WEBVTT 1 00:00:00.120 --> 00:00:01.120 Teenage lobotomy. 2 00:00:01.280 --> 00:00:03.080 I want to be sedated psychotherapy. 3 00:00:03.200 --> 00:00:05.599 My brain is hanging upside down, brain drain. 4 00:00:06.320 --> 00:00:07.639 Why this fascination with the brain. 5 00:00:07.759 --> 00:00:09.039 We're screaming out for help. 6 00:00:13.640 --> 00:00:20.480 I hope you get that. 7 00:00:31.359 --> 00:00:34.280 Welcome to Amusing Jews, where we celebrate Jewish contributors and 8 00:00:34.280 --> 00:00:38.399 contributions to American popular culture. I'm Jonathan Friedman. 9 00:00:38.280 --> 00:00:39.520 And I'm Joey Angelfield. 10 00:00:40.039 --> 00:00:43.679 Producer engineer Mike Tomren is working somewhere behind the scenes. 11 00:00:44.039 --> 00:00:47.039 Amusing Jews is a project of a Dot Hoverine Congregation 12 00:00:47.119 --> 00:00:50.600 for Humanistic Judaism, the Jewish Museum of the American West, 13 00:00:51.000 --> 00:00:55.560 and the Atheist United Studios. Hey, Joey, Punk rock is Jewish, 14 00:00:55.920 --> 00:00:59.920 As today's guest is written, punk reflects the whole Jewish history, 15 00:01:00.079 --> 00:01:05.000 repression and uncertainty, flight and wandering, belonging and not belonging, 16 00:01:05.560 --> 00:01:09.439 always being divided, being both in and out, good and bad, 17 00:01:09.760 --> 00:01:15.159 part and apart the Shpilkes. The nervous energy of punk 18 00:01:15.840 --> 00:01:16.640 is Jewish. 19 00:01:16.840 --> 00:01:19.760 We're delighted to talk with Stephen Lee Bieber, a freelance 20 00:01:19.840 --> 00:01:21.760 journalist and author of. 21 00:01:21.439 --> 00:01:24.120 The hebgb's at CBGB's. 22 00:01:23.760 --> 00:01:28.920 A Secret History of Jewish Punk. Stephen, Welcome, to amusing Jews. 23 00:01:29.319 --> 00:01:31.879 Oh hi, thanks for having me. Great to be here. 24 00:01:32.079 --> 00:01:34.840 What led you to explore the Jewish history of punk rock? 25 00:01:35.159 --> 00:01:38.359 Well, I'm Jewish and I grew up at a time 26 00:01:38.400 --> 00:01:40.799 when it wasn't that cool to be Jewish. You know, 27 00:01:40.879 --> 00:01:44.319 there was Barry Manilow, and as much as I like 28 00:01:44.359 --> 00:01:48.239 Paul Simon, it wasn't rock and roll, and yeah, Barbara 29 00:01:48.280 --> 00:01:51.719 Streiss and and the like. But I liked rock and roll, 30 00:01:51.760 --> 00:01:55.519 and I did not have heroes as I were, So, 31 00:01:56.239 --> 00:01:59.760 you know, like most Jews, I wouldn't say I do 32 00:02:00.239 --> 00:02:02.480 the jew but you do kind of notice when when 33 00:02:02.519 --> 00:02:07.680 one crosses the radar. And I was at some point 34 00:02:07.799 --> 00:02:12.159 in the I think it was the early nineties when 35 00:02:12.719 --> 00:02:17.960 Perry Ferrell of James Addiction was talking about being into 36 00:02:18.120 --> 00:02:23.280 Cabbala and then Madonna was into Kabala and Britney Spears 37 00:02:23.360 --> 00:02:25.719 and Heat magazine. It appeared, I'm like, what the hell's 38 00:02:25.759 --> 00:02:28.599 going on? Jews are cool all of a sudden. So 39 00:02:28.759 --> 00:02:34.159 I started thinking about looking at this rise and you know, 40 00:02:34.360 --> 00:02:37.800 Jewish hit and as I started looking at rock in general, 41 00:02:38.479 --> 00:02:41.240 it hit me, which I'm kind of amazed had never 42 00:02:41.319 --> 00:02:45.400 hit me before, how Jewish punk was. I mean, it's 43 00:02:45.400 --> 00:02:49.879 from New York. New York, for all its cultural cachet, 44 00:02:50.000 --> 00:02:53.840 and like the center of American culture, has really had 45 00:02:54.000 --> 00:02:58.599 very few rock movements. There's the San Francisco scene, there's Athens, 46 00:02:58.840 --> 00:03:04.240 there's you know, grunge and Washington and Seattle, but New 47 00:03:04.319 --> 00:03:07.879 York really is only known for punk. And why because 48 00:03:07.919 --> 00:03:12.120 well it's the most New York of rock movements. And 49 00:03:12.360 --> 00:03:16.319 according to the Lenny Bruce formulation, it doesn't matter if 50 00:03:16.360 --> 00:03:18.759 you're Catholic, if you live in New York, you're Jewish. 51 00:03:19.319 --> 00:03:21.639 And I think that's so true of punk. Not only 52 00:03:21.680 --> 00:03:24.039 were once I started to look more closely, a lot 53 00:03:24.080 --> 00:03:27.319 of the people whose names you know, were changed for 54 00:03:27.400 --> 00:03:33.479 stage the stage, they were Jewish, but their attitudes were 55 00:03:33.520 --> 00:03:35.919 so Jewish, you know. Even some of the non Jewish 56 00:03:35.960 --> 00:03:40.039 acts growing up around Jews and being New Yorkers were 57 00:03:41.159 --> 00:03:46.919 jew Asque, let's say, not Jewish, jew Esque. So that's 58 00:03:47.039 --> 00:03:49.680 kind of how I ended up there. And then, of 59 00:03:49.719 --> 00:03:54.199 course the connection between Nazi imagery and punk and Jews 60 00:03:54.520 --> 00:03:58.199 seemed counterintuitive at first and then so obvious, like you know, 61 00:03:58.400 --> 00:04:01.560 like hiding and playing sight and a you know, follow 62 00:04:01.599 --> 00:04:04.000 the money of the kind of mordergate that the deeper 63 00:04:04.000 --> 00:04:06.479 I went, the more it became a parent that it was. 64 00:04:06.599 --> 00:04:09.520 It was really something integral to the beginning. It is 65 00:04:09.560 --> 00:04:11.840 a punk if not the most intricral thing. 66 00:04:12.080 --> 00:04:14.680 The spot the jew tendency that a lot of us have, 67 00:04:14.879 --> 00:04:17.519 myself included. I mean, it can be done on a 68 00:04:17.600 --> 00:04:20.000 very superficial level where you're like, oh, isn't that interesting, 69 00:04:20.079 --> 00:04:24.439 isn't that interesting? But when you start to analyze the 70 00:04:24.439 --> 00:04:28.319 individuals that we spot as Jews, it's very common that 71 00:04:28.360 --> 00:04:32.240 there's something really quite universal in the Jewish experience that 72 00:04:32.360 --> 00:04:35.360 is expressed through this person. I know that you found 73 00:04:35.399 --> 00:04:36.839 a lot of that in the punk movement. 74 00:04:37.160 --> 00:04:40.040 Absolutely, yeah, no, I you know, I grew up in 75 00:04:40.040 --> 00:04:42.639 a Jewish family. I love my family, but it was 76 00:04:42.680 --> 00:04:44.959 always like, oh so and so is jewious, like so, 77 00:04:45.560 --> 00:04:49.720 you know, unless there's something that is meaningful about it, 78 00:04:49.720 --> 00:04:51.399 And that's what I was looking for. Is there a 79 00:04:51.399 --> 00:04:54.399 common thread here other than an accident of being from 80 00:04:54.399 --> 00:04:57.360 the same background? In other words, ha, did that background 81 00:04:57.439 --> 00:05:02.240 affect then? And that? Yeah, that's that's what really is. 82 00:05:02.240 --> 00:05:05.120 From that sort of cultural studies component of it, you know, 83 00:05:05.160 --> 00:05:11.439 American studies and I pe, you know, kind of looked 84 00:05:11.480 --> 00:05:16.399 at all the aspects of cultural Jewish and it's not Judaism, 85 00:05:16.800 --> 00:05:19.519 uh though there's you know, a bleed over there's you know, 86 00:05:19.560 --> 00:05:23.240 there's some relationship, but cultural Judaism, you know, that idea 87 00:05:23.240 --> 00:05:28.600 of being outsiders and rootless cosmopolitans, right, who are critiquing 88 00:05:28.639 --> 00:05:32.279 the culture and making jokes about the culture and making 89 00:05:32.399 --> 00:05:34.839 jokes in part because the culture they have to deal 90 00:05:34.920 --> 00:05:38.800 with is oppressive and in the history of oppression for sure. 91 00:05:38.839 --> 00:05:42.360 I mean, the Holocaust is just the cherry on top 92 00:05:42.439 --> 00:05:47.399 of the history of Jewish oppression. It's the it's the ultimate. 93 00:05:47.519 --> 00:05:51.560 But there are plenty others. Inquisition, you know, Babylonian exile, 94 00:05:52.800 --> 00:05:55.199 you can you know, we all know, we can find 95 00:05:55.279 --> 00:05:58.120 any anyone anywhere in the world. People have hated us 96 00:05:58.160 --> 00:06:04.399 at some point badly. And the Holocaust, though it is 97 00:06:04.439 --> 00:06:11.199 so such an impactful cultural trauma for Jews and really 98 00:06:11.600 --> 00:06:16.160 for Western civilization. You know, that's I think why it 99 00:06:16.199 --> 00:06:18.439 doesn't matter in a sense if you're Jewish. You know 100 00:06:18.480 --> 00:06:22.079 that old Levi's Rye commercial. You don't have to be 101 00:06:22.120 --> 00:06:24.360 Jewish to love Levi's right. You don't have to be 102 00:06:25.040 --> 00:06:27.720 Jewish to get how horrible the Holocaust is. But it 103 00:06:27.759 --> 00:06:32.560 sure doesn't hurt to have for it to strike a 104 00:06:32.560 --> 00:06:34.680 little deeper. Yeah, yeah, I think it. 105 00:06:34.639 --> 00:06:38.040 Does hurt, But it hurts so much because it's us. 106 00:06:38.920 --> 00:06:39.120 Right. 107 00:06:39.240 --> 00:06:41.759 You know that Lenny Bruce is considered the patron saint 108 00:06:41.879 --> 00:06:42.639 of punk rock? 109 00:06:43.279 --> 00:06:45.439 Why is that a lot of the people who I 110 00:06:45.480 --> 00:06:48.199 interviewed and I talked about one hundred and fifty people 111 00:06:49.759 --> 00:06:52.160 in addition to doing you know, research and books and 112 00:06:52.480 --> 00:06:54.959 past interviews and that kind of thing, but so many 113 00:06:55.040 --> 00:06:57.639 of them mentioned Lenny Bruce as being really important to 114 00:06:57.680 --> 00:07:02.399 them growing up. You know. So these were punk is 115 00:07:02.519 --> 00:07:07.000 early to mid seventies and New York and so these 116 00:07:07.000 --> 00:07:10.600 are people came of age in the mid to late sixties, 117 00:07:10.680 --> 00:07:15.399 right or even earlier. And that's Lenny Bruce's height, the popularity. 118 00:07:16.360 --> 00:07:20.160 And he was synonymous with Jewish, synonymous with New York. 119 00:07:20.439 --> 00:07:24.319 He was cool. He was you know, a badass, as 120 00:07:24.360 --> 00:07:30.240 they said, a smart ass and funny with an edge. 121 00:07:30.439 --> 00:07:35.560 You know, he's all social critique, no taboos. And you 122 00:07:35.600 --> 00:07:41.360 know Chris Snine I remember from Blondie, who was partners, 123 00:07:41.480 --> 00:07:44.720 never buried, but partners with w Harry for before the 124 00:07:44.759 --> 00:07:49.120 band started and through the end of the band talk 125 00:07:49.199 --> 00:07:51.839 to me about how he kind of recognized later in 126 00:07:51.879 --> 00:07:57.199 life listening to Lenny Bruce again talking about his own 127 00:07:57.279 --> 00:08:01.160 marriage to Honey Harlowe, the shick Sagata and how you 128 00:08:01.199 --> 00:08:02.959 know he was attracted to her in part for that 129 00:08:03.079 --> 00:08:06.480 and Chris jokingly but also you know, with some truth 130 00:08:06.519 --> 00:08:09.639 saying that that resonated. You know, that's kind of I 131 00:08:09.680 --> 00:08:16.639 realized how much that is like Neian Debbie. So they 132 00:08:16.800 --> 00:08:19.959 really just kind of came up in conversation, and then 133 00:08:20.000 --> 00:08:22.480 I started asking people because enough people mentioned it, and 134 00:08:22.519 --> 00:08:26.600 it sounded like just about everybody loved Lenny Bruce. You know, 135 00:08:26.720 --> 00:08:30.560 maybe except for the DA at the time in New York, 136 00:08:30.600 --> 00:08:33.000 at most of America, but all the all the punks, 137 00:08:33.320 --> 00:08:36.240 all the punks liked Lenny Bruce a lot like an adult, 138 00:08:36.799 --> 00:08:38.840 one of the adults they could look up to, as 139 00:08:38.879 --> 00:08:39.440 they put. 140 00:08:39.240 --> 00:08:43.759 It, enjoining the show, click like and subscribe. You argue 141 00:08:43.799 --> 00:08:47.360 that these largely Jewish musicians, a generation removed from the Holocaust, 142 00:08:47.480 --> 00:08:50.159 were the first to truly break the silence. How did 143 00:08:50.159 --> 00:08:50.720 that play out? 144 00:08:50.919 --> 00:08:54.120 When I wrote the book, I didn't actually even see 145 00:08:54.159 --> 00:08:58.000 a further connection that I've since kind of come upon, 146 00:08:58.919 --> 00:09:03.200 and that is the the Eichmann trial. Nineteen sixty one 147 00:09:04.240 --> 00:09:10.080 was not. It was a pivotal event in Holocaust history 148 00:09:10.440 --> 00:09:14.320 because up until the Aikman trial, people generally did not 149 00:09:14.720 --> 00:09:17.720 talk about the Holocaust. Immediately after the war, it was 150 00:09:17.759 --> 00:09:19.600 all but too painful to talk about it, and it 151 00:09:19.679 --> 00:09:24.360 was among Jews considered somewhat shameful. It was really hard 152 00:09:24.399 --> 00:09:26.840 for survivors in that sense to not only have had 153 00:09:26.879 --> 00:09:29.600 to go through that, but then to be on some 154 00:09:29.840 --> 00:09:34.519 level not supported. I don't mean they were shunned in exile, 155 00:09:34.639 --> 00:09:38.360 but people didn't want to advertise that aspect of Jewish is, 156 00:09:38.440 --> 00:09:43.799 that victimhood as they saw it. When Eichman was brought 157 00:09:43.840 --> 00:09:47.039 to trial, the idea for David Bengerien and a lot 158 00:09:47.080 --> 00:09:52.000 of the other Israeli leaders was to use the trial 159 00:09:52.080 --> 00:09:54.600 for justice obviously, I mean, who deserves to go on 160 00:09:54.639 --> 00:09:59.159 trial more than Eichman, but to publicize why there was 161 00:09:59.200 --> 00:10:04.600 an Israel that was that there was a need for 162 00:10:04.639 --> 00:10:07.039 a haven of sorts, because there were people like this 163 00:10:07.159 --> 00:10:10.679 out there at very high levels of power, and you know, 164 00:10:10.720 --> 00:10:15.480 it could happen again. So that trial was one of 165 00:10:15.519 --> 00:10:20.759 the first, if not the first, really broadcast on network television, 166 00:10:21.679 --> 00:10:25.600 and there were excerpts every day and in New York 167 00:10:25.919 --> 00:10:28.519 they were not just excerpts. It was like, I don't 168 00:10:28.519 --> 00:10:30.559 know if any either you're old enough to remember the 169 00:10:30.600 --> 00:10:33.080 Watergate hearings, but those were on TV would ruin the 170 00:10:33.080 --> 00:10:36.720 cartoons on certain days, and Galligan's Island, you couldn't say. 171 00:10:36.879 --> 00:10:38.759 For us it was the oj Simpson trial. 172 00:10:38.879 --> 00:10:41.840 There you go, there you go equivalent, Yeah, you know, 173 00:10:41.879 --> 00:10:45.320 we preempt this message, and so preempting that message in 174 00:10:45.320 --> 00:10:48.320 New York for long stretches of time was the Eichmann Trial, 175 00:10:49.080 --> 00:10:52.759 and it was graphic, I mean on purpose. You know, 176 00:10:52.799 --> 00:10:56.240 they really were honest about what had happened in the 177 00:10:56.320 --> 00:11:02.440 camps and in Germany and general. And the the children 178 00:11:03.320 --> 00:11:06.360 who were watching that were the punks. You start to 179 00:11:06.399 --> 00:11:11.440 see beginnings of the late sixties into the seventies, lots 180 00:11:11.480 --> 00:11:19.639 of movies, television shows, books, uh directly about the Holocaust 181 00:11:19.720 --> 00:11:23.559 and indirectly just about Jews. Jews only become very interesting 182 00:11:23.600 --> 00:11:28.759 to people. Philip roths all Bello, you know, Bernard Malamud 183 00:11:29.440 --> 00:11:33.559 and writing on television. You got you know, Bridget Loves 184 00:11:33.639 --> 00:11:41.120 Bernie Rhoda Holocaust, the mini series with Meryl Street and 185 00:11:41.279 --> 00:11:46.320 Theater Sophie's Choice, Woody Allen Elliott Gould leading men, I 186 00:11:46.320 --> 00:11:48.279 mean jus is leading men and would have been unheard 187 00:11:48.279 --> 00:11:52.360 of at one time. Elliott Gould, Dustin Hoffman, Richard Dreyfus, 188 00:11:52.639 --> 00:11:56.320 lots and lots of very openly not just coded Jewish, 189 00:11:56.360 --> 00:11:59.399 they were clearly Jewish. Springtime for Hitler, you know the 190 00:11:59.440 --> 00:12:06.120 producers mel Brooks movie in which he uses the Nazis 191 00:12:06.639 --> 00:12:10.399 for humor, and that's what the punks did and a 192 00:12:10.399 --> 00:12:14.399 lot of people misunderstood at the time and thought they 193 00:12:14.399 --> 00:12:19.039 were just being insensitive offensive. Well, I mean, one can 194 00:12:19.120 --> 00:12:21.600 make the argument it's kind of insensitive, but one can 195 00:12:21.639 --> 00:12:25.799 make the argument just as Jews have always done to 196 00:12:25.960 --> 00:12:32.480 cope with oppression and difficulty, They've made jokes you know 197 00:12:33.000 --> 00:12:37.679 today and I guess the equivalent would be, you know, 198 00:12:37.960 --> 00:12:41.399 black people using the N word, they reappropriate it, turn 199 00:12:41.440 --> 00:12:45.159 it into something that doesn't have the power anymore because 200 00:12:46.120 --> 00:12:48.159 who is using it, Who's the one that's in charge 201 00:12:48.200 --> 00:12:50.840 of it? Well, they are, And that's a lot of 202 00:12:50.879 --> 00:12:55.000 what the the Nazi imagery and punk was about. And 203 00:12:56.360 --> 00:13:00.759 some very funny jokes about you know, Nazis. They saved 204 00:13:00.840 --> 00:13:04.080 Hitler's cock, they put it in a box. Was one 205 00:13:04.120 --> 00:13:06.799 of my favorite lyrics from one of the punk de 206 00:13:06.879 --> 00:13:07.679 heads of the time. 207 00:13:08.159 --> 00:13:10.919 Well, I'm also thinking how Jews were not the only 208 00:13:10.960 --> 00:13:13.240 ones who suffered at the hands of Nazis, and so 209 00:13:13.320 --> 00:13:17.200 I think maybe Jewish punks were sort of dabbling in 210 00:13:17.200 --> 00:13:20.480 intersectionality as opposed to exceptionalism. You know, they weren't saying 211 00:13:20.559 --> 00:13:22.320 Jews were the only ones who suffered, but they were 212 00:13:22.320 --> 00:13:27.000 sort of leading the leading the charge of the you know, 213 00:13:27.080 --> 00:13:29.440 anti fascist, fuck Nazi kind of movement. 214 00:13:30.000 --> 00:13:32.519 Absolutely. I mean, if you want to call the original 215 00:13:32.559 --> 00:13:37.279 punks the original antifa, I think you're absolutely right. It 216 00:13:37.399 --> 00:13:40.559 was fascism in general, and it wasn't just the Jews. 217 00:13:40.600 --> 00:13:45.919 It was the punks in general recognizing that, you know, 218 00:13:46.120 --> 00:13:51.000 this kind of tendencies, I mean, especially once Reagan came 219 00:13:51.039 --> 00:13:55.320 around in nineteen eighty. But you know, the punks. I 220 00:13:55.399 --> 00:13:58.639 think one thing people forget because punks hated hippies, they 221 00:13:58.679 --> 00:14:00.799 always say, But a lot of the punknks, the early 222 00:14:00.879 --> 00:14:03.360 punks were hippies, but they were at that end of 223 00:14:03.399 --> 00:14:07.000 the hippie movement that was more yippie, you know, Jerry 224 00:14:07.080 --> 00:14:12.799 Rube and Abbie Hoffman politically revolutionary, and they wanted to 225 00:14:12.799 --> 00:14:15.679 bring back that element of rock and roll, the basic 226 00:14:16.960 --> 00:14:20.240 rebellious nature of rock and roll, the democratic impulse in 227 00:14:20.360 --> 00:14:23.600 right anybody can play it, uh, if they have something 228 00:14:23.639 --> 00:14:39.600 to say, and the passion to say. All of the 229 00:14:39.679 --> 00:14:44.399 punks were, yeah, addressing not just the Holocaust and history, 230 00:14:44.840 --> 00:14:50.240 but the potential of Holocaust thinking ideology, you know, right 231 00:14:50.279 --> 00:14:52.639 wing eyey ideology. 232 00:14:52.440 --> 00:14:59.080 To to to create darkness and and uh, you know 233 00:14:59.159 --> 00:15:04.960 when when Ramone wrote this, the Ramone song Bonzo Goes 234 00:15:05.000 --> 00:15:11.320 to Bittberg about Reagan going to a cemetery in Bittberg, Germany, 235 00:15:11.399 --> 00:15:12.879 honoring the SS. 236 00:15:13.360 --> 00:15:17.720 It's different to honor fallen drafted soldiers and who fought, 237 00:15:17.799 --> 00:15:20.240 you know, in World War Two. That's understandable. It's not 238 00:15:20.320 --> 00:15:24.759 their fault really, but the SS you had to you 239 00:15:24.799 --> 00:15:27.519 had to pay your dues and prove you're really loyal. 240 00:15:27.600 --> 00:15:30.000 And I mean, what are we doing honoring the SS? 241 00:15:30.120 --> 00:15:35.480 You know? So yeah, and you know, like I say, 242 00:15:35.559 --> 00:15:39.039 if in the book, but I would even I think 243 00:15:39.200 --> 00:15:41.039 stress it more now if I were to go back 244 00:15:41.080 --> 00:15:48.120 and revisit it, the non Jews who also were very 245 00:15:48.200 --> 00:15:53.480 impacted by the story of Western civilization and what I 246 00:15:53.559 --> 00:15:55.559 was capable of. If you want to just put it 247 00:15:55.639 --> 00:15:59.919 into a bigger umbrella. You know, Iggy pop Uh then 248 00:16:00.080 --> 00:16:04.240 Iggy Stooge are the Stooges had a I think it 249 00:16:04.279 --> 00:16:06.159 was called the Rape of the Virgin is what he 250 00:16:06.200 --> 00:16:09.000 called the act, and it was him being stomped on 251 00:16:09.120 --> 00:16:13.759 and literally bloodied by Ron Ashton, one of the band members, 252 00:16:13.799 --> 00:16:18.919 wearing a Nazi uniform. And Iggy used to date Jewish 253 00:16:18.960 --> 00:16:23.000 women almost exclusively, I think married a Jewish woman eventually, 254 00:16:23.480 --> 00:16:28.279 and his father was actually raised by two Jewish sisters. 255 00:16:29.120 --> 00:16:33.840 And Iggy when he was dating this one Jewish woman 256 00:16:33.879 --> 00:16:36.159 at the time, who was a child of Holocaust, of races, 257 00:16:36.159 --> 00:16:39.080 I have a surprise for you at tonight's show. He 258 00:16:39.120 --> 00:16:42.559 thought she would love because like cathartic and and he 259 00:16:42.639 --> 00:16:44.919 did the rape of the Virgin. She hated at She's like, 260 00:16:44.919 --> 00:16:47.840 what the hell? But he meant well, he met well, 261 00:16:47.879 --> 00:16:54.159 he was he was trying to exercise the demon in 262 00:16:54.200 --> 00:16:56.919 a way, right. I mean, even the sex Pistols, for 263 00:16:57.000 --> 00:17:02.799 all their questionable practices, you know, the holidays and the 264 00:17:02.840 --> 00:17:06.119 sun talking about, you know, go to a new Belsen. 265 00:17:06.240 --> 00:17:09.400 What wasn't like they wanted to go to a concentration 266 00:17:09.480 --> 00:17:13.359 camp for a vacation. They were making fun of people 267 00:17:13.440 --> 00:17:17.640 who go to like third world countries and enjoy themselves 268 00:17:17.640 --> 00:17:20.279 while there's misery all around them, and like, you know, 269 00:17:20.359 --> 00:17:22.200 so they're making a parallel life. Like I'd like to 270 00:17:22.240 --> 00:17:26.599 go on a vacation to Belsen, you know, that'd be great. So, yeah, 271 00:17:26.640 --> 00:17:29.039 I think you're right about the intersectionality. It wasn't just 272 00:17:29.119 --> 00:17:34.000 Jews of gay people, you know, romany people, many Catholics, 273 00:17:34.960 --> 00:17:40.000 any political enemies. You know, the original concentration camp was 274 00:17:40.160 --> 00:17:45.000 for political enemies in Dacau, Germany. So I'm not telling 275 00:17:45.039 --> 00:17:46.759 you anything you don't know. I'm just I'm just saying 276 00:17:46.799 --> 00:17:51.000 I absolutely agree with you that. Yeah, I think that 277 00:17:53.799 --> 00:17:56.640 the intersectionality of it is is definitely part of it. 278 00:17:56.720 --> 00:17:59.559 Yeah, how should we assess the impact of the Ramones 279 00:17:59.599 --> 00:18:03.599 and specifically it's frontman Joey Ramon born Jeffrey Hyman. 280 00:18:03.920 --> 00:18:08.960 Well, Joey is so such like a paradigm shift and rock. 281 00:18:09.839 --> 00:18:14.079 You know, Joey was and I don't mean this in 282 00:18:14.160 --> 00:18:17.359 any knock against Joey. I loved Joey and everybody did. 283 00:18:17.480 --> 00:18:20.359 Everybody called him a minch, right, that was the term 284 00:18:20.400 --> 00:18:24.039 always used for him. But he was a little freakish looking. 285 00:18:24.119 --> 00:18:27.039 If you look at the average person. He was very, 286 00:18:27.160 --> 00:18:30.279 very tall. I think it was six or eight something 287 00:18:30.359 --> 00:18:33.759 like that. Grew up, you know, feet taller than his 288 00:18:34.039 --> 00:18:37.519 kids in high school and later he put on a 289 00:18:37.519 --> 00:18:40.480 little weight, but he was emaciated, so it was all 290 00:18:40.559 --> 00:18:45.119 the more exaggerated. He had a big hook nose and uh, 291 00:18:45.599 --> 00:18:50.680 you know, kind of bad posture due to some physical conditions, 292 00:18:50.720 --> 00:18:56.119 and looked like a you know, one of those stereotypes 293 00:18:56.160 --> 00:19:00.640 of Jews and the dishturmer, the Nazi newspaper mericature of 294 00:19:00.680 --> 00:19:05.640 a Jew. He was anything but what was at the 295 00:19:05.720 --> 00:19:08.799 time seen as a rockstar. Rockstar was Robert Plant with 296 00:19:08.799 --> 00:19:13.160 his shirt unbuttons of the navel and tight jeans and cockrocker, 297 00:19:13.279 --> 00:19:15.799 you know, like it's all sex and stud and I'm 298 00:19:15.799 --> 00:19:19.440 in charge. And Joey was like, I'm a freak. You're 299 00:19:19.440 --> 00:19:23.799 a freak. We're all freaks. That's cool, you know. Gabba 300 00:19:23.880 --> 00:19:27.680 Gabba hey, one of us, one of us. Yeah, that 301 00:19:27.920 --> 00:19:30.079 Gaba Gaba Hey comes from the movie Freaks, So it 302 00:19:30.119 --> 00:19:32.240 was actually Gobble Gobble Hey in the movie, but it 303 00:19:32.319 --> 00:19:35.880 was the chant of all the freaks and I'm again 304 00:19:36.039 --> 00:19:42.519 quotation works around freaks bonding together and putting a spell 305 00:19:42.680 --> 00:19:45.880 on someone who was cruel to them. Who was the beauty, 306 00:19:46.480 --> 00:19:52.240 the blonde beauty. Uh so Joey. Yeah, Joey was kind 307 00:19:52.240 --> 00:19:55.000 of the emblematic of it in so many ways. And 308 00:19:55.079 --> 00:19:59.599 so much of punk is about neuroses and about being 309 00:20:00.039 --> 00:20:04.319 broken and twisted. And yet it's an anti hero, right, 310 00:20:04.400 --> 00:20:08.039 because if you were in this culture and you're paying attention, 311 00:20:08.160 --> 00:20:11.319 you really should be broken and twisted. You know, if 312 00:20:11.359 --> 00:20:15.559 you're not upset, there's something wrong. If you're not wounded 313 00:20:15.599 --> 00:20:21.200 by the culture, there's something wrong. Joey. What's interesting to me, 314 00:20:21.359 --> 00:20:27.000 especially about Joey, is that Tommy, the other Jewish member 315 00:20:27.000 --> 00:20:29.559 of the Ramones, who no one knew was Jewish, including 316 00:20:29.680 --> 00:20:33.440 their Jewish manager Danny Fields, until I told him. Tommy 317 00:20:33.640 --> 00:20:38.319 was very self conscious about it. It was Tommy who 318 00:20:38.400 --> 00:20:42.200 insisted to the other two d D and Johnny that 319 00:20:42.599 --> 00:20:45.480 Joey be the lead singer. They're like, what, that's insane. 320 00:20:45.680 --> 00:20:47.319 He's not a he's not I mean, they knew he 321 00:20:47.319 --> 00:20:50.119 could sing, but he just let he looked ridiculous as 322 00:20:50.160 --> 00:20:52.960 the leader of Bend. Tommy said, no, that's the point, 323 00:20:53.279 --> 00:20:55.400 that's what we are. That's the kind of band we 324 00:20:55.440 --> 00:21:00.440 are where he's the leader. Tommy was a child of 325 00:21:00.720 --> 00:21:05.000 Holocaust survivors who were hidden or protected by non Jewish 326 00:21:05.079 --> 00:21:11.519 friends in Budapest during World War Two, and they fled 327 00:21:12.000 --> 00:21:16.039 in fifty six with the Soviet you know, when Soviets 328 00:21:16.079 --> 00:21:19.079 kind of crushed a rebellion and anti Semitism was on 329 00:21:19.079 --> 00:21:21.200 the rise there like that, and we've been through this once, 330 00:21:21.279 --> 00:21:28.559 We're not here for that again. And Tommy was I 331 00:21:28.559 --> 00:21:30.920 don't think paranoid's the right word, because you know, if 332 00:21:30.960 --> 00:21:34.640 they're after you, you're not paranoid. So but he was very 333 00:21:34.759 --> 00:21:39.599 alert and cautious, never denied as Jewish as was proud 334 00:21:39.640 --> 00:21:44.200 of it, but didn't advertise it. And his vision for 335 00:21:44.279 --> 00:21:48.400 the Ramones was really a very Jewish vision. And the 336 00:21:48.519 --> 00:21:53.599 fact that the Ramones and I'm sorry to fear from Joey, 337 00:21:53.599 --> 00:21:55.880 but Joey's so intrigral to the Roan's like you can't 338 00:21:55.880 --> 00:21:58.720 talk about John Lennon with they're talking about the other Beatles, right, 339 00:21:58.920 --> 00:22:02.039 They're They're that kind of band where the four distinct 340 00:22:02.079 --> 00:22:09.799 personalities make up a whole. Johnny collected Nazi memorabilia and 341 00:22:10.000 --> 00:22:12.759 was known to say any Semitic things. Was it just 342 00:22:12.839 --> 00:22:17.559 to wind people up or was the questionable it's a 343 00:22:17.799 --> 00:22:19.960 you know, who knows, it's a little No one knows 344 00:22:20.000 --> 00:22:24.240 what's in someone's heart, but he sure did hurt people 345 00:22:24.440 --> 00:22:27.839 like Joey and Tommy. Tommy had to drop out of 346 00:22:27.880 --> 00:22:32.359 the band in part because of Johnny. That's why he left. Dede, 347 00:22:33.079 --> 00:22:38.079 whose mother was German, whose father was an American serviceman 348 00:22:38.119 --> 00:22:44.880 who married her while stationed in Germany occupying force, had 349 00:22:44.880 --> 00:22:48.559 a very conflicted relationship towards Germany. But to piss off 350 00:22:48.599 --> 00:22:52.920 his father, he collected Nazi memorabilia as a kid, and 351 00:22:52.960 --> 00:22:58.799 the two of them were somewhat counterpost against Joey and Tommy, 352 00:22:59.839 --> 00:23:06.240 and together those preoccupations came up. And yet in a 353 00:23:06.319 --> 00:23:09.720 comic context it was kind of you know, Tommy especially 354 00:23:09.960 --> 00:23:13.160 would take those songs and make them funnier, so that 355 00:23:13.200 --> 00:23:18.960 the Nazis seemed kind of ridiculous. And Joey, obviously later 356 00:23:19.039 --> 00:23:22.559 with Bonso goes to Bitberg part of that as well directly. 357 00:23:22.799 --> 00:23:27.359 And that was a song originally Johnny did not want 358 00:23:27.599 --> 00:23:32.079 Reagan named in the title. It was called My Brain 359 00:23:32.160 --> 00:23:35.920 is Hanging upside down, which is the chorus. And you know, 360 00:23:36.319 --> 00:23:38.599 Johnny was a big support of the police and Reagan 361 00:23:38.759 --> 00:23:43.839 and supposedly had a photo of Hitler over his fireplace. 362 00:23:44.200 --> 00:23:46.079 I never saw it, so I can't say for sure 363 00:23:46.160 --> 00:23:50.279 that's true, but I heard that and anyway, so there 364 00:23:50.279 --> 00:23:55.119 are a lot of negotiations in there that reflected bigger schisms, 365 00:23:55.319 --> 00:23:58.640 and not even just on the Ramones. It's another bands too. 366 00:23:58.799 --> 00:24:02.519 You know, Kiss was sort of punk adjacent, same time period, 367 00:24:03.759 --> 00:24:07.799 some of the same fright elements, like for kiddies, and 368 00:24:08.039 --> 00:24:11.720 they were split between two Jews and in one hardcore 369 00:24:11.799 --> 00:24:14.759 any you know, Nazi sympthizer. 370 00:24:14.839 --> 00:24:18.079 So it's just fascinating that these bands were able to 371 00:24:18.119 --> 00:24:22.920 be friends, we can assume, and work together despite that 372 00:24:23.799 --> 00:24:26.279 kind of deal breaker in most relationships. 373 00:24:26.519 --> 00:24:29.839 Yeah, the Ramones are also known as the most dysfunctional 374 00:24:29.839 --> 00:24:32.799 band in history, and they really were. They hated each 375 00:24:32.839 --> 00:24:35.759 other by the end. You know, Joey would sit in 376 00:24:35.759 --> 00:24:38.359 the back of the bus, Johnny on the front. Joey. 377 00:24:38.519 --> 00:24:40.240 I mean, I don't I don't mean to sound like 378 00:24:40.279 --> 00:24:43.240 I'm mocking. I mean, you know, he had like everyone 379 00:24:43.519 --> 00:24:47.799 had his shaes, but he was ocd very clearly, you know, 380 00:24:47.880 --> 00:24:50.119 had to touch. They would try to leave to go 381 00:24:50.160 --> 00:24:51.680 on tour and he'd have to go up and down 382 00:24:51.720 --> 00:24:54.680 the steps of his apartment, like for an hour, touching 383 00:24:54.720 --> 00:25:00.640 certain things over and over. Sometimes. You know, Johnny, who 384 00:25:00.640 --> 00:25:04.160 found Jolly intolerable, was his own kind of OCD. He 385 00:25:04.240 --> 00:25:07.519 was obsessed with baseball statistics to the point that it 386 00:25:07.599 --> 00:25:11.480 was like reams and rims of of notebooks, you know, 387 00:25:11.559 --> 00:25:12.799 keeping track of everything. 388 00:25:13.839 --> 00:25:14.000 Uh. 389 00:25:14.440 --> 00:25:21.440 Tommy was probably depressive, seem seemed like and d D 390 00:25:22.680 --> 00:25:30.039 was a mystery hard to tell bipolar, perhaps not schizophrenic, 391 00:25:30.079 --> 00:25:34.359 but people all everyone commented on how he could turn. 392 00:25:35.000 --> 00:25:37.759 There were like two d d's, you know, this sweet, innocent, 393 00:25:38.359 --> 00:25:41.920 almost childlike to the point of that being almost creepy, like, 394 00:25:41.960 --> 00:25:47.359 how was this he not more you know, grown up 395 00:25:48.200 --> 00:25:52.000 and a kind of cruel uh, you know, violent character, 396 00:25:53.440 --> 00:25:56.759 very talented, hugely talented, also hugely important to their moones. 397 00:25:56.759 --> 00:25:58.119 So I don't mean to make it out Tommy was 398 00:25:58.160 --> 00:26:00.720 their Moones, not by far. You know, of the Beatles, 399 00:26:00.720 --> 00:26:03.440 they got to dislike each other, an the Ramones ever 400 00:26:03.640 --> 00:26:06.519 liked each other that much. You see those early films. 401 00:26:06.519 --> 00:26:08.440