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Sign up now at 44 00:01:57.680 --> 00:01:59.760 chumbacasino dot com. 45 00:02:00.000 --> 00:02:02.680 Not necesary, etiever, I lost your regnition's eating class. 46 00:02:04.480 --> 00:02:04.959 Luck to. 47 00:02:14.960 --> 00:02:18.360 You are now listening to True Murder the most shocking 48 00:02:18.439 --> 00:02:21.439 killers in true crime history and the authors that have 49 00:02:21.560 --> 00:02:28.800 written about them. Gasey, Bundy, Dahmer, The Nightstalker DTK. Every 50 00:02:28.879 --> 00:02:32.520 week another fascinating author talking about the most shocking and 51 00:02:32.680 --> 00:02:36.800 infamous killers in true crime history. True Murder with Your 52 00:02:36.879 --> 00:02:40.719 Host journalist and author Dan Zufanski. 53 00:02:50.680 --> 00:02:56.199 Good Evening rampage a state of anger or agitation resulting 54 00:02:56.280 --> 00:03:01.439 in violent, reckless and destructive behavior. In nineteen eighty nine, 55 00:03:01.599 --> 00:03:07.360 Mark Lepine mercilessly executed fourteen female students at Montreal's Equal 56 00:03:08.520 --> 00:03:14.080 Polytechnique to become Canada's most notorious mass murderer. The following year, 57 00:03:14.400 --> 00:03:17.840 spree killer Peter John Peter's room from London, Ontario to 58 00:03:17.960 --> 00:03:21.759 Thunder Bay, leaving a trail of bloodied bodies, broken dreams, 59 00:03:22.039 --> 00:03:27.120 and stolen vehicles. Both men experienced the same devastating destiny. 60 00:03:28.560 --> 00:03:32.400 They embarked on homicidal rampages that shook their nation to 61 00:03:32.520 --> 00:03:38.000 the core. Leegh Meller has gathered more than twenty five 62 00:03:38.159 --> 00:03:44.199 of Canada's most lethal spree killers into a single work. 63 00:03:45.599 --> 00:03:49.599 Rampage details their grisly crimes, delves into their twisted psyches, 64 00:03:50.159 --> 00:03:53.360 and dissects their motivations To answer the question every true 65 00:03:53.400 --> 00:03:57.639 crime lover yearns to know why. If you think serial 66 00:03:57.719 --> 00:04:03.039 killers are dangerous, prepare for something even deadlier. The book 67 00:04:03.080 --> 00:04:06.719 that we're featuring this evening is Rampage, with my special guests, 68 00:04:06.840 --> 00:04:09.800 journalist and author and publisher Lee Miller. Welcome back to 69 00:04:09.879 --> 00:04:12.520 the program. Thank you for agreeing to this interview. 70 00:04:12.319 --> 00:04:15.120 Lee Meller, Thanks them great to be back. 71 00:04:17.759 --> 00:04:21.759 Let's get right into this. Before we a little bit 72 00:04:21.839 --> 00:04:23.600 later on, we'll talk about what you've been doing in 73 00:04:23.680 --> 00:04:26.319 the last little while. I understand you've been in Europe, 74 00:04:26.399 --> 00:04:29.519 and so maybe we'll be talking about what's latest in 75 00:04:29.639 --> 00:04:34.120 Serial Killer quarterly. But for now, let's talk about really 76 00:04:34.279 --> 00:04:39.439 the motivation and the reason why you wrote and the 77 00:04:39.519 --> 00:04:44.680 focus of Rampage. We talk about multiple murderers. We alluded 78 00:04:44.720 --> 00:04:48.399 to that in the introduction, So tell us about the 79 00:04:48.560 --> 00:04:52.319 focus of Rampage, why you wanted to do this project, 80 00:04:52.360 --> 00:04:54.879 and what is the focus of this project in the 81 00:04:54.920 --> 00:04:55.680 book Rampage. 82 00:04:56.879 --> 00:04:59.839 Rampage was a book. It just seemed like a natural 83 00:05:00.279 --> 00:05:03.519 success or to my first book, Cool North Killers, Canadian 84 00:05:03.600 --> 00:05:07.319 Serial Murder, and I was thinking of doing it anyways 85 00:05:07.639 --> 00:05:10.920 as kind of a second book. And when Michael Carroll, 86 00:05:10.959 --> 00:05:14.079 who was the acquisitions editor from Dunder and suggested it 87 00:05:14.160 --> 00:05:15.720 to me. I said, he kind of read my mind, 88 00:05:16.240 --> 00:05:18.959 and so it just seemed to be the next step. 89 00:05:19.040 --> 00:05:22.439 There isn't really anything on mass murderers in Canada the 90 00:05:22.600 --> 00:05:27.120 same kind of deal as serial murderers or spree killers, sorry, 91 00:05:27.360 --> 00:05:30.800 and so I decided it probably wouldn't be interesting to 92 00:05:30.879 --> 00:05:33.199 do an exhaustive book of mass murders because you just 93 00:05:33.319 --> 00:05:36.680 have a lot of guys, you know, killing their family members. Unfortunately, 94 00:05:36.800 --> 00:05:39.040 that's probably the most dominant trend. But what I did 95 00:05:39.160 --> 00:05:41.439 is I took the twenty five cases that I felt 96 00:05:41.480 --> 00:05:46.519 were the most interesting or illustrative of certain concepts or 97 00:05:46.839 --> 00:05:49.040 types of mass murderers and spree killers, and I put 98 00:05:49.079 --> 00:05:52.399 them all into Rampage. And the end product is there's 99 00:05:52.519 --> 00:05:56.560 some really diverse criminals in there, and it makes for 100 00:05:56.759 --> 00:06:00.480 very interesting reads. So yeah, that's pretty much. It so 101 00:06:00.639 --> 00:06:03.240 a lot simpler than the Genesis of the Cold North 102 00:06:03.319 --> 00:06:04.879 Killers one. You know, it's just like, okay, well it 103 00:06:04.920 --> 00:06:06.040 makes sense to do it next. 104 00:06:07.360 --> 00:06:11.920 Right now, as you do in the book. Let's for audience, 105 00:06:12.000 --> 00:06:19.040 let's define mass murder and spree killing. And I want 106 00:06:19.079 --> 00:06:21.439 you to explain really too. If I found it very 107 00:06:21.519 --> 00:06:25.959 interesting that you said this book serves as a didactic encyclopedia. 108 00:06:26.600 --> 00:06:30.399 So let's define mass murder and spree killing as opposed 109 00:06:30.399 --> 00:06:33.199 to serial killing. Tell us what is that inherent difference 110 00:06:33.319 --> 00:06:36.160 or what you believe is the difference for the purpose 111 00:06:36.240 --> 00:06:39.759 of a categorization here, And also if you could explain 112 00:06:39.800 --> 00:06:45.600 what you mean by didatic didactic encyclopedia, sure, I'll get that. 113 00:06:45.680 --> 00:06:48.040 First question out of the way. Sorry, second question out 114 00:06:48.040 --> 00:06:50.600 of the way first, because it's a bit I can 115 00:06:50.800 --> 00:06:53.439 do that quickly. Most encyclopedias, of course, you learn something 116 00:06:54.279 --> 00:06:55.920 by reading them. That's kind of the point of them. 117 00:06:56.399 --> 00:06:58.600 So hearing that, I kind of think, yeah, well, I'm 118 00:06:58.639 --> 00:07:01.040 not sure that was the best word. But bi didactic, 119 00:07:01.120 --> 00:07:05.759 I mean that you're getting an encyclopedia of these different 120 00:07:05.879 --> 00:07:09.040 rampage murderers. But at the same time you're learning about 121 00:07:09.040 --> 00:07:13.600 the concepts associated with rampage murders, so you're not just 122 00:07:13.759 --> 00:07:18.839 learning facts about the individual killers. It's also like themes, 123 00:07:19.279 --> 00:07:24.879 whether it's criminology, psychology, social elements that go into or 124 00:07:24.920 --> 00:07:27.319 you know, criminal justice system matters, which is always a 125 00:07:27.480 --> 00:07:30.959 huge thing, you know, when they mess up. And so yeah, 126 00:07:31.519 --> 00:07:33.920 pretty much that's it. Just the idea that you're getting 127 00:07:33.959 --> 00:07:36.720 sort of like a vertical and horizontal learning in the 128 00:07:36.759 --> 00:07:39.920 same book. But at the same time, it's not a textbook. 129 00:07:39.920 --> 00:07:40.920 It's meant to be a good read. 130 00:07:43.959 --> 00:07:46.240 And now for the second part of the question, what 131 00:07:46.759 --> 00:07:48.839 as you define in the book? What's the difference between 132 00:07:48.920 --> 00:07:53.079 mass murders, free killing, serial killing? What is the inherent 133 00:07:53.120 --> 00:07:53.639 difference is. 134 00:07:54.879 --> 00:08:00.120 Well, mass murderers kill four or more people in a 135 00:08:00.199 --> 00:08:03.439 single location. Now there's a little bit of confusion and 136 00:08:03.560 --> 00:08:07.680 disagreement as to what constitutes a single location. You know, 137 00:08:07.879 --> 00:08:10.240 is it a classroom or is it an entire school? 138 00:08:10.639 --> 00:08:12.920 And that's never really been defined, and that's something I 139 00:08:13.000 --> 00:08:14.480 talk about in the book. I mean, at the end 140 00:08:14.480 --> 00:08:17.360 of the day, these are all social constructs. But to me, 141 00:08:17.480 --> 00:08:20.040 if it's like a building, you know, or a series 142 00:08:20.079 --> 00:08:22.800 of connected buildings, that's a single location. So a mass 143 00:08:22.879 --> 00:08:26.240 murder kills four more people in a single incident at 144 00:08:26.279 --> 00:08:30.000 a single location. So, if you're thinking about in the 145 00:08:30.160 --> 00:08:35.320 US right now, the guy in Oregon recently, I think 146 00:08:35.360 --> 00:08:37.799 that was the most recent one. I'm losing track now, 147 00:08:39.840 --> 00:08:43.559 the guy who shut up the school there, he would 148 00:08:43.559 --> 00:08:45.840 be a mass murderer because he killed four more people, 149 00:08:45.879 --> 00:08:47.720 and it was in a single location. He didn't move 150 00:08:47.759 --> 00:08:51.559 to another location. Do that as opposed to a spree killer. 151 00:08:52.080 --> 00:08:56.919 A spree killer claims two or more victims in two 152 00:08:57.120 --> 00:09:02.279 or more locations, but it's considered to be the same incident, 153 00:09:02.840 --> 00:09:06.039 and that the person doesn't really go back to the 154 00:09:07.840 --> 00:09:13.519 routine of their life once they've committed to it, their 155 00:09:13.639 --> 00:09:15.840 go and so it's really a mass murder that takes 156 00:09:16.799 --> 00:09:20.240 place over several spots and sometimes can spend a week 157 00:09:20.639 --> 00:09:23.759 or anywhere from like a couple of hours to a week. 158 00:09:26.279 --> 00:09:29.200 And you're comparing these two because just in the last 159 00:09:29.279 --> 00:09:32.919 description you spoke to, it's in comparison to the serial 160 00:09:33.000 --> 00:09:36.759 killer with the cooling off period, and so this free 161 00:09:36.840 --> 00:09:40.480 killer is being compared to because that's the first model 162 00:09:40.480 --> 00:09:44.120 that people have had in the last thirty years or so, 163 00:09:44.399 --> 00:09:46.799 was the definition of serial killer. So now we have 164 00:09:48.159 --> 00:09:52.639 you and others defining the spree and mass murder as 165 00:09:53.080 --> 00:09:55.200 compared to serial killer, isn't it. 166 00:09:55.960 --> 00:09:58.559 Yeah, that's something completely different, really, And you hit the 167 00:09:58.639 --> 00:10:00.120 nail on the head when you said it's about that 168 00:10:00.240 --> 00:10:03.440 cooling off period. And we can get in debates too if, oh, well, 169 00:10:03.519 --> 00:10:06.000 what constitutes a cooling off period. At some point you 170 00:10:06.080 --> 00:10:08.759 have to kind of apply common sense. I would say 171 00:10:08.799 --> 00:10:11.799 that the thing with the serial murderer, they're now using 172 00:10:12.159 --> 00:10:14.759 two or more victims rather than three or more, which 173 00:10:15.399 --> 00:10:19.960 they're using until two thousand and five. But yeah, this 174 00:10:20.399 --> 00:10:22.519 idea of a cooling off period is really what separates 175 00:10:22.559 --> 00:10:25.679 them from rampage murders, which include mass murders or spree killers. 176 00:10:25.679 --> 00:10:29.120 And that the serial killer doesn't want to be caught 177 00:10:29.279 --> 00:10:31.559 or is careful not to get caught because they seem 178 00:10:31.600 --> 00:10:35.480 to enjoy doing what they do. They want to be 179 00:10:35.759 --> 00:10:38.840 at large in order to commit more killings, so it's 180 00:10:38.840 --> 00:10:42.360 important for them to be able to kill go back 181 00:10:42.679 --> 00:10:46.320 into the routine of their daily lives. And now that 182 00:10:46.399 --> 00:10:48.480 doesn't mean that there isn't some sort of still a 183 00:10:48.600 --> 00:10:51.480 sexual element that's still under the surface there. You know, 184 00:10:51.519 --> 00:10:54.440 they may have souvenirs or trophies which they use as 185 00:10:54.600 --> 00:10:58.759 masturbatory aids or to kind of like existentially reminisce about 186 00:10:58.799 --> 00:11:02.480 these things. They still always have a little fire going there, 187 00:11:02.559 --> 00:11:05.360 but generally they seem to return back to their lives 188 00:11:05.399 --> 00:11:10.679 and can do that for days, weeks, months, years, you know, 189 00:11:10.799 --> 00:11:14.720 as we saw with BTK. I mean I think he 190 00:11:14.879 --> 00:11:19.000 held off killing for about thirteen years after his last victim. 191 00:11:19.759 --> 00:11:23.000 So yeah, they have the capacity to do that, whereas 192 00:11:23.320 --> 00:11:27.519 a rampage murder commits, and once they're committed, they're committed. 193 00:11:27.679 --> 00:11:29.840 They may be at large for a bit, but everyone 194 00:11:29.919 --> 00:11:31.519 kind of knows who they are and there'll be a 195 00:11:31.600 --> 00:11:35.759 man hunt. And yeah, so that's really the main difference, 196 00:11:35.799 --> 00:11:37.600 if you knows. As much as we can put people 197 00:11:37.799 --> 00:11:42.039 like that into categories, you. 198 00:11:42.120 --> 00:11:47.559 Also write that it's characterized also by this profound or 199 00:11:47.639 --> 00:11:52.440 often or most often or quite often, this profound final event, 200 00:11:53.399 --> 00:11:56.480 which again is much different than the serial killer motivation. 201 00:11:56.600 --> 00:11:57.039 It seems. 202 00:11:58.279 --> 00:12:01.799 Yeah, that's it. Way to think about a rampage killer 203 00:12:01.879 --> 00:12:05.000 is that it's kind of like a suicide note that's 204 00:12:05.399 --> 00:12:10.720 externalized to rather than the individual seems to lose all 205 00:12:10.799 --> 00:12:14.440 hope for a normal life, and rather than going quietly, 206 00:12:14.600 --> 00:12:17.240 they decide to go out with a bang rather than 207 00:12:17.399 --> 00:12:21.679 a whimper, as the saying goes, and so they they 208 00:12:21.720 --> 00:12:23.440 take people with them, and a lot of the times 209 00:12:23.480 --> 00:12:29.000 they will they will leave letters. Especially with these new 210 00:12:29.080 --> 00:12:32.799 killers that we're seeing. We're seeing such so many mass 211 00:12:32.879 --> 00:12:35.679 murders in the States right now, and it seems like 212 00:12:35.759 --> 00:12:38.840 all of them are doing like these video blogs or 213 00:12:41.000 --> 00:12:43.519 sending out letters like it's just commonplace now. It's it's 214 00:12:43.519 --> 00:12:46.919 almost like they want to broadcast I existed and I'm 215 00:12:47.000 --> 00:12:48.720 pissed off that I was denied a good life and 216 00:12:48.799 --> 00:12:51.399 that's become standard. But we don't see that so much 217 00:12:51.480 --> 00:12:52.000 in Canada. 218 00:12:54.240 --> 00:12:58.200 Yet again we've got an extreme example with Luca Magnata. 219 00:12:59.480 --> 00:13:01.600 So I think when if you've got Mark Twitchell and 220 00:13:01.679 --> 00:13:05.080 you've got I don't know a few other examples, I 221 00:13:05.200 --> 00:13:09.320 think everybody, regardless of whether you're where you're living. I 222 00:13:09.399 --> 00:13:11.879 mean America is just the more glaring example, I think. 223 00:13:12.000 --> 00:13:15.679 But I think there's a lot of people in this 224 00:13:16.679 --> 00:13:21.240 what they were calling malignant narcissism, where everybody wants a 225 00:13:21.279 --> 00:13:24.799 little piece of that fifteen minutes of fame. It's symptomatic 226 00:13:24.879 --> 00:13:27.519 of a lot of people, and I think it's I 227 00:13:27.600 --> 00:13:32.480 think it's pretty consistent in terms of these new killers 228 00:13:32.480 --> 00:13:36.000 as well. But let's when we're speaking about a school 229 00:13:36.679 --> 00:13:44.000 killing mass murder, let's talk about this incredible example that 230 00:13:44.080 --> 00:13:46.519 we spoke to and I spoke to in the introduction 231 00:13:47.159 --> 00:13:53.840 about Mark Leapene and the Equal Polytechnique, where fourteen women 232 00:13:53.919 --> 00:13:56.840 were killed, ten women were wounded and four men were 233 00:13:56.879 --> 00:14:03.799 wounded as well. And this was December sixth, nineteen eighty nine. 234 00:14:04.759 --> 00:14:07.960 And so rather than the way you have it in 235 00:14:08.039 --> 00:14:10.000 the book where we talk about the crime and then 236 00:14:10.080 --> 00:14:13.159 you talk about and you've done an incredible job and 237 00:14:13.320 --> 00:14:17.120 amassing quite a background on each one of these cases. 238 00:14:17.159 --> 00:14:19.759 It's incredible the research you've put into this and the 239 00:14:19.879 --> 00:14:22.759 access and the information that you've dug up to really 240 00:14:22.840 --> 00:14:27.440 tell the story and really give a good character analysis 241 00:14:27.720 --> 00:14:31.519 of these killers. It's incredible. So let's talk about Mark Lapine. 242 00:14:31.720 --> 00:14:35.039 He doesn't start off as Mark Lapine. He changes his 243 00:14:35.159 --> 00:14:37.320 name at thirteen years of age. So let's talk about 244 00:14:37.399 --> 00:14:41.679 his background, which is so important to tell the story 245 00:14:41.879 --> 00:14:46.600 of this Mark Lapine and this massacre at e Cole 246 00:14:46.679 --> 00:14:47.480 Pola Technique. 247 00:14:48.600 --> 00:14:52.919 Yeah. I really wanted to get into every background element 248 00:14:53.000 --> 00:14:56.039 with him because typically when you see the story portrayed 249 00:14:56.960 --> 00:15:02.440 that it's this woman hater, he's he's just a misogynist. 250 00:15:02.480 --> 00:15:04.919 It's a it's a political thing, and of course there're 251 00:15:05.120 --> 00:15:07.080 you know, that is a part of it, but there's 252 00:15:07.120 --> 00:15:12.240 this whole iceberg under the water of of of trauma 253 00:15:12.360 --> 00:15:17.799 and and seeming like personality disturbances that sort of underlies that. 254 00:15:18.159 --> 00:15:23.200 So I really wanted to dig into that. Lapine's father 255 00:15:23.639 --> 00:15:29.320 was an abusive man. I believe he was of Algerian background, 256 00:15:30.080 --> 00:15:34.960 and uh this uh, this man Rashid Garbi because Lapine's 257 00:15:35.440 --> 00:15:40.039 h name was Gamil rodrigue LEAs Garby Gamil actually meaning 258 00:15:40.080 --> 00:15:41.919 handsome in Arabic, and. 259 00:15:44.200 --> 00:15:44.600 He was. 260 00:15:47.440 --> 00:15:51.919 His His mother and father had a very kind of 261 00:15:52.120 --> 00:16:01.679 unstable marriage French Canadian mother and and Mark was kind 262 00:16:01.720 --> 00:16:07.399 of neglected as a child. His mother was working so 263 00:16:07.639 --> 00:16:11.639 hard under the sort of draconian father figure that you know, 264 00:16:11.720 --> 00:16:14.120 she'd be typing things out all day and he would 265 00:16:14.200 --> 00:16:18.039 he would beat her when she made a mistake, and 266 00:16:18.200 --> 00:16:19.919 often they would go out at night. They would leave 267 00:16:20.799 --> 00:16:23.399 Gamil later to be Mark all alone in his crib, 268 00:16:24.480 --> 00:16:28.720 and they would his father as he got older. His 269 00:16:28.840 --> 00:16:31.559 father actually beat him once for singing. He woke his 270 00:16:31.679 --> 00:16:33.519 dad up by singing. You know, you think that'd be 271 00:16:34.039 --> 00:16:36.200 a nice thing to hear your son singing happy, but 272 00:16:36.519 --> 00:16:40.039 not in this case. And this so they kind of 273 00:16:40.120 --> 00:16:46.679 lived under this tyrannical patriarch figure for a long time 274 00:16:47.440 --> 00:16:50.159 and finally he went too far. And after that, I'd 275 00:16:50.159 --> 00:16:53.440 believe It was shortly after the incident where Gamill was 276 00:16:53.759 --> 00:16:56.600 beat for crying by his father that his mother said, 277 00:16:56.639 --> 00:17:00.240 you know, that's it. And once she decided that she 278 00:17:00.440 --> 00:17:05.200 was going to leave Rashid, he just completely cut off 279 00:17:05.240 --> 00:17:10.559 all financial support whatsoever. So it left the Gamill and 280 00:17:10.680 --> 00:17:14.759 his sister Nadia, and mother Monique right at the you 281 00:17:14.839 --> 00:17:17.799 know where they needed social assistance and they were struggling 282 00:17:17.880 --> 00:17:22.319 to get by. This had the unfortunate effect of where 283 00:17:23.160 --> 00:17:26.440 the children were already kind of isolated and neglected by 284 00:17:26.480 --> 00:17:29.640 their mother, of deepening that because the mother was forced 285 00:17:29.720 --> 00:17:33.720 to go in and work extremely long hours to try 286 00:17:33.799 --> 00:17:37.720 and get by, and so they're already a lot of 287 00:17:37.799 --> 00:17:40.759 damage happening there, and then the one person they can 288 00:17:40.880 --> 00:17:42.759 bond with, their mother is suddenly kind of out of 289 00:17:42.799 --> 00:17:50.440 the picture. So Monique sent Gamill and Nadia to live 290 00:17:50.519 --> 00:17:53.440 with some caregivers throughout the week, and apparently they didn't 291 00:17:53.759 --> 00:17:56.400 adjust well to that. They always wanted to see their mom, 292 00:17:56.440 --> 00:18:01.599 but they couldn't do so. And at this point Gamil 293 00:18:01.720 --> 00:18:05.160 begins to act out. He took a he'd gone on 294 00:18:05.240 --> 00:18:08.759 the camping trip, I believe with the caregivers, and he 295 00:18:09.559 --> 00:18:12.880 took like a propane tank and I think he attempted 296 00:18:12.920 --> 00:18:14.960 to blow it up or something like that. But the 297 00:18:15.240 --> 00:18:18.160 point was he was doing things to get attention. And 298 00:18:18.279 --> 00:18:21.079 so if you kind of weave all this together, you 299 00:18:21.160 --> 00:18:25.359 can start to see like where this really deep pathology 300 00:18:25.400 --> 00:18:27.640 of a murderer comes from. It's not just political. It 301 00:18:27.720 --> 00:18:31.640 goes all the way back to childhood. And when he's 302 00:18:31.759 --> 00:18:34.759 about twelve, his mother's finally able to take him back, 303 00:18:36.519 --> 00:18:40.240 but now he's showing even more profound signs of disturbance. 304 00:18:41.559 --> 00:18:43.640 He digs a grave for his sister. He doesn't like 305 00:18:43.680 --> 00:18:47.559 his sister. It seems like she's always taunting him and 306 00:18:48.000 --> 00:18:51.079 digging at him, and this really undermines his self esteem, 307 00:18:51.160 --> 00:18:55.160 especially as he's going into puberty. And he actually digs 308 00:18:55.160 --> 00:18:59.480 a grave for his sister in the backyard and his 309 00:18:59.599 --> 00:19:02.359 mother atches them doing this and say, what are you doing? 310 00:19:02.519 --> 00:19:04.720 You like, this is your sister, you know, fill the 311 00:19:04.759 --> 00:19:07.519 hole and he's just kind of the never really explains it, 312 00:19:07.839 --> 00:19:10.519 he but he just fills the hole back in. And 313 00:19:11.240 --> 00:19:15.799 at some point Monique's cat goes missing and she says, 314 00:19:15.880 --> 00:19:20.799 you know, where's the cat going? And Nadia Gamil's sister says, well, 315 00:19:21.599 --> 00:19:23.480 I saw him. I saw him strangle it with a 316 00:19:23.599 --> 00:19:27.559 rope and she Monique asks him about he says, and 317 00:19:27.599 --> 00:19:29.920 I didn't do that, but she never ever sees the 318 00:19:30.039 --> 00:19:33.319 cat again. So this is as he's getting into puberty, 319 00:19:34.079 --> 00:19:37.640 also being called Arab taunted for his you know, the 320 00:19:38.240 --> 00:19:41.920 half Arabic I guess, mixed race background at school, and 321 00:19:42.160 --> 00:19:44.759 so he changes his name to Mark Lapine when he's 322 00:19:44.799 --> 00:19:47.440 thirteen years old. But you know, right there, thirteen years 323 00:19:47.519 --> 00:19:50.000 of and you know, any of those things in isolation 324 00:19:50.400 --> 00:19:53.200 or you know, a couple of them, you will see 325 00:19:53.200 --> 00:19:55.279 that in the lives of many people. But there's a 326 00:19:55.359 --> 00:19:57.599 lot of real subtle stuff adding up there to a 327 00:19:57.680 --> 00:19:59.079 really maladjusted young man. 328 00:20:01.000 --> 00:20:04.200 Now, let's while we're on still the warp psychology that 329 00:20:04.319 --> 00:20:09.960 this person is enduring. Here, he hates his father. It 330 00:20:10.079 --> 00:20:12.200 ends up he really hates his father, and his father 331 00:20:12.400 --> 00:20:17.400 has this very interesting life that's discovered by his by 332 00:20:17.559 --> 00:20:20.960 Mark's mother, in that he has two women by the 333 00:20:21.039 --> 00:20:26.559 same name and is leaving this completely double life. And 334 00:20:26.720 --> 00:20:28.880 like you say, the mother is a French Canadian not 335 00:20:29.039 --> 00:20:35.359 of Arab or Algerian descent, and his sister Nadia is 336 00:20:36.319 --> 00:20:42.119 again ruthless in basically haunting him and his mother as 337 00:20:42.200 --> 00:20:44.599 you say, because of the long work hours and a 338 00:20:44.680 --> 00:20:49.559 combination of other things. He's really being neglected and doesn't 339 00:20:49.559 --> 00:20:53.160 have any positive role models in terms of women. He has, 340 00:20:53.559 --> 00:20:56.039 as you write in the book, no real success in dating. 341 00:20:56.079 --> 00:21:02.599 He's incredibly shy, has acne. So we've got all those things. 342 00:21:02.640 --> 00:21:05.920 And he talks about earlier about this seven years of 343 00:21:06.079 --> 00:21:09.839 no Joy, And I maybe just jumping ahead a little bit, 344 00:21:11.559 --> 00:21:14.160 but where is it because you don't really point it out, 345 00:21:14.200 --> 00:21:20.319 but is there some connection with the mother refusing because 346 00:21:20.319 --> 00:21:22.519 he does go back with his father briefly, you say 347 00:21:22.559 --> 00:21:25.519 in the book, so that there is some confusion in 348 00:21:25.640 --> 00:21:29.319 terms of his loyalty to his parents. But where does 349 00:21:29.359 --> 00:21:33.319 this feminism, this idea of feminism come from, or this 350 00:21:33.599 --> 00:21:39.240 idea that again either some traditional idea of what women 351 00:21:39.880 --> 00:21:44.359 role is in a marriage or in the home. Does 352 00:21:44.880 --> 00:21:48.680 Where does he get these earlier ideas that again will 353 00:21:48.839 --> 00:21:50.960 seem very important later in this story. 354 00:21:52.200 --> 00:21:55.039 Well, I mean he never actually sits down and tells 355 00:21:55.119 --> 00:21:57.400 us or he really has much insight into what is 356 00:21:57.480 --> 00:21:59.640 going on with him. Maybe he didn't know him. Felt 357 00:22:00.359 --> 00:22:03.640 if we can do a little maybe psycho ount analysis 358 00:22:03.720 --> 00:22:08.759 or something like that, I think that the idea that 359 00:22:08.920 --> 00:22:12.519 his mother was always not there for him, like she 360 00:22:12.720 --> 00:22:15.920 was either going out with the father and leaving him 361 00:22:15.920 --> 00:22:19.720 in his crib. Mother admitted that she couldn't go in 362 00:22:20.559 --> 00:22:22.319 to comfort him while he was crying because of her 363 00:22:22.480 --> 00:22:25.440 controlling husband, So at some point he just stopped crying 364 00:22:25.440 --> 00:22:28.079 as a child. So this goes really quite deep. And 365 00:22:28.119 --> 00:22:31.440 then abandoning them as kids to try and get by, 366 00:22:31.920 --> 00:22:34.279 And now she's doing that in the contexts of a 367 00:22:35.000 --> 00:22:38.119 single mother trying to make it in the world, and 368 00:22:38.319 --> 00:22:40.440 she's devoting all of her time to work. Now, I 369 00:22:40.519 --> 00:22:45.759 think it's possible here that marcle Pene begins to see 370 00:22:46.279 --> 00:22:51.160 women in the workforce, perhaps as being tantamount to him 371 00:22:51.200 --> 00:22:54.920 being emotionally neglected and being alone. I think that's very 372 00:22:55.000 --> 00:23:01.599 possible there too. Also getting ribbed all the time by 373 00:23:01.640 --> 00:23:03.960 his sister, he must have really undermined his self. Esteemed 374 00:23:04.039 --> 00:23:07.519 like there was a point where he was having his 375 00:23:07.640 --> 00:23:10.400 first kiss and his sister saw him and made fun 376 00:23:10.480 --> 00:23:12.480 of him, and he I don't think he ever kissed 377 00:23:12.480 --> 00:23:15.200 anyone again that we know of. He was very, very 378 00:23:15.279 --> 00:23:18.279 sensitive to rejection, which he would be if if he 379 00:23:18.400 --> 00:23:21.880 grew up in those kind of conditions, And I mean, 380 00:23:21.880 --> 00:23:25.079 there's probably some genetic factors too, with his you know, 381 00:23:25.799 --> 00:23:29.079 his father being a violent man, and so anyways to 382 00:23:29.079 --> 00:23:33.839 bring it back culturally, h yeah, this idea that he's 383 00:23:33.960 --> 00:23:38.440 he's mocked by women, and he's abandoned by a woman 384 00:23:39.000 --> 00:23:41.400 who wants to focus on her career, and even when 385 00:23:41.440 --> 00:23:43.079 she does get things back on track, she's still a 386 00:23:43.200 --> 00:23:49.240 very career focused person. He's he's got acne, obviously, very shy, 387 00:23:49.720 --> 00:23:52.799 undermined confidence. So when he grows up and tries to 388 00:23:53.119 --> 00:23:57.079 form relationships with women, he's completely got nothing going from 389 00:23:57.119 --> 00:24:00.480 it at all, and he starts to get defensive as 390 00:24:00.480 --> 00:24:02.640 a way to kind of protect his bruised ego. I mean, 391 00:24:02.720 --> 00:24:06.279 most people don't admit, hey, I'm just a total clueless loser, 392 00:24:06.640 --> 00:24:09.759 Like that's not you don't psychically survive that way. So 393 00:24:09.960 --> 00:24:13.000 he starts to erect you know, defense mechanisms, and so 394 00:24:13.160 --> 00:24:15.640 he he starts to get angry at women and starts 395 00:24:15.680 --> 00:24:19.000 to sort of project onto women womankind as a whole. 396 00:24:19.599 --> 00:24:19.680 Uh. 397 00:24:20.279 --> 00:24:22.240 This also being you know, in the eighties there are 398 00:24:22.279 --> 00:24:26.240 more and more women going into uh technical jobs, going 399 00:24:26.319 --> 00:24:28.880 into schools, and he's having to compete with them, and 400 00:24:29.160 --> 00:24:31.960 uh yeah, apparently he was really quite smart, good at 401 00:24:32.000 --> 00:24:34.319