WEBVTT 1 00:00:03.520 --> 00:00:06.919 And we're back with another episode. But we have got 2 00:00:06.919 --> 00:00:11.880 three of us, but we haven't got the loud, annoying one, so. 3 00:00:12.240 --> 00:00:13.400 We've traded him in. 4 00:00:14.400 --> 00:00:16.079 Yeah, well he's a bit busy at the moment anyway, 5 00:00:16.120 --> 00:00:18.280 isn't he. 6 00:00:17.320 --> 00:00:21.600 He's really busy. I actually called him, this is Richard 7 00:00:21.679 --> 00:00:25.920 Nigas we're talking about. I called him, yes, work it out, yeah, 8 00:00:26.199 --> 00:00:30.000 just in case, And he said, oh, I can't be long. 9 00:00:30.120 --> 00:00:34.320 Chum always calls me chum. Weird. It can't be long, chum. 10 00:00:34.560 --> 00:00:37.479 I'm actually just waiting on a call from my agent, 11 00:00:38.479 --> 00:00:41.600 and I just I just said to him, do you 12 00:00:41.679 --> 00:00:45.520 hear yourself? Do you hear what you're saying? I said, 13 00:00:45.520 --> 00:00:48.719 I missed the old Hedge. Lad Niga's not the celebrity 14 00:00:48.719 --> 00:00:51.960 hedge lad Nigas, he's You're change man, You're a change man. 15 00:00:52.039 --> 00:00:52.759 I don't like it. 16 00:00:53.079 --> 00:00:55.320 You can tell it's after Hedge season because when you 17 00:00:55.439 --> 00:00:58.240 ring him, he's on the phone for an hour as well. 18 00:00:58.359 --> 00:01:00.439 If it's if he does speak to your he's not 19 00:01:00.479 --> 00:01:04.280 got his call from the celebrity celebrity afterwards. He's just 20 00:01:04.319 --> 00:01:06.000 on the phone for an hour, whereas when you're ring 21 00:01:06.079 --> 00:01:09.280 him from September through to the end of March, you'll go, yeah, 22 00:01:09.280 --> 00:01:11.280 what is it? Yeah? Yeah, fine, do it right, I've 23 00:01:11.280 --> 00:01:13.480 got to go. And that's it. And that's all we'll hear. 24 00:01:13.799 --> 00:01:16.480 Already give you half hour. Why you hear Richard Gold 25 00:01:16.599 --> 00:01:21.359 huffing and puffing for chainsaw in the background, carrying him 26 00:01:21.400 --> 00:01:22.719 through the hedge lane season. 27 00:01:23.200 --> 00:01:25.920 Anyway, we're being rude? Should we talk to our guest? 28 00:01:26.959 --> 00:01:30.280 I guess we should. Who's that? Who's that over there? 29 00:01:31.159 --> 00:01:34.640 Patrick gal Braise? I do what do I do? I 30 00:01:34.680 --> 00:01:37.040 do columns, I do all kinds of things. I write 31 00:01:37.079 --> 00:01:41.000 about food, I write about deer. I've just written a book, 32 00:01:41.200 --> 00:01:43.680 a book that is proving to be more controversial than 33 00:01:43.719 --> 00:01:44.719 I anticipated. 34 00:01:45.640 --> 00:01:46.799 I knew it was going to be fun. 35 00:01:46.920 --> 00:01:51.120 It's transpired to be even more enjoyable than I thought 36 00:01:51.120 --> 00:01:51.560 it would be. 37 00:01:52.480 --> 00:01:54.879 Yeah, you wrote one of my favorite things ever, which 38 00:01:54.959 --> 00:01:57.400 was a very simple piece about trying to get a pond, 39 00:01:57.599 --> 00:02:01.920 made the dramas of trying to dig your own pond 40 00:02:01.959 --> 00:02:03.400 because you aren't your own flight pond? 41 00:02:04.120 --> 00:02:05.400 Was that when I was quite young? 42 00:02:06.079 --> 00:02:07.560 I think it was. Yeah, it was a it was 43 00:02:07.599 --> 00:02:09.680 a very simple piece, but it really resonated with me. 44 00:02:09.680 --> 00:02:11.879 I don't know why I do a lot of simple pieces, 45 00:02:11.879 --> 00:02:15.280 and I often forget the pieces that i've that i've 46 00:02:15.319 --> 00:02:18.639 that I've written. Country Life Magazines said they had a 47 00:02:18.680 --> 00:02:22.520 complaint from somebody yesterday who was mentioned in my book, 48 00:02:22.639 --> 00:02:25.759 and they said the detail with which they knew my 49 00:02:25.840 --> 00:02:28.199 sort of back catalog in the magazine of writing was 50 00:02:28.240 --> 00:02:30.400 really amazing. And I said, well, that's you know, that's 51 00:02:30.439 --> 00:02:32.039 fascinating because I sort of finished a piece and then 52 00:02:32.080 --> 00:02:33.639 it's and then it's then it's done. 53 00:02:34.199 --> 00:02:36.479 Yeah, you never go back and look at your own stuff. 54 00:02:36.479 --> 00:02:38.719 That's I never we never listened to these. I have 55 00:02:38.759 --> 00:02:42.000 no idea what I've said afterwards in the podcast. The 56 00:02:42.439 --> 00:02:45.680 this is somebody that I've met you two or three times. 57 00:02:45.759 --> 00:02:48.439 It's only been sort of in very brief outside a 58 00:02:48.479 --> 00:02:50.400 talk or a ten or something going oh I like 59 00:02:50.439 --> 00:02:51.879 what you did there, Oh that's great again, and we 60 00:02:51.960 --> 00:02:54.439 moved on. But I think, callum, how long have you 61 00:02:54.479 --> 00:02:55.000 known Patrick? 62 00:02:55.080 --> 00:02:55.280 Now? 63 00:02:57.039 --> 00:03:01.960 We we done shoots several time times in various different 64 00:03:02.080 --> 00:03:06.039 places across the across the length and breadth of the UK. 65 00:03:06.159 --> 00:03:08.240 I suppose shoots. 66 00:03:07.840 --> 00:03:09.639 With cameras, shoots with guns. What are we? 67 00:03:09.800 --> 00:03:10.759 What are we talking about? 68 00:03:10.800 --> 00:03:13.000 Him a bit of both, But I had the thought 69 00:03:13.000 --> 00:03:15.400 this morning. I don't think there's many people that I've 70 00:03:15.439 --> 00:03:18.800 spent such a long time in their company and never 71 00:03:18.960 --> 00:03:20.439 really spoken. 72 00:03:20.039 --> 00:03:20.800 To that much. 73 00:03:21.319 --> 00:03:23.319 We're either we're either. 74 00:03:24.159 --> 00:03:26.080 I mean, I think we had a good chat on 75 00:03:26.120 --> 00:03:29.639 a way out with Mike Swan on the Medway where 76 00:03:29.639 --> 00:03:31.639 we were in the boat, and then after that we 77 00:03:31.639 --> 00:03:37.159 were hunkered down in a wild fowling so we were dead. 78 00:03:40.000 --> 00:03:42.439 God did he always like did he forget the keys 79 00:03:42.439 --> 00:03:45.479 for the lock or something? Is that right? 80 00:03:45.520 --> 00:03:47.719 We went out and then we had to come back. 81 00:03:47.879 --> 00:03:50.879 I think we went out twice. I've been out a 82 00:03:50.879 --> 00:03:52.439 few times with with Mike. 83 00:03:52.879 --> 00:03:56.159 Mike, Oh mad Mike. He's always kind of laughing, grabbing 84 00:03:56.159 --> 00:03:58.560 his balls. He's real. 85 00:04:00.159 --> 00:04:00.759 Love Mike. 86 00:04:01.400 --> 00:04:03.199 Mike's one came to my house on Christmas Eve and 87 00:04:03.240 --> 00:04:06.039 we just hung out for, you know, hours and hours. 88 00:04:06.080 --> 00:04:08.000 You were telling my family all about bumblebees, and my 89 00:04:08.039 --> 00:04:10.000 family like, who the fuck is this guy? 90 00:04:10.120 --> 00:04:13.400 And you know, yeah, wid. 91 00:04:13.879 --> 00:04:18.079 Mike refers to his dog as good bitch, and I 92 00:04:18.199 --> 00:04:21.439 have a video of him and that I had to 93 00:04:21.519 --> 00:04:24.000 cut all the sound out or he says good bitch, 94 00:04:24.120 --> 00:04:27.040 good bitch, good bitch over and over again because it 95 00:04:27.199 --> 00:04:30.519 just it really didn't fit the tempo. It just seems 96 00:04:30.560 --> 00:04:32.600 so odd. Bramble. 97 00:04:32.720 --> 00:04:35.439 That dog is great, very very clever guy, very interesting. 98 00:04:35.439 --> 00:04:39.279 He's one of those people who, you know, the thing 99 00:04:39.319 --> 00:04:41.959 I find so endearing about Mike Swanan for those of 100 00:04:42.000 --> 00:04:44.319 you who don't know him who are listening, he's a 101 00:04:44.439 --> 00:04:48.680 store at the GWCT, and he often says things to 102 00:04:48.759 --> 00:04:50.959 me like, well, you know, if we just make the 103 00:04:51.000 --> 00:04:53.439 case for shooting as part of conservation and so on, 104 00:04:53.480 --> 00:04:56.600 I think people will get it. And I go away, 105 00:04:56.639 --> 00:04:58.399 and I think I wish that was so, you know, 106 00:04:58.519 --> 00:05:01.920 I wish sensible p people with you know, qualifications and 107 00:05:01.920 --> 00:05:04.120 with the expertise that Mike has could just say sensible 108 00:05:04.120 --> 00:05:06.240 things and people will go, you know, that sounds sensible. 109 00:05:06.240 --> 00:05:08.079 Then he sort of he doesn't engage at all in 110 00:05:08.160 --> 00:05:10.639 the kind of culture wars stuff. It's not really a world. 111 00:05:10.639 --> 00:05:12.720 I think that that he kind of recognizes. He just 112 00:05:12.759 --> 00:05:14.240 talks sense and he really cares. 113 00:05:15.000 --> 00:05:16.279 I think it's a bit of a danger if you 114 00:05:16.319 --> 00:05:19.839 only ever speak to other sensible people who all agree 115 00:05:19.879 --> 00:05:22.120 to argue on first principles, then you sort of think 116 00:05:22.160 --> 00:05:23.240 the world works like that. 117 00:05:23.319 --> 00:05:26.399 If you can just get to people exactly and then 118 00:05:26.439 --> 00:05:28.519 and then and then the the you know, the the 119 00:05:28.600 --> 00:05:30.319 other thing you can do is you can spend your 120 00:05:30.319 --> 00:05:32.879 whole time on social media and you go, oh my god, 121 00:05:33.040 --> 00:05:35.920 everyone is a complete nut job, you know, And actually 122 00:05:36.000 --> 00:05:37.959 probably the truth is somewhere between the. 123 00:05:37.959 --> 00:05:41.399 Two of those, right it is you'd like to think so. 124 00:05:41.959 --> 00:05:45.839 Well exactly, yeah, yeah, it's the ninety ten split. 125 00:05:45.920 --> 00:05:48.959 I think probably it's But when you venture out into 126 00:05:49.000 --> 00:05:51.120 the world, you do wonder sometimes, you know, is. 127 00:05:51.079 --> 00:05:53.600 That how do people get dressed in the morning? 128 00:05:54.040 --> 00:05:56.319 Yeah, well sometimes they're not. I mean that our local 129 00:05:56.360 --> 00:05:59.040 supermarket is that to put a sign up saying please 130 00:05:59.079 --> 00:06:01.879 wear clothes when you come in sort of a cardigan 131 00:06:02.000 --> 00:06:06.040 or there's actually a dressing gown doesn't really count anymore. 132 00:06:06.079 --> 00:06:08.360 You wonder you wonder what went wrong there? Which particular 133 00:06:08.360 --> 00:06:12.639 incident inspired that one? 134 00:06:12.959 --> 00:06:15.639 So did you see the guy on I posted on 135 00:06:15.639 --> 00:06:20.920 on x that thought that was very disappointed that Hadrian's 136 00:06:20.959 --> 00:06:24.959 Wall wasn't on part with the Great Wall of China, 137 00:06:26.120 --> 00:06:27.959 And he said that no one seemed to care, and 138 00:06:28.040 --> 00:06:30.120 at one point he saw a sheep just simply hop 139 00:06:30.160 --> 00:06:34.680 over it. That's bad, accept it is. 140 00:06:34.680 --> 00:06:36.399 The Great Wall of China. I mean, I've never been 141 00:06:36.439 --> 00:06:37.959 to China. I don't know if either of you have, 142 00:06:38.079 --> 00:06:40.199 But is it a great Wall of China, an amazing 143 00:06:41.120 --> 00:06:43.680 feature along the whole length of it, or what's the 144 00:06:43.759 --> 00:06:44.920 deal with a Great Wall of China. 145 00:06:45.480 --> 00:06:46.279 I think it's great. 146 00:06:47.639 --> 00:06:49.920 Well, you'd be disappointed if it was. You boil the 147 00:06:49.959 --> 00:06:50.399 money back. 148 00:06:50.680 --> 00:06:53.040 Yeah, it's it's a bit like Hadrian's Wall. It's got 149 00:06:53.079 --> 00:06:54.639 some really good bits, and then it's got some bits 150 00:06:54.639 --> 00:06:56.720 where it's just not there at all, and then it 151 00:06:56.800 --> 00:06:58.959 sort of peters out into the desert at one end 152 00:06:59.000 --> 00:07:00.920 of the sea. At the other it sort of have 153 00:07:00.959 --> 00:07:03.199 you been, I've done bits in the middle of the 154 00:07:03.199 --> 00:07:04.800 Great Wall of China. I used to work for a 155 00:07:04.839 --> 00:07:08.519 company that did you know those horrible corporate charity things 156 00:07:08.560 --> 00:07:10.680 where somebody's going to go and climb kill a Maanjaro 157 00:07:10.879 --> 00:07:13.160 or or do ever's base camp, but they come around 158 00:07:13.199 --> 00:07:15.519 the office trying to get sponsored to pay for that, right. 159 00:07:15.920 --> 00:07:17.319 I was on the other end of that where you 160 00:07:17.439 --> 00:07:19.439 take them out up and do kill a Maanjarro or 161 00:07:19.560 --> 00:07:21.160 ever his base camp. And we did Great Wall of 162 00:07:21.199 --> 00:07:23.920 China one year, and it was weird because you stayed 163 00:07:23.920 --> 00:07:27.639 in the same hotel for ten days and every day 164 00:07:27.680 --> 00:07:29.639 you just got the coach back and forth out to 165 00:07:29.680 --> 00:07:32.759 wherever you finish the walk the day before, and you 166 00:07:32.920 --> 00:07:35.160 just have to take a slight longer coach journey every 167 00:07:35.240 --> 00:07:37.279 day to get to the end. And you were staying 168 00:07:37.319 --> 00:07:39.279 in the same hotel, so the sense of travel was 169 00:07:39.759 --> 00:07:42.360 completely overshadowed by the fact you're just in the same 170 00:07:42.399 --> 00:07:43.360 monkey hotel room. 171 00:07:44.279 --> 00:07:46.720 I always think, I always think how it would be 172 00:07:46.759 --> 00:07:48.519 deeply ashamed to be one of those people who goes 173 00:07:48.519 --> 00:07:50.319 around an office and ask for people to give you 174 00:07:50.319 --> 00:07:52.439 a quid for whatever. But almost every day I go 175 00:07:52.439 --> 00:07:53.800 around the office and ask people if they want to 176 00:07:53.839 --> 00:07:55.519 go for lunch with me, and it's usually a note 177 00:07:55.519 --> 00:07:58.120 as well. And actually, you know, thinking about it, that's 178 00:07:58.240 --> 00:07:59.720 kind of just just a shameful. 179 00:07:59.720 --> 00:08:01.519 Really, are you trying to get them to pay for 180 00:08:01.600 --> 00:08:02.279 lunch as well? 181 00:08:02.480 --> 00:08:04.519 Well, No, I'd happily pay for them to have lunch. 182 00:08:04.560 --> 00:08:06.839 But actually even that, even that doesn't get them to 183 00:08:07.600 --> 00:08:09.319 come out, so, you know, so it goes. 184 00:08:09.680 --> 00:08:13.000 So you've written a book, this is this is your second. 185 00:08:13.000 --> 00:08:16.160 I've written two books. Yeah, not all chat GPT you 186 00:08:16.199 --> 00:08:18.959 know some of it. I even myself have you know, 187 00:08:19.040 --> 00:08:22.319 did a little bits in the star Not true by 188 00:08:22.360 --> 00:08:24.480 the way, that's not listening and my policy. 189 00:08:24.519 --> 00:08:25.040 That's not true. 190 00:08:25.120 --> 00:08:26.000 Is that true? 191 00:08:26.079 --> 00:08:28.480 I think soon it's all going to be chat GPT anyway, 192 00:08:28.519 --> 00:08:29.480 isn't it. 193 00:08:29.480 --> 00:08:30.600 It's a really interesting point. 194 00:08:30.639 --> 00:08:33.120 I mean I read the audio book for my book, 195 00:08:33.240 --> 00:08:37.399 which you know, if anybody listening likes audiobooks, get onto audible. 196 00:08:37.440 --> 00:08:41.360 But I think quite soon AI will be able to 197 00:08:41.399 --> 00:08:44.360 read audiobooks, which is amazing. You just you know, you 198 00:08:44.399 --> 00:08:45.720 just give a sample of your voice and then it 199 00:08:45.759 --> 00:08:47.080 will and then it will do it. And for all 200 00:08:47.120 --> 00:08:49.600 of those kind of slightly fourth rate out of work 201 00:08:49.639 --> 00:08:52.320 actors who you know, put bread on the table by 202 00:08:52.320 --> 00:08:54.120 reading audio books, it's quite frightening. 203 00:08:54.679 --> 00:08:55.440 Yeah, for sure. 204 00:08:56.039 --> 00:08:59.600 I just finished listening to your audio book and in 205 00:08:59.639 --> 00:09:02.120 the very first section I've got something to bring up 206 00:09:02.120 --> 00:09:05.639 with you that you said Rowan rather than Rowan try. 207 00:09:05.759 --> 00:09:09.879 Yeah, that's probably I mean my strong Scottish accent. 208 00:09:10.240 --> 00:09:11.720 I think that's probably where that comes from. 209 00:09:11.960 --> 00:09:14.480 Yeah, I think would they would say, yeah, a row 210 00:09:14.519 --> 00:09:15.600 and tree. 211 00:09:15.679 --> 00:09:17.320 I just it just took me out of it completely. 212 00:09:17.519 --> 00:09:20.639 I just had to get through the next ten hours 213 00:09:20.480 --> 00:09:21.320 that rattling along. 214 00:09:22.240 --> 00:09:24.559 No, that's interesting, isn't it. That probably is a sort 215 00:09:24.559 --> 00:09:26.440 of you know, I grew up in Scotland. I don't 216 00:09:26.440 --> 00:09:28.919 have a particularly Scottish accent, but it probably is a 217 00:09:29.000 --> 00:09:30.320 round tree, they would say. 218 00:09:30.559 --> 00:09:33.000 I think it's only the Welsh that call it rowan anyway, 219 00:09:33.039 --> 00:09:34.320 because yeah. 220 00:09:34.519 --> 00:09:38.320 In Wales do they think that row andry rowan trees 221 00:09:38.399 --> 00:09:39.159 keep witches away? 222 00:09:40.039 --> 00:09:43.480 It's witches, but it's also strongly related to churchyards and 223 00:09:43.600 --> 00:09:47.039 holy sites, and so it's sort of it's part of 224 00:09:47.080 --> 00:09:49.639 the I don't think it's a national tree, but it's 225 00:09:49.639 --> 00:09:51.240 like part of it. It's like the next one down from 226 00:09:51.279 --> 00:09:54.200 oak in terms of the world. People are going to 227 00:09:54.240 --> 00:09:55.960 write in and tell me I'm wrong, So let's get 228 00:09:56.000 --> 00:10:00.799 them to I direct that ire at you. What's this 229 00:10:00.960 --> 00:10:03.399 second book, what's it called and what's it about? 230 00:10:04.159 --> 00:10:08.279 So the book is called Uncommon Ground, Rethinking our relationship 231 00:10:08.279 --> 00:10:12.279 with the countryside, And the title that I was originally 232 00:10:12.320 --> 00:10:15.559 going to go with was their country the Places that 233 00:10:15.600 --> 00:10:19.399 divideas And I have to say I think that working 234 00:10:19.480 --> 00:10:21.720 title gets to the heart of what the book is about. 235 00:10:22.279 --> 00:10:25.399 It's about who gets to access the countryside, what they 236 00:10:25.399 --> 00:10:28.480 can do there, how connected we feel to the countryside, 237 00:10:28.799 --> 00:10:32.480 and the way that the countryside inspires senses of identity. 238 00:10:33.320 --> 00:10:35.080 I mean, if I let me just tell you a 239 00:10:35.080 --> 00:10:38.399 little story about the preface. So I went to go 240 00:10:38.440 --> 00:10:41.960 and see these two brothers in Hull who spent their 241 00:10:42.000 --> 00:10:45.840 working life in the shipyard there, and they have spent 242 00:10:46.080 --> 00:10:48.480 all the spare time they've they've got during the season 243 00:10:48.720 --> 00:10:52.919 out wild fouling, out shooting pink footed geese. And the 244 00:10:53.000 --> 00:10:55.879 guy who founded their wild fowling club, a guy called 245 00:10:55.919 --> 00:11:00.840 Stanley Duncan, who effectively found the basque. Actually they go 246 00:11:01.000 --> 00:11:03.679 to his grave when the pinkford of geese return in 247 00:11:03.720 --> 00:11:06.840 the autumn, with feathers that that are there on the 248 00:11:06.840 --> 00:11:08.720 marsh when the geese return, and they leave them at 249 00:11:08.720 --> 00:11:11.600 the side of the grave. And I realized when I 250 00:11:11.639 --> 00:11:13.399 was there that for them, the geese, they're not just 251 00:11:13.480 --> 00:11:15.679 like a quarry or something to eat or something to 252 00:11:15.720 --> 00:11:18.919 shoot out that almost like a kind of deity, you know, 253 00:11:19.039 --> 00:11:21.720 their sport, you know, they would call it. That is 254 00:11:22.000 --> 00:11:24.600 a kind of goose worship. And it's how they connect 255 00:11:24.679 --> 00:11:27.519 to this place and obviously places very far away in 256 00:11:27.600 --> 00:11:30.360 terms of the birds migration, and that kind of I 257 00:11:30.360 --> 00:11:32.720 think gets to the heart of the book. But I mean, 258 00:11:32.759 --> 00:11:36.159 you've read it, so you can tell me what it's about. 259 00:11:37.159 --> 00:11:39.200 Well, I don't know whether I've got the right take 260 00:11:39.200 --> 00:11:42.000 on this, but it seems like you sort of did 261 00:11:42.000 --> 00:11:45.120 a Louis through on the on the Right to Rome. 262 00:11:44.960 --> 00:11:50.480 Campaign in part. In part, I mean it's not it's 263 00:11:50.559 --> 00:11:53.440 been kind of Right to Rome have definitely felt that, 264 00:11:53.519 --> 00:11:55.039 you know, lots of it is about them, and I 265 00:11:55.039 --> 00:11:58.399 would say they're there in part, and they're are kind 266 00:11:58.399 --> 00:12:02.080 of jumping off point in a way. But but yeah, no, 267 00:12:02.240 --> 00:12:04.200 certainly I got I got down and dirty with the 268 00:12:04.240 --> 00:12:04.759 right Jerome. 269 00:12:05.080 --> 00:12:07.879 Well, one of the things you sort of repeat, well 270 00:12:07.919 --> 00:12:11.320 not repeat, but you you got back to towards the waight. Yeah, 271 00:12:11.360 --> 00:12:13.000 I'm trying to get more words right because we were 272 00:12:13.320 --> 00:12:15.440 an actual writer and I'm somebody who struggles with the 273 00:12:15.480 --> 00:12:21.039 English language. That you say that it's the loudest voices 274 00:12:21.080 --> 00:12:24.039 are the ones that we listened to most within that 275 00:12:24.039 --> 00:12:25.799 that that world, And it does seemed that Right to 276 00:12:25.879 --> 00:12:30.519 Rome have been very good at making themselves that loudest 277 00:12:30.600 --> 00:12:32.720 voice of the voice that's listened to the most. 278 00:12:33.600 --> 00:12:35.080 Yeah, I mean one hundred percent. I mean the thing 279 00:12:35.080 --> 00:12:36.519 I would pick up on there, I had a really 280 00:12:36.519 --> 00:12:40.639 interesting I had a really interesting time on Radio four 281 00:12:40.679 --> 00:12:42.720 a couple of days ago now with a guy called 282 00:12:42.799 --> 00:12:45.440 Robert McFarlane, who lots of listeners will have heard of. 283 00:12:45.519 --> 00:12:49.039 He's he's one of the great nature writers of our time. 284 00:12:49.799 --> 00:12:53.919 And yeah, we were, we would. What I wanted to 285 00:12:53.919 --> 00:12:55.600 say to him is we were talking about rights. He 286 00:12:55.639 --> 00:12:58.639 was talking about the rights of rivers, and the rights 287 00:12:58.639 --> 00:13:00.399 of forests came up and so on, and I was 288 00:13:00.399 --> 00:13:02.559 talking about the right of people to be listened to. 289 00:13:03.080 --> 00:13:05.320 So I think we've heard an awful lot from Right 290 00:13:05.360 --> 00:13:07.879 to Rome campaigners. A lot of them have tremendous connections. 291 00:13:07.919 --> 00:13:10.480 They write for publications like the New Statesmen, like The Guardian. 292 00:13:10.759 --> 00:13:11.399 You know, they're not. 293 00:13:12.879 --> 00:13:16.600 Sort of you know, factory hands who are kind of, 294 00:13:17.399 --> 00:13:20.240 you know, oppressed. I don't believe. And what I wanted 295 00:13:20.279 --> 00:13:21.759 to go and do was to talk to people in 296 00:13:21.799 --> 00:13:23.840 the countryside, those who work and live in the countryside 297 00:13:23.919 --> 00:13:26.279 about their perception. So I went down to Dartmore and 298 00:13:26.320 --> 00:13:30.120 I spoke to a young guy, a farmer's son, and 299 00:13:30.159 --> 00:13:31.600 I said to him, what do you think of Right 300 00:13:31.639 --> 00:13:34.360 to Rome? A very shy young guy, and he always 301 00:13:34.360 --> 00:13:36.639 couldn't look at me, but he said, I think they're 302 00:13:36.679 --> 00:13:38.480 just a bunch of rich Londoners trying to tell us 303 00:13:38.519 --> 00:13:40.480 what to do. Now, you know, I'm not saying that 304 00:13:40.480 --> 00:13:44.240 that's absolutely correct. I'm not saying it's correct in every instance. 305 00:13:44.320 --> 00:13:46.039 I mean, Right to Rome is a mass movement. There 306 00:13:46.039 --> 00:13:48.759 are lots of them. They're not all rich Londoners. But 307 00:13:48.960 --> 00:13:51.320 it's fascinating why he said that, you know, why does 308 00:13:51.399 --> 00:13:55.279 he think that? And the other moment that is sort 309 00:13:55.279 --> 00:13:58.480 of related to that is we were there on Dartmore 310 00:13:58.799 --> 00:14:01.919 and Guy Shrubsol was dressing the crowd and there was 311 00:14:01.960 --> 00:14:03.919 a farmer who was just trying to get through, just 312 00:14:03.960 --> 00:14:06.120 a farmer smoking a rolled up cigarette, and it was 313 00:14:06.120 --> 00:14:10.519 the most terrific image. And his wife, I assume, was 314 00:14:10.600 --> 00:14:13.600 quite agitated and people were being slightly unpleasant to her 315 00:14:14.240 --> 00:14:16.679 in quite a superior way. And I just thought, this 316 00:14:16.720 --> 00:14:19.600 is fascinating because you've got people who are kind of 317 00:14:19.639 --> 00:14:21.919 purporting to be peasants. I mean, that's a word that 318 00:14:21.919 --> 00:14:24.200 guy shrubs All uses again and again. You know, we're 319 00:14:24.200 --> 00:14:27.799 the peasants. And actually you've got some you know, probably 320 00:14:27.840 --> 00:14:30.960 tenant farmer just trying to make you know, enough money 321 00:14:30.960 --> 00:14:33.120 to kind of feed his family, who can't get through 322 00:14:33.159 --> 00:14:35.399 to do his job. Because all of these you know, 323 00:14:35.480 --> 00:14:38.240 sort of Oxbridge grows are here, and that's a really 324 00:14:38.320 --> 00:14:41.080 fascinating dynamic, and it's been a dynamic that they have 325 00:14:41.600 --> 00:14:45.480 absolutely hated in terms of the way that the book 326 00:14:45.519 --> 00:14:46.240 has come together. 327 00:14:46.799 --> 00:14:51.720 But those tenant farmers are probably the people that they're 328 00:14:51.720 --> 00:14:54.200 taking out on them, but they're not really the ones 329 00:14:54.879 --> 00:14:59.879 that are. They're just kind of against them in a way, 330 00:15:00.080 --> 00:15:07.360 the people that are on the estate enforcing potential cut 331 00:15:07.360 --> 00:15:10.720 off zones right to where people can't go. So it's 332 00:15:10.720 --> 00:15:13.840 not necessarily they're against the tenant farmer. But what they 333 00:15:13.879 --> 00:15:16.799 stand for and the sort of the organization they're in 334 00:15:16.960 --> 00:15:18.240 is that not well. 335 00:15:18.279 --> 00:15:19.960 I think the point is is that is that they're 336 00:15:19.960 --> 00:15:22.879 not against the tenant farmer. They don't see the tenant farmer. 337 00:15:23.240 --> 00:15:25.559 So when they look at a piece of land, they 338 00:15:25.600 --> 00:15:28.039 see somebody in a big house who they've got to 339 00:15:28.360 --> 00:15:31.000 scrap with. They don't see the person who actually works 340 00:15:31.240 --> 00:15:31.840 on the land. 341 00:15:32.120 --> 00:15:32.320 You know. 342 00:15:32.360 --> 00:15:34.159 And there is a thing and I write about this, 343 00:15:34.279 --> 00:15:36.679 I mean, landowners get a lot of as Mark Avery, 344 00:15:37.559 --> 00:15:39.879 the Campaigner and Conservation has put it in his review, 345 00:15:40.120 --> 00:15:42.240 a lot of brick bats. There are landowners in this country. 346 00:15:42.240 --> 00:15:44.080 They don't even know what they own, you know, to them, 347 00:15:44.120 --> 00:15:46.440 it's just a way to sort of store wealth in 348 00:15:46.519 --> 00:15:49.600 quite a tax efficient ways. Still, you know, I've worked 349 00:15:49.639 --> 00:15:52.759 with landowners along fields and they've said to me, do 350 00:15:52.840 --> 00:15:54.960 I own that bit next door? Because I stalk there 351 00:15:55.039 --> 00:15:56.919 or whatever. So I don't know, mate, it's your it's 352 00:15:56.960 --> 00:16:00.759 your land. But there are people on the land eking out, 353 00:16:01.200 --> 00:16:04.480 you know, a really really meager existence. And those are 354 00:16:04.480 --> 00:16:07.440 the people who land access campaigners don't see. And I 355 00:16:07.480 --> 00:16:09.799 think that that's a fascinating thing, right, the kind of 356 00:16:09.840 --> 00:16:13.080 rural working class are not seen, and when they're imagine, 357 00:16:13.120 --> 00:16:17.000 they're just seen as kind of lackeys in a feudal way. 358 00:16:18.600 --> 00:16:21.960 So it's yeah, so it's so interesting, so wrong on 359 00:16:22.000 --> 00:16:22.840 so many counts. 360 00:16:23.360 --> 00:16:27.919 So you open the book with the the kinder trespass, 361 00:16:29.240 --> 00:16:33.440 not what recreation, but the meeting in Hayfield and the 362 00:16:33.440 --> 00:16:38.600 the discussion there with about was it Benny Rathbone, Benny Rothman. 363 00:16:37.600 --> 00:16:38.720 Bennie Roman, Yeah, yeah. 364 00:16:38.600 --> 00:16:42.159 Yeah, And who was the almost sort of held up 365 00:16:42.159 --> 00:16:44.679 as this deified figure of access and this is. 366 00:16:44.639 --> 00:16:46.799 Well yeah, and I mean, and I suspect and I 367 00:16:46.799 --> 00:16:49.120 think he's a fascinating guy. A very important part of 368 00:16:49.399 --> 00:16:53.120 working class history was he a member of the Young 369 00:16:53.120 --> 00:16:53.799 Communist Party. 370 00:16:53.799 --> 00:16:54.399 I think he was. 371 00:16:54.480 --> 00:16:57.080 Yeah, and what's the can you sort of lay out 372 00:16:57.120 --> 00:16:59.360 for the audience, because I'm very conscious that it's that 373 00:16:59.440 --> 00:17:01.519 difficult thing because I know this subject quite well. I'm 374 00:17:01.559 --> 00:17:03.200 trying not to just say. 375 00:17:04.119 --> 00:17:07.079 What the hell are you jogging about? Well, everybody will 376 00:17:07.119 --> 00:17:11.359 know I'm a rambler. I'm a rambler from Manchester where 377 00:17:11.440 --> 00:17:13.200 you know. And if they don't, they should so so 378 00:17:13.279 --> 00:17:17.000 you and McCole was the I'm going to use the 379 00:17:17.039 --> 00:17:19.279 wrong title, but it was something like the head of propaganda, right, 380 00:17:19.319 --> 00:17:21.319 and he wrote that song. He was considered to be 381 00:17:21.319 --> 00:17:24.480 a particularly dangerous person. But they went out there the 382 00:17:24.680 --> 00:17:28.000 the that land was it was it was a grouse 383 00:17:28.000 --> 00:17:31.000 shooting estate, right, And they went up into the hills 384 00:17:31.039 --> 00:17:33.880 and they fought it out with the gamekeepers there. There's 385 00:17:33.880 --> 00:17:35.720 a guy called Wolfy, really interesting guy. Lots of them 386 00:17:35.759 --> 00:17:37.839 went off to fight in the Spanish Civil War. So 387 00:17:37.839 --> 00:17:39.839 when I was there in Hayfield, there were people dressed 388 00:17:39.880 --> 00:17:41.039 up as though they were going to fight in the 389 00:17:41.039 --> 00:17:43.960 Spanish Civil War. And they're quite kind of comic figures, 390 00:17:43.960 --> 00:17:45.960 some of these people in a way. It's kind of yeah, 391 00:17:45.960 --> 00:17:48.119 I mean, they get very upset, but it is cosplay 392 00:17:48.160 --> 00:17:50.079 to a degree, and you know, it's kind of terrific. 393 00:17:50.680 --> 00:17:53.680 You know, it's a wonderful part of British heritage. But 394 00:17:54.960 --> 00:17:57.319 I mean, one of the things I think is interesting 395 00:17:57.319 --> 00:17:59.839 to dwell On is that, like, if you grew up 396 00:17:59.880 --> 00:18:03.160 around kinder Scout, then you couldn't go up into the hills, right, 397 00:18:03.440 --> 00:18:05.480 if you grow up around Winter Hill, you couldn't really 398 00:18:05.480 --> 00:18:09.680 go up into the hills either, And these people really 399 00:18:09.799 --> 00:18:11.359 wanted to be able to do that, and their lives 400 00:18:11.359 --> 00:18:13.720 were hard, their lives were miserable, and there's a there's 401 00:18:13.720 --> 00:18:15.880