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We're prohibited by Law eighteen plus terms 49 00:02:00.319 --> 00:02:10.520 and conditions of playing. See website for details. 50 00:02:12.240 --> 00:02:15.680 You are now listening to True Murder, the most shocking 51 00:02:15.759 --> 00:02:18.800 killers in true crime history and the authors that have 52 00:02:18.879 --> 00:02:26.159 written about them. Gasey, Bundy, Dahmer, The Nightstalker DTK. Every 53 00:02:26.199 --> 00:02:29.879 week another fascinating author talking about the most shocking and 54 00:02:30.000 --> 00:02:34.520 infamous killers in true crime history. True Murder with your host, 55 00:02:34.879 --> 00:02:37.400 journalist and author Dan Zupanski. 56 00:02:47.360 --> 00:02:53.199 Good evening, Think Nothing Ever Happens where you live. Suburban 57 00:02:53.319 --> 00:02:55.680 Nightmare is a collection of stories that are hard to 58 00:02:55.759 --> 00:02:59.599 believe except they really happened, and all in the streets 59 00:02:59.599 --> 00:03:01.800 and home of the Australia. Many of us know and 60 00:03:01.840 --> 00:03:07.800 live the suburbs. These cases range from recent murders to 61 00:03:07.879 --> 00:03:12.879 some historical stories that will shock and surprise. One of 62 00:03:12.919 --> 00:03:17.280 Australia's best young true crime writers, Emily Webb, probes the 63 00:03:17.280 --> 00:03:21.120 black underbelly of our towns and suburbs and exposes the 64 00:03:21.240 --> 00:03:25.360 darkness at the heart of Australian life. The book that 65 00:03:25.400 --> 00:03:29.599 we're featuring this evening is Suburban Nightmare, Australian True Crime 66 00:03:29.680 --> 00:03:33.680 Stories with my special guest, journalist and author Emily Webb. 67 00:03:34.280 --> 00:03:36.199 Thank you for a green disinterview and welcome back to 68 00:03:36.240 --> 00:03:40.080 the program. Emily Webb, thanks for having me down. 69 00:03:40.159 --> 00:03:41.080 It's the wise of pleasure. 70 00:03:42.479 --> 00:03:45.919 It is always a pleasure. And you've outdone yourself with 71 00:03:46.000 --> 00:03:50.280 this collection. As I just spoke to you, I was 72 00:03:50.360 --> 00:03:54.759 outraged with some of these stories because, as I had mentioned, 73 00:03:56.280 --> 00:04:01.439 Australia has a similar system it seems to the Canadian 74 00:04:01.520 --> 00:04:07.439 judicial system as opposed in start contrast with the American system. 75 00:04:09.159 --> 00:04:13.319 Congratulations on a fantastic collection here. Let's get right to this. 76 00:04:15.439 --> 00:04:21.560 Let's talk about a story that you titled mad and Dangerous, 77 00:04:22.319 --> 00:04:27.040 a killer named Kurt Dumas, and it starts off in 78 00:04:27.839 --> 00:04:31.639 September nineteen eighty five in Melbourne at a shopping center 79 00:04:32.040 --> 00:04:37.480 washroom and a woman is at the stall and cleaning 80 00:04:37.560 --> 00:04:43.199 up in this shopping center washroom and maybe you can 81 00:04:43.199 --> 00:04:45.639 tell us what happens from there. 82 00:04:46.879 --> 00:04:50.920 Okay, So yeah, this is quite an unbelievable story. 83 00:04:51.600 --> 00:04:51.839 Sorry. 84 00:04:51.920 --> 00:04:56.560 This lady was in a shopping senate that's on a 85 00:04:56.600 --> 00:05:00.879 main street in Melbourne. It's called Mete Plaza, which is 86 00:05:00.879 --> 00:05:03.720 in Burke Street, and so this was in the nineteen eighties. 87 00:05:04.439 --> 00:05:06.879 She was in the washroom washing her hands and suddenly 88 00:05:06.920 --> 00:05:10.279 she felt like a pain in her back and she 89 00:05:10.399 --> 00:05:13.399 turned around and there was a man in the toilet 90 00:05:13.600 --> 00:05:16.639 and you know, staring at her. And she was absolutely 91 00:05:16.759 --> 00:05:20.040 terrified that he was about to rape her, and it 92 00:05:20.079 --> 00:05:22.839 turns out he'd shot her with a crossbow. Now she 93 00:05:23.480 --> 00:05:24.480 managed to escape. 94 00:05:24.600 --> 00:05:27.920 He left, he got I guess. 95 00:05:27.920 --> 00:05:30.920 Spooped in a way from doing anything. But yeah, so 96 00:05:32.120 --> 00:05:36.879 that happened, and that went unsolved for a while until 97 00:05:36.920 --> 00:05:41.560 this man actually committed a really really awful, awful crime 98 00:05:41.680 --> 00:05:43.839 and was arrested for it. 99 00:05:45.360 --> 00:05:50.480 Now you talk about Kurt Dumas meeting Lindell Martin, Miss Martin, 100 00:05:51.240 --> 00:05:53.639 and they became friends, and they met at a Parkville 101 00:05:53.639 --> 00:05:59.079 adolescent unit, so they both had psychiatric issues. You say, so, yeah, 102 00:05:59.160 --> 00:06:04.000 tell us of all this meeting here and where Dumas 103 00:06:04.040 --> 00:06:06.079 their friends. They haven't seen each other in a while, 104 00:06:06.240 --> 00:06:09.040 and he Dumas is invited to Miss Martin's for dinner. 105 00:06:10.079 --> 00:06:14.079 So tell us a little bit how people discover that 106 00:06:14.199 --> 00:06:15.839 something went to miss at that dinner. 107 00:06:17.959 --> 00:06:22.759 So basically, so, yeah, Kurt and Lindale had met, yeah, 108 00:06:22.800 --> 00:06:27.680 in this Parkfield psychiatric facility. And now they were both young. 109 00:06:27.759 --> 00:06:28.600 They were sort of. 110 00:06:28.680 --> 00:06:32.439 Like, you know, late teenagers, you know, early twenties when 111 00:06:32.439 --> 00:06:35.759 they'd met, and so they re ran into each other, 112 00:06:35.800 --> 00:06:37.160 I guess is how you describe it. 113 00:06:37.240 --> 00:06:39.000 And they're both living. 114 00:06:38.839 --> 00:06:41.800 Sort of living inner city areas in Melbourne, and kurtit 115 00:06:42.560 --> 00:06:47.199 invited her Lindell to come over and have dinner, you know, 116 00:06:47.240 --> 00:06:49.839 whether or not I think they were in some ways 117 00:06:49.920 --> 00:06:53.160 romantically linked at one point, but yeah, stayed in contact. 118 00:06:53.319 --> 00:07:01.360 And this basically what happened is, Yeah, Kurt had invited 119 00:07:01.399 --> 00:07:05.120 Lindell over and during the course of the night, don't 120 00:07:05.120 --> 00:07:07.560 know it. We only have Kurt's version of what happened. 121 00:07:07.680 --> 00:07:14.160 He basically murdered Lindell, shot her with a crossbow, you know, 122 00:07:14.319 --> 00:07:17.199 as seems to be his with his weapon of choice 123 00:07:17.199 --> 00:07:22.879 as in the first attack, and then more horrifyingly as 124 00:07:22.920 --> 00:07:27.279 well as that actually ended up raping her as she 125 00:07:27.399 --> 00:07:31.560 was dying, and she was basically how it was found 126 00:07:31.560 --> 00:07:35.639 out that Lindell had died was Kurt's mother had gone 127 00:07:35.639 --> 00:07:38.600 around to his flat because he had fled. She'd been 128 00:07:38.639 --> 00:07:40.560 trying to get in contact with him. Now there's a 129 00:07:40.720 --> 00:07:45.560 big history to him and his mom and his childhood, 130 00:07:46.000 --> 00:07:48.399 quite a disturbed childhood that I can go into in 131 00:07:48.439 --> 00:07:51.959 a bit as well. And she basically went to the 132 00:07:52.000 --> 00:07:57.040 flash and found Lindell's body covered under under towels, and 133 00:07:57.120 --> 00:07:59.079 Kurt had gone missing a few days. 134 00:07:58.879 --> 00:08:05.680 Prior now they find they're looking for Dumas and he 135 00:08:06.759 --> 00:08:10.560 flees to Tasmania and staying at a youth hostel and 136 00:08:10.600 --> 00:08:13.959 that's where they arrest him. And as you're writing a book, 137 00:08:14.000 --> 00:08:17.879 they find a crossbow, ten arrow, some bullets, pair of panties, 138 00:08:18.839 --> 00:08:21.920 a lock of miss Martin's hair, a pair of handcuffs, 139 00:08:22.040 --> 00:08:25.480 masking tape, and a knife. And right from the beginning 140 00:08:25.519 --> 00:08:31.360 he starts admitting certain things and you write something that's 141 00:08:31.639 --> 00:08:36.320 again very amazing. He was speaking to someone. He was saying, well, 142 00:08:36.320 --> 00:08:40.159 she was still alive and resisting and the police officer 143 00:08:40.240 --> 00:08:42.200 asked why he did that, and tell us what his 144 00:08:42.360 --> 00:08:48.519 response was to this question on why about the tell 145 00:08:48.600 --> 00:08:50.320 us a little bit more about what you write in 146 00:08:50.360 --> 00:08:51.080 the book about this. 147 00:08:52.159 --> 00:08:54.799 So basically, yeah, he'd gone on the run. So Tasmania, 148 00:08:54.879 --> 00:08:57.600 for those who don't know, he's a state of Australia, 149 00:08:57.600 --> 00:09:00.000 but it's actually an island, an island at the bottom 150 00:09:00.159 --> 00:09:02.600 of the country, so he would have had to you know, 151 00:09:02.679 --> 00:09:06.120 get a get a ferry. It actually also sort of 152 00:09:06.440 --> 00:09:08.440 made a bit of a flip to a country town 153 00:09:08.480 --> 00:09:13.320 called Oyan, and he'd actually been stopped in the course 154 00:09:13.360 --> 00:09:16.440 of that by a police office. But yeah, he was actually, 155 00:09:17.120 --> 00:09:20.960 so I really apologize my alert on like a computer 156 00:09:21.039 --> 00:09:23.679 and I'm trying to turn them off and I will, 157 00:09:23.960 --> 00:09:25.000 I will get to. 158 00:09:25.000 --> 00:09:27.759 That, but sorry for that noise interruption. I think the 159 00:09:27.840 --> 00:09:28.879 update did something to it. 160 00:09:29.480 --> 00:09:34.519 So basically, he was actually arrested in Tasmania and they 161 00:09:34.559 --> 00:09:36.559 found this kit. 162 00:09:37.320 --> 00:09:39.120 Of stuff and he. 163 00:09:40.879 --> 00:09:44.200 And and that that kid of you know, weaponry and 164 00:09:44.480 --> 00:09:46.320 I guess a rape kit or a murder kit you 165 00:09:46.360 --> 00:09:49.960 would call it was part of what he did to 166 00:09:49.960 --> 00:09:56.960 to Lindell and she'd and he bound her, bound her 167 00:09:57.000 --> 00:10:01.360 mouth and basically said he got something that he fired 168 00:10:01.399 --> 00:10:06.480 the crossbow at air when the police were like talking 169 00:10:06.519 --> 00:10:11.159 to her. He really he said that he was so 170 00:10:11.240 --> 00:10:14.240 distressed at her death he couldn't eat for days. And 171 00:10:14.279 --> 00:10:16.799 he denied actually raping her after he'd shot her with 172 00:10:16.879 --> 00:10:23.039 the crossbow. But basically he'd said that tried to claim that, 173 00:10:23.120 --> 00:10:25.480 oh that was sick, that he'd never do it. But 174 00:10:26.360 --> 00:10:29.240 you know, the police were quite shocked basically that he'd 175 00:10:29.279 --> 00:10:31.559 done that. So it was quite sickening to the police 176 00:10:31.600 --> 00:10:34.279 who interviewed him. 177 00:10:34.600 --> 00:10:39.399 Yes, now you talked about Kurt Dumas's mother and she 178 00:10:39.600 --> 00:10:45.000 gave evidence at trial. Obviously trying to mitigate the severity 179 00:10:45.000 --> 00:10:48.360 of his crimes and hence the sentence. But she did 180 00:10:48.399 --> 00:10:50.279 say that he had a severe head injury. So tell 181 00:10:50.360 --> 00:10:53.480 us a little bit what she said about his early life, 182 00:10:54.080 --> 00:10:59.519 these injuries and other psychiatric contact that he had with 183 00:10:59.600 --> 00:11:01.799 the thor So tell us a little bit about what 184 00:11:01.840 --> 00:11:02.720 she said at court. 185 00:11:04.159 --> 00:11:07.519 Sure, So, Kurt de Musse was actually born in America, 186 00:11:07.720 --> 00:11:10.360 so he's an American citizen. He was born in Michigan 187 00:11:10.440 --> 00:11:15.000 in nineteen sixty five, and they had moved to Australia 188 00:11:16.320 --> 00:11:19.120 I think when he was about eight or something like that. 189 00:11:19.200 --> 00:11:23.080 But his mother had told the coroner's court so that 190 00:11:23.240 --> 00:11:26.879 in the coronial inquest into Lindell's death, she told the 191 00:11:26.879 --> 00:11:29.679 coroner's court that her son had actually suffered a really 192 00:11:29.679 --> 00:11:34.039 severe head injury when he'd fallen from a table when 193 00:11:34.080 --> 00:11:36.240 he was only a little baby, about three months old. 194 00:11:36.320 --> 00:11:38.279 So I don't know what he was doing on a table. 195 00:11:38.320 --> 00:11:39.320 Maybe they were, you know. 196 00:11:39.360 --> 00:11:42.960 Changing his nappy or resting him there, whatever, I'm not sure. 197 00:11:43.000 --> 00:11:47.519 But she had said that since that accident he'd had 198 00:11:47.519 --> 00:11:51.440 several brain operations. That was in America, and he actually 199 00:11:51.440 --> 00:11:51.799 had to have. 200 00:11:51.720 --> 00:11:54.759 A plastic plate put into his head because. 201 00:11:54.480 --> 00:11:56.639 There was fluid leaking in the brain. So I guess 202 00:11:56.639 --> 00:12:00.360 it was a shump you call it. And shed the 203 00:12:00.480 --> 00:12:05.480 inquest that the operation really changed her child. I mean, 204 00:12:06.759 --> 00:12:08.519 I guess you don't really know what a baby's like 205 00:12:08.559 --> 00:12:11.440 when they're three months old. But he had grown into 206 00:12:12.240 --> 00:12:15.720 quite a violent, predictable child, and he had kept getting 207 00:12:15.759 --> 00:12:19.240 expelled from school because of his violent outbursts and had 208 00:12:19.279 --> 00:12:23.799 had several stints in mental hospitals in Australia and the 209 00:12:23.919 --> 00:12:27.799 United States. Because they'd sort of moved to Australia, then 210 00:12:27.879 --> 00:12:33.360 he returned to America and stayed with some family members 211 00:12:33.399 --> 00:12:35.440 for a little while, and then he returned to Australia, 212 00:12:35.480 --> 00:12:39.000 so he kind of flip flopped around. And he actually 213 00:12:40.279 --> 00:12:45.600 had been caught in America when he was like probably 214 00:12:45.759 --> 00:12:51.360 a teenager. He'd actually been involved in an incident with 215 00:12:51.440 --> 00:12:56.480 two little girls who had basically almost really sexually assaulted 216 00:12:56.639 --> 00:12:59.519 and so he was then sent to a child and 217 00:12:59.559 --> 00:13:04.240 family for assessment. So he's quite you know, he had 218 00:13:04.240 --> 00:13:05.200 a very checked past. 219 00:13:05.240 --> 00:13:06.279 He was quite dangerous. 220 00:13:08.399 --> 00:13:14.440 Absolutely now in ninety six finally the trial is in 221 00:13:14.480 --> 00:13:19.399 December ninety sixth and by that time, again he's despite 222 00:13:19.440 --> 00:13:23.399 the statements that he made unprovoked a police that would 223 00:13:23.440 --> 00:13:28.360 indicate this super blase and casual attitude about what he did, 224 00:13:28.440 --> 00:13:33.279 and also to intimate guilt. At court it was a 225 00:13:33.279 --> 00:13:35.759 little bit different story. But they did have letters that 226 00:13:35.799 --> 00:13:39.360 were written to a work colleague that you say revealed 227 00:13:39.360 --> 00:13:42.279 the depths of his disordered and violent mind. What was 228 00:13:42.399 --> 00:13:44.720 some of the stuff that were written in those letters. 229 00:13:44.399 --> 00:13:50.399 That I'm I'm just going to I'm just getting to 230 00:13:50.440 --> 00:13:52.519 the book. I'm flipping through it as we speak. This 231 00:13:52.639 --> 00:13:55.360 is actually one of the cases I think that really 232 00:13:55.840 --> 00:13:58.279 got me going on writing another book. So I sort 233 00:13:58.279 --> 00:14:02.759 of felt quite, I don't know, shocked by it, but yeah, 234 00:14:02.799 --> 00:14:04.399 it's almost like you want to put these things out 235 00:14:04.440 --> 00:14:06.919 of your mind from times when you so you don't 236 00:14:06.919 --> 00:14:07.480 have to think. 237 00:14:07.360 --> 00:14:07.960 About it again. 238 00:14:08.080 --> 00:14:10.399 But you're right, he actually did write to a work 239 00:14:10.480 --> 00:14:15.519 colleague he'd worked at it's like a factory that he'd 240 00:14:15.879 --> 00:14:18.879 worked with this colleague, and I think this colleague. 241 00:14:18.600 --> 00:14:19.200 Was named John. 242 00:14:19.240 --> 00:14:23.080 I'm just trying to find the actual exact reference, but 243 00:14:23.519 --> 00:14:28.320 it basically when they were tendered as evidence, it was 244 00:14:28.720 --> 00:14:31.639 it was said by the judge that, you know, the 245 00:14:31.720 --> 00:14:34.720 letters provided graphic evidence that there was something very wrong 246 00:14:34.759 --> 00:14:37.440 with his applicants' mentality. So his friend was a man 247 00:14:37.480 --> 00:14:40.840 called John Bejo and he they'd work together at like 248 00:14:40.879 --> 00:14:43.399 a small goods factory like you know that makes you know, 249 00:14:43.519 --> 00:14:47.360 meats and salamis, things like that. And he actually gave 250 00:14:47.399 --> 00:14:51.080 evidence at the trial about a letter that Kurtjim Massid 251 00:14:51.120 --> 00:14:56.360 sent to him and in that letter quite sick. But 252 00:14:56.879 --> 00:15:02.559 Kurchi Massid actually signed as William Tell. That was his 253 00:15:02.639 --> 00:15:06.600 prison nickname obviously because of the crossbow, you know link 254 00:15:06.679 --> 00:15:08.799 and you know, in prison, I guess they're quite you know, 255 00:15:09.120 --> 00:15:12.919 very very dark humor with their kind of nicknames. So 256 00:15:13.000 --> 00:15:16.879 basically in this letter, John Beato gave the evidence and 257 00:15:16.919 --> 00:15:19.679 said that in the letter it was written, I'm sorry 258 00:15:19.679 --> 00:15:22.360 what's happened. I didn't plan it. The chance was there 259 00:15:22.399 --> 00:15:24.840 and I took it. So John, I'm capable of killing 260 00:15:24.879 --> 00:15:27.960 someone and I'm not even feeling guilty. I'm not a 261 00:15:28.000 --> 00:15:31.440 mad killer. So that was, yeah, that was one of 262 00:15:31.480 --> 00:15:33.440 the things that you know, was further grist for the 263 00:15:33.440 --> 00:15:37.320 mill for you know, the evidence that Kurt was you know, 264 00:15:37.440 --> 00:15:38.759 quite a calculated killer. 265 00:15:41.559 --> 00:15:45.320 Now with that, the court was convinced he was convicted. 266 00:15:45.720 --> 00:15:48.399 He was sentenced to life. And I want to preface 267 00:15:48.480 --> 00:15:51.519 that with very much like Canada we spoke just before 268 00:15:51.879 --> 00:15:55.879 the program, it's not really a life sentence, it's not 269 00:15:55.879 --> 00:16:00.399 an actual question. So he was sentenced to eat eighteen 270 00:16:00.519 --> 00:16:05.240 years before parole eligibility, eligibility, and then he got another 271 00:16:05.320 --> 00:16:07.720 sentence again, this is another thing we see in Canada 272 00:16:08.000 --> 00:16:12.879 A three years additionally concurrently, which means nothing in real 273 00:16:12.919 --> 00:16:19.799 practical terms. And he was released right exactly. And now 274 00:16:19.840 --> 00:16:23.480 he was released as early as he possibly could you 275 00:16:23.480 --> 00:16:27.440 write in two thousand and three. Now, yes, I think 276 00:16:27.440 --> 00:16:30.480 this story might be ending. So let's tell us what 277 00:16:30.639 --> 00:16:33.799 happens with Dumas when he ends up back in his 278 00:16:33.960 --> 00:16:38.840 home country of Michigan or apartment of America, and back 279 00:16:38.879 --> 00:16:42.960 in Michigan. Tell us what happens after he gets out 280 00:16:43.000 --> 00:16:45.320 of prison and when he's back in Michigan. 281 00:16:46.480 --> 00:16:49.480 Sure, so, yeah, he was released from time in two 282 00:16:49.480 --> 00:16:52.960 thousand and three. Now I'm not exactly sure. I couldn't 283 00:16:53.840 --> 00:16:56.840 find out, and if anyone doesn't know, I'd love to 284 00:16:56.879 --> 00:16:59.840 know you. So I'm not sure if was actually deported 285 00:17:00.000 --> 00:17:02.519 because in Australia they do have cause to you know, 286 00:17:02.519 --> 00:17:05.039 if you have been born in the other country and 287 00:17:05.079 --> 00:17:08.240 you may not be an Australian citizen. Like we've had 288 00:17:08.240 --> 00:17:11.799 a situations where people have emigrated, as you know, ten 289 00:17:11.839 --> 00:17:14.799 pound Poms had come over committed crimes and then when 290 00:17:14.799 --> 00:17:18.160 they finished their sentence, they're actually deported back to their home. 291 00:17:18.200 --> 00:17:21.400 And that it doesn't matter if they'd been a baby, 292 00:17:21.559 --> 00:17:23.920 you know, when they came to Australia and they hadn't 293 00:17:23.960 --> 00:17:26.759 become an Australian citizen, they get deported. So whether or 294 00:17:26.759 --> 00:17:28.680 not he was deported or whether he left of his 295 00:17:28.759 --> 00:17:31.119 own volition, I'm not sure. But he ends up back 296 00:17:31.519 --> 00:17:34.759 in America. Now there is actually mentioned that he has 297 00:17:34.839 --> 00:17:38.240 a daughter who was living in Hawaii. Now I'm not 298 00:17:38.279 --> 00:17:40.720 sure if this was a recent thing or if he'd 299 00:17:40.799 --> 00:17:43.640 fathered a child, you know, on when he was a 300 00:17:43.680 --> 00:17:46.759 teenager living in America. That stuff I couldn't find out. 301 00:17:47.079 --> 00:17:48.920 So he ends up back in America and he's living, 302 00:17:49.480 --> 00:17:51.599 you know, he's sort of working in some you know, 303 00:17:53.079 --> 00:17:55.839 you know, just blue collar jobs. I guess he's doing, 304 00:17:56.839 --> 00:18:00.640 you know, living in renting a basement of a house 305 00:18:00.799 --> 00:18:03.920 from a woman whose name was Denise and rock House 306 00:18:03.960 --> 00:18:06.640 and she was in her mid thirties, and this was 307 00:18:06.640 --> 00:18:10.640 in the township of Redford in Wayne County, and so 308 00:18:11.519 --> 00:18:16.279 he was living in that basement. Missus Howe's was was 309 00:18:16.319 --> 00:18:19.319 separated from her husband, but she was in a new 310 00:18:19.359 --> 00:18:21.599 relationship with a man. You know, she had a boyfriend. 311 00:18:21.720 --> 00:18:25.440 So she had known Kurt through one of her jobs. 312 00:18:25.480 --> 00:18:27.319 So I don't exactly know how it came to be 313 00:18:27.400 --> 00:18:29.079 that he rented the basement. 314 00:18:29.200 --> 00:18:30.640 So what happened. 315 00:18:30.680 --> 00:18:33.039 So this is in December two thousand and four, so 316 00:18:33.680 --> 00:18:35.039 you know, a year and a. 317 00:18:34.960 --> 00:18:36.200 Bit after he gets released. 318 00:18:37.640 --> 00:18:40.759 And so the man called Todd Newman who's in the 319 00:18:40.799 --> 00:18:43.240 relationship with Denise, is trying to contact her and he 320 00:18:43.359 --> 00:18:47.599 just can't get on to her. She hadn't shown up 321 00:18:47.640 --> 00:18:51.400 to her workplace. He'd driven by the house and her 322 00:18:51.480 --> 00:18:53.559 vehicle wasn't there, so she wasn't home and he was 323 00:18:53.599 --> 00:18:59.279 just quite baffled. So basically what he did with he 324 00:18:59.400 --> 00:19:02.799 was driving around the streets and he spotted her car, 325 00:19:03.960 --> 00:19:07.039 which was a Jeep Cherokee, but she wasn't in the car. 326 00:19:07.240 --> 00:19:09.079 It was actually Kurt Jamass in the car. 327 00:19:09.160 --> 00:19:11.680 And he knew Kurt obviously because he was the border 328 00:19:11.720 --> 00:19:15.960 in the house, and he basically chased it down, chased 329 00:19:15.960 --> 00:19:18.400 the car down and blocked the car off in a 330 00:19:18.440 --> 00:19:21.559 sort of coulder sack, you know, where he could where 331 00:19:21.680 --> 00:19:25.519 Kurt Jamas couldn't get out, and he called police basically, 332 00:19:25.720 --> 00:19:31.119 and so the police came, and you know, it was 333 00:19:31.200 --> 00:19:34.000 quite a suspicious situation. You know, Kurt Jamas had tried 334 00:19:34.039 --> 00:19:40.240 to evade the police, and you know, the police officer 335 00:19:40.279 --> 00:19:42.079 who was first on the scene had written in his 336 00:19:42.079 --> 00:19:43.240 incident report. 337 00:19:42.880 --> 00:19:45.519 That he approached the car, saw the man he was. 338 00:19:45.599 --> 00:19:48.279 This man was trying to rev the engine to get 339 00:19:48.279 --> 00:19:53.400 out of the ditch that he put himself into. And basically, 340 00:19:53.440 --> 00:19:55.160 so Kurt Jamask gets out of the car and they 341 00:19:55.240 --> 00:19:59.279 pat him down and you know, look at his identity 342 00:20:00.359 --> 00:20:02.839 and find out who he is. So they're obviously very 343 00:20:02.839 --> 00:20:06.119 worried about Denise at this point. So Todd's beside himself. 344 00:20:06.240 --> 00:20:09.440 Clearly he can't find her. So they all go back 345 00:20:09.480 --> 00:20:12.839 to the house. And so two officers went to the 346 00:20:12.839 --> 00:20:15.960 house to check on her. And this was probably quite 347 00:20:16.039 --> 00:20:18.119 late at night at this stage, about eleven pm. The 348 00:20:18.160 --> 00:20:22.039 house is in complete darkness. The keys to the house 349 00:20:22.039 --> 00:20:24.200 are in the car, so they use these to you know, 350 00:20:24.359 --> 00:20:26.000 get in the house. First of all, they ring the 351 00:20:26.000 --> 00:20:31.039 doorbell and then they you know, that Denise's got a dog, 352 00:20:31.119 --> 00:20:33.799 a very big dog, and it's barking. It's barking like mad. 353 00:20:33.920 --> 00:20:37.359 So they wait for Todd, the boyfriend's come to the 354 00:20:37.400 --> 00:20:39.440 house so he can come the animal down, so, you know, 355 00:20:39.720 --> 00:20:42.200 so they don't want to get anyone injured. So they 356 00:20:42.680 --> 00:20:44.960 get in the house and they're calling out Denise's name 357 00:20:45.000 --> 00:20:47.359 and there's no answer. So they're moving around the house 358 00:20:47.400 --> 00:20:50.240 and what happens is one of the officers goes into 359 00:20:50.240 --> 00:20:56.240 the bedroom and they find Denise on the bed. She 360 00:20:56.640 --> 00:20:59.839 had a towel over her midsection, her clothes were pulled 361 00:20:59.880 --> 00:21:03.480 up up, you know, she was naked from the waist down. 362 00:21:03.799 --> 00:21:06.160 There was blood, a large pool of blood near the 363 00:21:06.160 --> 00:21:09.640 side of her head, and she'd been bound sort of. 364 00:21:09.680 --> 00:21:12.160 Her arms were behind her back, and she was dead. 365 00:21:12.359 --> 00:21:17.599 She had been killed. And you know what had happened 366 00:21:17.640 --> 00:21:20.200 was this is Kurt Jamas. He'd murdered her in a 367 00:21:20.319 --> 00:21:24.599 very scarily similar way to what he'd done in Melbourne, 368 00:21:24.880 --> 00:21:27.400 you know, all those years ago in the nineteen eighties. 369 00:21:27.440 --> 00:21:31.119 So basically, yeah, he'd murdered again. 370 00:21:31.200 --> 00:21:33.200 He'd been let out and he'd murdered again in a 371 00:21:33.279 --> 00:21:36.079 very similar way. So these women just had no idea 372 00:21:36.079 --> 00:21:38.720 how dangerous he was. No one did, and I'm not 373 00:21:38.720 --> 00:21:43.000 sure whether that's because of lack of information sharing between countries. 374 00:21:43.240 --> 00:21:46.000 I don't have all those details, but I just find 375 00:21:46.039 --> 00:21:48.839 it quite shocking, you know, that he killed again he 376 00:21:48.960 --> 00:21:51.759 was I don't know if he was being monitored when 377 00:21:51.799 --> 00:21:53.680 he went back to the United States because he'd been 378 00:21:53.720 --> 00:21:56.440 in jail in Australia. So these are sort of unanswered 379 00:21:56.480 --> 00:21:58.839 questions for me. But I did get quite a bit 380 00:21:58.839 --> 00:22:02.000 of information from the Palace in Redford County that were 381 00:22:02.119 --> 00:22:04.559 very helpful with what they could give me under a 382 00:22:04.640 --> 00:22:08.680 freedom of information application. So that's how I got the 383 00:22:08.759 --> 00:22:12.200 details about what happened to Denife. 384 00:22:14.240 --> 00:22:18.599 Yes, as you're right to do miss again at court 385 00:22:19.039 --> 00:22:22.960 tried to portray things differently than reality, but in the 386 00:22:23.079 --> 00:22:28.640 end they realized that and the outraged mister Newman, Todd 387 00:22:28.720 --> 00:22:35.319 Newman publicly you know, pressing for and and outraged over 388 00:22:36.519 --> 00:22:39.160 that somehow or other he could have been convicted before 389 00:22:39.279 --> 00:22:43.160 and then to do this again. And he had found 390 00:22:43.200 --> 00:22:48.160 out that when his girlfriend was still alive, that Dumas 391 00:22:48.200 --> 00:22:50.200 removed her clothes and had sex with her and put 392 00:22:50.279 --> 00:22:52.640 duct tape on her mouth and her hands. Taped behind her. 393 00:22:52.720 --> 00:22:57.720 So and and when he denied premeditation, they did a 394 00:22:57.759 --> 00:23:01.240 computer check and so it at least it show that 395 00:23:02.200 --> 00:23:07.200 the information that they had in Australia again was incredible 396 00:23:07.240 --> 00:23:09.799 that this person was ever let out of prison, that 397 00:23:09.880 --> 00:23:12.720 he wasn't given a life sentence. This idea that somebody 398 00:23:12.759 --> 00:23:16.039 could have been rehabilitated from the kinds of crimes, given 399 00:23:16.079 --> 00:23:19.319 his background, given what he had done, given everything that 400 00:23:19.400 --> 00:23:23.680 he had said about the crimes, incredible, at least this time. 401 00:23:23.720 --> 00:23:26.880