Speaker 1: What's going on? Thank you so much for listening to
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Speaker 2: Right now, very special guest, Donald Vandervart. I've known him
for many years. But to give you a little bit
of background, here's what's fun. I always like this because
if you're talking to him, you would never know this,
and he would never tell you this because he's got
a very great attitude about stuff. But he had a
bachelor's degree in chemistry from unc Unfortunately he did go
to Chapel Hill. Then he went on to get a
jurisd doctorate from the same play. So he becomes a
lawyer and actually North Carolina Central. Then gets a master's
degree from chemical engineering at NCSU, so he finally got
right in the head about that. Then picked up a
doctorate in chemical engineering from university of Cambridge.
Speaker 3: In spite of all that. Not really a nerdy guy.
Welcome to the show. How the heck are you a Donald?
Speaker 4: Don Quite well, Chaed, and thank you for having me on.
Speaker 2: It's just it's just a I don't know how you
found time, and yet somehow you're still, you know, fairly young.
I don't know how you pulled all that off, but
you did.
Speaker 3: Nonetheless.
Speaker 2: Now you also were the head of the Department of
Environmental Quality. You were the first one to rise through
the ranks of that organization as an actual scientist, and
were appointed in the Republican administration.
Speaker 4: That's right, that's right, and served as a science advisor
to the governor and then eventually secretary under McCrory.
Speaker 2: Yes, so I said all that to say to ask
you a couple of questions.
Speaker 3: You've been at the forefront.
Speaker 2: You know, I knew you prior to that time as
being the grand poobah, where all of a sudden you
were more difficult to get ahold of.
Speaker 3: I'm kidding. You were always accessible. But what did you
cause you saw?
Speaker 2: I remember well having discussions with you were you were
very concerned about the encroachment of using the environment as
a way to control, minimize effect you know, businesses in
people's rights and things of that nature. And so do
you still see that as problematic because I think you
can have both. You can protect the environment and not
get in the way. What did you see in your
time at DEQ.
Speaker 4: Well, I mean, first of all, it's really a synergy,
a synergistic effect. On the one hand, I don't think
and America is blessed with having a strong economy, a
strong economic model that is free enterprise. But you know,
I think that part of that is protecting people's health
and having a robust environmental management program. But you can't
have a robust environmental program without having a robust a
robust economy. So yeah, I think you can have both.
But it's it's you know, And one of the one
of the things I always would say at my time
at the d EQ was, you know, as a regulator,
the easiest thing in the world is to say, oh,
you got to reduce your emissions, you got to do this,
you got to clean this up. But you know that
isn't the job of environmental management organization. What we have
to do is is way and balance the effects of
regulation on the economy and to make sure that the
economy can sustain continued protection of the environment. So it's
actually a pretty difficult job in that regard, and that's
I think that's the challenge. And so in some cases,
like the previous Biden administration, I think what you saw
was people just simply saying, oh, this is easy. I'll
just tell you to stop, you know, stop a knitting, X, Y,
and Z, to the exclusion of considering the impacts. So
I think what you're seeing in the current administration is
a is an effort to rebalance those those two very
important requirements saving saving the environment and protecting public health,
but maintaining economy so that you can actually do that in.
Speaker 3: Your time at d EQ, D E, n R.
Speaker 2: For those of us who will then have to remember that,
you know, I'm sure you're well aware of the Coastal
Area Management Authority. You're well aware of the Federal Army
Corps of Engineers, and the and and then the process
by which you have to deal with those agencies and
d EQ and how these mesh together in a way
that all of us have to kind of abide by this.
Do you see those rules as becoming better or do
you see those rules as becoming worse, or do you
see many of them that are outdated that.
Speaker 3: Need to be updated. Kind of give us your take
on those kind of agencies.
Speaker 4: And that's a great point, and I think a General
Assembly a number of years ago made a great move
in requiring and it sounds like a long term effect,
but it isn't. It actually is a pretty pretty reasonable cycle.
Every ten years, the General Assembly has required all the
agencies to review their rules and make sure that the
rules are still needed. And if they are still needed,
they're going to go through rule making and get all
their scrutiny and the benefits of that process. But if
they're not, they're going to jettison them. And and prior
to that reg reform it was reg reform bills, actually
a regulatory reviews what they termed as. But prior to
that you would have these these ancient rules that have
been superseded many times over by new rules, including layered
on federal rules, and without any kind of regard to
trying to integrate them or try to remove the redundancies.
And so my hat's off to the legislature in that
in that regard, because in fact we're now starting the
second cycle of that review, and it's going to be
just like it was in the first cycle. It's going
to be even more robust this time, and it's going
to be extremely beneficial. So yeah, that's that's absolutely a challenge.
Speaker 2: How do you see the role Obviously, we've had two
terms of Cooper and then now we're in the first
of Josh Stein. I think Josh Stein anyways, is a
new Democrat relative to Cooper, who really I think hated Republicans.
It seems like Stein didn't grow up in an era
where he hated them. They were just the opposing party.
How do you see the role of Deaner moving or
excuse me, d EQ moving forward? How do you see
the rules? Do you see it becoming worse better? I mean,
I know you mentioned the legislature, but there's hey, the
executive branch is the executive branch.
Speaker 4: It's probably a little early to tell on the current
Stein administration. I think I would agree with you, Especially
in Cooper's second term, it became I think it became
overly burdensome in his second term especially, and I think
you know, some indications are already in that Governor Stein
is is uh is I think a little bit more
in tune to some of the points I made earlier,
which is that they that that this that these are
not these shouldn't be conflicting goals. They should they should
be synergistic, and so I'm cautiously optimistic. I think. I
think probably even more important, however, is the distinction between
the Biden because so much of what we do in
the environment is essentially implement federal programs. And I think
the distinction between the Biden administration and the Trump administration
is going to be much more uh market and more
more obvious and more needed because of some of the
very aggressive steps that Biden took, especially towards the end
and and and that, and that will be a great
thing for the environment, but also because a lot of them,
as I think you alluded to it, a lot of times,
it's just difficult to figure out what the requirement are
because you've got so many overlapping agencies. And and I
think that that's one of the things that the Zelden
Group is going to try to streamline and make more
productive and more efficient.
Speaker 2: You referred to Lee zeld In, the head of the EPA,
who has said, hey, we want to they want to
unleash America's energy potential. At the same time, they've got
millions of acres of federally protected lands, and they think
that these things can work in harmony. I mean, obviously
the the and war situation. You know, millions of acres
up there in Alaska that people want to portray it
as almost like pristine wilderness like Montana, but it's much
more arctic tundra. It's very different. It's very stark landscape
than than Montana would be. Now again, we've got to
unleash the energy potential where we're we're seeing that change.
You know, do you ever see a time that that
the two sides And I spend a great deal of
the show saying it looks like the two sides are
moving further apart rather than in a way in harmony
to say, hey, we have some we have the same problem.
We just need to figure out how to solve it.
Speaker 3: How do you see that?
Speaker 2: I mean, I'm a conservationist, so I'm looking at wildlife.
I'm a big, big advocate, but I see deer population surging.
I don't remember seeing deer as a kid. I see
thousands of them now. The same thing with wild boring
I mean not wild board of these feral pigs. But
you've got wild turkey.
Speaker 3: I don't remember seeing wild turkey as a kid.
Speaker 2: We've got them all over the state now I count
them in the dozens as I'm going by and seeing flock.
So it looks like in some ways wildlife is doing
quite well in North Carolina. What's your take on that?
Because I know that Wildlife Resources was not under your
you know your area. But what do you say to
all this because that's where these two things intersect.
Speaker 4: Well, we did have fisheries under us.
Speaker 2: And you tell it, Donald, I didn't even realize that
I was enjoying the break, So I mean the time
so much I need to go to break. So stay
with me because I want to continue where we are
with Donald vanderv Our, former to equ Secretary.
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Speaker 3: We'll get right to it.
Speaker 2: We have a very special guest with us, and it's
been great to have Donald Vandervar he former head of
d EQ for the State of North Carolina, as someone
who's been in the organ had been in the organization
for many years prior to that, and we were talking
about a variety of way the way the rules really
have made it in encumbered businesses and individuals, and the
way agencies kind of work in tandem.
Speaker 3: To to make it more difficult.
Speaker 2: But at the same time the legislature has authorized some
bills to go through and look at hey, are these
outdated or do they know rules that are no longer germane?
Speaker 3: Can we get rid of them? Now? What I was
asking as we.
Speaker 2: Went to the break and didn't realize because it's just
fun talking to Donald, is that you know when I
look around, when any of you are driving around, especially
at done at don and dusk, you see tons of
deer out there, more than ever before. You see more
wild Turkey than ever before. We got bare eastern and
western North Carolina moving toward the center part of the state,
bald Head Island down the coast kills about you know,
five dozen deer every couple of years.
Speaker 3: Because there are so many of them, they.
Speaker 2: Send them to the food bank after they hunt them
at night. So, Donald, what do you happening? It looks
like things from an environmental everybody wants to be either
an environmentalist or a conservationist. Everybody wants to see more wildlife.
What's going on out there? In your opinion?
Speaker 4: Well, and as I was going to say, in my time,
we had the marine fisheries under us, and what I
came to learn in that context is that the science
is actually pretty complicated. And so when when you a
shortage of a certain species is perceived or is measured,
you can take them, you can take some action. And
the problem is is that the action is it's not
the science isn't really that precise, so that if you
take an action, you're not exactly sure what's going to happen.
And it could be and I'm not saying that this
is this is the case, but it could be that,
you know, you all of a sudden have an explosion
or an increase, a greater increase than you anticipated. And
so the science has to be ongoing and it has
to to check and say, you know, maybe we went
too far, maybe we ought to open up the hunting
season a little bit longer. So all I can tell
you on that is that the science is a lot
tougher than you might think, and it's also a lot
less accurate. So that may some of your sort of
heuristic observations may in fact be true, and they may
be true because they're trying to dial in the level
of protection needed.
Speaker 2: Uh yeah, and certainly that's antecdotal. Again, when I travel
up and I can you know, when I was a kid,
I never saw wild turkey even or deer, and now
they're everywhere. I mean where I live on Oak Island.
Speaker 3: You know they're deer on the island.
Speaker 2: They swim across the canal that if you try to landscape,
they will eat everything. These are like giant squirrels without
the fuzzy tails. So they're doing it looks like they're
doing quite well. And not just those species, but many others.
There's an awareness about wildlife that here before I hadn't
seen when I was a kid.
Speaker 3: Spending time. I'm in various parts of the state.
Speaker 2: So that being said again, that's where environment and wildlife
and marine fisheries and all these people kind of coalesce
because their goals should be the same. But more often
than not, it gets expressed as egregious anti property rights.
Speaker 3: Where I live.
Speaker 2: I can't have a fire pit where I live. I
can't put a tree in my front yard because that's
right away where I live. I'm not allowed to put
an ac or a heater in my first floor, not
allowed to have controlled space there, even if it means
stopping mold and mildew. So it looks like in my
world at least it's very, very highly highly regulated.
Speaker 4: Well, and I could go back to the environment generally.
When I first entered the field, I can tell you
that there was there was a real need to start
cleaning up our waterways, are air and some of the
landfill situations. And we've been wildly successful in cleaning our
land our sea. It's been a dramatic improvement. Now, you know,
by analogy to what I said about the fisheries, you know,
it may be and I think in some cases it
is the case that that you know, the organizations have
been sort of the victim of their own success, and
in some cases you really do need to recalibrate where
those requirements are. And I think going back the legislature's
attempt to have these rules were visited makes all the
sense in the world, and it's going to be a
better situation for businesses and I think for the environment
by clarifying a lot of these and getting rid of
some of the rules that just don't make any sense anymore.
Speaker 2: Well, again, our guest has been Donald van Dervarr. He
is a former head of the North Kline Department of
Environmental Quality. Rose to the ranks the first scientist ever
to hold that position and appreciate Donald, appreciate your service.
I appreciate your perspective and look forward to having you
on in the future.
Speaker 4: Okay, thanks very much, Jed, all the best.
Speaker 1: All right, if you're listening to this show, you know
I try to keep up with all sorts of current events,
and I know you do too. And you've probably heard
me say get your news from multiple sources. Why well,
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Speaker 2: There's many great things about talk radio and sitting behind
a microphone.
Speaker 3: If you if that's something you love to do. I do.
Speaker 2: I love it because I have multiple attention span challenges
that I love because I'm going from one subject to another.
But the other is, you know, Rich Jenny used to say,
what was great about being a stand up comic is
that you walk out on stage and people just start
clapping even though you've done nothing.
Speaker 3: They're just you're there. They appreciate you being there.
Speaker 2: This isn't a side This is inside stuff. When you're
in talk radio and the microphones you know, in the
break are dead, and then you know they'll.
Speaker 3: Come back and they'll say you're hot.
Speaker 2: That's just like the ultimate compliment, right, I appreciate that
they're just the microphones are on. It's just funny. You
won't find a humor in that.
Speaker 3: I do.
Speaker 2: Now, a couple of things that have happened that I
that I haven't brought to your attention. The US inflation
index has reportedly dropped to one point sixty six percent,
far lower than the experts predicted yet again, and that.
Speaker 3: Is the is huge. That that is a massive drop.
Speaker 2: It's it's lower than percented, it's a it's actually dropped
over half a percentage point just in the last nine days.
This would be an unavoidable situation that the Fed, based
on their own numbers, would have to drop interest rates
all of their predictions in the spring about inflation and
the tariffs and it being detrimental to the economy. This
is just wrong, completely wrongheaded looking at things. They've missed
the boat a thousand ways, and they're gonna have no choice.
If they don't, then they will be seen as completely
an overtly political because this is great story for the US,
This is great story for the economy. This is just
a great story. It's a great positive story. It's a
notable decline. This, this will this will absolutely drive conversations
about the drop. I mean, I'm sure the experts who
this is this. The alarming thing to me about it
is that the that there are experts that are going
to be up said about this. Experts should be excited.
I don't care what your political if if if you're
in this country and things are going well. You should
be happy about that. But which kind of takes me
all the way back to the beginning of the show
is that we find ourselves in a world where good
news is seen as bad news, and it should be
good news, regardless of who's in office. It should be
if this is good, this is good for the American family.
It's led mainly because food prices have dropped so much.
This is this is going to So when you when
you look at this in the abstract, when you when
you look at and I can give you an example
of what I'm talking about in pretty clear terms, if
you were to go to real clear markets or real
clear politics, or heck, let me just pull a random
up real clear health. What what seems to drive print
media even online media is this this hyper partisan look
at my news is good or my news is bad
because your guy or your gal are wacka doo's and
especially here, so I'm looking at so the Epic Times,
which tends to right how Trump's megabill would change medicaid,
and then the New Republic is like their headline is.
Speaker 3: The undeserving poor deserve Medicaid.
Speaker 2: And then the next one is kind of a right lanning.
It says Medicaid work requirements. Democrats want to infantilize the poor,
and that's an allusion to the fact that many Democrats
almost see the government is a cradle to grave, not
a hand, a hand helping you up, but just a
hand out. The next word, Christopher Jacobs at the Federal
it's kind of right Lanning. Experts and advocates lied about Medicaid.
That's just on real clear health. If you were looking
at real clear markets, it's you know, the sheer human brutality.
The New York Times, Laurence Summers over the New York
Sizys the brutality of the big beautiful bill.
Speaker 3: Here's the reality.
Speaker 2: It's not brutal. It's not going to be brutal. And
the way it's implemented. If it were brutal, it would
be stopped, it would be changed, it would be altered.
Speaker 3: It's not brutal.
Speaker 2: The static way of looking if I lower taxes, oh,
we're not going to get any more money, and it's
gonna just kill the income revenue for the government. No,
because reducing people's taxes means that they will do other
things with their money. It's the general premise that people
know what to do best with their own money, and
in so doing create economic activity. It's a beautiful thing,
which leads to more economic activity, which leads to more revenues.
And almost every time in history where taxes have gone down,
revenues have surged. Is there still a tax on SoC security?
In Trump's bill? Where's the US economy heading? It's all
about earnings, Powell's odd case for abundant reserves. These are
all headlines. So the more we move down this track,
the more people want to make things complicated, and the
more you can make things complicated, the more confused things
can seem that are very complex. So the goal of
many and media on the right in left. Hey, look,
I'm a conservative. I challenge that belief every day. I've
been a conservative since I had to register for selective
service under Reagan. I absolutely, steadfastly believe in a limited
role of government. I'd like to see it contracted massively.
I believe the states can do better left to their
own devices, than the federal government ever can do. And
I can look at the Great Society and see it's
been an abject failure. It just has It's a b
a month it's over overstaffed, underperforming, full of waste, fraud, abuse,
and I absolutely want to see DOGE cuts. I want
to see cuts, not just cuts in the rate of growth,
but actual cuts.
Speaker 4: That's me.
Speaker 2: But these issues, the more complex they become, the more
there is an attempt to overly simplify them and get
you angry about them. They don't need to be overly complicated.
People make them that way, and then they use that
complexity to get you angry. The Inflation Reduction Act, it
didn't reduce it inflation, it just didn't. The Affordable Care Act,
it was a multi The bill was so large Pelosi
had to say you had to pass it and find
out what's in it. There was nothing about it that
made things more affordable. So the big beautiful bill, at
least it's got a name. That's not going to tell you.
But I think it's going to be a lot of it,
and there'll be a reconciliation bill in the fall. There'll
be one in the spring, modifying, making it better.
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Speaker 2: Appreciate you call it. I appreciate you waiting and appreciate
your calling.
Speaker 3: Brian, Welcome to the show. What's on your Brain Today? Uh?
Speaker 5: Yeah, I was asking the gentlemen, how are the like
common person? And I say, I make twenty thousan an hour,
work forty hours a week. How is the big beautiful,
beautiful bill say to me on taxes?
Speaker 3: So are you are you married? Are are you married
or are you single?
Speaker 2: Well?
Speaker 5: No, I'm married.
Speaker 2: Okay, So your deduction goes up fifteen hundred dollars right there.
So the amount of money you'd get.
Speaker 5: What what do you mean deduction?
Speaker 2: That means the standard deduction that's used by ninety percent
of taxpayers who file goes up fifteen hundred. That's that's
fifteen hundred dollars more that you don't have to pay
taxes on.
Speaker 3: That's that's okay.
Speaker 5: So the so okay, say I made forty thousand dollars
a year, so they take they reduced that fifteen hundred
dollars and I pay taxes on on that amount.
Speaker 2: So whatever the standard deduction I don't have it right
in front of me, but I know that yours, whatever
your standard deduction is now increases by another fifteen hundred dollars,
this shielded from taxes, and then coming on what rate,
depending on what rate you and your wife fall under,
probably in the twelve to fifteen I mean twelve percent,
so they were getting ready to expire, and your new
rates would have been fifteen percent in the lower brackets,
twenty five percent, twenty those all get to be made
permanent that at twelve percent instead of fifteen percent for
that level, twenty two percent instead of twenty five percent,
twenty four percent instead of twenty eight percent. So on
the money that you do have to pay taxes on,
the rates are going to be lower than they would
have been.
Speaker 5: Okay, So so get like, give, give, give us give
an example of a dollar amount. How much would I
be saving?
Speaker 2: So if you if you had taxable income of let's
just say thirty two thousand, and then you had a
standard deduction, I can't remember, it is twelve thousand, five hundred,
then you would subtract that off the thirty two thousand,
so you would be paying tax on twenty nine thousand
and five. Now that goes down to you'd only be
paying taxes on twenty five hundred or twenty eight hundred,
twenty eight thousand dollars sorry, and then depending on that,
I think the bracket would be around twelve percent instead
of it going to fifteen percent, you'd be paying twelve
so you make another three percent that you get to
keep in your pocket. Those are just two other things. Now,
if you're in if you're making tips, if you're doing
that kind of stuff, then twenty five thousand dollars of
that is shielded from any kind of taxation, so you
don't pay taxes on that. Also, if you have a
passenger vehicle loan, then you get a deduction of up
to ten thousand dollars on that, so you getta you
get to take that off as well. So there's just
even SUVs and minivans.
Speaker 3: So if you have a family and you're.
Speaker 5: Trying to get it's not really affecting my takeco pay though,
it's not. That's just something when I'm fouling. That's not
really no no no no no no.
Speaker 2: Well yeah, when you find but you get your deduction,
so you get to keep more of what you earn.
So yeah, you could if you depending on how you
how you what you have taken out of your paycheck, Yeah,
you could, you could have it. You could lower you
could keep more of your paycheck so that when you file,
you you pay less, I mean you pay less all off.
Speaker 5: Okay, all right, I appreciate that. Thank you so much.
Speaker 2: Oh well, I appreciate your calling. So, uh, there's addition,
so older citizens get something out. There's a six thousand
dollars bonus deduction, uh for so Security. That's kind of
that's gonna shield a lot of older folks that are
you know, you're you're getting to.
Speaker 3: Take that out.
Speaker 2: That's just taxes and social Security. Understood, you paid taxes
when you earn the money, and then when you're getting
the money that you put into that back and remember
your company has to match that.
Speaker 3: So when you get that money back, you're having.
Speaker 2: To pay taxes on it. And I've never understood that,
but hopefully, look, I'm not gonna this is a step
in the process.
Speaker 3: This is not the end all.
Speaker 2: But those what people forget is had this not passed,
all of the Trump tax deductions or tax cuts would
have been expired and we would have seen one of
the largest tax increases in history. There would have gone back.
It would have been a huge tax increase on where
we found ourselves. So I appreciate the call it's not magic,
but I completely get is this again what he called
in And what I appreciate is it's complicated sounds it
shouldn't be that complicated. And what I'm hoping as it
gets done and finalized and that they'll be kind of
a cheat sheet. For lack of a better word, here's
what it means to you, because because right now people
are screaming, the people that are propagandizing the bill are saying,
look it does all these great things. Look at the
greatest things in slice bread. Oh my gosh, I can't
believe we ever lived without it. And the people who
hate it like, oh my god, it's the end. It's dooming, gloom, armygeddness,
It's time for megido and everything that's going to happen.
The world is over, the Son's going to explode, and
title ways are gonna be everywhere. That's the kind of
rhetoric we see. And the truth of the matter is
it is good for you.
Speaker 3: I mean for almost everyone. It's not a it's not
a for the rich.
Speaker 2: It's for the common man and woman that's out there
making ends meet. You're making if you're relying on tips,
it's going to be better for you.
Speaker 3: But it's not the end all for everything. It's certainly not.
Speaker 2: By the way, calls always come first. I was going
to get to one, by the way, about this war
on motherhood. I've tried to get to it for two days.
I'm not going to get to it in this in
this last segment, but I do want to get to it.
I do hope that at some point, you know, we
already have, like I said, that gentleman to call before
he's married, so his standard.
Speaker 3: Deduction will go up more.
Speaker 2: I do hope that we reach a point in society
where the value of a of being a couple is
more roundly made heroic. I mean, the enterprise, just like
being an entrepreneur has a great.
Speaker 3: Deal of value to society.
Speaker 2: We are a society of innovators, we are society of entrepreneurs.
I do hope we will value relationships more because I
think that's that's one of the side effects of this
fully independent, self realized kind of it's kind of a
societal narcissism. That we just don't need people in our
lives as much anymore. I am eternally hopeful that we
reach a point where being with someone that the value
of that is more recognized, that having kids is valued
more than it is. We've seen a massive decline the
average American you know, woman is having fewer and fewer
and fewer kids. We're not even at replacement anymore. We're
like at one point six and people being told don't
have kids, it's bad for the environment, don't have kids,
they're expensive. Divorces are you know, now seen as kind
of a ride of passage from many.
Speaker 3: So we'll see if that changes.
Speaker 1: All right, that'll do it for this episode. Thank you
so much for listening. I could not do the show
without your support and the support of the businesses that
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them too and tell them you heard it here. You
can also become a patron at my Patreon page or
go to dpetecleanershow dot com. Again, thank you so much
for listening, and don't break anything while I'm gone.