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do it there. Thank you. I want to welcome everyone
back to the Pekingana Show. Oh we have a treat here.
Two guys that you love to do the deep dives.
So let's try to keep this under three hours. John,
how you doing, Stormy?
Speaker 2: Doing well? Doing well?
Speaker 1: What's gone off? ILOs?
Speaker 3: Everything's good in the hood.
Speaker 1: Who wants to go first? We're going to talk about
at We're going to get controversial again, but and probably
piss a bunch of people off. But you know, I
think that's what this shows for. So who wants to
start this off?
Speaker 2: Fine?
Speaker 3: Well, yeah, I'll just play it straight. So the essential
information to know for the Dolls brothers is John Foster
DoLS was an American Secretary of State and Alan Dolls
was the Director of Central Intelligence from nineteen fifty three
to nineteen sixty one. That was concurrent with the time
that JF. Dullis was Secretary of State. Now, you might
assume that two men, being brothers in high positions of
power in the federal government would exercise some kind of
undue influence on the foreign policy of the United States,
and you would be correct. To go into the life
of the Dulles brothers is to understand the trajectory of
both the foreign policy of the United States from about
the forties through the late sixties early seventies, but also
to understand big changes, sweeping changes that occurred within the
internal structure of the government. So I guess on this stream,
I'll kind of be the straight man, presenting information from
primary sources. I deliberately tried to stay away from especially
very convoluted elements like Alan Dulles's appointment to the Warren Commission,
as well as the ultimate culpability upon him for the
Bay of Pigs. But other than that, I'm happy to
just kind of go through his life the source material
to keep it short and not overwhelmed the conversation. I
was very fortunate to come across a trove of primary
sources from the Deputy Chief of Staff for Logistics in
the Military Assistance and Advisory Group, and that individual was
the head of Walker Air Force Base in the nineteen sixties.
And as we go into alf Fletcher Proudy's book, The
Secret War, one thing that you'll understand is that the
CIA had an extra component, and that was its Defense Department,
not so much equivalent, but its partner and how it
conducts operations. So having a lot of these primary sources
from a side of that organization that's intimately involved in
the story is a bit of a treat. Very briefly,
I'm just going to outline the sources, so you know
what I'm referencing, and these will come up again with
the early life of Alan Dulles. I'm citing Gentleman Spy
by Peter Gross as well as The Devil's Chessboard by
David Talbot. For my more esoteric sources. I also have
The Secret Team by L. Fletcher Proudy, as well as
The Secret War by Sanche de Gramont from nineteen sixty two.
I have a nineteen seventies book, The Man Who Kept
the Secrets about the CIA. I have Donovan and the Cia,
which was the CIA's first external biography of itself, and
the OSS. And I also have the absolute classic and
privilege of a first edition, first printing copy of Carol
Quigly's Tragedy and Hope, which outlines the overall United States
foreign policy in the twentieth century. So those are my
sources for the stream and I'm happy to get into it.
Speaker 1: You want to add anything before we start, stormy.
Speaker 2: Yeah, Alan Dulles was and John Foster Dulles was national
socialist sympathizers and American heroes. And we can take it
from there.
Speaker 1: All right, that filus sure, so.
Speaker 3: In getting into the early life and biography of these men.
And to be clear, this stream is primarily going to
be focused more on Alan dolls than John Foster. But
in looking at them, we also have to consider that
most biographies that are highly critical of the Dulles brothers
and their activities are written by leftists. So the most
recent and prominent of these biographies, The Devil's Chessboard, asserts
that Alan Dolles is a pro Nazi sympathizer, which is true,
and that he didn't do enough, even though he knew
about the Holocaust, to stop German activities against Jews and
so on and so forth. And if you're very sympathetic
to that cause, then that book will be very enlightening.
But if you're on our side of things, there's a
trove of information within that book which suggests many more
unknowns than are available on other conventional sources about the
Dulles brothers. So I'm going to start with one book here,
Gentleman Spy by Peter Gross. So I guess you have
to start first off with Alan Dolles. His early life
is straightforward, wasp. He's one of five children of a
Presbyterian minister. He is part of a very blue blooded
aristocratic family. There's Wikipedia articles back I think four generations
about his family, Stormy. You might know more on that.
His maternal grandfather was Secretary of State, his uncle was
Secretary of State under Woodrow Wilson, and Dulles went to
Princeton University, so already starting out he was destined for
big things. Initially, his career began after he exited Princeton
by a brief stint in Vienna, I believe eight months,
and then transferring over to Bern in Switzerland. And Switzerland
is going to be a theme that pops up a bunch.
The time in which he goes is immediately following World
War One, and there's an issue of national displacement after
World War One in Europe. So while he's at both
Vienna and Bern, he starts interacting with people from all
over the world in his capacity, as I believe his
technical title was a Foreign Service officer. I'd have to
double check that, but going into it, his job is
to gather and collect intelligence on the surroundings. He's collecting
information upon people dignitaries that are visiting the embassy. Since
he's working for the State Department, he's primarily assisting people
with things like immigration claims, and that his function as
the serve Foreign Office was that, you know, he'd have
to occasionally help Jews, so very often there's very wealthy
and powerful Jews. This is something pointed out in the
Peter Gross biography. An interesting little anecdote that Dulls like
to tell throughout his life was that he missed meeting
Vladimir Lenin by just one day when Lenin was the
leader of the Bolsheviks. So right before Lenin left for
the Finland station, he had arranged a meeting to come
to the United States Embassy and have a meeting with Dullis.
But Dullas I believe, had some of their obligation. Dulis
loved that story, which is that you should never pass
up an opportunity to meet people. And that's a theme
that's going to happen again and again. Dulas is a
very good, ideous job. Well. He starts off as kind
of a basic secretarial role. He quickly in the State
Department rises to a position of prominence. I believe he's
the second in command at this embassy, and his dispatches
are of a significantly higher quality than his Peers. So
at this point in time in nineteen eighteen, nineteen nineteen,
Walter Littman has started reading the reports of Alan Dulls's
This is right on the collapse of the Central Powers,
and these dispatches stand out to mister Littman because the
clarity and the insight that Dulas is noticing and the
people in the circumstances around him. So Litman resolved to
keep his eye on Dulles. Many things are happening at
the conclusion of the war. On previous podcasts with Pete,
I've brought up how Edward Burnees went to the Paris
Peace Conference, and that you know a multitude of other
diplomats and people that were responsible for World War Two
ultimately as well. Bernard Baruch goes. Colonel House also goes
to Europe as well, and well Dulles. I don't think
he's actually present at the Paris Peace Conference, but the
information and the dispatches that are going from Dulles to
Litman are used by Litman to persuade Colonel House that
the collection of intelligence is an urgent priority and that
if conventional diplomats don't have much interest in pursuing it,
then there needs to be a shift and a change
in how American intelligence operates. So I just want to
very briefly elucidate the concepts of what intelligence is to
help people understand what makes Alan Dolls's role so special. So,
the way the intelligence process works is that you have
a central mission and in that mission, you have to
collect data. You have to process and exploit it. You
have to analyze and produce it. You've disseminate it and
to integrate it. And then that follows with planning and direction.
So the role of mister Dulles as he's going and
he's talking and he's meeting to people, these aren't casual acquaintances.
Dulls is setting up a network within Switzerland that he's
going to lean on in the nineteen twenties and thirties
as he goes through his career. And let's see here
I have to my sources are a little bit jumbled
here other stuff. Do you want to take over for
a minute, Stormy, repete.
Speaker 1: Glad Stormy. If you don't have anything, we can just now.
Speaker 2: I was doing the thing where you talk into your
microphone but don't realize that you're muted.
Speaker 1: Yeah, that's sure. Professional every professional podcaster does that.
Speaker 2: Thank you, I'm a professional now. I finally had my
cherry popped. I didn't like it. So my my knowledge
of Dulles Alan and really John Foster happens when it
starts when they get home from the Paris Peace Conference.
World War two is I'm sorry, world War one is
is you know, a distant memory. And they are at
the law firm Sullivan and Cromwell. So I don't know
if I low is is where you're going next, Sullivan
and Cromwell or no.
Speaker 3: That's correct, but finance isn't really my area of expertise.
I only know that he was generally pro Nazi. I
have some other specific little anecdotes from that.
Speaker 2: But did you find your source?
Speaker 3: Yes, I have.
Speaker 2: Jump in there, take over and I'll take it in
the post war years.
Speaker 1: Oh yeah, I found my source. Good job there.
Speaker 3: So he's at Sullivan and Cromwell, and at this time
he is making network connections to the Nazis. So the
Nazis sees power in nineteen thirty three, and let's fuck.
I'm sorry, I'm screwing this all up. I'm looking through
a sources. I totally tr umbled.
Speaker 2: We should just wait and make it super awkward.
Speaker 3: Yeah, okay, so here we go, Here we go, found it,
found it. So Doulas is in burn and Switzerland. And
the reason that that matters is because both in World
War Two and in the interwar years, Doulas is making
connections financially as well. So the Dulles brothers their lost
their Wall Street law firm is Sullivan and Cromwell, and
that sits at a connective node between all these different
international banks, investment firms, and industrial conglomerates. And during World
War One, the German economy is totally devastated and the
rebuilding of that falls to these banks and industrial companies,
and so there's a lot of US investment that begins
to go into German industrial giants like ig Farben, the
chemical Congramlate and Krupp Steel. There's a great book out
there called The Arms of Krupp, which to summarize like
two thousand pages of this history. This German steel company,
it's entirely centered within the Rure and they are producing
the best quality steel in the planet for hundreds of years.
So after World War One, US investment goes into crypt Steel,
which is an economic powerhouse for Germany. And because it's
in the rule, it requires French and British involvement. So
the profits that are generated by these investments then go
to France and Britain due to the Paris Peace Conference
in the Versailles Treaty, these flow back in the form
of war reparations and then also back to the United
States to pay off war loans. And so Alan Doles's brother,
John Foster Dolis he it's very, very lucrative to have
these investments within Germany. And even after Hitler takes power
in the nineteen thirties, John Foster is continuing to work
with and do business with German companies like ig Farbin,
and he's donating money to America First, which is a
isolationist party story. You've touched on it in other streams.
Charles Lindberg was kind of their avatar, and many Americans
at this time, very prominent WASP Americans had a positive
opinion of Hitler's Germany and Foster refused to shut down
the Berlin office of Sullivan and Cromwell in the nineteen thirties,
and he ordered the attorneys at this at his firm
to sign their correspondence with Kyle Hitler until his business partner,
who's also his brother, Alan Dulls, grew increasingly worried about
a public relations disaster, and then it In nineteen thirty five,
partners meeting at forty eight Wall Street, John Foster agreed
to remove the Yle Hitler from the letters and apparently
was so devastated by this that he broke down in tears,
because you know, there's a lot of severing of German
connections that have now been built up in the business
world over the last fifteen or so years since the
end of World War One, and not all of the
individuals that are working with the firm are being cut
off intrinsically. It's still prior to World War Two, so
there's not as much of a need at this point
prominent society. People are still entertaining the Nazis. You have
to remember also that for most of the nineteen thirties
the Nazis were very well received in the United States,
like the Hindenburg, I mean, up until the disaster in
nineteen thirty eight. It was this huge, positively received public
gesture to see the Hindenburg flying with a huge swastik
on its tail.
Speaker 1: Oh, let me jump in here for a second goes.
I told Thomas we were doing this, and he threw
this in there. He said that Alan Dulles met with
Hitler in nineteen thirty three, one of the few Americans
to do so, and it said that he came away impressed.
Speaker 3: That's right, and that fact he kept secret from the
successive director for the Central Intelligence Agency until he was
on his deathbed, guy called Richard Helms. So he kept
it very private after the war that he had made
and known so many different Nazi connections. And that's also
why there's a huge gap in all the primary sources
during the early Cold War, none of it. And I've
looked through all of the sources in reference for any
kind of German connection that was known during the Old
the early Cold War. The only thing that I was
able to find was in a a book detailing the
rise of the oss and wartime activities in World War Two.
There was a very brief footnote mentioning that at one
meeting Alan Dolls had to be away because he was
negotiating with German diplomats. And that document, that primary source
used in the book was part of the Truman presidential
archives and was marked as top secret with compartmentalized clearance,
and that was the one. That book itself was from
the official history of the Agency. So all of these
other publicly accessible sources are included, but the CIA went
through that book specifically with a fine tooth comb to
remove any reference to any of the German dealings. So
most of the references come from things that are way
after the early publications about the published Donovan the CIA.
That is from nineteen eighty and so after kind of
the more recent one that reveals a lot of his
German connections, that's from twenty fifteen. That's the David tal
About one about Devil's chess board.
Speaker 2: Yeah, what you want to do is check the rock
of other archives for sure. That's where you find a
lot of the German stuff because he and his brother
only had one main client that they focused on. This
is why the lefties hate him so much, because you know,
if some pissant governments of some pissant South American country
wants to get up at the eat and nationalize a
bunch of United Brood or standard oil stuff, the CIA
would take time out of their day to fuck you
in the ass and take it all back and probably
you know, do bad stuff to you. So the lefties
kind of give him all the shit because like, oh,
he was you know, you know, a servant of you know,
capitalism or whatever. He was a lifelong friend with David
and Nelson Rockefeller, and a lot of the business relationships
between Standard Oil, which there are many, and the Third
Reich bringing IBM in to the Third Reich, bringing Ford
and General Motors in. A lot of the companies that
you saw in the Third Reich got there because two
of the top lawyers at Sullivan Cromwell and their largest client,
John Rockefeller, wanted them there. So it wasn't just it
wasn't just John and Alan having these sympathies. This was
the sympathy. I mean, Pete, you remember our our episodes
and the robber Barons and like second or third when
we go through who all aligned against I mean short,
this is shortly after FDR was place and power. But
you had the entire upper crust of American society, Democrat
and Republican, trying to tear this motherfucker out of the office,
including the guy who was the president of the Democratic
Party and the previous presidential candidate, the guy that just
put him in there because of who he brought with him,
the communists, literal communist Jewish communists underneath his little wheelchair.
So it was vital for the ruling class of America
while they were still ruling to it's not more than
just kinship, like you know, like, oh, you know, this
is a similar struggle. They've did as in their interest
domestically to strengthen Germany domestically, and.
Speaker 3: I have some I have some evidence for that. Let's
see nineteen thirty seven. He says John Foster was impressed
by a man who, from quote humble beginnings has attained
the unquestioned leadership of a great nation. He also stated
in nineteen thirty nine Foster did that Germany's position is
a morally superior to that of the Allies. Alan Dollas
met face to face with Hitler in Hitler's Berlin office
in March of nineteen thirty three. He was ostensibly on
a fact finding mission to Europe for President Roosevelt, but
was particularly interested in determining what the rise of Hitler
meant for his law form's corporate interests. I disagree with
the author on that he probably already knows by this
point what the firm's interests are in Germany if he's
been doing business with them for years. He was also
impressed with Joseph Goebbels.
Speaker 2: Okay, So, Pete, remember when we talked about how a
lot of the people behind the American Liberty League, So
this would be Henry Ford and and Jack Morgan and
I Redo Pont. I Redo pont a longtime funder of
hard right politics in the United States. Right, this is
the businessman. This is like right at the time of
the businessman's plot, so to speak, right when these men,
the the and the Rockefeller brothers. Obviously these men were
also what do you mean like these men? So like Morgan,
Ford and what's his name Townshend, No, Thomas Filo, you
found the I remember after talking to you about this
gentleman Tom Lamont. There we go. Anyways, these men were
sending several fact finding missions to three of the fascist
nations at the exact same time. So I would be
disappointed if I found out that Alan Dulles was on
a state funded fact finding mission you know, in the
Third Reich, and he was not also doing the exact
same thing as in you know, uh legal capacity, even
though he was there at behest of you know, Franklin
Delano Roosevelt and the administration. He was also a the
He was also the aturneys for a lot of these
men and representatives and sorry was their representative of their
interests in Europe anyways. So to think that Alan Dulles
was not on a similar fact finding mission in relationship
to how these fascist governments came about, how they sported
a communist revolution and instead brought in something new, because
at the same exact time, Morgan and I Redo Pont
are spending six million or six or seven million dollars
the equivalent of like, uh, you know at the time
four or five billion dollars today, sending you know, groups
of people, all with varying expertise. This historians, this linguists,
not like propaganda, and like media wasn't a thing yet,
so you got like they sent writers, they wanted like messaging,
Like these guys were actively studying fascism and how to
bring it about at the exact same time as Alan
Dulls is on a fact finding mission at the Third Reich,
the lawyer that represents all of these men in their
business capacity back in the States, There's no way he
was not doing the exact same thing. I'm sure he
told Roosevelt he was fact finding some other shit.
Speaker 3: What do you know about the Bank for International Settlements?
Speaker 2: A lot?
Speaker 3: Okay, because that's that's coming up next? Is I bet
it is that one of Dullas's most important contacts was
a guy called Thomas McKittrick, who was a Wall Street
friend of his, who was the president of the Bank
for International Settlements.
Speaker 2: What was he the president before that?
Speaker 3: I'd have to look it up.
Speaker 2: If you know offhand and financial institution you'd have heard of.
I don't know if he was president of.
Speaker 3: Leigh, Higginson and Co.
Speaker 2: Yes, which would now be c in Company. So Bank
of International Settlements, my friends, is a sovereign nation. They
issued their own passports, they have diplomatic immunity, they have
diplomatic cable immunity. They are, for all intent and purpose,
diplomatically and otherwise, a sovereign entity. They're as much of
a country as Liechtenstein is, even though they're just a building.
Was it like fourteen or fifteen floors? So they get
to do you know, diplomatic stuff as in like move
people to places, move things from place to place without
them being interfered with the Bank of International Settlements, got
a lot of the Nazi leader the person I can't
prove this, but I believe my favorite, you know ss
upper crustman, haunt Ober Group and fewer Hans Kammler, the
man that was in charge of the Kammler Stott, the
fifty square miles in Poland that Los Alamos and the
Manhattan Project and later DARPA were based on. Right, the
accounts of his death are really, really, really really sketchy,
But I know a lot of other Nazi leadership below
on Over Group in fear. They got out of the
country through the BIS. This is actually where the fondness
for Argentina came from, is that BIS is. I believe
they were restructuring the Central Bank of Argentina at the
end of the war. Anyways, But between that and Dullas's
work in Italy with propaganda due to Ballpark, we're talking
about thousands of Third Reich officers and bureaucrats of various levels,
like actual party people got out of the country because
Alan Dulles paper clip was just a drop in a
bucket of what he was doing. We didn't just take scientists.
Thanks to Alan Dulles, we took hundreds of thousands of
people out of the Third Reich before the Soviets put
them in camps and shot them. So for anybody that
says that Alan Dulls isn't down for the cause, a
great risk to himself both physically in post World War
to Berlin and professionally. He made it a priority of
Sullivan and Cromwell and all of the businesses that Sullivan
and Cromwell represented that we're in there. I know it
came out that a lot of I think it was
like four or five relatively high ranking, not super duper
high rankings. Again, those people are all you know on
lists came out when IBM pulled its people out, and
I believe the same for Standard Oil. He was also
the one that set up that leaned on Rome heavily
using the BIS because the BIS was doing the banking
for the papacy, I believe at the time and through
the leverage provided or basically through the leverage that the
BIS had over Rome made the Catholic Church down for
the cause, even though they weren't super down for the cause.
But yeah, BIS is a diplomatic entity, follow not a
lot of everybody thinks it's just a bank.
Speaker 3: I can go a little bit more into their specific
operations letting into World War two. So they were Five
of its directors for BIS were later at the end
of the war charged with war crimes. That was ig
Farban and one of the one let's see here, the
secret of BIS became the crucial financial partner for the Nazis.
The vice president of the Reichsbank, Emil Pool, who was
a close associate of McKittrick, once called BIS the Reich's bank,
only the only foreign branch. It was responsible for a
lot of the Nazi gold management within Switzerland. One thing
is that BIS is located within Switzerland. That's not a
coincidence all the kind of that kind of like trite
frayme that, like all phrasing, that all the Nazi gold
is in Switzerland accumulated during the war. I would presume
that that's because of BI. Dullis is very very close
to McKittrick at the start and continuing through the war,
and both Dullis and McKittrick are not popular with either
FDR's inner circle or FDR's Treasury secretary Henry Morgan thou
And there was a time where the Roosevelt administration moved
to block bank for international settlement funds within the United States.
McKittrick hired Foster Doulas as the legal counsel, who successfully
intervened on the bank's behalf. Morgan Thou was outraged in
the winter of nineteen forty two when McKittrick made a
business trip to the United States and was warmly welcomed
by Wall Street. These are the executives of several corporations
such as General Motors and Standard Oil. They had profited
from doing business with the Nazis, and a banquet was
held for mckindrick's honor at the New York University Club
on December seventeenth. Morgan Thou then tried to prevent mckindrick
from exiting the United States to return to BIS headquarters
in Switzerland on the grounds that the bank was very
clearly aiding the Nazi war effort. Vice versa. Alan Dulles
came to mckittrick's rescue and was able to get him
on an April nineteen forty three flight to Europe. If
you know about aviation at the time, it is very
very hard to fly transatlantic during World War Two. You
need a lot of permissions to do that. Dulson McKittrick
continued to work closely for the rest of the war.
They what is this project safe Haven Morgenthou's treasury department,
which was trying to fiscate a lot of the wealth
of the Nazis. Dulson McKittrick, within OSS and BIS respectively
worked to protect Nazi commodity interests after the war, and
Dulls believed that a lot of these powerful German figures
should be returned to political power within the post war period.
One interesting thing at the end of the war, as
an anecdote, is that Alan Dulles when peace with Germany,
when kind of the overall this is like after the war,
but pre Nuremberg, Dulls is advocating for a restoration of
many Nazi officials within Germany. He doesn't want the Germans
to unconditionally and fully surrender and then be for whatever
we're criminally charged, which at Nuremberg is just bullshit. A
lot of you know, McKittrick and the Bank of International
Settlements had a lot of problems with Morgenthau was essentially
looting Germany, and my earlier stream with a forrestall On.
You know, Morgan Thou wanted Germany left destitute. It's obvious
that morgan Thou's treasury was going to seize that wealth
for Jewish interests away from major German corporations. So throughout
the war there's it seems that there's this this kind
of behind the seams financial war between BIS and other
banking interests behind the Roosevelt administration.
Speaker 2: That's interesting. I wonder if any of that gold that
they would have tried to take would have made it
to would have actually made it to the destination as
they said, or if it would get lost, because I
for a long time basically viewed it as well Morgan
Thou's attempt to trying to get at the gold just
to be another you know, looting attempt that these people
are quite famous for. Because at this point the Germans
have accumulated quite a bit of gold and quite a
bit of property. As far as rare art things like that,
the BIS was actually kind of critical and keeping a
lot of that stuff hidden. Majority of the gold never
got well, I'm assuming maybe CIA hasn't. I don't know,
but dulles is I mean so often and not just
astral I hope he listens to this. It's not just Astrail.
I have to constantly argue this point with. But I
have to argue this point with a lot, Like a
lot of accounts, there are people that refuse to believe
that this guy was anything other than a shit lib
at best and a collabor regime collaborator at worst. I mean,
is that that point is untenable. I don't know what
your thoughts are, Filo, but is there any way to
read what the documents that you've gone through and remotely
see Alan Dallas says anything other than extremely sympathetic, if
not outright supportive of the Third Reich.
Speaker 3: I don't think there's so. I mean, there's there's not
another way to look at it, especially with this, uh,
this David Talbot book. If I didn't have access to
the other sources, it would be a little trickier.
Speaker 2: But what about Rhinhart Galen, Let's talk about him.
Speaker 3: I'd have to look him up.
Speaker 2: Hold on, I got you rehin Haard Galen was the
head of Nazi intelligence.
Speaker 3: Oh I have something on him, I hear, Yeah.
Speaker 2: Just preserve Galen. He didn't keep Galen out of the news.
He kept the entire national Socialist intelligence apparatus intact, because
he said he needed a fight, because now like Patent,
like Patent had already figured out for him. Actually it's
not that you know, oh, we found out later that
we were going to be at war with the Soviets next,
or that the Soviets weren't our friends. And this was
a surprise. Almost everyone in the American establishment, the military
defense establishment, they knew this from the beginning of World
War Two. What they couldn't stop is an administration that
was sympathetic to the Communists. At no point in time
did we think that you were either a communist collaborator
inside the US government, which Roosevelt and really Stims in
his whole team very much was, or you basically knew
that these people were going to be our enemy immediately afterwards.
And by afterwards, I don't mean the end of World
War two, I mean as soon as we can get
this fucking guy FDR at office. I think there was
absolutely no illusions to that. So the entire administration hold
on one second, I.
Speaker 3: Have a source pulled up for Galen. Once Stormy's ready.
Speaker 2: Cat removal, exactly, cat removal. She doesn't get to hang
out anymore. She's lost her inside privileges. Ah. I was
told that like that, men that have cats are men
that get women, and men that don't don't. I surely
hope so, because proposition is significantly diminished. If that's not
the case, it's absolutely one hundred percent. I think.
Speaker 3: So I have a wife and a cat, but they
were a package.
Speaker 2: Deal, I'd be actually lucky.
Speaker 3: Then I wouldn't say it was luck Well, I.
Speaker 2: Would because you didn't have a cap force. You obviously
didn't understand women, So I said, I would say, luck
is is probably accurate that you know she was dumb
enough to marry you. You are a very lucky guy.
Speaker 3: I would say that. Yeah, I'd agree with that.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker 3: Richard Galen, I have little rhin Hard Galen, excuse me,
so funny little anecdote about him. He was at the
nineteen fifty one World Series with his CIA handler, and
he went there because one of his advisors was some
kind of autistic savant who'd memorized all these different baseball
statistics and you know, understanding Reinhart Galen. So during the war,
Galen had served as Hitler's intelligence chief on the eastern
front of the Well, I'm the here host ratis. They
were looking for weaknesses in the Soviet defenses, let's see here.
Most so he was in charge of extracting a lot
of the intelligence out of the Soviet prisoners of war,
and he eventually rose upward to become a major general.
The big deal with him was that at the end
of the war, when he was realizing that things were
you know, that the Germans were beat he concluded that
the US Soviet alliance that was temporary during the war
would split and that some of the Nazi hierarchy would
be able to survive by journeying forces with the West
against Moscow. That's very common. A lot of Germans very intelligent.
There's a story about a fighter pilot, a German ace
who flew into an American air base in German and
you know, as the Americans controlled parts of Germany and
a lot of high ranking people would much rather work
with the Americans and again than get killed by the Soviets.
That was the blunt alternative of it. Because he went
around to the Bavarian Mountains at the end of the war,
he was able to bury cases of microfilm containing Nazi
intelligence in the Soviet Union. He then leveraged his expertise
and connections within Eastern Europe built up during the Eastern
Front Offensive to convince US military officials that he was indispense.
So he, unlike other German captives who get temporarily interned
within the US Midwest or worse yet, sent to BS tribunals,
he got transported out on a DC three and he
was moved into comfortable quarters at Fort hunt Or, Virginia,
and there he was introduced personally to Alan Dolls, who
decided on the spot to bring mister Gellen into US
government operation. So they were then sent back to Germany
in the service of the United States, and they were
centered in Pulac, a village near Munich, and that began
to lossom into the Gellen Organization, which was then West
Germany's principal intelligence agency. In nineteen forty eight, the CIA
then takes over the supervision of the Gellen Organization from
the US Army, and it becomes very clear. You know,
Gellen promised the army officials he wouldn't hire anybody from
the SS or Gestapo, But of course, as it grows
and you need the most competent people, those are the
most competent men, so he hires all these different SS figures,
and especially as they're starting to get released from US
Army entertainment after the war in the late nineteen forties,
they're getting hired. Some people within the CIA wanted to
lick date Gellen's operation, but it was shielded by Dulles.
His backing was primarily from the Dullest faction. In nineteen
forty eight, you know, the person directly put in charge
of monitoring all of Gellen's activities at the CIA in
Munich was a direct appointee by Dolls, and that this
individual concluded that Gellen's intel organization is performing phenomenally with
two hundred top staff and their wives and children living
in this intelligence compound outside Munich, and the decor of
the main facility had a lot of you know, Nazi
adornment on the building, which if you know anything about
the denocification programs, that was like exceptionally rare. They went
throughout Germany destroying every Nazi symbol they could find, and
the Germans and Americans that were working together at this
installation in the early history of the Sea grew very close.
The Germans and Americans working together there, their families were
going on skiing trips in the Bavarian Alps, and let's
see where do I go from here? This overwriting goal.
Gallen's goal was to rebuild the Nazi power network and
return Germany to a dominant role on the European stage.
One interesting thing to know, is Thomas brings up occasionally,
is that it was made illegal to be right wing
after Nuremberg in nineteen forty five, and it was exceptionally
illegal to be a Nazi in Germany. Let's see one
of my else. Everybody, all the Americans, from what I
can tell in the CIA documentation that worked with Gellen,
had very positive opinions of him, to the point where
they facilitated him going to the nineteen fifty one World
Series because Gallen's aid liked baseball and what else was
there the nineteen fifty one trip to America was Gellen
was given the code name Utility, which I think is
very interesting. So he's very good at what he does,
and he also on October eighth, nineteen fifty one. During
this trip to the United States, Gellen also attends a
private dinner club with Germans and several CIA officers, as
well as Richard Helms, who had run the US intelligence
operations in Germany after the war and also succeeds Dulus
after his resignation in the early nineteen sixties. Let's see, Yeah,
all of so, Dulls, interestingly enough, had invited Gellen to
all of his different clubs, the Metropolitan Club, the Chevy
Chase Club, any time that the German spymaster visits Washington.
Dulas has this kind of open door policy that's not
unique to just his relationship with Gellen. He's also like
throughout his life, Dulas is very open with how he's
meeting people. What happens to this Gallon organization in nineteen
fifty five, they are Let's see, late nineteen fifty four,
Dulles gets Gellen's eldest daughter into a good US college
and then she gets admitted to Hunter College in New
York City. This is like totally unprecedented for the time
to have this tide of a relationship. In nineteen fifty five,
as the CIA prepares to transfer the Gallon Organization back
to the West German government, the agency generously gave him
enough money to buy a lakeside of State, and they
Gellen purchased allegedly, it was probably more likely a gift
of about a fifty thousand dollars estate. Gellen's code name
for Dulls was the Gentleman. Gellen wrote in his memoir,
in all the years of my collaboration with the CIA,
I had no personal disputes with Dolan. He pleased me
by his air of wisdom, born of years of experience.
He was both fatherly and boisterous, and he became a
close personal friend of mine. What other items are here?
Whenever Gellen saw the US government policy about the Soviet
Union was beginning to soften or weaken in its rhetoric,
the Gallen organization would decry it. And you know the
Soviet Union. Gellen said that the Soviet Union enticed with
this and that, but underneath its skirt one will see
the cloven hoof of the devil.
Speaker 2: What else is there?
Speaker 3: Alan Doles had a soft spot in his heart for
the good Germans. JEdgar Hoover was also present. When other
items are there? I think that's kind of all that
I have to say on Gellen. Other than he was
extremely active as a West German spymaster, and that he
was worried about kind of the softening also of Germany.
Speaker 2: And his UH intelligence reports. Because let's keep in mind
the after rose and I think again, the more and
more I think back, and I tied back different things,
like I haven't thought about Gellen in forever, but it
reminded me that the CIA, ever since Dallas, was pushed
out of the agency he created by a man by
the name of who I've been screaming about for some time,
but has now recently come back into the spotlight with
the JFK document releases. One James Jesus Engleton. If you
want to know who pushed Allen Dulles out of the CIA,
it was James Jesus Angleton shortly before JFK was murdered.
JFK did not have any JFK's beef with Dulles or
with with the CIA, had very little to do with Dulles,
had nothing to do with Vietnam or the Bay of Pigs.
Even the Bay of Pigs wasn't a failure. All of
the guns that were supposed to be going to the
Bay to the Cuban resistance fighters were actually being stolen
for Israel out of a shipping and whatsh McCall it
company import export company out of out of Virginia, and
Alan got word of it literally, I believe, I think
the night before the day before, and went to Kennedy
with it. So Kennedy knew why the Bay of Pigs
was a failure. He didn't neither of them knew in
time to stop it. But I guess it was in
charge of the Bay of Pigs, James Jesus Angleton, along
with all the other stuff that he did when the
f not to get sidetracked, like there was no daylight
really between Dulles and JFK. Except for nuclear disarmament. He
went way over the top. Really, to be honest, I
don't think a lot of us today realize how much
we probably would have disliked JFK. If he had lived,
he probably would have gone down as a as a
Jimmy Carter. But Dummer, he was so serious about nuclear disarmament.
After the Cuban missile crisis, he was having back channel
conversations with Khrushchev about both countries' nuclear disarmament, you know, intentions,
and both men agreed that the priorities of Sonion and
the priorities of America needed to be nuclear force reduction
and eventual disarmament, and Khrush Jeff obviously saying he's going
to get a lot of pushback and whatever. That's why
they had to use back channels, just the two of them,
so like not Soviet back channels and not like American
back channels, but like JFK familial relationships talking to Kruse Jeff,
familial relationships outside of their own intelligence agencies and national apparatus.
Kennedy was going to start disarming first as a show
of goodwill, like, oh yeah, well, let's get rid of
our nukes and that's how you'll know we're legit. If
you have trouble selling it to the rest of the
polyp Buro, it'll be much easier when we just get
rid of our own nukes. And Alan got wind of this,
and so did the Pentagon type people, and basically that's
where the static came from, which is also where a
lot of the static between JFK and David Ben Gurion
came from, because, you know, trying to disarm the Soviets
only to find out that nuclear armament rapid armaments happening
in Israel from all this shit that they stole from you.
So that's where the beef was. All of the stuff
that you've read about Douglas JFK, Dear Listeners is bullshit
almost in its entirety, because if you talk about nuclear,
if you talk about what the real disconnect was, you're
going to land on Israel because it's all about disarm
it's all about nuclear non proliferation. Sorry, Corey Hughes's book
is probably the best on it. I think he did
a recent podcast with Astral and the one he did
with Jake Shields is really good at least like the
last fifteen minutes. Talks exactly about what we're talking about
now and cites all the sources and his research is
really impossible to argue with. And he basically tells you
exactly what the relationship is with Dulls and JFK, and
it's not what you're told. This is also why he
went on the Warrant Commission, so like after the death
of JFK and Lyndon Johnson. So if you're Ellen Dulles,
the guy that's been openly supported the Third Break, you
and your brother openly hostile the State of Israel. You
and the now previous dead president. We're in the process
of trying to stop nuclear armed proliferation by the State
of Israel that stole the nuclear materials. Like there's like
ten guys that know what the actual story is. And
the guy with all the political power, JFK, is dead,
and a person who is an actual trader and pussy
whipped by a ergoon terrorist is in the White House,
and Jewish power has just like wiped off the face
of the earth JFK, And very little attention gets given
to outside of JFK and RFK about the I don't
know a dozen and a half two dozen other people
that were in lower positions but also had all of
the same information and the same exact idea of like, oh,
this needs to be stopped. There's probably about twenty assassinations
in the JFK assassination. So if you're John, if you're
Alan Dulles and you're in your seventies or like late sixties,
what the fuck are you gonna do? You're going to
be an old man that has an accident, which is
what I'm assuming he was told, because the day after
JFK's assassination. Alan had already been pushed out of the
CIA by a whatever I'm trying to think of the
term for it. If it was if it was geopolitical,
I'd call it a false flag, but planting of evidence
and fuckery by by Angleton, his subordinate. He basically set
up a little mini privacy CIA out of his living
room with all the guys that got pushed out by
Angleton and a bunch of guys still at the Agency
trying to figure out what the fuck had happened. And
as soon as LBJ got into that fucking White House,
somebody apparently had a conversation with Alan and he closed
up shop immediately. So it's not like it's not like
they didn't know what's happening. It's not like they didn't
try and push back. But at that point in time,
they have all the cards, Like you know, at that
point in time resistance to organize Zionism, it was impossible.
Speaker 3: Well in the building up of it as well, like
if your call from the Forest all stream, LBJ met
with Forrest all in the mental hospital along with all
the other pro Zionist elements that were in Truman's administration
at the time, and that was in nineteen forty eight,
nineteen forty nine.
Speaker 2: Oh yeah, it was open season on anybody that was
against the Zionist agenda. And they had all the political
power to basic and you had what's his fucking face
in the in the Supreme Court, like they could basically
torment you out in public and there was nothing you
could do about it. That was a real dark period
of time.
Speaker 3: There was an interesting Uh, I guess there's many There's
three different angles that could kind of go. I'm gonna
start with the Angleton one and then go into Israel
and also nuclear. I suppose ah to know about Angleton.
Speaker 2: He was that monument I told you about.
Speaker 3: Yeah, I haven't. I pulled up as you were talking
about it. Yeah, I can tell you all right. So
for those who don't know within uh So, it's located
at jo At Yemen musche So. This is a place
that is immediately adjacent to the King David Hotel, which
I think is very strange. It's in the it's located
in all these key like like a park complex very
close to Mount Zion and also next to like these
large the Menacham bacon Herotage Center, which is is interesting
but he has this little corner in this park and
to know about it. The park is located in a
spot I'm getting this off of the Jerusalem Foundation website.
The park is located in a spot angle visited and
admired in the early nineteen sixties when it bordered on
the barbed wire friends that divided the city. The project
was initiated by the then Mayor of Jerusalem, Teddy Kollik,
the Defense Minister Yitzak Labin, who later became the Prime
Minister and then was assassinated, and also the head of
the shin Bet almos Manol, and the shin Bet is
the that's like the FBI equivalent within Israel. So there's
the Massad, which is kind of the CIA equivalent, and
then the shin Bet is FBI. This little corner for
Angleton is one of four small memorial gardens. Another one
is the Rothshield Rothchild Sitting Corner. So the location there
is very is very talent. I mean it is like
it's the nearest park over to the King David, which
if you know about the history of Israel, that was
where the I think the Ilglun blew up the hotel
to kill a lot of British soldiers prior to Israel
being created.
Speaker 2: Yeah, and they're big into something called a practice called geomancy.
Speaker 3: Yeah, yep, yep. This is true personal experience on this.
Like there's there's four not getting to a cult, there's
four cities within Israel at each correspond to elements and
the mysticism there and they're.
Speaker 2: Like, yeah, demon shit.
Speaker 3: But I anyway, that the last thing I'll say about
I mean kind of the first. There's so many things
to say about this. The joke in Israel when I
was there was that there was a textile factory in
de Amona and that was code for the nuclear site.
So it's an open secret that when Israel was getting
its nuclear ar arsenal, that was set up at Demona
in Israel. And then oh okay, so that's the Israel
stuff that's engleton.
Speaker 2: I can kind of who is who is the person
that got caught but whose apprehension was deliberately thwarted by
one James Jesus Angleton. Right, So the one of the
interesting intelligence documents that came out with what I didn't
know because I knew about like all the Angleton stuff
just from like, yeah, like stories I would hear. And
what I did not know is that James Jesus Engleton
without I'm almost I can guarantee that Alan Dulas was
unaware of this. But James went to the FBI and
told the FBI that Alan wants him in charge of
everything Israel and Israeli intelligence because at this point and
that everything that the FBI collects should be brought to
him directly, not through like the other official channels, because
you know, the FBI had channels with the CIA, and
if they you know, we're working on, you know, come
across some counterintelligent stuff like, oh, FBI thinks that like
these people are a bunch of fucking spooks. Okay, we'll
go tell the guys that are our spooks, okay, like
they have official channels for that. Angleton wanted it to
not like that. He said, on orders of Alan Dulles
directly from the top, We're not to bring any of
the israel stuff and any of the stuff that you
guys find on you know, any suspected Israeli intelligence agents
operating in the US. That needs to come directly to me.
And I am going to bring it right to Alan directly,
because we think there's a mole. Well, so what was
what was James Angleton's job? He gave him the free reign.
Why why was he this person with that, you know,
out of pocket all the fucking time.
Speaker 3: It's the principal agency liaison for the Foreign Intel Services.
Speaker 2: Now, but he was also the at the time. At
the time, the CIA knew that they had a mole
and someone was giving something to the Soviet It was
somebody was giving information to the Soviets. Guess who, A
person other than Alan Dulles. But I believe a genuinely
good person, an evil person. He suggested one James Jesus
Angleton to be the person that finds the mole. Except
for James's Engleton was an an asset for Israeli intelligence, Like, well,
that's not Soviet intelligence, is it. Except it was. We
didn't have a Soviet mole. We had an Israeli mole,
and Israel the nation was our Soviet mole. Because James's Engleton,
at the end of every single day would spend two
hours talking to a florist that had a that whose
shop was on his walk home, and nobody fucking suspected it,
Like nobody bothered, Hey, a there's a florist owned by
a foreign national, and the mule hunter of the CIA
hunting is like, he stops by this same florists and
talks for two hours every day. And James doesn't have any
fucking flowers. He doesn't even have plants at his house.
Where the fuck is he talking? Nobody asked these questions.
But anyways, so the person who he was talking to,
I can't remember his name, but I believe he would
later become head of Israeli intelligence for a period of time.
But the person that got sorry was the person that
almost got arrested by the FBI, but James Jesus Angleton
stepped in and stopped the FBI arresting him when caught
stealing criytron triggers from you know, the navel in California
or southern California was one bb net in Yahoo. Young
Bibe was the person that stole the other half of
the nuclear bomb, and he would have gotten caught because
the FBI had him pretty well stitched up. They also
had Demona pretty well stitched up. And the only reason
Benjaminette Yahoo wasn't on the front page of every fucking
newspaper in the country was James Jesus Angleton kind of
like your little quip about like, oh and there was
a time like you know, I should have taken that meeting.
I would have saw Lenin and I could have put
a bullet in his face. Imagine what the world would
have been like if Benjaminette Yahoo was still rotting away
in some fucking gipmo place and the last I don't know,
twenty years, thirty years didn't happen.
Speaker 3: It's hard to tell. They wouldn't have the resources to
pull a Jonathan Pollard and get him extra dieted. That
whole ability to do espionage would be neutered. Can I
flesh out.
Speaker 2: I'm a little more stuff for would have lost their guy.
Speaker 3: Yeah.
Speaker 2: Uh, anyways, sorry.
Speaker 3: I think so it's interesting because, uh, what was the party?
I don't want to screw up with my Zionist history here,
but there's a reason I think yet such were being
commissioned to statute when he was defense chief, not prime minister,
defense chief.
Speaker 2: Of political party? Uh in Israel lakut?
Speaker 3: Uh shit?
Speaker 2: Is that?
Speaker 3: Yeah? Uh?
Speaker 2: Or are you talking about the opposite of the opposition party?
That was only in self as one time?
Speaker 3: So generally it was like broadly leftist until nineteen seventy seven,
it was mapile Vedah, and then they switched in nineteen
seventy seven to Knock and Began and they've been like
pretty much solidly lacut ever since. So yeah, Rabin is h.
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's been a one party state ever since.
Speaker 3: Yeah, they they split hairs domestically about this, but yes,
the purposes of the coalition, it is a one party state.
Speaker 2: Is that any different than what they do in the
United States? No, what really is the difference between a
Democrat and a Republican? What really is it? Like, Oh,
these are the things that we're going to debate fiercely
on and make it look like we hate each other
and we disagree about everything, but in fact we agree
about everything, and we pretend to disagree loudly about this thing,
and we only do it in front of you.
Speaker 1: At least the Reich didn't, you know, fake it. At
least they said all that their parties are illegal. You're
either with us or you're against.
Speaker 2: Us, because it always evolves down to this always.
Speaker 3: Yeah, Yeah, I'd like to flesh a little bit more
circumstantial stuff about it, Angleton and then get into like
agency structure Angleton was put in charge of the CIA's
relationship with the FBI. There was a big rivalry at
this time between FBI and CIA. Angleton was also pursuing
a CIA partnership with the mafia. Who are some of
these people that were getting involved with? According to this,
Angleton's work also brought him into close contact with the
agency's rougher characters, including Chef Edwards's security cops who helped
install his bugs, and Bill Harvey, who was prominent in
a number of the agency's assashed the nation jobs. Angleton
shortly after Fidel pat Castro took power in Havana, he
summoned to Jewish CIA officers, including Sam Halpern who had
been assigned to the agency's Cuba team and the other
one isn't mentioned, and then both of them were flown
to Miami and set to meet with Meyer Lanski, who'd
been forced to flea Havana ahead of the revolutionaries. Lanski
was part of the Jewish Mob but had close business
ties in the Italian mafia. Angleton told Halpern and the
other Jewish CIA agent to see if they could convince
Lanski to arrange for the assassination of Castro's it's kind
of overblown at this point. But people like to talk,
especially in the left, about how many times the agency
tried to kill Castro by like pouring stuff in his
drink and giving him an explosive cigar or whatever else
the deal was. But I did not know that Angleton
was so prominently involved with this.
Speaker 2: Yeah. Cory Hughes also documented kind of conclusively that all
of that stuff about US trying to assassinate Castro was bullshit.
If you hear the uh, I mean, and when he
says it, you're like, that's not true. And then you
think about it. If you know anything about how propaganda works,
you're like, oh, fuck, God, damn it. Whenever you hear
public like that, there's I mean, if it's like a
cultural meme about like the silly, cartoonish looney tunes acme
fucking exploding cigar things that the CIA tried to do
to kill Castro, that should tell you that the CIA
is lying to you. Yeah, just off off rip. They
were the CIA after Dulles. I mean, they made it
illegal to be right wing after Nuremberg, and after Dulles
they made it policy in the CIA. The only reason
that fucking bearded fuck lived as long as he did
is because of the CIA. They've been a fucking left
this institution ever since, ever since Dulles. Once the wasps
were purged, everything in that involves foreign policy out of
the United States is leftist if it's an institution that
deals with anything outside of our borders after Dulles and
I guess you're saying maybe maybe now, even so now
after Dulles and the executive branch has already fucking compromised.
Second Nixon starts to try and do his own foreign policy,
nobody told, nobody gave him an update like, oh, by
the way, we only do leftist shit internationally. Second he
tries to conduct his own foreign policy, you got to go.
It's been a leftist institution ever since. CIA is basically
a total loss.
Speaker 3: Now is this a good time to bring up a
secret team? By Fletcher Prouty.
Speaker 2: It's always a good time to talk about the secret team? Okay, Sure,
it's an important thing for people to know. So everyone
should pay attention to this bit because it still applies today.
Just because a person is doing fuckory out of Agency
X does not mean that they are an Agency X
person and that is an agency X agenda, Sure, maybe
from somewhere else.
Speaker 3: So there's there's two interesting points before I start here.
The first is that like something you can google when
you find the CIA reading room, is that there's a
reading list for all of the different you know, introductory
officers to the agency, and that they have to read
a lot about the agency's history, but particularly they have
to read about the OSS. And if you know about
the OSS, you'll know that there's a bit of a
delineation between like intelligence collection that the agency is doing
and covert operations that the OSS is doing. And another
thing to bear in mind about this information, because the
book I'm referencing was published in nineteen seventy, is that
prior to the mid nineteen seventies, the agency did not
button up all of its top secret information as tightly
as it does now. Currently. You know, if something is
classified within the agency, you're not going to ever get
your hands on it. But back in the day, in
the forties, fifties, and sixties, because there's this big confluence
of different agencies and the CIA is still forging its
identity and clawing resources away from other federal departments, there's
kind of missed overlaps of compartmentalization for security or clandestine reasons.
So that's how someone like el Fletcher Proudy can exist,
and also that he can present the information that he
does in a way where it's not censored. So to
understand who this man was. El Fletcher Proudy worked as
the focal point officer for contacts between CIA and DoD
on matters pertaining to the military support of the agency's
special operations. He personally worked with Alan Dolls and John
Foster Dolls. He recommends a series of books. I have
some of them, not all of them, but he says
that there's only a handful of books that really tell
the true story of the agency. There's an interesting inference
to one of Dolls's famous quotes, starting right ou off
the bat from Prouty. The first is that Alan Doles
is quoted as saying that intelligence is about ten percent
real intel, in the other ninety percent or so is
clandestine operations. What that sets up for Prouty is that
Dulles believes that the Agency is operating around the world
all the time countering all aspects of the invisible war.
What this means is essentially intervening in the internal affairs
of other nations without their knowledge or their permission, beginning
in both Berlin and Iran in the late nineteen forties
and continuing all the way through until Vietnam that Proudy
argues began as a major intelligence operation. Much of what
this Central Intelligence Agency as it is today, it has
become because of Alan Dolls. So to understand the overall
function of it, one document in my research that I
pulled up was something called the Dullest Jackson Correa Report.
It's from nineteen forty nine and it follows the official
creation of the agency after the National Security Act of
nineteen forty seven. That's the document that formally creates it.
But it's very specific, it's very compartmentalized in the functions
that it grants for the intelligence operations. Previously, it was
something that was done under direct supervision of under the
Joint Chiefs of Staff. To go back to Forrestall, you'll
see that the intelligence capacities of the War Department were
very explicitly by Forrest All recommended as Secretary of Defense
to be directly supervised by Joint the Chairman of the
Joint Chiefs of Staff. What this Dullest Jackson Correa report
that primarily pills rights and is put out on January
first of nineteen forty nine, is that this is like
the blueprint how I, as head of CIA, am going
to set up, design, and internalize the agency's responsibilities for
it to function in exactly the manner that I wish
it to function as, not as it is explicitly set
up in previous government documentation in the National Security Act
of nineteen forty seven. Just make that complex point very simple.
The federal government in the late nineteen forties, after World
War Two, transitions from OSS to CIA. Through it. It
goes through a series of bureaucratic processes. It gets stymied,
it gets changed. Congressman at various points edit it, alter it.
The agency is in a big period of transition. So
there's four directors of Central Intelligence before dull But it's
essentially this underutilized government agency until Dullas writes this plan,
publishes it in nineteen forty nine, and that as he
presents it to Truman, it's essentially, Oh, your audience coming
through stormy.
Speaker 2: Bad.
Speaker 3: It's all good. It's all good. The Jackson Carrera report
then comes out. It's now Doullas's agency he is appointed
after Korea after the Korean War is kind of an
intelligence failure to run and oversee this and that is
where sorry, I'm like really over complicating this because there's
just so much detail. So okay, the Dallas Jackson Carrera
Report was the CIA's mind comp Dulas describes exactly how
he's taking this from a low key intelligence coordination center
to a major power center in the US government, and
he can therefore position himself as the closest advisor to
the president. So the function of this secret intelligence organization
is to have a top echelon operations facility at the
White House level, a hidden infrastructure throughout other departments and
agencies of the government, and also the greatest operational capability
all over the world. So when you read about Cold
War era agency facilities, they're located everywhere on the planet.
And so how this comes to be done from Dulles
is that in the report in nineteen forty nine, he
recommends a daily twenty four hour briefing being presented to
the president and that the best information and actionable and
operationalized intel should be collaborated on and presented solely by
the CIA for the reception of the president. Now, why
something as bureaucratic as that matters, is that the agency
has direct control over what the presidencies and therefore they
are the only organization in a position to set forth
the response to the intelligence. So intel comes in, the
CIA produces it, They recommend a plan of action to
the president, the President signs off on it, the CIA
executes it. It's a cycle, and that is what establishes
the agency into the most powerful organization in the United
States government outside of the DoD. Because the DoD does
not have such direct access to the president, they have
to go through the Joint chiefs of Staff, which is
much more of a council and which is much more
hierarchical and is generally presumed to be and assigned to
be nonpartisan. But the CIA has no such limitations. So
let's see here, what is there to glean from this
rowdy is monitoring the agency. So okay, so you've created
all these different departments and the agency has control and
the ear of the president. But what happens when the
president wants to derive information from DoD, Well, the agency
can just put somebody in the DoD and if that
sounds insane. I'm going to give a real world example.
The way that the agency operationalized its offensive capabilities was
by working with it Browdy as a focal point officer,
so he has to sign off on all the special
operations and the agency itself, Yes, it can purchase planes.
But imagine if you have a CIA pilot, a CIA
you know, team of operatives, you have a CIA electronics
warfare or like decoder on that plane, and that plane
gets shot down. Well, now you're fucked because the enemy
country can look at it and see that. You know,
you can't have an ID in one of those guys's pocket.
That says CIA. It has to have something else. So
they would either use foreign governments or they would use DoD.
Now for the DoD to have fake members created for
the agency, that requires DoD approval of the creation of
those operatives. So the way that the US government and
in particular the CIA, conducted offensive operations was they would
have this like like a d C six or like
a DC three, a Douglas aircraft, which is a fairly
large aircraft at the time, propeller driven. They would make
everyone in there a member of the Department of Defense,
they would have ID, they would have rank, they would
have uniforms, they would have all US Army or US
Air Force weapon in paperwork, but they would be Central
Intelligence Agency. That would just be a cover. And the
agency realized that if it could operationalize all these people
all over the world to do everything from reconnaissance to
regime change, to covert operations, whatever, espionage function, guiding and
training local militias in country, why couldn't it just you know,
if you have a kernel flying the plane of a
CIA aircraft and that man is a CIA agent, why
couldn't you just have someone in the Pentagon who's CIA.
So I know that this is one of your core points, Stormy,
with how the agency puts agency people in various positions
of power. So do you have anything to add on
that point?
Speaker 2: No, that was extremely detailed and not being acecious law.
That was actually great.
Speaker 3: Yeah I can so I can add on that. So like, okay,
so one of the thing, give me, I'm just going
to turn the lights on here, just perfect, okay. So
page one eight, So okay, so so proud he's in
this position and he's seeing all these d OD guys
getting flown over the world, that he knows are CIA,
and ultimately it becomes a point of contention because at
the time, I think he's a colonel fulbird colonel. And
I think you said something very interesting on your last podcast, Stormy,
which is that colonels are the ones who really make
shit happen within the US military. Generals are much more
of like a political role, but if you want something
to actually get done, right, I think both you and
Pete have talked about this, like there's there's Colonel McGregor,
there's that other colonel who was also featured on Tucker
talking about the Ukraine funding. So a lot of these
on the ground guys are going to be lieutenant colonels
and colonels, and so he he sees this stuff on
the ground and what he's let's see here, I have
to pull a good point, so I'll pull this as
a direct quote so it's more coherent. During the past
twenty years, there have been many times when the Secretary
Defense or other military official has stated that the United
States needed to go ahead with the development of a
new bomber, a new submarine, or even a new missile
system because intelligence had acquired information which indicated that the
Russians had such a bomber, submarine or missile, and if
they develop it, then of course we find that we're
behind the times. So very very seldom are these facts
about military information revealed to the public, even to congressional committees,
and huge expenditures have been made on partial information. Why
do I bring up that kind of institutional point. Well, because.
Speaker 1: A lot of the.
Speaker 3: Information that guides procurement in Congress or guides DoD experimental
technology development, like Trump just announced the forty seven. Well,
for some accounts, it's been operational for the last five years.
DoD developed it because probably at some point someone in
the intelligence community wrote a briefing saying that the Russian
and Chinese are developing more advanced fighter aircraft. Right, So
DD would not have made that decision without agency advice.
So to understand how the agency operationalizes its own intelligence,
it's that there's monumental amount of raw polytical information out there.
According to Dulles. In Tragedy and Hope, Carol quickly writes
that Dulles said ten percent of agency information is actually
legitimately classified. Ninety percent of it is open source intelligence information.
So that's all stuff that you can publicly see through
like reading newspapers or you know, just pulling a poster
off a wall, or reading a political dispatch or something
in a government office. For the most part, like declassified
information is what it works in. So if that is
the case, using that information as a machine, as a
function to turn it into eventually an ask with that
like very small amount of classified information to become like
adod weapons system that requires the selective release and control
and analysis of information. If let's see it's grace traction report.
As General Dolevant Donovan and Allan Dalls had proposed, the
very success of secret intelligence would from time to time
create its own requirements for subsequent clandestine operations for no
more reason than the intelligence input had detected something somewhere.
The legislators knew that clandestine operations would grow out of
the findings of secret intelligence, whether or not there was
any national plan or policy to carry out in the
first place. This is why the Donovan, Dullas Clifford school
of thought requires the existence, real or imagined of a
constant enemy Communism. With a constant enemy, every bit of
secret intelligence that reveals the existence of communism is its
own reason for the development of an operation, then the
CounterPunch becomes the action of a machine, not of minds.
So I bring that up because the modern conception of
how the US conducts espionage overseas and how it carries
out covert operations is that the US like systematically went
to every left wing country in Latin and Central America
and Eastern Europe and just and Africa and just like
knocked them over needlessly. A lot of that was on
clear intelligence of communism. And because this is very key
and it speaks to like the anti communist, like pro
Nazi element of dullest like the guys at the top
were looking at the United States as the most powerful
country in the world, which had coached the best possible
espionage operatives from the Nazis, and we're now tueling them
against the Soviet Union. So if you have the most
powerful country with the best people, you would want to
leverage that as strongly as possible against the Soviet Union.
And if you have the biggest stick on the block,
why wouldn't you use it on every possible instance of
communism that you could find in the world. The next
part I would talk about would be the guatemal In
a United Free Company stuff. I was wondering if you
had any thoughts on that, Stormy, But that's a bit
of a subject change.
Speaker 2: Yeah, we might have to save that for another day,
to be honest, that's a whole other tangent.
Speaker 1: Sure, Yeah, that's a I mean, that's a series unto itself.
Speaker 2: I think it's a good series because I think it
was the last time the CIA was actually doing things
that were for America. And anybody that thinks that it's
just for like rich people and their overseas possessions, they
don't understand how power works.
Speaker 3: I have a good, very specific incident on that point.
There's a good inside look at the agency from the
mid nineteen seventies from its a biography of Richard Helms.
At one meeting in nineteen sixty one, this special group
at the agency discussed an incident in Singapore in which
two CIA technicians have been arrested while trying to polygraph
a potential recruit in Singapore's Special Branch of the National Police.
The polygraph operator had literally tried to eat his graphs
when he didn't like the results. So the Prime Minister
at this point, the brand new Lee Kwon U was furious,
and his anger only increased when an attempt was made
to bribe him with three million dollars in cash to
drop charges against the CIA people. And there's a back
and forth between at the time Bundy whose Secretary of
State sorry sorry, George Bundy edy special assistant to this
fucking title, special Assistant to the President for National security affairs.
Very arrogant guy, more State department than agency. He got
into an argument with Dulas over this incident. Bundy wanted
all future agency operations of this sort to be cleared
in advance with him. Dulls refused to agree. This was
CIA's province, the very heart of its expertise. Bundy was
in effect proposing that he be put in charge of
foreign intelligence collection, and that he was about to be
entrusted with the identity of just about every agent's in
the CIA. Imply employee, Dulas was not about to explain
his objections to this young man. He just said no.
Dulas's tone was almost courtly. Let's see, so, Bundy says
to Alan, you must realize this has a political aspect
to it. Dulas's tone was almost courtly, his voice soft,
each word distinct, Yes, Mac, I do understand that there
are some political aspects to this. Thank you very much
for pointing this out to me. But Dulles knew how
to say no and Dulas want. But that only brushes
the surface of Dulas's underlying flint. He was a hard man.
He did not shrink from ordering the assassination of foreign leaders,
and as a general rule, his charm but not his power,
stopped at the water's edge. At a State department meeting
about how to duel how to deal with Jamal Abdul Nasser,
that's in the Egyptian president I think around nineteen fifty
six and nineteen fifty seven, Dulles told a State Department officer,
if that colonel of yours pushes us too far, we
will break him in half. The threat was not an idle.
One other national leaders who elicited the anger of the
Dulles brothers did not survive. Mohamed Masade of Iran and
Jacobo are Benz of Guatemala for those who don't know.
In nineteen fifty three, the CIA overthrows the Iranian government
because Masada nationalized Anglo Iranian oil company, and I think
they used Rose else cousin or something for that one.
There's there's so many other sources with this, like I
haven't even touched a tragedy and hope as well as shit,
what's the other one? There's a couple other little like
stories I have about the agency, kind of funnier, lighter ones.
Sukarto was I think the president of Indonesia in the
nineteen sixties and the Agency wanted him removed. And the
agency thought that the best thing they could do at
the time was make a sex tape of Sukarto because
if they showed this sex tape to the Indonesian public,
they would be scandalized about it because they were like
a majority Muslim nation. So they got they got this
like fat Mexican guy who looked like Sikharto to like
fuck a prostitute. And then they took that recording and
they sent it to Indonesia and like publicized it there
and the Indonesians thought it was Zukarto. But in Indonesia,
you're like a big man if you're like promiscuous, So
the popularity for Sukarto actually increased in time. And uh
was another anecdote about the agency operations. I want to
like quickly illustrate the difference between like how the United
States and how Israel does things specifically follows.
Speaker 1: Let's let's do a part two.
Speaker 3: Yeah sounds good. I know this is like, this is
a lot. This is a lot.
Speaker 1: Yeah. Topic, Yeah, because we're gonna we're gonna jump into
something else and and we could be like I said,
I think I started this off by saying I have
a feeling we could go three hours and if I
don't cut it off now, I think we will. And
Stormy has to jump too, so I will. Yeah, let's
do that. Thank you, filos. Uh do a quick plug.
We'll get out of here.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker 3: I have a YouTube channel, follow Smiscellany, Not really, but
that's my plug.
Speaker 1: All right, Stormy, you want people to follow you?
Speaker 2: Follow you on Twitter, follow me on Twitter. That's the
only thing I have. And next time I will budget
at least two hours.
Speaker 1: All right, Yeah, I think we're gonna need it, all right, guys,
I think this is enough for people to chew on
for right now.
Speaker 2: So it's important for people to know how like intelligence
actually works because it's it's such a a meme that
I think is kind of hurts people's understanding when they
try and you know, figure out what's going on.
Speaker 1: All right. All right, guys, have a good night.
Speaker 2: Thank you. All right boys, good night,