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<v Speaker 1>Welcome to Veterans Chronicles. I'm Greg Corumbas. Our guest in

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<v Speaker 1>this edition is retired US Navy Captain and naval aviator

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<v Speaker 1>Charles Plum. He is also a veteran of the Vietnam

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<v Speaker 1>War and spent nearly six years there as a prisoner

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<v Speaker 1>of war. And Captain Plum, thank you very much for

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<v Speaker 1>being with us.

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<v Speaker 2>Thank you.

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<v Speaker 1>Where were you born and raised there?

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<v Speaker 2>I was born in Gary, Indiana. During World War Two.

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<v Speaker 2>My father was about to be drafted, so he moved

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<v Speaker 2>to Kansas. So I grew up in a tiny town

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<v Speaker 2>in Kansas.

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<v Speaker 1>Why did you decide to attend the US Naval Academy

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<v Speaker 1>and pursue service in the Navy.

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<v Speaker 2>Quite honestly, it was an education. My parents were very

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<v Speaker 2>poor and they couldn't afford to see me to college.

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<v Speaker 2>So I started looking for scholarships. Did the old shotgun approach,

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<v Speaker 2>you know, to everybody I could think of, lo and behold,

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<v Speaker 2>I got an appointment to Annapolis.

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<v Speaker 1>Out of those four years, prepare you for what would

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<v Speaker 1>eventually come.

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<v Speaker 2>You know, it was really good. Of course. There was

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<v Speaker 2>a lot of discipline, a lot of military understanding, aerarchy,

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<v Speaker 2>and a lot of trust with my fellow midsimate at

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<v Speaker 2>the Naval Academy and then my fellow prisoners of war

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<v Speaker 2>was really important for my survival.

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<v Speaker 1>And then after commissioning you went to a flight school,

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<v Speaker 1>and after that you were assigned to Miramar and what

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<v Speaker 1>would eventually be known as Top Gun. Tell me a

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<v Speaker 1>little bit about that and what it felt to know

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<v Speaker 1>that you were really among the best.

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<v Speaker 2>Well, I threw the first adversary of flights for the

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<v Speaker 2>Top Gun School. It wasn't called Top Gun at the time.

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<v Speaker 2>In fact, it was just just guys having fun flying airplanes.

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<v Speaker 2>And then they decided that we were in the wrong war,

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<v Speaker 2>that we were trained for the Cold War and flying

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<v Speaker 2>high altitude super zonic interceptors. They have four Phantom a

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<v Speaker 2>mock II airplane, and suddenly we were fighting these pesky

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<v Speaker 2>little MiGs at low altitudes that could turn inside us.

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<v Speaker 2>And we didn't have the training or the airplane to

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<v Speaker 2>fight that war. And so we started to teach the

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<v Speaker 2>pilots to dogfight the bassle the World War two and

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<v Speaker 2>Korean War kinds of tactics. And so that's how the

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<v Speaker 2>Top Gun School got started. And it was great fun

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<v Speaker 2>and I did feel like, you know, I was the

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<v Speaker 2>best of the best, and I was very proud, you know,

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<v Speaker 2>to fly those airplanes and to go to war.

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<v Speaker 1>You were also telling us just before we started recording

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<v Speaker 1>about how you were assigned to two very important special

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<v Speaker 1>events right here in Washington, the inauguration of President Kennedy

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<v Speaker 1>and his funeral. What were those moments like for you?

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<v Speaker 2>Well, his inauguration was very cold. It was a very

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<v Speaker 2>cold day. And never forget that I was in the

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<v Speaker 2>drum and Bugle Corps as a matter of fact, and

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<v Speaker 2>so it was so cold that the valve on our

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<v Speaker 2>bugle froze, and so you either had the valve in

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<v Speaker 2>or the valve out. And so the commander of them

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<v Speaker 2>the bugle corps said, oh, every other guy, freeze your

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<v Speaker 2>valve in the open position and every other one in

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<v Speaker 2>the closed positions. So you sort of played every other note.

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<v Speaker 2>Came back three years later, as a matter of fact,

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<v Speaker 2>to the tragic death of John Kennedy and marched in

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<v Speaker 2>behind his cason.

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<v Speaker 1>That's, of course, November of nineteen sixty three. It would

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<v Speaker 1>be another year or so before Vietnam would ramp up

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<v Speaker 1>in a significant way. You mentioned you were flying the

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<v Speaker 1>F four. I have yet to meet a pilot who

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<v Speaker 1>didn't love the F four, I assume that was consistent

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<v Speaker 1>for you as well.

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<v Speaker 2>The F four Phantom is a great airplane. One of

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<v Speaker 2>the advantages has duplicate everything. Two engines, two hydraulic systems,

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<v Speaker 2>two pneumatic systems. Everything was duplicated in the F four,

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<v Speaker 2>so that when you started losing these things, you still

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<v Speaker 2>had one left to bring you home. And I was

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<v Speaker 2>shot up a lot of times.

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<v Speaker 1>And so when were you deployed to Vietnam on.

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<v Speaker 2>My wife's birthday, the fifth of November of nineteen sixty six.

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<v Speaker 1>And what kind of missions were you flying there?

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<v Speaker 2>We had two weeks as fighters, in two weeks as

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<v Speaker 2>attack and so we alternated with our sister squadron. So

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<v Speaker 2>for two weeks we would carry just air to air missiles,

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<v Speaker 2>you know, fighting the enemy airplanes, and the other two

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<v Speaker 2>weeks we would carry bombs in rockets to do air

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<v Speaker 2>to ground missions.

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<v Speaker 1>And on all those missions before the one we'll talk

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<v Speaker 1>about in just a moment, did you come under much

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<v Speaker 1>fire from the ground.

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<v Speaker 2>Yes, quite a bit. There was first of all a

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<v Speaker 2>lot of anti aircraft fire flak, and then small arms

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<v Speaker 2>fire rifles, and then anti aircraft artillery and then probably

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<v Speaker 2>the big one and the one that got me was

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<v Speaker 2>surface to air missiles. So at the moment, at the

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<v Speaker 2>time in sixty six and sixty seven, Hanoi was the

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<v Speaker 2>most heavily defended city in the world. They had a

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<v Speaker 2>lot of craptue to throw at us.

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<v Speaker 1>Well, let's talk about May nineteenth, nineteen sixty seven. How

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<v Speaker 1>did the day start and walk us through what happened.

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<v Speaker 2>Nineteen May nineteen sixty seven started about three in the

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<v Speaker 2>morning when I got a phone call in my cabin

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<v Speaker 2>with the operations officer, and he I was the schedules officer,

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<v Speaker 2>so I scheduled the pilots in the planes and the

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<v Speaker 2>air crews to go on these missions. So he said,

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<v Speaker 2>you know, we got this last minute call for a

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<v Speaker 2>big time mission. Come down to the radio room. We've

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<v Speaker 2>got a planet. So at o dark thirty, I showed

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<v Speaker 2>up at the radio room started planning this mission. We

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<v Speaker 2>were briefed for the targets. I was air to air

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<v Speaker 2>at that time. I was carrying just missiles, sparrows and

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<v Speaker 2>sidewinder missiles, and so we were to protect the attack fleet.

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<v Speaker 2>And so we were on both sides of the guys

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<v Speaker 2>with the bombs. So launched on the aircraft carrier Kitty Hawk,

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<v Speaker 2>rendezvous at twenty five thousand feet, plugged into an airborne tanker,

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<v Speaker 2>which is a trigger in itself, and took on five

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<v Speaker 2>pounds of jet fuel, pointed the nose that airplane towards

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<v Speaker 2>the beach and that became That became my last flight.

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<v Speaker 2>I remember though, we had three aircraft carriers and five

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<v Speaker 2>air force bases on that day, nineteenth of May. I

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<v Speaker 2>didn't know it at the time, but it was the

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<v Speaker 2>birthday of their president, Ho Chi Minh, and I think

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<v Speaker 2>that the psychological warfare guys thought we would catch them

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<v Speaker 2>in celebration of their president's birthday. They knew we were coming.

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<v Speaker 2>They were loaded and ready to go, and so there

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<v Speaker 2>was just an awful lot with In fact, there were

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<v Speaker 2>eight f four phantoms shot down that day. I was

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<v Speaker 2>one of them.

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<v Speaker 1>Take me through that moment.

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<v Speaker 2>We were just short of the target. Things were looking

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<v Speaker 2>pretty good. Saw a lot of flak in the air.

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<v Speaker 2>I didn't see any missiles. I had dodged several missiles.

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<v Speaker 2>If you can see a missile coming okay at you,

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<v Speaker 2>and you can wait for it to get into maybe

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<v Speaker 2>a quarter of a mile, you can out turn the missile.

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<v Speaker 2>These missiles were twenty feet long and maybe twelve fourteen

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<v Speaker 2>inches in diameter, so the very gangly missiles, and they

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<v Speaker 2>can't turn very fast. I could turn inside the missile,

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<v Speaker 2>but if you start your turn too soon, the missile

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<v Speaker 2>has uh a lead pursuit on it, and it will

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<v Speaker 2>lead you in your turn and knock you off in

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<v Speaker 2>the middle of your turn. So you have to wait

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<v Speaker 2>till the thing. It's like a bullfight, you know, the

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<v Speaker 2>red flag, and when the bull comes close, you know

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<v Speaker 2>you That's what we were after. So a quarter of

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<v Speaker 2>a mile, make a big jink, and that thing will

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<v Speaker 2>go by you. And I had done that six times

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<v Speaker 2>during my seventy four missions. So this time I didn't

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<v Speaker 2>see the missile. It came from behind.

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<v Speaker 3>Uh.

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<v Speaker 2>In fact, I didn't even know. I didn't even know

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<v Speaker 2>what hit me until later in the war. All I

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<v Speaker 2>knew was that my instrument panel lit up like a

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<v Speaker 2>Christmas tree. I started losing everything. Engines unwound, hydraulic pressure failed,

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<v Speaker 2>I couldn't control the airplace anymore. I was upside down.

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<v Speaker 2>My radar intercept officer in the back, you know, is

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<v Speaker 2>talking to me about what are we gonna do. The

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<v Speaker 2>only manual control on an F four Phantom is the rudder.

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<v Speaker 2>It's hydraulic assist, but you have some power manually. My

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<v Speaker 2>hydraulics were gone. I hit the rudder as hard as

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<v Speaker 2>I could, set a prayer as loud as I could,

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<v Speaker 2>shut it upright where I could eject my back seater,

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<v Speaker 2>could eject, our parachutes open, and we came floating down

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<v Speaker 2>over into my territory.

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<v Speaker 1>What happened when you touched the ground?

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<v Speaker 2>Well, first of all, before I touched the ground, they

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<v Speaker 2>were shooting at me. I thought that was unfair. You know,

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<v Speaker 2>they just knocked down this multi gazellion dollar airplane. Now

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<v Speaker 2>they're trying to kill the pilot. So and I found

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<v Speaker 2>out that when you're dodging bullets, it's tough to come

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<v Speaker 2>up with a long range plan. So I took a

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<v Speaker 2>deep breath, let about half of it out, bowed my head,

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<v Speaker 2>and set a prayer a little extra strength that day

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<v Speaker 2>from above. I knew there was gonna be some pain

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<v Speaker 2>in my future. I prayed that there might be some

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<v Speaker 2>value in the pain. I prayed for my wife because

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<v Speaker 2>I knew it would really be tough on her. We

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<v Speaker 2>were both twenty four years old. We'd been married, let's

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<v Speaker 2>see by that time two years. So it was gonna

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<v Speaker 2>be tough. As I said, I was the flight officer,

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<v Speaker 2>and so I had all the schedule in my in

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<v Speaker 2>the little book in my pocket. I had a schedule

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<v Speaker 2>in a book in my pocket. I pulled it out,

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<v Speaker 2>ripped the pages of the names of the pilots, and

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<v Speaker 2>I ate the pages from this book because I didn't

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<v Speaker 2>want the enemy to capture my book with all the

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<v Speaker 2>pilot's names.

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<v Speaker 1>Is this while you're parachuting?

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, I want parachuting death. Pulled up my two way radio.

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<v Speaker 2>I was a couple hundred miles inland. I didn't really

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<v Speaker 2>want the rescue helicopter to try to come. Plus the

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<v Speaker 2>fact that I was very close to Hanoi, the capital city.

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<v Speaker 2>There was no way they were gonna be able to

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<v Speaker 2>get in there. And what I had seen happen in

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<v Speaker 2>that war is that a guy was captured, they would

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<v Speaker 2>take his two way radio and call in for a

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<v Speaker 2>rescue and then shoot down the helicopter. It was just

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<v Speaker 2>automatic for me to know, Hey, that wasn't gonna happen.

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<v Speaker 2>So I broke the antenna off the radio. Through the

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<v Speaker 2>radio one way and the antenna the other way, and

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<v Speaker 2>it went into a rice paddy. So I was pretty

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<v Speaker 2>sure they were not gonna be able to use my

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<v Speaker 2>two way radio. And about that time I sunk about

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<v Speaker 2>waist deep in the mud of a rice patty. I

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<v Speaker 2>was just started upon by it seemed like hundreds. It

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<v Speaker 2>was probably only twenty five or thirty, but it was

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<v Speaker 2>a bunch of farmers for the most part, and they

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<v Speaker 2>had machetes and shovels and farming implements and started hacking

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<v Speaker 2>at me with their farming instruments. I had a thirty

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<v Speaker 2>eight revolver with me, but there were I had. I

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<v Speaker 2>had five shells and flare in the revolver. I decided

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<v Speaker 2>I'm going to do much good, and so I threw

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<v Speaker 2>the revolver into the rice patty and gave up, which

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<v Speaker 2>really bothered me, you know, for the nearly six years

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<v Speaker 2>I was there, because fighter pilots are not supposed to

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<v Speaker 2>give up. That's not part of the top gun playbook.

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<v Speaker 2>So I gave up, and they tripped me of everything

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<v Speaker 2>I had, totally nude, hauled me around and showed me

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<v Speaker 2>off to the village people there as they hit me

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<v Speaker 2>with sticks and rocks and that kind of thing. The

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<v Speaker 2>the army showed up with two jeeps, put my back

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<v Speaker 2>seater in one. We were both burned, but he had

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<v Speaker 2>more serious burns than I did. And we were in

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<v Speaker 2>two separate jeeps, and within thirty minutes we were in

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<v Speaker 2>downtown Hanoi at the Wallow Prison that we rename the

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<v Speaker 2>Hanoi Hilton.

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<v Speaker 1>When we return, Captain Plum takes us inside the infamous

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<v Speaker 1>Wallow Prison, known better as the Hanoi Hilton. He also

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<v Speaker 1>tells us about the brutal treatment and explains how the

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<v Speaker 1>other prisoners gave him purpose and eased his guilt. Our

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<v Speaker 1>guest has retired to US Navy Captain Charlie Plum, who

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<v Speaker 1>spent nearly six years as a prisoner of war in Vietnam.

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<v Speaker 1>I'm Greg Corumbus and this is Veterans Chronicles.

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<v Speaker 2>Sixty Seconds of Service.

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<v Speaker 3>This sixty Seconds of Service is presented by T Mobile.

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<v Speaker 3>how they support our military community. Air Force veteran Linda

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<v Speaker 3>Carpenter runs a workshop in Detroit where veterans teach other

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<v Speaker 3>veterans various skills, from woodworking to resume writing. Linda, who

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<v Speaker 3>struggled with finding work after service, realized the importance of mentorship.

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<v Speaker 3>The workshop provides veterans with both the sense of purpose

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<v Speaker 3>and practical skills to reintegrate.

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<v Speaker 2>Into civilian life.

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<v Speaker 3>The program has created strong bonds between veterans, with many

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<v Speaker 3>finding long term friendships and job opportunities through the connections

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<v Speaker 3>they make. Today's sixty seconds of Service is brought to

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<v Speaker 1>This is Veterans Chronicles. I'm Greg Corumbus. Our guest in

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<v Speaker 1>this edition is retired to US Navy Captain Charlie Plum.

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<v Speaker 1>He served as a naval aviator and is a veteran

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<v Speaker 1>of the Vietnam War, spending nearly six years as a

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<v Speaker 1>prisoner of war. We've already heard the details of him

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<v Speaker 1>being taken prisoner Up. Next, Captain Plump takes us inside

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<v Speaker 1>the brutality of the Hanoi Hilton.

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<v Speaker 2>When it got to the Hilton, I was tortured for

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<v Speaker 2>two days for military information and political propaganda. I was

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<v Speaker 2>a very junior officer or grade. I didn't know any

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<v Speaker 2>of the information they wanted. They wanted future targets, They

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<v Speaker 2>wanted information on our syop our psychological warfare, and and

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<v Speaker 2>our nuclear weapons. I didn't know any of that stuff.

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<v Speaker 2>And I started to lie to them, and they would

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<v Speaker 2>they would believe my lies. It was. It was really surprising,

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<v Speaker 2>and I found out, first of all, how ignorant they were.

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<v Speaker 2>I shouldn't say ignorant, because they have a lot of

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<v Speaker 2>natural talent, but they knew nothing about the rest of

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<v Speaker 2>the world. For instance, they knew that I was shot

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<v Speaker 2>down in n F four Phantom, and they said, what

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<v Speaker 2>base did you fly from? And I told them I

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<v Speaker 2>flew from the aircraft carrier. Kiddie, howk well. One of

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<v Speaker 2>the reasons I told them the truth was it had

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<v Speaker 2>been written on my parachute, you know, CBA sixty three

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<v Speaker 2>USS kitty ark. Now, the military had the code of conduct.

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<v Speaker 2>They tell you if your captured, give only name, rank,

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<v Speaker 2>show number, date of birth, then they write your ship

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<v Speaker 2>on your back. I didn't see much sense, but but

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<v Speaker 2>I knew they knew the answer so I said, I

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<v Speaker 2>flew from the aircraft carried cander. That's a lie, they said.

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<v Speaker 2>They slapped me around and kicked me with their boots

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<v Speaker 2>and hit me with their rifle. But tell us the truth.

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<v Speaker 2>What base did you fly from? I flew from the aircraft.

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<v Speaker 2>It's an aircraft carry out there in the Gulf of Tonkin.

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<v Speaker 2>We know you could never take taking a big jit

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<v Speaker 2>airplane like that off a boat. We know you need

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<v Speaker 2>to runway that's at least a mile long. Well, it

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<v Speaker 2>was time for another little fib. I said, well, you know,

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<v Speaker 2>we have a lot of ships out there in the

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<v Speaker 2>seventh Fleet. We just line them all up. And they

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<v Speaker 2>believe that one too. So we found that we could

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<v Speaker 2>lie to them. And even after they had found out

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<v Speaker 2>the truth that we had lied, they they were embarrassed

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<v Speaker 2>to face us with the fact that we'd pull the

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<v Speaker 2>wool over their eyes. And it was a crazy, crazy thing,

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<v Speaker 2>but that's how we answered their questions. So the torture

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<v Speaker 2>lasted for two days. It tossed me into a little

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<v Speaker 2>cell eight feet long and eight feet wide. I could

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<v Speaker 2>paced three steps one way and three steps the other.

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<v Speaker 2>And we call that the Hanoi shuffle because we were

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<v Speaker 2>all doing it, and we would walk hundreds of miles,

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<v Speaker 2>and I felt first of all very lonely, solitary confinement,

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<v Speaker 2>and then very guilty. I was ashamed of the fact

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<v Speaker 2>that I had surrendered, and ashamed of the fact that

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<v Speaker 2>I had given them more than name, rank, show number,

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<v Speaker 2>day to birth. It sounds crazy, but you know, I'm thinking,

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<v Speaker 2>I'm so ashamed of what I did that maybe maybe

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<v Speaker 2>if this war ever ends, I won't go back to

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<v Speaker 2>the country to my home. I can't face my fellow

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<v Speaker 2>fighter pilots. I can't face my family and admit to

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<v Speaker 2>them how weak I was, and that really troubled me.

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<v Speaker 2>Maybe I'll go to some foreign country and change my

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<v Speaker 2>name and live the rest of my life and never

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<v Speaker 2>have to tell anybody about about my history. I got

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<v Speaker 2>communication with Bob Schoemaker, Pow number two. He was there

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<v Speaker 2>over eight years. He pieced a little wire out his

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<v Speaker 2>cell wall and across a storeroom into my cell wall

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<v Speaker 2>with a note in the tap coat. On the note

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<v Speaker 2>to teach me that we could we could indicate any

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<v Speaker 2>of the letters the alphabet by two numbers of tugs,

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<v Speaker 2>the number of the five y five matrix, a number

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<v Speaker 2>of the line than the number of the row, and

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<v Speaker 2>so we would. We started communicating this very cumbersome, our

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<v Speaker 2>our cake code. But it worked. It became our became

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<v Speaker 2>our lifeline in a lot of ways, what we call

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<v Speaker 2>the tap code. I found out who he was, He

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<v Speaker 2>found out who I was. We exchanged rank and dative

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<v Speaker 2>rank because it was really important that we always knew

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<v Speaker 2>who was senior to whom. The military standard was absolutely

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<v Speaker 2>vital in my survival. That somebody had control, somebody was

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<v Speaker 2>in charge, somebody gave us direction and a purpose. At first,

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<v Speaker 2>I thought, I, you know, I don't want to be

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<v Speaker 2>commanded by somebody else. But by the way, that discipline

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<v Speaker 2>brought unity and our survival. So we were on this

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<v Speaker 2>tugging on wires and communicating with each other for I

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<v Speaker 2>don't know a few weeks, and I finally decided at

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<v Speaker 2>a better fess up, and I said, Shoe, it is

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00:18:55.039 --> 00:18:58.759
<v Speaker 2>called sign was shoe. Mine was Plumber. Could have been Maverick,

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<v Speaker 2>but it was Plumber. So I said she, I've got

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<v Speaker 2>a confession to make to you, And when I tell

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00:19:08.079 --> 00:19:10.240
<v Speaker 2>you what I did, you might not want to communicate

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<v Speaker 2>with me anymore. Because if our roles were reversed, and

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<v Speaker 2>you did what I did. I wouldn't want to talk

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<v Speaker 2>to you. He said, what'd you do, Plumber? I said,

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<v Speaker 2>I broke. I tried to be strong, but I broke.

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<v Speaker 2>She maker said, Hell, everybody broke. There's not a man

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<v Speaker 2>in his prison who was as strong as he wanted

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<v Speaker 2>to be. So pull up your big boy pants. We

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<v Speaker 2>got a war to fight. That turned the whole thing around.

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<v Speaker 2>It gave me, It gave me permission to be weak.

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<v Speaker 2>And it was interesting that I found out that most

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<v Speaker 2>everybody in that camp had gone through the same guilt

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<v Speaker 2>feelings about not being as strong as everybody else had been.

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<v Speaker 1>I've heard so many people talk about the value of

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<v Speaker 1>the tap code and how the communication like you called

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<v Speaker 1>it a lifeline mentally strong teamwork, but a moment like

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<v Speaker 1>that where it absolves you of the guilt you had

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<v Speaker 1>been feeling and really changes your mindset for however long

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<v Speaker 1>you had left had to be just life changing.

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<v Speaker 2>Another interesting value of the tap code and the communication

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00:20:16.440 --> 00:20:19.880
<v Speaker 2>system it turned out to be the value was not

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<v Speaker 2>necessarily the words we were using, or top secret plans

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<v Speaker 2>for escape or any of that. The value of tap

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<v Speaker 2>code and communication and a system is the simple validation

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<v Speaker 2>of another human being, because in those prison cells, if

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<v Speaker 2>you were alone in solitary confinement and it was dark,

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<v Speaker 2>especially if it was dark and you were in solitary,

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<v Speaker 2>you'd lose track. You wouldn't know what was a real memory,

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<v Speaker 2>what was a hallucination. Sometimes you wondered if you were

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<v Speaker 2>alive or dead. There was nothing to validate my existence.

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<v Speaker 2>The tugging on a wire or tapping on a wall,

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<v Speaker 2>and have somebody else tug back or tap back meant

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<v Speaker 2>two things. Number One, somebody's responding something that I'm doing physically.

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<v Speaker 2>Thus I exist, I'm real, I'm alive. Number Two, somebody cares.

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<v Speaker 2>And so it was that part of the communication that

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<v Speaker 2>really validated my existence and made me whole. So it

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<v Speaker 2>was absolutely vital.

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<v Speaker 1>You had hundreds of prisoners here at certain points, and

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<v Speaker 1>so did the captors not catch out or did they

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<v Speaker 1>just not do anything about the tap code?

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<v Speaker 2>It depended on the camp that you were in. Of course,

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<v Speaker 2>communication was restricted. In fact, guys were torture because they

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<v Speaker 2>were communicating with each other, and so they were really

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<v Speaker 2>serious about us not communicating with each other. But they

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<v Speaker 2>knew that knew that we were communicating. One of the

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<v Speaker 2>things our senior leaders came up with with what they

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<v Speaker 2>called the Plums. Had nothing to do with Charlie Plumber.

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<v Speaker 2>It was just, I don't know why the code name

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<v Speaker 2>was the Plums. And these were levels of resistance and

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<v Speaker 2>it went from refusing to bow to the enemy all

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<v Speaker 2>the way up to a prison riot. And so the

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<v Speaker 2>senior officers could command resistance level number three and we

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<v Speaker 2>would go into that level. Sounds silly, especially the first

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<v Speaker 2>level refusing to bow. That was one of the things

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<v Speaker 2>we had to do. We had to do a very low,

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00:22:21.359 --> 00:22:25.039
<v Speaker 2>ceremonious bow. Anytime a guard came to our door and

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<v Speaker 2>opened the flap and peeked in on us, we'd have

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<v Speaker 2>to go bow to the guard, or anytime, you know,

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00:22:30.559 --> 00:22:36.359
<v Speaker 2>we would see any of the enemy, we had to bow. Subservience. Okay,

398
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<v Speaker 2>that was the camp commander, you know, our leader, Jim

399
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<v Speaker 2>Stockdale or Jeremiah Dinton or John McCain or whoever was

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<v Speaker 2>in charge, would call for resistance level number one, and

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<v Speaker 2>everybody in the heartire, maybe two hundred guys stopped bowing

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<v Speaker 2>at the same moment, and it really scared them to

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<v Speaker 2>death to know that we had that kind of communication

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<v Speaker 2>and that kind of discipline that all of a sudden

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<v Speaker 2>nobody would bow, and so the resistance we never got

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<v Speaker 2>to the prison riot. Lucky for me, because a lot

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<v Speaker 2>of guys would have gotten killed. I'm sure had we

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<v Speaker 2>start to riot, But we sure showed them that we

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<v Speaker 2>had unity and we had purpose, and we had our

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<v Speaker 2>discipline through our rank structure.

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<v Speaker 1>Coming up, retired Navy Captain Charlie Plum offers more detail

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<v Speaker 1>about the agony his Vietnamese captors inflicted on him through

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<v Speaker 1>an effort to create propaganda on their behalf, and he

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<v Speaker 1>also tells us what it was like to be free

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<v Speaker 1>again after nearly six years of captivity. I'm Greg Corumbus,

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<v Speaker 1>and this is Veterans Chronicles. This is Veterans Chronicles. I'm

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<v Speaker 1>Greg Corumbus. Our guest in this edition is retired US

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<v Speaker 1>Navy Captain Charlie Plum, who also spent six years as

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<v Speaker 1>a prisoner of war in Vietnam. In a moment, we'll

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<v Speaker 1>conclude our conversation with Plum explaining what freedom means to him.

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<v Speaker 1>But first he shares the horrors of more torture at

422
00:24:05.839 --> 00:24:09.400
<v Speaker 1>the hand of the Vietnamese as they demanded Americans create

423
00:24:09.480 --> 00:24:11.960
<v Speaker 1>propaganda against their own cause.

424
00:24:12.720 --> 00:24:17.160
<v Speaker 2>As it turned out, they felt that what they could

425
00:24:17.160 --> 00:24:21.079
<v Speaker 2>get from the prisons of war was propaganda, and that

426
00:24:21.119 --> 00:24:25.960
<v Speaker 2>became really a mainstay of hoa Chi men's dealing with

427
00:24:26.079 --> 00:24:30.240
<v Speaker 2>us and our dealing with them. And that's sort of

428
00:24:30.240 --> 00:24:32.680
<v Speaker 2>bad news good news, because guys were tortured to say

429
00:24:32.680 --> 00:24:35.480
<v Speaker 2>that the treatment was good. It was just that crazy.

430
00:24:36.319 --> 00:24:40.279
<v Speaker 2>But the good news was it gave us a purpose,

431
00:24:40.359 --> 00:24:45.119
<v Speaker 2>a reason, a way to not only defend ourselves, but

432
00:24:45.240 --> 00:24:47.519
<v Speaker 2>to take action against the enemy. We could be on

433
00:24:47.559 --> 00:24:52.960
<v Speaker 2>the offense by refusing to allow their propaganda and so

434
00:24:54.160 --> 00:25:01.000
<v Speaker 2>and so. You know, obviously it was difficult to refuse

435
00:25:01.079 --> 00:25:02.960
<v Speaker 2>because you're going to be tortured to do something, and

436
00:25:03.039 --> 00:25:06.200
<v Speaker 2>you're you're probably gonna do it. But then we found

437
00:25:06.200 --> 00:25:10.039
<v Speaker 2>out that if you could endure the torture until you

438
00:25:10.160 --> 00:25:13.680
<v Speaker 2>thought it was close to permanent physical damage, uh, and

439
00:25:13.720 --> 00:25:17.279
<v Speaker 2>then started to ease up and do little things and

440
00:25:17.400 --> 00:25:21.240
<v Speaker 2>lie a lot, Like if we would make a tape

441
00:25:21.519 --> 00:25:25.000
<v Speaker 2>or Jeremiah didn't was the excellent example. Uh. And he's gone.

442
00:25:25.000 --> 00:25:27.839
<v Speaker 2>I wish you could interview him, because he's the guy

443
00:25:28.359 --> 00:25:32.720
<v Speaker 2>that was tortured to see a delegation and in the

444
00:25:32.759 --> 00:25:39.319
<v Speaker 2>delegation he blinked out with his eyes tea, oh, our

445
00:25:40.079 --> 00:25:43.640
<v Speaker 2>torture as he blinked out, and they didn't catch this

446
00:25:44.160 --> 00:25:47.200
<v Speaker 2>and so uh and so the world suddenly knew that

447
00:25:47.240 --> 00:25:50.039
<v Speaker 2>we were being tortured. And so he's turned out to

448
00:25:50.039 --> 00:25:55.119
<v Speaker 2>be great victories of our POW unit was to be

449
00:25:55.160 --> 00:25:59.279
<v Speaker 2>able to play these things. And uh and and if

450
00:25:59.279 --> 00:26:02.880
<v Speaker 2>you wrote a can fashion, you know, little buzzwords you

451
00:26:02.880 --> 00:26:06.119
<v Speaker 2>would use that the Vietnamese would not know, and yet

452
00:26:06.319 --> 00:26:10.559
<v Speaker 2>our intelligence here would would understand. So the torture for

453
00:26:10.799 --> 00:26:17.039
<v Speaker 2>political reasons became another fight. You know, that we could

454
00:26:17.079 --> 00:26:19.480
<v Speaker 2>fight and that we could win, and we did. They

455
00:26:19.480 --> 00:26:22.000
<v Speaker 2>gave it, and you know, the morale was really great

456
00:26:22.119 --> 00:26:25.279
<v Speaker 2>when we could play something like that and get by

457
00:26:25.359 --> 00:26:25.640
<v Speaker 2>with it.

458
00:26:26.200 --> 00:26:28.559
<v Speaker 1>What kind of things did they do to torture you?

459
00:26:28.599 --> 00:26:31.359
<v Speaker 1>And do you still suffer injuries from that today?

460
00:26:31.680 --> 00:26:33.720
<v Speaker 2>The main torture was what we call the rope trick.

461
00:26:34.519 --> 00:26:38.799
<v Speaker 2>It was manacles around your wrist behind your back, and

462
00:26:38.839 --> 00:26:42.759
<v Speaker 2>then they wrapped your elbows actually together behind your back. Okay,

463
00:26:42.839 --> 00:26:46.880
<v Speaker 2>that hurts a lot, but you're not over yet. Shackles

464
00:26:46.960 --> 00:26:49.799
<v Speaker 2>on your ankles and a bar to the shackles, and

465
00:26:49.839 --> 00:26:52.279
<v Speaker 2>then they ran a rope from the shackles of your

466
00:26:52.279 --> 00:26:54.680
<v Speaker 2>ankles up over your back and down to your wrist.

467
00:26:55.079 --> 00:26:58.160
<v Speaker 2>Then they tightened up the rope. The result is your

468
00:26:58.160 --> 00:27:02.000
<v Speaker 2>feet are right up in your face. Your wrists, remember

469
00:27:02.039 --> 00:27:05.240
<v Speaker 2>your shoulder, your elbows are actually tied together, and your

470
00:27:05.279 --> 00:27:10.279
<v Speaker 2>wrists are coming back over your head. Your shoulders by

471
00:27:10.319 --> 00:27:12.319
<v Speaker 2>this time are out of joint. You know, they're out

472
00:27:12.359 --> 00:27:15.519
<v Speaker 2>of the socket. And I remember at one point looking

473
00:27:15.640 --> 00:27:20.640
<v Speaker 2>up and seeing my wrists backwards above my head, wrapped

474
00:27:20.720 --> 00:27:23.720
<v Speaker 2>up like a human pretzel. And and it hurts a lot.

475
00:27:23.920 --> 00:27:26.680
<v Speaker 2>And if that's not enough, then they'll take that rope

476
00:27:26.799 --> 00:27:30.440
<v Speaker 2>and tie it to another rope and throw it across

477
00:27:30.519 --> 00:27:33.640
<v Speaker 2>a hook in the ceiling and and haul you up

478
00:27:33.799 --> 00:27:38.079
<v Speaker 2>off the floor in this position, so I don't have

479
00:27:38.200 --> 00:27:40.640
<v Speaker 2>the after effects that a lot of guys do. Fortunately,

480
00:27:40.680 --> 00:27:43.960
<v Speaker 2>I've got a few little scars here and there, and

481
00:27:44.000 --> 00:27:48.079
<v Speaker 2>my and my shoulders of course were out of joint,

482
00:27:48.240 --> 00:27:50.960
<v Speaker 2>and so I've got it's a little bit difficult. You know,

483
00:27:51.000 --> 00:27:53.880
<v Speaker 2>when you saw John McCain couldn't comb his own hair.

484
00:27:54.200 --> 00:27:57.599
<v Speaker 2>I can comb my own hair, but my shoulders are

485
00:27:57.640 --> 00:27:58.920
<v Speaker 2>still at.

486
00:27:58.880 --> 00:28:03.400
<v Speaker 1>Painful men, your faith on the parachute down from being

487
00:28:03.440 --> 00:28:07.319
<v Speaker 1>shot down, your faith played a major role also, and

488
00:28:07.559 --> 00:28:10.559
<v Speaker 1>you being able to sustain this imprisonment for so many years,

489
00:28:10.599 --> 00:28:12.759
<v Speaker 1>and you were even serving as a chaplain for a

490
00:28:12.799 --> 00:28:14.960
<v Speaker 1>couple of those years. So talk about the role your

491
00:28:14.960 --> 00:28:17.200
<v Speaker 1>faith played and how you were able to serve as

492
00:28:17.200 --> 00:28:19.640
<v Speaker 1>a chaplain given the restrictions you had.

493
00:28:20.319 --> 00:28:25.200
<v Speaker 2>Faith played a major role. I was a man of

494
00:28:25.200 --> 00:28:28.480
<v Speaker 2>faith when I'm shot down, but it was always kind

495
00:28:28.480 --> 00:28:31.640
<v Speaker 2>of an eperial, kind of a deesisory work. And I

496
00:28:31.640 --> 00:28:34.559
<v Speaker 2>think I proved to myself in the prison situation that

497
00:28:34.640 --> 00:28:42.119
<v Speaker 2>faith does work. My mother was Mother Teresa, absolutely wonderful lady.

498
00:28:43.440 --> 00:28:46.880
<v Speaker 2>All the years I knew my mother, I never heard

499
00:28:46.920 --> 00:28:51.920
<v Speaker 2>her complain about anybody or She taught me a lot

500
00:28:51.960 --> 00:28:55.680
<v Speaker 2>about forgiveness. In the prison camp, I learned that forgiveness

501
00:28:55.720 --> 00:28:59.559
<v Speaker 2>is not just a good Christian principle, it's a survival technique.

502
00:29:00.160 --> 00:29:02.880
<v Speaker 2>You know. We passed around Bible versus and patriotic quotes

503
00:29:02.880 --> 00:29:05.720
<v Speaker 2>and poetry and all this stuff. One of the quotes

504
00:29:05.759 --> 00:29:08.880
<v Speaker 2>that really meant a lot to me was this acid

505
00:29:08.960 --> 00:29:12.440
<v Speaker 2>does more harm in the vessel it stored, then on

506
00:29:12.480 --> 00:29:15.920
<v Speaker 2>the subject it's poured. What that meant to me was

507
00:29:16.279 --> 00:29:20.240
<v Speaker 2>all this hate and vitriol within me is gonna hurt

508
00:29:20.240 --> 00:29:23.599
<v Speaker 2>me more than it's gonna hurt the person I'm mad at,

509
00:29:24.359 --> 00:29:27.240
<v Speaker 2>and I better get over this. I better forgive the

510
00:29:27.319 --> 00:29:31.400
<v Speaker 2>guards for torturing me. I better forgive the camp commander

511
00:29:31.839 --> 00:29:34.759
<v Speaker 2>for making this happen. I better forgive the mechanic put

512
00:29:34.799 --> 00:29:38.559
<v Speaker 2>my airplane. I better forgive myself for being so weak,

513
00:29:39.079 --> 00:29:41.799
<v Speaker 2>And so forgiveness was a vital part I think of

514
00:29:41.839 --> 00:29:44.960
<v Speaker 2>my survival. At one point, when we got together in

515
00:29:45.000 --> 00:29:49.359
<v Speaker 2>bigger rooms after the Sane raid, they were very afraid

516
00:29:49.400 --> 00:29:52.200
<v Speaker 2>put us all back into Hannoi, and I found myself

517
00:29:52.240 --> 00:29:54.599
<v Speaker 2>in a group of fifty seven guys, and I was

518
00:29:54.640 --> 00:29:58.640
<v Speaker 2>appointed by our senior guy as chaplain of that unit.

519
00:29:59.240 --> 00:30:01.759
<v Speaker 2>I'd had some experience at the Naval Academy with the

520
00:30:01.799 --> 00:30:06.720
<v Speaker 2>Officers Christian Union to serve as lay leaders aboard ships

521
00:30:06.759 --> 00:30:10.039
<v Speaker 2>where chaplains weren't available, so I knew some of the techniques,

522
00:30:10.480 --> 00:30:13.680
<v Speaker 2>and so I started polling all the other guys in

523
00:30:13.720 --> 00:30:16.240
<v Speaker 2>that cell. The Catholic boys were really good because they

524
00:30:16.279 --> 00:30:19.759
<v Speaker 2>knew a lot of Bible versus through their Catechism that

525
00:30:20.119 --> 00:30:24.920
<v Speaker 2>the Protestants didn't know. And so I collected Bible versus

526
00:30:24.920 --> 00:30:27.720
<v Speaker 2>and patriotic quotes, and at one point, we actually went

527
00:30:27.799 --> 00:30:30.920
<v Speaker 2>on a hunger strike to get a Bible. And that

528
00:30:31.039 --> 00:30:35.279
<v Speaker 2>was a very interesting experience because the senior guy was

529
00:30:35.319 --> 00:30:39.119
<v Speaker 2>a very devout Christian, the second guy was a Jew.

530
00:30:39.440 --> 00:30:44.079
<v Speaker 2>The third guy in command considered himself an atheist, and

531
00:30:44.119 --> 00:30:47.359
<v Speaker 2>so we stopped beating. Said give us a Bible and

532
00:30:47.359 --> 00:30:53.400
<v Speaker 2>we'll start eating. Well, they withdrew our drinking water. Now

533
00:30:53.440 --> 00:30:56.920
<v Speaker 2>you can. You can live a long time without rice

534
00:30:57.039 --> 00:31:00.759
<v Speaker 2>and sewer soup. But when they cut off your water,

535
00:31:01.079 --> 00:31:05.160
<v Speaker 2>you start to get real thirsty. Unbelievably, we found that

536
00:31:05.200 --> 00:31:07.759
<v Speaker 2>the guys in the next cell they they weren't on

537
00:31:07.799 --> 00:31:11.200
<v Speaker 2>a hunger strike. We passed a tar paper tube through

538
00:31:11.240 --> 00:31:14.160
<v Speaker 2>a hole and they poured half of their ration of

539
00:31:14.240 --> 00:31:16.839
<v Speaker 2>water into that tube, and we dropped the other side.

540
00:31:16.839 --> 00:31:20.279
<v Speaker 2>We're gonna survive. But while this was happening, they pulled

541
00:31:20.319 --> 00:31:23.720
<v Speaker 2>out our senior guy and put him in the stockade.

542
00:31:23.920 --> 00:31:26.839
<v Speaker 2>The Jew guys said, continue the hunger strike. We're gonna

543
00:31:26.839 --> 00:31:28.920
<v Speaker 2>get ourselves a Bible. They pulled him out of there.

544
00:31:29.240 --> 00:31:32.599
<v Speaker 2>The atheist guy, continue the hunger strike. You know, it

545
00:31:32.640 --> 00:31:36.519
<v Speaker 2>was that kind of military discipline we had that you know,

546
00:31:36.640 --> 00:31:40.279
<v Speaker 2>it was beyond politics, beyond religion anything else. You know

547
00:31:40.599 --> 00:31:43.000
<v Speaker 2>we were gonna we you know, we were gonna do

548
00:31:43.039 --> 00:31:45.559
<v Speaker 2>what was the right thing to do. They find about

549
00:31:45.640 --> 00:31:47.680
<v Speaker 2>us a Bible. They gave us a Bible for a

550
00:31:47.759 --> 00:31:51.440
<v Speaker 2>day and a half. It was a tattered old I

551
00:31:51.440 --> 00:31:54.160
<v Speaker 2>don't where they even got it, King James version. And

552
00:31:54.200 --> 00:31:58.240
<v Speaker 2>we copied from two sides of a page on pieces

553
00:31:58.240 --> 00:32:01.559
<v Speaker 2>of toilet paper with ink made from ashes. We copied

554
00:32:01.640 --> 00:32:06.160
<v Speaker 2>down the Nativity scene, the you know, the Matthew Mark,

555
00:32:06.240 --> 00:32:11.319
<v Speaker 2>Luke John. We we copied down the Book of Job.

556
00:32:12.000 --> 00:32:15.079
<v Speaker 2>We felt like that we didn't have as bad as

557
00:32:15.160 --> 00:32:17.759
<v Speaker 2>Job did, but gave us confidence, you know, to know

558
00:32:17.799 --> 00:32:20.920
<v Speaker 2>that somebody had made it through this, and of course

559
00:32:20.960 --> 00:32:23.920
<v Speaker 2>the Easter, and so we copied those things down. They

560
00:32:23.920 --> 00:32:27.160
<v Speaker 2>took the Bible away then, and we tried to hide

561
00:32:27.200 --> 00:32:30.119
<v Speaker 2>our copies. They eventually found the copies and tore those up.

562
00:32:30.160 --> 00:32:32.640
<v Speaker 2>So but it was it was a great morale boost

563
00:32:32.720 --> 00:32:35.119
<v Speaker 2>just to have the Bible in that prison camp for

564
00:32:35.160 --> 00:32:35.480
<v Speaker 2>a day.

565
00:32:36.359 --> 00:32:38.559
<v Speaker 1>Wellly got a couple of minutes left, sir, But tell

566
00:32:38.599 --> 00:32:41.240
<v Speaker 1>me about how you learned you would be free and

567
00:32:41.359 --> 00:32:43.079
<v Speaker 1>what it was like to be free.

568
00:32:43.440 --> 00:32:46.000
<v Speaker 2>Wondered for years how we would find out, how would

569
00:32:46.039 --> 00:32:49.640
<v Speaker 2>we react? They came in, put a piece of toilet

570
00:32:49.680 --> 00:32:52.319
<v Speaker 2>paper on the floor and said, put your foot on this.

571
00:32:52.480 --> 00:32:56.039
<v Speaker 2>They traced around our foot. We're going to get some shoes.

572
00:32:56.400 --> 00:32:58.960
<v Speaker 2>Hadn't seen a pair of shoes in nearly six years.

573
00:32:59.000 --> 00:33:03.039
<v Speaker 2>Get some shoes. Sing. THEYD brought us shoes, announced that

574
00:33:03.079 --> 00:33:06.119
<v Speaker 2>the war was over. With trading prisoners, we got on

575
00:33:06.160 --> 00:33:08.640
<v Speaker 2>a bus over the dike. We'd see the runway, the

576
00:33:08.759 --> 00:33:11.799
<v Speaker 2>Geelom's run with the enemy's runway, with the US Air

577
00:33:11.799 --> 00:33:15.359
<v Speaker 2>Force one for one ready to wing us away the freedom.

578
00:33:15.920 --> 00:33:19.599
<v Speaker 2>But it was no response. We were kind of afraid

579
00:33:19.720 --> 00:33:23.079
<v Speaker 2>to cry or cheer, hug and kiss everybody else. And

580
00:33:23.119 --> 00:33:26.799
<v Speaker 2>it wasn't really until we got aboard that airplane lifted

581
00:33:26.799 --> 00:33:29.559
<v Speaker 2>off enemy. So it wasn't really until we were airborne

582
00:33:29.640 --> 00:33:32.400
<v Speaker 2>and over the water that we all started hugging and

583
00:33:32.440 --> 00:33:35.640
<v Speaker 2>kissing the Air Force nurses, so we knew we were

584
00:33:35.640 --> 00:33:36.079
<v Speaker 2>going home.

585
00:33:36.440 --> 00:33:38.759
<v Speaker 1>What was it like to talk to your fellow prisoners

586
00:33:38.759 --> 00:33:40.839
<v Speaker 1>after not being able to actually talk to them for

587
00:33:40.880 --> 00:33:41.319
<v Speaker 1>so long?

588
00:33:41.359 --> 00:33:43.799
<v Speaker 2>It was really neat because you know, we with a

589
00:33:43.839 --> 00:33:46.599
<v Speaker 2>communications system. I knew an awful lot about it off

590
00:33:46.599 --> 00:33:48.880
<v Speaker 2>of a lot of these guys, but had never seen them.

591
00:33:49.319 --> 00:33:53.640
<v Speaker 2>You know, I knew Bob Schumacher's growing up and every

592
00:33:53.640 --> 00:33:56.240
<v Speaker 2>book he'd ever read, and every movie he'd ever seen,

593
00:33:56.240 --> 00:33:58.519
<v Speaker 2>every girl he'd ever dated. I knew his cat was

594
00:33:58.599 --> 00:34:03.039
<v Speaker 2>named Matilda, so and so, and I didn't know who.

595
00:34:03.240 --> 00:34:05.200
<v Speaker 2>I didn't know what he looked like. When I finally

596
00:34:05.839 --> 00:34:08.239
<v Speaker 2>saw him and he introduced him, Say, Bob Schumaker, I'm

597
00:34:08.280 --> 00:34:14.559
<v Speaker 2>Charlie bum How's Matilda? He said? Kia, Charlie, Kia.

598
00:34:15.280 --> 00:34:19.119
<v Speaker 1>Last question. You're among a select number of Americans who

599
00:34:19.159 --> 00:34:21.679
<v Speaker 1>knows what it's like to lose freedom and then get

600
00:34:21.679 --> 00:34:24.400
<v Speaker 1>it back. For those who will probably never know what

601
00:34:24.440 --> 00:34:26.760
<v Speaker 1>it's like to lose it, what do you tell them

602
00:34:26.760 --> 00:34:29.039
<v Speaker 1>about how to value the freedom that we have.

603
00:34:29.360 --> 00:34:33.840
<v Speaker 2>There is great value in getting your freedom taken away

604
00:34:33.840 --> 00:34:35.920
<v Speaker 2>for a while. In fact, I have four kids. I've

605
00:34:35.960 --> 00:34:38.679
<v Speaker 2>told all four of these kids, if they ever get

606
00:34:38.679 --> 00:34:42.119
<v Speaker 2>in jail, don't expect me to bail them out. I'm

607
00:34:42.119 --> 00:34:44.360
<v Speaker 2>going to let them at least a one night in

608
00:34:44.519 --> 00:34:49.440
<v Speaker 2>jail to let them know what freedom is like. It's

609
00:34:49.480 --> 00:34:54.960
<v Speaker 2>like being reborn to be free. It's very simple, simple

610
00:34:55.079 --> 00:34:57.360
<v Speaker 2>things like having a door knob on the inside of

611
00:34:57.400 --> 00:35:01.360
<v Speaker 2>your door, you know, to be able to just to

612
00:35:01.679 --> 00:35:04.639
<v Speaker 2>just to walk outside in the air, you know, just

613
00:35:04.679 --> 00:35:07.280
<v Speaker 2>to take a hot shower. You know, all these things

614
00:35:07.639 --> 00:35:11.480
<v Speaker 2>still remind me fifty years later, still remind me how

615
00:35:11.639 --> 00:35:14.920
<v Speaker 2>valuable freedom really is. And I wish I could give

616
00:35:14.960 --> 00:35:18.199
<v Speaker 2>a person a pill, you know, to experience something that

617
00:35:18.239 --> 00:35:22.360
<v Speaker 2>I have experienced and then come back to life after

618
00:35:22.400 --> 00:35:25.119
<v Speaker 2>having been We used to ask a guy, hey, when

619
00:35:25.119 --> 00:35:27.559
<v Speaker 2>did you die? That meant when we were shot down,

620
00:35:27.679 --> 00:35:30.400
<v Speaker 2>because we kind of felt that the nineteenth of May

621
00:35:30.480 --> 00:35:33.559
<v Speaker 2>nineteen sixty seven. The world kept turning, but I got off,

622
00:35:33.719 --> 00:35:36.039
<v Speaker 2>you know, I was, I was dead, you know, I was.

623
00:35:37.159 --> 00:35:41.039
<v Speaker 2>I was just not part of the culture for nearly

624
00:35:41.079 --> 00:35:43.280
<v Speaker 2>six years. And if you could give a person a

625
00:35:43.360 --> 00:35:47.760
<v Speaker 2>pill to have that feeling and realize how wonderful it

626
00:35:47.840 --> 00:35:52.199
<v Speaker 2>is to be free and and and we're free primarily

627
00:35:52.239 --> 00:35:54.679
<v Speaker 2>because of all the men and women who have fought

628
00:35:54.719 --> 00:35:59.519
<v Speaker 2>for this. Freedom didn't come easy. And so yeah, freedom is.

629
00:36:00.199 --> 00:36:01.920
<v Speaker 2>It's a wonderful thing. And I enjoyed every day.

630
00:36:02.599 --> 00:36:04.840
<v Speaker 1>Sir. It's an incredible story. I thank you for your

631
00:36:04.840 --> 00:36:07.199
<v Speaker 1>time today, and I especially thank you for your incredible

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<v Speaker 1>service and sacrifice for our nature.

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<v Speaker 2>Thanks for helping us tell our story.

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<v Speaker 1>Thank you, sir. That's retired to us Navy captain and

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<v Speaker 1>Naval aviator Charlie Plumb. He's a veteran of the Vietnam

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<v Speaker 1>War spent nearly six years as a prisoner of war.

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<v Speaker 1>I'm Greg Corumbus. This is Veterans Chronicles. Hi, this is

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<v Speaker 1>Greg Corumbus, and thanks for listening to Veterans Chronicles, a

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<v Speaker 1>presentation of the American Veterans Center. For more information, please

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<v Speaker 1>visit American Veteranscenter dot org. You can also follow the

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<v Speaker 1>American Veterans Center on Facebook and on Twitter. We're at

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<v Speaker 1>AVC update. Subscribe to the American Veterans Center YouTube channel

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<v Speaker 1>for full oral histories and special features, and of course,

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<v Speaker 1>please subscribe to the Terans' Chronicles podcast wherever you get

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<v Speaker 1>your podcasts. Thanks again for listening, and please join us

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<v Speaker 1>next time for Veterans Chronicles.