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Speaker 4: You are now listening to True Murder, the most shocking
Speaker 4: killers in true crime history and the authors that have
Speaker 4: written about them. Gasey, Bundy, Dahmer, The Nightstalker DTK. Every
Speaker 4: week another fascinating author talking about the most shocking and
Speaker 4: infamous killers in true crime history. True Murder with your host,
Speaker 4: journalist and author Dan Zupanski.
Speaker 6: Good evening, Think Nothing Ever Happens where you live. Suburban
Speaker 6: Nightmare is a collection of stories that are hard to
Speaker 6: believe except they really happened, and all in the streets
Speaker 6: and home of the Australia. Many of us know and
Speaker 6: live the suburbs. These cases range from recent murders to
Speaker 6: some historical stories that will shock and surprise. One of
Speaker 6: Australia's best young true crime writers, Emily Webb, probes the
Speaker 6: black underbelly of our towns and suburbs and exposes the
Speaker 6: darkness at the heart of Australian life. The book that
Speaker 6: we're featuring this evening is Suburban Nightmare, Australian True Crime
Speaker 6: Stories with my special guest, journalist and author Emily Webb.
Speaker 6: Thank you for a green disinterview and welcome back to
Speaker 6: the program. Emily Webb, thanks for having me down.
Speaker 7: It's the wise of pleasure.
Speaker 6: It is always a pleasure. And you've outdone yourself with
Speaker 6: this collection. As I just spoke to you, I was
Speaker 6: outraged with some of these stories because, as I had mentioned,
Speaker 6: Australia has a similar system it seems to the Canadian
Speaker 6: judicial system as opposed in start contrast with the American system.
Speaker 6: Congratulations on a fantastic collection here. Let's get right to this.
Speaker 6: Let's talk about a story that you titled mad and Dangerous,
Speaker 6: a killer named Kurt Dumas, and it starts off in
Speaker 6: September nineteen eighty five in Melbourne at a shopping center
Speaker 6: washroom and a woman is at the stall and cleaning
Speaker 6: up in this shopping center washroom and maybe you can
Speaker 6: tell us what happens from there.
Speaker 7: Okay, So yeah, this is quite an unbelievable story.
Speaker 5: Sorry.
Speaker 7: This lady was in a shopping senate that's on a
Speaker 7: main street in Melbourne. It's called Mete Plaza, which is
Speaker 7: in Burke Street, and so this was in the nineteen eighties.
Speaker 7: She was in the washroom washing her hands and suddenly
Speaker 7: she felt like a pain in her back and she
Speaker 7: turned around and there was a man in the toilet
Speaker 7: and you know, staring at her. And she was absolutely
Speaker 7: terrified that he was about to rape her, and it
Speaker 7: turns out he'd shot her with a crossbow. Now she
Speaker 7: managed to escape.
Speaker 5: He left, he got I guess.
Speaker 7: Spooped in a way from doing anything. But yeah, so
Speaker 7: that happened, and that went unsolved for a while until
Speaker 7: this man actually committed a really really awful, awful crime
Speaker 7: and was arrested for it.
Speaker 6: Now you talk about Kurt Dumas meeting Lindell Martin, Miss Martin,
Speaker 6: and they became friends, and they met at a Parkville
Speaker 6: adolescent unit, so they both had psychiatric issues. You say, so, yeah,
Speaker 6: tell us of all this meeting here and where Dumas
Speaker 6: their friends. They haven't seen each other in a while,
Speaker 6: and he Dumas is invited to Miss Martin's for dinner.
Speaker 6: So tell us a little bit how people discover that
Speaker 6: something went to miss at that dinner.
Speaker 7: So basically, so, yeah, Kurt and Lindale had met, yeah,
Speaker 7: in this Parkfield psychiatric facility. And now they were both young.
Speaker 5: They were sort of.
Speaker 7: Like, you know, late teenagers, you know, early twenties when
Speaker 7: they'd met, and so they re ran into each other,
Speaker 7: I guess is how you describe it.
Speaker 5: And they're both living.
Speaker 7: Sort of living inner city areas in Melbourne, and kurtit
Speaker 7: invited her Lindell to come over and have dinner, you know,
Speaker 7: whether or not I think they were in some ways
Speaker 7: romantically linked at one point, but yeah, stayed in contact.
Speaker 7: And this basically what happened is, Yeah, Kurt had invited
Speaker 7: Lindell over and during the course of the night, don't
Speaker 7: know it. We only have Kurt's version of what happened.
Speaker 7: He basically murdered Lindell, shot her with a crossbow, you know,
Speaker 7: as seems to be his with his weapon of choice
Speaker 7: as in the first attack, and then more horrifyingly as
Speaker 7: well as that actually ended up raping her as she
Speaker 7: was dying, and she was basically how it was found
Speaker 7: out that Lindell had died was Kurt's mother had gone
Speaker 7: around to his flat because he had fled. She'd been
Speaker 7: trying to get in contact with him. Now there's a
Speaker 7: big history to him and his mom and his childhood,
Speaker 7: quite a disturbed childhood that I can go into in
Speaker 7: a bit as well. And she basically went to the
Speaker 7: flash and found Lindell's body covered under under towels, and
Speaker 7: Kurt had gone missing a few days.
Speaker 6: Prior now they find they're looking for Dumas and he
Speaker 6: flees to Tasmania and staying at a youth hostel and
Speaker 6: that's where they arrest him. And as you're writing a book,
Speaker 6: they find a crossbow, ten arrow, some bullets, pair of panties,
Speaker 6: a lock of miss Martin's hair, a pair of handcuffs,
Speaker 6: masking tape, and a knife. And right from the beginning
Speaker 6: he starts admitting certain things and you write something that's
Speaker 6: again very amazing. He was speaking to someone. He was saying, well,
Speaker 6: she was still alive and resisting and the police officer
Speaker 6: asked why he did that, and tell us what his
Speaker 6: response was to this question on why about the tell
Speaker 6: us a little bit more about what you write in
Speaker 6: the book about this.
Speaker 7: So basically, yeah, he'd gone on the run. So Tasmania,
Speaker 7: for those who don't know, he's a state of Australia,
Speaker 7: but it's actually an island, an island at the bottom
Speaker 7: of the country, so he would have had to you know,
Speaker 7: get a get a ferry. It actually also sort of
Speaker 7: made a bit of a flip to a country town
Speaker 7: called Oyan, and he'd actually been stopped in the course
Speaker 7: of that by a police office. But yeah, he was actually,
Speaker 7: so I really apologize my alert on like a computer
Speaker 7: and I'm trying to turn them off and I will,
Speaker 7: I will get to.
Speaker 5: That, but sorry for that noise interruption. I think the
Speaker 5: update did something to it.
Speaker 7: So basically, he was actually arrested in Tasmania and they
Speaker 7: found this kit.
Speaker 5: Of stuff and he.
Speaker 7: And and that that kid of you know, weaponry and
Speaker 7: I guess a rape kit or a murder kit you
Speaker 7: would call it was part of what he did to
Speaker 7: to Lindell and she'd and he bound her, bound her
Speaker 7: mouth and basically said he got something that he fired
Speaker 7: the crossbow at air when the police were like talking
Speaker 7: to her. He really he said that he was so
Speaker 7: distressed at her death he couldn't eat for days. And
Speaker 7: he denied actually raping her after he'd shot her with
Speaker 7: the crossbow. But basically he'd said that tried to claim that,
Speaker 7: oh that was sick, that he'd never do it. But
Speaker 7: you know, the police were quite shocked basically that he'd
Speaker 7: done that. So it was quite sickening to the police
Speaker 7: who interviewed him.
Speaker 6: Yes, now you talked about Kurt Dumas's mother and she
Speaker 6: gave evidence at trial. Obviously trying to mitigate the severity
Speaker 6: of his crimes and hence the sentence. But she did
Speaker 6: say that he had a severe head injury. So tell
Speaker 6: us a little bit what she said about his early life,
Speaker 6: these injuries and other psychiatric contact that he had with
Speaker 6: the thor So tell us a little bit about what
Speaker 6: she said at court.
Speaker 7: Sure, So, Kurt de Musse was actually born in America,
Speaker 7: so he's an American citizen. He was born in Michigan
Speaker 7: in nineteen sixty five, and they had moved to Australia
Speaker 7: I think when he was about eight or something like that.
Speaker 7: But his mother had told the coroner's court so that
Speaker 7: in the coronial inquest into Lindell's death, she told the
Speaker 7: coroner's court that her son had actually suffered a really
Speaker 7: severe head injury when he'd fallen from a table when
Speaker 7: he was only a little baby, about three months old.
Speaker 7: So I don't know what he was doing on a table.
Speaker 5: Maybe they were, you know.
Speaker 7: Changing his nappy or resting him there, whatever, I'm not sure.
Speaker 7: But she had said that since that accident he'd had
Speaker 7: several brain operations. That was in America, and he actually
Speaker 7: had to have.
Speaker 5: A plastic plate put into his head because.
Speaker 7: There was fluid leaking in the brain. So I guess
Speaker 7: it was a shump you call it. And shed the
Speaker 7: inquest that the operation really changed her child. I mean,
Speaker 7: I guess you don't really know what a baby's like
Speaker 7: when they're three months old. But he had grown into
Speaker 7: quite a violent, predictable child, and he had kept getting
Speaker 7: expelled from school because of his violent outbursts and had
Speaker 7: had several stints in mental hospitals in Australia and the
Speaker 7: United States. Because they'd sort of moved to Australia, then
Speaker 7: he returned to America and stayed with some family members
Speaker 7: for a little while, and then he returned to Australia,
Speaker 7: so he kind of flip flopped around. And he actually
Speaker 7: had been caught in America when he was like probably
Speaker 7: a teenager. He'd actually been involved in an incident with
Speaker 7: two little girls who had basically almost really sexually assaulted
Speaker 7: and so he was then sent to a child and
Speaker 7: family for assessment. So he's quite you know, he had
Speaker 7: a very checked past.
Speaker 5: He was quite dangerous.
Speaker 6: Absolutely now in ninety six finally the trial is in
Speaker 6: December ninety sixth and by that time, again he's despite
Speaker 6: the statements that he made unprovoked a police that would
Speaker 6: indicate this super blase and casual attitude about what he did,
Speaker 6: and also to intimate guilt. At court it was a
Speaker 6: little bit different story. But they did have letters that
Speaker 6: were written to a work colleague that you say revealed
Speaker 6: the depths of his disordered and violent mind. What was
Speaker 6: some of the stuff that were written in those letters.
Speaker 7: That I'm I'm just going to I'm just getting to
Speaker 7: the book. I'm flipping through it as we speak. This
Speaker 7: is actually one of the cases I think that really
Speaker 7: got me going on writing another book. So I sort
Speaker 7: of felt quite, I don't know, shocked by it, but yeah,
Speaker 7: it's almost like you want to put these things out
Speaker 7: of your mind from times when you so you don't
Speaker 7: have to think.
Speaker 5: About it again.
Speaker 7: But you're right, he actually did write to a work
Speaker 7: colleague he'd worked at it's like a factory that he'd
Speaker 7: worked with this colleague, and I think this colleague.
Speaker 5: Was named John.
Speaker 7: I'm just trying to find the actual exact reference, but
Speaker 7: it basically when they were tendered as evidence, it was
Speaker 7: it was said by the judge that, you know, the
Speaker 7: letters provided graphic evidence that there was something very wrong
Speaker 7: with his applicants' mentality. So his friend was a man
Speaker 7: called John Bejo and he they'd work together at like
Speaker 7: a small goods factory like you know that makes you know,
Speaker 7: meats and salamis, things like that. And he actually gave
Speaker 7: evidence at the trial about a letter that Kurtjim Massid
Speaker 7: sent to him and in that letter quite sick. But
Speaker 7: Kurchi Massid actually signed as William Tell. That was his
Speaker 7: prison nickname obviously because of the crossbow, you know link
Speaker 7: and you know, in prison, I guess they're quite you know,
Speaker 7: very very dark humor with their kind of nicknames. So
Speaker 7: basically in this letter, John Beato gave the evidence and
Speaker 7: said that in the letter it was written, I'm sorry
Speaker 7: what's happened. I didn't plan it. The chance was there
Speaker 7: and I took it. So John, I'm capable of killing
Speaker 7: someone and I'm not even feeling guilty. I'm not a
Speaker 7: mad killer. So that was, yeah, that was one of
Speaker 7: the things that you know, was further grist for the
Speaker 7: mill for you know, the evidence that Kurt was you know,
Speaker 7: quite a calculated killer.
Speaker 6: Now with that, the court was convinced he was convicted.
Speaker 6: He was sentenced to life. And I want to preface
Speaker 6: that with very much like Canada we spoke just before
Speaker 6: the program, it's not really a life sentence, it's not
Speaker 6: an actual question. So he was sentenced to eat eighteen
Speaker 6: years before parole eligibility, eligibility, and then he got another
Speaker 6: sentence again, this is another thing we see in Canada
Speaker 6: A three years additionally concurrently, which means nothing in real
Speaker 6: practical terms. And he was released right exactly. And now
Speaker 6: he was released as early as he possibly could you
Speaker 6: write in two thousand and three. Now, yes, I think
Speaker 6: this story might be ending. So let's tell us what
Speaker 6: happens with Dumas when he ends up back in his
Speaker 6: home country of Michigan or apartment of America, and back
Speaker 6: in Michigan. Tell us what happens after he gets out
Speaker 6: of prison and when he's back in Michigan.
Speaker 7: Sure, so, yeah, he was released from time in two
Speaker 7: thousand and three. Now I'm not exactly sure. I couldn't
Speaker 7: find out, and if anyone doesn't know, I'd love to
Speaker 7: know you. So I'm not sure if was actually deported
Speaker 7: because in Australia they do have cause to you know,
Speaker 7: if you have been born in the other country and
Speaker 7: you may not be an Australian citizen. Like we've had
Speaker 7: a situations where people have emigrated, as you know, ten
Speaker 7: pound Poms had come over committed crimes and then when
Speaker 7: they finished their sentence, they're actually deported back to their home.
Speaker 7: And that it doesn't matter if they'd been a baby,
Speaker 7: you know, when they came to Australia and they hadn't
Speaker 7: become an Australian citizen, they get deported. So whether or
Speaker 7: not he was deported or whether he left of his
Speaker 7: own volition, I'm not sure. But he ends up back
Speaker 7: in America. Now there is actually mentioned that he has
Speaker 7: a daughter who was living in Hawaii. Now I'm not
Speaker 7: sure if this was a recent thing or if he'd
Speaker 7: fathered a child, you know, on when he was a
Speaker 7: teenager living in America. That stuff I couldn't find out.
Speaker 7: So he ends up back in America and he's living,
Speaker 7: you know, he's sort of working in some you know,
Speaker 7: you know, just blue collar jobs. I guess he's doing,
Speaker 7: you know, living in renting a basement of a house
Speaker 7: from a woman whose name was Denise and rock House
Speaker 7: and she was in her mid thirties, and this was
Speaker 7: in the township of Redford in Wayne County, and so
Speaker 7: he was living in that basement. Missus Howe's was was
Speaker 7: separated from her husband, but she was in a new
Speaker 7: relationship with a man. You know, she had a boyfriend.
Speaker 7: So she had known Kurt through one of her jobs.
Speaker 7: So I don't exactly know how it came to be
Speaker 7: that he rented the basement.
Speaker 5: So what happened.
Speaker 7: So this is in December two thousand and four, so
Speaker 7: you know, a year and a.
Speaker 5: Bit after he gets released.
Speaker 7: And so the man called Todd Newman who's in the
Speaker 7: relationship with Denise, is trying to contact her and he
Speaker 7: just can't get on to her. She hadn't shown up
Speaker 7: to her workplace. He'd driven by the house and her
Speaker 7: vehicle wasn't there, so she wasn't home and he was
Speaker 7: just quite baffled. So basically what he did with he
Speaker 7: was driving around the streets and he spotted her car,
Speaker 7: which was a Jeep Cherokee, but she wasn't in the car.
Speaker 5: It was actually Kurt Jamass in the car.
Speaker 7: And he knew Kurt obviously because he was the border
Speaker 7: in the house, and he basically chased it down, chased
Speaker 7: the car down and blocked the car off in a
Speaker 7: sort of coulder sack, you know, where he could where
Speaker 7: Kurt Jamas couldn't get out, and he called police basically,
Speaker 7: and so the police came, and you know, it was
Speaker 7: quite a suspicious situation. You know, Kurt Jamas had tried
Speaker 7: to evade the police, and you know, the police officer
Speaker 7: who was first on the scene had written in his
Speaker 7: incident report.
Speaker 5: That he approached the car, saw the man he was.
Speaker 7: This man was trying to rev the engine to get
Speaker 7: out of the ditch that he put himself into. And basically,
Speaker 7: so Kurt Jamask gets out of the car and they
Speaker 7: pat him down and you know, look at his identity
Speaker 7: and find out who he is. So they're obviously very
Speaker 7: worried about Denise at this point. So Todd's beside himself.
Speaker 7: Clearly he can't find her. So they all go back
Speaker 7: to the house. And so two officers went to the
Speaker 7: house to check on her. And this was probably quite
Speaker 7: late at night at this stage, about eleven pm. The
Speaker 7: house is in complete darkness. The keys to the house
Speaker 7: are in the car, so they use these to you know,
Speaker 7: get in the house. First of all, they ring the
Speaker 7: doorbell and then they you know, that Denise's got a dog,
Speaker 7: a very big dog, and it's barking. It's barking like mad.
Speaker 7: So they wait for Todd, the boyfriend's come to the
Speaker 7: house so he can come the animal down, so, you know,
Speaker 7: so they don't want to get anyone injured. So they
Speaker 7: get in the house and they're calling out Denise's name
Speaker 7: and there's no answer. So they're moving around the house
Speaker 7: and what happens is one of the officers goes into
Speaker 7: the bedroom and they find Denise on the bed. She
Speaker 7: had a towel over her midsection, her clothes were pulled
Speaker 7: up up, you know, she was naked from the waist down.
Speaker 7: There was blood, a large pool of blood near the
Speaker 7: side of her head, and she'd been bound sort of.
Speaker 7: Her arms were behind her back, and she was dead.
Speaker 7: She had been killed. And you know what had happened
Speaker 7: was this is Kurt Jamas. He'd murdered her in a
Speaker 7: very scarily similar way to what he'd done in Melbourne,
Speaker 7: you know, all those years ago in the nineteen eighties.
Speaker 5: So basically, yeah, he'd murdered again.
Speaker 7: He'd been let out and he'd murdered again in a
Speaker 7: very similar way. So these women just had no idea
Speaker 7: how dangerous he was. No one did, and I'm not
Speaker 7: sure whether that's because of lack of information sharing between countries.
Speaker 7: I don't have all those details, but I just find
Speaker 7: it quite shocking, you know, that he killed again he
Speaker 7: was I don't know if he was being monitored when
Speaker 7: he went back to the United States because he'd been
Speaker 7: in jail in Australia. So these are sort of unanswered
Speaker 7: questions for me. But I did get quite a bit
Speaker 7: of information from the Palace in Redford County that were
Speaker 7: very helpful with what they could give me under a
Speaker 7: freedom of information application. So that's how I got the
Speaker 7: details about what happened to Denife.
Speaker 6: Yes, as you're right to do miss again at court
Speaker 6: tried to portray things differently than reality, but in the
Speaker 6: end they realized that and the outraged mister Newman, Todd
Speaker 6: Newman publicly you know, pressing for and and outraged over
Speaker 6: that somehow or other he could have been convicted before
Speaker 6: and then to do this again. And he had found
Speaker 6: out that when his girlfriend was still alive, that Dumas
Speaker 6: removed her clothes and had sex with her and put
Speaker 6: duct tape on her mouth and her hands. Taped behind her.
Speaker 6: So and and when he denied premeditation, they did a
Speaker 6: computer check and so it at least it show that
Speaker 6: the information that they had in Australia again was incredible
Speaker 6: that this person was ever let out of prison, that
Speaker 6: he wasn't given a life sentence. This idea that somebody
Speaker 6: could have been rehabilitated from the kinds of crimes, given
Speaker 6: his background, given what he had done, given everything that
Speaker 6: he had said about the crimes, incredible, at least this time.
Speaker 6: In America, he was sentenced to a minimum forty three years,
Speaker 6: maximum eighty and as you rate, earliest parole date two
Speaker 6: thousand and forty nine.
Speaker 7: And he'll be most well dead by that and so
Speaker 7: I mean there's no real chance of him getting out.
Speaker 7: But he very very mentally disturbed man, very dangerous man.
Speaker 7: And there has been a lot of a lot of
Speaker 7: publicity in Australia Melbourne, especially in recent years because we
Speaker 7: have had some murders committed by people who were on
Speaker 7: parole and were not really being monitored closely enough. So
Speaker 7: now the parole conditions are extremely much much tighter.
Speaker 5: So for instance, there was.
Speaker 7: A murder in twenty and twelve of a young woman.
Speaker 5: She was Irish.
Speaker 7: She and her husband lived in Melbourne called Jill mar
Speaker 7: and she was actually murdered by a man who.
Speaker 5: Was on parole.
Speaker 7: He was a rapist and he was on parole. Really
Speaker 7: hadn't been checked and so that was really the case
Speaker 7: that blew open this whole issue of you know, whether
Speaker 7: parole is a bit you know, being properly monitored, and
Speaker 7: that the fact that they're walking out on the street
Speaker 7: and a real danger to the community. So there's been
Speaker 7: an immense amount of publicity here. But in terms of,
Speaker 7: you know, when they jail someone for like your life
Speaker 7: without possibility of parole, we do have prisoners in Australia
Speaker 7: who do have that sentence.
Speaker 5: In Victoria in particular.
Speaker 7: There are I can think of at least probably ten
Speaker 7: that have that sentence, but that you know, it's the
Speaker 7: worst of the worst, and they deemed so dangerous that
Speaker 7: they can't be let out. But I mean, in my mind,
Speaker 7: Kurt jim Ass would have fitted that bill.
Speaker 5: I thought he'd probably.
Speaker 7: Needs psychiatric help for the rest of his life. Really
Speaker 7: at least.
Speaker 6: Yeah, I think that any judicial system that wants to
Speaker 6: take chances with killers is irresponsible. And when this sort
Speaker 6: of thing happens. Not that you can bring anything back
Speaker 6: or or convict these people of negligence in some way,
Speaker 6: but this demonstrates clearly why the US system is at
Speaker 6: least superior in this one way, despite the best intentions,
Speaker 6: maybe even the reformed, hopefully the killer would have changed
Speaker 6: in prison, but regardless, there's very little understanding in the community,
Speaker 6: and they listened to the community outraged to never let killers,
Speaker 6: or rarely let killers ever out of prison. Some states
Speaker 6: are different, but certainly given all the circumstances with this Dumas,
Speaker 6: I cannot see how he was ever released the first
Speaker 6: time myself.
Speaker 7: Yeah, And it's interesting because it's the case that really
Speaker 7: hasn't had that much publicity. In fact, I think this
Speaker 7: might be the first time it's been written about at length.
Speaker 7: But the way I found out the link was I
Speaker 7: had come across the initial case where he'd murdered Lindel
Speaker 7: Martin in the course of my crime rey search. And
Speaker 7: you know, as you do, you file stuff, you like,
Speaker 7: put it in a put it in a group of things,
Speaker 7: and think that could be you know, that could be
Speaker 7: interesting to write about. I need to find out more.
Speaker 7: And it was when I was just you know, as
Speaker 7: we do safety Internet, you're typing things in. I found
Speaker 7: this link to Denise House and then I you know,
Speaker 7: did a little bit of you know, tracking back, and
Speaker 7: that's when I found out that yes, it was Kurtji
Speaker 7: Mats and I when I made the approach to the
Speaker 7: Redford County Police, I wanted to obviously be absolutely sure
Speaker 7: it was the same person, because you need to make sure.
Speaker 5: There could be too Kurt Giamases. You never know.
Speaker 7: But yeah, I was really really shocked because part of
Speaker 7: the documents, and they're the picture of it in the
Speaker 7: book that I got from the police was the actual
Speaker 7: facts to Interpol to check whether you know about his
Speaker 7: prior convictions in Australia and ended up yes, it was
Speaker 7: the same.
Speaker 9: One particularly cinematic part of your of that story was
Speaker 9: when Kurt Dumas is the person that informs the police,
Speaker 9: and a senior.
Speaker 6: Official like that said, hey, listen, I've got a criminal
Speaker 6: record in Australia. So that official call Paul, he almost
Speaker 6: can't believe. He can't believe it.
Speaker 5: Yeah, that's right. He was shocked. I mean, when he
Speaker 5: was interviewed, Kurt Jamas was.
Speaker 7: Basically he said he was saying to the I guess
Speaker 7: the officer who was booking him in he said, oh,
Speaker 7: how's jail and the man the officer responded, why is that?
Speaker 7: And he said, oh, you know, you know, I'm guilty.
Speaker 7: I mean, he's clearly crazy as well, but quite calculating
Speaker 7: with it. And at this stage they did not know
Speaker 7: about his violent past. And then yeah, just a few
Speaker 7: hours later, I guess they would have found out from
Speaker 7: faxing into pol and you know, during the police interview,
Speaker 7: he he you know, obviously was talking about it and
Speaker 7: did mention that he'd been arrested for, you know, arrested
Speaker 7: for a similar crime.
Speaker 5: Many years ago.
Speaker 6: Now let's move on to We're not going to cover
Speaker 6: all the stories obviously in this book incredible collection, but
Speaker 6: I thought I picked out a few four and the
Speaker 6: next one I think that it really is one of
Speaker 6: the most amazing ones in the book is called the
Speaker 6: Ultimate Betrayal, The Murders of William and Pamela Weightman.
Speaker 9: So let's go through.
Speaker 6: This a little bit. I will say that in nineteen
Speaker 6: seventy nine this couple adopted David and they went to
Speaker 6: immigrate to Sydney, Australia, and she had a sister named
Speaker 6: Margaret Irwin and her husband was Alan. So tell us
Speaker 6: a little bit about who the Weightmans were and their
Speaker 6: life with David, what did it seem to the outside world,
Speaker 6: and the relationships she had with her sister and her
Speaker 6: brother in law. Tell us a little about their life
Speaker 6: before this tragic murder.
Speaker 7: Sure so, as you mentioned, Pamela and William, who was
Speaker 7: known as Bill, adopted David as a baby in England
Speaker 7: in nineteen seventy nine, and then they emigrated to Sydney
Speaker 7: when he was about three years old and they settled into,
Speaker 7: you know, quite a nice life in Sydney. They ran
Speaker 7: a successful childcare center. They lived in a nice part
Speaker 7: of Sydney and really did give their son, you know,
Speaker 7: all the things that you know, you would want to
Speaker 7: give a child, and so it seemed like a fairly
Speaker 7: good upbringing. And Pamela's was very close. The family were
Speaker 7: very close to her sister Margaret and Alan, who still
Speaker 7: lived in the UK, but I think they got together
Speaker 7: quite regularly. And yeah, so that was what life was like,
Speaker 7: and then it changed pretty tragically. In January of the
Speaker 7: year two thousand.
Speaker 6: Tell us what happened that day and how Pamela's sister
Speaker 6: got the information the news tell us about that and
Speaker 6: the details of what she learned.
Speaker 7: Okay, so what had happened is on the ninth of
Speaker 7: January two thousand a ranger was just doing a normal
Speaker 7: patrol of a national park in Sydney, Southwest and he
Speaker 7: noticed that there was a section of a wire a
Speaker 7: mesh fence that had been broken, I guess or was missing.
Speaker 7: And on investigation he found a car. It was on
Speaker 7: a fire service road, so quite out of the way
Speaker 7: of the off the beaten track as we say in Australia,
Speaker 7: off the beaten track of the main roads.
Speaker 5: And he actually.
Speaker 7: Found this car down an embankment and there was two
Speaker 7: people inside, a man in the driver's seat and the
Speaker 7: woman in the passenger seat. So they were slumped slumped over.
Speaker 7: The man was in the footwell and the woman was
Speaker 7: still secured by her seat belt. And these people were
Speaker 7: identified as as Bill and Pamela Weightman. And you know,
Speaker 7: they'd been married a very long time, they were childhood
Speaker 7: sweethearts and here they find them. They've they've died together.
Speaker 7: What happened then is Pamela's sister and her husband had
Speaker 7: to identify them. They room as straight at the time
Speaker 7: they attended the morgue. The night they were found, no
Speaker 7: one could find David the son to let him know
Speaker 7: what had happened to his parents.
Speaker 5: Obviously they were very very you.
Speaker 7: Know, distressed and wanting to get in contact with him,
Speaker 7: and so they had to identify the bodies, and.
Speaker 5: You know, their bodies were quite badly.
Speaker 7: Bruised, and you know, they looked like they'd been through
Speaker 7: a real ordeal. But basically what happened was the coroner
Speaker 7: put it down to a car accident, and this just
Speaker 7: didn't sit well with Margaret Irwin. She thought, this is
Speaker 7: not right, this is not how my parents die. My
Speaker 7: sister and her husband died. This just doesn't sit well
Speaker 7: with her. And basically David seemed to be very detached
Speaker 7: when he was told the news, like oddly detached when
Speaker 7: he found out his parents had died, you know, not
Speaker 7: the expected reaction you'd have when you find out some
Speaker 7: awful news like this. And then that set really in
Speaker 7: motion this quest by Margaret and Alan, and it really
Speaker 7: overtook their lives.
Speaker 5: It actually broke.
Speaker 7: Their marriage up in the end, but they were dedicated
Speaker 7: to finding out what exactly happened to Bill and Pamela,
Speaker 7: and unfortunately their suspicions were that someone very close to
Speaker 7: him that had killed them.
Speaker 6: You talk about such a fascinating story because they really
Speaker 6: did have a fight, you know, Alan and Margaret Irwin
Speaker 6: really fought against everybody, even the coroner's report, to say, listen,
Speaker 6: she didn't have the ring on her finger. She would
Speaker 6: never left home without that, and Alan question why they
Speaker 6: were even driving in this park. And so what did
Speaker 6: happen was that t He pushed and he pushed and
Speaker 6: he persisted, and finally in two thousand and one, as
Speaker 6: you write, there was a re examination of the case.
Speaker 6: They couldn't really they're not going to bring back the
Speaker 6: body because they were cremated. But the original coroner had
Speaker 6: to look at the information and realized his mistake, and
Speaker 6: so tell us a little bit about that mistake and
Speaker 6: his clarification of that mistake or correction of that mistake,
Speaker 6: and what that led to.
Speaker 7: Sure, So, as you said, Margaret Erwin and her husband
Speaker 7: just kept pushing. They were pushing for people to reopen
Speaker 7: this and in between and amidst this, David, who had
Speaker 7: inherited all his parents' money, was you know, living the
Speaker 7: life of Riley, traveling, you know, border house, all sorts
Speaker 7: of stuff, just living the high life. So what has
Speaker 7: happened was, eventually they did convince the coroner, whose name
Speaker 7: was a doctor Kaylor, to have another look at the case.
Speaker 5: So he brings up the original.
Speaker 7: Post modern file on his computer and this is when
Speaker 7: he realized he's made a really awful mistake.
Speaker 5: So in his.
Speaker 7: Report, when he had said that Pamela Weightman, David's mother
Speaker 7: had died of head injuries from the car crash, he'd
Speaker 7: actually been looking at autopsy results from another patient and
Speaker 7: he typed, he typed an incorrect report number into the computer.
Speaker 7: You know, you know what it's like, you hear it
Speaker 7: time and time again. Just one wrong number, you know,
Speaker 7: one wrong number can mean the difference between you know,
Speaker 7: a global financial crash or something like that. So he'd
Speaker 7: actually made this dreadful mistake and really botched the initial investigation.
Speaker 7: So the irwins kept pushing and pushing, and during this
Speaker 7: time they had really come to believe that David had
Speaker 7: killed his parents or arranged their death. So it was
Speaker 7: an incredibly you know, traumatic time for them. But basically,
Speaker 7: the injuries on the Weightman's bodies just did not match
Speaker 7: up with coroner's report. So Bill Weightman had bruises on
Speaker 7: his face, but they didn't match up with the steering wheel,
Speaker 7: you know, so that suggested that they've happened before the
Speaker 7: car accident.
Speaker 5: He had other bruises.
Speaker 7: On his body and it actually on re examination, it
Speaker 7: actually looks like, you know, someone had held him down,
Speaker 7: like someone's knee was on his chest of bruises, or
Speaker 7: he'd been gripped or pinioned by another person. He had
Speaker 7: these bruises on his arms, so really they couldn't be
Speaker 7: caused by a car crash. And Missus Weightman as well,
Speaker 7: Pamela had also had bruising, similar bruising on her arms,
Speaker 7: on her legs, and there was also sedatives found in
Speaker 7: their bloodstream.
Speaker 5: So this this new report.
Speaker 7: Really vindicated the Irwins with what they strongly believed that
Speaker 7: Bill and Pamela were actually murdered. They weren't, you know,
Speaker 7: didn't have a car accident.
Speaker 6: Now as well, one of the most dramatic parts of
Speaker 6: this story is you say this increased suspicion from Margaret
Speaker 6: and Alan. At one time, right after the murder of
Speaker 6: her sister, they had brought him into the family and
Speaker 6: tried to carry on as normal, but their suspicion grew
Speaker 6: and grew and grew, and so at one point the
Speaker 6: Margaret asked him and what it was. It's very dramatic.
Speaker 6: What does he say? How does she confront him? What
Speaker 6: does she actually say? And what and what does he
Speaker 6: how does he respond?
Speaker 5: Sure?
Speaker 7: So you know this this took quite a few years.
Speaker 7: So this is now in two thousand and four, so
Speaker 7: it's four years after they died. The couple, so they're
Speaker 7: still keeping David in the family fold. They're at a
Speaker 7: barbecue at their home. You know, it's Australian tradition, you know,
Speaker 7: a barbecue in summer and February, and basically they're pushing him.
Speaker 7: She's saying to David, all I want to hear from
Speaker 7: your mouth is what you did to my sister and
Speaker 7: her husband. And she claimed, you know that he David
Speaker 7: said Terry killed them. So Terry turns out to be
Speaker 7: a friend of his, sort of a loose association who
Speaker 7: became kind of close to him, and they hadn't been friends.
Speaker 5: For long before the deaths, but they had.
Speaker 7: Bonded over a love of motorbikes, and this Terry Dnay
Speaker 7: had actually done some work, you know, for the for
Speaker 7: Bill and Pamela, like done a bit of driveway work
Speaker 7: for them. So basically, when Margaret Irwin heard this, she
Speaker 7: you know, ushered David away to a quiet spot and
Speaker 7: wanted to find out more. And she said that David
Speaker 7: told her I killed them. I'm an asshole, basically that's
Speaker 7: what he said. Sorry for using that language, but that's
Speaker 7: a direct quote that that's what he finally cracked and
Speaker 7: revealed to her that he had killed his parents.
Speaker 6: Now they have a trial. There is obviously this Terry Denay.
Speaker 6: It's a back and forth. David testifies against Terry. What
Speaker 6: isn't in the end, what is the result of the trial?
Speaker 7: So basically they're both they're both in jail. Terry Denay
Speaker 7: actually got a longer sentence David Weightman, so it's quite
Speaker 7: you know, one of the things that really stuck in
Speaker 7: my mind about this case is, you know, the realization
Speaker 7: for Bill and Bill and Pamela that it was their
Speaker 7: own son who organized their murder. And there is there
Speaker 7: was evidence that you know, he was fighting for his
Speaker 7: life Bill, but he was sedated, so he would have
Speaker 7: been obviously not been able to fight it off, and
Speaker 7: as soon as he found out, he just was like,
Speaker 7: you bastards, That's what he said to them. You know,
Speaker 7: he must have been imagined that just so shattered that,
Speaker 7: you know, his own son was involved in this. It
Speaker 7: just would have been horrifying. So basically, Terry Denay is
Speaker 7: going to be eligible for parole in twenty thirty nine,
Speaker 7: so he's got a pretty long sentence, and David Weightman
Speaker 7: his earliest parole date is actually twenty twenty six, so
Speaker 7: in ten years.
Speaker 5: So they've been.
Speaker 7: There was a retrial that there was a few swarded trials,
Speaker 7: but Terry Denay was found guilty at a twenty twelve retrial.
Speaker 7: So yeah, they are they are going to be away
Speaker 7: for quite a while.
Speaker 5: And the Irwin's, you know.
Speaker 7: Obviously just left devastated by the fact that their nephew
Speaker 7: the child, but her sister and brother in law had
Speaker 7: adopted and loved and given a really good life to
Speaker 7: have done this.
Speaker 5: So yeah, and her I think the most.
Speaker 7: Telling quote I finished the chapter with was that Margaret
Speaker 7: il when I told a newspaper that her sister couldn't
Speaker 7: couldn't have her own children, and she was the happiest
Speaker 7: she'd ever been when they got David. And then you
Speaker 7: just have no idea that years later this baby will
Speaker 7: grow up to you know, you know, my child, my
Speaker 7: killer kind of thing. I think it's quite horrifying, yes.
Speaker 6: And and why you call it the ultimate retrial too,
Speaker 6: is just to add even more horror to this is
Speaker 6: that he was present when his mother was being killed,
Speaker 6: and then the killer of Dunay came and said, listen,
Speaker 6: that was a lot of hard work. You know, there's
Speaker 6: a lot harder than you think. I need help with
Speaker 6: your father. So there was evidence, at least it seemed
Speaker 6: that he held down his father and killed his father
Speaker 6: because jeez, he wouldn't have wanted to go on without
Speaker 6: the mother and super twisted projects.
Speaker 7: Yeah, and it was I think there's you know, there's
Speaker 7: guess questions about, you know, what heavy drug use does
Speaker 7: to you as well, because clearly he'd been an habitual
Speaker 7: user of marijuana and stuff like that. So I mean,
Speaker 7: you know, it's no excuse, but you do wonder what
Speaker 7: all this stuff does to your perceptions and your thought processes.
Speaker 6: We can't blame any external thing for this kind of
Speaker 6: behavior of holding your father down cannabis. I don't care
Speaker 6: what drug. There's no drug on earth that can excuse,
Speaker 6: even partially, any kind of behavior like that. I want
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Speaker 6: Dot com, slash unsolved to listen now, Unsolved Murders Now, Emily,
Speaker 6: we talked about the ultimate betrayal and the incredible case
Speaker 6: of someone being released after murder to commit another murder.
Speaker 6: Let's jump to this case almost. This is incredible. I
Speaker 6: had no idea. This is one of the most shocking
Speaker 6: and unbelievable stories that I've ever read. Incredible and you
Speaker 6: call it The Butcher of Wollongong and Mark Valera. Yep,
Speaker 6: this is amazing. In New South Wales, in June nineteen
Speaker 6: ninety eight, a housekeeper finds the body of sixty eight
Speaker 6: year old Frank rkel And she had worked for his
Speaker 6: father in the family. She had worked for him for
Speaker 6: forty years. He has been bludgeoned to death, hit thirty
Speaker 6: four times. Now he's the former Lord Mayor of Wollongong
Speaker 6: and he's a lifelong civil servant, worked in finance. He
Speaker 6: was the mayor from nineteen seventy four to nineteen ninety
Speaker 6: one and also elected independent member of New South Wales
Speaker 6: Upper House. And he was passionate about his city. Now
Speaker 6: despite this seven years after his political career, tell us
Speaker 6: what happens, what is he linked with? And so tell
Speaker 6: us first about the murder itself, what police find, who
Speaker 6: finds the body, and then you can tell us a
Speaker 6: little bit about his very illustrious past.
Speaker 7: Yeah, so you're right. So Wollongong is an area in
Speaker 7: New South Wales. It's quite heavily industrial, not as much
Speaker 7: so now, but it's time to the HP which is
Speaker 7: the Broken Hill petroleum still so it's known as Steel City.
Speaker 7: So it's quite heavily industrial, but it's starting to change.
Speaker 7: So Frank Carkel was you know, mister Woollongong, they used.
Speaker 5: To call him.
Speaker 7: He was was the city.
Speaker 5: He was quite dedicated to it.
Speaker 7: So yeah, he his body was found by his housekeeper.
Speaker 7: He was sixty eight at the time. He was in
Speaker 7: the bedroom of his granny flat, which is like I
Speaker 7: guess what we call a it's like a little bungalow,
Speaker 7: I guess, at the back of a property.
Speaker 5: And he.
Speaker 7: This housekeeper had worked for him for more than forty
Speaker 7: years and lived a few doors down, so she knew
Speaker 7: him very well. He had been bludgeoned to death, so
Speaker 7: it was an absolutely brutal murder.
Speaker 5: You know, there's blood spattered everywhere.
Speaker 7: And so he this crime did shock shocked the city.
Speaker 7: But Frank was quite a controversial figure because several years
Speaker 7: before he had been linked he'd been named him Parliaments
Speaker 7: by a fellow member of Parliament. He'd been sort of
Speaker 7: linked to pedophilia. So there'd been a wood Royal commission
Speaker 7: into the New South Wales Police Service several years before,
Speaker 7: and basically his name had come up in the investigation
Speaker 7: because there was allegations of there being pedophile wings that
Speaker 7: were run by you know, high level people, so there
Speaker 7: was a cloud hanging over him. And to this day,
Speaker 7: obviously no one knows, you know, if it was true or.
Speaker 5: Not that he was a pedophile.
Speaker 7: He was a lifelong bachelor. That doesn't necessarily mean anything,
Speaker 7: but often that can be euphemism for maybe he was
Speaker 7: a man who you know, a gay man. I don't know,
Speaker 7: but yeah, he had been a controversial figure. But yes,
Speaker 7: so he was found dead and it definitely shocked the city.
Speaker 7: And then there was more to come. So people wondered,
Speaker 7: was this because you know of what had happened with
Speaker 7: the Royal commission of the allegations, was this a potential form.
Speaker 5: Of victim of him that had done this?
Speaker 7: And then there was more shocks to come for the city.
Speaker 6: Now you talked about him being outed in parliament and
Speaker 6: that person's name was a miss franca Arena, and she
Speaker 6: also named and it's very interesting how the stories link
Speaker 6: in this book. A couple of stories that we will
Speaker 6: talk about this one in the next one where she
Speaker 6: also names a former and this is a very popular Again,
Speaker 6: you talked about r Kel being a popular person in
Speaker 6: his city. This is a popular judge, I guess nationally
Speaker 6: or at least this is a very popular judge this
Speaker 6: name named David yelled him and so miss frank Arena
Speaker 6: names him as also as well. And then another former
Speaker 6: mayor apparently was a key player in this pedophile alleged
Speaker 6: pedophile ring, and his name was Bevin. And in his
Speaker 6: death in ninety one, you write, there was tape recordings
Speaker 6: and other communications and notes from customers and from the
Speaker 6: boys they abused were found. And I proved that Bevin
Speaker 6: had abused boys and then shared them with other men
Speaker 6: for a fee. And then days after Miss Arena's claims,
Speaker 6: former judge David Yeldham gassed himself in his car and
Speaker 6: he said before he confessed to sex in public washrooms,
Speaker 6: but he denied having sex with minors. So this pedophial
Speaker 6: ring seems to be growing and more salacious contention all
Speaker 6: the time. Tell us what happens in the midst of
Speaker 6: all this next.
Speaker 7: So basically you're right all those things that you mentioned
Speaker 7: in David Yaudham was a very well nine judge in Australia.
Speaker 7: He'd actually presided I've been many very high profile cases
Speaker 7: and you know, I did make make it clear in
Speaker 7: the book that there was never any definitive linking of
Speaker 7: him with this. It was just that franko Arena had
Speaker 7: named him. But he had lived you know, he was
Speaker 7: a family man, but he had lived a private life
Speaker 7: of you know, private homosexuality, I guess, and had you know,
Speaker 7: he had admitted to the Commission that he had paid
Speaker 7: men for sex and was bisexual, but never never engaged,
Speaker 7: you know, in abusing minors. So it was actually I
Speaker 7: guess the shame of what had happened was probably too
Speaker 7: much for him, I guess, And that's what happened.
Speaker 5: So anyway, in the midst of.
Speaker 7: All these two weeks so Frank Carcale, that gets a
Speaker 7: lot of publicity that that murder, But what had happened
Speaker 7: was two weeks prior to that, another man in Wollongong
Speaker 7: had actually been murdered and mutilated.
Speaker 5: He was a shopkeeper. He was very popular. He had
Speaker 5: like a little you know life, a.
Speaker 7: Milk bar kind of shop thing in Wollongong, and he
Speaker 7: had been murdered and mutilated in his suburban home. It
Speaker 7: was a suburb of Newcastle called Albion Park. And police
Speaker 7: were really really reluctant to publicly link those two murders
Speaker 7: because they actually were very fearful that there was some
Speaker 7: sort of revenge killer out there because mister r Kel,
Speaker 7: so mister O'Hern was gay as well, but just very
Speaker 7: you know, quietly, so you know, no word that he
Speaker 7: was involved in anything that Frank Arkell had been, you know,
Speaker 7: connected to. But the police thought, well, these men, you know,
Speaker 7: there's these links and they were.
Speaker 5: Both brutally murdered.
Speaker 7: So the police were actually really worried and they didn't
Speaker 7: want to get the city so scared that there was
Speaker 7: a killer on the loose.
Speaker 6: Now you talk about this guy was mutilated, but as
Speaker 6: you detail, his head was found in the sink, he
Speaker 6: had been disemboweled and mutal leader's penis kind of off
Speaker 6: his left hand. A hammer was inserted in his rectum
Speaker 6: and some of them. O'Hearn's bowel was left on a
Speaker 6: silver tray along with pieces of intestines. Satan was written
Speaker 6: in the victim's blood on the mirror and wall and
Speaker 6: a pentagram and inverted cross and the killer this is.
Speaker 6: I couldn't believe the killers used O'Hearn's severed hand to
Speaker 6: trace the bloody messages. Now what the police feel that
Speaker 6: there's there's some connection with the r Kel murder and
Speaker 6: they believe it again it's some in revenge of some abuse.
Speaker 6: What is their idea and how do they proceed in
Speaker 6: the investigation from there?
Speaker 7: Yes, so basically, so obviously they've got the you know,
Speaker 7: the quite quiet suspicions that they could be linked, that yes,
Speaker 7: it could be possibly someone who had been abused and
Speaker 7: was the exacting out revenge. But there was no real
Speaker 7: link between Frank Carcel and David O'Hern except that they
Speaker 7: were you know, well known and popular members of the community.
Speaker 7: So they've got these definite concerns about this, and they
Speaker 7: there was another murder of another pedophile in Sydney and
Speaker 7: they thought, oh, maybe that could be linked. It ended
Speaker 7: up they were not linked at all. But the brutality
Speaker 7: of the murders I guess got them extremely worried that
Speaker 7: this was someone wreaking revenge basically, and you know, there
Speaker 7: was some people who you know, offered up profile thinking
Speaker 7: that this was probably a Youngish man who was you know,
Speaker 7: committing these murders. So they also concentrated their investigation into
Speaker 7: people who had an interest in Satanism and the occult
Speaker 7: because of the I mean that murder scene. It's about
Speaker 7: as horrific as you could ever hear about. And because
Speaker 7: of the you know, Satanism written on the wall, they
Speaker 7: started to look into people in the area who might
Speaker 7: who had an interest, and that actually led them to
Speaker 7: a man called Keith Schreiber and he actually didn't live
Speaker 7: that far from mister O'Hearn, so they are thinking, oh, okay,
Speaker 7: maybe he's good for this murder, and they knocked on
Speaker 7: the door. Keith Streiver's flat mate answered and his name
Speaker 7: was Mark Valera, but at the time his name was
Speaker 7: Mark Vankreevil. He changed his name and he was nineteen,
Speaker 7: and he spoke with police and he let them have
Speaker 7: a look around the place, let them look inside his flatmate,
Speaker 7: Keith's bedroom. You know, they saw some satanic inspired music, posters,
Speaker 7: pretty disturbing hand sketches that depicted beheadings and things, so
Speaker 7: they were starting to think, wow, this could be the guy. However,
Speaker 7: Keith Striver actually had a very solid alibi for the
Speaker 7: time of the murders. So the police are now just
Speaker 7: you know, on high alert. They really need to find
Speaker 7: this killer because they are very, very frightened that he
Speaker 7: will kill again. So they're basically appealing to the public
Speaker 7: after this for information, and this this drew out some
Speaker 7: pretty pretty solid tips for them from from someone including
Speaker 7: a woman who said her ex boyfriends wore clothes that
Speaker 7: were very similar to the ones that the offender had
Speaker 7: been seen wearing, which were basically, you know, boots and
Speaker 7: Nike track pants, and they had been found at the
Speaker 7: murder scene at Frank Carkel's and they were not obviously
Speaker 7: in keeping with any of the other things that mister
Speaker 7: r Kell's clothes, but like the shoes were a different size,
Speaker 7: and you know, he didn't wear night tracksit pants, so
Speaker 7: they thought that these must have been the killer's clothing.
Speaker 6: Yeah, And the girlfriend went on to say that the
Speaker 6: boyfriend was fascinated with the murder and became aggressive when
Speaker 6: she questioned them about the bloody clothes that were shown
Speaker 6: on TV. And as a result of that, Mark Valera
Speaker 6: surrendered himself, as you write, as a killer of mister
Speaker 6: r Kel Annilhearne. And he had confessed apparently to his
Speaker 6: Taekwon Doe instructor, and they went to police and it
Speaker 6: was a twenty hour interview where he confessed. Tell us
Speaker 6: about what Valera said in that twenty hour interview, which
Speaker 6: was incredible.
Speaker 5: Yeah, it's pretty scary that actually found. What was really.
Speaker 7: Frightening for police when they're very lucky that that he
Speaker 7: handed himself in, because it turns out that Valera was
Speaker 7: fashioning himself into becoming a serial killer, Like he'd made
Speaker 7: notes in a book called The eighthes It of serial Killers,
Speaker 7: and he'd written notes in that book that was some
Speaker 7: key evidence. You know, he'd written a list of people
Speaker 7: that he'd wanted to kill, and that did also indicate
Speaker 7: that people who were gay were on his hit list.
Speaker 7: So these men were targeted really for no more reason
Speaker 7: than they were gay. Frank Carkel obviously very high profile,
Speaker 7: and because it was a you know, it's a smaller city,
Speaker 7: not the size of Sydney. People knew where Frank carcl lived,
Speaker 7: you know, that kind of thing, so it wasn't like
Speaker 7: he was not accessible, I guess. So what was really
Speaker 7: disturbing is that he told the police that on the
Speaker 7: day he killed mister o'hearne, who was the shopkeeper, he
Speaker 7: was very quiet man, went about his business privately. His
Speaker 7: reasoning basically was that he just wanted to kill someone
Speaker 7: and it was just a random attack. So he'd seen
Speaker 7: mister o'hearne by sight when he was walking around the neighborhood,
Speaker 7: and really that was all it took for him to
Speaker 7: target him, which was really frightening. And he said that
Speaker 7: I had it in my mind that I just wanted
Speaker 7: to kill someone that day.
Speaker 6: Yeah, that was that was an incredible At least people
Speaker 6: got that bit of closure as to the motive for
Speaker 6: this incredible crime, despite what the media had sort of
Speaker 6: more than intimated. Now, the thing is is that he
Speaker 6: said he had At the trial. However, of course, Valera
Speaker 6: claimed provocation as a defense, didn't he, Yes, he did so,
Speaker 6: particularly in the in the cases mister Ohanne, and this
Speaker 6: was must have been incredibly distressing for his family.
Speaker 7: Valera tried to claim that mister Hearne had tried to
Speaker 7: you know, come on to him, I guess, and put
Speaker 7: him on the spot and asked for sex, which was
Speaker 7: absolutely not the case at all, like the forensics proved that.
Speaker 7: But that was his basically one of his defenses, that
Speaker 7: that that's why, yeah, he killed mister Ohan in self defense.
Speaker 7: But you know, it came out in the trial that
Speaker 7: Mark Valeria had had.
Speaker 5: You know, a pretty.
Speaker 7: Pretty horrible childhood no excuse, but these these things do
Speaker 7: get taken into account during trials, as you know from
Speaker 7: you know, Canadian trials.
Speaker 5: But it actually also.
Speaker 7: Claimed that he'd been sectually abused by his father as well,
Speaker 7: and this was apparently a real shock to people who
Speaker 7: had known the family, and he'd never before mentioned.
Speaker 5: This, so that was also brought up in the court case.
Speaker 6: Now if you even have the father goes on the
Speaker 6: stand to deny that there was any of this abuse,
Speaker 6: and then just when we think we're going to wrap
Speaker 6: up a story, he gets life with old parole and
Speaker 6: then ten days later tell us what happens ten days later?
Speaker 5: Okay, so well you're right.
Speaker 7: So Mark Falera gets sent in to life in prison
Speaker 7: and he is actually.
Speaker 5: Never to be released.
Speaker 7: So he's one of those prisons in Australia who will.
Speaker 5: Never be released.
Speaker 7: And he was the youngest person in the country in
Speaker 7: New South Wales the state where.
Speaker 5: Wollongong is to get that sentence.
Speaker 7: But yeah, so's he's in jail. So ten days after
Speaker 7: that sentence, his father's murdered. So Jack van Creevel is murdered.
Speaker 7: And what happens is it's even you couldn't think this
Speaker 7: story could get worse but basically the killer was Keith Schreiber,
Speaker 7: who was his flatmate and also the boyfriend of Mark
Speaker 7: Zilari's sister, Belinda van Creeble. So she had convinced Keith
Speaker 7: Schreiber to carry out this murder and it was brutal
Speaker 7: in the extreme where mister Van Creeble was almost decapitated.
Speaker 7: And she was twenty at the time, Belinda, and she'd
Speaker 7: basically been the mastermind of this. She'd claimed that the
Speaker 7: father had also sexually abused her for years and had
Speaker 7: even started to turn his attention to her young daughter.
Speaker 7: And basically she told this to Keith Streiber and said
Speaker 7: that you know you need to kill him. You know,
Speaker 7: he was killed with a fire poker, a knife and
Speaker 7: a tomahawk. And Belinda van Kreebele and her little daughter
Speaker 7: were actually in the house as their father was killed.
Speaker 7: And apparently Keith Striver told police that when he killed
Speaker 7: mister Van Kreeble, he did it for his friend Mark,
Speaker 7: who was in jail, and he said, I told mister
Speaker 7: van Kreebel, this is from Mark.
Speaker 5: You bleef used an.
Speaker 7: Expletive, pedophile, pedophile, expletive. You'll never molest another kid again.
Speaker 7: So Belinda had sort of, you know, said to Keith,
Speaker 7: you know, this is what's happened. You've got to like
Speaker 7: avenge what's happened.
Speaker 5: To Mark kill my dad? This is the reason why
Speaker 5: it's all happened.
Speaker 7: And she's actually sort of known. She's quite notorious in Australia.
Speaker 7: She's actually was the inspiration for a film that was
Speaker 7: made called Suburban Mayhem. It was like a black comedy
Speaker 7: about a manipulative teenage mother who gets her boyfriend who's
Speaker 7: pretty stupid, to.
Speaker 5: Murder her father as she sits in the next room.
Speaker 7: So she Yeah, she is a bit notorious in Australian circle.
Speaker 7: She is out of jail and they called her, they
Speaker 7: dubbed her Blinda like Evil van Creevel.
Speaker 5: So yeah, you couldn't think.
Speaker 7: It would get any worse, but it did. So this
Speaker 7: family certainly very very disturbed.
Speaker 6: Again disturbing sentenced. Striber gets twelve years minimum. Again I
Speaker 6: guess it's a life sentence with twelve years for all
Speaker 6: eligibility minimum and she gets six years for so litening them.
Speaker 6: So yeah, scary sentences, scary stories, scary killers, scary sentences,
Speaker 6: and you know, to add even more horror to this story,
Speaker 6: we're not finished yet. Blenda and Mark win three hundred
Speaker 6: thousand from her father's estate.
Speaker 5: That's right, and then.
Speaker 6: It too, Yes, in twenty thirteen, you right too, that
Speaker 6: she attacks her boyfriend, stabbing him five times and winds
Speaker 6: up three years in prison.
Speaker 5: Sorry, yeah, I can tell you about that.
Speaker 7: Tell it about that, about when she attacked the boyfriend.
Speaker 5: Is that what you want me to talk about?
Speaker 6: Well? And also a sixty minute interview that was very sure,
Speaker 6: very very interesting.
Speaker 7: Sure, so sixty minutes. It's similar to you know, the
Speaker 7: American version. It's one of our current affairs shows. So yeah, Blinda,
Speaker 7: she's out. She's with a man called Marshall Gould, and
Speaker 7: she attacks him. She basically stabs him during an argument,
Speaker 7: and he's still very protective of her, so he tells
Speaker 7: the police that he's been mugked and attacked by three men.
Speaker 7: But obviously, when the police search the couple's home, they
Speaker 7: find a blood stain, and he basically tells the reporters
Speaker 7: when she was sentenced that he still loves her and
Speaker 7: he supports her, and it's because she's had a troubled childhood.
Speaker 7: Now they're not together now, so she does her jail sentence.
Speaker 5: And further fuel to.
Speaker 7: The fire of Belinda being quite a notorious woman. It
Speaker 7: was reported in a newspaper called The Daily Telegraph that
Speaker 7: she whispered to her boyfriend, if anyone asks why you're
Speaker 7: sticking with me, tell them it's because I'm sexy. And
Speaker 7: that was yeah, I'm one of those saalacious details of
Speaker 7: this case. And so when she was released from prison
Speaker 7: in twenty fifteen, she gives this exclusive interview to sixty
Speaker 7: Minutes and the reporter you know, says to her, well,
Speaker 7: can people feel safe with you out in the community again,
Speaker 7: And he sort of smiles and says, oh, why not.
Speaker 7: And it's described that in one of the most dramatic
Speaker 7: moments of the interview. So the reporter hands Belinda the
Speaker 7: book that her brother had written his killing list in
Speaker 7: the eighth deet of serial Killers, and that had the yeah,
Speaker 7: the handwritten list of his intended victims. And she'd never
Speaker 7: seen this book before up close, apparently, and written on
Speaker 7: the hit list was her name. And so she looks
Speaker 7: really shocked in the interview, but then quickly brushes it
Speaker 7: aside and says, well, that's.
Speaker 5: Just him being angry. So there's this very odd.
Speaker 7: I guess sibling bond between them. Yeah, that defies all
Speaker 7: the things that have happened.
Speaker 6: Yes, fascinating, fascinating. Now we have time for one more story,
Speaker 6: and there's a whole another amazing one called The Killer
Speaker 6: down the Street Debbie Keegan murder, and you open with
Speaker 6: a very dramatic scene. Basically there's a crowd outside the
Speaker 6: courtroom yelling kill him, kill him, to a man who
Speaker 6: towards a man who had murdered and raped the little girl.
Speaker 6: And you also include a eighteen months before this date,
Speaker 6: in nineteen eighty seven, another rape, but far worse, tell
Speaker 6: us about as you do in this introduce this story
Speaker 6: the Killer down the Street and the crowd outside the
Speaker 6: courtroom asking for someone's head.
Speaker 7: Sure, so this case was from the mid nineteen eighties.
Speaker 7: It was nineteen eighty seven, and there's a very stock
Speaker 7: photo in the newspaper report. It's this line policeman trying
Speaker 7: to hold back this crowd who.
Speaker 5: Are basically buying for the blood of this.
Speaker 7: Offender who is being driven to court, you know, in
Speaker 7: the back of the back of the police wagon, and
Speaker 7: you know they're basically chanting killing, killing, So they're at
Speaker 7: Blacktown Court, which is in Sydney's out of West and
Speaker 7: you know that's a bit of It's always been known
Speaker 7: as a bit of a hard scrabble area, so real,
Speaker 7: real working class, really some pockets of real I guess
Speaker 7: social deprivation, but yeah, they're very, very They all gathered
Speaker 7: and they were just, yeah, wanting this guy to be killed.
Speaker 7: What the reason they were also so upset was because
Speaker 7: eighteen months before there had been the murder of a
Speaker 7: rape of a young nurse called Anita Copy And this
Speaker 7: case remains one of still one of the most shocking
Speaker 7: cases in Australian history. It absolutely horrified the country. And
Speaker 7: Anita had been abducted on her way home from work
Speaker 7: one night by a gang of men, some of them
Speaker 7: were teenagers actually, and they had it's very disturbing. They
Speaker 7: had basically gang raped her and murdered her in the
Speaker 7: most brutal fashion. So that community and Australia was really
Speaker 7: still reeling from that. So what had happened with this
Speaker 7: particular murder in nineteen eighty seven was of a little
Speaker 7: girl called Debbie Kegan and she was nine years old.
Speaker 7: And what has happened is she lived in a suburb
Speaker 7: too culture Gear, which is kind of in the Mount
Speaker 7: Druid area of that area of Sydney, So yeah, very yeah,
Speaker 7: quite quite a you know about a Batler kind of town,
Speaker 7: a Bautler suburb. I guess you'd described it at the time.
Speaker 7: And so she had been murdered in her house. Someone
Speaker 7: had got into the house and basically raped and suffocated
Speaker 7: her and you know it wasn't discovered till the morning
Speaker 7: by her mother. So that just absolutely you know, devastated,
Speaker 7: you know, New South Wales again and Australia.
Speaker 6: Yes, you aptly described this in vivid detail. And his
Speaker 6: mother had been separated from her husband and she had
Speaker 6: four little girls living in a house. And when she
Speaker 6: woke up in the morning after she put the kids
Speaker 6: to bed, the Debbie was sleeping with her sister, Sarah,
Speaker 6: which was seven yep. And when the mother came to
Speaker 6: wakem in the morning, her daughter was unresponsive and then
Speaker 6: she discovered the brutality, the savage murder, and also that
Speaker 6: the window had been open. But anyway, the outrage in
Speaker 6: the community is obviously natural. But as you say, the
Speaker 6: police didn't find any forced entry, so they have to
Speaker 6: speculate that they knew the family, but there was something
Speaker 6: that had happened on the night that Debbie was killed
Speaker 6: next door, So tell us what police thought about that
Speaker 6: possible connection from that break and enter that same night.
Speaker 7: So yeah, on the same night that Debbie was killed,
Speaker 7: there had been a burglary at the house next door
Speaker 7: to Debbie's Debbie's house, and a video recorder had been stolen.
Speaker 7: So the neighbor had woken up at about four am
Speaker 7: to feed her baby, and she'd seen her front door
Speaker 7: and land room window wide open. Now, you know, back then,
Speaker 7: simpler time, you know, maybe people didn't lock their houses
Speaker 7: as much as they do now. But the police just
Speaker 7: found it quite interesting that this had happened on the
Speaker 7: same night that Debbie had murdered, So they were trying
Speaker 7: to work out if it was connected or if it
Speaker 7: was just a coincidence. And there was no sign of
Speaker 7: fourth century to Debbie Debbie's home, so yeah, that led
Speaker 7: police to believe that the killer knew the family, or
Speaker 7: they knew they possibly knew the family situation. That there
Speaker 7: wasn't like an adult male in the house at the time,
Speaker 7: so obviously they might feel, you know, it was easier
Speaker 7: to commit a crime. So yeah, they think.
Speaker 5: That possibly the killer just really walked in the door.
Speaker 7: Oh you know, Debbie's mum had fallen asleep in the
Speaker 7: ta you know, in front of the taba.
Speaker 5: We've all done that before.
Speaker 7: And yeah, the killer it possibly got in the house.
Speaker 6: Now two days after while people, you know, the community
Speaker 6: is reeling and the police are are are running around
Speaker 6: trying to look for suspects. Two days after, a seventeen
Speaker 6: month old was abducted in Liverpool and the person who
Speaker 6: took them also in that case stole the video camera.
Speaker 6: Now that baby was found, but there there was an
Speaker 6: attempted sexual assault. So now and then we take it
Speaker 6: from there. You take it from there that Now we're
Speaker 6: at the funeral for Debbie. Yes, and tell us what
Speaker 6: happens at this funeral.
Speaker 7: So yes, obviously there's like more than one hundred people
Speaker 7: at the funeral, very emotional. The media were there and
Speaker 7: on the cover of the service booklets Debbie used to
Speaker 7: do little tapist reason, they had a picture of the
Speaker 7: tapestry she'd done when she was six years old. So
Speaker 7: it's just heartbreaking, you know the innocence of that match
Speaker 7: with the you know, how she died and during the funeral,
Speaker 7: so all the media there there was a handwritten note
Speaker 7: that was basically thrown into a television then part near
Speaker 7: the cemetery, so they handed the letter to detectives and
Speaker 7: the note was written in three different colors of pen
Speaker 7: and had quite a few spelling mistakes. And this letter
Speaker 7: letter writer claimed that the killer was known to the
Speaker 7: Keigan family and was actually at her funeral service. So look,
Speaker 7: the funeral was widely covered in the newspapers. And the
Speaker 7: letter also made mention of another case in nineteen eighty
Speaker 7: seven prior to Debbie's murder as well, a little girl
Speaker 7: had been killed in her house while she was helping
Speaker 7: to set the dinner table. Someone had driven past the
Speaker 7: house and basically fired into Lack a drive by shooting.
Speaker 7: Her name was Testabrinkat and she was five years old.
Speaker 7: And that that was another very very high profile case
Speaker 7: in a hit. You know, people were absolutely appalled and
Speaker 7: it really called into question, you know, the violence around
Speaker 7: Western Sydney.
Speaker 5: What was the government doing about it?
Speaker 7: So basically what had happened was it actually never really
Speaker 7: a lot of the charges got dropped against these people,
Speaker 7: but it was apparently a you know, some sort of
Speaker 7: payback I guess against Tess's father, who was allegedly having
Speaker 7: a feud with one of the people who had been
Speaker 7: arrested for shooting.
Speaker 5: So it was a really, really horrible, horrible story.
Speaker 7: Of an innocent, a little innocent girl like Debbie being murdered.
Speaker 5: So, yeah, so that happened.
Speaker 7: They didn't really work anything out more from the note,
Speaker 7: but it did gave them stronger cause to believe that, yeah,
Speaker 7: the killer was going to be close by. It wasn't
Speaker 7: someone who traveled from out of the area and committed
Speaker 7: the crime.
Speaker 6: As I mentioned before, what's interesting is that that person
Speaker 6: that was convicted of manslaughter in that shooting of that
Speaker 6: child was again life, but served only twelve years, and
Speaker 6: he was sentenced by the judge David yelled him from
Speaker 6: the previous story. Now it tells you that now you
Speaker 6: jumped to the police have or get a suspect for
Speaker 6: Debbie's death, and it's Rodney Thomas Clark. How did they
Speaker 6: come to he become a suspect and once they have him,
Speaker 6: once they questioned him, what does he do?
Speaker 7: He basically confesses. So they'd interviewed him a few days
Speaker 7: after the killing, because they'd obviously gone around in campus
Speaker 7: the area and interviewed lots of people, and then again
Speaker 7: a week later he went to the police station, the
Speaker 7: local police station, which was Mount Droit PlayStation. He went voluntarily,
Speaker 7: so he was a twenty one year old. He was
Speaker 7: with his parents and younger brothers in the same street.
Speaker 7: And in this police interview he admitted he killed Debbie.
Speaker 7: So he told them he climbed in the back window
Speaker 7: to get access.
Speaker 5: To the house.
Speaker 7: He just walked through the house, noticed that Debbie's mum
Speaker 7: was asleep, and he claimed that Debbie had disturbed him,
Speaker 7: like whether or not he was there to rob the house.
Speaker 5: But then it.
Speaker 7: You know, he claimed that he put his hand over
Speaker 7: her mouth and he didn't mean to kill her. But
Speaker 7: then obviously police are questioning him about, you know, she
Speaker 7: was sexually assaulted, and it basically turned out that it
Speaker 7: was while this was happening, she'd been suffocated because he
Speaker 7: was like holding her head down into a pillow. So
Speaker 7: it's just the most awful thing, like, yeah, and that's
Speaker 7: how she died.
Speaker 6: There wasn't back and forth too, of course, to mitigate
Speaker 6: his sentence. Of course, why not. They found him borderline
Speaker 6: mentally returned guarded, but he was sobbing in court, as
Speaker 6: you report, his family was supporting him all the way,
Speaker 6: and they talked about his history of drugs and alcohol.
Speaker 6: At first he had said he was not alone, but
Speaker 6: later admitted that that was a lie, and there was
Speaker 6: some attempt in appeal court to say that this was
Speaker 6: opportunistic and not yes that he had ended to kill. However,
Speaker 6: tell us about this, how they authorities find something that's
Speaker 6: contrary to that a list?
Speaker 7: So is this when he gets it's the appeal for
Speaker 7: the sentence or the initial sentence. I'm just trying to
Speaker 7: remember the.
Speaker 6: Well, what I'm talking about is that he provides that
Speaker 6: someone provides a long list of the sexual fantasies with
Speaker 6: where he mentioned abducting underage girls.
Speaker 5: Yep, that's right.
Speaker 7: So he basically had had talked about that and it
Speaker 7: was in I think an offender. So he's in jail,
Speaker 7: he's attending he's attending something called a custody based intensive
Speaker 7: treatment program, which when people undergo that, I guess it
Speaker 7: goes more favor favorably in there. You know, it's more
Speaker 7: favorable to them when they want to go for parole.
Speaker 7: And he basically admitted.
Speaker 5: In that.
Speaker 7: In that that his offenses were not opportunistic, as he'd
Speaker 7: said at the time of his arrest. So he'd revealed
Speaker 7: during these these this program that he'd actually had, as
Speaker 7: you said, a long history of these kind of fantasies
Speaker 7: with a violent scene underage girls, and he had he knew,
Speaker 7: he knew Debbie, he'd seen her around.
Speaker 5: And he had thought of abducting her.
Speaker 7: So it shows the premeditation there, not that he just
Speaker 7: strolled into the house, you know, just on a whim
Speaker 7: and was disturbed by her, you know, while he was
Speaker 7: trying to rob something.
Speaker 6: Certainly, Now, again, the most horrifying part of these stories,
Speaker 6: I think is the judge thought, despite all of this,
Speaker 6: that this guy should be eligible for parole. Yes, yet
Speaker 6: I have to see about this well, the.
Speaker 5: Public did not like it and does not like it because.
Speaker 7: He is eligible to apply for parole again next year.
Speaker 7: So you know, one of the justices in the appeal
Speaker 7: said that, you know, because his family has stood by
Speaker 7: him and they believe that we continued counseling and his
Speaker 7: family support, his mother still around, his father had died,
Speaker 7: that he could possibly establish a laura abiding.
Speaker 5: Lifestyle in the community.
Speaker 7: Yeah, I'm not sure about that, but basically, yes, this
Speaker 7: has not gone down well. And I think the most
Speaker 7: horrifying thing is every time this comes up for Debbie's family,
Speaker 7: it re reopens the wounds. So what as well as
Speaker 7: public outrage with people like calling in talkback radio, some
Speaker 7: people have actually also started petitions, so you know, online petitions.
Speaker 5: Are very popular now.
Speaker 7: So last year a woman started a petition to lobby
Speaker 7: for his parole to be denied. Lots and lots of people,
Speaker 7: hundreds of people have signed it, and you know, people
Speaker 7: you know leave messages about how the crimes impacted them,
Speaker 7: and basically the thoughts.
Speaker 5: The thoughts are that you know, he's a.
Speaker 7: Monster, you need to keep him behind bars. So look,
Speaker 7: he is actually yeah, he's up for parole next year.
Speaker 7: Whether or not he gets it is another story, but
Speaker 7: I guess it's his legal right to do that. But yes,
Speaker 7: there are questions about whether whether you'd really want him
Speaker 7: living in your street or not if he gets out.
Speaker 6: It's incredible to me that the parole board ignores the public,
Speaker 6: ignores the family's intentions, and then seems to compartmentalize the
Speaker 6: behavior of this killer and confine it only to the
Speaker 6: behavior in prison in a controlled setting. With these so
Speaker 6: called rehabilitative programs. Now, I believe in rehabilitation, I just
Speaker 6: don't believe in rehabilitation for these people at all whatsoever.
Speaker 6: And the horror of a family and friends having to
Speaker 6: make an online campaign every two years, like they do
Speaker 6: in Canada, the same thing we have. Again, it's thank
Speaker 6: god it's popular, but again it takes this incredible effort
Speaker 6: to get these people which are unlikely to get parole.
Speaker 6: And there are high profile cases in Canada like Paul
Speaker 6: Bernardo and Robert Pickton will never get out and there
Speaker 6: would be an incredible outrage if they were ever considered
Speaker 6: to be out. But despite that, there is still slim possibility.
Speaker 6: And that's why it is so good to have a
Speaker 6: provision of parole, of a life sentence without the possibility
Speaker 6: of parole, and all these stories illustrate that and demonstrate.
Speaker 7: That so right, And you really, I mean for Debbie's family,
Speaker 7: you know, her sisters are adults, have grown up without
Speaker 7: their sister. I mean, I can't I've got two children myself.
Speaker 7: I can't even imagine what it would like.
Speaker 5: To be lived through this.
Speaker 7: But I you know, I do believe in rehabilitation as well,
Speaker 7: but in certain cases like this, you've got a question,
Speaker 7: you know, would you be able to not act out
Speaker 7: on your fantasies or you know, the fact that you've
Speaker 7: killed a child before?
Speaker 5: I mean, how can.
Speaker 7: You really be let out in society?
Speaker 5: That would be my question.
Speaker 6: No, there's no I see no need, in no demand
Speaker 6: to risk even if it's a slim risk, a statistically
Speaker 6: small risk, regardless, and put the family through anything more
Speaker 6: than a murder and a court case. And in some
Speaker 6: of these cases, the victims' families have to go pursue
Speaker 6: and hound the courts and then hear again a quarter
Speaker 6: appointed defense lawyer lie for their client. I know they're
Speaker 6: just doing their job, but lie for their client in
Speaker 6: again the most outrageous offensive ways to denying what this
Speaker 6: perpetrator has already omitted.
Speaker 7: Incredible, that's right, And you know you've got to think
Speaker 7: of when if indeed, you know, they've got great family support,
Speaker 7: and I'm sure that does go a long way for
Speaker 7: offenders and they come out to rehabilitate. But what happens
Speaker 7: when the parents aren't around, you know they've died because
Speaker 7: they're elderly. These people are, you know, left without support.
Speaker 7: I just don't really see without absolute scrutiny and supervision,
Speaker 7: you could really prevent them from doing something. I don't
Speaker 7: know this this case, Debbie's case is just so horrible
Speaker 7: and that's what I included in the book because it
Speaker 7: just seems outrageous to me that you know, he is
Speaker 7: eligible for parole.
Speaker 5: And it did.
Speaker 7: It really really hurt that community. They were already hurting
Speaker 7: from the previous murder of Anita Cobby. It shocked them
Speaker 7: and they were they were the spotlight was put on
Speaker 7: them as a community and they're really just you know,
Speaker 7: pretty pretty down to earth people, you know, working class
Speaker 7: people looking out for the community, and it really I
Speaker 7: guess it really shocked them that this could happen.
Speaker 6: Well, I think the best supervision is you know, an
Speaker 6: eight by ten cage and that's guaranteed that they're being
Speaker 6: monitored and supervised forever. I want to thank you Emily
Speaker 6: for coming on and talking about this latest suburban nightmare
Speaker 6: Australian True Crime Stories for those that might want to
Speaker 6: find out a little bit more about your work, or
Speaker 6: do you have a website and do you do Facebook?
Speaker 6: Let us help I do. Let's I will.
Speaker 7: I'd love to let you know I have a Facebook
Speaker 7: page called Emily web Books, so.
Speaker 5: You can look that up.
Speaker 7: I have a website called Emily web Crime which just
Speaker 7: details the stuff I've done, and for North American listeners,
Speaker 7: the book is available on ebook. It's not available in
Speaker 7: hard copy unless you want to order it and pay
Speaker 7: the postage. But it's just had its print run in Australia.
Speaker 7: But it's certainly available by ebook, and I do have
Speaker 7: a lot of readers overseas who get the books that way,
Speaker 7: so I'd really love to get some feedback if you
Speaker 7: want to talk to me about anything. But yeah, if
Speaker 7: you go over and light my page, that'd be great.
Speaker 7: I also have a blog that I've been doing for
Speaker 7: a number of youths called True Crime Reader.
Speaker 5: I just review true.
Speaker 7: Crime books and there's a Facebook page for that, so
Speaker 7: that's that's another avenue to contact me.
Speaker 6: Well, thank you very much, Emily. It has been an
Speaker 6: absolute pleasure talking about Suburban Nightmare. I know I will
Speaker 6: be speaking to you again fairly soon. Thank you very
Speaker 6: much for this, and.
Speaker 5: Good night, Thanks jan good night, good night.
Speaker 6: Do you like true crime or mystery podcasts, movies and
Speaker 6: TV shows? Well, let me recommend a podcast I love
Speaker 6: called Unsolved murders true crime stories with the help of
Speaker 6: an ensemble cast of voice actors. Follow hosts Wendy and
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Speaker 6: real crime scenes an attempt to solve the case. Listen
Speaker 6: now on your favorite podcast directory, or by visiting Parkast
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Speaker 6: c A s T dot com slash unsolved. Goodnight, m