WEBVTT 1 00:00:21.440 --> 00:00:25.679 Hello, and welcome to Western Ziev. In today's Bonus Author interview, 2 00:00:25.839 --> 00:00:30.039 I sit down with historian Bruce Gordon and we talk 3 00:00:30.079 --> 00:00:35.399 about his most recent book, The Bible A Global History. Now, 4 00:00:35.600 --> 00:00:39.320 for Christians everywhere, the Bible is a source of veneration. 5 00:00:39.439 --> 00:00:41.000 It is the word of. 6 00:00:41.039 --> 00:00:45.240 God the Gospels at least, but it's also a historical 7 00:00:45.359 --> 00:00:51.079 document and a document that has changed significantly over the centuries. 8 00:00:51.799 --> 00:00:54.799 Gordon's book looks at this phenomenon and the way in 9 00:00:54.840 --> 00:00:58.039 which the Bible has adapted itself to different cultures and 10 00:00:58.079 --> 00:01:03.799 throughout numerous different translations, some of them more successful than others. 11 00:01:04.719 --> 00:01:07.200 Today we talk about the book, which is available today 12 00:01:07.319 --> 00:01:10.480 if you're listening to this. As always, the link is 13 00:01:10.519 --> 00:01:14.040 in the show notes. And so, without further ado, here 14 00:01:14.120 --> 00:01:18.599 is historian Bruce Gordon with The Bible A Global History. 15 00:01:42.599 --> 00:01:45.359 All Right, welcome back. As I mentioned moments ago, sitting 16 00:01:45.359 --> 00:01:48.680 down with historian Bruce Gordon. Here we're talking about his 17 00:01:48.920 --> 00:01:52.760 most recent book, The Bible a Global History. It's a 18 00:01:53.000 --> 00:01:57.000 really interesting book that I really enjoyed reading, and I 19 00:01:57.040 --> 00:01:59.680 wanted to kind of start with the introduction because in 20 00:01:59.719 --> 00:02:03.959 the reduction, you write, the Bible is constantly becoming itself 21 00:02:04.439 --> 00:02:07.840 eternal and perfect. But each version or edition reflects what 22 00:02:07.920 --> 00:02:11.319 it cannot be, because it is the work of humans. 23 00:02:11.360 --> 00:02:13.080 And I thought that that was such a such a 24 00:02:13.120 --> 00:02:16.719 wonderful sentence and introduction, and I thought we could dig 25 00:02:16.759 --> 00:02:19.639 into it a little bit, like how should we see 26 00:02:19.680 --> 00:02:23.199 the Bible? Is it a historic document? Is it something else? 27 00:02:24.439 --> 00:02:27.080 Well? I think it's it's many things. It's it is 28 00:02:27.120 --> 00:02:32.919 a historical document. It evolves over a long period of time. 29 00:02:33.319 --> 00:02:35.439 It has a history. It is a book with a history. 30 00:02:35.879 --> 00:02:39.439 It's a book that it was that. You know, the 31 00:02:39.479 --> 00:02:42.879 Bible is a book of books, and therefore though each 32 00:02:42.919 --> 00:02:45.960 of those books has a history, just as each of 33 00:02:46.000 --> 00:02:50.960 those books is different forms of literature. We have poetry, 34 00:02:51.319 --> 00:02:56.879 we have historical narrative, we have letters, we have the Gospels, 35 00:02:57.919 --> 00:03:02.080 we have you know, proverbs. You know, many different types 36 00:03:02.199 --> 00:03:06.080 of genres of literature are in this book, and each 37 00:03:06.080 --> 00:03:09.400 has their own very distinctive history. And in some cases 38 00:03:09.400 --> 00:03:12.560 we have some idea who may have written them, and 39 00:03:12.639 --> 00:03:15.479 other cases we have less idea of of who wrote 40 00:03:15.520 --> 00:03:18.800 them or from what historical period they come from. You know, 41 00:03:18.840 --> 00:03:21.439 there are many mysteries about that background. But we do 42 00:03:21.560 --> 00:03:24.719 know that both the Hebrew Bible and the New Testament 43 00:03:25.159 --> 00:03:29.360 evolve over time, and that that that they emerged as 44 00:03:29.400 --> 00:03:31.400 the book that we know over a period of time, 45 00:03:31.439 --> 00:03:36.960 because there was considerable development and disagreement over particularly with 46 00:03:37.000 --> 00:03:40.719 the New Testament, which you know, which not so much 47 00:03:40.719 --> 00:03:43.639 in which gospels, but you know, but also the gospels, 48 00:03:43.639 --> 00:03:47.240 but letters and were to be included in which were 49 00:03:47.280 --> 00:03:51.240 not to be included. That that took centuries to emerge, 50 00:03:51.319 --> 00:03:54.639 and even today, the you know, the canon of the 51 00:03:54.680 --> 00:04:00.159 Bible varies in you know, across different denominations of Christianity. 52 00:04:00.520 --> 00:04:05.159 So it's it's a book that's had a historical development 53 00:04:05.560 --> 00:04:11.000 that continues that in a sense that historical development continues 54 00:04:11.039 --> 00:04:13.879 to this day. It's extraordinarily dynamic. 55 00:04:14.759 --> 00:04:17.519 Yes, I think one of the things that I find 56 00:04:17.839 --> 00:04:20.079 really interesting about the Bible, and that a lot of 57 00:04:20.720 --> 00:04:23.839 individuals that I talked to about it don't realize, is that, 58 00:04:24.519 --> 00:04:27.040 you know, we had to make a series of decisions 59 00:04:27.279 --> 00:04:31.040 as humans throughout history in terms of what was going 60 00:04:31.120 --> 00:04:35.399 to be included. It wasn't sort of passed down in 61 00:04:35.439 --> 00:04:38.319 its complete and existing form as it is. And I 62 00:04:38.360 --> 00:04:40.680 think that that's something that I'd like to get into 63 00:04:40.720 --> 00:04:43.959 in a little bit about that. But first, I'm really 64 00:04:44.079 --> 00:04:49.959 fascinated with sort of the early Church and the earliest 65 00:04:50.160 --> 00:04:55.839 versions of the Bible and what those might have looked like. 66 00:04:56.199 --> 00:05:00.600 And I'm always surprised when I talked to Historicrians who 67 00:05:00.720 --> 00:05:03.600 study the early Church who tell me that we don't 68 00:05:03.639 --> 00:05:06.759 know as much as maybe we'd like to know. And 69 00:05:06.839 --> 00:05:10.000 so I guess I'm interested in knowing, like what what 70 00:05:10.160 --> 00:05:15.079 do we know about the earliest versions of the Bible? 71 00:05:15.399 --> 00:05:18.519 You know, when were these documents put together for the 72 00:05:18.519 --> 00:05:21.800 first time, and what did that look like? What was 73 00:05:21.800 --> 00:05:25.360 that process like? Like what what can we understand? You know, 74 00:05:25.399 --> 00:05:28.399 we're talking about you know, obviously first century here, like 75 00:05:28.560 --> 00:05:30.439 the the beginnings of the church. 76 00:05:30.560 --> 00:05:33.800 How did that look? Yeah, it's well, it's it's just 77 00:05:33.839 --> 00:05:35.720 as you say. There there are a lot of different 78 00:05:35.839 --> 00:05:41.800 views on this because the evidence is is difficult. There 79 00:05:41.839 --> 00:05:44.879 is consensus about a number of it, but there's there's 80 00:05:44.879 --> 00:05:46.839 a lot that we don't We don't know. I mean, 81 00:05:46.839 --> 00:05:49.680 what we do know is that, you know, Jesus never 82 00:05:49.720 --> 00:05:53.560 wrote a book. You know, Jesus didn't write anything. What 83 00:05:53.600 --> 00:06:00.959 we have, of course, are reports, your memories, reports versions 84 00:06:01.040 --> 00:06:05.399 of of what Jesus said. These these become the Gospels, 85 00:06:05.680 --> 00:06:09.199 but it's you know, biblical scholars will tell us that 86 00:06:09.759 --> 00:06:14.680 those gospels probably circulated to some degree independently, but then 87 00:06:15.199 --> 00:06:18.519 over a period of time, particularly the Synoptic Gospels of 88 00:06:19.199 --> 00:06:23.279 Uh you know, Mark, Matthew, and and and Luke were 89 00:06:23.360 --> 00:06:26.920 interacting with each other and evolve over a period of 90 00:06:27.000 --> 00:06:29.519 time in the first and into the second into the 91 00:06:29.560 --> 00:06:34.959 second centuries. We know that these texts circulated amongst different communities. 92 00:06:35.439 --> 00:06:39.000 You know, obviously only small numbers of people could actually 93 00:06:39.040 --> 00:06:44.399 read them, so they had a vivid oral tradition. They 94 00:06:44.399 --> 00:06:49.759 were heard, the sayings of Jesus were repeated. So it's 95 00:06:49.879 --> 00:06:55.639 it's the early versions of scripture were very much within 96 00:06:57.959 --> 00:07:03.759 communities that were bread increasingly across the Mediterranean world and 97 00:07:03.920 --> 00:07:08.079 east in towards you know what is modern day Iran 98 00:07:08.439 --> 00:07:12.680 and and and further, so that these texts are in circulation, 99 00:07:13.079 --> 00:07:16.279 but there's no clear you know, you know, canonical form 100 00:07:16.360 --> 00:07:19.839 of them. They're texts that are evolving over a period 101 00:07:19.879 --> 00:07:23.800 of time. If we take also the letters of Paul, 102 00:07:23.959 --> 00:07:26.720 you know, they're they're circulating, but we you know, we 103 00:07:26.800 --> 00:07:28.920 now know that some of those letters that were thought 104 00:07:28.959 --> 00:07:31.360 to be by Paul may not be by Paul. They 105 00:07:31.399 --> 00:07:35.199 may not be. They may be by you know, a 106 00:07:35.279 --> 00:07:37.600 disciple of Paul, they may be by someone else. We 107 00:07:37.680 --> 00:07:40.079 have names for a number of the letters, but we 108 00:07:40.160 --> 00:07:43.399 don't really know for certain whether these are the these 109 00:07:43.439 --> 00:07:46.560 are the actual authors of them. But in a way 110 00:07:46.639 --> 00:07:50.720 that didn't matter hugely because they they were greatly treasured 111 00:07:51.000 --> 00:07:55.680 as accounts and teachings of the church that were in circulation. 112 00:07:56.040 --> 00:07:59.879 But they were in circulation with a much broader literature 113 00:08:00.120 --> 00:08:02.959 of other letters, other gospels that are, that were being 114 00:08:03.079 --> 00:08:06.319 used by different communities. I think it's important to remember 115 00:08:06.399 --> 00:08:08.720 that a lot of these texts really existed at the 116 00:08:08.759 --> 00:08:12.639 local level in communities, some of which were in contact 117 00:08:12.680 --> 00:08:15.319 with each other. Others they were they were isolated from. 118 00:08:15.360 --> 00:08:18.360 So the the emergence of the of the Bible is 119 00:08:18.439 --> 00:08:22.560 not a kind of easy trajectory. It's it's about a 120 00:08:22.600 --> 00:08:26.600 lot of different areas using different versions of of of 121 00:08:26.720 --> 00:08:30.319 scripture we know from you know when, which is where 122 00:08:30.399 --> 00:08:33.080 you know, my book really picks up with the emergence 123 00:08:33.440 --> 00:08:36.120 of the Codex, which is the Bible and in a 124 00:08:36.200 --> 00:08:40.120 book form which emerges really from the second century onwards. 125 00:08:40.559 --> 00:08:46.519 That those collections of the Hebrew Bible and of the 126 00:08:46.919 --> 00:08:50.799 New Testament were made up of many different versions that 127 00:08:50.919 --> 00:08:53.840 may have been compiled together. So there there are many 128 00:08:54.000 --> 00:08:56.960 versions of the Gospels and many versions of the Letters 129 00:08:57.159 --> 00:08:59.200 which are lost to us, where we might only have 130 00:08:59.279 --> 00:09:02.399 the smallest of them. So exactly as you say that 131 00:09:02.639 --> 00:09:06.320 our knowledge of them is is is very partial. But 132 00:09:06.440 --> 00:09:10.360 we know that they were circulating amongst Christian communities, they 133 00:09:10.399 --> 00:09:14.919 were being read, they were there was preaching, but there 134 00:09:14.960 --> 00:09:18.279 was also enormous variety, and so that the the kind 135 00:09:18.320 --> 00:09:22.039 of text that we have now only comes together over 136 00:09:22.120 --> 00:09:25.919 a period of centuries. It's not set at an early 137 00:09:26.080 --> 00:09:29.120 at an early stage. There are many different versions that 138 00:09:29.559 --> 00:09:34.120 were in circulation at the same time, and these versions 139 00:09:34.159 --> 00:09:38.519 were then sometimes brought together and compiled, or they existed 140 00:09:38.639 --> 00:09:42.120 quite independent of each other. So it's a we talked 141 00:09:42.159 --> 00:09:44.600 about this idea of the Bible having a history from 142 00:09:44.679 --> 00:09:48.159 its earliest stage. It's it's it's it's a book that 143 00:09:48.559 --> 00:09:52.840 is coming together in different ways over over a long 144 00:09:52.879 --> 00:09:53.639 period of time. 145 00:09:56.080 --> 00:09:58.240 And I guess that's something that I wanted to ask about, 146 00:09:58.279 --> 00:10:01.039 and that is kind of the uniqueness of the idea 147 00:10:01.279 --> 00:10:06.120 of the codex. Is is Christianity, especially that early Christianity 148 00:10:06.600 --> 00:10:10.000 where they're starting to compile in the second century, the 149 00:10:10.039 --> 00:10:12.279 the what is going to become the Bible. 150 00:10:12.600 --> 00:10:14.080 Is there something unique about that? 151 00:10:14.159 --> 00:10:16.639 It's something unique about the idea that we'll have all 152 00:10:16.679 --> 00:10:20.039 of our sacred texts in one codex. 153 00:10:20.759 --> 00:10:25.559 Yes, yes, you know. It is a remarkably distinctive aspect 154 00:10:25.759 --> 00:10:30.360 of of you know, the Christian Bible. And I use 155 00:10:30.399 --> 00:10:33.519 that term very very clearly. Which is which holds together 156 00:10:33.639 --> 00:10:36.759 the Hebrew Bible or what's you know, often referred to 157 00:10:36.799 --> 00:10:42.159 as the Old Testament and the New Testament writings, bringing 158 00:10:42.200 --> 00:10:46.240 those together in a book form. That's what the codex is. 159 00:10:46.320 --> 00:10:49.360 It's the creation of what we would identify as a 160 00:10:49.519 --> 00:10:54.360 book in which leaves of of of you know, what 161 00:10:54.399 --> 00:10:56.639 we have now with paper, but you know, emerges from 162 00:10:56.679 --> 00:11:02.919 papyrus into into vellum. The skin of animals is put together, 163 00:11:03.399 --> 00:11:08.279 bound together as in the form of pages in a 164 00:11:08.799 --> 00:11:13.279 book that can be carried around. The earliest forms of 165 00:11:13.320 --> 00:11:17.879 the Christian codecs were probably quite rough forms, rather loosely bound, 166 00:11:17.960 --> 00:11:21.240 stitched together, so that they could be used for transportation, 167 00:11:21.440 --> 00:11:24.919 They could be used in put into people's pockets, they 168 00:11:24.960 --> 00:11:27.559 could be moved from community to community, and this was 169 00:11:27.600 --> 00:11:32.000 particularly important because you know, Christians are being persecuted these communities. 170 00:11:32.120 --> 00:11:35.080 They needed to be able to have access to their 171 00:11:35.240 --> 00:11:39.519 sacred texts in a way that was easily transportable. Of course, 172 00:11:39.600 --> 00:11:45.080 the Jewish tradition is of roles, of the sacred roles 173 00:11:45.120 --> 00:11:51.080 of the Torah. These roles were kept in specific locations. 174 00:11:51.320 --> 00:11:56.720 They were not generally meant for rapid dissemination through through transportation. 175 00:11:57.120 --> 00:12:01.799 The Christian idea is somewhat different. These these texts are 176 00:12:02.200 --> 00:12:05.480 really going to be for the people. They are not 177 00:12:05.960 --> 00:12:09.879 for simply an elite clergy. But the idea right from 178 00:12:09.919 --> 00:12:12.279 the beginning of the of the New Testament writings is 179 00:12:12.519 --> 00:12:15.240 they are for the people. It is a text that 180 00:12:15.320 --> 00:12:18.679 should be highly accessible. This is why, you know, very 181 00:12:18.759 --> 00:12:23.600 quickly it is translated into the languages of people across 182 00:12:24.679 --> 00:12:28.320 you know, the Mediterranean and Middle Eastern world, as they say, 183 00:12:28.360 --> 00:12:32.559 from from from the Euphrates to North Africa and into 184 00:12:32.600 --> 00:12:38.039 what is modern day Turkey Anatolia. These these texts are 185 00:12:38.360 --> 00:12:41.600 being translated, and they're being carried in a way that 186 00:12:41.759 --> 00:12:47.679 is distinctive from the Jewish tradition, and and they're being 187 00:12:48.080 --> 00:12:52.320 bound together very much in a practical way that that 188 00:12:52.519 --> 00:12:55.679 allows the people to transport these. But it also has 189 00:12:55.720 --> 00:12:59.720 another significant aspect to it. When we look at a 190 00:12:59.759 --> 00:13:05.200 book as opposed to a scroll, which is the traditional 191 00:13:05.279 --> 00:13:08.799 form of writing both in the Hebrew tradition but also 192 00:13:08.919 --> 00:13:13.159 in the Roman Greek world, a book it allows us 193 00:13:13.200 --> 00:13:15.759 to do something quite different. Whereas you might have to 194 00:13:15.799 --> 00:13:21.200 consult different roles or roles in to get to a text, 195 00:13:21.360 --> 00:13:25.320 a book allows rather easy access between or a codex 196 00:13:25.519 --> 00:13:28.399 allows easy access for you to move through the whole 197 00:13:28.440 --> 00:13:32.559 text from beginning to end, to the middle, backwards and forwards. 198 00:13:32.639 --> 00:13:38.279 It allows you to cross read texts. It introduces different 199 00:13:38.600 --> 00:13:42.679 ways of reading of a sacred text that had not 200 00:13:43.039 --> 00:13:47.679 existed before, and this becomes a distinctive aspect of the 201 00:13:47.799 --> 00:13:52.639 Christian communities from the second century onwards towards the fourth 202 00:13:52.679 --> 00:13:57.000 and fifth century, where you get the creation of these extraordinary, 203 00:13:57.200 --> 00:14:04.559 large and complex codices which bring together divergent traditions of 204 00:14:04.720 --> 00:14:08.679 the manuscripts. But the first forms of the codex are 205 00:14:08.720 --> 00:14:12.080 really quite rough and ready texts that were being carried 206 00:14:12.120 --> 00:14:16.519 through communities. They were very practical, and they demonstrate that 207 00:14:16.559 --> 00:14:20.120 the text itself is not a kind of sacred thing 208 00:14:20.200 --> 00:14:22.720 which is separate from the people, but it's something that's 209 00:14:22.799 --> 00:14:26.240 to be brought into the communities that people have that 210 00:14:26.320 --> 00:14:29.600 have access to it. The Christians do not invent the Codex. 211 00:14:29.679 --> 00:14:31.919 It's there in the Roman world, but they make it 212 00:14:31.960 --> 00:14:35.120 a very distinctive part of their sacred writings from a 213 00:14:35.120 --> 00:14:36.399 fairly early stage. 214 00:14:36.960 --> 00:14:41.000 And so I guess given that, given what you just 215 00:14:41.159 --> 00:14:43.759 mentioned in terms of how the book was the Codex 216 00:14:43.840 --> 00:14:47.200 was put together, what can we glean about some of 217 00:14:47.279 --> 00:14:50.200 maybe the practices of the early Church as we get 218 00:14:50.200 --> 00:14:54.120 into the second century, that the early Bible, that the 219 00:14:54.159 --> 00:14:56.480 early Codex can give us an indication of. 220 00:14:58.240 --> 00:15:01.320 Yeah, well, what we get to send of is as 221 00:15:01.360 --> 00:15:04.639 I was mentioning before, is of a text that doesn't 222 00:15:04.679 --> 00:15:07.840 exist as a whole Bible. We don't have what we 223 00:15:07.879 --> 00:15:11.080 would think of as a whole Bible till much much later. 224 00:15:11.519 --> 00:15:15.960 We have to think about letters and Gospels and other writings, 225 00:15:16.320 --> 00:15:21.279 you know, circulating in probably quite small and individual texts 226 00:15:21.559 --> 00:15:26.200 being carried between communities, being copied. We can we should 227 00:15:26.200 --> 00:15:30.120 think of lay people, in many of them women, having 228 00:15:30.279 --> 00:15:35.159 copies of sacred texts that they use for personal reading, 229 00:15:35.240 --> 00:15:38.919 or reading in the family, or reading in communities. What 230 00:15:39.000 --> 00:15:41.399 we really see is that you know, what will become 231 00:15:41.440 --> 00:15:45.960 the Bible is a text that's circulating in parts, very 232 00:15:46.039 --> 00:15:52.919 widely across a large territory of of you know, both 233 00:15:52.960 --> 00:15:57.000 the Roman Greco world, but also east into the Syriac 234 00:15:57.039 --> 00:16:01.799 and Persian worlds. So of a text that's constantly in motion, 235 00:16:02.360 --> 00:16:07.759 is being read by local communities, is being part of worship, 236 00:16:09.120 --> 00:16:12.000 but it's not existing as a Bibles we would think 237 00:16:12.039 --> 00:16:16.159 of it now, but as many different parts that are 238 00:16:16.200 --> 00:16:20.200 being transported. And sometimes we can know from these early 239 00:16:21.120 --> 00:16:24.399 codexes that different parts of it were being stitched together, 240 00:16:24.440 --> 00:16:26.919 so it always it had many you know, depending on 241 00:16:26.960 --> 00:16:30.320 the location and depending on owners, it could have very many, 242 00:16:30.399 --> 00:16:33.559 many different forms where different books of the texts are 243 00:16:34.600 --> 00:16:38.240 stitched together in different orders. The idea that it has 244 00:16:38.279 --> 00:16:41.159 a form like we know it now doesn't emerge till 245 00:16:41.240 --> 00:16:46.000 till much later. So there's extraordinary fluidity of these texts 246 00:16:46.039 --> 00:16:47.799 in their numerous localities. 247 00:16:48.320 --> 00:16:50.679 And as you were talking, I couldn't help but wonder 248 00:16:51.399 --> 00:16:55.159 the fact that this is a codex influence in any 249 00:16:55.159 --> 00:16:59.279 way the spread of Christianity, because it strikes me that 250 00:16:59.320 --> 00:17:03.120 it would be much easier to transport the sacred text 251 00:17:03.200 --> 00:17:05.519 of a religion if they if they are together and 252 00:17:05.599 --> 00:17:09.359 also easier to move around them, let's say a box 253 00:17:09.400 --> 00:17:12.839 of scrolls or something like that. Is there anything to 254 00:17:12.920 --> 00:17:13.519 that notion. 255 00:17:15.599 --> 00:17:17.960 Yeah, I think there's a lot to that notion. It's 256 00:17:18.000 --> 00:17:21.480 it's as I've mentioned before, it's a text that's meant 257 00:17:21.519 --> 00:17:23.559 to be on the move. And you know, one of 258 00:17:23.599 --> 00:17:25.680 the things I refer to in the in the book 259 00:17:25.759 --> 00:17:28.480 is that in a sense, the Bible has always been 260 00:17:28.519 --> 00:17:32.880 a book in exile. It emerges out of the Palestinian world, 261 00:17:33.960 --> 00:17:38.319 of out of ancient Israel, but it's from its earliest stages, 262 00:17:38.440 --> 00:17:43.079 as Jesus commands in the Gospels to go forth into 263 00:17:43.079 --> 00:17:46.680 the world. It's a missionary religion. It means it's a 264 00:17:46.799 --> 00:17:50.000 it's a religion of travel, so that these sacred texts, 265 00:17:50.039 --> 00:17:52.920 right from the beginning are on the move, which means 266 00:17:52.920 --> 00:17:56.799 they are going into different communities widespread in the in 267 00:17:57.640 --> 00:18:01.160 the first and second centuries. It's a media being translated 268 00:18:01.240 --> 00:18:04.319 into those communities. Every time you have a translation, you 269 00:18:04.400 --> 00:18:07.599 have a new version of the text. We don't in 270 00:18:07.640 --> 00:18:11.920 a sense the Christian Bible or the Biblical text er 271 00:18:12.079 --> 00:18:17.039 so there's no sense of a strong sacred language. There's Greek, 272 00:18:17.319 --> 00:18:19.720 and of course there's the Hebrew of the Hebrew Bible 273 00:18:19.759 --> 00:18:23.599 Old Testament, but very quickly it seemed that it's essential 274 00:18:23.640 --> 00:18:27.119 to the missionary nature of Christianity that it's translated into 275 00:18:27.160 --> 00:18:30.519 other languages. So therefore, very early on we get Syriac, 276 00:18:30.799 --> 00:18:34.319 we get Coptic. It will move ultimately towards the Caucusus 277 00:18:34.359 --> 00:18:38.279 and we'll get Armenian and Georgian. It will you know, 278 00:18:38.480 --> 00:18:40.000 in Latin in the West. 279 00:18:40.119 --> 00:18:45.079 So it's a book that's in excel in that it's 280 00:18:45.240 --> 00:18:49.599 very quickly going into lands quite distant from where it 281 00:18:49.640 --> 00:18:54.440 comes from, and in those lands it has its own life, 282 00:18:54.759 --> 00:18:57.799 very different lives, based on different forms of the text, 283 00:18:58.160 --> 00:19:02.000 through textual traditions, based on language, based on the order 284 00:19:02.039 --> 00:19:02.599 in which. 285 00:19:02.400 --> 00:19:05.599 People put these these books of the Bible together. So 286 00:19:05.640 --> 00:19:08.640 it's you have no one form of the Bible, but 287 00:19:08.759 --> 00:19:13.359 extraordinary range of versions of it. And that's always been 288 00:19:13.480 --> 00:19:16.319 the life of the Bible. It's it's existed in its 289 00:19:16.359 --> 00:19:22.279 in localities through language and textual forms, and later this 290 00:19:22.359 --> 00:19:27.359 will take on traditions of illustration and binding, so that 291 00:19:27.440 --> 00:19:31.079 you get unique cultures of the Bible from the earliest 292 00:19:31.079 --> 00:19:33.960 stages in the many different lands that it goes to 293 00:19:34.359 --> 00:19:38.440 but the codex, as you say, gives it that ability 294 00:19:38.519 --> 00:19:41.960 to travel, and it also gives you the ability, as 295 00:19:41.960 --> 00:19:45.240 I mentioned before, to read the text whether you know, 296 00:19:45.279 --> 00:19:48.279 it's unlikely in the early centuries that they had complete Bibles, 297 00:19:48.319 --> 00:19:50.880 but it allows you to read whatever texts that you 298 00:19:51.000 --> 00:19:54.720 have sort of with, you know, together, to read them 299 00:19:54.839 --> 00:19:58.079 as as a whole, to refer back and forth between them. 300 00:19:58.240 --> 00:20:01.640 This is something that's quite unique in the Christian formation 301 00:20:01.799 --> 00:20:02.599 of its Bible. 302 00:20:03.279 --> 00:20:07.119 Well, let's talk about translation, because I think that that's 303 00:20:07.160 --> 00:20:11.240 something that's really crucial to understanding the life and the 304 00:20:11.279 --> 00:20:15.000 story of the Bible. Because the fact of the matter 305 00:20:15.160 --> 00:20:18.200 is is that, as you mentioned, it is translated, and 306 00:20:18.319 --> 00:20:22.000 is translated in many languages over a long period of time, 307 00:20:22.039 --> 00:20:25.960 has a very famous translation into Latin, and some of 308 00:20:26.000 --> 00:20:30.319 those translations over the centuries are maybe less than ideal. 309 00:20:31.319 --> 00:20:36.359 So how do all these various translations influence the life 310 00:20:36.400 --> 00:20:37.000 of the Bible? 311 00:20:37.839 --> 00:20:41.720 Yeah, so a translation, you know, the whole idea right 312 00:20:41.759 --> 00:20:44.759 back to the root of the word, you know, suggests 313 00:20:45.000 --> 00:20:50.279 movement of transportation. And here it's the you know, it's translation. 314 00:20:50.359 --> 00:20:53.240 I think you have to understand, is not just you know, 315 00:20:53.319 --> 00:20:55.440 dealing with words. How do you get the words from 316 00:20:55.480 --> 00:20:59.480 one language into another language. It's, you know, as it 317 00:20:59.559 --> 00:21:04.319 is for us today. Our our language is very much 318 00:21:04.359 --> 00:21:09.000 our culture, it's ourselves, it's it's everything about us. And 319 00:21:09.079 --> 00:21:13.240 so translation is the shifting up the Bible from culture 320 00:21:13.359 --> 00:21:17.720 to culture, not simply from one language to another, but 321 00:21:17.799 --> 00:21:20.720 right from the beginning, as I've said before, the Bible 322 00:21:20.799 --> 00:21:24.599 is a book that is being translated very quickly from 323 00:21:24.799 --> 00:21:29.160 you know, we go back to the earliest languages of Hebrew, Aramaic, 324 00:21:29.799 --> 00:21:33.200 and the Semitic languages Syriac, and then of course the 325 00:21:33.240 --> 00:21:37.880 Greek of the of the New Testament is translated into 326 00:21:38.119 --> 00:21:42.119 into Latin, it's translated into Coptic of Egypt. Later it 327 00:21:42.160 --> 00:21:46.079 will go into the Ethiopic of Geeze, of the egypt 328 00:21:46.319 --> 00:21:52.240 Ethiopian Church. It's it's spreading very very quickly, because language 329 00:21:52.839 --> 00:21:56.000 is at the heart of the dissemination of the Bible. 330 00:21:56.119 --> 00:21:58.759 But as I say, not just in terms of words, 331 00:21:59.359 --> 00:22:02.279 but in terms terms of the whole shifting of the 332 00:22:02.319 --> 00:22:07.200 culture of the Bible, as it's spreading very quickly geographically. 333 00:22:07.519 --> 00:22:10.839 But translation exactly as you say, is at the heart 334 00:22:10.880 --> 00:22:15.680 of this because in its origins, of course, we have 335 00:22:15.920 --> 00:22:19.200 the Hebrew and then the Greek in which most of 336 00:22:19.240 --> 00:22:25.359 the New Testament writers wrote, but also we have Aramaic, 337 00:22:26.079 --> 00:22:29.440 and we know, for instance, the septuagen which is the 338 00:22:29.480 --> 00:22:34.240 Greek translation of the of the of the Hebrew Bible, 339 00:22:34.279 --> 00:22:39.880 which was created in Alexandria in Egypt for a for 340 00:22:39.880 --> 00:22:42.000 for Jews who were living in a kind of Greco 341 00:22:42.079 --> 00:22:45.559 Roman world who no longer knew Hebrew. So that there 342 00:22:45.640 --> 00:22:47.880 was the question of of you know, what is the 343 00:22:48.160 --> 00:22:52.160 exactly authentic language that that one should go back to 344 00:22:52.640 --> 00:22:55.680 in in in Christianity sate before, there's no sense of 345 00:22:55.720 --> 00:22:58.920 a sacred language. The language is always of the of 346 00:22:58.960 --> 00:23:02.279 the scriptures, has always been the language of the people. 347 00:23:03.279 --> 00:23:07.200 But you know, anyone who is engaged with translation knows 348 00:23:07.359 --> 00:23:12.200 that it's extremely challenging to move the concepts that are 349 00:23:12.240 --> 00:23:17.160 formed in one language into another. How do you accommodate 350 00:23:17.640 --> 00:23:20.880 one language with another? How do you And this will 351 00:23:20.920 --> 00:23:25.359 become a major issue later as I talk about when 352 00:23:25.359 --> 00:23:28.599 you go into Asia and you have translated and India 353 00:23:29.160 --> 00:23:34.519 where you have translations into Chinese into a range of 354 00:23:34.519 --> 00:23:39.960 Indian languages, in Tibet or in Southeast in the Pacific world, 355 00:23:41.079 --> 00:23:47.440 where languages that do not have exact translations for Christian 356 00:23:47.480 --> 00:23:50.799 ideas such as as the Trinity, or even for the 357 00:23:50.880 --> 00:23:55.920 Christian notion of a monotheistic God, so that it becomes 358 00:23:56.039 --> 00:23:59.440 very controversial. But how do you find the right words 359 00:23:59.480 --> 00:24:04.359 in this other language to express the original idea? So 360 00:24:04.359 --> 00:24:10.880 so translation is an extremely fraught endeavors and which exists 361 00:24:10.960 --> 00:24:13.000 right from the beginning. How do you how do you 362 00:24:13.079 --> 00:24:19.400 shift these ideas across cultures, across languages and in translation. 363 00:24:19.559 --> 00:24:23.640 The Scripture has a number of remarkable effects in an 364 00:24:23.640 --> 00:24:26.880 early stage. So you can use the example of Armenian 365 00:24:27.039 --> 00:24:31.920 where Christianity, which is the first Christian kingdom, when when 366 00:24:32.039 --> 00:24:37.359 the Greek writings of the of the both the Old 367 00:24:37.440 --> 00:24:41.599 and New Testament arrive in Armenia, there there they want 368 00:24:41.640 --> 00:24:44.480 to convert the people. But Armenian that point is not 369 00:24:44.559 --> 00:24:48.200 a written language. It's it's a spoken language. And this 370 00:24:48.240 --> 00:24:50.440 happens again and again. This will happen later in the 371 00:24:50.519 --> 00:24:55.799 nineteenth century with colonialism is how do you take how 372 00:24:55.839 --> 00:24:58.359 do you bring the Bible into a language that is 373 00:24:58.440 --> 00:25:01.799 primarily oral. And in the case of Armenia that I 374 00:25:01.799 --> 00:25:05.640 mentioned before, the Bible actually plays a crucial role in 375 00:25:05.680 --> 00:25:10.480 the creation of a written language, So the Bible becomes 376 00:25:10.799 --> 00:25:16.920 this instrument of language creation. So it's not just being translated, 377 00:25:17.079 --> 00:25:21.799 but it's also creating languages, and it creates forms of languages. 378 00:25:21.960 --> 00:25:26.319 So there's always this dynamic relationship with language. But then 379 00:25:26.359 --> 00:25:30.400 you raise the question of the Latin famously translated by 380 00:25:31.279 --> 00:25:34.880 Jerome in the fourth and fifth centuries from the Greek 381 00:25:34.920 --> 00:25:38.279 and Hebrew into Latin. There had already been many, many 382 00:25:38.359 --> 00:25:42.119 Latin versions of Scripture known as the as the Old 383 00:25:42.200 --> 00:25:46.640 Latin versions, circulating in innumerable forms around the Mediterranean world. 384 00:25:46.960 --> 00:25:51.960 But Jerome is famous because he has to decide how 385 00:25:52.000 --> 00:25:56.839 do you translate Hebrew and Greek into Latin. Jerome was 386 00:25:56.880 --> 00:26:02.039 an extraordinary well educated person, a great class educator, a 387 00:26:02.079 --> 00:26:05.960 great writer, a great literary figure. And he believed that 388 00:26:06.039 --> 00:26:09.000 you should translate the Hebrew and the Greek into the 389 00:26:09.000 --> 00:26:14.039 best possible Latin, and so that the poetry of the 390 00:26:14.359 --> 00:26:17.880 Psalms or of the Hebrew Bible should be poetry in Latin, 391 00:26:18.200 --> 00:26:22.759 and that the writing of the New Testament should be 392 00:26:22.839 --> 00:26:27.160 brought into elegant Latin. Because in the classical world, the 393 00:26:27.319 --> 00:26:31.400 Christian writings were generally regarded as an inferior form of literature. 394 00:26:31.640 --> 00:26:33.799 But how do you do that? He said, of course, 395 00:26:33.880 --> 00:26:38.000 you can't go immediately with a literal translation from these 396 00:26:38.079 --> 00:26:41.200 languages into Latin. You have to do it where the 397 00:26:41.240 --> 00:26:46.359 sense of the original language is conveyed in the Latin form. 398 00:26:46.480 --> 00:26:49.799 So he creates society of sense for sense rather than 399 00:26:50.039 --> 00:26:52.920 a literal translation. Well, this is decisions that will go 400 00:26:53.000 --> 00:26:56.279 on for centuries and centuries afterwards. What is the correct 401 00:26:56.519 --> 00:27:01.319