Speaker 1: Hey, ologites, Hi, Ali Ward in your space. Hi, it's
Speaker 1: me so herbs. Let's talk about it. Herpetology, what is it? Okay?
Speaker 1: It's the study of amphibians like newts and salamanders and
Speaker 1: all all froggies and toads and reptiles like tortoises and
Speaker 1: turtles and crocodiles. Also snakes. What huh. Don't worry about them.
Speaker 1: Don't worry about it. Okay, listen. If you're afraid of
Speaker 1: the S word, we will address that. We will soothe
Speaker 1: your fears for real. But herpetology, generally, it's a lot
Speaker 1: of different animals, And technically it's the study of poikilothermic
Speaker 1: ectothermic tetrapods. What are those words? Are they words? Yes? Okay,
Speaker 1: I had to look it up, but I'm going to
Speaker 1: break it down. Poikilothermic means an animal whose internal temperature
Speaker 1: varies considerably. Exothermic is when the regulation of your hot
Speaker 1: bod depends on external sources like sunlight or a heated
Speaker 1: rock surface. Now, a tetrapod means four legged, although I
Speaker 1: think of a toad and tell me, tell me those
Speaker 1: front two aren't arms like toads have hands, right, just
Speaker 1: a side note. We have since done a whole Somologies
Speaker 1: episode on toads called Boofology, as well as one about
Speaker 1: body heat called Thermophysiology, and those are both kids safe
Speaker 1: and linked in the show notes. Also, if this is
Speaker 1: your first ever Ologies episode, Somologies are shorter, kid friendly
Speaker 1: versions of full length episodes, so if you are not
Speaker 1: in need of a g rated version, the full length
Speaker 1: version is linked below. Okay, so herpetology. Now, herpetology comes
Speaker 1: from the Greek hair pain, same word to creep. But
Speaker 1: once you understand the splendor of green and scaly critters,
Speaker 1: you'll be like, oh man, I too want a reptile
Speaker 1: condo in my home. Okay, onto theologist. So. I was
Speaker 1: a fan of this doctor on the website Twitter dot
Speaker 1: com for a while. I always respected his really swift,
Speaker 1: kind of somewhat gruff identifications of snakes from these like
Speaker 1: blurry probably mid running away photos that people would send him,
Speaker 1: and I thought, one day, I want to hang out
Speaker 1: with this person. I want to ask about his love
Speaker 1: of snacks and herbs. It's one of my favorite interviews ever.
Speaker 1: I love it. We address turtles, snake ideas, the fear
Speaker 1: of snakes, frog storms, it's great, So get ready to
Speaker 1: let herbs into your heart with polyologist and herpetologist, Doctor
Speaker 1: David Skeen. What kind of ologists do you identify with,
Speaker 1: Like a necologist, a wildlife biology herpetologist. What do you
Speaker 1: call yourself?
Speaker 2: It depends on who I'm talking to. In general, I
Speaker 2: like to think of myself as a wildlife ecologist and
Speaker 2: conservation biologist. So I study how wildlife interact with other
Speaker 2: species and their surroundings. But most of the work that
Speaker 2: I do relates to amphibians and reptiles, and that's where
Speaker 2: the herpetology comes in.
Speaker 1: So are you a herpetologist?
Speaker 2: Yeah, we can go with that. Okay, Yeah, I study
Speaker 2: amphibians and reptiles, so yeah, I think it would be
Speaker 2: accurate to call me a herpetologists.
Speaker 1: I became aware of you on Twitter because you're like
Speaker 1: fire when it comes to snake ideas, Like someone will
Speaker 1: send you the sasquatch equivalent of like it looks like
Speaker 1: a rope from half of football field away and you're like, oh,
Speaker 1: that's a copperheaded Like how do you know? How did
Speaker 1: you get so good at that?
Speaker 2: Well? I like to think that it's kind of like
Speaker 2: how you recognize friends and family. You're not necessarily It's
Speaker 2: true though, you're not necessarily looking at the length of
Speaker 2: someone's mustache or the color of their eyebrows. You're you
Speaker 2: just recognize them, and I think that is how I
Speaker 2: see the snakes, So you don't necessarily have to Well,
Speaker 2: I don't necessarily have to look at for those really
Speaker 2: specific features. It's just an overall feel.
Speaker 1: If someone's like, who's this, and you're like, that's Aunt Janet,
Speaker 1: it's just boom.
Speaker 2: That's exactly right.
Speaker 1: Well, why are people so freaked out by snakes, reptiles, amphibians.
Speaker 1: I personally, I'm down with them. I'm totally fine with them,
Speaker 1: but why are some people freaked out with them? Like?
Speaker 1: Have you found.
Speaker 2: Yeah, we don't have the answer for that, but it's
Speaker 2: definitely the case, Believe it or not. You're not the
Speaker 2: first person to tell me that you know somebody that's
Speaker 2: scared of snake.
Speaker 1: You're not shocking, right.
Speaker 2: Yeah, it is really common. And there are some folks
Speaker 2: that point to research that say babies have this innate
Speaker 2: ability to recognize snakes, and that suggests that we have
Speaker 2: this we're born with this fear. And I'm not entirely
Speaker 2: convinced of those arguments. I think that we may have
Speaker 2: this inatebility to recognize snakes and react to them, but
Speaker 2: society helps push that initial reaction into fear. Ask anybody
Speaker 2: that does educational shows with snakes, and you could see
Speaker 2: the kids running up. They want to touch it, they
Speaker 2: want to feel it, they want to ask questions about it,
Speaker 2: and in the back of the room their parents are
Speaker 2: really scared. And then eventually the kids see the parents
Speaker 2: and they get scared too. So I think it's largely
Speaker 2: society that influences something biological in us.
Speaker 1: Maybe it's biblical lore. Maybe it's just like, oh, yeah,
Speaker 1: I've heard of these guys. They're troublemakers. Man. For you
Speaker 1: know what, I'm going to have to put on underpants.
Speaker 1: It's just going to be a downward spiral. Do you
Speaker 1: do you have a favorite animal?
Speaker 2: There's something about Eastern diamondback round snakes, which are just
Speaker 2: really impressive. They're just they're the largest round snake in
Speaker 2: the world. They're only found in the southeastern United States,
Speaker 2: and they just have this quiet power and dignity about it.
Speaker 1: So it's so dignity. Are there any just snakes or
Speaker 1: just clowns? Uh?
Speaker 2: So I guess I would think of the hog no snake,
Speaker 2: and it has all these strategies for not getting eaten. Basically,
Speaker 2: it's going to play dead, it's going to puke up
Speaker 2: its last meal, and you, if you tried to catch it, I'm.
Speaker 1: Not hungry anymore.
Speaker 2: These are all great strategies for not getting eaten, but
Speaker 2: they do kind of make them seem a little silly.
Speaker 1: So hognose snake down to clown.
Speaker 2: Good to know that's right.
Speaker 1: So did you always want to do this or at
Speaker 1: what point did you decide I'm going to be a
Speaker 1: scientist who studies wildlife or did it kind of evolve
Speaker 1: where all of a sudden you were like, oh who
Speaker 1: I looked up and here I am. I guess I'm
Speaker 1: doing this.
Speaker 2: I've always been interested in creatures, and if you had
Speaker 2: asked me in second grade what I wanted to be
Speaker 2: when I grew up, I'd say a naturalist. Didn't really
Speaker 2: know what that meant, but I liked nature, So naturalis
Speaker 2: sounded good.
Speaker 1: Do you have any favorite movies or television shows or
Speaker 1: least favorite ones about reptiles and amphibians where you're like
Speaker 1: they got it wrong or you're like you know what
Speaker 1: you nailed it. So this was an early interview when
Speaker 1: I would ask questions and then before they guess would
Speaker 1: have the chance to answer, I would ask another question.
Speaker 1: I'm sorry, what about the scene where it rains frogs
Speaker 1: in Magnolia? Were you like that would never happen?
Speaker 2: So what has happened?
Speaker 1: Oh, it did happen?
Speaker 2: That has happened before? What yep?
Speaker 1: So tell me everything.
Speaker 2: Many frogs are breeding in these shallow temporary wetlands, and
Speaker 2: if a big storm comes through, it could suck up
Speaker 2: that moisture and frogs in the process. What sure, I
Speaker 2: mean you can imagine a tornado doing it, so maybe
Speaker 2: it'll be a step down from that.
Speaker 1: So it's like a shark nado, but a rainstorm of frogs.
Speaker 2: It's exactly like a frog nado.
Speaker 1: First off, frog storms are indeed a thing, as are
Speaker 1: fish storms, spider storms, toad storms, and worm storms. They
Speaker 1: think maybe a tornado like water spout sucks them up
Speaker 1: and carries them and then rains them back down. Now,
Speaker 1: according to the Wikipedia page entry entitled rain of Animals quote,
Speaker 1: several witnesses of raining frogs describe the animals as startled
Speaker 1: but healthy and exhibiting relatively normal behavior shortly after the event.
Speaker 2: These are kind of the thing things of legend, but
Speaker 2: there are reliable accounts of them.
Speaker 1: So we have a lightning round of listener questions. But
Speaker 1: before we get to them, we're going to toss a
Speaker 1: donation to a great organization, the Alongside Wildlife Foundation, which
Speaker 1: through grassroots fundraising, pursues science based solutions for living alongside
Speaker 1: wildlife in perpetuity via their research and outreach and land acquisition.
Speaker 1: So it was also founded by a guy named doctor
Speaker 1: David Stein, who is our guest. So a donation will
Speaker 1: go to Alongside Wildlifefoundation dot org to sponsors of the show. Okay,
Speaker 1: your questions, Alex in Trony wants to know are snakes
Speaker 1: just getting a bad wrap I either Garden of Eden
Speaker 1: or are they really a bunch of sneaky troublemakers?
Speaker 2: So snakes are really hard to find. They're always hiding.
Speaker 2: But I don't really think of them as sneaky. I
Speaker 2: think of them as scared. I mean, they do not
Speaker 2: want to be found. So that's how I'd probably put
Speaker 2: a spin on that.
Speaker 1: Oh, so they're just defensive exactly alone.
Speaker 2: They don't want to Yeah, they don't want to sneak
Speaker 2: up on you. They do not want to be seen
Speaker 2: by you.
Speaker 1: Okay, snakes not sneaky.
Speaker 2: Cool, you heard it here first, Late.
Speaker 1: Night Pie wants to know what allows amphibians to live
Speaker 1: in a hybrid environment of water slash land. Do they
Speaker 1: breathe air or water? And also if you had to
Speaker 1: kiss a frog, what kind would you pick?
Speaker 2: Yeah, that covers a lot of territory there, it really does.
Speaker 2: So Amphibians are a really diverse group. But the classic
Speaker 2: example is the frog that lives on land. It goes
Speaker 2: in water, lays its eggs, then it's a tadpole, then
Speaker 2: it turns into a frog, and that's the classic amphibian
Speaker 2: life cycle. But there's a lot of exceptions. There's a
Speaker 2: lot of salamanders that never leave the water. Some frogs
Speaker 2: lay their eggs on leaves and they drop into the water,
Speaker 2: so lots of different strategies. Many have gills and that
Speaker 2: helps them breathe in the water. They also have semi
Speaker 2: permeable skin which helps them do some respiration through that,
Speaker 2: and others have lungs and some have both over the
Speaker 2: course of their life.
Speaker 1: One type of herb is a salamander called an axe
Speaker 1: a lotl which has really external gills. It lives exclusively
Speaker 1: in a few lakes in Mexico, and it retains these
Speaker 1: baby characteristics, like these external gills, which look so much
Speaker 1: like one of Char's fantastic feather fan headdresses from the eighties.
Speaker 2: So they're one of the unique examples that they never
Speaker 2: really grow up with. The technical term is paedomorph and
Speaker 2: they retain their juvenile characteristics, in this case on a
Speaker 2: quantic lifestyle on gills for their whole life.
Speaker 1: What about if you had to kiss a frog, what
Speaker 1: kind would you pick?
Speaker 2: I don't know how to get consent from a frog,
Speaker 2: so I'm just gonna let it go on its way.
Speaker 1: Good answer. Nicholas Smith wants to know what was the
Speaker 1: last snake to have legs.
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's a pretty cool question because the general idea
Speaker 2: is that they all used to be lizards and then
Speaker 2: a group of animals kind of branched off, lost their
Speaker 2: legs and became snakes. So when does one of these
Speaker 2: animals stop being a lizard and start being a snake.
Speaker 2: That's kind of hard to say, but we do have
Speaker 2: fossils to look at. Some snakes today still have these
Speaker 2: little remnants of legs, like the BoA's and the pythons. Yeah,
Speaker 2: they have these little vestigial limbs on the back. They
Speaker 2: got nubbins, They got nub and legs. Yep.
Speaker 1: What can you go there tickle their little mubbins?
Speaker 2: You could, yeah, as a matter of fact. And it's
Speaker 2: you know, there's lizards that don't have legs, and there's
Speaker 2: those snakes that have the little nubbins. So you know,
Speaker 2: nature's really messy.
Speaker 1: I did not know that. That's pretty exciting. I'm excited, right,
Speaker 1: that's pretty dope. I had no idea. John Worster wants
Speaker 1: to know what is the coldest climate that a snake
Speaker 1: is able to live in?
Speaker 2: Yeah, snakes are pretty adaptable, and you can find them
Speaker 2: pretty far north. There's adders. It's a kind of viper
Speaker 2: in Europe. There in Scandinavia, what yep, Northern Russia. And
Speaker 2: over here in North America you can have garter snakes
Speaker 2: all the way up through Canada, not through Canada, but
Speaker 2: through much of it. And it's all about strategies. You know.
Speaker 2: The viper in Europe it's going to be underground for
Speaker 2: most of the year and then it warms up for
Speaker 2: a couple months and then gets really busy, you know,
Speaker 2: and just that brief window. Garter snakes they also have
Speaker 2: a relatively small window, but they need to find these
Speaker 2: really unique areas to spend the winter. That's why you're
Speaker 2: going to see them congregating in some areas like the
Speaker 2: snake pits and narses. These are limestone caves basically that
Speaker 2: go below the freezing level, and in the fall they're
Speaker 2: all congregating. In the spring they're all emerging, tens of
Speaker 2: thousands of snakes. Pretty cool.
Speaker 1: Bonnie Wess note, can all different snake breeds be friends?
Speaker 1: She said, we used to play in a sunny hill
Speaker 1: covered in snakes as kids, what and there would be
Speaker 1: all colors and sizes, all chillen together in the sun.
Speaker 1: She said it was like the sun was their god
Speaker 1: and the hill was church. So she asked, was there
Speaker 1: no fighting in church? Are they just cool all the time?
Speaker 2: I would have loved to see this scene. It sounds
Speaker 2: really cool. So snakes are a really diverse group. Some
Speaker 2: will eat each other, some will spend the winter together
Speaker 2: because they're limited by those unique places where they can
Speaker 2: escape the cold. So yeah, some are friends, some are food.
Speaker 2: I'm using friends, not literally, right, but they can spend
Speaker 2: time with each other, for sure.
Speaker 1: I didn't know that. I figured that they'd be like,
Speaker 1: I'm the snake on this scene, please remove yourself from
Speaker 1: my orbit.
Speaker 2: So that would be something we associate with a territorial animal,
Speaker 2: and there's really limited evidence that snakes are territorial.
Speaker 1: Oh so they're nicer than we've given them credit for.
Speaker 2: That's what I keep trying to tell everybody.
Speaker 1: Emily Georgia wants to know where does the scary noodle's
Speaker 1: body end and the tail begin? Or is it just
Speaker 1: a tail with eyes?
Speaker 2: I mean it's actually just a neck with eyes. Yeah,
Speaker 2: it's not. The tail is not a big portion of
Speaker 2: the body. It's like the last eighth.
Speaker 1: Oh, that's good to know. Jocelyn Furnace has a very
Speaker 1: important question ken Snake's fart.
Speaker 2: Who asked this question?
Speaker 1: H Jocelyn Furnace, but Jenna Erickson also wanted to know
Speaker 1: the answer.
Speaker 2: Okay, do you know about this book called No does
Speaker 2: it Fart? No?
Speaker 1: I don't.
Speaker 2: I feel like this person knows about it because it
Speaker 2: was last year or so somebody asked me if Snake's fart?
Speaker 2: And people ask that to me not infrequently, so I said, sigh,
Speaker 2: yes they do, and that started a hashtag does it Fart?
Speaker 2: And Nick Caruso and Danny Rabbe Lodi I'm sorry if
Speaker 2: I mispronounced your name, compiled all the answers and wrote
Speaker 2: a book Does it Fart? What? Yeah? And they should
Speaker 2: give me a cut after I just plugged their book.
Speaker 1: Kate Gilmour, who was our primatologist on episode two, wants
Speaker 1: to know why do some lay eggs and some give
Speaker 1: birth to live young.
Speaker 2: It's such an interesting phenomenon and it's kind of a
Speaker 2: quirk of evolution, but the general idea is that egg
Speaker 2: laying was probably the ancestral condition, that's what the animal
Speaker 2: in the beginning had, and then live birth evolved from that.
Speaker 2: But it hasn't been directly. There's they've been going back
Speaker 2: and forth. There's different kinds of egg laying and live birth,
Speaker 2: so evolution.
Speaker 1: Okay, yeah, what are the advantages of live birth?
Speaker 2: The eggs are really good because you've got this really
Speaker 2: climate controlled little spot, but the live birth, you know,
Speaker 2: they're ready to go. They're not as vulnerable to predation,
Speaker 2: so that would probably be a big benefit.
Speaker 1: They can outrun whatever.
Speaker 2: Yeah, they can start biting stuff. They're ready to go.
Speaker 1: They hit the ground biting. Good for them.
Speaker 2: Yeah, and in stable climates it might be an advantage
Speaker 2: because you don't necessarily need that enclosed space and an egg.
Speaker 1: Oh, Daniel la Veneris, I'm sorry, Daniel, I'm probably pronouncing
Speaker 1: that wrong. Who is awesome? He asks? From flattened out
Speaker 1: ribs to glide, to tail scales that look like a spider,
Speaker 1: to lure birds, and worm like appearances to feed on
Speaker 1: ant larvae. Snakes are awesome, But which is the most
Speaker 1: awesome adaptation you've seen?
Speaker 2: The most awesome adaptation is just the fact that, look,
Speaker 2: imagine you had to survive in the woods with no
Speaker 2: arms and no legs. How long would you last?
Speaker 1: Oh? Yeah, no, I'd be toast.
Speaker 2: Yeah, but all these different kinds of snakes have figured
Speaker 2: out a way to make it work. And so I
Speaker 2: think that's my answer.
Speaker 1: Just the fact that they are yeah, yeah, and.
Speaker 2: It works for them. You know, they lost their limbs,
Speaker 2: probably because it's easier to move underground, but somehow they've
Speaker 2: figured out all these amazing ways to get by, whether
Speaker 2: it's constricting their prey or this modified salima that's basically
Speaker 2: venom or things like indigo snakes, which are just grabbing
Speaker 2: other snakes and chewing their head. I mean, you do
Speaker 2: what you gotta do.
Speaker 1: Last questions, what is the best thing about your job?
Speaker 1: What just like gives you butterflies? Keeps you going? You're like,
Speaker 1: I'm so lucky. I can't believe they pay me for this.
Speaker 2: I'm really lucky to work with a great group of
Speaker 2: people that are really passionate about these animals, passionate about
Speaker 2: increased seeing our knowledge of them and making the planet
Speaker 2: a better place for them and us. And that's that's
Speaker 2: a great place to be.
Speaker 1: So your colleagues, my colleagues, really so other people are
Speaker 1: the best thing about your job. That's that's surprising. You
Speaker 1: don't normally hear people say that.
Speaker 2: Yeah, well it's true, it's true. It's it really makes
Speaker 2: things better when you're surrounded by people that are all
Speaker 2: working towards a common goal and are bright and motivated,
Speaker 2: and that's why they're there.
Speaker 1: If someone wanted to be a herpetologist or a wild
Speaker 1: life ecologist, what would you tell them to do? What
Speaker 1: would you what do you wish you could be? Like, hey, yo, little.
Speaker 2: Me, do you get experienced any way you can figure
Speaker 2: out if it's for you. Surround yourself with people that
Speaker 2: share those kinds of goals and figure out if it's
Speaker 2: for you, and a path will emerge.
Speaker 1: Thank you so much for being on.
Speaker 2: I'm honored to be here. I was really excited when
Speaker 2: I got the invitation.
Speaker 1: So smart people goofy questions because goofy ones are actually
Speaker 1: good ones. And to find out more about doctor David
Speaker 1: Stein or his nonprofit alongside Wildlife Foundation, you can see
Speaker 1: the links in the show notes. Also linked is aliwar
Speaker 1: dot com slash Smologies, which has dozens more kids safe
Speaker 1: and shorter episodes you can blaze through. Thank you Zeke
Speaker 1: red Veguez, Thomas and Mercedes Maitland of Maitland Audio and
Speaker 1: Jared Sleeper for editing those. And since we like to
Speaker 1: keep things small around here, the rest of the credits
Speaker 1: are in the show notes. But before I go, I
Speaker 1: like to give one small piece of advice, and this
Speaker 1: week it's that before you get a pet, make sure
Speaker 1: you ask a lot of questions about how much care
Speaker 1: they take, what will make them happy, how much help
Speaker 1: you'll need, and how long they live, and make sure
Speaker 1: that you're up for the commitment. And if you're not
Speaker 1: up for it, that's okay, because stuffed animals are a
Speaker 1: good option too. Okay, Bye bye, so
Speaker 2: Bugy Buggies.