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That's Chumbuck Casino dot com. 27 00:00:57.759 --> 00:01:00.000 No'll producess avery. I lost e terms. 28 00:01:00.039 --> 00:01:10.040 If it's eighty plus, you are now listening to True Murder. 29 00:01:10.560 --> 00:01:13.760 The most shocking killers in true crime history and the 30 00:01:13.799 --> 00:01:18.799 authors that have written about them. Gasey Bundy, Dahmer, The 31 00:01:18.920 --> 00:01:24.680 Nightstalker BTK every week another fascinating author talking about the 32 00:01:24.680 --> 00:01:28.560 most shocking and infamous killers in true crime history. True 33 00:01:28.640 --> 00:01:40.879 Murder with your host journalist and author Dan Zupanski, The. 34 00:01:40.959 --> 00:01:44.200 Pulse pounding account of the first time in history that 35 00:01:44.280 --> 00:01:49.200 the FBI's Behavioral Science Unit created a psychological profile to 36 00:01:49.319 --> 00:01:54.599 catch a serial killer. On June twenty fifth, nineteen seventy three, 37 00:01:55.000 --> 00:01:57.599 a seven year old girl went missing from the Montana 38 00:01:57.680 --> 00:02:02.439 campground where her family was vacation. Somebody had slit open 39 00:02:02.519 --> 00:02:05.159 the back of their tent and snatched her from under 40 00:02:05.239 --> 00:02:09.719 their noses. None of them saw or heard anything. Susie 41 00:02:09.759 --> 00:02:13.960 Yeger had finished into thin air, plucked by a shadow. 42 00:02:14.759 --> 00:02:19.360 The largest manhunt in Montana's history ensued, led by the FBI. 43 00:02:20.080 --> 00:02:23.960 As days stretched into weeks and weeks into months. Special 44 00:02:23.960 --> 00:02:29.599 Agent Pete Dunbar attended a workshop at FBI headquarters in Quantico, Virginia, 45 00:02:30.319 --> 00:02:33.439 led by two agents who had hatched a radical new idea, 46 00:02:34.240 --> 00:02:37.520 what if criminals left the psychological trail that would lead 47 00:02:37.639 --> 00:02:42.599 us to them. Patrick mulaney, a trained psychologist, and Howard Tetton, 48 00:02:43.120 --> 00:02:47.319 a veteran criminologist, had created the Behavioral Science unit to 49 00:02:47.439 --> 00:02:53.639 explore this new voodoo they called Criminal Profiling. At Dunbar's request, 50 00:02:54.039 --> 00:02:57.319 Milani and tent and built the FBI's first profile of 51 00:02:57.360 --> 00:03:02.919 an unknown subject who had snatched Susie Jaeger and a 52 00:03:02.919 --> 00:03:06.520 few months later, a nineteen year old waitress. When a 53 00:03:06.560 --> 00:03:10.400 suspect was finally arrested, the profile fit him to a t. 54 00:03:11.840 --> 00:03:14.520 The book that we're featuring this evening is shadow Man, 55 00:03:15.280 --> 00:03:19.360 an Elusive Psycho Killer and the Birth of FBI Profiling, 56 00:03:19.919 --> 00:03:23.800 with my special guest journalist and author Ron Francell. Welcome 57 00:03:23.879 --> 00:03:25.599 back to the program, and thank you so much for 58 00:03:25.639 --> 00:03:27.360 this interview. Ron Francell. 59 00:03:28.039 --> 00:03:30.960 You bet Dan, I'm glad to be back. Over the years, 60 00:03:31.080 --> 00:03:35.240 I've been with you on a few books and it's 61 00:03:35.280 --> 00:03:39.719 always been a marvelous interview and it's I think it's 62 00:03:39.879 --> 00:03:43.080 you know, always found something that I hadn't thought about, 63 00:03:43.199 --> 00:03:44.719 So hats off to you. 64 00:03:45.199 --> 00:03:46.080 Thank you so much. 65 00:03:46.439 --> 00:03:46.639 Ron. 66 00:03:46.960 --> 00:03:50.280 You've been on the program right from the very beginning, 67 00:03:51.599 --> 00:03:54.919 right from all of your books we've covered. I think 68 00:03:55.000 --> 00:04:00.120 I believe. So congratulations on this book. 69 00:03:59.919 --> 00:04:02.800 You thank you. I'm excited about it. I think it's 70 00:04:02.840 --> 00:04:03.639 a great story. 71 00:04:04.240 --> 00:04:09.000 Absolutely. Why don't we just start talking about this story 72 00:04:09.120 --> 00:04:14.439 and introduce Manhattan, Montana. You say, population nine hundred and 73 00:04:14.719 --> 00:04:19.879 two thousand miles and many many light years away from 74 00:04:20.000 --> 00:04:21.680 the other Manhattan. 75 00:04:22.199 --> 00:04:23.439 Certainly is yeah. 76 00:04:23.920 --> 00:04:27.000 Talk about in you talk about in nineteen sixty four 77 00:04:27.079 --> 00:04:30.600 and nineteen sixty five, just to start to beginning story 78 00:04:31.000 --> 00:04:35.480 that someone had been mailing stray cats and puppies alive, 79 00:04:35.680 --> 00:04:37.240 the power poles and trees. 80 00:04:38.759 --> 00:04:42.319 Well, you know, here was this little dinky town in 81 00:04:42.360 --> 00:04:50.160 the middle of rural Montana, and nothing ever happened there. 82 00:04:50.360 --> 00:04:53.399 I mean that was the view of the people who 83 00:04:53.439 --> 00:04:57.000 lived in Manhattan, that this was a small town where 84 00:04:57.000 --> 00:05:01.279 the people were good, everybody knew everybody else, and nothing 85 00:05:01.360 --> 00:05:07.519 of importance ever happened. As we later figure out it 86 00:05:07.639 --> 00:05:18.240 might it might have indicated that there was something more, 87 00:05:18.360 --> 00:05:20.279 something scarier. Afoot. 88 00:05:20.800 --> 00:05:26.040 Let's talk about nineteen sixty seven March and a Bernie Pullman, 89 00:05:27.079 --> 00:05:29.639 a young man is on top of a bridge doing 90 00:05:29.680 --> 00:05:32.759 cannonballs into the Gallatin river below. 91 00:05:34.319 --> 00:05:39.480 Tell us about this. It was a typical steel bridge 92 00:05:39.720 --> 00:05:43.759 that you'd see and a lot of places still do actually. 93 00:05:46.079 --> 00:05:51.560 And then kids did what kids will do. And at 94 00:05:51.600 --> 00:05:56.600 the time, Bernie Pullman and his friend had gone out 95 00:05:56.639 --> 00:06:00.639 to the bridge and they'd climb up the girders and 96 00:06:00.879 --> 00:06:04.839 jump into the river and over and over and overgive 97 00:06:04.879 --> 00:06:11.600 it's just a typical little boy thing. While they're doing it, 98 00:06:11.639 --> 00:06:15.800 Bernie is up on top of the bridge and his 99 00:06:15.959 --> 00:06:21.759 friend notices a little Bernie cries out. He says, I've 100 00:06:21.759 --> 00:06:25.480 been shot, and he falls off the top of the 101 00:06:25.519 --> 00:06:31.560 bridge into the water and drifts away. The friend runs 102 00:06:31.759 --> 00:06:36.000 to the nearest farmhouse, which is I think more than 103 00:06:36.040 --> 00:06:41.560 a mile away, and by the time the sheriff's deputies arrived, 104 00:06:41.680 --> 00:06:46.439 nobody can find Bernie's body. It's been swept down the river. 105 00:06:47.759 --> 00:06:53.639 I think of several weeks that searchers went and looked 106 00:06:53.680 --> 00:06:57.160 for him. They couldn't. Even kids from the high school 107 00:06:57.839 --> 00:07:03.759 turned out in occasionally during that time and helped search. 108 00:07:03.920 --> 00:07:08.639 But it was about three weeks before they actually found 109 00:07:08.720 --> 00:07:14.199 him far down the river, and indeed he had been shot. 110 00:07:15.199 --> 00:07:19.720 What did the police They couldn't find who might have 111 00:07:19.759 --> 00:07:24.480 done this, but based on their assumptions, what did they 112 00:07:24.959 --> 00:07:26.759 deduce had happened that day? 113 00:07:27.279 --> 00:07:32.800 Well, remember, nothing ever happens in Manhattan, right, nobody been 114 00:07:33.600 --> 00:07:38.199 decades since the last murder had happened there, so it 115 00:07:38.240 --> 00:07:44.560 couldn't be a murder. The presumption by the deputies who 116 00:07:44.639 --> 00:07:49.120 investigated was that Bernie had just been hit by a 117 00:07:49.160 --> 00:07:54.720 stray shot, that somebody out there had been shooting at 118 00:07:54.720 --> 00:07:59.759 a rabbit or target practicing in one of those straight 119 00:08:00.160 --> 00:08:03.959 It's just happened to hit Bernie Pullman as he sat 120 00:08:04.000 --> 00:08:09.279 on that bridge. And ultimately the case was closed with 121 00:08:09.519 --> 00:08:13.759 that explanation that it had just been a stray shot, 122 00:08:14.000 --> 00:08:19.720 because nothing ever happens in Manhattan, you know, certainly not murders. 123 00:08:20.040 --> 00:08:25.759 Now you go to early nineteen sixty eight May and Bozeman, 124 00:08:25.839 --> 00:08:32.159 which is a nearby town. Sixth grader Michael Rainey on 125 00:08:32.279 --> 00:08:36.120 two hundred boy scouts are at a caparee in Missouri 126 00:08:36.720 --> 00:08:43.399 Headwaters State Park. They're thirty feet away from their adult supervisors. 127 00:08:43.600 --> 00:08:46.840 What happens to these two boys. 128 00:08:46.759 --> 00:08:52.080 Well, and not only that, but this park, it's actually 129 00:08:52.480 --> 00:08:58.279 farther out than Manhattan is in a rural area on 130 00:08:58.399 --> 00:09:01.600 the grass in this park, which is only a couple 131 00:09:01.639 --> 00:09:06.039 of akers. There were three more than three hundred young 132 00:09:06.159 --> 00:09:09.840 boy scouts in this camparee, and then all of their 133 00:09:10.000 --> 00:09:14.919 supervisors and troop leaders and that sort of thing, scout masters, 134 00:09:16.799 --> 00:09:21.080 And it was a weekend thing. The kids were gathering 135 00:09:21.279 --> 00:09:25.279 for some you know, to learn some skills that boy 136 00:09:25.360 --> 00:09:28.840 scouts do, but a great amount of their time was spent, 137 00:09:29.440 --> 00:09:35.480 you know, again, being little boys and screwing around and 138 00:09:35.559 --> 00:09:42.279 tussling and hiding and all the things. 139 00:09:42.519 --> 00:09:49.399 It's one night in there that these two boys, Michael 140 00:09:49.519 --> 00:09:53.440 Rainey and his tent mate go go to sleep in 141 00:09:54.080 --> 00:09:59.440 a pup tent among all these hundreds of other scouts 142 00:09:59.480 --> 00:10:06.080 literally five six feet from the nearest tents on either 143 00:10:06.200 --> 00:10:11.440 side and in front and in back. You have to 144 00:10:11.759 --> 00:10:16.720 imagine that they were all crammed into this park area, right, 145 00:10:17.360 --> 00:10:23.960 and it was just a lot of people. And the 146 00:10:24.000 --> 00:10:30.559 next morning, Michael Rainey's tent mat awakes and he's bleeding. 147 00:10:31.080 --> 00:10:33.960 At first, he thinks it's a bloody nose or something, 148 00:10:34.399 --> 00:10:37.960 but he then sees that it's far worse and that 149 00:10:38.720 --> 00:10:43.879 Michael is barely conscious. So he arouses their camp leader 150 00:10:44.000 --> 00:10:49.759 and many people in the camp who find Michael. He 151 00:10:49.840 --> 00:10:55.799 has apparently been stabbed, They get the local sheriff. He 152 00:10:55.840 --> 00:11:00.759 gets to the hospital where he lingers a while a 153 00:11:00.840 --> 00:11:04.919 couple of days and ultimately dies, and it's determined that 154 00:11:04.960 --> 00:11:08.639 he actually dies from a head injury. It all gets 155 00:11:08.840 --> 00:11:13.919 chalked up by these sheriff's investigators to a couple of 156 00:11:14.000 --> 00:11:18.759 boys you know, rough housing, and that he must have 157 00:11:18.960 --> 00:11:22.879 fallen and hit his head hadn't been reported because they 158 00:11:22.879 --> 00:11:26.200 were jacking around and didn't want to get in trouble, 159 00:11:26.679 --> 00:11:30.320 and that he ultimately died from it, so again an 160 00:11:30.360 --> 00:11:38.960 accidental death. For a time, his tentmate is the suspect, 161 00:11:39.080 --> 00:11:49.080 but ultimately the sheriff's investigators don't really believe that pursuing 162 00:11:49.200 --> 00:11:50.559 him in any. 163 00:11:50.360 --> 00:11:56.799 Way, you know, made sense, so it was all dropped again, 164 00:11:57.080 --> 00:12:06.879 closed as an accident, an accidental death, and the locals 165 00:12:06.919 --> 00:12:12.320 in the area were a little uncomfortable with that, only 166 00:12:12.399 --> 00:12:16.559 because they felt that the sheriff's department didn't do a 167 00:12:16.600 --> 00:12:24.600 great investigation because it ended unsatisfactorily. They kind of wanted 168 00:12:24.639 --> 00:12:28.879 to know who did it, but that was never determined, 169 00:12:29.679 --> 00:12:39.039 and it had the effect of the sheriff coming under 170 00:12:39.080 --> 00:12:45.000 some fire from locals for not doing a great job 171 00:12:45.679 --> 00:12:51.159 and to a sheriff in Montana who was generally elected. 172 00:12:52.960 --> 00:12:58.000 It became a political it became a hampered him politically. 173 00:12:58.600 --> 00:13:05.080 He didn't he didn't really get over that. He felt 174 00:13:05.120 --> 00:13:09.919 that it was unfair and he, at least to himself, 175 00:13:10.080 --> 00:13:13.759 determined to not be in that position again. 176 00:13:14.559 --> 00:13:18.679 Now you go, you take us, the reader, the listener 177 00:13:18.720 --> 00:13:23.080 to Headwaters State Park in Montana. Again. This is June 178 00:13:23.159 --> 00:13:26.960 twenty fifth, nineteen seventy three. Now, now, this family had 179 00:13:27.120 --> 00:13:33.080 come from Farmington and they were on a vacation. So 180 00:13:33.159 --> 00:13:36.879 this was a summer vacation with five kids. They left 181 00:13:36.879 --> 00:13:40.399 Michigan in a van and they'd come to this place. 182 00:13:40.519 --> 00:13:46.399 And Heidi, Susie Yeager's sister, and her shared a tent. 183 00:13:47.559 --> 00:13:52.720 Tell us about this vacation and what happens with Heidi 184 00:13:53.000 --> 00:13:53.840 and Susie. 185 00:13:54.320 --> 00:13:58.399 Sure, it was one of those idyllic family vacations where 186 00:13:58.960 --> 00:14:02.600 mom and dad, five kids pile into a couple of 187 00:14:02.679 --> 00:14:07.799 vehicles and head west and they're stopping all the all 188 00:14:07.840 --> 00:14:12.120 the sites and and taking care of, you know, taking 189 00:14:13.000 --> 00:14:17.200 taking in all the roadside attractions along the way. In fact, 190 00:14:17.279 --> 00:14:23.159 they're meeting up with grandparents there in Headwaters State Park 191 00:14:23.320 --> 00:14:27.039 in Montana, where they're all going to camp, and it's 192 00:14:27.120 --> 00:14:30.919 it's the summer and there are campers all around. It 193 00:14:31.080 --> 00:14:34.360 just happens to be the same part where Michael Rainey 194 00:14:35.080 --> 00:14:41.159 had been fatally injured five years before. They are in 195 00:14:41.200 --> 00:14:44.480 the park, they are camping. They mom and dad are 196 00:14:44.559 --> 00:14:50.519 sleeping in a van, Grandpa and grandma are sleeping in 197 00:14:50.559 --> 00:14:54.840 a trailer, and four of the five kids are in 198 00:14:54.879 --> 00:14:59.440 the tent and they're kind of packed in there as 199 00:14:59.480 --> 00:15:02.879 you can edge and in their sleeping bags, and but 200 00:15:02.919 --> 00:15:07.080 they're having fun. It's it's this grand adventure to them. 201 00:15:10.639 --> 00:15:17.039 Heidi awakes the next morning and feels a breeze and 202 00:15:18.159 --> 00:15:21.440 they are in a tent, and she thinks, well, that's 203 00:15:21.960 --> 00:15:25.240 that's odd. But maybe somebody got up in the middle 204 00:15:25.240 --> 00:15:29.320 of the night to go to the restroom and left 205 00:15:29.759 --> 00:15:33.519 left the door to the tent on the zip. So 206 00:15:33.559 --> 00:15:40.720 she got up to you know, see where the wind 207 00:15:40.879 --> 00:15:45.360 was coming from, and noticed that Susie, her little seven 208 00:15:45.440 --> 00:15:51.679 year old sister, was gone. At first, she thinks, well, 209 00:15:51.679 --> 00:15:56.639 maybe she has, you know, left for some reason, gone 210 00:15:56.679 --> 00:16:00.360 to the trailer or to the restroom or something. But 211 00:16:01.440 --> 00:16:06.440 then she sees a half moon shaped hole that's been 212 00:16:06.600 --> 00:16:10.519 cut in the back of the tent, she sees one 213 00:16:10.559 --> 00:16:18.919 of her little sister's stuffed animals outside, and suddenly she's 214 00:16:19.600 --> 00:16:24.559 she's aware that this isn't as innocent as maybe she 215 00:16:24.639 --> 00:16:28.600 first thought it was. She raises an alarm. Mom and 216 00:16:28.679 --> 00:16:33.879 Dad come out. They come to the same conclusion. Susie 217 00:16:33.919 --> 00:16:37.399 is missing. They see her nowhere around there. They call 218 00:16:37.559 --> 00:16:40.399 for her. Some of the people in the campground even help. 219 00:16:41.720 --> 00:16:46.519 The sheriff is called and the first deputy on the 220 00:16:46.559 --> 00:16:57.039 scene sees a trail of footprints leading away from the 221 00:16:57.080 --> 00:17:01.399 tent to cross the lawn to a park area, and 222 00:17:01.879 --> 00:17:07.720 these these footprints, this path is in the dew on 223 00:17:07.799 --> 00:17:13.920 the grass. But that is the only evidence they have 224 00:17:14.160 --> 00:17:20.799 at that time that Susie's been abducted, and the abductor 225 00:17:21.440 --> 00:17:26.519 left no other evidence that his deputy could see. And 226 00:17:26.640 --> 00:17:31.720 pretty soon the whole, the whole Sheriff's department is mobilized 227 00:17:31.759 --> 00:17:34.400 out there and they begin their investigation. 228 00:17:34.720 --> 00:17:39.160 You introduced two FBI guys in Bozeman, special agents, Pete 229 00:17:39.240 --> 00:17:43.720 Dunbar and Bill Terry, and also the involvement of Sheriff Anderson, 230 00:17:44.079 --> 00:17:47.559 which you say was still spooked by the unsolved murder 231 00:17:47.599 --> 00:17:48.759 of Michael Rainey. 232 00:17:48.759 --> 00:17:53.160 Exactly he it haunted him, and he knew that he 233 00:17:53.240 --> 00:17:56.920 could come under some of that same political pressure as 234 00:17:57.000 --> 00:18:01.920 he'd face before if he couldn't close this case satisfactorily. 235 00:18:02.039 --> 00:18:07.240 So yeah, he came on the scene, and of course 236 00:18:07.279 --> 00:18:11.000 he's a law man and he wants to solve the crime, 237 00:18:11.039 --> 00:18:14.680 but he also wants to avoid any of the political 238 00:18:15.559 --> 00:18:20.400 backlash that could come as it had before if he 239 00:18:20.440 --> 00:18:21.720 couldn't close this case. 240 00:18:22.119 --> 00:18:28.480 So enter Pete Dunbar from the FBI and talk about 241 00:18:28.480 --> 00:18:32.839 the early involvement and the investigation at that point. 242 00:18:33.480 --> 00:18:38.799 Well, it's important to note that the FBI was only 243 00:18:38.920 --> 00:18:43.400 involved because of the what's known in the United States 244 00:18:43.480 --> 00:18:46.680 it's the Little Lindbergh Law, and it's a law that 245 00:18:47.599 --> 00:18:55.480 was enacted after the kidnapping of Charles Lindbergh's child. Of course, 246 00:18:55.519 --> 00:18:58.559 we know how that turned out, and it was tragic. 247 00:18:59.680 --> 00:19:06.160 The action in Congress is the local law enforcement and 248 00:19:06.440 --> 00:19:10.559 jurisdictions and that sort of thing all played a role 249 00:19:10.720 --> 00:19:16.880 in the tragic outcome. So they required that the FBI 250 00:19:17.559 --> 00:19:25.200 get involved in many abduction type cases very quickly to 251 00:19:25.359 --> 00:19:30.079 avoid some of those tragedies. And that's what happened. It 252 00:19:30.279 --> 00:19:33.480 seemed clear at the time that they were dealing with 253 00:19:33.519 --> 00:19:39.039 a crime, not just Susie wandering way. So the FBI 254 00:19:39.400 --> 00:19:43.200 was called in. Pete Dunbar, who was the lead agent, 255 00:19:44.240 --> 00:19:47.640 was actually a Montana guy. He worked with the FBI 256 00:19:48.720 --> 00:19:55.039 in other places including Washington, DC, but he wanted at 257 00:19:55.079 --> 00:19:57.799 some point to come home to Montana because he had 258 00:19:57.920 --> 00:20:01.079 ill parents and he wanted to be He placed in 259 00:20:01.160 --> 00:20:05.240 a field office out there, but he was from that area. 260 00:20:06.440 --> 00:20:12.920 In fact, his family is I believe great grandfather had 261 00:20:13.200 --> 00:20:18.039 homesteaded that area and donated the land that the Headwaters 262 00:20:18.119 --> 00:20:22.599 State Park actually sat on. So he had this connection 263 00:20:24.960 --> 00:20:32.480 that was actually significant to the place. But he understood 264 00:20:32.480 --> 00:20:40.200 the people, he understood the landscape, and it made him invaluable. 265 00:20:41.640 --> 00:20:46.200 But here they are. They're launching this investigation literally the 266 00:20:46.400 --> 00:20:56.079 days as he disappears, and pretty soon they've mobilized National Guard. 267 00:20:56.559 --> 00:21:01.720 There's a convention of trailer in enthusiasts going on in 268 00:21:01.759 --> 00:21:05.079 the same county at the time. They get in law 269 00:21:05.599 --> 00:21:11.039 and it becomes the largest manhunt in Montana history. And 270 00:21:11.079 --> 00:21:15.440 there are literally hundreds, maybe more than a thousand people 271 00:21:15.519 --> 00:21:21.920 out there combing the area for miles and miles for 272 00:21:22.319 --> 00:21:26.960 looking for this little girl. But they find nothing. So 273 00:21:27.079 --> 00:21:33.559 the first few days close with nothing more than they 274 00:21:33.680 --> 00:21:37.240 had in the beginning, which was a little path of 275 00:21:37.440 --> 00:21:44.480 footprints in the dewy grass leading off to a parking area, 276 00:21:45.240 --> 00:21:49.839 and that was it. There was nothing else. So when 277 00:21:50.079 --> 00:21:54.839 they turned to the public for information, the public has 278 00:21:54.920 --> 00:21:59.240 a lot of information, or it thinks it does. They 279 00:21:59.319 --> 00:22:05.960 come for with sightings of hippies, you know, traveling across 280 00:22:06.000 --> 00:22:12.200 the county and strangers. And because the rural nature, the 281 00:22:12.319 --> 00:22:17.160 small town nature, couldn't believe there could be one of them, 282 00:22:17.720 --> 00:22:22.200 of course, so it had to be an outsider. You're 283 00:22:22.279 --> 00:22:27.519 also talking about a period of sort of great paranoia. 284 00:22:27.839 --> 00:22:33.119 The Manson trials had wrapped up only less than two 285 00:22:33.200 --> 00:22:41.279 years before Watergate was going on. The whole counterculture was happening, 286 00:22:41.440 --> 00:22:48.039 plus the protests against the Vietnam War. The world in 287 00:22:48.119 --> 00:22:55.319 the view of these rural Montanans, these small town farmers 288 00:22:55.440 --> 00:23:00.519 and ranchers and shopkeepers, was that the world was falling apart, 289 00:23:01.200 --> 00:23:07.680 and that made this all the worse that somebody would 290 00:23:07.759 --> 00:23:12.079 come into their county, uh snatch a little girl and 291 00:23:12.240 --> 00:23:20.119 disappear into the shadows. And so when when the FBI 292 00:23:20.359 --> 00:23:26.920 opens up the investigation to the public for for kids. 293 00:23:27.359 --> 00:23:33.440 There deluged with reports of these hippies that were seen 294 00:23:33.519 --> 00:23:37.559 at the gas station or the market. H There were 295 00:23:37.599 --> 00:23:44.480 more reports of Volkswagon vehicles of all sizes and kinds 296 00:23:44.519 --> 00:23:53.079 and colors than there were people with names, literally hundreds 297 00:23:52.400 --> 00:23:57.799 of reports, sometimes as little as I saw a long 298 00:23:57.920 --> 00:24:02.519 haired guy with a little girl who stopped and got 299 00:24:02.680 --> 00:24:08.759 gas in three Forks, Montana. So there was never enough 300 00:24:08.880 --> 00:24:14.400 to be able to identify anybody. State police were stopping 301 00:24:14.480 --> 00:24:20.200 people hundreds of miles away in little volkswagons with little girls, 302 00:24:20.640 --> 00:24:24.759 but coming up with nothing, and it soon became a 303 00:24:24.880 --> 00:24:31.160 very frustrating pursuit for Dunbar, for Bill Terry, for Sheriff Anderson, 304 00:24:31.240 --> 00:24:32.799 for everybody who worked. 305 00:24:32.480 --> 00:24:35.920 On You say, though, there was a tantalizing clue that 306 00:24:37.799 --> 00:24:41.480 came up about a week in to the search. Bozyman 307 00:24:41.599 --> 00:24:45.319 cop stumbled across an old Mica mine and there was 308 00:24:45.359 --> 00:24:48.480 a shack. What was found in the shack that was, 309 00:24:48.640 --> 00:24:50.880 as you write, a tantalizing clue. 310 00:24:51.200 --> 00:24:55.920 Well, there were a variety of items, but among them 311 00:24:56.039 --> 00:25:03.319 I believe was some drawings, Yes, some ribbons, crahunts, things 312 00:25:03.400 --> 00:25:09.279 like that, and it sort of screamed to be a 313 00:25:09.400 --> 00:25:18.319 place where a child had been kept, and it drew 314 00:25:18.400 --> 00:25:22.039 the attention to say the leads of Dunbar and Terry 315 00:25:22.160 --> 00:25:28.680 and the rest. But in time it was ultimately dismissed 316 00:25:28.720 --> 00:25:34.240 as a terrible coincidence, but that there was an innocent 317 00:25:34.559 --> 00:25:39.599 explanation for what they found at that mine. And then 318 00:25:39.640 --> 00:25:42.759 they're back to the square one. They're back to having 319 00:25:44.279 --> 00:25:49.799 no good leads, no witnesses, and of course no suspects, 320 00:25:50.000 --> 00:25:56.039 and things begin to get more frustrating by the day 321 00:25:56.119 --> 00:26:01.359 because of that, and it weighs heavily leap on Dunbar. 322 00:26:01.880 --> 00:26:04.920 Tell us about the call to Sheriff Brown about five 323 00:26:05.000 --> 00:26:09.200 months after from three Forks and what does the caller 324 00:26:09.279 --> 00:26:11.079 have to say and demand? 325 00:26:11.359 --> 00:26:18.839 The caller calls Deputy Brown's house while Deputy Brown is 326 00:26:18.880 --> 00:26:23.799 actually out trying to find the killer, so his wife 327 00:26:24.119 --> 00:26:27.559 answers the phone, and on the other end is a 328 00:26:27.599 --> 00:26:33.160 man who claims that he was the abductor of Susieger 329 00:26:33.839 --> 00:26:37.720 and he makes some demands about a ransom. I believe 330 00:26:37.799 --> 00:26:42.319 it was fifty thousand dollars. They wanted them to drop 331 00:26:42.400 --> 00:26:46.519 off the cash in a bathroom at Denver's train station, 332 00:26:48.319 --> 00:26:53.799 and that was it. So it was ultimately judged to 333 00:26:54.759 --> 00:27:00.599 maybe be a hoax, But he calls back and he 334 00:27:01.440 --> 00:27:06.160 eventually he's kind of angry that he's been blown off, 335 00:27:06.400 --> 00:27:09.119 and now somebody is starting to take it a little 336 00:27:09.160 --> 00:27:15.079 more seriously. But they really still have no, no clues 337 00:27:15.119 --> 00:27:20.880 to go on beyond that, no ransom is paid, No, 338 00:27:22.519 --> 00:27:27.799 the whole situation just falls apart. So they're again for 339 00:27:28.519 --> 00:27:32.240 a second time, or maybe a third time, back to 340 00:27:32.319 --> 00:27:39.799 square one. They don't They don't know almost everything. They 341 00:27:39.880 --> 00:27:42.480 do know almost nothing now. 342 00:27:43.039 --> 00:27:47.079 Just to talk about the FBI. Fifty years ago, the 343 00:27:47.200 --> 00:27:50.640 FBI advises the family to do what and to buy what. 344 00:27:51.240 --> 00:27:58.720 Well, the FBI is the FBI. They were kind of 345 00:27:58.759 --> 00:28:03.880 relying on their tried and true techniques. They are still 346 00:28:03.960 --> 00:28:10.039 the best investigative body in the world, certainly in the 347 00:28:10.160 --> 00:28:15.480 United States, and they proceed as the FBI did at 348 00:28:15.480 --> 00:28:19.440 the time and still do as a matter of fact, 349 00:28:19.759 --> 00:28:25.799 in many ways. Today they have more tools, high tech tools, 350 00:28:25.960 --> 00:28:32.400 everything from computer databases to DNA. Back then, forensics consisted 351 00:28:32.559 --> 00:28:38.720 of sort of primitive blood typing and fingerprints. They believed though, 352 00:28:38.799 --> 00:28:44.000 that the way to conduct an investigation was a lot 353 00:28:44.039 --> 00:28:50.519 of wandering around, talking to people and deducing certain things. 354 00:28:51.160 --> 00:28:55.279 But it was a gut level kind of approach. What 355 00:28:55.359 --> 00:29:00.960 they did tell su Dieger's family was to buy a 356 00:29:01.000 --> 00:29:05.440 simple tape recorder down at the radio shack and connected 357 00:29:05.559 --> 00:29:10.240 to the phone and see if this fellow who had 358 00:29:10.319 --> 00:29:16.279 called that had called a deputy in Montana, Mike called 359 00:29:16.440 --> 00:29:21.160 them in Michigan. It was it was a long shot, 360 00:29:21.359 --> 00:29:25.079 but they thought, let's do it. If nothing happens, no 361 00:29:25.160 --> 00:29:28.599 big deal. And so the family did. The family bought 362 00:29:28.640 --> 00:29:32.039 a little tape recorder and connected it to the phone, 363 00:29:32.119 --> 00:29:36.160 and you know, got a lot of it, captured a 364 00:29:36.240 --> 00:29:41.119 lot of calls that were you know, friends and neighbors, 365 00:29:41.279 --> 00:29:46.240 but they it was there. They connected it. 366 00:29:46.440 --> 00:29:51.559 You're right about September twenty fourth and Marietta, Susie's mother 367 00:29:51.799 --> 00:29:55.799 is out doing some errand to pick up her other son, Joey, 368 00:29:56.119 --> 00:29:58.880 and Danny was in charge. Sixteen year old Danny was 369 00:29:58.920 --> 00:30:03.039 in charge. A call came in. You write and describe 370 00:30:03.160 --> 00:30:05.799 this call. Tell us what is said in this call. 371 00:30:05.960 --> 00:30:11.400 Well, I don't have the exact words right now. Like 372 00:30:11.799 --> 00:30:16.319 a lot of the conversations that you'll read in the book, 373 00:30:16.400 --> 00:30:21.480 they come from actual transcripts in the FBI's case file, 374 00:30:21.559 --> 00:30:24.640 which I had access to at least to a great 375 00:30:24.720 --> 00:30:27.640 deal of it. He picks up the phone and there's 376 00:30:27.680 --> 00:30:31.039 a man on the other end, and the man has 377 00:30:31.200 --> 00:30:37.039 information that sounds like it's about Susie, and the son 378 00:30:37.279 --> 00:30:40.920 tries to keep him on the line, but he can't 379 00:30:40.960 --> 00:30:46.640 record it. He's in a different place. And mom comes 380 00:30:46.680 --> 00:30:51.839 home sort of as the phone call is ending. And 381 00:30:51.920 --> 00:30:59.640 now they believe that they might have talked to Susan's abductor, 382 00:31:00.319 --> 00:31:05.480 but again he had eluded them, but there was a 383 00:31:05.519 --> 00:31:10.200 feeling he might call back. It was just if it 384 00:31:10.240 --> 00:31:15.599 were him, and he had called a sheriff's deputy, you know, 385 00:31:16.480 --> 00:31:21.519 months before, and now was calling their house. They had 386 00:31:21.559 --> 00:31:27.119 a sense that he might call again, and so they 387 00:31:27.240 --> 00:31:32.319 waited on pins and needles for a good time, hoping 388 00:31:32.359 --> 00:31:35.480 that he would, and eventually that happened. 389 00:31:35.599 --> 00:31:39.880 You also write about February fifth, nineteen seventy four and 390 00:31:40.480 --> 00:31:45.920 Chevron McGinnis, five year old. After school, she's at her 391 00:31:45.920 --> 00:31:48.599 friend SEUs. Her mom calls and says suppers on, and 392 00:31:48.640 --> 00:31:52.119 so she heads home, pumps into a school friend, but 393 00:31:52.920 --> 00:31:55.079 in the end doesn't make it home at all. 394 00:31:55.839 --> 00:31:58.599 And she's a little girl. She's an outgoing little girl. 395 00:31:58.680 --> 00:32:02.079 She's full of energy, everybody knows her in the neighborhood. 396 00:32:02.200 --> 00:32:07.200 And this is after school, it's in daylight, it's winter time. 397 00:32:07.359 --> 00:32:11.839 But she's kind of wandering around the neighborhoods seeing all 398 00:32:11.880 --> 00:32:16.440 of her friends and finally needs to go home for dinner, 399 00:32:17.279 --> 00:32:21.119 and so she heads home. But that's the last time 400 00:32:21.160 --> 00:32:23.680 we see her. And this is all in Missoula, Montana, 401 00:32:23.759 --> 00:32:30.599