1 00:00:01,120 --> 00:00:04,160 Speaker 1: You're listening to the Mind Over Murder podcast. 2 00:00:06,000 --> 00:00:09,679 Speaker 2: My name is Bill Thomas. I'm a writer, consulting, producer, 3 00:00:09,720 --> 00:00:12,839 and now podcaster. I am now trying to use my 4 00:00:12,919 --> 00:00:15,800 experience as the brother of a murder victim to help 5 00:00:15,880 --> 00:00:18,600 other victims of violent crime. I'm working on a book 6 00:00:18,679 --> 00:00:21,440 on the unsolved Colonial Parkway murders and I'm the co 7 00:00:21,519 --> 00:00:24,760 administrator of the Colonial Parkway Murders Facebook group together with 8 00:00:24,839 --> 00:00:25,519 Kristin Dilly. 9 00:00:26,079 --> 00:00:29,120 Speaker 3: My name is Kristin Dilly. I'm a writer, a researcher, 10 00:00:29,320 --> 00:00:32,079 a teacher, and a victim's advocate, as well as the 11 00:00:32,119 --> 00:00:35,840 social media manager and co administrator for the Colonial Parkway 12 00:00:35,880 --> 00:00:39,079 Murders Facebook page with my partner in crime, Bill Thomas. 13 00:00:43,039 --> 00:00:45,759 Welcome to Mind Over Murderer. I'm Kristin Dilly and. 14 00:00:45,719 --> 00:00:46,640 Speaker 4: I'm Bill Thomas. 15 00:00:47,759 --> 00:00:52,880 Speaker 3: We're here today to talk about American Detective with Joe Kenda, 16 00:00:53,320 --> 00:00:57,240 The Homicide Hunter. Bill re you familiar with Joe Kenda 17 00:00:57,399 --> 00:01:01,079 and The Homicide Hunter. Before they decided to do a 18 00:01:01,200 --> 00:01:03,200 piece on the Colonial Parkway murders. 19 00:01:03,079 --> 00:01:05,840 Speaker 2: I'd heard quite a bit about Joe Kenda over the years. 20 00:01:06,319 --> 00:01:10,120 He had this very successful show called Homicide Hunter. If 21 00:01:10,159 --> 00:01:13,239 people are not familiar with Joe Kenda. Joe Kenda was 22 00:01:13,400 --> 00:01:18,439 a Colorado based detective and was very successful, and some 23 00:01:18,480 --> 00:01:21,239 people say he had a ninety five percent solve rate. 24 00:01:21,560 --> 00:01:24,280 Whether that's an accurate number or not, I can't say, 25 00:01:24,280 --> 00:01:29,480 but he was regarded as an extremely smart and successful detective. 26 00:01:29,920 --> 00:01:33,400 The premise of Homicide Hunter was him discussing and then 27 00:01:33,799 --> 00:01:38,200 doing recreations of cases that he had worked and solved. 28 00:01:38,560 --> 00:01:42,319 Homicide Hunter ran nearly a decade. By the end of 29 00:01:42,400 --> 00:01:45,879 the show, they had run out of cases for him 30 00:01:46,000 --> 00:01:51,159 to discuss. You and I've met Carl Marino who plays 31 00:01:51,640 --> 00:01:54,280 young Joe Kenda on Homicide Hunter. 32 00:01:54,879 --> 00:01:58,760 Speaker 3: Yes, he has been a crime con favorite. I don't 33 00:01:58,760 --> 00:02:01,200 think he was a crime con last year, but he 34 00:02:01,439 --> 00:02:04,959 absolutely was very popular every time that he showed up 35 00:02:04,959 --> 00:02:07,159 to crime Con and I actually do remember him showing 36 00:02:07,200 --> 00:02:10,759 up at Savannah Crimexpo once. So yeah, we are familiar 37 00:02:10,759 --> 00:02:15,800 with Carl Marino, who played the fictional Joe Kenda American Detective. 38 00:02:16,120 --> 00:02:20,400 Is Joe Kenda? The real Joe Kenda's documentary series covering 39 00:02:20,719 --> 00:02:23,520 various cases. We were lucky enough to have the Colonial 40 00:02:23,560 --> 00:02:27,280 Parkway murders take a front seat in the first episode 41 00:02:27,319 --> 00:02:31,080 of season five of American Detective tell us how this 42 00:02:31,319 --> 00:02:34,080 all came about. Because you and I knew this was coming. 43 00:02:34,120 --> 00:02:36,400 We weren't able to talk about it, but we knew 44 00:02:36,439 --> 00:02:39,280 this was happening. Give our listeners the backstory on when 45 00:02:39,280 --> 00:02:42,080 did you get approached by Joe Kenda's people? What was 46 00:02:42,120 --> 00:02:42,879 the shoot like for you? 47 00:02:43,319 --> 00:02:45,960 Speaker 2: I think this goes back to at least a year ago. 48 00:02:46,639 --> 00:02:50,520 The folks from Jupiter Entertainment, who or a television production 49 00:02:50,639 --> 00:02:53,879 company who work with Joe Kenda, had approached me and 50 00:02:54,080 --> 00:02:57,039 asked me if we would be interested in having them 51 00:02:57,159 --> 00:03:02,360 cover the Colonial Parkway murders. Now, Joe Kenda has moved 52 00:03:02,680 --> 00:03:07,199 back from Colorado to Virginia, where he and his family live. 53 00:03:07,599 --> 00:03:11,159 Apparently he had taken a real interest in the Colonial 54 00:03:11,240 --> 00:03:14,800 Parkway murders, and, as Joe explains on the TV show, 55 00:03:15,319 --> 00:03:18,520 he had had Danny Plott, a former Virginia State Police 56 00:03:18,520 --> 00:03:20,800 investigator whom we know very well from his work on 57 00:03:20,840 --> 00:03:25,199 the Colonial Parkway murders. Joe had had Danny's guest where 58 00:03:25,240 --> 00:03:28,560 they were telling the story of another Virginia case that 59 00:03:28,680 --> 00:03:32,199 Danny was involved in helping solve. They approached us and 60 00:03:32,280 --> 00:03:34,719 asked us about the Colonial Parkway murders. I said, I 61 00:03:34,800 --> 00:03:37,479 thought we'd be very interested. That began a back and 62 00:03:37,560 --> 00:03:41,039 forth with the producers, and I put them in touch 63 00:03:41,080 --> 00:03:44,680 with other family members. We've got some idea of who 64 00:03:44,800 --> 00:03:49,120 wanted to participate in this show American Detective. What Kenda 65 00:03:49,199 --> 00:03:53,879 is referencing is these different guests each week are typically 66 00:03:53,960 --> 00:03:59,560 former detectives themselves telling their story, and Kenda is very 67 00:03:59,599 --> 00:04:05,080 skill full narrator and sort of analyst. Now, one thing 68 00:04:05,120 --> 00:04:09,039 that's interesting is that we didn't meet Joe Kenda. Those 69 00:04:09,199 --> 00:04:12,919 segments where Joe Kenda and Dandy Plott sit at a 70 00:04:12,960 --> 00:04:15,960 table and discuss the case, those are shot at a 71 00:04:16,000 --> 00:04:19,079 different time. Even to this point, I've still never met 72 00:04:19,160 --> 00:04:23,879 Joe Kenda. A number of us were interviewed. They rented 73 00:04:23,879 --> 00:04:28,399 a big, beautiful house, almost like a mansion, in Norfolk, Virginia, 74 00:04:28,519 --> 00:04:31,040 and then they cycled through with a whole bunch of us. 75 00:04:31,120 --> 00:04:33,240 I think they might have interviewed me for gott to 76 00:04:33,279 --> 00:04:36,319 be three or four hours, just asking tons and tons 77 00:04:36,319 --> 00:04:39,399 of questions. They had a number of people, and actually 78 00:04:39,439 --> 00:04:42,639 Andy Fox was on right after me, so I didn't 79 00:04:42,680 --> 00:04:46,480 necessarily see all of the other guests. I hoped to 80 00:04:46,480 --> 00:04:49,759 meet Joe Kenda at some point the story came about 81 00:04:49,879 --> 00:04:52,279 as a result of their inquiry. It's gotta be a 82 00:04:52,360 --> 00:04:54,160 year ago. I felt like it was in the spring. 83 00:04:54,759 --> 00:04:57,040 Speaker 3: No, I think it was too and it was. I 84 00:04:57,079 --> 00:05:00,279 remember that you came down in October and did the shoot, 85 00:05:00,319 --> 00:05:02,800 and it was very very short because you were only 86 00:05:02,839 --> 00:05:04,800 here for like two days I think it was. And 87 00:05:04,839 --> 00:05:07,519 I saw you for maybe one evening because I had 88 00:05:07,519 --> 00:05:09,639 a ton of stuff going on, as I always do. 89 00:05:10,160 --> 00:05:12,319 But I remember you and I and Joyce were able 90 00:05:12,319 --> 00:05:15,120 to get together and have a quick meal and kind 91 00:05:15,120 --> 00:05:17,519 of catch up on the parkway cases we do whenever 92 00:05:17,560 --> 00:05:20,079 you're in town. You had just done your shoot for 93 00:05:20,519 --> 00:05:23,839 American Detective. I remember we were talking about whether or 94 00:05:23,839 --> 00:05:25,720 not you've had gotten to meet Joe Kenda, and I 95 00:05:25,759 --> 00:05:28,480 was like, well, that sucks you didn't get to meet 96 00:05:28,519 --> 00:05:31,399 him like that. I think would have been a pretty 97 00:05:31,399 --> 00:05:32,519 cool experience. 98 00:05:33,600 --> 00:05:34,480 Speaker 4: It is what it is. 99 00:05:34,560 --> 00:05:37,399 Speaker 2: I will say this that people from Jupiter Entertainment, the 100 00:05:37,399 --> 00:05:41,879 production company, were absolutely wonderful. They treated us really well. 101 00:05:42,480 --> 00:05:45,680 They had done a lot of homework and research, so 102 00:05:45,720 --> 00:05:48,639 they had very good questions and they were a real 103 00:05:48,720 --> 00:05:52,000 pleasure to work with. I know, as we go through 104 00:05:52,000 --> 00:05:54,959 the discussion today. We may have a couple of minor 105 00:05:55,000 --> 00:05:57,800 criticisms of the show, but I do want to emphasize 106 00:05:57,839 --> 00:06:00,680 I'm now watching the show for a second time. If 107 00:06:00,720 --> 00:06:02,800 you haven't seen it, we urge you to watch it. 108 00:06:02,959 --> 00:06:06,439 I think it's the best long form reporting on the 109 00:06:06,439 --> 00:06:09,399 Colonial Parkway murders that's been done to date. It's a 110 00:06:09,519 --> 00:06:13,920 beautifully put together show. I don't agree with every conclusion 111 00:06:14,160 --> 00:06:16,920 that Danny Plott, or Joe Kenda or any of the 112 00:06:16,959 --> 00:06:20,720 other experts make. That's okay, I don't have to agree 113 00:06:20,720 --> 00:06:24,160 with everything they say. I think it's so well done, 114 00:06:24,160 --> 00:06:27,800 and even now watching it a second time this afternoon, man, 115 00:06:27,879 --> 00:06:31,680 it's a good show and it's a good presentation of 116 00:06:31,800 --> 00:06:34,279 much of what's happened in the Colonial Parkway murders. 117 00:06:34,519 --> 00:06:35,759 Speaker 4: Could they have covered more? 118 00:06:36,040 --> 00:06:38,759 Speaker 2: Absolutely, And we'll touch on some of those points today. 119 00:06:39,240 --> 00:06:42,240 I think it's a very very well done series. 120 00:06:42,959 --> 00:06:46,839 Speaker 3: I agree entirely. You were able to watch it before 121 00:06:46,920 --> 00:06:50,720 I was able to. It came out on April first, 122 00:06:50,959 --> 00:06:53,079 and it was so funny because we had posted about 123 00:06:53,120 --> 00:06:55,600 it and somebody in the comments section on our page 124 00:06:55,680 --> 00:06:58,959 Road April Holes. We were like, no, it's no, no, really, 125 00:07:00,279 --> 00:07:03,279 it actually did drop, so you watched it before I did. 126 00:07:03,360 --> 00:07:07,160 I wasn't able to watch it until Saturday night. I 127 00:07:07,199 --> 00:07:10,319 have been on spring break this week, thank heavens. And 128 00:07:10,360 --> 00:07:13,959 it was only when my life partner and I were 129 00:07:14,040 --> 00:07:16,360 down in the Outer Banks with friends of ours that 130 00:07:16,360 --> 00:07:18,959 we were able to sit down and watch the series. 131 00:07:19,000 --> 00:07:21,079 And of course, my life partner has heard me talk 132 00:07:21,079 --> 00:07:23,439 about this so often. He just kind of sat there 133 00:07:23,480 --> 00:07:24,920 and played on his phone the whole show. 134 00:07:26,000 --> 00:07:28,600 Speaker 4: It didn't grab him the way it grabbed us. 135 00:07:29,079 --> 00:07:31,759 Speaker 3: He has heard me talk about this case so often. 136 00:07:31,800 --> 00:07:34,800 And he's not a true crime person. He I mean, 137 00:07:34,839 --> 00:07:37,360 he's just he's not. I can talk to him about 138 00:07:37,399 --> 00:07:40,759 some of this and he's like, oh okay, yeah that's interesting, 139 00:07:40,920 --> 00:07:43,600 and like he'll support me in whatever I'm doing, but 140 00:07:43,639 --> 00:07:46,360 this is definitely not something that he's interested in watching. 141 00:07:46,519 --> 00:07:49,600 So he was doom scrolling on his phone while our 142 00:07:49,639 --> 00:07:52,319 two friends and I were sitting there watching like I'm 143 00:07:52,360 --> 00:07:56,040 taking notes, you know, on a notepath. And it was 144 00:07:56,079 --> 00:07:58,839 really wonderful, and it was interesting watching it with our 145 00:07:58,920 --> 00:08:02,720 friends because they stopped during the commercial breaks and they 146 00:08:02,759 --> 00:08:04,639 were like, Okay, what did you think about that? Is 147 00:08:04,639 --> 00:08:06,279 that true? What? Are they leaving out. There's got to 148 00:08:06,279 --> 00:08:09,279 be something that they loved out right, and they were like, 149 00:08:09,319 --> 00:08:11,560 what information do you have that you're not telling us? 150 00:08:12,639 --> 00:08:14,720 So that was actually a lot of fun to watch 151 00:08:14,800 --> 00:08:17,720 with people who know that I have more information than 152 00:08:17,759 --> 00:08:20,560 they're able to put up on the screen. That was fun. 153 00:08:20,959 --> 00:08:22,839 But I sat there and I took pages of notes 154 00:08:22,839 --> 00:08:24,720 and I thought, you set off air. A couple of 155 00:08:24,759 --> 00:08:26,839 minutes ago. You said you felt it was very elegant, 156 00:08:26,879 --> 00:08:30,759 and I agree with you. It is beautifully beautifully shot. 157 00:08:30,800 --> 00:08:33,799 I love all the drone footage. They did a wonderful 158 00:08:33,960 --> 00:08:38,559 mix of archival footage from Andy Fox, from Wavy ten 159 00:08:38,960 --> 00:08:43,919 original crime scene photos. It's really really beautifully shot and 160 00:08:43,960 --> 00:08:47,159 beautifully put together. And we're not knocking any of the 161 00:08:47,200 --> 00:08:50,200 other presentations that have been done on the Colonial Parkway 162 00:08:50,240 --> 00:08:53,279 murders case. All of those have been very well done too. 163 00:08:53,879 --> 00:08:56,960 This one is just the most recent. I think it 164 00:08:57,200 --> 00:08:59,639 looks really wonderful. I was very pleased with the work 165 00:08:59,679 --> 00:09:02,080 that they did. I just wish that there had been 166 00:09:02,120 --> 00:09:03,039 more hours. 167 00:09:03,399 --> 00:09:07,759 Speaker 2: I know I could have easily seen another two episodes. 168 00:09:07,919 --> 00:09:10,480 That essentially was two episodes back to back, and they 169 00:09:10,480 --> 00:09:13,039 had told us they wanted to do a kickoff for 170 00:09:13,159 --> 00:09:16,799 season five, and this case that had been of great 171 00:09:16,840 --> 00:09:20,519 interest to Joe Kenda since it was moved on to 172 00:09:20,639 --> 00:09:23,960 his radar. Apparently he really took quite an interest in it. 173 00:09:24,600 --> 00:09:28,759 I thought it was extremely well done. One tremendous advantage 174 00:09:29,200 --> 00:09:32,759 that American Detective has over any of the other shows 175 00:09:32,759 --> 00:09:35,639 that have been done so far about the Colonial Parkway murders, 176 00:09:35,639 --> 00:09:38,000 and I'm dropping a hint here there will be more, 177 00:09:38,440 --> 00:09:42,080 is that one advantage is that a year ago, Alan 178 00:09:42,120 --> 00:09:45,919 Wade Wilmer Senior was identified as a suspect. And we'll 179 00:09:45,960 --> 00:09:49,759 get into more details, so they have a much stronger 180 00:09:50,000 --> 00:09:53,519 starting point because now we've identified a suspect in at 181 00:09:53,600 --> 00:09:57,320 least one of the Colonial Parkway murders, which creates an 182 00:09:57,320 --> 00:10:02,799 opportunity for interesting conversation and analysis by both Joe Kenda 183 00:10:02,840 --> 00:10:06,120 and Danny Plott, who are basically the leads in this conversation. 184 00:10:06,759 --> 00:10:09,960 Speaker 3: Four years ago, maybe it's almost five now, we did 185 00:10:10,000 --> 00:10:15,360 the Lever's Lane murders. I found myself wondering how differently 186 00:10:15,440 --> 00:10:17,960 that would have turned out if we'd had news on 187 00:10:18,080 --> 00:10:21,000 Wilmer at that point. I would have loved to be 188 00:10:21,039 --> 00:10:24,960 able to present Marine O'Connell and Laura Pettler and Jim 189 00:10:25,000 --> 00:10:28,759 Clemente with here's information about Wilmer. Now, what do you 190 00:10:28,799 --> 00:10:31,600 guys make of it? I would have loved that. I 191 00:10:31,600 --> 00:10:34,000 think that would have been interesting. And I actually hope 192 00:10:34,000 --> 00:10:36,840 that the folks at Oxygen, who may or may not 193 00:10:36,879 --> 00:10:39,440 be listening to this, but hopefully they are, will consider 194 00:10:39,559 --> 00:10:43,000 doing Lover's Lane Murders reboot now that we have this 195 00:10:43,080 --> 00:10:47,200 new information, now that we have a suspect, how about 196 00:10:47,200 --> 00:10:49,799 you go back and revisit it and do the same 197 00:10:49,840 --> 00:10:52,879 premise again and see what comes up. I do really 198 00:10:53,240 --> 00:10:54,919 enjoy the fact that they were able to get into 199 00:10:54,960 --> 00:10:58,000 Wilmer for the first time on a long form program. 200 00:10:58,240 --> 00:10:59,559 Speaker 4: I'm ready to move into questions. 201 00:11:00,000 --> 00:11:01,639 Speaker 3: One of the things that we like to do whenever 202 00:11:01,679 --> 00:11:05,440 we have a new media offering, whether it's a podcast 203 00:11:05,840 --> 00:11:09,440 or documentary, is to open up the floor for people 204 00:11:09,480 --> 00:11:13,879 to ask questions. We took all of the questions from 205 00:11:14,080 --> 00:11:17,559 our listeners Onmind of a Murder and our followers on 206 00:11:17,600 --> 00:11:20,720 the Colonial Parkway Murders Facebook page, and we compiled as 207 00:11:20,720 --> 00:11:23,799 many of them as we could into this large document. 208 00:11:24,159 --> 00:11:26,799 I'm going to be reading them. I will attribute the 209 00:11:27,320 --> 00:11:29,879 questions to the person who asked them, and then we're 210 00:11:29,919 --> 00:11:32,399 going to try to answer as many as we possibly can. 211 00:11:33,120 --> 00:11:35,919 So we'll kick off with this question from Ashley. H 212 00:11:36,279 --> 00:11:40,399 Ashley asks, have they, I'm assuming that means FBI or 213 00:11:40,480 --> 00:11:43,879 law enforcement done any kind of victim profiling where they 214 00:11:43,919 --> 00:11:47,039 try to see a connection between victims. I'm wondering if 215 00:11:47,080 --> 00:11:49,480 there is some sort of characteristic that ties them all 216 00:11:49,519 --> 00:11:52,399 together and maybe could help tie in other cases. 217 00:11:53,080 --> 00:11:57,440 Speaker 2: What's a great question, Ashley. The FBI, in particular, together 218 00:11:57,480 --> 00:12:01,639 with the Virginia Stay Police, have filed the Colonial Parkway 219 00:12:01,720 --> 00:12:04,639 murders several times. They were profiled back in the eighties. 220 00:12:05,159 --> 00:12:09,279 My understanding, and the FBI is not good about sharing 221 00:12:09,320 --> 00:12:12,200 information in a straightforward manner, so I often have to 222 00:12:12,399 --> 00:12:15,559 offer these asterisks because I can only tell you what 223 00:12:15,679 --> 00:12:19,600 I know. My understanding is that they reprofiled the case 224 00:12:19,639 --> 00:12:23,080 within the last couple of years. They have looked for 225 00:12:23,440 --> 00:12:28,279 relationships and similarities between the victims and the Colonial Parkway murders, 226 00:12:28,399 --> 00:12:32,559 and they haven't really found anything. There are some connections, 227 00:12:32,559 --> 00:12:35,320 which we'll talk about in a minute. For the most part, 228 00:12:35,759 --> 00:12:43,600 they seem like couples, cars, isolated rural locations, lovers, lane locations. 229 00:12:44,200 --> 00:12:48,639 It feels like someone approaches these hairs of people because 230 00:12:48,639 --> 00:12:52,639 they're not necessarily romantic couples, while their vehicles are stopped, 231 00:12:53,080 --> 00:12:57,399 at least initially, seems to present themselves in a way 232 00:12:57,480 --> 00:13:03,200 that appears non threatening to those couples. Now, whether that 233 00:13:03,240 --> 00:13:06,919 person is presenting as full law on law enforcement or 234 00:13:07,039 --> 00:13:11,399 rolling up behind them with bright lights on that might 235 00:13:11,480 --> 00:13:15,120 blind them. Jim Clemente has talked about this. It is 236 00:13:15,399 --> 00:13:21,799 quite possible for one well organized offender to assume control 237 00:13:22,039 --> 00:13:26,120 over a couple, particularly if there's a gun involved. We 238 00:13:26,279 --> 00:13:29,039 know for a fact that Robin Edwards and David Nobling 239 00:13:29,120 --> 00:13:32,720 were both shot to death. It's quite possible that guns 240 00:13:32,759 --> 00:13:36,200 may have been used to establish control early on in 241 00:13:36,320 --> 00:13:41,159 a number of these Colonial Parkway murders. Ashley's question about 242 00:13:41,200 --> 00:13:44,960 whether the cases have been profiled, Absolutely, yes, But I've 243 00:13:45,039 --> 00:13:49,960 never heard of anything beyond those basic parameters of the 244 00:13:50,000 --> 00:13:53,919 Colonial Parkway murders. There's no through line that we're aware of. 245 00:13:54,679 --> 00:13:57,120 Speaker 3: For all that, Bill and I regularly say that we 246 00:13:57,159 --> 00:14:01,519 are not investigators because we're not we're not profilers. Neither 247 00:14:01,519 --> 00:14:05,159 of us have had the training asking ourselves whether there 248 00:14:05,159 --> 00:14:08,840 are characteristics that tie the victims together and doing that 249 00:14:08,879 --> 00:14:12,879 sort of victimology work that a actual experience trained profiler 250 00:14:12,919 --> 00:14:15,480 would do. Bill and I just kind of do that 251 00:14:15,600 --> 00:14:19,960 amongst ourselves. We just talk and spitball ideas around each other. 252 00:14:20,519 --> 00:14:23,399 One of the many commonalities that we have found that 253 00:14:23,559 --> 00:14:27,559 may or may not actually lead to something later is 254 00:14:27,600 --> 00:14:29,960 the fact that we did have several victims that we're 255 00:14:30,039 --> 00:14:34,240 all related to liberty security in some way or another, 256 00:14:34,360 --> 00:14:37,720 and run little when we're sitting and talking about the case, 257 00:14:37,720 --> 00:14:41,240 which is something that we just do because this is 258 00:14:41,320 --> 00:14:44,000 such a big part of our lives. We are doing 259 00:14:44,039 --> 00:14:47,799 a certain amount of that victimology ourselves. But because we're 260 00:14:47,840 --> 00:14:51,519 not law enforcement, we're not investigators, that's not being taken 261 00:14:51,519 --> 00:14:54,639 into account by anybody. We do ask that of ourselves, 262 00:14:54,679 --> 00:14:57,840 and in the dark of night when I'm thinking about 263 00:14:57,919 --> 00:15:00,360 this case, I write things down in my own books 264 00:15:00,399 --> 00:15:03,159 and start thinking to myself, what else you might be 265 00:15:03,200 --> 00:15:06,639 connecting these victims together. It's an excellent question, Ashley. The 266 00:15:06,679 --> 00:15:11,879 next question comes from Debbie Debi C. She is asking 267 00:15:12,080 --> 00:15:15,440 about Kathy and Becky's murder. This is a question that 268 00:15:15,519 --> 00:15:18,120 a number of people had, so it's Debbie and many 269 00:15:18,159 --> 00:15:21,879 others who wanted to know the sixty four thousand dollars question. 270 00:15:22,440 --> 00:15:26,639 Was there DNA on the piece of nautical line or 271 00:15:26,720 --> 00:15:31,639 nautical rope that was found behind Kathy's hair after she 272 00:15:31,840 --> 00:15:34,919 was taken to autopsy. Do we have any report on 273 00:15:34,960 --> 00:15:36,759 whether or not there was DNA found, Bill. 274 00:15:36,919 --> 00:15:39,879 Speaker 2: I've discussed it with the FBI. They were trying to 275 00:15:40,000 --> 00:15:43,919 extract DNA. The piece of rope, which has often been 276 00:15:43,919 --> 00:15:47,600 described as nautical rope, was also soaked in Kathy's blood, 277 00:15:48,120 --> 00:15:52,919 so it is a complicated situation. To my knowledge, we've 278 00:15:53,000 --> 00:15:57,360 never been able to extract anyone else's DNA from this 279 00:15:57,480 --> 00:15:59,960 piece of rope. They believe that the rope was used 280 00:16:00,039 --> 00:16:04,440 us to strangle Kathy and Becky, and that the offender 281 00:16:04,720 --> 00:16:07,000 likely cut the ends of the rope. It's an odd 282 00:16:07,039 --> 00:16:11,440 thing to leave behind. I've seen the rope in the 283 00:16:12,039 --> 00:16:16,039 crime scene pictures and actually the way it was presented 284 00:16:16,240 --> 00:16:19,519 on the television series, which is a mix of actual 285 00:16:19,600 --> 00:16:21,879 crime scene photos. And by the way, if you watch 286 00:16:21,960 --> 00:16:24,919 the show that when they use actual crime scene photos, 287 00:16:24,960 --> 00:16:28,960 it says actual crime scene photo on the screen. Those 288 00:16:29,000 --> 00:16:32,799 are mixed in with some recreations, some of which made 289 00:16:32,879 --> 00:16:35,519 me shudder a bit, but I understand they're trying to 290 00:16:35,799 --> 00:16:39,879 convey to those of us as viewers what has happened. 291 00:16:40,399 --> 00:16:44,360 The rope, it appears, was cut at both ends and 292 00:16:44,559 --> 00:16:48,320 left behind by the killer. To my knowledge, they've never 293 00:16:48,360 --> 00:16:52,360 been able to extract DNA. Obviously, they could have extracted 294 00:16:52,480 --> 00:16:56,320 Kathy's DNA from the blood that had soaked into the rope, 295 00:16:56,360 --> 00:16:59,200 but I don't think they've ever managed to extract anyone 296 00:16:59,320 --> 00:17:00,080 else's dm. 297 00:17:00,720 --> 00:17:03,200 Speaker 3: I feel like this might be one of those times 298 00:17:03,360 --> 00:17:07,039 where they could try using the MVAC on it. I 299 00:17:07,160 --> 00:17:11,599 don't know if Jared Bradley's wonder machine would actually have 300 00:17:11,720 --> 00:17:14,559 the ability to do what I'm hoping that it will do, 301 00:17:14,720 --> 00:17:19,000 which is extract separate DNA profiles from a piece of 302 00:17:19,079 --> 00:17:22,839 rope that's saturated in blood. But I'm wondering if that's possible. 303 00:17:23,319 --> 00:17:25,799 Maybe that's a question we asked Jared Bradley. They keep 304 00:17:25,799 --> 00:17:28,640 in mind, too, that all of the evidence in this 305 00:17:28,759 --> 00:17:31,880 case related to Kathy and Becky and Keith and Cassandra 306 00:17:32,079 --> 00:17:34,839 is controlled by the FBI, And as much as we 307 00:17:34,920 --> 00:17:37,480 want them to do the things that we want, which 308 00:17:37,519 --> 00:17:40,519 is namely test at all, they have control of the evidence. 309 00:17:41,359 --> 00:17:45,359 There is no amount of coercion is not the right word. 310 00:17:45,680 --> 00:17:48,119 There is no amount of persuading that we can do 311 00:17:48,480 --> 00:17:51,440 to convince them to turn it over to an outside lab. 312 00:17:51,680 --> 00:17:54,640 There are many people who express frustration with that in 313 00:17:54,680 --> 00:17:58,240 the comments on our social media pages, and we feel you, 314 00:17:58,680 --> 00:18:01,720 But unfortunately we can can't make the FBI do anything 315 00:18:01,759 --> 00:18:04,599 they don't want to do, or can't do, or don't 316 00:18:04,599 --> 00:18:07,839 have the time for. And unfortunately that's kind of where 317 00:18:07,880 --> 00:18:10,519 we stand with some of the DNA testing there. They 318 00:18:10,519 --> 00:18:12,480 have the evidence and there's no way of getting that 319 00:18:12,559 --> 00:18:13,319 away from them. 320 00:18:14,000 --> 00:18:18,480 Speaker 2: FBI does have an MBACK machine. We've talked to Jared 321 00:18:18,519 --> 00:18:22,400 Bradley from mback about that. They've actually had a machine 322 00:18:22,400 --> 00:18:24,440 for a number of years, and he actually brought the 323 00:18:24,519 --> 00:18:30,480 latest version of the DNA extraction device. It's, as he 324 00:18:30,559 --> 00:18:35,079 describes it, it's kind of a medical grade vacuum cleaner. Yeah, 325 00:18:35,880 --> 00:18:40,119 but they have solved a number of cases using the 326 00:18:40,319 --> 00:18:43,319 m BACK and law enforcement around the country, including the FBI, 327 00:18:43,480 --> 00:18:47,279 do use it. So I think that's a possibility, but again, 328 00:18:47,480 --> 00:18:50,200 getting a straight answer from the FBI about what's been 329 00:18:50,279 --> 00:18:53,559 done and what hasn't been done. I do distinctly remember 330 00:18:53,599 --> 00:18:57,079 discussing with our case agent that they were attempting several 331 00:18:57,160 --> 00:19:01,240 years ago to extract offender DNA from the rope. To 332 00:19:01,400 --> 00:19:04,440 my knowledge, they have not been able to find any 333 00:19:04,559 --> 00:19:07,000 offender DNA on that rope sample. 334 00:19:07,480 --> 00:19:10,400 Speaker 3: Before we get away from Kathy and Decky's case and 335 00:19:10,440 --> 00:19:13,599 move on to another question, I did want to jump 336 00:19:13,680 --> 00:19:16,039 to something that you had said a moment ago, Bill, 337 00:19:16,200 --> 00:19:19,680 and it really concerns the reenactments. You watched them do 338 00:19:19,720 --> 00:19:22,480 the Lover's Lane murders. You watch them do reenactments, then 339 00:19:22,599 --> 00:19:24,680 I know you weren't able to see the reenactments for 340 00:19:24,759 --> 00:19:29,319 this one. Does it bother you essentially seeing these reenactments? 341 00:19:29,480 --> 00:19:32,160 I can't see how it wouldn't. Does it bother you 342 00:19:32,200 --> 00:19:32,960 watching this stuff? 343 00:19:33,079 --> 00:19:35,839 Speaker 2: Yeah? I don't like them. I actually will be honest. 344 00:19:35,960 --> 00:19:39,599 I don't like reenactments on cases that don't have anything 345 00:19:39,640 --> 00:19:43,279 to do with my sister. We're watching the Long Island 346 00:19:43,359 --> 00:19:46,960 serial Killer series right now, which is very very well done. 347 00:19:47,240 --> 00:19:51,599 Gone Girls. They've got some recreations. They're not terribly graphic. 348 00:19:52,160 --> 00:19:55,039 Over the years, I think I've seen some stuff that 349 00:19:55,319 --> 00:20:00,240 is very difficult to watch. It's hard to watch the 350 00:20:00,240 --> 00:20:03,200 recreations of the Colonial Parkway murders. You and I were 351 00:20:03,240 --> 00:20:06,480 actually on set when they were shooting the Lover's Lane murders, 352 00:20:06,519 --> 00:20:10,240 and you know, I had this very disconcerting experience of 353 00:20:10,519 --> 00:20:14,519 meeting a woman, a young actor with long red hair, 354 00:20:14,720 --> 00:20:18,960 who was playing my sister in these recreations, and you know, 355 00:20:19,039 --> 00:20:22,400 we sat down and had a brief meal together before 356 00:20:22,559 --> 00:20:28,359 the next segment, and it's it's disturbing, it's not fun. 357 00:20:28,839 --> 00:20:32,079 Speaker 3: I've never loved it for that reason, because I can't 358 00:20:32,079 --> 00:20:35,279 imagine that anybody who is the family member or friend 359 00:20:35,279 --> 00:20:38,839 of a murder victim would enjoy watching that recreated. I 360 00:20:38,880 --> 00:20:42,240 think they did about as tasteful a job as you can, 361 00:20:42,680 --> 00:20:45,200 although there was one or two shots that kind of 362 00:20:45,200 --> 00:20:48,279 made me shutterer when they showed sort of the neck 363 00:20:48,319 --> 00:20:51,039 wound on the woman playing Kathy and the woman playing Becky. 364 00:20:51,559 --> 00:20:53,759 The one thing that I did note, and this is 365 00:20:53,799 --> 00:20:58,319 where I think our friends enjoyed watching with me, because 366 00:20:58,839 --> 00:21:03,039 I spotted in a inaccuracy during one of those re enactments, 367 00:21:03,200 --> 00:21:05,640 and I kind of, I don't know, yelled a little bit. 368 00:21:06,680 --> 00:21:10,079 I was like, wait, that's not right, and so they 369 00:21:10,079 --> 00:21:12,079 had to wait till a commercial break and they were like, wait, 370 00:21:12,119 --> 00:21:16,319 what wasn't right? In the recreation of the finding of 371 00:21:16,400 --> 00:21:20,400 Kathy and Becky's crime scene Kathy's car, it shows the 372 00:21:20,400 --> 00:21:25,359 police officer actually opening up the hatchback to find Kathy inside. 373 00:21:25,920 --> 00:21:29,079 That is not accurate. They actually smashed the back wind 374 00:21:29,160 --> 00:21:32,680 screen rather than raising the hatchback. And actually, if you 375 00:21:32,720 --> 00:21:35,319 look at those crime scene photos that they did show, 376 00:21:35,559 --> 00:21:38,359 there's one of Kathy crumpled up in the back of 377 00:21:38,400 --> 00:21:40,440 the car, and you can see that she's covered in 378 00:21:40,480 --> 00:21:44,119 broken glass from that smashed wind screen. I think that's 379 00:21:44,160 --> 00:21:46,319 something that only those of us who were really deeply 380 00:21:46,359 --> 00:21:49,200 into the case would be able to catch. But that 381 00:21:49,359 --> 00:21:51,480 is one thing that I noticed right off, like, oh, 382 00:21:51,640 --> 00:21:54,720 they didn't show them smashing the back windshield, and so 383 00:21:54,799 --> 00:21:57,319 that was one thing that immediately sort of went down 384 00:21:57,319 --> 00:22:00,839 on my paper almost instantaneously. Other than that, I feel 385 00:22:00,880 --> 00:22:02,599 like they did a fairly decent job of it. 386 00:22:03,079 --> 00:22:03,799 Speaker 4: I think so too. 387 00:22:04,359 --> 00:22:10,000 Speaker 3: Let's see, we have some more questions here. Let's get 388 00:22:10,079 --> 00:22:14,359 to the Call and Haley case. We had a number 389 00:22:14,359 --> 00:22:17,279 of different questions about this one. Okay, let's get to 390 00:22:17,319 --> 00:22:21,119 another question. Question number two is from Charlie C. Charlie 391 00:22:21,160 --> 00:22:25,319 asks has the FBI looked at the police officers in 392 00:22:25,359 --> 00:22:28,480 the region of the state and looked at their log 393 00:22:28,519 --> 00:22:32,119 in times and logout times, who was off and who 394 00:22:32,200 --> 00:22:34,000 was working at the times of the murders. 395 00:22:34,559 --> 00:22:36,960 Speaker 2: The answer is yes. Now, this is something that makes 396 00:22:37,000 --> 00:22:40,400 a lot of people uncomfortable, including the FBI, the Virginia 397 00:22:40,440 --> 00:22:44,000 State Police, and other agencies, because nobody likes the idea 398 00:22:44,319 --> 00:22:48,279 of looking at law enforcement officers as potential suspects. This 399 00:22:48,359 --> 00:22:52,400 would include National Park Service rangers, by the way, keeping 400 00:22:52,440 --> 00:22:55,759 in mind that the Colonial Parkway is a national park, 401 00:22:56,160 --> 00:22:59,440 so they have looked at National Park Service rangers and 402 00:22:59,519 --> 00:23:03,000 other lawlaw enforcement officers as potential suspects. 403 00:23:03,319 --> 00:23:06,359 Speaker 3: Following up on the park ranger idea, Amy l Asks, 404 00:23:06,519 --> 00:23:08,920 isn't no longer a theory that any of the murders 405 00:23:09,000 --> 00:23:10,799 may have been committed by a park ranger. 406 00:23:11,359 --> 00:23:14,359 Speaker 2: Well, the investigators have said to me for years that 407 00:23:14,880 --> 00:23:19,519 no one is cleared until a case is solved. Now, 408 00:23:19,799 --> 00:23:22,000 years ago, I was told there were one hundred and 409 00:23:22,039 --> 00:23:25,519 fifty persons of interest in the Colonial Parkway murders. A 410 00:23:25,640 --> 00:23:29,160 number of them are law enforcement officers who have been 411 00:23:29,200 --> 00:23:33,039 looked at current and former law enforcement officers that could 412 00:23:33,079 --> 00:23:35,839 have been involved. And as we talked about a minute ago, 413 00:23:35,880 --> 00:23:39,799 there's this sense that someone rolls up on these couples 414 00:23:39,839 --> 00:23:44,400 while they're parked and presents themselves in a non threatening way, 415 00:23:44,400 --> 00:23:46,440 at least initially, who would do that. 416 00:23:46,799 --> 00:23:47,920 Speaker 4: It could be a. 417 00:23:47,960 --> 00:23:51,640 Speaker 2: National Park Service ranger or other law enforcement officer. I 418 00:23:51,680 --> 00:23:55,359 don't think that idea has been scrapped, but it seems 419 00:23:55,599 --> 00:23:59,079 less likely now that we know that Alan Wade Wilmer 420 00:23:59,680 --> 00:24:03,319 is good for at least one of the Colonial Parkway murders. 421 00:24:03,839 --> 00:24:07,279 But I don't think anything's been put aside Until the 422 00:24:07,359 --> 00:24:10,799 case is completely solved. You can't really say this is 423 00:24:10,920 --> 00:24:14,359 not an operative theory because it could still be a 424 00:24:14,400 --> 00:24:18,000 situation where one or more of the Colonial Parkway murders 425 00:24:18,039 --> 00:24:20,599 might have been committed by someone in those categories. 426 00:24:21,160 --> 00:24:23,640 Speaker 3: And of course one of the things that the series 427 00:24:23,640 --> 00:24:26,640 did not have time to get into. This is where 428 00:24:26,640 --> 00:24:28,279 I think it would have been helpful to have more 429 00:24:28,319 --> 00:24:30,839 than one episode, is the idea that there are probably 430 00:24:30,880 --> 00:24:34,720 other cases that are tied into Alan Wade Wilmer Senior. 431 00:24:35,240 --> 00:24:38,039 We've been vocal about the fact on the pod that 432 00:24:38,079 --> 00:24:41,200 we think Brian Pettinger Lorian Powell could be tied in. 433 00:24:41,839 --> 00:24:44,960 We know, for example, that Terry Howell is definitively tied 434 00:24:44,960 --> 00:24:47,079 to Wilmer, and there are many many others around the 435 00:24:47,119 --> 00:24:50,640 area that we think could be a match for Wilmer. 436 00:24:50,799 --> 00:24:52,839 Is just going to be a matter of people doing 437 00:24:52,839 --> 00:24:55,039 a little bit more digging and pulling those files out 438 00:24:55,079 --> 00:24:57,039 of cold case storage. 439 00:24:58,519 --> 00:25:01,200 Speaker 2: You're listening to mind over m We'll be right back 440 00:25:01,480 --> 00:25:19,400 after this word from our sponsors. We're back here at 441 00:25:19,400 --> 00:25:20,319 mindover Murder. 442 00:25:22,799 --> 00:25:26,319 Speaker 3: Another question from Charlie C was about the Lori Ann 443 00:25:26,440 --> 00:25:29,799 Powell case that we think may be related to Wilmer. 444 00:25:30,400 --> 00:25:33,799 So he asks, what about the portable radio found at 445 00:25:33,799 --> 00:25:36,759 the site of Lourie Ann Powell in Back Creek? In 446 00:25:36,880 --> 00:25:39,680 Newport News it said that a radio belonging to the 447 00:25:39,680 --> 00:25:43,039 Gloucester Sheriff's office was found by the state Belief dive team. 448 00:25:43,720 --> 00:25:45,799 It was kept under wraps and only a handful of 449 00:25:45,839 --> 00:25:48,039 people know about it. Where is that radio? 450 00:25:48,200 --> 00:25:48,480 Speaker 4: Now? 451 00:25:49,000 --> 00:25:51,240 Speaker 3: And Bill, I don't remember hearing this story, so I 452 00:25:51,279 --> 00:25:53,240 think you've got the goods on this. Can you fill 453 00:25:53,279 --> 00:25:53,599 us in? 454 00:25:54,200 --> 00:25:59,279 Speaker 2: Well, Fred Atwell, who is our whistle blowing deputy sheriff 455 00:25:59,440 --> 00:26:04,559 now East the person who is responsible for the two 456 00:26:04,599 --> 00:26:07,480 thousand and nine story that broke about the FBI losing 457 00:26:07,519 --> 00:26:11,920 control of the crime scene photos. Atwell and I talked many, 458 00:26:12,039 --> 00:26:15,519 many times in that two thousand and nine to twenty 459 00:26:16,000 --> 00:26:20,160 twelve or so timeframe. At Well talk to me about 460 00:26:20,200 --> 00:26:22,720 this radio numerous times. 461 00:26:22,759 --> 00:26:22,960 Speaker 4: Now. 462 00:26:23,000 --> 00:26:27,720 Speaker 2: Fred Atwell, who was a crook then a deputy sheriff 463 00:26:27,759 --> 00:26:30,680 in the Gloucester County Sheriff's Department who then went back 464 00:26:30,720 --> 00:26:34,640 to being a crook, told me some wild stories about 465 00:26:34,680 --> 00:26:40,160 this case, and he brought this radio thing up numerous times. 466 00:26:40,480 --> 00:26:43,240 He suspected that another man who had worked in the 467 00:26:43,279 --> 00:26:47,559 Gloucester County Sheriff's Department was involved in the Colonial Parkway murders, 468 00:26:47,880 --> 00:26:51,599 and he talked to me about this radio being tossed 469 00:26:51,640 --> 00:26:55,279 into the water, and then later discovered. I don't know 470 00:26:55,319 --> 00:26:58,400 where Charlie's getting his info, but it's good info, is 471 00:26:58,400 --> 00:27:00,880 what I'm getting at a lot of people don't seem 472 00:27:00,960 --> 00:27:03,359 to know about this, and it's not something I recall 473 00:27:03,440 --> 00:27:06,720 ever discussing publicly, but it is something that I've heard 474 00:27:06,759 --> 00:27:10,720 about numerous times. And I don't know where that radio 475 00:27:11,000 --> 00:27:14,559 is located. Now, this would have been like a walkie talkie, 476 00:27:14,599 --> 00:27:18,160 you know, a police radio. The implication from talking to 477 00:27:18,279 --> 00:27:21,279 Otwell about this was He seemed to feel that the 478 00:27:21,440 --> 00:27:23,559 radio might have been used as a weapon, that it 479 00:27:23,640 --> 00:27:26,960 might have been used to strike someone or bludgeon someone. 480 00:27:27,400 --> 00:27:31,720 He felt that this Gloucester County sheriff deputy that he 481 00:27:31,839 --> 00:27:37,240 had worked with was somehow involved in the disposal of 482 00:27:37,359 --> 00:27:39,880 this radio, and I remember him talking about it being 483 00:27:39,920 --> 00:27:43,119 thrown into a creek or a pond or something like that. 484 00:27:43,119 --> 00:27:45,119 It's been a number of years since I talked to 485 00:27:45,119 --> 00:27:48,039 Outwell about this, but very interesting. I'd love to talk 486 00:27:48,079 --> 00:27:51,640 to Charlie further about where Charlie. I assume Charlie is 487 00:27:51,759 --> 00:27:54,680 he where he learned about this, because this is not 488 00:27:54,799 --> 00:27:56,440 something that's very publicly known. 489 00:27:57,079 --> 00:27:59,960 Speaker 3: Very interesting question, and I did reach out to Charlie 490 00:28:00,119 --> 00:28:02,720 on our social media page. So Charlie, if you're listening, 491 00:28:02,759 --> 00:28:05,799 we do have some additional questions, please reach out. Let 492 00:28:05,839 --> 00:28:11,319 me move to questions about the cal Haley case. This 493 00:28:11,440 --> 00:28:15,559 question is from I think it's rainier and my apologies 494 00:28:15,559 --> 00:28:18,720 if I'm saying it wrong. My dad, I do my best. 495 00:28:19,359 --> 00:28:24,359 Rainier asks was the mud on Keith's Toyota Celica's tires 496 00:28:24,759 --> 00:28:28,720 ever tested? If Keith and Sandy were intercepted and taken 497 00:28:28,759 --> 00:28:32,240 to were forced to some isolated location. The testing of 498 00:28:32,279 --> 00:28:35,759 the mud on the tires might possibly give valuable clues 499 00:28:35,799 --> 00:28:37,839 as to where they were any idea. 500 00:28:38,440 --> 00:28:42,319 Speaker 2: I'm not an expert on what tire testing was done 501 00:28:42,880 --> 00:28:48,519 on Keith's Toyota Celica. It's a real good question. I 502 00:28:48,559 --> 00:28:52,240 would like to think that the FBI would have checked 503 00:28:52,279 --> 00:28:55,519 it out. We have this very strange situation where the 504 00:28:55,640 --> 00:28:59,480 last place Keith and Sandy were seen was at the 505 00:28:59,599 --> 00:29:04,440 party at Christopher Newport University at the old University Square apartments, 506 00:29:04,680 --> 00:29:07,039 and then the car of course, ends up on the 507 00:29:07,039 --> 00:29:12,400 Colonial Parkway. Keith and Sandy's families maintain, and they feel 508 00:29:12,440 --> 00:29:15,680 strongly about this, that they do not think that Keith 509 00:29:15,720 --> 00:29:18,759 and Sandy would have gone to the Colonial Parkway. And 510 00:29:18,799 --> 00:29:21,680 as we've discussed before, the fact that they had a 511 00:29:21,720 --> 00:29:24,119 curfew which they were trying to meet, which I think 512 00:29:24,240 --> 00:29:27,160 was a two am curfew, and the fact that the 513 00:29:27,400 --> 00:29:31,880 parkway was out of the way, taking them from Christopher 514 00:29:31,880 --> 00:29:36,440 Newport University and the graft And section of Yorktown. The 515 00:29:36,519 --> 00:29:39,440 Parkway was fifteen or twenty minutes out of the way 516 00:29:39,799 --> 00:29:42,720 doesn't seem to make sense, which makes you feel like 517 00:29:43,000 --> 00:29:45,960 they were either forced to go there to that location, 518 00:29:46,400 --> 00:29:49,440 or the car was moved at some point and then 519 00:29:49,519 --> 00:29:52,799 Keith's car would have been abandoned along the York River 520 00:29:53,160 --> 00:29:56,759 the mud testing. It's an interesting question. I don't think 521 00:29:56,799 --> 00:30:01,319 we know the answered definitively. Clearly begin to see a 522 00:30:02,039 --> 00:30:07,279 pattern emerging of the movement and staging of these motor 523 00:30:07,359 --> 00:30:12,519 vehicles post mortem. Keith and Sandy's families feel strongly that 524 00:30:12,519 --> 00:30:15,680 that Toyota Selica was not driven there or voluntarily. 525 00:30:16,279 --> 00:30:18,519 Speaker 3: I also want to make sure that we hit on 526 00:30:18,519 --> 00:30:21,920 one other inaccuracy that people have asked us about a 527 00:30:21,960 --> 00:30:24,759 couple of times online. I think a lot of people 528 00:30:24,799 --> 00:30:27,359 picked up on this one. It was stated in the 529 00:30:27,400 --> 00:30:31,759 documentary that the cars with the exception of Kathy's, were 530 00:30:31,839 --> 00:30:35,559 left running. That is not accurate. That is not accurate. 531 00:30:35,599 --> 00:30:38,839 The cars were not left running. Bill. Do you want 532 00:30:38,880 --> 00:30:43,039 to comment further about the way that the cars were found. 533 00:30:43,160 --> 00:30:46,640 They did mention that for some of them driver's licenses 534 00:30:46,680 --> 00:30:50,400 were out, while it's various other things. Can you comment 535 00:30:50,519 --> 00:30:53,319 on in each of the incidents? How was the car 536 00:30:53,480 --> 00:30:55,559 found in staged? So to speak? 537 00:30:56,480 --> 00:31:00,400 Speaker 2: I think the origin of the idea that the nission 538 00:31:01,359 --> 00:31:05,279 was on with the engine running comes from Incident number two, 539 00:31:05,839 --> 00:31:09,880 which is Robin Everards and David Nobling in David Nobling's 540 00:31:09,920 --> 00:31:15,240 truck at Ragged Island. As Michael Nobling has explained on 541 00:31:15,480 --> 00:31:20,440 other shows and other interviews, he and his brother David 542 00:31:20,559 --> 00:31:25,319 had wired the stereo in the Ford Ranger pickup truck 543 00:31:25,400 --> 00:31:29,079 so you could play the stereo without turning the ignition on. 544 00:31:30,279 --> 00:31:33,640 When the truck was found in the parking lot at 545 00:31:33,759 --> 00:31:37,319 Ragged Island, the ignition was in the on position. The 546 00:31:37,359 --> 00:31:41,880 wipers were on I think intermittent, so they were sweeping 547 00:31:42,000 --> 00:31:44,160 back and forth across the windshield from time to time, 548 00:31:44,279 --> 00:31:47,559 and the radio was on, so I think that's the 549 00:31:47,599 --> 00:31:51,680 origin of the idea that the engines were running. To 550 00:31:51,759 --> 00:31:55,519 my knowledge, none of the four vehicles was actually running 551 00:31:55,559 --> 00:31:59,400 when it was found. So that's incident number two. We've 552 00:31:59,400 --> 00:32:02,880 talked a little bit about Kathy and Becky's crime scene 553 00:32:02,920 --> 00:32:06,759 with my sister's Honda keys were in the car. It 554 00:32:06,759 --> 00:32:09,319 had been pushed over the embankment, as they discuss on 555 00:32:09,359 --> 00:32:14,759 the show. In incident number three, as we understand it, 556 00:32:15,279 --> 00:32:20,119 according to the families, Keith calls Toyota Selica was found 557 00:32:20,279 --> 00:32:24,519 abandoned along the Colonial Parkway with the keys we believe 558 00:32:24,599 --> 00:32:29,160 in the center console, so convenient, but not necessarily in 559 00:32:29,279 --> 00:32:31,480 the ignition. And of course there's a lot of question 560 00:32:31,920 --> 00:32:35,400 about did Keith and Sandy drive the car to that location? 561 00:32:36,680 --> 00:32:41,119 This very odd discrepancy where mister Call on his way 562 00:32:41,160 --> 00:32:45,559 to work. This would be Richard Called, the father of Keith, 563 00:32:45,799 --> 00:32:50,559 was on his way to work at the Anheuser Busch Brewery. 564 00:32:52,039 --> 00:32:56,480 He passed by there routinely along the Colonial Parkway as 565 00:32:56,480 --> 00:32:59,559 he was going to work, and he says he stopped 566 00:32:59,559 --> 00:33:02,640 when he saw Keith's Selleca parked in one of the 567 00:33:02,680 --> 00:33:08,559 half moon pulloffs. Mister Call's strong recollection he since passed away, 568 00:33:08,599 --> 00:33:12,039 so we can't ask him, but his strong recollection is 569 00:33:12,039 --> 00:33:15,039 that he didn't see anything out of the ordinary, and 570 00:33:15,119 --> 00:33:18,880 he swore up and down he did not see clothing 571 00:33:19,319 --> 00:33:22,079 folded and piled up in the back seat. This would 572 00:33:22,119 --> 00:33:25,759 have been Keith and Sandy's clothing, or at least some 573 00:33:25,839 --> 00:33:29,440 of it. This troubled mister Call for years. He even 574 00:33:29,480 --> 00:33:33,480 went under hypnosis to try to remember additional details about it. 575 00:33:34,079 --> 00:33:38,440 So there are odd things about that crime scene. And 576 00:33:38,480 --> 00:33:41,799 then finally, Anna, Maria Phelps and Daniel Lower, who were 577 00:33:41,839 --> 00:33:45,599 found at the Hunt Club. Six weeks after going missing 578 00:33:45,640 --> 00:33:50,799 along Interstate sixty four. His kind of beater Chevy Nova 579 00:33:51,160 --> 00:33:54,200 was found at a rest stop, but in the wrong 580 00:33:54,359 --> 00:33:57,960 direction of travel, that is, away from Virginia Beach, which 581 00:33:58,000 --> 00:34:01,799 is their destination in the car. And there was this 582 00:34:02,119 --> 00:34:06,880 roach clip attached to the outside of the window, which 583 00:34:07,240 --> 00:34:10,440 struck investigators as very odd. They actually thought of it 584 00:34:10,480 --> 00:34:14,559 as a taunt from the killer or killers. And the 585 00:34:14,679 --> 00:34:17,320 car was very oddly placed. It was at the rest stop. 586 00:34:17,320 --> 00:34:19,440 There are two rest stops on either side of Interstate 587 00:34:19,480 --> 00:34:21,199 sixty four. They're kind of mirror imaged. 588 00:34:21,519 --> 00:34:23,800 Speaker 4: It was parked about as far away. 589 00:34:23,519 --> 00:34:26,960 Speaker 2: As you could be from the actual rest stop, you know, 590 00:34:27,039 --> 00:34:31,360 the women's room, men's room, whatever else was there. It 591 00:34:31,400 --> 00:34:35,760 was much smaller back then. This was parked way far 592 00:34:35,840 --> 00:34:40,199 off in the truck acceleration lane, which may have been intentional. 593 00:34:40,760 --> 00:34:42,559 That is, they may have wanted to be as far 594 00:34:42,599 --> 00:34:45,960 away from the buildings as possible when they abandoned the 595 00:34:46,039 --> 00:34:50,280 car there. In some cases, Blaine Pardos talked about this, 596 00:34:50,840 --> 00:34:54,239 He almost felt like cars were left in such a 597 00:34:54,239 --> 00:34:57,679 fashion with the hope that maybe somebody might come along 598 00:34:58,320 --> 00:35:01,320 and take the car, steal the car, because the keys 599 00:35:01,360 --> 00:35:06,039 were either in the ignition or in the center console. Fortunately, 600 00:35:06,039 --> 00:35:08,400 as far as we know, that never happened. It may 601 00:35:08,440 --> 00:35:12,079 have been part of the intent of the offender to 602 00:35:12,159 --> 00:35:14,760 see if they could get somebody else to steal or 603 00:35:14,840 --> 00:35:15,519 move the car. 604 00:35:16,599 --> 00:35:20,440 Speaker 3: Our next question comes from Vicky w. Vicky asks did 605 00:35:20,559 --> 00:35:24,199 any police department that was working on this case ever 606 00:35:24,360 --> 00:35:27,320 check any of the places that Wilmer lived to see 607 00:35:27,360 --> 00:35:30,960 if personal possessions turn up from Keith and Cassandra. 608 00:35:31,880 --> 00:35:35,679 Speaker 2: The answer, VICKI is yes. The FBI and the Virginia 609 00:35:35,719 --> 00:35:40,559 State Police raided Wilmer's home, where he had been living 610 00:35:40,599 --> 00:35:42,519 for a number of years now, keeping in mind he 611 00:35:42,519 --> 00:35:47,360 had died in December twenty seventeen and the house he 612 00:35:47,519 --> 00:35:52,679 lived in did remain in his family's hands. His son 613 00:35:52,840 --> 00:35:55,920 and his family actually lived at the home at the 614 00:35:56,000 --> 00:35:58,440 time of these raids, which is about a year and 615 00:35:58,480 --> 00:36:02,519 a half ago now. They did conduct a very extensive 616 00:36:02,719 --> 00:36:07,000 search of the home, and they were looking for certain 617 00:36:07,039 --> 00:36:10,519 things what people sometimes refer to as trophies. There were 618 00:36:11,159 --> 00:36:14,480 things that they think are missing from the crime scenes, 619 00:36:15,400 --> 00:36:19,559 drivers' licenses, and things like that they were looking for. 620 00:36:20,360 --> 00:36:24,480 And they did search these homes thoroughly and to my knowledge, 621 00:36:24,519 --> 00:36:28,119 they'd never found anything that would tie Wilmer back in 622 00:36:28,320 --> 00:36:30,719 directly to these victims. 623 00:36:31,679 --> 00:36:37,760 Speaker 3: Before we leave Keith and Sandra, let's get one more 624 00:36:38,039 --> 00:36:42,559 question in This is also from Rainier. There's a broad 625 00:36:42,599 --> 00:36:45,519 consensus that Keith and Cassandra would not have gone to 626 00:36:45,559 --> 00:36:48,719 the Colonial Parkway willingly or on their own. We've discussed 627 00:36:49,760 --> 00:36:52,519 is there a theory that would explain the two separate 628 00:36:52,639 --> 00:36:55,800 trails the search dogs were following on the morning of 629 00:36:55,840 --> 00:36:58,719 April tenth. Any speculation on that bill. 630 00:36:58,960 --> 00:36:59,800 Speaker 4: Well different people. 631 00:37:00,000 --> 00:37:04,719 Speaker 2: I've offered some pretty worthwhile thoughts here. What Renyer is 632 00:37:04,920 --> 00:37:09,599 referring to is when search dogs were brought in to 633 00:37:09,840 --> 00:37:14,320 the cal Haley site, that is where the Toyota celica 634 00:37:14,599 --> 00:37:18,000 was located. The dogs picked up the scent from inside 635 00:37:18,000 --> 00:37:23,719 the car, and then they led their handlers through that 636 00:37:23,920 --> 00:37:29,079 rest stop and down towards the water and actually wanted 637 00:37:29,079 --> 00:37:32,280 to go into the water, which these search dogs will do. 638 00:37:33,320 --> 00:37:34,559 Speaker 4: So there was a pretty. 639 00:37:34,280 --> 00:37:38,039 Speaker 2: Strong feeling that it was possible that Keith and Sandy 640 00:37:38,079 --> 00:37:43,599 were taken down to the water's edge. Now, if Wilmer's involved, 641 00:37:43,840 --> 00:37:47,400 and Wilmer is a waterman and has a boat, the 642 00:37:47,440 --> 00:37:52,400 thought was perhaps that Keith and Sandy were moved. They 643 00:37:52,440 --> 00:37:55,320 could be alive and marched down to the edge of 644 00:37:55,360 --> 00:37:58,440 the water. They could be dead and dragged down to 645 00:37:58,519 --> 00:38:02,840 the water, either placed in the water or near it 646 00:38:02,960 --> 00:38:08,679 by a killer. Unfortunately, this is one of the frustrating 647 00:38:08,719 --> 00:38:11,679 things about our case, is that it's dragged on for 648 00:38:11,719 --> 00:38:15,960 so long. Those dog handlers, who were a married couple, 649 00:38:16,800 --> 00:38:20,880 they're gone now, they've passed on. They were insistent, however, 650 00:38:21,039 --> 00:38:25,639 that the dogs were absolutely hitting on Keith and Sandy 651 00:38:25,760 --> 00:38:28,800 sent and that took them directly to the edge of 652 00:38:28,840 --> 00:38:33,000 the water at indian Field Creek, which runs into the 653 00:38:33,119 --> 00:38:37,400 York River. And the dogs are typically not wrong, and 654 00:38:37,440 --> 00:38:40,480 the handlers remembered this very clearly. 655 00:38:41,639 --> 00:38:42,119 Speaker 4: You know, Bill. 656 00:38:42,159 --> 00:38:44,400 Speaker 3: One of the things I was interested in watching this 657 00:38:44,559 --> 00:38:46,400 is I always wonder if there's going to be a 658 00:38:46,400 --> 00:38:49,679 new information that I don't know, and there was. There 659 00:38:49,719 --> 00:38:51,880 were a couple of pieces of information in here that 660 00:38:52,000 --> 00:38:55,119 I did not know. One of them, for example, was 661 00:38:55,239 --> 00:38:58,920 the information that there had been search teams from the 662 00:38:59,039 --> 00:39:05,119 US Marine who were helping search at Keith and Sandy's site. 663 00:39:05,159 --> 00:39:07,159 I had no idea. That is not something I had 664 00:39:07,159 --> 00:39:10,719 ever heard. I also was not aware of the information 665 00:39:11,000 --> 00:39:15,199 that I think is very very interesting that there had 666 00:39:15,199 --> 00:39:18,920 been a northeaster right around that time period that may 667 00:39:19,039 --> 00:39:22,840 have washed Keith and Sandy out to see if their 668 00:39:22,880 --> 00:39:27,280 bodies were in the water. I had no idea, but boy, 669 00:39:27,280 --> 00:39:32,000 would that suddenly account for their absolute utter disappearance. Were 670 00:39:32,039 --> 00:39:34,159 you aware of either of those two things, the marine 671 00:39:34,239 --> 00:39:35,239 search and the northeaster. 672 00:39:35,559 --> 00:39:38,880 Speaker 2: I remember the marine search, I don't remember the northeaster. 673 00:39:40,280 --> 00:39:42,719 Speaker 3: I think that would really be something worth looking into, 674 00:39:42,960 --> 00:39:46,559 especially the information about the northeaster, because we have spent 675 00:39:46,599 --> 00:39:49,519 a long time wondering where Keith and Sandy actually are. 676 00:39:50,519 --> 00:39:53,880 They ended up in the water. Good sized nor easter 677 00:39:54,000 --> 00:39:57,360 will take them right out to a out to the ocean. 678 00:39:57,360 --> 00:40:01,199 Maybe that was definitely something I didn't and I'm always 679 00:40:01,280 --> 00:40:05,360 interested in what I'm learning here that is new information. 680 00:40:06,000 --> 00:40:10,199 Speaker 2: There's another murder case up in Lancaster County that they 681 00:40:10,320 --> 00:40:14,960 suspect that Wilmer could be involved, and that's the murder 682 00:40:14,960 --> 00:40:20,800 of Mary Keyser Harding ms Harding, who worked at the 683 00:40:20,880 --> 00:40:26,880 Lancaster Bank with Keith Wilmer. He's Wilmer's older brother with 684 00:40:27,039 --> 00:40:30,880 Keith Wilmer's wife, Keser Harding was brutally murdered and her 685 00:40:30,920 --> 00:40:35,400 body was dumped in the Rappahannock River. She was weighted 686 00:40:35,480 --> 00:40:39,320 down with the kind of chain that would be used 687 00:40:39,360 --> 00:40:45,559 by watermen for hauling oysters and crabs and things like that. 688 00:40:45,559 --> 00:40:51,320 That's a very interesting, perhaps parallel and possibly related case. 689 00:40:51,880 --> 00:40:55,760 The Mary Keyser Harding case is still unsolved. Will include 690 00:40:55,760 --> 00:40:58,719 a link in the show notes to a fascinating article 691 00:40:58,800 --> 00:41:01,440 called a Murder on the Rapid Hannick that tells the 692 00:41:01,480 --> 00:41:05,760 story of that case. A man was wrongfully convicted in 693 00:41:05,800 --> 00:41:10,599 that murder. Ultimately he was exonerated. I think it's about 694 00:41:10,639 --> 00:41:15,920 thirty years later, and that case now remains unsolved. There 695 00:41:16,000 --> 00:41:19,760 is the possibility of involvement by members of the Wilmer family, 696 00:41:20,000 --> 00:41:23,559 and that would be another situation where a victim was 697 00:41:24,119 --> 00:41:27,519 dumped in the water in an area river and weighted 698 00:41:27,599 --> 00:41:28,639 down with chains. 699 00:41:29,840 --> 00:41:31,800 Speaker 3: We have a lot more questions that we're going to 700 00:41:31,800 --> 00:41:33,880 get to, so we're definitely going to pull this into 701 00:41:33,920 --> 00:41:37,280 a second episode before we end. I wanted to make 702 00:41:37,280 --> 00:41:39,519 sure that we give kudos to all of the people 703 00:41:39,559 --> 00:41:43,599 who were involved in this series. Everyone did a wonderful job, 704 00:41:43,639 --> 00:41:47,679 from Steve Spingola to Blaine Pardo, Joe Kenda, Danny Plutt. 705 00:41:47,920 --> 00:41:52,039 But I especially, of course want to extend my sincerest 706 00:41:52,079 --> 00:41:54,920 and warmest wishes to all the family members who were 707 00:41:54,920 --> 00:41:57,559 willing to show up and relive this, because it's hard 708 00:41:57,599 --> 00:42:01,320 to do so. Of the family members who it was, Bill, 709 00:42:01,559 --> 00:42:06,199 of course, Mike Nobling, Joyce called Canada her brother Doug 710 00:42:06,320 --> 00:42:11,320 call I really wanted to shout out Michael Nobling in particular. 711 00:42:11,480 --> 00:42:15,599 I have not seen Mike speak up very often in 712 00:42:15,760 --> 00:42:21,440 these series, but I was really really moved and affected 713 00:42:21,519 --> 00:42:24,800 by the way that he shared his great love for 714 00:42:24,880 --> 00:42:29,159 his brother. I really felt like I learned a lot 715 00:42:29,280 --> 00:42:33,639 more about David, and I could feel Michael's intense love 716 00:42:33,719 --> 00:42:36,559 for his brother and his desire to see justice for 717 00:42:36,679 --> 00:42:40,800 his brother don Bill, how did you feel about being 718 00:42:40,920 --> 00:42:44,000 involved in this case in this documentary and how did 719 00:42:44,039 --> 00:42:46,280 you feel about Mike's involvement. I think Mike did a 720 00:42:46,280 --> 00:42:46,800 great job. 721 00:42:47,119 --> 00:42:47,960 Speaker 4: I think so too. 722 00:42:48,559 --> 00:42:53,199 Speaker 2: We have over the years done a number of interviews. 723 00:42:53,840 --> 00:42:57,079 The most unfortunate part about doing these interviews, of course, 724 00:42:57,159 --> 00:43:01,760 they're very difficult emotionally. I've seen Michael interviewed a number 725 00:43:01,800 --> 00:43:06,039 of times for the Lover's Lane murder series. There is 726 00:43:06,400 --> 00:43:10,159 beautiful footage which unfortunately may never see the light of day, 727 00:43:10,519 --> 00:43:14,199 of Michael talking about David, and you got a glimpse 728 00:43:14,360 --> 00:43:18,400 into that in this American detective series as well. He 729 00:43:18,440 --> 00:43:22,079 did a fantastic job, and he's a lovely guy and 730 00:43:22,719 --> 00:43:25,480 smart and thoughtful. But it was really nice for him 731 00:43:25,519 --> 00:43:29,639 to kind of take you back to what happened before 732 00:43:29,679 --> 00:43:32,960 the murder and after and the emotional impact that it 733 00:43:33,079 --> 00:43:36,320 had on his family. I mean, both Edwards and Nobbling 734 00:43:36,440 --> 00:43:39,880 families have told stories about how they found out about 735 00:43:40,000 --> 00:43:43,320 that their loved ones had been killed on the evening news, 736 00:43:43,400 --> 00:43:46,599 which is just the worst way to find out, and 737 00:43:46,679 --> 00:43:50,400 how shocking that was. And Mike talked about hearing his 738 00:43:50,480 --> 00:43:51,880 mother's scream from the other room. 739 00:43:52,960 --> 00:43:54,480 Speaker 4: Hard not to be moved by that. 740 00:43:54,639 --> 00:43:57,679 Speaker 2: But I think they did an amazing job, and I 741 00:43:57,719 --> 00:44:00,800 hope everybody's pretty clear by this point. You know, we're 742 00:44:00,840 --> 00:44:04,760 doing these interviews because we feel that it's one of 743 00:44:04,800 --> 00:44:09,039 the only ways we have of moving this investigation forward. 744 00:44:10,000 --> 00:44:13,760 By putting media pressure on our friends at the FBI 745 00:44:13,880 --> 00:44:17,159 and Virginia State Police and these other agencies, that's the 746 00:44:17,199 --> 00:44:20,559 only way we can try to keep this case moving forward. 747 00:44:22,039 --> 00:44:24,400 Speaker 3: I also think it's important because somebody had mentioned it 748 00:44:24,440 --> 00:44:28,000 in the comments section. A lot of the siblings in 749 00:44:28,039 --> 00:44:30,320 this case have had to step up and take a role, 750 00:44:30,559 --> 00:44:33,880 like yourself, because so many of the sets of parents 751 00:44:33,960 --> 00:44:37,320 have died. Can you just speak to that, Bill and 752 00:44:37,639 --> 00:44:40,800 the fact that there are this has become a generational 753 00:44:40,880 --> 00:44:46,239 thing now and it's become necessary for siblings and probably 754 00:44:46,239 --> 00:44:48,920 at some point nieceays and nephews to step up and 755 00:44:48,960 --> 00:44:49,719 take a role here. 756 00:44:50,559 --> 00:44:54,159 Speaker 2: Well, last time I checked, there are eight victims in 757 00:44:54,199 --> 00:44:57,320 the core part of what we call the Colonial Parkray murders. 758 00:44:57,639 --> 00:45:01,239 That's sixteen moms and dads. This time I checked, we'd 759 00:45:01,280 --> 00:45:06,760 lost nine of the sixteen parents. For those surviving parents, 760 00:45:07,000 --> 00:45:10,239 they're getting on in age, and this is a difficult 761 00:45:10,280 --> 00:45:12,840 thing to do emotionally. As we were just talking about 762 00:45:13,599 --> 00:45:16,440 it falls to the siblings because if we don't talk 763 00:45:16,480 --> 00:45:19,280 about this case, no one will talk about it. So 764 00:45:19,480 --> 00:45:21,719 we all kind of shrug our shoulders and we just 765 00:45:21,960 --> 00:45:25,480 keep talking about this case because we think good things 766 00:45:25,559 --> 00:45:29,760 will come out of coverage like American Detective, because it 767 00:45:29,840 --> 00:45:33,239 keeps people talking about the case. I've learned new things 768 00:45:33,639 --> 00:45:35,880 not just from the series, but from the comments on 769 00:45:35,920 --> 00:45:39,119 social media. So I want to encourage people to come forward. 770 00:45:39,159 --> 00:45:43,960 They can private message us or make public comments. They 771 00:45:43,960 --> 00:45:46,840 don't have to give us their real name. We're only 772 00:45:46,960 --> 00:45:51,760 interested in trying to move this case forward, and if 773 00:45:51,800 --> 00:45:55,519 it takes the siblings to do it, then so be it. 774 00:45:55,519 --> 00:45:57,480 Speaker 3: It is a good time to remind people that if 775 00:45:57,480 --> 00:46:00,519 they have any information about Allen Wade Wilmercy, it is 776 00:46:00,559 --> 00:46:03,440 imperative that you come forward with that information because we 777 00:46:03,559 --> 00:46:06,840 still do not know a lot about him, his movements, 778 00:46:07,159 --> 00:46:09,519 or anything else. We will talk a little bit more 779 00:46:09,559 --> 00:46:12,679 in the next episode about his family and how helpful 780 00:46:12,719 --> 00:46:15,119 they have been to this investigation, but there is still 781 00:46:15,159 --> 00:46:17,960 just a lot that we do not know. So if 782 00:46:18,039 --> 00:46:21,559 you or someone that you know has worked with Wilmer, 783 00:46:21,960 --> 00:46:26,480 socialized with Wilmer, anything else, please please please come forward, 784 00:46:26,599 --> 00:46:29,880 either to us, to the FBI, to the Virginia State Police. 785 00:46:30,320 --> 00:46:33,960 We still need to know so much about him. This 786 00:46:34,119 --> 00:46:37,000 case is not closed. We'll talk more about that in 787 00:46:37,039 --> 00:46:40,800 our next episode. In the meantime, please watch American Detective. 788 00:46:41,480 --> 00:46:44,159 Thank you so much for listening. We'll see you next time. 789 00:46:54,159 --> 00:46:57,719 Speaker 1: Mind Over Murder is a production of Absolute Zero and 790 00:46:57,800 --> 00:46:59,239 Another Dog Productions. 791 00:47:00,039 --> 00:47:03,119 Speaker 2: Executive producers are Bill Thomas and Kristin Dilley. 792 00:47:03,440 --> 00:47:05,880 Speaker 1: Our logo art is by Pamela Arnois. 793 00:47:06,519 --> 00:47:08,559 Speaker 4: Our theme music is by Kevin McLoud. 794 00:47:09,119 --> 00:47:13,000 Speaker 1: Mind Over Murder is distributed in partnership with Coral Space Media. 795 00:47:13,800 --> 00:47:17,039 Speaker 2: You can follow us on Facebook, Twitter, or Instagram. 796 00:47:17,159 --> 00:47:19,760 Speaker 1: You can also follow our page on the Colonial Parkway 797 00:47:19,840 --> 00:47:21,639 Murders on Facebook. 798 00:47:21,440 --> 00:47:24,440 Speaker 2: And finally, you can follow Bill Thomas on Twitter at 799 00:47:24,480 --> 00:47:25,280 Bill Thomas. 800 00:47:25,480 --> 00:47:26,119 Speaker 4: Five six. 801 00:47:26,599 --> 00:47:29,679 Speaker 1: Thank you for listening to mind Over Murder.