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Speaker 4: You are now listening to True Murder the most shocking
Speaker 4: killers in true crime history and the authors that have
Speaker 4: written about them. Gasey, Bundy, Dahmer, The Nightstalker DTK. Every
Speaker 4: week another fascinating author talking about the most shocking and
Speaker 4: infamous killers in true crime history. True Murder with Your
Speaker 4: Host journalist and author Dan Zufanski.
Speaker 6: Good Evening rampage a state of anger or agitation resulting
Speaker 6: in violent, reckless and destructive behavior. In nineteen eighty nine,
Speaker 6: Mark Lepine mercilessly executed fourteen female students at Montreal's Equal
Speaker 6: Polytechnique to become Canada's most notorious mass murderer. The following year,
Speaker 6: spree killer Peter John Peter's room from London, Ontario to
Speaker 6: Thunder Bay, leaving a trail of bloodied bodies, broken dreams,
Speaker 6: and stolen vehicles. Both men experienced the same devastating destiny.
Speaker 6: They embarked on homicidal rampages that shook their nation to
Speaker 6: the core. Leegh Meller has gathered more than twenty five
Speaker 6: of Canada's most lethal spree killers into a single work.
Speaker 6: Rampage details their grisly crimes, delves into their twisted psyches,
Speaker 6: and dissects their motivations To answer the question every true
Speaker 6: crime lover yearns to know why. If you think serial
Speaker 6: killers are dangerous, prepare for something even deadlier. The book
Speaker 6: that we're featuring this evening is Rampage, with my special guests,
Speaker 6: journalist and author and publisher Lee Miller. Welcome back to
Speaker 6: the program. Thank you for agreeing to this interview.
Speaker 3: Lee Meller, Thanks them great to be back.
Speaker 6: Let's get right into this. Before we a little bit
Speaker 6: later on, we'll talk about what you've been doing in
Speaker 6: the last little while. I understand you've been in Europe,
Speaker 6: and so maybe we'll be talking about what's latest in
Speaker 6: Serial Killer quarterly. But for now, let's talk about really
Speaker 6: the motivation and the reason why you wrote and the
Speaker 6: focus of Rampage. We talk about multiple murderers. We alluded
Speaker 6: to that in the introduction, So tell us about the
Speaker 6: focus of Rampage, why you wanted to do this project,
Speaker 6: and what is the focus of this project in the
Speaker 6: book Rampage.
Speaker 3: Rampage was a book. It just seemed like a natural
Speaker 3: success or to my first book, Cool North Killers, Canadian
Speaker 3: Serial Murder, and I was thinking of doing it anyways
Speaker 3: as kind of a second book. And when Michael Carroll,
Speaker 3: who was the acquisitions editor from Dunder and suggested it
Speaker 3: to me. I said, he kind of read my mind,
Speaker 3: and so it just seemed to be the next step.
Speaker 3: There isn't really anything on mass murderers in Canada the
Speaker 3: same kind of deal as serial murderers or spree killers, sorry,
Speaker 3: and so I decided it probably wouldn't be interesting to
Speaker 3: do an exhaustive book of mass murders because you just
Speaker 3: have a lot of guys, you know, killing their family members. Unfortunately,
Speaker 3: that's probably the most dominant trend. But what I did
Speaker 3: is I took the twenty five cases that I felt
Speaker 3: were the most interesting or illustrative of certain concepts or
Speaker 3: types of mass murderers and spree killers, and I put
Speaker 3: them all into Rampage. And the end product is there's
Speaker 3: some really diverse criminals in there, and it makes for
Speaker 3: very interesting reads. So yeah, that's pretty much. It so
Speaker 3: a lot simpler than the Genesis of the Cold North
Speaker 3: Killers one. You know, it's just like, okay, well it
Speaker 3: makes sense to do it next.
Speaker 6: Right now, as you do in the book. Let's for audience,
Speaker 6: let's define mass murder and spree killing. And I want
Speaker 6: you to explain really too. If I found it very
Speaker 6: interesting that you said this book serves as a didactic encyclopedia.
Speaker 6: So let's define mass murder and spree killing as opposed
Speaker 6: to serial killing. Tell us what is that inherent difference
Speaker 6: or what you believe is the difference for the purpose
Speaker 6: of a categorization here, And also if you could explain
Speaker 6: what you mean by didatic didactic encyclopedia, sure, I'll get that.
Speaker 3: First question out of the way. Sorry, second question out
Speaker 3: of the way first, because it's a bit I can
Speaker 3: do that quickly. Most encyclopedias, of course, you learn something
Speaker 3: by reading them. That's kind of the point of them.
Speaker 3: So hearing that, I kind of think, yeah, well, I'm
Speaker 3: not sure that was the best word. But bi didactic,
Speaker 3: I mean that you're getting an encyclopedia of these different
Speaker 3: rampage murderers. But at the same time you're learning about
Speaker 3: the concepts associated with rampage murders, so you're not just
Speaker 3: learning facts about the individual killers. It's also like themes,
Speaker 3: whether it's criminology, psychology, social elements that go into or
Speaker 3: you know, criminal justice system matters, which is always a
Speaker 3: huge thing, you know, when they mess up. And so yeah,
Speaker 3: pretty much that's it. Just the idea that you're getting
Speaker 3: sort of like a vertical and horizontal learning in the
Speaker 3: same book. But at the same time, it's not a textbook.
Speaker 3: It's meant to be a good read.
Speaker 6: And now for the second part of the question, what
Speaker 6: as you define in the book? What's the difference between
Speaker 6: mass murders, free killing, serial killing? What is the inherent
Speaker 6: difference is.
Speaker 3: Well, mass murderers kill four or more people in a
Speaker 3: single location. Now there's a little bit of confusion and
Speaker 3: disagreement as to what constitutes a single location. You know,
Speaker 3: is it a classroom or is it an entire school?
Speaker 3: And that's never really been defined, and that's something I
Speaker 3: talk about in the book. I mean, at the end
Speaker 3: of the day, these are all social constructs. But to me,
Speaker 3: if it's like a building, you know, or a series
Speaker 3: of connected buildings, that's a single location. So a mass
Speaker 3: murder kills four more people in a single incident at
Speaker 3: a single location. So, if you're thinking about in the
Speaker 3: US right now, the guy in Oregon recently, I think
Speaker 3: that was the most recent one. I'm losing track now,
Speaker 3: the guy who shut up the school there, he would
Speaker 3: be a mass murderer because he killed four more people,
Speaker 3: and it was in a single location. He didn't move
Speaker 3: to another location. Do that as opposed to a spree killer.
Speaker 3: A spree killer claims two or more victims in two
Speaker 3: or more locations, but it's considered to be the same incident,
Speaker 3: and that the person doesn't really go back to the
Speaker 3: routine of their life once they've committed to it, their
Speaker 3: go and so it's really a mass murder that takes
Speaker 3: place over several spots and sometimes can spend a week
Speaker 3: or anywhere from like a couple of hours to a week.
Speaker 6: And you're comparing these two because just in the last
Speaker 6: description you spoke to, it's in comparison to the serial
Speaker 6: killer with the cooling off period, and so this free
Speaker 6: killer is being compared to because that's the first model
Speaker 6: that people have had in the last thirty years or so,
Speaker 6: was the definition of serial killer. So now we have
Speaker 6: you and others defining the spree and mass murder as
Speaker 6: compared to serial killer, isn't it.
Speaker 3: Yeah, that's something completely different, really, And you hit the
Speaker 3: nail on the head when you said it's about that
Speaker 3: cooling off period. And we can get in debates too if, oh, well,
Speaker 3: what constitutes a cooling off period. At some point you
Speaker 3: have to kind of apply common sense. I would say
Speaker 3: that the thing with the serial murderer, they're now using
Speaker 3: two or more victims rather than three or more, which
Speaker 3: they're using until two thousand and five. But yeah, this
Speaker 3: idea of a cooling off period is really what separates
Speaker 3: them from rampage murders, which include mass murders or spree killers.
Speaker 3: And that the serial killer doesn't want to be caught
Speaker 3: or is careful not to get caught because they seem
Speaker 3: to enjoy doing what they do. They want to be
Speaker 3: at large in order to commit more killings, so it's
Speaker 3: important for them to be able to kill go back
Speaker 3: into the routine of their daily lives. And now that
Speaker 3: doesn't mean that there isn't some sort of still a
Speaker 3: sexual element that's still under the surface there. You know,
Speaker 3: they may have souvenirs or trophies which they use as
Speaker 3: masturbatory aids or to kind of like existentially reminisce about
Speaker 3: these things. They still always have a little fire going there,
Speaker 3: but generally they seem to return back to their lives
Speaker 3: and can do that for days, weeks, months, years, you know,
Speaker 3: as we saw with BTK. I mean I think he
Speaker 3: held off killing for about thirteen years after his last victim.
Speaker 3: So yeah, they have the capacity to do that, whereas
Speaker 3: a rampage murder commits, and once they're committed, they're committed.
Speaker 3: They may be at large for a bit, but everyone
Speaker 3: kind of knows who they are and there'll be a
Speaker 3: man hunt. And yeah, so that's really the main difference,
Speaker 3: if you knows. As much as we can put people
Speaker 3: like that into categories, you.
Speaker 6: Also write that it's characterized also by this profound or
Speaker 6: often or most often or quite often, this profound final event,
Speaker 6: which again is much different than the serial killer motivation.
Speaker 6: It seems.
Speaker 3: Yeah, that's it. Way to think about a rampage killer
Speaker 3: is that it's kind of like a suicide note that's
Speaker 3: externalized to rather than the individual seems to lose all
Speaker 3: hope for a normal life, and rather than going quietly,
Speaker 3: they decide to go out with a bang rather than
Speaker 3: a whimper, as the saying goes, and so they they
Speaker 3: take people with them, and a lot of the times
Speaker 3: they will they will leave letters. Especially with these new
Speaker 3: killers that we're seeing. We're seeing such so many mass
Speaker 3: murders in the States right now, and it seems like
Speaker 3: all of them are doing like these video blogs or
Speaker 3: sending out letters like it's just commonplace now. It's it's
Speaker 3: almost like they want to broadcast I existed and I'm
Speaker 3: pissed off that I was denied a good life and
Speaker 3: that's become standard. But we don't see that so much
Speaker 3: in Canada.
Speaker 6: Yet again we've got an extreme example with Luca Magnata.
Speaker 6: So I think when if you've got Mark Twitchell and
Speaker 6: you've got I don't know a few other examples, I
Speaker 6: think everybody, regardless of whether you're where you're living. I
Speaker 6: mean America is just the more glaring example, I think.
Speaker 6: But I think there's a lot of people in this
Speaker 6: what they were calling malignant narcissism, where everybody wants a
Speaker 6: little piece of that fifteen minutes of fame. It's symptomatic
Speaker 6: of a lot of people, and I think it's I
Speaker 6: think it's pretty consistent in terms of these new killers
Speaker 6: as well. But let's when we're speaking about a school
Speaker 6: killing mass murder, let's talk about this incredible example that
Speaker 6: we spoke to and I spoke to in the introduction
Speaker 6: about Mark Leapene and the Equal Polytechnique, where fourteen women
Speaker 6: were killed, ten women were wounded and four men were
Speaker 6: wounded as well. And this was December sixth, nineteen eighty nine.
Speaker 6: And so rather than the way you have it in
Speaker 6: the book where we talk about the crime and then
Speaker 6: you talk about and you've done an incredible job and
Speaker 6: amassing quite a background on each one of these cases.
Speaker 6: It's incredible the research you've put into this and the
Speaker 6: access and the information that you've dug up to really
Speaker 6: tell the story and really give a good character analysis
Speaker 6: of these killers. It's incredible. So let's talk about Mark Lapine.
Speaker 6: He doesn't start off as Mark Lapine. He changes his
Speaker 6: name at thirteen years of age. So let's talk about
Speaker 6: his background, which is so important to tell the story
Speaker 6: of this Mark Lapine and this massacre at e Cole
Speaker 6: Pola Technique.
Speaker 3: Yeah. I really wanted to get into every background element
Speaker 3: with him because typically when you see the story portrayed
Speaker 3: that it's this woman hater, he's he's just a misogynist.
Speaker 3: It's a it's a political thing, and of course there're
Speaker 3: you know, that is a part of it, but there's
Speaker 3: this whole iceberg under the water of of of trauma
Speaker 3: and and seeming like personality disturbances that sort of underlies that.
Speaker 3: So I really wanted to dig into that. Lapine's father
Speaker 3: was an abusive man. I believe he was of Algerian background,
Speaker 3: and uh this uh, this man Rashid Garbi because Lapine's
Speaker 3: h name was Gamil rodrigue LEAs Garby Gamil actually meaning
Speaker 3: handsome in Arabic, and.
Speaker 6: He was.
Speaker 3: His His mother and father had a very kind of
Speaker 3: unstable marriage French Canadian mother and and Mark was kind
Speaker 3: of neglected as a child. His mother was working so
Speaker 3: hard under the sort of draconian father figure that you know,
Speaker 3: she'd be typing things out all day and he would
Speaker 3: he would beat her when she made a mistake, and
Speaker 3: often they would go out at night. They would leave
Speaker 3: Gamil later to be Mark all alone in his crib,
Speaker 3: and they would his father as he got older. His
Speaker 3: father actually beat him once for singing. He woke his
Speaker 3: dad up by singing. You know, you think that'd be
Speaker 3: a nice thing to hear your son singing happy, but
Speaker 3: not in this case. And this so they kind of
Speaker 3: lived under this tyrannical patriarch figure for a long time
Speaker 3: and finally he went too far. And after that, I'd
Speaker 3: believe It was shortly after the incident where Gamill was
Speaker 3: beat for crying by his father that his mother said,
Speaker 3: you know, that's it. And once she decided that she
Speaker 3: was going to leave Rashid, he just completely cut off
Speaker 3: all financial support whatsoever. So it left the Gamill and
Speaker 3: his sister Nadia, and mother Monique right at the you
Speaker 3: know where they needed social assistance and they were struggling
Speaker 3: to get by. This had the unfortunate effect of where
Speaker 3: the children were already kind of isolated and neglected by
Speaker 3: their mother, of deepening that because the mother was forced
Speaker 3: to go in and work extremely long hours to try
Speaker 3: and get by, and so they're already a lot of
Speaker 3: damage happening there, and then the one person they can
Speaker 3: bond with, their mother is suddenly kind of out of
Speaker 3: the picture. So Monique sent Gamill and Nadia to live
Speaker 3: with some caregivers throughout the week, and apparently they didn't
Speaker 3: adjust well to that. They always wanted to see their mom,
Speaker 3: but they couldn't do so. And at this point Gamil
Speaker 3: begins to act out. He took a he'd gone on
Speaker 3: the camping trip, I believe with the caregivers, and he
Speaker 3: took like a propane tank and I think he attempted
Speaker 3: to blow it up or something like that. But the
Speaker 3: point was he was doing things to get attention. And
Speaker 3: so if you kind of weave all this together, you
Speaker 3: can start to see like where this really deep pathology
Speaker 3: of a murderer comes from. It's not just political. It
Speaker 3: goes all the way back to childhood. And when he's
Speaker 3: about twelve, his mother's finally able to take him back,
Speaker 3: but now he's showing even more profound signs of disturbance.
Speaker 3: He digs a grave for his sister. He doesn't like
Speaker 3: his sister. It seems like she's always taunting him and
Speaker 3: digging at him, and this really undermines his self esteem,
Speaker 3: especially as he's going into puberty. And he actually digs
Speaker 3: a grave for his sister in the backyard and his
Speaker 3: mother atches them doing this and say, what are you doing?
Speaker 3: You like, this is your sister, you know, fill the
Speaker 3: hole and he's just kind of the never really explains it,
Speaker 3: he but he just fills the hole back in. And
Speaker 3: at some point Monique's cat goes missing and she says,
Speaker 3: you know, where's the cat going? And Nadia Gamil's sister says, well,
Speaker 3: I saw him. I saw him strangle it with a
Speaker 3: rope and she Monique asks him about he says, and
Speaker 3: I didn't do that, but she never ever sees the
Speaker 3: cat again. So this is as he's getting into puberty,
Speaker 3: also being called Arab taunted for his you know, the
Speaker 3: half Arabic I guess, mixed race background at school, and
Speaker 3: so he changes his name to Mark Lapine when he's
Speaker 3: thirteen years old. But you know, right there, thirteen years
Speaker 3: of and you know, any of those things in isolation
Speaker 3: or you know, a couple of them, you will see
Speaker 3: that in the lives of many people. But there's a
Speaker 3: lot of real subtle stuff adding up there to a
Speaker 3: really maladjusted young man.
Speaker 6: Now, let's while we're on still the warp psychology that
Speaker 6: this person is enduring. Here, he hates his father. It
Speaker 6: ends up he really hates his father, and his father
Speaker 6: has this very interesting life that's discovered by his by
Speaker 6: Mark's mother, in that he has two women by the
Speaker 6: same name and is leaving this completely double life. And
Speaker 6: like you say, the mother is a French Canadian not
Speaker 6: of Arab or Algerian descent, and his sister Nadia is
Speaker 6: again ruthless in basically haunting him and his mother as
Speaker 6: you say, because of the long work hours and a
Speaker 6: combination of other things. He's really being neglected and doesn't
Speaker 6: have any positive role models in terms of women. He has,
Speaker 6: as you write in the book, no real success in dating.
Speaker 6: He's incredibly shy, has acne. So we've got all those things.
Speaker 6: And he talks about earlier about this seven years of
Speaker 6: no Joy, And I maybe just jumping ahead a little bit,
Speaker 6: but where is it because you don't really point it out,
Speaker 6: but is there some connection with the mother refusing because
Speaker 6: he does go back with his father briefly, you say
Speaker 6: in the book, so that there is some confusion in
Speaker 6: terms of his loyalty to his parents. But where does
Speaker 6: this feminism, this idea of feminism come from, or this
Speaker 6: idea that again either some traditional idea of what women
Speaker 6: role is in a marriage or in the home. Does
Speaker 6: Where does he get these earlier ideas that again will
Speaker 6: seem very important later in this story.
Speaker 3: Well, I mean he never actually sits down and tells
Speaker 3: us or he really has much insight into what is
Speaker 3: going on with him. Maybe he didn't know him. Felt
Speaker 3: if we can do a little maybe psycho ount analysis
Speaker 3: or something like that, I think that the idea that
Speaker 3: his mother was always not there for him, like she
Speaker 3: was either going out with the father and leaving him
Speaker 3: in his crib. Mother admitted that she couldn't go in
Speaker 3: to comfort him while he was crying because of her
Speaker 3: controlling husband, So at some point he just stopped crying
Speaker 3: as a child. So this goes really quite deep. And
Speaker 3: then abandoning them as kids to try and get by,
Speaker 3: And now she's doing that in the contexts of a
Speaker 3: single mother trying to make it in the world, and
Speaker 3: she's devoting all of her time to work. Now, I
Speaker 3: think it's possible here that marcle Pene begins to see
Speaker 3: women in the workforce, perhaps as being tantamount to him
Speaker 3: being emotionally neglected and being alone. I think that's very
Speaker 3: possible there too. Also getting ribbed all the time by
Speaker 3: his sister, he must have really undermined his self. Esteemed
Speaker 3: like there was a point where he was having his
Speaker 3: first kiss and his sister saw him and made fun
Speaker 3: of him, and he I don't think he ever kissed
Speaker 3: anyone again that we know of. He was very, very
Speaker 3: sensitive to rejection, which he would be if if he
Speaker 3: grew up in those kind of conditions, And I mean,
Speaker 3: there's probably some genetic factors too, with his you know,
Speaker 3: his father being a violent man, and so anyways to
Speaker 3: bring it back culturally, h yeah, this idea that he's
Speaker 3: he's mocked by women, and he's abandoned by a woman
Speaker 3: who wants to focus on her career, and even when
Speaker 3: she does get things back on track, she's still a
Speaker 3: very career focused person. He's he's got acne, obviously, very shy,
Speaker 3: undermined confidence. So when he grows up and tries to
Speaker 3: form relationships with women, he's completely got nothing going from
Speaker 3: it at all, and he starts to get defensive as
Speaker 3: a way to kind of protect his bruised ego. I mean,
Speaker 3: most people don't admit, hey, I'm just a total clueless loser,
Speaker 3: Like that's not you don't psychically survive that way. So
Speaker 3: he starts to erect you know, defense mechanisms, and so
Speaker 3: he he starts to get angry at women and starts
Speaker 3: to sort of project onto women womankind as a whole.
Speaker 6: Uh.
Speaker 3: This also being you know, in the eighties there are
Speaker 3: more and more women going into uh technical jobs, going
Speaker 3: into schools, and he's having to compete with them, and
Speaker 3: uh yeah, apparently he was really quite smart, good at
Speaker 3: his job, but he was always sabotaged by his emotional
Speaker 3: problems when he when he was doing his schooling, Like
Speaker 3: he's constantly enrolling in secondary uh post secondary schools and
Speaker 3: and dropping out even though his grades are good. He
Speaker 3: he's very subject to these sort of crashes, and he
Speaker 3: he probably saw a lot of people who are less
Speaker 3: gifted than him doing well. And and because of the
Speaker 3: way that he's blaming women for so much of what's
Speaker 3: going on in his life, he probably focuses on the
Speaker 3: the females in that environment. And so this all culminates
Speaker 3: in UH him essentially being twenty five and completely alone
Speaker 3: in this apartment and just watching UH action movies and
Speaker 3: horror movies all day, and he comes up with this
Speaker 3: plan that UH he applied to get into the Nicole
Speaker 3: Polytechnique in in Montreal, and they rejected them, as they
Speaker 3: would because his grades are completely erratic and and as
Speaker 3: really just indicators of what what his emotional life was like.
Speaker 3: And so he's rejected, and he sees all these women
Speaker 3: getting into the engineering program, and somehow he forms all
Speaker 3: these narratives together, these separate threads, and UH turns it
Speaker 3: into uh, he's going to kill women, you know, really
Speaker 3: cause he hates them and and uh, he feels rejected
Speaker 3: by them. He doesn't understand them, he feels that they're
Speaker 3: at the bane of his life. But I think, probably
Speaker 3: to cover up how much of it is about him
Speaker 3: being inadequate, he sort of frames it in this pseudo
Speaker 3: political way that he's a radical making a stand against feminism.
Speaker 3: And they probably believe that somewhat himself. You know, he
Speaker 3: probably convinced himself with that, but it wasn't really about that,
Speaker 3: in my opinion. It was just about him being rejected
Speaker 3: by women, you know. Really in the later years, mostly
Speaker 3: because of his own doing.
Speaker 6: We also talk about his hatred and his growing hatred
Speaker 6: for women, but also just to before we set up
Speaker 6: this tragic event, this day, it's incredible day that he
Speaker 6: unleashes all of this anger and animosity towards women, especially
Speaker 6: in some men. You describe very very well, eloquently, how
Speaker 6: isolated this guy isolates himself. Basically this eight y ten room,
Speaker 6: you said, he was just playing video games and sitting
Speaker 6: there with his computer. But his friends try to get
Speaker 6: him out, even for social events, and yet he still
Speaker 6: stayed primarily in all the time in this little room, didn't.
Speaker 3: He Yeah, And I think you know that's because by
Speaker 3: this point he's already so damaged. You know, he is
Speaker 3: a fully formed adult in a lot of ways, and
Speaker 3: he's fully formed damaged, and he knows that he's not
Speaker 3: gonna fit He doesn't know what to say to fit in.
Speaker 3: He doesn't know if girls are probably making fun of
Speaker 3: him or being sincere, doesn't know if they're interested in
Speaker 3: them or not. And this probably just leads him to
Speaker 3: be incredibly angry and frustrated and to look at himself
Speaker 3: every time he goes out and fails in these social situations.
Speaker 3: He's kind of confronted with the reality of who he is.
Speaker 3: So for someone like this, it's much easier for them
Speaker 3: to sort of protect their inflated ego by not going out,
Speaker 3: by just denying it all. And and so that's why
Speaker 3: I wouldn't go out with his friends, because he knew
Speaker 3: that It wasn't about him not being able to meet
Speaker 3: women or to you know, meet people who might potentially
Speaker 3: be as friends. It was his ability to know what
Speaker 3: to do to to get to the next next stage
Speaker 3: with them and to and to keep them. And he
Speaker 3: just didn't have that equipment in place, So to me,
Speaker 3: that's why he's he's staying in and then he can
Speaker 3: lose himself in a fantasy world of violent movies ruled
Speaker 3: by these you know, sort of alpha male characters, uh,
Speaker 3: which you know, he might identify with and start weaving
Speaker 3: a narrative to to justify his existence based on that.
Speaker 3: And the next thing you know, you've got this guy
Speaker 3: who's taking a two twenty three semi autic semi automatic
Speaker 3: UH machine gun and shooting up a U A polytechnic.
Speaker 6: Well, let's talk about December sixth, nineteen eighty nine. He's
Speaker 6: at the office of the registrar and he again, he
Speaker 6: has a gun, a two twenty three caliber semi automatic
Speaker 6: rifle that he has bought legally and amazingly, he's bought
Speaker 6: this for hunting small game. And he's got his rifle
Speaker 6: hidden in the garbage bay and it's with him and
Speaker 6: no one seems to take great notice of him at all. Basically,
Speaker 6: so set the scene for us. What happens. He comes in,
Speaker 6: he's at the register's office, and he leaves and he
Speaker 6: goes to the second floor engineering class. There's sixty nine
Speaker 6: students total, so take it from there. You have everything
Speaker 6: from exactly what he says, So tell us what happens.
Speaker 3: Well, essentially, at some point, he just walks into a classroom.
Speaker 3: I'm just looking for which classes is here, it doesn't
Speaker 3: really matter. He walks into a classroom of engineering students
Speaker 3: and the professor's just sort of like in the middle
Speaker 3: of the lecture, and they just kind of they don't
Speaker 3: know who's in the class, so they think it's just
Speaker 3: this guy walking in late. And he walks in and
Speaker 3: he tries to get everyone's attention, and at first they
Speaker 3: think it's a joke until he pulls out the gun
Speaker 3: and suddenly he has exactly what he wants. He has
Speaker 3: his little moment in the spotlight for for his time,
Speaker 3: his big dramatic ending, and he holds everyone at gunpoint.
Speaker 3: He orders all the male students out of the classroom
Speaker 3: until just the female students are remaining, and he asks
Speaker 3: them to back up against the wall, which they do.
Speaker 3: He's got a machine gun out, so they're pretty intimidated.
Speaker 3: Everyone's scared, and he starts saying things like you're all feminists.
Speaker 3: I hate feminists. One of the girls tries to reason
Speaker 3: with him to say I'm not a feminist, you know,
Speaker 3: I'm just a female student. But he doesn't want to listen.
Speaker 3: He's not in the mood for discussion or to debate
Speaker 3: the finer points. It's really just about him now externalizing
Speaker 3: all of his anger on people. So the minute she
Speaker 3: starts to speak, unloads with the machine gun and then
Speaker 3: all the women fall down, most of them killed, many
Speaker 3: severely injured. And then he leaves that classroom and he
Speaker 3: just starts to go down the hallways from room to room,
Speaker 3: shooting at students, mostly females, but as you did, mention,
Speaker 3: he hit a l a lot of males too, And
Speaker 3: this culminates in the total of of fourteen dead and
Speaker 3: fourteen wounded.
Speaker 5: Uh.
Speaker 3: The final victim he actually kills with a knife. I
Speaker 3: believe he hit her first with some of bullets, and
Speaker 3: as she lay dying, UH he climbed up onto this
Speaker 3: uh dais and pulled out a knife and just plunged
Speaker 3: it through her chest. And someone was there uh to
Speaker 3: observe it, and apparently his last words were as shit,
Speaker 3: at which point he put uh the gun in his
Speaker 3: own mouth and killed himself.
Speaker 6: And it was interesting too, even the aftermath of that
Speaker 6: is that one of the students, which was a male,
Speaker 6: who was ushered out of the room. And again at
Speaker 6: first they separated the men from the women, and then
Speaker 6: he said, okay, you guys leave, you guys, get out
Speaker 6: of this room. So he felt so guilty that he
Speaker 6: committed suicide. So tell us again, and this is Canada
Speaker 6: and not the United States, So tell us the difference
Speaker 6: at that time in history nineteen eighty nine. What the
Speaker 6: aftermath was of this murder? What did it ignite?
Speaker 3: Well, it has December sixth now is a national memorial
Speaker 3: Day for these women. It's like a women's rights day,
Speaker 3: and to commemorate this. So if Lapine went out to
Speaker 3: destroy feminism, he completely failed. Actually had the opposite result,
Speaker 3: and as a result, there's more female engineering students now,
Speaker 3: so then there was back in nineteen eighty nine. Ever
Speaker 3: war he was waging, or thought he was kicking off.
Speaker 3: It didn't work. But it's it's interesting to me to
Speaker 3: see he seems to have been sort of the first
Speaker 3: of these sort of misogynists, isolated killers, and now they're
Speaker 3: popping up over the past, you know, say, five six years.
Speaker 3: They seem to be popping up all over the place.
Speaker 3: I mean we have we have uh Elliott, Roger and
Speaker 3: Choe and this guy Mercer or something whatever his name
Speaker 3: was l recently in Oregon, and they're all, you know, saying,
Speaker 3: I hate women, I'm lonely, I can't you know, and
Speaker 3: they're using different language, but they're all essentially saying that
Speaker 3: the same thing. It's about social isolation. And so yeah,
Speaker 3: specifically it was U. There's this Memorial Day on and
Speaker 3: Women's Rights Day on December sixth, which is soon approaching,
Speaker 3: and that was pretty much the legacy of that. But
Speaker 3: as you said, there is uh someone who who call
Speaker 3: themselves I'm trying to think now, wasn't there there was
Speaker 3: a couple too that committed suicide. Am I remembering that correctly?
Speaker 6: I can't say for sure. I know that it was
Speaker 6: just surprising for me to see that the one man
Speaker 6: had committed suicide, so I know that part of it.
Speaker 3: Yeah, I'm trying to think if it if it was
Speaker 3: his parents. Yeah, anyways, I'll find that. But yeah, that
Speaker 3: was that's pretty much the culmination of you know, his
Speaker 3: big statement was reverse effect.
Speaker 6: What about because there's always the talk in the US
Speaker 6: and Canada about the differences in gun control legislation. Was
Speaker 6: there any move on gun legislation? As I mentioned, he
Speaker 6: had legally obtained this gun, was legal for other people
Speaker 6: to have a gun like this, a semi automatic rifle.
Speaker 6: You said it. You know, it was interesting that swat
Speaker 6: teams would use this type of rifle as well. So, uh,
Speaker 6: tell us about any changes at all or any discussion
Speaker 6: about gun control legislation as a result of this incredible crime.
Speaker 3: Ok, Okay, Well, uh, but I haven't looked it up,
Speaker 3: just as you were talking there, and it was. Yeah,
Speaker 3: within a year of the young man's suicide, his parents
Speaker 3: killed themselves. So if you count those uh oh, and
Speaker 3: and also uh l Lapine's own sister I became a
Speaker 3: heroin addict uh because of the follow out of of
Speaker 3: the crimes, and and died in nineteen ninety six, So
Speaker 3: if you count those as sort of like victims on
Speaker 3: the periphery, then you know, it's like eighteen. Well and
Speaker 3: if you include his own life, you know, he's he's
Speaker 3: killed almost twenty people as a result of his actions.
Speaker 3: So yeah, anyways about the the legislation I that uh
Speaker 3: resulted from it, there is uh, yeah, I think that
Speaker 3: if I remember correctly, they were they were doing a
Speaker 3: push to an act gun control and stuff on semi automatics.
Speaker 3: But then I heard recently that you can still actually
Speaker 3: get that gun in Canada. So I don't know if
Speaker 3: actually if it.
Speaker 6: Worked mm hmm, but it does seem to yeah, I
Speaker 6: mean they have they not celebrate, but they recognize the
Speaker 6: anniversary of this killing in Canada, and it does again
Speaker 6: it's again, we don't want I didn't want to ask
Speaker 6: you a hard question on the real impact in terms
Speaker 6: of that discussion, but there seemed to be, uh, this
Speaker 6: was a I don't know, firestone, if it's just the
Speaker 6: right term, touchstone, pardon me of of of that discussion
Speaker 6: anyway about not only misogyny and and but also of
Speaker 6: gun control itself and the availabil and so at least
Speaker 6: it was that discussion.
Speaker 3: Let's talk about another for gun control.
Speaker 6: There you go, there you go, thank you. Let's talk
Speaker 6: about another incredible case that again is keeping in line
Speaker 6: with the recent we just had a police officer, the
Speaker 6: police officers under fire and also under criticism. Let's talk
Speaker 6: about someone that had a deep, deep hatred for police,
Speaker 6: and that's James Roscoe and ends up an incredible, unprecedented
Speaker 6: murder of RCMP police officers in Canada. This is March second,
Speaker 6: two thousand and five. Again, let's talk about the incredible
Speaker 6: background that you've uncovered and put in this in this
Speaker 6: book rampage about the incredible life early life of James Roscoe.
Speaker 3: Okay, well, the Roscoe thing actually starts kind of innocuously.
Speaker 3: That's when he buys a truck from Kent wood Ford
Speaker 3: Sales of Edmonton, and it's a white two thousand and
Speaker 3: five Ford f three point fifty and he gets it
Speaker 3: on credit. And when they check into his history after
Speaker 3: the fact, they realize that he's got bad credit, that
Speaker 3: he has a criminal history, and so they send out
Speaker 3: bailiffs to repossess the truck and they go out to
Speaker 3: his place in Mayor Thorpe, Alberta. Now his place is
Speaker 3: basically like a compound surrounded by chainlink fences, and they
Speaker 3: are trying to get in there and he and he
Speaker 3: is just telling them to fuck off and such, and
Speaker 3: he's got these really intimidating dogs kind of roaming around. They've,
Speaker 3: i think they've heard some rumors about him being kind
Speaker 3: of a dangerous character. So they're a bit where and
Speaker 3: they they come to repossess this truck and he sort
Speaker 3: of just tells him to get lost, and then he
Speaker 3: gets in. He gets in the vehicle and drives off.
Speaker 3: And so that they Bailiff's contact the RCMP and they
Speaker 3: now have like a I guess, a probable cause to
Speaker 3: to enter the compound. And when they go in, they
Speaker 3: find a chop shop. Basically, Roscoe has been taking these
Speaker 3: stolen cars and he's he's been selling them out of there.
Speaker 3: And they also find that he's got a huge cannabis
Speaker 3: growing operation going on there. So he immediately becomes a
Speaker 3: wanted man and he's gone, he's not there anymore. So
Speaker 3: they decide, well, we're going to post some RCMP officers
Speaker 3: here to watch the place while he's gone, and I
Speaker 3: guess they're collecting evidence and such, maybe seeing if he
Speaker 3: comes back. Well, he does come back. Uh, he sneaks
Speaker 3: back later that night and he has a firearm and
Speaker 3: he he creeps in and he hides in the back
Speaker 3: of this little hut and he waits, uh until the officers. Uh,
Speaker 3: there's very few of them on patrol. They didn't seem
Speaker 3: to know completely the kind of psychology that were they
Speaker 3: were dealing with at the time, at least their superiors
Speaker 3: didn't and uh when they entered this hut, he just
Speaker 3: unloads on them and uh he kills four of them
Speaker 3: uh if and there's a big standoff kind of shoot
Speaker 3: out with police, UH long stalemate periods and h e
Speaker 3: ev Eventually Roscoe uh kills himself uh but takes these
Speaker 3: four RCMP officers with him and it's one of the
Speaker 3: the worst massacres of of law enforcement in Canadian history.
Speaker 3: And the kind of interest part for me about this
Speaker 3: story is that the fall out of it is that
Speaker 3: they start to think about, well, did we calculate the
Speaker 3: risk properly in this situation? Did we really know who
Speaker 3: we were dealing with? And so they Matt Logan, who
Speaker 3: is an RCMP, one of their main behavioral behavioral cops,
Speaker 3: he goes and he does sort of like an autopsy
Speaker 3: on this on the situation. He starts to dig into
Speaker 3: the background of James Roscoe and he finds that this
Speaker 3: guy has a huge history of versatile criminal activities. He's
Speaker 3: paranoid against the police, he's he's done aggravated assault, several
Speaker 3: homosexual rapes, and at this point Matt Logan starts to
Speaker 3: realize that this guy, James Roscoe, was a psychopath and
Speaker 3: you should have taken a lot more seriously. And so
Speaker 3: the hope is that next time they'll be able to
Speaker 3: spot someone like this, But am I confident that they will?
Speaker 3: Probably not beforehand. But I mean that's the Mayrthorpe Rosco
Speaker 3: thing in a nutshell there.
Speaker 6: Well, you talk about him being a psychopath, and you
Speaker 6: single him out as hitting all of the checkpoints for
Speaker 6: psychopath as opposed to a lot of the other killers
Speaker 6: in your book, and you describe them in great detail
Speaker 6: and classify them accordingly. When you talked about Roscoe, though,
Speaker 6: you did talk about his incredibly disturbed background, his early
Speaker 6: life with his father who at some point becomes severely
Speaker 6: mentally ill and starts talking about the apocalypse and doomsday
Speaker 6: and is embarrassing. So tell us a little bit about
Speaker 6: this earliest, because if we talk about psychopath, we look
Speaker 6: for the person that is just clearly not mentally ill.
Speaker 6: But in this mix, this confluence, we do have this
Speaker 6: mentally ill father and this bizarre upbringing as well, where
Speaker 6: not only is he spoiled and not only is he
Speaker 6: preferred or a preferential treatment, but also he has this
Speaker 6: bizarre upbringing.
Speaker 3: Yeah, his mother kind of molly coddles him, and his
Speaker 3: father is a religious fanatic. There is always this sort
Speaker 3: of tension where his mother, Stephanie, we claim.
Speaker 6: That the father.
Speaker 3: Abused abused her, her husband abused her. This was Brosco's father,
Speaker 3: and he said that he didn't, So there was a
Speaker 3: lot of tension in the household about this. At the
Speaker 3: same time, the mother's molly calling him and the father's
Speaker 3: coming across with this religious fanaticism. So it's just not
Speaker 3: a good pot for anyone. But I mean, I think
Speaker 3: where the psychicopathy thing becomes interesting is I mean, he's from,
Speaker 3: you know, a family where he has quite a few
Speaker 3: brothers and they all seem to grow up to be okay,
Speaker 3: but from the youngest age he's showing signs of just
Speaker 3: being completely manipulative, self entitled. And they could put that
Speaker 3: down to the molly codling. Apparently he was just like
Speaker 3: the most adorable little baby and everyone loved him. But
Speaker 3: this meant that he could get away with anything, you know,
Speaker 3: especially in the eyes of his mother. So he's in
Speaker 3: he's grown up, and he's grown up in certainly not
Speaker 3: a healthy situation, but neither are his other siblings. So
Speaker 3: you have to wonder like, well, what is it specifically
Speaker 3: about this individual? And the explanation seems to be that
Speaker 3: you know that it could be the psycho, which is
Speaker 3: actually you know, the genetic fluke. There's no evidence really
Speaker 3: that this religiosity or this abuse necessarily shapes his crimes.
Speaker 3: We don't see echoes of that in his crimes as
Speaker 3: specifically as we do in the case like Lupine, but
Speaker 3: it may certainly have had I think more the him
Speaker 3: being molly coddled probably gave him more of like a
Speaker 3: sense of entitlement and you know that I don't have
Speaker 3: to pay my way in this world, I don't have
Speaker 3: to listen to any authority figures. I'm special, and you know,
Speaker 3: this could have paved the way for him basically making
Speaker 3: his living as a criminal.
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Speaker 5: and conditions to what secret.
Speaker 3: Deals, manipulating the justice system and always placing himself in
Speaker 3: opposition to authorities. At the same time, Now that I'm
Speaker 3: saying that if his father was this religious fanatic who
Speaker 3: he could not respect and who was always trying to
Speaker 3: impose his views on the children, I mean perhaps it was.
Speaker 3: The reaction to authority is something that goes back that
Speaker 3: far as well to not respecting the authority of your
Speaker 3: of your father, and not really having any authority from
Speaker 3: the mother. So that's pretty much robed those Yeah.
Speaker 6: Sorry, I agree with you in that respect, in terms
Speaker 6: of she was always defending him when he was accused
Speaker 6: of sexual abuse of the handyman, for example, she denied
Speaker 6: that he would be able will be capable of anything
Speaker 6: like that. He didn't do any chores, and then he
Speaker 6: dealt drugs and he sold moonshine, and he just had
Speaker 6: this disregard for authority. Like you say, where is it
Speaker 6: that he developed specifically this hatred for the RCMP. Why
Speaker 6: is there this hatred for the RCMP before this, Where
Speaker 6: does this come from?
Speaker 3: Well, he was living a criminal lifestyle and he was
Speaker 3: always doing things wrong, you know, and so every time
Speaker 3: if you do things wrong long enough, you know, of
Speaker 3: course you're going to run a file of the police.
Speaker 3: But whereas most people would just see it, it's like, well,
Speaker 3: they're just doing their job, and you know, I'm doing
Speaker 3: illegal things and their job to stop me from doing
Speaker 3: illegal things. He becomes almost like kind of paranoid about
Speaker 3: it and starts thinking that they're out specifically to get them.
Speaker 6: But there is.
Speaker 3: When he was fourteen years old, he he was caught
Speaker 3: by his uh father with UH marijuana, and UH his dad,
Speaker 3: rather than the sort of you know, confas getting it
Speaker 3: tongue off, actually contacts the RCMP and UH and gets
Speaker 3: him in trouble for it. And this is sort of
Speaker 3: like the initial thing that that kicks off with this
Speaker 3: and UH. Maybe at this point he sees the RCMP
Speaker 3: and his father is kind of being like one and
Speaker 3: the same thing, uh in that you know, the people
Speaker 3: with these moral standards that are trying to crush his
Speaker 3: his personal freedom and you know, these figures he doesn't respect,
Speaker 3: and I and A and it the so yeah, the
Speaker 3: RCMP is first actually associated with his father when it
Speaker 3: comes into his life, and this is probably the event
Speaker 3: that begins the ball rolling. But he by as I said,
Speaker 3: he had a a history of run ins with the
Speaker 3: RCMP cause he was always doing things that were illegal.
Speaker 6: Did he have some specific officers that he had in mind?
Speaker 6: Did he have some list of potential victims?
Speaker 3: Yeah, he did. He had He had lists of of
Speaker 3: officers that I think that was something that they found
Speaker 3: later when they were going through his trailer. They they
Speaker 3: found stuff like articles on the Columbine High School shooters,
Speaker 3: which is really kind of odd if you think about
Speaker 3: You've got this this grown man who seems to be
Speaker 3: looking towards teenagers who committed a high school massacre before him.
Speaker 3: They found a stash of of pornography. I think it
Speaker 3: was kind of like sadom masochistic homosexual stuff. They found
Speaker 3: a photograph of James Roscoe actually giving alcohol the two
Speaker 3: adolescent males and sexually assaulting them. So they found once
Speaker 3: they're actually able to go into this individual's world because
Speaker 3: he had a lot of criminal charges, but I think
Speaker 3: only one time was he really convicted of something serious,
Speaker 3: and so it was when they were able to go
Speaker 3: into his personal space, after the fact that they really
Speaker 3: realized the extent to which this person had, you know,
Speaker 3: plans to take out the police officers and and this
Speaker 3: sort of idealization idolization of past mass murderers, and that
Speaker 3: was when it all kind of clicked, but it was
Speaker 3: it was too late at that point.
Speaker 6: When people asked, or reporters asked, or police to asked
Speaker 6: his father, what how did his father describe his son
Speaker 6: James Roskill.
Speaker 2: No.
Speaker 3: I said he was like a devil basically, you know,
Speaker 3: using the same religious terminology that you know, he wasn't
Speaker 3: surprised that this happened, really and you know that he
Speaker 3: never that James Roscoe wasn't really ever a good one.
Speaker 3: And you know, normally we might say, well, you know,
Speaker 3: maybe there's evidence that the father had something to do
Speaker 3: with it, like what kind of messages that send to
Speaker 3: your kid that you know, you're you're a devil. But
Speaker 3: I think that perhaps he was seeing him for what
Speaker 3: he was. You know, there really are those people that
Speaker 3: are just they're just born bad. And I think that's
Speaker 3: the father's way of expressing that.
Speaker 6: Now we talked about entitled in this story and we
Speaker 6: again there's a twenty five stories in here. We can't
Speaker 6: go into all of them, but I think these are
Speaker 6: we'll be able to get to three or four, which
Speaker 6: are a great example of what the book encompasses and
Speaker 6: is able to achieve in terms of a cross section
Speaker 6: of different types of killers. And then again this very
Speaker 6: illustrative example of why they're in this classification and why
Speaker 6: they're different from each other. And it's, you know, an
Speaker 6: amazing analysis of maybe why they came to be able
Speaker 6: to do some of these incredible crimes. We talk about entitlement.
Speaker 6: We again we talk about somebody that's got a little
Speaker 6: bit of a name in Canada, Alexander Keith, a famous
Speaker 6: brewery from the East Coast, and the not so ambitious
Speaker 6: and motivated Alexander Sandy Keith junior. So you talk about
Speaker 6: him being a con man and an opportunist politically and
Speaker 6: business wise. So tell us a little bit about Alexander Keith,
Speaker 6: first the father and what sort of the family had achieved,
Speaker 6: and then Sandy Keith and what he tried to achieve.
Speaker 3: Okay, so Sandy Keith was actually you know, Sandy being
Speaker 3: sure for Alexander Keith Junior he's actually the nephew of
Speaker 3: Alexander Keith, who was a famous Yeah that's okay, I
Speaker 3: do that all the time too, the but yeah, he was.
Speaker 3: You would think it's his son. That's actually not his nephew.
Speaker 3: And Alexander Keith, you know, for anyone outside of Canada,
Speaker 3: uh is one of sort of the most prominent and
Speaker 3: and successful Canadian brewers, uh especially you know, in in
Speaker 3: the nineteenth century. And he comes over from Scotland and
Speaker 3: he sets up in Halifax and he starts to brew
Speaker 3: this uh Ia out there, and so he's he's kind
Speaker 3: of like a big man about town in Halifax. He's
Speaker 3: kind of the most powerful brewer, extremely wealthy. And meanwhile
Speaker 3: he has this nephew, Sandy Keith, who comes over from
Speaker 3: Scotland sometime after and uh Sandy Keith just really tries
Speaker 3: to leech off his uncle's fortune. His his own father
Speaker 3: sets up a business which is in competition with his uncle,
Speaker 3: and he actually turns his back on his own father
Speaker 3: and goes over and sort of ingratiates himself from his uncle,
Speaker 3: becomes a bit of a a sick ephant and uh
Speaker 3: So right there you're seeing that he's just willing to take.
Speaker 3: He doesn't really have much loyalty. He's just going where
Speaker 3: the opportunity is. And once he's actually in the good
Speaker 3: books with Alexander Keith, he uses it to start sort
Speaker 3: of throw his weight around town in Halifax, and there's
Speaker 3: times where he actually he actually impersonates Alexander Keith. So
Speaker 3: this already you're seeing kind of a similar thing as
Speaker 3: you mentioned with Roscoe. It's this sense of entitlement and
Speaker 3: that lack of loyalty towards one's family and this idea that,
Speaker 3: you know, take the easy roots in life. And this
Speaker 3: eventually leads him to become a serial bomber and one
Speaker 3: of the worst mass murderers in ever to come from Canada,
Speaker 3: one of the most prolific. But also really he's also
Speaker 3: a serial killer at the same time, not in the
Speaker 3: sexual sense, but the sense that he probably killed multiple
Speaker 3: people multiple occasions before the big mass murder happened.
Speaker 6: So let's talk about the big mass murder December eleventh,
Speaker 6: eighteen seventy five, and the steamship, the Mosul, and you
Speaker 6: talk about this big barrel that is being loaded on
Speaker 6: by workers and it falls and it blows up. So
Speaker 6: tell us what happens in this particular case with this
Speaker 6: which you've called the dynamiter, Yeah.
Speaker 3: Well I would yeah, dynamite fiend Well, Alexander Keith Junior.
Speaker 3: One of the ways that he gets money over the
Speaker 3: course of his lifetime is to take insurance policies out
Speaker 3: on ships or on their cargo, and then a lot
Speaker 3: of them seem to think for some reason, and he
Speaker 3: gets a big ryout. And we have no absolute proof
Speaker 3: that he was necessarily responsible for most of these, but
Speaker 3: given what happened in the case of the muscle you,
Speaker 3: we can certainly assume so. And you know how kind
Speaker 3: of lucky lucky quotation marks can you get that every
Speaker 3: time you ensure stuff on or these ships, or ensure
Speaker 3: the ship itself, it seems to go down. So he
Speaker 3: has a history of doing this. He's actually broke when
Speaker 3: he's living in Germany. Without getting into too much details
Speaker 3: about it, he was essentially a spy for the Confederates.
Speaker 3: That's that's right, actually out of Canada in the East
Speaker 3: Coast and working with the Confederate Army in the United States.
Speaker 3: And so when the Civil War ends, his fortunes kind
Speaker 3: of reverse and he ends up broken and hunted by
Speaker 3: bounty hunters with all these enemies in the US, and
Speaker 3: him and his wife have to go to Germany and
Speaker 3: change their names and kind of get new identities to
Speaker 3: have money for a while, but they live above their means,
Speaker 3: and they they squander a lot of it on frivolous stuff,
Speaker 3: trying to live a lifestyle like an upper class lifestyle.
Speaker 3: I'll hob nobbing with you know, other sort of wealthy
Speaker 3: middle class people and and they just can't really keep
Speaker 3: it up, and so the money starts to run out,
Speaker 3: and Sandy Keith goes, HM, I need to do something
Speaker 3: about this. So he returns to his old ways and
Speaker 3: he has an idea for this time bomb that is
Speaker 3: basically run by clockwork, and he starts visiting these clockmakers
Speaker 3: all over Germany, Austria, Switzerland, and he finally finds someone
Speaker 3: that can make like a clockwork time bomb to go
Speaker 3: inside inside this drum UH which he's placing on the mossel.
Speaker 3: And his idea is that it will go out to
Speaker 3: go out to sea and it will blow up and sink.
Speaker 3: And then because he he has UH an insurance policy
Speaker 3: on it UH or on some of the stuff on
Speaker 3: there that UH he'll just get his payout as it
Speaker 3: was in the past.
Speaker 6: Uh.
Speaker 3: He's actually there, uh, probably to ensure that everything goes okay,
Speaker 3: and he's watching them load things onto the ship.
Speaker 6: Uh.
Speaker 3: Unfortunately for him, it doesn't. And as you said, the
Speaker 3: drum falls off U. Uh the uh it falls down
Speaker 3: and it hits the the deck of the ship and
Speaker 3: it explodes prematurely. And uh, just in front of his
Speaker 3: own eyes for the first time, he has to actually
Speaker 3: see the devastation of of what he did.
Speaker 6: And Uh.
Speaker 3: In total, there's about eighty one people killed and fifty wounded.
Speaker 3: And it was just apparently this horrible sight. You know,
Speaker 3: people just dismembered and and maimed and bloody all over
Speaker 3: the place. It was considered like an international disaster at
Speaker 3: the time, you know, something probably comfortable to the you know,
Speaker 3: the Malaysia airlines of our own time. And it was
Speaker 3: just reported all over the world. And he is so shaken.
Speaker 3: He's either so shaken by what he sees or so
Speaker 3: sure that he's going to get caught, or maybe some
Speaker 3: combination of the two, that he actually goes down into
Speaker 3: his cabin below the deck and he attempts to commit suicide.
Speaker 3: Unfortunately for him at least he fails. And it's this
Speaker 3: failed suicide attempt which leads authorities to start looking at him.
Speaker 3: And the doctors are trying to keep him alive mostly
Speaker 3: to try and get details out of him, because they
Speaker 3: suspect he knows something.
Speaker 6: Now he's using an alias called UK Thomas, and so
Speaker 6: when there there's this big explosion, they think that they're
Speaker 6: trying to save whoever they can. And then they find
Speaker 6: him in his office with the locked door, and like
Speaker 6: you say, he shot himself a couple of times but
Speaker 6: didn't kill himself. So tell us what happens after that,
Speaker 6: and what happens how do they discover that it's not U. K.
Speaker 6: Thomas and it's Alexander Keith Jr.
Speaker 3: Well, as I said, the doctors are keeping him alive
Speaker 3: for a while, they learn his identity and his where
Speaker 3: his wife is So she received a visit from a
Speaker 3: detective and he told her that her husband had attempted
Speaker 3: to take his own life. The detective escorted his wife
Speaker 3: to Brennan by train and when she arrived, the local
Speaker 3: investigators started to interrogate her. At some point when they
Speaker 3: were questioning her, his wife, Cecilia slipped up. I guess
Speaker 3: she was in on it to some extent, and she
Speaker 3: started to refer to him as Alexander, at which point
Speaker 3: they know that there's something amiss here. She sees her
Speaker 3: husband and she starts begging for the doctor to kill him,
Speaker 3: to put him out of his misery. At the same time,
Speaker 3: she's pleading with her husband to repent because he's a
Speaker 3: very she's a very religious woman. She wants to be
Speaker 3: reunited with him in heaven after she left them. He says,
Speaker 3: I have been He says the last words to escape
Speaker 3: his lips, I have been a thick head. The fellows
Speaker 3: in New York are guilty. So he never actually really
Speaker 3: admits to it. He's still trying to lie at the
Speaker 3: very end there. But it's through the Pinkertons, with these
Speaker 3: little bits of nuggets as to his identity that they
Speaker 3: begin to try and figure out who this man is.
Speaker 3: And these Pinkertons have been on his trail since his
Speaker 3: time in the United States fleeing as a former Confederate agent,
Speaker 3: and eventually they put all the pieces together and it's
Speaker 3: dawns on them that this is actually the nephew of
Speaker 3: Alexander Keith Sandy Keith and that person that's been causing
Speaker 3: trouble all over the North America and that a lot
Speaker 3: of people have been looking for. And it's because he
Speaker 3: has this sort of this sort of notoriety and fame
Speaker 3: that they're able to connect Thomas and to Keith and
Speaker 3: realize that it's actually one of the same person.
Speaker 6: Yeah, incredible. Let's talk about one more story briefly, and
Speaker 6: then we can talk about some of the sort of
Speaker 6: analysis that you had from all doing this and covering
Speaker 6: and investigating these twenty five killers and their crimes and
Speaker 6: their backgrounds. So let's talk about Albert Gay September nineteen
Speaker 6: forty nine mass murderer, and his claim to fame was well,
Speaker 6: at least I die famous.
Speaker 3: But apparently it was. It was quite a coward on
Speaker 3: the gallows, So let's always keep that in mind. Albert Gay,
Speaker 3: he had a kind of similar thing to Alexander Keith.
Speaker 3: Albert Gay was a con man during the war period.
Speaker 3: He managed to get out of really being having to
Speaker 3: serve overseas and being drafted. He would do things like
Speaker 3: steel watches forgeries and stuff and try and try and
Speaker 3: get by uh, just as like a frauds or petty thief,
Speaker 3: and he married uh this young woman who was uh
Speaker 3: beautiful at the time. He was working with her at
Speaker 3: like a he was at a munitions factory or something
Speaker 3: like that, and uh they were very happy for a
Speaker 3: while until Albert Gay meets this other young woman uh
Speaker 3: as as he's approaching middle age, and he decides that
Speaker 3: he's done with his old wife and h he wants
Speaker 3: to be with this woman. So they're carrying out an
Speaker 3: affair for a long time, and uh eventually she want
Speaker 3: uh the young woman wants to call it quits. Albert
Speaker 3: Gay uh says, no, I I wanna be with you, uh,
Speaker 3: but she she blows him off, at which point he thinks, well,
Speaker 3: if I have my wife wasn't there anymore, and I
Speaker 3: had a bunch of money, then this woman is of
Speaker 3: course gonna love me because I'm Albert Gay. I'm I'm
Speaker 3: all that. So he uh he puts out an insurance
Speaker 3: policy on his wife. And she's taking a flight out
Speaker 3: from Quebec city, just a just kind of a local
Speaker 3: flight somewhere nearby, and Albert Gay has a bomb uh
Speaker 3: put on designed and and put on the plane. And
Speaker 3: shortly after the plane takes off with his wife on it.
Speaker 3: It blows up and uh and kills all these people,
Speaker 3: and he's uh stands the benefit having had the insurance
Speaker 3: out on her, and so he's very dramatic at her
Speaker 3: funeral and he and he's really playing it up as
Speaker 3: as the bereaved and and saying things like you know, oh,
Speaker 3: you know, don't don't worry about me, I'll you know,
Speaker 3: I can make it, and then bursting into tears. But
Speaker 3: it's all a big charade, and and some people become
Speaker 3: a little suspicious of him, and eventually it shown that
Speaker 3: he's part of the conspiracy of three people really two
Speaker 3: other people he he manipulated into helping him out with this.
Speaker 3: There was a woman who actually she checked in the
Speaker 3: luggage which contained the bomb. Gay didn't do that himself.
Speaker 3: He had this woman do it. And we don't know
Speaker 3: whether she actually knew what was in the luggage or not.
Speaker 3: It's sorts of some controversy. And she was when they
Speaker 3: finally did catch him, she was She also got caught too,
Speaker 3: And how it all happened was she attempted to commit
Speaker 3: suicide when she found out what had happened, but she survived.
Speaker 3: And when she was taken in she more or less
Speaker 3: confessed to everything that happened, and then it led to
Speaker 3: this third person, the guy who designed a bomb, who
Speaker 3: is like an old crippled man. And so Gay and
Speaker 3: his female and male accomplice all were tried, all convicted,
Speaker 3: and all hung and actually well hanged, i should say,
Speaker 3: and his female accomplass was the last woman to be
Speaker 3: hanged in Canada.
Speaker 6: Interesting. What was Albert Gay's Again, we talked about his background,
Speaker 6: but what did you conclude about Albert Gay as you
Speaker 6: did in your analysis of other killers in your book?
Speaker 6: What was particular and that you gleamed from the case
Speaker 6: of Albert Gay.
Speaker 3: It's hard to read Albert Gay himself, just like with
Speaker 3: any kind of confidence, because there's not a lot of
Speaker 3: sources about his personality. But I would definitely say that, like, yeah,
Speaker 3: he as he was certainly a narcissist, entitled, and very
Speaker 3: likely also a psychopath of sorts. Maybe not to the
Speaker 3: kind of extent that Roscoe was, because Roscoe had a
Speaker 3: number of criminal offenses and it was very versatile. Gay's
Speaker 3: stuff was mostly property crimes. At the same time, he
Speaker 3: was known to pull guns on people and such too,
Speaker 3: So he seems to have had maybe been a little
Speaker 3: bit more successful in Roscoe in some ways. But I
Speaker 3: would say that there's a chance that that Albert Gay
Speaker 3: was psychopathic too, And I don't just throw that out
Speaker 3: there casually. I actually run the tests on them when
Speaker 3: I have enough information, and he has a lot of
Speaker 3: psychopathic traits. The ability to do that really, to kill
Speaker 3: so many people just to get that one person to
Speaker 3: you know, to have your wife out of the way,
Speaker 3: and to get this insurance payout, unless you've got some
Speaker 3: kind of ideology going on, which he almost certainly didn't.
Speaker 3: You know, this wasn't my terrorist attack. It wasn't a statement.
Speaker 3: It was all meant to be sort of like as
Speaker 3: quiet as possible. So the fact that you could kill
Speaker 3: that many people that easily and not have it on
Speaker 3: your conscience and go on and live with your life,
Speaker 3: which is what a lot of these mass murders don't do.
Speaker 3: They die with their victims or alongside them. But he
Speaker 3: wants to just return to his life with money and
Speaker 3: marry this younger girl. So it's me right there that
Speaker 3: indicates someone who's at the very least like, as you said,
Speaker 3: I'm a malignant narcissist. But you know, probably it' psych
Speaker 3: about no remorse, you know, no empathy for anyone and
Speaker 3: to the other two people down with them?
Speaker 6: What was the with Albert? Can you give us any
Speaker 6: kind of insight on how he he possibly could manipulate
Speaker 6: these two separate people into aiding and abetting him. It's
Speaker 6: it's usually not I could see the one partner. I
Speaker 6: could see a you know, someone you were having an
Speaker 6: affair with. This seems to be tell us on how
Speaker 6: he got these two people that weren't so connected to
Speaker 6: this to him personally, to be involved in this incredible assassination.
Speaker 3: Well, first of all, he picks people who are very lonely,
Speaker 3: people like he has kind of like an I think
Speaker 3: she's a widow. Yeah, okay, that's that. She was known
Speaker 3: as as the Raven. Her name was Marguerite Pete p
Speaker 3: I t ri E. Perhaps I'm saying not wrong, but yes,
Speaker 3: she was the last woman executed in Canada. And the
Speaker 3: other guy is like, is a crippled old is like
Speaker 3: a crippled old man. And it's through this, basically them
Speaker 3: being alone, that he's able to ask someone who's like
Speaker 3: a predator in a comment. He's able to see some
Speaker 3: kind of weakness in them, and he's able to capitalize
Speaker 3: on that by you know, befriending them and such, and
Speaker 3: once they're complicit to a certain extent, then he can
Speaker 3: use the threats to get them to go along with him.
Speaker 6: So there is some similarities, it seems to to the
Speaker 6: Alexander Keith character with Albert Gay, and then Roscoe and
Speaker 6: Lapine seemed to be more of more commonalities with their character.
Speaker 6: Not to say they're the same, but they share some
Speaker 6: commonalities anyway.
Speaker 3: Yeah, kind of like in those first two cases, more
Speaker 3: of like a paranoia and a grudge against society or
Speaker 3: certain segments of society, whereas the last two guys, the bombers,
Speaker 3: they're really schemers. You know, this has got a financial
Speaker 3: purpose and so not typically what we think of when
Speaker 3: we think of a mass murderer. But we have two
Speaker 3: examples there right in Canadian history of people who've committed
Speaker 3: really devastating mass murders using something other than guns and bombs,
Speaker 3: which are much more devastating, and just doing it for money.
Speaker 6: Now you have twenty five cases in this book, and
Speaker 6: we've just been able to delve and put you know,
Speaker 6: put our toe in the water in terms of with
Speaker 6: four cases in this incredible book, and so tell us
Speaker 6: just a little bit about overall what is included with
Speaker 6: these twenty five cases. What do you cover in terms
Speaker 6: of the scope of what you are trying to convey
Speaker 6: in this book Rampage with the twenty five killers? What
Speaker 6: does it encompass?
Speaker 3: Okay, well, first of all, we look at the problems
Speaker 3: of how we define mass murders in spree killing, and
Speaker 3: I give examples of each, and then I look at
Speaker 3: the problems with those definitions. So we have, for instance,
Speaker 3: one of the guys in their swift Runner. That's actually
Speaker 3: a really fascinating case. This was essentially a psychotic cree
Speaker 3: man in the nineteenth century who believed that he had
Speaker 3: become possessed by the spirit of a whndigo and proceeded
Speaker 3: to during one winter, devoured his eight members of his
Speaker 3: family out in the wilds now. The interesting thing about
Speaker 3: swift Runner is he killed He killed his son. First
Speaker 3: his son, and then within a day or two killed
Speaker 3: six other members of his family, including four at the
Speaker 3: same time at the same crime scene. And then he
Speaker 3: stayed with his one son four months later before finally
Speaker 3: killing his son. So in the first instance, we have
Speaker 3: locations seemingly in the same incident where he kills the
Speaker 3: son and then kills other members of his family, so
Speaker 3: that seems to indicate a spree killing. But then when
Speaker 3: he's actually at that next location, he kills four people
Speaker 3: in a single incident, which is mass murder. But then
Speaker 3: he stays with the son for a long time enough
Speaker 3: to cool off seemingly and kills him later. So are
Speaker 3: we looking at someone who's a serial killer or a
Speaker 3: spree killer, or a mass murderer or all of the above.
Speaker 3: I propose the same challenges looking at rose ar Billideau,
Speaker 3: who was the first He was the first postal worker
Speaker 3: who went postal that I can find so far, and
Speaker 3: this was in this was in Canada actually, so I
Speaker 3: look at him through that Robert Pulen who shot up
Speaker 3: the Saint Pis the tenth school in Ottawa, and David Shearing,
Speaker 3: the Wells Grade gumman, who was really like a sex
Speaker 3: offender that used mass murderers as a way to facilitate
Speaker 3: his crimes. So that's just in the first two chapters
Speaker 3: of the book. I look at those. Then I look
Speaker 3: at the first rampage killers in Canadian history. And so
Speaker 3: just to kind of get an idea of like the
Speaker 3: first ones that were reported, and that's a lot of
Speaker 3: the domestic homicides, but interesting historical cases. Nevertheless, I look
Speaker 3: at some personality disorders. I used the three offenders and
Speaker 3: look at one who's a narcissist, one he's an anti
Speaker 3: social personality disorder, and one who seems to be a psychopath,
Speaker 3: Roscoe being the last of that. And so that gets
Speaker 3: into the cases of Valerie Fabricants at Concordia, Robert Raymond
Speaker 3: Cook who who seems to have killed his family out
Speaker 3: in the Prairies. And then I look at spree killers,
Speaker 3: which is something that we didn't get to cover on
Speaker 3: this show really yet with any spree killers. But I
Speaker 3: actually came up with a typology for spree killers because
Speaker 3: there wasn't one, so I thought, well why not. So
Speaker 3: I started lining up all the Canadian spree killers and
Speaker 3: seeing if I can find some patterns. So I came
Speaker 3: up with these four categories of spree killers, three of
Speaker 3: which I could see in Canada. And the one category
Speaker 3: is utilitarian and which I don't mean in the philosophical sense,
Speaker 3: but I mean that this is someone who kills out
Speaker 3: of utility, like they need a car, they need money
Speaker 3: to get away from the cops, they need a gun.
Speaker 3: So they're always committing murders basically to just further their
Speaker 3: own immediate cause, which oftentimes is just running from the police.
Speaker 3: I gave the cases of greg Re mcmaon and Jesse
Speaker 3: Jimeson to look at the utilitarian. I looked at them
Speaker 3: this category the exterminator, which is when you have a
Speaker 3: killer who goes on a rampage but specifically to take
Speaker 3: out a certain group in society. And so I have
Speaker 3: Marcello Palma there, who on Victoria Day, it was either
Speaker 3: ninety five or ninety six, it was in Toronto on
Speaker 3: Victoria Day. He just decided he was going to kill
Speaker 3: sex workers. So he killed three sex workers in downtown
Speaker 3: Toronto and then just kind of went missing. They would
Speaker 3: eventually catch him. And then I looked at Stephen Marshall,
Speaker 3: who was from who was from Cape Breton and he
Speaker 3: actually went on a rampage in the States and was
Speaker 3: going door to door killing registered sex offenders in Maine,
Speaker 3: and I kind of look at Yeah, I kind of
Speaker 3: look at too. I look at the similarities between him
Speaker 3: and Mark Lapine because I think there's a tendency for
Speaker 3: people to think, well, this Stephen Marshall guy, and he
Speaker 3: doesn't sound so bad, he's just getting rid of scum.
Speaker 3: And I really try and address, you know, what I
Speaker 3: consider to be a misconception. I mean, this guy is
Speaker 3: in the hero, he's just looking for a way to
Speaker 3: justify wanting to kill. And so I get into a
Speaker 3: lot of his psychological background there, look at some documents
Speaker 3: from his youth and I compare it to Mark Lapeine
Speaker 3: and say, look, there's kind of a similar thing happening here.
Speaker 3: And then finally, the last type of a spree killer
Speaker 3: I look at is a signature killer. That's one typically
Speaker 3: driven by you know, deviant sexual impulses paraphilia. And one
Speaker 3: of the cases I look at him there is one
Speaker 3: of the probably probably the most hideous cases I've ever
Speaker 3: heard of, and I can't believe it's not more well known,
Speaker 3: but it's of this guy, Dale Merle Nelson, who I
Speaker 3: think was September fourth and fifth, nineteen seventy was the
Speaker 3: start of hunting season, and he'd just been drinking all day.
Speaker 3: There's some reports actually that he may have taken acid too,
Speaker 3: and he just kind of flipped and he started going around.
Speaker 3: They were somehow related to him. But he went to
Speaker 3: this woman's house and she had I think it was
Speaker 3: three daughters, and he bashed her her head in and
Speaker 3: then raped one of her daughters. But then he started
Speaker 3: getting into like corpse mutilation and necrophilia and cannibalism, and
Speaker 3: then he mass murders an entire family that same night.
Speaker 3: So that is probably one of the most I think
Speaker 3: that's the most grotesque case I've ever written about in
Speaker 3: Canadian history, which is surprising that actually upstage the serial
Speaker 3: killers serial killers, you know as a spree killer, but
Speaker 3: that Dale Merl Nelson, So that's in there. And then
Speaker 3: I look at the typology of mass murderers that was
Speaker 3: proposed by Homes and Homes and the use cases to
Speaker 3: illustrate that. So we have a family annihilator, someone who
Speaker 3: went to wipe out their family. I used Leonard Hoague,
Speaker 3: who was a cop who was who had he had
Speaker 3: robbed a warehouse or something in British Columbia and he
Speaker 3: was about to get call for it and decided to
Speaker 3: take his family with him. That was in the sixties,
Speaker 3: So I look at him as a family annihilator. I
Speaker 3: look at disciples and ideological killers through looking at the
Speaker 3: Order of the Solar Temple. I mean, that's half a show.
Speaker 3: They're just talking about. Those guys absolutely absolutely crazy. It's
Speaker 3: one of these cults like you know Jonestown or the
Speaker 3: Manson family, whatever have you. But these guys actually had
Speaker 3: mass suicides and mass murders going on almost simultaneously around
Speaker 3: the globe, including in Quebec. So I look at that
Speaker 3: the Order of the Solar Temple, I look at typical
Speaker 3: disgruntled employee. I use Pierre Lebron who shot up the
Speaker 3: OC Transport depot there. I look at him as an
Speaker 3: example of that disgruntled citizen. That's basically some citizen who
Speaker 3: just kind of loses their marbles and shoots up things
Speaker 3: seemingly without a real motive that makes sense. The closest
Speaker 3: I could find for that was was Denny Lorti, who
Speaker 3: went commando and killed three people wounded thirteen in UH
Speaker 3: in Quebec attempting to take out the the PQ. And
Speaker 3: then I look at UH set and run killers. Those
Speaker 3: are killers that start fires or set bombs. So Albert
Speaker 3: Gay is under that that's the perfect example of your
Speaker 3: set and run killer and and finally I end with uh,
Speaker 3: psychotic killers, and I look at the very interesting case
Speaker 3: of Victor Hoffman, who was the Shell Lake murderer. And
Speaker 3: this guy was in and out of psychiatric hospitals. He
Speaker 3: was having vivid hallucinations that he was seeing kind of
Speaker 3: like uh, a black furred devil when this devil was
Speaker 3: telling him to kill and they just keep they let
Speaker 3: him out of the psychiatric institution anyways, and he ended
Speaker 3: up just killing a family in a farmhouse. So that's
Speaker 3: pretty much the scope of the book right there, you know,
Speaker 3: looking at killers as examples of different personality disorders and
Speaker 3: looking at them within these typologies.
Speaker 6: Yeah, it's a comprehensive study and it's very very entertaining
Speaker 6: because it's again for anybody, even in Canada, just most
Speaker 6: of these characters are not known at all, never mind
Speaker 6: well known, and for anybody outside of Canada, there's just
Speaker 6: there's enough character that you won't be bored by these
Speaker 6: Canadian killers by any means. In a fine analysis. And
Speaker 6: again kudos for the incredible amount of research and that
Speaker 6: you have to put into put it compiling this fine book.
Speaker 6: Now you've been on this the oh you're welcome, while
Speaker 6: also wanted to mention because the last time you were here,
Speaker 6: you have your fingers in your very prolific fingers in
Speaker 6: all kinds of other things, and writing is what you're
Speaker 6: doing full time. But you also have something of a
Speaker 6: fine publication called Serial Killer Quarterly. And I'm just I
Speaker 6: don't know, I know that you said you were just
Speaker 6: in Europe for a little bit, So tell us a
Speaker 6: little bit about serial Killer Quarterly and what's new, and
Speaker 6: just tell us a little bit about that.
Speaker 3: Sure, Okay, so serial Killer Quarterly. The idea was to
Speaker 3: bring back some of those little true detective type magazines
Speaker 3: kind of cut out a bunch of the more seedier
Speaker 3: elements of it, so those covers which I'm actually told
Speaker 3: that a lot of people have very fond esthotic memories
Speaker 3: about the covers of scantily clad women being put in
Speaker 3: trunks and such. We decided to sort of get rid
Speaker 3: of that element. Then really seem that that was something
Speaker 3: that we wanted to do or that should be done.
Speaker 3: You know where we are in the twenty first century.
Speaker 3: We kind of got rid of those seedier elements of it,
Speaker 3: yet we concentrated on providing really good high quality true
Speaker 3: crime articles about these serial killers, and so I started
Speaker 3: to build up a roster of writers, which is it
Speaker 3: blows my mind that they all got on board, but
Speaker 3: you know, Catherine Rams and Harold Scheckter, Michael Newton, Kathy
Speaker 3: Scott Brobert, a whole bunch of them. And so we
Speaker 3: put out eight issues of This Serial Killer Quarterly, which
Speaker 3: is kind of like an e magazine of which is
Speaker 3: taking the idea of the old true detective magazines. We've
Speaker 3: put out eight of them so far. So the issues
Speaker 3: we've done this year was Fatal Fetishes Number one and
Speaker 3: Fatal Fetish Number two. That was sp Winter and Spring,
Speaker 3: and that just looked at cases of serial killers who
Speaker 3: have all kinds of different paraphilias, going from stuff as
Speaker 3: kind of well known and obvious as pedophilia, and then
Speaker 3: kind of getting a little more out there looking at
Speaker 3: sexual sadus and necro files, and then even getting into
Speaker 3: some really bizarre ones like hair fetish killers, killers that
Speaker 3: have partialist fetish fetishes for legs or bondage enthusiasts.
Speaker 6: So we we.
Speaker 3: Covered almost like fifteen of those offenders in the first
Speaker 3: two Fatal Fetishist issues, and they're both available. You can
Speaker 3: get them in PDF form from www dot serial Killer
Speaker 3: Quarterly dot com, or if you want to just get
Speaker 3: them in an ebook form on Amazon, type in serial
Speaker 3: Killer Quarterly Fatal Fetishists and they'll come up. And the
Speaker 3: latest issue was actually on psychotic killers. So that's the
Speaker 3: killers that are motivated partially or almost completely by mental
Speaker 3: illness in the form of you know, schizophrenia, psychotic disorders.
Speaker 3: And so in that one we looked at Herb Mullen,
Speaker 3: and Herb Mullen was a guy killed thirty people in
Speaker 3: California because he believed that he needed to sacrifice people
Speaker 3: from Mother Earth and if he didn't do that, then
Speaker 3: these earthquakes would destroy California. And his whole reasoning was
Speaker 3: that the Vietnam War was winding down and there was
Speaker 3: so there's seemingly less casualties from that, and that corresponded
Speaker 3: with a increase in seismic activity in California. And to him,
Speaker 3: in this kind of psychotic magical thinking, he connects the two.
Speaker 3: You know, one causes the other, and so in order
Speaker 3: to stop California from being destroyed, he kills thirteen people.
Speaker 3: And so, yeah, psychotic Killers has got about six or
Speaker 3: seven cases like that, just really outlandish, unbelievable reasons why
Speaker 3: people are killed. One guy was trying to replenish his
Speaker 3: blood supply because he believed that Nazis were using UFOs
Speaker 3: to turn his blood into powder. And he thought this
Speaker 3: was happening because there is goo under his soap in
Speaker 3: the soap dish. So that's that's an example of some
Speaker 3: of the stories with.
Speaker 6: Yeah, incredible. Now, for those who'd like to know a
Speaker 6: little bit more about some of the other works that
Speaker 6: you have, and you said you run Dundurn, which also
Speaker 6: there's a Grinning Press, and there's a Serial Killer Quarterly. Man, Yeah,
Speaker 6: you have a Facebook page or a website that people
Speaker 6: can go to to get more information and and or
Speaker 6: purchase some of the material that we've been talking about tonight.
Speaker 3: Yeah.
Speaker 6: Sure.
Speaker 3: I mean, if you just want to know about me
Speaker 3: Lee Meller l E E M E L l O
Speaker 3: R dot com that as much as I can keep
Speaker 3: that up to date. That's got links to all the
Speaker 3: stuff I'm doing in my books the magazine. But for
Speaker 3: Serial Killer Quarterly, that's simple. Serial Killer Quarterly dot com.
Speaker 3: You can go there and you can get the PDFs
Speaker 3: or links out to Amazon with the ebooks there. We're
Speaker 3: actually just working on the page for Grinname Press itself
Speaker 3: as as a published as we're now expanding outside serial
Speaker 3: Killer Quarterly and we're going to be publishing true crime
Speaker 3: books and some fiction works too, so look for that
Speaker 3: coming on the horizon soon. I got some really exciting
Speaker 3: projects there, and yeah I do. On Facebook, I have
Speaker 3: a page for grinning Man Press. I have a serial
Speaker 3: Killer Quarterly page that's been really booming.
Speaker 6: We're up.
Speaker 3: I think we're either close to or above a thousand
Speaker 3: fans on that now and we get more every day.
Speaker 3: And then I have one for Coal North Killers and
Speaker 3: one for Rampage and I do my best to try
Speaker 3: and keep those updated. Every time there's a new serial
Speaker 3: killer potentially or confirmed in Canada, usually post news related
Speaker 3: to that on Coal North Killers. If it's a mass
Speaker 3: murder or speak killing, I do that on the Rampage site.
Speaker 6: Well, that's good work, and like you say, you're a
Speaker 6: very prolific guy and hard working at this and deserve
Speaker 6: all the success that you're getting with this and very
Speaker 6: fine product with serial Killer Quarterly. And this Rampage is
Speaker 6: just jam packed. It's an incredible amount of research and great,
Speaker 6: great writing and fantastic stories. So I want to thank
Speaker 6: you very much Lee for coming on and talking about
Speaker 6: rampage Canadian mass murder and spree killing, and thank you
Speaker 6: very much. And I'm sure we'll be talking to you
Speaker 6: in the near future.
Speaker 3: Oh I hope. So, Dan, it's always a pleasure to
Speaker 3: be on this show. We always i think, get in
Speaker 3: the show deeper than I'm able to go on into
Speaker 3: in a lot of radio programs, and so I'm always
Speaker 3: happy to come on and your wonderful host, and thank
Speaker 3: you for having me again.
Speaker 6: Well, thank you very much, and thank for the kind words.
Speaker 6: And you have yourself a great evening, and again I'll
Speaker 6: talk to you in the near future. Thank you, Lee.
Speaker 3: Okay, great bye, Dan, good night, good night,