Speaker 1: It's the Timmen Data Podcast Show.
Speaker 2: Don't you know that Bigfoot is on the Go.
Speaker 1: It's the Timpen Data Podcast Show.
Speaker 2: Don't you know that big boot is on the Go.
Speaker 1: It's the Den Data pot Cast Show.
Speaker 3: Hi, everybody, Welcome to the big Foot Podcast Show.
Speaker 1: I'm Gina Halleran and i am Tim Holland we are
Speaker 1: just real and thankful for each and every one of
Speaker 1: you joining us every week or every month. We're not
Speaker 1: really on every week, but and we can't wait to
Speaker 1: talk about our guest that's coming on.
Speaker 3: Who's just uh, just a just a per person who
Speaker 3: things going on from Bigfoot to butterflies and poetry and
Speaker 3: I'm sure I'm missing you know. He's also an author,
Speaker 3: you know, a PhD. Tons and tons of stuff that
Speaker 3: we're going to get into. And we're just, you know, again,
Speaker 3: really excited to have him on.
Speaker 1: And and he's no rookie to this this Bigfoot things. Now,
Speaker 1: he's been around.
Speaker 3: Now, he's been around for a long time, like somebody
Speaker 3: who uh you know has had uh you know, contact
Speaker 3: with Grover Krantz. So you know, from all those guys
Speaker 3: back in the day that I think they call them
Speaker 3: the the four Horsemen, of Bigfoot. Bob definitely knows them.
Speaker 3: So we would definitely like to introduce doctor Robert Michael Pyle. Hey, Bob,
Speaker 3: how are you welcome?
Speaker 2: Dan Show? Do you love that?
Speaker 3: One of my one of my dear friends and her husband,
Speaker 3: uh recorded.
Speaker 2: That for us.
Speaker 1: We love it. It's just a lot, it's fun, a
Speaker 1: lot of fun.
Speaker 2: So thank you. So yeah.
Speaker 3: So here we have you, and there's just so much
Speaker 3: about you, Bob, So we're gonna have to try to
Speaker 3: get this all in. One of the first things that
Speaker 3: I'm noticing here, and I hope I'm pronouncing this right,
Speaker 3: is that you are a lepidio terrorist.
Speaker 2: That's closest lepidopteristist.
Speaker 3: You got to get the key.
Speaker 2: The lepidos scales or shingles, okay, the scally winged insects
Speaker 2: and butterflies mons okay.
Speaker 3: So are those the only scally winged insects they are? Okay?
Speaker 3: They what about dragonflies have a little dragons.
Speaker 2: If you look at their wings, they're naked, they're clear memories. Okay,
Speaker 2: has the scales removed and they lose them all through
Speaker 2: their life. So sometimes a really old butterfly or certain
Speaker 2: species that lack very many scales are transparent. You've seen
Speaker 2: pictures of the glass wing butterflies, and they don't have scales,
Speaker 2: so you can look right through them. But most of
Speaker 2: the flies have their wings covered with these little shingles
Speaker 2: that give them their color. Some are metallic and iridescent
Speaker 2: their structural scales, and others are pigmented like a skin.
Speaker 2: Most of them are like that. So I did my
Speaker 2: doctor work, and most of my scientific work has been
Speaker 2: with the ecology of rare butterflies.
Speaker 3: So do you, And so then obviously you're also an author.
Speaker 3: Now were you also a professor?
Speaker 2: Did you ever teach? Oh? Yes, I've taught at a
Speaker 2: number of colleges and universities. I was a professor at
Speaker 2: Evergreen State College, Utah State University, and the University of Montana,
Speaker 2: and I've taught and lectured at many many of the
Speaker 2: colleges on a drop in basis. But I went free
Speaker 2: dance back in nineteen eighty two, realizing that a full
Speaker 2: time academic career would not give me the time I
Speaker 2: wanted in the field and for writing. I'm a writer.
Speaker 2: I've got thirty books of nonfiction fiction and poetry and
Speaker 2: of science. But I wanted that time in the field.
Speaker 2: I wanted the independence and I didn't like committee meetings,
Speaker 2: so I went independent. I became an independent scholar in
Speaker 2: nineteen eighty two and a free dance. And I've been teaching,
Speaker 2: lecturing and doing a certain amount of contract biology, but
Speaker 2: mostly my teaching, lecturing and writing and the writing. It's
Speaker 2: hard to make a full living on writing, as any
Speaker 2: of your outs, I'll tell you, but that's been a
Speaker 2: big Those have been my big triangle, the my tripod, writing,
Speaker 2: teaching and lecturing.
Speaker 1: And You've lived across the country, traveled the world, I mean,
Speaker 1: even over on the East Coast. We live on the
Speaker 1: East Coast. We're in Delaware. I know you lived in
Speaker 1: Connecticut at one point, didn't you.
Speaker 2: Yes, I did my doctor work at Yale, so I
Speaker 2: lived in Connecticut for several years. I grew up in Colorado.
Speaker 2: I've lived in Papua New Guinea, in California and England
Speaker 2: several years. But for forty six years I've made my
Speaker 2: primary domicile here in southwest Washington, right in the epicenter
Speaker 2: of you know whose countryside. We do know who?
Speaker 1: We were there last a year, a little over a
Speaker 1: year ago. We'll talk about that too, because I'm going
Speaker 1: to ask you how close we were, but we'll get
Speaker 1: to that here shortly. So do you have a favorite book?
Speaker 1: I mean, you've all authored. I knew you're well over twenty.
Speaker 1: I didn't realize it's over thirty outside of the one
Speaker 1: that we're going to talk about today.
Speaker 2: Do you have a favorite of my books? Yes, that's
Speaker 2: psych asking for your favorite childhood course, the prettiest butterfy,
Speaker 2: the most beautiful city. But in some ways I could
Speaker 2: make a case for every single one of my books
Speaker 2: for myself. But in many ways, Where Bigfoot Walks Crossing
Speaker 2: the Dark Divide is my favorite, not only because it
Speaker 2: drew me very close to the land, which is what
Speaker 2: I'm all about, but because I'm so intrigued with our
Speaker 2: common love of Sasquatch, and because of the people that's
Speaker 2: brought me in touch with, not necessarily the toxic battles
Speaker 2: in the Bigfoot field. Haven't enjoyed that part so much,
Speaker 2: and also see seeing people's lives ruined by Bigfoot fever,
Speaker 2: which can run rampant in a person's life, of course,
Speaker 2: but many other aspects I've enjoyed dearly. Have. I love
Speaker 2: my book Winter Green and It's daughter which is called
Speaker 2: sky Time in Gray's River. In many ways, my novel
Speaker 2: Magdalena Mountain is a favorite because it took me deep
Speaker 2: into my Colorado Mountain territory with another butterfly, another creature
Speaker 2: I love, called the Magdalena Alpine, a black butterfly that
Speaker 2: lives in the Colorado Rockies that became a character in
Speaker 2: the book. And just recently a few weeks ago, I
Speaker 2: returned from Chile on a research trip of having to
Speaker 2: do with a silver butterfly, entirely silver on the upper side,
Speaker 2: like quicksilver, like the Kroman of fifty four Chevy is
Speaker 2: that silver? Now that the character in a sequel to
Speaker 2: Magdalena Mountain that I'm working on now called the Silver Satyr.
Speaker 2: But so every book of mine, several of my poetry
Speaker 2: books are very dear to my heart. However, I have
Speaker 2: to say Where Bigfoot Walks is probably my favorite book.
Speaker 3: Yeah, and that's this. This is the book that we're
Speaker 3: going to be talking about today. It's a really big
Speaker 3: book too. It's a lot of us in here.
Speaker 2: It's it's a substantial book. I have to say. It's
Speaker 2: a I don't like to speak highly of my own writing.
Speaker 2: That's a I do believe that pride goes before a fall.
Speaker 2: And I don't say this in pride, but in many
Speaker 2: ways I think it is the most substantial in Bigfoot books.
Speaker 2: And there are several very good big Foot books out there.
Speaker 2: I love John Binder and Agels. Grover's was very helpful,
Speaker 2: Jeff Meldrums has profound Lots of others Peter Burns were
Speaker 2: the best campfire reads by far, But my book is
Speaker 2: the one big Foot book that combines. It was written
Speaker 2: by both a trainedee College as biologists scientist in the field,
Speaker 2: as well as a literary writer, and it's the one
Speaker 2: book that tries to combine those two and does not
Speaker 2: try to either prove, disprove find or not find it,
Speaker 2: but it goes into the whole phenomenon as to what
Speaker 2: it implies in our culture. And I think and I
Speaker 2: didn't know all the four horsemen, so I didn't know
Speaker 2: Bob Timmus, the other guys I knew quite well, Peter
Speaker 2: I knew very well, John Green, I even knew Brenada,
Speaker 2: and of course Grover and I've had a long history
Speaker 2: with this and a lot of Native American connection which
Speaker 2: goes deeply into the book and so if you'll excuse me,
Speaker 2: I do recommend the book. The book is published, it's
Speaker 2: currently in print from Counterpoint Press. Is cheap, not an
Speaker 2: expensive book. And as that marvelous quotation from Jane Goodall
Speaker 2: in the backt that she gave me, I love that.
Speaker 3: Can I read that? Yes, so she says, I like
Speaker 3: the book very much. Only I don't know why you
Speaker 3: were so circumspect to me, the evidence seems overwhelming.
Speaker 2: And that's Jane Goodall.
Speaker 1: I love so how how and I know the answer
Speaker 1: book for the audience. How did you meet Jane Goodall?
Speaker 2: Well, we had the same publisher and the same editor.
Speaker 2: I published a number of books with the grand old
Speaker 2: publisher Houghton Mifflin, which sadly is becoming saint now and
Speaker 2: the modern pressures at publishing, and Jane was writing her
Speaker 2: books for Houghton Mifflin too, and the same editor, a
Speaker 2: master natural history editor named Harry Foster. And I read her,
Speaker 2: she read me, probably not as much as I read her,
Speaker 2: but we got together over that. And then when I
Speaker 2: first met her, it was at a gathering put together
Speaker 2: by the Orion Society publishs Oriyon magazine, and I did
Speaker 2: a lot of traveling readings for them, and I published
Speaker 2: a column in their magazine for ten years, running fifty
Speaker 2: two Straight Call Magazine.
Speaker 3: Is it still around?
Speaker 2: It is? Yeah, didn't know my column anymore. I had
Speaker 2: to quit when I left to do a year long
Speaker 2: field trip for another book. But it's still there. Is
Speaker 2: still a very beautiful magazine with no advertising anyway. Jane
Speaker 2: received one of their very vaunted awards called the John
Speaker 2: Hay Medal. I was given to people like the poet
Speaker 2: Gary Snyder, EO. Wilson, the great biologist Peter Mathis, and
Speaker 2: people like the people of that caliber, Wendell Berry and
Speaker 2: so on. Well, Jane Goodall got it, and they always
Speaker 2: gave the award on their home ground, except we couldn't
Speaker 2: go to gone before us to give it to her.
Speaker 2: So we did it at the Jane Goodall Institute in Washington.
Speaker 2: That's where I first met her. And when she gave
Speaker 2: me that quote, she said, Bob, why didn't you have
Speaker 2: me blurbed the book? I said, Jane, We've tried, but
Speaker 2: we couldn't reach you in Gombi though, so E. L.
Speaker 3: Wilson, this is this. I think I read a book
Speaker 3: by him and he was I think I did. He
Speaker 3: wrote a book where it was a letter to a pastor. Yes,
Speaker 3: and oh my gosh, it was an amazing book.
Speaker 2: Well, Wendell Berry, both of them received the John Hay Metal.
Speaker 2: Both great for writers, but on different ends of the
Speaker 2: spiritual spectrum. And EO believes that, and I knew him well.
Speaker 2: He was I found a deser See Society for Invertebrate Conservation.
Speaker 2: He was as president of that for ten years. I
Speaker 2: visited him several times at Harvard and elsewhere. And EO
Speaker 2: believed that ultimately everything was We're in a material world
Speaker 2: and it can it's all subject to the laws of
Speaker 2: physics and ultimate human understanding if we ever get that far.
Speaker 2: Wendow believed in a spiritual component, of a spiritual plane,
Speaker 2: and that there were things beyond our reach and our understanding.
Speaker 2: And they didn't come to blows over that, but Wendell
Speaker 2: got They were good friends. But then when we got
Speaker 2: pretty upset, EO's book called Concilience and Uh, he wrote
Speaker 2: a counterblast to it. And then this other book was
Speaker 2: EO's response to that, in the form of a letter
Speaker 2: to a preacher whom he had known.
Speaker 3: And he was very you know, kind to the past
Speaker 3: and the way he was writing, you know, from a
Speaker 3: scientist's point of view. I think one of the things
Speaker 3: that stuck out to me most was this comment that
Speaker 3: he made that why would God be so cruel as
Speaker 3: to sprinkle the earth with so much evidence countering what
Speaker 3: the Bible says.
Speaker 2: Yeah, it was not an unkind at all, and he
Speaker 2: was a very loving man. I think they reconciled before.
Speaker 2: I hope so. But he didn't want to challenge anybody's
Speaker 2: faith anymore. When I taught environmental writing in Logan, Utah,
Speaker 2: Utah State, all of my undergraduates were Mormon. The really
Speaker 2: is I told him, I'm not going to challenge your faith.
Speaker 2: That's ridiculous. There are many wonderful things about it, But
Speaker 2: I will ask you to think beyond the constraints perhaps
Speaker 2: of your upbringing, to see the wider world that you
Speaker 2: might not have been exposed to. And that's what he
Speaker 2: tried to do. He didn't try to convince anybody of anything,
Speaker 2: not like some of the stridently atheist writers who want
Speaker 2: to make you believe otherwise. He had no interest in that.
Speaker 2: He was an evangelical Southern background. He saw the value
Speaker 2: of church in those people's lives. He just wanted to
Speaker 2: open people's eyes to the great, to the creation in
Speaker 2: a sense as it can be interpreted through through science.
Speaker 2: And Wendell I think finally got that. I hope the
Speaker 2: same way I feel about Bigfoot. I'm not trying to
Speaker 2: convince anyone or advocate for it. I advocate for an
Speaker 2: open mind.
Speaker 1: Well, there was never any bickering in the big Foot world, right,
Speaker 1: And being a good.
Speaker 2: Friend of Peter's Peter Burn one of my informants for
Speaker 2: the book and one of my mentors, but also dear
Speaker 2: dear friend, Peter of course got everybody's wroth. And that
Speaker 2: went back to the fact that the Tom Slick, the
Speaker 2: the heavenly named oil man from Texas, Tom Slick the
Speaker 2: oil Oh.
Speaker 3: You know, he that name out for himself.
Speaker 2: Only. But of course Peter is early Yetti expedition and
Speaker 2: in the Himalaya. And then he brought Peter to be
Speaker 2: the first the leader of the first Big American Bigfoot expedition. Well,
Speaker 2: these North Americans didn't like taking orders from a young,
Speaker 2: upstart brit And who was you know, a showman too
Speaker 2: and very charismatic, and enmity began. Then that never did
Speaker 2: get over with those guys are all dead now and
Speaker 2: so we hope we can get beyond those. Uh so, yeah,
Speaker 2: I had.
Speaker 1: I was fortunate enough to interview Peter from my book
Speaker 1: before he you know, recently before he passed, and that
Speaker 1: was just just such a blessing to be able to
Speaker 1: get him on, get him on, you have an interview
Speaker 1: with him.
Speaker 2: So absolutely, and I brought Peter back to Yale to
Speaker 2: give his seminar. I was so impressed by him when
Speaker 2: I when I met him in seventy five, I seing
Speaker 2: my my butterfy research out in Washington, and I was
Speaker 2: already involved in Echtin Bigfoot, but I was so impressed
Speaker 2: by him when I first met him, and his his
Speaker 2: ethic which was, when in doubt throw it out, he
Speaker 2: took it basically didn't have a scientific background. It was
Speaker 2: a superb naturalist, which there are, and he and I'd
Speaker 2: like this approach. So I actually brought him back to
Speaker 2: give a seminar Yale, and I had to get permission
Speaker 2: to the vice president of the university to do that,
Speaker 2: but when he did, I saw this room full of
Speaker 2: of eminent Yale pedeontologists, primatologists, anthropologists, biologists who had come
Speaker 2: to mock, but they didn't mock. They were scratching their heads.
Speaker 2: Maybe maybe this too when they when they Peter. He
Speaker 2: didn't make any converts, nor was he trying to. But
Speaker 2: he did open some very skeptical, emminent scientific minds that day,
Speaker 2: and to see that was profound to me and very
Speaker 2: very impressive. Peter was a very substantial figure in spite
Speaker 2: of some of the derogation he got from from other quarters.
Speaker 2: But the fact that he opened those minds, that that's
Speaker 2: when I said, that's what I wanted to do if
Speaker 2: I forget to write about Bigfoot is open minds.
Speaker 3: Yeah, so you know, okay, I'm sorry, Bob. So so
Speaker 3: was it you were studying of butterflies and what was
Speaker 3: the other insect.
Speaker 2: And more?
Speaker 3: Well, yeah, okay, I always called that moths nighttime butterflies.
Speaker 2: That's what several languages do in German. In German they're
Speaker 2: called the nacht Falters, which means the night fires, Falter
Speaker 2: means butterfly or schmetter lane. Not very pretty work, but
Speaker 2: they called them falters and nacht falters. Yes, that's makes sense.
Speaker 2: They are all more a fancy group of mods e
Speaker 2: vault to fly by day and consequently more colorful in
Speaker 2: order to pull all kinds of pranks on birds.
Speaker 3: So it was this like, it was your studying of
Speaker 3: the moths and butterflies that brought you out obviously into
Speaker 3: nature and in the woods. Is that how your love
Speaker 3: for your interest for bigfoot came about in a way.
Speaker 2: I mean, my first grade love was seashells. Right above
Speaker 2: me here, I've got a shelf of butterflies. That I
Speaker 2: mean a shelf of seashells. It's a very shelf my
Speaker 2: mother built me when I was seven or eight years old,
Speaker 2: and I have the very same seashells on there that
Speaker 2: I collected between the ages of seven and eleven. But
Speaker 2: I lived in Colorado, which was a dumb place to
Speaker 2: be obsessed with seashells. I was slow study, and I
Speaker 2: finally began to figure that out about the age of eleven.
Speaker 2: That summer, my step brother said, I'm going to go
Speaker 2: catch bugs for but for scouts, you know, get a meribadge.
Speaker 2: Do you want to come with me? And I said yeah,
Speaker 2: and I did. I started to see butterflies, and that
Speaker 2: day we went went out and I became entranced with them.
Speaker 2: My step brother quit the next day, and I never did.
Speaker 2: I'm still doing it seven years later or sixty some
Speaker 2: years later. But through butterflies and seashells, they were a
Speaker 2: window on the world on nature, and I became a
Speaker 2: very general naturalist. I've tried to study all groups to
Speaker 2: some extent. I'm very poor naturalists in many areas, but
Speaker 2: I tried to know something about most living things and
Speaker 2: a lot about some of them in relative terms. And
Speaker 2: nobody is a truly deep naturalist. But I aspire toward
Speaker 2: being deeper every day. Now that that set me up
Speaker 2: for it. But then in the late sixties for early seventies,
Speaker 2: got to take a series of classes on Northwest Native
Speaker 2: American art and culture. So three classes Northwest Indian two
Speaker 2: dimensional Art, three dimensional art and Dance and tradition by
Speaker 2: Bill Holm, the great Northwest Indian authority at the University
Speaker 2: of Washington. Still alive. Still there, Oh guy, he's got
Speaker 2: to be well into his nineties.
Speaker 3: Good for him.
Speaker 2: And yes, well, his classes were some of the best
Speaker 2: classes I ever took in anything in my life. But
Speaker 2: one thing he did impress upon us was that every
Speaker 2: single Northwest Indian group from the Athabascans all the way
Speaker 2: up in Alaska down to the Hoopahs and below in California,
Speaker 2: Iraqian and body else, all the Simchions and Bellabella's and
Speaker 2: Bellakulas and quak Uts and IDAs, kit lops and everybody
Speaker 2: else in between. They all had profound Bigfoot legend stories,
Speaker 2: whether it was sasclats Oma, so many different names, but
Speaker 2: they're all the same thing. And not only did they
Speaker 2: have legends and stories, but in their deep spiritual world
Speaker 2: of seats the sea serpent and the thunderbird and everything
Speaker 2: else like that, but also they believed in them to
Speaker 2: a person as actual physical members of their local fauna
Speaker 2: like skunk, weasel, bear and raven and frog and toad
Speaker 2: and butterfly. So that impressed me. And then later so
Speaker 2: I'm sorry.
Speaker 3: So the bigfoot was regarded differently than the thunderbird, is
Speaker 3: what you're.
Speaker 2: Saying, That they regard as being really resident in the
Speaker 2: in the spirit world. Now the two are permeable, and
Speaker 2: they go back and forth, and it's changing and so on,
Speaker 2: of course. But but there are entities that they know.
Speaker 2: They do not see them in daily life on the
Speaker 2: res in the woods, in the ocean. They don't see
Speaker 2: cc the sea serpent anymore. They don't see the thunderbird,
Speaker 2: and there's some other figures many, but Bigfoot, along with
Speaker 2: toads and weasels and bears they see, they believe they're
Speaker 2: actual animals. And in fact, I've had many occasions with
Speaker 2: Native Americans. Once I finally learned to shut up and
Speaker 2: learn the polity, the politests of how you learn, how
Speaker 2: you speak with people about their culture don't come on
Speaker 2: as as appropriating and trying to rip off, as so
Speaker 2: many big Foot people, wannabes and amateurs have done. Then oh,
Speaker 2: let me not put down the word amateur. It just
Speaker 2: means one who loves you know at all. But I
Speaker 2: mean a lot of big from people who are getting
Speaker 2: into and don't know much. We'll go down to the hoopas,
Speaker 2: especially near where the Patterson Gimmwin film was taken, and they, oh,
Speaker 2: tell me your stories. Yeah, like that's gonna work, you know.
Speaker 2: But once I learned how to listen and gently inquire,
Speaker 2: I've been given many gifts, including a previously untold, unpublished
Speaker 2: Bigfoot story from the Kidlop that's in my book, and
Speaker 2: the reviewer in the New York Times book review said
Speaker 2: that that was the best Native American story he heard
Speaker 2: and probably the best thing in the book, you know,
Speaker 2: so that impressed me deeply. And then that and then
Speaker 2: there was quite a flurry of activity in the early
Speaker 2: seventies with the National Wildlife Federation expedition, some others, some recordings,
Speaker 2: lots of tracks, and then meeting Peter and those those
Speaker 2: that little triad of events that put me on the
Speaker 2: on the on the trail of deeper bigfoot studies. And
Speaker 2: then the good luck of getting the Gougunheim Fellowship, and
Speaker 2: then the book contract allowed me to devote a year
Speaker 2: of my life to big foot studies. And then the
Speaker 2: time in the Dark Divide that became the not only
Speaker 2: the powering climax to the book, but also you know,
Speaker 2: the book was recently adapted into a feature feature film
Speaker 2: that won It was a.
Speaker 3: Good movie movie. It was it was different than the book.
Speaker 2: Very different from the book. I'm very different. David Cross
Speaker 2: plays me in a very different way. I'm a different dog.
Speaker 3: While did to Play You.
Speaker 2: David Cross played me. Uh. The Deborah Messing played my
Speaker 2: late wife, Yea. She was absolutely superb. David was superb too.
Speaker 2: He plays me as beginning as Dufus in the woods
Speaker 2: because I thought about it. You know, that's kind of
Speaker 2: hard on the ego. But any quest story like Cheryl
Speaker 2: Strayed and Wilder Bill Brison and the Appellation or the
Speaker 2: Magic Fluid, any quest story that the fool's journey in
Speaker 2: the terror, the hero's quest in the archetypes has got
Speaker 2: to start out with the hero being dumb stupid so
Speaker 2: that you can go out and encounter and learn. It's
Speaker 2: the same way in the Indian stories. The Hamitica candidate
Speaker 2: goes out from the Quakiutle stupid into the woods, encounters
Speaker 2: back back wallynuxyway, the cannibal spirit comes back and goes
Speaker 2: through the dances in the Longhouse and then emerges as
Speaker 2: hamats a chief imbued with the power of Bookless the
Speaker 2: male Bigfoot, and Toni Kuah, the female Bigfoot, out whose
Speaker 2: mouth he crawls at the end of the ceremony, Sony
Speaker 2: the filmmaker is just doing what needed to be done
Speaker 2: by making me a dope in the woods, and it's funny.
Speaker 2: David's hilarious, And then through the process he learns it's
Speaker 2: just how he compressed forty years of my learning woodcraft
Speaker 2: into one big hike. And there are a couple other
Speaker 2: changes about the movie. He veers More tried the butterflies
Speaker 2: a little more away from Bigfoot so it wouldn't be
Speaker 2: consigned as just another silly Bigfoot movie. We got a
Speaker 2: much bigger audiance that way. Shifted the date of my
Speaker 2: wife Tea's illness and death so that it becomes a
Speaker 2: grief trip for me as well as Bigfoot and Butterfly trip.
Speaker 2: So all that was strategic and I think well done.
Speaker 2: The movie is beautiful, superb. The sound is a wonderful soundtrack,
Speaker 2: and the cast is superb. So I had to recommend
Speaker 2: it streaming. In fact, I think it's free on Prime
Speaker 2: right now for the first time if you're a member.
Speaker 3: We are, but we've already seen it.
Speaker 1: Oh yeah, so I got so many questions you want.
Speaker 3: To go next on that?
Speaker 2: One quick thing for people want to see It's called
Speaker 2: Dark Divide is the name of the movie the web.
Speaker 2: The website is Darkdivide film dot com. That's it.
Speaker 1: Highly recommend it that it's one of the most unique,
Speaker 1: maybe the most unique.
Speaker 3: Yeah, it was.
Speaker 1: The subject there is really entertaining. But as we were
Speaker 1: going to still get back to the movie. But I've
Speaker 1: got a question. Yes, sir, can you can you share?
Speaker 1: So you got a fellowship to take your track? Can
Speaker 1: you share it?
Speaker 3: Did you say Gougenheim Fellowship. I was going to ask
Speaker 3: you that.
Speaker 1: Tell us about that.
Speaker 2: Your one of the most prestigious, privately funded fellowships. You
Speaker 2: can get writers all vye for them, and they're they're
Speaker 2: not easy to get, and I was very lucky to
Speaker 2: get it. That's one reason that the movie veered more
Speaker 2: toward butterflies, because nobody would believe that I got a
Speaker 2: Googleheim for bigfoot studies. This is just as unbelievable as
Speaker 2: big City on your lap right nowadays and feeding you
Speaker 2: bon bons. No, this is but I did, and I
Speaker 2: think there are three big so that I got that one.
Speaker 2: I had a track record of books and research and
Speaker 2: other grants. Google NYM looks for a track record. It's
Speaker 2: not for first time or so I had. That second
Speaker 2: thing was I wasn't trying to prove it or disprove
Speaker 2: it or find it. Almost all bigfoot writers are trying
Speaker 2: to prove it or disprove it or find it.
Speaker 1: This was not.
Speaker 2: It was interested in the entire question of we know
Speaker 2: bigfoot walks in one way or another. In Northwest culture
Speaker 2: and in world culture. It's not just limited to the
Speaker 2: Northwest by any means as a phenomenon. Whether that phenomenon
Speaker 2: corresponds with the flesh and blood animal is open to question,
Speaker 2: but we would be silly to discount the evidence as
Speaker 2: it stands. And so that's the stance I took, and
Speaker 2: I said, I'm going to look into the Native American culture,
Speaker 2: the current white culture. Has it just become a taboid
Speaker 2: joke or does it retain any of the power and
Speaker 2: consequence of the Native American myth? Not using myth as
Speaker 2: a mistake, but myth is a belief system. So because
Speaker 2: I took that track, and then okay, here's why I
Speaker 2: really think I got it and got the book contract
Speaker 2: and got the movie deal. It is because of the
Speaker 2: cool name, the Dark of God.
Speaker 1: What's the history of what's the history of the name dark.
Speaker 2: Divid It's funny, really, I'll give it away. I mean,
Speaker 2: it's a perfect name. It's so it's alliterative, it's beautiful.
Speaker 2: It sings the dark divide, and it could be the
Speaker 2: divide between anything between non belief, spirituality and the physical realm,
Speaker 2: any belief, any divide you want. But it actually connotes
Speaker 2: a watershed divide between the Cispus River Watershed and the
Speaker 2: Lewis River Watershed in Washington State. They both ran the
Speaker 2: Columbia eventually, but they're a big watershed divide running along
Speaker 2: a black rock ridge that runs very rocky and craigly
Speaker 2: and Scregly and Craigie and kind of spooky up in there.
Speaker 2: And it's wilderness, not protected wilderness, but it's the biggest
Speaker 2: unprotected wilderness in Washington, and it runs between Mount Adams
Speaker 2: on the east and Mount Saint Helens on the west. Now,
Speaker 2: they're part of the Cascade Volcano chain, which is mostly
Speaker 2: north south Mount Rainier, Baker, Mount Hood, Mount Shasta, and
Speaker 2: so on. But Adams in Saint Helens, Patwah, and lou
Speaker 2: Wit are out of line with the rest of them.
Speaker 2: They're displaced east and west from one another, and between
Speaker 2: them runs this black rock extrusive ridge and that is
Speaker 2: what's called the Dark Divide. And it's a very wild,
Speaker 2: very cool, very very difficult place to get into, and
Speaker 2: it is rife with bigfoot Lauren legend from the click
Speaker 2: Atats and the Achaemas. So it was the perfect place
Speaker 2: for me to take my study to the field at
Speaker 2: the end of my study period, not to find it,
Speaker 2: not to look for it, but to look for my
Speaker 2: sense of it after my deep immersion, my deep dig
Speaker 2: into the lore and the history. And so that's the
Speaker 2: Divide part. The dark part's kind of funny for all
Speaker 2: the things that cannot conveys, means, suggests, and for all
Speaker 2: the power it gives in spookiness. It's just named for
Speaker 2: some dude named Dark. Get out. Yeah, most people don't
Speaker 2: know that. I don't tell that in the book or not,
Speaker 2: but it was a pioneer named John Dyke Dark and
Speaker 2: he was a prospector and then he did a little logging, prospecting,
Speaker 2: a little trail blazing, and there's a dark meadow and
Speaker 2: a dark mountain named for him, and then they ultimately
Speaker 2: named the Dark Divide for him.
Speaker 1: So cold sounds cool too, how far north of it's
Speaker 1: that cool name?
Speaker 2: That guy mean really got me the fellowship and the book.
Speaker 2: That's it. Somebody there had to be somebody on that
Speaker 2: committee that you're for going and who is interested in
Speaker 2: this good luck.
Speaker 1: It's fascinating, yeah, fascinating.
Speaker 3: So so here you are then you're uh, you know,
Speaker 3: you're oh, my gosh, I have to say this word again.
Speaker 3: Let people, I'm sorry. It's almost like a pediatrist, but
Speaker 3: it's a lepidopterist.
Speaker 2: Okay.
Speaker 3: So you're doing that and like can like. So you're
Speaker 3: interested in it because you're you're speaking also with Native
Speaker 3: Americans and then you start are you keeping your eyes
Speaker 3: open for it? You're wandering around looking for butterflies?
Speaker 2: Always, always, always as a naturalist, I keep my eyes
Speaker 2: open for everything all the time. Bird good, I'm I
Speaker 2: watch out. It's just in Chile. So I'm saying a
Speaker 2: new birds, new mammals, new better stuff I've never seen
Speaker 2: in South America, very different. While I'm looking at everything.
Speaker 2: But because I know stuff up here, I roughly know
Speaker 2: things anywhere in the world, what family apparently belongs to
Speaker 2: or if it's absolutely new. And so as far as
Speaker 2: bigfoot goes, that's just another aspect of natural history. It's
Speaker 2: a big one. I'm always attentive to everything, and uh
Speaker 2: or I try to be. That's what I aspire to be,
Speaker 2: and this is a this is I think one reason
Speaker 2: why a lot of bigfoot hunters and researchers don't really
Speaker 2: find much is because they don't go out there with
Speaker 2: much natural history, and they don't go out there with
Speaker 2: much of a practice in seeing everything around them. They're
Speaker 2: too tied into their gear and they're you know, they're
Speaker 2: equipment and their goggles and their guns, and they're not
Speaker 2: many guns anymore, fortunately. But if you're wide eyed, like
Speaker 2: a child to everything around you, and then you're also
Speaker 2: somewhat experienced in seeing the regular things, then you notice
Speaker 2: the disconformities, something that's different. The best of the big
Speaker 2: foot watchers that like Peter Burnet, is a tracker. That's
Speaker 2: how he found black panthers in India and tigers. He
Speaker 2: would see the reeds and the rushes, but then he'd
Speaker 2: see a disconformity, and he'd see at a quarter mile,
Speaker 2: oh there's a tiger there. Nobody else saw it. That's
Speaker 2: what you see. The disconformities are a little different. So yes,
Speaker 2: I'm always watching, and yes, when i was up in
Speaker 2: the dark fright court now there, and when I'm in
Speaker 2: that most appropriate areas, then yes, I'm hyper attuned for
Speaker 2: a sign or presence of our friend.
Speaker 3: So I'm sorry, Bob, So what do you think the
Speaker 3: different Because I'm assuming that it's pretty hard to just
Speaker 3: go out into the woods, or go out into a
Speaker 3: meadow and just find the butterfly that you want to
Speaker 3: be researching. So that's got to be a pretty difficult
Speaker 3: job itselfs not la burn can track down a butterfly
Speaker 3: because the reeds have moved, you know what I mean.
Speaker 3: It has to be a lot harder. Tell us about that.
Speaker 2: It's not very hard to some of my books about
Speaker 2: butterflies I try to bring people. Got a book called
Speaker 2: Handbook for Butterfly Watchers. I try to give people the
Speaker 2: means of just going out in accounting butterflies wherever they are.
Speaker 2: It's not hard. You just you're attended to their needs,
Speaker 2: nectar flowers, sunshine, plan for their caterpillars. You learn a
Speaker 2: little something about the plants. You don't have to be
Speaker 2: a PhD botanist to know a few plants. And you watch.
Speaker 2: You see where butterflies are appearing, what they do, where
Speaker 2: they go. You go to those kinds of places. It's
Speaker 2: not hard at all.
Speaker 3: It makes perfect sense.
Speaker 2: It's a little harder to photograph them or to catch them,
Speaker 2: but be done with practice. A lot of people do it,
Speaker 2: and more more photography than catching now and most catching
Speaker 2: is catching at least now although collecting we would not
Speaker 2: have the knowledge we have without the many generations of
Speaker 2: collectors say that right up front. The other thing is
Speaker 2: it's extremely hard to hurt a population a butterflies in
Speaker 2: the other insects by collecting. It's like trying to eradicate
Speaker 2: insects with the fly swatter. You know they reproduce very well.
Speaker 2: Collecting is not a problem. If you see a person
Speaker 2: with the butterfly net, they're doing a service of learning
Speaker 2: about the pollinators so that we can all know more. No,
Speaker 2: but a lot of people going with cameras now, and
Speaker 2: you'd be surprised that the wonderful picture is coming out
Speaker 2: with cell phones, even if people are simply gentle go
Speaker 2: forth as a I met a hoop of woman on
Speaker 2: the train the other day with who told me Bigfoot
Speaker 2: has been after her entire life on the reservation, but
Speaker 2: Bigfoot has also taken care of her. It's a kind
Speaker 2: of a message there. And she said Bigfoot will take
Speaker 2: care of you. Grab my arm, and she said she
Speaker 2: knew I'd been to Hoopa and was looking into Bigfoot.
Speaker 2: She says Bigfoot doesn't want to be studied, but Bigfoot
Speaker 2: will take care of you too, And she said, if
Speaker 2: you go with good intentions, it's all about you go
Speaker 2: to fourth toward nature with good intentions, no matter what
Speaker 2: you're studying or looking for, and it means you're going
Speaker 2: to be attentive and caring about their needs as well
Speaker 2: as yours, and then you're going to see a lot more.
Speaker 2: This is not a supernatural thing, This is not spooky.
Speaker 2: This is just common sense. We should go about everything
Speaker 2: with good intentions, and we should go about everything with
Speaker 2: open eyes. That's all I try to get people to do.
Speaker 2: And so Dana, No, it's not hard, just takes a
Speaker 2: little practice.
Speaker 1: Do you feel that's why the Native Americans are just
Speaker 1: so much more in tune and connected to the topic
Speaker 1: of Bigfoot or so squats and the colonial your post
Speaker 1: colonial Europeans are yes.
Speaker 2: And it's also the bill Holme was talking about the
Speaker 2: Indians who still live near the land and the water.
Speaker 2: City Indians don't see them all the time, or't necessarily
Speaker 2: believe or have much dollar about it. They become inculcated
Speaker 2: with city culture. But the Indians who still live near
Speaker 2: the woods and waters and spend time out there, they've
Speaker 2: maintained a tradition among many of them even with modern
Speaker 2: devices that they have too. Nonetheless, in my experience, not
Speaker 2: to make it cultural or racial or ethnic generalization, but
Speaker 2: just an observation of natural history. The Native Americans of
Speaker 2: whom I'm aware would back up what Bill Holmes said.
Speaker 2: They tend to be hyper aware of their surroundings, uper
Speaker 2: aware of their tootemic and natural background, and therefore aware
Speaker 2: of this animal as well as others. When I've gave
Speaker 2: the very first reading for the book at Eliot Bay
Speaker 2: Bookstore in Seattle in nineteen ninety five, there was a
Speaker 2: delegation of a dozen or so Quilliad Indians from the Push.
Speaker 2: This is long before Twilight, so before vampires and werewolves
Speaker 2: moves into La Push. They had real, real hairy monsters,
Speaker 2: you know. And they came and they said, we came
Speaker 2: to see if you treated the subject with humility and
Speaker 2: with respect. And we see and I'm you know, I'm quaking.
Speaker 2: Well did I mean? And they said, and we believe
Speaker 2: you did. Uh. And then they said, may we play
Speaker 2: a tape. This is not to get you people to
Speaker 2: come out to the reservation, but it's to show you
Speaker 2: that we live among these people. Almost all Indians refer
Speaker 2: to Bigfoot as a kind of people, which makes sense
Speaker 2: because they don't have a concept of primates other than
Speaker 2: humans and Bigfoot. They don't have New World monkeys. And
Speaker 2: South American people have a concept to primate Asian people do,
Speaker 2: African people do, but not North American Indians, so naturally
Speaker 2: Bigfoot would be a kind of people. They modify it,
Speaker 2: you know, they'll say uninvolved people are unsophisticated people, or
Speaker 2: or they have all kinds of modifications. But the people,
Speaker 2: so they said, we live among these people, and they
Speaker 2: played the state, and it was very akin to several
Speaker 2: of the profound auditory experiences that I've had early in
Speaker 2: my time and later in my time with Bigfoot. So yes,
Speaker 2: they are more aware, not by some ethnic descent necessarily,
Speaker 2: but by living there and carrying forth their fidelity to
Speaker 2: their surroundings that that most whites and city people have lost.
Speaker 2: Sally a great Northwest writer. Sally, sorry forgetting your last name,
Speaker 2: but the moment said we have given up our we
Speaker 2: have forsaken our mammalian vigilance for comfort and security. Yes
Speaker 2: we have, and that's what they.
Speaker 3: Mh they have not, And basically I think that's something
Speaker 3: that we find a lot from interviewing people in the
Speaker 3: big foot world is that it's people who are doing
Speaker 3: things out in the woods that aren't bigfoot hunting. They're
Speaker 3: out there hunting, you know, deer, or they're mushroom gathering,
Speaker 3: they're camping, hiking, they're training dogs, hunting dogs. We've had stories.
Speaker 3: I mean, basically, if you want to have a bigfoot experience,
Speaker 3: find something else that you love to do in the woods.
Speaker 2: That's very well put. I gave similar I'd like the
Speaker 2: way you put in mambar.
Speaker 3: Are that absolutely yeah, young man I had.
Speaker 2: On another recent train trip, actually was on the same trip.
Speaker 2: He's not one of these people with big Foot fever
Speaker 2: who is desperate to go and find it and prove
Speaker 2: it and get rich and be the one that proves
Speaker 2: it you. No, he's just looking for a challenge in
Speaker 2: his life and he'd like to experience his countryside with
Speaker 2: some kind of a focus there. And I think what
Speaker 2: you just said would be perfect for him if he's
Speaker 2: interested in expanding his post knowledge of the creature, and
Speaker 2: it's it's whereabouts find something else to Actually I gave
Speaker 2: him one clue that he might do out at Mount
Speaker 2: Saint Helen's that No, one's done that I think might
Speaker 2: be a real eye opener. I don't want to give
Speaker 2: it away right here, but it's something people I haven't
Speaker 2: looked for that I think could be fruitful. But you're
Speaker 2: quite right, very very few people ever go forth looking
Speaker 2: for Bigfoot and have any result from that. My three
Speaker 2: profound track findings and my one potential sighting none of
Speaker 2: those came about because I was looking for Bigfoot. Patterson
Speaker 2: Gimmon is an exception, and there are a couple of others,
Speaker 2: but not many.
Speaker 3: What do you think about the PGS film? That's that
Speaker 3: you brought it up well in.
Speaker 2: The back of the of the edition of the book
Speaker 2: that you have the new edition, RODEVINU, I've given a
Speaker 2: list of seven things, seven reasons to keep your ping
Speaker 2: pong ball in the air, not your ping pong ball.
Speaker 2: Belief necessarily belief, Grover Krant said. I don't believe belief
Speaker 2: is akin to faith. He said, I accept based on
Speaker 2: the evidence. So if you have acceptance or call it belief, fine,
Speaker 2: But if you're open minded and would like to I
Speaker 2: would like to believe, would like to accept. As each
Speaker 2: year goes by without definitive proof, then it gets harder
Speaker 2: and harder to keep your ping pong ball of hope
Speaker 2: and open mindedness in the air. So I give people
Speaker 2: seven reasons to keep that up. I could give them
Speaker 2: eight profound ones now, but one of them is the
Speaker 2: PG film, because the PG film, as you know, has
Speaker 2: never been convincingly debunked by all who have tried. I
Speaker 2: was on Peter Burns's board for his last big research project,
Speaker 2: which had pretty good funding, and the Forest Service was collaborating. Now,
Speaker 2: they used to conspire with Warehouser to suppress evidence and information,
Speaker 2: but more recently the Forrest Service and I proved of that,
Speaker 2: It's in the book. But more recently they conspired with
Speaker 2: not with Warehouser to suppress, but with Peter burn to
Speaker 2: try to set up stations to fire a flesh plug
Speaker 2: to try to get some DNA evidence. That didn't work out,
Speaker 2: but in the process Peter had the most definitive edition
Speaker 2: of the digital version of the PG film made, not
Speaker 2: enhancing the data with anything that weren't there wasn't there,
Speaker 2: but bringing out all the data that were there by
Speaker 2: the best available techniques. And I saw that CD, and
Speaker 2: I tell you it was profound, so much more eating
Speaker 2: than the six fifth or six or seventh generation print
Speaker 2: that most of us see frequently. You could see the
Speaker 2: muscles bunching, you could see the after the grass more profound,
Speaker 2: so many other things, and frankly, I think the biometrics
Speaker 2: of it. And as I say in the book, meeting
Speaker 2: Bob Gimnon in recent years and getting to know him,
Speaker 2: I cannot believe he was lying anymore than I can
Speaker 2: believe that he would have mistreated his horses, which you
Speaker 2: would not do. So I think BG is profound, one
Speaker 2: of the most profound evidences that we have.
Speaker 3: That's awesome. I love that.
Speaker 1: Yeah, definitely, I think you share that.
Speaker 3: You share that with a lot of others because you.
Speaker 1: Saw the second generation. I repeat what you said, because
Speaker 1: most of us don't see the second generation of that film.
Speaker 1: We see something later, and it's just we just don't
Speaker 1: have we well, we saw.
Speaker 3: It when we were like little kids in the saburies. Yeah,
Speaker 3: it came out in nineteen sixty seven, right, right, But.
Speaker 1: It's but there's there's you know, there's the original I
Speaker 1: guess on whatever happened to the original one. So then
Speaker 1: there's the second generation. Is w's what Peter Burne had? Yeah,
Speaker 1: And that's what you study, because do you Bob?
Speaker 2: Did you? You just th first generation is commonly said
Speaker 2: to be somewhere in a safety deposit box in Florida
Speaker 2: where nobody knows. The second generation film Renee the Hint
Speaker 2: and believed he owned it, bought the rights from Missus Patterson.
Speaker 2: I don't know what became of that second generation film.
Speaker 2: Peter got hold of it at one point, and uh,
Speaker 2: this was a digital rendering of that that brought out
Speaker 2: its data to the first extent. I didn't see the
Speaker 2: actual film projected. I saw this digital rendering, which was
Speaker 2: probably even better, and uh, that's what I saw.
Speaker 1: Yeah, Oh no, well that were you? Was you remember
Speaker 1: Henry Franzoni. Was he part of helping you with that?
Speaker 2: Oh? Yeah. Henry's brilliant man. I think he recently passed, didn't.
Speaker 3: He he did?
Speaker 2: Yeah?
Speaker 3: Yeah, we saw him a couple of months before he passed, right, Yeah,
Speaker 3: we were up there in your area and had lunch
Speaker 3: with him.
Speaker 2: I haven't seen him in recent years. Henry was a
Speaker 2: weird and strange and wonderful man and very very smart.
Speaker 2: His work on nomenclature of the countryside was was brilliant
Speaker 2: and what do he knew about Native Americans, and his
Speaker 2: book is very intellectual and very very challenging, and I
Speaker 2: think extremely important. Henry was an important man in the field,
Speaker 2: but I think his intellect and his h the rarefied
Speaker 2: nature of what he was doing, escaped a lot of people.
Speaker 1: I think so too. Yeah, and he was definitely missed.
Speaker 1: He was gone way too soon. So what do you
Speaker 1: hope the readers will walk away with after, you know,
Speaker 1: diving into your book.
Speaker 2: Well, I hope they'll come out with a better sense
Speaker 2: of the depth of the Native American the depth and
Speaker 2: breadth of the Native American attachment to it, and the
Speaker 2: fact that it's in their great sense of the physical
Speaker 2: world as well as in their spiritual pantheon, which they're
Speaker 2: able to integrate and separate in a way that my
Speaker 2: mind doesn't do. I just don't do that, I am,
Speaker 2: but I don't attempt to. So that's one of the
Speaker 2: main things. The second main thing is, well, I've really
Speaker 2: wanted to see the it's a political book, and that
Speaker 2: I really want to see the Dark de Eye protected
Speaker 2: as a federal willderness area before I croak. It's not
Speaker 2: going to happen in this administration or possibly not with
Speaker 2: my current member of Congress, though she is pretty good,
Speaker 2: she might not do that. Our district has been jerry
Speaker 2: mandered so that we've lost a lot of the conservation
Speaker 2: voters in itself. But someday I like to see that
Speaker 2: wilderness really protected. That was one and not just that place,
Speaker 2: but all the remaining wilderness. That was a big point
Speaker 2: of the book was Bigfoot is a metaphor for wilderness,
Speaker 2: but not just a metaphor, an actual argument for protecting
Speaker 2: these places. Not that I think Bigfoot's restricted to the
Speaker 2: old growth. I don't. I think it's pretty it's pretty
Speaker 2: opportunistic in other kinds of logged over lands, as well
Speaker 2: as almost fringe agricultural lands. The third thing is that
Speaker 2: I would like people to go forth with great respect
Speaker 2: for this animal, and a great respect for the traditions,
Speaker 2: and above all, maybe an open mind. If they already
Speaker 2: believe or except, fine, maybe this will reinforce them if
Speaker 2: they're a little bit circums respect. As I remain a
Speaker 2: little bit, then I'll tell you why before we finish.
Speaker 2: Then fine, maintain that, But don't dismiss this thing out
Speaker 2: of hand as if it were silly. Don't dismiss this evidence,
Speaker 2: you would be foolish to do so. Keep an open mind.
Speaker 2: There's no big biological, evolutionary, biogeographic, metabolic, physiographic, historical, or
Speaker 2: any other scientific reason why this animal could not, should not,
Speaker 2: or does not exist. The only major objection to it intellectually,
Speaker 2: as far as I'm confirmed, is the absence of definitive proof,
Speaker 2: and that's a big one. But there are also arguments
Speaker 2: why that might be the case that do not involve
Speaker 2: the supernatural. That's another thing from my book. You will
Speaker 2: not find any comfort in it, for if your field
Speaker 2: of interest is the WU, it does not bring forth
Speaker 2: any supernatural approach or comfort. Not that I put these
Speaker 2: people down or say they're wrong. What do I know.
Speaker 2: I'm just a guy and just a dude interested in listening.
Speaker 2: I don't know. They might all be right, I might
Speaker 2: all be wrong. But to me, I'm a materialist biologists
Speaker 2: who feels that the laws of physics are the extent
Speaker 2: within which we may all operate. All creatures and and
Speaker 2: everything in Bigfoot must, must, must, must conform to that.
Speaker 2: That's my personal limitation and view. So you will find
Speaker 2: that in the Book of Physical and Common Sense Approach
Speaker 2: to the animal and a scientific one, not a woo one.
Speaker 2: And and fourthly fun. I want you to have fun
Speaker 2: doing this and not get trapped in bigfoot fever to
Speaker 2: the extent the rest of your life, as I've seen
Speaker 2: it happen with a number of people.
Speaker 3: Yeah, I think a lot of people. And there's there's
Speaker 3: no money in bigfoot. There's no money in bigfoot. You're
Speaker 3: not you know what, even if you do find Bigfoot,
Speaker 3: the second that we have like an actual specimen, I
Speaker 3: would imagine that it would be swept out of their
Speaker 3: hands and a heartbeat and given to people like you,
Speaker 3: people with PhDs and scientists, and I mean, but I
Speaker 3: can't imagine it really like going too far for a
Speaker 3: normal person to find an actual specimen.
Speaker 2: Kate Wolf has a great song about gold in California
Speaker 2: and she says, there there's no gold. I hate to tell. Yeah,
Speaker 2: the gold in California is you know, it's all about
Speaker 2: the gold is the dried vegetation, and the comer is
Speaker 2: gonna catch it no other that's right. And it's it's
Speaker 2: a shimera. It's a if you're going out for fame
Speaker 2: and fortune and as if you could prove it by
Speaker 2: a photograph forget that these days. But if you're going
Speaker 2: forth out of intellectual and personal curiosity about the world
Speaker 2: and an honorable approach to caring for the world, that's
Speaker 2: the other thing about the book. I want people to
Speaker 2: come away from the book with the sense of caring
Speaker 2: and conservation for the land, but also for the animal.
Speaker 2: And as far as should it be found, should it
Speaker 2: not be found? Sure, I'd like the romance of let
Speaker 2: the mystery be in some ways. I think, sure the
Speaker 2: mystery should maintain, we shouldn't find it to broadcast it
Speaker 2: and all that. But on the other hand, if we're
Speaker 2: going to protect this landscape, I think the definitive presence
Speaker 2: of Bigfoot would be a major, major means of doing so.
Speaker 2: And it could go wrong. There's a chapter towards the
Speaker 2: end of the book about a protocol for encounter, and
Speaker 2: as we know from every be scientific science fiction movie,
Speaker 2: you know, when you find the creature, things could go wrong.
Speaker 2: I tried to give some ways in which we might
Speaker 2: avoid that happening. But those are the things I try
Speaker 2: to bring out in the book, and questions as much
Speaker 2: as answers.
Speaker 3: So here's another question, because I'm just getting nervous just
Speaker 3: because we're running out of time, and this is a
Speaker 3: really important question, especially for someone like you.
Speaker 1: So what do you think that like?
Speaker 3: Let's just say that bigfoots exist, what is it like?
Speaker 3: Where did it come from? Where did hevroll from?
Speaker 2: That one is very important. How much more time do
Speaker 2: we have?
Speaker 3: We have about seven minutes.
Speaker 2: Okay, give me a couple to tell you about my
Speaker 2: own encounters.
Speaker 3: Yes, I mean we might need to go past and
Speaker 3: do some editing. We might have to edit this out.
Speaker 2: Yes, some things you could easily edita. I want to
Speaker 2: give this reply good attention without going too long. I've
Speaker 2: just had a very good correspondence with a a man
Speaker 2: in Texas about that whose big thing is whether or
Speaker 2: not Bigfoot has a so called broken arch like the
Speaker 2: the other great apes, or whether it has a fully
Speaker 2: a human like arch that enables a push off with
Speaker 2: the toes. And he thinks it does. He thinks he's
Speaker 2: got the evidence. I think he's probably right. Jeff Meldrum
Speaker 2: is not so sure about that. And Jeff is not
Speaker 2: to be taken lightly. He's a great intellect and a
Speaker 2: great scholar on on and the poids. We can say
Speaker 2: on the prep but the foot aside the animal is
Speaker 2: clearly a great ape, therefore as city primate, and now
Speaker 2: the taxonomy of primates is mixed up. They're those who
Speaker 2: still believe in the in the separating the family Pongity
Speaker 2: in the family humanity. Most uh primatologists do not all
Speaker 2: the apes. They would put in the amenity, the family amenity,
Speaker 2: and there is no family pongity. There is only the
Speaker 2: subfamily Pongini of the humenity, and that includes the three
Speaker 2: species of pongo, the orangutanks. And then there is the
Speaker 2: the subfamily of the gibbons. And then there is a
Speaker 2: Homo ninety Homa nine nine h O m I nae,
Speaker 2: which is the subfamily the Homenity, which includes the great apes,
Speaker 2: the great apes, not the gibbon and not the rings,
Speaker 2: and so we're really in the same subfamily as the
Speaker 2: other living great apes. Then you get to the tribe level,
Speaker 2: which isn't always employed in zoology, but the hamon ninety
Speaker 2: and that's n I n i, So that's where ham
Speaker 2: comes from, only unless it also includes bigfoot. The Penniney
Speaker 2: are the chimps and bonabos, and the Gorilini are the
Speaker 2: three species of gorillas. So the question becomes, does Bigfoot
Speaker 2: belong to one of those three tribes or will it
Speaker 2: be shown to be a different tribe, its own tribe
Speaker 2: and maybe even its own subfamily. Probably not its own subfamily,
Speaker 2: because as we know, if it walks, it it probably
Speaker 2: shares many humanite traits. And I think this cat in
Speaker 2: Texas is probably right about the foot, sorry Jeff, And
Speaker 2: it's probably I think it's probably going to be in
Speaker 2: the in the tribe Harmoninety with us. I think it
Speaker 2: will be shown that there are two species in the Homoninety.
Speaker 2: There were lots of species in the Hommoninety before, it's
Speaker 2: just that they're all extinct, you know, other other members
Speaker 2: of the genus Homo even now, will Bigfoot being the
Speaker 2: genus Homo with us. Probably not. There's probably sufficient differences
Speaker 2: to at least erected genus. And of course Grover Grants
Speaker 2: described it as a species of Gigantipithecus, which we do
Speaker 2: know exists in the fossil record, and we don't know
Speaker 2: we don't know enough about it to know where it
Speaker 2: actually would fall in that primary taxonomy. He called it
Speaker 2: Gigantipithecus canadensis. Well, it that name doesn't stand because to
Speaker 2: describe a species you have to have the type specimen,
Speaker 2: which we do not have. Jeff described an Igno species,
Speaker 2: which is a fossil species from the tracks. He did
Speaker 2: that in the straight literature, not in the Bigfoot literature.
Speaker 2: One of the most profound things that's ever been done
Speaker 2: about Bigfoot. Most people don't even understand it or know that.
Speaker 2: But it doesn't count as the species to prove it
Speaker 2: as a living animal because there was no type specimen.
Speaker 2: Still is very profound. So I think it's most so
Speaker 2: having where did it evolve from? Well, did it evolved
Speaker 2: from a some common ancestor of jimp's, gorillas and humans
Speaker 2: that also gave rise said the all Mosty, the Dalmas,
Speaker 2: the yah Ran, and the Yeti if they exist to Bigfoot.
Speaker 2: So at least five species probably that descended from a
Speaker 2: common ancestor. And what its common ancestor was, where it
Speaker 2: broke off from gymps, bonaboas and gorillas. I cannot say.
Speaker 2: We need to know a lot about DNA, but I
Speaker 2: think it's but there's no problem with this evolution, no
Speaker 2: problem whatever. Surely an ape, it's surely a great ape
Speaker 2: and it is surely not surely, but I think likely
Speaker 2: In the in the tribe Harmon ninety with its own genus,
Speaker 2: I love that.
Speaker 3: That was a really great answer.
Speaker 1: Yeah, the great.
Speaker 2: Answer, the correct answer for now as pertains to the
Speaker 2: main accepted taxonomy and Primates says we are now almost
Speaker 2: everybody just screws us up, and they also want they
Speaker 2: get their nickers in the twist about is it an
Speaker 2: apors or a human? That's like, you know, humans are a.
Speaker 1: Right on the last day of your track, you had
Speaker 1: something happened to you. Did you want to share that?
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's that's a good place to do these experiences. First,
Speaker 2: I just said, the book starts out my first profound
Speaker 2: experience on Mount Saint Helens in nineteen seventy Halloween knight,
Speaker 2: when I had my first profound auditory experiences, and I
Speaker 2: was a student of natural history, knew the birds, knew
Speaker 2: the mammals, and the vocabularies. This was not one of them,
Speaker 2: and it accorded with Indian recordings later on. So that
Speaker 2: was way back in nineteen seventy. But come forward my
Speaker 2: month in the Dark Divide, I had three or four
Speaker 2: pretty profound vocal experiences. But the last night in the
Speaker 2: Dark Divide. Coming out, I didn't want to go right
Speaker 2: back to the freeway. I had been in the wilderness
Speaker 2: for a month, So by coming back on tiny roads
Speaker 2: and my little old Honda on the edge of the
Speaker 2: Dark Divide by Oak Pass by Mount Saint Helens, I
Speaker 2: could stay in the mountains one more night before I
Speaker 2: had to leave. Well, just coming down from the Elk Pass,
Speaker 2: i'd stopped to take a pe and have one celebratory
Speaker 2: beer to doast the Dark Divide my month up there
Speaker 2: just one beer coasting down onto the road, gonna start
Speaker 2: up in a minute, but I heard some whistles, so
Speaker 2: I just coasted down by the slope and from this
Speaker 2: this angled bank on my left, under low alder trees,
Speaker 2: came these whistles so that were not invocabulary of any
Speaker 2: birds and mammals I knew, and they were weew weew,
Speaker 2: and quite shrill and fairly repetitive with some variation. And
Speaker 2: as I coasted along the bank there they moved with me. Hmm,
Speaker 2: along with me. And just as I stopped with my
Speaker 2: lights off only my brake light on, and was about
Speaker 2: to set the break and get out with my flashlight
Speaker 2: and look up into the it was dark, it was
Speaker 2: lightly raining, no trees overhead. Something hit the top of
Speaker 2: my car with a loud report. Mm hm. The smooth
Speaker 2: muscles take over that point, you know. And I didn't
Speaker 2: take my pass, but I did skid otto. If you
Speaker 2: could burn rubber and the wold hand on a dirt
Speaker 2: road in the rain, I did. And about a quarter
Speaker 2: mile later I said dummy, you know. And I went
Speaker 2: back and got and saw nothing. But I came back
Speaker 2: three days later, and where the sounds had emanated from
Speaker 2: and where the objects struck the top of my car,
Speaker 2: there were a set of impressions across the mossy shale
Speaker 2: and then on to softer Mount Saint Helens Eruption Pumas,
Speaker 2: where about a half a dozen of the tracks took
Speaker 2: pretty well, not well enough for a cast, but I
Speaker 2: had the pictures are in the book, well enough to
Speaker 2: get measurements on three of them, and they were smack
Speaker 2: in the middle of Peterburn's database for the mean and
Speaker 2: the median reported tracks just under sixteen inches long, just
Speaker 2: over four and three and a half on the heel.
Speaker 2: And then they came across right from where the sounds
Speaker 2: had come and then went up onto a game trail
Speaker 2: and disappeared into the oak tracks. So what can I say?
Speaker 2: The tracks the sounds right there? How did you stick?
Speaker 1: What hit the roof?
Speaker 2: I found owned a stick right there, cherry and wild
Speaker 2: cherry that was twisted off. The Indians say they twist them,
Speaker 2: not break them. And I had my tea throw it
Speaker 2: at the car several times and it made the appropriate sound.
Speaker 2: Now in the movie, the end of the movie recreates
Speaker 2: the scene and it's the betstanding. It's they got it
Speaker 2: almost exactly right aditions, but they got almost exactly right.
Speaker 2: And the music the Chris Noble Selch of Nirvana recorded
Speaker 2: for the for this was the most perfect ending for
Speaker 2: the movie. But in that they make it a rock
Speaker 2: instead of a stick. But the stick was there not?
Speaker 2: Was that the same stick? I don't know, But I
Speaker 2: do have the other stick on which I cut niches
Speaker 2: to measure the track, and that is is real. What
Speaker 2: do you say about that? So that was well? Tea
Speaker 2: was It was a very very level headed Swede and
Speaker 2: not particularly interested how they skeptical saw the Elk tracks
Speaker 2: on the game fail and said, oh, those are just
Speaker 2: Elk tracks that have run together. She didn't take it
Speaker 2: particularly good look. But nine years later I had a
Speaker 2: Japanese film crew out there. They came to do a
Speaker 2: Bigfoot sequence for this crazy Japanese Hollywood Squares natural history
Speaker 2: program they had, and they brought a crew of nine,
Speaker 2: and my God took them up into the Doctor Viken.
Speaker 2: We find tracks. Now, well, no, I'll show you where
Speaker 2: you know some Bigfoot like stuff, and I'll show you
Speaker 2: a wilderness and you know this old tree has been
Speaker 2: busted up the way Bigfoot does not the way woodpeckers do. You.
Speaker 2: I show them some things to photograph. But on the
Speaker 2: way up, Bam, I almost step on a track in
Speaker 2: just about the only open soil. Otherwise it's rock, pine
Speaker 2: needles or fur needles, snow and so on. But there's
Speaker 2: one bit of pubis they're open and there's a darn
Speaker 2: good track, and it made their entire trip from Tokyo.
Speaker 2: I tell you that. Yeah, I got a cast. And
Speaker 2: I came back a few days later with a reporter
Speaker 2: from the Oregonian, not because I wanted publicity for this,
Speaker 2: but he was doing a new interview with me for
Speaker 2: they chosen the book for a book club for the newspaper.
Speaker 2: You want a new interview and I said, come on
Speaker 2: up to the hills, I'll show you something cool. And
Speaker 2: we put plaster in, but it didn't set before it
Speaker 2: got cold, and it was too thin. Never got a
Speaker 2: good cast, but got the photograph of the past in
Speaker 2: the cast. And when I showed that to Tia, she said,
Speaker 2: h maybe I was hasty. That was the second time.
Speaker 2: The third time was ten years after that, a quarter
Speaker 2: mile away or less. By the way, that second track
Speaker 2: was about three hundred yards from the first one. The
Speaker 2: first set of tracks the same proportions nine years later,
Speaker 2: suggesting the same animal on the same home range over
Speaker 2: nine years. Ten years later, I was a few hundred
Speaker 2: yards to the south over the past the other side
Speaker 2: on a small logging road that went a little ways,
Speaker 2: and I was walking looking for late season butterflies. And
Speaker 2: on this shale slope, a loose siltstone slope that was eroding,
Speaker 2: was a set of impressions going up the slope, two
Speaker 2: of them, one adult size, one juvenile size. The best
Speaker 2: one of those in the firmest of the silt, were
Speaker 2: measurable also, but not firm enough for a cast, and
Speaker 2: they were the very same proportions on the adult sized
Speaker 2: one and there was a juvenile sized one. And then
Speaker 2: up at the top where there was a horizon between
Speaker 2: the softer siltstone and the looser and the firmer, there
Speaker 2: was a horizon with a crack, and there were rodent holes,
Speaker 2: there ground squirrel dens, and there were hand plunges. A
Speaker 2: cast of a hand plunge into a gopher hole. It's
Speaker 2: very impressive, with an inch and a half fingernail came
Speaker 2: out in the plaster. But these were hand plunges, apparently,
Speaker 2: according to my hypothesis, into these gopher holes. And I
Speaker 2: interpret it as potentially not only a hunting incident, but
Speaker 2: also a tutelary one where the adult was perhaps teaching
Speaker 2: the young how we do this. And there are many
Speaker 2: many Clickitat and n Acamas stories about bigfoot catching rodents
Speaker 2: in this manner and also by moving rocks, and some
Speaker 2: evidence of that. So do any of my experiences prove it. No,
Speaker 2: But I do not have a better hypothesis, which still
Speaker 2: leaves me in the territory of not knowing to where
Speaker 2: I can say. I will not say I believe because
Speaker 2: I grow over. Belief is faith. You don't prove faith,
Speaker 2: but accepting it. Like Jane I'm not quite there yet
Speaker 2: at this point, but boy, I'm farther than I was.
Speaker 2: When I came out of writing the book, I expected
Speaker 2: to come out, oh great story, but no, cigar.
Speaker 1: No.
Speaker 2: I came out with an open mind, which I considered
Speaker 2: a really big gift. Well, now, twenty years after the
Speaker 2: book three Profound Track Sightings, my mind is even wider open.
Speaker 2: And then three years ago this week I was coming back.
Speaker 2: Next week, I was coming back from eastern Washington butterfly trip,
Speaker 2: coming over the very same road that defines the northern
Speaker 2: edge of the Dark Divide Wilderness, Highway twelve in Washington,
Speaker 2: running up to White Pass, the very same road where
Speaker 2: one of the best biologists I know, a total bigfoot skeptic,
Speaker 2: called and who wanted me to not do the book,
Speaker 2: not take the ground, because he thought it would ruin
Speaker 2: my reputation in my career. He called me when I
Speaker 2: was doing the book and he said, Bob, I've seen
Speaker 2: it on Highway twelve. I saw from one side of
Speaker 2: the road stand in the middle of the road, squat
Speaker 2: urinate and then walk just like just like Patty, off
Speaker 2: to the other side of the road into the forest.
Speaker 2: He said. I went from me a total skeptic to
Speaker 2: a big foot born again in ten seconds on that
Speaker 2: same road three years ago, I'm coming up to white
Speaker 2: pass elker in the road. I stopped so I don't
Speaker 2: hit the elk like I did a poor deer day
Speaker 2: before yesterday, right above my house. And yeah, very sad.
Speaker 2: All these years, never hit a big mammal until two
Speaker 2: days ago on Earth Day. I almost hit these elk,
Speaker 2: and that can be lethal to them. I barely stopped
Speaker 2: in time. And so after that there were several of them.
Speaker 2: Let them get across. Went slowly so because there were more.
Speaker 2: And what did I see in my peripheral vision but
Speaker 2: a dark form up on the cut bank just to
Speaker 2: my left, about fifteen feet away, about eight feet up,
Speaker 2: about fifteen feet away. And I swiveled my head. What
Speaker 2: do I see? I see? I see, Patty, I see
Speaker 2: the standard logo. You know, the most recognized, one of
Speaker 2: the most recognizable symbols in the world today is the
Speaker 2: walking bigfoot. I wanted a symbol for wildness. Well I
Speaker 2: am now I saw it a word. That's what my
Speaker 2: eyes told me. Moving out from behind one tree across
Speaker 2: a very not only about only about three feet and
Speaker 2: then behind another big tree, and then into the right
Speaker 2: for maybe a second or two or three at the
Speaker 2: outside in failing light, late in the day, rapidly and
Speaker 2: I couldn't stop because there was a truck on my ass.
Speaker 2: I go back. There was a blizzard coming and it
Speaker 2: was up there. But I came back a couple days
Speaker 2: later and I could find nothing. It was hard pan
Speaker 2: up there. Cliff Cliff went and had to look for me,
Speaker 2: and he couldn't find anything either. But I did find
Speaker 2: a mile away a lodge, mountain lodge with a big
Speaker 2: bigfoot sculpture in front of it. And when I would
Speaker 2: talk to the people about have there been any recent sightings,
Speaker 2: they say people come in here every day and we
Speaker 2: get so many reports we've stopped counting. This is a
Speaker 2: mile so I feel I have very likely seen the
Speaker 2: animal now.
Speaker 3: So now here's a question for you. So did you
Speaker 3: see the animal or did you not see the animal
Speaker 3: in your view?
Speaker 1: In your head?
Speaker 2: Yeah, certainly in my head. I don't know. I'm a
Speaker 2: human being. I'm a big footer subject to projection like
Speaker 2: any other. The light was fading, it wasn't yet dusk.
Speaker 2: I saw color, saw the brown, and I saw upward legs,
Speaker 2: not fore legs. I saw a swing of the upper appendages,
Speaker 2: and I saw a large head. This is what I
Speaker 2: see in my head that I saw, but very fast,
Speaker 2: and it was fading light. And I am suggestible as
Speaker 2: a bigfoot person, so it was a definitive proof to me.
Speaker 2: I'm sorry, I'm a biologist. No it was not. I
Speaker 2: cannot say. I cannot tell you that I saw bigfoot,
Speaker 2: but I can tell you that I think I did.
Speaker 3: And what if you had a sighting like your friend
Speaker 3: where it's walking across the streets.
Speaker 2: That's what I need. I need tell better than that
Speaker 2: to put me over the edge, to put me over
Speaker 2: I'm not I can go there. I can easily go
Speaker 2: there if I need something. And I've had more than most.
Speaker 2: Three profound back sightings, several profound auditory experiences, and one
Speaker 2: I think probable sighting. But it's not enough, because I
Speaker 2: am a trained biologist, and I need and I'm not
Speaker 2: a skeptic of bigfoot, because I've already told you there's
Speaker 2: no logical reason it would not be here. Just Harry,
Speaker 2: graded we can be here. It can be here on
Speaker 2: the barren land bridge too. No that I can only say,
Speaker 2: I'm at about ninety five percent right now. That's a
Speaker 2: great Yeah, maybe I'm ninety eight, but that's what I've
Speaker 2: got to leave you with.
Speaker 3: Well, well, that's awesome to have a PhD tell us that.
Speaker 3: That's pretty inspiring, you know, because sometimes you talk about
Speaker 3: it and people are like, girl, you're crazy. It's like,
Speaker 3: but it's you know, when you have so much evidence
Speaker 3: that's there, you know, eyewitness sightings, footprints, we have it
Speaker 3: on film, you know, we have some pictures. You know.
Speaker 2: Well, I think it's extremely hardening. The fewer people were
Speaker 2: saying you're crazy. And when the Oxford group of scientists
Speaker 2: said send us your stuff, and a whole lot of
Speaker 2: people said hair and poop and and things. And they
Speaker 2: came and they did it all. They did it all
Speaker 2: in the DNA time. When they came back and said,
Speaker 2: so we got bear, we got help, we got a nylon,
Speaker 2: we got human poop, we got all kinds of things.
Speaker 2: Nothing yet, but keep it coming. These are Oxford scientists.
Speaker 2: So the Titan is turning on the UH, on the UH,
Speaker 2: on the wall between the world. There's hope that people
Speaker 2: will look carefully, not only I mean people with so
Speaker 2: called credentials. You know, scientists can be the worst of
Speaker 2: the non scientific types. They can have some of the
Speaker 2: worst closed minds of all. But there is no scientific
Speaker 2: cabal against the Bigfoot people, which a lot of people
Speaker 2: are paranoid about. They think there is a little bit
Speaker 2: of intellectual inferiority complex here.
Speaker 3: Uh, they don't mean do you mean what do you
Speaker 3: mean by that? Like that there's a cabal against them.
Speaker 2: Because they don't have a PhD, which you know, it's
Speaker 2: just another degree. I knew as many dummies as Yale
Speaker 2: as I did anywhere. It's just a lot of work
Speaker 2: you do and you get just another I mean, it's
Speaker 2: it's important to me. It lets me cash checks and strange.
Speaker 2: I use it where it's appropriate, and I do respect it.
Speaker 2: PhDs are not given lightly. Okay, it does mean something,
Speaker 2: but it doesn't put down anybody who doesn't have one.
Speaker 2: Your experience, the best lepidopterist in Washington, probably in the
Speaker 2: United States, the most knowledgeable, is a teamster. He's a
Speaker 2: truck driver. He didn't like academia, but he's the best
Speaker 2: self taught biologist I know. But he's he's no lesser
Speaker 2: than I am because I have a PhD in ecology.
Speaker 2: But sometimes, oftentimes a lot of perfectly competent, sensible, smart
Speaker 2: bigfootners get a boulder on their shoulder about PhDs because
Speaker 2: they have I have never heard of this, No, it's
Speaker 2: it's in a lot of the books. People will say
Speaker 2: they won't listen to us, they won't look at our stuff,
Speaker 2: they won't put But there's a reason they get grants.
Speaker 2: They've got to pay for their labs, you know, bring them,
Speaker 2: don't look at your stuff. The Oxford people are doing it.
Speaker 2: But sure there are some there are some snotty uh
Speaker 2: snobby PhDs and primate people who think it's a joke.
Speaker 2: Sure of course there are. But but there are plenty
Speaker 2: of others who are perfectly interested and would look at
Speaker 2: evidence if they had, you know, the support to do so.
Speaker 2: There's no but there's no scientific cabal against the bigfoot people.
Speaker 2: And I think that's getting through, sorry, starting to get through.
Speaker 1: That's great, that's awesome. So last plugs. Let's last plugs
Speaker 1: for the book.
Speaker 2: And the movie.
Speaker 1: Can share with the audience how they can buy your
Speaker 1: book and then watch the movie.
Speaker 2: You can buy the book in the obvious place that
Speaker 2: I don't like to push kid, we will talk.
Speaker 1: We'll talk about someone consciousness.
Speaker 2: Yeah. What I push is, uh, basically can do everything
Speaker 2: that that thing can do for you. Called bookshop dot org,
Speaker 2: okayshop dot org and theyn get any book in print
Speaker 2: for you just like the other one can. And the
Speaker 2: money goes to independent bookstores.
Speaker 1: Oh that's so awesome.
Speaker 2: Or you can get any bookstore you want to walk
Speaker 2: into to order it overnight. It's easily available. It's published
Speaker 2: by Counterpoint Press, a mainstream publisher based in Berkeley.
Speaker 1: So I think I bought it, Bob, I think I
Speaker 1: bought the book based on your recommendation years ago. I
Speaker 1: think I bought it, Pals, that's not right. This is
Speaker 1: a great places because I heard you tell me that,
Speaker 1: not me, but tell someone that.
Speaker 2: And I said, oh, independent bookstore. It's in Portland. It's
Speaker 2: a wonderful place to go if you're ever in Portland.
Speaker 2: And you can do that online too, Just go to
Speaker 2: Powells Books online, the Powels one get it there too.
Speaker 2: You'll have it in a couple of days for under
Speaker 2: twenty bucks. It's a burden. And then the movie.
Speaker 3: Did you buy it when we were there?
Speaker 2: Yeah?
Speaker 1: I ordered online?
Speaker 2: Okay, that's great. Yeah, the movie outrime or several of
Speaker 2: the several of the streaming services of the movie. But
Speaker 2: I recommend getting the DVD which has a second, real
Speaker 2: second DVD with all the outtakes and it's got all
Speaker 2: of the best. One of the best Northwest Indian storytellers,
Speaker 2: Harvest Moon, who played the grandma in the movie, and
Speaker 2: she told Bigfoot stories by the campfire, but that all
Speaker 2: got cut out because of the time of the movie.
Speaker 2: And they're wonderful and their original and they're authentic. She
Speaker 2: does it professionally, and they're all on that second disc.
Speaker 2: So you can get that DVD with the with the
Speaker 2: Indian Bigfoot stories around the campfire authentic by going to
Speaker 2: the website Darkdivide film dot com and bok around find
Speaker 2: their merch page. I'm going to do it.
Speaker 3: Yeah, we're going to do because I want to see that.
Speaker 2: Good that Tim and Day show. Now I get to
Speaker 2: be an there, Griffin and all the other good folks
Speaker 2: you've had there. Yeah, your podcast, and I'm so honored
Speaker 2: to be on here.
Speaker 3: We are so honored.
Speaker 2: Bob.
Speaker 3: I am like, you're like my new favorite person in.
Speaker 2: Your mind, both of you. Really, He's gonna hear this thing.
Speaker 3: Yeah, we're super excited. We're super excited, go.
Speaker 2: Forth into the wilds with open eyes, open ears, and
Speaker 2: good intentions. Yep.
Speaker 1: Wonderful little Thank you. Thank you so much, Bob, Thank
Speaker 1: you everyone else for tuning in. Thank you, see you
Speaker 1: next time.
Speaker 3: Thank you, Bob, see y