Speaker 1: Talk about being behind the curveball. All my podcasts are
finally on one site, aro dot net a r r
oe dot net, seventeen different podcasts to choose from. Hello, Ero,
how are you doing today? Norman on fine?
Speaker 2: Thanks.
Speaker 1: I want to congratulate you on the Bolden cylinder. And
the reason why is because I am a music fanatic.
I love the history of music, and I blame that
on Casey Kasem and Dick Clark because but what happens
is is that with a book like yours, you're telling
me there's more to life than than top forty pop
music and country music. You need to dig a little
bit deeper. And so jazz in all honesty in the
past ten years has become my walk and way. So
to read about Buddy Bolden. I'm going, why, Norman, did
I not know this?
Speaker 2: That's great, glad to hear it.
Speaker 1: What was it like for you to go do the research?
There's no way in heck that a mystery can become
an easy research, you know, because there.
Speaker 2: Is actually so little known about Buddy Boulden. It was
a bit of a blank canvas. So obviously, yes, I researched. Uh,
you know, there's a couple of primary sources, and then
there's there's is a book that is the closest thing
to a you know, a true historical account of his life,
but so little is known. I mean, you know, this
is nobody who is alive has ever heard him play
a note. Wow, which is kind of amazing given that
he is, you know, so frequently credited as you know,
this the first jazz musician, the first, the first got
to put it all together.
Speaker 1: Yeah, and the way that he did it was blues
and rag time. And so when when I read that
inside the book, I actually went back and I thought,
I got to listen to some music around that that
particular time in history, because I want to see, you know,
how it all, you know, comes together. Because I always
look at was because I listened to a lot of
today's modern day jazz, which is funk, you know, and
that in itself could be connected to the blues or
the rag time. So I mean, that's the kind of
rooting system that you're creating here right exactly now. I
do want you to know that in my hand right
now is an Edison standard record. It is a cylinder.
What if what if mister Bold and Buddy Bold and
his music is right here on this cylinder. What I mean,
what are the chances because there are millions of these
things out here? What would happen if he hit it?
Speaker 2: Yeah, that'd be something. I mean, there were His bandmate
Willie Cornish said that they cut an Edison cillar and
cylinder in eighteen ninety eight, which that would have been
a wax cylinder in that time, and so they were
fairly perishable. And the long standing rumor was that there
was a guy named Oscar Zohn who was a grosser
in New Orleans who knew Buddy had that and parent
it was in his storage shed and his and that
set burned in the nineteen fifties. So that's you know,
there's one sort of storyline that you know, there was
a cylinder and that's what happened to it, but nobody
can substantiate that.
Speaker 1: I was gonna say, what kept Buddy from becoming bigger
than life? Because so many times a lot of us
in the music industry, Oh, we want to be discovered,
we want to be heard, we want to be seen.
But Buddy seemed to be there, but kind of behind
the vision.
Speaker 2: Well, you got you got to figure, you got to
account for the times and the place. He was bigger
than life in New Orleans, particularly among the black community
at the time he was King Bolden. You know, he
was wildly popular, but there weren't you know, recordings weren't
disseminated widely. Musicians, you know, typically were not known nationally.
They were known in there, you know, their market there
wherever they were locally, and then I guess if they toured,
you know, maybe they built more of a following. But
you know, this was the turn of the twentieth century
and all the modern technology that helps people go national
it didn't exist at that time.
Speaker 1: Please do not move. There's more with Norman Woolworth coming
up next, the name of his book, The Bolden Cylinder.
We are back with Norman Woolworth. So if you could
sit down with Louis Armstrong right now, what would you
ask him, because I mean we're talking about a guy
that picked up his trumpet because of Buddy.
Speaker 2: Yeah. Well, I mean there are quotes from Louis Armstrong
where he said, you know, I want I wanted to
play like that, and I would listen to him because
you know, I think you only heard him like once
or twice when he was like five or six years old.
But you know, I didn't know if I ever had
enough air in my lungs to you know, blow up
moren like that. And what what he said, as well
as some other contemporaries, is that Buddy was not virtuosic.
He was not like a great musician in the way
we would typically think about that. He wasn't. He didn't
read music like you know most of the orchestras of
the day. He sort of he came in the streets.
He was mostly self taught, and he just played what
he heard. And the other thing to think about is
that azz today you listen to modern jazz, it's it's
almost like an academic form in some ways. But in
the early days and the way he played, I mean,
what they all say is he played louder than everybody else,
and he played dirtier than and in those days, you know,
that was a music of sort of ecstatic release of
you know, put your troubles away while you listen to this,
and you know, just be yourself and you know, move
to the music. And that was the way audiences received him.
You know, jazz morphed into lots of other things. You know,
in succeeding decades, but in those days, that's what it was.
Speaker 1: Well, you saying that just reminded me of a conversation
that I had with Brian Culbertson recently, whose new CD
is called Day Trip, and he talked about that expression
about being in the present place of now, and that's
why he surrounded himself with so many people that understand
what jazz is. It's a lifestyle, but it's also free form.
You got to let the universe move through you. And
and so now I started doing a like like a tree,
you know, in the way of going, Okay, if this
is where Brian is today, I want to see how
he's connected to Buddy in the past.
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, exactly. And you know, I think it's tempting,
but ultimately folly to sort of draw a through line
from Buddy to you know, Lose Armstrong or Miles Davis
or whomever. You know, if he hadn't come along, somebody
else would have, you know, But he sort of had
that brief moment. And all we really know about him
is from his contemporaries who were interviewed in the nineteen
thirties and forties. Because the other thing about Buddy which
I assume you know this. But he disappeared. I mean,
he had a very short reign of five or six years,
and then he disappeared because he went insane and he
spent the last twenty five years of his life in
a sanitarium. So and nobody when he was around was
taking jazz seriously in any sort of you know, in
terms of media or whatever. It was in the nineteen
thirties and forties when people started talking to Willie Cornish
and Bunk Johnson and Kid Ory and Willie Armstrong and
and you know, they all have sort of different accounts
of who but he was and how he played, and
you're not really sure who the reliable narrators are. You know,
they were jealousies, involved in all sorts of things. So,
you know, it really is a mystery. I mean, it's
a he's a very enigmatic historical figure.
Speaker 1: Well, let me ask you this question. They always say
that led Zeppelin was the great mysterious band of all time. Now,
after reading this book and holding these stories and these paragraphs,
I got to tell you, I really think that Buddy
out does led Zeppelin.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, it's just it's really unbelievable to me.
I mean, there's been a lot written about Buddy. Most
of it's just the same stuff over and over again,
because really it's you know, there's not that much we
can actually know. Everything is based on sort of anecdotal accounts.
But it's remarkable that he is so consistently credited with
being this pioneer, and yet we have no real evidence
other than what you know, people say about them. There's
nothing we can listen to and say, oh yeah, of course, wow, wow.
Speaker 1: What did you learn from this project, because you know,
you went into it as a student and now you
are the instructor teaching us about this journey.
Speaker 2: Well, I think it's just one of the things I
took from it is how music pops up from a place.
The whole thing about you know, at rad time and
the blues, I think that's probably an oversimplification. I mean,
he would have heard those things, but he also would
have heard church music. He would have heard the military
marching bands that would come through the streets. He would
have heard trains and steamboats and you know the hooves
of the clock clop of you know, horses going through
the street, when waggon creaking, wagging wagging wheels and you
sort of wonder was he playing those things also? And
so that that's what really intrigued me was how does
music get started when when when existing forms like ragcmon
blues collide and they become something entirely new. That's really cool,
I mean, and this veriment. There's a lot of examples
of that throughout music history, you know, including you know,
how to how to rock and roll get started? You know,
the blues had a baby right all that, So that that,
I guess, I don't know if it's a learning so
much as a just something that was reinforced for me.
Speaker 1: Absolutely, you've got to come back to this show anytime
in the future, Norman. The door is always going to
be open for you.
Speaker 2: Well, thank you. This is fun. I love talking about
this though you.
Speaker 1: Pat will you be brilliant today?
Speaker 2: Okay, I's O case should be you