WEBVTT 1 00:00:05.000 --> 00:00:07.320 Welcome back to joining us now is Todd Myers. We've 2 00:00:07.320 --> 00:00:11.480 talked to Todd before. He's with a think tank policy 3 00:00:12.439 --> 00:00:16.199 institute in Washington State. He's vice president for research at 4 00:00:16.199 --> 00:00:20.559 the Washington Policy Center, and this is in Washington State. 5 00:00:20.600 --> 00:00:21.679 Thank you for joining us, sir. 6 00:00:22.640 --> 00:00:23.960 Yeah, it's always nice to show with you. 7 00:00:24.879 --> 00:00:26.960 Great to have you on. I saw your press release 8 00:00:27.160 --> 00:00:31.600 about what is happening in Washington State with CO two emissions. 9 00:00:31.920 --> 00:00:34.439 Tell us a little bit about what is happening there 10 00:00:35.520 --> 00:00:39.200 in terms of their emissions actually going up. And I 11 00:00:39.280 --> 00:00:41.799 don't think that everything is melting there in Washington yet, 12 00:00:41.880 --> 00:00:42.039 is it? 13 00:00:43.560 --> 00:00:45.920 Probably I'm stilling outside my window right now. 14 00:00:46.000 --> 00:00:49.880 So even though even though the CO two emissions went up, 15 00:00:49.880 --> 00:00:54.119 so tell us what's happening in Washington with Washington State 16 00:00:54.200 --> 00:00:58.920 with their measuring emissions, they've gone up over a ten 17 00:00:58.960 --> 00:01:01.679 year period, I guess nine year period twenty twelve to 18 00:01:01.719 --> 00:01:02.679 twenty twenty one. 19 00:01:04.159 --> 00:01:06.920 So for those not in Washington State are probably wondering, 20 00:01:06.959 --> 00:01:09.840 why do I care about Washington State CO two emissions? 21 00:01:09.879 --> 00:01:12.959 And the answer is is that Washington in the West 22 00:01:13.000 --> 00:01:16.959 Coast has seen itself as a leader on climate change. 23 00:01:17.000 --> 00:01:19.040 You know, say, oh, here are the policies that we 24 00:01:19.120 --> 00:01:22.879 need to implement to reduce the risk from CO two 25 00:01:22.920 --> 00:01:27.359 emissions and climate change. Our governor, Governor Insley, actually ran 26 00:01:27.439 --> 00:01:32.400 for president, albeit briefly, in twenty nineteen, on the platform 27 00:01:32.480 --> 00:01:35.319 of addressing climate change. And his whole argument was that 28 00:01:35.400 --> 00:01:37.640 he was going to bring the policies that we've had 29 00:01:37.640 --> 00:01:40.920 in Washington State to the federal level to fight climate change. 30 00:01:40.959 --> 00:01:43.439 And we constantly call ourselves a leader so. 31 00:01:43.560 --> 00:01:46.599 Across the country, these are the kinds of policies that 32 00:01:46.640 --> 00:01:50.239 are in Washington State that you know, many particularly on 33 00:01:50.280 --> 00:01:53.280 the left, want to implement, and what is notable is 34 00:01:53.280 --> 00:01:56.120 is that they simply have failed to achieve their goal. 35 00:01:56.480 --> 00:01:59.280 A lot of focuses on, you know, the cost of 36 00:01:59.319 --> 00:02:02.159 the CO two policies and climate change and things like that, 37 00:02:02.519 --> 00:02:05.079 but the simple fact is they don't work. And so 38 00:02:05.400 --> 00:02:09.680 Washington State this week released CO two data through twenty 39 00:02:09.759 --> 00:02:13.080 twenty one. And so when you look at twenty twelve, 40 00:02:13.159 --> 00:02:15.719 which was just before Governor Ansley took office, through twenty 41 00:02:15.759 --> 00:02:18.919 twenty one, the ninth year of his administration, CO two 42 00:02:18.919 --> 00:02:22.719 emissions actually increased five percent over that period of time, 43 00:02:22.879 --> 00:02:26.599 and that's after COVID, So you know, considering that even 44 00:02:26.759 --> 00:02:31.439 COVID couldn't cause the emissions to go down. It's pretty remarkable, wow, Durre. 45 00:02:31.439 --> 00:02:34.039 At that same time, the United States CO two emissions 46 00:02:34.120 --> 00:02:37.680 went down. And so the message for people who aren't 47 00:02:37.680 --> 00:02:41.560 in Washington State is these policies simply don't work. And 48 00:02:41.840 --> 00:02:44.240 if you care about CO two emissions, if you care 49 00:02:44.280 --> 00:02:47.520 about the risk from climate change, don't do what Washington 50 00:02:47.560 --> 00:02:51.520 State has done. Look for more innovative ways that put people, 51 00:02:51.639 --> 00:02:53.080 not politicians in charge. 52 00:02:53.280 --> 00:02:55.039 Yeah, and when we look at all this stuff in 53 00:02:55.120 --> 00:02:57.240 terms of CO two, we got the Paris Climate Accord, 54 00:02:57.319 --> 00:03:01.120 which is hanging over everybody's head. China is putting in 55 00:03:01.599 --> 00:03:06.080 two power plants coal power plants a week, and supposedly 56 00:03:06.159 --> 00:03:10.240 it's not a problem the stuff comes from China, But 57 00:03:10.560 --> 00:03:13.439 the same as CO two if it's emitted in the 58 00:03:13.520 --> 00:03:15.599 United States or in Europe or other places like that, 59 00:03:15.759 --> 00:03:17.759 or it's going to kill us all that to me, 60 00:03:17.919 --> 00:03:21.080 that is the key thing about this. And it's kind 61 00:03:21.080 --> 00:03:23.080 of interesting that even in some of the places where 62 00:03:23.120 --> 00:03:28.159 they have scrupulously tried to reduce, CO two has actually 63 00:03:28.159 --> 00:03:31.560 gone up and it hasn't been a catastrophe either, as 64 00:03:31.639 --> 00:03:33.759 it Yeah, and. 65 00:03:33.719 --> 00:03:37.000 I think that The challenge is is that the exaggeration 66 00:03:37.360 --> 00:03:42.319 and sort of dishonesty has made it so that people 67 00:03:42.639 --> 00:03:46.840 simply write off climate change as an issue. You know, 68 00:03:46.879 --> 00:03:50.240 there have been so much exaggeration about the impact, about the. 69 00:03:50.240 --> 00:03:53.400 Harm and that sort of thing that people get very 70 00:03:53.479 --> 00:03:54.120 tired of it. 71 00:03:54.360 --> 00:03:57.120 Yeah, we do know that CO two does track heat 72 00:03:57.120 --> 00:03:59.199 to some extent and there is some risk. But the 73 00:03:59.240 --> 00:04:01.960 problem is these adjuration makes people to sort of roll 74 00:04:02.039 --> 00:04:05.280 their eyes. And then when you see the policies that 75 00:04:05.960 --> 00:04:09.919 cost a lot, raise energy prices, make things more expensive 76 00:04:09.919 --> 00:04:13.599 and then don't work, the natural reaction of people is 77 00:04:13.639 --> 00:04:15.919 to say, this whole thing is a farce. This whole 78 00:04:15.960 --> 00:04:19.560 thing is about ideology, And you know, it's hard to 79 00:04:19.600 --> 00:04:22.720 disagree in a lot of cases because you know, even 80 00:04:22.759 --> 00:04:25.639 Al Gore, when he won the Nobel Prize for his 81 00:04:25.680 --> 00:04:28.480 work on climate change, said that climate change is an 82 00:04:28.480 --> 00:04:30.680 excuse to do things we should. 83 00:04:30.480 --> 00:04:31.519 Be doing anyway. 84 00:04:31.800 --> 00:04:34.199 Right, So he said, you know, it's a good way 85 00:04:34.240 --> 00:04:38.240 to implement our ideology, and that's what you see in 86 00:04:38.360 --> 00:04:42.000 Washington State. But I think that for those on the 87 00:04:42.040 --> 00:04:45.399 center right, like myself, we do need to recognize that 88 00:04:45.439 --> 00:04:49.759 there are things that we're doing to impact ecosystems to 89 00:04:49.879 --> 00:04:52.319 wildlife and things like that. And if you look, and 90 00:04:52.360 --> 00:04:54.439 what I always point out to people is look at 91 00:04:54.439 --> 00:04:57.160 a map, look at where nature is, and look at 92 00:04:57.160 --> 00:05:02.120 where conservative voters are. They are overlapped. Conservatives live surrounded 93 00:05:02.160 --> 00:05:03.959 by the environment because they love it and they want 94 00:05:04.000 --> 00:05:06.839 to be good stewards. But what the failure of Washington 95 00:05:06.839 --> 00:05:11.240 State shows is that top down political policies fail, and 96 00:05:11.360 --> 00:05:15.120 bottom up efforts to save energy, to save money too, 97 00:05:15.639 --> 00:05:18.560 are much better way to be good stewards of the planet. 98 00:05:18.680 --> 00:05:21.600 Oh yeah, absolutely. I talked to this week about you know, 99 00:05:21.639 --> 00:05:24.360 the classic case at the turn of the century, we're 100 00:05:24.399 --> 00:05:27.160 in big cities like in New York or Seattle or London. 101 00:05:27.560 --> 00:05:30.480 They had so much horse manure and horse urine that 102 00:05:30.519 --> 00:05:32.720 were accumulating in the streets, and it's like, and what 103 00:05:32.839 --> 00:05:36.720 saved that? Was it a government designed program that dictated 104 00:05:36.759 --> 00:05:39.120 solutions to people or was it a free market where 105 00:05:39.120 --> 00:05:41.240 people got to try things? And of course you're talking 106 00:05:41.240 --> 00:05:45.439 about this from the standpoint of Washington State, and you said, 107 00:05:45.480 --> 00:05:47.360 how does this affect everybody else? You know, it's the 108 00:05:47.399 --> 00:05:50.720 federalism that we have, the fact that different states can 109 00:05:50.759 --> 00:05:52.639 try different things. And the beauty of that is that 110 00:05:52.680 --> 00:05:54.759 we can see what works. But the beauty of it 111 00:05:54.879 --> 00:05:57.360 is we can see what also see what does not work, 112 00:05:57.920 --> 00:06:02.519 and I guess the state has fallen into the latter category. 113 00:06:02.600 --> 00:06:04.480 Tell us a little bit about some of these regulations. 114 00:06:04.519 --> 00:06:08.800 What have they done in Washington State, that is in 115 00:06:08.879 --> 00:06:11.040 terms of, you know, forcing people to do this or 116 00:06:11.079 --> 00:06:16.319 that that hasn't really even accomplished their metric by their 117 00:06:16.360 --> 00:06:19.160 own paradigm. What kind of regulations have you been seeing 118 00:06:19.160 --> 00:06:21.079 there in Washington State over this ten year period. 119 00:06:22.199 --> 00:06:24.560 Well, there's a few things, and I'll give you two examples. One, 120 00:06:24.600 --> 00:06:27.759 we have lots of building regulations that force buildings to 121 00:06:27.759 --> 00:06:32.160 be what are called green buildings. And in fact, years 122 00:06:32.160 --> 00:06:35.439 ago we put it, we implemented a law that required 123 00:06:35.480 --> 00:06:39.360 all school buildings to meet what are called green building standards. 124 00:06:39.720 --> 00:06:42.079 And so I started looking at these green buildings and 125 00:06:42.120 --> 00:06:44.279 these green schools to see if they were in fact 126 00:06:44.319 --> 00:06:47.600 saving money. And what I found was is that green 127 00:06:47.720 --> 00:06:52.600 schools that meet these standards actually used more energy per 128 00:06:52.639 --> 00:06:56.360 square foot than the non green schools in those same 129 00:06:56.560 --> 00:07:00.560 school districts for a variety of reasons. And you see 130 00:07:00.560 --> 00:07:04.319 this with buildings. There has been research that in Seattle, 131 00:07:05.120 --> 00:07:09.560 green buildings actually do worse than almost anywhere else. So 132 00:07:09.639 --> 00:07:12.079 one of the things was is that these very restrictive 133 00:07:12.800 --> 00:07:16.120 building standards about what you had to build Seattle. In 134 00:07:16.240 --> 00:07:19.000 King County, where Seattle is is one of the most 135 00:07:19.079 --> 00:07:21.120 expensive places to live in the United States, we have 136 00:07:21.120 --> 00:07:24.480 a housing shortage. We have very high prices, and it's 137 00:07:24.519 --> 00:07:27.399 because we've added a lot of these regulations, so called 138 00:07:27.439 --> 00:07:31.480 green regulations, that have ended up failing. Let me give 139 00:07:31.480 --> 00:07:34.680 you one more example. The number one source of CO 140 00:07:34.839 --> 00:07:38.720 two emissions in Washington State is transportation. So the governor 141 00:07:38.879 --> 00:07:40.519 and others have said, oh, well, what we need to 142 00:07:40.519 --> 00:07:44.399 do is to build a lot of electric vehicle charging stations. 143 00:07:45.639 --> 00:07:51.240 But many of those charging stations sit unused because where 144 00:07:51.279 --> 00:07:54.199 people tend to charge up is at home, and if 145 00:07:54.240 --> 00:07:56.399 they are out and they see a charging station, they 146 00:07:56.439 --> 00:07:59.800 will plug in, but they're not very useful in terms 147 00:07:59.839 --> 00:08:04.279 of actually keeping your vehicle charged. And you know, if 148 00:08:04.279 --> 00:08:05.920 you're in the store, you don't get much of a 149 00:08:06.000 --> 00:08:07.160 charge while you're there. 150 00:08:07.199 --> 00:08:08.680 So it doesn't help. 151 00:08:08.720 --> 00:08:12.839 It doesn't do much to actually help reduce CO two 152 00:08:12.879 --> 00:08:16.279 emissions or help you know, people who have electric vehicles, 153 00:08:16.399 --> 00:08:18.959 And the result is we spend millions, tens of millions 154 00:08:19.000 --> 00:08:22.439 of dollars on you know, electric vehicle charging stations that 155 00:08:22.560 --> 00:08:25.800 sit there and do nothing. That's just the waste of money. 156 00:08:26.000 --> 00:08:28.439 And so people, you know, focus on that as a 157 00:08:28.439 --> 00:08:31.399 waste of tax payer dollars, which it certainly is, but 158 00:08:31.439 --> 00:08:34.039 it's also a waste of opportunity to do good things 159 00:08:34.039 --> 00:08:36.240 for the planet. There are lots of projects that we 160 00:08:36.279 --> 00:08:39.799 actually could do to you know, make it energy more efficient. 161 00:08:40.159 --> 00:08:42.559 We're fighting you know, I used to work with salmon recovery. 162 00:08:42.600 --> 00:08:44.960 We have very low populations of salmon. There's things we 163 00:08:45.000 --> 00:08:47.720 can do there. So if you waste money on useless 164 00:08:47.759 --> 00:08:51.440 ev charging stations rather than doing projects that help salmon, 165 00:08:52.200 --> 00:08:56.000 you are harming the environment by misallocating resources in addition 166 00:08:56.039 --> 00:08:57.120 to wasting tax. 167 00:08:56.919 --> 00:08:59.000 Paranal And of course, what we're seeing with all this 168 00:08:59.000 --> 00:09:01.000 stuff is that they will kind up with one solution 169 00:09:01.399 --> 00:09:05.799 like an electric battery car, right, and they will you 170 00:09:05.799 --> 00:09:10.600 know not, and they will subsidize that heavily. They will 171 00:09:10.639 --> 00:09:13.120 shut down any other competition. And even if it is 172 00:09:13.159 --> 00:09:16.320 something like another form of an electric car, let's say, 173 00:09:16.639 --> 00:09:19.039 a fuel cell car or a hydrogen car, even if 174 00:09:19.080 --> 00:09:22.080 it's something that is could also be zero mission. No, no, no, 175 00:09:22.159 --> 00:09:24.480 we've got this one solution and you're going to do that. 176 00:09:24.480 --> 00:09:27.039 That's something that we see from the government all the time. 177 00:09:27.080 --> 00:09:29.600 But I want to step back and when we talk 178 00:09:29.639 --> 00:09:32.399 about the schools and how the ones that were green 179 00:09:32.480 --> 00:09:34.759 schools and they gave them regulations about how they wanted 180 00:09:34.759 --> 00:09:37.360 to build them and that type of thing, how what 181 00:09:37.559 --> 00:09:40.159 was it that caused what types of things were they 182 00:09:40.159 --> 00:09:43.120 having these schools do that caused them to use more 183 00:09:43.279 --> 00:09:47.080 energy than other schools that didn't follow this this green 184 00:09:47.159 --> 00:09:48.559 building regulation scheme. 185 00:09:49.639 --> 00:09:51.639 Yeah, people are always when I mentioned that, they're always 186 00:09:51.639 --> 00:09:53.919 flabbergasted that you could make a green building and make 187 00:09:53.960 --> 00:09:56.639 it actually worse than the existing buildings exactly. Several things 188 00:09:56.639 --> 00:10:00.399 that they did. One is I never understand good this, 189 00:10:00.440 --> 00:10:03.600 but they repeated it again and again, which is they said, well, 190 00:10:03.639 --> 00:10:06.200 we're going to have big windows because big windows allow 191 00:10:06.279 --> 00:10:10.279 in more light, and therefore you have you need fewer lighting. 192 00:10:09.960 --> 00:10:11.799 Fixtures than that will save electricity. 193 00:10:12.240 --> 00:10:16.799 Well, led light bulbs are extremely efficient, very low energy, 194 00:10:16.879 --> 00:10:18.679 put out a lot of light, and so there's just 195 00:10:18.720 --> 00:10:22.679 not very much energy to be saved by reducing that 196 00:10:22.799 --> 00:10:26.559 amount of light. However, windows are not very efficient. Right, 197 00:10:26.600 --> 00:10:28.720 they let a lot of heat in. They allowed a 198 00:10:28.759 --> 00:10:30.840 lot of you know cold in as well, Right when 199 00:10:30.960 --> 00:10:33.679 during the summer it's hot or in the winter it's cold, 200 00:10:33.799 --> 00:10:36.480 and so you have to constantly run the HVAC to 201 00:10:36.600 --> 00:10:40.559 keep that room the normal temperature. The other thing that 202 00:10:40.600 --> 00:10:43.080 and that more than offsets any you know, energy savings 203 00:10:43.120 --> 00:10:45.679 you get from wind. The other thing that they do 204 00:10:45.720 --> 00:10:47.879 is they say, well, we want clean air, we want 205 00:10:47.919 --> 00:10:51.399 fresh air. So what they do is they have requirements 206 00:10:51.440 --> 00:10:53.960 to have to recirculate the air to pull the old 207 00:10:53.960 --> 00:10:56.320 air out, put a new area. And what you got 208 00:10:56.320 --> 00:10:57.799 to do, You've got to heat that, You've got to 209 00:10:57.799 --> 00:11:01.200 cool that, whatever. And so they're constant running the hvacs. 210 00:11:01.240 --> 00:11:03.960 And so I talked with several facilities directors, not just 211 00:11:04.000 --> 00:11:06.600 in Washington State but across the country where these were, 212 00:11:06.919 --> 00:11:10.120 and they just said, in order to build a green school, 213 00:11:10.120 --> 00:11:12.519 we would actually have to increase the size of the 214 00:11:12.720 --> 00:11:16.279 HVAC system to meet these new requirements. 215 00:11:16.720 --> 00:11:18.519 But I want to address your point about the one 216 00:11:18.559 --> 00:11:19.399 size fits all. 217 00:11:19.960 --> 00:11:23.440 That's the fundamental problem with government programs. 218 00:11:23.000 --> 00:11:25.720 Right, should can't say the fundamental a fundamental. 219 00:11:25.159 --> 00:11:28.080 Problem, which is is that there is one size and 220 00:11:28.120 --> 00:11:30.919 if it doesn't work, then you've lost time. We need 221 00:11:30.960 --> 00:11:33.759 a diversity of efforts. So, you know, I would be 222 00:11:33.799 --> 00:11:36.200 a horrible book author if I didn't mention my book 223 00:11:36.240 --> 00:11:39.960 Time to Think Small, which focuses on exactly this issue, 224 00:11:39.960 --> 00:11:43.759 which is lots of small efforts and a diversity of 225 00:11:43.799 --> 00:11:47.679 efforts are better ways to find not only solutions that work, 226 00:11:47.679 --> 00:11:51.480 but solutions that fit people's lives. Rather than have government 227 00:11:51.559 --> 00:11:55.279 impose restrictions on people that make their lives more difficult. 228 00:11:55.919 --> 00:11:59.200 A diversity of solutions, especially with technology, allows them to 229 00:11:59.279 --> 00:12:03.159 find ways to save energy, save money, do things that 230 00:12:03.200 --> 00:12:06.720 fit their lifestyle, make their life better while also making 231 00:12:06.720 --> 00:12:09.159 a planet better. And so I think that's the real 232 00:12:09.279 --> 00:12:12.159 key is is that we need a diversity of things. 233 00:12:12.759 --> 00:12:15.240 What I'm hoping is is that, you know, during the 234 00:12:15.320 --> 00:12:18.759 upcoming Trump administration, rather than just simply saying all of 235 00:12:18.799 --> 00:12:22.559 these environmental you know, this focus is ridiculous to say 236 00:12:22.840 --> 00:12:26.559 we need a new approach, We need to diversified approach, federalism, 237 00:12:26.960 --> 00:12:31.039 local power rather than top down government power. To show 238 00:12:31.320 --> 00:12:34.799 that this way works better than the one size fits 239 00:12:34.840 --> 00:12:35.639 all government approach. 240 00:12:35.799 --> 00:12:38.720 Oh yeah, absolutely. When we're talking about federalism and the 241 00:12:38.759 --> 00:12:40.279 fact that you know, we can see what works and 242 00:12:40.279 --> 00:12:43.600 what doesn't work based on different states and everything. And unfortunately, 243 00:12:43.639 --> 00:12:48.120 there's this idea that is taken hold in America across 244 00:12:48.120 --> 00:12:50.200 a political spectrum. It doesn't seem to me the matter 245 00:12:50.240 --> 00:12:52.879 whether people on the left or the right, Republican Democrat, 246 00:12:52.919 --> 00:12:55.279 everybody thinks that a solution needs to come from Washington. 247 00:12:55.519 --> 00:12:56.919 And one of the results of that is that we 248 00:12:57.000 --> 00:12:59.120 get this one size fits all. We're going to have 249 00:12:59.200 --> 00:13:02.960 a dictated solution and that's the way this is going 250 00:13:02.960 --> 00:13:04.799 to work. And we need to be able to experiment 251 00:13:04.840 --> 00:13:08.039 to find out what works and what doesn't work. That's 252 00:13:08.080 --> 00:13:08.639 a key thing. 253 00:13:09.240 --> 00:13:09.480 You know. 254 00:13:09.919 --> 00:13:11.919 It's kind of interesting, and you address this in your 255 00:13:11.919 --> 00:13:15.120 press release. The fact that the most recent data that 256 00:13:15.159 --> 00:13:18.279 they just released is twenty twenty one. Why is that 257 00:13:19.159 --> 00:13:21.360 If this is something such a high priority for them, 258 00:13:21.559 --> 00:13:24.759 why aren't they Maybe it's because it's not working, they 259 00:13:24.799 --> 00:13:26.960 don't want people looking at it. Why are they three 260 00:13:27.039 --> 00:13:28.320 years behind and all this stuff? 261 00:13:29.320 --> 00:13:32.759 So another problem with I mean more evidence this is 262 00:13:33.000 --> 00:13:36.200 I think more evidence that simply bureaucracy is not up 263 00:13:36.279 --> 00:13:40.240 to the task, certainly of addressing environmental issues as well 264 00:13:40.279 --> 00:13:43.000 as other issues. And the fact that here we are 265 00:13:43.000 --> 00:13:45.440 in twenty twenty five, and the most recent data we 266 00:13:45.519 --> 00:13:49.399 have for Washington state two missions is twenty twenty one. Interestingly, 267 00:13:49.519 --> 00:13:52.519 that is actually in violation of state law. State law 268 00:13:52.639 --> 00:13:54.960 says that by the end of even numbered years, like 269 00:13:55.000 --> 00:13:58.559 twenty twenty four, they are to release emissions data for 270 00:13:58.639 --> 00:14:00.960 the preceding two years, which would have been twenty twenty 271 00:14:00.960 --> 00:14:04.320 two in twenty twenty three. So I pointed this out 272 00:14:04.360 --> 00:14:07.279 and said that the state is actually in violation of 273 00:14:07.320 --> 00:14:10.720 its own law and being two years behind. And the 274 00:14:10.759 --> 00:14:13.159 problem with that is that twenty twenty one data is 275 00:14:13.360 --> 00:14:15.600 useless if you are a policy maker and trying to 276 00:14:15.600 --> 00:14:18.639 figure out what works and what doesn't, because you can say, oh, 277 00:14:18.840 --> 00:14:21.000 and what they do say is, oh, yes, we didn't 278 00:14:21.039 --> 00:14:24.399 meet those targets, but the policies we adopted after that 279 00:14:24.600 --> 00:14:26.600 are working. Well. It's like, well, how do you know 280 00:14:26.720 --> 00:14:29.360 you don't have any data, You're just making it up. 281 00:14:30.399 --> 00:14:33.080 And so when I pointed this out that they were 282 00:14:33.080 --> 00:14:35.919 in violation of their law of bit, the governor's press 283 00:14:35.919 --> 00:14:38.919 secretary sent out a snarky email saying, you know what 284 00:14:39.000 --> 00:14:42.080 Todd doesn't understand is how difficult it is to gather 285 00:14:42.159 --> 00:14:47.840 this information. Well, exactly, the government doesn't have the capacity 286 00:14:48.320 --> 00:14:50.639 to get the information and to do the job in 287 00:14:50.679 --> 00:14:53.639 a way that will work. That's what they are admitting 288 00:14:53.720 --> 00:14:56.360 is it's like, look, we can't do this. The other 289 00:14:56.480 --> 00:15:00.679 irony is is that we actually have very ownerous restrictions 290 00:15:00.679 --> 00:15:06.120 in Washington State about electric vehicles. You can't basically sell 291 00:15:06.240 --> 00:15:10.279 a recreational vehicle or a semi in Washington State because 292 00:15:10.279 --> 00:15:12.759 there aren't enough electric vehicles. 293 00:15:12.799 --> 00:15:14.600 To sell because you have to sell a certain percentage 294 00:15:14.600 --> 00:15:17.200 of that. So we stopped. So the argument has been 295 00:15:17.279 --> 00:15:19.919 to the same agency who put these numbers out, look, 296 00:15:20.559 --> 00:15:21.720 we would like to comply. 297 00:15:21.960 --> 00:15:25.080 We can't. It's physically not possible to comply. And the 298 00:15:25.600 --> 00:15:29.000 response to the agency is sorry, that's the law. So 299 00:15:29.279 --> 00:15:32.039 you know, when it's other people, it's the law that 300 00:15:32.120 --> 00:15:34.679 you have to follow. When it's them, they whine about 301 00:15:34.679 --> 00:15:36.320 the fact that it's not possible for. 302 00:15:36.320 --> 00:15:38.399 Them to actually comply with the law. 303 00:15:38.440 --> 00:15:41.159 And I think that just shows you that, you know, 304 00:15:41.320 --> 00:15:46.679 how incapable bureaucracy is of addressing these serious challenges, but 305 00:15:46.879 --> 00:15:51.360 also how an image, their own image is more important 306 00:15:51.399 --> 00:15:54.759 than actually reducing CO two emissions. As much as they 307 00:15:54.759 --> 00:15:57.639 talk about it's an existential crisis. When the choice is 308 00:15:57.639 --> 00:16:00.279 between admitting failure and saying yes, we need to do 309 00:16:00.360 --> 00:16:04.279 better or making excuses. They make excuses to say their own. 310 00:16:05.039 --> 00:16:06.679 And that's something that we see all the time, you know, 311 00:16:06.720 --> 00:16:09.080 I talk about the fact that you know, when you 312 00:16:09.120 --> 00:16:13.320 look at let's say a command control economies socialism, you know, 313 00:16:13.360 --> 00:16:16.360 look at East Germany versus West Germany, or North Korea 314 00:16:16.440 --> 00:16:19.000 versus South Korea. Why is it that they don't have 315 00:16:19.039 --> 00:16:21.320 any goods in the story? So well, they don't really 316 00:16:21.399 --> 00:16:23.960 because they don't have a market system. Even if you 317 00:16:24.000 --> 00:16:26.679 had the smartest people in control, and we know that's 318 00:16:26.679 --> 00:16:29.159 not what happens, even if you had the smartest people 319 00:16:29.159 --> 00:16:32.120 in control, they don't have sufficient information to be able 320 00:16:32.120 --> 00:16:35.080 to make decisions about what is going to work the best. 321 00:16:35.279 --> 00:16:37.919 That's what a marketplace does. And so as you point out, 322 00:16:37.960 --> 00:16:42.440 they're making this confession that yeah, it's not possible for 323 00:16:42.519 --> 00:16:44.919 us to get all this information together. It's not possible 324 00:16:44.960 --> 00:16:47.080 for them to get enough information together to make an 325 00:16:47.080 --> 00:16:52.039 intelligent decision. That's that's what the whole free market is about, everybody, 326 00:16:52.039 --> 00:16:54.480 And that's what your book is about as well, you know, 327 00:16:54.519 --> 00:16:58.679 thinking getting small and pulling back instead of having central 328 00:16:58.720 --> 00:17:03.159 planning and dictates and mandates and bans that are being 329 00:17:03.240 --> 00:17:05.400 put on all kinds of things. And I imagine you 330 00:17:05.440 --> 00:17:07.160 probably have that as well. I mean we're looking at 331 00:17:08.000 --> 00:17:12.319 Biden going out the door banning hot water heaters and 332 00:17:12.359 --> 00:17:14.039 other things like that. I'm sure you guys are way 333 00:17:14.039 --> 00:17:15.559 ahead of that right at state level. 334 00:17:16.720 --> 00:17:21.200 Yes. In fact, we just in Washington State, the state 335 00:17:21.319 --> 00:17:24.640 tried to ban natural gas hookups, not just the heaters, 336 00:17:24.720 --> 00:17:26.960 not just the stoves or anything like that, but actually 337 00:17:27.079 --> 00:17:29.960 running natural gas to new homes. They tried to ban it. 338 00:17:30.240 --> 00:17:33.000 The voters overturned that in this lend this last election 339 00:17:33.160 --> 00:17:37.680 because they recognized that it was so excuse me, extreme. 340 00:17:38.400 --> 00:17:40.279 Yeah, and we're seeing that in the UK as well. 341 00:17:40.319 --> 00:17:42.599 You know, they've done the same thing there. They want 342 00:17:42.599 --> 00:17:46.400 to ban natural gas and stuff. And you know, heat 343 00:17:46.440 --> 00:17:48.839 pump in a really cold climate like you've got in 344 00:17:49.000 --> 00:17:51.720 Washington State, only they've got in the UK heat pumps 345 00:17:51.759 --> 00:17:54.680 just don't make it handle it very well during the winter, 346 00:17:55.319 --> 00:17:57.319 and so but they don't care, and they want to 347 00:17:57.559 --> 00:18:00.000 in the UK, they even want to remove the exist 348 00:18:00.160 --> 00:18:03.599 thing infrastructure. I mean, they want to rewild is one 349 00:18:03.640 --> 00:18:05.519 of the terms that they've used. They want to rewild 350 00:18:06.759 --> 00:18:08.839 the infrastructure that's been built. In other words, you know, 351 00:18:08.960 --> 00:18:13.000 just just take everything back down to nothing, that's what 352 00:18:13.039 --> 00:18:13.920 you're saying everywhere. 353 00:18:14.079 --> 00:18:16.799 Yeah, well, in fact, you mentioned heat pumps. So I 354 00:18:16.839 --> 00:18:18.799 live in the mountains and we have a heat pump. 355 00:18:19.279 --> 00:18:23.400 Well last January it was negative ten where I was. Fortunately, 356 00:18:23.880 --> 00:18:26.000 I have a propane backup, and so I have a 357 00:18:26.000 --> 00:18:28.680 propane tank that when it gets that low, that we 358 00:18:28.720 --> 00:18:31.119 can heat our house. Because the heat pump, when it 359 00:18:31.160 --> 00:18:34.839 gets you know, in the teens and certainly negative temperatures, 360 00:18:35.319 --> 00:18:38.680 it doesn't work. I also have a smart thermostatum. My 361 00:18:38.720 --> 00:18:40.680 smart thermostat would come up and say, we think that 362 00:18:40.720 --> 00:18:42.920 your heat pump is broken because it's just turning and 363 00:18:42.960 --> 00:18:45.839 not generating the heats, and I was like that, yes, 364 00:18:45.920 --> 00:18:48.440 because it's negative ten. And so that I think is 365 00:18:48.559 --> 00:18:52.319 the challenge of these one size fits all approaches. But 366 00:18:52.400 --> 00:18:54.880 you made a really good point about local control, and 367 00:18:54.920 --> 00:18:58.119 I think there's two things. One is that you need 368 00:18:58.160 --> 00:19:01.559 to have the information, and bureaucrats simply don't have the 369 00:19:01.599 --> 00:19:04.599 information necessary to make those good decisions because it's not 370 00:19:04.720 --> 00:19:07.960 in front of them, and everybody's circumstances are a little 371 00:19:07.960 --> 00:19:10.519 bit different. The second thing is is that you need 372 00:19:10.519 --> 00:19:13.799 accountability so that when something goes wrong or when it 373 00:19:13.839 --> 00:19:17.480 goes right, you get that feedback. When you fail, you say, okay, 374 00:19:17.480 --> 00:19:20.880 we got to change bueroquests don't have that feedback, they 375 00:19:20.880 --> 00:19:24.519 don't have that accountability. There's a fantastic example here at 376 00:19:24.640 --> 00:19:25.440 Washington State. 377 00:19:26.640 --> 00:19:31.119 So the Quinault tribe, which is out on the coast, had. 378 00:19:30.920 --> 00:19:34.319 Been as these beautiful forests, but the Bureau of Indian 379 00:19:34.359 --> 00:19:37.680 Affairs had been doing all of the timber harvesting on 380 00:19:37.759 --> 00:19:41.880 the land on behalf of the tribe. And what did 381 00:19:41.880 --> 00:19:45.680 they do. They cut clear cut massive areas and then 382 00:19:45.799 --> 00:19:48.519 left slash on the ground. They said, don't worry, it 383 00:19:48.559 --> 00:19:52.480 will decompose and trees will regrow between them. But what 384 00:19:52.519 --> 00:19:56.440 they didn't realize was that cedar has a chemical in 385 00:19:56.480 --> 00:20:00.680 it that slows decomposition. So what was left was these 386 00:20:00.799 --> 00:20:03.519 massive areas where there was just all of this timber 387 00:20:03.559 --> 00:20:08.279 slash and no regrowth at all for decades, literally for decades. 388 00:20:08.799 --> 00:20:11.200 So the tribe said, look, why. 389 00:20:11.000 --> 00:20:15.079 Don't we take over the forest tree on our own land, 390 00:20:15.200 --> 00:20:17.160 because they were the ones who are paying the price. 391 00:20:17.319 --> 00:20:20.440 They lived there, not the BIA, right the BIA was 392 00:20:20.440 --> 00:20:23.839 making decisions from Washington, d C. So they took it over. 393 00:20:23.880 --> 00:20:25.799 And what was the first thing they did. They forested, 394 00:20:25.839 --> 00:20:29.960 They removed the slash, and they started a harvest rotations 395 00:20:29.960 --> 00:20:34.119 that were sustainable that would bring back those forests. Now, critically, 396 00:20:35.160 --> 00:20:38.720 they harvested for revenue. They want that money because they 397 00:20:38.759 --> 00:20:41.799 recognized that it's a valuable resource, and they use it 398 00:20:41.839 --> 00:20:45.559 to fund part of the tribe's budget. So they didn't 399 00:20:45.599 --> 00:20:48.720 just leave the trees, but they were better stewards because 400 00:20:48.759 --> 00:20:52.359 they had the information about how cedar worked as opposed 401 00:20:52.400 --> 00:20:53.039