Speaker 1: Welcome to the Derek louder Milk Show. At the Edge
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Speaker 1: Dereks louder Milk Show At the Edge of the Possibility.
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Speaker 1: Just finish your book Scientists, Pioneers, the East Society into practice,
Speaker 1: real results. Maybe you could start with scribe. How you
Speaker 1: got into studying the Mandela effect.
Speaker 2: Right well before it was called the Mandela Effect. I
Speaker 2: was studying something that I was seeking a name for
Speaker 2: because I was observing things appearing, disappearing, transforming and transporting
Speaker 2: and changes in time. And it occurred to me, this
Speaker 2: is something big that people are experiencing, just like back
Speaker 2: This is back in the nineteen nineties now when I
Speaker 2: was really noticing I need to create a website about it.
Speaker 2: I think I need to start talking to people about this.
Speaker 2: This is big and so the missing sock in the
Speaker 2: laundry was the classic one back in the nineties. Now
Speaker 2: for people that are listening and they can't imagine a
Speaker 2: time before social media. It was before social media, so
Speaker 2: it was kind of a totally different realm of websites,
Speaker 2: before AI, before large language models and everything. So back then,
Speaker 2: you know, in the nineties, I just started publishing sort
Speaker 2: of a newsletter that was that I would email out
Speaker 2: to people and people that were interested in the topic,
Speaker 2: because I was finding out, yes, people are interested in
Speaker 2: the topic, but they're kind of embarrassed to talk about
Speaker 2: it publicly, especially if things are upheering or moving around.
Speaker 2: They they figure that people would call them crazy. Back
Speaker 2: in the nineteen nineties, I have a physics degree from
Speaker 2: UC Berkeley, so I should put that out there too.
Speaker 2: Part of what convinced me that this is much more
Speaker 2: than just people confused who are misremembering things misplacing things
Speaker 2: is that it was clear to me that humans on
Speaker 2: a very macroscopic scale, in large wet biological conditions are
Speaker 2: capable of experiencing phenomena that we consider normal in the
Speaker 2: so called quantum realm. So with the combination of my
Speaker 2: own experiences, the new experiences that I'm starting to research
Speaker 2: and collect from people sharing them with me, and then
Speaker 2: I was publishing on a monthly basis and through my
Speaker 2: website and through the email newsletter. That's how it became
Speaker 2: really clear to me, this is something that's real. And
Speaker 2: then I found other researchers that were writing books about
Speaker 2: it too, such as the author PMH Atwater. I found
Speaker 2: her book Future Memory, and she had a chapter called
Speaker 2: reality shifts. So for me, it started and I was
Speaker 2: already calling these reality shifts. So I contacted her and
Speaker 2: found out that indeed, this is She considered it a
Speaker 2: real phenomenon too, and just something that may not be
Speaker 2: popular yet, but it's it's a growing trend. And then
Speaker 2: fast forward to the early two thousands and my website
Speaker 2: at that point had been running for a number of
Speaker 2: years and Fiona Broom was the person who popularized the
Speaker 2: term Mandela effect, and she did so after she went
Speaker 2: to a dragon Con conference and noticed a bunch of
Speaker 2: people remembered, Hey, didn't Nilsen Mandela die in prison? Like, yeah, well,
Speaker 2: then how is he becoming like the president of South
Speaker 2: Africa or whatever? How is he still alive? And there
Speaker 2: was a little bit of confusion going back and forth,
Speaker 2: like what is this? And at that point I had
Speaker 2: already written my first book about this called Reality Shifts,
Speaker 2: and in that book I'd covered both a dead cat
Speaker 2: of my roommate being back alive again and also the
Speaker 2: actor Larry Hagman being alive again. So I've been I've
Speaker 2: absolutely been covering this topic that we now call the
Speaker 2: Mandela effect for over twenty five years.
Speaker 1: And the man was the Mandela effect.
Speaker 2: That's right before it was a Mandela effect.
Speaker 1: Wow, what a privilege to have you on. Did you
Speaker 1: tie this in with your physics work when you were.
Speaker 2: Starting, Yes, it seemed clear to me that there was
Speaker 2: a connection. But only in my most recent book, The
Speaker 2: Mandela Effect in Its Society, am I starting to really
Speaker 2: lay it out in terms of here are some possible theories,
Speaker 2: and this is the way physicists talk about physics, and
Speaker 2: then side by side with a sort of a dictionary
Speaker 2: or a lexicon of typical language that experiencers use when
Speaker 2: they noticed that, for example, there's a flip flop, that
Speaker 2: the situation is one way, and then they look again
Speaker 2: and it's now it's the other way, and then it
Speaker 2: goes back to the first way, and they're paying more
Speaker 2: attention and it's still changing. That kind of thing is
Speaker 2: very confusing, but when you think about physics and recognize
Speaker 2: that everything can be seen to exist in a superposition
Speaker 2: of states, at least on the so called quantum realm,
Speaker 2: and I'm laughing because I don't think there is such
Speaker 2: a thing. I think everything responds this way when you
Speaker 2: engage with it in a certain manner. So we can
Speaker 2: absolutely observe superpositions of states in our daily lives, such
Speaker 2: as what is known as this so called flip flop,
Speaker 2: where you're looking at something and my neighbor's roof didn't
Speaker 2: have gutter guards, and then I'd look back and it did,
Speaker 2: And it was going back and forth every other day
Speaker 2: for about a week or so. It was just doing
Speaker 2: this repeatedly, to the point I could point it out
Speaker 2: to other members of my household. And that's a small
Speaker 2: scale Mandela effect. It's just my household, and I already
Speaker 2: knew from experience. If I talk to the neighbors, then
Speaker 2: the situation kind of locks in place a bit like
Speaker 2: if I talk to them, like did you get new
Speaker 2: leaf guards? They'll say, no, what leaf guards? And they'll
Speaker 2: be gone. And like I saw one, I saw them.
Speaker 2: They were there without any noise, no construction crew. It
Speaker 2: was just sort of there and then gone and then
Speaker 2: back and forth. So and in my book Reality Shifts,
Speaker 2: I show pictures re enacting situations where I'd filled a
Speaker 2: bird feeder and it was full, and then it was
Speaker 2: empty and it was like full. So people, when that happens,
Speaker 2: you might be scratching your head and wondering, am I
Speaker 2: imagining things. You can check with other friends, family members,
Speaker 2: colleagues find out if they also remember it. But what
Speaker 2: gets exciting about the Mandela effect is the scale, because
Speaker 2: now it's moving into a much larger arena of where
Speaker 2: thousands or maybe millions of people can experience a change,
Speaker 2: a collective alternate memory. That's how I define a Mandela effect,
Speaker 2: and we'd experience it together.
Speaker 1: Is that why you have that It's society part in
Speaker 1: the title of the book.
Speaker 2: Yes, because this is a topic where it can still
Speaker 2: be a personal Mandela effect, which I think that's just fine.
Speaker 2: I think for most people that is where it's arts.
Speaker 2: If you're fortunate enough to have other witnesses when something
Speaker 2: bizarre occurs, it's great, But we don't always have that
Speaker 2: many witnesses. It just feels so much better when you do,
Speaker 2: because then it's otherwise it can be con seriously confusing
Speaker 2: when you witness these sorts of things.
Speaker 1: We speaking of the house situation of one of the
Speaker 1: first Mendel effects that I personally experienced was from one
Speaker 1: winter to the next we had different windows on our house,
Speaker 1: and I used to put this plastic over the windows
Speaker 1: for the cold months to be extra insulation, and all
Speaker 1: of a sudden, there was like five windows with so
Speaker 1: our house is over one hundred years old, and there
Speaker 1: was five windows that had forty year old storm windows
Speaker 1: on them instead of one hundred year old storm windows.
Speaker 1: And I was like, that's so weird. So it was
Speaker 1: like they're still old, but they're much more modern than
Speaker 1: the you know, woodfreame storm windows.
Speaker 2: Oh yes, And these things could happen almost at any time.
Speaker 2: I have some silk window curtains that I had unfortunately
Speaker 2: shrunk when I washed them in hot water stupidly, I know,
Speaker 2: decades ago, and then like twenty years later, after feeling like, gee,
Speaker 2: this is so annoying, I wish that hadn't done nets.
Speaker 2: I love these curtains, but there they shrank, and then
Speaker 2: it just they they re they sort of unshrink, which
Speaker 2: is ridiculous. That never happens. I've never seen anything like
Speaker 2: that happen. And after twenty years and they all they
Speaker 2: unshrink exactly to the old size that they'd been, as
Speaker 2: if i'd never washed them in hot water to begin with.
Speaker 1: Huh.
Speaker 2: And it was evenly, so it's not like an uneven
Speaker 2: thing was And it was all at once, it was,
Speaker 2: and I was thinking the night before it happened, I
Speaker 2: was just super annoyed, like darn, I just wish that
Speaker 2: had never happened. And then the next morning the whole
Speaker 2: thing was drooping, like the curtains didn't fit on the
Speaker 2: hangar anymore, which annoyed me until I realized, oh my gosh,
Speaker 2: they're exactly They're right size again. So I need to
Speaker 2: rehang the curtains, but it's worth it.
Speaker 1: How much do you think the Mandela effect is tied,
Speaker 1: like you saying, oh, I wish it was different versus
Speaker 1: just a totally random and innocuous change.
Speaker 2: Perfect question. Yeah, there is something that we call the
Speaker 2: observer effect in physics, and there's a tremendously strong connection there.
Speaker 2: And you've heard the old adage that correlation does not
Speaker 2: prove in a causation. But when I interview people when
Speaker 2: they said when they share their first hand report of
Speaker 2: one of these reality shifts with me, I often ask
Speaker 2: them were you what were you thinking, what were you
Speaker 2: feeling when this event occurred? And it's very across the board,
Speaker 2: very consistent that if people one of the most common
Speaker 2: reality shifts is traveling farther in less time. So it's
Speaker 2: an experience where you're just like, oh my gosh, I'm late.
Speaker 2: It's going to take thirty minutes to get to the appointment,
Speaker 2: and I'm leaving and I've only got fifteen minutes to
Speaker 2: get there. A lot of people notice that if they
Speaker 2: just relax and kind of sing their favorite songs kind
Speaker 2: of instead of getting all tense about it, changed their
Speaker 2: mindset and just tell themselves, I'm always at the right
Speaker 2: place at the right time, or ask how good can
Speaker 2: it get my favorite setup question? Then they do show
Speaker 2: up amazingly on time, quite often, not all the time,
Speaker 2: but quite often exactly on time, which is impossible because
Speaker 2: they weren't speeding, they didn't break laws, they weren't running
Speaker 2: their red lights. And so yeah, it's absolutely clear to
Speaker 2: me from decades now of research and my own personal
Speaker 2: experience that yes, and it ties in with physics as well.
Speaker 2: The physics doesn't talk about the attitude of the observer.
Speaker 2: But truthfully, if you are in a very relaxed, grounded
Speaker 2: state and you're just expecting success, it's kind of like
Speaker 2: beginner's mindset, beginner's luck. Then you'll have things quite often
Speaker 2: turn out miraculously well against all odds and against what
Speaker 2: we know about what's possible. Like you can't drive that
Speaker 2: far in fifteen minutes, but people are doing it. They're covering,
Speaker 2: you know, hundreds of miles in a very short time.
Speaker 2: I'm wondering, was I daydreaming? What happened? How'd I get
Speaker 2: here so fast? It's a very common reality shift. So
Speaker 2: I'm mentioning it so people might realize, oh my gosh,
Speaker 2: I think I've done that. Yeah.
Speaker 1: Yeah. I was playing around with time bending and wanted
Speaker 1: to test out how far I could push it, and
Speaker 1: so I didn't look at my clock the whole day,
Speaker 1: but I had to be on time to pick up
Speaker 1: my kids from school, and I scheduled like so many
Speaker 1: things in the day just to see how it wou
Speaker 1: would go. And we like went across the river to Illinois,
Speaker 1: to another state. We did like a forty mile bike ride.
Speaker 1: We went out for lunch, we did we went shopping,
Speaker 1: we did all this stuff, and I was like, Oh
Speaker 1: my gosh, how's this going to work out. We arrived
Speaker 1: like right as the kids were walking out, Like we
Speaker 1: were walking up, but they were walking out, and it
Speaker 1: was like we were more on time than anybody else
Speaker 1: who had got there, you know, early or late. And
Speaker 1: I was like, Oh my gosh. But then I wanted
Speaker 1: to do that driving across country, like from out to
Speaker 1: Colorado from Missouri is like a twelve hour, fourteen hour drive.
Speaker 1: I was like, oh, this is great. I know how
Speaker 1: to do it now. And it didn't And I was like,
Speaker 1: didn't work. And I was like, ah, I wanted really
Speaker 1: wanted to skip ahead and arrive you know, skip Kansas basically.
Speaker 2: Right, no offense to Kansas.
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, So what what's what's your explanation for why
Speaker 1: it might work one day when I'm playing around and
Speaker 1: then another day when you know, I really wanted to
Speaker 1: shave some time of my cross country journey and didn't
Speaker 1: really do anything well.
Speaker 2: Ironically, detachment actually helps with the outcomes. So if you're
Speaker 2: sort of constantly watch checking or clock checking, like how
Speaker 2: are we doing shoot, we're still in Kansas in it.
Speaker 2: Then what's happening is you're kind of like it's tight
Speaker 2: into something called the quantum Zeno effect, where you're observing observing,
Speaker 2: observing observing, And if you're doing that, even if you're
Speaker 2: not doing it on purpose, then you're not in the
Speaker 2: proper day dream detached state. So for best success, ironically,
Speaker 2: you need to kind of let go of any like
Speaker 2: it's okay if I'm in Kansas and not even not
Speaker 2: even think about Kansas or how fast you're going or
Speaker 2: what time it is or where we are, just like
Speaker 2: it's I hate I don't want to say this, don't
Speaker 2: do this. This is not an advocation for people to
Speaker 2: do this. Do not daydream when you're driving, But if
Speaker 2: you happen to be daydreaming, you will have probably found
Speaker 2: that it was more successful. So it's.
Speaker 1: About any group situation, like a group of people in
Speaker 1: a car driving across like what if what if the
Speaker 1: driver is in the right state but everyone else is
Speaker 1: constantly checking how would interact well.
Speaker 2: To the degree that you guys are coherent entangled with
Speaker 2: each other, the coherence is like a flock of sheep
Speaker 2: or a herd of herd of sheep or a flock
Speaker 2: of birds. Sorry, yeah, so I get the animals straight.
Speaker 2: So if you are noticing this is not a very
Speaker 2: coherent group, then you might want to do the quantum
Speaker 2: sheep rooting thing, kind of like round people up, like, hey,
Speaker 2: let's everybody sing a song. We'll take turns. What's your
Speaker 2: favorite song? Like, I don't want to do that, but okay,
Speaker 2: we're just going to sing. So you want to get
Speaker 2: them into coherence and whatever that takes. Maybe they don't
Speaker 2: want to do it because they're busy arguing or whatever,
Speaker 2: but if they'll join in, you can start getting the
Speaker 2: coherence because they're getting breathing. And music's great because it
Speaker 2: can bring people into that state. They're probably not going
Speaker 2: to be chanting home. But if you had that kind
Speaker 2: of group, I mean, they wouldn't be uncoherent in the
Speaker 2: first place, probably, but if they are, then you can
Speaker 2: bring them back. So you want to get them into
Speaker 2: that coherent state. And then then as the group is
Speaker 2: like a flock or a herd, then when you the
Speaker 2: driver kind of get into that relaxed data state, but
Speaker 2: drive safely of course. So again operating heavy machinery, I'm
Speaker 2: not telling you to daydream. I'm just saying if you
Speaker 2: happen to be already daydreaming, and if you know you're safe,
Speaker 2: then it's okay. So but I can't advocate that.
Speaker 1: I remember you saying there was another common reality shift,
Speaker 1: which was the teleported to safety, and that actually happened
Speaker 1: to me on the drive to Colorado. I was moving
Speaker 1: out there and a deer jumped in front of my
Speaker 1: car and I was going to come through the windshield,
Speaker 1: and I was, oh my gosh, oh my god, this
Speaker 1: is the end. And I closed my eyes and it
Speaker 1: was like the deer was like in a different place,
Speaker 1: and I was farther down the road, and I was like,
Speaker 1: that's impossible.
Speaker 2: Right, well, blinking your eyes shut for this again. Don't
Speaker 2: do this if you're driving usually, But if you happen
Speaker 2: to do that, it's actually kind of a good thing
Speaker 2: because you're you're giving your you're giving reality permission to
Speaker 2: do something unexpected. So it's I noticed that that's true.
Speaker 2: If I'm looking for something that I need in the
Speaker 2: cupboard and I just shut the cupboard, walk away, come back,
Speaker 2: look again, shut the cupboard, walk away, come back, look again,
Speaker 2: it's I'm giving a privacy like okay, Spice, you can
Speaker 2: come back and I'm not gonna look. Okay, I'm not
Speaker 2: gonna look are either or whatever's missing? But that has
Speaker 2: worked for me sometimes and in this case, Yeah, teleported
Speaker 2: to safety is very common. I think it's because people
Speaker 2: need it. There's something that happens when you're in that moment.
Speaker 2: You probably felt it, which is all of you was
Speaker 2: in one harmonious accord. You know there's a brain in
Speaker 2: the cranium, of course, I think it's called the cephalic brain.
Speaker 2: Then there's the cardio heart brain, and now we know
Speaker 2: there's an enteric gut brain, and the gut runs the
Speaker 2: show when you just know, like I need to be safe,
Speaker 2: like this cannot happen, and that's like a gut feeling,
Speaker 2: and then your heart feels the same, your head feels
Speaker 2: the same, and then you just blink your eyes shut
Speaker 2: for a moment, and so you're not quantum Zeno effect
Speaker 2: locking it. Quantum Zeno effect means you're looking at something
Speaker 2: so often that you're locking it, possibly in the wrong reality.
Speaker 2: So you don't want to be looking. And that's what
Speaker 2: you did. You just didn't look, and then you look
Speaker 2: again and it's quite different. Yeah, so many people have
Speaker 2: experienced that, and it's against all odds, and I wouldn't
Speaker 2: have expected that would be a common thing, but I've
Speaker 2: come to find out it is. But there's a there's
Speaker 2: a very strong discouraging factor here where people don't feel
Speaker 2: safe talking about it publicly. So if I do talk
Speaker 2: about it at a talk, I'll get swarmed with people
Speaker 2: afterward whispering to me, this happened to me, but they
Speaker 2: don't want to go on and they don't want anyone
Speaker 2: to know. There's a stigma. More than other effects, I
Speaker 2: think this one is the one of the strongest statement
Speaker 2: attached to it because people know they're just certain no
Speaker 2: one's going to believe me. They'll think I'm really nuts.
Speaker 2: They'll think I can't judge distance. Like if someone heard
Speaker 2: your story, they'd be nodding, and then they'd be thinking
Speaker 2: he had no clue what was going on. He just
Speaker 2: thought it was in front of him and going to
Speaker 2: hit the windshield. He was a little You know, they're
Speaker 2: doing this for themselves to calm themselves so that everything
Speaker 2: fits back in their mental construct instead of if this
Speaker 2: really happened to Derek, then what does that mean for reality.
Speaker 2: You know, that's the hard question, but not everyone's going
Speaker 2: to go there.
Speaker 1: I did actually share that story as I was sort
Speaker 1: of reading that in your book, and a lot of
Speaker 1: people were like, you died in one timeline and then
Speaker 1: your consciousness went into another timeline where you survived, like
Speaker 1: you actually did die, So what is that a valid theory?
Speaker 2: Yes, and a physicist first came up with that. Originally,
Speaker 2: I'd cover this in my book about them mentull effect,
Speaker 2: and I describe a situation where people noticed that I
Speaker 2: had died around twenty sixteen, twenty seventeen of something that
Speaker 2: I was Actually it was a time when I actually
Speaker 2: almost did die. So I think that was fascinating and amazing,
Speaker 2: and I had just the right readership and audience to
Speaker 2: be able to confirm with them. As soon as i'd
Speaker 2: heard from somebody i'd never met before he's passed away now.
Speaker 2: Steve and Boucher from Canada wrote to me and said,
Speaker 2: you don't know me, but I'm so glad that you
Speaker 2: are here. And I see you posted something recently which
Speaker 2: surprised me because I remember that you died, so of
Speaker 2: course I wanted to follow up, like, oh, tell me
Speaker 2: more I'm not upset at all, Like now, I don't
Speaker 2: think you're crazy. I'd like to know when did you
Speaker 2: hear this? What had happened? How did you find out?
Speaker 2: What was the give me all the details without me
Speaker 2: telling him anything, and then everything he shared with me,
Speaker 2: I started noticing it's dovetailing with a time in my
Speaker 2: life that I almost did give up on life. I
Speaker 2: had pneumonia, I was feeling emotional betrayals, and I just
Speaker 2: felt like, what's the point. You know, people are do
Speaker 2: mean things whatever. I'm just going. But then I in
Speaker 2: my reality, what I remember is the meat that's still here,
Speaker 2: or the versions of plural or whatever, the versions of
Speaker 2: me that made it through I or Wei or whatever,
Speaker 2: decided that my life is bigger than just my own,
Speaker 2: and so what if I got betrayed, It matters more
Speaker 2: than it's not just selfish for me to be here
Speaker 2: until I get you know, I'm betrayed, but I'll deal
Speaker 2: with whatever this betrayal costs, the money, the time, the court, whatever, Like, Okay,
Speaker 2: I'll do it. It's worth it for other people, so I'll
Speaker 2: do this. And that was and then I just felt
Speaker 2: so much stronger. It's like I'll just do it whatever
Speaker 2: it is. It didn't feel overwhelming. The pneumonia in my
Speaker 2: lungs instantly started feeling like it was just a cold
Speaker 2: that was going to clear up. Even though I told
Speaker 2: my husband and my parents and my daughter's like, I
Speaker 2: think I'm dying. This is really bad, you know. But
Speaker 2: it turned around with that decision, and fascinatingly, people notice
Speaker 2: this and I write about it in my book because
Speaker 2: it's I think it's a very interesting report and who
Speaker 2: better to tell it than someone like myself who's been
Speaker 2: researching this. So I do believe people when they say
Speaker 2: I think maybe I died, and that is how people
Speaker 2: take it. That could be wide. There's a stigma about
Speaker 2: this one because it's almost embarrassing to say I'm a ghost,
Speaker 2: Like what are you saying here? That's like, what does
Speaker 2: this mean? And it's not a ghost, You're not a ghost.
Speaker 2: In my case, I'm the one who decided I'll do
Speaker 2: what it takes. I'll be brave and strong and stand
Speaker 2: up to all these indignities and the end, all the
Speaker 2: issues and problems and hardships and all my buttons getting
Speaker 2: pushed emotionally at once. Yeah, I'll deal with this because
Speaker 2: it's worth it for my value, what I'm doing for
Speaker 2: the world. It's not me that decides that. So that
Speaker 2: was for me what it took. But I think in
Speaker 2: that moment when you're about to hit a deer, you're
Speaker 2: not thinking any of that. You're just in that moment,
Speaker 2: and that as a very common experience, and I think
Speaker 2: I think reality wants us to wake up. I think
Speaker 2: consciousness is playing with us. You might say playing. That
Speaker 2: was pretty rough play, but it wants to get our attention.
Speaker 2: We are consciousness, we are reality, so we're getting our
Speaker 2: own attention. And to me, it looks like it's a
Speaker 2: time of great awakening. So I am noticing this happening
Speaker 2: much more, and now, more than twenty five years later,
Speaker 2: people are saying, go ahead, print my full name. It's okay.
Speaker 2: That was not what people said in the nineteen nineties.
Speaker 1: Well, I think you mentioned that for some people, you
Speaker 1: are a Mandela effect in the sense that your research
Speaker 1: and I don't remember coming across your research before this
Speaker 1: year either, So I was wondering, maybe you're a Mandela
Speaker 1: effect in my experience, like you and your body of work, Yes,
Speaker 1: arriving with this like decades of wonderful research. How how
Speaker 1: fortunate you know that's true?
Speaker 2: And at conferences for the Mandela Effect back when we
Speaker 2: were doing those, people were telling me I knew Delores
Speaker 2: Cannon's work, but I didn't know yours. And the other
Speaker 2: people said, oh, I need Cynthia su Larson, but I
Speaker 2: didn't know Delas Cannon. So it seemed like there was
Speaker 2: almost a bifurcation going on for some people, like either
Speaker 2: they knew Dolores or they knew me, but usually not both.
Speaker 2: That was weird, but it goes with the whole topic.
Speaker 1: By the way, Dolores Cannon grew up basically one block
Speaker 1: from where we live. What Yeah, And my wife is
Speaker 1: a QHHT practitioner and we had heard she grew up
Speaker 1: in Saint Louis and we're like, so we honed in
Speaker 1: on the address by muscle testing, okay, And it turns
Speaker 1: out because we found that she was in this general
Speaker 1: area and then we muscle tested and she was a
Speaker 1: block away, basically across the street from where our friends
Speaker 1: live right now, which is wild. But so so here's
Speaker 1: something interesting because my wife is she's right along where
Speaker 1: I am understanding all this research, and you know works
Speaker 1: in the quantum with her clients and all this stuff.
Speaker 1: But we had this incident that I shared with you
Speaker 1: about our daughter's yes jacket duplicating itself yes, and she
Speaker 1: is like that that doesn't count as metaphysical because it's
Speaker 1: probably just we brought home someone else's exact jacket because
Speaker 1: we picked it up because we thought it was our daughters,
Speaker 1: and now we have two covers, like a normal linear explanation.
Speaker 1: And I feel like that's a lot of people's tendency
Speaker 1: is to try to explain a weird effect by like
Speaker 1: a well years how it could have happened, you know,
Speaker 1: theoretically as possible X y Z. How often do you
Speaker 1: deal with that type of experience.
Speaker 2: Because of what you just said, people tend to assume
Speaker 2: like I must have just had another one or I
Speaker 2: picked up another one. Our mind wants to make it
Speaker 2: make sense, and so I don't get as many reports
Speaker 2: like this, but I do hear about them, and I
Speaker 2: heard about them in a presentation that was made in
Speaker 2: that first conference that we had for the Mandela Effect
Speaker 2: in November twenty nineteen in catchum Idaho, and also the
Speaker 2: next year in twenty twenty. One of those people that
Speaker 2: was presenting at that time was talking about just a
Speaker 2: duplicate items showing up and it had the same markings,
Speaker 2: and it was like it was like a tool of
Speaker 2: the trade, like an artist's tool. I think it was
Speaker 2: a ruler, and it's like, here's the exact same ruler.
Speaker 2: Now I have two of them. You know, this is
Speaker 2: really weird, and so I think there's again maybe a
Speaker 2: stigma on this one. So I'm not hearing as many
Speaker 2: reports of it. That may change now that you're mentioning it,
Speaker 2: you're talking about it. But I have a question for you.
Speaker 2: When you and your wife had that thought, did you
Speaker 2: then check it out, because that's that's a good thing
Speaker 2: to do. Go back to the place where you picked
Speaker 2: up the jacket and find out.
Speaker 1: Well, nobody can remember ever, like bringing an extra jacket home.
Speaker 1: You know, it's just like we went into the closet
Speaker 1: and there's two.
Speaker 2: Oh okay.
Speaker 1: So it's like there is a plausible explanation, but nobody
Speaker 1: it is. The nobody's fassing out to it, right, okay.
Speaker 2: So then the next step, if you want to is
Speaker 2: it could take it too where if you're able to
Speaker 2: still go back and it hasn't been too long say
Speaker 2: it has. Did anyone lose this jacket?
Speaker 1: And then you maybe we don't even know, like where
Speaker 1: we wouldn't have gotten it right, maybe the kid's school,
Speaker 1: but who knows, right, Yeah, that was And a friend
Speaker 1: of my head just shared yesterday where she was. She
Speaker 1: had her handful of marbles and her toddler was counting them,
Speaker 1: and she put one marble in and had them cut
Speaker 1: one and then two. It had him cut two and
Speaker 1: then three and then four, and then he counted five
Speaker 1: and she was like, no, that's four, try again. And
Speaker 1: then she looked and there was a fifth marble and
Speaker 1: it had just like ap peered in her hand.
Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah, that was not too common either. But I've
Speaker 2: had it happen to me, not with a marble, but
Speaker 2: like a half gallon of milk landing inside a closed refrigerator.
Speaker 2: I heard it land and I was just talking about
Speaker 2: how I wish I had more milk for all these
Speaker 2: kids who were here today, and then thump inside the fridge.
Speaker 1: It made a thunk.
Speaker 2: It made a thumb. But that often happens. So when
Speaker 2: I see things materialize, they usually drop from usually a
Speaker 2: couple inches, like two three inches. It's happened a few times,
Speaker 2: although sometimes like that time I kept dollar bill after
Speaker 2: dollar bill out of my wallet when I needed to
Speaker 2: give a cash tip to a waitress. I just kept
Speaker 2: shutting the wallet. So again, it's that privacy. Just give
Speaker 2: it a moment, stay open minded. We need another dollar.
Speaker 2: Let's see if there's another one here. Kids, because I
Speaker 2: was with my young daughters at the time. Kids are great,
Speaker 2: They're very open to the sort of thing, so they're like,
Speaker 2: it doesn't really occur to them that this should not
Speaker 2: be possible yet, So I'm open minded. They were open minded,
Speaker 2: and I just kept telling them, I think, is this
Speaker 2: enough for the tip? Because I told them we need,
Speaker 2: however many dollars, like six dollars or whatever. They said, no,
Speaker 2: let's look again. So we just kept opening this magic
Speaker 2: it wasn't a magic wallet, just my regular wallet. We'd
Speaker 2: open it again, pull out another dollar bill, like that's it,
Speaker 2: but let me shut it and we'll see, you know,
Speaker 2: should we look again? Like wow, wow, so much fun.
Speaker 2: You did this multiple times, multiple times, but with children
Speaker 2: who are just the best, because again, until they've been
Speaker 2: told to such things are impossible, they don't know that.
Speaker 2: The beginner's mind is strong, so you're able to see
Speaker 2: the true reality much more readily. And my daughters were
Speaker 2: telling me things like my toy moved by itself, and
Speaker 2: I believe them. They were not lying to me. But
Speaker 2: we're sort of an open household that way. So if
Speaker 2: that happened, then I was interested, which toy? What did
Speaker 2: it do? My toy horse? You know, it moved. It's
Speaker 2: like it moved its the main you know, the hair
Speaker 2: that's on it moved, Like, okay, which way did it move?
Speaker 2: I was just curious, like tell me more instead of
Speaker 2: like that's impossible.
Speaker 1: Yeah. I was in Sedona. I was leading a retreat
Speaker 1: last month actually, and we had a UFO viewing guide
Speaker 1: and she had all the high tech stuff and you know,
Speaker 1: on the way out to the desert, she stopped and
Speaker 1: did like a big foot who you know. She's like yeah,
Speaker 1: coming out and then one of the things that she
Speaker 1: did really well, and I guess this is what a
Speaker 1: good you know, UFO viewing guide would do. So would
Speaker 1: be like I saw some I saw some eyes in
Speaker 1: the bushes. She's like, I didn't see it, but I
Speaker 1: believe you and real affirming, you know that she believes
Speaker 1: like what you're experiencing and that it might be totally
Speaker 1: different from what the rest of the group is seeing.
Speaker 2: That's really true for that phenomenon, for CE five, UFO
Speaker 2: viewing and Bigfoot, that you have subjective experiences that are
Speaker 2: wildly divergent and they can all be true and that's
Speaker 2: part of the nature of reality too. And it's the
Speaker 2: heart of a paper that a co authored was one
Speaker 2: of the hippies who Saved Physics, doctor George Weisman. So
Speaker 2: we wrote about that. It's available on my website. You know,
Speaker 2: you can just grab the paper and read it if
Speaker 2: you want it like subjectivity Save Physics.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I haven't heard that before.
Speaker 2: Oh, it's a book. It's a great book by David Kaiser,
Speaker 2: and it features doctor Quantum from What the belief Do
Speaker 2: we know. That's my friend Fred ellen Wolf. It features
Speaker 2: some of the other folks as well. You know, the
Speaker 2: Elizabeth Rauscher was the lady that first started the group,
Speaker 2: and that was at UC Berkeley right where I'm right
Speaker 2: in Berkeley right now. So the group started there and
Speaker 2: some of the people, the original members are still in
Speaker 2: the Bay Area and they didn't want to just shut
Speaker 2: up and calculate, and they wanted to know what's the
Speaker 2: real nature of reality? What are we learning from quantum physics.
Speaker 2: They wanted to go deep into that mystery. And at
Speaker 2: that time when quantu physics was new, people were told
Speaker 2: shut up and calculate. We just need the bomb, we
Speaker 2: just need atomic energy, so don't think about these big questions.
Speaker 2: But these are the people that thought about the big questions.
Speaker 2: So yeah, Jack Sir Faddy was another one. He's still alive.
Speaker 2: This is quite a while ago, so Elizabeth Rosher has
Speaker 2: passed on, but Fred Allen Wolf is still with us.
Speaker 2: Jack Sir Faddy is still with us, and George Weisman
Speaker 2: and some other people too. Henry's Stapp He doesn't make
Speaker 2: a big deal out of being there, but he was
Speaker 2: there too. He's a wonderful author and physicist. And he
Speaker 2: worked with Wolfgang Pauley, the guy that knew Carl Jung
Speaker 2: and was credited with helping him coin the term synchronicity.
Speaker 2: So it's kind of a small world, you know, these
Speaker 2: people know each other and I know them, and they're
Speaker 2: very significant and the way that we now view reality
Speaker 2: at consciousness and quantum physics, I think we need to
Speaker 2: give a lot of credit to these early pioneers, would.
Speaker 1: It be possible for you to summarize your current view
Speaker 1: of how reality works?
Speaker 2: It's ever changing, and so I know that I'm not
Speaker 2: trying to be evasive, but we don't yet have a standard.
Speaker 2: People may assume it's quantum physics. There's got to be
Speaker 2: some agreed upon interpretation, like well, like when these hippies
Speaker 2: who say physics looked at it, then what did they
Speaker 2: agree on? No agreement yet. I had a little quantum
Speaker 2: paradigm evening at my house where I asked all these
Speaker 2: physicists to please come and give a ten minute synopsis
Speaker 2: of your favorite theory. And they were all very different.
Speaker 2: And these are the folks that were interested in, you know,
Speaker 2: what's really happening. So some people prefer to look at
Speaker 2: this idea of kind of this, you know, it's kind
Speaker 2: the pop the If you're familiar with watching what the
Speaker 2: belief do we know? Then they share the No, you
Speaker 2: don't know that movie. Oh it's worthwile, Oh my gosh,
Speaker 2: I got to see it. So it's been out for
Speaker 2: a while now. But it presents this idea of the
Speaker 2: multiverse and that there are all these different possibilities. And
Speaker 2: it also talks about how we are the observers that
Speaker 2: are basically influencing what we observe by the way that
Speaker 2: we observe it. So I think that movie kind of
Speaker 2: fell into sort of obscurity because it features Romtha and
Speaker 2: so some people aren't into channeled material. But if you
Speaker 2: just but if you don't like the channeled material, just
Speaker 2: focus on the physics of it. It's still really powerful and
Speaker 2: the biology in ourselves what makes us so special that
Speaker 2: we can observe things differently. So it's pretty cool. And
Speaker 2: So to answer your question, I like a lot of
Speaker 2: the theories, so many of them have I think que
Speaker 2: of physics is kind of like The Blind Men and
Speaker 2: the Elephant. So we can say it's just the Bomium
Speaker 2: interpretation where you're popping the wave function and you observe
Speaker 2: it and then you see what the way you're observing it,
Speaker 2: So that's the Copenhagen interpretation. Then there's a transactional interpretation
Speaker 2: saying that you can actually influence the past and we
Speaker 2: do it all the time. That's true, we do. So
Speaker 2: I love the transactional interpretation. I love the multiverse theory,
Speaker 2: which the first one of those was founded by Hugh
Speaker 2: Everett the third, and that's just saying that all these
Speaker 2: it's kind of like when we talked earlier, like this
Speaker 2: is the version of me that's alive, and some dead
Speaker 2: version of me actually hit the deer or died of pneumonia,
Speaker 2: what have you. Yeah, So I like a lot of these,
Speaker 2: and I like the holographic interpretation by David Bom that
Speaker 2: says that the way you look at things, it's like
Speaker 2: the whole is unfolded into the you know, the small,
Speaker 2: so you can unfold it and refold it. There's this
Speaker 2: sort of like it's like a gallon of paint that
Speaker 2: has a red drop in the white and as you
Speaker 2: stir it, it gets mixed up and then as you
Speaker 2: un yeah, you can unstir it, it comes back separate again.
Speaker 2: The David Bom holographic interpretation is like the little man
Speaker 2: that's mapped into the ear accuapressure. With the ear, you're
Speaker 2: fixing your whole body. So it's the awareness that the
Speaker 2: small is, you know, it contains everything within you. I
Speaker 2: think that's true. So I'm not being cagy or evasive.
Speaker 2: I'm just saying, yes, this is the trunk of the elephant.
Speaker 2: These are the feet, this is the legs, so's there's
Speaker 2: definitely a transactional component, there is a multiverse component, there
Speaker 2: is an observer component, and I think quantum physics is
Speaker 2: playing with us, and so we find a way to
Speaker 2: pull it all together. And so far we haven't really
Speaker 2: done that. Maybe it'll come with mathematics guiding us with
Speaker 2: something like that. I don't want to get too obtuse
Speaker 2: with the mathematics again, but there are some topographies and
Speaker 2: geometries that are indicative that the mathematics will be changing.
Speaker 2: I think with AI it will be playing with these mathematics,
Speaker 2: going into higher level dimension dimensionality and showing us Now
Speaker 2: it all comes together. You know, there's this higher dimensions
Speaker 2: bringing an orthogonal quality, which is the theory that Philip K.
Speaker 2: Dick had about what's He knew that reality was shifting.
Speaker 2: He noticed, you know, he gave a talk in France
Speaker 2: talking in the you know, decades ago about how you
Speaker 2: might just go one day to flip a light switch
Speaker 2: or something and it's in the different place, It's not
Speaker 2: where it was before. He was very cognizant that this
Speaker 2: is happening, and so I include those experiences in the
Speaker 2: book that I just wrote too, because Carl Jung also
Speaker 2: experienced it, and possibly others also were experiencing these things
Speaker 2: and we didn't have a term for it. So it's
Speaker 2: these are data points that are very valuable. So I
Speaker 2: like a lot of the theories, and I'm still looking
Speaker 2: for what's the holy grail of put it all together?
Speaker 2: May require higher mathematics to do that. I think we're
Speaker 2: going to. I think we may see it in our lifetime.
Speaker 2: Now that I'm not the biggest fan of AI because
Speaker 2: it has a lot of garbage, so you have to
Speaker 2: observe what its results are. But with these kind of tools,
Speaker 2: it can st I think it's good at mathematics. It
Speaker 2: can be, and so it can start showing us how
Speaker 2: are ways that we can put these things together? And
Speaker 2: then it's going to be up to us. Can we
Speaker 2: catch up and follow what it's saying? Can our brains
Speaker 2: this grasp this? Can we process that?
Speaker 1: Can you talk about I think there is an experiment retrocausality,
Speaker 1: experiment influencing backwards through time. Maybe there's more than one,
Speaker 1: but if you know that one, there have been several.
Speaker 2: Yeah, and usually they work with the most elegant experiment
Speaker 2: the double slit experiment. So that's a good one because
Speaker 2: that's the one if people are not familiar. Then there's
Speaker 2: one quantum particle like a photon being emitted, usually one
Speaker 2: at a time, that goes through this passageway of two
Speaker 2: slits in a screen and then it lands on the
Speaker 2: final screen. And so based on where the observational device
Speaker 2: or lack thereof occurs, you can basically you know what's
Speaker 2: going to happen with the photon emitter. And so what
Speaker 2: makes this so interesting with the you know observings, you
Speaker 2: know this through time and watching what happens. Can you
Speaker 2: kind of present or future observation effect what happened in
Speaker 2: the past. The answer appears to definitely be yes, and
Speaker 2: so that that can be measured by the way that
Speaker 2: these observational devices are placed with the future decision influencing
Speaker 2: where that went and then what happened, and so it
Speaker 2: gets kind of complicated pretty quickly, but that apparatus has
Speaker 2: been very useful for determining that. It also is extremely
Speaker 2: useful in showing that you can have two observers at
Speaker 2: the same place at the same time witnessing two different realities.
Speaker 2: And to me that was a breakthrough finding from twenty nineteen,
Speaker 2: which I think deserved to be on front page news
Speaker 2: because it ties in with what we're witnessing. You know,
Speaker 2: those of us that are like your wife working with QAHT.
Speaker 2: You know, any of us that are aware, very intimately
Speaker 2: aware that reality is completely malleable and that the way
Speaker 2: we're observing things is making a difference. Then we also
Speaker 2: usually start noticing that if you talk about something that
Speaker 2: happened in your childhood with your childhood friend or your
Speaker 2: sibling or your parents, they don't remember it the way
Speaker 2: you did, and they may have very detailed descriptions of
Speaker 2: what happened, and you might find out that's so different
Speaker 2: than when I remembered happening, that is actually normal, that
Speaker 2: actually happens a lot more than people realize, and both
Speaker 2: can be true, and that's where it gets trippy. And
Speaker 2: so all of this factors into this matter of the
Speaker 2: future affecting the past, that you can be affecting your
Speaker 2: own past in ways that are different than your siblings,
Speaker 2: than your childhood friend, than your parents are and you're
Speaker 2: therefore ending up with a different past than theirs. And
Speaker 2: this is today.
Speaker 1: I had a guest on my show a few years
Speaker 1: ago telling me about they had done some trauma healing
Speaker 1: work with a client and their client reported that they
Speaker 1: went back, so it was around like their family and stuff,
Speaker 1: and they went back and looked at family photo albums
Speaker 1: because they had sort of changed their perspective on the
Speaker 1: events that had happened, and they went and the photo
Speaker 1: album was different. It was like these common family events
Speaker 1: were photographed completely differently based on the work that they
Speaker 1: had done to resolve some of these issues. And that
Speaker 1: that was quite profound for me. Wow when I heard that.
Speaker 2: That's beautiful. Yeah, and it matches what some of the
Speaker 2: reporters who were early on covering the Mandela Effect were noticing.
Speaker 2: Some of them noticed family photos changing, and which is
Speaker 2: something that the reporters who were just trying to be
Speaker 2: objective covering the topic, like, okay, the Mandela Effect, why
Speaker 2: do people believe in this crazy thing? And then the
Speaker 2: next thing that they know, a family photo on the
Speaker 2: wall is different than it used to be, which was
Speaker 2: mind blowing. And the reporter covered that as well, saying
Speaker 2: like this just happened to me, So.
Speaker 1: Like traditional journalists, you mean, who started reporting yes on this?
Speaker 2: And so this is Mandel effect topic is going mainstream
Speaker 2: because it's showing up on game shows on TV, the
Speaker 2: New York Times crossword puzzle, regular journalists covering it and
Speaker 2: noticing this is happening to me. So it's increasingly coming
Speaker 2: into just you know, the public lexicon, although people may
Speaker 2: still attribute it to a different cause than I would.
Speaker 2: I notice. My definition would be collective alternate memory. And
Speaker 2: currently if you look it up on you know whatever, Wikipedia,
Speaker 2: you might find it says something like false miss you know,
Speaker 2: collective misremembering, false memories, collective false memories, all that sort
Speaker 2: of thing. I agree with the collective part, but I
Speaker 2: would not call them false memories. These are alternate memories.
Speaker 2: And you can tell the difference for yourself when it's
Speaker 2: your childhood or your family photo album and you know
Speaker 2: what those photos used to be. Though now that the
Speaker 2: only proof you could ever get of it is to
Speaker 2: draw a sketch of what you remember and ask other
Speaker 2: family members, okay, can you draw a picture what it
Speaker 2: used to be? Because you have to recreate it at
Speaker 2: this point, it's not although.
Speaker 1: We've seen the people that have like an old video
Speaker 1: camera and hold it up to the Berenstein Bears book
Speaker 1: and it shows how it used to be, and then
Speaker 1: they hold the book up and it shows Berenstain, but
Speaker 1: when in the viewfinder of the old camera shows Berenstein,
Speaker 1: like it allows you to look through to the other reality.
Speaker 2: Yeah, to me, that looks like just you know, filmmaking, creativity,
Speaker 2: just playfulness with the medium, because I've not yet ever
Speaker 2: seen any or heard anyone writing or sharing with me
Speaker 2: like I've got one of those devices. It works. Do
Speaker 2: you want to see it? Let's you know, I'll bring
Speaker 2: it to a conference, I'll show you. Nothing like that's happened.
Speaker 2: So until until it's something like that where like, oh
Speaker 2: my gosh, they really do have something. It really does this,
Speaker 2: I wouldn't really I put a lot of stock in that,
Speaker 2: And but it does kind of go along with the
Speaker 2: human tendency to think that there's some technological magic, like
Speaker 2: we'll have a device that will do this. People, you know,
Speaker 2: we love these toys and so like we're kind of
Speaker 2: enchanted with that idea, like, oh, looked, it's happening, but
Speaker 2: I haven't yet seen anything doing that.
Speaker 1: That would be Yeah, that would be really cool to
Speaker 1: be able to peer through. But then it's like, what
Speaker 1: where are we peering into like what version of reality?
Speaker 1: You know? Like, okay, it's giving us this result of
Speaker 1: this Mendela experience that we that we know, but are
Speaker 1: we actually looking into the parallel reality that we remember,
Speaker 1: you know, if we if we had some sort of
Speaker 1: looking device. So yeah, what gosh, how how how does
Speaker 1: it happen? Then that let's take the let's take the
Speaker 1: comment when the Nelson Mandela like, what is going on
Speaker 1: that that reality no longer exists where he died in prison?
Speaker 2: Yeah, well, let's go through it. Let's start with it
Speaker 2: was in nineteen eighty seven that some people remember quite
Speaker 2: clearly that he passed away. And there's a woman who's
Speaker 2: an author in a book Mandela effect friend or foe,
Speaker 2: Eileen Coltz, and I share this in nine book as well.
Speaker 2: These are things I cover, but you can also look
Speaker 2: up her book. She was a reporter that went to
Speaker 2: South Africa to cover She wanted to interview Nelson Mandela,
Speaker 2: so she went for that purpose. It was nineteen eighty seven,
Speaker 2: so she knows when it happened. And she got there
Speaker 2: and she couldn't interview him because he had died, So
Speaker 2: she knows that that happened. She was a reporter she'd been.
Speaker 2: I think she was a reporter in England, also a
Speaker 2: reporter I believe in the United States, So I think
Speaker 2: she was traveling from England when she went there. I
Speaker 2: can't ask her now because she's passed away, but she
Speaker 2: did write about it in her book, and I think
Speaker 2: that's a good starting point because that pinpoints at date
Speaker 2: and a timeframe and a place. Now if I subsequent
Speaker 2: to that, Obviously, if you look this up, you might say, like,
Speaker 2: wait a minute, I remember Nelson Mandela died like ten
Speaker 2: years ago or so, and he became president of South Africa.
Speaker 2: How could he do that if he was in prison. Well,
Speaker 2: what people share when like myself and others get together
Speaker 2: and talk about this, and this is true for people
Speaker 2: typically not in South Africa. I think Eileen could do
Speaker 2: that while she was there because she was from outside
Speaker 2: South Africa. So the people that are quantum zeno affect checking, checking, checking,
Speaker 2: it's just the observe, observe, absorb, kind of like your
Speaker 2: OCD about something if you live in South Africa. To them,
Speaker 2: he never died. He was just he was imprisoned on
Speaker 2: Robin's Island. But he didn't die there. He was released
Speaker 2: from prison, he regains stature in the community. Then he
Speaker 2: went on to run for president, became president, so on
Speaker 2: and so forth. But for outside of the country, I've
Speaker 2: received reports from lots of people that I respect and
Speaker 2: trust who say that they remember where they were when
Speaker 2: they heard about it when he died. They were in
Speaker 2: school and their teacher used it as a teaching moment
Speaker 2: and talked about what's going on in South Africa and
Speaker 2: apartheid and all that. So they remember all sorts of
Speaker 2: details about his widow because when he died, when he
Speaker 2: was incarcerated, his widow wanted rightfully to retain some of
Speaker 2: his estate and there was a whole big legal mess
Speaker 2: that happened when he died in prison. A lot of
Speaker 2: us remember that, but now it never happened. There was
Speaker 2: no legal mess, so anyway, so it's kind of like
Speaker 2: two reality paths in general, two big ones, but there
Speaker 2: could be lots of little details that are different for
Speaker 2: each independent observer based on where they were, Like, oh,
Speaker 2: my teacher told us about apartheid. I know when he died,
Speaker 2: and I remember that well. And that was someone that
Speaker 2: wrote to me from France. In America, I remember it vaguely,
Speaker 2: but I do remember. It wasn't the main thing I
Speaker 2: was paying attention to, but it was something like, yeah,
Speaker 2: I do remember that. So it was weird when he
Speaker 2: was alive again.
Speaker 1: And are there circumstances that would push our shared reality
Speaker 1: to sort of lock into the way it is now?
Speaker 2: Forces that would push it? Consciousness is the prime I mean,
Speaker 2: this whole phenomenon gets us to investigate who are we
Speaker 2: and what's reality? And so if you go that, if
Speaker 2: you go back that far, then I would agree with
Speaker 2: the physicists and the people who are currently saying consciousness
Speaker 2: is at the root of everything. So what we think
Speaker 2: is real is basically like a dream or a simulation,
Speaker 2: which are similar ways of saying the same thing. So
Speaker 2: if that's true, then what's pushing reality? We all are.
Speaker 2: We all have a causative effect on the reality that
Speaker 2: we're co creating, and to the degree that we can
Speaker 2: become self reflective and meta cognitive in other words, aware that,
Speaker 2: like I Cynthia am now talking with Derek, if I
Speaker 2: can take this view of and then I can start
Speaker 2: talking as Cynthia is now feeling inspired by these questions
Speaker 2: and challenged to try to express this in a clear way.
Speaker 2: So I'm noticing what Cynthia's thinking and feeling, but who
Speaker 2: is who am I? If I can do that, that's
Speaker 2: the metacognition. If I'm able to notice Cynthia's pretty grounded. Now,
Speaker 2: I'm pretty calm that that's not me noticing. It's like
Speaker 2: I'm looking down, I'm seeing myself. So to the degree
Speaker 2: we can do that, we are pushing reality. But I
Speaker 2: think what you're getting at, are there dark forces or
Speaker 2: something maybe? Or are we in a battle between good
Speaker 2: and evil? That's what people often go there with that.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I guess my question was broader in like what
Speaker 1: would let's say it could go either way, like we
Speaker 1: could remember and the history could reflect, oh he did
Speaker 1: die in prison, Like what would tip it over the
Speaker 1: over the edge one way or the other kind of thing.
Speaker 2: Yeah, for a lot of people who weren't right. Again,
Speaker 2: if you happen to be living in South Africa, then
Speaker 2: for you probably do to the quantum Zeno effect. In
Speaker 2: other words, hearing about Nelson Mandela constantly, is he still
Speaker 2: in jail? Yeah, he's still in jail. How's he holding up?
Speaker 2: Pretty good? I mean his bez just can be expected.
Speaker 2: He's healthy anyway, so they're doing that check check, check
Speaker 2: on so he never died for them. But if you're
Speaker 2: outside of that range and you're not checking on Nelson
Speaker 2: and Della every day, hearing about him almost every day,
Speaker 2: then he's kind of out of site, out of mind.
Speaker 2: It is like shutting the cupboard and me hoping, I
Speaker 2: hope the spice just decides to return. That would be
Speaker 2: so cool. So it's kind of like out of site,
Speaker 2: out of mind. Weird things can happen. So at a
Speaker 2: site out of mind, not checking every day, we just
Speaker 2: hear the news, Oh he passed away, and the shock
Speaker 2: like what why? What happened? How did he die? I
Speaker 2: guess old age if he was killed. Nobody's admitting it,
Speaker 2: like that's suspicious, Well what happened? Was he sick? You know?
Speaker 2: So we're asking questions, we're remembering it. So it's a
Speaker 2: different experience if you're in it or out of it.
Speaker 2: So pushing it. But the case that I think you're
Speaker 2: really getting at is what if you remember it both ways?
Speaker 2: That one's a little hard to remember it both ways.
Speaker 2: Although for someone like me that's outside of South Africa,
Speaker 2: I'm the only one it would have to be outside
Speaker 2: of South Africa to be able to remember it both ways,
Speaker 2: to remember I think he was okay in jail, he
Speaker 2: didn't did he die? And then I start questioning my
Speaker 2: own memory. That one wasn't a super strong one for
Speaker 2: me personally, but for me Larry Hagman the actor was
Speaker 2: much stronger. Or my roommate's cat that died and then
Speaker 2: was back alive again. So those were super clear, both
Speaker 2: of those, Like, oh, I know for sure Larry Hagman died.
Speaker 2: He went into surgery and died, you know, right afterward,
Speaker 2: Like he did not survive that operation. They kind of
Speaker 2: stitched them up in me. But now that never happened.
Speaker 2: That happened so long, I've been very few people remember
Speaker 2: that one, but I've met a few.
Speaker 1: Actually. I have a fun story because I sent your
Speaker 1: book to my dad for him to read. He's a
Speaker 1: scientist by training and career, and so I was like, oh,
Speaker 1: great scientists writing a book about this stuff. Who you know?
Speaker 1: I think there's like permission to consume weird material if
Speaker 1: you know a qualified scientist is there explaining it. And
Speaker 1: on my Instagram a video of someone showing it was
Speaker 1: one of the James Bond films where the girl like
Speaker 1: doesn't have braces, but the whole joke is, yeah, which
Speaker 1: one is that?
Speaker 2: Her name I think is Dolly in the character's name Dolly.
Speaker 1: In which film was it? Oh gosh, the other character's
Speaker 1: jaws gold It could be I'm Goldfinger.
Speaker 2: Maybe I don't remember exactly which one that.
Speaker 1: Was anyway, So okay, but the story is it pops
Speaker 1: up on my Instagram and it's like this person explaining
Speaker 1: the Mendel effect and showing a clip. Look here, she
Speaker 1: doesn't have braces in the film. Why would they conclude
Speaker 1: this scene which is like this big joke, Yes, and
Speaker 1: everyone remembers her having braces. And then I told my
Speaker 1: dad about it, and he's like, look, I just finished
Speaker 1: reading this paragraph, like just before you arrived. And I
Speaker 1: was like, whoa, that's synchronicity. But it was since we've
Speaker 1: since I sent him the book, we've had a few
Speaker 1: like cool synchronicity, Interesting synchronicities.
Speaker 2: Yeah, nice. Well to me, the synchronicity is a form
Speaker 2: of reality shift and Mandela effect. It's the way that
Speaker 2: consciousness is playing with reality, Like, guys, did you get that?
Speaker 2: Did you see that? So it feels like there's a
Speaker 2: level of our own consciousness, inviting us to level up,
Speaker 2: to pay more attention, not to be asleep at the wheel,
Speaker 2: but to recognize, like, what if we are creating quite
Speaker 2: a bit of what's going on around us, how might
Speaker 2: that play out well? Like a synchronicity obviously, and doctor
Speaker 2: Bernard Bittman I mentioned his work quite a bit in
Speaker 2: my book about the Mandela effect because he points out
Speaker 2: the synchronicity and meaningful coincidence happens when people are open
Speaker 2: minded and they're looking for what is the nature of reality?
Speaker 2: They're asking the meta questions, and they're also having that
Speaker 2: kind of metical cognition that I've been talking about. So
Speaker 2: these are the activating requirements. Once you've got these, then
Speaker 2: you're good to go for synchronicity and meaningful coincidence. And like,
Speaker 2: it's so much fun.
Speaker 1: It is fun, and we've adopted your how good can
Speaker 1: it get? Expression? It's beautiful. It's like such a simple
Speaker 1: thing to reset and open up possibility. I'm wondering because
Speaker 1: you mentioned I can't remember what it was, but like,
Speaker 1: what exercises do you use? Oh and part of where
Speaker 1: my question, let me let me ask this. We just
Speaker 1: started this school to teach a lot of the stuff
Speaker 1: to kits. Telekinesis, telepathy, weather, manipulation, you know, working with energy,
Speaker 1: all that stuff. And I don't know if you have
Speaker 1: any exercises that you think might be really fun specifically
Speaker 1: to do with kids.
Speaker 2: Well, kids are wonderful, so you're doing some good ones.
Speaker 2: You know. Psychokinesis is good. You can you work with
Speaker 2: them to make a little If you gets some plastic boxes.
Speaker 2: This is a fun thing I used to do as workshops.
Speaker 2: Is a little sealed plastic box and then inside on
Speaker 2: the lit turn it upside down, so the lid of
Speaker 2: the little plastic box it should be see through so
Speaker 2: you can see inside. And on the lid you can
Speaker 2: create like some clay or something and stick a pin
Speaker 2: on it and then balance on top of that head
Speaker 2: of the pointy end of the needle, create a little
Speaker 2: aluminum foil. It looks like a pin wheel. Yeah, and
Speaker 2: it can spin inside. They put the case back together
Speaker 2: and without using any heat or you don't need to
Speaker 2: put your hands over it, so it should be able
Speaker 2: to be operated just through intention. You could be able
Speaker 2: to get spinning motion going. And that's a fun thing
Speaker 2: to do with kids. They're also usually really good at
Speaker 2: spoon bending, so you could do a spoon bending party.
Speaker 2: All those things are fun. And then you mentioned the
Speaker 2: weather changing. That's a good one. Telepathy is good communicating
Speaker 2: with animals and really learning that with telepathy, everything is
Speaker 2: listening to you. For adults, that seems to be the
Speaker 2: confusion factor that they think that they're going to be. Now,
Speaker 2: I'm going to be listening to my pet and I
Speaker 2: need I feel like the thing that they the adults
Speaker 2: seem to not realize. And some kids even have gotten
Speaker 2: and culturated to think that nobody knows what you're thinking.
Speaker 2: That's so not true. And animals are especially good at
Speaker 2: reading our thoughts, and they're reading not just the brain
Speaker 2: waves from the remember the cephalic kid, but also from
Speaker 2: the cardiac brain and also from the enteric gut and brain.
Speaker 2: You know, like animals can smell fear, but they're really
Speaker 2: picking up the brain waves from the gut. And then
Speaker 2: heart Math Institute works with the heart coherence of course,
Speaker 2: so a lot of heart math stuff would be good
Speaker 2: for kids. But you know, in the indigenous games that
Speaker 2: indigenous kids used to play, they would do the psychic
Speaker 2: games like we do. Things like very similar to when
Speaker 2: you do rock and the paper and scissors, and you
Speaker 2: could do that behind your back. The Native American kids
Speaker 2: were doing games like that, but I think they were
Speaker 2: doing it with the animals and so forth. So it's
Speaker 2: kind of a telepathy where kids can play the game,
Speaker 2: but also what they really are working on is telepathically
Speaker 2: both you know, the person who's playing behind their back,
Speaker 2: they're blocking, concealing what they're doing, trying to because remember
Speaker 2: everybody's site gick and everybody is actually quite telepathic, much
Speaker 2: more receptive than we realize, much more psychokinetics too. So
Speaker 2: this kind of a game is a fun one, just
Speaker 2: a real time get some you know, fun experience, you know,
Speaker 2: seeing if you can guess is it going to You
Speaker 2: can just do it with rock paper scissors because people
Speaker 2: know that, but do you know, you can either do
Speaker 2: it so it's concealed, or try variations of it. Try
Speaker 2: letting the kids make up new variations, like how can
Speaker 2: you change this so it's more fun? Ask them, because
Speaker 2: they're still open minded, ask them to create new games
Speaker 2: that invite everybody they're working with to expand their abilities,
Speaker 2: because it's all about expanding an existing capability set. And
Speaker 2: we've already got these abilities, most of them are lying
Speaker 2: somewhat dormant or we've actively suppressed them in some way.
Speaker 2: And then definitely bring in many of the contact modalities
Speaker 2: of opening up that kind of you know, unblocking the
Speaker 2: left brain. And you can do it by things like chanting, dancing, drumming,
Speaker 2: the things that Shaman's have been doing. Music is very good.
Speaker 2: There's a whole book about contact modalities that's all about
Speaker 2: opening that up and it was co authored by Grant
Speaker 2: Cameron and Desta Barnaby and it's called Contact Modalities, and
Speaker 2: a bunch of those might be good for kids. It
Speaker 2: just goes through dozens, if not hundreds of these ways
Speaker 2: to basically break reopen the giving oneself permission to do
Speaker 2: all this. And you might think kids don't need it,
Speaker 2: but they actually do. It's amazing how inculturated they get
Speaker 2: by age five even or let alone age seven. So
Speaker 2: it's good to help them just and just give them
Speaker 2: like a different exercise each day, like today we'll be chanting,
Speaker 2: today we'll be drumming, you know, and that's kind of fun,
Speaker 2: and let them know the goal is to open up
Speaker 2: your dream space, your day dream space, and when they
Speaker 2: know that that's what the doing it for that purpose,
Speaker 2: then they can try different things and find what works
Speaker 2: for them because intuition is so important. And kids are
Speaker 2: great at dowsing, you know, working with energy rods, and
Speaker 2: then they can expand or can track their energy field
Speaker 2: and see that happen in real time just with regular
Speaker 2: coat hangers. It doesn't need to be anything expensive. And
Speaker 2: kids are they have so much fun with all this
Speaker 2: and then you can say like, okay, now expand your
Speaker 2: field and then the friend can see like whoa, look
Speaker 2: where it is now? So fun stuff like that. There's
Speaker 2: so many more things you can do, so much. Kids
Speaker 2: are the future for sure.
Speaker 1: My dad used to tell this story about his grandfather
Speaker 1: who was a dowser and like, people would you know,
Speaker 1: bring him in to find out where to dig for
Speaker 1: water or to find out, you know, where to put
Speaker 1: their house or stuff like that. So you always told
Speaker 1: that story. And I was like, we should get a
Speaker 1: set of dowsing rods, and so yeah, order this set
Speaker 1: of the copper l shaped dowsing rods and handed him
Speaker 1: to him. Yeah exactly, the oh the ones that can
Speaker 1: swing freely. Yeah, And I was like, why don't you
Speaker 1: go out in your front yard and see if you
Speaker 1: can dowse for the the holes, like the pipes, the
Speaker 1: water pipes, and they would cross when he went like
Speaker 1: across the water mean, and he's like, I can do it.
Speaker 2: That's amazing.
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's so. It's so funny. I bring my dad
Speaker 1: up because he's like both a skeptic and a willing
Speaker 1: believer at the same time, which I think a lot
Speaker 1: of people sort of fall into that, right camp.
Speaker 2: I think that's a good place to be. It's it's
Speaker 2: not so far. Your mind's not so open that your
Speaker 2: brains are falling out, but it's open enough. Like you
Speaker 2: got enough skepticism, like, well, let's see, I need a
Speaker 2: little proof here. I need some kind of confirmation, validation, verification.
Speaker 2: So that's cool, it's cool that that happened.
Speaker 1: Yeah. I you know myself, I was trained as a
Speaker 1: scientist as well, went to grad school, and the way
Speaker 1: I sort of look at it, it was like really good
Speaker 1: for me to understand how science works these days, like
Speaker 1: what is the inner workings of the machine, so to speak,
Speaker 1: and designing good experiments and inquiry and stuff like that. Yeah,
Speaker 1: but I feel like there's the fundamental problem in science
Speaker 1: is that we don't account for the participation of the
Speaker 1: scientists and the you know, the fact that we're trying
Speaker 1: to isolate the thing that we're studying from the rest
Speaker 1: of the world around it, and isolation is sort of impossible. Yes,
Speaker 1: So do you think science like how we're doing science?
Speaker 1: Is it is kind of Is it actually accurate? Is
Speaker 1: it worth doing it the way that we do it?
Speaker 2: I love the work speaking of scientists that I greatly
Speaker 2: respect and admire, Doctor Dean Rayden is one of those,
Speaker 2: and his new book About Real Magic actually asks that
Speaker 2: question because if the direction of the research he's doing
Speaker 2: and is reporting on is true, which it seems to be,
Speaker 2: it shows that individuals can and do effect the very
Speaker 2: experiment that they're in. Oh, he'll do these kinds of
Speaker 2: experiments such as working with an interferometer. I was actually
Speaker 2: fortunate to be in that experiment that he did just
Speaker 2: the other year, and he constructed interferometers that he sent
Speaker 2: to fifty people, and we were just told as members
Speaker 2: of the group, we were just told that what we'd
Speaker 2: be doing is attempting to influence something that's the most
Speaker 2: delicate piece of instrumentation known to scientists right now that
Speaker 2: you can kind of mass produce, you know, like print,
Speaker 2: you know, print out the little device and ship it out.
Speaker 2: Still kind of expensive. My little device arrived and it
Speaker 2: was wrapped in metallic wire. The whole thing was shiny,
Speaker 2: So I knew that this one has a Farita cage. Cool,
Speaker 2: so you know, no problem. So I was still able
Speaker 2: to influence it. I knew I could. What I didn't
Speaker 2: know is that what Dean Raydan was really doing is
Speaker 2: looking at what he calls magicians and meditators. And so
Speaker 2: the people that were just meditating, and they're good at that,
Speaker 2: they've been doing it for decades, nothing wrong with that,
Speaker 2: but they're not practicing influencing reality like what you're doing
Speaker 2: with your kids, like changing the weather and stuff. Versus
Speaker 2: the magicians would be like the kids that come through
Speaker 2: your program. The magicians are I mean, both groups could
Speaker 2: have some effect, but the magicians had a phenomenal, profound
Speaker 2: effect on influencing something, even inside the verity cage that
Speaker 2: you know. According to materialist rational science, a subjective observer
Speaker 2: cannot do that. You know, an observer you're just watching it.
Speaker 2: You can't influence a device without touching it. Arth and
Speaker 2: if you touch that interferometer, it goes squawk, you know,
Speaker 2: the whole thing. It'll pick up even if a very
Speaker 2: large car drives by the house, so you can't affect
Speaker 2: with it or mess with it. And so to's changed.
Speaker 2: The way it's responding to the pattern of light is
Speaker 2: such a delicate process that the fact that we're able
Speaker 2: to do that clearly indicate something's going on. So the science,
Speaker 2: I think, and then what okay, where I'm going with
Speaker 2: all this deemed He does these experiments, he's reporting on them,
Speaker 2: he's brilliant, and then he points out, okay, if this
Speaker 2: is really true, like I'm seeing that it must be,
Speaker 2: then this is kind of the end of science as
Speaker 2: we know it. It's exactly what you're getting at because
Speaker 2: our old assumptions that you can do these experiments and
Speaker 2: the experimenter themselves is not influencing it. Like, we have
Speaker 2: to throw that out as well, you know, because everybody
Speaker 2: that's involved influences and that's where science is going. But
Speaker 2: we don't yet have the foundation of how does that work.
Speaker 2: We have the experimental process that you have a hypothesis
Speaker 2: and you know, you set up your experimental apparatus and
Speaker 2: then you get your results and you can objectively observe it.
Speaker 2: But what if you can't objectively observe it? What if
Speaker 2: objectivity is gone? And I think that one's been gone
Speaker 2: for a long time, ever since quantum physics came in.
Speaker 2: But until now, we haven't really been bold enough to
Speaker 2: start calling for we need a new science here, you know,
Speaker 2: we need a new math of things like that amplituhedron
Speaker 2: that I was referring to earlier. I didn't really say it,
Speaker 2: but that's one kind of mathematic mathematics that might help
Speaker 2: us start thinking in a new way. And we need
Speaker 2: a new process too. How do we conduct this kind
Speaker 2: of science? If we know that we're having this effect,
Speaker 2: then how do we move forward? Now?
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's so interesting, you know. I was my research
Speaker 1: was in extremophiles in Yellowstone and I did this big survey,
Speaker 1: went out to all these different hot springs, boiling acid
Speaker 1: hot springs to look for viruses, and largely Archaia single
Speaker 1: cell organisms that live in extreme environments are usually Archaia
Speaker 1: instead of bacteria. And I discovered a couple of new
Speaker 1: species and it was really exciting. And now I sort
Speaker 1: of wonder if because there was there was. I did
Speaker 1: have a wonderful Eureka moment as a scientist where I
Speaker 1: like saw for the first time in my electron microscope
Speaker 1: this thing that I knew for sure was my virus.
Speaker 1: And because it didn't look like anything I had ever
Speaker 1: seen and it was definitely biological, I was like, Oh,
Speaker 1: this is it. Eureka. I almost wonder if I manifested
Speaker 1: that now. Yeah, because it was such a cool you know,
Speaker 1: that's like kind of why I went back to grad
Speaker 1: school because I wanted to have an experience like that.
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, totally. I think we manifest each other sometimes,
Speaker 2: like I'm new for you. I met a physicist who
Speaker 2: I attended. He was in a movie called Particle Fever.
Speaker 2: But he's not a particle physicist. He's a he's the
Speaker 2: kind of physics I don't really particle physicist and no
Speaker 2: offense to them, but they're not my big thing, much
Speaker 2: more into the theoretical physics. So he's a theoretical physicist.
Speaker 2: And I saw his name plate up on the front.
Speaker 2: You know, there was going to be a question and
Speaker 2: answer after the movie, and there's his name, Yes, Nori Numura,
Speaker 2: and I'm thinking this is great He's not in my
Speaker 2: book Quantum Jemps because he didn't exist then. But I
Speaker 2: always show illustrations from his papers and talk about his ideas. Like,
Speaker 2: you know, if we see half of a chair that's
Speaker 2: obscured behind a wall, he has a dire picture that
Speaker 2: shows this. We know that the rest of the chair
Speaker 2: must be there. It's because it's entangled. It's coherent with
Speaker 2: the half we do see. We don't expect a big
Speaker 2: smear of probability waves on the other half of that chair.
Speaker 2: So it's a perfect illustration. I use it all the time.
Speaker 2: And so I'm just seeing his name up there, I'm thinking,
Speaker 2: oh my gosh, he's there. So when I met him,
Speaker 2: I said I wanted he saw. I just lit up
Speaker 2: like like hey, which is great for him because there
Speaker 2: he is surrounded by four partner gulfs. All right, no offense.
Speaker 2: He looked like he'd been drinking a little bit too,
Speaker 2: which is understandable. Again, no offense to the particle physicists.
Speaker 2: But yeah, I love the theoretical But he said when
Speaker 2: I told him, because we had tea later and I'm
Speaker 2: talking about what I'm interested in, and I told him,
Speaker 2: you know, it don't take this the wrong way. But
Speaker 2: you didn't used to exist. And I know for sure
Speaker 2: that I would have known about you because I did
Speaker 2: a lot of research in like Google scholar looking for articles.
Speaker 2: Your name never showed up. Now you're ubiquitous. You co
Speaker 2: authored papers with Alan Gooth who won the million dollar
Speaker 2: prize and everything, and yes, scenarios. It's just like yeah, yeah, yeah,
Speaker 2: And I was like what I mean, because he really
Speaker 2: gets it. He's like, yeah, of course I didn't exist, Yeah,
Speaker 2: but now I am. And that's how I feel when
Speaker 2: people tell me that too. But I was prepared to,
Speaker 2: you know, I wanted to be there for emotional support.
Speaker 2: He didn't need any emotional support, so yeah, yeah, yeah,
Speaker 2: like and I was like, what what, He's really sharp.
Speaker 2: So a lot of our theoretical physicists know about this increasingly,
Speaker 2: and so it's really I'm excited about a lot of
Speaker 2: the work that's being done. And you know, there's a
Speaker 2: book that I just got by Federico Fagen, the inventor
Speaker 2: of the microprocessor, and it's what's in I think it's
Speaker 2: called Inseparable or something, and it's basically just laying out
Speaker 2: the foundation of where we are now, Like in physics, mathematics,
Speaker 2: and then he's going because he's an experiencer of conscious
Speaker 2: phenomenon like we are. I haven't read the part yet
Speaker 2: where he gets there, but he's he's just a delight
Speaker 2: to see when I see his interviews recently on the
Speaker 2: Essentia Foundation, for example, talking with Hans just brilliant because
Speaker 2: he likes the same philosophy I like, which is like
Speaker 2: Gottfriedvillehilm lepe Needs, who's one of the inventors are calculus,
Speaker 2: and he's a process philosopher and an optimist. So totally
Speaker 2: I see him as the father of consciousness where I
Speaker 2: see consciousness going like the metacognition I've been talking about today,
Speaker 2: and so does Federico Fijien. So I'm thinking, Wow, he's
Speaker 2: on the right track so very much. I'm reading his
Speaker 2: book slowly because I treasure it. Sometimes I go really
Speaker 2: slowly when I love a book, sometimes really fast. But
Speaker 2: I read different ways different times. But that's an excellent
Speaker 2: book for anybody interested in that.
Speaker 1: Yeah, you've mentioned quite a few books and movies. This
Speaker 1: is it's wonderful. Where is your are you doing any
Speaker 1: research or where is your work headed right now?
Speaker 2: Not doing research? Per se. But I'm interested in this
Speaker 2: topic of the metacognition, the levels of conscious agency, like
Speaker 2: who's pushing reality when there's like a tug of war
Speaker 2: between two realities? What's going on there? That's my fascination,
Speaker 2: and I recognize that we do need the new mathematics
Speaker 2: for that. I need to finish reading Federico Fagin's book. Obviously,
Speaker 2: I'm staying on track with most of the most every
Speaker 2: single interview that comes out of the Essentia Foundation. They're brilliant,
Speaker 2: And I'm conducting in person events sometimes in Crestone. I'll
Speaker 2: be doing one in May of this year, and then
Speaker 2: we're planning probably to do another one in August of
Speaker 2: this year, so people get a couple chances to talk
Speaker 2: in person. I think there's something special about being in
Speaker 2: person together and like you like to do exploring around
Speaker 2: the place if you have time, like you're in a
Speaker 2: special place, check it out. And I was telling you
Speaker 2: about Crestone, and you told me some things I didn't
Speaker 2: know about, some amazing local things that people could do.
Speaker 1: Do you want to you want to give the full
Speaker 1: details of that now that we're talking about.
Speaker 2: Sure, that's going to be I think the dates are
Speaker 2: May twenty second to the twenty fourth, and it's in Crestone, Colorado.
Speaker 2: If you want to find out more my website today,
Speaker 2: that's the one that you've got the link to Reality
Speaker 2: Shifters dot com and if you go to the events page,
Speaker 2: it'll show you the details and the link, which is
Speaker 2: through a different website, star Works USA dot com, and
Speaker 2: that's Paula Harris's website. She's also the facilitator and collaborator
Speaker 2: that's putting it together. And then doctor Aaron Judkins. He's
Speaker 2: a very he's like an Indiana Jones in real life
Speaker 2: archaeologist checking out amazing sites such as ge Beckley Tepi.
Speaker 2: And also he did a documentary on Noah's Arc which
Speaker 2: I thought was really great. So he's doing that kind
Speaker 2: of work and he'll have things to talk about. We'll
Speaker 2: be talking about UFOs and conciousness, you know, and ancient archaeology.
Speaker 2: So it's kind of like bringing the past together with
Speaker 2: the future. Where are we going, where are we headed?
Speaker 2: And what have we not been told about what's really
Speaker 2: going on? So it'll be fun and it's fun to
Speaker 2: do this in person. It's fun to be out under
Speaker 2: the stars and actually see the stars because it's crestone's
Speaker 2: tiny and there's no almost no light pollution, and even
Speaker 2: if it's cloudy, no problem. We do that thing you're
Speaker 2: teaching your kids. We just clear the sky above us.
Speaker 2: So it's a big circle, clear space. That pretty much
Speaker 2: always happens. And then last time we saw really big
Speaker 2: spaceship or craft that was over the mountains where there
Speaker 2: was thunder and lightning. It looked like the scene from
Speaker 2: that movie, Those Encounters of the Third Kind. So it's
Speaker 2: pretty amazing and fun and so much love and it's
Speaker 2: just a wonderful experience.
Speaker 1: There's always a lot of activity in that area. Yes, yeah,
Speaker 1: I've camped out on the sand dunes a couple of
Speaker 1: times and it's wow, amazing. That should be so fun, yes,
Speaker 1: and it.
Speaker 2: Makes it fun when you're with other people. You think,
Speaker 2: compare notes and really recognize the difference of experience that
Speaker 2: people are having when they're sitting right next to you,
Speaker 2: because you know that is what happens. But some of
Speaker 2: it will be shared as well. So to the degree
Speaker 2: we've become coherent, you know, like one flock or one
Speaker 2: heard of shared consciousness, then we can have a shared
Speaker 2: experience and when you know you're doing that, that makes
Speaker 2: it really fun.
Speaker 1: And I think I read an article recently that you
Speaker 1: were talking about the Hopie prophecy as well, which is
Speaker 1: like the bifurcating timelines experience. And you know, I had
Speaker 1: basically arrived at the conclusion. So there's a Hopy prophecy
Speaker 1: of the Blue Star Kachina and the Red Star Katina,
Speaker 1: and I was doing remote viewing and telepathic contact with
Speaker 1: three I atlas as it was approaching, and I'm pretty
Speaker 1: sure that's the Blue Star Katina. Is that object which
Speaker 1: indicates that we're in the bridge time between the fourth
Speaker 1: and fifth worlds?
Speaker 2: Yeah, we totally are in the bridge time, that's for sure. Yeah,
Speaker 2: I'm feeling it. And yeah, if you're referencing, I wrote
Speaker 2: an article about this, and then my most recent YouTube
Speaker 2: video and substack article I go into detail about grandfather Martin.
Speaker 2: He's a hopey elder who's passed away now, but he
Speaker 2: had a video and in that video I saw three
Speaker 2: Mandela effects, one with the Hope prophecy rock well two
Speaker 2: of them concerning that. They all kind of concerned that.
Speaker 2: Actually it's pretty amazing. It's just like, how is this changing?
Speaker 2: You expect the hopey prophecy rock to not be changing,
Speaker 2: but the Bible changes hopey prophecy rock. He points out
Speaker 2: in the video it used to have a third line
Speaker 2: that's gone, and he says, this is some kind of magic. Yeah,
Speaker 2: he says that in his video. And then so that's
Speaker 2: him admitting that this. And to me, that's really a
Speaker 2: cool indicator. Because I read these Mandela effects. That is
Speaker 2: an indication that, like, like you said, we're in the
Speaker 2: bridge time. In the bridge time, then I would expect
Speaker 2: the third line to be, like, don't even fixate on that.
Speaker 2: Look just at where you guys are going. Which line
Speaker 2: are you on? Are you on the line the lower
Speaker 2: line that goes to the fifth world or on that
Speaker 2: upper line? Then? Ok? Then Andela effect number two, he says,
Speaker 2: these beings have two hearts, these world leaders the first
Speaker 2: three on the upper line. That feels He didn't say
Speaker 2: what it means to him, But if I saw that
Speaker 2: and pointed it out, I'd be saying, do you notice
Speaker 2: there's a duplicitous nature for the world leaders on the
Speaker 2: top line. They're leading people in a duplicitous way, you know,
Speaker 2: I'd say, like, watch out for someone's like two faces,
Speaker 2: two hearts.
Speaker 1: You know, there's the top line is like third dimension linear.
Speaker 2: Yeah, that fizzles out, that's a dead end, doesn't really
Speaker 2: go anywhere. But the bottom line is the line that
Speaker 2: continues on. And even an old person with a little
Speaker 2: walking stick makes it just fine. So it's not you
Speaker 2: don't have to be survival of the fittest mindset that
Speaker 2: it's more like just having your heart open to each
Speaker 2: other and your crown chakra open. So those are pretty
Speaker 2: big changes. And then the mind blower, the third one,
Speaker 2: there's a second hope prophecy Rock, and he shows it
Speaker 2: and he talks about for those of us who make
Speaker 2: it to the fifth world. Now that's showing up. So
Speaker 2: the third line, the third line's gone, and a second
Speaker 2: hope prophecy Rock has appeared, showing us the new technology
Speaker 2: to heal ourselves and the earth and the water when
Speaker 2: we enter the fifth world. So that is huge. And
Speaker 2: then I'm getting reports that I share in my substack
Speaker 2: and on the video about people showing up at a
Speaker 2: crowded hospital where they have to they just drop their
Speaker 2: husband off and they have to go park. It's going
Speaker 2: to take a while because there's so many people there,
Speaker 2: all the cars are there. Then they come into the
Speaker 2: er and there's nobody in there, and the husband's already
Speaker 2: been admitted to a room, and all the other rooms
Speaker 2: are empty. But every single staff member they talk to says, boy,
Speaker 2: how long did you have to wait? It is so
Speaker 2: crowded tonight? My houseban was already in there. I just
Speaker 2: I just parked and came in like no time at all.
Speaker 2: But everybody kept saying that. And the person wrote to
Speaker 2: me and said, does this mean that this is what
Speaker 2: it's going to feel like when we're in that bridge,
Speaker 2: like you're calling it the bridge time? Yes, indeed the
Speaker 2: bridge time. Both worlds are here, Yes, that is what
Speaker 2: it feels like.
Speaker 1: That story makes me wonder about the experiences of the nurses,
Speaker 1: like clearly because cause I read your substacks, so they're
Speaker 1: not seeing the crowds of people, but they are talking
Speaker 1: to the nurses who are seeing the crowds of people.
Speaker 1: So it's like the nurses are in both yes experiences
Speaker 1: at the same time. But you're the person who wrote
Speaker 1: in was was in one discreet experience?
Speaker 2: Yes?
Speaker 1: So what do you what do you think is the
Speaker 1: experience of the actual nurses.
Speaker 2: It depends is a case by case. I would expect
Speaker 2: some of them might be aware that it's like, yeah,
Speaker 2: it was busy, but it wasn't when they came into
Speaker 2: the er. They might be For me, that's what a
Speaker 2: Mandela effect feels like. When it's one that I've experienced.
Speaker 2: It's like, sometimes I do remember something both ways and
Speaker 2: it's the weirdest feeling. And so if a person's that's
Speaker 2: someone like me that's open to meta cognition, which it's like,
Speaker 2: if you're familiar with Gott Freed Vilhelm, life needs this
Speaker 2: work about the monads and about you just observe at
Speaker 2: a higher level of conscious agency. I'm now using the
Speaker 2: term that we would use conscious agency. And this is
Speaker 2: where all of this new science has to go. We
Speaker 2: have to be aware of who are we and at
Speaker 2: what level are we observing this right now? So when
Speaker 2: we ask a question we want to live the answer to,
Speaker 2: like if those nurses are asking my favorite question, how
Speaker 2: good can it get, They're going to be in a
Speaker 2: meta cognitive state automatically. So those are the ones that
Speaker 2: are more likely to notice, Yeah, I think I saw
Speaker 2: it crowded and uncrowded tonight they're going to be open
Speaker 2: to that because they can be walking that way and
Speaker 2: at some point they may just stay with I'm going
Speaker 2: to stay with the uncrowded, you know, you know, where
Speaker 2: everything's just groovy and it's not so repressive and stressed out.
Speaker 1: Is the monad? That word you just mentioned, is that
Speaker 1: like the higher self? For what is the mona?
Speaker 2: End? That we can spend hours talking about that, So
Speaker 2: I didn't mean to unfortunately bring it up. I would
Speaker 2: love to see the work of life Needs explored a
Speaker 2: lot more fully and brought current into this modern age
Speaker 2: of physics. Life Needs would love what we're seeing right now,
Speaker 2: you know, with the subjectivity being recognized in science. So
Speaker 2: his idea of monad would be like, what's behind what's
Speaker 2: creating all this? So a monad is like the operational
Speaker 2: aspect of consciousness itself, as it's having an, you know,
Speaker 2: an effect on what we call reality. So it's it's
Speaker 2: not exactly the most up to date term. And that's
Speaker 2: why I'm reading the book by Federico Fijien. I'm really
Speaker 2: interested to see where we go with this and what
Speaker 2: comes next, because that's what I'm most interested in, these
Speaker 2: levels of conscious agency that's us as we're leveling up,
Speaker 2: as we're expanding our dimensional awareness and recognizing we need
Speaker 2: new math, we need new science.
Speaker 1: Right because now that I'm I'm thinking about it, I
Speaker 1: had a friend to refer to a group of people
Speaker 1: that she seemed to be traveling with spiritually, like spiritual
Speaker 1: brothers and sisters. They were kind of like on the
Speaker 1: same wavelength as her. She was like, this is our
Speaker 1: monad group. I was like, Oh, that's kind of interesting.
Speaker 1: Like people that she like will like meet in different
Speaker 1: places around the world. They seem to sync up and
Speaker 1: they're like working on similar projects at the same time.
Speaker 1: Like when we were in Sidona, one of these people
Speaker 1: happened to be in Sidona at the exact same time.
Speaker 1: But they didn't like inform each other of that, but
Speaker 1: they just like, we're going to the even the same
Speaker 1: vortex sites on the same day without you know, planning it.
Speaker 2: Right. Yeah, that makes sense. Yeah, that's a fine I
Speaker 2: mean often word to have many meanings, and so it
Speaker 2: seems appropriate and fitting. I like it, and it seems
Speaker 2: to fit a little bit of what life needs was
Speaker 2: getting into as well. You know, the idea that the
Speaker 2: consciousness is creating and I think you get a sense
Speaker 2: of that when you feel like I've got a monad group.
Speaker 2: It's like, what does that mean? If you press them
Speaker 2: to explain it further, they might actually say, there's like
Speaker 2: a consciousness that we are that we bring together and
Speaker 2: that we can feel more fully like ourselves and more
Speaker 2: expansive individually and as a group. We you know, we're
Speaker 2: good for each other, We're good for the group. This
Speaker 2: could be where a human consciousness is evolving to as well.
Speaker 1: Mm hmm, yeah, like different sub collectives within the larger collective. Yes,
Speaker 1: focusing on different things, very cool stuff. Anything that I
Speaker 1: haven't talked to you about or asked you about that
Speaker 1: you would like to touch on.
Speaker 2: Such a big subject. We didn't talk about the books
Speaker 2: that I've written, but I talked about other people's books.
Speaker 2: But I did publish a book on the aura, talking
Speaker 2: about dowsing, and that's aur. I've got a book that
Speaker 2: covers that pulling a dollar bill after a dollar bill
Speaker 2: out of a wallet. That one is the Reality Shifter's
Speaker 2: Guide to High Energy Money. And then I've also published
Speaker 2: that book, Reality Shifts When consciousness changes the physical world.
Speaker 2: That one's good for people who are very naturally intuitive,
Speaker 2: and they don't need all the explanation of what's going
Speaker 2: on necessarily, They just want to make it practical for
Speaker 2: their lives. And then I've got a book that's more
Speaker 2: mainstream that you can just put on your coffee table
Speaker 2: and show to anyone, and it's for left brain thinkers
Speaker 2: called Quantum Jumps, and that's a really great book about
Speaker 2: the same topic. So I've been covering the same material
Speaker 2: lots of different ways. And then my newest book is
Speaker 2: the one we've been talking about the Mandela Effect in
Speaker 2: its Society Awakening from Me to Wi, and it goes
Speaker 2: into Carl Jung and Philip K. Dick and what they experienced.
Speaker 2: Several of the modern day researchers, including Mary Rose Barrington
Speaker 2: that I never met and didn't know about, but he
Speaker 2: had a whole, like a language to describe this whole
Speaker 2: phenomenon of things appearing and disappearing. And I heard about
Speaker 2: it through Jeffrey Mitchelove when he interviewed me. I thought, Wow,
Speaker 2: where'd she come from? But so she's got a book
Speaker 2: about just one of those things, John. But I cover
Speaker 2: all this in my book. I do the best I
Speaker 2: can with Mandela Effect in its society to be completely
Speaker 2: current with everything I currently know. So it did take
Speaker 2: many years to write that book, but I also intend
Speaker 2: it to be excellent for experienced people as well as
Speaker 2: kind of a textbook to cover the history of the
Speaker 2: science some of my personal experiences with it. And then
Speaker 2: where is it going? Which to me is human expansion,
Speaker 2: human development. What you're doing with the classes that you're
Speaker 2: teaching for kids is exactly it, and it's recognizing that
Speaker 2: we have so much untapped potential and as we learn
Speaker 2: more about what's possible, it starts opening up and we
Speaker 2: can guide the future by asking the questions we most
Speaker 2: wish to live the answers, which is what I love
Speaker 2: about that how good can it get? Rather than like, oh,
Speaker 2: this went wrong, that went wrong, these bad things coming throes,
Speaker 2: what next? So the opposite of that would be how
Speaker 2: good can it get? And it's really challenging reality, like Okay,
Speaker 2: things look kind of grim, but how good can it get?
Speaker 2: Or things look really good? How good can it get?
Speaker 2: Just needing to know it? And that's the work of
Speaker 2: I want to credit John Archibald Wheeler because he's the
Speaker 2: one that talked about that participatory universe, and he was
Speaker 2: a colleague of Albert Einstein, and he's the reason that
Speaker 2: I'm focusing on the question aspect because when you ask
Speaker 2: nature a question, nature answers. So let's ask good questions
Speaker 2: even with just our thoughts, even if you think, well,
Speaker 2: I'm just thinking it to myself. Yeah, Remember everybody hears you.
Speaker 2: Everybody's psychic, whole universe is listening. So ask good questions,
Speaker 2: and that way it's going to be a great future for.
Speaker 1: All of us. Yeah. I had some time ago when
Speaker 1: I was first first becoming a coach. I had this
Speaker 1: vision of how questions work. It's like it opens up
Speaker 1: this sort of box and that you know, like as
Speaker 1: soon as you ask the question, it like opens a
Speaker 1: receptacle for the result or the answer to fall into.
Speaker 1: And it's like but you're like directing, Yeah, what falls
Speaker 1: in by how you frame.
Speaker 2: The question, and you'll notice how good can it get?
Speaker 2: It's kind of open ended. I'll sometimes ask how good
Speaker 2: can I get? So there's the reality and then there's
Speaker 2: me and I like to so if you want to
Speaker 2: do a refinement, how good can I get? So it's
Speaker 2: an awareness you're giving that gift to your subconscious that
Speaker 2: your subconscious knows what good is. It means healthy, happy,
Speaker 2: you know, prosperous, connected, you know, just vibing in a
Speaker 2: good way, very going higher and higher. So it goes
Speaker 2: into gratitude and reverence and ecstasy and happiness and just
Speaker 2: feeling like, Wow, what a magical place and time to
Speaker 2: be alive, and how grateful I am to be here.
Speaker 2: So so that is what the subconscious responds to. It's
Speaker 2: pretty wide open, and I do that on purpose. So
Speaker 2: otherwise I see a lot of people that paint themselves
Speaker 2: into corners without meaning to, Like they're asking for just
Speaker 2: so much, but they could have had so much more.
Speaker 2: They could have had good health too, and good relationships
Speaker 2: while they're at it, not just when a career.
Speaker 1: Yeah, because it's like you might be able to think
Speaker 1: of thirty ways that it could get better, but there's
Speaker 1: really infinite ways it could get better. Yeah, of course
Speaker 1: you're going to be limited to some degree. Yeah, there
Speaker 1: was one more thing that I just saw. I had
Speaker 1: a note to ask you about which I find interesting.
Speaker 1: Species becoming unextinct, Yes, speaking of good news, Oh yes.
Speaker 2: Yes, yeah, this is a huge one, especially if it
Speaker 2: would be up your alley with the biology background. So
Speaker 2: one of the big ones that's illustrated in the book
Speaker 2: that the Mandel effect in its society. It's the celoconth.
Speaker 2: I don't know if I can just flip the book
Speaker 2: and show it, but it's kind of a prehistoric looking fish, right,
Speaker 2: the thing is huge. No, I can't have a dog
Speaker 2: ear to pop open. Well, I do have some illustrations
Speaker 2: in the book, enough whipping right to it anyway, Well,
Speaker 2: you can look it up. It's spelled differently than it sounds.
Speaker 2: It's seal a contas the pronunciation it's spelled see. Oh
Speaker 2: here it is there? Okay that one?
Speaker 1: Okay is that? And that's like a deep water ocean fish.
Speaker 2: Yes, and it was considered completely extinct. It was one
Speaker 2: of those sad things where we had these huge fish
Speaker 2: at one time, but now it's gone. So well, now
Speaker 2: it's back and it's you know, the large meal. Let's see,
Speaker 2: weighs about two hundred pounds. That's like the size of
Speaker 2: a person. Yeah, and it measures like six and a
Speaker 2: half feet long, really about the length and weight of
Speaker 2: a person. They live sixty years and they thrive about
Speaker 2: two thousand, three hundred feet below the surface of the ocean,
Speaker 2: and so they look very primitive, and they were thought
Speaker 2: to go. They thought they're gone. They were extinct sixty
Speaker 2: five million years ago, kind of like along with the
Speaker 2: dinosaurs kind of a thing because these are dinosaur fish.
Speaker 2: But then when they were found in South Africa and
Speaker 2: then later in Indonesia, it's like they just keep finding
Speaker 2: more of them, like they're not only not extinct, they
Speaker 2: seem to be thriving, Like what how is that possible?
Speaker 2: And it's not just the silicont So I have a
Speaker 2: whole section in the book with animals and plants that
Speaker 2: keep popping up like we're here, and some of them
Speaker 2: have been gone tens of thousands of years, others have
Speaker 2: been done millions of years. And this was also predicted
Speaker 2: by the Hopie you know when if you read about
Speaker 2: their ancient their oral traditions, they said, you know, it's
Speaker 2: kind of like the Blue Star Kachina. It's like the
Speaker 2: bridge time things, kind of like you know, you're entering
Speaker 2: the fifth world when plants and animals that have been
Speaker 2: long gone long are coming back and they are so
Speaker 2: it's it's another one. And then some of the indigenous
Speaker 2: people say, when the white buffalo is born, you're in
Speaker 2: that bridge time. Well that happened Buffalo, Yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly.
Speaker 1: Wow.
Speaker 2: So these sacred things are happening and the signs are
Speaker 2: here which will and it gives me goosebumps of happiness.
Speaker 2: I feel like, oh yeah, remember, how good can it
Speaker 2: get when we enter the fifth world? It's it's going
Speaker 2: to be great, you know, instead of saying like, oh
Speaker 2: my gosh, it's going to be back to the Stone age. Cancel, cancel.
Speaker 2: Now I've already seen the Second Hope Prophecy rock. There's
Speaker 2: new technology on it, you know, that's new to me.
Speaker 1: That's why the technology is stone technology, though maybe maybe
Speaker 1: it's high tech stones.
Speaker 2: That's wine with me. Good tech that heals us and
Speaker 2: heals the earth. That sounds good.
Speaker 1: Have you seen those artifacts they are uncovering in Mexico,
Speaker 1: the like alien carved artifacts, and it's like if you
Speaker 1: rotate the stone, then the whole stone glows.
Speaker 2: Wow, they have that just like a I haven't seen
Speaker 2: that happen.
Speaker 1: It's like a sleeve, a stone sleeve that you put
Speaker 1: on and then there's like a watch dial on it
Speaker 1: and it like lights up and it glows with no
Speaker 1: energy source.
Speaker 2: Wow. Well that's pretty I was thinking of the Boogas sphere,
Speaker 2: which was found in Columbia and the and then Paula
Speaker 2: Harris she went down. She happened to be synchronistically in
Speaker 2: Mexico City at the time, you know, and so she
Speaker 2: definitely got to hold out and look at that. And
Speaker 2: that's another That thing was totally not the kind of
Speaker 2: technology that we know. It had ancient scriptures writing on it,
Speaker 2: very old, kind of like ancient Sumerian or something. But
Speaker 2: it's flying around in the air like a little ufo,
Speaker 2: like a drone, but with no means to propel it.
Speaker 2: And then it kept getting its mass was changing as
Speaker 2: it arrived in Mexico.
Speaker 1: City, like every time they tried to crack into it,
Speaker 1: it got heavier.
Speaker 2: Yeah, right, what the heck? Yeah, So it's definitely something.
Speaker 2: And this is the age that we're finding these fears.
Speaker 2: I think that some have been seen before, but it
Speaker 2: was definitely covered up. Now there's less of the cover
Speaker 2: up and there's more keeping this for the people instead
Speaker 2: of having it get glommed onto by some world superpower
Speaker 2: and then we never see it again. So that's what's
Speaker 2: really cool right now.
Speaker 1: Well, Cynthia, I want to thank you so much for
Speaker 1: coming on the show, and thank you for your work,
Speaker 1: all of your research and diligent you know, creating all
Speaker 1: these these books, different ways to explain it to people
Speaker 1: and bringing bringing them into into your world. So yeah,
Speaker 1: I really appreciate it. Thank you, thank you for having me.
Speaker 2: I love talking with you today.
Speaker 1: Well we'll talk soon, yeah,