Speaker 1: This Pet Life Radio. Let's Talk Pets.
Speaker 2: Welcome to Covered in Pet Hair, a boozy show for
pet lovers on Pet Life Radio. I'm your host, Isabelle Albazerata,
and today I have the pleasure to have a drink
and a chat with the leading expert in separation anxiety
in dogs for the second time.
Speaker 3: I will tell you all.
Speaker 2: About her and introduce you as soon as we come
back from these messages from our sponsors. Hi, I'm Isabelle
albert Zerata, the host of Covered in Pet Hair. You
know the expression cats have nine lives? Well, what if
you could give them one more? But give them ten?
Movement is on a mission to help give cats an
extra life. How with spee and newter, spaying and neutering
your cat helps them live a longer, healthier life and
it helps control free roaming cat populations too. Learn more
about the benefits of spee and neuter and meet Scooter,
the neuter cat at Give Them ten dot Org.
Speaker 3: That's give them tean dot Org.
Speaker 4: Let's Talk Pets on Petlife Radio dot com.
Speaker 3: Welcome back to Covered in Pet Hair.
Speaker 2: I'm your host Isabelle Albarezerata, and today I have the
pleasure of having a drink of a chat with a
pet parent. A dog trainer, a published author, an entrepreneur,
a founder. She's a primary educator for dog professionals. She's
a foodie, a wine snuff and a world trap. She
loves the ocean and considers herself a recovering workaholic. She's
originally from San Francisco, currently lives in the California Wine Country.
She's wife to Kevin, dog mom to Mabel and Tiny,
who is now fifteen years old. She is the leading
expert in separation, anxiety and dogs.
Speaker 3: She is Milenna Divartini. Welcome back. It's so good to
see you.
Speaker 2: I do block you're so kind for all the words
that you say, but yeah, I would just love your
smile as a bell.
Speaker 5: In the fact that you're just as enthusiastic as I am.
Speaker 3: It maakes me. It makes me really like excited and joyful.
Speaker 2: I know, any opportunity I have to check in with you,
I take as a blessing because you are the leading
expert in something that affects so many pet parents, and
I feel like there's still so much work to be
done because people don't know that they are a pet
parent to somebody with us a race of anxiety. And
my goal with these interviews is always to entertain and educate,
and you are the perfect entertainer and educator because you're
such an expert, but you're also so personal.
Speaker 3: So thank you for being my guest, Thank you for
having me. I love this and I'm with you.
Speaker 5: I want to get more education and information out there
because it's just amazing to me how we've grown in
education and awareness, but not to the extent that we
need to. So more and more and more people need
to know that there are positive ways to work with
separation anxiety, and more people need to know that it
even exists.
Speaker 2: Yes, exactly, Yes, So these people who might think they
have bad behaving dogs, they just may just be dogs
that have separation anxiety. Especially like we spoke last time,
and for those who are tuning in for the first
time to an interview with Malina DeMartini, you should check
out our first interview, which we did three years ago,
and it is a basic kind of intro to separation anxiety.
We're going to check in on some of that information
and we're going to talk more about separation anxiety and
how it affect different dogs in different stages of their life,
in different moments or experiences that they might go through.
So before we get into all that, I want to
introduce our drinking game today. So anybody participating in our
drinking game at home anytime you hear this.
Speaker 3: Word, the secret word is fear.
Speaker 2: Take a drink of whatever you're enjoying, but please be
over twenty one in the US to partake. Never drink
and drive, and always drink responsibly. So what are you
joining us with from the California wine country?
Speaker 5: Well, it's not wine today. As a matter of fact,
what I'm joining you with is called a separation anxiety
sooth their sprits.
Speaker 2: Ooh, I love that. What's in a separation anxiety through
their sprits? So that I can enjoy one when I
feel separation anxiety?
Speaker 3: Weh, there you go.
Speaker 5: Separation anxiety through their sprits is only for dog guardians,
not for dogs. Just so you know this is not
of course, you are dogs for sure, But this is
a slash of kampares slash slash f.
Speaker 3: Soda and a bunch of mandarin juice and peel from
my garden. I'm so beautiful.
Speaker 2: Oh, I love that so much. It sounds amazing, and honestly,
I say that the people who deal with real separation
anxiety at home, they need a soother because doggia separation
anxiety can be a lot to handle. So I totally
agree that's for humans only. And I'm actually joining you
with a similar drink. It is orange. Yeah, it is
orange too. It's a Mimosa classic. Mimosa just felt right today. Cheers.
Speaker 3: Thank you so much for being.
Speaker 2: My guest again. And I feel like we're having brunch
or something.
Speaker 3: Now.
Speaker 2: We kind of are, We kind of are in the future.
We will in real life.
Speaker 3: Okay.
Speaker 2: So I always introduced the show with a game, and
today is no different. We're actually going to catch up
on some of the facts that you shared last time
we spoke. This game is called Separation Anxiety Catchup, and
so we're going to just ask you some questions that
I remember from our conversation and see if anything has
kind of changed.
Speaker 3: Are you ready to play? I'm so ready to play.
Speaker 5: Yay.
Speaker 2: Okay, So right now, in twenty twenty four, approximately how
many dogs I think you said one out of a
number last time, So if you have that kind of
number this time, how many dogs are affected by separation anxiety.
Speaker 5: You'll be surprised to know that there santas wise, it's
about the same as it was three years ago.
Speaker 3: And three years ago if we think about.
Speaker 5: Timing wise, yes, any of us were lego, No, the
pandemic is going to like to up and spit out
dogs into their separation things.
Speaker 3: That he was right.
Speaker 5: Interestingly, though, so that was about you know, said, we're
in our neighborhood of twenty percent or more, going all
the way up to close to fifty percent. Interestingly, we've
had a lot more inquiries about dogs that are suffering
with separationing could be. But the popular from a population
level it is about the same percentage.
Speaker 3: And I think there's several things that have influenced that.
Speaker 5: One is, during the pandemic, everybody and their brother and neighbor.
Speaker 3: And you know friend adopted a dog.
Speaker 5: Right, But from a population level, almost fifty percent or
a little more than fifty percent rather of households in
the US acquired a new animal during the pandemic. So
just by virtue of elation increy, we're getting more inquiries, right.
Speaker 3: I think there's a little bit more that has influenced.
Speaker 5: This vow because everyone thought, oh, my gosh, these dogs
are not going to be left a lounge during the
pandemic for you know, weeks, months, almost years of what
has happened, and I were thought, oh gosh, they're.
Speaker 3: Going to all be suffering.
Speaker 5: But I think what actually has attributed to these increased
numbers of inquiries has been everyone. Everyone now can either
afford a standalone camera for thirty or forty dollars, or
they can just log into zengman watch their dog. So
people were not necessarily, for no reason other than accessibility,
we're not necessarily watching their dogs previously, and then they
start to watch their dogs and they're.
Speaker 3: Like, oh, oh.
Speaker 5: Interesting, that behavior doesn't look very very comfortable. And I
think one of the coolest things about that is that
a lot not you know, huge percentage, but a lot
of the employees we're getting now are I just I'm
watching my dog on you know, zoom or on the camera,
and he doesn't look comfortable.
Speaker 3: He's you know, kind of pacing, kind of whining. We
never got those employees before because no one knew, no
one noticed, no one saw it.
Speaker 2: Yes, that's amazing. Yeah, yeah, So I remember when we
spoke that you were recommending the cameras, and I recently
did have to purchase the camera for unrelated to pet reason.
But they are so much more affordable than they were
even when we spoke three years ago.
Speaker 5: Definitely, the main camera when we spoke, the mainstream camera
service when we spoke three years ago was Nest Cam
or drop cameras. It was, and it was like a
I mean it was not cheap for just just to
watch your dog kind.
Speaker 3: Of thing, right yeah.
Speaker 5: Now, I mean you even go on to any you know,
go into any you know, big buck store or any
online you know store and like thirty bucks, you're good.
Speaker 3: Yes, yes, exactly.
Speaker 2: I And for those who I'll shout out to, why's
wyz because that's what I use at my in my
grandmother's assisted living and it's been super easy. If you
want to record, you do need a little memory chip.
Speaker 3: Just know that. And that's a tip that I.
Speaker 2: Learned the hard way. I just was like assuming that
it was already built in there.
Speaker 3: And that's why they are so affordable, because.
Speaker 2: If you just want, you know, to be able to
check in whenever you want, you don't need to record.
They're like twenty thirty dollars and the chip I think
was like thirty dollars in additional once I ordered it.
So Why's wyz is a great option and definitely more accessible.
So has research also been continued since we spoke? Is
there more research? What has the research found? I know
you've said that there could be a genetic link. Is
there any more to indicate that that's the case?
Speaker 5: There is some sort of urging research genetic stuff, is
you know? I actually recently attended a conference about some
of the genetic components of jog behavior, and the wonderful
doctor Palmer was talking about just research in general, and
doctor Lindsay Palmer and was talking about research in general
and said that it takes.
Speaker 3: In gosh, I hope I quit this correctly.
Speaker 5: It takes ten to twelve years for the research to
kind of get down to the people that are applying it.
Speaker 3: Cool interesting, and I was like, oh my gosh, you know,
And so I thought there's a lot.
Speaker 5: I know, there's an I scour. I scour the research
all the time, but I suspect there's a lot out
there that are in publications that I'm just not aware of,
or are in other countries or other you know, are
published another So there's a lot happening from a genetic standpoint.
I don't remember if we spoke about this. That's what
had been discovered, which is pretty cool, is that there
was a haplotype, which, for lack of better term, a
genetic marker. Right, that's a very simplified way of saying it,
but that had been discovered that was an associated with
separation anxiety. Interestingly enough, the more I have read and understood.
Speaker 3: About that, it's not at all a surprise. I mean,
if you.
Speaker 5: Think about I'm going to breed a dog that has
fearful behavior of any sort of variety.
Speaker 3: The likelihood that the pups.
Speaker 5: Are going to have some sort of maybe not all
of them, but many, you know, some or many of
them will also have some fear behaviors.
Speaker 3: Absolutely, I think it's important.
Speaker 5: Though, and I hope I said this last time, but
if I didn't, we're making it into this recording. Just
because something might be genetically influenced does not mean that
it's not modifiable.
Speaker 3: Right, exactly, right.
Speaker 2: Absolutely, has there been any like breed and specifically that's
been identified as having separation anxiety in more cases than
other breeds.
Speaker 5: So there's a handful of studies that talk about oh,
we did this breed specific research so far the jury
is out, and I'm going to tell you why. There
are some breed specific research papers and I read through
them and I think, oh, my gosh, this exactly mirrors
my experience from almost twenty years ago.
Speaker 3: And I'll get you an example.
Speaker 5: There's one that shows that vijlas have a high propensity
for separation anxiety or separation related behavior problems. But so
when you like look through it and you're like, oh, well,
they're also based in Hungary, so that is the predominant
three or you know, very popular breeds there. So from
a population standpoint, there's a lot more viseless there then
there might be in I don't know Whichita, Kansas or
something exactly.
Speaker 3: So the jury is still out.
Speaker 5: I think what we are starting to see is partability.
When we're looking at lines of dogs, seems to be
seems to be fairly prominent cross breeds, not necessarily as much.
Speaker 3: God So in other words.
Speaker 5: This mom and that dad, have you know, some sort
of based separation really related to heater problems. Those pops
in that lineage, in that line may continue to show
some of those behavior issues, but that doesn't mean another
dog is reed that didn't have those problems would produce that?
Speaker 2: So still still out? Still and do you see it
more often in purebreads versus rescues?
Speaker 3: Is it about the same? Is the jury still out? Okay?
From a research perspective, the jury is still out.
Speaker 5: I'm going to give you my Curson aft of experience
because I think it's important that we hear it. There's
a lot of discussion about, well, obviously, shelter dogs, are
you know, going to have more separation related to heater
problems than purebread dogs. That is not anecdotally anyway from
my experience.
Speaker 3: What we see in our practice.
Speaker 5: I mean, we have probably a similar amount of pure
breds as we do you know, rescues and mixed breeds
and things like that. So I commonly say that separation
anxiety is sort of indiscriminate, Like it's like, oh, you.
Speaker 3: And maybe you over there and maybe you over here.
It's just what we don't know enough to know. We
know so much about what doesn't cause.
Speaker 6: Separation anxiety, but we know very little about what does.
So Okay, so that's my next question. What does not
cause separation anxiety? Maybe like the top three, maybe some
surprises that people some myth busting here.
Speaker 3: Love it.
Speaker 5: This is one of my favorite topics, just so you
know the number one thing that I want anybody and
everyone to hear. Like, you can shut this podcast off
if you have to go somewhere, but here this one point.
Speaker 3: Just hang on for one second.
Speaker 5: Spoiling quote unquote activities are not not are they not
really correlational, but they're not causational for separation anxiety. And
so when you are a dog guardian and you recognize
and realize that your dog has separation anxiety, the first
thing that people will commonly do is talk to their
friends and their colleagues and their family and percent of
those so just making that number up, but it's true.
Are gonna say, if you just didn't spoil your dog
so much, stop letting them sleep in your bed, stop
giving them treats all the time, and taking them everywhere
with you, and et cetera, et cetera, et cetera, letting
them on the couch, you know, all the things that
has those we're gonna call them spoiling behaviors.
Speaker 3: But in my my personal opinion, those are that's how
you love a dog exactly.
Speaker 5: That's just care dinner and kindness and love, right, yeah,
and none of those correlate with separationings. And that research
actually started very long agot.
Speaker 3: One of the first really prominent.
Speaker 5: Pieces of research was in nineteen ninety one about it, and.
Speaker 3: It's been replicated.
Speaker 5: And this is one of those things that's a really
important in research and in science in general. Right, we
can get this one off paper that says I found
this cool thing, but until it's replicated and then again
replicated and then again replicated, we don't know.
Speaker 3: We don't know. But this research has been replicated.
Speaker 5: Many, many times since the early nineties.
Speaker 3: And nope, love your dog, kiss.
Speaker 5: Your dog, your dog, point with your dog in the bed,
all the things, because that's not going to cause or
even impact, Thank Bettie.
Speaker 3: Exactly right.
Speaker 2: I stumbled upon a video of a dog trainer, I
don't know what their credentials were on social media, Yeah,
and it was that you're overspoiling your pet and that's
gonna lead to you not being able to leave the house.
And I made the mistake of commenting being like, that
is not how separation anxiety works. And so many people
are like, I know for a fact, and I'm like,
that's not what the science says, because I know I
heard it from the leading expert in separation anxiety that
that does not cause separation anxiety. Loving caring for you
and feeling like your pet is part of your family
does not cause separation anxiety. I love that you commented
on that, and I love that we are gonna be
able to share that. Diffuse that on social media because
there's so much misinformation about how we need to keep
our pets down in order for them to be healthier
and happier, Like it doesn't even make sense, like logically no.
Speaker 5: And as a matter of fact, a lot of the
so called let's just say trainers that are I mean
these things often talk about the concern that the dog
is hyper attached. And what's interesting is that attachment theory
started to become important back looking like in the fifties,
right started with Boldy and this was all about attachment
human child attached to not just.
Speaker 3: Parent, but female parent.
Speaker 5: So it was all it was very interesting, But attachment
theory there is there's so many holes to be poked there.
But one of the things that I think is really
important that people hear is that attachment, when it is
a positive attachment right, supportive attachment meaning they're getting everything
that they need that is correlated with fewer levels or
lower levels of anxiety, as opposed to insecure attack this
through and you know human relationship too, in secure attachment
where they're getting variable like sometimes I hug you and
love you, and sometimes I'm mad at you and I
you know, I'll smack you on the head or what.
Speaker 3: Exactly right?
Speaker 2: And I'm an attachment parent for that reason because from
my understanding, the more their needs are met, the more
independent they become when.
Speaker 3: They are ready to do so.
Speaker 2: So I've always been and I know my family thinks
I spoil my kids, and I'm always there for them,
and you know, they're too attached to me, And I'm like, who.
Speaker 3: Else are they going to be attached to?
Speaker 2: They're six and four years old, they're supposed to be
attached to their mom. And from a pet parent perspective,
who's feeding the dog? Of course they're going to be
attached to you. They can't open the door, drive to
the grocery store and buy themselves kibble. You are their
provider and their source of survival, so of course they're.
Speaker 3: Going to be attached to you.
Speaker 2: And it would be really unn that's for them not
to be knowing how our families function and how we
feed them once or twice a day, how we provide
for them every single thing that they need in their
life makes those sorry.
Speaker 5: And it's really and never to follow up on that
really quick because one of the things that I learned
this was the eons ago.
Speaker 3: But Jeane Donaldson actually said this, and.
Speaker 5: It always stuck in my head about like dominance type theory, right, like, oh,
they're trying to take over, you know, and I and
I really laughed at that, but I never really thought
it through until Jean said to me, how many dogs
do you know that it's stolen the car keys and
the cryptic cards and have driven off to like boil
themselves in the pet store or whatever.
Speaker 3: Exactly? They can't were they are.
Speaker 5: So you know, we need they need our care, they
need to if they want to go potty, they we take.
Speaker 3: Them out me pretty pretty so Sime exactly.
Speaker 2: It's so funny because I feel like we forget how
much our pets really understand about our dynamic because I
think we don't give them enough credit, you know, like
they know who feeds them. They stare at you every morning.
The person in the house who feeds them, they stare
at you every morning. They wouldn't be in your good graces.
They're not trying to challenge you so that you can't
have a hand.
Speaker 3: To feed them. Are you crazy?
Speaker 2: Like we have to give our pets a little more credit? Well,
I have two more questions for the game. These are
pretty I feel like these are gonna be helpful for
those who don't know much about separation anxiety. When people
call you, what is the most common symptom or sign
that they're sharing with you that leads them to believe
that it's separation anxiety?
Speaker 5: Well, I'm gonna talk about this reheaded dog, so sarahbas
here right, h The most common three symptoms are vocalization
when left alone, destruction when left alone, and elimination, So
you know, urinating or defecating in the house only when
left alone.
Speaker 3: I want to I think you're right.
Speaker 5: This is really important for people to hear becacause that
is changing, as I kind of alluded to earlier, now
that people have cameras to watch their dogs. Those three vocalizational,
elimination and destruction are three symptoms that are terribly inconvenient
to the guardian, you're getting landlord or neighbor complaints, you're
having to clean up pee and poop, you're replacing doors
or whatever.
Speaker 3: Those are.
Speaker 5: Really they're big deals to us as a human component.
But there are a lot more indicators of stress when
left alone.
Speaker 3: Those are just.
Speaker 5: The ones that really are obvious to us from a
we're not even if we're not watching the camera right right,
right right, and so to me, things like excessive panting, pacing, drooling, scratching.
Speaker 3: Uh, you know, there's there's.
Speaker 5: So many, you know, even just freezing and pupillary dilation,
you know, and like a dog is like terrifying and
trembling has there's no inconvenience to the guardian or to
the neighbors or to party. But that's a horrible, horrible
way to spend four hours while someone's.
Speaker 2: You know, out in a movie or whatever it is,
or eight or eight to ten hours if they're at work.
Oh no, and what have you seen any unusual signs
that people would be really surprised to learn can be
related to separation anxiety.
Speaker 3: So I'm gonna.
Speaker 5: Say, maybe this isn't unusual, but I will common not commonly,
but often enough get referrals from veterinarians saying this.
Speaker 3: You know, the guardian says he doesn't like being left alone, but.
Speaker 5: We want to talk because this dog has severe GI
issues or severe skin allergy type things or that kind
of stuff.
Speaker 3: And I'm not of that. Gotta say that across the board,
I am, and of course I don't. I'm not saying that.
Speaker 5: I know that these things are correlated from a medical standpoint,
but so many of these dog I'll tell you this.
When I was in corporate America, I was a stressed
out mess and I used to have a bottle I'm
not joking, a bottle of Pepto Bismo in my desk
drawer because I was constantly like, oh, I don't feel well,
and I was just like slugging at that.
Speaker 3: Well.
Speaker 5: Stress can and often does create gas, intestinal issues absolutely right, skin,
skin irritation and all the things. Again that obviously has
to be discussed with and diagnosed by a vet, but
it's not uncommon, and it's one of my One of
my favorite things is when we start to work on
the dogs separation anxiety and then suddenly you're like, oh,
they have normal duel again. That's amazing now and you're like, oh,
so it was you know, so what comes first the
chicken early egg?
Speaker 3: We kind of don't. We start to make some progress
with the anxiety.
Speaker 5: But I think that's an important one to think about
and to recognize, and it's one of the things we track.
Speaker 3: Very carefully when we're working with.
Speaker 5: Dogs, like out, what is there, what is their GI like,
what are other aspects of their health looking like.
Speaker 2: That is so important because I'm a big believer in
knowing the root cause for ailments, right, And if we
don't kind of know that, maybe you go to the
vet and you're telling your vet your dog has GI upset,
but you forget to mention that you're also working with
a dog trainer because of separation anxiety. That's really important
information because maybe the vet will be educated enough to say, like, hey,
I know this person who maybe you know who's the
leading expert who may be a better resource than you know,
a dog trainer who's not specializing in any way in
separation anxiety, so that maybe it can come back to
the root being not you know, a gut issue, not
the food they're eating, not the medication for xyz is
causing stomach upset, but maybe it is just the stress levels.
Speaker 3: They're so high.
Speaker 2: And I think everybody is seen at some point a
video of a dog having a huge reaction to, for example, noises.
We've all seen the videos of the dog trying to
get out of a crate or trying to escape his
own home because fireworks are going off. But I think
a lot of people haven't seen, you know, these subtle
yet really telltale signs of a dog with separation anxiety.
And like, sometimes they're so subtle, because my dog has
separation anxiety. Some it's better when she has a pet mate.
She does not do well individually at all, and she
it's very subtle with her. It's very kind of like
that very excited return from the store. She's just jumping
out of her skin after an hour, you know, ten
minutes out front, she's fine, an hour more, she just
is just jubilant that I'm back. So these kinds of
things people don't realize could be a sign of separation anxiety.
You just take it as a compliment. Your dog's happy
to see you, and you don't know that they have
been desperate for you to come back again because they
know that you are their source of survival. So thank
you so much for catching us up on that. I
want to catch me up on your business and everything
that you guys are doing. I want to shout out
to you and your team for supporting the Texas Petsators Conference.
You're always so generous with us, sharing with us your mission,
possible course, your books. So what do you have going
on right now other than everything you've always done, which
is your books, your courses, and being basically the leading
trainer for dog trainers that want to specialize in separation anxiety.
Speaker 5: Well, I'm glad you asked, because one thing I do
want to talk about that we've been working on for
about the last year. I mean, it's a huge passion
of mine. I mean, separation a Zeti in general is
my passion, but this piece has been a huge passion
in mine for a long time, and that is how
to support shelters and rescues that have separationing Zeti dogs
in their care.
Speaker 3: And there are there are big, big, big.
Speaker 5: Gaps in the elements of support and resources for shelters
and rescues. We conducted a survey started last year in October,
and we've had we've had quite a few responses from
staff and volunteers and fosters and everybody associated with shelter
and rescue, and.
Speaker 3: We learned a lot.
Speaker 5: And what we learned is that there are there's a
very large spectrum of yeah, we you know, we follow
up one time a week later and then they're on there,
you know, from there to much more robust and you know,
it was interesting because it was indiscriminate between really really
small shelters and rescues that only have one or two
people volunteers kind of thing.
Speaker 3: Very large.
Speaker 5: There was a lot of gaps in that follow up
and how to support adopters and even how to look
at the point of intake through fostering, through pre adoption,
through post adoption.
Speaker 3: And we've created a lot of resources for that. And
I recently.
Speaker 5: Presented on this shelter and rescue topic for ia ABC
at their conference, and I'm going to present again for
APDT Linated this year and PPG in a few months
on all of our research findings. One of the things
that I found interesting at the IAABC conference, I asked
the audience, like, how much follow up do you provide
for dogs with known separation related behavior problems once they're
a docketed and it was it was an interactive hole,
so they could just scan a QR code and then
just anonymously type in their answers, and those answers showed
up on my life right.
Speaker 3: It was. It was a little worrying because it was.
Speaker 5: Like none, none, very little, not anything, just some not
too much.
Speaker 3: One phono, you know, one phollow out call, one email,
one this and one. And there were.
Speaker 5: Others that did more, but the the over writing predominant
answer was none or little to none.
Speaker 3: We need to change that, yes, and.
Speaker 5: I think for the reason we need to change it, well,
for many reasons. But you know, we do a tremendous job.
And I my hats are off, and I salute everybody
in Shelter and Rescue. They do such wonderful work. And
I know that, you know, you get the dog into
your organization that has I don't know, a nice yel
tear or something like that, they're like, we're gonna raise
this much money to repair this ACL to get them out,
and then we're going to follow up and we'll have
that visits and all of this stuff. Separation anxiety is
a behavioral emergency. Okay, it may not be medical in
the sense that you can't operate and operate on it,
but it is a behavioral emergency, and I think we
need to give those jobs that same level of kindness,
care and support and those adopters as well. So I'm
hoping to start to educate and provide more resources that
will allow people to adopt these jobs with the understanding
and the hope that things the can this can be addressed.
Speaker 3: You know, yeah, absolutely.
Speaker 2: You know what's really interesting is that, as somebody who
supports and advocates for rescue and obviously advocates for training,
especially for situations like separation anxiety, I never thought about
maybe people doing a fundraiser to get a dog trainer
involved for a dog that is in a shelter environment
that suffers from separation anxiety. It should have been low
hanging fruit and really obvious to me, But until you
said it, I was not. You know, it just hadn't
occurred to me. So I think it's that's exactly why
we have these conversations. That's exactly why people like you
do what you do, so that we can make this
more of a you know, approachable topic that has a
solution rather than something that well I want I actually
I'm gonna ask you that may actually destin the dog
for the worst or for the unthinkable because they think
that there's no solution. So on that note, I'm going
to take a break right here. We're gonna listen to
our sponsors, and when we come back, I'm actually gonna
dig in deeper into separation, anxiety, rescues, and shelters.
Speaker 3: What they do, what they don't do, what it means
for the dog. So don't go anywhere. We will be
right back with Milena and Martini.
Speaker 7: You know the expression cats have nine lives? Well, what
if you can give them one more? But give them ten?
Movement is on a mission to help give cats an
extra life. How with spee and neoter, spain or nootering
your cat helps them live a longer, healthier life and
it helps control free roaming cat populations too. Learn more
about the benefits of spee and neoter and meet Scooter,
the neutered cat at Give them ten dot org. That's
give them t e n dot org.
Speaker 1: Let's talk past Let's done on radio Headline.
Speaker 8: Radio atlight radio dot com.
Speaker 3: Welcome back to Covered in ted Hair.
Speaker 2: I'm your host Isabelle Alberzerata and today I'm having a
conversation with the foremost expert in separation anxiety in dogs.
Speaker 3: That is Milena's Martini.
Speaker 2: If you know anything about dog training, if you know
anything about separation anxiety, you know Molenna, and you know
that she is just as knowledgeable as she is committed
and dedicated to this topic. I love having you on
the show, Molenna, because I learned so much and it
really does get me thinking about something that is very
akin to mental health. Right, so we talk about mental health.
Speaker 9: As an actual medical condition in humans, and this is
something that is very similar and many times in the
pet world it doesn't get its due.
Speaker 2: So we were just talking about how you are committed
to helping rescues and shelters navigate separation anxiety from the start,
through adoption and beyond. And I want to play a
game with you, and this is called Mission Possible Rescues
and shelters to take from your courses name and I
just want you to tell me how you and your
team help in these specific moments and things that maybe
adopters should be looking out for, asking for if they,
you know, if they think that they might be working
with a rescue that's open to it.
Speaker 3: So the first question I have for.
Speaker 2: You is how do you help shelters and rescues at intake.
An intake for those who aren't familiar with the terminology,
is when they receive a pet in a shelter environment.
Might be like an owner surrender, It might be transferred
from a high kill shelter, from a rescue. It might
be pulling them from this shelter or against owner surrenders
or returns. How do you help that process?
Speaker 5: So for the intake process, it's good news and slightly
not great news. When we have someone that's surrendering an anima.
We have created a questionnaire which, by the way, needs
to be discussed and the questions they need to be
asked in a very compassionate and empathetic way.
Speaker 3: This is not.
Speaker 5: Judging this person for bringing their dog because they're for
whatever reason, that is what they need in.
Speaker 3: Their lives for what you know, for their situation. But
the more information.
Speaker 5: That we can gather about that dog, the better equips
the shelter or rescue will be to provide that particular
animal with not only what they need while they're in
their care, but also provide them with the best opportunities
for adoption with the right types.
Speaker 3: Of fits fits.
Speaker 5: When shelters and rescues pull, you know, whether it's astray,
whether they pull from another organization, they grab a dog
that is in a rescue that was potentially going to
be euthanized, there's typically not the level of information. And
it's hard because one thing that I talk to, and
I talk to a lot of shelter and rescue organizations,
and one thing that everybody is sort of pulling their
hair out about is how do we know? How do
we know if this dog has separation anxiety if we
don't have intake.
Speaker 3: Information from a previous guardian.
Speaker 5: And the answer is, you don't because this operation anxiety
looks identical to shelter stress. And it can also not
be very apparent at all in an environment where our
dog is very shut down and overwhelmed. So while in
the shelter environment, even those dogs that you think, oh,
I take them out for their let's say, their walk
and they don't want to go back in the kennel
and they just want to be.
Speaker 3: With me, kind of that could just be shelter stress.
Speaker 5: Yes, and there's a big concern about labeling a dog
with separation anxiety.
Speaker 3: That doesn't have it.
Speaker 5: And there's also a big concern about labeling a dog
that does have separation anxiety without you know that you transparency,
and so I really urge shelter and rescue organizations to
refrain from diagnoses unless they really.
Speaker 3: Have historical information. Okay, perfect, Okay.
Speaker 2: So that's the thing that I feel like is always
missing in the rescue process is the questionnaire. So this
is available to all rescues and shelters. You provide the questionnaire.
They don't have to make up the questionnaire, they just
need to ask people to complete it.
Speaker 5: Yes, and I recommend that it's sort of a conversation
as opposed to please fill this.
Speaker 3: Out type of got it. You know, it's it's a it's.
Speaker 5: A kindness that we need to afford people, even though
we don't like dogs being relinquished because.
Speaker 3: It because that worries us.
Speaker 5: But it's a kindness that many people need, is our
empathy and compassion.
Speaker 3: And that how is available.
Speaker 5: To download this That resource and all the others are
available for free to download on our website.
Speaker 3: So amazing.
Speaker 2: Yeah, and I think it's really important that we leave
all judgment aside because at the end of the day.
It really is about setting that pet up for success.
Speaker 3: And if the.
Speaker 2: Person is there surrendering them, they obviously are not in
the best place they can be. So knowing that information
allows us to find a better solution for that pet,
a better placement for that pet. So it's always like
the same way when I go to my district meetings
for my kids public school, the goal is the kids.
Speaker 3: It's always about the kids.
Speaker 2: The bureaucracy, everything else, the feelings the adults feel not important.
Speaker 3: It's about the kids, and in this case, it's about
the pets.
Speaker 2: How does the shelter environment I imagine it would exacerbate separation anxiety.
How do you help shelters mitigate that if it's even
possible to do so?
Speaker 5: Yeah, So it can exacerbate separation anxiety. We don't have
We don't know for sure because we don't have enough
numbers and research behind that, but anecdotally from what we see,
it can commonly exacerbate some of the separation related behavior issues.
Speaker 3: Before fully answering this question, I want.
Speaker 5: To make a huge, huge, sort of disclaimer in that
I recognize that when we're talking about shelters and rescues,
we're talking about organizations that could.
Speaker 3: Be one or maybe two people that are just.
Speaker 5: Renting it because they love that brety, do they love
the local community dogs or whatever, all the way up
to a behavior staff of twenty people.
Speaker 3: In a volunteer pool of several hundred. You know, so
not every suggestion.
Speaker 5: Was gonna necessarily work, depending on the resources that the
individual organization has. The very first suggestion for those that
have the resources available would be to consider foster care,
and that, of course would be wonderful for these dogs.
They interestingly enough, it's often assumed that the foster needs
to do the training for separation anxiety. While that wouldn't hurt,
that doesn't flies to the new home. And so if
we have limited resources, I'd rather put those limited resources
in getting other types of support that goes with the
dog post adoption.
Speaker 3: Inside of foster though.
Speaker 5: There's some really great research. Lisa Gunter and a couple
of other folks put.
Speaker 3: The research together about just getting the.
Speaker 5: Dog, like hanging out in the office for a couple
of hours with the shelter and rescue a getting.
Speaker 3: An overnight with a volunteer, getting.
Speaker 5: A long you know, day trip with a staff member,
or a volunteer or you know, those sorts of things
continue to I mean they're not it's not perfect.
Speaker 3: But these are these are difficult.
Speaker 5: Nations, right, and those continue to allow that dog to
kind of reduce some of that stress, and that reduction
and stress seems to be contributing to their resiliency to
be able to handle the environments that they're in.
Speaker 3: Really important.
Speaker 5: So we just have to see the best we can
do based on the resources that we have. And you know,
I love that you mentioned when you were saying, hey,
I never thought of raising money, you know, or raising
funds for separation anxiety dogs or any behavior.
Speaker 3: For that matter.
Speaker 5: But either there's a lot of things that even monetarily
don't have to be included.
Speaker 3: I love, love, love when we have.
Speaker 5: Whether it's a foster or or an adopter of a
dog with separation anxiety, creating an online calendar that volunteers
and local pet sitters and dog walkers and etc. Be like,
I'll cover that two hours while you have to go
to a doctor's appointment on Thursday.
Speaker 3: Nice.
Speaker 10: I mean like that is invaluable, invaluable, And you know,
so there's a lot of things that we can offer
that some yes, are going to take you know, some
some financial resources, like training, but others, I mean, getting
people to help with that management would be amazing.
Speaker 3: Absolutely.
Speaker 2: I love the idea of having volunteers sit with the
dogs because obviously we don't.
Speaker 3: Want to leave them with their fear.
Speaker 2: Like you said last time we spoke, you just lock
them up with their panic and leave them on their own.
That's not what we want. So having somebody to just
support by just sitting there and watching TV or doom
scrolling for two hours while the pets is yeah, like
the pets there. It's your break, it's your lunch time,
whatever it's There's so many programs out there where we
have people volunteer to walk dogs, but I haven't heard
of anybody having volunteers to just sit with a dog.
And not all dogs want to walk for a whole hour,
so sitting with them would be nice.
Speaker 3: Too, very much, so very much so.
Speaker 5: Yeah, most often these dogs just pray the human, you know,
be hanging out with them. And I want to remind
people too, you know, yes, pet sitters charge and dog
walkers charge. There's a lot of low cost and no
cost resources to you know, college students that just want
a nice quiet wi Fi enabled place to Yes, exactly,
and they're like, can I eat a sandwich out of
your refrigerator?
Speaker 3: Make it? You know, makes grass ten bucks for gas
money or what you know. Yeah, yeah, it doesn't always
have to.
Speaker 5: You know, people think I can't afford daycare and therefore
I can't no take care is yeah, fine, but it's
just one of many any options, and many of them
are free or very low costs.
Speaker 2: And honestly, knowing that the pet sitters and dog walkers
of the world as well as I do, many of
them volunteer anyway, So it wouldn't be something that they
would be unable to do, especially if they take a
liking to a specific pet, you know, be a part
of that pet's adoption process, you know, if they're available,
if they're you know, maybe January February, when they don't
have a ton of people traveling, they can dedicate their
time to that.
Speaker 3: So yeahs Again, it's finding.
Speaker 2: And using those resources, leveraging the connections that we have
in the industry and the city, in the town that
we live.
Speaker 3: How do you support adopters?
Speaker 2: So I assume that because these shelters and rescues are
connected with you, they know your resources they're referring to you.
Do you find that a lot of these adopters actually
follow through and reach out?
Speaker 5: They do, and I think that it's kind of too prompt.
A lot of the shelters and rescues that we work
with know that we provide a lot of resources to adopters.
And one of the things that we offer any shelter
or rescue anywhere in the world, if they want to
support an adopter that has a separation anxiety afflicted dog,
we will give them a one hundred dollars discount on
Mission Possible. Mission Possible is one.
Speaker 3: Hundred and ninety nine dollars regularly.
Speaker 5: Which is lifetime access. We are in that platform every day.
People can post questions, post comments, they can ask all
sorts of stuff, and we respond to it three hundred
and sixty five days a year or so. Your people
aren't alone, adoptors aren't alone. So we offer that discount
to any shelter or rescue that wants to reach out
to us. They ask whether they want the adoptor or
repaid the ninetion dollars or the shelter wants to cover that.
You know, that's up to them, but so that's kind
of one place that I think anybody from an affordability
standpoint could.
Speaker 2: Post absolutely and it's and it is and it's it's
one of those self guided but also guided courses. So yes,
let's rite at your pace and you do it when
you have the time, but you also have somebody to
guide you because this isn't you know, some training is
black and white.
Speaker 3: This is not this.
Speaker 2: There's a lot of gray and separation anxiety. So you
want that support, which is amazing.
Speaker 5: Yeah, And then other organizations are like, let's let's give
this dog, uh, you know, one or more months of
one on one training.
Speaker 3: Uh.
Speaker 5: And some of the adopters who are like, I want
to start out right, I'm just gonna go right in
and get one on one train and that's that's awesome too.
I have to say, as much as I really feel
strongly about getting that one on one training, so that
we don't continue to misstep.
Speaker 3: It's easy.
Speaker 5: It's easy to misstep. The amount of success we see
through those dog guardians that go through Mission Possible is
pretty pretty outstanding. I want to make sure that people
know that, yeah, you might want to go through Mission
Possible and now like you get you know, a couple
weeks in and you go, oh, I have a question.
Maybe i'll you know, maybe I'll just do a one
quick ad hoc half an hour or something like that
to ask some questions or ask questions within the platform.
Speaker 3: We always ask you that, but if it's really specific to.
Speaker 5: Their dog, their environment, we need to look at that,
you know. Just it's one of those things where I
feel like if I, if I, you know, passed away tomorrow,
I would know that there were a lot of people
out there that would be able to continue to thrive
with their dogs based on something that I have contributed
in that way.
Speaker 3: That's amazing.
Speaker 2: That is really special, And I think the building of
community for something like this is really important because a
lot of people have no idea what they're getting into.
They hear separation anxiety, they're like, oh, we can we
can handle that, and then they see the behaviors. They
become bigger because they mismanage it. Not on purpose, but
we don't know what we don't know. And then they're like,
nobody in my family gets it, and nobody in my
work understands why I can't go out after work because
I don't have a sitter nobody gets it, and then
they join something like or they find their way to you,
and then they join Mission Possible, and they see that
they're not alone and that other people have similar experiences.
Even though it manifests differently, it's still a community that
you can pound on and maybe share those lows and
those highs with that really gets.
Speaker 5: It, really gets it. And I can tell you I've
been in I've been a guardian, and I have a
dog that suffered with separation. Things that in myself this
was ten years after I had already been specializing in
the behavior. But just having people that said, oh, I
know you can't meet us for dinner, why don't we
all come to your ho some brings in takeout.
Speaker 3: Yes, because they get it.
Speaker 5: They get it and as opposed to being like, well
you just can't, We're just going to exclude you kind
of thing.
Speaker 2: Like you're spoiling your dog just laying and it's a dog.
Speaker 3: Yeah.
Speaker 2: So, when it comes to education for volunteers or workers
in the rescues and shelters, do you feel like there's
a huge need for education do you find that something
depending on, like I guess the funding of the shelter,
Maybe they have more education than others. Is it just
drastically different depending on where you look. How have you
found that kind of aspect of this, because education is
so important, especially from the top of the leadership in
shelters and rescues, it is.
Speaker 3: Really quite varied.
Speaker 5: And I think those organizations that have someone on staff
or at least a volunteer that have good behavior background
tend to have much more understanding.
Speaker 3: Got it. It's a little shocking to.
Speaker 5: Me that there's a large component of organizations that are
still like, put them in a crate and stuff a
Kong and it'll be fine, you know.
Speaker 3: And shout out to Kong. I don't know, sense there's
stuff exactly. Yeah, yeah, yeah, no, yeah, you have them
in a crate and they should be fine.
Speaker 5: And I just I want to get the message out
there that I am don't pay.
Speaker 3: Me, I will educate you. I want to you don't know.
Speaker 5: That you can help and that there is hope and
that these dogs have tremendous ability to improve if we
approach their training and behavior modification in the right way.
Speaker 2: Okay, so help you help the dogs, because I imagine that
and I don't know. I've never spoken to anybody about
separation anxiety in terms of rescues and shelter specifically. But
is it a death sentence for some of these dogs
to be diagnosed with separation anxiety? And obviously, if the
shelters are gaining access to these resources, does that improve
their outlook a lot?
Speaker 5: So the I'll answer part two before I answer for one, Yes,
and it does improve their outlook a lot when when
shelters and other rescue organizations have access to these resources
and understand that there are ways to devote their internal resources,
not always financially, sometimes not even at all financially, but
devote some resources time volunteers to getting this dog into
the right home, including things like screening for the right
adopter and counseling the adoptor, because saying to an adoptor, well,
he doesn't like being left alone is not enough, because
ninety percent of them are going to say, oh, if
I love them enough, he'll be fine kind of thing.
Speaker 3: You know that, that's fine.
Speaker 2: I work from home three days a week.
Speaker 3: It's cool. Yeah, I don't go out that often. Yeah.
Speaker 2: They don't realize how often they're gone until they come
home and their door has been gnawed to like pieces.
Speaker 5: Yes, big back. So that education I think is so
so important. I'll tell you know, years ago, there were
some local organizations that it was an automatic eth in
Asia if a dog came in positive, you know, knowing
that the dog had some sort of separation really behavior
problem or was relinquished for that reason. And then when
we did this survey that we started in October, there's
still a few people or a few people that filled
out the survey, you know, some of them said, we
provide some sport, we do this, we do that. There
were still a handful that said automatic youth in Asia.
And I really would like to get that education out
there because of.
Speaker 3: Course I can't say that this would be for any and.
Speaker 5: Every dog right anxiety, but man, most of these dogs
that have this particular behavior problem are the most amazing,
amazing dogs that don't have a whole lot of, if
any other behavioral problems. And we'll just fix that whole
separation eddy pink elephant in the room, and then they're
like the easiest, most.
Speaker 3: Incredible lossy.
Speaker 2: Yes exactly, Yes, I mean, it's one of those things
where we can't fault them for wanting us near them.
We can't fault them for wanting to make sure that
they're going to survive our next outing. We can't blame
them for that, And it really comes from a place
where they just want to be safe, they want to
have stability, They just they want to that home, loving
home environment.
Speaker 3: That's what they want.
Speaker 2: So I'm happy to hear that it's changing.
Speaker 3: I am.
Speaker 2: It breaks my heart to think that a dog with
separation anxiety would be an automatic euthanasia.
Speaker 3: I under stand that.
Speaker 2: There are extreme cases where maybe there are a danger
to themselves and others. We see that with aggression, we
see that with reactivity, we see them with a lot
of different behaviors. That there are extreme cases, but it
shouldn't be the norm. And speaking of these wonderful dogs,
tell me, I know that it was teeny who had
the separation anxiety. You had already been working in separation anxiety,
but she kind of solidified this for you as your purpose.
Speaker 3: How has her.
Speaker 2: Aging now that she's fifteen affected her separation anxiety?
Speaker 3: Is it different? Does it look different? Is it less more? Yeah?
Speaker 5: I hope I don't start to like get ulterior because
she's getting really up there and we're saying some considerable
signs of aging, but in the last year or two
it has affected her a long time behavior. And you know,
I'm not surprised at all because think of it this way.
This is going to be a very odd example. But
my mother, who is in her eighties, years ago decided she.
Speaker 3: Was not comfortable driving anymore.
Speaker 5: She has brave vision, she's physically fit, she's can hear
while you know, all the things.
Speaker 3: But she just as a result of aging, felt more vulnerable.
Speaker 5: And I am not I wouldn't anyway be surprised if
as our dog's age, just like when we age, those
little aches and pains and the little things that affect
us do start to make us feel more vulnerable. Whenever
there's vulnerability, there tends to be the potential for increased
anxiety in certain situations.
Speaker 2: Absolutely, it makes perfect sense. Again, it's I was listening
to this doctor. She was talking about the human brain,
and it really applies to most mam all mammals, and
most animals that the brain is wired for survival and reproduction,
survival and reproduction, survival and reproduction, whether you're.
Speaker 3: Human, cat, no matter.
Speaker 2: And it does make sense that if they feel like
their survivability is impacted by aches and pains by a
reduced energy levels, that they would be a little more
on edge. And I feel like that's gonna happen to
all of us. I'm with your mom. I think that's
a really great decision to make before it's you know,
a problem. So I think it's really responsible, you know
that that she made that decision.
Speaker 3: I hope that. I wish more people did that.
Speaker 2: But it really is one of those things where you say, like,
I get the anxiety. The anxiety is that you're not
able to defend yourself from predators, You're not able to
defend for yourself as much. You know, you're just a
little less able to care for yourself. In Teeny's case,
she's tiny, so there's also that and she, you know,
it's a little more on edge. And I love that
you're talking about her her aging process because we always
think about aging as arthritis, inflammation, blindness, deafness, but we
forget that these behavioral slash mental health right. Canine mental
health feline mental health conditions can also be affected by aging,
and it's not just canine dimension dementia or cognitive decline.
It's also an aggravation of a condition they may have
had their whole life, So it's so important. And do
you have like people in your practice that come to
you not like maybe they didn't even know for twelve
years that their dog had separation anxiety, and the aging
has kind of made it more obvious.
Speaker 3: I do.
Speaker 5: And I'll tell you I don't have the perfect answer,
and I'll I can relate it to what's going on
with TEENI right now. I mean, I think about it
with Teenie and I think think about those times when
I've been sick, like imagine having a migraine, Like you
want your mommy or do you want your partner? Like yeah,
I think I'll think of it as seem like there's
some of the lays who knows of what nature, but
like I don't want to be alone because I don't
feel right. And I think about Peenie and when in
the last fewar or two as she has started showing
signs of discomfort when left alone, I don't feel personally
that I want to jump into a full on behavior
modification protocol and try to help her learn to be
alone successfully. I feel like these last months, years, whatever,
I just want to support her in any and every
way that she needs to be supported in her senior years.
Speaker 3: And so sometimes this part when.
Speaker 5: Someone wishes out to me and their dog, let's say,
is you know, starting to experience some cognitive dysfunction decline
and they're like, oh, my dog's you know, twelve or
thirteen or whatever, and suddenly they're whatever about alone time.
It's hard for me because I want to be able
to offer them some solutions, but I also want to
let them know that maybe this last year or two
that you have left with your dog would be a
beautiful time to give them everything that they need.
Speaker 3: It's been a gift to you. Let's give this gifts
tenfold back.
Speaker 5: You know.
Speaker 3: Yes, I always give people the choice always, But.
Speaker 5: For me, it's really hard to think about implementing behavior
modification for separation related behaviors when I know that some
of that is inspired by discomfort, pain and all the rest.
Speaker 2: Yeah, that is such a great point, and I'm so
happy you made that, because, like I keep saying, is
we adjust for the incontinence, we adjust for the you know,
we buy the extra expensive supplement for the joint pain
and inflammation. Sometimes we just need to adjust that all. Yes,
exactly exactly, but we have to sometimes adjust for these behavioral, emotional,
psychological things that are going on as well that are
sometimes forgotten because there's no visible pain or no veterinarian
telling you there's, you know, sixty percent arthritis in the
hips or whatever, there's no way of really understanding it.
But if you finally figure out that your fourteen year
old dog is extra attached, it's just time to manage.
Speaker 3: At that point, I agree with you.
Speaker 2: Yeah, well, okay, so how can my audience learn more
about everything that you offer, all of your expertise? How
many dog trainers have you even educated at this point?
Where can they find a dog trainer near them if
they want to find somebody who's, you know, certified by you.
Speaker 5: Okay, well, feel free anybody, whether you are a dog guardian, paparent,
whether you are a dog professional, a behavior consultant, a trainer,
whether you are a VET, a veterinary behaviorist, a VETAC,
just go to my website. There's a ton of free
information there for anybody to use. The website is Melenadmartini
dot com.
Speaker 3: So I spell it or will be in the show notes.
Speaker 2: I'll put it in the show notes, and I will
put it in the video so that everybody can do.
Speaker 5: Thank you, that'd be great, And there are a number
of ways that we can support individuals. Right now, I
think i've I've sort of lost count, but it's over
two hundred and fifty certified separation anxiety trainers that have
have been have graduated in my program.
Speaker 3: We are all over the world.
Speaker 5: And we do all of our work remotely because guess
what if I show up your house, that's not about
leaving your dog alone. So everything we do is work
with our clients remotely, five days a week typically, which
is unheard of in our industry, but we ah. And
you can go to my website and search by location,
uh meeting a location from a time zone perspective because
I want grapes, I'm yes, and also from a language perspective,
so if you have a if you are not English speaking,
there are a number of language opportunities of trainers and
behavior consultants on the website, so you can search for
a variety of different parameters.
Speaker 2: Well, thank you so much for your time for educating
me and my audience. I love talking to you, So
here's to you. Thank you for all you do for
these beautiful dogs. They just want a little extra attention.
Speaker 3: Thank you all. Cheers, cheers.
Speaker 2: I also want to propose the tost to my executive producer.
Speaker 3: Mark Winter.
Speaker 2: Thank you, Mark, and to our audience for joining us
for these awesome conversations.
Speaker 3: I hope that you took as much from this as
I did. It filled my heart to talk to you, Milenna.
Speaker 2: Here's to a life covered in ted hair, because there's
no better.
Speaker 3: Way to live.
Speaker 2: Cheers.
Speaker 3: I don't live to learn more.
Speaker 2: About it in pet hair.
Speaker 3: Please visit Covered in pet Hair dot com or petlife
radio dot com.
Speaker 2: Thanks for watching, and I'll see you next time.
Speaker 4: Let's Talk pets every week on demand only on petlifradio
dot com