1
00:00:01,000 --> 00:00:03,799
Speaker 1: I want to welcome everyone back to the Pecana Show

2
00:00:04,480 --> 00:00:07,080
after a little bit of a break. Thomas is back.

3
00:00:07,400 --> 00:00:10,800
Are you doing, Thomas, I'm very well.

4
00:00:10,839 --> 00:00:14,839
Speaker 2: Thanks for giving me the opportunity to collaborate on some

5
00:00:14,880 --> 00:00:20,320
stuff before the big Portland basket weaving event. And this

6
00:00:20,399 --> 00:00:23,120
is an important subject area. I mean, for just on

7
00:00:23,160 --> 00:00:28,440
its own terms, but it dovetails rather splendidly and kind

8
00:00:28,440 --> 00:00:32,000
of like indexes with the long form stuff I'm working on,

9
00:00:32,079 --> 00:00:36,359
and it's especially timely with kind of the trajectory I've

10
00:00:36,359 --> 00:00:38,960
been trying to steer things, at least in our kind

11
00:00:38,960 --> 00:00:41,679
of intellectual circles, like not I don't like vanity or

12
00:00:42,320 --> 00:00:46,240
just because I've got a hobbyist interest in this stuff,

13
00:00:46,439 --> 00:00:50,399
but it's it's fundamentally important and I'll get into that

14
00:00:50,479 --> 00:00:51,960
as we roll out this subject.

15
00:00:53,600 --> 00:00:57,479
Speaker 1: Yeah, are our buddy, uh mister Rimbo, who was on

16
00:00:57,560 --> 00:01:00,520
the episode where you were you guys were talking about

17
00:01:00,520 --> 00:01:02,759
being on the ground of the d n C. He's

18
00:01:02,799 --> 00:01:05,760
the one who recommended this, so shout out to him

19
00:01:05,760 --> 00:01:06,439
and everything.

20
00:01:06,640 --> 00:01:11,920
Speaker 2: So he's an essential He's an essential part of homeland fiction,

21
00:01:12,079 --> 00:01:15,879
even though he's even though he's not truly local, and

22
00:01:15,920 --> 00:01:18,560
he's like an essential part of like my entourage. Like

23
00:01:18,640 --> 00:01:21,000
he's he's uh, he's going to be hitting Portland with me,

24
00:01:21,079 --> 00:01:21,799
which is awesome.

25
00:01:23,159 --> 00:01:25,680
Speaker 1: Yeah, what when you said how much you guys hung

26
00:01:25,719 --> 00:01:27,840
out and everything, I figured he was local to And

27
00:01:27,840 --> 00:01:29,480
then when he told me where he was from, I

28
00:01:29,519 --> 00:01:30,599
was like, holy shit.

29
00:01:31,799 --> 00:01:35,280
Speaker 2: No, he's a good dude, and he he's builting fairm

30
00:01:35,280 --> 00:01:38,079
in a vacation time, so he traveled a fair amount

31
00:01:38,200 --> 00:01:41,439
and I'm lucky he's he likes Chicago and like a

32
00:01:41,480 --> 00:01:45,040
lot of like Wallbanger and Hunger that Die Merchant. They

33
00:01:45,079 --> 00:01:47,319
were in town last week and we had a great time.

34
00:01:47,400 --> 00:01:50,000
But you know, they hadn't been to Shytown before. And

35
00:01:50,400 --> 00:01:52,599
I think people think it's either really grimy because of

36
00:01:52,640 --> 00:01:54,879
what they see on the news and all that kind

37
00:01:54,879 --> 00:01:57,359
of cap about how awful it is here, or they

38
00:01:57,359 --> 00:01:59,799
think it's just kind of like other things, just kind

39
00:01:59,799 --> 00:02:02,280
of like New York City was smaller, Like they they

40
00:02:02,319 --> 00:02:06,200
really impressed it how cool it is, and so Rimbau. I, Yeah,

41
00:02:06,239 --> 00:02:07,719
we we have a lot of fun here man, and

42
00:02:07,760 --> 00:02:10,919
he's he's a really good dude. I owe him a lot,

43
00:02:11,000 --> 00:02:13,479
and I mean I will have that fellas a lot.

44
00:02:13,560 --> 00:02:17,680
But he he especially he's he sends a huge amount.

45
00:02:17,960 --> 00:02:20,759
He's like a research machine. And I mean, i'd like

46
00:02:20,800 --> 00:02:23,639
to think guy him too, But I'm not as young

47
00:02:23,759 --> 00:02:25,840
as I once was, and I'm surely not as young

48
00:02:25,879 --> 00:02:29,199
as he is. And he he's always finding like really

49
00:02:29,240 --> 00:02:33,439
really great sources that I've never I've never come across.

50
00:02:34,120 --> 00:02:38,240
Speaker 1: Cool. Well, the wife and I talked about this this

51
00:02:38,360 --> 00:02:41,080
past year and it didn't happen. But we're gonna have

52
00:02:41,120 --> 00:02:42,719
to drive up and hang out with you like when

53
00:02:42,719 --> 00:02:45,319
the when the weather breaks, once winter breaks, come up

54
00:02:45,319 --> 00:02:46,759
for like the spring or something like that.

55
00:02:47,240 --> 00:02:49,280
Speaker 2: Yeah, that'd be great, man, You'll have a lot of fun.

56
00:02:49,319 --> 00:02:54,319
And so well, uh, missus Q. There's a there's a

57
00:02:54,360 --> 00:02:56,560
lot of there's a lot of stuff I can show you,

58
00:02:56,599 --> 00:02:58,879
guys that you'll really dig. Man. Everybody has fun when

59
00:02:58,879 --> 00:03:01,039
they come here, and i'd like to think I'd like

60
00:03:01,080 --> 00:03:03,240
to think I'm a pretty decent tour guide.

61
00:03:03,240 --> 00:03:09,360
Speaker 1: Mean, all right, let's get into it. Uh, mister Eric Hobsbaum,

62
00:03:09,400 --> 00:03:11,280
A lot of people probably have never heard of him,

63
00:03:11,479 --> 00:03:15,400
but you mentioned him all the time, usually in passing,

64
00:03:17,599 --> 00:03:21,719
usually just quoting him something like that. So let's do

65
00:03:21,800 --> 00:03:22,360
the deep dive.

66
00:03:26,240 --> 00:03:34,479
Speaker 2: Well, I'm he was a true left Heglien. People invoked

67
00:03:34,479 --> 00:03:39,199
that signifier or designation rather to talk about any any

68
00:03:39,240 --> 00:03:44,639
Marxist aconemic because in the public mind and kind of

69
00:03:44,639 --> 00:03:49,840
in academic culture, you know, any any Marxist historian or

70
00:03:49,879 --> 00:03:52,879
a historical writer is you know, exiomatically a left hag Alien.

71
00:03:52,960 --> 00:03:58,919
I I think exception to that descriptor for a few reasons.

72
00:03:59,080 --> 00:04:03,560
I mean, you can't, like, in its own terms, dialectical materialism,

73
00:04:03,639 --> 00:04:07,599
it can't be Hegelian because it removes you know, providential

74
00:04:09,560 --> 00:04:19,839
causation from it's h from from from its historicism, and

75
00:04:21,319 --> 00:04:26,920
you know, there's a arguably it abolishes metaphysics, you know

76
00:04:26,920 --> 00:04:29,399
what I mean obviously, So I mean that's it's it's

77
00:04:29,439 --> 00:04:32,480
something of as our Marxist friends themselves would say, a

78
00:04:32,519 --> 00:04:38,959
fatal contradiction. But HOBSBAUGHM. Hobsbam really was like a left

79
00:04:38,959 --> 00:04:41,800
he Gaelian in the purest sense. And I think his

80
00:04:42,000 --> 00:04:44,920
take on things, I mean, obviously we don't know, and

81
00:04:47,199 --> 00:04:51,879
I've read Imperialism by Lenin many times, but I mean

82
00:04:51,959 --> 00:04:56,600
Lenin wasn't Lenin was kind of the consummate political soldier.

83
00:04:57,000 --> 00:04:58,399
You know, It's not like he was something prolific. I

84
00:04:58,399 --> 00:05:00,160
mean it was. He was prolific for the roly and

85
00:05:00,199 --> 00:05:02,959
in terms of his academic output. But you know, it's

86
00:05:02,959 --> 00:05:05,360
not like he was. It's not like he was like

87
00:05:05,439 --> 00:05:11,639
Angles or something and putting out you know, endless, endless

88
00:05:11,680 --> 00:05:14,920
manuscripts or something. But I see hobbs one On probably

89
00:05:15,040 --> 00:05:18,079
was like the most like Lenin himself, you know, in

90
00:05:18,160 --> 00:05:22,879
terms of his kind of political ontology as well as

91
00:05:22,920 --> 00:05:29,480
in terms of how he characterize historical processes and you know,

92
00:05:29,560 --> 00:05:32,399
how outcomes they're in should be judged, you know, whether

93
00:05:32,439 --> 00:05:38,680
they are whether they advance the revolutionary imperative and in

94
00:05:38,720 --> 00:05:44,240
a progressive sense, or whether they are self defeating, you know.

95
00:05:44,279 --> 00:05:46,480
And so Hobsbam he was I think of him too,

96
00:05:46,600 --> 00:05:48,560
is he was really much kind of like a counterweight

97
00:05:48,639 --> 00:05:51,480
to arn SOINOLDI. They had a lot of similarities, Like

98
00:05:51,519 --> 00:05:55,879
their backgrounds very different. You know, Hobsbaum was a Polish

99
00:05:55,959 --> 00:06:02,680
Jew whose father was an English subject. But there's there's

100
00:06:02,720 --> 00:06:07,240
commonalities to their I mean, they're very they're very much

101
00:06:07,279 --> 00:06:12,759
opposites or were opposites, but there's seat of a common

102
00:06:13,120 --> 00:06:16,160
frame of reference in terms of what they would have

103
00:06:16,240 --> 00:06:20,560
viewed as authoritative and you know, what they considered to

104
00:06:20,560 --> 00:06:25,920
be sort of the essential canon of political philosophy and

105
00:06:26,040 --> 00:06:30,160
Hasbom Also, he got this reputation people haven't really read him,

106
00:06:30,519 --> 00:06:33,639
so they veeve him as like this unreconstructed quote unquote Stalinist.

107
00:06:33,800 --> 00:06:37,680
That's not really true. But he did refuse he had

108
00:06:37,720 --> 00:06:42,399
contempt for the New Left, and he refused to abandon

109
00:06:43,120 --> 00:06:46,240
allegiance to the Soviet Union in fifty six and in

110
00:06:46,319 --> 00:06:49,319
sixty eight. You know, he was he was an orthodox

111
00:06:51,240 --> 00:06:54,399
in Culdmart terms in orthodox Marxist Leninists, which meant he

112
00:06:54,439 --> 00:06:57,680
was in the Soviet camp and in the sun of

113
00:06:57,720 --> 00:07:02,399
Soviet split. He had great disdain for China for various reasons.

114
00:07:03,199 --> 00:07:06,120
So these like schismatic tendencies, the fact he opposed all

115
00:07:06,120 --> 00:07:10,600
these schismatic tendencies and the fact he was somewhat critical

116
00:07:10,600 --> 00:07:14,279
a cruse chief like that didn't make him some hardline Stalinists,

117
00:07:15,160 --> 00:07:16,759
you know, Like he wasn't the kind of guy who

118
00:07:16,759 --> 00:07:20,759
would say sit there and say like Eric Honnecker was

119
00:07:20,800 --> 00:07:24,240
like a great general secretary or that like the DDR

120
00:07:24,399 --> 00:07:26,600
had like a perfect system, and there were guys who

121
00:07:26,680 --> 00:07:32,199
thought that way, you know. But so the key to

122
00:07:33,519 --> 00:07:35,480
the key to this does kind of require like a

123
00:07:35,519 --> 00:07:41,759
deep dive and I find myself. You know what, so

124
00:07:41,839 --> 00:07:44,040
people might ask themselves, you know, what does this have

125
00:07:44,120 --> 00:07:46,120
to do with the present? I mean a couple of things.

126
00:07:46,839 --> 00:07:48,720
You know, if you want to understand the twentieth century,

127
00:07:48,920 --> 00:07:52,680
you've got to understand marcsist Leninism. You understand Marsus Leninism,

128
00:07:52,959 --> 00:07:55,759
that you got to understand the body of theory and

129
00:07:55,959 --> 00:08:00,360
his theory of history that you know, kind of frame

130
00:08:00,439 --> 00:08:05,759
the conceptual horizon that you know, nourish the it's it's

131
00:08:05,800 --> 00:08:09,279
revolutionary imperatives, you know. And if if you understand the

132
00:08:09,279 --> 00:08:11,680
twenty first century, you got to understand the twentieth century

133
00:08:11,879 --> 00:08:18,759
and that entire dialectical process bus today, this kind of thought,

134
00:08:18,959 --> 00:08:22,519
this kind of true left to Gaian thoughts made a comeback.

135
00:08:22,839 --> 00:08:24,759
Like guys think that guy Jackson Hinkel and a lot

136
00:08:24,759 --> 00:08:28,040
of people need he's a crank. He's really not, you know,

137
00:08:28,079 --> 00:08:31,040
and like he's I think he's partly funded by the

138
00:08:31,079 --> 00:08:36,799
same kinds of elements that fund like Zuganov's like reconstituted

139
00:08:36,840 --> 00:08:41,120
Communist Party. I'm not saying that, sinister, you know, I

140
00:08:41,360 --> 00:08:45,399
shouted out about this on social media, but you know,

141
00:08:45,440 --> 00:08:49,759
these guys aren't woke you know. That's why when Hank

142
00:08:49,759 --> 00:08:53,759
goldenfines himself as like a social conservative, that's not inconsistent,

143
00:08:54,960 --> 00:08:59,440
you know. And that's one of the reasons when people

144
00:08:59,559 --> 00:09:03,080
drop this bullshit calling everything they don't like Marxist. It's

145
00:09:03,080 --> 00:09:06,799
like that's it's not like Kamala Harris isn't a Marxist,

146
00:09:07,039 --> 00:09:09,840
you know, Obama is not a Marxist like American uh,

147
00:09:11,279 --> 00:09:16,039
American style social engineering and all the kind of bizarre

148
00:09:16,120 --> 00:09:19,720
stuff that goes into that isn't isn't Marxism, you know.

149
00:09:20,120 --> 00:09:23,639
So I think I think this stuff is more timely

150
00:09:25,080 --> 00:09:26,960
than a lot of people willing to acknowledge, you know,

151
00:09:27,039 --> 00:09:31,360
even if even if political theory is not really you know,

152
00:09:31,360 --> 00:09:37,120
in your proverbial wheelhouse or something. But I'm gonna jump

153
00:09:37,159 --> 00:09:41,879
around a bit if it's too scatter shot or if

154
00:09:42,080 --> 00:09:44,600
or or if something is not clear, like please stop

155
00:09:44,679 --> 00:09:45,279
me and I'll.

156
00:09:46,639 --> 00:09:52,440
Speaker 1: I'll kind of adjust. Uh, no problem, go ahead, no problem,

157
00:09:52,600 --> 00:09:54,879
I'll uh, I'll interrupt if I have something.

158
00:09:55,080 --> 00:10:02,360
Speaker 2: Oh yeah, yeah, no for sure. In nineteen ninety four, Hobsbam.

159
00:10:03,279 --> 00:10:06,080
Hobsbam had a certain degree of prominence, especially in the UK,

160
00:10:07,399 --> 00:10:10,159
you know, throughout his kind of academic career, even though

161
00:10:10,159 --> 00:10:13,080
he didn't really involve himself in public policy debates, with

162
00:10:14,240 --> 00:10:16,919
the exception of the Thatcher era, and we'll get into

163
00:10:16,960 --> 00:10:20,399
that in a minute. But in nineteen ninety four, when

164
00:10:20,440 --> 00:10:23,440
a lot of kind of retrospective stuff on the Cold

165
00:10:23,480 --> 00:10:26,799
War was popping up in media, you know, that's when

166
00:10:26,840 --> 00:10:29,480
like Nixon was I mean, Nixon died I think in

167
00:10:29,600 --> 00:10:33,000
ninety four, like ninety four, ninety five, but you know,

168
00:10:33,320 --> 00:10:35,720
Nixon have been making the rounds in nineteen ninety nineteen

169
00:10:35,799 --> 00:10:40,240
ninety two, there there was a lot of a lot

170
00:10:40,240 --> 00:10:43,919
of a lot of colder academics who were being asked,

171
00:10:44,080 --> 00:10:46,960
you know, for their to render kind of their their

172
00:10:47,000 --> 00:10:53,759
their diagnosis of the events the preceding half decade and stuff. Hosbam, Uh,

173
00:10:54,360 --> 00:11:02,720
he's being interviewed by Michael Ignattu, you know, an Ignocatave

174
00:11:03,200 --> 00:11:05,879
was very much try to put him in the hot

175
00:11:05,879 --> 00:11:15,759
seat and asking him loaded questions. And Hosmum famously said

176
00:11:15,799 --> 00:11:20,360
that had the Soviet Union succeeded in realizing a communist

177
00:11:20,399 --> 00:11:25,600
society and had it been able to fulfill its ambition

178
00:11:26,879 --> 00:11:35,360
of you know, facilitating a world historical revolutionary imperative, Hobsam

179
00:11:35,399 --> 00:11:39,320
said that the deaths of twenty million people or however

180
00:11:39,360 --> 00:11:43,159
many perished in Stalin's death camps, would have been worth it.

181
00:11:43,879 --> 00:11:46,559
So ignoctave, you know, famously like being clutching at his

182
00:11:46,639 --> 00:11:53,399
pearls verbially speaking. And Hobswom's rebuttal was, you know, Marx

183
00:11:53,440 --> 00:11:57,559
himself said that no rate movement has been born without,

184
00:11:57,799 --> 00:12:01,159
you know, the shedding of blood. And you know, Haze

185
00:12:01,279 --> 00:12:03,879
fought it up by saying, you know, self sacrifice isn't

186
00:12:04,000 --> 00:12:07,559
the only kind of sacrifice that was in the contemplation

187
00:12:07,600 --> 00:12:11,480
of Marx or Lenin or anybody else. You know, but

188
00:12:11,559 --> 00:12:16,159
this wasn't the standard maya culpa or whatever. Like a

189
00:12:16,159 --> 00:12:19,639
lot of like a lot of kind of like normany

190
00:12:19,679 --> 00:12:21,440
cohns think, as well as a lot of kind of

191
00:12:23,759 --> 00:12:27,799
new left types. This this wasn't just Hobbswaen being deliberately

192
00:12:27,840 --> 00:12:31,039
callous or something. But you got to understand the vantage

193
00:12:31,039 --> 00:12:36,159
point from where he's speaking, Like historical processes aren't. They're

194
00:12:36,200 --> 00:12:42,360
not the result of conspiratorial designs by like criminal actors.

195
00:12:43,039 --> 00:12:46,200
You know, they're not. Even even if you're a true vanguardist,

196
00:12:46,279 --> 00:12:49,519
even if you kind of accept Rousseau's if you with

197
00:12:49,600 --> 00:12:53,799
a general will and Hobswell very much. Did you know,

198
00:12:55,200 --> 00:12:58,799
of course the General Will doesn't speaks, he's not. Rousseau

199
00:12:58,879 --> 00:13:01,279
wasn't referring to like the body politic as a whole,

200
00:13:02,000 --> 00:13:05,679
like it could be just like narrow discrete elements within

201
00:13:05,679 --> 00:13:11,720
the political organism who's uh, whose commitments and whose conceptual

202
00:13:11,759 --> 00:13:15,759
horizon like indexes very strongly, you know, with a revolutionary

203
00:13:15,879 --> 00:13:21,559
leadership element, you know, But uh, that does. But these

204
00:13:21,600 --> 00:13:25,440
people are still what they're doing is they're they're engaging

205
00:13:25,799 --> 00:13:31,480
very intimately in psychological and political terms, with historical processes.

206
00:13:31,720 --> 00:13:35,840
They're not creating these conditions. So if you ask, you know,

207
00:13:35,919 --> 00:13:38,080
so so trying to trying to put Nolty on the

208
00:13:38,120 --> 00:13:40,440
hot seat like this, we're trying to put on the

209
00:13:40,440 --> 00:13:43,159
hot seat like this. It's similar to what haramaz and

210
00:13:43,440 --> 00:13:46,399
his his acolytes and allies we'll try to do to Nolty,

211
00:13:46,720 --> 00:13:49,799
you know, like, oh, you're you're justifying these monstrous crimes.

212
00:13:49,840 --> 00:13:53,840
You know, and always said, no, nobody's justifying anything. But

213
00:13:53,919 --> 00:13:56,600
if you're talking about the historical process, and you're talking

214
00:13:56,639 --> 00:14:02,080
about warfare at massive scale, at literally planetary scale, where

215
00:14:02,080 --> 00:14:05,480
we're not talking about decisions made by discrete individual actors.

216
00:14:05,480 --> 00:14:08,440
We're not talking about people committing crimes, you know, we're

217
00:14:08,519 --> 00:14:13,279
we're talking about events that are truly providential or you know,

218
00:14:13,320 --> 00:14:17,600
if you're an atheist like Cosbomb, truly providential, okay. And

219
00:14:17,639 --> 00:14:21,120
even if you assign a purely material the conslation of

220
00:14:21,200 --> 00:14:25,559
purely material causes, you know, to these things. It's a

221
00:14:25,559 --> 00:14:30,960
constellation of variables, so myriad, so complex at such scale,

222
00:14:33,080 --> 00:14:36,960
nobody can be said to be like responsible as a

223
00:14:36,960 --> 00:14:42,759
as a as a causative agent in approximate terms. So

224
00:14:42,840 --> 00:14:45,799
who was who was? Who was Eric Hosbom? I thought

225
00:14:45,799 --> 00:14:49,519
it was actually born in Egypt? You know, his father

226
00:14:49,639 --> 00:14:56,919
was Leopold Percy Hobsbamb. It's believed that the original surname

227
00:14:57,279 --> 00:15:02,720
was a ups Bomb, but uh, a combination of deliberate

228
00:15:02,879 --> 00:15:08,159
anglicization of the surname and clerical error led to it

229
00:15:08,200 --> 00:15:16,799
becoming Hobsbamb. His father had been some kind of merchant

230
00:15:17,000 --> 00:15:19,240
who was originally from the East End of London. But

231
00:15:19,320 --> 00:15:24,519
he but he was a Polish jew. His mother, uh

232
00:15:25,000 --> 00:15:31,120
was a Jewish woman named Nellie Gruen who had come

233
00:15:31,200 --> 00:15:34,799
from a middle class family. And then then you know,

234
00:15:34,799 --> 00:15:36,679
and then had what was then you know, the Hapster

235
00:15:36,840 --> 00:15:43,879
Empire in Austria. Howamerlaye that like he was self consciously

236
00:15:44,000 --> 00:15:46,639
Jewish because his parents conveyed to him, you know, the

237
00:15:46,840 --> 00:15:50,360
like like to take his though seriously. But he said

238
00:15:50,399 --> 00:15:52,919
he was raised in basically like an atheist household. He's like,

239
00:15:52,919 --> 00:15:55,600
it was a very Jewish household, but it wasn't religious,

240
00:15:56,080 --> 00:15:59,960
you know, And that that wasn't really strange for a

241
00:16:00,440 --> 00:16:02,399
hob Thom was born in nineteen seventeen. I mean, that

242
00:16:02,519 --> 00:16:04,919
was that's very much a twentieth century thing. You know.

243
00:16:04,960 --> 00:16:07,240
I everatize the people again and again, like nobody thinks

244
00:16:07,279 --> 00:16:11,919
this way anymore, Like the remaining the remaining self declared

245
00:16:12,000 --> 00:16:16,000
atheists who have any kind of public profile, like nobody

246
00:16:16,039 --> 00:16:19,320
nobody takes them seriously anymore, you know. And I mean

247
00:16:19,399 --> 00:16:22,960
really that kind of thing was dead by you know,

248
00:16:23,679 --> 00:16:26,879
by the end of the nineteen nineties, but there was

249
00:16:26,919 --> 00:16:31,399
some there's some peculiar holdouts, and it had something of

250
00:16:33,399 --> 00:16:37,600
it had something of a media profile, particularly in new

251
00:16:37,639 --> 00:16:41,080
media right before it's kind of final death as a

252
00:16:41,360 --> 00:16:47,720
culturally relevant quantity. But you know, so hot One had

253
00:16:47,720 --> 00:16:50,879
a fairly cause of pol and upbring. You know, he

254
00:16:51,039 --> 00:16:54,360
wasn't he wasn't some ghetto wise Jew who was sitting

255
00:16:54,360 --> 00:16:56,639
around reading Marx and Engels and kind of like nursing

256
00:16:56,679 --> 00:16:59,080
these grudges and stuff. I mean, like, don't get me wrong,

257
00:16:59,120 --> 00:17:03,559
I'm sure that his ethnos and the you know they

258
00:17:03,639 --> 00:17:09,319
kind of conceptual biases and intrinsic to that sort of

259
00:17:09,359 --> 00:17:14,400
household like absolutely informed his perspective. But you know, he wasn't.

260
00:17:14,799 --> 00:17:18,119
He wasn't some guy from you know, the Pale Settlement

261
00:17:18,200 --> 00:17:21,359
or something, or from or from some impoverished the you

262
00:17:21,400 --> 00:17:25,920
know tenement in Poland. And I've heard people speculate that

263
00:17:26,000 --> 00:17:27,599
the effect who want to throw shade out of him

264
00:17:27,599 --> 00:17:32,359
like that, that's just like not accurate. But he, uh,

265
00:17:32,920 --> 00:17:38,319
he was a teenage he ultimately his father died when

266
00:17:38,319 --> 00:17:40,240
he was when he was quite young. I think when

267
00:17:40,240 --> 00:17:46,279
he was twelve or thirteen years old, he was sent

268
00:17:46,359 --> 00:17:49,960
to Uh he was sent to live with his aunt.

269
00:17:50,400 --> 00:17:52,440
A couple of years later and his sister, and when

270
00:17:52,440 --> 00:17:58,119
his mother died as well, his maternal aunt and uh,

271
00:17:58,279 --> 00:18:01,680
they settled in Berlin. And then when ah, when the

272
00:18:01,799 --> 00:18:06,599
National Socialist revolution kicked off or whatever, remember when the

273
00:18:06,640 --> 00:18:12,119
National Socialists got their uh parliamentary plurality, which may you know,

274
00:18:12,160 --> 00:18:15,759
became a problematic majority after the KPD was was outlawed

275
00:18:15,759 --> 00:18:19,920
owing to the attack on the Reichs the Reichstag fire.

276
00:18:20,880 --> 00:18:24,680
You know, they they they had an absolute majority. But

277
00:18:25,680 --> 00:18:28,480
Hobswam returned to the United Kingdom. When I say returned,

278
00:18:28,599 --> 00:18:32,640
his father was an English subject, so young Hoswallm wasn't

279
00:18:33,119 --> 00:18:35,799
considered like he was considered. He was also considered to

280
00:18:35,839 --> 00:18:39,240
be a subject of the Empire, you know, and not

281
00:18:40,920 --> 00:18:46,799
subject to laws regarding alienage and things like that. He

282
00:18:46,839 --> 00:18:52,559
attended King's College at Cambridge. You know, he became UH.

283
00:18:52,640 --> 00:18:55,200
He joined the Communist Party of Great Britain basically as

284
00:18:55,279 --> 00:18:56,640
like as soon as he was of age. You know,

285
00:18:56,640 --> 00:18:58,559
I think when he was nineteen years old. I think

286
00:18:58,599 --> 00:19:02,920
you had to be eighteen to join in those days.

287
00:19:03,519 --> 00:19:07,720
But you know, he got He took his doctorate from

288
00:19:07,759 --> 00:19:13,160
a from Cambridge, and I believe his thesis, his PhD

289
00:19:13,279 --> 00:19:15,920
thesis is on the history of the Fabian society and

290
00:19:15,960 --> 00:19:22,960
Fabian socialism, you know, and Hobsbaum's commitments as well as

291
00:19:24,880 --> 00:19:33,480
his his particular kind of brand of UH of Marxist thoughts.

292
00:19:33,279 --> 00:19:37,279
It was very much it was ver much derivative of

293
00:19:37,319 --> 00:19:41,160
that of the of the English Communist Party, the Communist

294
00:19:41,160 --> 00:19:44,519
Party in Great Britain. Okay, Like when I say derivative,

295
00:19:44,559 --> 00:19:47,000
I don't mean that in punitive terms. But what I

296
00:19:47,039 --> 00:19:50,119
mean is hobs Bom quite literally identified himself as a

297
00:19:50,200 --> 00:19:54,200
quote Red Tory, you know. And we'll get into what

298
00:19:54,240 --> 00:19:58,720
they had means the implications that add. But guys like

299
00:19:58,839 --> 00:20:01,519
Kim Philby and the Cambridge they they were cut from

300
00:20:01,519 --> 00:20:06,200
the same kind of cloth, you know. The the commun

301
00:20:06,279 --> 00:20:10,279
is probably a Great Britain. They were very much a

302
00:20:10,279 --> 00:20:12,799
fifth column during the Cold War in a way that

303
00:20:12,920 --> 00:20:17,960
other similar elements weren't on the continent because they were

304
00:20:17,759 --> 00:20:20,279
they they they were Orthodox marcus a lot in this

305
00:20:20,799 --> 00:20:25,200
They unconditionally supported the Soviet Union, you know, they so

306
00:20:25,279 --> 00:20:27,519
they they were very much in the Cold War. You know,

307
00:20:27,519 --> 00:20:30,240
there's more of a bunch of Trotskyists, you know, trying

308
00:20:30,319 --> 00:20:36,920
to trying to cultivate electoral respectability. No were they uh

309
00:20:37,799 --> 00:20:40,200
you know, no were they were they like active as liberals,

310
00:20:40,839 --> 00:20:44,559
the kinds who find themselves in and n geosynecures who

311
00:20:44,839 --> 00:20:47,720
who were kind of Communists in name only, like they're

312
00:20:47,720 --> 00:20:53,039
they're the genuine article. They're pro Soviet. They were loyal

313
00:20:53,079 --> 00:20:55,640
to Stalin. Subsequently, they were loyal to his memory. But

314
00:20:55,680 --> 00:21:00,480
they were not uncritical, you know. They they they very

315
00:21:00,599 --> 00:21:04,400
much viewed the situation as you know, for all of

316
00:21:04,480 --> 00:21:11,359
its frailties and for all of it's less than ideal

317
00:21:11,920 --> 00:21:15,640
characteristics and situatedness. You know, the Soviet Union is what

318
00:21:15,799 --> 00:21:18,000
we have in this world, and this world is all

319
00:21:18,079 --> 00:21:26,799
there is, you know, So it's suicidally short sighted, you know,

320
00:21:26,960 --> 00:21:35,359
and and in political terms, to divorce oneself from the

321
00:21:35,480 --> 00:21:40,599
ambitions and the destinies of of the Soviet system. But

322
00:21:43,480 --> 00:21:53,519
and interestingly, Hobsbaum he served as a comet engineer during

323
00:21:53,559 --> 00:21:57,920
World War Two, and he caught some flak at the

324
00:21:58,039 --> 00:22:02,960
time and in decades subsequent because when the Molotov Ribbon

325
00:22:03,000 --> 00:22:11,119
Trot Pact was signed, Hobsbaum and and his ideological fellows

326
00:22:11,920 --> 00:22:16,119
and comrades, they they'd shout down people who are critical

327
00:22:16,160 --> 00:22:21,480
of the Third Reich because he said, you know, alliance

328
00:22:21,519 --> 00:22:26,359
of convenience this may be, or you know, whatever however

329
00:22:26,519 --> 00:22:30,680
contrived this non aggression pact may be. You know, this

330
00:22:30,920 --> 00:22:35,400
is uh, this is the way things must be, you know,

331
00:22:35,519 --> 00:22:38,880
in order for the revolution to be consolidated in situ.

332
00:22:40,079 --> 00:22:45,400
So anybody opposing the Reich or calling for its destruction

333
00:22:46,839 --> 00:22:50,920
or calling for Moscow to preemptively assault it, which Moscow

334
00:22:51,000 --> 00:22:53,400
is absolutely planning on doing. But people didn't know this

335
00:22:53,559 --> 00:23:00,640
outside of you know, Cadres approximate to the reds are Stalin,

336
00:23:03,079 --> 00:23:04,839
you know. But he considered this to be like a

337
00:23:04,960 --> 00:23:10,599
kind of revolutionary tendency, which was the orthodox perspective, the

338
00:23:10,720 --> 00:23:19,559
orthodox Merci's perspective. But other than that, Hosbaum was very

339
00:23:19,680 --> 00:23:23,000
much like a doctrinal anti fascist, like not not in

340
00:23:23,119 --> 00:23:28,839
Nuremberg terms. But and we'll get into this probably in

341
00:23:28,839 --> 00:23:32,359
the second episode. Hobsmam's take on fascism and national socialism

342
00:23:32,480 --> 00:23:38,160
is interesting. It's not it's by no means, you know, dismissed,

343
00:23:38,200 --> 00:23:44,279
totally dismissive and some punitive capacity. He says that the

344
00:23:44,319 --> 00:23:47,720
strength of fascism was that it mastered technics and technology.

345
00:23:50,000 --> 00:23:53,559
It uh, it was able to imbue people with like

346
00:23:53,680 --> 00:23:58,000
a fervent kind of energy to realize its objectives. But

347
00:23:58,559 --> 00:24:03,759
he considered it to be quote phyllis impoverished. And he

348
00:24:03,839 --> 00:24:08,400
didn't really seem to understand, uh, he didn't really understand

349
00:24:08,440 --> 00:24:17,119
the kind of trajectory of uh, Schopenhauer, Nietzsche, Heidegger, you know,

350
00:24:17,240 --> 00:24:22,039
to national socialism. Now that some people who have like

351
00:24:22,119 --> 00:24:26,400
a punitive like thunderbag like take on Germany and the

352
00:24:26,519 --> 00:24:29,559
Germanis and people in the German state. That's not That's

353
00:24:29,599 --> 00:24:32,000
not what Osbon was. That's not what I'm saying, and

354
00:24:32,119 --> 00:24:37,880
that's not you know. And Hosbom wasn't prone to that

355
00:24:40,400 --> 00:24:44,640
kind of moultive thought either, But like a lot of

356
00:24:45,200 --> 00:24:47,400
doctair and Marxists, he couldn't really see the forest of

357
00:24:47,440 --> 00:24:52,200
the trees. I don't think he understood the enduring power

358
00:24:52,200 --> 00:24:56,920
of continental philosophy outside of Marxist a jacent thinkers, you know,

359
00:24:57,039 --> 00:25:02,759
and informing what what what? What was going on in Italy,

360
00:25:02,920 --> 00:25:05,079
what was going on in Germany, you know, in the

361
00:25:05,160 --> 00:25:07,839
inner Warriors. I don't think he understood this. I think

362
00:25:07,839 --> 00:25:10,599
it was one of his blind spots, owing to adherence

363
00:25:10,680 --> 00:25:18,279
to you know, uh An ideology and Marxism that that

364
00:25:18,480 --> 00:25:21,160
that that quite literally inundates people with like a missionary

365
00:25:21,319 --> 00:25:28,279
zeal that sometimes uh these were kind of tunnel vision.

366
00:25:29,119 --> 00:25:39,200
But you know at uh and again, like I said,

367
00:25:39,200 --> 00:25:44,839
I believe like the Red Tory uh Moniker, you know,

368
00:25:44,920 --> 00:25:48,400
they became kind of bandied about in the UK about

369
00:25:49,200 --> 00:25:51,559
even a lot of these like labor types. You know,

370
00:25:51,640 --> 00:25:54,440
back of the Labor Party was a real party. You know,

371
00:25:54,480 --> 00:25:57,200
there were there were these guys who were basically like

372
00:25:57,279 --> 00:25:59,559
we consider them in America to be like you know,

373
00:26:01,200 --> 00:26:03,279
we get sided to be like like like right wing

374
00:26:03,519 --> 00:26:11,880
type type of figures. But for the fact that you know,

375
00:26:12,000 --> 00:26:15,640
they uh, they were very much uh socialists in there

376
00:26:16,039 --> 00:26:19,359
in their orientation. You know, they believe in state socialism

377
00:26:20,039 --> 00:26:22,279
both as like an ethical postulate as well as a

378
00:26:23,119 --> 00:26:27,279
kind of inevitability if if if the modern state was

379
00:26:27,319 --> 00:26:31,240
to survive, you know, with any kind of with any

380
00:26:31,319 --> 00:26:36,680
kind of legitimacy. So yeah, how long you're going to

381
00:26:36,839 --> 00:26:41,200
like Tory communists? Uh, not a red Tory, but uh

382
00:26:43,039 --> 00:26:46,359
that uh And again that seems paradoxical to people, but

383
00:26:46,480 --> 00:26:52,160
again it's I I refer to you know, Zugonov's Communist Party,

384
00:26:52,559 --> 00:26:55,559
you know, to Jackson Hinkle. But even you know, in

385
00:26:55,920 --> 00:27:00,400
historical capacities, this this resonated with people who had a

386
00:27:00,480 --> 00:27:06,240
developed understanding of political theory, the Marxism of the Frankfurt School,

387
00:27:06,400 --> 00:27:09,440
people like oswohand contempt for that. You know, they were like,

388
00:27:09,519 --> 00:27:15,359
this is degenerate garbage, This is this is uh, this

389
00:27:15,559 --> 00:27:18,839
is therapy for people who uh want to strike some

390
00:27:18,960 --> 00:27:23,559
kind of protest pose, you know, but are basically imbibing uh,

391
00:27:25,039 --> 00:27:29,359
you know, the kind of alienation uh that's deliberately engineered

392
00:27:29,880 --> 00:27:33,559
by by capitalist societies and saying like, oh, but this

393
00:27:33,680 --> 00:27:37,079
can be mitigated if you know, we have unrestricted access

394
00:27:37,160 --> 00:27:40,759
to the sexual hedonism, or if we can you know,

395
00:27:41,519 --> 00:27:45,960
partake of these uh material rewards, or you know, if

396
00:27:46,000 --> 00:27:50,000
we can if the state becomes a kind of if

397
00:27:50,000 --> 00:27:52,960
the state becomes kind of kind of ersos like aristote

398
00:27:53,000 --> 00:27:57,359
like therapeutic mechanism or or or a kind of rabbinic

399
00:27:57,519 --> 00:28:01,920
panel or or or like a like a or like

400
00:28:02,000 --> 00:28:06,640
an Aristot's like church, whereby like the declaratory judgments, that's

401
00:28:06,680 --> 00:28:11,519
not how like validate these these like contrived like postmodern identities,

402
00:28:12,799 --> 00:28:17,359
you know. And I mean that's that that's anybody who's

403
00:28:17,400 --> 00:28:21,839
the true communist partisan. What you know is it was

404
00:28:21,920 --> 00:28:24,599
disgusted by this, you know. I mean, I'm not I'm

405
00:28:24,640 --> 00:28:28,079
not saying Marxism is good. I'm not saying it's like

406
00:28:28,160 --> 00:28:31,839
good qualities because it doesn't. But they were and they

407
00:28:31,880 --> 00:28:36,799
are serious guys. And if you understand, and we'll get

408
00:28:36,799 --> 00:28:40,039
into this in a minute, if you understand that kind

409
00:28:40,039 --> 00:28:42,839
of like marcist Lenin is like view of the historical process,

410
00:28:43,880 --> 00:28:49,400
you know, basically basically they view like a lot of

411
00:28:50,279 --> 00:28:53,640
liberalizing tendencies to have resulted in a kind of reactionary

412
00:28:53,720 --> 00:28:56,640
ethos among people and to then their estimates that's where

413
00:28:56,759 --> 00:29:00,720
nationalism comes from. Like nationalism, isn't this really organic thing?

414
00:29:00,799 --> 00:29:03,799
And I'm not talking about nationalism meaning like caring about

415
00:29:03,799 --> 00:29:07,119
your race or your ethnos. I mean like nationalism in

416
00:29:07,200 --> 00:29:09,839
the form of, yeah, this is the country of Poland.

417
00:29:10,599 --> 00:29:13,559
So like you know, according to this raitrary criteria, like

418
00:29:13,599 --> 00:29:17,039
whoever speaks Polish is like part of the body politic

419
00:29:17,920 --> 00:29:22,920
and anybody outside of that, you know, is not. And uh,

420
00:29:24,039 --> 00:29:29,319
you know, despite the fact that you know the existence

421
00:29:29,400 --> 00:29:33,839
of this government is deleterious to you know, the kind

422
00:29:33,880 --> 00:29:38,920
of organic uh, the variables that constantly like an organic

423
00:29:38,960 --> 00:29:42,440
communitarian life. You know, if we like fly the flag

424
00:29:42,599 --> 00:29:45,480
and you know, make make this language the state language.

425
00:29:45,519 --> 00:29:49,279
You know, we're we're somehow you know, guarding tradition or

426
00:29:49,319 --> 00:29:52,839
something like. That's what they're talking about. And in their view,

427
00:29:54,240 --> 00:29:57,400
it's an effort by people whose lives are totally disrupted

428
00:29:58,640 --> 00:30:02,440
by future shock based we you know, and by the

429
00:30:03,039 --> 00:30:06,920
advanced and a productive processes such that you know, labor

430
00:30:07,039 --> 00:30:11,799
is no longer a complete process that people partake of

431
00:30:12,519 --> 00:30:16,160
in order to see through you know, the creative development

432
00:30:16,359 --> 00:30:19,200
of of a of an object or a thing, or

433
00:30:21,440 --> 00:30:25,319
a necessary activity from start to finish, you know, and

434
00:30:25,559 --> 00:30:32,160
it just becomes an artifact of a mechanization, you know,

435
00:30:32,319 --> 00:30:36,279
the discrete aspects of which you know, humans are still

436
00:30:36,359 --> 00:30:40,559
required or needed to perform. But I mean, you're performing

437
00:30:40,640 --> 00:30:47,200
these activities in endless repetition without any meaningful experience of

438
00:30:48,000 --> 00:30:52,839
the totality of its fruitfulness. You know, in the company

439
00:30:52,880 --> 00:30:59,200
of total strangers. You know, who's only who's only the

440
00:30:59,240 --> 00:31:01,839
only affinity between you and them is it's kind of

441
00:31:01,839 --> 00:31:06,279
accident of locale or whatever. You know, that that's what

442
00:31:06,319 --> 00:31:11,039
they're talking about. But you know, and so people like Cosbon,

443
00:31:12,119 --> 00:31:17,240
even if they didn't do things like religious observances as

444
00:31:17,279 --> 00:31:21,759
particularly positive or laudable, you know, they viewed it as

445
00:31:21,880 --> 00:31:26,039
a you know, an anthropological feature of the historical process,

446
00:31:26,400 --> 00:31:29,359
you know, whose time arrives and then passes. But they

447
00:31:29,559 --> 00:31:33,920
but they did view you know, communitarian bonds of whatever

448
00:31:33,960 --> 00:31:35,759
they may be. You know whether they're like you know,

449
00:31:36,200 --> 00:31:42,240
promised on culture or sectarian affinity or what have you.

450
00:31:42,960 --> 00:31:44,759
You know, like in the historical moment in which those

451
00:31:44,799 --> 00:31:48,519
things are relevant, they consider those things valuable, you know,

452
00:31:48,640 --> 00:31:50,799
because at the end of the day, to a Marcus

453
00:31:50,880 --> 00:31:53,440
Lenin and it's like the individual doesn't matter, you know,

454
00:31:53,640 --> 00:31:59,119
So whatever facilitates, like the dignity of you know, the

455
00:31:59,279 --> 00:32:03,559
laboring class or classes, you know, is basically like a

456
00:32:03,680 --> 00:32:09,079
social good. Okay, so somebody like Cosbomavi, you know, seeing

457
00:32:09,119 --> 00:32:12,720
a bunch of people saying like, uh, you know, marriage

458
00:32:12,839 --> 00:32:15,880
or like pair bonding isn't important. All that matters is

459
00:32:15,960 --> 00:32:19,359
like sterile sex and you know the catharsis you get

460
00:32:19,440 --> 00:32:22,519
from from engaging that kind of stuff, or you know,

461
00:32:23,119 --> 00:32:25,519
all that matters is you know, people being liberated from

462
00:32:25,599 --> 00:32:30,720
obligations to others or obligations to history. You know, you know,

463
00:32:30,839 --> 00:32:35,799
the highest good is being free, like you know, spill

464
00:32:35,839 --> 00:32:39,400
out wealth on yourself and and cultivate these these kinds

465
00:32:39,400 --> 00:32:45,039
of distractions that that that facilitate ledgend gratification like he

466
00:32:45,319 --> 00:32:49,680
had contempt for that. And basically any orthodox Marxist does,

467
00:32:50,200 --> 00:32:53,160
you know, they're like again, they're not woke at all

468
00:32:56,039 --> 00:32:58,079
if you want to race and if you want race too,

469
00:32:58,319 --> 00:33:03,079
like it's not I'm just pointing again again too like

470
00:33:03,200 --> 00:33:07,960
Marxists don't think race is important, but they're not anti racist,

471
00:33:08,079 --> 00:33:10,240
Like there's no reason they don't think there's anything wrong

472
00:33:10,599 --> 00:33:13,319
with a bunch of immigrants like swamped like a formerly

473
00:33:13,400 --> 00:33:15,359
Western country, but they don't think that should be a

474
00:33:15,440 --> 00:33:20,200
priority either, you know. And this idea that this idea

475
00:33:20,279 --> 00:33:25,839
that they're you know, this idea that racial identity needs

476
00:33:25,839 --> 00:33:28,440
to be like socially engineered out of existence, like they

477
00:33:28,720 --> 00:33:32,039
have no like truck with it, you know. Like Stalin

478
00:33:32,200 --> 00:33:36,000
did try to like, uh, what do you called the

479
00:33:36,119 --> 00:33:40,039
nationalities problem? That definitely tracks you know with like ethnic

480
00:33:40,119 --> 00:33:43,200
cleansing under us because the civil rights in America. But

481
00:33:43,519 --> 00:33:47,279
that's because the quote nationalities were causing problems for the

482
00:33:47,400 --> 00:33:50,880
party and for the Central Committee, you know, and if

483
00:33:50,920 --> 00:33:53,599
they weren't causing problems, like it wasn't so much a priority,

484
00:33:54,880 --> 00:33:55,200
wasn't it.

485
00:33:55,279 --> 00:33:58,319
Speaker 1: Because the like, the the nationalities that he had a

486
00:33:58,400 --> 00:34:02,279
problem with he considered to be the aspara person nationalities

487
00:34:02,359 --> 00:34:05,599
that could possibly collude with their home countries.

488
00:34:07,200 --> 00:34:10,280
Speaker 2: That was part of it. Yeah, definitely, that's part of it, definitely,

489
00:34:10,320 --> 00:34:13,320
and that's why that's one of the reasons why, uh,

490
00:34:14,639 --> 00:34:17,000
one of the reasons the Soviets assaulted Poland. I mean

491
00:34:17,039 --> 00:34:18,960
it was it was obviously because you know, there was

492
00:34:18,960 --> 00:34:22,079
a geostrategic imperative to be able to deploy in depth

493
00:34:22,159 --> 00:34:24,360
and things like that. But also there was like an

494
00:34:24,440 --> 00:34:29,800
active like Ruthenian minority there that Stalin was convinced we're

495
00:34:29,800 --> 00:34:32,440
gonna try and like reinforce the Ukrainians like an event

496
00:34:32,519 --> 00:34:34,800
of open war. Yeah, it was all that stuff. And

497
00:34:35,039 --> 00:34:36,800
don't get me wrong. Also, like I'm not I'm not

498
00:34:37,119 --> 00:34:40,079
I'm not sitting here defending the concept of like new

499
00:34:40,199 --> 00:34:47,920
Soviet man like eventually like identitarian characteristics relating to historical memory,

500
00:34:48,280 --> 00:34:51,960
like weren't we're slad for annihilation under like a communist system.

501
00:34:52,039 --> 00:34:54,639
And Hoswam would have absolutely agreed with that. But my

502
00:34:54,800 --> 00:34:58,079
point is guys like Hobbam weren't sitting around saying, like,

503
00:34:59,239 --> 00:35:02,719
you know, we need to settle like African people in

504
00:35:02,880 --> 00:35:06,679
Ireland because it's not right that it's one hundred percent Irish,

505
00:35:07,360 --> 00:35:10,920
Like they view that as like it's nonsensical, you know,

506
00:35:11,159 --> 00:35:15,760
just like people like Hobsbamb when Nuremberg kicked off the proceedings.

507
00:35:16,760 --> 00:35:19,679
You know, the view from Moscow wash, why are we

508
00:35:19,719 --> 00:35:21,639
gonna why are we gonna like declared Jews? Maybe this

509
00:35:21,719 --> 00:35:24,599
like murdered population. You know, we lost twenty five million

510
00:35:24,639 --> 00:35:27,199
people fighting the fascists. You know, like you're not there.

511
00:35:27,440 --> 00:35:29,639
And plus there are no Jews in the Soviet Union.

512
00:35:30,039 --> 00:35:32,920
You know, there's like Soviet citizens. You know, there's the

513
00:35:33,000 --> 00:35:35,880
body politic, and there's like our ops, and there's the

514
00:35:35,920 --> 00:35:38,199
most people outside of that, you know, and then there's

515
00:35:38,239 --> 00:35:42,239
and then there's like the Zionists and other like other

516
00:35:42,400 --> 00:35:47,519
vanguard tendencies trying to exploit you know, grieven since the

517
00:35:47,639 --> 00:35:50,599
nationality used to undermine socialism, like that was their view

518
00:35:50,639 --> 00:35:53,840
of it, you know, and even today, like that's why

519
00:35:54,079 --> 00:35:56,519
this carries over into today, like the way the Russian

520
00:35:56,599 --> 00:36:00,840
Federation views things, like the Russians are always he's always

521
00:36:01,519 --> 00:36:05,679
gonna view their enemies as Nazis and fascists. How would

522
00:36:05,679 --> 00:36:10,119
they not? Okay, But when they talk about that, they're not.

523
00:36:10,360 --> 00:36:12,360
They're not they're not saying it like the way like

524
00:36:13,199 --> 00:36:15,960
like like the way Chuck Schumer uses you're not or

525
00:36:15,960 --> 00:36:19,280
they're not saying that. You know, these people are like

526
00:36:19,519 --> 00:36:23,239
anti gay or they're or these people don't respect, you know,

527
00:36:24,000 --> 00:36:27,239
the heerent dignity of all people. And they're not into diversity.

528
00:36:27,239 --> 00:36:29,159
That's not what they're saying at all. Like they mean

529
00:36:29,239 --> 00:36:34,400
something very specific by it, and you know that's that.

530
00:36:34,920 --> 00:36:39,119
It's it's uh, it's both uh a uh it both

531
00:36:39,119 --> 00:36:42,159
alos you know, the Ancestral Memory and the Great Patriotic

532
00:36:42,239 --> 00:36:45,159
War as well as there's still like a lot of

533
00:36:46,199 --> 00:36:48,400
there's still a lot of like leftag alien thought like

534
00:36:48,519 --> 00:36:52,400
in Russia. You know, even somebody like Dugan, and I

535
00:36:52,559 --> 00:36:57,639
like Dugan, I I mean a lot of Russian academic

536
00:36:57,679 --> 00:37:00,639
culture I find kind of alien just because I'm like

537
00:37:00,719 --> 00:37:03,199
very much an Anglophone person. And that's not I'm not

538
00:37:03,320 --> 00:37:06,079
putting shade on like the Eastern Slavic people's or something.

539
00:37:07,039 --> 00:37:09,880
But uh, I don't find it. I mean they're very

540
00:37:09,960 --> 00:37:14,920
much like a different people. Okay, But even a guy

541
00:37:15,039 --> 00:37:19,960
like Dugan, there's very much like left to Gaelian strains

542
00:37:20,440 --> 00:37:23,400
of like letting his thought like and stuff that he postulates.

543
00:37:23,599 --> 00:37:27,239
And he's like very much like a I mean, he's

544
00:37:27,360 --> 00:37:31,119
he's very much a committed Christian, you know, like Eastern Christian,

545
00:37:32,239 --> 00:37:35,960
you know, that's a bit of a tangent. Forgive me

546
00:37:36,039 --> 00:37:39,360
if that was a kind of outside the scope. But

547
00:37:39,960 --> 00:37:42,360
but I mean this sust important, uh you know, not

548
00:37:42,519 --> 00:37:46,840
just to clarify what we're talking about and my my

549
00:37:47,000 --> 00:37:50,639
kind of primary wheel outs this political theory, but you know,

550
00:37:50,880 --> 00:37:54,440
just structuring the kind of conceptual landscape and which were

551
00:37:54,440 --> 00:37:58,599
remired just declaring anybody on the left be a Marxist

552
00:37:58,679 --> 00:38:02,159
like that, that doesn't make any sense. It's like that

553
00:38:02,320 --> 00:38:05,719
that says that's just that's just fucking retarded as saying

554
00:38:05,760 --> 00:38:08,559
that like Donald Trump is a fascist or like the

555
00:38:08,639 --> 00:38:11,440
p there were like people who avidly like follow his

556
00:38:12,559 --> 00:38:16,559
you know, media and political career and and and support him,

557
00:38:16,920 --> 00:38:20,239
you know, are like fascists. Like it's it's just as

558
00:38:21,519 --> 00:38:24,639
ridiculous and and at odds and the reality is is

559
00:38:24,719 --> 00:38:29,119
saying that. But yeah, I'll try to I'll try to

560
00:38:29,159 --> 00:38:33,679
pick it up a little bit worse the tangents, but uh,

561
00:38:35,239 --> 00:38:41,599
it's kind of magnum opus. There's a four volume uh

562
00:38:42,400 --> 00:38:48,840
study called the Age Revolution Age Revolution seventeen eighty nine

563
00:38:48,840 --> 00:38:51,960
to eighteen forty eight, and the first volume dropped in

564
00:38:52,039 --> 00:38:58,159
nineteen sixty two. This is a seminal work of historicism.

565
00:38:58,880 --> 00:39:05,519
In my opinion, you can find the abridged uh, this

566
00:39:05,719 --> 00:39:08,119
version of it in a series of PDF files if

567
00:39:08,159 --> 00:39:11,000
you dig around, if there, if people are really interested,

568
00:39:11,119 --> 00:39:14,559
I'll i'll, I'll throw it up on my on my

569
00:39:14,679 --> 00:39:25,280
sub stack. But you know, basically it uh the cosbomb,

570
00:39:26,679 --> 00:39:35,199
like modernity really arrived with the French Revolution, Okay, and

571
00:39:35,280 --> 00:39:37,199
what do he what I mean by that? And like

572
00:39:37,280 --> 00:39:41,719
what he conveys in the first volume of this Age

573
00:39:41,760 --> 00:39:46,199
of Age of Revolution is that you know, the overlong

574
00:39:46,320 --> 00:39:51,159
majority of people in Europe in seventeen eighty nine, they

575
00:39:51,239 --> 00:39:54,679
still they still lived like people did in the medieval period.

576
00:39:55,280 --> 00:39:58,719
You know, there was you had this kind of very

577
00:39:58,960 --> 00:40:04,000
very slim I already of dedicated urbanites, you know, and

578
00:40:04,119 --> 00:40:09,559
people who were close to technology and productive processes facilitated

579
00:40:09,599 --> 00:40:15,159
by technology. But almost everybody they were living, you know,

580
00:40:16,960 --> 00:40:23,360
basically as subsistence farmers or as people you know, laboring

581
00:40:23,480 --> 00:40:27,599
with the household as the local production, you know, and

582
00:40:27,760 --> 00:40:31,719
essentially bartering and trading on things they could make, you know,

583
00:40:32,360 --> 00:40:36,960
within the household. You know, this wasn't I think people

584
00:40:37,079 --> 00:40:42,679
this idea that you know, after like upon the ansen

585
00:40:42,760 --> 00:40:45,719
of the Age of Discovery or whatever, like suddenly things

586
00:40:45,800 --> 00:40:48,440
became moderate and everybody lived in a city or like

587
00:40:48,519 --> 00:40:53,239
a town, but just things were low tech compared to today,

588
00:40:53,760 --> 00:40:57,159
Like that wasn't Most people in seventeen eighty nine lived

589
00:40:57,239 --> 00:40:59,840
not much different than they did in thirteen eighty nine. Okay,

590
00:41:01,280 --> 00:41:07,400
And this is fundamentally important, And that's kind of where

591
00:41:08,039 --> 00:41:10,760
hobsbamb It's subtle, but it's very much there, and I

592
00:41:10,840 --> 00:41:13,920
consider it's a set. I consider it essential to understanding

593
00:41:15,639 --> 00:41:20,360
something of his political of something of his ontological claims

594
00:41:20,400 --> 00:41:26,599
about politics. As I said a minute ago in a

595
00:41:26,639 --> 00:41:30,159
slightly liment context, you know, when Rousseau talks about the

596
00:41:30,239 --> 00:41:33,639
General Will, and I highly recommend Rousseau to anybody on

597
00:41:33,760 --> 00:41:38,840
the right. He's very important. I first read him when

598
00:41:38,840 --> 00:41:47,039
I was about sixteen, and that completely changed my perspective

599
00:41:47,079 --> 00:41:50,599
on political theory. But you know, part of it's uh,

600
00:41:51,599 --> 00:41:55,559
part of it's because things are lost in translation, particularly

601
00:41:56,960 --> 00:42:00,199
French to English. There's a lot of cot there's a

602
00:42:00,199 --> 00:42:05,480
lot of subtle concepts intrinsic to the French language, particularly

603
00:42:05,519 --> 00:42:08,639
if you're talking about metaphysics or politics or anything conceptual

604
00:42:09,159 --> 00:42:14,320
that really that really doesn't translate. But the General Will,

605
00:42:14,800 --> 00:42:18,679
like Russell Again, Rousseau's not talking about some majoritarian consensus

606
00:42:18,840 --> 00:42:24,000
of like the whole body politic describing it as general.

607
00:42:25,480 --> 00:42:28,079
The way to understand that is to mean something bigger

608
00:42:28,199 --> 00:42:34,840
than like a discrete individual actor or actors. You've got

609
00:42:34,920 --> 00:42:37,920
to think about it as inextricably bound up to Zeitgeist,

610
00:42:38,320 --> 00:42:42,599
like as a concept. Okay, so the general will it

611
00:42:42,719 --> 00:42:45,159
might only be like one hundred guys out of a

612
00:42:45,239 --> 00:42:49,800
population of like five million people, but for whatever reason

613
00:42:50,280 --> 00:42:54,559
they astride to Zeitgeist. They've got like the gumption sort

614
00:42:54,599 --> 00:43:03,800
of the intelligence and politic mobile terms, and the motivation

615
00:43:04,599 --> 00:43:11,840
and the balls to see through purely historical and irrevolutionary imperatives,

616
00:43:14,079 --> 00:43:19,679
you know, in a way that has a formative effect,

617
00:43:20,920 --> 00:43:26,159
you know, either as like a reformist tendency or alternatively,

618
00:43:27,559 --> 00:43:31,039
it can be a tendency towards creative destruction and oblivion.

619
00:43:33,000 --> 00:43:40,920
But basically, the general will describes this like intangible tendency

620
00:43:41,079 --> 00:43:56,159
or sensibility that animates this this cadre at in deeply

621
00:43:56,199 --> 00:44:01,559
psychological terms and animates and motivates them to realize a

622
00:44:01,639 --> 00:44:08,760
revolutionary imperative. Okay, often too, this dovetails and peculiar ways

623
00:44:08,840 --> 00:44:11,960
with whoever the leadership element is of the state as

624
00:44:12,000 --> 00:44:22,039
it exists, you know, in situ okay. But that's so

625
00:44:22,280 --> 00:44:26,199
Habma makes a lot of that in Age of Revolution, okay,

626
00:44:26,800 --> 00:44:30,559
because a lot of court history that is now and

627
00:44:30,639 --> 00:44:34,280
for that's the jaguin revolution. It's a combination of like

628
00:44:34,360 --> 00:44:37,320
goofy stuff. I think people filled from stuff like like

629
00:44:37,480 --> 00:44:40,239
like late news or something where it's like, oh, everybody

630
00:44:40,239 --> 00:44:44,199
who was living in poverty and the crushing misery of

631
00:44:44,280 --> 00:44:48,039
these slums. So there was like this uprising, like that's

632
00:44:48,079 --> 00:44:54,079
not what happened. And again, you know, the material conditions

633
00:44:54,159 --> 00:44:59,719
of seventeen eighty nine, the purely material conditions weren't radically

634
00:45:00,199 --> 00:45:06,880
than centuries past. Okay, conceptually they were totally different. And

635
00:45:07,000 --> 00:45:12,239
that's that's what I mean when I point out that

636
00:45:13,920 --> 00:45:18,599
Hosbaum was a was a true left to Galien. Psychological

637
00:45:18,880 --> 00:45:25,440
variables stand in for providential ones. Okay. But people are

638
00:45:25,519 --> 00:45:29,840
familiar with the subject area in general terms understand exactly

639
00:45:29,880 --> 00:45:37,119
what I'm talking about and why that's important. The succeeding

640
00:45:37,239 --> 00:45:42,119
valume in this four volume study was was Age of Capital,

641
00:45:43,719 --> 00:45:49,840
you know, and Age of Capital I think it's kind

642
00:45:49,880 --> 00:45:55,239
of it's kind of a counterpart the Shupiter's business cycles. Okay,

643
00:45:55,840 --> 00:45:59,639
and it's interesting to me that this kind of Simpleton's

644
00:46:00,079 --> 00:46:06,039
off like Keenes, even people who are pretty outside the

645
00:46:06,119 --> 00:46:11,079
mainstream and pretty far left, they still cite that kind

646
00:46:11,119 --> 00:46:13,880
of stuff. You know, I would think that Age of

647
00:46:14,000 --> 00:46:18,320
Capital would be their kind of go to, you know.

648
00:46:19,440 --> 00:46:21,760
And it's highly it was. It was a highly respected,

649
00:46:21,960 --> 00:46:29,559
uh treatise because it it showcased a genuine understanding of economics,

650
00:46:30,880 --> 00:46:35,039
you know, and I I generally agree with Burnham. There's

651
00:46:35,119 --> 00:46:39,199
not a quote Marxist economics because Marxism isn't a science.

652
00:46:41,119 --> 00:46:46,039
It's not a theory of economics, you know. It's uh,

653
00:46:46,280 --> 00:46:51,519
it's a series of sociological postulates and claims about the

654
00:46:51,719 --> 00:46:55,559
historical process, you know. But there's not quote Marxist economics.

655
00:46:56,960 --> 00:47:01,719
You know, like like a Marxist economist, you know, he

656
00:47:02,000 --> 00:47:08,639
arbitrarily way inputs, you know, based on his own conceptual

657
00:47:08,760 --> 00:47:17,360
biases about what, in particular concrete terms, is like driving this,

658
00:47:17,519 --> 00:47:20,719
you know, the stage of the historical process you know

659
00:47:20,840 --> 00:47:27,199
that he finds himself in or that was the you

660
00:47:27,239 --> 00:47:30,360
know at Bock in which the the data being coded

661
00:47:30,440 --> 00:47:36,960
and interpreted occurred. You know, it's uh, it begins with

662
00:47:37,039 --> 00:47:44,880
the conclusion about the human condition as it relates to

663
00:47:46,280 --> 00:47:51,199
historical and political phenomena, and then and and then and

664
00:47:51,280 --> 00:47:58,840
then seeks out variables that that can substantiate it and uh,

665
00:47:59,679 --> 00:48:03,639
in part in terms you know, and there's some of

666
00:48:03,679 --> 00:48:06,880
that and a lot of Hosmon's writing, but he but again,

667
00:48:07,519 --> 00:48:10,039
he understands puer economics of such a thing that he

668
00:48:10,079 --> 00:48:15,599
said to exist better than most people, I mean, including uh.

669
00:48:15,639 --> 00:48:17,480
I don't think academics are any great shakes, but I

670
00:48:17,519 --> 00:48:23,840
mean including people who were you know, were in you know,

671
00:48:24,000 --> 00:48:30,159
his his peer group as a as a as a

672
00:48:30,199 --> 00:48:35,880
political uh partisan, and as a as a political theorist,

673
00:48:39,519 --> 00:48:43,239
and you know what can and this is also is

674
00:48:43,239 --> 00:48:48,719
what explains hosmons like lifelong dedication to communism, because it's

675
00:48:48,760 --> 00:48:52,400
a total theory of history. You know, it's not something

676
00:48:52,440 --> 00:48:57,400
you take on for because you're alienated and and like

677
00:48:57,519 --> 00:48:59,880
want some protest identity. I mean, yeah, I'm sure some

678
00:49:00,000 --> 00:49:02,159
people do that, but they they're not serious people and

679
00:49:02,199 --> 00:49:05,840
they're certainly not they're certainly not writing stuff, you know,

680
00:49:06,039 --> 00:49:08,079
like on a par with the Age Revolution of the

681
00:49:08,119 --> 00:49:14,280
age of capital. And Hosmon've never hid that, you know it.

682
00:49:14,719 --> 00:49:20,000
But he also one of one of Hobswe's collaborators on

683
00:49:20,159 --> 00:49:24,519
a on a lot of scholarship and a lot of

684
00:49:24,559 --> 00:49:31,360
his work product was this guy Eric Forearner Foreigner was

685
00:49:31,519 --> 00:49:33,920
was known. He became like firebrand who was like constantly

686
00:49:34,000 --> 00:49:38,039
bashing garbage off and you know, and and and issuing

687
00:49:38,079 --> 00:49:41,239
these these these punitive declarations about a garbage off is

688
00:49:42,079 --> 00:49:44,679
is forsaking the revolution. And he's a trader the the

689
00:49:44,760 --> 00:49:49,920
Sovietism and you know, into and of the socialist Communitian

690
00:49:50,000 --> 00:49:53,840
nations as well as the UH. It's most of the

691
00:49:53,880 --> 00:49:58,679
political parties that are you know, behind you know who

692
00:49:58,760 --> 00:50:01,880
exists in in in the capitalist world as well. Like

693
00:50:01,960 --> 00:50:04,880
Hoson ever did that. And it's not because he was

694
00:50:04,960 --> 00:50:07,559
worried about his public image. I mean he would defend

695
00:50:07,599 --> 00:50:11,320
Shnalin publicly. It's because if you are a true Mercus

696
00:50:11,400 --> 00:50:15,000
Leninist like he was, like the failure of the Soviet

697
00:50:15,119 --> 00:50:21,239
Union was ordained by that same process, you know, in

698
00:50:21,360 --> 00:50:26,239
Hosbom's his unconditional loyalty to the Soviet Union contrary its enemies,

699
00:50:27,280 --> 00:50:31,599
that didn't entail some like slavish like uncritical view of it.

700
00:50:32,800 --> 00:50:41,719
You know, when when Kruse Chef was assailing Stalin's memory

701
00:50:43,159 --> 00:50:49,480
and you know by name, attempting to impeach the personality cult.

702
00:50:51,119 --> 00:51:02,559
You know, obviously after a after nineteen sixty, after after

703
00:51:02,719 --> 00:51:05,880
nineteen fifty four, four fifty six there, and you know

704
00:51:06,000 --> 00:51:11,480
how Hosmom said to his comrades, you know, at cadre level,

705
00:51:12,559 --> 00:51:15,840
you know, we we we we need to we we

706
00:51:15,920 --> 00:51:19,440
need to take a hard look at at at Stalin's tenure.

707
00:51:20,519 --> 00:51:24,559
And you know what what what was laudable and what

708
00:51:24,800 --> 00:51:27,599
went wrong and what you know was in fact a

709
00:51:27,679 --> 00:51:33,440
kind of revolutionary tendency, because otherwise, you know, the the

710
00:51:33,480 --> 00:51:37,559
revolution won't survive. And and has I was honest too.

711
00:51:38,360 --> 00:51:40,480
Osmon obviously had a lot of respect for the Russians

712
00:51:40,599 --> 00:51:49,239
of people, but he you know, he was always he

713
00:51:49,400 --> 00:51:54,519
was a Soviet partisan, but with with with reservations, because

714
00:51:54,639 --> 00:51:58,760
he was the first to make the point, you know, uh,

715
00:52:00,599 --> 00:52:05,719
the revolutionary imperative didn't spark in the most hyper advanced

716
00:52:06,360 --> 00:52:09,760
capitalist country. It didn't happen in Germany, it didn't happen

717
00:52:09,800 --> 00:52:15,119
in the UK. It happened in Russia, where the capitalist

718
00:52:15,239 --> 00:52:19,840
class was on very tenuous ground, you know, And were

719
00:52:19,880 --> 00:52:26,119
they the opponent's revolution were really the Tsarist elements. So

720
00:52:26,119 --> 00:52:29,360
we're incredibly hard guys. They were god hearing people, they

721
00:52:29,400 --> 00:52:35,880
were patriots, but they were thrown in altered reactionaries. I

722
00:52:35,920 --> 00:52:38,719
don't mean that putatively at all, but that's what they were.

723
00:52:39,400 --> 00:52:43,639
You know, they weren't there weren't some capitalist element that

724
00:52:44,880 --> 00:52:48,840
you know, could draw upon this great power available to

725
00:52:48,920 --> 00:52:55,360
them by you know, the productive processes that can literally

726
00:52:55,480 --> 00:53:00,159
extract wealth out of the dirt. You know. That's not uh,

727
00:53:00,599 --> 00:53:03,159
that's none of the Bolsheviks were facing down and murdering,

728
00:53:04,119 --> 00:53:07,320
you know. So they they they kind of knocked down

729
00:53:07,360 --> 00:53:10,960
a house of cards in what became the Soviet Union,

730
00:53:12,079 --> 00:53:17,280
you know. And Hoswell never lost sight of that. So yeah,

731
00:53:17,280 --> 00:53:21,559
on the one hand, you know, you must stand with

732
00:53:21,880 --> 00:53:25,119
the Soviet Union. The Soviet Union is the it is

733
00:53:25,159 --> 00:53:30,000
the beating heart of the socialist community of nations and

734
00:53:30,119 --> 00:53:35,320
of the revolution, you know, but that doesn't mean that,

735
00:53:35,719 --> 00:53:42,840
you know, one must uncritically accept every feature of of

736
00:53:42,960 --> 00:53:48,039
the Soviet state. And uh, Hoswell was critical of state

737
00:53:48,159 --> 00:53:51,639
socialism from day one, like he considered it a necessary stage.

738
00:53:52,760 --> 00:53:54,960
But he wasn't. That's what the reasons I object to

739
00:53:55,000 --> 00:53:57,760
people saying, oh he was like the Stalinist, like a

740
00:53:57,840 --> 00:54:07,320
true Stalinist was uh was or is uh you know

741
00:54:07,400 --> 00:54:09,800
somebody who looks at the Soviet state as like the

742
00:54:10,000 --> 00:54:13,039
zenith of stay craft and then and and they view

743
00:54:13,079 --> 00:54:17,079
that as like a positive thing, you know, basically uh,

744
00:54:19,639 --> 00:54:25,320
you know, based basically uh basically this this this this

745
00:54:25,519 --> 00:54:31,880
mighty empire of uh you know that like leads the

746
00:54:31,960 --> 00:54:38,760
world in in in in terms of how like you know,

747
00:54:38,800 --> 00:54:42,840
the industrial proletariat is valued. You know, it's a superpower

748
00:54:42,960 --> 00:54:46,320
because of its military might and it's mastery of technics,

749
00:54:46,320 --> 00:54:49,880
including nuclear weapons and the ability to deploy into orbital

750
00:54:49,960 --> 00:54:53,480
space and things like that. You know, like these and

751
00:54:53,599 --> 00:54:56,400
these guys do exist, you know, I mean like that

752
00:54:56,639 --> 00:54:58,840
is now like Hosman was not at all one of

753
00:54:58,880 --> 00:55:08,320
those guys. Okay, to be clear, let me see, I'm

754
00:55:08,400 --> 00:55:12,360
in my outline, like I'm not uh, I'm not an

755
00:55:12,519 --> 00:55:14,320
F A G, G O T who like you know,

756
00:55:15,599 --> 00:55:18,599
I gotta stick to the outline. But I but it

757
00:55:18,719 --> 00:55:24,000
doesn't like a like a conceptual map so I know

758
00:55:24,039 --> 00:55:26,920
where we're at. They don't want to. Yeah, let's uh

759
00:55:29,039 --> 00:55:33,199
hoss problem. Well, I want to get this biographical sort

760
00:55:33,239 --> 00:55:35,320
of info out of the way to the lay foundation.

761
00:55:35,840 --> 00:55:42,320
We'll get into the substance of Hobsbaum's you know, intellectual

762
00:55:42,440 --> 00:55:45,920
canon in episode two. But I want to I want

763
00:55:45,920 --> 00:55:47,800
to get and we need to get into the dual Revolution,

764
00:55:50,559 --> 00:55:53,360
which is a it's it's a it's a political theoretical

765
00:55:53,400 --> 00:55:59,840
and a sociological postulated concept that was coined, uh that

766
00:56:00,159 --> 00:56:03,800
quite by Hosbam and now in scholarship on the French Revolution,

767
00:56:04,079 --> 00:56:07,039
it's it's just kind of taken, it's just kind of accepted.

768
00:56:07,320 --> 00:56:12,960
It's accepted as like an essential aspect of of that

769
00:56:13,840 --> 00:56:16,519
body of scholarship. But if I, but if I, that's

770
00:56:16,559 --> 00:56:19,000
going to take an hour to dive into. So let's

771
00:56:20,239 --> 00:56:22,760
let's hold off on that. And I think we're coming

772
00:56:22,800 --> 00:56:25,760
on about an hour anyway. So yeah, I think this

773
00:56:25,840 --> 00:56:31,320
would be a natural stopping point if that's acceptable, perfect.

774
00:56:31,239 --> 00:56:36,519
Speaker 1: All right, do plugs and we'll talk about the next episode.

775
00:56:37,719 --> 00:56:45,639
Speaker 2: Yeah. Man, I strongly advise, or I mean not advise,

776
00:56:45,880 --> 00:56:47,840
I suggest. It would make me happy if people would

777
00:56:47,920 --> 00:56:50,239
check out my substack. And it's in addition to there

778
00:56:50,320 --> 00:56:52,800
being like my podcast there and like some longer form

779
00:56:52,880 --> 00:57:00,559
stuff and a pretty active like chat platform that's where

780
00:57:00,639 --> 00:57:03,840
when I shout out stuff like you know events and

781
00:57:04,719 --> 00:57:08,360
inactivities were up on it. It shows up there. It's

782
00:57:08,440 --> 00:57:12,119
a real Thomas seven seven seven dot substack dot com.

783
00:57:13,400 --> 00:57:17,679
This Saturday, we're meeting at Rosewood Cemetery for our Halloween

784
00:57:17,800 --> 00:57:20,880
Cemetery Walk and we're gonna lay some flowers at Confederate

785
00:57:20,960 --> 00:57:26,000
Mound to like honor our forebears and their sacrifice and

786
00:57:26,199 --> 00:57:30,159
for the Orthodox guys and girls. Mercia Eliadi is buried

787
00:57:30,199 --> 00:57:33,800
at the same uh cemetery and we're gonna pay respects

788
00:57:33,840 --> 00:57:36,519
to him. And Eliatti has had a huge effect on

789
00:57:36,880 --> 00:57:44,039
impact on my intellectual development. So we're uh, it's it's

790
00:57:44,079 --> 00:57:47,559
it's gonna be a very positive day, you know, uh

791
00:57:47,679 --> 00:57:51,559
if somber. But last last year we went to Graceland

792
00:57:51,599 --> 00:57:54,000
Cemetery up on the North Side and it was it

793
00:57:54,119 --> 00:57:57,599
was fantastic and a lot of people showed up. But uh,

794
00:57:58,239 --> 00:58:02,599
you'll find me on social media. I meant capital r

795
00:58:02,599 --> 00:58:06,719
e A L underscore number seven hl mes seven seven

796
00:58:06,840 --> 00:58:09,840
seven and I'm there just like check the pinned uh

797
00:58:10,960 --> 00:58:14,800
like post I you can find like merge that like

798
00:58:14,920 --> 00:58:18,880
my dear friend here Kreig produces. You can find a

799
00:58:18,880 --> 00:58:23,360
links my instagram, my t gram, the my website, like

800
00:58:23,440 --> 00:58:26,960
all kinds of stuff. So just uh and if you

801
00:58:27,079 --> 00:58:29,280
if you include some of this stuff in the description, man,

802
00:58:29,360 --> 00:58:30,360
that would be a great help.

803
00:58:32,000 --> 00:58:33,840
Speaker 1: I got it all ready to go. I just copy

804
00:58:33,920 --> 00:58:36,679
and paste from the last episode and uh put it

805
00:58:36,840 --> 00:58:40,320
right over so your merch and uh links to the

806
00:58:40,400 --> 00:58:44,000
gum Roads. So yep, that's it until the next time.

807
00:58:44,199 --> 00:58:45,199
Thank you very much, Thomas.

808
00:58:45,760 --> 00:58:46,519
Speaker 2: Yeah, thank you, buddy.

809
00:58:48,679 --> 00:58:51,239
Speaker 1: I want to welcome everyone back to the Pecanana Show.

810
00:58:52,079 --> 00:58:54,280
Thomas is here. We're going to go into part two

811
00:58:55,000 --> 00:58:58,679
of Eric Hobsbamb. Are you doing Thomas, I know it

812
00:58:58,760 --> 00:59:02,960
pretty well. Thanks for hosting me, of course. So what

813
00:59:03,039 --> 00:59:04,599
are we going to look into today When it comes

814
00:59:04,639 --> 00:59:05,519
to mister Hobsbam.

815
00:59:08,079 --> 00:59:14,599
Speaker 2: I was going to expand upon his historical perspective and

816
00:59:15,760 --> 00:59:23,559
why in substance terms he opposed the schismatics, the schismatic

817
00:59:23,639 --> 00:59:26,800
tendency is and the standard bearers of those things after

818
00:59:26,920 --> 00:59:30,920
nineteen sixty eight, and people have every superficial understanding of

819
00:59:31,000 --> 00:59:36,039
Mersus Leninism and of what Sovietism was generally. You know,

820
00:59:36,199 --> 00:59:40,920
That's why I object a lot of people banning the

821
00:59:40,960 --> 00:59:48,079
phrase cultural Marxism, like there's an appropriate context to apply

822
00:59:48,199 --> 00:59:51,320
that phraseology I'm not going to say there's not, but

823
00:59:51,480 --> 00:59:55,639
generally people don't apply it in those contexts, and they

824
00:59:55,679 --> 00:59:59,000
seem to discern anything or identify anything that's at all

825
00:59:59,400 --> 01:00:06,039
like radic goal or you know, progressive and orientation, or

826
01:00:06,159 --> 01:00:10,239
that's related to the ongoing social engineering regime and like

827
01:00:10,320 --> 01:00:14,280
the paradigm that he gives rise to in like discursive terms.

828
01:00:14,480 --> 01:00:18,199
That's identify that as Marxism. I mean, that's that's grossly incorrect,

829
01:00:19,360 --> 01:00:21,159
you know. And it's not I'm not just playing word

830
01:00:21,239 --> 01:00:24,280
games or being like a pedant or something. You know.

831
01:00:24,360 --> 01:00:26,920
It's important to be clear about what we're talking about.

832
01:00:27,039 --> 01:00:30,679
Particularly we're dealing with something as kind of abstract and

833
01:00:30,960 --> 01:00:34,480
conceptual as political theory, you know, and a guy like

834
01:00:34,559 --> 01:00:37,280
Hobbs will almost a real Marxist, you know, and he

835
01:00:37,440 --> 01:00:42,360
actively disdained the standard bearers of the sorts of tendencies

836
01:00:42,400 --> 01:00:44,679
I just mentioned, you know, not because he was like

837
01:00:44,760 --> 01:00:46,840
a good guy, you're because he was correct in his

838
01:00:46,880 --> 01:00:52,599
assessment of historical phenomenon and the approximate causes of you know,

839
01:00:54,480 --> 01:00:58,119
these punctuated developments in the twentieth century. But he did

840
01:00:58,199 --> 01:01:03,599
have certain insights into history processes. You know, he's the

841
01:01:03,639 --> 01:01:06,719
one who coined the phrase the quote quote the short

842
01:01:06,880 --> 01:01:10,880
century to refer to the twentieth century. I mean, Nolty

843
01:01:10,960 --> 01:01:16,599
agreed with it. You know, the short century being the

844
01:01:16,719 --> 01:01:23,360
cycle of events that were emerged in nineteen fourteen and

845
01:01:23,480 --> 01:01:27,159
that ended on November ninth, nineteen eighty nine, you know,

846
01:01:29,360 --> 01:01:34,079
contra the long century, you know of after water after

847
01:01:34,199 --> 01:01:38,960
Waterloo until nineteen fourteen, I mean after Waterloo, other than

848
01:01:39,000 --> 01:01:42,159
the Crimean War and the Franco Prussian War, both of

849
01:01:42,199 --> 01:01:44,840
which were very localized conflicts and both of which were

850
01:01:44,920 --> 01:01:51,760
brief and neither of which really had some destructive impactfulness

851
01:01:51,840 --> 01:01:54,559
at scale on the continent. One of the reasons why

852
01:01:54,719 --> 01:01:57,480
so many mercenaries from Europe fought in the war between

853
01:01:57,519 --> 01:02:03,880
the States and even you know Henry Henry Werez, the

854
01:02:04,039 --> 01:02:08,519
commandant of Andersonville, who was unceremoniously hanged. So that's a

855
01:02:08,679 --> 01:02:13,719
that's a really grim and macabre story, everything about Andersonville

856
01:02:14,119 --> 01:02:17,320
and his demise. But he was a Swiss national who

857
01:02:17,360 --> 01:02:20,920
found his way in the United States, you know, because

858
01:02:20,960 --> 01:02:23,400
that's where the action was. You know, don't get me wrong,

859
01:02:23,559 --> 01:02:26,800
Like all kinds of punctuated things were happening in Europe

860
01:02:27,719 --> 01:02:32,159
of a technological nature of a developmental nature. But like

861
01:02:32,400 --> 01:02:37,519
power political affairs weren't really happening there, you know. I mean,

862
01:02:37,599 --> 01:02:40,639
and and if you take a long view, yes, okay,

863
01:02:40,760 --> 01:02:44,000
that kind of thing is always underway. But in Warren

864
01:02:44,079 --> 01:02:48,480
peace terms, they were not punctuated crises. There were not

865
01:02:50,559 --> 01:02:56,559
you know, crisis modalities that were emerging that you know,

866
01:02:56,719 --> 01:03:01,039
generated a need for men under arms and men with

867
01:03:01,119 --> 01:03:05,159
adjacent sorts of skill sets, you know, to participate in

868
01:03:05,920 --> 01:03:11,119
in those sorts of those sorts of uh happenings. But

869
01:03:11,199 --> 01:03:14,280
in America, obviously you better believe that was underway. And

870
01:03:14,400 --> 01:03:19,039
it's some this is a tangent. I'll make it brief,

871
01:03:19,159 --> 01:03:24,639
but you know McLellan who was famously sex by Lincoln,

872
01:03:26,199 --> 01:03:29,920
you know, and he you know Lincoln, I'm paraphrasing, but

873
01:03:30,119 --> 01:03:33,599
you know, Lincoln family said, you know, I've got I've

874
01:03:33,639 --> 01:03:37,920
got a commanding general who refuses to assault, you know.

875
01:03:38,079 --> 01:03:43,239
And uh so his detractors and not just among not

876
01:03:43,360 --> 01:03:47,679
just among radical reformers and abolitionist but even pretty moderate

877
01:03:47,760 --> 01:03:50,400
people either band they branded him some kind of coward

878
01:03:50,480 --> 01:03:53,960
who was like afraid of being under fire or this,

879
01:03:54,239 --> 01:03:57,000
or he was some kind of like secret Copperhead. He

880
01:03:57,079 --> 01:03:59,119
was in neither of those things. He'd been on the

881
01:03:59,159 --> 01:04:01,320
ground in prime me because before the war in the

882
01:04:01,360 --> 01:04:04,800
States kicked off, other than the Indian Wars, which were

883
01:04:04,840 --> 01:04:09,519
utterly savage, but we're not. But in scope and scale,

884
01:04:09,519 --> 01:04:15,679
we're very limited, you know, other than that, like conventional

885
01:04:17,840 --> 01:04:20,760
combined ours what was then emerging combined arms, you know,

886
01:04:20,880 --> 01:04:23,760
indirect fire, like the only way you really I mean

887
01:04:23,840 --> 01:04:26,920
liaising with foreign militaries was like something that was done

888
01:04:26,960 --> 01:04:29,920
in the Western world anyway. But it's also like if

889
01:04:29,960 --> 01:04:33,480
you wanted to, you know, if you wanted to, if

890
01:04:33,519 --> 01:04:36,320
you wanted to cut your teeth in a combat zone.

891
01:04:37,199 --> 01:04:40,719
You know McClellan's generation, Well, you went to Europe, you know,

892
01:04:40,800 --> 01:04:44,000
you drilled with the Prussians, or you know, you you

893
01:04:44,079 --> 01:04:47,320
were a liaison to the French or the British. And

894
01:04:47,800 --> 01:04:50,480
McClelland saw what was happening on the ground in Crimea,

895
01:04:51,440 --> 01:04:53,360
and you saw the Master artillery and what it was

896
01:04:53,440 --> 01:04:56,760
doing to the human body, and he's like, this is horrific.

897
01:04:57,519 --> 01:05:00,119
So he's like, if we if we we started it,

898
01:05:01,239 --> 01:05:04,239
if we start if we start cavalry charging like masks,

899
01:05:04,280 --> 01:05:08,159
Confederate artillery, like this is gonna be a slaughter, and

900
01:05:08,280 --> 01:05:12,840
that's what happened, you know. But uh, this is sort

901
01:05:12,840 --> 01:05:18,360
of an aside when any event, you know, uh, to

902
01:05:18,440 --> 01:05:21,719
bring it back to where we should be at. I

903
01:05:25,159 --> 01:05:28,199
I did it right up years back of Paul Godfrey's

904
01:05:28,400 --> 01:05:31,159
talk and his paper. You know how the left won

905
01:05:31,239 --> 01:05:33,440
the Cold War? Because the Left did win the Cold War.

906
01:05:35,000 --> 01:05:40,559
The people like Hobsbaum lost the Cold War, you know,

907
01:05:40,760 --> 01:05:45,800
the standard bearers of Sovietism and of uh. I don't

908
01:05:45,840 --> 01:05:48,480
think Hosmam was a stalinist in the sense that somebody

909
01:05:48,639 --> 01:05:51,039
like Dougan kind of is, or in the way more

910
01:05:51,039 --> 01:05:52,920
and more properly. He's not a stalinist in the way

911
01:05:52,960 --> 01:05:56,960
that guys like Jackson Hinkle are. But I mean he wasn't.

912
01:05:57,199 --> 01:06:02,079
He wasn't opposed to that tendency either, you know. And

913
01:06:02,239 --> 01:06:05,719
like we got into he stated and know un certain terms,

914
01:06:06,000 --> 01:06:10,880
you know, after after the energym and border came down

915
01:06:12,360 --> 01:06:17,400
that you know, whatever happened in the Soviet Union, but

916
01:06:17,599 --> 01:06:22,840
it had the had the Communist revolution been realized, it

917
01:06:22,880 --> 01:06:24,800
would have been worth it in his opinion, you know.

918
01:06:24,840 --> 01:06:29,239
And that's so he was. He was honest about, you know,

919
01:06:31,480 --> 01:06:34,360
about that perspective. And I mean, that's the way every

920
01:06:35,199 --> 01:06:38,280
that's the way every Marcist Leninists thought, you know, and

921
01:06:38,400 --> 01:06:40,920
and such that they still exist today. I don't think

922
01:06:40,920 --> 01:06:44,199
guys like Hankle when like the kind of reconstituted American

923
01:06:44,280 --> 01:06:47,239
Communist Party, they've also got a presence on the East

924
01:06:47,320 --> 01:06:51,400
Coast these days. They're distinct from like whatever this vestigial

925
01:06:51,800 --> 01:06:53,679
Communist Party USA, which are just like a bunch of

926
01:06:53,800 --> 01:06:55,960
liberals who don't know what the fuck they're talking about.

927
01:06:56,079 --> 01:06:59,840
But kind of like the reconstituted American Communist Party, I mean,

928
01:06:59,880 --> 01:07:03,159
they believe that too, but they're kind of they're they're

929
01:07:03,199 --> 01:07:06,360
kind of like a dialectical offshoot of what was the

930
01:07:06,440 --> 01:07:10,599
Marcus Lennon's perspective. I think that they uh, I think

931
01:07:10,599 --> 01:07:13,880
they're big on guys like Emmanuel Wallerstein and like they

932
01:07:14,000 --> 01:07:18,320
they subscribed like global systems theory, which is serious stuff.

933
01:07:18,480 --> 01:07:21,719
But but they are like stylinists, like they don't you know,

934
01:07:21,800 --> 01:07:25,679
they're they tolerate religious people these days, they're not. They're

935
01:07:25,719 --> 01:07:30,079
not these like doctrinal atheists who view themselves as being

936
01:07:30,159 --> 01:07:34,000
at war with established churches and things like. They're tolerant

937
01:07:34,039 --> 01:07:37,400
to that, but they're they remain like atheistic, Like what

938
01:07:37,599 --> 01:07:41,880
was it matter if you killed twenty million people to advance, uh,

939
01:07:42,679 --> 01:07:45,679
you know the realization of true communism, Like it doesn't

940
01:07:45,719 --> 01:07:48,480
matter because well you know that that that's that's just

941
01:07:48,599 --> 01:07:52,079
creative destruction and and human if humans are just so

942
01:07:52,199 --> 01:07:55,960
much mentioned material and mentally more valuable than you know,

943
01:07:56,159 --> 01:08:01,320
animal livestock or material things that may be as they

944
01:08:01,400 --> 01:08:04,000
may be, there there's still just like so much you know, material,

945
01:08:04,719 --> 01:08:08,039
you know, and that uh, that's important to keep in mind.

946
01:08:08,079 --> 01:08:11,280
I mean, I'm not not just I'm not being you know, not,

947
01:08:11,360 --> 01:08:13,559
I'm not like moralizing here saying like and this is

948
01:08:13,639 --> 01:08:17,399
why the communists are a bunch of slavery bees. I

949
01:08:17,479 --> 01:08:21,920
think that their worldview in addition to being kind of

950
01:08:22,000 --> 01:08:27,399
laughably up to and it's there, Yeah, I believe it's

951
01:08:27,479 --> 01:08:31,359
like highly corrupt morally, But that's that's not at base.

952
01:08:31,439 --> 01:08:35,479
It's not really why people like me like object to

953
01:08:35,520 --> 01:08:39,239
their perspective, you know. But at the same time, you know,

954
01:08:39,399 --> 01:08:43,199
I uh, for some reason the kinds of people people

955
01:08:43,279 --> 01:08:45,359
looks like Chompsky all the time. And don't get me wrong,

956
01:08:45,439 --> 01:08:47,319
like I think Chomsky wrote some pretty good stuff on

957
01:08:47,439 --> 01:08:53,439
linguistics and he he he uh. He'd be pretty handily

958
01:08:53,640 --> 01:08:56,720
treated people like Fuco, who considered to be kind of

959
01:08:56,800 --> 01:09:00,600
unserious degenerates. But I mean Chompsky, Chomsky's basically like a

960
01:09:00,680 --> 01:09:03,640
moralizer and a polemicist, and I don't think he's got

961
01:09:03,760 --> 01:09:06,520
to really develop view of political theory. But I mean,

962
01:09:06,560 --> 01:09:08,520
I mean guys on the right, or at least guys

963
01:09:08,640 --> 01:09:12,119
kind of adjacent they don't have data, say Chomsky, but

964
01:09:12,159 --> 01:09:14,319
then they act like I'm some weirdo where like it's

965
01:09:14,880 --> 01:09:17,520
being like dev and I said, hobbsbamb you know, like

966
01:09:17,600 --> 01:09:20,760
Howsong was a serious historian man like unlike Chomsky, he

967
01:09:20,920 --> 01:09:24,760
like drops polemic about like you know, America is doing

968
01:09:24,920 --> 01:09:29,159
mean things but the electonomy wrong, like America is there

969
01:09:29,199 --> 01:09:32,600
to be savage. But the day Chompsky, you know, he's

970
01:09:32,840 --> 01:09:35,279
he comes off like some handwringing old woman. And I don't,

971
01:09:36,720 --> 01:09:38,840
I don't. I don't think he's a real political theorist,

972
01:09:38,960 --> 01:09:41,359
you know, like it's I don't it's not just me

973
01:09:42,079 --> 01:09:46,520
kind of guarding my own proverbial wheelhouse. I you know,

974
01:09:47,640 --> 01:09:52,279
at the level of deep analysis like Nolt and Hosbom

975
01:09:52,439 --> 01:09:56,000
and like economy political economs, like Joseph Schumpeter, the suits

976
01:09:56,039 --> 01:09:59,079
of insights they were capable of, like in the moment.

977
01:09:59,279 --> 01:10:02,760
Most people can't do that, you know. And I meet

978
01:10:02,760 --> 01:10:06,920
a lot of guys whoever this idea that you know,

979
01:10:07,000 --> 01:10:09,680
oh you're like a mathematician or like you sell insurance

980
01:10:09,840 --> 01:10:14,279
or like you're, you know, some kind of molecular biologists.

981
01:10:14,319 --> 01:10:16,680
But oh, anybody you can have a take on putical theory.

982
01:10:16,800 --> 01:10:18,680
It's like, what the fuck are you talking about? You know.

983
01:10:18,760 --> 01:10:20,840
And that's these guys that would no insight. It's not

984
01:10:20,880 --> 01:10:23,000
even made like IQ man, Like these guys are like

985
01:10:23,079 --> 01:10:26,039
way smarter than I am, you know, and but they

986
01:10:26,199 --> 01:10:28,760
they're but they're like conceptually illiterate. It's because they can't

987
01:10:29,279 --> 01:10:33,319
discern the relevant patterns and things, you know, Like it's

988
01:10:33,439 --> 01:10:35,560
it's not like an intelligence thing. Yeah I don't you can.

989
01:10:35,960 --> 01:10:38,760
Speaker 1: I mean, I accuse of religion. Now on the right,

990
01:10:39,720 --> 01:10:42,319
on some parts of the right. I mean, if you

991
01:10:42,479 --> 01:10:46,840
mentioned IQ and you do anything to like take one

992
01:10:47,000 --> 01:10:50,800
step to say, well, you know, it really doesn't matter

993
01:10:50,880 --> 01:10:53,359
with this, they just oh, that's cope, that's cope, Bro,

994
01:10:53,920 --> 01:10:54,520
that's cope.

995
01:10:55,560 --> 01:10:58,640
Speaker 2: Well, no, they're retards and that's like outmoded thinking. You know,

996
01:10:58,680 --> 01:11:02,159
like I was making the point like Bill Gates, I

997
01:11:02,239 --> 01:11:06,439
guarantee you has a higher IQ than Muhammad, Promo, Napoleon

998
01:11:06,520 --> 01:11:10,079
or Hitler. He's also like a total shithead. He's totally

999
01:11:10,119 --> 01:11:13,880
devoid of any creativity and in somebody's the fucking idiots,

1000
01:11:14,479 --> 01:11:18,079
and like nobody is gonna die for Bill Gates. Okay,

1001
01:11:18,239 --> 01:11:20,880
I mean it's like, okay, great, Like there's some there's

1002
01:11:20,880 --> 01:11:23,279
some Chinese guy who'd like faint. Have you ever saw

1003
01:11:23,399 --> 01:11:25,760
like a girl naked and lives with his mommy And

1004
01:11:25,880 --> 01:11:28,720
he's got an IQ of like two hundred. Okay, that's awesome.

1005
01:11:29,439 --> 01:11:31,760
If I need somebody to do like math problems nobody

1006
01:11:31,800 --> 01:11:33,720
can do, I'll hire him to do that. But I

1007
01:11:33,840 --> 01:11:36,359
don't understand why I should give a fuck, you know,

1008
01:11:36,520 --> 01:11:40,840
like it's basically, you know what IQ is, man, IQ

1009
01:11:41,159 --> 01:11:44,600
is a it's like it's it's cold or managerialism, whereby

1010
01:11:44,720 --> 01:11:48,279
it's like, look, we basically like like we need like

1011
01:11:48,399 --> 01:11:51,600
widget makers, and we need guys who manage the widget factory,

1012
01:11:51,920 --> 01:11:54,520
and we need some criteria where can identify people who

1013
01:11:54,600 --> 01:11:58,239
below a certain threshold are basically subnormal and useless. That's

1014
01:11:58,239 --> 01:12:01,640
what IQ is. It's not like you know, oh, if

1015
01:12:01,640 --> 01:12:05,239
you're like Q was this high, you know, you're you're

1016
01:12:05,279 --> 01:12:07,920
you're gonna like lead like a revolution and conquer the

1017
01:12:07,960 --> 01:12:11,600
Arabian Peninsula. Or if like your iqes like within these parameters,

1018
01:12:12,000 --> 01:12:15,079
like you're Adolf Hitler, or I mean it's fucking retarded,

1019
01:12:15,199 --> 01:12:17,760
like it doesn't and I mean for people I've been

1020
01:12:17,800 --> 01:12:20,199
meaning someone vod Measy and sort of like that, and

1021
01:12:20,279 --> 01:12:25,199
it's like you're basically taking you're basically taking, uh, this

1022
01:12:25,399 --> 01:12:28,880
kind of ridiculous sort of like bureaucrats fetish from the

1023
01:12:28,920 --> 01:12:31,800
public school system and like deciding it's like some like

1024
01:12:31,920 --> 01:12:35,119
holy criteria, like and they don't even realize that's what

1025
01:12:35,119 --> 01:12:38,840
they're doing. So but yeah, we'll get into the substance

1026
01:12:38,880 --> 01:12:41,880
of what we need to talk about today. I uh,

1027
01:12:42,479 --> 01:12:48,199
I didn't mean to uh whip off about about tangents,

1028
01:12:48,239 --> 01:12:51,439
but I made the point before you know, Hobsbam, he

1029
01:12:51,479 --> 01:12:53,800
talked a lot about the origins of nationalism, and to

1030
01:12:53,880 --> 01:12:56,159
clarify because I don't want people jumping over my shit.

1031
01:12:56,760 --> 01:13:00,680
We're not talking about believing in one's knows. We're not

1032
01:13:00,760 --> 01:13:03,279
talking about caring about your race, We're not talking about

1033
01:13:03,279 --> 01:13:05,640
any of that. We're talking about this kind of like

1034
01:13:05,760 --> 01:13:11,560
progressive modernist like political modality, like organizing modality called nationalism,

1035
01:13:13,079 --> 01:13:15,800
which is the base of liberal idea. And it basically

1036
01:13:15,880 --> 01:13:20,119
arbitrarily says, you know, kind of the classical view of sovereignty,

1037
01:13:20,640 --> 01:13:24,680
whether it invests in like a royal dynasty, or whether

1038
01:13:24,760 --> 01:13:28,720
it invests in you know, you know, men who are

1039
01:13:28,840 --> 01:13:31,439
kind of like you know, for all parate parsons, an

1040
01:13:31,439 --> 01:13:35,319
elected king by the police in lieu with that, it says,

1041
01:13:35,520 --> 01:13:39,439
like all these people in this geographic area who happen

1042
01:13:39,520 --> 01:13:43,640
to have linguistic fluency, and like we've declared the national dialect.

1043
01:13:44,000 --> 01:13:47,159
You're part of this nation now, you know, it doesn't

1044
01:13:47,239 --> 01:13:50,119
matter what religion you are, It doesn't matter where your

1045
01:13:50,199 --> 01:13:54,479
loyalties lie in terms of things that supersede you know,

1046
01:13:54,800 --> 01:13:59,039
administrative politics. This is just like the French nation, or

1047
01:13:59,079 --> 01:14:03,000
this is the polar nation. And famously Hitler said that

1048
01:14:03,159 --> 01:14:06,600
was about the biggest obstacle to Germany being able to

1049
01:14:06,640 --> 01:14:10,279
project power on the world stage. As people internalize this

1050
01:14:10,439 --> 01:14:15,479
nonsense and it became this kind of like self defeating imperative,

1051
01:14:16,479 --> 01:14:22,079
like whereby people mired in this kind of alienated circumstance

1052
01:14:22,239 --> 01:14:27,000
wrought by industrial urban modernity. They kind of like clung

1053
01:14:27,079 --> 01:14:30,520
to this idea of like a nationalist like political model.

1054
01:14:30,760 --> 01:14:33,680
And again we're not talking about real like belief and

1055
01:14:33,720 --> 01:14:37,199
what's ethnos, We're talking about a contrivance, you know, and

1056
01:14:37,319 --> 01:14:40,960
the and it's also Habswam made the point and we're

1057
01:14:41,039 --> 01:14:45,319
so made the same point. Nationalism it based as individualistic.

1058
01:14:45,479 --> 01:14:48,560
It emerged as a liberal idea and entailed the notion

1059
01:14:48,680 --> 01:14:52,119
of Okay, here's this nation based on these arbitrary criteria.

1060
01:14:52,600 --> 01:14:55,079
They generally have to do with the ability to communicate

1061
01:14:55,359 --> 01:14:59,279
and mutual intelligibility. But it's made up in the estimation

1062
01:14:59,479 --> 01:15:04,920
of people who contrived the cityology of individual citizens, and

1063
01:15:05,079 --> 01:15:09,520
every individual is recognized by the nation, you know, as

1064
01:15:09,640 --> 01:15:14,800
as some kind of like sovereign decision maker unto himself,

1065
01:15:15,359 --> 01:15:18,359
like obviously the rubber meets the road, and nobody abides

1066
01:15:18,439 --> 01:15:21,960
that who's actually in power. But that's the theory, and

1067
01:15:22,039 --> 01:15:25,520
that's kind of like the moral mythology of it. You know,

1068
01:15:27,880 --> 01:15:31,439
this is extremely at odds with the past, you know,

1069
01:15:32,319 --> 01:15:36,319
where your responsibility was to your monarch or to the

1070
01:15:36,399 --> 01:15:40,880
local lord and above him and ultimately like to you know,

1071
01:15:41,199 --> 01:15:45,119
your your faith and the representatives of your confessional heritage

1072
01:15:46,000 --> 01:15:50,600
and your rights and privileges accrued from your profession or

1073
01:15:50,720 --> 01:15:54,399
from you know, the social and collective or corporate corporative

1074
01:15:54,479 --> 01:15:57,880
groups that you belong to. You know, the whole point

1075
01:15:57,920 --> 01:16:01,319
of nationalism is it tears all that you know, these

1076
01:16:01,399 --> 01:16:05,439
kind of natural ancient communitarian bonds. No, no, no, that's

1077
01:16:05,439 --> 01:16:09,560
the illegitimate. Now you're just an individual, but you're part

1078
01:16:09,600 --> 01:16:12,439
of this body politic because you happen to speak French,

1079
01:16:12,880 --> 01:16:15,439
or you happen to speak Polish, or like, you know,

1080
01:16:16,039 --> 01:16:19,000
you happen to be somebody who speaks like High German,

1081
01:16:19,119 --> 01:16:22,119
but you live in Belgium. Like that's that's what we're

1082
01:16:22,159 --> 01:16:25,239
talking about. That's what he was talking about, you know.

1083
01:16:25,439 --> 01:16:29,960
And that's Cobsbohmb's take, which was well placed, was that

1084
01:16:30,079 --> 01:16:33,920
conservatism is just it's just like it's just like liberal individualism.

1085
01:16:34,760 --> 01:16:38,760
That's basically a kind of class war against aristocracy by

1086
01:16:38,880 --> 01:16:43,199
like a thirsty and kind of covetist like capitalist class

1087
01:16:43,800 --> 01:16:47,520
go on to like discredit everything that came before, say no, no, no,

1088
01:16:48,000 --> 01:16:51,000
all these things that are important, you know, relating to

1089
01:16:51,159 --> 01:16:54,439
national identity, Like we're the ones who are the managers

1090
01:16:54,479 --> 01:16:58,920
those things. And you know, everybody's an individual, but you

1091
01:16:59,079 --> 01:17:02,840
need us to like guard these individual rights. Like that's

1092
01:17:03,199 --> 01:17:06,680
what nationalism is in the capital end sense. It's not

1093
01:17:06,880 --> 01:17:09,640
saying I don't live in multiculturalism. It's not saying I'm

1094
01:17:09,640 --> 01:17:12,520
proud to be white. It's not saying, you know, I

1095
01:17:13,319 --> 01:17:15,199
want my country to be owners and Catholic. There has

1096
01:17:15,239 --> 01:17:17,960
nothing to do with it. Nothing. And that's one of

1097
01:17:17,960 --> 01:17:21,560
the reasons why these quote unquote nationalist governments they like

1098
01:17:21,640 --> 01:17:24,760
never lead anything, you know, and the moment they go away,

1099
01:17:26,079 --> 01:17:29,560
you know what little kind of concessions there were, the

1100
01:17:29,720 --> 01:17:33,359
kind of preserving normalcy, just like evamplites, because it's a

1101
01:17:33,760 --> 01:17:37,920
it's a house, it's a paper house, you know. And

1102
01:17:40,239 --> 01:17:44,720
Hobsbaum was very big on what he called the Dual Revolution.

1103
01:17:45,039 --> 01:17:47,159
I mean, my stay was big on it. I mean

1104
01:17:47,239 --> 01:17:52,319
he identified he identified the dual Revolution as a historical

1105
01:17:52,399 --> 01:17:56,600
phenomenon that came to shape governmental imperatives and came to

1106
01:17:56,680 --> 01:18:01,840
kind of frame everything related to do you know the

1107
01:18:01,920 --> 01:18:07,520
political sphere of activity, both you know, in theoretical capacities

1108
01:18:07,560 --> 01:18:10,399
as well as in terms of praxis and what actually developed,

1109
01:18:10,840 --> 01:18:14,079
Like what do you mean by the dual revolution specifically?

1110
01:18:14,199 --> 01:18:16,800
And as we got into before last time, and we're

1111
01:18:16,840 --> 01:18:20,439
talking about Hobbsbom's kind of like four value magnum opus,

1112
01:18:20,680 --> 01:18:22,640
you know, dealing with the age of the Age of

1113
01:18:22,720 --> 01:18:30,000
Revolution between seventeen eighty nine eighteen forty eight. House Slamp's

1114
01:18:30,039 --> 01:18:33,279
take is that, okay, you know, the jacob and Revolution

1115
01:18:33,439 --> 01:18:36,199
and all this kind of radicalism and all this all

1116
01:18:36,239 --> 01:18:39,840
this abchieval. You know, He's like that was inextricably bound

1117
01:18:40,000 --> 01:18:44,720
up with like technological and economic changes that they constituted

1118
01:18:44,720 --> 01:18:47,079
this kind of grand future shock, you know, really like

1119
01:18:47,119 --> 01:18:50,199
the first industry revolution. So is that you can't extricate

1120
01:18:50,279 --> 01:18:54,399
these things. You know that they're very Marxist len in

1121
01:18:54,439 --> 01:18:58,960
this view of it, but they're not wrong. You can't

1122
01:18:59,000 --> 01:19:02,960
really you can't really identify like what came first or

1123
01:19:03,039 --> 01:19:05,439
what was the Pride move on. It was both of

1124
01:19:05,520 --> 01:19:08,479
these things, you know, kind of like inextriguably tethered doing

1125
01:19:08,560 --> 01:19:15,199
another a combination of like dialectical process and conceptual activity

1126
01:19:15,840 --> 01:19:19,520
as well as you know, kind of the the binding

1127
01:19:19,680 --> 01:19:23,239
up of of economic imperatives with political life in a

1128
01:19:23,279 --> 01:19:30,479
way that hadn't happened before. So, you know, these Enlightenment ideas,

1129
01:19:30,680 --> 01:19:34,800
which on the one hand are kind of hollow ideological phraseology,

1130
01:19:36,119 --> 01:19:39,079
these kinds of you know, democracy like but not real

1131
01:19:39,199 --> 01:19:46,000
democracy like you know, procedural procedural democracy like nationalism and liberalism.

1132
01:19:46,880 --> 01:19:50,000
This kind of stuff gained traction because people were getting

1133
01:19:50,119 --> 01:19:53,319
crushed by these new economic modalities that nobody knew how

1134
01:19:53,359 --> 01:19:58,560
to manage, you know, and old wealth was being wiped

1135
01:19:58,600 --> 01:20:04,880
out handover fists, you know, So there was charistrotic effects

1136
01:20:04,960 --> 01:20:08,359
to this. So like people looking for remedies, you know,

1137
01:20:09,359 --> 01:20:13,039
they were uniquely susceptible to this kind of thought. But

1138
01:20:13,159 --> 01:20:16,119
they also people develop these kinds of ideas based on

1139
01:20:16,520 --> 01:20:19,479
these disruptions, you know, because they were kind of ripped

1140
01:20:19,520 --> 01:20:25,479
out of environs where they had meaningful reference points beyond

1141
01:20:25,560 --> 01:20:29,600
their own lives, you know, and uh, people's lives are

1142
01:20:29,640 --> 01:20:35,279
comparatively short then, you know. And so this this this

1143
01:20:35,439 --> 01:20:40,439
kind of taken together, this developed its own momentum. It

1144
01:20:40,520 --> 01:20:43,880
was like both a process and an animating principle as

1145
01:20:43,920 --> 01:20:49,119
well as uh, you know, like a key like framing

1146
01:20:50,880 --> 01:21:00,399
a key framing device of of of the zeitgeist, you know. Now,

1147
01:21:01,159 --> 01:21:05,760
when the French Revolution was defeated, you know, and and

1148
01:21:06,000 --> 01:21:09,680
particularly after you know, Waterloo, I mean, because Napoleon. Uh,

1149
01:21:11,920 --> 01:21:15,079
Napoleon was a lot like Cromwell and a lot like Hitler.

1150
01:21:17,720 --> 01:21:20,479
I agree with Russell Stoffley. I think Hitler was more

1151
01:21:20,560 --> 01:21:25,399
like Mohammad than he was anybody. But and Napoleon didn't

1152
01:21:25,479 --> 01:21:31,239
have that messianic uh sensibility. I'm talking in political terms,

1153
01:21:31,319 --> 01:21:37,119
not in like theological ones. But what happened in the

1154
01:21:37,439 --> 01:21:39,760
I mean, what happened in the Reign of Terror and

1155
01:21:39,800 --> 01:21:44,199
what happened in the aftermath when Napoleon literally trying to

1156
01:21:44,319 --> 01:21:49,560
conquer the continent and you know, become Emperor of Europa.

1157
01:21:52,039 --> 01:21:56,520
The view from what remained, like the royal courts in Europe,

1158
01:21:57,840 --> 01:22:00,239
and the view from kind of like the nas and

1159
01:22:01,039 --> 01:22:06,720
political managerial class was this can never ever happen again. Okay,

1160
01:22:08,479 --> 01:22:13,079
So the Congress of Vienna Metternich kind of first and

1161
01:22:13,199 --> 01:22:17,399
foremost among this type, you know, kind of like the

1162
01:22:17,479 --> 01:22:21,319
whole raison deetra of state craft became like balance of power,

1163
01:22:22,279 --> 01:22:27,439
you know. E. Michael Jones makes the point that all

1164
01:22:27,560 --> 01:22:32,840
rationalist perspectives partake in some way of like Newtonian physics,

1165
01:22:33,399 --> 01:22:35,920
you know, this kind of like perfect balance of like

1166
01:22:36,119 --> 01:22:40,079
dynamic but totally controlled motion. It's more complicated than that,

1167
01:22:40,239 --> 01:22:42,159
and Jones is its own as a very like punitive

1168
01:22:42,239 --> 01:22:43,920
view of like Newton. I don't want to get into that,

1169
01:22:45,520 --> 01:22:50,199
but he's right about what I just indicated, okay, And

1170
01:22:50,439 --> 01:22:55,279
balance of power politics, that's where it comes from, okay,

1171
01:22:56,479 --> 01:22:59,199
And that's why it's misguided when a lot of these

1172
01:22:59,279 --> 01:23:04,000
people it's kind of like the mantra of the Midwidth that, oh,

1173
01:23:04,239 --> 01:23:10,000
Churchill wasn't crazy, and Churchill wasn't totally corrupted, you know,

1174
01:23:10,159 --> 01:23:15,159
by alien interests. He was just trying to maintain the

1175
01:23:15,319 --> 01:23:19,039
balance of power and no European power can become too strong.

1176
01:23:19,359 --> 01:23:22,720
That's not at all what he was doing. And that

1177
01:23:22,880 --> 01:23:25,960
was obsolete anyway by the twentieth century. That got shot

1178
01:23:26,039 --> 01:23:30,840
to pieces in nineteen fourteen, and nobody thought that way anymore, okay.

1179
01:23:31,720 --> 01:23:33,760
And that's why the reasons why it was apocalyptic thinking

1180
01:23:33,880 --> 01:23:36,680
came about in the twentieth century, because what had been

1181
01:23:36,760 --> 01:23:42,399
the return to like rationalist normalcy that died in the

1182
01:23:42,479 --> 01:23:45,600
trenches along with millions of guys who got blown to bits.

1183
01:23:45,640 --> 01:23:48,119
It died like buried beneath like the mud and shit

1184
01:23:48,279 --> 01:23:50,880
and all of their body parts. Nobody thought that way,

1185
01:23:51,920 --> 01:23:55,039
and that's not what Churchill was doing. And even if

1186
01:23:55,079 --> 01:23:59,439
it was, that's that that be a ridiculous mission to

1187
01:23:59,520 --> 01:24:02,279
take on in nineteen thirty nine, It would make no sense.

1188
01:24:03,439 --> 01:24:09,560
But that's the uh, that's the source of this kind

1189
01:24:09,600 --> 01:24:14,399
of like reactionary stance. And Hoswam calls it reactionary equals

1190
01:24:14,439 --> 01:24:18,600
the Matrinage perspective reactionary because it's not truly conservative. It's

1191
01:24:18,680 --> 01:24:23,000
literally a reaction. It's saying, how do we deal with

1192
01:24:23,119 --> 01:24:28,279
future shock? How do we deal with the disruption of

1193
01:24:28,880 --> 01:24:33,279
this kind of like rational balancing of furies? How do

1194
01:24:33,399 --> 01:24:38,399
we restore something manageable and something that is primarily governed

1195
01:24:38,439 --> 01:24:40,800
by reason? You know, here is how we do it.

1196
01:24:41,000 --> 01:24:44,359
We do it by like managing power, you know, like

1197
01:24:44,439 --> 01:24:47,439
it's some kind of like it like it's some kind

1198
01:24:47,439 --> 01:24:50,079
of quantity of energy you know that can be like

1199
01:24:50,239 --> 01:24:53,600
redirected and or kind of purpose towards this or you know,

1200
01:24:53,600 --> 01:24:58,079
almost like an engineering problem. Okay, that's that's what is

1201
01:24:58,199 --> 01:25:02,760
meant by reactionary. Because it wasn't nobody, not Metterniche, not

1202
01:25:02,960 --> 01:25:07,960
the people in the Congress at Vienna, not not you know,

1203
01:25:08,039 --> 01:25:10,840
not the people who later opposed the eighteen forty eight revolutions.

1204
01:25:11,079 --> 01:25:13,880
Nobody was saying we're gonna go back to having you know,

1205
01:25:14,039 --> 01:25:17,880
like a king holds absolute sovereignty. Nobody was saying, we're

1206
01:25:17,920 --> 01:25:19,840
gonna go back to you know, the pope being the

1207
01:25:19,920 --> 01:25:23,439
true like Emperor of Europe is God's emissary. Nobody was

1208
01:25:23,479 --> 01:25:27,439
saying that. It wasn't even they would have like scoffed

1209
01:25:27,479 --> 01:25:30,359
at that prospect, but it wasn't even within their contemplation.

1210
01:25:31,119 --> 01:25:33,800
You know. It was a reaction, okay, and the fact

1211
01:25:33,800 --> 01:25:38,039
that it had some trappings of what came before that

1212
01:25:38,239 --> 01:25:41,680
really had more to do with an interest in stability

1213
01:25:41,800 --> 01:25:47,439
moving forward and like Enlightenment ideology, conceptual biases than it

1214
01:25:47,479 --> 01:25:50,000
did with any like, oh, we gotta guard tradition and

1215
01:25:50,039 --> 01:25:54,039
we got to guard like the organic basis of national

1216
01:25:54,159 --> 01:25:57,399
life or so this is really important. Okay. This is

1217
01:25:57,439 --> 01:26:00,399
one of the reasons I cite Hosba because conservative are

1218
01:26:00,479 --> 01:26:04,399
not traditionalists. They're not trying to like preserve like the

1219
01:26:04,640 --> 01:26:07,560
integrity of your race, if that's important to you or whatever.

1220
01:26:07,840 --> 01:26:10,279
They're not trying to that. They're not they're not trying

1221
01:26:10,319 --> 01:26:13,359
to undo modernity. They're not trying to I mean, I'm

1222
01:26:13,359 --> 01:26:15,239
not even saying that's good, but that they're not doing that.

1223
01:26:15,960 --> 01:26:19,199
You know, they're they're they're they're arch modernists. They're arch

1224
01:26:19,279 --> 01:26:23,600
modernist liberals who are trying to manage revolutionary imperatives and

1225
01:26:23,720 --> 01:26:26,319
stop them from happening. Whether they're from the left or

1226
01:26:26,319 --> 01:26:28,920
whether they're from the right, you know, no matter where

1227
01:26:28,960 --> 01:26:32,039
they come from, that is their notion. That's why conservatism

1228
01:26:32,239 --> 01:26:37,439
is bullshit, you know. And this is uh you know again,

1229
01:26:37,560 --> 01:26:40,880
that's if people, I know, not everybody wants to sit

1230
01:26:40,920 --> 01:26:45,960
around reading politable theory like I do. But it's like, okay,

1231
01:26:46,760 --> 01:26:48,800
this is why you should beat Hobsbaum just as like

1232
01:26:48,840 --> 01:26:53,079
an educated partisan, Okay, because he's right about those things,

1233
01:26:53,840 --> 01:26:58,399
like his conclusions in terms of like applied UH efforts

1234
01:26:59,359 --> 01:27:03,000
and his conclusions in terms of what's desirable are wrong,

1235
01:27:03,720 --> 01:27:09,560
but his diagnostic process isn't wrong, and his observations aren't wrong.

1236
01:27:09,840 --> 01:27:17,920
They're generally correct, you know. And again the Marxist over

1237
01:27:18,039 --> 01:27:23,760
emphasize this. But you know, the degree and the degree

1238
01:27:23,840 --> 01:27:28,920
to which suddenly production got taken out of like a

1239
01:27:28,960 --> 01:27:33,119
communitarian shop or like your household, to go from being

1240
01:27:33,199 --> 01:27:37,039
like I'm a farmer, and you know, I'm a subsistence farmer,

1241
01:27:37,239 --> 01:27:39,880
but I have enough surplus to trade with other farmers,

1242
01:27:40,720 --> 01:27:42,880
or going from being like a blacksmith where you're part

1243
01:27:42,920 --> 01:27:45,399
of some collective with like three other guys and you

1244
01:27:45,560 --> 01:27:48,520
like make stuff people need, getting ripped out of that

1245
01:27:50,079 --> 01:27:52,279
and going to work in a factory where you're literally

1246
01:27:52,399 --> 01:27:56,640
pulling a lever or like manhandling some dangerous machine for

1247
01:27:56,760 --> 01:28:01,760
ten hours a day. That's probably that's about the most

1248
01:28:01,800 --> 01:28:06,039
disrupted thing that's ever happened to people at scale, you know.

1249
01:28:06,399 --> 01:28:09,680
And it's and on top of that too, the introduction

1250
01:28:09,800 --> 01:28:14,720
of money at scale, like anything, all all indicators of

1251
01:28:14,920 --> 01:28:20,359
wealth that for forty thousand years quite literally, like people

1252
01:28:20,399 --> 01:28:22,239
were habituated to. No no, no, no no. Now you

1253
01:28:22,319 --> 01:28:25,880
get a paper certificate and it's fungible, and you can

1254
01:28:25,960 --> 01:28:28,560
find somebody who like has stuff you need, they'll accept

1255
01:28:28,600 --> 01:28:32,600
that this is this is insane. This is totally insane,

1256
01:28:33,239 --> 01:28:38,279
you know. And it took decades for people to adapt

1257
01:28:38,359 --> 01:28:41,960
to that, you know, And it really wasn't until people

1258
01:28:42,039 --> 01:28:44,760
born in the nineteen twenties and thirties were totally habituated

1259
01:28:44,800 --> 01:28:48,039
to that. But it took that long, you know. So

1260
01:28:48,199 --> 01:28:52,720
the degree to which this disrupted everything that everybody had

1261
01:28:52,760 --> 01:29:00,439
taken for granted, and you know, just created unmanageable conditions.

1262
01:29:01,960 --> 01:29:03,760
You know, I mean think about too, like trying to

1263
01:29:03,920 --> 01:29:07,760
manage economic imperatives. I'm not even talking about a planned economy.

1264
01:29:08,079 --> 01:29:10,359
I'm saying just being able to balance the proverbial like

1265
01:29:10,399 --> 01:29:15,119
a Ledger books, there's a factory that employs twenty thousand people.

1266
01:29:15,560 --> 01:29:18,079
I'm using a pencil and paper and an advocates to

1267
01:29:18,159 --> 01:29:21,439
try and figure out, like what our outlays are, like

1268
01:29:22,079 --> 01:29:25,239
what we need to produce to be profitable, like what

1269
01:29:25,399 --> 01:29:27,520
we need, how much we need to earn to like

1270
01:29:27,640 --> 01:29:32,640
stay afloat, like what debts we owe to who? At

1271
01:29:32,680 --> 01:29:34,880
some point that's going to collapse on itself and people

1272
01:29:34,880 --> 01:29:37,640
are gonna starve. And then happened over and over and

1273
01:29:37,720 --> 01:29:43,880
over again, and most punctuatedly, it happened in a great depression.

1274
01:29:45,239 --> 01:29:47,800
And it wasn't because of like bankers or whatever like

1275
01:29:47,920 --> 01:29:50,159
von Meesian's think. It was because of what I just said.

1276
01:29:50,760 --> 01:29:55,399
That could never happen now because it's been rubberized, because

1277
01:29:55,479 --> 01:29:58,520
data management. Now it's as simple as turning on a machine.

1278
01:29:59,159 --> 01:30:02,560
Now that's an incredibly corrupt people make half with that

1279
01:30:03,039 --> 01:30:06,520
wealth is wiped out owing to malfeasans in greed. But

1280
01:30:07,159 --> 01:30:09,159
there's not gonna be like the stock market is not

1281
01:30:09,239 --> 01:30:13,000
going to plummet five thousand points because of some like

1282
01:30:13,119 --> 01:30:16,560
air because of like some accounting error at scale, or

1283
01:30:16,640 --> 01:30:19,319
because of like a lack of situational awareness that has

1284
01:30:19,399 --> 01:30:23,399
like a catastrophic impact that could never happen again. Okay,

1285
01:30:24,920 --> 01:30:28,520
so when people talk about that, that's stupid. But this

1286
01:30:28,720 --> 01:30:33,680
was like an everyday reality really from like the close

1287
01:30:33,760 --> 01:30:37,279
of the eighteenth century until like like really until like

1288
01:30:37,279 --> 01:30:40,119
the nineteen seventies, you know what I mean. It's uh

1289
01:30:40,359 --> 01:30:42,880
so basically people were like costing on the precipice of

1290
01:30:42,960 --> 01:30:47,079
some kind of like disaster, you know. And that's why

1291
01:30:47,159 --> 01:30:50,680
people became communists, like the man in the street, and

1292
01:30:50,760 --> 01:30:52,880
that's why guys like Ernst Tollman, who's kind of the

1293
01:30:52,960 --> 01:30:58,720
consummate like like uh like aryan German like Burger type

1294
01:30:59,079 --> 01:31:01,800
Like that's why though those guys like fact like like

1295
01:31:01,960 --> 01:31:07,239
like factory floridais being communists like communist I theology and

1296
01:31:07,399 --> 01:31:10,840
it's it's foundation and like a Jewish revolutionary spirit or

1297
01:31:11,119 --> 01:31:16,520
like sectarian antipathy or like ethnosectarian hostility like yes, that

1298
01:31:16,720 --> 01:31:22,680
at at scale of at dialectical scale and process like, yes,

1299
01:31:22,800 --> 01:31:25,159
that is where it comes from. But where the rubber

1300
01:31:25,199 --> 01:31:27,119
meets to the road. What I just said is why

1301
01:31:27,840 --> 01:31:32,760
it became this. There's there's animating imperative that swept up

1302
01:31:32,800 --> 01:31:35,760
millions and millions of people. Like that's why you know,

1303
01:31:36,000 --> 01:31:39,399
now it's a bit different. There's other reasons why. I mean,

1304
01:31:39,560 --> 01:31:41,439
it would never become a mass movement again, you know,

1305
01:31:41,560 --> 01:31:45,840
even though when I say that like Marxist Leninism or

1306
01:31:46,039 --> 01:31:49,920
like it's it's dialectically altered in variant. When I say

1307
01:31:49,920 --> 01:31:52,359
that it's like enjoyed something of resurgence, I mean like

1308
01:31:52,399 --> 01:31:55,960
in terms of like fringe elements, okay, And there's like

1309
01:31:56,000 --> 01:31:59,319
a small, very small and absolute terms like vanguard of

1310
01:31:59,399 --> 01:32:01,800
those guys who are somewhat impressive and kind of had

1311
01:32:01,840 --> 01:32:05,319
their shit together and moving forward like this century. They

1312
01:32:05,359 --> 01:32:08,119
were probably able to carve out some semi sovereign space

1313
01:32:08,159 --> 01:32:10,680
as locally, but were small and scale. But that's what

1314
01:32:10,760 --> 01:32:12,960
I mean. I don't mean that like, oh, this is resurgent,

1315
01:32:13,039 --> 01:32:17,159
and there'd be like some sort of highly scaled variant

1316
01:32:17,199 --> 01:32:22,760
of this again but one a second, but hosbo, I'm

1317
01:32:22,760 --> 01:32:27,399
also like moving on a bit. You know, all these

1318
01:32:27,520 --> 01:32:34,720
things this basic a storicism. This is kind of what

1319
01:32:35,800 --> 01:32:39,039
this is kind of what separated Hoswoon from the schismatics,

1320
01:32:39,079 --> 01:32:42,520
like initially, okay, because there were always schismatics. I mean

1321
01:32:43,560 --> 01:32:47,319
the sixty eight ers were basically the ideological descendants of Trotsky.

1322
01:32:47,760 --> 01:32:49,600
Even if a lot of them were just kind of bandwagoning,

1323
01:32:49,680 --> 01:32:52,520
I didn't realize that's what they were, you know, at

1324
01:32:52,560 --> 01:32:59,479
the cadre level of of the leadership element, that's what

1325
01:32:59,600 --> 01:33:06,880
they were about, you know, And uh, this is important,

1326
01:33:07,239 --> 01:33:15,600
and you hosbom his later his later output especially, and

1327
01:33:17,039 --> 01:33:19,439
you know, after people are about forty or fifty, they

1328
01:33:19,479 --> 01:33:24,239
don't like really radically change their viewpoint. That's what I

1329
01:33:24,319 --> 01:33:28,319
mean in a moment in condext But hosbom Uh his

1330
01:33:28,479 --> 01:33:31,880
later output in like especially in the nineteen nineties, it

1331
01:33:32,000 --> 01:33:34,600
dealt a lot with what he perceived is like cultural decadence,

1332
01:33:35,439 --> 01:33:40,640
like the kind of corruption is social democracy, the intellectual

1333
01:33:40,720 --> 01:33:43,640
and moral poverty of the new left, you know, the

1334
01:33:43,680 --> 01:33:49,319
ability of capitalism as he perceived it to resist historical

1335
01:33:49,439 --> 01:33:55,000
processes and endoor beyond. In his estimation, it's what should

1336
01:33:55,039 --> 01:33:59,159
have been. It's kind of viable, it's sort of viable

1337
01:33:59,439 --> 01:34:03,720
life as a conceptual model, so people kind of said, like, oh,

1338
01:34:03,800 --> 01:34:06,039
haw's w again this second bittered old guy after the

1339
01:34:06,119 --> 01:34:08,119
Cold War it saying No, I don't. I don't believe

1340
01:34:08,159 --> 01:34:10,680
that he always thought this, but it would have been

1341
01:34:10,720 --> 01:34:13,600
pointless to kind of bandy that like during the Cold War,

1342
01:34:13,840 --> 01:34:16,239
there was just there just wouldn't have been a context

1343
01:34:16,279 --> 01:34:19,439
and it would have gone without saying. And also even

1344
01:34:20,560 --> 01:34:23,720
much as uh like the orthodox left, you know, the

1345
01:34:23,800 --> 01:34:27,520
pro Soviet left, much as they kind of despised the schismatics,

1346
01:34:28,079 --> 01:34:30,199
I mean they they were they were literally at war

1347
01:34:30,439 --> 01:34:35,039
with America and NATO, and it's a Jason elements. They weren't.

1348
01:34:35,119 --> 01:34:37,880
They weren't gonna pick like some sectarian fight with a

1349
01:34:37,880 --> 01:34:40,199
bunch of sixty eight ers who were like voting in

1350
01:34:40,359 --> 01:34:44,840
like the sweetest Green Party. When you know there's there's

1351
01:34:44,840 --> 01:34:46,680
a good possibility at some point there's gonna be a

1352
01:34:46,760 --> 01:34:49,000
nuclear war with their ops. They're not. That was just

1353
01:34:49,159 --> 01:34:54,279
was not even within their contemplation. But in uh, in

1354
01:34:54,319 --> 01:34:57,520
the early nineties, Hosbon dropped a book that's I think

1355
01:34:57,560 --> 01:34:59,039
this might have been as I should know this. I

1356
01:34:59,079 --> 01:35:01,680
think this was his last. He wrote essays something only,

1357
01:35:01,680 --> 01:35:04,359
but I think this is his last, Like like published book.

1358
01:35:05,920 --> 01:35:08,800
It was called the Age of Extremes, The Short Century,

1359
01:35:08,960 --> 01:35:15,359
The Short Century nineteen fourteen to nineteen ninety one identify

1360
01:35:15,359 --> 01:35:17,359
at the end of the Short Century as nineteen eighty nine,

1361
01:35:17,439 --> 01:35:19,760
Hobbs what nineteen ninety one with the formal dissolution of

1362
01:35:19,800 --> 01:35:23,319
the Soviet Union, So over clarity, that's what he meant.

1363
01:35:23,520 --> 01:35:29,239
But he kind of on popular culture a lot, you know,

1364
01:35:29,319 --> 01:35:32,600
and he said, look, he's like in the sixties, popular

1365
01:35:32,640 --> 01:35:36,279
culture totally changed. He was like before that. He's like

1366
01:35:36,359 --> 01:35:38,359
the kind of pop culture icons, whether they were talking

1367
01:35:38,399 --> 01:35:42,640
about like pet Boone, or they were talking about John Wayne,

1368
01:35:42,720 --> 01:35:47,079
or whether they were talking about somebody like even even

1369
01:35:47,119 --> 01:35:52,640
somebody like Steve McQueen or or some of these guys.

1370
01:35:53,479 --> 01:35:56,880
You know, they they might have represented kind of adalized

1371
01:35:56,960 --> 01:36:00,520
vision of Americana. But he's like just and he's and

1372
01:36:00,560 --> 01:36:03,279
those very deliberate and there's something very corporate about that.

1373
01:36:03,720 --> 01:36:06,119
But at the same time, these kinds of figures and

1374
01:36:06,199 --> 01:36:09,960
these motifs, they basically mirrored the way that like people

1375
01:36:10,000 --> 01:36:12,560
had always kind of thought, you know, like simple minds

1376
01:36:12,600 --> 01:36:16,600
that maybe to some people, you know, in the nineteen sixties,

1377
01:36:19,079 --> 01:36:22,760
the kind of like rock star identity which, don't get

1378
01:36:22,800 --> 01:36:26,279
me wrong, had always you know, uh, there is a

1379
01:36:26,319 --> 01:36:28,680
lot of like old rock and blues guys would always

1380
01:36:28,720 --> 01:36:31,359
talk about selling your soul to the devil because guys

1381
01:36:31,399 --> 01:36:33,680
in that life did die young and they ended up

1382
01:36:33,720 --> 01:36:36,439
and totally fucked up circumstances. But kind of like the

1383
01:36:36,600 --> 01:36:39,960
mass murdering of this to like Bougie's and like and lanes.

1384
01:36:40,800 --> 01:36:44,439
You know, he had tonified like Janis Joppelin, Brian Jones,

1385
01:36:44,520 --> 01:36:49,319
Bob Marley, you know, and all and all this kind

1386
01:36:49,359 --> 01:36:52,920
of hippie garbage. You know, He's like, Okay, these people

1387
01:36:53,000 --> 01:36:57,279
weren't just viewed as pop culture figures. Like people decided

1388
01:36:57,399 --> 01:36:59,960
these these people stood in for like literal cultural icon.

1389
01:37:00,640 --> 01:37:01,920
You know. Thus you have like the kind of like

1390
01:37:02,000 --> 01:37:04,720
stereotypical like boomer idiot or things like the Beatles are

1391
01:37:04,760 --> 01:37:07,800
like uttering like like sacred truths or something. You know,

1392
01:37:08,000 --> 01:37:13,960
like and this idea that being old is bad. You know,

1393
01:37:14,159 --> 01:37:16,960
life is horrible after you're like twenty eight or thirty.

1394
01:37:17,920 --> 01:37:23,520
You know, uh, there's something glorious about not getting beyond

1395
01:37:23,640 --> 01:37:27,319
that stage and like dying from partying. You know. Cosmon

1396
01:37:27,439 --> 01:37:29,239
Via was like, Okay, first of all, this is a

1397
01:37:29,279 --> 01:37:32,079
way of kind of like dumbing people down. And it's

1398
01:37:32,239 --> 01:37:35,159
it's a way of kind of like capitalism artificially sustaining

1399
01:37:35,199 --> 01:37:38,600
itself by selling this kind of like lifestyle image that's

1400
01:37:38,640 --> 01:37:42,119
pretending to be radical or pretending to be like at

1401
01:37:42,239 --> 01:37:45,399
odds of what came before, and it is but not

1402
01:37:45,760 --> 01:37:49,079
in you know, the post seventeen eighty nine sense, you know.

1403
01:37:49,119 --> 01:37:51,560
And he said that like this basically, this kind of

1404
01:37:51,600 --> 01:37:55,600
passive nihilism turns any turns everybody you know basically into

1405
01:37:55,640 --> 01:38:00,039
sort of like a comatose like consumer, you know, And

1406
01:38:00,800 --> 01:38:04,000
it's kind of contempt for older people. He's like, you know,

1407
01:38:04,880 --> 01:38:07,359
if you're gonna say that like everything is shit basically

1408
01:38:07,399 --> 01:38:10,319
after not ruled by your hormones, and I don't. I

1409
01:38:10,359 --> 01:38:12,359
don't have content for young people, and I don't think

1410
01:38:12,439 --> 01:38:15,079
Osmon did either. But he's saying this kind of caricature

1411
01:38:15,079 --> 01:38:18,800
a youth that was presented, you know, by like capitalist media.

1412
01:38:19,680 --> 01:38:22,840
In his estimation, you know, he's like, basically you're saying

1413
01:38:22,960 --> 01:38:26,560
that anyone who has lived long enough, they're gonna develop

1414
01:38:26,800 --> 01:38:30,960
like an evolved in view of what of the system

1415
01:38:31,000 --> 01:38:33,920
we live under and scale they're bad or they're like

1416
01:38:34,000 --> 01:38:36,039
the police, or they're trying to tell you to do

1417
01:38:36,239 --> 01:38:38,800
things you don't want to do. So it's kind of

1418
01:38:38,840 --> 01:38:42,880
just like deliberate dumbing down under auspices of rebellion. And

1419
01:38:43,039 --> 01:38:46,359
that's insightful because that really is true. And this kind

1420
01:38:46,399 --> 01:38:50,000
of weird preaching, you know, he's like rocketbelly guys like

1421
01:38:50,159 --> 01:38:59,239
Eddie Cochrane, like Elvis, like Buddy Holly, like uh you know,

1422
01:38:59,359 --> 01:39:03,039
like like like like Richie Valens. These guys weren't trying

1423
01:39:03,039 --> 01:39:05,680
to sell people on some lifestyle. You know. They were

1424
01:39:05,760 --> 01:39:08,479
like poor. They were poor redneck guys in balance case

1425
01:39:08,520 --> 01:39:11,840
you know, you're poor, like East La Spanish guys, you know,

1426
01:39:12,119 --> 01:39:14,920
and there was a real like energy there. They had

1427
01:39:15,039 --> 01:39:17,319
kind of a dark side that was exemplified by people

1428
01:39:17,399 --> 01:39:20,880
like stark Weather. I mean unfortunately, but these guys were

1429
01:39:20,920 --> 01:39:24,119
never going out like preaching some weird sociology of people

1430
01:39:24,319 --> 01:39:27,159
that wouldn't even occurred to them because that's not what

1431
01:39:27,359 --> 01:39:30,680
musicians do. Like the fact that this became part of

1432
01:39:30,720 --> 01:39:36,319
the package in Hobswam's view, that was totally ideological. You know,

1433
01:39:36,479 --> 01:39:38,800
that was not some accident, that wasn't just people nitting

1434
01:39:38,840 --> 01:39:43,239
with the zeitgeist. It wasn't just some kind of weird

1435
01:39:43,439 --> 01:39:46,279
feedback loop owing to sort of like the integration and

1436
01:39:46,399 --> 01:39:50,840
narratives because of TV. No, this was very deliberate, you know,

1437
01:39:51,279 --> 01:39:57,199
and so in his view, in his view like basically

1438
01:39:57,279 --> 01:40:00,680
American pop culture from about nineteen sixty four sixty five

1439
01:40:01,279 --> 01:40:03,840
to like the then president, which was like nineteen ninety

1440
01:40:03,880 --> 01:40:06,159
three when he wrote this, he's like, this is basically

1441
01:40:06,239 --> 01:40:10,159
capitalist propaganda, you know. And you obviously in our view

1442
01:40:10,279 --> 01:40:13,199
it's social engineering at hobbs I baby pictually care about

1443
01:40:13,199 --> 01:40:16,720
that on its own terms. But again he opposed that

1444
01:40:16,840 --> 01:40:19,079
stuff because he's like, this is basically trying to get

1445
01:40:19,119 --> 01:40:22,640
you drunk on sex or taking drugs or like cloud chasing,

1446
01:40:23,720 --> 01:40:26,159
so that you basically never mature in like a rational

1447
01:40:26,239 --> 01:40:29,600
adult and you never contemplate like why you're in the

1448
01:40:29,640 --> 01:40:34,039
condition you're in, and you never contemplate like why there's

1449
01:40:34,119 --> 01:40:38,239
not like any economic justice in his view, you know.

1450
01:40:38,279 --> 01:40:40,439
And again it's these conclusions really have nothing to do

1451
01:40:40,600 --> 01:40:44,119
with our perspective. But the process he describes and what

1452
01:40:44,760 --> 01:40:51,239
these what this sort of like pop cultural uh product represents,

1453
01:40:51,560 --> 01:40:53,720
like he is right about that or he wasn't right

1454
01:40:53,760 --> 01:40:56,880
about that, you know, and he and he said this

1455
01:40:57,000 --> 01:41:02,199
stuff had like real he said, he said that the

1456
01:41:02,279 --> 01:41:05,840
true like he said that was truly different about this,

1457
01:41:06,720 --> 01:41:10,039
this sort of this sort of propagandas pop culture is threefold.

1458
01:41:11,039 --> 01:41:14,159
You know, he's like, first, he's like, youth was always seen,

1459
01:41:14,399 --> 01:41:16,760
even even in cultures that like revered youth are you're

1460
01:41:16,760 --> 01:41:19,319
talking about like classical Greece or the Third Reich or

1461
01:41:19,319 --> 01:41:22,000
even like going Soviet Union, it was still views like

1462
01:41:22,039 --> 01:41:25,760
a preparatory stage for adulthood in some sense. As you know,

1463
01:41:26,239 --> 01:41:28,760
youth is important. The youth are vigorous. We need them

1464
01:41:28,880 --> 01:41:31,560
to protect us, to fight our wars, to you know,

1465
01:41:31,720 --> 01:41:35,000
develop passionate ideas that they can later build upon and innovate.

1466
01:41:35,800 --> 01:41:39,720
But you know, this is important because it's a critical

1467
01:41:39,800 --> 01:41:43,479
stage for it's the final phase of full human development.

1468
01:41:44,319 --> 01:41:46,760
That that all was like done away with. It's like, no,

1469
01:41:47,000 --> 01:41:49,560
youth is some end in itself being old as shit,

1470
01:41:50,520 --> 01:41:53,640
you know, being a young being a teenager or a

1471
01:41:53,760 --> 01:41:57,920
young person, that is the zenith of life, and your

1472
01:41:58,000 --> 01:42:00,239
life is miserable after that. So you've got to try

1473
01:42:00,319 --> 01:42:02,760
and hang on to those aspects as much as you can,

1474
01:42:03,319 --> 01:42:06,399
whether it's through taking drugs or like you know, including hormones,

1475
01:42:06,800 --> 01:42:08,960
whether it's like refusing to get married so you can

1476
01:42:09,119 --> 01:42:11,720
like have sex a lot of girls. Whether it's you know,

1477
01:42:12,359 --> 01:42:17,399
refusing to behave in a responsible way, whether it's you know,

1478
01:42:17,479 --> 01:42:21,079
refusing to take on a real political perspective because that's like, oh,

1479
01:42:21,199 --> 01:42:24,920
that's like you know, that's that square stuff. This all

1480
01:42:25,319 --> 01:42:27,760
is very deliberate, and this is very This is an

1481
01:42:27,800 --> 01:42:31,600
odds basy with every human culture that ever existed. Secondly,

1482
01:42:33,439 --> 01:42:36,399
it became dominant in market economy. It's like every single

1483
01:42:36,479 --> 01:42:38,720
one of them. It's not just like in America or

1484
01:42:38,800 --> 01:42:42,159
in the UK there's this weird kind of youth obsessed

1485
01:42:42,239 --> 01:42:45,119
tendency owing to kind of the population boom at World

1486
01:42:45,119 --> 01:42:49,399
War two. No, this happened like everywhere that America like

1487
01:42:50,079 --> 01:42:52,439
was able to like plan its footprint. You know, they're

1488
01:42:52,439 --> 01:42:54,720
talking about Japan with you know India, whether you're talking

1489
01:42:54,760 --> 01:42:58,840
about you know, France, whether you're talking about you know

1490
01:42:59,560 --> 01:43:02,520
the then you know East Block formerly his Block that

1491
01:43:02,600 --> 01:43:04,800
was like opening up. But you're talking about Finland where

1492
01:43:04,800 --> 01:43:08,199
they talk about you know, Latin America. That they can't

1493
01:43:08,319 --> 01:43:15,560
just be like some spontaneous homogenization. Okay, like uh, pop

1494
01:43:15,640 --> 01:43:18,760
college doesn't just developed this kind of like homogeneous ideological

1495
01:43:18,800 --> 01:43:23,079
imperative just by complete accidents, especially like pre internet that

1496
01:43:23,199 --> 01:43:29,119
was that was laughable. And the third thing you identified

1497
01:43:29,479 --> 01:43:32,000
was that it became truly international in a way that

1498
01:43:32,159 --> 01:43:34,479
didn't really make sense. You know. He's like if you

1499
01:43:34,560 --> 01:43:37,600
take stuff like the Beatles, or if you take stuff uh,

1500
01:43:38,279 --> 01:43:40,920
you know, like some of these movies that like pop

1501
01:43:41,000 --> 01:43:44,159
so much on the production code got done away with,

1502
01:43:44,319 --> 01:43:46,119
like the graduate. A lot of times the stuff wasn't

1503
01:43:46,119 --> 01:43:49,119
even translated, like people don't even understand like what they

1504
01:43:49,159 --> 01:43:51,920
were hearing because it was you know, and it wasn't.

1505
01:43:52,000 --> 01:43:54,479
It's not there was some program where you could upload

1506
01:43:54,560 --> 01:43:59,960
subtitles to release a movie in India or China. But nevertheless,

1507
01:44:00,159 --> 01:44:04,199
there was this constant stream of mostly radio then but

1508
01:44:04,279 --> 01:44:08,840
also TV and like the richer developing world that said

1509
01:44:08,920 --> 01:44:11,279
like this is cool, this is how you should be.

1510
01:44:12,439 --> 01:44:15,079
So people kind of like ate up the visual aspect

1511
01:44:15,560 --> 01:44:20,399
and you know kind of in congress with you know,

1512
01:44:20,600 --> 01:44:24,760
the the overly ideological kind of like radio media stuff.

1513
01:44:24,760 --> 01:44:27,800
There's all model in radio for Europe of course. You know,

1514
01:44:28,000 --> 01:44:33,319
it's like this became this international kind of it became

1515
01:44:33,359 --> 01:44:41,319
this uniform, ideologically motivated international subculture without even being linguistically diverse,

1516
01:44:41,920 --> 01:44:48,239
you know, and it was, uh, it's not like it's

1517
01:44:48,279 --> 01:44:50,680
not like this was happening at gunpoint, you know, like

1518
01:44:50,760 --> 01:44:54,600
it's not like, uh, it's not like American soldiers were

1519
01:44:54,640 --> 01:44:57,600
going into like Angola and like blowing away and a

1520
01:44:57,680 --> 01:45:00,479
guy who ran like the local radio state and saying,

1521
01:45:00,479 --> 01:45:03,279
you're gonna listen to this, You're gonna play this. You know,

1522
01:45:03,520 --> 01:45:07,439
it ability to like insinuate itself kind of along with

1523
01:45:07,880 --> 01:45:10,840
you know, the the illusion of wealth. He's like, that's

1524
01:45:10,960 --> 01:45:17,319
rare in terms of trying to insinuate a social sensibility

1525
01:45:18,079 --> 01:45:20,279
within people or try to get them to develop sort

1526
01:45:20,279 --> 01:45:23,840
of like a covetist sense of self and how they

1527
01:45:23,920 --> 01:45:26,159
want their life to be. You know. He's like, that's

1528
01:45:26,199 --> 01:45:28,960
kind of the strength of capitalism. Capitalism is really, really,

1529
01:45:29,079 --> 01:45:32,119
really good. And again I don't use terms of capitalism

1530
01:45:32,199 --> 01:45:35,600
to describe what he's describing, but we're talking about Hobsbaum,

1531
01:45:35,760 --> 01:45:39,199
so I'm using his vernacular. In his view, he said,

1532
01:45:39,760 --> 01:45:43,399
other ideologies, whether you're talking about state socialism, you know,

1533
01:45:43,439 --> 01:45:46,199
whether you're talking about some kind of a you know,

1534
01:45:46,319 --> 01:45:48,560
some kind of anti modernist but at the same time,

1535
01:45:48,680 --> 01:45:54,039
like futurist fascism, nothing is as effective as this and

1536
01:45:54,159 --> 01:45:59,239
like insinuating itself globally now is a buddle of that. Obviously,

1537
01:45:59,319 --> 01:46:01,000
it's like, well, you know, if you're dealing with like

1538
01:46:01,199 --> 01:46:04,359
poor mentioned material, or you know, if the rest of

1539
01:46:04,399 --> 01:46:06,760
the world's laying in ruins and all that exists is

1540
01:46:06,800 --> 01:46:10,079
America in the Soviet Union as producers of you know,

1541
01:46:10,279 --> 01:46:14,600
mass culture, you're gonna have perverse outcomes. Yeah, that's true,

1542
01:46:15,159 --> 01:46:17,479
but that's not really what he's talking about. He's saying, like,

1543
01:46:17,560 --> 01:46:21,520
in absolute terms, you wouldn't think that this stuff would

1544
01:46:21,560 --> 01:46:23,560
have like gone what we consider it by the face

1545
01:46:23,680 --> 01:46:27,279
terms like viral, but he did. And in Hobswong's view,

1546
01:46:27,600 --> 01:46:31,680
that's what keeps capitalism alive because it's not like it's

1547
01:46:31,720 --> 01:46:34,199
not like just like great outcomes from people like yeah,

1548
01:46:34,239 --> 01:46:39,239
if you're in America, you're basically rubberized. If you're like

1549
01:46:40,079 --> 01:46:43,520
if you're rich comparatively you're middle class or amazing middle class,

1550
01:46:43,880 --> 01:46:47,600
you're basically rubberized against like true catastrophes. Now, there are

1551
01:46:47,640 --> 01:46:49,560
people in America who really struggle, and they are not

1552
01:46:49,920 --> 01:46:53,000
but they're not the majority. Hobswam is talking more in

1553
01:46:53,119 --> 01:46:56,840
terms of like planetary scale. Most people in the world.

1554
01:46:56,920 --> 01:47:00,199
They're not really there's anything to offer you for I'm

1555
01:47:00,279 --> 01:47:02,880
like what he called the capitalist system. I mean, yeah,

1556
01:47:03,119 --> 01:47:08,079
you can. You know, shortages as you may have known

1557
01:47:08,119 --> 01:47:11,760
in your lifetime have been largely mitigated. But that probably

1558
01:47:11,760 --> 01:47:14,760
would happen in any way. That doesn't explain like why

1559
01:47:15,279 --> 01:47:18,520
in like in brass Tacks terms, like white people in Africa,

1560
01:47:18,560 --> 01:47:21,760
white people in Latin America, white people in Asia have

1561
01:47:21,960 --> 01:47:25,399
just like internalized this perspective. It doesn't explain why some

1562
01:47:25,680 --> 01:47:29,640
like Jackass in Liberia like decided in nineteen ninety fives

1563
01:47:29,640 --> 01:47:32,000
he wants to be a gangster rapper like that. That

1564
01:47:32,079 --> 01:47:33,880
doesn't make any sense in terms of kind of most

1565
01:47:33,920 --> 01:47:37,199
precedented sociology. I think it makes a lot of sense

1566
01:47:38,800 --> 01:47:43,039
according to certain criteria that we're not present before that

1567
01:47:43,119 --> 01:47:45,760
are a bit outside the scope. But that's kind of

1568
01:47:45,760 --> 01:47:50,640
hobs On's point, okay. And there were not many true

1569
01:47:50,720 --> 01:47:54,079
sociologists on the left. There was Seawright. Mills wasn't really

1570
01:47:54,119 --> 01:47:57,239
a leftist. I mean he he was viewed as like

1571
01:47:57,279 --> 01:47:59,920
a progressive by like by you know, by like eyes

1572
01:48:00,039 --> 01:48:05,520
now we are standards, but he was an he was

1573
01:48:05,560 --> 01:48:07,840
more kind of like an economic sociologist who was like

1574
01:48:08,199 --> 01:48:13,399
hostled uh, like what was consideredly a cabalist perspective. He

1575
01:48:13,640 --> 01:48:17,720
but Hoswaon was a genuine you know again it's I

1576
01:48:18,720 --> 01:48:23,199
this is not an absolute signifier that in Capsulate twenty was.

1577
01:48:23,279 --> 01:48:26,239
But he was like a Stalinist of its height, and

1578
01:48:26,479 --> 01:48:29,119
very few of those guys were like real sociologists. He

1579
01:48:29,359 --> 01:48:31,960
was Christopher Lash, ironically hime in a lot of the

1580
01:48:32,039 --> 01:48:37,239
conclusions hoswa did, and his final book it was called

1581
01:48:37,399 --> 01:48:41,079
progress That true only heaven It' dropped in like nineteen

1582
01:48:41,159 --> 01:48:45,159
ninety four, so over last died now. Of course, Lash

1583
01:48:45,239 --> 01:48:47,520
had been some kind of peculiar freto Marxist in his

1584
01:48:47,640 --> 01:48:49,840
younger days, like the kind of guy who'd been on

1585
01:48:50,359 --> 01:48:53,960
a gism drawn mark. He'd been very much influenced by

1586
01:48:53,960 --> 01:48:59,520
marcusa in that school, I thought. And then Lash gradually

1587
01:48:59,640 --> 01:49:02,159
became like one more kind of conservative in his thought,

1588
01:49:02,359 --> 01:49:08,199
like literally conservative. So I'm not sure if you really count.

1589
01:49:08,279 --> 01:49:13,439
So Hoswem kind of stands not quite alone, but it's

1590
01:49:13,479 --> 01:49:18,760
a it was a very small fraternity of revolutionary Marxist

1591
01:49:18,800 --> 01:49:23,239
Leninists who who had, you know, like a sociologist that

1592
01:49:24,079 --> 01:49:27,800
that was both methodologically as well as intellectually rigorous in

1593
01:49:28,079 --> 01:49:36,159
terms of you know, in terms of output. So that's

1594
01:49:36,159 --> 01:49:39,720
another reason why UH people should take him seriously if

1595
01:49:39,760 --> 01:49:43,920
I haven't convinced the subs and other people who like

1596
01:49:44,000 --> 01:49:48,760
what we do. Hosbon did say, though, with a big

1597
01:49:48,880 --> 01:49:54,600
shortcoming of of capitalism or the capitalist perspective is he

1598
01:49:54,720 --> 01:49:58,520
says that owing to this inherently conservative tendency. Now again

1599
01:49:58,560 --> 01:50:01,479
we're talking about conservatism and post seventeen eighty nine cents.

1600
01:50:01,520 --> 01:50:04,399
We're not talking about belief and tradition. We're not talking

1601
01:50:04,439 --> 01:50:08,279
about you know, reverence for for for customs. We're not

1602
01:50:08,359 --> 01:50:11,760
talking about people want to preserve old ways or preserve Harriot.

1603
01:50:11,760 --> 01:50:14,560
We're not talking that at all. We're talking about ideological conservatism,

1604
01:50:15,319 --> 01:50:19,399
which again is U is a product of enlightenment liberalism

1605
01:50:19,439 --> 01:50:22,239
one hundred percent. Hosom says that the thing that these

1606
01:50:22,520 --> 01:50:25,479
that these capitalists ideologues are really, really, really bad at

1607
01:50:26,439 --> 01:50:29,000
is predicting the future, not putting the future like a

1608
01:50:29,079 --> 01:50:32,359
gypsy of the crystal ball, but kind of diagnosing the

1609
01:50:32,439 --> 01:50:37,479
trajectory of politics and UH an economic phenomenon. You know,

1610
01:50:37,560 --> 01:50:39,560
That's why he said that, Like he said that, like

1611
01:50:39,640 --> 01:50:43,119
people like Fukiyama are laughable, you know what they're like

1612
01:50:43,359 --> 01:50:46,960
theories of everything, like, oh, you know they'll be they'll

1613
01:50:47,000 --> 01:50:51,000
be no more armed conflict because you know, they'll be prosperity.

1614
01:50:51,199 --> 01:50:54,960
And you know, people will will naturally like reject religion

1615
01:50:55,119 --> 01:50:58,000
because they'll they'll have all these like hedonistic outlets that

1616
01:50:58,439 --> 01:51:01,680
no longer force them to sublimate. Like Hobson's like, that's ridiculous,

1617
01:51:01,720 --> 01:51:04,680
that's nonsense, you know, and he's like, basically, nobody has

1618
01:51:04,720 --> 01:51:07,800
a worst track record speaking in the nineteen nineties. He's like,

1619
01:51:07,920 --> 01:51:10,039
nobody had the worst Nobody has the worst track record

1620
01:51:10,079 --> 01:51:13,359
of the preceding forty years. So basically probably a post

1621
01:51:13,399 --> 01:51:16,039
war era in like the nineties than like, you know,

1622
01:51:16,159 --> 01:51:21,520
the capitalists. You know, He's like, they're spectacularly bad at

1623
01:51:21,600 --> 01:51:24,239
predicting what's going to happen, and that's also why they

1624
01:51:24,279 --> 01:51:27,560
got utterly blindsided by like the implosion of the Soviet Union.

1625
01:51:28,479 --> 01:51:35,039
You know. Hobbs arm reserve a particular contempt for Calvin Coolidge.

1626
01:51:35,760 --> 01:51:37,880
He did. Coolie is kind of like a Reagan figure,

1627
01:51:38,159 --> 01:51:43,520
which isn't I mean, Reagan himself like lionized the Coolidge,

1628
01:51:43,560 --> 01:51:48,359
but I think Reagan is more like Eisenhower frankly, but interestingly,

1629
01:51:48,479 --> 01:51:51,000
George Kennan had a similar contempt for Reagan. He thought

1630
01:51:51,039 --> 01:51:53,560
he was an idiots. I mean, I got love for

1631
01:51:54,680 --> 01:51:56,520
Kennan old day, but I think he had some blind

1632
01:51:56,560 --> 01:52:01,520
spots in his own right. But what what Osbom said

1633
01:52:01,640 --> 01:52:06,199
in one of his later books Coolidge in nineteen twenty eight,

1634
01:52:07,359 --> 01:52:09,359
I think it was his is like a holiday message.

1635
01:52:09,800 --> 01:52:11,800
You know, there's nothing even a great depression. They had

1636
01:52:11,880 --> 01:52:15,760
not the kind of terrors in ainety twenty nine, obviously

1637
01:52:15,800 --> 01:52:20,479
had not sit in yet, but there was there was,

1638
01:52:20,560 --> 01:52:24,199
there was an ominous air about things. So Coolidge's message,

1639
01:52:24,319 --> 01:52:26,880
like in Holiday Season ninety twenty eight was quote, the

1640
01:52:26,960 --> 01:52:30,159
country can regard the present with satisfaction and anticipate the

1641
01:52:30,239 --> 01:52:35,399
future with optimism. That's fucking meaningless. That's like saying like

1642
01:52:37,560 --> 01:52:41,079
things are great because my McDonald's lunch today, you know,

1643
01:52:41,239 --> 01:52:46,800
cheeseburgers taste good and it's Friday, and you know, I

1644
01:52:47,000 --> 01:52:51,159
like pussy like. It's I think a crancer version of

1645
01:52:51,199 --> 01:52:56,359
what Coolidge dropped. Okay, I mean that's that's like almost Clintonian,

1646
01:52:56,520 --> 01:53:06,079
and it's superficial, supervisionally moronic, you know, uh essence. You know,

1647
01:53:08,760 --> 01:53:14,760
so like That's why Hobswom says that like capitalism, it's

1648
01:53:14,880 --> 01:53:19,840
got a permanent alibi for its failures because it creates

1649
01:53:19,880 --> 01:53:23,640
this climate. It basically just this dumb down climate of

1650
01:53:23,840 --> 01:53:28,680
cloud chasers and people thirsty and desperate for youth and

1651
01:53:28,880 --> 01:53:32,760
the kind of pleasures that supposedly attend youth. And they're

1652
01:53:32,840 --> 01:53:35,880
told that the experts. And you're always supposed to trust experts,

1653
01:53:35,960 --> 01:53:38,600
you know, like no Ball's Wall says, we trust doctors.

1654
01:53:39,119 --> 01:53:41,800
You're always supposed to trust the experts, whether they're an economists,

1655
01:53:41,840 --> 01:53:45,479
whether they're you know, some Pentagon whiz kid. I'm beating

1656
01:53:45,520 --> 01:53:49,119
myself with that phraseology, I realize, or whether they're you know,

1657
01:53:49,199 --> 01:53:53,720
some medical doctor like doctor Fauci. And the experts always say,

1658
01:53:54,439 --> 01:53:57,000
you know something in the same thing as what Coolidge said,

1659
01:53:57,520 --> 01:54:00,640
there's just nothing but progress ahead. There's nothing press spirity head.

1660
01:54:01,119 --> 01:54:05,880
So oh, when there's natural when there's natural hiccups so

1661
01:54:06,079 --> 01:54:10,239
to speak, you know, in markets, or when there's problems,

1662
01:54:11,479 --> 01:54:15,600
or when a combination of malfeasance and badly coded inputs

1663
01:54:15,680 --> 01:54:17,479
lead to something like a two thousand and eight crisis

1664
01:54:17,880 --> 01:54:20,319
where billions of dollars are wiped out, Like oh, the

1665
01:54:20,439 --> 01:54:23,960
alibi the capitalists, and who in a hoplit view is like, oh,

1666
01:54:24,039 --> 01:54:26,600
this was an unforeseen crisis, almost like a terrorist attack,

1667
01:54:27,000 --> 01:54:28,920
you know, but darn it, like we got the gumption

1668
01:54:29,119 --> 01:54:32,079
to get through it. And these things just can't be predicted.

1669
01:54:32,399 --> 01:54:34,359
You know. It's a hosba on this nonsense. This is

1670
01:54:34,439 --> 01:54:39,600
absolutely foreseeable, you know, Like, granted, there's always something of

1671
01:54:39,840 --> 01:54:45,720
a there's always something of a mystics belief in augury

1672
01:54:46,279 --> 01:54:49,359
to Marxist Lenin is, it's like dressed up as like, oh, no,

1673
01:54:49,520 --> 01:54:53,720
we're just diagnosing, you know, through a scientific method, the

1674
01:54:53,760 --> 01:54:57,880
world historical process. But they do they are right when

1675
01:54:57,920 --> 01:55:00,880
they say, like, no, history does not peat itself. That's

1676
01:55:00,920 --> 01:55:05,399
something morons say. But there are patterns too advance, particularly

1677
01:55:05,520 --> 01:55:08,079
crises of like an economic or military nature, and this

1678
01:55:08,239 --> 01:55:11,039
idea like we're just being blindsided because this this can't

1679
01:55:11,039 --> 01:55:14,279
be predicted, you know. Like that he's right about that,

1680
01:55:14,439 --> 01:55:17,640
and that that is the ongoing alibi of capitalism. Again,

1681
01:55:17,680 --> 01:55:23,960
this is his phraseology he calls capitalism. I think I'm

1682
01:55:23,960 --> 01:55:25,159
want to take part three in it's some of a

1683
01:55:25,199 --> 01:55:27,319
different direction, and I think we're coming up in the hour,

1684
01:55:27,520 --> 01:55:31,319
so I'm gonna cease if that's okay, because if I,

1685
01:55:31,399 --> 01:55:34,439
if I start in on what I want to start

1686
01:55:34,479 --> 01:55:37,119
in on it, we're just gonna have to abrogate it.

1687
01:55:37,199 --> 01:55:38,000
And I don't want to do that.

1688
01:55:39,279 --> 01:55:41,720
Speaker 1: No problem at all, No problem at all. And getting

1689
01:55:41,720 --> 01:55:44,880
ready for a trip and everything. So yeah, yeah, you

1690
01:55:44,920 --> 01:55:48,039
don't want to don't want to keep you here forever. Yeah,

1691
01:55:48,119 --> 01:55:49,359
two plugs, we'll get out of here.

1692
01:55:50,079 --> 01:55:52,159
Speaker 2: Yeah. No, my my, my good buddy. I don't want

1693
01:55:52,159 --> 01:55:54,239
to name check him because he's a very private person.

1694
01:55:54,399 --> 01:55:57,680
But like my homie and my erstwhile, like tech Frog,

1695
01:55:57,920 --> 01:56:00,920
who maintains my website, it's back up and running time

1696
01:56:00,960 --> 01:56:04,039
at seven seven seven dot com number seven h seven

1697
01:56:04,079 --> 01:56:06,800
seven seven dot com. It's up to date, it's current.

1698
01:56:07,399 --> 01:56:09,600
You can find the archives of everything I do, and

1699
01:56:09,760 --> 01:56:12,800
like the alerts automatically kick on, Like when this gets uploaded,

1700
01:56:12,840 --> 01:56:16,279
it'll automatically pop up. So it's current. I know it

1701
01:56:16,399 --> 01:56:19,640
was down for a few days. I'm gonna retool some stuff,

1702
01:56:19,880 --> 01:56:22,000
or rather my guy is gonna retool it. I've no

1703
01:56:22,039 --> 01:56:23,479
idea how to do that, but there's some things I

1704
01:56:23,560 --> 01:56:25,960
want to change. I'm not gonna I can't do that

1705
01:56:26,079 --> 01:56:28,479
until I get back from this trip. I'm going to

1706
01:56:28,600 --> 01:56:32,840
Portland tomorrow tomorrow being Halloween, a happy Halloween. I'll be

1707
01:56:33,000 --> 01:56:36,479
back on November seventh. I'm gonna need a few days

1708
01:56:36,479 --> 01:56:39,239
to recover, so realistically, it's probably gonna be like November

1709
01:56:39,319 --> 01:56:42,359
tenth before, like I'm I'll be, I'll be streaming and

1710
01:56:42,359 --> 01:56:45,920
stuff from the road. But I this stuff's not gonna

1711
01:56:45,920 --> 01:56:49,439
get done other than that, so there's good. It's gonna

1712
01:56:49,439 --> 01:56:51,840
be about three weeks before a new pot of as

1713
01:56:51,840 --> 01:56:55,920
ode is is is uploaded. But speaking of the pod,

1714
01:56:56,199 --> 01:56:59,119
you can and I'm gonna retool the website around mid

1715
01:56:59,239 --> 01:57:02,279
month of so they'll it'll be a lot easier to

1716
01:57:02,399 --> 01:57:04,840
use and navigate. They'll be I want that to be

1717
01:57:04,920 --> 01:57:08,399
like an archival library where everybody can find everything for free,

1718
01:57:08,560 --> 01:57:12,960
of course, and that's that. But you can find the

1719
01:57:13,039 --> 01:57:16,640
pod at real Thomas seven seven seven at subsec dot com.

1720
01:57:16,920 --> 01:57:19,960
It's the mind Phaser podcast. We've also got a pretty

1721
01:57:20,000 --> 01:57:24,159
active forum. There's also like there's a combination like short

1722
01:57:24,199 --> 01:57:27,760
and medium forum stuff, and that's the best way to

1723
01:57:27,840 --> 01:57:30,319
keep up with me, Like hit me up there or

1724
01:57:30,439 --> 01:57:33,479
hit me up on t Gram. I got a t

1725
01:57:33,640 --> 01:57:39,279
gram channel. I don't fuck with dms on Twitter and stuff.

1726
01:57:39,319 --> 01:57:42,000
I had too many bad experiences and I I cannot

1727
01:57:42,079 --> 01:57:45,239
keep up with like capitals and DM systems. But I'm

1728
01:57:45,279 --> 01:57:48,560
on social media at Capital r e a l underscore

1729
01:57:49,920 --> 01:57:52,880
number seven him as seven seven seven on Instagram, on

1730
01:57:53,000 --> 01:57:55,640
t Gram, I got a merse shop and yeah, man,

1731
01:57:55,640 --> 01:57:57,720
if you plug like the merse shop and the description,

1732
01:57:57,840 --> 01:57:59,560
that would be tremendous. I'd appreciate it.

1733
01:57:59,640 --> 01:58:03,920
Speaker 1: Bringlind absolutely, it's all set up and just copy and

1734
01:58:03,960 --> 01:58:08,960
paste it over safe travels man. Thank you. Yeah, an Ayboddy,

1735
01:58:11,439 --> 01:58:14,119
I want to welcome everyone back to the Pekanana Show.

1736
01:58:15,039 --> 01:58:18,479
Thomas seven seven seven is back end. Do you think

1737
01:58:18,560 --> 01:58:20,800
this will be the last Hobbs Bomb episode or do

1738
01:58:20,840 --> 01:58:21,880
you think there's another one in.

1739
01:58:21,960 --> 01:58:25,000
Speaker 2: This I mean, it's up to you because it's I mean,

1740
01:58:25,039 --> 01:58:27,119
it's your platform and we can go as long as

1741
01:58:27,159 --> 01:58:29,479
you want on it. I think that I think three

1742
01:58:29,560 --> 01:58:36,000
part series are are a good it's sort of I

1743
01:58:36,039 --> 01:58:38,840
think it's a good model to this kind of content.

1744
01:58:39,840 --> 01:58:42,199
But I'll go as long as you want on whatever topic.

1745
01:58:44,199 --> 01:58:47,159
I I was basically going to conclude what I have

1746
01:58:47,199 --> 01:58:49,600
to say on the subject today, but we.

1747
01:58:50,119 --> 01:58:51,960
Speaker 1: Let's do it that way and then it gives us

1748
01:58:52,000 --> 01:58:53,079
a chance to start something new.

1749
01:58:53,880 --> 01:58:59,359
Speaker 2: Yeah, indeed, yeah, no before if that's informant, why I

1750
01:58:59,359 --> 01:59:01,560
don't if you want were today? So I started repeating

1751
01:59:01,600 --> 01:59:07,000
myself for whatever, please advise me of that. And we're

1752
01:59:07,000 --> 01:59:10,159
hopping around it. But in terms of the timeline, and

1753
01:59:10,439 --> 01:59:12,720
but I think people have been okay with following it.

1754
01:59:15,760 --> 01:59:20,479
The what's important to me, especially in terms of at

1755
01:59:20,560 --> 01:59:24,159
least what I the kind of real value I find

1756
01:59:24,199 --> 01:59:28,319
in Hobbsball. I mean, obviously it's his twentieth century historiography,

1757
01:59:28,760 --> 01:59:31,680
but especially World War One because it's so ill understood

1758
01:59:32,560 --> 01:59:36,680
and it's such a critical event, you know, Like I

1759
01:59:37,479 --> 01:59:41,079
this is something of a tangent like the other week.

1760
01:59:41,399 --> 01:59:43,479
I'm not gonna name names because I don't have people

1761
01:59:43,520 --> 01:59:45,800
to think I'm being mean or I'm not even trying

1762
01:59:45,840 --> 01:59:48,920
to like suggest something humitive. But I've done this panel

1763
01:59:48,960 --> 01:59:52,680
with if you guys, and I was talking about how people,

1764
01:59:52,880 --> 01:59:56,840
especially in America, but also basically like across anglophone countries

1765
01:59:57,000 --> 02:00:00,239
and like their academic culture and stuff, they have this

1766
02:00:00,359 --> 02:00:04,960
idea they reject historicism of the continental type, but they

1767
02:00:05,039 --> 02:00:08,119
fall back in this kind of like midwid idea of oh,

1768
02:00:08,319 --> 02:00:12,319
history repeats itself or alternatively they like a show that,

1769
02:00:13,399 --> 02:00:15,640
but then they claim that you know, well there's not

1770
02:00:15,760 --> 02:00:18,680
really press it into extrapolate, so you can't make a

1771
02:00:18,800 --> 02:00:22,479
search an xyz. So like I was making the point

1772
02:00:22,520 --> 02:00:25,560
of the twentieth century, basically, there's nothing you can glean

1773
02:00:25,640 --> 02:00:28,640
from that moving forward ether in terms of the strategic

1774
02:00:28,800 --> 02:00:31,800
landscape or power political development. And this guy's like, well

1775
02:00:31,840 --> 02:00:34,880
you can't say that. I'm like, actually, I can you

1776
02:00:35,159 --> 02:00:37,399
tell me World War one is gonna happen again? That

1777
02:00:37,640 --> 02:00:41,039
never ever happens, you know, like that's that's the equipment

1778
02:00:41,119 --> 02:00:44,479
of like a meteor strike, you know. I mean so,

1779
02:00:46,119 --> 02:00:50,760
but this side Hobsbaum was interesting, especially the way he

1780
02:00:50,920 --> 02:00:54,479
characterized the Great War. I mean, obviously because he was

1781
02:00:54,880 --> 02:01:00,920
at base a doctor and near Marxist Leninists, he overstated

1782
02:01:01,079 --> 02:01:04,800
material and economic causes. But there is nuance there that

1783
02:01:05,279 --> 02:01:09,439
I think warrants attention, you know. But first, I mean

1784
02:01:09,479 --> 02:01:12,840
a little bit of background in terms of like what

1785
02:01:13,119 --> 02:01:16,279
laid the foundation for his sort of breakdown of the

1786
02:01:16,319 --> 02:01:22,520
Great War. Hasboum was very much he very much proposed

1787
02:01:22,560 --> 02:01:26,560
the theory of what's now called the general crisis. Okay,

1788
02:01:29,880 --> 02:01:32,760
with the what what what? The general crisis refers to

1789
02:01:33,640 --> 02:01:37,239
is this is this odd period in the nineteenth century

1790
02:01:39,399 --> 02:01:43,319
whereby on the one hand, there's this kind of running

1791
02:01:43,399 --> 02:01:48,680
stability in terms of power, political activity, and interstate warring.

1792
02:01:48,920 --> 02:01:54,479
You know, after Waterloo. After Waterloo, not much happened in Europe.

1793
02:01:54,760 --> 02:01:56,399
I mean, I mean a lot happened, but I mean

1794
02:01:56,439 --> 02:02:00,159
the in terms of war and peace developments. You know,

1795
02:02:00,199 --> 02:02:03,000
there was the Crimean War, which is very much restricted

1796
02:02:03,720 --> 02:02:09,560
to the theater, to the primary battle space, you know, uh,

1797
02:02:10,640 --> 02:02:16,399
which you know, very much spared the continent. And there's

1798
02:02:16,439 --> 02:02:21,000
the Franco Prussian War, which really that's kind of what

1799
02:02:21,159 --> 02:02:23,520
started to knock France out of the game as like

1800
02:02:23,640 --> 02:02:27,840
a true like bourgoning superpower in my opinion. But that also,

1801
02:02:28,439 --> 02:02:30,399
I mean that was that was kind of the the

1802
02:02:30,520 --> 02:02:34,680
most that was one of the greatest like Prussian victories

1803
02:02:34,720 --> 02:02:36,760
of all time. But that also, I mean that was

1804
02:02:36,840 --> 02:02:39,399
kind of the first blitzkrieg in some ways, you know,

1805
02:02:39,520 --> 02:02:42,920
and there there wasn't large scale civilian nutrition in it,

1806
02:02:43,520 --> 02:02:45,199
you know. But other than that, I mean, some of

1807
02:02:45,199 --> 02:02:47,239
the reasons I think, like I mentioned before, so many

1808
02:02:47,399 --> 02:02:51,079
European mercenaries like streamed into the United States so like

1809
02:02:51,840 --> 02:02:55,279
to take up to take up arms for pay for

1810
02:02:55,720 --> 02:02:57,800
you know, the Union or the Confederacy, because there just

1811
02:02:57,960 --> 02:03:00,520
wasn't there wasn't a lot going on. You know, if

1812
02:03:00,600 --> 02:03:05,000
you were if war fighting was your hustle, you know,

1813
02:03:05,159 --> 02:03:07,680
either because that's just what you like to do, you know,

1814
02:03:07,800 --> 02:03:10,000
you were an action junkie, or like that's how you

1815
02:03:10,079 --> 02:03:11,960
made a living. Like well, you've kind of had to

1816
02:03:12,000 --> 02:03:14,960
look abroad if you wanted to apply your trade, you know.

1817
02:03:15,800 --> 02:03:21,479
But there was a lot of social instability, and there

1818
02:03:21,560 --> 02:03:24,319
was a lot of there was a lot of sociological

1819
02:03:26,279 --> 02:03:30,079
there's a lot of punctuated disturbances, you know, like in

1820
02:03:30,199 --> 02:03:36,119
the social structure of the main European countries. And like

1821
02:03:36,239 --> 02:03:39,760
this started really after the Thirty Years of War. You know,

1822
02:03:40,840 --> 02:03:44,119
a huge Trevor Roper is another guy. He was very

1823
02:03:44,239 --> 02:03:47,000
very different than a Hobsball, but he basically abided this

1824
02:03:47,119 --> 02:03:50,760
as well. Okay, Like basically in the middle of the

1825
02:03:50,840 --> 02:03:55,640
seventeenth century, there's this total breakdown in politics and in

1826
02:03:55,760 --> 02:04:00,439
social order and economics and everything else, and this need

1827
02:04:00,640 --> 02:04:04,600
in you know, the Thirty Years War, you know, then

1828
02:04:04,640 --> 02:04:08,840
there's the English Civil War. Then in France what they

1829
02:04:08,920 --> 02:04:13,239
call like the Frond, which was basically like this running

1830
02:04:13,319 --> 02:04:17,039
civil unrest, you know, and in some cases just like

1831
02:04:17,239 --> 02:04:20,960
violent criminality that didn't even really have a political raizon detro.

1832
02:04:21,079 --> 02:04:23,039
It was just like guys kind of like clicking up

1833
02:04:23,520 --> 02:04:26,680
and like robbing, raping and killing people under some like

1834
02:04:26,800 --> 02:04:35,039
loose auspices of economic justice by violence, you know. The

1835
02:04:35,479 --> 02:04:39,800
the Holy Roman Empire, which uh, which was actually a

1836
02:04:39,880 --> 02:04:44,039
really important political structure. You know. I know that there's

1837
02:04:44,560 --> 02:04:47,680
a lot of Anglophone historians. They they're kind of like,

1838
02:04:47,720 --> 02:04:50,640
ohioly declared like it was a neither Holy nor Roman

1839
02:04:50,720 --> 02:04:53,560
nor an empire. It's like, okay, that's great, but it

1840
02:04:54,399 --> 02:04:59,039
the reason why like it took on that Moniker was

1841
02:05:00,000 --> 02:05:02,560
suggest that, you know, this is a transfer of sovereignty

1842
02:05:02,640 --> 02:05:05,680
to Europe central like from what was like the just

1843
02:05:05,840 --> 02:05:10,840
public on a romanum you know, I mean it does track. Okay,

1844
02:05:13,079 --> 02:05:18,439
there was revolts against the Spanish crown in Portugal, there

1845
02:05:18,600 --> 02:05:22,479
was there there were secessionist movements in Naples and Catalonia,

1846
02:05:23,199 --> 02:05:25,479
like and this also just like jumping off like at

1847
02:05:25,520 --> 02:05:29,199
the same time. You know, it wasn't coincidental that something

1848
02:05:29,359 --> 02:05:35,960
was happening, you know, and when when the dust kind

1849
02:05:36,000 --> 02:05:40,079
of settled, you had this increasing centralization at governments. Okay,

1850
02:05:41,079 --> 02:05:44,880
Like we talked about last session, there was this kind

1851
02:05:44,920 --> 02:05:47,880
of like nationalism that kind of took rude, but it

1852
02:05:47,960 --> 02:05:50,720
was like very March something Enlightenment phenomenon. Like again we

1853
02:05:50,800 --> 02:05:53,279
say like nationalism, We're not talking about some return to

1854
02:05:53,359 --> 02:05:58,039
sort of like tradition or or some adamistic tribalism. We're

1855
02:05:58,079 --> 02:06:00,000
saying that like kind of the court in these country

1856
02:06:00,199 --> 02:06:02,720
is consolidated. And it's like, okay, look, you know, like

1857
02:06:02,960 --> 02:06:06,119
within these sovereign parameters, like we are the only sovereign

1858
02:06:06,640 --> 02:06:08,399
we have the power to tax you, you and you

1859
02:06:09,279 --> 02:06:13,199
you know, the only the only legitimate men under arms

1860
02:06:13,239 --> 02:06:16,039
the ones weach are you know, stuff like that, Okay,

1861
02:06:18,359 --> 02:06:20,680
And it's kind this kind of like central bureaucracy like

1862
02:06:20,760 --> 02:06:23,600
developed to kind of prevent this chaos that have been happening.

1863
02:06:23,800 --> 02:06:26,000
And this is like one hundred and fifty year cycle

1864
02:06:26,119 --> 02:06:28,880
from like the end of like the Thirty Years War

1865
02:06:29,159 --> 02:06:31,319
and the Peace of Westphalia until like the start of

1866
02:06:31,359 --> 02:06:36,239
the nineteenth century. You know. But throughout the nineteenth century,

1867
02:06:36,359 --> 02:06:40,239
despite these this this kind of basic stability in terms

1868
02:06:40,239 --> 02:06:44,720
of like power political activity, there was this increasing tension

1869
02:06:45,279 --> 02:06:47,199
because you like a lot of these, A lot of these,

1870
02:06:47,279 --> 02:06:52,640
like you know, otherwise progressive states that its centralized, you know,

1871
02:06:52,920 --> 02:06:54,760
despite that they were they were most of them were

1872
02:06:54,800 --> 02:06:58,000
like run by absolute monarchs, or they were run by

1873
02:06:58,560 --> 02:07:03,680
a court that was essentially staffed by you know, like

1874
02:07:03,720 --> 02:07:10,439
an upper house of landed aristocrats. Okay, and obviously, you know,

1875
02:07:10,560 --> 02:07:12,880
clergy people still had a lot of cloud. You know,

1876
02:07:14,319 --> 02:07:19,640
the Roman Church couldn't assert itself in an absolute way

1877
02:07:20,359 --> 02:07:23,840
over sovereign governments anymore, but it still had great power.

1878
02:07:24,600 --> 02:07:26,920
So there's this weird disconnects. On the one hand, like

1879
02:07:27,039 --> 02:07:30,279
structurally you had the structure of the modern state like

1880
02:07:30,359 --> 02:07:33,359
as we know it today, but it was populated basically

1881
02:07:33,960 --> 02:07:39,600
by these aristocrats and and clerical types and people who

1882
02:07:39,920 --> 02:07:43,359
derived their mandate from sort of traditional modalities that were

1883
02:07:43,399 --> 02:07:47,560
ceasing to exist. Okay, I want to hosbal the big points.

1884
02:07:47,600 --> 02:07:50,039
And a lot of people don't understand this about Marxists.

1885
02:07:51,399 --> 02:07:55,279
Marxists don't look at aristocrats and the bourgeoisie is the

1886
02:07:55,399 --> 02:07:58,479
same thing. They look at them as opposing classes, which

1887
02:07:58,560 --> 02:08:04,439
they are, and the first revolution before the proletarian revolution

1888
02:08:04,560 --> 02:08:09,039
can happen, like basically the bourgeoisie have to annihilate the aristocracy,

1889
02:08:09,800 --> 02:08:13,039
and when that doesn't or can't happen, there's this kind

1890
02:08:13,039 --> 02:08:17,479
of stagnation and like the Marxist Leninist worldview, like nothing

1891
02:08:17,560 --> 02:08:21,680
is progressing, you know, there's not like innovation. Government kind

1892
02:08:21,720 --> 02:08:24,159
of it has this monopoly on power off there's something

1893
02:08:24,239 --> 02:08:27,199
dynamic about it. And this is critically important because I've

1894
02:08:27,239 --> 02:08:31,199
heard people talk about and especially because I understand why

1895
02:08:31,199 --> 02:08:35,560
people develop that impression based on the rhetoric as well

1896
02:08:35,600 --> 02:08:40,279
as the experience historically of the Russian Revolution. They view

1897
02:08:40,399 --> 02:08:43,640
like Bolsheviks's guys who like want to kill kings or

1898
02:08:43,640 --> 02:08:46,600
who like view like them as guys who just want

1899
02:08:46,640 --> 02:08:48,920
to burn down the churches because they view the church

1900
02:08:49,000 --> 02:08:51,119
as the repressor. That's not the way they look at it. Yeah,

1901
02:08:51,119 --> 02:08:53,800
they want to do those things, but their whole notion

1902
02:08:54,079 --> 02:08:58,720
is that the bourgeoisie is a revolutionary element too. It's

1903
02:08:58,760 --> 02:09:01,239
got to annihilate like the thrown an altar and like

1904
02:09:01,399 --> 02:09:05,720
the European court as it's existed for you know, millennia,

1905
02:09:05,840 --> 02:09:09,439
and it's now consolidated under the trap things of the

1906
02:09:09,520 --> 02:09:12,720
modern state. And then like when the bourgeoisie is able

1907
02:09:12,760 --> 02:09:16,159
to consolidate control of this modern means of production you know,

1908
02:09:16,319 --> 02:09:20,199
that can be applied to you know, basically resolving shortages

1909
02:09:20,279 --> 02:09:23,800
and poverty. Like that's like when the proletariat rises up

1910
02:09:24,079 --> 02:09:26,560
and then like takes over those means, and that's like

1911
02:09:26,640 --> 02:09:29,640
the final revolution. Then there's like no more class, there's

1912
02:09:29,680 --> 02:09:32,800
no more cast, you know, and like life can be

1913
02:09:32,920 --> 02:09:36,640
like socially homogenized, like in circumstances of plenty, and there's

1914
02:09:36,680 --> 02:09:40,319
not material need anymore. And because there's not contradictions anymore,

1915
02:09:40,359 --> 02:09:43,800
and there's not there's not material deprivation, like there's not

1916
02:09:44,039 --> 02:09:47,359
war anymore, and like all the superstructural features that cause

1917
02:09:47,399 --> 02:09:50,439
those things, you know, like like like racial problems and

1918
02:09:50,520 --> 02:09:54,359
things like those are all like annihilated because they can

1919
02:09:54,439 --> 02:09:58,640
no longer be exploited, either deliberately by design or or

1920
02:09:58,800 --> 02:10:01,640
or just by you know, or just you're just owing

1921
02:10:01,640 --> 02:10:06,079
to intrinsic tensions that that that that caused us stillity

1922
02:10:06,159 --> 02:10:09,920
owing to the internal contradictions of of a non vorestic paradigm.

1923
02:10:10,039 --> 02:10:15,920
Like that's what they're talking about. Okay, So Hobsbaum's view

1924
02:10:16,479 --> 02:10:19,239
and Roper's view, albeit for ay different reasons and a

1925
02:10:19,279 --> 02:10:22,880
lot of like Aanglo historians, was that this phenomenon I'm

1926
02:10:22,960 --> 02:10:26,560
talking about it basically kind of it created this like

1927
02:10:26,640 --> 02:10:33,159
weird stagnation, and these tensions kept on developed this sort

1928
02:10:33,199 --> 02:10:37,199
of unsustainable momentum, and then by the time of the

1929
02:10:37,359 --> 02:10:41,520
Great War, what it essentially happened was you had this

1930
02:10:41,680 --> 02:10:46,920
kind of like hyper competitive capitalist paradigm between the major

1931
02:10:46,960 --> 02:10:53,119
European powers, but it was kind of inconsistent across national

1932
02:10:53,239 --> 02:10:57,279
frontiers and uneven. Okay, so you had the Germans that

1933
02:10:57,319 --> 02:11:00,520
were absolutely killing it, and they were eclipsed in the UK,

1934
02:11:00,760 --> 02:11:02,960
which had previously been you know kind of like the

1935
02:11:04,159 --> 02:11:06,520
like like like like the like the factory of Europe,

1936
02:11:06,600 --> 02:11:10,000
you know, and and and and British products that they

1937
02:11:10,039 --> 02:11:12,399
had been like flooding the planet and markets far and wide,

1938
02:11:12,479 --> 02:11:15,920
like that was over with. But the but the newly

1939
02:11:16,039 --> 02:11:20,239
consolidated like German state like it was cash poor, you know.

1940
02:11:20,279 --> 02:11:21,920
And then he had the French, who, like I said,

1941
02:11:21,960 --> 02:11:24,199
they'd been kind of like knocked off of their pedestal,

1942
02:11:25,439 --> 02:11:28,279
you know, by the Franco Prussian War and never really recovered,

1943
02:11:28,600 --> 02:11:32,119
you know, frankly from like Waterloo and stuff. You know.

1944
02:11:32,239 --> 02:11:34,479
So they were like realizing that like they were gonna

1945
02:11:34,680 --> 02:11:37,119
like the future basically was them being like a junior

1946
02:11:37,199 --> 02:11:40,159
partner kind of in this like German dominated continent as

1947
02:11:40,199 --> 02:11:45,279
Europe becomes a superpower. Okay. And hobbs On view is like, look,

1948
02:11:45,359 --> 02:11:49,239
with the great equalizer raises and military power, and he's right,

1949
02:11:50,239 --> 02:11:53,359
and if you don't believe that, I mean, I'll relieve this, okay.

1950
02:11:54,560 --> 02:11:58,239
Like at peak, I'm talking in the era of like

1951
02:11:59,119 --> 02:12:04,119
undeniable strategy parody, like after nineteen seventy seven, the Soviet

1952
02:12:04,279 --> 02:12:09,239
Union at peak, it it's GDP was like one fifth

1953
02:12:09,319 --> 02:12:14,560
out of the United States. Okay, its annual growth was

1954
02:12:14,600 --> 02:12:17,279
like one point two percent or like something that would

1955
02:12:17,279 --> 02:12:22,560
be like viewed as pathetic by you know, by the UH,

1956
02:12:23,399 --> 02:12:26,640
by the Buddhist Republic or by the United States, but

1957
02:12:26,840 --> 02:12:32,560
they were probably like the strongest UH military power that's

1958
02:12:32,600 --> 02:12:37,439
ever existed on this planet. Okay. So in a Hosbo

1959
02:12:37,680 --> 02:12:41,359
his view like, look, if you're being if you're if

1960
02:12:41,359 --> 02:12:44,359
you're basically being merked, like in the game of UH,

1961
02:12:44,600 --> 02:12:48,319
in the great game of of of capitalist commerce, and

1962
02:12:49,479 --> 02:12:52,840
you know, the kind of zero sum competition before European

1963
02:12:52,880 --> 02:12:58,119
integration was a reality. Your trump card is essentially that

1964
02:12:59,079 --> 02:13:03,159
you can defer your enemies on the battlefield, you know,

1965
02:13:03,720 --> 02:13:08,119
and there was a certain conveinence here because again, you know,

1966
02:13:08,199 --> 02:13:14,319
the Crimean War resolved pretty rapidly. Okay, the Franco Prussian

1967
02:13:14,359 --> 02:13:18,000
War resolved pretty rapidly. The war between the states here

1968
02:13:18,039 --> 02:13:21,119
in America was a blood bath. But that, oh, just

1969
02:13:21,239 --> 02:13:27,239
peculiar conditions. Okay, So going into World War One, the

1970
02:13:27,319 --> 02:13:30,640
combatant states like, yeah, I mean there was there's complex

1971
02:13:30,760 --> 02:13:34,800
historical factors that conspired to make it happen. But the

1972
02:13:34,880 --> 02:13:40,880
major combatants figured that, well, you know, this is going

1973
02:13:40,920 --> 02:13:46,880
to resolve pretty rapidly, you know, and the British especially

1974
02:13:47,000 --> 02:13:54,760
thought that. And you know, I this is a discussion

1975
02:13:54,840 --> 02:13:58,640
for another series, but I said during the World War

1976
02:13:58,720 --> 02:14:01,760
One series that a whole Vegg think was, I mean,

1977
02:14:01,800 --> 02:14:05,600
here's the really sympathetic figure in the Great War, and

1978
02:14:07,920 --> 02:14:11,319
that that perfect exemplifies like what Howl was talking about,

1979
02:14:11,720 --> 02:14:13,840
the kind of the dynamic between like a wholeveg the

1980
02:14:13,960 --> 02:14:19,479
conseler and and and the Kaiser. You know, Wilhelm was

1981
02:14:19,560 --> 02:14:23,199
not a good man, and he he did not have

1982
02:14:23,359 --> 02:14:27,359
good command aptitude, but even if he had, there was

1983
02:14:27,439 --> 02:14:32,920
like this bizarre kind of tango where you had you

1984
02:14:33,039 --> 02:14:35,960
had like you know, the leader of government in a Wholveg.

1985
02:14:36,319 --> 02:14:38,600
Then you had literally the Kaiser who was the king.

1986
02:14:39,680 --> 02:14:42,800
Then you had these industrialists, and both Holeveg and the

1987
02:14:42,920 --> 02:14:47,479
Kaiser they had to organize like purchasing you know, arms, munitions,

1988
02:14:49,239 --> 02:14:55,840
figuring out some way to appropriate manufacturing and means to

1989
02:14:55,960 --> 02:15:01,279
sustain battlefield demands, but also compensating these price actors or

1990
02:15:01,359 --> 02:15:04,800
like you know, their outlays and things. So it's like

1991
02:15:04,840 --> 02:15:07,439
you got kind of like three bases of sovereignty that

1992
02:15:07,520 --> 02:15:11,399
are that are basically at odds and have competing interests,

1993
02:15:12,520 --> 02:15:19,199
but they're all profiting or at least you know, surviving

1994
02:15:19,600 --> 02:15:24,239
by virtue of this war enterprise, you know, and it

1995
02:15:24,399 --> 02:15:27,840
leaves us conditions where like nobody's really in charge. And

1996
02:15:27,960 --> 02:15:31,520
like hod made that point too, you know, and that's

1997
02:15:31,560 --> 02:15:35,119
why I put him kind of head and showers above

1998
02:15:35,199 --> 02:15:37,760
most most Marxists who just say, like, oh, well, world

1999
02:15:37,760 --> 02:15:41,680
War want to happen because you know, of overproduction, you know,

2000
02:15:41,760 --> 02:15:44,159
like and that that's that's ridiculous, Like, well, WAN didn't

2001
02:15:44,279 --> 02:15:47,119
happen because there was some conspiracy of capitalists like well,

2002
02:15:47,159 --> 02:15:49,399
we got to kill off, you know, our workers because

2003
02:15:49,399 --> 02:15:51,600
there's you know, we can't employ them, and and well,

2004
02:15:51,720 --> 02:15:53,720
you know we we don't. We don't we don't have

2005
02:15:53,800 --> 02:15:56,199
a destination for these or produced goods, so we're just

2006
02:15:56,239 --> 02:15:58,640
gonna blow them up on the battlefield. Like nobody thinks

2007
02:15:58,720 --> 02:16:01,279
that way, and that's all and not why wars happened.

2008
02:16:02,520 --> 02:16:04,920
And if that was the case, like if that was true,

2009
02:16:05,840 --> 02:16:09,199
like basically anytime there was a major recession, like the

2010
02:16:09,279 --> 02:16:12,439
president would just like devise a war like that, That's

2011
02:16:12,479 --> 02:16:16,000
not how things happen, you know, like if if there's

2012
02:16:16,039 --> 02:16:19,399
a huge financial crisis next year and America and the

2013
02:16:19,560 --> 02:16:22,039
Chinese would be like, let's like let's pretend to have

2014
02:16:22,119 --> 02:16:24,239
a war and sink each other's navies, Like well, what

2015
02:16:24,239 --> 02:16:26,279
would that accomplish? You know? That's I mean, I'm being

2016
02:16:26,359 --> 02:16:29,520
up too deliberately, But this is an important point because

2017
02:16:29,520 --> 02:16:32,760
they're refrain even a guys should know better, like well,

2018
02:16:32,840 --> 02:16:35,719
war's about big business or it's about money. It's like, no,

2019
02:16:35,840 --> 02:16:38,319
it's not, man Like, how is it about money? Like how?

2020
02:16:38,959 --> 02:16:43,520
I mean, yeah, people definitely find ways to profit from war,

2021
02:16:43,680 --> 02:16:46,680
but you can profit from literally anything, you know. I mean,

2022
02:16:46,760 --> 02:16:50,120
that's that doesn't tell us anything, you know, but that's

2023
02:16:51,239 --> 02:16:55,879
this is fundamentally important, and this not not just the

2024
02:16:55,920 --> 02:16:58,440
catach to feel the Great War, and you know the

2025
02:16:58,520 --> 02:17:02,040
fact that it kind of deformed the entire generation, I mean,

2026
02:17:02,159 --> 02:17:05,159
and put an entire generation in the grave as well.

2027
02:17:05,280 --> 02:17:09,799
But it these these these tensions and these uncertainties, this

2028
02:17:10,000 --> 02:17:12,959
is what uh, this is what facility. This is what

2029
02:17:13,120 --> 02:17:17,920
expedited the Bolshevik Revolution, which very easily, by the way,

2030
02:17:18,040 --> 02:17:21,200
could have prevailed europe wide. You know, I mean it's uh.

2031
02:17:23,280 --> 02:17:26,600
I'm the first to acknowledge, as any serious student in

2032
02:17:26,600 --> 02:17:32,879
the twentieth century, is it's strange that, uh, the the

2033
02:17:33,479 --> 02:17:40,639
literal heart of the of the Communist International was was Russia.

2034
02:17:40,840 --> 02:17:46,399
That's that's weird. But people conveniently forget or they just

2035
02:17:46,479 --> 02:17:51,280
don't know because they they're subjected to bad history, you know.

2036
02:17:51,319 --> 02:17:53,879
I mean, there was a communist revolution in Germany, there

2037
02:17:54,000 --> 02:17:56,719
was a communist revolution in Hungary, there almost was in

2038
02:17:56,799 --> 02:18:00,360
the UK. You know, this stuff was stopped by forrest arms.

2039
02:18:00,760 --> 02:18:04,079
It didn't just fizzle out or something, you know. But

2040
02:18:05,760 --> 02:18:08,280
this is the way to understand the twentieth century and

2041
02:18:08,399 --> 02:18:13,200
the degree to which you know, the twentieth century was

2042
02:18:13,360 --> 02:18:20,079
basically a reaction to communism. I mean, they can't be overstated,

2043
02:18:21,040 --> 02:18:24,920
you know, in power political terms, I mean, like, obviously,

2044
02:18:25,000 --> 02:18:29,879
if we're talking about human life at scale, in any book,

2045
02:18:30,000 --> 02:18:35,120
there's an entire myriad of factors across a broad spectrum

2046
02:18:35,200 --> 02:18:43,280
that go into that. But the kind of key takeaway is, uh,

2047
02:18:45,360 --> 02:18:51,440
you know what Osbon called the age of capitalism like

2048
02:18:51,559 --> 02:18:57,120
facilitated this and like that's he actually he wrote an

2049
02:18:57,239 --> 02:18:59,760
essay that became a book called The Age of Capital

2050
02:19:00,000 --> 02:19:06,159
eighteen forty eight to eighteen seventy five, and he makes

2051
02:19:06,200 --> 02:19:09,680
the point the word capitalism it first entered like the

2052
02:19:09,799 --> 02:19:13,680
let the academic lexicon in the eighteen sixties, you know,

2053
02:19:15,000 --> 02:19:19,639
from eighteen forty eight, like after the revolutions in Europe

2054
02:19:19,719 --> 02:19:25,200
were quashed in both Europe and America, there was this

2055
02:19:25,399 --> 02:19:30,120
there's this kind of like massive economic boom okay, And

2056
02:19:30,239 --> 02:19:33,239
that's one of the things that meant that there wasn't

2057
02:19:33,239 --> 02:19:38,479
another like eighteen forty eight like revolutionary sentiment because like

2058
02:19:38,559 --> 02:19:43,079
there's a lot of wealth being produced, you know. But

2059
02:19:43,239 --> 02:19:47,079
again there was these kinds of like obsolete social structures

2060
02:19:47,200 --> 02:19:52,680
that were sort of organizing people's lives. Nonetheless, yet these

2061
02:19:52,760 --> 02:19:57,760
societies were flooded with capital. But it was it wasn't

2062
02:19:59,360 --> 02:20:02,479
it was it was much like funnel into specific channels,

2063
02:20:02,559 --> 02:20:06,920
you know, not by conspiracy of design or something, but uh,

2064
02:20:08,319 --> 02:20:11,479
there just was not like a free like like individual

2065
02:20:11,600 --> 02:20:13,920
people and not a lot of person power, and this

2066
02:20:14,040 --> 02:20:19,079
created like weird disparities, you know, like there wasn't there's

2067
02:20:19,120 --> 02:20:22,959
a lot of like if you're a if you're a

2068
02:20:23,040 --> 02:20:26,680
neoliberal economic economist, you look at this as like basic

2069
02:20:26,799 --> 02:20:31,000
marketing efficiencies. You know, this is why like banking is

2070
02:20:31,040 --> 02:20:35,520
so important to like the monitorist view. And then they're

2071
02:20:35,600 --> 02:20:40,520
right about that. You know, the the availability of capital

2072
02:20:40,719 --> 02:20:46,600
and you know, uh competence and financial instruments like that.

2073
02:20:46,959 --> 02:20:49,840
That's that's the regulatory mechanism that's essential. But beyond that,

2074
02:20:49,959 --> 02:20:52,920
you basically need like capital flow like where it's going

2075
02:20:53,000 --> 02:20:58,000
to be most efficiently allocated in order to produce produce wealth.

2076
02:20:58,120 --> 02:21:00,559
And that that wasn't really happening, despite the fact that

2077
02:21:00,680 --> 02:21:04,479
you had you know, you had kind of at the

2078
02:21:04,600 --> 02:21:09,200
top and also kind of like unevenly distributed like sort

2079
02:21:09,239 --> 02:21:13,920
of throughout the sociological spectrum. You know, you had some

2080
02:21:14,159 --> 02:21:17,280
like some incredible innovations that were like aldering people's lives,

2081
02:21:17,799 --> 02:21:21,079
and there was like government could simply do things that

2082
02:21:21,159 --> 02:21:23,319
it couldn't before. I mean like lot World War One,

2083
02:21:23,440 --> 02:21:26,399
Like that's totally insane. Like the ability to mobilize like

2084
02:21:26,520 --> 02:21:29,799
five million men, arm them, equip them, feed them, then

2085
02:21:29,879 --> 02:21:32,840
like turn them loose to like assault your ops like

2086
02:21:33,920 --> 02:21:36,040
that that would be like unthinkable even in like the

2087
02:21:36,159 --> 02:21:41,000
Napoleonic era, you know. And it's not just modern command

2088
02:21:41,040 --> 02:21:43,399
and control. It was like transportation, it was you know,

2089
02:21:44,399 --> 02:21:47,479
it was more efficient fuel sources. It was like more

2090
02:21:47,520 --> 02:21:49,840
efficient killing technology, and it was like it was all

2091
02:21:49,920 --> 02:21:56,520
these things. But the uh, something else that's important too,

2092
02:21:56,639 --> 02:21:59,600
is Hoblom said. And he was writing this in the fifties.

2093
02:22:00,040 --> 02:22:01,639
See first rod As I say, like in the fifties,

2094
02:22:03,239 --> 02:22:05,559
but this age of capital this was like the first

2095
02:22:05,719 --> 02:22:10,559
This was like the NACA early stage of global globalization. Okay,

2096
02:22:12,680 --> 02:22:16,120
because if you were a major capitalist power, you know,

2097
02:22:16,159 --> 02:22:19,200
and again I involved in our capitalists and within the

2098
02:22:19,319 --> 02:22:21,680
terms Hoswam doesn't, I don't use those kinds of terms,

2099
02:22:23,000 --> 02:22:29,680
but you know, you the British Empire held equity basically

2100
02:22:29,799 --> 02:22:35,399
at every continent, you know, and America was not yet

2101
02:22:35,440 --> 02:22:39,559
a superpower, but you'd find American goods basically all over

2102
02:22:39,600 --> 02:22:48,079
the world, okay. And there wasn't a there wasn't a

2103
02:22:48,200 --> 02:22:54,760
unified banking structure, but lending across national frontiers at scale

2104
02:22:54,920 --> 02:23:01,120
with governments guaranteeing financial instruments, that started blowing up, you know,

2105
02:23:01,440 --> 02:23:04,600
and that that would have been unthinkable before. You know,

2106
02:23:05,719 --> 02:23:08,920
in a lot of countries, it was literally illegal for uh,

2107
02:23:09,520 --> 02:23:13,159
national banks to you know, to trade across the national

2108
02:23:13,239 --> 02:23:17,840
frontiers or to or to issue financial instruments in foreign markets.

2109
02:23:19,159 --> 02:23:22,319
But a lot of countries simply wouldn't deal in your currency,

2110
02:23:22,799 --> 02:23:24,920
like even if it was uh, even even if it

2111
02:23:24,959 --> 02:23:28,120
was viewed as you know, a desirable currency and speculators

2112
02:23:28,120 --> 02:23:30,920
would invest in it. Oh and and and purising foreign

2113
02:23:31,000 --> 02:23:33,399
currencies at this time was also largely illegal. It was

2114
02:23:33,440 --> 02:23:36,319
quote unquote currency speculation. It was like literally a crime,

2115
02:23:36,600 --> 02:23:40,239
which is crazy, but that that that that was the norm,

2116
02:23:40,479 --> 02:23:50,159
you know. But this uh but because of that, like

2117
02:23:50,280 --> 02:23:53,399
in the early stages of any economic system or any paradigm,

2118
02:23:53,639 --> 02:23:57,120
not system, but like paradigm, there's gonna be like really

2119
02:23:57,239 --> 02:24:02,799
really uneven growth, okay, and that's gonna lead to certain disparities.

2120
02:24:02,840 --> 02:24:06,600
I'm not talking like social justice disparities. I mean like

2121
02:24:06,719 --> 02:24:12,280
between enterprises, a lot of capital is being created, but

2122
02:24:12,399 --> 02:24:16,040
a lot is being wiped out like we just mentioned

2123
02:24:17,879 --> 02:24:22,040
across national frontiers, this kind of development is uneven. But

2124
02:24:22,280 --> 02:24:28,120
also certain industries develop a kind of outside cloud. Okay,

2125
02:24:29,319 --> 02:24:38,159
and not the arms industry per se, but the the

2126
02:24:38,319 --> 02:24:43,520
kind of a terrestrial manufacturing enterprises that facilitate the arms industry.

2127
02:24:44,840 --> 02:24:51,200
They developed outside power like as did again you know, uh,

2128
02:24:51,559 --> 02:24:55,479
financial institutions. This wasn't some conspiracy and that's not why

2129
02:24:55,520 --> 02:24:57,959
World War went happened, but it was a but it

2130
02:24:58,040 --> 02:25:04,159
facilitated resorting to military he measures to remedy power political imbalances.

2131
02:25:04,360 --> 02:25:08,840
Uh at scale. Okay, there was a perfect storm at things.

2132
02:25:09,200 --> 02:25:14,479
And again that's that's really important, you know. And in

2133
02:25:14,600 --> 02:25:17,440
my own like manuscript to try and emphasize this point

2134
02:25:18,559 --> 02:25:21,840
and has well, I don't. It's not like my primary

2135
02:25:22,200 --> 02:25:28,840
authority on it, but I do cite. But uh yeah,

2136
02:25:29,799 --> 02:25:37,520
moving on, it's also too domestically, whether you're talking about

2137
02:25:38,079 --> 02:25:42,840
the United States, the UK, France, or Germany, the way

2138
02:25:43,239 --> 02:25:45,799
such things I've got to mention were characterized kind of

2139
02:25:45,879 --> 02:25:51,120
differed along the you know, local custom and cultural differences

2140
02:25:51,200 --> 02:25:54,760
and convention, but kind of like the link the lingua

2141
02:25:54,879 --> 02:25:59,040
franc of government became you know this like there's like

2142
02:25:59,159 --> 02:26:04,440
this resurgence sort of like Enlightenment shivelus. So whether you're

2143
02:26:04,479 --> 02:26:07,879
in Berlin, London, Washington, Paris, all your heart from government

2144
02:26:08,000 --> 02:26:10,120
is oh see, like this is like an age of

2145
02:26:10,280 --> 02:26:14,319
unprecedented plenty, you know, it's the age of reason and

2146
02:26:14,520 --> 02:26:19,959
science and progress. But people were getting like ground into dust,

2147
02:26:20,639 --> 02:26:23,600
you know, and like working in a factory or a slaughterhouse.

2148
02:26:24,040 --> 02:26:28,520
That was like hell, you know, it's not I tell

2149
02:26:28,840 --> 02:26:31,360
a lot of guys in the right who they you know,

2150
02:26:31,440 --> 02:26:34,600
they throw shade on stuff like Upton Sinclair's the Jungle

2151
02:26:35,200 --> 02:26:37,959
and I'm like, okay, I'm like, yeah, I don't agree

2152
02:26:38,000 --> 02:26:41,319
with those kinds of conclusions either. But what he describes,

2153
02:26:41,920 --> 02:26:46,079
that's that's that's one hundred percent accurate. You know. There'd

2154
02:26:46,120 --> 02:26:50,000
be guys, uh, there was no welfare state. You couldn't

2155
02:26:50,040 --> 02:26:52,200
just get like a link card. So if you were

2156
02:26:52,239 --> 02:26:56,840
out of work, like you weren't eating, and basically your

2157
02:26:56,920 --> 02:27:00,000
ability to make a living depended on your ability to

2158
02:27:00,159 --> 02:27:04,440
physically like perform, you know, and guys would die on

2159
02:27:04,559 --> 02:27:07,280
the job like there's like ten percent like attrition and

2160
02:27:07,760 --> 02:27:10,440
like a steel mill or like a slaughterhouse, you know,

2161
02:27:10,520 --> 02:27:12,760
and if God for bidding, get injured or like you

2162
02:27:12,879 --> 02:27:17,399
lose three fingers on your hand in some machine. You know,

2163
02:27:18,680 --> 02:27:21,680
they're the big the biggest surplus in any major city

2164
02:27:21,719 --> 02:27:24,040
at this time was like that of like evil bodied

2165
02:27:24,120 --> 02:27:25,000
men who want to work.

2166
02:27:25,760 --> 02:27:29,760
Speaker 1: So did did hobs Im have anything to say about

2167
02:27:29,799 --> 02:27:34,879
the move from agrarianism to basically employment where you're providing

2168
02:27:34,959 --> 02:27:38,079
for yourself with your own with your own hands. And

2169
02:27:38,159 --> 02:27:40,760
then all of a sudden, it seems in the span

2170
02:27:40,840 --> 02:27:43,920
of a decade, people are moving to cities to get jobs.

2171
02:27:44,959 --> 02:27:48,159
Speaker 2: Yeah he uh yeah, yeah, he got he got a

2172
02:27:48,200 --> 02:27:53,159
lot into that. I mean, the the extrapolation of you know,

2173
02:27:53,239 --> 02:27:58,360
the household being the center of production to people being

2174
02:27:58,440 --> 02:28:02,760
forced to sell their lab as some sort of factory worker. Like, yeah,

2175
02:28:02,840 --> 02:28:08,879
that was tremendously disruptive, and you know it also, I

2176
02:28:08,959 --> 02:28:14,239
mean how mom was insightful in his sociological takedown because

2177
02:28:14,360 --> 02:28:18,200
unlike a lot of people, you know, show Schumpeter's big

2178
02:28:18,280 --> 02:28:21,719
critique of the Marcus paradigm and I'm gonna bring this back,

2179
02:28:21,760 --> 02:28:25,159
I'm going somewhere with this was like, look like Marcus

2180
02:28:25,200 --> 02:28:28,399
aren't really talking about class, Like the job you do

2181
02:28:28,760 --> 02:28:31,760
isn't your class, you know, like your class is what

2182
02:28:31,799 --> 02:28:36,920
you're born into and it's defined by how you relate

2183
02:28:37,079 --> 02:28:40,319
to other people similarly born to this kind of like

2184
02:28:40,440 --> 02:28:46,920
social stratum that isn't really mobile, you know. So in

2185
02:28:47,079 --> 02:28:51,079
Schumpeter's view, which is the traditional view, it doesn't matter

2186
02:28:51,159 --> 02:28:53,719
what job you're doing around which money you have, Like,

2187
02:28:53,799 --> 02:28:55,639
that's not what we're talking about. We're talking about a class,

2188
02:28:56,360 --> 02:28:58,959
and class isn't something you can just like jump up

2189
02:28:59,000 --> 02:29:03,639
from or down from, like within a generation. And Osbom

2190
02:29:03,719 --> 02:29:06,520
accepted some of those premises. He's like, yeah, you know,

2191
02:29:07,719 --> 02:29:10,360
one of the reasons why the working class exists is

2192
02:29:10,520 --> 02:29:16,200
because the social capital, the kind of facilitated no blessedge

2193
02:29:16,360 --> 02:29:18,959
oblige as well as you know, kind of the communitarian

2194
02:29:19,360 --> 02:29:24,239
impulse that you know, stood in for the welfare state

2195
02:29:24,559 --> 02:29:28,920
and antiquity and things. He's like, capitalism like rips all

2196
02:29:28,959 --> 02:29:31,399
that apart, and it makes every man like a stranger,

2197
02:29:31,680 --> 02:29:35,319
and it enshrines the war of all against all not

2198
02:29:35,559 --> 02:29:40,280
only as like an an implacable reality, but as like

2199
02:29:40,360 --> 02:29:44,399
a positive good. Almost so the only thing you have

2200
02:29:44,479 --> 02:29:47,879
in common with like your neighbors figuratively and literally is

2201
02:29:47,959 --> 02:29:51,280
that you're all being crushed like in these in this

2202
02:29:51,479 --> 02:29:55,760
like industrial labor environment, and you know, you've got to

2203
02:29:55,799 --> 02:29:59,319
stand together or all die. And that's like what the

2204
02:29:59,399 --> 02:30:02,200
working claim is. You know, it's not it's not a

2205
02:30:02,280 --> 02:30:05,239
class in like the traditional sense, or there's not some

2206
02:30:05,399 --> 02:30:11,360
like basic affinity between between people, like they're your comrades

2207
02:30:11,520 --> 02:30:14,879
because you're you're like in the same way you are

2208
02:30:15,120 --> 02:30:17,559
like with the guys you're like unjustly locked in prison

2209
02:30:17,639 --> 02:30:21,639
with you know, it's it's circumstances that like drive you together,

2210
02:30:22,719 --> 02:30:26,040
so and that and that that actually tracks with like

2211
02:30:26,079 --> 02:30:28,920
what marsh was talking about in dos Capital, Like if

2212
02:30:30,479 --> 02:30:33,079
when you talk about alienation, he's not just talking about

2213
02:30:33,120 --> 02:30:37,040
the process of whereby labor is not personal anymore. You

2214
02:30:37,120 --> 02:30:40,879
don't create things. You're not a producer. You're just doing

2215
02:30:40,959 --> 02:30:43,799
this like pointless process, like over and over and over again.

2216
02:30:43,879 --> 02:30:48,239
It's dangerous and dirty and painful, but it's alienation from

2217
02:30:48,280 --> 02:30:50,520
your fellow man. And even if you haven't to be married,

2218
02:30:50,639 --> 02:30:52,639
like you never see your wife. She she's stuck with

2219
02:30:52,719 --> 02:30:56,399
some dangerous, dirty job like you have. You know at

2220
02:30:56,440 --> 02:31:00,200
the end of the day, like maybe you like get

2221
02:31:00,200 --> 02:31:02,879
to sleep by saying betisar And occasionally you collide in

2222
02:31:03,319 --> 02:31:07,760
intimacy and have children but he's like that that alienation

2223
02:31:08,200 --> 02:31:12,360
touchs and concerns every aspect of the workers existence. It's

2224
02:31:12,399 --> 02:31:14,959
not it's not. It doesn't just like remove his labor

2225
02:31:15,079 --> 02:31:19,879
from his own domain and creative power. It alienates him

2226
02:31:19,959 --> 02:31:22,440
from like what should be his community. It alienates him

2227
02:31:22,440 --> 02:31:24,680
from his ethnos, it alienates him from his wife, It

2228
02:31:24,799 --> 02:31:28,200
alienates him from you know, he doesn't have neighbors anymore.

2229
02:31:29,200 --> 02:31:33,719
You know that this all tracks and yeah, so he

2230
02:31:33,879 --> 02:31:36,319
makes a lot out of that, and that's one of

2231
02:31:36,360 --> 02:31:43,520
the reasons why this process whereby the Vestigel aristocracy, he's

2232
02:31:43,559 --> 02:31:48,920
able to like hang on to power because people were

2233
02:31:49,079 --> 02:31:53,799
people like bonded in pee andage. They are dependent upon

2234
02:31:54,879 --> 02:31:57,440
like the lord of the manner. And this is a

2235
02:31:57,520 --> 02:32:03,959
deeply psychological process and it's enduring. It's in a Hosmon view, Okay,

2236
02:32:04,239 --> 02:32:07,760
this alien this this this alienation that is a matter

2237
02:32:07,799 --> 02:32:09,440
of life and death. In a lot of cases, it

2238
02:32:09,479 --> 02:32:12,079
sounds a matter of clodial life, like it stands to

2239
02:32:12,239 --> 02:32:16,479
kill you. He's like, really, the only remedy these people

2240
02:32:16,600 --> 02:32:19,079
have is like appeal to the church or to like

2241
02:32:19,159 --> 02:32:22,799
appeal to traditional social elements that are kind of like

2242
02:32:22,840 --> 02:32:25,440
the guardians of the culture. If you want to think

2243
02:32:25,440 --> 02:32:29,079
about it that way. So they appeal to aristocrats and stuff,

2244
02:32:29,639 --> 02:32:32,280
you know, for justice. And that's one of the things

2245
02:32:32,280 --> 02:32:35,639
that keeps these guys like if not relevant, like able

2246
02:32:35,719 --> 02:32:37,559
to remain like in situ.

2247
02:32:38,719 --> 02:32:38,879
Speaker 1: You know.

2248
02:32:39,600 --> 02:32:41,399
Speaker 2: That's why hosbal it.

2249
02:32:41,479 --> 02:32:44,719
Speaker 1: Keeps it keeps the revolution in stasis. There's no there's

2250
02:32:44,760 --> 02:32:46,280
no chance of having a revolution.

2251
02:32:46,440 --> 02:32:50,280
Speaker 2: Yeah, exactly, And so guys like a Hosball. And he

2252
02:32:50,319 --> 02:32:53,559
said this was the big problem in during like this

2253
02:32:53,799 --> 02:32:58,159
the long crisis he talked about, because uh, there was

2254
02:32:58,200 --> 02:33:01,680
always like technological innovation in this kind of future shock

2255
02:33:01,799 --> 02:33:06,959
and disturbance, but political cultures were like frozen, you know,

2256
02:33:07,440 --> 02:33:10,479
and that was I mean, that's that's the point of

2257
02:33:10,600 --> 02:33:14,600
like any revolutionary Marxist in the twentieth century, but Cosmon

2258
02:33:14,760 --> 02:33:20,000
especially because I think that he had a particular emphasis

2259
02:33:20,040 --> 02:33:23,360
as well as insight into sociological questions. He's like, we've

2260
02:33:23,360 --> 02:33:25,760
got to educate people to break them of these things,

2261
02:33:26,000 --> 02:33:28,280
of these tendencies. We've basically got to like break them

2262
02:33:28,319 --> 02:33:32,079
on their short term self interest or their attachment to it,

2263
02:33:32,600 --> 02:33:35,959
because we've got to literally kill the aristocracy. We've got

2264
02:33:36,000 --> 02:33:39,079
to allow the bourgeoisie to conquer everything. We've got to

2265
02:33:39,159 --> 02:33:42,200
let them consolidate, We've got to let them create conditions

2266
02:33:42,239 --> 02:33:46,680
of plenty before we kill them figuratively and literally. You know,

2267
02:33:47,600 --> 02:33:52,559
it's a very brutal view of a struggle processes, but

2268
02:33:52,959 --> 02:33:58,799
within the bounded rationality of Marxist Leninism that tracks, you know,

2269
02:33:59,360 --> 02:34:04,479
and there is like a kernel of truth to it,

2270
02:34:04,799 --> 02:34:08,120
not in terms of its ethical conclusions, but I mean,

2271
02:34:08,239 --> 02:34:12,079
like today this is a bit of a tangent, but

2272
02:34:12,200 --> 02:34:15,799
I'm was making the point to guys, this has died somewhat,

2273
02:34:15,959 --> 02:34:20,920
but it's it won't die completely. This is a favorite

2274
02:34:20,920 --> 02:34:24,559
refrain of of dissident people as well. There's gonna be

2275
02:34:24,559 --> 02:34:27,280
a massive financial collapse and a great depression. That's never

2276
02:34:27,319 --> 02:34:31,920
going to happen again, Okay, because it can't happen in

2277
02:34:32,000 --> 02:34:37,000
the state of information awareness. Like to the second information awareness,

2278
02:34:37,959 --> 02:34:41,040
that kind of stuff only happens long to uncertainties. There's

2279
02:34:41,079 --> 02:34:44,319
not uncertainties anymore. Like that doesn't mean the dollar can't

2280
02:34:44,440 --> 02:34:47,200
like bottom out, But even if it did, that doesn't

2281
02:34:47,239 --> 02:34:51,159
mean like you're not gonna be able to buy food. Okay, Now,

2282
02:34:52,559 --> 02:34:56,120
there could absolutely be shortages. I don't believe in climate

2283
02:34:56,280 --> 02:34:59,280
change in the sense of these crazy people who think

2284
02:34:59,399 --> 02:35:04,239
who are stand in like apocalypse cult for them. But

2285
02:35:04,760 --> 02:35:09,280
I'm certain that there's all kinds of environmental factors that

2286
02:35:09,840 --> 02:35:13,639
just owing to God's will or the nuances of of

2287
02:35:15,200 --> 02:35:19,600
of this planet, I I could easily see famines coming back.

2288
02:35:19,959 --> 02:35:22,639
I mean, uh, and you know, I mean it's if

2289
02:35:22,680 --> 02:35:26,120
they're if it suddenly became impossible to grow certain kinds

2290
02:35:26,120 --> 02:35:29,360
of crops, that would fool oar everything. I mean, so

2291
02:35:29,520 --> 02:35:32,840
I absolutely do not say like crises can't happen. But

2292
02:35:32,920 --> 02:35:38,200
this idea that you know, like owing to miscalculation or

2293
02:35:38,360 --> 02:35:44,000
owing to like a gap in you know, information awareness,

2294
02:35:45,040 --> 02:35:48,600
you know of hours or days, like you know, like

2295
02:35:48,959 --> 02:35:51,040
like billions of dollars is gonna be like wiped out

2296
02:35:51,079 --> 02:35:53,799
overnight in the stock market. That would never happen again.

2297
02:35:53,879 --> 02:36:00,760
That's retarded, you know. And guys like how One predicted

2298
02:36:00,840 --> 02:36:03,760
that he said, stuff's gonna largely be rubberized moving forward.

2299
02:36:03,920 --> 02:36:06,520
There's not gonna be like food shortages. You know, there's

2300
02:36:06,559 --> 02:36:09,120
not gonna it's gonna be very easy to produce things

2301
02:36:09,200 --> 02:36:12,879
that today him talking in like nineteen fifties are hard

2302
02:36:12,920 --> 02:36:15,440
to produce. You know, you're gonna like a lot of

2303
02:36:15,440 --> 02:36:18,399
these problems are gonna go away, you know, and that

2304
02:36:18,559 --> 02:36:21,399
and that happened, you know, and that's one of the

2305
02:36:21,440 --> 02:36:25,799
reasons why this is I mean, this is probably not

2306
02:36:25,879 --> 02:36:28,520
the scope, but one of the ways you can tell,

2307
02:36:28,639 --> 02:36:31,159
like our government is like full of like crackheads and

2308
02:36:31,280 --> 02:36:36,120
insane people is because if they didn't overreach and remotely smart,

2309
02:36:36,959 --> 02:36:40,799
they could basically hold on to power indefinitely. Because this

2310
02:36:40,920 --> 02:36:44,399
isn't the nineteen twenties, because because people aren't going hungry,

2311
02:36:44,959 --> 02:36:47,319
because there's not a military draft or we're respected to

2312
02:36:47,399 --> 02:36:50,520
like sacrifice your son in a meat grinder. You know,

2313
02:36:50,639 --> 02:36:55,040
there's not a Soviet Union whereby you know, at any

2314
02:36:55,159 --> 02:36:59,479
at any time basically, you know, some enemy society that's

2315
02:36:59,520 --> 02:37:02,840
like mobile lies a massive scale could decide to like

2316
02:37:02,959 --> 02:37:09,200
sue for war to remedy the kind of uneven power paradigm,

2317
02:37:09,799 --> 02:37:12,680
you know. Like so so it's it's you can tell

2318
02:37:12,680 --> 02:37:15,319
these people are insane because like they're they're basically burning

2319
02:37:15,399 --> 02:37:17,719
the house down when there's no reason to do that.

2320
02:37:19,079 --> 02:37:24,200
But you know that the degree to which, uh that

2321
02:37:24,319 --> 02:37:26,280
that's also why too. I mean, like I said, I

2322
02:37:26,840 --> 02:37:30,280
I it's it's it's dumb for people to claim that

2323
02:37:30,559 --> 02:37:34,600
people like Missus Harris are Marxists anyway, But it's Marxism,

2324
02:37:34,680 --> 02:37:37,760
isn't just Marxism, isn't wokeism, it's not it's not it's

2325
02:37:37,799 --> 02:37:43,959
not liberalism. It's it's it's it's a very discreete uh

2326
02:37:44,520 --> 02:37:49,319
like claim and series of claims about historical processes. And

2327
02:37:50,600 --> 02:37:54,920
in the short term, Marxists absolutely want capitalists to succeed.

2328
02:37:55,280 --> 02:37:57,360
They don't want it to fail, they want it to

2329
02:37:57,520 --> 02:38:00,479
fully succeed. They wanted to conquer every thing, and then

2330
02:38:00,520 --> 02:38:02,680
they want to kill the people at the helms of

2331
02:38:02,719 --> 02:38:09,120
the apparatus. Like that's whole point. You know what, what's

2332
02:38:09,200 --> 02:38:14,000
strange about how it developed in terms of actual practice

2333
02:38:15,559 --> 02:38:21,120
is that it did it did again like the like

2334
02:38:21,360 --> 02:38:23,840
like the the quite literally like the heart of the

2335
02:38:24,120 --> 02:38:26,680
of the Bolshevik Revolution in the real world was a

2336
02:38:26,760 --> 02:38:30,639
place that really had no like industrial working class. You know.

2337
02:38:30,920 --> 02:38:35,840
It was just like basically backwards monarchy that ruled over

2338
02:38:35,959 --> 02:38:38,879
this this this this is this massive territory you know,

2339
02:38:38,920 --> 02:38:40,639
like the Russian Empire had more in common with the

2340
02:38:40,680 --> 02:38:43,840
Ottomans than it did with Europe. Okay, I'm not saying

2341
02:38:44,120 --> 02:38:47,159
like racially or whatever, Like I'm not taking a position

2342
02:38:47,239 --> 02:38:49,639
on that. So I don't know, people get mad, but

2343
02:38:49,879 --> 02:38:51,799
in terms of the way it was structured, and in

2344
02:38:51,920 --> 02:38:55,600
terms of it being like an anachronism in the twentieth

2345
02:38:55,680 --> 02:38:58,920
century when it finally got brought down, it's really really

2346
02:38:59,079 --> 02:39:03,520
strange that this is where the bullshrep Revolution was consolidated

2347
02:39:03,559 --> 02:39:06,559
and truly succeeded. You know. That's why. That's one of

2348
02:39:06,600 --> 02:39:11,799
the reasons why when I talk a lot to these guys.

2349
02:39:12,520 --> 02:39:15,559
I'm not Jackson Hinkle himself. I don't know him, but

2350
02:39:15,840 --> 02:39:18,319
I know guys in his orbit and guys who describe

2351
02:39:18,319 --> 02:39:21,040
to that kind of worldview. So like, there are a

2352
02:39:21,040 --> 02:39:23,280
lot of there. Like rebuttals to people like me are like, well,

2353
02:39:23,360 --> 02:39:27,280
you can't extrapolate a lot from the Soviet Union. It's like, well,

2354
02:39:27,319 --> 02:39:30,239
I can, but even if I accept that postulate, well,

2355
02:39:30,319 --> 02:39:33,959
I can't extrapolate a lot, even by your own criteria,

2356
02:39:34,040 --> 02:39:36,959
from East Germany. Okay, you know, and it's well there

2357
02:39:37,000 --> 02:39:38,399
you go, Okay, you tell you tell me, like East

2358
02:39:38,479 --> 02:39:42,440
Germany wasn't an industrial state like it. I I mean,

2359
02:39:42,440 --> 02:39:45,079
if you want to perfectly realize, like marcis Alana state,

2360
02:39:45,159 --> 02:39:47,680
it was the DDR, I mean that they can't be argued,

2361
02:39:48,559 --> 02:39:50,600
I mean, I suppose like they're I suppose they're like

2362
02:39:50,799 --> 02:39:53,000
rebuttal of that would be like, well, that was an

2363
02:39:53,079 --> 02:39:56,879
artificial state that emerged out of like military exigencies, and

2364
02:39:57,760 --> 02:39:59,719
you know the fact that it was beliguered and threatened,

2365
02:40:02,360 --> 02:40:06,680
you know, owing to conditions imposed by capitalists, like is

2366
02:40:06,920 --> 02:40:10,680
somehow like takes off at table as as a pure

2367
02:40:11,319 --> 02:40:15,799
example of practice, but because it may you know, the

2368
02:40:17,159 --> 02:40:21,000
to bring it back again, I forgive m from ramblings.

2369
02:40:21,040 --> 02:40:26,319
I don't feel good, but the uh, the degree of

2370
02:40:26,399 --> 02:40:30,200
which again like marked actual Marxists viewed these things as

2371
02:40:30,319 --> 02:40:34,639
necessary processes like can't be denied. Like Marxist will not

2372
02:40:34,799 --> 02:40:38,040
be in the street saying like we need we need,

2373
02:40:38,319 --> 02:40:42,520
we need Acne Widget Company to hire more women because

2374
02:40:42,559 --> 02:40:44,840
it's bad not to And they wouldn't be saying like

2375
02:40:45,239 --> 02:40:47,879
we need to text these people more like none of

2376
02:40:47,959 --> 02:40:51,239
that would be like in their horizon. They'd be like,

2377
02:40:51,360 --> 02:40:54,000
we want Acne Widget Company to become like as massive

2378
02:40:54,079 --> 02:40:57,559
as possible. We wanted to insinuate itself into everything. We

2379
02:40:57,680 --> 02:41:01,280
wanted to be able to produce everything we needed, you know,

2380
02:41:02,479 --> 02:41:04,920
almost like magic, and then we want to kill the

2381
02:41:05,040 --> 02:41:07,040
people who own it and we want to take it

2382
02:41:07,360 --> 02:41:10,440
and we want to make it the public domain of

2383
02:41:10,520 --> 02:41:15,239
the workers. That's what they want or want it. Like

2384
02:41:15,360 --> 02:41:18,959
I said, I I white guy like Jackson Hinkel. I

2385
02:41:18,959 --> 02:41:21,600
think they're playing an important role right now if you're

2386
02:41:21,959 --> 02:41:25,120
any kind of dissident or in any kind of actual

2387
02:41:25,200 --> 02:41:26,079
resistance actor.

2388
02:41:26,200 --> 02:41:30,120
Speaker 1: But the really interesting, the interesting thing about that is

2389
02:41:31,520 --> 02:41:33,680
it's the way, you know that these people who call

2390
02:41:33,760 --> 02:41:39,879
themselves Marxists or call themselves communists nowadays aren't because they

2391
02:41:39,959 --> 02:41:44,120
would want Elon to succeed and take over and become

2392
02:41:44,600 --> 02:41:47,639
you know, like my friend Matt says his own hensiatic league.

2393
02:41:47,920 --> 02:41:50,559
They want him to do that so then they could

2394
02:41:51,200 --> 02:41:54,879
take it over by force. But they shit all over him,

2395
02:41:54,920 --> 02:41:56,600
and oh you know, yeah.

2396
02:41:57,639 --> 02:41:59,879
Speaker 2: Well, the point that the degree in which these people

2397
02:42:00,239 --> 02:42:03,120
today they're just like goofy envy crats who are like

2398
02:42:04,120 --> 02:42:06,520
it's just they're just like people who are like that

2399
02:42:06,639 --> 02:42:08,879
guy's a big shot. I don't like him. It's like

2400
02:42:08,920 --> 02:42:11,639
that basic, you know, and it's like it doesn't and

2401
02:42:11,760 --> 02:42:14,760
like you can only that too is a symptom of

2402
02:42:14,840 --> 02:42:18,440
prosperity as well, because even yeah, you read, Ernest Younger

2403
02:42:18,600 --> 02:42:21,600
was a fascinating guy in all kinds of ways, but

2404
02:42:21,760 --> 02:42:25,399
he lived through this stuff, and you know, he kind

2405
02:42:25,440 --> 02:42:28,040
of he was kind of a strass arrist man, you know,

2406
02:42:28,159 --> 02:42:31,719
like he he was very much a socialist. And if

2407
02:42:31,760 --> 02:42:34,239
you read something like The Glass Bees, the character of

2408
02:42:34,399 --> 02:42:37,719
Zapperoni likes he's obviously like kind of a matchup. But

2409
02:42:37,799 --> 02:42:42,959
like Howard Hughes and Andrew Carnegie and and like Walt Disney.

2410
02:42:44,079 --> 02:42:47,399
But uh, you know, and like that, guys like Zapperoni

2411
02:42:47,479 --> 02:42:51,639
are real type. But you know, guys like Younger thought

2412
02:42:51,719 --> 02:42:54,760
these guys were historical giants. They're like, these guys are

2413
02:42:54,799 --> 02:42:57,479
gonna change the world. They're gonna change everything, and they're

2414
02:42:57,520 --> 02:43:01,040
playing an essential role in this historical process. You know.

2415
02:43:03,000 --> 02:43:07,360
That's it's not I mean, I'm I'm as anti communist

2416
02:43:07,399 --> 02:43:09,959
as it's possible to be. I don't think that should

2417
02:43:09,959 --> 02:43:14,200
be in dispute. But communists, they're they're not dummies, or

2418
02:43:14,239 --> 02:43:16,360
they weren't dummies who were just like I'm I don't

2419
02:43:16,520 --> 02:43:18,639
like that guy because he has more stuff than me.

2420
02:43:18,840 --> 02:43:21,399
It has nothing to do with that, you know, Like,

2421
02:43:21,479 --> 02:43:23,840
it's not it's not just like dumb a lumping bullshit

2422
02:43:24,079 --> 02:43:28,120
or like guys who think like gangster rappers, or something

2423
02:43:28,200 --> 02:43:31,879
like that's not like that, that's fucking retarded, you know,

2424
02:43:32,000 --> 02:43:38,280
and this, uh, the these it's it's these like internet

2425
02:43:38,319 --> 02:43:39,920
guys who have never read a book in their life

2426
02:43:40,000 --> 02:43:44,319
like calling people. It's like goofy as fuck. But but no,

2427
02:43:44,479 --> 02:43:47,399
I think, you know, and today I REALI wasn't going

2428
02:43:47,440 --> 02:43:49,799
aside the scope. Don't forgive me for that if it's

2429
02:43:51,440 --> 02:43:58,840
boring people. But guys like Emmanuel Wallerstein, guys who uh,

2430
02:44:00,120 --> 02:44:03,319
these kinds of post Marxist types who do like talk

2431
02:44:03,399 --> 02:44:07,840
about you know, social justice within globalism. I mean, yeah,

2432
02:44:07,920 --> 02:44:10,760
obviously I don't like have common cause with those guys,

2433
02:44:11,319 --> 02:44:15,200
but they're really the only like intelligent aspect of the left.

2434
02:44:15,280 --> 02:44:17,520
And I think those guys are making a comeback because

2435
02:44:17,520 --> 02:44:20,959
everybody hates the fucking regime and like literally everybody hates liberals,

2436
02:44:21,159 --> 02:44:23,680
like everybody fucking hates liberals and things. They're like awful

2437
02:44:23,719 --> 02:44:27,639
pieces of shit, you know. That's why, like I said,

2438
02:44:27,760 --> 02:44:29,520
like people, I mean, he'll throw shite on me all

2439
02:44:29,520 --> 02:44:31,159
the time, and I don't care, like I'm not here

2440
02:44:31,200 --> 02:44:34,920
to make friends and I'm used to it. But you know,

2441
02:44:35,079 --> 02:44:38,520
the uh they get mad at me, whether it's because

2442
02:44:38,840 --> 02:44:41,680
you know, I got respect for Moslims and view them

2443
02:44:41,719 --> 02:44:44,319
as like an essential part of the new resistance. Or

2444
02:44:44,360 --> 02:44:46,959
they get mad at me for like retweeting like Jackson

2445
02:44:47,079 --> 02:44:52,040
Hinkle or something. But it's like they don't understand part

2446
02:44:52,079 --> 02:44:56,959
of bringing down the regime and discrediting it is like

2447
02:44:57,079 --> 02:44:59,600
pointing out not just how morally bankrupt it is, but

2448
02:44:59,719 --> 02:45:03,280
how like staggering like ignorant it is. And it's acolytes

2449
02:45:03,319 --> 02:45:07,479
are you know? And if there's if there's a serious

2450
02:45:07,639 --> 02:45:11,639
left wing with revolutionary ambitions, that's not a bunch of

2451
02:45:11,719 --> 02:45:14,799
degenerate natural slaves, Like that's that's a good thing, man,

2452
02:45:14,920 --> 02:45:16,920
Like how is that bad? You know, like you got

2453
02:45:16,959 --> 02:45:19,399
people can't like take their like personal feelings out of stuff.

2454
02:45:19,440 --> 02:45:21,280
It's pathetic. It's like talking to a bunch of like

2455
02:45:21,879 --> 02:45:23,719
it's like talking to about a little kids or like

2456
02:45:24,159 --> 02:45:30,760
modeling old women or something. But the but that's you know,

2457
02:45:30,840 --> 02:45:35,879
and that's also why you know again the like I said,

2458
02:45:36,000 --> 02:45:38,680
we started out like that that dude I'm not gonna name,

2459
02:45:39,879 --> 02:45:44,200
you know, acting like uh, I was dropping cap when

2460
02:45:44,200 --> 02:45:49,120
I was saying, like, you know, the it's as nine,

2461
02:45:50,840 --> 02:45:56,760
you know, to arrange force structure or to conceptualize grant

2462
02:45:56,799 --> 02:45:59,840
strategy in like twentieth century terms, you know, like the

2463
02:46:01,520 --> 02:46:04,040
like like twentieth century wars can never happen again. That's

2464
02:46:04,079 --> 02:46:06,840
never going to happen again. You know, it's not gonna

2465
02:46:06,879 --> 02:46:10,280
happen again in a thousand years, you know, like that

2466
02:46:12,440 --> 02:46:16,600
that the end of the uh the uh the changing

2467
02:46:17,159 --> 02:46:20,799
like like everything these days is changing, like I you know,

2468
02:46:20,879 --> 02:46:23,239
like I mean the point before about like just today

2469
02:46:23,280 --> 02:46:24,840
I was talking to some of the fellas about like

2470
02:46:24,920 --> 02:46:29,079
public education is dying and nobody believes anymore. Like those

2471
02:46:29,159 --> 02:46:32,600
law enforcement like a couple of months back, they're like

2472
02:46:32,639 --> 02:46:36,079
I see in Chicago now, like I said, even you know,

2473
02:46:36,239 --> 02:46:39,479
like like policing is gonna be privatized. It's you know

2474
02:46:39,559 --> 02:46:41,680
in the South, Like I mean you're in I'm sure

2475
02:46:41,719 --> 02:46:43,879
you see this, you know how Like they're still trying

2476
02:46:43,879 --> 02:46:46,079
to fight the run drugs like it's nineteen eighty two

2477
02:46:46,280 --> 02:46:50,319
or something. And like there was this ridiculous press conference

2478
02:46:50,399 --> 02:46:54,559
and they like the Tennessee Threau of Investigation they held

2479
02:46:54,600 --> 02:46:59,600
this like press conference. It was them Homeland Security atf FBI.

2480
02:47:01,280 --> 02:47:04,440
There's this whole mass investigation to literally bust these like

2481
02:47:04,639 --> 02:47:08,600
two like outlaw bikers like sligging meth and they're like

2482
02:47:08,959 --> 02:47:11,760
we've were taking drugs off the street. And the comments

2483
02:47:11,799 --> 02:47:14,520
were like you people are idiots, you know, they're like

2484
02:47:14,559 --> 02:47:16,079
what what do you think this is? You know, it's

2485
02:47:16,159 --> 02:47:19,280
like like there wasn't like a single positive comment, man,

2486
02:47:20,200 --> 02:47:22,520
And it's like this is like a time warf. It's

2487
02:47:22,559 --> 02:47:24,760
like what the fuck are these people doing? You know,

2488
02:47:24,959 --> 02:47:27,680
like nobody believes in that garbage anymore. Now now you

2489
02:47:27,760 --> 02:47:31,920
got homeland security like shaken down, like trailer park meth heads. Really,

2490
02:47:32,760 --> 02:47:36,040
you know, like that's like that's pathetic, man. You know,

2491
02:47:36,120 --> 02:47:42,920
this whole apparatus, the people sustaining it, they're these like

2492
02:47:43,000 --> 02:47:46,719
increasingly aged parasites who can't like adapt to the twenty

2493
02:47:46,760 --> 02:47:49,440
first century, you know. And that's one of the things

2494
02:47:49,520 --> 02:47:52,479
that swept Trump into power. It's the kind of stuff

2495
02:47:52,559 --> 02:47:56,479
hobsbamb and Franklin, the Marxist we're talking about, Like like

2496
02:47:56,760 --> 02:47:59,479
they the way they would have viewed Trump is like

2497
02:48:00,600 --> 02:48:02,360
you know this, They wouldn't viewed him a some like

2498
02:48:02,479 --> 02:48:04,559
arch reaction area. They would have been like, well that

2499
02:48:04,680 --> 02:48:06,680
this guy is basically a con man. But he's saying

2500
02:48:06,680 --> 02:48:10,000
he's gonna like sweep away these obsolescent aspects of of

2501
02:48:10,239 --> 02:48:14,079
of state that people like don't think serves their interests anymore.

2502
02:48:14,920 --> 02:48:16,840
And that and that's why a lot of people voted

2503
02:48:16,840 --> 02:48:19,040
for Trump. It's not I mean, yeah, there's like people

2504
02:48:19,040 --> 02:48:23,120
who just like love Trump. There's people who you know,

2505
02:48:23,360 --> 02:48:26,559
like uh, who would have voted for RFK Junior, who

2506
02:48:26,600 --> 02:48:29,399
are just like protest voters, but like your average like

2507
02:48:29,520 --> 02:48:34,079
man or lady, like it's not particularly politically sophisticated or inclined.

2508
02:48:34,159 --> 02:48:38,440
Like they voted for Trump because their instincts are basically

2509
02:48:38,600 --> 02:48:40,760
sound and they're like what what what the hell is

2510
02:48:40,760 --> 02:48:43,559
going on here? Like we they'll put together that's a

2511
02:48:43,639 --> 02:48:47,120
regime they live under. It's like this twentieth century obsolete structure.

2512
02:48:47,920 --> 02:48:49,920
They don't tink a out on those turns, and they realize,

2513
02:48:50,000 --> 02:48:52,159
like this is like a zombie regime, like it doesn't

2514
02:48:52,200 --> 02:48:57,360
make sense anymore, like why you know, like it's it's

2515
02:48:59,360 --> 02:49:03,079
and then you know, it's, uh, it's really interesting to

2516
02:49:03,120 --> 02:49:05,360
see this develop in real time, man, you know. And

2517
02:49:05,479 --> 02:49:09,520
that's why one of the things like part of my

2518
02:49:09,639 --> 02:49:12,600
vetting process, the people who I kind of take on

2519
02:49:12,719 --> 02:49:17,000
as allies. I mean, that's a complicated process. I can't

2520
02:49:17,040 --> 02:49:19,600
really break it down into like criteria. But one thing

2521
02:49:19,639 --> 02:49:21,920
that's essential was like if like we do not want

2522
02:49:22,000 --> 02:49:24,079
reaction areas, we do not want people who think the

2523
02:49:24,159 --> 02:49:26,479
good old days were dope, or that we need to

2524
02:49:26,559 --> 02:49:29,639
like turn back time or that, or people who think

2525
02:49:29,639 --> 02:49:33,680
that like n Segue is like making things like where

2526
02:49:33,719 --> 02:49:36,479
we take over the government and can like manage its puireaucers.

2527
02:49:36,600 --> 02:49:39,959
It's like people like that are not with the program.

2528
02:49:40,440 --> 02:49:42,319
And I mean now that not only is that like

2529
02:49:42,399 --> 02:49:45,239
not at all what we're about, but that's that's got

2530
02:49:45,319 --> 02:49:48,520
nothing to do with the trajectory of history and stuff

2531
02:49:48,600 --> 02:49:53,479
like that. I don't mean to be I don't mean

2532
02:49:53,520 --> 02:49:55,440
to like abrogate this, but I really don't feel good.

2533
02:49:55,520 --> 02:49:58,920
So if we could, like if we could, if we

2534
02:49:58,959 --> 02:50:01,559
could wrap it up, that'd be And if you want to,

2535
02:50:01,680 --> 02:50:03,879
if you want to do another episode because this wasn't

2536
02:50:04,079 --> 02:50:07,280
up to snuff, we can absolutely do that. No.

2537
02:50:07,520 --> 02:50:10,760
Speaker 1: I appreciated the conversation at the ending because I think

2538
02:50:10,840 --> 02:50:13,639
that's a conversation that people on the right need to hear.

2539
02:50:14,520 --> 02:50:14,559
Speaker 2: That.

2540
02:50:15,120 --> 02:50:17,959
Speaker 1: Yeah, I think there's too much of a jump towards

2541
02:50:18,920 --> 02:50:22,440
capitalism solves everything, you know, And I've been reading some

2542
02:50:22,559 --> 02:50:26,360
of List's letters lately, and it's really opening up my

2543
02:50:26,440 --> 02:50:36,239
eyes to just how damaging the especially the overseas, the globalism,

2544
02:50:37,280 --> 02:50:41,959
just what it does to you know, the vult and oh.

2545
02:50:41,959 --> 02:50:44,879
Speaker 2: Yeah, what's also why it's crazy these people with like

2546
02:50:45,000 --> 02:50:47,479
think they hate Maslims for no reason because some like

2547
02:50:47,639 --> 02:50:50,000
Zionists on TV told them to, or because they think

2548
02:50:50,040 --> 02:50:53,760
that because they think that like some like shitbig immigrants

2549
02:50:53,760 --> 02:50:55,559
who did something to do to them is like Islam.

2550
02:50:55,719 --> 02:50:57,760
It's like, man, you want to know, like darl Islam

2551
02:50:57,799 --> 02:51:01,239
has been getting crushed man by globalism for decades. I mean,

2552
02:51:01,319 --> 02:51:02,920
like they're on the front lines of this shit. Like

2553
02:51:02,959 --> 02:51:04,559
what's happening to them is as bad as what was

2554
02:51:04,559 --> 02:51:06,959
done to Europe. Like you're you think that's cool, Like

2555
02:51:07,079 --> 02:51:09,360
these guys you're ops because they're like fighting back against

2556
02:51:09,399 --> 02:51:11,959
that shit. It's like, get the fuck out of here.

2557
02:51:12,159 --> 02:51:14,639
I mean people actually think that way, are my ops?

2558
02:51:14,920 --> 02:51:18,959
You know, Like it's yeah, yeah, but it's also too

2559
02:51:19,079 --> 02:51:25,079
like they it's probat of internalizing like enemy conceptual vocabulary,

2560
02:51:25,799 --> 02:51:30,120
like people who they they just like mirror like that

2561
02:51:30,239 --> 02:51:32,920
they use terms like racist or like they think like, oh,

2562
02:51:33,000 --> 02:51:35,479
I'm a capitalist because that's who my ops like say

2563
02:51:35,559 --> 02:51:38,799
I am. It's like, so you define yourself, I will

2564
02:51:38,879 --> 02:51:41,479
like somebody like Missus Harris or Joe Biden says, or

2565
02:51:41,639 --> 02:51:44,559
like what some like idiot whet professor says like, I

2566
02:51:45,639 --> 02:51:48,000
I mean, how basic are you? You know? I don't

2567
02:51:48,079 --> 02:51:49,799
use the kind of terms because they again we're talking

2568
02:51:49,799 --> 02:51:53,879
about people like Osbam. I kind of have to use

2569
02:51:53,920 --> 02:51:57,680
a shorthand you know, it's like, but I don't, there's

2570
02:51:57,760 --> 02:52:04,000
not there's not really I'm not like a Kazinski guy.

2571
02:52:04,040 --> 02:52:05,680
I like a lot of like I know, a lot

2572
02:52:05,719 --> 02:52:08,639
of like disient type dudes really like head k. I mean,

2573
02:52:08,639 --> 02:52:10,360
there's nothing wrong with like being into him.

2574
02:52:11,200 --> 02:52:14,120
Speaker 1: I've cited him extensively.

2575
02:52:14,159 --> 02:52:17,600
Speaker 2: I've read about Yeah, but what you called industrial society,

2576
02:52:17,799 --> 02:52:20,920
that's a lot more accurate, you know, like.

2577
02:52:23,399 --> 02:52:26,719
Speaker 1: And industrial people think that that book. People think that

2578
02:52:26,840 --> 02:52:29,319
book is like I have a friend who says, oh,

2579
02:52:29,440 --> 02:52:31,920
you can take an al Gore book and hold it

2580
02:52:32,079 --> 02:52:34,079
right up next to it and it's the same exact thing.

2581
02:52:34,319 --> 02:52:36,879
It's like, No, he's writing about the human condition. He's right,

2582
02:52:37,280 --> 02:52:41,959
what you know, what the what the industrial revolution did

2583
02:52:42,079 --> 02:52:43,319
to the human condition.

2584
02:52:43,280 --> 02:52:47,200
Speaker 2: Is And I read outdoor, No, that's fucking retarded. Well,

2585
02:52:47,239 --> 02:52:48,920
I mean, these guys are just like say things like

2586
02:52:48,920 --> 02:52:50,719
they don't I guarantee these guys like never read a

2587
02:52:50,799 --> 02:52:55,079
book except maybe like some fucking airport paperback. But I no,

2588
02:52:55,200 --> 02:53:00,920
I remember when the Manifesto dropped in ninety ninety six.

2589
02:53:01,639 --> 02:53:02,879
I think it was. I think it was like late

2590
02:53:02,920 --> 02:53:04,319
summer ninety five, but like when.

2591
02:53:04,239 --> 02:53:06,920
Speaker 1: It ran in that page summer late summer ninety Yeah.

2592
02:53:07,000 --> 02:53:09,319
Speaker 2: Yeah, when I ran in the papers, like I made

2593
02:53:09,360 --> 02:53:11,719
sure like I I read it, you know, and it

2594
02:53:11,840 --> 02:53:15,840
was it was, Uh, it was insightful stuff. I mean,

2595
02:53:15,879 --> 02:53:18,200
he's got some blind spots, like especially a lot of

2596
02:53:18,239 --> 02:53:20,319
like Mas Samon types do like a lot of those

2597
02:53:20,319 --> 02:53:24,200
guys don't really fully grasp like politics. But uh, the

2598
02:53:24,239 --> 02:53:27,680
stuff when when he was talking about technological development and

2599
02:53:27,760 --> 02:53:30,920
the impact of production and labor and like how man

2600
02:53:31,200 --> 02:53:34,719
like individually and collectively interfaces with that, that was pretty

2601
02:53:35,159 --> 02:53:37,360
That was that was pretty insightful. And like I said,

2602
02:53:38,200 --> 02:53:41,079
the term industrial society, that that there's a lot more

2603
02:53:41,159 --> 02:53:45,239
meaningful than capitalism, you know, and it's and obviously too

2604
02:53:45,360 --> 02:53:48,799
like a terms inherently reduction. It's like like the capitalist

2605
02:53:48,959 --> 02:53:51,719
is everything he does. It's just like stack up capital

2606
02:53:51,840 --> 02:53:53,719
and like assets like that's not that's not the way

2607
02:53:53,719 --> 02:53:56,520
people think. Like even some guy in Wall Street who's like,

2608
02:53:56,639 --> 02:53:58,559
you know, kind of a stereotypical walk her Huster, that's

2609
02:53:58,600 --> 02:54:01,959
not like the way he thinks. Like he's you know,

2610
02:54:02,120 --> 02:54:05,399
he and and Bay. It's the reason he, Like the

2611
02:54:05,440 --> 02:54:07,799
reason a guy like that his world is defined by

2612
02:54:07,920 --> 02:54:10,879
money is because that's like power activity in his world.

2613
02:54:11,159 --> 02:54:13,000
And that's like a way, that's a way he can

2614
02:54:13,120 --> 02:54:17,799
like engage in power activity congruous like his discrete capabilities

2615
02:54:17,879 --> 02:54:21,040
and and like psychology. It's not like it's not like

2616
02:54:21,200 --> 02:54:23,760
money is like this ending itself to everybody like in

2617
02:54:23,840 --> 02:54:27,479
the capitalist system. But I mean that's these these things

2618
02:54:27,520 --> 02:54:30,040
are important. But yeah, like again, man, like I said,

2619
02:54:30,120 --> 02:54:31,719
sorry if this was not the par but I this

2620
02:54:32,120 --> 02:54:33,760
it's been. I'm not trying to be a martyr. But

2621
02:54:34,040 --> 02:54:37,360
just because like I do have responsibility to people, I

2622
02:54:38,280 --> 02:54:40,879
thinks this week has not been great in terms of.

2623
02:54:41,280 --> 02:54:43,719
Speaker 1: I think people. I think people like this episode more

2624
02:54:43,799 --> 02:54:44,239
than you think.

2625
02:54:44,719 --> 02:54:45,959
Speaker 2: Okay, that makes me happy.

2626
02:54:46,159 --> 02:54:48,719
Speaker 1: Uh do do plugs real quick?

2627
02:54:49,479 --> 02:54:54,920
Speaker 2: Yeah? Man? As always, Uh, try and direct people to

2628
02:54:55,000 --> 02:54:59,239
my website. It's Thomas seven seven seven dot com. It's

2629
02:54:59,360 --> 02:55:02,399
number seven and h O a s seven seven seven

2630
02:55:02,440 --> 02:55:04,719
dot com. I'm gonna tweak that some man. I was

2631
02:55:04,719 --> 02:55:06,920
gonna trying on top of it this week, but it

2632
02:55:07,079 --> 02:55:09,639
but what it's it's dope, the kid who put it together.

2633
02:55:09,799 --> 02:55:14,600
He's great. And anytime I drop anything new, it pops

2634
02:55:14,680 --> 02:55:17,079
up there on like the feed. So that's like a

2635
02:55:17,120 --> 02:55:19,200
good way to keep up with stuff if you like

2636
02:55:19,319 --> 02:55:25,399
the stuff I do. I'm on social media at Capital

2637
02:55:25,559 --> 02:55:29,200
r e A L underscore number seven h o A

2638
02:55:29,360 --> 02:55:33,440
s seven seven seven. The best place to find me

2639
02:55:33,680 --> 02:55:39,280
is substack. That's from my pod is and stuff. It's

2640
02:55:39,399 --> 02:55:44,360
uh real Thomas seven seven seven at subsec dot com.

2641
02:55:44,920 --> 02:55:50,520
And yeah, if in the description, if you could include

2642
02:55:50,639 --> 02:55:53,840
uh the Merse wings too. You know, I'm like a

2643
02:55:53,920 --> 02:55:58,440
big like T shirt and clothes and merse guy, and

2644
02:55:58,680 --> 02:56:02,319
uh that's actually been selling pretty well, which makes me

2645
02:56:02,479 --> 02:56:06,520
very happy. But yeah, that's that's what I've got.

2646
02:56:07,639 --> 02:56:09,360
Speaker 1: I'll take care of that for you, all right, Thank

2647
02:56:09,399 --> 02:56:10,280
you appreciate it.

2648
02:56:10,760 --> 02:56:11,760
Speaker 2: Yeah, likewise, man,