.359 role of psychopaths and monster lore. Well, let me ask 342 00:20:02.359 --> 00:20:07.240 you this way, did did doing this research change your 343 00:20:07.240 --> 00:20:10.119 opinion on the image of psychopathy and popular culture? 344 00:20:10.839 --> 00:20:11.039 Yeah? 345 00:20:11.079 --> 00:20:13.480 Well, well, Hair said to me almost almost at the 346 00:20:13.559 --> 00:20:18.440 very beginning, you know, there there are no accurate portrayals 347 00:20:18.559 --> 00:20:22.440 of psychopaths in the movies. And then he caveatd that 348 00:20:22.519 --> 00:20:26.480 by saying that actually there is one. And what he 349 00:20:26.519 --> 00:20:28.359 told me who it was, I thought, you know, you're 350 00:20:28.400 --> 00:20:32.559 absolutely right, and it's it's the Sissy Space character in 351 00:20:32.640 --> 00:20:36.160 bad Lands Holly, you know the way that she If 352 00:20:36.160 --> 00:20:38.920 anybody listening to this hasn't seen bad Lands, you've got 353 00:20:38.920 --> 00:20:40.519 to go and see it anyway, because it's, you know, 354 00:20:40.559 --> 00:20:45.240 one of one of the greatest movies ever. But there's 355 00:20:45.519 --> 00:20:47.400 what she really displays is one of the items on 356 00:20:47.400 --> 00:20:50.480 the checklist, which is shallow affect and inability to experience 357 00:20:50.480 --> 00:20:54.039 a range of emotions, and so you ape other people's 358 00:20:54.079 --> 00:20:57.440 emotions totally constant. The Haitian Desk godly To at one 359 00:20:57.440 --> 00:21:00.880 point pretended to cry and from to me and it 360 00:21:00.960 --> 00:21:04.759 was just obviously pretending it wasn't real. And in bad 361 00:21:04.880 --> 00:21:12.039 Lands Holly, Holly's entire voiceover is like cliched statements that 362 00:21:12.119 --> 00:21:16.200 she had read in movie magazines. And so that's a 363 00:21:16.559 --> 00:21:21.359 beautifully drawn portrayal of somebody who has this condition. But yeah, certainly, 364 00:21:21.359 --> 00:21:24.119 people like Anthony Hopkins in Science of the Lambs, that's 365 00:21:24.160 --> 00:21:26.279 that's much too kind of baroque to be true. They're 366 00:21:26.279 --> 00:21:33.119 not that their charisma is superficial. That's another really interesting 367 00:21:33.200 --> 00:21:37.240 thing about them is that they're they're not massively charismatic. There, 368 00:21:37.759 --> 00:21:41.400 they're ostensibly charismatic. And the more time you spend with them, 369 00:21:41.400 --> 00:21:43.240 the more you realize that the charisma is like a 370 00:21:43.279 --> 00:21:46.400 sort of it's like a front, it's like a it's 371 00:21:46.440 --> 00:21:50.440 like a it's like a sort of film as you know, 372 00:21:51.119 --> 00:21:53.240 as opposed to being any modern skin deep. 373 00:21:54.400 --> 00:21:56.880 And is that an easy thing for us to identify 374 00:21:57.000 --> 00:21:59.000 or is there any way for lay people to be 375 00:21:59.079 --> 00:22:00.440 able to see that others? 376 00:22:01.799 --> 00:22:04.680 Yeah, but of course, you know, it's incredibly dangerous, and 377 00:22:04.720 --> 00:22:07.079 I've had so many I mean, I see my book, 378 00:22:07.119 --> 00:22:10.000 I see the psychopathest as a cautionary tale where I 379 00:22:10.039 --> 00:22:12.680 sort of take people into the world of the power 380 00:22:12.720 --> 00:22:16.319 crazed psychopath spotter and then take them out again by 381 00:22:16.480 --> 00:22:19.240 pointing out that actually it's you know, it's difficult and 382 00:22:19.319 --> 00:22:21.640 morally dangerous. You know, being a psychopath spotter can turn 383 00:22:21.720 --> 00:22:26.000 you a little bit psychopathic, so obviously it's it's a 384 00:22:26.039 --> 00:22:31.400 really dangerous hobby. Yet yeah, I think you can spot 385 00:22:31.440 --> 00:22:32.000 certain things. 386 00:22:32.039 --> 00:22:32.200 You know. 387 00:22:32.240 --> 00:22:36.039 The weird thing about human nature is that when our 388 00:22:36.079 --> 00:22:39.319 brains go wrong, they go wrong in uncannily similar ways. 389 00:22:39.720 --> 00:22:43.559 A classic example of that is OCD where you know, 390 00:22:43.599 --> 00:22:49.720 it's basically the same rituals all over the world. And 391 00:22:49.960 --> 00:22:54.039 I think psychopathy is another example of that that it's 392 00:22:54.079 --> 00:22:56.799 obviously it's the opposite. I mean literally, psychopathy is the 393 00:22:56.799 --> 00:23:00.240 opposite to OCD because OCD is an anxiety disorder and 394 00:23:00.319 --> 00:23:03.559 psychopathy is an absence of anxiety disorder, you could say. 395 00:23:04.599 --> 00:23:08.880 But but weirdly, it's kind of similar that they use 396 00:23:08.920 --> 00:23:13.079 similar terms of phrays, they behave in similar ways, and 397 00:23:13.279 --> 00:23:17.960 you can find ways to you know, you can notice 398 00:23:17.960 --> 00:23:18.839 it if you know how to. 399 00:23:20.799 --> 00:23:24.480 I'm wondering about whether psychopathy seems to be a sort 400 00:23:24.480 --> 00:23:28.200 of a long and short term thing. Obviously it can 401 00:23:28.240 --> 00:23:32.839