WEBVTT 1 00:00:21.519 --> 00:00:25.760 It's the Timmen Data Podcast Show. 2 00:00:25.800 --> 00:00:29.320 Don't you know that Bigfoot is on the Go. 3 00:00:30.199 --> 00:00:33.960 It's the Timpen Data Podcast Show. 4 00:00:34.560 --> 00:00:38.079 Don't you know that big boot is on the Go. 5 00:00:38.960 --> 00:00:42.679 It's the Den Data pot Cast Show. 6 00:00:52.200 --> 00:00:55.920 Hi, everybody, Welcome to the big Foot Podcast Show. 7 00:00:56.119 --> 00:00:59.719 I'm Gina Halleran and i am Tim Holland we are 8 00:00:59.799 --> 00:01:03.399 just real and thankful for each and every one of 9 00:01:03.479 --> 00:01:05.640 you joining us every week or every month. We're not 10 00:01:05.719 --> 00:01:09.760 really on every week, but and we can't wait to 11 00:01:10.079 --> 00:01:12.680 talk about our guest that's coming on. 12 00:01:12.840 --> 00:01:18.799 Who's just uh, just a just a per person who 13 00:01:19.040 --> 00:01:26.200 things going on from Bigfoot to butterflies and poetry and 14 00:01:26.319 --> 00:01:28.760 I'm sure I'm missing you know. He's also an author, 15 00:01:30.319 --> 00:01:33.560 you know, a PhD. Tons and tons of stuff that 16 00:01:33.640 --> 00:01:35.959 we're going to get into. And we're just, you know, again, 17 00:01:36.079 --> 00:01:37.519 really excited to have him on. 18 00:01:38.120 --> 00:01:42.359 And and he's no rookie to this this Bigfoot things. Now, 19 00:01:42.439 --> 00:01:43.000 he's been around. 20 00:01:43.040 --> 00:01:45.439 Now, he's been around for a long time, like somebody 21 00:01:45.519 --> 00:01:49.159 who uh you know has had uh you know, contact 22 00:01:49.239 --> 00:01:54.000 with Grover Krantz. So you know, from all those guys 23 00:01:54.079 --> 00:01:56.120 back in the day that I think they call them 24 00:01:56.159 --> 00:02:01.200 the the four Horsemen, of Bigfoot. Bob definitely knows them. 25 00:02:01.280 --> 00:02:07.840 So we would definitely like to introduce doctor Robert Michael Pyle. Hey, Bob, 26 00:02:08.000 --> 00:02:09.360 how are you welcome? 27 00:02:11.400 --> 00:02:13.280 Dan Show? Do you love that? 28 00:02:14.159 --> 00:02:16.599 One of my one of my dear friends and her husband, 29 00:02:16.960 --> 00:02:18.759 uh recorded. 30 00:02:18.319 --> 00:02:18.879 That for us. 31 00:02:19.360 --> 00:02:21.439 We love it. It's just a lot, it's fun, a 32 00:02:21.479 --> 00:02:21.919 lot of fun. 33 00:02:22.000 --> 00:02:23.879 So thank you. So yeah. 34 00:02:23.960 --> 00:02:26.240 So here we have you, and there's just so much 35 00:02:26.280 --> 00:02:28.000 about you, Bob, So we're gonna have to try to 36 00:02:28.039 --> 00:02:30.199 get this all in. One of the first things that 37 00:02:30.199 --> 00:02:32.479 I'm noticing here, and I hope I'm pronouncing this right, 38 00:02:33.039 --> 00:02:36.240 is that you are a lepidio terrorist. 39 00:02:37.159 --> 00:02:40.599 That's closest lepidopteristist. 40 00:02:41.439 --> 00:02:42.280 You got to get the key. 41 00:02:43.240 --> 00:02:48.639 The lepidos scales or shingles, okay, the scally winged insects 42 00:02:48.680 --> 00:02:51.280 and butterflies mons okay. 43 00:02:51.039 --> 00:02:56.919 So are those the only scally winged insects they are? Okay? 44 00:02:57.400 --> 00:03:01.400 They what about dragonflies have a little dragons. 45 00:03:01.400 --> 00:03:05.319 If you look at their wings, they're naked, they're clear memories. Okay, 46 00:03:06.680 --> 00:03:09.719 has the scales removed and they lose them all through 47 00:03:09.759 --> 00:03:12.879 their life. So sometimes a really old butterfly or certain 48 00:03:13.000 --> 00:03:17.280 species that lack very many scales are transparent. You've seen 49 00:03:17.680 --> 00:03:21.080 pictures of the glass wing butterflies, and they don't have scales, 50 00:03:21.159 --> 00:03:23.680 so you can look right through them. But most of 51 00:03:23.719 --> 00:03:26.400 the flies have their wings covered with these little shingles 52 00:03:26.639 --> 00:03:29.599 that give them their color. Some are metallic and iridescent 53 00:03:30.240 --> 00:03:33.719 their structural scales, and others are pigmented like a skin. 54 00:03:34.120 --> 00:03:36.199 Most of them are like that. So I did my 55 00:03:36.840 --> 00:03:39.759 doctor work, and most of my scientific work has been 56 00:03:39.840 --> 00:03:42.080 with the ecology of rare butterflies. 57 00:03:43.319 --> 00:03:48.360 So do you, And so then obviously you're also an author. 58 00:03:48.960 --> 00:03:51.280 Now were you also a professor? 59 00:03:52.039 --> 00:03:55.199 Did you ever teach? Oh? Yes, I've taught at a 60 00:03:55.319 --> 00:03:58.280 number of colleges and universities. I was a professor at 61 00:03:58.599 --> 00:04:04.120 Evergreen State College, Utah State University, and the University of Montana, 62 00:04:04.520 --> 00:04:06.840 and I've taught and lectured at many many of the 63 00:04:06.960 --> 00:04:12.240 colleges on a drop in basis. But I went free 64 00:04:12.319 --> 00:04:16.240 dance back in nineteen eighty two, realizing that a full 65 00:04:16.279 --> 00:04:19.079 time academic career would not give me the time I 66 00:04:19.199 --> 00:04:21.879 wanted in the field and for writing. I'm a writer. 67 00:04:21.959 --> 00:04:25.920 I've got thirty books of nonfiction fiction and poetry and 68 00:04:28.040 --> 00:04:31.360 of science. But I wanted that time in the field. 69 00:04:31.399 --> 00:04:34.480 I wanted the independence and I didn't like committee meetings, 70 00:04:36.079 --> 00:04:38.800 so I went independent. I became an independent scholar in 71 00:04:38.920 --> 00:04:42.399 nineteen eighty two and a free dance. And I've been teaching, 72 00:04:42.519 --> 00:04:46.199 lecturing and doing a certain amount of contract biology, but 73 00:04:46.600 --> 00:04:51.519 mostly my teaching, lecturing and writing and the writing. It's 74 00:04:51.560 --> 00:04:53.920 hard to make a full living on writing, as any 75 00:04:53.959 --> 00:04:57.920 of your outs, I'll tell you, but that's been a 76 00:04:57.959 --> 00:05:02.360 big Those have been my big triangle, the my tripod, writing, 77 00:05:02.519 --> 00:05:03.480 teaching and lecturing. 78 00:05:04.120 --> 00:05:08.360 And You've lived across the country, traveled the world, I mean, 79 00:05:08.399 --> 00:05:10.000 even over on the East Coast. We live on the 80 00:05:10.000 --> 00:05:11.759 East Coast. We're in Delaware. I know you lived in 81 00:05:11.800 --> 00:05:13.120 Connecticut at one point, didn't you. 82 00:05:13.560 --> 00:05:15.759 Yes, I did my doctor work at Yale, so I 83 00:05:16.279 --> 00:05:19.920 lived in Connecticut for several years. I grew up in Colorado. 84 00:05:20.480 --> 00:05:23.519 I've lived in Papua New Guinea, in California and England 85 00:05:23.720 --> 00:05:26.879 several years. But for forty six years I've made my 86 00:05:27.040 --> 00:05:32.160 primary domicile here in southwest Washington, right in the epicenter 87 00:05:32.360 --> 00:05:35.279 of you know whose countryside. We do know who? 88 00:05:35.920 --> 00:05:38.000 We were there last a year, a little over a 89 00:05:38.040 --> 00:05:40.160 year ago. We'll talk about that too, because I'm going 90 00:05:40.199 --> 00:05:42.959 to ask you how close we were, but we'll get 91 00:05:43.000 --> 00:05:46.839 to that here shortly. So do you have a favorite book? 92 00:05:46.879 --> 00:05:49.560 I mean, you've all authored. I knew you're well over twenty. 93 00:05:49.600 --> 00:05:52.279 I didn't realize it's over thirty outside of the one 94 00:05:52.600 --> 00:05:53.920 that we're going to talk about today. 95 00:05:54.839 --> 00:05:58.480 Do you have a favorite of my books? Yes, that's 96 00:05:58.480 --> 00:06:02.120 psych asking for your favorite childhood course, the prettiest butterfy, 97 00:06:02.240 --> 00:06:06.360 the most beautiful city. But in some ways I could 98 00:06:06.399 --> 00:06:08.480 make a case for every single one of my books 99 00:06:09.040 --> 00:06:13.079 for myself. But in many ways, Where Bigfoot Walks Crossing 100 00:06:13.160 --> 00:06:16.199 the Dark Divide is my favorite, not only because it 101 00:06:16.319 --> 00:06:19.000 drew me very close to the land, which is what 102 00:06:19.120 --> 00:06:22.439 I'm all about, but because I'm so intrigued with our 103 00:06:22.560 --> 00:06:27.279 common love of Sasquatch, and because of the people that's 104 00:06:27.279 --> 00:06:31.560 brought me in touch with, not necessarily the toxic battles 105 00:06:31.600 --> 00:06:34.040 in the Bigfoot field. Haven't enjoyed that part so much, 106 00:06:34.079 --> 00:06:38.600 and also see seeing people's lives ruined by Bigfoot fever, 107 00:06:38.759 --> 00:06:42.279 which can run rampant in a person's life, of course, 108 00:06:43.360 --> 00:06:48.120 but many other aspects I've enjoyed dearly. Have. I love 109 00:06:48.199 --> 00:06:50.600 my book Winter Green and It's daughter which is called 110 00:06:51.319 --> 00:06:54.519 sky Time in Gray's River. In many ways, my novel 111 00:06:55.000 --> 00:06:59.120 Magdalena Mountain is a favorite because it took me deep 112 00:06:59.160 --> 00:07:03.680 into my Colorado Mountain territory with another butterfly, another creature 113 00:07:03.720 --> 00:07:08.040 I love, called the Magdalena Alpine, a black butterfly that 114 00:07:08.199 --> 00:07:10.439 lives in the Colorado Rockies that became a character in 115 00:07:10.519 --> 00:07:13.519 the book. And just recently a few weeks ago, I 116 00:07:13.639 --> 00:07:17.240 returned from Chile on a research trip of having to 117 00:07:17.319 --> 00:07:21.639 do with a silver butterfly, entirely silver on the upper side, 118 00:07:21.959 --> 00:07:25.000 like quicksilver, like the Kroman of fifty four Chevy is 119 00:07:25.040 --> 00:07:28.480 that silver? Now that the character in a sequel to 120 00:07:28.560 --> 00:07:32.879 Magdalena Mountain that I'm working on now called the Silver Satyr. 121 00:07:33.360 --> 00:07:36.360 But so every book of mine, several of my poetry 122 00:07:36.399 --> 00:07:39.759 books are very dear to my heart. However, I have 123 00:07:39.879 --> 00:07:42.639 to say Where Bigfoot Walks is probably my favorite book. 124 00:07:43.439 --> 00:07:45.040 Yeah, and that's this. This is the book that we're 125 00:07:45.079 --> 00:07:47.480 going to be talking about today. It's a really big 126 00:07:47.560 --> 00:07:49.519 book too. It's a lot of us in here. 127 00:07:50.360 --> 00:07:53.399 It's it's a substantial book. I have to say. It's 128 00:07:53.480 --> 00:07:58.800 a I don't like to speak highly of my own writing. 129 00:07:58.920 --> 00:08:01.439 That's a I do believe that pride goes before a fall. 130 00:08:01.720 --> 00:08:03.920 And I don't say this in pride, but in many 131 00:08:03.959 --> 00:08:07.120 ways I think it is the most substantial in Bigfoot books. 132 00:08:07.279 --> 00:08:09.399 And there are several very good big Foot books out there. 133 00:08:09.680 --> 00:08:12.560 I love John Binder and Agels. Grover's was very helpful, 134 00:08:12.839 --> 00:08:16.079 Jeff Meldrums has profound Lots of others Peter Burns were 135 00:08:16.120 --> 00:08:20.720 the best campfire reads by far, But my book is 136 00:08:20.759 --> 00:08:24.240 the one big Foot book that combines. It was written 137 00:08:24.279 --> 00:08:28.040 by both a trainedee College as biologists scientist in the field, 138 00:08:28.560 --> 00:08:30.920 as well as a literary writer, and it's the one 139 00:08:30.959 --> 00:08:33.440 book that tries to combine those two and does not 140 00:08:33.840 --> 00:08:38.399 try to either prove, disprove find or not find it, 141 00:08:38.679 --> 00:08:41.440 but it goes into the whole phenomenon as to what 142 00:08:41.639 --> 00:08:46.240 it implies in our culture. And I think and I 143 00:08:46.720 --> 00:08:49.639 didn't know all the four horsemen, so I didn't know 144 00:08:49.679 --> 00:08:52.600 Bob Timmus, the other guys I knew quite well, Peter 145 00:08:52.720 --> 00:08:57.080 I knew very well, John Green, I even knew Brenada, 146 00:08:57.200 --> 00:09:01.720 and of course Grover and I've had a long history 147 00:09:02.159 --> 00:09:05.440 with this and a lot of Native American connection which 148 00:09:05.480 --> 00:09:09.840 goes deeply into the book and so if you'll excuse me, 149 00:09:09.960 --> 00:09:12.759 I do recommend the book. The book is published, it's 150 00:09:12.799 --> 00:09:16.480 currently in print from Counterpoint Press. Is cheap, not an 151 00:09:16.519 --> 00:09:20.879 expensive book. And as that marvelous quotation from Jane Goodall 152 00:09:20.960 --> 00:09:22.960 in the backt that she gave me, I love that. 153 00:09:23.399 --> 00:09:27.559 Can I read that? Yes, so she says, I like 154 00:09:27.679 --> 00:09:31.360 the book very much. Only I don't know why you 155 00:09:31.440 --> 00:09:35.559 were so circumspect to me, the evidence seems overwhelming. 156 00:09:36.399 --> 00:09:37.360 And that's Jane Goodall. 157 00:09:37.639 --> 00:09:39.840 I love so how how and I know the answer 158 00:09:39.879 --> 00:09:42.559 book for the audience. How did you meet Jane Goodall? 159 00:09:43.440 --> 00:09:46.480 Well, we had the same publisher and the same editor. 160 00:09:46.840 --> 00:09:50.039 I published a number of books with the grand old 161 00:09:50.120 --> 00:09:53.519 publisher Houghton Mifflin, which sadly is becoming saint now and 162 00:09:53.600 --> 00:09:57.879 the modern pressures at publishing, and Jane was writing her 163 00:09:57.919 --> 00:10:01.399 books for Houghton Mifflin too, and the same editor, a 164 00:10:01.519 --> 00:10:06.559 master natural history editor named Harry Foster. And I read her, 165 00:10:06.759 --> 00:10:10.080 she read me, probably not as much as I read her, 166 00:10:10.440 --> 00:10:13.799 but we got together over that. And then when I 167 00:10:13.919 --> 00:10:19.440 first met her, it was at a gathering put together 168 00:10:19.600 --> 00:10:24.799 by the Orion Society publishs Oriyon magazine, and I did 169 00:10:24.840 --> 00:10:28.120 a lot of traveling readings for them, and I published 170 00:10:28.159 --> 00:10:31.480 a column in their magazine for ten years, running fifty 171 00:10:31.519 --> 00:10:34.039 two Straight Call Magazine. 172 00:10:34.120 --> 00:10:35.039 Is it still around? 173 00:10:35.519 --> 00:10:38.639 It is? Yeah, didn't know my column anymore. I had 174 00:10:38.679 --> 00:10:40.879 to quit when I left to do a year long 175 00:10:40.960 --> 00:10:44.440 field trip for another book. But it's still there. Is 176 00:10:44.440 --> 00:10:48.840 still a very beautiful magazine with no advertising anyway. Jane 177 00:10:48.960 --> 00:10:52.720 received one of their very vaunted awards called the John 178 00:10:52.960 --> 00:10:55.960 Hay Medal. I was given to people like the poet 179 00:10:56.039 --> 00:11:02.960 Gary Snyder, EO. Wilson, the great biologist Peter Mathis, and 180 00:11:03.320 --> 00:11:05.919 people like the people of that caliber, Wendell Berry and 181 00:11:06.000 --> 00:11:08.519 so on. Well, Jane Goodall got it, and they always 182 00:11:08.559 --> 00:11:12.000 gave the award on their home ground, except we couldn't 183 00:11:12.000 --> 00:11:13.519 go to gone before us to give it to her. 184 00:11:13.960 --> 00:11:17.000 So we did it at the Jane Goodall Institute in Washington. 185 00:11:17.519 --> 00:11:20.200 That's where I first met her. And when she gave 186 00:11:20.240 --> 00:11:23.240 me that quote, she said, Bob, why didn't you have 187 00:11:23.360 --> 00:11:26.039 me blurbed the book? I said, Jane, We've tried, but 188 00:11:26.120 --> 00:11:30.399 we couldn't reach you in Gombi though, so E. L. 189 00:11:30.519 --> 00:11:33.639 Wilson, this is this. I think I read a book 190 00:11:33.799 --> 00:11:36.720 by him and he was I think I did. He 191 00:11:36.799 --> 00:11:40.240 wrote a book where it was a letter to a pastor. Yes, 192 00:11:40.840 --> 00:11:43.039 and oh my gosh, it was an amazing book. 193 00:11:43.200 --> 00:11:46.240 Well, Wendell Berry, both of them received the John Hay Metal. 194 00:11:46.440 --> 00:11:49.679 Both great for writers, but on different ends of the 195 00:11:50.399 --> 00:11:55.240 spiritual spectrum. And EO believes that, and I knew him well. 196 00:11:55.360 --> 00:11:59.360 He was I found a deser See Society for Invertebrate Conservation. 197 00:11:59.679 --> 00:12:01.600 He was as president of that for ten years. I 198 00:12:01.759 --> 00:12:06.320 visited him several times at Harvard and elsewhere. And EO 199 00:12:07.080 --> 00:12:13.039 believed that ultimately everything was We're in a material world 200 00:12:13.440 --> 00:12:16.240 and it can it's all subject to the laws of 201 00:12:16.279 --> 00:12:20.039 physics and ultimate human understanding if we ever get that far. 202 00:12:22.039 --> 00:12:25.639 Wendow believed in a spiritual component, of a spiritual plane, 203 00:12:26.279 --> 00:12:30.559 and that there were things beyond our reach and our understanding. 204 00:12:30.919 --> 00:12:34.360 And they didn't come to blows over that, but Wendell 205 00:12:35.000 --> 00:12:36.960 got They were good friends. But then when we got 206 00:12:36.960 --> 00:12:41.480 pretty upset, EO's book called Concilience and Uh, he wrote 207 00:12:41.519 --> 00:12:45.440 a counterblast to it. And then this other book was 208 00:12:46.159 --> 00:12:49.559 EO's response to that, in the form of a letter 209 00:12:49.720 --> 00:12:51.399 to a preacher whom he had known. 210 00:12:51.840 --> 00:12:59.840 And he was very you know, kind to the past 211 00:13:00.120 --> 00:13:02.320 and the way he was writing, you know, from a 212 00:13:02.399 --> 00:13:04.120 scientist's point of view. I think one of the things 213 00:13:04.159 --> 00:13:06.840 that stuck out to me most was this comment that 214 00:13:06.960 --> 00:13:11.399 he made that why would God be so cruel as 215 00:13:11.480 --> 00:13:16.240 to sprinkle the earth with so much evidence countering what 216 00:13:17.039 --> 00:13:17.919 the Bible says. 217 00:13:18.879 --> 00:13:22.200 Yeah, it was not an unkind at all, and he 218 00:13:22.279 --> 00:13:25.600 was a very loving man. I think they reconciled before. 219 00:13:26.919 --> 00:13:30.919 I hope so. But he didn't want to challenge anybody's 220 00:13:31.000 --> 00:13:35.799 faith anymore. When I taught environmental writing in Logan, Utah, 221 00:13:35.919 --> 00:13:38.799 Utah State, all of my undergraduates were Mormon. The really 222 00:13:39.000 --> 00:13:41.440 is I told him, I'm not going to challenge your faith. 223 00:13:41.519 --> 00:13:44.639 That's ridiculous. There are many wonderful things about it, But 224 00:13:44.759 --> 00:13:48.759 I will ask you to think beyond the constraints perhaps 225 00:13:48.799 --> 00:13:51.080 of your upbringing, to see the wider world that you 226 00:13:51.519 --> 00:13:53.399 might not have been exposed to. And that's what he 227 00:13:53.679 --> 00:13:56.960 tried to do. He didn't try to convince anybody of anything, 228 00:13:57.720 --> 00:14:01.559 not like some of the stridently atheist writers who want 229 00:14:01.600 --> 00:14:03.960 to make you believe otherwise. He had no interest in that. 230 00:14:04.320 --> 00:14:09.320 He was an evangelical Southern background. He saw the value 231 00:14:09.399 --> 00:14:12.720 of church in those people's lives. He just wanted to 232 00:14:13.240 --> 00:14:16.840 open people's eyes to the great, to the creation in 233 00:14:16.960 --> 00:14:20.080 a sense as it can be interpreted through through science. 234 00:14:20.480 --> 00:14:23.840 And Wendell I think finally got that. I hope the 235 00:14:23.960 --> 00:14:26.200 same way I feel about Bigfoot. I'm not trying to 236 00:14:26.320 --> 00:14:30.679 convince anyone or advocate for it. I advocate for an 237 00:14:30.679 --> 00:14:31.279 open mind. 238 00:14:32.399 --> 00:14:35.480 Well, there was never any bickering in the big Foot world, right, 239 00:14:37.600 --> 00:14:38.399 And being a good. 240 00:14:38.279 --> 00:14:41.840 Friend of Peter's Peter Burn one of my informants for 241 00:14:41.919 --> 00:14:44.000 the book and one of my mentors, but also dear 242 00:14:44.080 --> 00:14:48.159 dear friend, Peter of course got everybody's wroth. And that 243 00:14:48.320 --> 00:14:51.759 went back to the fact that the Tom Slick, the 244 00:14:52.879 --> 00:14:58.000 the heavenly named oil man from Texas, Tom Slick the 245 00:14:58.039 --> 00:14:59.399 oil Oh. 246 00:14:59.360 --> 00:15:01.480 You know, he that name out for himself. 247 00:15:02.879 --> 00:15:08.080 Only. But of course Peter is early Yetti expedition and 248 00:15:08.679 --> 00:15:11.000 in the Himalaya. And then he brought Peter to be 249 00:15:11.120 --> 00:15:15.600 the first the leader of the first Big American Bigfoot expedition. Well, 250 00:15:15.840 --> 00:15:19.559 these North Americans didn't like taking orders from a young, 251 00:15:19.679 --> 00:15:24.240 upstart brit And who was you know, a showman too 252 00:15:24.320 --> 00:15:28.679 and very charismatic, and enmity began. Then that never did 253 00:15:28.759 --> 00:15:31.919 get over with those guys are all dead now and 254 00:15:32.080 --> 00:15:35.320 so we hope we can get beyond those. Uh so, yeah, 255 00:15:35.960 --> 00:15:36.240 I had. 256 00:15:36.840 --> 00:15:39.480 I was fortunate enough to interview Peter from my book 257 00:15:39.519 --> 00:15:43.320 before he you know, recently before he passed, and that 258 00:15:43.399 --> 00:15:45.480 was just just such a blessing to be able to 259 00:15:45.480 --> 00:15:47.320 get him on, get him on, you have an interview 260 00:15:47.360 --> 00:15:47.799 with him. 261 00:15:47.679 --> 00:15:51.080 So absolutely, and I brought Peter back to Yale to 262 00:15:51.120 --> 00:15:55.279 give his seminar. I was so impressed by him when 263 00:15:55.320 --> 00:15:57.200 I when I met him in seventy five, I seing 264 00:15:57.279 --> 00:16:01.080 my my butterfy research out in Washington, and I was 265 00:16:01.120 --> 00:16:04.840 already involved in Echtin Bigfoot, but I was so impressed 266 00:16:04.840 --> 00:16:06.919 by him when I first met him, and his his 267 00:16:07.679 --> 00:16:11.480 ethic which was, when in doubt throw it out, he 268 00:16:11.559 --> 00:16:14.399 took it basically didn't have a scientific background. It was 269 00:16:14.440 --> 00:16:21.039 a superb naturalist, which there are, and he and I'd 270 00:16:21.159 --> 00:16:23.159 like this approach. So I actually brought him back to 271 00:16:23.200 --> 00:16:26.039 give a seminar Yale, and I had to get permission 272 00:16:26.080 --> 00:16:28.240 to the vice president of the university to do that, 273 00:16:28.840 --> 00:16:31.720 but when he did, I saw this room full of 274 00:16:32.559 --> 00:16:39.240 of eminent Yale pedeontologists, primatologists, anthropologists, biologists who had come 275 00:16:39.360 --> 00:16:43.639 to mock, but they didn't mock. They were scratching their heads. 276 00:16:44.120 --> 00:16:48.679 Maybe maybe this too when they when they Peter. He 277 00:16:48.759 --> 00:16:52.559 didn't make any converts, nor was he trying to. But 278 00:16:52.720 --> 00:16:59.720 he did open some very skeptical, emminent scientific minds that day, 279 00:17:00.159 --> 00:17:03.679 and to see that was profound to me and very 280 00:17:03.799 --> 00:17:07.680 very impressive. Peter was a very substantial figure in spite 281 00:17:07.720 --> 00:17:11.160 of some of the derogation he got from from other quarters. 282 00:17:11.400 --> 00:17:14.279 But the fact that he opened those minds, that that's 283 00:17:14.359 --> 00:17:16.640 when I said, that's what I wanted to do if 284 00:17:16.640 --> 00:17:19.279 I forget to write about Bigfoot is open minds. 285 00:17:19.920 --> 00:17:25.079 Yeah, so you know, okay, I'm sorry, Bob. So so 286 00:17:25.680 --> 00:17:30.839 was it you were studying of butterflies and what was 287 00:17:30.880 --> 00:17:32.480 the other insect. 288 00:17:34.599 --> 00:17:34.960 And more? 289 00:17:35.079 --> 00:17:38.599 Well, yeah, okay, I always called that moths nighttime butterflies. 290 00:17:38.759 --> 00:17:43.480 That's what several languages do in German. In German they're 291 00:17:43.519 --> 00:17:47.359 called the nacht Falters, which means the night fires, Falter 292 00:17:47.519 --> 00:17:51.480 means butterfly or schmetter lane. Not very pretty work, but 293 00:17:51.599 --> 00:17:58.160 they called them falters and nacht falters. Yes, that's makes sense. 294 00:17:59.000 --> 00:18:03.359 They are all more a fancy group of mods e 295 00:18:03.480 --> 00:18:07.319 vault to fly by day and consequently more colorful in 296 00:18:07.519 --> 00:18:10.960 order to pull all kinds of pranks on birds. 297 00:18:11.839 --> 00:18:14.839 So it was this like, it was your studying of 298 00:18:15.440 --> 00:18:19.720 the moths and butterflies that brought you out obviously into 299 00:18:19.880 --> 00:18:22.920 nature and in the woods. Is that how your love 300 00:18:23.000 --> 00:18:26.599 for your interest for bigfoot came about in a way. 301 00:18:26.799 --> 00:18:30.680 I mean, my first grade love was seashells. Right above 302 00:18:30.759 --> 00:18:34.920 me here, I've got a shelf of butterflies. That I 303 00:18:35.000 --> 00:18:37.599 mean a shelf of seashells. It's a very shelf my 304 00:18:37.720 --> 00:18:40.119 mother built me when I was seven or eight years old, 305 00:18:40.440 --> 00:18:42.880 and I have the very same seashells on there that 306 00:18:43.039 --> 00:18:47.200 I collected between the ages of seven and eleven. But 307 00:18:47.319 --> 00:18:50.359 I lived in Colorado, which was a dumb place to 308 00:18:50.480 --> 00:18:55.160 be obsessed with seashells. I was slow study, and I 309 00:18:55.599 --> 00:18:58.480 finally began to figure that out about the age of eleven. 310 00:19:00.079 --> 00:19:02.799 That summer, my step brother said, I'm going to go 311 00:19:02.960 --> 00:19:08.279 catch bugs for but for scouts, you know, get a meribadge. 312 00:19:08.400 --> 00:19:09.799 Do you want to come with me? And I said yeah, 313 00:19:10.880 --> 00:19:13.920 and I did. I started to see butterflies, and that 314 00:19:14.119 --> 00:19:17.680 day we went went out and I became entranced with them. 315 00:19:18.359 --> 00:19:21.160 My step brother quit the next day, and I never did. 316 00:19:21.240 --> 00:19:24.759 I'm still doing it seven years later or sixty some 317 00:19:24.960 --> 00:19:29.160 years later. But through butterflies and seashells, they were a 318 00:19:29.240 --> 00:19:31.880 window on the world on nature, and I became a 319 00:19:32.039 --> 00:19:35.559 very general naturalist. I've tried to study all groups to 320 00:19:35.720 --> 00:19:39.240 some extent. I'm very poor naturalists in many areas, but 321 00:19:39.880 --> 00:19:43.200 I tried to know something about most living things and 322 00:19:43.680 --> 00:19:46.559 a lot about some of them in relative terms. And 323 00:19:47.279 --> 00:19:51.200 nobody is a truly deep naturalist. But I aspire toward 324 00:19:51.279 --> 00:19:55.359 being deeper every day. Now that that set me up 325 00:19:55.440 --> 00:19:59.559 for it. But then in the late sixties for early seventies, 326 00:20:00.079 --> 00:20:03.519 got to take a series of classes on Northwest Native 327 00:20:03.880 --> 00:20:12.000 American art and culture. So three classes Northwest Indian two 328 00:20:12.079 --> 00:20:16.279 dimensional Art, three dimensional art and Dance and tradition by 329 00:20:16.400 --> 00:20:20.200 Bill Holm, the great Northwest Indian authority at the University 330 00:20:20.240 --> 00:20:25.319 of Washington. Still alive. Still there, Oh guy, he's got 331 00:20:25.400 --> 00:20:26.519 to be well into his nineties. 332 00:20:26.960 --> 00:20:27.599 Good for him. 333 00:20:28.640 --> 00:20:33.799 And yes, well, his classes were some of the best 334 00:20:33.839 --> 00:20:36.039 classes I ever took in anything in my life. But 335 00:20:36.400 --> 00:20:40.799 one thing he did impress upon us was that every 336 00:20:41.079 --> 00:20:44.880 single Northwest Indian group from the Athabascans all the way 337 00:20:44.960 --> 00:20:49.000 up in Alaska down to the Hoopahs and below in California, 338 00:20:49.880 --> 00:20:53.279 Iraqian and body else, all the Simchions and Bellabella's and 339 00:20:53.319 --> 00:20:57.039 Bellakulas and quak Uts and IDAs, kit lops and everybody 340 00:20:57.039 --> 00:21:02.240 else in between. They all had profound Bigfoot legend stories, 341 00:21:03.680 --> 00:21:10.559 whether it was sasclats Oma, so many different names, but 342 00:21:10.680 --> 00:21:14.160 they're all the same thing. And not only did they 343 00:21:14.200 --> 00:21:17.960 have legends and stories, but in their deep spiritual world 344 00:21:18.359 --> 00:21:22.319 of seats the sea serpent and the thunderbird and everything 345 00:21:22.359 --> 00:21:26.559 else like that, but also they believed in them to 346 00:21:26.720 --> 00:21:31.640 a person as actual physical members of their local fauna 347 00:21:32.119 --> 00:21:35.799 like skunk, weasel, bear and raven and frog and toad 348 00:21:36.279 --> 00:21:40.240 and butterfly. So that impressed me. And then later so 349 00:21:40.319 --> 00:21:40.680 I'm sorry. 350 00:21:40.720 --> 00:21:43.880 So the bigfoot was regarded differently than the thunderbird, is 351 00:21:43.920 --> 00:21:44.359 what you're. 352 00:21:44.200 --> 00:21:48.759 Saying, That they regard as being really resident in the 353 00:21:49.480 --> 00:21:52.799 in the spirit world. Now the two are permeable, and 354 00:21:52.880 --> 00:21:54.799 they go back and forth, and it's changing and so on, 355 00:21:55.119 --> 00:21:59.559 of course. But but there are entities that they know. 356 00:21:59.759 --> 00:22:03.599 They do not see them in daily life on the 357 00:22:03.680 --> 00:22:06.920 res in the woods, in the ocean. They don't see 358 00:22:06.960 --> 00:22:10.799 cc the sea serpent anymore. They don't see the thunderbird, 359 00:22:11.000 --> 00:22:15.599 and there's some other figures many, but Bigfoot, along with 360 00:22:16.319 --> 00:22:19.599 toads and weasels and bears they see, they believe they're 361 00:22:19.640 --> 00:22:23.079 actual animals. And in fact, I've had many occasions with 362 00:22:23.279 --> 00:22:26.160 Native Americans. Once I finally learned to shut up and 363 00:22:26.559 --> 00:22:30.599 learn the polity, the politests of how you learn, how 364 00:22:30.640 --> 00:22:33.359 you speak with people about their culture don't come on 365 00:22:33.519 --> 00:22:38.119 as as appropriating and trying to rip off, as so 366 00:22:38.240 --> 00:22:44.319 many big Foot people, wannabes and amateurs have done. Then oh, 367 00:22:44.720 --> 00:22:46.839 let me not put down the word amateur. It just 368 00:22:46.920 --> 00:22:50.480 means one who loves you know at all. But I 369 00:22:50.599 --> 00:22:52.559 mean a lot of big from people who are getting 370 00:22:52.599 --> 00:22:55.400 into and don't know much. We'll go down to the hoopas, 371 00:22:55.519 --> 00:22:59.599 especially near where the Patterson Gimmwin film was taken, and they, oh, 372 00:22:59.720 --> 00:23:02.640 tell me your stories. Yeah, like that's gonna work, you know. 373 00:23:04.079 --> 00:23:09.440 But once I learned how to listen and gently inquire, 374 00:23:10.000 --> 00:23:15.079 I've been given many gifts, including a previously untold, unpublished 375 00:23:15.359 --> 00:23:18.359 Bigfoot story from the Kidlop that's in my book, and 376 00:23:18.519 --> 00:23:21.680 the reviewer in the New York Times book review said 377 00:23:21.720 --> 00:23:24.640 that that was the best Native American story he heard 378 00:23:24.920 --> 00:23:26.880 and probably the best thing in the book, you know, 379 00:23:27.319 --> 00:23:32.319 so that impressed me deeply. And then that and then 380 00:23:32.359 --> 00:23:36.200 there was quite a flurry of activity in the early 381 00:23:36.279 --> 00:23:42.759 seventies with the National Wildlife Federation expedition, some others, some recordings, 382 00:23:43.240 --> 00:23:46.799 lots of tracks, and then meeting Peter and those those 383 00:23:47.240 --> 00:23:50.400 that little triad of events that put me on the 384 00:23:51.079 --> 00:23:54.480 on the on the trail of deeper bigfoot studies. And 385 00:23:54.519 --> 00:23:58.920 then the good luck of getting the Gougunheim Fellowship, and 386 00:23:59.000 --> 00:24:03.720 then the book contract allowed me to devote a year 387 00:24:03.799 --> 00:24:07.240 of my life to big foot studies. And then the 388 00:24:07.359 --> 00:24:11.359 time in the Dark Divide that became the not only 389 00:24:11.480 --> 00:24:16.440 the powering climax to the book, but also you know, 390 00:24:16.559 --> 00:24:21.279 the book was recently adapted into a feature feature film 391 00:24:21.680 --> 00:24:22.839 that won It was a. 392 00:24:22.880 --> 00:24:27.079 Good movie movie. It was it was different than the book. 393 00:24:27.279 --> 00:24:31.480 Very different from the book. I'm very different. David Cross 394 00:24:31.480 --> 00:24:33.880 plays me in a very different way. I'm a different dog. 395 00:24:33.920 --> 00:24:37.119 While did to Play You. 396 00:24:38.240 --> 00:24:41.640 David Cross played me. Uh. The Deborah Messing played my 397 00:24:41.759 --> 00:24:46.160 late wife, Yea. She was absolutely superb. David was superb too. 398 00:24:46.680 --> 00:24:49.240 He plays me as beginning as Dufus in the woods 399 00:24:49.519 --> 00:24:52.279 because I thought about it. You know, that's kind of 400 00:24:52.279 --> 00:24:56.319 hard on the ego. But any quest story like Cheryl 401 00:24:56.400 --> 00:25:01.119