Speaker 1: Thousands of people have mysteriously vanished in America's wilderness. Join
Speaker 1: us as we dive into the deep end of the
Speaker 1: unexplainable world and try to piece.
Speaker 2: Together what happened.
Speaker 1: If you are listening to Locations Unknown, oh what's up everybody,
Speaker 1: and welcome back to another episode of Locations Unknown. I'm
Speaker 1: your co host Joey with me as always is a
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Speaker 1: All right, everybody, let's gear up and get out to
Speaker 1: explore locations Unknown October nineteenth, twenty nineteen, an eighty six
Speaker 1: year old lifelong hunter is dropped off along Divide Road
Speaker 1: in Colorado's San Juan National Forest for a short morning
Speaker 1: el hunt. He's told to follow a familiar trail down
Speaker 1: to a pickup point by ten am. Around nine am,
Speaker 1: a single gunshot echoes through the timber.
Speaker 2: By ten he's gone.
Speaker 1: Search teams, helicopters, canine units, and grid cruise comb the
Speaker 1: aspen meadows and dense drainages but find nothing. No tracks,
Speaker 1: no gear, no trace. Join us this week as we
Speaker 1: begin the first of our mini series, The Lost Hunters
Speaker 1: of Colorado, with the baffling disappearance of Alvi Webb.
Speaker 2: Almost got it there. I read it. I read and
Speaker 2: then faded.
Speaker 1: I know, I read it, And the timing's always weird
Speaker 1: when you do it live, and we don't edit on
Speaker 1: this show.
Speaker 2: So no, so that was live. But before you get going,
Speaker 2: I wanted to just say that this case feels very
Speaker 2: similar to a case we did many moons ago on
Speaker 2: Tom Messick m hm, the Hunter that went missing in
Speaker 2: New York. That was episode twelve.
Speaker 1: Oh way back in time, yeah, way back way back
Speaker 1: in time.
Speaker 2: So we'll talk about the area a little bit.
Speaker 1: So to understand how Alvi Webb vanished, you first have
Speaker 1: to understand the shape of the country he walked in,
Speaker 1: or the country he walked into. The San Juan National
Speaker 1: Forest sprawls across more than one point eight million acres
Speaker 1: of southwestern Colorado, steep, jagged, and vertical in a way
Speaker 1: that most people from the lower elevations of the central
Speaker 1: United States have never experienced. Alvi didn't disappear into the
Speaker 1: vastness of the San Juan's at random. He vanished from
Speaker 1: a very specific pocket of it by roads and trails
Speaker 1: his family already knew. The main artery into the country
Speaker 1: is I keep saying country a county, Ya, I mean
Speaker 1: a country and like you know country, like yeah, country road?
Speaker 1: You could say, is the divide road for It's so
Speaker 1: the main artery is divide road forest road five sixty four.
Speaker 2: We'll cut all that.
Speaker 1: Out, Yeah no, we won't. A rugged, unpaved forest road
Speaker 1: that rides the high ridge lines across the section of
Speaker 1: the Dolores Ranger District, often exceeding nine thousand feet of
Speaker 1: elevation for most of its length. It's a kind of
Speaker 1: road that's passable in a pickup in dry weather and
Speaker 1: a serious problem the moment conditions deteriorate. Sounds like the
Speaker 1: road Ron daily, Yes, was driving absolutely a few episodes ago.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker 1: Branching off the divide road is a smaller spur called
Speaker 1: Road five six four A. It's right off of five
Speaker 1: sixty four. This is where the Web family set up camp,
Speaker 1: the same spot they'd used for five consecutive years of
Speaker 1: elk hunting. From the camp, at the end of five
Speaker 1: six four A, the family drove Alvy out and walked
Speaker 1: him approximately one hundred yards down an unnamed foot trail
Speaker 1: that drops through timber and meadow country before eventually connecting
Speaker 1: with Roaring for four Road roughly two miles below. So
Speaker 1: Roaring Fork Road it is itself an unpaved eight point
Speaker 1: seventy five mile four service road. So picture the disappearance
Speaker 1: zone is something close to a tilted corridor, which is
Speaker 1: the spur road. A camp sitting above the Roaring Fork
Speaker 1: Road that runs below, and an unnamed trail connects them
Speaker 1: over roughly two miles of descending terrain, so it's kind
Speaker 1: of like a little interspersed roadway. Yeah, they all connect.
Speaker 1: The plan was for Alphie, excuse me, Alvi to hunt
Speaker 1: the upper portion of that corridor near the meadow he knew,
Speaker 1: and then he'd be picked up at the bottom of
Speaker 1: the hill on the road around ten o'clock. On a map,
Speaker 1: it's not a huge box. On the ground, it's a
Speaker 1: very different story. So we'll talk a little bit about
Speaker 1: the terrain. A sheriff, Nolan repeatedly described the search area
Speaker 1: as mostly aspen meadows. To a listener, a meadow sounds
Speaker 1: like a flat opening clearing, the kind of place where
Speaker 1: a man in a bright orange vest should be visible
Speaker 1: from one hundreds of yards away, And in places it
Speaker 1: is aspen groves and the san Juans can feel deceptively spacious,
Speaker 1: especially in the mid to late October, when the leaves
Speaker 1: are down or falling. In sightlines begin between trunks open up.
Speaker 1: That's exactly why Nolan felt confident putting searchers thirty feet
Speaker 1: apart in grid formation. In that kind of country, you
Speaker 1: shouldn't be able to miss a person. But the san
Speaker 1: Juans at nine thy five hundred feet are not a park.
Speaker 1: The quote unquote meadows are often sloping clearings choked with
Speaker 1: tall grass, fallen dead woods, and hidden depressions bordered by
Speaker 1: dense stands of spruce and fur timber. The forest floor
Speaker 1: is layered with decades of pine needles, leaf litter, and
Speaker 1: organic duff and critically, the areas cut by steep timbered
Speaker 1: side drainages leading down towards Rowing Fork Creek the kind
Speaker 1: of terrain features that can swallow person in a matter
Speaker 1: of minutes once they step off the main path. So
Speaker 1: a hunter stepping from one of those open aspen meadows
Speaker 1: into the darker timber, over a bench, or down into
Speaker 1: a shallow drainage could become invisibly invisible remarkably fast, even
Speaker 1: while remaining relatively close to the trail. The ground in
Speaker 1: this part of the San Juans is three dimensional in
Speaker 1: a way that flat country people don't always appreciate like
Speaker 1: us yeah yeah, flat, Like the flat country in Wisconsin,
Speaker 1: a body below a small lip of terrain, in a
Speaker 1: fold of the slope, under dead fall, or behind dense brush,
Speaker 1: or in a shadowed pocket a spruce could be invisible
Speaker 1: from thirty feet, which is exactly the grid spacing. The
Speaker 1: searchers used the nearby trail descriptions paint a consistent picture
Speaker 1: of the character of the country. The rough Canning trail,
Speaker 1: which starts from Roaring Fork Road, just one point three
Speaker 1: miles from its junction with Highway one forty five. Is
Speaker 1: described as seldom used in recent years, with faint tread
Speaker 1: that can be followed if one is careful. Language like
Speaker 1: that tells you how quickly maintained trails in this area
Speaker 1: degrade into nothing, let alone the unmanned connector path. Alvi
Speaker 1: was walking the Onyx trail. Descriptions mentioned single track, riddled
Speaker 1: with roots, rocks, and with constant climbing through terrain that
Speaker 1: shifts between asp groves, scrub oak, ponderosa pine, and steep
Speaker 1: erosion features. So a little bit about the elevation altitude.
Speaker 1: As we said, the hunting area sits at roughly ninety
Speaker 1: five hundred feet above sea level. That number matters more
Speaker 1: than almost anything else. In this case, Alviweb came from Muldro, Oklahoma,
Speaker 1: elevation roughly five hundred feet. In the span of a
Speaker 1: couple days, he was transported to a landscape sitting nearly
Speaker 1: two vertical miles above his hometown. Colorado's own hunter's education
Speaker 1: materials are blunt about this danger. Hunting in Colorado commonly
Speaker 1: occurs between five thy twelve thousand feet where oxygen levels
Speaker 1: can drop between seventeen and thirteen percent, compared to roughly
Speaker 1: twenty percent or twenty point nine percent at sea level.
Speaker 1: Altitude sickness can first appear at just five thousand feet
Speaker 1: and its effects only worse than his elevation increases. Colorado
Speaker 1: Parks and Wildlife advises that hunters from lower altitudes should
Speaker 1: spend a few days at higher elevation just before or
Speaker 1: the hunting season to allow your body to acclimate, and
Speaker 1: warns that altitude effects health, stamina, and the ability to
Speaker 1: move efficiently. So now we got the weather. So October
Speaker 1: twenty nineteen was not a normal October in Colorado. The
Speaker 1: National Weather Service described this month across southern Colorado as
Speaker 1: dominated by several unseasonably strong and cold systems, bringing early
Speaker 1: season record cold temperatures as well as the season's first
Speaker 1: snowfall for many locals. The Colorado Climate Center confirmed it
Speaker 1: was the seventh coldest October in one hundred and thirty
Speaker 1: one years of record, which with the mean temperature running
Speaker 1: at six degrees below the nineteen eighty one to twenty
Speaker 1: ten normal, it's pretty cold, pretty pretty cold. The NWS
Speaker 1: Grand Junction Office noted that the strong cold front pushed
Speaker 1: across western Colorado at the end of the first week,
Speaker 1: producing up to eight inches of mountain snow, and the
Speaker 1: remainder of October remained fairly active, with several early season
Speaker 1: winter storms moving through the region. So he was in
Speaker 1: an altadie. He's not acclimated to He's got weather kind
Speaker 1: of against him.
Speaker 2: He's i mean elderly, he is late eighties.
Speaker 1: He is older, so any of those effects worsening, you know,
Speaker 1: are not going to be as easy on his body.
Speaker 2: So yeah, tell us a little bit about Alvi. Okay,
Speaker 2: so his name was obviously Alvy web. We don't have
Speaker 2: an exact date of birth, but based on the fact
Speaker 2: that he was eighty six, with some news sources saying
Speaker 2: he was eighty seven, his date of birth is roughly
Speaker 2: nineteen thirty two to nineteen thirty three. He went missing
Speaker 2: October nineteenth of twenty nineteen. He was a male. He
Speaker 2: was five foot ten and one hundred and forty pounds.
Speaker 2: He had gray, white hair. We don't know eye color,
Speaker 2: other descriptions described in a lot of the missing person's materials.
Speaker 2: So he was an elderly white male. Family and officials
Speaker 2: noted he had some trouble walking long distances due to
Speaker 2: his age. Sheriff Nolan stated he did not believe web
Speaker 2: really could have walked very far given his a condition
Speaker 2: and altitude, but his family stressed that he had no
Speaker 2: formal disabilities and was described as very mentally alert. So
Speaker 2: while he physically had some maybe challenges with mobility, he
Speaker 2: was very mentally there. So okay, that was not anything
Speaker 2: that they suspected in this case. Clothing gear he was
Speaker 2: last seen in so bright orange hat, orange hunter's vest,
Speaker 2: heavy camouflaged hunting jacket, vest worn over the jacket. He
Speaker 2: had a hunting rifle, obviously he's hunting elk. He had
Speaker 2: a few food bars, water. He he had a cell phone,
Speaker 2: but it was turned off or the battery was dead.
Speaker 2: It was according to report's last used on Friday, October
Speaker 2: eighteenth of twenty nineteen, the day before he vanished, just
Speaker 2: keep going, Well we can pause, you can go, No,
Speaker 2: keep going. I'm gonna cut all this out in anyways, won't.
Speaker 2: Locations unknown after there we gon fantastic. So he did
Speaker 2: not have any overnight gear, no shelter, He had no
Speaker 2: fire starting equipment, no sleeping bag, no pack. And this
Speaker 2: is because this was intended to be a short morning hunt,
Speaker 2: just for a few hours. So, you know, going in
Speaker 2: Joe's showing pictures of Alvi, I mean he looks you know,
Speaker 2: growing up hunting when I was a kid, we had
Speaker 2: some elderly gentlemen that would come with us. He looks
Speaker 2: just like all of them. Yeah, just like all the
Speaker 2: guys would come hunting. But it's unfortunate. You probably should
Speaker 2: carry gear, overnight gear and stuff like that hunting in
Speaker 2: this environment.
Speaker 1: Or even just emergency blanket stuff.
Speaker 2: Like that something. But I mean they've done this for
Speaker 2: many years and nothing happens, so you don't think to
Speaker 2: bring that stuff. Yeah. Absolutely. Personality wise, so, Alvi was
Speaker 2: a former school teacher. In principal, he was a man
Speaker 2: of education, discipline, routine, and community standing. Friends all called
Speaker 2: him just a great man in the days after his disappearance,
Speaker 2: and people consistently this is family and friends who knew
Speaker 2: him and interacted with him a lot described him as
Speaker 2: mentally sharp, very alert, and fully independent despite his age,
Speaker 2: and the fact that his family trusted him to hunt
Speaker 2: alone at eighty six really speaks to the confidence and
Speaker 2: the judgment they had in him, because sure, no disrespect
Speaker 2: to anyone of his age. But if someone is cold,
Speaker 2: if you know someone is starting to suffer from dementia
Speaker 2: or Alzheimer's or something like that, you're not going to
Speaker 2: let him sit alone out in the woods with a firearm. Yeah.
Speaker 2: So that just goes back to the fact that he
Speaker 2: was very sharp for his age. You know, I've known
Speaker 2: family members that eighty six is getting up there. It's
Speaker 2: getting up there, and some family members in the past
Speaker 2: were not all with it, but then others. I had
Speaker 2: a family member lived to one hundred and one and
Speaker 2: she was with it almost until the end, which is
Speaker 2: really impressive. That is super impressive because I know people
Speaker 2: our age that aren't with it.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I think I know those same people.
Speaker 2: Yeah. So he was a kind person. Like I said,
Speaker 2: people called him Papa, and he was kind of the
Speaker 2: patriarch of the annual hunting traditions. So he was the
Speaker 2: head honcho of the hunting party, which is pretty typical
Speaker 2: guys like him with you know, probably his sons and
Speaker 2: their grandsons. And he's got every.
Speaker 1: Type of overall you can imagine, he's learning like the
Speaker 1: everyone's a huge I mean, he literally is like a
Speaker 1: stereotypical paupaw. Yeah, he's hunting elk in the mountains. Yeah,
Speaker 1: he's an overhaul overall. Yeah, he likes him. It's a
Speaker 1: nice picture of him, and I'm guessing like your granddaughter
Speaker 1: or something.
Speaker 2: Yeah. No, he looks like a fun guy. Yeah, he
Speaker 2: seems really cool and everyone probably be lucky to have
Speaker 2: a grandpa like that. Medical issues, like I said, no
Speaker 2: cognitive disabilities to mention impairments were publicly disco disclosed. The
Speaker 2: only physical note was age related difficulty walking long distances
Speaker 2: and a lack of altitude acclamations. So, like Joe had
Speaker 2: mentioned earlier, he's his body's used to five hundred feet
Speaker 2: of elevation in Oklahoma, and now all of a sudden,
Speaker 2: he's at ninety five hundred feet. I remember going skiing
Speaker 2: out in Colorado. In the first like two days we
Speaker 2: were there, I was dying. Yeah.
Speaker 1: It can like just make you feel like crap. Yeah,
Speaker 1: you just you don't feel right. But you get used
Speaker 1: to it, you do get used to occupation hobby. Like
Speaker 1: I said, retired school teacher and principle, he was a
Speaker 1: lifelong hunter, specifically hunting elk in Colorado in the high country,
Speaker 1: and like I said, This was an annual family tradition,
Speaker 1: so not just a casual one off hunting trip. Experience
Speaker 1: in wilderness very significant. He was an experienced lifelong hunter
Speaker 1: who had been making annual trips from Oklahoma to Colorado
Speaker 1: mountains for years. He was very comfortable in the back
Speaker 1: country camping, rifle hunting, and operating in remote forest terrain.
Speaker 1: He was, though not described as a survivalist, mountaineer or
Speaker 1: backcountry trucker. His hunting style, obviously by this age, was
Speaker 1: sitting and just sitting there and waiting for the animals
Speaker 1: to be driven to him.
Speaker 2: But still, he's been up there a lot, and he
Speaker 2: knows what it's like, what the experience is, so pretty
Speaker 2: experience and experience in this location is very high. Him
Speaker 2: and his family have hunted in the same area for
Speaker 2: five consecutive years. At this point, they've camped at the
Speaker 2: same spot along Road five six four A, and the
Speaker 2: morning he disappeared, he was positioned near a meadow where
Speaker 2: he had hunted the year before, so, by every account,
Speaker 2: very familiar with this location. It was not unknown country
Speaker 2: to him, so he knew everything about the area. So
Speaker 2: we'll jump right into timeline. So we'll start Friday, October
Speaker 2: eighteenth of twenty nineteen, so this would be the day before,
Speaker 2: so this would actually be the last time he used
Speaker 2: his cell phone, and at some point after that final use,
Speaker 2: the phone either powered off or its battery died. Investigators
Speaker 2: would later attempt to repeatedly ping the device for a signal,
Speaker 2: but never received one. It's now Saturday, October twenty ninth
Speaker 2: or October nineteenth of twenty nineteen, so this would be
Speaker 2: the day he disappeared, so it's morning. It's Saturday, October nineteenth.
Speaker 2: The hunting party drove Elvie out from camp and walked
Speaker 2: him approximately one hundred yards down an unnamed trail at
Speaker 2: the end of Road five to six four A. So
Speaker 2: they left him alone to hunt near a meadow where he,
Speaker 2: like I said, hunted successfully the previous year, a familiar
Speaker 2: comfortable spot, and like Joe said, this unnamed trail eventually
Speaker 2: connects with Roaring Fork Road, which was Forest Road four
Speaker 2: thirty five, about two miles downhill. So before leaving, the
Speaker 2: family made a clear plan, so, as a family member
Speaker 2: later recounted to investigators, they told him, now we'll pick
Speaker 2: you up at the bottom of the hill on the
Speaker 2: road around ten o'clock, and like I said, alv was
Speaker 2: dressed in hive visibility clothing that most hunters wear if
Speaker 2: you're hunting deer, especially in Wisconsin, you wear just complete
Speaker 2: blaze orange and that you don't want to get shot
Speaker 2: by someone else. So he was in bright orange hat,
Speaker 2: bright orange hunter's vest with a camouflage jacket under it.
Speaker 2: He had a little bit of food, but really no
Speaker 2: survival gear at all. So nine am rolls around. Members
Speaker 2: of the hunting party heard a single gunshot come from
Speaker 2: the general direction where alv was left, and at the
Speaker 2: time no one thought much of it. It was the
Speaker 2: middle of elk season in an actively hunted forest, and
Speaker 2: investigators would later check the area but find no evidence
Speaker 2: of a shot animal. They didn't find blood, carcass, and
Speaker 2: no signs of a kill. If you ever have gone
Speaker 2: deer hunting in the Midwest or wherever you would deer hunt,
Speaker 2: like opening day, it's not uncommon to hear gunshots off distance.
Speaker 2: It's especially if you're hunting in an area that's more populated.
Speaker 2: So I can imagine they heard that gunshot and they
Speaker 2: didn't think anything of it. Maybe even they thought maybe
Speaker 2: Alvie got.
Speaker 1: Something I've that was gonna be my first assumptions he
Speaker 1: shot at something.
Speaker 2: And I will say too, when you're out in kind
Speaker 2: of the wilderness like that and you hear a gunshot,
Speaker 2: it might be deceivingly farther away than you think, just because,
Speaker 2: especially in a mountainous environment, it could be echoing off things.
Speaker 2: So they may have thought it was closer when in
Speaker 2: fact it was probably someone much farther away. But interesting. Nonetheless,
Speaker 2: it's now ten am. Same day, Alvie's son drove to
Speaker 2: the agreed upon pickup spot at the bottom of the hill,
Speaker 2: but Alvie was not there. The sun weighted, assuming his
Speaker 2: father had simply run behind, But as a family member
Speaker 2: later put it, they quoted, Papa didn't show up, so
Speaker 2: really he was not out there very long. They dropped
Speaker 2: him off early in the morning and by ten am
Speaker 2: he was supposed to be picked up, so basically just
Speaker 2: an early morning hunt three four hours. So the hunting
Speaker 2: party almost immediately began searching the area, the trail, the meadow,
Speaker 2: the surrounding timber. They found no sign of him, no belongings,
Speaker 2: no drop gear, no tracks leading to anywhere obvious. They
Speaker 2: checked back at the pickup location. They checked farther up
Speaker 2: the trail, there was absolutely no trace of them anywhere.
Speaker 2: And remember it was noted that he had mobility issues,
Speaker 2: so he actually needed to be helped a little bit
Speaker 2: when he was moving around out there, which makes it
Speaker 2: even more strange that they didn't find anything. Yea, like,
Speaker 2: no gear, nothing, crazy. Yeah, So it's now four PM,
Speaker 2: so they've spent all days searching for him, didn't find anything.
Speaker 2: Daylight is starting the fade. The family contacts the Montezuma
Speaker 2: County Sheriff's office report him missing, and the emergency manager,
Speaker 2: Mike Pasquin confirmed the overdue hunter report. By five PM.
Speaker 2: A larger coordinated search mission was launched under the direction
Speaker 2: of Montezuma County Sheriff Steve Nolan, which Joe quoted earlier
Speaker 2: in the location profile. It's now Sunday, October twentieth of
Speaker 2: twenty nineteen, and they actually got a dusting of snow overnight,
Speaker 2: and we had a lot of people already ending up
Speaker 2: in the field. So on the ground there was teams
Speaker 2: from the county Search and Rescue, County Sheriff's deputies, and
Speaker 2: a canine search and rescue unit that fanned out through
Speaker 2: the timber and aspen meadows surrounding Road five to six
Speaker 2: four A, and there was a growing contingent of Alvi's
Speaker 2: family and friends that were joining the efforts. So pre
Speaker 2: quick mobilization of people searching for him. They searched almost
Speaker 2: immediately the day before, and then you've got a growing
Speaker 2: presence of professional search teams now in the woods, and
Speaker 2: aerial assets were brought in very quick. So Colorado National
Speaker 2: Guard Blackhawk helicopter worked the area from above. It was
Speaker 2: joined by a Flight for Life Colorado helicopter and me
Speaker 2: as a very day Civil Air Patrol fixed wing aircraft,
Speaker 2: and they were all scanning the heavily wooded terrain for
Speaker 2: any flash of Elvi's bright orange gear. All right, so
Speaker 2: tell us what we're looking at, Joe.
Speaker 1: I'm not cheering yet, Okay, No, it's it's so hard
Speaker 1: to find this, and I think I found it. I did,
Speaker 1: like find Divide Road and into Loris, Colorado, So I'm
Speaker 1: gonna see if that will pull up.
Speaker 2: For those watching, I apologize. I created a really cool
Speaker 2: map that had all of this easily clickable, and I
Speaker 2: couldn't get the work. That's okay, all right, here we go.
Speaker 2: We're on Divide Road.
Speaker 1: So that's five sixty four okay, and I just found
Speaker 1: this one, so I'll have to try and find this
Speaker 1: spur that they're talking five six four A. Yeah, I
Speaker 1: think it said it was. Uh, I'm scanned the looking,
Speaker 1: so you can keep going and I'll chime in once I.
Speaker 2: Okay, arrow it down. So obviously, like I said, it's Sunday,
Speaker 2: October twentieth, we've got I.
Speaker 1: Mean, look at how remote it as though. Yeah, it's
Speaker 1: I mean you are away from everything. M hm, yeah,
Speaker 1: I mean this is the part of Colorado. I've actually
Speaker 1: never been to the southwest area, but it's remote. If
Speaker 1: you zoom out, there's I'm trying to think of. I
Speaker 1: think I saw it. Tell you ride okay, yeah, here's
Speaker 1: tell you ride up here. Yeah, Dunton. This is where
Speaker 1: I was actually in Duntin, So you have been over here.
Speaker 1: I have been over I didn't. I didn't know that's
Speaker 1: where Dunton was.
Speaker 2: Yeah. I went there to.
Speaker 1: Retreat. Wow, there's done the springs, Yeah, dun hot in
Speaker 1: the hot springs. I stayed right in this cabin.
Speaker 2: Lucky you.
Speaker 1: Oh yeah, I'll pull up some pictures and show you
Speaker 1: as we're going on but it was.
Speaker 2: I highly recommend it. It was amazing. Well, this looks
Speaker 2: like a cool part of Colorado that I need to
Speaker 2: get to. I rented. I rented a car to get here. Yeah,
Speaker 2: I just droid the where did you come from?
Speaker 1: I forget where we flew in? I mean if you
Speaker 1: scroll out were I mean there's it might have been
Speaker 1: like tell your ride. Yeah, I think it was okay,
Speaker 1: looking over by Cassie to see if she heard me
Speaker 1: and could tell me she was there with me. Well
Speaker 1: you got there somehow I can rented a car. I
Speaker 1: rented a car and it was so much fun off
Speaker 1: routing in the little rental. Just got your deposit back?
Speaker 2: Oh yeah I did. I didn't. I didn't blow tire
Speaker 2: or anything. How long ago was this? Uh? Two or
Speaker 2: three years ago? Okay, long enough? They can't. Yeah, they
Speaker 2: can't come back at you. That's the guy. I'll I'll
Speaker 2: make headlines. Will be worth it. So where was I Sunday?
Speaker 2: So yeah, We've got a lot of professional search teams
Speaker 2: on the ground. We've got aerial assets in the air,
Speaker 2: two helicopters and a fixed wing aircraft. So quite a
Speaker 2: few people are now searching for him after dark we
Speaker 2: had drones equipped with infrared cameras launched. They were hoping
Speaker 2: to detect maybe a heat signature anywhere in the search grid. Unfortunately,
Speaker 2: there were no heat signatures consistent with a person found,
Speaker 2: and at this time authorities continued attempting to ping his
Speaker 2: cell phone throughout the day, but the like we said,
Speaker 2: the phone either was turned off or ran out of battery.
Speaker 2: Back in eastern Oklahoma, family members and friends began circulating
Speaker 2: desperate please on Facebook and social media. One family friend
Speaker 2: wrote that she emailed the Today Show, NBCABCCBS Nightly News
Speaker 2: in an attempt to bring national attention to the search.
Speaker 2: It's now Monday, October twenty first of twenty nineteen, so
Speaker 2: we've now got approximately twenty five searchers in the area
Speaker 2: doing a formal grid pattern, walking shoulder to shoulder with
Speaker 2: personnel space roughly thirty feet apart. And they were doing
Speaker 2: this through the aspen meadows where he was last seen
Speaker 2: between nine to nine thirty am. One of the searches
Speaker 2: reported hearing what sounded like a muffled gunshot. Very interesting.
Speaker 2: Teams converged on the general direction of the sound, but
Speaker 2: found only signs consistent with other hunting activity and animals
Speaker 2: being taken elsewhere in the forest, so no evidence connected
Speaker 2: to the sound to him, so and they didn't find
Speaker 2: any shell casings, blood, or again a trace of him.
Speaker 2: So from Tuesday to Wednesday, this would be October twenty
Speaker 2: second to twenty third of twenty nineteen, the ground and
Speaker 2: aerial operations continued as unfortunately, a strong winter storm pushed
Speaker 2: into southwestern Colorado, so snow was falling across the search area.
Speaker 2: Overnight temperatures plunged into the low twenties. So for an
Speaker 2: eighty six year old guy just in a cameo jacket
Speaker 2: and a vest carrying only a few food bars and water,
Speaker 2: survival at this point in these conditions without shelter would
Speaker 2: be near to impossible. And every night the search went on,
Speaker 2: I think the realization set in that that not finding
Speaker 2: him like right now, might you know, might turn this
Speaker 2: into a recovery effort, sadly, because even if you have
Speaker 2: the survival gear for conditions like that up at elevation,
Speaker 2: that's that's some tough nights. Oh yeah, it'd be really tough. Absolutely,
Speaker 2: So searchers continued, they cross covered ground that they'd already walked.
Speaker 2: That's common. We've done many cases where searchers might have
Speaker 2: searched in a specific area three four times, and then
Speaker 2: two or three years later, remains are found in that
Speaker 2: spot that was searched three or four times yea. Or
Speaker 2: they'll find an item of clothing or a boot or
Speaker 2: something like that. So a lot of times searchers will
Speaker 2: research areas over and over again. And well that's when.
Speaker 1: They always do training missions and areas where they know
Speaker 1: people have gone missing.
Speaker 2: Yeah, and I mean you think we've probably been in
Speaker 2: areas like this where it's in spots really thick. Yeah,
Speaker 2: and you know you could miss something easily the first
Speaker 2: second or even maybe the third time walking by it.
Speaker 2: So not uncommon. And like I said, they were re
Speaker 2: checking areas in a systematic effort to ensure nothing had
Speaker 2: been missed. The train, according to searchers, was thoroughly combed,
Speaker 2: the open meadows, the timber edges, the drainages, the steeper cuts.
Speaker 2: Nothing was found. They didn't even find a single bootprint.
Speaker 2: They didn't find a piece of gear, not even a
Speaker 2: scrap of orange fabric. I mean they literally found nothing,
Speaker 2: like he wasn't there, which is crazy. So I said,
Speaker 2: this is a very similar case to tom Messeick.
Speaker 1: All right, here's Rolling Forks Road in road Forks Creek.
Speaker 1: So we've narrowed down to the area. You sharing it, Yes,
Speaker 1: I am sharing it.
Speaker 2: Awesome. So it's like this section, okay, as.
Speaker 1: I zoom way out, like, look at how in the
Speaker 1: middle of nowhere that is? Yeah, that is They were
Speaker 1: down here because they said it was where Rolling Folks
Speaker 1: Road it meets an unnamed road and I think.
Speaker 2: And their camp was kind of up top and it
Speaker 2: kind of it tilted down. Yeah, so it's got to
Speaker 2: be in this window right here. That's remote. That's so remote.
Speaker 1: Let's see if there's any nothing. There's not even no street.
Speaker 1: No one took any photos. Yeah, that at least can
Speaker 1: go to Google. Yeah, there's nothing. It is actually the
Speaker 1: most I've ever seen of Yeah, look at it's only
Speaker 1: out to the freeway. Like, no one's ever taken a
Speaker 1: picture on the Divide Road or Roaring Creeks that has.
Speaker 2: Gotten to Google yet.
Speaker 1: So if anyone's in the area and wants to contribute, yeah,
Speaker 1: you'd be the first.
Speaker 2: I always thought it would be really cool. Have you
Speaker 2: ever seen one of those Google Trail backpacks? Yes?
Speaker 1: Yeah, you want to do that.
Speaker 2: Well, if I didn't have to work for a living,
Speaker 2: it would be cool to just hike around Google backpack, Yeah,
Speaker 2: hike around and just photograph all these places that are
Speaker 2: obviously people go here, but relatively little traffic probably comes
Speaker 2: through a lot of these places.
Speaker 1: I would tell you that's the case, because there's no nothing, nothing.
Speaker 2: It would be really cool to be able to like
Speaker 2: catalog and yeah, I don't.
Speaker 1: Know, I'll go to the closest one right when the
Speaker 1: road turns off. This is as close as you get.
Speaker 2: And I mean, look at that road. It gets not
Speaker 2: too far off the road, let's see. And then right
Speaker 2: down here, this is the only shot you get. Yeah,
Speaker 2: and it just goes up there. Yeah, it's it's uh remote,
Speaker 2: thick country. Yeah, it's cool though. I would love to
Speaker 2: go hiking there. I say that every episode. Yep, just
Speaker 2: gotta do it one day. It's gotta go hiking everywhere. Yeah. Right, So,
Speaker 2: like I said, they have combed some of these areas
Speaker 2: multiple times and they're not even finding a single bootprint
Speaker 2: gear nothing like his rifle. He has limited mobility if
Speaker 2: he's gonna if he's probably in a situation where he
Speaker 2: was trying to walk out. He's probably not going to
Speaker 2: try and carry that rifle with him. That's going to
Speaker 2: be a hindrance. Yeah, potentially, So they didn't even find
Speaker 2: a rifle and rifles. If he dropped a rifle, that's
Speaker 2: not going to just wash away or an animal's not
Speaker 2: going to take that. It's going to be there. And
Speaker 2: with how remote this is, I doubt anyone else is
Speaker 2: hike him through there, you know not, Yeah, one hundred percent. Yeah,
Speaker 2: So sadly October twenty fourth.
Speaker 1: If they're hunters, you know, they probably like that remoteness
Speaker 1: of that area, So no one's trapesing through.
Speaker 2: Yeah. I mean it's so vad that's why you'd go
Speaker 2: hunting in an area like this. It's so vast that
Speaker 2: you're likely to not see anyone else.
Speaker 1: So when we were going to dunt In Springs, there
Speaker 1: were a bunch of hunters along the road we went,
Speaker 1: and they literally just pull off and park. Yeah, and
Speaker 1: then they wander off into there and that's all they'll do. Yeah,
Speaker 1: it's along the whole road. But I was on like
Speaker 1: a main vein going to a tourist spot. You're on
Speaker 1: like a paved highway.
Speaker 2: Uh not in the mountain. No, it was. It was
Speaker 2: it was rough.
Speaker 1: It was four wheel driving and I was not in
Speaker 1: a four wheel like, yeah, I ruined it and I
Speaker 1: was like rally racing through there, and my wife was
Speaker 1: like freaking out.
Speaker 2: I was just like I was bombing through there. Like
Speaker 2: that's like my my journey on the Alaska Highway and
Speaker 2: the Nissan Ultimate that we had bottomed out a few times.
Speaker 1: Oh yeah, this thing is just like it's got no
Speaker 1: shock system left after me, I took our.
Speaker 2: Car through the car wash though before we returned it. Yeah,
Speaker 2: I didn't do anything. Yeah, I didn't do none of that.
Speaker 2: So October, here, here's our cabin. Oh jeez, we go back.
Speaker 2: Looks very rustic.
Speaker 1: So it's an old mining town and like old bank
Speaker 1: robbers would hide out there.
Speaker 2: Cool.
Speaker 1: So like it's all the cabin they like restored everything,
Speaker 1: but like it is gorgeous. But this is like only
Speaker 1: a few miles away roughly if you can. So everyone
Speaker 1: stays in different cabins.
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's cool. It's it's cool. Imagine one hundred years
Speaker 2: ago the Hot Springs.
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's it's like a bougie yeah, outdoor, outdoor place.
Speaker 2: Jewel was in the room we're in just before us.
Speaker 1: Oh not with you, not with us, No, no, And
Speaker 1: like I guess, the Kardashians were there a couple of
Speaker 1: weeks ago and they rented the whole place out, so
Speaker 1: it's like a very bougie place. We went with a
Speaker 1: professional group that we are with. I was gonna say,
Speaker 1: why did you get invited? Because I'm boogie liked that mic.
Speaker 1: But there's like the hiking was incredible. We got to
Speaker 1: make our own tea from like the stuff we found.
Speaker 2: Wow.
Speaker 1: So yeah, go to Dunton Hot Springs. But here here's
Speaker 1: a good mountaintop meadow we hiked to picnic.
Speaker 2: So I envision this being similar to what Alvi was
Speaker 2: sitting in hunting, not probably out in the open like that,
Speaker 2: because when you're hunting you don't want that. It was
Speaker 2: like in a blind Yeah, it's like.
Speaker 1: In a location that's maybe a little more. Yeah, but
Speaker 1: when I zoom out, see how there's like the clearing meadows.
Speaker 1: This is a rich shop reservoir. So they would have
Speaker 1: been like off these main shoots. Yeah, and there are
Speaker 1: openings like look at this. Yeah, there's some significant openings,
Speaker 1: which I mean that makes it more mysterious. Oh yeah,
Speaker 1: because it's dense in some spots, but yeah, like I've
Speaker 1: been through this forest now I can actually say like, yeah,
Speaker 1: there's some very dense areas, but there's also very open areas.
Speaker 2: Yeah. So October twenty fourth, twenty nineteen, sadly, the official
Speaker 2: search was suspended. So after five intensive days of searching,
Speaker 2: the official operation was formally suspended. Sheriff Nolan publicly expressed
Speaker 2: deep frustration at the outcome. He was quoted as saying,
Speaker 2: we looked all over and searched a large area thirty
Speaker 2: yards at a time, but there was no sign of him,
Speaker 2: no clues. We had thirty people, we had people thirty
Speaker 2: feet apart, and that's mostly aspen meadows in that area.
Speaker 2: We cross covered areas we had already been over. We
Speaker 2: should have found him, but there was no sign of
Speaker 2: him anywhere. It's frustrating nobody's finding anything. The sheriff also
Speaker 2: emphasized that given his age, his limited mobility, and the
Speaker 2: fact that he hadn't had time to acclimate to the
Speaker 2: ninety five hundred foot altitude, he should not have been
Speaker 2: able to walk very far from where he was dropped off,
Speaker 2: making the total absence of any physical evidence deeply puzzling.
Speaker 2: So this is quote directly from the sheriff that was
Speaker 2: running the search operation. He found it incredibly strange and
Speaker 2: odd that absolutely nothing was found from a gentleman who,
Speaker 2: in all rights would not be able to walk more
Speaker 2: than thirty feet on his own. Yeah, that's crazy. So
Speaker 2: the sheriff's office stated that the official search would resume
Speaker 2: immediately if any new clue surfaced, and anyone with information
Speaker 2: was directed to call their office at nine seven zero
Speaker 2: five six five eight four or five to two or
Speaker 2: their dispatch at nine seven zero five six five eight
Speaker 2: four five four. It's now late October early November of
Speaker 2: twenty nineteen. At this time, the family continued searching. So
Speaker 2: after the official search was called off, his family and
Speaker 2: friends stayed behind in the San Juan National Forest, continuing
Speaker 2: the search on their own. They were walking ridgelines, checking drainages,
Speaker 2: and spoke with other hunters in the area, but sadly, again,
Speaker 2: they didn't find a single piece of evidence that he
Speaker 2: was really even there. By November fifth, nearly twenty days
Speaker 2: after the disappearance, there were advocacy groups that were starting
Speaker 2: to circulate his photo and case details across social media. Unfortunately,
Speaker 2: heavy snow and falling temperatures across the high country were
Speaker 2: rapidly closing the window for any further search efforts, and
Speaker 2: by the end of twenty nineteen, his disappearance was noted
Speaker 2: alongside that of another elderly man, Ramon Brown, who was
Speaker 2: eighty six, who had also gone missing in the same
Speaker 2: area in July of twenty nineteen and was likewise never found.
Speaker 2: And it's just it's puzzling. Winter twenty nineteen into spring
Speaker 2: of twenty twenty, as winter buried the San Juan's on
Speaker 2: our heavy snowfall, a ground searching effectively ceased. There's no
Speaker 2: way you can search in that and the divide Road
Speaker 2: Roaring Fork area becomes largely inaccessible during the winter months,
Speaker 2: and the case remained open with the County Sheriff's office,
Speaker 2: but there were no significant developments during this time. In
Speaker 2: August twenty twenty, people started looking at the case again
Speaker 2: and just the lack of physical evidence, so it's kind
Speaker 2: of starting to pick up steam with the online community.
Speaker 2: They did this grid search thirty feet apart and they
Speaker 2: found nothing, so very interesting case. It keeps bubbling up
Speaker 2: every couple of years. Twenty twenty one, it got some
Speaker 2: broader coverage. People started covering it on TV shows and
Speaker 2: forums like Web Sleuths. We're trying to solve it or
Speaker 2: figure out what happened, and then it it really gained
Speaker 2: steam in September of twenty twenty five. And this so,
Speaker 2: like Joe said in the beginning, we're going to do
Speaker 2: a little mini series here of hunters that have gone
Speaker 2: missing in Colorado. And our next episode will actually be
Speaker 2: on a pair of Elk hunters that went missing, Andrew
Speaker 2: Porter and Ian Stasco in September of twenty twenty five,
Speaker 2: so not very long long ago. I won't I won't
Speaker 2: say anything more about the case to kind of leave
Speaker 2: it a little mysterious. There you go again. But this
Speaker 2: the case of Alvie kind of came up again when
Speaker 2: these two hunters went missing, because this is something that
Speaker 2: has happened multiple times and it's it came up again
Speaker 2: this spring. So our final episode of the mini series
Speaker 2: is going to talk about a very recent case of
Speaker 2: a hunter was Caden Sites. And this case is so recent,
Speaker 2: Joe and I made the decision we're going to let
Speaker 2: it breathe for a few weeks and let the family
Speaker 2: get closure. And before we start talking about it, so
Speaker 2: we'll we'll talk about that case and probably.
Speaker 1: Yeah, it was brought to us because he was still
Speaker 1: missing and we were going to cover it, and then yeah, yeah,
Speaker 1: this active that case is very interesting, strange in my opinion,
Speaker 1: I don't want to get into theories because sadly, I
Speaker 1: was texting with Joe the other day and I I
Speaker 1: wanted to try.
Speaker 2: And cover We wanted to cover a case that was ongoing,
Speaker 2: and the Caden Sites case has been ongoing for a
Speaker 2: few weeks now, and as I was texting Joe, they
Speaker 2: they found his remains, and so we decided we're not
Speaker 2: going to cover it right now. We're going to wait
Speaker 2: at least a month. So we'll close out the series
Speaker 2: on Missing Hunters with Caiden in a month or so.
Speaker 2: But his case is very interesting. Each one of these
Speaker 2: cases has a different aspect. So the Alvi case we
Speaker 2: just talked about is very mysterious. His family dropped him off.
Speaker 2: He's elderly, he can't move really, he was only at
Speaker 2: that spot for maybe four hours and then vanished off
Speaker 2: the face of the earth. They found nothing, and it's
Speaker 2: a very remote area. There's not a lot of other
Speaker 2: people there. What happened. So well's I guess let's get
Speaker 2: into theories. So before I jump into theories, let's just recap.
Speaker 2: I would say the odds were stacked against Alva in
Speaker 2: a traditional sense of conditions, and the altitude ninety five
Speaker 2: hundred feet. He'd only been there for a few days.
Speaker 2: He could have been suffering from altitude sickness, maybe at
Speaker 2: his age, just general age related. Maybe his body doesn't
Speaker 2: process oxygen as good as someone that's twenty m so
Speaker 2: that could impact that could create a problem with altitude
Speaker 2: sickness even quicker. Like we've said throughout the episode, he
Speaker 2: had limited mobility. He's not going to be able to
Speaker 2: walk very far, and especially if he's at high elevation,
Speaker 2: it's having an effect on him that reduces the distance
Speaker 2: he can walk even further. And Joe and I but
Speaker 2: from being in high altitude areas, as someone in my twenties,
Speaker 2: it when you first get there, it's hard, and it's
Speaker 2: even when you're young and fit, it's not easy to
Speaker 2: move around, and so you get acclimated to it. So
Speaker 2: but cell phone died, so searchers had no way of
Speaker 2: pinging his phone to see maybe where his last known
Speaker 2: location was. It was a simple, time limited plan. He
Speaker 2: was one hundred yards away from their camp and he
Speaker 2: was only there for a few hours and they didn't
Speaker 2: find anything. Terrain. The terrain, like Joe mentioned in his
Speaker 2: location profile, it can be deceiving, like it's not flat.
Speaker 2: Little lips and things can hide hide a body or
Speaker 2: something from searchers. And the weather was kind of turning hostiles.
Speaker 2: So they really needed to find him like the day
Speaker 2: he went missing, because he had no survival gear. And yeah, absolutely,
Speaker 2: the longer he's in that environment, the worse the outcome
Speaker 2: is going to be. So what are the main theories?
Speaker 2: And when I say main theories, you heard the quote
Speaker 2: from the Sheriff's step. The Sheriff's office, they're baffled by
Speaker 2: this case. Yes, they they do not know what happened
Speaker 2: and why their team could not find and they're familiar
Speaker 2: with the area. They're familiar with the area. They've probably
Speaker 2: done many searches up there, and they know his situation.
Speaker 2: He's elderly, can't move like he should be there. They
Speaker 2: should have found him even if he had. The most
Speaker 2: likely theory that a lot of people talked about is
Speaker 2: medical event and exposure, so he could have suffered a
Speaker 2: heart attack, a stroke. You know, he goes down in
Speaker 2: a concealed spot, deadfall, depression, timber pocket, and then dies
Speaker 2: from exposure as the temperatures drop. Okay, that is a
Speaker 2: good theory, but you got to think at his age
Speaker 2: and his mobility, there's a limited radius of where he
Speaker 2: could have gone, and you would think searchers would be
Speaker 2: all over those. Yeah, absolutely, Like they're not running. He's
Speaker 2: not running. Even if he has some kind of event
Speaker 2: where he's experiencing hypothermia, is starting to kind of make
Speaker 2: irrational decisions. He still physically just can't move that well. Yes,
Speaker 2: so his body is limited. Yeah, so anything that could
Speaker 2: have hidden a body, I feel like within a radius
Speaker 2: of fifty feet from where he was sitting was heavily searched,
Speaker 2: I mean heavily searched. And that kind of falls into
Speaker 2: the second theory that he fell into concealed terrains. This
Speaker 2: could be he steps off trail, possibly to reposition or
Speaker 2: follow game, and falls into a steep drainage drainage or
Speaker 2: over a small ledge or into a thick dead fall.
Speaker 2: Then injury prevents movement and becomes hidden, and the searchers
Speaker 2: didn't find him. So that's a good theory, but again
Speaker 2: I feel like the mobility problem is they're gonna search
Speaker 2: any of those areas that are close by, very very thoroughly.
Speaker 2: The next one is he just gets turned around up there,
Speaker 2: and it's altitude driven hypoxy hypoxia. It causes confusion, poor judgment.
Speaker 2: He moves in the wrong direction, maybe going downhill in
Speaker 2: a thicker timber. There's a word for that. What is it?
Speaker 2: I'm not saying it. You go, I'm like afraid to
Speaker 2: say it now. You developed like a speaking fear say
Speaker 2: I have.
Speaker 1: If we ever get really famous and do like a show,
Speaker 1: people are gonna make you say it live on stage.
Speaker 1: I've been like, and I'm gonna reinforce that. I've been
Speaker 1: shamed by so many people. I just won't say the
Speaker 1: word it is. It is a weird platform because like,
Speaker 1: you and me are still you and me. But like,
Speaker 1: there's ten thousands of people that listen to this, So
Speaker 1: you've had like hundreds of people showing, yeah, but you've
Speaker 1: never met before.
Speaker 2: We've been doing this for almost nine years now, and.
Speaker 1: Yeah, thousands of people that hate you for saying that
Speaker 1: you've never met.
Speaker 2: We've received more hate which is fine. We've received more
Speaker 2: hate than probably a normal person would in their entire
Speaker 2: life in the span of nine years. But you know
Speaker 2: what it, I've got a thick skin, so other things
Speaker 2: in life buged me less now since we started doing this. Yeah,
Speaker 2: it's like you let it roll off your back. Yeah,
Speaker 2: it comes with the territory. Some people like us and
Speaker 2: some people hate us with a passion. Right. My advice
Speaker 2: is just don't listen. It's free.
Speaker 1: Just no one, yeah, just everyone stopped, all right, keep going.
Speaker 2: Sorry.
Speaker 1: Okay, so we've covered the likely theories.
Speaker 2: So next theory is some kind of gunshot related instant,
Speaker 2: so maybe accidental or self inflicted. Now, this one really
Speaker 2: doesn't make sense to me. If it was self inflicted
Speaker 2: or accidentally, they'd find his body, like if he was
Speaker 2: sitting at the spot and like was like cleaning his
Speaker 2: gun and shot himself, like he would be there. Yep,
Speaker 2: they did hear that gunshot at nine am.
Speaker 1: That's where I think, like, there's a gunshot related to
Speaker 1: whatever happened.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I just don't necessarily know what it is. No,
Speaker 2: And being that it's hunting season out there, you're in
Speaker 2: the mountains, it could be echoing it's really not at
Speaker 2: all unlikely that and you know what.
Speaker 1: Sorry to try to cut you off, because I'm just
Speaker 1: thinking going through Dunton when it was hunting season, they
Speaker 1: made us wear blaze orange and we went on our
Speaker 1: hike because hey, people are hunting here. Maybe it is
Speaker 1: more heavily packed. Then maybe I would imagine, like, maybe
Speaker 1: there's not a ton of people out there, but if
Speaker 1: you got like four hunting parties in the area, that's
Speaker 1: where a gunshot wos a good precaution when you're out there.
Speaker 1: I'm just trying to think of, like, Okay, was that
Speaker 1: his gunshot? Because initially I'm like, well, of course it
Speaker 1: was him, because if no one else in their group
Speaker 1: and they're the only ones out there, I'm like, well,
Speaker 1: maybe there was other people out there?
Speaker 2: Was like a signal gunshot? Was he signaling to his
Speaker 2: family that something happened? I Was he shooting at an animal? Yeah?
Speaker 1: I just think I can't definitively say it was his.
Speaker 1: When I initially when you said that, I'm like, oh,
Speaker 1: that was him. I wonder what that means. And I'm like, Okay,
Speaker 1: I think it's a high likelihood it was, But you
Speaker 1: can't guarantee it.
Speaker 2: But the thing is they never found any evidence of
Speaker 2: an animal being shot or I could have missed. I'll
Speaker 2: say this too. Now, when I've gone in the past,
Speaker 2: like grouse hunting in northern Wisconsin, we've been in some
Speaker 2: thick openings where there's like tall grass that's kind of
Speaker 2: been padded down, and sometimes you'll see like a shotgun
Speaker 2: shell sitting there, and if like a shell casne has
Speaker 2: been recently discharged, it's going to land on top of
Speaker 2: the foliage and is relatively easy to see, like we'll
Speaker 2: see all the time, like, oh, like somebody must have
Speaker 2: been here. Yeah, So the fact that searchers didn't find
Speaker 2: any kind of evidence of shell casings or anything like
Speaker 2: that makes you wonder how close was that gun shot
Speaker 2: that I heard? All Right, so I got some theories.
Speaker 2: I'm brilliing. Okay, So the next one is accidental shooting
Speaker 2: by another hunter, so a cover up. So maybe another
Speaker 2: hunter mistakenly shoots him and removes conceals the body to
Speaker 2: avoid consequences. This would explain a lack of evidence. But
Speaker 2: this requires yeah, it requires a difficult, very risky cover up.
Speaker 2: With and left. They were like a pro at.
Speaker 1: It because accidentally shooting someone wearing blaze orange and sitting still.
Speaker 2: And doing it within three or four hours getting his
Speaker 2: body out of there, you'd have to have a vehicle,
Speaker 2: and that would leave evidence hunting stuff like, yeah, you
Speaker 2: don't accidentally shoot him?
Speaker 1: Yeah, like like serious, no, Like I agree down a
Speaker 1: road that they had to walk him down where there's
Speaker 1: only one way in where they probably would have seen.
Speaker 2: A car or even if someone was out there in
Speaker 2: a four wheeler, like investigators would have seen. Yeah, those
Speaker 2: tracks in like trained investigator is going to see those
Speaker 2: tracks leading out of there and there would be bloody.
Speaker 2: But somehow a pro managed to shoot him, conceal it,
Speaker 2: clean the area up, and get him out of there
Speaker 2: in four hours. Yeah I don't think so. Yeah, and
Speaker 2: he didn't put up a fight or shoot back or anything.
Speaker 2: It was one shot and they got him. And yeah,
Speaker 2: I mean that's not it. There's another theory. So post
Speaker 2: mortem's scavenging. So this is kind of after something caused
Speaker 2: his death, could have been anything. Then wildlife scatters the
Speaker 2: remains in gear snow, time terrain, further obscure evidence, explaining
Speaker 2: why nothing has been found so many years later. Okay,
Speaker 2: they didn't find any evidence of that, and like a
Speaker 2: hunting rifle is not going to be scavenged by an
Speaker 2: animal that they'll leave that there. So I don't think
Speaker 2: that's very plausible. We've got foul plays, so non hunting
Speaker 2: related incident, so an encounter with another person leads to
Speaker 2: harm and concealment. Again, no evidence supported this, but it
Speaker 2: remains a theoretical possibility due to the lack of any
Speaker 2: other evidence.
Speaker 1: Yeah, you almost have to consider it because they have
Speaker 1: nothing else to go on.
Speaker 2: Yeah, you know. And then we've round it out with
Speaker 2: the completely unlikely so intentional disappearance no, yeah, he's eighty
Speaker 2: six yep, move on, Yeah, abduction, so someone abducted him.
Speaker 1: I'd say that's more that's more plausible than intentional.
Speaker 2: Almost. Yeah, and then we've got the missing four to
Speaker 2: one one unexplained phenomena. So people are speculating Bigfoot or
Speaker 2: dimensional time shift.
Speaker 1: Honestly, in whatnot abduction or any missing four stuff thrown
Speaker 1: into the ten percent category.
Speaker 2: Okay, so you've heard the case, You've heard the theories.
Speaker 1: What's your what's your theory? All right, I'm gonna I'm
Speaker 1: gonna take some liberties. Oh you are, I think he
Speaker 1: shot at an animal, Yeah, thought he hit it and
Speaker 1: went looking for it. Okay, and if it wasn't elk.
Speaker 1: I mean, you're a hunter. What do animals do when
Speaker 1: they're hit?
Speaker 2: They don't stay put. They go to.
Speaker 1: Ground, usually downhill towards a river, per se. So if
Speaker 1: he's following this thing towards a river thinking he hit it,
Speaker 1: looking for evidence, maybe following the trail in yeah, because
Speaker 1: he's a hunter. Even if you're think about like, okay,
Speaker 1: let's pretend he wasn't of sound mind. Yeah, your natural instinct,
Speaker 1: if you've been a hunter, your whole life is to
Speaker 1: go look for the thing you shot. Yeah, it's a
Speaker 1: big conservation thing, you know. You don't just shoot animals
Speaker 1: and let him die. You're gonna go find it. So
Speaker 1: if he thinks he hit it, and he's sharp enough
Speaker 1: to thinks he hit it, yeah, and he's fairly mobile.
Speaker 1: I think he walked off looking for an animal and
Speaker 1: just simply got lost, fell maybe like stepped into one
Speaker 1: of those depressions or reservoir where it didn't seem like that,
Speaker 1: and then either injured himself to the point where he
Speaker 1: wasn't able to get out, and they just didn't find him.
Speaker 2: I mean I think, actually I like that theory. I
Speaker 2: would say I wouldn't call him mostly mobile. You gotta
Speaker 2: think the gunshots was heard at nine am. Went to
Speaker 2: pick him up at ten am, So there's an hour
Speaker 2: for him to move to find that animal. Yeah, I'm
Speaker 2: not saying he went far, No, I'm just think trying
Speaker 2: to think how far could he.
Speaker 1: Have gone in an hour. Well, that's where I'm thinking.
Speaker 1: If an animal runs downhill, downhill would be easier. Downhill's easier.
Speaker 2: So he got saw adrenaline go and he's like, I
Speaker 2: gotta find this motivation.
Speaker 1: Gravity on his side, maybe a little mentally impaired from
Speaker 1: the altitude, you know, and cold altitude you can make
Speaker 1: poor decisions.
Speaker 2: He's a little dehydrated. He didn't really have a lot
Speaker 2: of food or water.
Speaker 1: So, like, I really think it it like it's if
Speaker 1: it was his gunshot, It's like, Okay, they didn't see
Speaker 1: that he hit an animal. They didn't find the casing.
Speaker 1: So that's the thing too. The casing would have been
Speaker 1: around the spot unless he picks up his casings. There's
Speaker 1: hunters that do that. Oh yeah, so they don't like,
Speaker 1: do you pick up your casing? So you're not leaving
Speaker 1: it littered, and then he just went searching for it,
Speaker 1: and they're not going to find a bullet. Like No,
Speaker 1: that's that's like a one in a billion.
Speaker 2: And the only thing I would think is, depending on
Speaker 2: the clearing and what type of groundcover there is, would
Speaker 2: that have left any kind of track? I mean they
Speaker 2: had canine units in there too.
Speaker 1: That Yeah, that's that's why I said, I'm taking liberties.
Speaker 1: But I'm just like looking at this, I mean, that's
Speaker 1: the most logical theory that makes sense. That's kind of
Speaker 1: where like it ties the gunshot and he's missing and
Speaker 1: there's no sign of anything.
Speaker 2: He pretty much took everything with him looking for that animal,
Speaker 2: fell into some area where the searchers didn't see him.
Speaker 1: Yeah, maybe got injured, blacked out, and then to come
Speaker 1: to the elements over the time. Unfortunately. That's that's like
Speaker 1: the only thing that kind of.
Speaker 2: Pieces together a lot of the stuff and is very plausible.
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, that's what I think. If not that aliens.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I I do like that that theory. Oh look,
Speaker 2: what are you thinking? I'm thinking it's I think, are
Speaker 2: you in my train? I'm on your train? What other
Speaker 2: theory makes sense? There you go. Even it's like leaving
Speaker 2: your train doesn't make a lot of sense to me
Speaker 2: because of his mobility issues, but it is the most logical.
Speaker 1: That's the only reason I was like when I was so,
Speaker 1: if you look on here, I am showing the screen.
Speaker 1: If you're watching, it's it's hilly. It's not like jagged mountainous.
Speaker 1: And granted I'm looking at.
Speaker 2: The three D of Google Earth, so it could be
Speaker 2: a little offesome. I mean it is, you know, ninety
Speaker 2: five hundred feet. It's it's high up, but it's relatively flat.
Speaker 2: If you're going downhill.
Speaker 1: Yeah, that'd be a tough uphill climb, especially for someone
Speaker 1: of his age, but you got gravity work in your
Speaker 1: favor again, and animal is not going to run up
Speaker 1: hill if it's injured. Yeah, so maybe he thinks it
Speaker 1: went downhill. Granted he also might have not hit it,
Speaker 1: so it's going to run river the heck it wants. Yeah,
Speaker 1: So there's a lot of there's a lot of holes
Speaker 1: I can poke in mine. Yeah, in my theory, but
Speaker 1: it's the only thing I can think of.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I don't know, it's this doesn't this remind of
Speaker 2: you of the Tom Messick kiss it does, yeah, very much,
Speaker 2: because that was another hunter that literally vanished like off
Speaker 2: the face of the planet. And I would say that
Speaker 2: one's even more mysterious because he was hunting out in
Speaker 2: New York State, far less remote and the terrain was
Speaker 2: far less.
Speaker 1: Can we get the coordinates of each one and see
Speaker 1: if it like does a thing? Are there vies at
Speaker 1: each point they like triangulate to a vile vortices?
Speaker 2: Yeah? Something.
Speaker 1: You know what I've been watching recently Monarch. Yeah, I
Speaker 1: don't know what that is.
Speaker 2: Apple TV. It's a Godzilla show. It's actually really it's
Speaker 2: got Kurt Russell in it, and okay, it's actually really good.
Speaker 1: It's got Kurt Russell's got to watch it. Kurt Russell's
Speaker 1: in it.
Speaker 2: But they basically have these escape from la right, they
Speaker 2: have basically have these these like dimensions that open up
Speaker 2: around the Earth that connects Earth with the like, oh God,
Speaker 2: it comes from to mention where the Titans come from.
Speaker 2: They're called Titans.
Speaker 1: So I think that's a plausible thing on what happened here.
Speaker 2: Yeah, Monarch, Monarch, If anyone listening, it's on Apple TV.
Speaker 2: It's actually pretty good show.
Speaker 1: You go free promo for a giant television show.
Speaker 2: On TV.
Speaker 1: Awesome. Well, I don't have anything else.
Speaker 2: I am completely baffled by this and like me to
Speaker 2: I say that sometimes when I'm not that baffled, we.
Speaker 1: Have but just for showmanship.
Speaker 2: I am truly baffled by this guy. Yes, me too.
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