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Speaker 2: Thank you.
Speaker 1: Want to welcome everyone back to the Peakingano Show. I
have two frequent beloved guests here today, So Thomas, how
are you doing?
Speaker 2: And well? Thanks for.
Speaker 1: D how are you doing.
Speaker 3: I'm fantastic, man. Thanks for having me back.
Speaker 1: All right, d this was your uh, this was your
idea for a conversation, So have at it.
Speaker 3: Man, Thank you so much. So everyone should totally check out.
I mean everything that Beat and Thomas have done together,
but the Moseley series in particular I found really fascinating,
just because you know, Moseley, there's a culture familiar with
us and and I think episode four or five, you
guys talked about the Fascist International Conference, the first one,
first and only one, and we mentioned all the different
nations that were that were there. And if you haven't
read Paul Gottfried's Fascist in the Career of a Concept,
I think it's a really good book. Despite you know,
doctor Godfried being of the tribe, I believe he's an
honest man. And it got me thinking that, you know,
in nineteen sixteen at the Psalm, if you'd gone back
a century to the Congress of Vienna where the pollion
was the you know, Hapa recently called it a gentleman's peace, right.
You have this where despite firearms, most of the people
in the world were still agricultural peasants, and despite advances
and things like the McCormick reaper binder in the eighteen fifties,
or improved yields and crops and other things. Right, like
an agricultural peasant from like a Roman Latafundia would fundamentally understand,
like a guy who was growing food in Mississippi in
like eighteen fifty five. But in the nineteenth century, between
the PSALM and Vienna, you had cars, trains, refrigeration, canning,
telecommunications and the telegraph and the telephone. I mean just
literally everything in normal life. Everyday life changed one hundred
percent and in a very rare al way, like World
War One represents like the death of the old world,
and fascism is this opportunity. There's like there's three kind
of semi coherent ways to deal with this new change
world that happens after the war, after the Great War
of capitalism, Bolshevism, and fascism, and really, to me, the
only one that actually kind of makes coherence ince with
like human beings as they are that have particular loves
and attachments and you know, it doesn't destroy your religion
and whatever. Fascism was the one coherent way to actually
address all these changes without like just air rejecting them entirely.
There are people who will, you know, larpest Catholic monarchists
or whatever, and like we just need to go back
to the way it was in the thirteenth Like that's
a nice thought, but that ain't happen. So I couldn't
think of anybody better than Thomas to like actually elucidate
how fascism was. This just very real attempt to grapple
with the world as it now found itself. And I
think that people need to understand that, like those are
your alternatives, right, you can have Bolshevism, you can.
Speaker 2: Have Judeo.
Speaker 3: Usuria's capitalism, or you can have some sort of state socialism,
and that's it.
Speaker 4: So well, it's also it's important to consider I think,
I mean, I invoke the term capitalism because just for intelligibility,
and people like Shutter they invoked it for the same reason,
even though he didn't think that it was particularly useful
as a descript or in absolute terms. But like, the
important thing to keep in mind is that the New
Deal reveelue it was with revolution areas what happened in
Germany in nineteen thirty three, or would it happen in
the Soviet Union. Okay, Like it wasn't Roosevelt wasn't just
this guy. He was like, well, you know, there's a
structural crisis underway, so we needed an executive to step
in and you know and kind of manage the crisis situation.
Like the New Deal was this top down ideology of
retooling the entire way of living of you know, millions
and millions of people. And I make the point again
and again that like what became the Civil Rights Revolution
ephimistically that started under Roosevelt, like forced racial integration, this
kind of trying to forcibly strip people of their identitarian characteristics.
Speaker 2: You know.
Speaker 4: That was one of the kind of secondary imperatives of
the military draft, was the kind of condition people towards
those towards those imperatives.
Speaker 2: You know.
Speaker 4: So it wasn't it wasn't as kind of like neutral
administrative apparatus that was implemented. But that also you know,
had sort of like a war profiteers sensibility, you know,
in terms of power political affairs, So that that's fundamentally important,
and uh, it's not in these people were very much
adjacent the communists. I mean that that's why they It
wasn't just that they hated the fascists and the national socialists.
And it's not just that they were sympathetic to Zionism.
Like first and foremost, I Roosevelt himself didn't particularly like Jews.
I mean, that's just a fact, like his uh, his
primary sympathy was for communism, you know, like the in
the view of people like him, you know, this is
an inevitability, this is the way the world is going,
you know. And for context too, because the people to
this day they still talk about guys like Burnham as
being neocons because you know, in the nineteen twenties they
would they would bandy socialist ideas. People don't understand that
ontologically every single person thought that way. Because there's been
a total collapse of the nascent world economy and in
the absence of information tech, that situation is unmanageable, Like
laissez fare is not possible in the true sense if
there's no such thing as situational awareness up to the moment.
You know, really the situation kind of endured until the
late nineteen eighties. Like the reason now, like there's not
true economic crises. I mean, part of that is structural,
and part of that has to do with the uh
the deep integration of capital, but the primarily it's the
elimination of uncertainty. Like I can tell you right this moment,
like what's happening in European markets. Okay, even like forty
years ago, thirty years ago, I wouldn't know for hours,
you know, in the nineteen twenties, I wouldn't know for days.
So this idea that people you know, who weren't inclined
towards some new dealrism or towards communism or towards utopian socialism, whatever,
they were just advocating status models of the planned economy
or whatever, or that they were like bandying Keysianism. They
weren't doing that because like they had some ethical disposition
in that way. It's because that's the way every single
person thought. You know, you've if you started telling about
laissez fair economics, people have looked at you like you
were an idiot or a crazy person, like how would
that even have worked? You know, So there's that I
tend to agree to change gears back to the main
subject matter because that was kind of a tangent. I
generally agree with Arne Noltzi. I think fascism like true
fascism as it emerged the you know, in Italy, it
was a radical tendency. It was as much a radical
tendency as communism was. It just didn't have the same
political orientation. Obviously had a lot of that was born
a future shock, you know, but also the international situation
had to do with it. You know, I make the
point again and again. One of the reasons there's the
alibi of conservatives in other Midwies that oh, you shouldn't
be too hard on Churchill because the U kid to
prevent the ascendency of a rival power in Germany that
was dead like cabinet warring, and you know, this kind
of sense of of oh, we've got to you know,
we've got to strangle geostrategic rivals in utero to like
preserve you know, our ability to manage these captive markets
and things like that died in nineteen fourteen. You know,
by the time of the Great Depression, this superpower era
was emerging, you know, so Japan and Europe and Germany specifically.
But I mean I say Europe because the axis wasn't
this Germany. That's a misconception that this was some German
nationalist enterprise but Japan through what they called the Greater
Asia Co Prosperity Sphere, and Germany slash Europe would become superpowers.
They would ferish you know, and you know, I put
it to people who invoked that sort of ethical alibi
that I just invoked. You know, the UK obviously lost
the war and it became like a third rate power.
You know, it's now like overrun with with with aliens
and is you know quite literally airstripped one. So like obviously,
like that victory was the most pureic victory that's ever
that's ever been had.
Speaker 3: Yeah, Mosley was completely correct, right, like we had to
secure the empire, We're going to lose it, you know,
just to briefly bring up like the Nunzia's cult of speed, right,
we didn't have paved roads until like eighteen twenty My
Adam didn't invent the process till eighteenth eighteen twenties. So
think about this, like Roman transportation in like the first
century was the best roads got until the mid eighteenth century,
and forty miles an hour was the fastest any human
being went more than like a second or two and
live to tell about it for centuries. And as you
pointed out right like there's was just no alternative.
Speaker 4: Well, the two key, the two key uh, the two
key aspects of future shock that translated that both informed
and were the catalyst for and and we're most significant
to the political situation. It was a it was the
crisis of labor, and it was the military and strategic
situation and the emergence of of of wartech, devastating wartech
at scale. And also what's significant is that massive warfare
at scale basically never ever happens to the twentieth century.
The fact that this became the reality constantly, that's completely abnormal.
Those conditions happened maybe once every thousand years. And obviously
that again, the wartech that emerged in scale toies I
was totally unprecedented.
Speaker 2: But also.
Speaker 4: I think the point to people a lot, you know,
the crisis of labor and the fortunes of millions of
people being bound up with labor imperatives. People can't conceptualize
that anymore. That's the reason why I'm always telling people
don't use the term working class. There is no working class.
There hasn't like the last of it in structural terms
went away in the early nineties. Like we say working class.
We don't mean people with jobs or like guys who
do work. We're talking about millions and millions of people
doing pretty much the exact same job in factory settings.
They're almost all young, they're almost all men. Their jobs
are dangerous, they're very very low wage, there's basically no
room for advancement. It's it's a totally urbanized setting for
this kind of labor. That is the working class. Okay,
it's conditions that don't exist anymore really anywhere on this planet,
like even in place like China where there's just like
mass like apple factories. I mean, don't get me wrong.
Those people have like a really brutal lot in life,
and they they don't have like the right to organize
or anything, and they're very much like exploited. But that's
that's different than what we're talking about in you know,
the early twentieth century. Like that's the that's the that's
the that's the ideological soil, if you will, from where
like communism emerges, that is the working class. If you
read up in Sinclair's The Jungle, which I think is
a great book. You know, I'm not, i know socialist
like Sinclair was, But what he describes in the Chicago stockyards.
That's the way that it was. You know, every day
people die on the job, Like going to your job
is like going to war. And there's always many want
to work. Like if you if you age out of
the ability to physically do your job, if you get
injured on the job, you'll be thrown away like garbage.
There's one hundred other men who want to do your
job or younger, stronger and will do it for half
a way you do, like why do I need you?
That's the working class, okay? And uh, there's a there's
an ontological aspect to it. Like people emphasize a lot
the fact that these people lived in poverty, often grinding poverty,
and in the cities that were dirty, dangerous. These people
have been ripped out of the out of their kind
of a natural patterns of living in rural and semi
rural environments, you know, to go work there because they
had to do to survive. But also, uh, there's you know,
there's an ontological aspect like in one of Younger's Uh,
I mean Younger dealt with this directly in their Arbitter,
but he a lot of his fiction it's like the
Protagus or some of the secondary characters. They're great war
veterans who find themselves in factory environments and those experiences
like bleed into one another, you know, like fighting with
these dangerous machines, you know, to like earn like a
paltry wage is like being in the trenches again. You know,
that's it's not it's not just an accident there. It's
not just a flex that these guys on the street
and Vaiemar, you know who fought under the communist banner
called themselves, you know, combat group of the working class,
because that wasn't like probally, you know, and those conditions
are psychologically devastating, you know, like basically you're forced into
conditions where it's like I I've got to I've got
to do this dangerous, dirty job otherwise I'll die, you know,
and I have no recourse.
Speaker 2: You know.
Speaker 4: That's that's a lot of what underlay I mean, that's
what underlay all revolutionary in Paris, you know, including fascism
and Mussolini's background in like the communist movement. Despite what
a lot of communists said and what a lot of
a lot of left revisionists say today, it wasn't just
like some cynical ploy like oh, I'll start donning the
this this this kind of guys of of of national
or racial pride or something like Musli. He believed everything
he said, you know, but he he wasn't putting on
airs with defining the fascist movement is like a movement
of like workers and soldiers and artist That's what it was.
Kind of the it was also responding to. It was
also responding to tendencies like the action of France, say,
who were very much reactionary like Morass himself was like
an atheist and very much kind of like the twentieth
century modernist. But he believed in like the He thought
that you know, the romansurch should have like retained like
a fundamental role in French political life. He believed in
like the monarchy. You thought these things were like essential
to the sovereign authority and and like symbolic psychological aspects
of culture.
Speaker 2: Uh.
Speaker 4: Mussolini was responding that large part He's like, no, that's
that's nonsense. We're done with that, you know, like Mussolini
kept I mean, Mussolini didn't oppose the monarchy part of it.
Speaker 2: In Italy. Part of that was tactical.
Speaker 4: A part of that was, you know, he thought those
kinds of things were important as a matter of you know,
like you know, like Latin heritage and stuff. But he uh,
the National Fajist Party, I agree with erson Nolty, it
was largely response to that. Like the National Social German
Workers Party was like very much like a synthesis of
those things, you know, not entirely consciously. It was like
a discursion process. But I think that's the way to
think about it. Frankly, let me jump in. Let me
jump in and ask a question here. When you look
at the nineteenth century, with the nineteenth century basically being.
Speaker 2: A I mean.
Speaker 1: You had seminaries who were seminaries who were formally reformed,
adopting Darwinian Darwinian models, so basically the metaphysical has gone away.
How much of an effect does that have just basically
I mean on the culture. We know what it does,
but how much of an effect does that have on
the political culture. I mean even outside of like Marxism.
Speaker 4: Yeah, it's tremendously impactful. And that's why that's one of
the those two things. It was that it was, you
know the death of metaphysics and things that were things
like they transcending aspects of culture.
Speaker 2: But also.
Speaker 4: You know, people people took for granted that you know,
religion is dead. You know, even if that thing, even
though that kind of thing is value, nobody believes in
that anymore. You know, human affairs are reducible to the
material and the biological, and that's what underlay like a
lot of racialism. Like I wrote a whole essay for
my dear friend uh Giles, who runs the asylum Meg wrote,
I wrote an essay for it that he asked me
to because people have this idea that, oh, you know,
this kind of racialism was some German obsession. That's the
way everybody thought. You know, America was probably the most
avidly like racial eugenicist country that existed then. I mean
people thought that way in England, in Japan and France,
like this idea that you know, well, the reason humans
behave the way they do culturally is because of your race.
Like like I'm not saying like race is a real thing.
I'm not saying that, but it's not you're like your
DNA or your blood as they thought in those days,
like doesn't make you like act Jewish or like act
German like that doesn't make any sense. But in those days,
everybody thought that way, Like honestly, that's why these like
internet guys like, I mean, yeah, there's like an ethnic
component to any sectarian belief structure. And obviously, like obviously
like Judaism is an ethnos as well as like a
a sectarian cultural structure. But these guys, these weirdos like
bandying like oh, Jews are a race like that, nobody
thinks that way anymore. That's the way people thought in
in the nineteen twenties, like on both sides of the divide,
like oh, like you're Jewish because you have this kind
of you have this kind of blood, you know, like that,
you know, and if if you're if you're a if
you're European or Iriyan like or Japanese, you know, your
blood makes you behave this way like that's that's not
the way things are like that. That's Darwinist nonsense, you know,
like Darwinism is nonsense.
Speaker 2: I don't know.
Speaker 4: People on the right can't like let that go, but
that's that's as much it's as much like an Enlightenment
you know, kind of secular humanist uh lie is is
the rest of it, you know, like you know, you're
not you're not something like you're not something like meat
robot like running up program Like that's not what a
race is, you know, like yeah, there's a biological aspect
to it, but that you know, but no, that that's why, uh,
that's why people the kind of cherry pick. They'll they'll
look at something like uh, some guy like uh, some
guy like surroundos scen there or somebody like Mussolini or
somebody like you know, Hiller like said or wrote about religion.
They're like, see, like these guys heted religion. It's like
everybody thought that way, you know. And honestly, like people
like Hitler or Mussolini, they have like a softer view.
I mean, first of all, commune it's going to literally like
merphor you know, still clinging to the old ways. But uh,
you know, the the the National Souls isn't the fascist.
I mean they says that their views of of a
religiosity seemed punitive, which in the kid's out later, I
don't think they did. They were like look at it,
look at like the conversation like him leering got loab Burger,
like Burger's talking about how like, yeah, you need to
like cultivate like among our Islamic allies, we need to
like cultivate their like belief and like in in Orthodox
and Roman Catholic territories, we got to like cultivate like
religious belief. They were doing the opposite, if anything, but
it like cynical. Is that way of better or not?
Like the point being, it wasn't even like for a
lot of people. It wasn't even like it was a
value neutral thing like this is the way it is.
People don't think that way anymore, you know, So why
why would we talk about that stuff? It's irrelevant.
Speaker 3: I well, I this is all gold that I do
think that it's important for listeners to remember that in
the span of like three generations, like Donna, it was
actually good at this. If you were like a poor
peasant and you needed a job, you could go to
the local burger, the local ritter, the local you know,
gentlemen in pretty much any country in Europe right before
nineteen fourteen, it'd be like, hey, I need a job,
and he'd like, oh, well, I guess I could use
another gardener, another this and the the vat and of
you know, between the revolution in industry and the revolution
in the war right that killed that for a lot
of reasons, Like the entire upper crust of Britain, of France,
of Germany, like they all died in the trenches. Russian,
the entire the aristocracy but itself white all across Europe,
and you know, the natural leader class just basically got
slaughtered in nineteen fourteen to nineteen eighteen. So the and
I was I was in correct earlier it was Ah,
it wasn't an NZI when the come to speed as Marinetti.
I'm sorry, but that brutal work environment that you talked about,
and you know, the effectively the factory be no different
than the trenches. Was there any like precedent for this
in history that we know of? I mean, like I'm
I'm struggling might find with some kind of parallel here
where like the entire economic, social, religious, you know, sociological,
familial paradigm just they all just shattered.
Speaker 2: There is no parallel.
Speaker 4: And like despite this one's being the point that I
only moron say history repeats itself, but absolutely does not,
you know, like only idiots think that kind of consider
this man the Ford motor plan. I mean Henry Ford
was a great man and in part because he humanized
labor and he and he did he did, he took
heroic measures to elevate the cody a life of his workforce.
So that's that's relevant, but just in overall terms. But
my point is, uh, the Ford Motor plant employed one
hundred thousand people. That that's utterly insane, like literally tens
of thousands of people working on one site and uh
thousands and thousands of men literally doing the same job.
But that's also like general strike could bring the economy
to its knees, you know, because these valuated manufacturers, you know,
there they if you could if you get a halt
production on them, you know, uh, they you nothing, there
was no business was being done. You know, it wasn't
at all like today. And when you're talking about when
you're talking about a true working class where you have
you know, people integrated with productive machines, like literally you know,
all doing the same job. They become part of that
machine and they can they can stop that machine. And
like that's why that's also why scab labor became a thing,
because you can if you've got like a if you
got like a young man literally with a strong back.
If you can physically handle it and endure it psychologically
and physically, you can teach any strong young guy to
do this job. Like that's part of that's part of
what was critical to this paradigm is that we're talking
about physically very difficult but unskilled labor. You know, it's basically,
you know, it's like a labor army. That's why Spengler
talked about how the city is a barracks because urbanization
at scale that's why it doesn't make any sense anymore.
And like since the seventies when the federal government stopped
bailing out cities, which was a huge deal under the
Ford administration, Gerald Ford, like the whole that demand scramble
has been to like find a way to like make
cities profitable because they don't make sociological sense, you know,
I mean, I think cities are important for sociological and
historical reasons, but they exist. The reason why cities exist
as we know of them is as worker barracks, you know,
and finding a way to make them profitable. When that
paradigm went away, it has been a very difficult thing
and it's still it's ongoing.
Speaker 1: Something you said there that uh just triggered something right
in my brain. Was about general strikes. And you know
a lot of people will say, oh, the reason why
you ship your you ship your manufacturing over to China
is because you know it's cheaper to manufacture there and
ship back here than it is to manufacture here. Yeah,
you also don't have a chance, there's no chance of
having a strike and a shutdown because.
Speaker 4: It's yeah, because it's you ill legal and it's thrown
in jail, you'll be shot, yeah, exactly, exactly right, well.
Speaker 3: Or sabotage. Right, Like, think about the average forward plant today.
How many billions of dollars in human are in capital?
Is there at a Ford plant? You know, every robot's
probably twenty five thirty forty thousand dollars or more. I
have no idea, right.
Speaker 4: More like I've worked in a machine shop, is my
first job, and there was these machines that literally had
been made in World War Two that were valued at
like seventy seventy five or one hundred thousand dollars.
Speaker 2: It's insane.
Speaker 3: Yeah, go ahead, And that was a number of years ago,
so they're probably even more now. Right. So you talk
about an army of labor. Well, armies can go towards
the other guy, or they can mutiny, and so like
if your workforce mutinies and they destroy a bunch of
your stuff or sabotage any of yourself, and it doesn't
even need to be much, right, like if if one
of your lathes is like a hint, the degree of
a degree out of spec like every single part it
puts out is going to be wrong. And when you
have to have tolerances of thousands of an inch in
order for something to work, Like, think about how crazy
it is it stuggling with my friend's sand batch. About this,
Like if anyone understood what a car is, it's a
it's a metal tube filled up with highly explosive, volatile
gasoline and you light it on fire and you go
down the road at ninety miles an hour, like like
that's crazy. And in order for that not to like
just fall apart or break, you have to, you know,
you have to have very tight tolerances. And we're not
talking airplanes, which are even tighter or you know, anything
like that. This is just cars, and they have relatively
loose tolerances compared to something like a airplane or let
alone anything involving space. So you've got these where everything
has to be up to spec.
Speaker 2: And percent.
Speaker 4: I'll also add two talking about the labor situation and
the radicalization of the laboring classes as well as World
War One and managing conflict at scale. You know, this
kind of thing. Uh, it's like trying to ride some
out of control animal, like this idea that every step
of the way the stuff can be controlled, or that
there's like discrete kind of temporal snapshots whereby if you're
in an executive role, you can somehow put the brakes
on things like that's nonsense, Like these things get out
of control rapidly, and trying to trying to bring a
labor revolve under control or trying to end Uh, they're
trying to bring a conflict to you know, to to
cease fire, as was the case in like nineteen sixteen,
ninety seventeen. That's that's almost impossible. You know, like once
these things start, they can't really be stopped. They have
to run their course. And I I mean that was
the case. If you're talking about if you're talking about uh,
you know, some some some local lord in the fifteen hundreds,
if you're talking about a national state of eighty million people,
you know, involved in a war that's rapidly becoming mechanized,
you know, where where twenty million men are mobilized fighting it.
It's impossible to stop it, you know. And that's why
uh and there were there's in and and the leadership
development was uniquely ill suited to do that, you know.
I make the point again again, is the reason why
Hi Hitler actually personally hated very few people. I mean,
he wouldn't have gotten very far as and he certainly
wouldn't become the most single powerful man in the world
if he said around hating people. He hated the Kaiser
Billhelm and many many veterans did as they should have,
because he was a piece of shit. And Holveg was
was the real Holveg and Franz Joseph and the Hasbury
Empire were like the real heroes the central powers in
my opinion. But and both of them understood that if
this war begins, that we won't be able to stop it,
you know. I Meanwhile, the Kaiser was carrying on and
with he was like some kind of money python character
or something. It's like oblivious to these things. I mean,
as we're like a lot of his counterparts, to be fair,
across the continent. But you know, uh, the German Empire
was a mixed system. It was, you know, the Bismarckian system.
There was a genuine separation between state and government. But
at the end of the day, I mean, the Kaiser
an ultimate war authority, you know, I mean people the
general staff, the Reich's Kinsler, you know, these these guys
had a lot of power, and they had independent power
to negotiate within reason, but I mean it was in
the hands of the Kaiser, and like, if you got
some if you got guys, you know, guys who were
born in the mid nineteenth century who have been kind
of cloistered within palace walls, like both physically and conceptually,
and a modern mechanized war is in their hands like that,
that's that's a nightmare, you know, I mean, that's part
of it.
Speaker 3: Yeah, Well, I got were talking. Hitler was born in
eighteen and Mussolini was eighteen eighty three, I believe, right,
So they were young men when like the world had
changed in a crazy fashion. But all the guys you'd mentioned,
you know, the Kaiser was born in what eighteen fifty three,
I want to say, I can't remember, but you know,
like the eighteen fifty, like he was an old man
by nineteen fourteen, and he was literal prince, right, so
he's in this. He's never had to work in industrial
Even the Kings of France who quote him work for
they were taught a trade as part of their regnal duties,
right they were. They were never taught like, okay, be careful,
don't stick your finger in this or lose an arm.
Like that was never a thing that any of these
people ever had to deal with.
Speaker 4: I think Joseph was an exception, and he was. He
was possitively elderly by the honest of hostilities. But he
Fronz Joseph. He'd regularly fast, he slept on a military cot.
He like would fore go a luxury. He was a
career soldier, like even when he was out of active service,
like he'd still like were a uniform every day, Like
he didn't like like regal finery. But yeah, go ahead, generally, Yeah,
that's he was the exception that proves the rule.
Speaker 3: Yeah, well he's he's uh. There are people who want
to canonize him. No one of Catholics, particularly who want
to canonize him because he was just such a he
tried so hard to stop this, you know, as you mentioned,
like it had a momentum on its own where like
no one could stop it. You know, like perhaps in
nineteen thirteen, like if all the cousins had met and
been like this is insane, Like if they'd gotten together
and perhaps done a demonstration like this is what a
modern machine gun can do, and like had a bunch
of cows in the field or something.
Speaker 4: That's that's critical too. Like after after Waterloo, there wasn't
a real European war, like there was the there's the
Franco Prussian War, which was like ach which was like
an incredible victory and that's like I would put the
Prussians on the map. And there was there was a crimea,
but the Crimea was like very much restricted to localize theaters.
But there you know, there wasn't a real like modern war.
There was guys and the guys who'd served the in
as mercenaries in the War between the States and America,
Like some of them tried to send the alarm bells
like look like this is going to be a slaughter.
But yeah, they people atnoyed what modern WaRTeK was like,
because they'd have been a century since most people have
been exposed that kind of thing.
Speaker 3: And everything has changed so much too.
Speaker 1: I mean, yeah, well, that's one of the things I
wanted to bring up is you go from the Franco
Prussian War to World War One, which is less than
fifty years and World War One you have planes that
are flying around and they're dropping manually dropping bombs out
of them, and then just less than twenty years later,
the Condor Legion is friggin lighting cities on fire in Spain.
I mean, how do you not how does humanity and
people who are of a high culture thinking, people who
are looking towards the eternal and looking towards doing great things,
how are they not all over the place in trying
to figure out an ideology when you in twenty years
you go from oh, here, I'm dropping a bomb out
of a plane with my hand, I just let gornick
on fire.
Speaker 4: Yeah no, and things like and and things like things
like chemical warfare. I mean, it's not just like poison
gas is disgusting, and it's it's just like awful to contemplate.
That's that's a terrible way to die. But this idea
that you know, I can, I can, I can fire
poison at you, like well outside of visual range through
like indirect fire, you know, and uh, within seconds, you'll
be like your lungs will tread to pieces and you'll
die like choking on those pieces or h you know,
like you'll you'll scratch your you'll you'll you'll scratch some
sense of areas your body bloody because like a blistering
agent is is is like tearing your skin apart, you know,
like that kind of stuff. It's like something out of
like science fiction. That'd be like if guys went to
war tomorrow and like the Ivans or uh, like the Koothies,
I'd like found a way to like launch like a
xenomorse at you that like grab your face and then
like pop out of your chest. Like I mean that's
I'm being ubtoos, but that's like what it would be like.
But people just like what the fuck, you know, like
I that I mean not like people were, I mean
people are habituated to violence, unfortunately, very much in those
days of a non cool like noble sword. But stuff
like that is just like the horrors of technology kind
of shit, I guess is my point.
Speaker 3: Like the largest the Grand Army got was like six
hundred thousand people, and that was only very briefly, right,
and then like World War One, that's not even I mean,
that's like casualties for a couple of months.
Speaker 2: You know.
Speaker 4: Yeah, the burn rate is was unbelievable. And well it's
also too the some of the some of the exigencies
that emerge in game theory and like reach their zenith,
you know, by the final cycle of the Cold War,
where this condition of strategic parody and planning for nuclear
war fighting. You know, you're like you, as commander of
a or as part of the command element of strategic
nuclear forces, your charge of identifying potential war indicators, like
before the enemy has even started to act, arguably before
he even understands that conditions are moving towards war, you know,
and then you know, you've got to ably read those
indicators and decide whether to like preemptively assault or not.
Like stuff like that was though those kinds of variables
are already emergent in nineteen fourteen, and that's why I
believe I agree with the AJP.
Speaker 2: Taylor.
Speaker 4: When when the Russian Empire, when the Tzar gave the
order to mobilize. Russia had a two phase mobilization paradigm,
and once it was implemented, Uh, even if the even
even if the Zar or I don't know if the
Russian Imperial Army had a general staff or not, whatever
their command element was, even if hear them and put
the brakes on mobilization. You know, if if if the
German Empire and the Hats were an empire like hadn't assaulted,
they would have been dead because they would like roll
the dice and been like, okay, well we'll not mobilize,
and kind you know, taking like bizarre it like his word,
but it's like if this is a war, ruse like
we're dead, you know, because you don't have force. Even
if you have forces in being, and even if you
have like a properly trained and outfitted like reserve system
of like able bodied men, they're not like sitting around mobilized,
you know. So essentially it's the equivalent of like deloping.
What if metaphorically speaking like well you're doing like opponent
like has his weapon trained on you. You know, so
this head I'm sure people listening are gonna think, I'm
I'm I'm being punitive and mean to the Russians. I'm
not there's not like a moral component here. I'm saying,
like in causal terms, when when the Tsar gave the
order to mobilize forces, the die was cast. They couldn't
be stopped anymore. When a Howag approached the French at
the eleventh hour and begged them to stand down, if
they had done that, I think that that would have
that would have stayed the hand of the Russians because uh,
then they would have been fighting. Uh, they would have
been fighting both the German Empire and the Habsburgs on
like a single front, whereby like the bulk of both
forces could be thrown at the Tsar's army. But that's
that's a bit abstract. But yeah, that that's important to consider.
Speaker 2: Man and it play.
Speaker 4: It also relates to to like I said, like like
situational awareness, particularly as regards uh, the window decision temporally,
you know, as to responding to world market conditions. There's
a parallel, not just not just a similar not in
terms of similarity like structural similarity, but there's a parallel
and in terms of causality, you know, between military and
geopolitical crises and UH and and economic uh events at
scale you know, and this is uh. These are the
things that really created kind of like the the the
late modern state, you know, like the managerial state, if
you will, as ah as James Burnham called it. You know,
like in some ways we're very fortunate.
Speaker 2: Man, Like I'm not.
Speaker 4: I don't want to pontificate or derail the conversation, but
I especially if you're old enough to remember the Cold War.
I mean I was like a little kid and like
a very young team when the Cold War was going on,
but it was just something you lived with. Ire people
these days are like are compared to even forty years ago,
or like unbelievably safe. That's why it's bizarre in the act,
like a bunch of hysterical old women all the time
are scared of everything. It's like, what the fuck you
talking about? Like compared to somebody one hundred or fifty
or forty years ago, you're like unbelievably safe. Yeah, I
didn't mean, well, it's like but.
Speaker 1: It's also like you say, Thomas, the US military is
designed just to fight the Cold War. So is our
political So is our political thought. That's what we're taught.
We're just I mean that our philosophy now is we're
just continually fighting the Cold War. Everyone's an enemy, everyone's
out to get us. And then it's just come home
and now it's we're fighting the Cold War in our
home on her on the home front.
Speaker 4: Yeah, it doesn't make any sense, and you'd think that,
Like again, I you know, I'm the first to admit
or first to emphatically state that history doesn't repeat itself.
But when you're talking about but I mean, human activity
is basically like a closed uh loop. You know, like
there's like limited numbers of like outcomes, you know, and
there's like there's like there's not like infinite variables like
human behavior. Okay, so there's like parallels. So if you're
trying to you're trying to like identify, if you're trying
to like identify potential courses of action like in any
given like emergent scenario of a political nature, you know,
you you do go to the historical record like trying
to find parallels. I mean, like obviously, particularly on things
related to like military questions. The it's really unprecedented for
that that level like kind of structural sinility. The way
like America is it's like it's like total inability to
like adapt after November nineth, nineteen eighty nine, like Bush
and Baker were adapting, which is it's asking how like
the deep state totally and completely sabotaged like their vision
moving forward and globalism. Like I'm not saying you got
to think like Bush was like a like Bush forty
one was like a good guy or something. But what's it.
Speaker 3: His management at the end of the Cold War, how
no one got nuked? Is I mean like it's it's
really truly. Yeah, it's a remarkable diplomatic achievements.
Speaker 4: Yeah, the Gulf War Coalition that was the Prussians would
envy that, like in terms of like how the war
was executed, but the way he he corralled literally.
Speaker 2: Uh, you know, the.
Speaker 4: The Syrians, the Saudis, he had that he had he
had he had the Soviet Union which was its final
days then like sign off in the operation. You know,
like he had like he had a literal like army
of the nations like arrayed against Saddam. That's that's completely insane.
Like the guy was like a historical giant of a
US president in post war terms, Like even if you
don't like him, Like some guy the other day in
the Internet was like, you know Bush forty one was
he was what a gray man. Idiots, I'm like, what
the fuck are you talking about? Like that that's so
like delusional. But but no, but the the total inability
of the deep state to manage like the post Cold
War environment, and it shows you like how like the
rot was deep, like even people this idea that like
the Reagan era was like really based and the government
really had it shit together. And don't get me wrong,
that cadre that that filled out the Bush forty one administration,
like James Baker, Casser Weinberger, Laurence Elberger, like a bunch
of these guys, Like those guys were like very serious guys,
especially Baker. Baker's somebody I really admire, Okay, but uh,
the wider kind of uh national security apparatus, it was
a bunch of goofs and and idiots, you know, like
I'm people who just couldn't handle, you know, the the
changing of the guard figuratively and literally, and and and
they didn't want the Cold War to end because like
they they were it was it was it was like
basically like a con to them. It was just like
a way of like you know, being able to kind
of live off the public coffers and profit by the
ongoing threat of a.
Speaker 2: Done of war.
Speaker 3: Don Remsfeld and Dick Cheney just yeah, guys like that exactly.
They just treated the entire thing like this existential struggle.
And I'm I'm just old enough to remember like the
Cold War when it was serious, and I grew up
next to, you know, a military base on the West Coast,
and so there were times when I was a kid
where like you know, the f sixteens would come screaming,
you know, off their off their base, and like you know,
you knew some serious shi it was going down.
Speaker 4: Or like when I was in elementary school, we'd still
have they called them by then, emergency drills, like euphemistically,
you know, like we'd have to we'd have to go
to date's like the bell would ring like three times
over and over again, and we'd have to like go
single file to the lower level. And then you'd like,
we're like that was structure, the reasoning being like it
was structurally more robust, I guess, and like every classroom
had like a number that was posted where like you'd
have to and like that for you like a symbol,
and then like you'd get down on your hands and
knees and you'd duck and cover and like put your
head like against the wall and we have to hold
the position for thirty seconds. It was, oh, this is
the emergency drill. Yeah, well the only emergency you do
that in is nuclear war, okay. And so this, uh
I felt like slapping people. I mean even not just
not not just I mean I get kids a pass
like young people, I mean people fuckers like my age
and older. Like when the COVID thing was everything, We've
never faced a threat like that. I'm like, what the
fuck are you talking about? Are you insane? You know,
like I and every other kid in America grew up
with the reality you might become counter value attrician, you know.
I mean, like it was the seasonal flu is like
an existential menace, unlike anything really like it's but that's
that's a digression.
Speaker 3: Well it is I think a good illustration of just
how fundamentally unserious are our elite had become, right, Like
I've talked about this on Peacha before and everyone should
check out, like it's serious. Doctor Johnson on Twitter years together,
but like fundamentally, this whole Ukraine thing is just because
like a bunch of American neocons are still salty about
the Hammannitsky program program from sixteen forty eight. I mean,
that's that's why the war in Ukraine is a thing, right, And.
Speaker 4: I mean the tribe absolutely hates Russia. Like the degree
to which they hate Russia like can't be overstated, like
just anecdotally. I kind of like Ralph Bakshi, even though
he's like a huge fucking jew, like you know, the animator.
He made this really interesting movie called American Pop, and
I really like that movie, and it's basically about this family.
It follows like these four generations of these guys. Like
one of them is like this vaudeville performer, Like one
of them is just like piano prodigy gets killed in
World War Two. One of them's like this songwriter is
kind of like a cross between like Louied and de
d Ramone who becomes like this huge heroin addict and
his son then becomes this like uh, this like huge
rock star, you know, like in the nineteen eighties. It's
it's a cool movie, but it opens up where the
Cossacks to like programming like the Russian Jews, because like
even Bakshi used like this, like New York City guy,
He's like, oh, you know, the Russians are like you know,
they're doesn't have the Semitic bastards like that. That's literally
like their number one enemy. They fucking hate the Russians
to be the fare of the Russians, have no love
for them. But the Ukraine Wars comple it's it's in
large measure where it was returning the serve for the
Russians and Assad's forces, uh, levying a huge defeat against
id F and their and their tech fury proxies in Syria.
Yeah yeah, but I mean so yeah, like anybody, anybody
doesn't understand like the dynamic between the Russians and the
Jews as a people, Like it's not in the game, right, Yeah, absolutely.
Speaker 3: But but we're you know, we're dealing with right, both
both world wars start over like border disputes in Eastern
Europe that heavily involved Jews, right, and we're supposed to
just sit here and like be like this is fine
and and get more involved in like wait a minute,
didn't World War One start over a border dispute with
Slavs and.
Speaker 2: Well it's just this idea too.
Speaker 4: I mean that's just like the monumental ignorance, like it
made the point of people before, you know, like the
American Left, like guys like Peter are in Nets and
the like and in media especially. I mean I thought
those guys were terrible people, but there was like a
consistency to him, and you know, they they there there,
there wasn't internal logic to like their perspective like the
American Left now like they want to like they they're
basically a chew eading section for uh, for like the
warfare state. Like it's bizarre. These people are totally illerate,
you know, like uh like if the uh if you know,
it's like that scene in the movie Caligula, which is
probably apocryphal, where it's like Coligula he he orders uh
the Roman allegian and it's like assault the seed to
like conquer like Sidon's kingdom or like Neptune, I guess
his kingdom. Okay, Like if Joe Biden had like ordered,
like the US Marines wottack the Atlantic Ocean, like these
fagots would have been like, yeah, we hate the Atlantic Ocean.
They're like racist and stuff like like they're they're literally retarded,
you know, like they they couldn't find Ukraine on a map,
but they you know, it's like if you're gonna pretend
to like care about some other country, Ukraine is literally
it's it's a failed state in order of Somalia, like
run by a literal like homicidal criminal of mafia. It's
like sitting around saying you love like Edia means Uganda,
Like you know, it's like you really you love Ukraine
like you think like the Zelenski mafia is awesome, and
it's like your idea of like a good government that
then needs to be defended. Like it's you can't you
can't make this ship up. These people are they're literally
insane and they're literally retarded.
Speaker 3: Well, and I mean, of course you're right, but this
this notion that like individual rights or that a a
society where you were, like weird devotion to and sexualism
as religious value, absolute personal autonomy to the point of
of you know, like shedding male and female and you know,
total liberation from any kind of that that's possible in
any kind of society that actually functions, right, you know,
these people will talk about like, well, you're a gender fascist,
but because I think boys are boys and girls are girls.
Like if if egalitarian rousey and liberalism leads you to
the point where you think, like cross dressing is a
major political issue as opposed to like a very weird,
very niche fetish that should be you know.
Speaker 4: Yeah, that's why you're like people I make that point
of feel all the time. It's like, don't. It's like
what the fuck you're doing, Like arguing with like sexual paraphelias.
It's like there's always people are insane, and those times
that aren't insane, it's like they're they're basically like they're
a making fun of you, and they're be like running
up to sabotage. You don't like engage people who like
say crazy things. That's like arguing with some hobo on
the subway with like shit in his pants, you know,
Like you know, it's like I'm not gonna argue with
these fucking people. You know, like not just because I
don't argue with my people's enemies, but it's like, yeah,
it's like you just said, it's like if you're if
if if what you believe is politics is like talking
about like parrot sexual paraphilia's like uh like, I you know, traditionally,
like the remedy to that would would would be to
have you shot.
Speaker 3: Right and with good reason, right like and this is
this is why, this is why, like you've seen.
Speaker 4: Yeah, to be clear, I'm not going to advocate murdering people,
but I'm also not gonna argue with them and pretend
like they have some position that deserves being heard. Yeah,
I'm just enough younger than you.
Speaker 3: I think that like everyone, like, I'm in my mid forties,
so everyone younger than me, like has no coherent memory
of like a coherent society. And why they're constantly talking
about fascism and why the research engine interests today. And
I think one of the great services you provide, Thomas,
and I kudos and plaudits for this. You know, in
the dark years in the seventies, eighties and nineties, when
all the men who'd actually been there were dying of
old age, and there were a few people like yourself,
Mark Webber, a couple of others who kept the light alive.
Around twenty thirteen or so, it was the twenty twelve
election where you know, you had like literally movie star
a handsome like graying Temples, Mitt Romney, right, like you know,
because like the Central casting and Republican No.
Speaker 2: Yeah, he had great heir. Yeah you know, like you know,
just got a white dad.
Speaker 3: Well yeah right, but but you know, Conservatism like they
saw that like it had failed, like like we lost
to Obama again. You know, like this guy, obvious lightweight,
probably a homosexual.
Speaker 2: Like well he's just an empty suit.
Speaker 3: Yeah, just an empty suit. And you know the O
eight crisis he'd done nothing about, you know, done nothing
with that, and he just he was a tool of
the banks.
Speaker 4: And it was just also like this random guy, like
it didn't his candas, he didn't make any sense. It's
like if you're gonna like if you're gonna take I'm
dating myself with this reference. But people remember J C.
Speaker 2: Watts.
Speaker 4: He was this He was a Canadian Football League jock,
and he was kind of the Republican's token like black guy.
He was just kind of like slick black dude, always
like wore really nice suits and yeah, he came up
as kind of carny, you know, like, oh I'm j C. Watts.
I'm like I'm like I'm like hands on them in
like Hollywood terms like polite black man. It's like, okay,
if you're gonna draft a guy like that and like
make him and like install him as president, like okay,
get it. Or if you're gonna draft some like Spanish
guy is like you know, this is like mister immigrant,
like Spanish guy who like bootstrapped himself into success and
like basically make his candidacy like a reality TV show
how or fake that was, It's like, okay, get that.
It's like Obama. It's like, here's this random guy who's
like from Hawaii. You know, we're gonna pretend he's from
Chicago and then we're gonna pretend he's black.
Speaker 2: Like the whole thing was like.
Speaker 3: Very straight and pretend he's but it made.
Speaker 2: But it's like why.
Speaker 4: It's like why are you gonna pretend he's black? Like
why if you're gonna like push yeah, it's like either
draft an actual black guy or make the narrative he's
just like citizen of the world colored person. Like why
it made no fucking sense. And that's also why the
guy's like totally forgotten now because they had no context,
you know, Like it's yeah.
Speaker 3: He has he has he connection. That's why we ended up.
But anyway, now the thing that thing to think about,
right is and this is where I came in. I
came in and came into the movement about twenty years
ago and after the failure of the Ron Paul Revolution,
and you know, you really only are given these three alternatives, right,
how do you deal with this mass society where millions
of people are you know, turning wrenches in a car factory,
or millions of people are you know, driving to them
from work every day. Millions of people are you know,
logging into computers. Millions of people are doing all these things.
And you know, the coherent alternatives are like capitalism as
we know it, which is which has failed people my
age and younger, like spectacularly. They can't afford houses, they
can't get married, they can't save, they can't they can't
afford to living anywhere safe. They have to live in vans,
like you know, that was a joke when we were
a kid, you know, Chris Frowley And then yeah right, yeah,
well now that's like that's like aspirational, like oh, you
live in a really nice band down by the river.
You know, Like wait a second, Like when I was
a kid, this was like not a good thing, and
now like it's all that you know, younger like older
you can't afford.
Speaker 4: And so it's going on for a minute. I mean
absolutely right when I was when I was homeless, I
mean like much of that was like my own fault.
I'm not not saying that like conditions like mac or
economic conditions made me homeless. But I'd meet like other
homeless people, and a lot of them were, Yeah, they
were like young guys and girls where they couldn't they
literally couldn't afford rent or whatever, or like I'm serving
out a mortgage, and they had like fucked up parents
who basically threw them out. They were like or were
like shitheads who like wouldn't let them stay with them
while they got on their feet, And it was like
eye opening. I'm like, wow, that's terrible. But right, I'm
gonna I'm gonna raise up and I'm gonna I don't
want to be abrupt, but I figure I've been going
for an hour and I'm still kind of not feeling great.
We can take this up again sometime and in the
next few days or like in a week, if you
guys want to make this an ongoing thing I think.
Speaker 3: I think it's been really great, but I just and
I'm happy to hear to listen to you talk anytime,
but I think it's important for the listener to realize, like,
you know, there's a reason like hardcore Bolsheviks after the
two thousand and eight crisis, like did the occupied Wall
Street thing and then it failed because they were obsessioned
with like DEI stuff. And why the resurgence of influence,
our interest in in you know, fascist alternatives. Why why
there's a bunch of guys who are thirty years old
and who Stan Hitler is because you've seen the same
kind of conditions that you know created the revolution in
the first place in Wymar, Like you know, there's hyperinflation
and training and like Jews are in charge, and.
Speaker 4: No, I think young people are awesome, like not just
because I mean young people are the future. I mean
that's who we should be focused on anyway. But young
guys and girls generally their ship together. That's why I like,
I don't like when people trash zoomers because I mean,
that's that's stupid anyway and like a shitty way to be.
But zoomers have a lot of they got a lot
of uh dynamic energy and and even like a lot
of the zoomers on the left, Like I was talking
to some of these kids that I ran across at
the at the DNC protests and like other places, and
like a lot of them, uh, they're kind of naive
and in terms of their uh utopian concepts, but a
lot of them are are kind of they read you
guys like a manual Vollerstein, and they read uh like
they read serious left wing stuff and they realize that
they realize that uh, like pro regime like perverts like
our our pieces of ship and like they're their anime.
Speaker 2: Yeah, and to give them, Yeah, I'm.
Speaker 4: Not saying it's great if kids read Marks and Lenin
and but I they're at least that's serious stuff. It's
not it's not it's not like regime pornography and and
like bougie fucking garbage.
Speaker 3: That's true. And I was talking with a friend today,
like the most depressed people in the world right now
and for probably the last fifty years at least, have
been like indigenous Christians in Israel, in West Bank and Gaza, Palestine.
Speaker 2: Yeah, and.
Speaker 3: Like to give those guys on the left at least credit.
They're they're at least serious about like these people are
oppressed and they're being murdered by the thousands by this regime.
They might call a fascists. I might call it you.
And there's some truth that because Jabatanski was a fascist,
right Lil coup found of the Little Coop Party, Like
it's basically just stole, stole Mussolini's notes and so we know.
Speaker 4: Udism is like it's like a histiche of, of of
of all kinds of things that don't really make sense
and in the context is implemented. But yeah, it's no,
there's uh, these are these are amazing times and and
things are incredibly I'm incredibly optimistic. And anybody who's not
doesn't anybody's not say they're like, uh, addicted to their
own addicted to like the stink of their own failure
and misery, or they're just like not engaged with you know,
what's what's happening around them.
Speaker 1: But no, I think, yeah, I'll help us, I'll help
us close out here. I think I'll I think just
a lot of people too are their whole stick is
nothing's going to ever get better, and that's and they're
just selling it and the other monetizing that. So all right,
let me let you guys, Let me let you guys
get out of here. Uh Thomas two plugs and then
d you can uh promote whatever you want.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker 4: The best place to find me is on my substick.
That's where all kinds of good stuff happens. It's a
real Thomas seven seven seven dot substack dot com. That's
I mean, that's the place to go. You can find
everything I do there, just hyperlinks and stuff to what
else they do. My social media is alt is at
Capital R E A L underscore number seven h O
M A S seven seven seven And yeah, well we
well we convene whatever you guys want and just give
me a couple of weeks.
Speaker 3: Notice cool d yeah something, thank you for uh yeah,
thanks for having me. Pete. I just have you know
the fundamental principle on substack Fundamental Principles dot substack dot com.
And uh, you know dumb Road of FP podcast at
dun road dot com. So people are interested in my
religious project, that's what there you can find me. And
then of course you know, I'm privileged to be here
once a month with Pete with the thought crime syndicate.
So please give that a listen and I'll do my
standard design off of like you know, go to Freeman
them pulling on the wall slash support kick Pete a
few bucks. It's you know, he does so much work
behind the scenes, folks, like he helps so many people,
you know, not just me, not just Thomas, but but
dozens of people all the time. And so please support
the people. They don't lie to you. You know, all
of us work pretty hard at this. And you know
a couple of bucks if you can spare, it helps
a lot. So thank you. All right, thanks a lot, guys,
have a good night.