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Speaker 1: All right, welcome everybody. It's another episode of Jays Analysis.

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And you may recall some years back, maybe four or

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five years ago, Snack and I had a great guy

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on named George, and George was working at that time

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on kind of a loose draft of a book that

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covered infamous papal forgeries and other forgeries related to the

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period of the Early Church, the first six, seven eighth centuries.

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George has continued that work. He's busted butt and he's

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back on the channel with me because there's a new

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book out. It's an uncut Mountain Press and of course

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the links to this book are below, and we're gonna

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get deep into it. We're gonna get the low down

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on it. It's George who rejoins me. Let's get into this. George,

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first of all, tell us a little bit about what

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drew you to studying the forgeries. It seems like there's

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not a lot of good material just on this sort

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of topic, and does your book go beyond that into

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other theological topic.

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Speaker 2: Sure. Yeah, thanks Jay for having me on. And yeah,

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what interested me is is really reading about the differences

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between the Roman Catholics and Orthodox and trying to trace

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back what caused all this, and and you know, coming

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across the this was maybe ten twelve years ago when

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I first got interested in the controversy and coming across

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these traditionalist Roman Catholics, you know, making their strong claims

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say no Orthodox are not in the church. And then

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you see, and I looked into a lot of the

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you know, these quotations that they would cite are a

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lot of times not reliable or historically we're not reliable documents.

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So there's some surprising you know things and history like

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Aquinas being so reliant upon forgeries and by the time

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of the Sism in ten fifty four, the forgeries then

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and then in the time of Saint Photius. So these

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stood out to me, so I wanted to compile them.

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And it's not just forgeries, but also other differences and

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historical changes from the first millennium. So that's the scope of.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I know that when we first talked about this,

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one of the subjects that came up was there were

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a couple of the ones that we discussed that were

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kind of iffy. We weren't sure whether they were forgeries

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that were used or you know, maybe something from cannons

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of Nicea. I think was one that came up that

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was a little we were a little iffy on do

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you want to give a little more insight on that,

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because I'm sure you've done a lot more research.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, and it is true I have. Yeah, so there's

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been like PDF copies floating around the internet of the book.

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But I did get some criticism from Roman Catholic academics.

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And yeah, some of the items I said were forgeries

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were maybe our only documents of doubtful authenticity, so they're

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may be not reliable, but those tended to be more

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of the rather less important items, so it's good to

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be kind of fair.

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Speaker 1: And yeah, they weren't the major major issues.

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Speaker 2: Yes, yeah, I think there's one where in Saint Ambrose

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there was there's basically a textual variant in the manuscript

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where some manuscripts say he who has not the the

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faith of Peter is not in the church. Another variant

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said he's not the see of Peter's not in the church.

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I forgot the exact quote, but that the gist of

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it is in Latin. It's only a single letter said

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them versus feed them, and it's with the long ass

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I guess two letters. Then it's they're very similar, and yeah,

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there's just different manuscripts. So sometimes, yeah, it's not accurate

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to say it is a forgery. It's just maybe it's

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good to still point it out that Roman Catholic shouldn't

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use a quote like that in apologetics if it's uncertain.

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Speaker 1: Yeah. But yeah, well, let's get back to the big picture,

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because I think a lot of people you know, who

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listen regularly, they probably don't recall that stream. I'll go

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ahead link it below because it was a good conversation

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that we had. Let's rewind and do some of that material,

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because I know that a lot of people may not

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be familiar with this subject and why the papal forgeries

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and the other forgeries during this time period were so

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or so crucial. For one for I would argue, I'm

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sure you would agree partly for the development of the papacy,

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So would you agree with that? Maybe you don't, Maybe

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you think that's not true. Seems to me like some

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of these claims, you know, the Samakian forgeries, things like this,

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obviously domination of Constantin probably the most famous one. It

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seems like they do they did contribute to the grandiosity

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of what the papacy developed into right.

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Speaker 2: And I know that's also a point of debate of

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how influential were the forgeries. I tried to focus simply

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on cataloging them, but yeah, I think it it is

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rather remarkable that you could say these three great moments

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in church history. You have three main forgeries. So to

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review the pseudo is adoring the Credles that came up

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right at the time of the dispute between Saint Photius

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and Pope Nicholas the First of Rome, that was in

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the eight hundreds. And I mean these pseudos adoring the Creidels,

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they've been much written about. Roman Catholics say, oh, they

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didn't change anything, They just reflected how the early Church was.

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But they were a really impactful forgery. They've were cited

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for about I think about seven hundred years. They weren't

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really rejected until the fifteen hundreds. And then secondly, yeah,

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the donation of Constantine that was quoted by Pope Leo

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the ninth to Patriarch Michael Cerularius right on the eve

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of the system in ten fifty four, and that's you know,

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it has you know, Emperor Constantine saying the pope is

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speaks very highly of the Pope. And then thirdly we

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have Thomas Aquinas in his against the Errors of the

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Greeks Contra Auroras gray Korum. He it's it's almost sad

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how dependent he is on forgeries. It's it's like eighty

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percent plus just quotations of forgeries. I mean, he was misled.

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It's not he didn't do the forgeries himself, but it's

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his book was like the quote mind for about five

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hundred years from Yeah.

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Speaker 1: Exactly, that's why this matters. Was against airs of the Greeks.

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And do we know where those actually originated from? These

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ones that he was so you know that he was

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using so much.

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Speaker 2: Yes, yeah, that was traced recently too, from the latest scholarship.

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It was a certain bishop who had been a missionary

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in the East. I think, if I remember right, Nicholas

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of Katron. He wrote the Libellus, which he sent to

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the pope, and then that was Pope Urban the fourth.

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He sent it to a Quinas, and the Quinas used

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that work. So he this guy Nicholas of Cotrone was

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the said, is apparently the origin of the sources?

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Speaker 1: Okay, and then you said, so Pseudo isidor Indecruidles is

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a key one. And then we had a donation of Constantine.

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Tell us some about that the breakdown of that, although again,

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you know, I know you're this is old hat for you.

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But probably a lot of the people in the audience

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maybe they're Protestant, maybe they're Catholic, they're looking at the orthodoxy,

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they're not familiar even with this one.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, so I pulled it up here, we could quote

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that here. Yeah, the donation of Constantine, so it was forged.

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It seems to be around the year seven fifty to

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seven eighty. And then there's yeah, I couldn't quote some

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parts of it where it says, true, Blessed Peter is

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seen to have been constituted vicar of the Son of

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God on earth. So the pontiffs, who are the representatives

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of that same chief of the Apostles, should obtain from

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us in our empire the power of a supremacy greater

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than the clemency of our earthly imperial serenity is seen

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to have needed to it. So that's Emperor Constantine allegedly

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giving a grant or donation to Peter and his successors

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in Rome. And it says and we Ordain and decreed

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that he shall have the supremacy as well over the

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four principal seats Alexandria, Antioch, Jerusalem, and Constantinople, as also

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over all the churches of God and the whole earth.

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And it keeps going on in these very strong claims

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for the papacy, and it was cited and referred to

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as valid by about ten popes.

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Speaker 1: And yeah, I was gonna say, when's the first time

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the papacy begins to cite this one to bolster their claims.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, what is surprising is and the Catholic Encyclopedia admits this.

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It's a rather startling fact that and I quote this here. Yeah,

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this is from the Catholic Encyclopedia. It says the first

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pope who used it in an official act and relied

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upon was Leo the ninth in a letter of ten

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fifty four to Michael Cerularius, Patriarch of Constantinople. He cites

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the nation to show that the Holy See possessed in

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an earthly and heavenly imperium and so on. So it

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is almost amazing that, you know, they admit it was

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used for the first time with great effect at the

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right at that ten point fifty four, you know, crucial

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date and it and it was used by many later canonists.

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There's even an entire book actually just on artwork in

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Italy that shows depicts the donation happening from Emperor.

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Speaker 1: It's like I want to say, Yeah, I want to say,

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when we were in Italy, we were somewhere and we

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saw a freeze or a relief or something that showed

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one of the versions of this.

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Speaker 2: I recalled up, Yeah, it is. It is startling I

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I'm pulling up Yeah. And this is from a dissertation

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by an art student. I said. The over arching argument

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of this dissertation is that in the early modern period,

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the papacy utilized the vision means both to defend and

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to reaffirm the authenticity of the donation. And Yeah, this

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dissertation you can find it for free online. It's just

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called Political Art of the Papacy and it's it just

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gives lots of pictures of those, yeah, of the donation.

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Speaker 1: One area I've been hitting on pretty hard in terms

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of apologetics is the fact of the papacy becoming more

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and more of a geopolitical world power, and that that

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contradicts earlier canons that were expected to be followed by

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all the clergy, including the Bishop of Rome. Did the

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donation of Constantine also contribute to this worldly geopolitical power

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of the papacy.

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Speaker 2: I think it did, And and there was, you know,

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some hesitation to receive the donation because it seemed to

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almost say that the power of the papacy was contingent

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upon the emperor's bequeathing of that power. So there had

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been some hesitation to use the donation, and it wasn't

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really rejected until the mid fourteen hundreds. Lorenzo Valla he

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famously wrote an argument against the donation, but it was

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still referenced after that. As for the power of the papacy,

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I think it was. I mean it was cited for getting,

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I believe, for claiming the papal power in the British Isles,

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and yeah, so that it did give, yeah, an impetus

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to that.

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Speaker 1: So it was used in a even a geopolitical way. Now,

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so we've got the pseudo Isidaurian, we've got donation of Constantine.

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Which of these two was probably the most used or cited.

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You think that was since the second one was viewed

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with some suspicion due to it being so overly reliant

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on the emperor. What the Isidorian de cretles more useful

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to the papal claims?

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Speaker 2: Yes, I would I would say that definitely does. Yeah.

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Istorian decretals they are more influential, especially because they they

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pretend to quote popes from the first three centuries and

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those popes have no there's no writings available from those times,

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and it has things saying that the Yeah, basically with

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the more modern people claims. So it definitely was more influential,

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I would say than the donation the nation. Yeah. I

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found the reference. He a Bishop John of Salisbury in

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the eleven hundreds. He does quote the donation of Constantine

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in support of Pope Hadrian the fourth conferring upon King

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Henry the second dominion over the island of Ireland.

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Speaker 1: So the papacy gives even temporal power.

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Speaker 2: Yes, and you know the the Catholics didn't like that

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later when the British throne tried to claim control over Oh.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, exactly. Okay, So what's the third of the

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of the of the key forgeries?

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Speaker 2: Yeah, the next major one would be that basically that

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quote mine. You could say that Thomas Aquinas used in

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against the errors of the Greeks, and the title of

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my book is a bit of a it is inspired

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by that, so errors of the Latins against that. But yes,

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Aquinas did. His works were cited for hundreds of years,

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and it has among the strongest claims. Like basically his

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quotations were more directly against the Orthodox development of the

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Council of Florence, so that it's main issues he addresses

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were the filioque, the papacy, purgatory, and leavened bread. So

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those four issues were the topics discussed at that time.

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And it quotes like Saint Cyril with very strong claims

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for the papacy and uh. And for a long time

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Roman Catholics kept using them. It wasn't really until the

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well into the seventeen hundreds that they weren't used anymore.

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It was like five hundred years of continued use by

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Roman Catholics, so that I think might be the number

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one most like powerful. It was used even by yeah,

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against Dostheus, the Bishop of Patriarch of Jerusalem. Roman Catholics

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did make a lot of quotations against it in controversy

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to say, hey, we have the Church fathers on our side,

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so that that is Yeah, that was a big.

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Speaker 1: And I want to say too, it seems like maybe

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even as late as the Council of Trent, I think

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in the Catechism of Trent, doesn't it still cite some

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of the forged documents, is the Simochian forgeries, that there's

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something that's still cited.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, I do have a chapter on that. In

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the Catechism of the Council of Trent. They do cite

248
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the pseudo is adoring is Adoring?

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Speaker 1: Okay, I know it was one of the two good.

250
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Speaker 2: Yeah, and a few other inauthentic documents, but it yeah,

251
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it is surprising. But they're not all for the papacy

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somewhere for.

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Speaker 1: Other reasons, yeah yeah, other.

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Speaker 2: Items like confirmation and other sacraments. But there is one

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where they have a pope cided for the papacy. But yeah,

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I think how many did I? I counted eleven different

257
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times they cited.

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Speaker 1: Oh in the category eleven times?

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Speaker 2: Yeah, oh nice, along with some other in authentic works,

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like in authentic clitations of Saint Augustine and of Saint Cyril.

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Speaker 1: So yeah, now here's a question. I hear this a

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lot from Roman Catholics when this subject comes up, and

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I'm curious what you would say to this. Not that

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I think this is a good argument, but it's something

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that they always bring up. Oh, but you Byzantines, They

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also at times cited forgeries. What would you say to that.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, and it is something that you hear. I don't

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think it's definitely to knowwhere near the degree as in

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the Latin East. I mean, from my understanding, there's I know,

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you often come across that in controversy saying, oh, the

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Greeks are prone to forge documents, and there's really very

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few examples. I never found something too significant. I mean

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I came across a few in my readings. Sometimes it's

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as a result of being less misled by the Roman Catholics,

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Like sometimes the Orthox did quote the donation of Constantine.

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They thought it was an authentic document, but they said

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as that the pope was a hair ticket no longer

278
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applied to the pope. But yeah, I really haven't met

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with any serious examples of Orthodox using forgeries against the

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Roman Catholics.

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Speaker 1: What do you make of the argument that many of

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00:17:06,960 --> 00:17:09,759
us have made for a long time, it's gone around.

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I want to know if you still think this holds

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up as a strong argument, which is, look, if the

285
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papacy has the goods, why do they need all these

286
00:17:18,119 --> 00:17:21,599
forged documents? Do you think that's still a good argument

287
00:17:21,720 --> 00:17:26,400
or do you think that being charitable and nuanced, maybe

288
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the papacy itself was duped into believing some of these

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00:17:29,799 --> 00:17:33,640
documents by some clever forger. But that also kind of

290
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begs the question of like, well, where was the Holy

291
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Spirit's discernment in guiding the papacy to not know these were.

292
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Speaker 2: Forty Yeah, now I do prefer taking a more charitable

293
00:17:43,079 --> 00:17:46,759
view of this. Maybe that's something in which I've more

294
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moderated my view since I first started the researching the controversy.

295
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It is tough yet to determine the good faith of

296
00:17:57,000 --> 00:18:01,559
historical figures. It's it is tough because, yeah, with the

297
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pseudos during the credles, it's it's tough to say Saint,

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I mean Pope Nicholas of Rome, who is considered a

299
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saint by Roman Catholics, it's difficult to believe that he

300
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really thought these documents were authentic because the archives of

301
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Rome were I mean well known to have lots of

302
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ancient documents he should have known that these people pretending

303
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to sit in the throne of Saint Peter were not

304
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actually real popes, and their records they're not authentic documents.

305
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But yeah, I would give a more charitable opinion a

306
00:18:37,599 --> 00:18:40,200
lot of times they were deceived. I know some have

307
00:18:40,279 --> 00:18:44,960
accused the Quinnas of doing the forgeries, some partisans did,

308
00:18:45,000 --> 00:18:47,319
but he, yeah, he wasn't. He was deceived.

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Speaker 1: And yeah, and one reason I think that you could

310
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argue that is that I remember when I bought a

311
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pretty expensive set years by, which was a Quinas commentary

312
00:19:00,799 --> 00:19:04,119
on the Gospels. I noticed as I was reading through it,

313
00:19:05,599 --> 00:19:08,079
I didn't read all four volumes or six volumes, that

314
00:19:08,240 --> 00:19:10,519
I read two or three volumes of it. I remember

315
00:19:10,559 --> 00:19:14,119
noticing how many times when he would cite Patricia quotations,

316
00:19:14,240 --> 00:19:19,559
it was like pseudo crystalstom, pseudo athanacious. So whoever was

317
00:19:19,720 --> 00:19:24,960
editing the you know, Katina Aurea, you know, was basically

318
00:19:25,000 --> 00:19:30,240
pointing out that there's a significant, very significant usage of

319
00:19:30,400 --> 00:19:35,640
pseudo crystalstom by Aquinas, which means that I being malicious

320
00:19:35,680 --> 00:19:39,319
like it wouldn't There's not really a reason for him

321
00:19:39,359 --> 00:19:43,240
to maliciously use a whole bunch of Ford's quotes for

322
00:19:43,400 --> 00:19:44,920
just commentaries on the Gospel.

323
00:19:45,720 --> 00:19:49,680
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, I mean Roman Catholic scholars. Yeah, those editors

324
00:19:49,720 --> 00:19:53,119
do admit that they'll give the footnotes and they love them.

325
00:19:53,119 --> 00:19:56,599
Are very smart academics, and they've that's who I relied

326
00:19:56,680 --> 00:20:00,039
upon most of the time. Is there looking through and

327
00:20:00,079 --> 00:20:02,039
they're the ones saying, Okay, this is not found in

328
00:20:02,079 --> 00:20:05,880
the original writings, this is missing, or it's a corruption

329
00:20:05,960 --> 00:20:10,039
of the original text. There's been hints that Roman Catholics

330
00:20:10,079 --> 00:20:14,279
have said that Aquinas realized that those against the heirs

331
00:20:14,279 --> 00:20:18,240
of the Greeks those quotations were not authentic, because he

332
00:20:18,279 --> 00:20:21,599
didn't use them too much later. But it's said that

333
00:20:21,799 --> 00:20:24,079
he was carrying that book on the way to the

334
00:20:24,119 --> 00:20:28,839
Council of Lyons when he died. He died carrying that

335
00:20:28,920 --> 00:20:33,240
book against the errors of the Greeks, so it seemed

336
00:20:33,240 --> 00:20:36,240
like he would be He was prepared to reduce them

337
00:20:36,240 --> 00:20:41,759
in controversy against the Orthodox. So that's why I don't

338
00:20:41,759 --> 00:20:45,400
think he ever realized they were inauthentic, and his immediate

339
00:20:45,440 --> 00:20:46,920
successors used them as well.

340
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Speaker 1: Now one question, not to play devil's advocate, but just

341
00:20:53,319 --> 00:21:01,119
honest question, because I remember reading Hoffman's book Renaissance Occult

342
00:21:01,200 --> 00:21:03,839
Renaissance Church of Rome, which is a pretty good book.

343
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There's areas where I disagree, but he he has some

344
00:21:08,759 --> 00:21:11,680
not so positive things to say about Lorenzo Vola. Not

345
00:21:11,759 --> 00:21:14,400
that that really matters, because Lorenzo Balla could be a

346
00:21:15,559 --> 00:21:17,839
it could be a sust character and still be correct about,

347
00:21:18,039 --> 00:21:21,160
you know, critiquing some of these documents. Is there any

348
00:21:21,160 --> 00:21:24,680
degree to which we have to be careful with these

349
00:21:24,720 --> 00:21:29,440
sort of Renaissance figures in this in this matter because

350
00:21:29,880 --> 00:21:32,160
I think, for example, Lorenzo Valla, isn't he one of

351
00:21:32,200 --> 00:21:35,400
the key characters arguing that Dionysius is not authentic? And

352
00:21:35,640 --> 00:21:38,920
I think as Orthodox we want to probably not say

353
00:21:38,920 --> 00:21:42,079
that it's all inauthentic with Dionysius.

354
00:21:42,359 --> 00:21:45,480
Speaker 2: Right, And that is the difficulty with forgeries in general.

355
00:21:45,640 --> 00:21:51,160
Is it's important, Yeah, to understand the whole context, like heyes,

356
00:21:51,920 --> 00:21:54,920
same with dealing with the question of other inauthentic writings.

357
00:21:55,000 --> 00:21:58,960
It is a challenge with all history, the authenticity of documents.

358
00:21:58,960 --> 00:22:00,680
And yeah, maybe it isn't too far to say why

359
00:22:00,680 --> 00:22:04,759
would they have invented these documents if there wasn't evidence beforehand?

360
00:22:04,920 --> 00:22:10,279
I think it applies to some degree, but they yeah,

361
00:22:10,319 --> 00:22:16,680
because there are other challenges with those documents in the Yeah,

362
00:22:16,799 --> 00:22:18,480
I lost track of your question.

363
00:22:18,359 --> 00:22:20,200
Speaker 1: That I guess I was saying, is what do we

364
00:22:20,240 --> 00:22:23,000
think about somebody like Lorenzo Balla? Is it just that not?

365
00:22:23,039 --> 00:22:25,079
It doesn't fit in the good guy bad guy category,

366
00:22:25,240 --> 00:22:27,640
like you know, it's just a case by case basis

367
00:22:27,680 --> 00:22:29,680
of you know, it just depends.

368
00:22:30,039 --> 00:22:33,119
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, I don't know too much about him besides

369
00:22:33,160 --> 00:22:35,359
the fact that he's credited with being the first to

370
00:22:35,960 --> 00:22:40,519
prove the forgery with certainty of the donation of Constantine.

371
00:22:41,640 --> 00:22:43,160
Speaker 1: But the only reason I'm bringing up is I think

372
00:22:43,160 --> 00:22:45,960
he's also one of the first to challenge the dynasty

373
00:22:46,000 --> 00:22:46,559
and corpus.

374
00:22:47,400 --> 00:22:51,319
Speaker 2: Yes, yeah, that is a yeah, I know that might

375
00:22:51,319 --> 00:22:56,160
be one of the major like open questions in terms

376
00:22:56,160 --> 00:22:59,240
of like what, yeah, the authenticity of churchild I think

377
00:22:59,240 --> 00:23:02,759
he might be like the most like the one of

378
00:23:02,759 --> 00:23:06,400
which there's the most doubt, even among the more like

379
00:23:06,640 --> 00:23:13,519
conservative extra so, but there's been defenses of the originality

380
00:23:13,559 --> 00:23:14,160
of yeah.

381
00:23:14,200 --> 00:23:16,720
Speaker 1: Yeah, No, I'm not defending Valla. I'm just saying, like,

382
00:23:17,039 --> 00:23:20,799
you know, I'm anticipating Catholic objections and a Catholic being like, oh, well,

383
00:23:21,359 --> 00:23:24,480
you know, you guys like Dionysius areopagite and you think

384
00:23:24,480 --> 00:23:27,119
he's a saint and so, but you're gonna trust Lorenzo

385
00:23:27,200 --> 00:23:29,319
Valla when he says that. But but I think that

386
00:23:29,920 --> 00:23:32,680
really doesn't even matter about Lorenzovol anymore, because as far

387
00:23:32,680 --> 00:23:36,480
as I'm aware, I mean, the typical Vatican attitude and

388
00:23:36,759 --> 00:23:40,599
scholarship pretty much admits all this stuff nowadays anyway, right.

389
00:23:40,799 --> 00:23:47,039
Speaker 2: Yes, those are admitted for those three major forgeries, and

390
00:23:47,559 --> 00:23:49,839
you know many others. I mean, it is very obvious

391
00:23:49,880 --> 00:23:52,839
the donation of Constantine is not by Emperor Constantines from

392
00:23:52,880 --> 00:23:55,480
the first century. It mentions many things that just the

393
00:23:55,599 --> 00:23:59,319
Latin words of things that didn't exist at that time.

394
00:23:59,319 --> 00:24:03,920
They reflect later centuries. There's no evidence of it earlier.

395
00:24:04,119 --> 00:24:06,799
So it's a very hard like clear proof. It's not

396
00:24:06,920 --> 00:24:11,160
like the the more you could say, like liberal academics

397
00:24:11,160 --> 00:24:14,839
putting doubt on let's say, certain books of the Bible.

398
00:24:15,200 --> 00:24:17,799
There's what they what those academics are doing are just

399
00:24:17,839 --> 00:24:21,400
really just casting doubt when there's uncertainty. So yeah, it

400
00:24:21,440 --> 00:24:24,720
is important to see like, yeah, what evidence there is for.

401
00:24:25,880 --> 00:24:29,440
Speaker 1: Yeah, this is different than they're being like, you know,

402
00:24:29,599 --> 00:24:33,960
not AUTOGRAPHA that Paul wrote, This is more like, no,

403
00:24:34,039 --> 00:24:38,319
we can definitively show that there's no way that Constantine,

404
00:24:39,039 --> 00:24:41,079
you know, wrote or used that language or spoke this

405
00:24:41,160 --> 00:24:43,759
way or what are some of the key indicators, for example,

406
00:24:43,839 --> 00:24:46,119
in the case of say the donation of Constantine, that

407
00:24:46,119 --> 00:24:48,039
are kind of like dead giveaways.

408
00:24:48,839 --> 00:24:53,160
Speaker 2: Yeah, one that says the mind though of the I

409
00:24:53,200 --> 00:24:57,039
know from a Koinas the when he quotes the delegation

410
00:24:57,200 --> 00:25:03,759
of crit to the Bulgarians from Saint John Chrisostom, it's

411
00:25:03,799 --> 00:25:08,200
that was rather anachronistic of Chris as talking is the

412
00:25:08,200 --> 00:25:11,960
Bulgarian delegation, because that that was not a kind of

413
00:25:12,759 --> 00:25:19,279
a political organization that existed in Chrissom's times. Yeah, that's

414
00:25:19,519 --> 00:25:22,920
one for the uh, it's for the donation itself.

415
00:25:23,799 --> 00:25:25,960
Speaker 1: So when Saint John Chrystosom wrote his letter to the

416
00:25:26,039 --> 00:25:29,680
US embassy, right, could we question it's authenticity?

417
00:25:31,119 --> 00:25:35,240
Speaker 2: Right? Yeah, for the donation, I think it's the there's

418
00:25:35,279 --> 00:25:39,160
the use of certain Latin words that reflected the later

419
00:25:39,519 --> 00:25:45,359
Roman administration. And off the top of my head, I'm

420
00:25:45,359 --> 00:25:48,279
trying to remember the other clear indications. It's really it's

421
00:25:48,319 --> 00:25:53,599
admitted though very clearly by Roman Catholics, it is authentic, inauthentic,

422
00:25:54,519 --> 00:25:58,480
and if they say it's like in disputed that it's false.

423
00:25:58,880 --> 00:26:03,720
And Dante famously mentions it where he says, there's a

424
00:26:03,720 --> 00:26:08,440
famous quote from his Inferno. He says Constantine of how

425
00:26:08,480 --> 00:26:12,240
much ill was caused not by conversion, but those rich

426
00:26:12,319 --> 00:26:15,880
domains that the first wealthy pope received of thee. So

427
00:26:16,680 --> 00:26:19,359
Dante thought it was real and lamented it because he

428
00:26:19,440 --> 00:26:20,519
felt this was bad for.

429
00:26:20,480 --> 00:26:21,799
Speaker 1: The papers, corrupting the paper.

430
00:26:21,839 --> 00:26:25,799
Speaker 2: So that's right, yes, and many people looked on it

431
00:26:25,880 --> 00:26:32,039
that way. As for the Yeah, the exact reasons why

432
00:26:32,079 --> 00:26:36,519
it's anachronistic, I'm not sure off the top of my head.

433
00:26:37,319 --> 00:26:41,200
Speaker 1: That's okay. I mean, so we've got the big three here,

434
00:26:42,000 --> 00:26:46,799
there's others. How many, roughly do you include in the book?

435
00:26:46,839 --> 00:26:48,880
Because I know that when we first did this podcast,

436
00:26:48,920 --> 00:26:51,559
you and I and Snack, we talked about somewhere in

437
00:26:51,599 --> 00:26:55,880
the ballpark of twenty twenty something twenty three or so. Yes,

438
00:26:56,039 --> 00:26:58,359
does the book include all of those or around that

439
00:26:58,400 --> 00:27:02,240
same number? Do you focus at chapter on specific forgeries

440
00:27:02,359 --> 00:27:04,720
or how is the book structured? And what are some

441
00:27:04,759 --> 00:27:06,640
of the other key forgeries we need to think about?

442
00:27:07,480 --> 00:27:11,559
Speaker 2: Yeah, there are actually far more, and and some I've

443
00:27:11,559 --> 00:27:15,519
provided more context, like where it was simply a textual variant,

444
00:27:16,039 --> 00:27:18,799
not certain if it's a forgery. Some are disputed, like

445
00:27:18,839 --> 00:27:21,880
you know, the Saint Cyprian's words. There's some that are

446
00:27:21,880 --> 00:27:25,519
more pro petrine in his unity of the church, some aren't,

447
00:27:25,599 --> 00:27:29,359
So it's a disputed point whether he wrote that. So

448
00:27:29,759 --> 00:27:33,200
I try to discuss those items with fairness and balance.

449
00:27:34,160 --> 00:27:37,559
But overall, yeah, I can look at the chapters, how

450
00:27:37,559 --> 00:27:41,440
many I group it in several parts forgeries of the

451
00:27:41,440 --> 00:27:45,160
greatest historic consequence. So that's where I mentioned the you

452
00:27:45,200 --> 00:27:47,799
know Ceo during the Creed big in there or is

453
00:27:47,799 --> 00:27:50,839
that the big three Greek contena? What else I add?

454
00:27:51,279 --> 00:27:54,799
I put the Samaki Simachian forgeries as the fourth I

455
00:27:54,839 --> 00:27:59,079
felt that was quite important as well, and as an

456
00:27:59,079 --> 00:28:02,039
early forgery, and that it contains a quote the Sea

457
00:28:02,079 --> 00:28:03,680
of Rome can be judged by no one.

458
00:28:04,400 --> 00:28:09,400
Speaker 1: Oh, that's that famous quote that pops up in Dictatus Pope.

459
00:28:10,279 --> 00:28:13,640
And then if I recall that's still in Roman Catholic

460
00:28:13,640 --> 00:28:14,680
canon law, I think.

461
00:28:15,799 --> 00:28:18,920
Speaker 2: Yeah, that did enter Roman Catholic canon law. I'm not

462
00:28:18,920 --> 00:28:22,680
sure if it's still there, but that was the most

463
00:28:22,720 --> 00:28:29,200
significant one let's see, so there's four there I can quickly.

464
00:28:29,240 --> 00:28:32,519
I think there's on the order of maybe around fifty

465
00:28:32,599 --> 00:28:36,319
or sixty. There's somewhere. I have a lot of collections

466
00:28:36,319 --> 00:28:42,839
of small manuscript corruptions, like regarding the Immaculate Conception on

467
00:28:42,920 --> 00:28:46,480
that I put together about let's say twenty eight.

468
00:28:46,799 --> 00:28:49,799
Speaker 1: Just to be clear, it is still in the Roman,

469
00:28:51,359 --> 00:28:55,799
the Roman canon law, even the modern nineteen eighty three

470
00:28:55,880 --> 00:29:00,440
canon law of John Paul. The second it's canon fourteen

471
00:29:00,480 --> 00:29:03,160
oh four. The first c is judged by No. One,

472
00:29:03,519 --> 00:29:08,359
which is a variation of this yeah. Yeah, and that

473
00:29:08,440 --> 00:29:11,680
comes from old originally the Simakian forgeries, correct.

474
00:29:13,680 --> 00:29:16,319
Speaker 2: I believe that's the origin of that. Now they could

475
00:29:16,319 --> 00:29:18,759
say that that principle follows well.

476
00:29:18,559 --> 00:29:20,759
Speaker 1: As far as we know, the phrase is yeah. I

477
00:29:20,759 --> 00:29:22,480
know they're going to say no, it goes back to Peter.

478
00:29:22,799 --> 00:29:27,119
But the phrase, as far as we know, patristically speaking,

479
00:29:27,279 --> 00:29:33,559
is derived you're arguing from the Samakian forgery.

480
00:29:33,279 --> 00:29:38,240
Speaker 2: Right, yes, And I think that follows with that question

481
00:29:38,359 --> 00:29:41,279
of how impactful were the forgeries. Well before they could

482
00:29:41,359 --> 00:29:45,119
quote these very direct statements Saint cypri Or, I mean St.

483
00:29:45,119 --> 00:29:51,279
Cyril really forcefully in favor of papal supremacy, but with

484
00:29:51,480 --> 00:29:55,279
those being proven to be false, they they rely upon

485
00:29:55,359 --> 00:29:58,559
some like they make arguments that require a bit more

486
00:29:58,680 --> 00:30:04,200
sort of logical deduction then and our more open to interpretation.

487
00:30:06,319 --> 00:30:09,359
So they used to have a lot more stronger, clearer claims,

488
00:30:09,359 --> 00:30:12,039
and that's what the forgeries helped support. So they kind

489
00:30:12,039 --> 00:30:14,119
of provided that context for interpretation.

490
00:30:14,599 --> 00:30:16,920
Speaker 1: Oh interesting, okay, So like in the case let me

491
00:30:16,920 --> 00:30:18,200
ask you this question. In the case of like some

492
00:30:18,240 --> 00:30:21,839
of the patristic quotation forgeries, like this quote out of

493
00:30:21,920 --> 00:30:26,079
Jerome or this quote out of you know, Cyril or whoever,

494
00:30:27,440 --> 00:30:32,000
were these typically just sort of out of context quote

495
00:30:32,039 --> 00:30:35,799
mind fake quotes or their actual like fake works of

496
00:30:35,960 --> 00:30:38,480
Saint Cyril. That's that's like there's a whole treatise of

497
00:30:38,480 --> 00:30:39,440
Saint Cyril that's fake.

498
00:30:41,519 --> 00:30:44,799
Speaker 2: Oh well, yeah, it was fake quotes. Yeah. In the

499
00:30:44,839 --> 00:30:49,119
case of Aquinas citing Cyril, they thought for a while

500
00:30:49,279 --> 00:30:52,359
Roman Catholics had hoped some document would come up showing

501
00:30:52,400 --> 00:30:56,359
this to be an authentic work, but nothing came to

502
00:30:56,440 --> 00:31:00,559
light from the latest research, and it's it's simply those

503
00:31:00,559 --> 00:31:02,559
are just that fake collections.

504
00:31:02,640 --> 00:31:05,680
Speaker 1: So now when you mentioned Cyril, Saint Cyril's on the unity.

505
00:31:06,000 --> 00:31:09,039
I've seeing Saint Cyprian's on the Unity of Christ in

506
00:31:09,079 --> 00:31:14,000
the Church. Was that an added quote to that classic work?

507
00:31:14,079 --> 00:31:15,079
Is that what we're saying.

508
00:31:16,480 --> 00:31:19,799
Speaker 2: For Cyprian? That's the one where there I hesitate for

509
00:31:19,880 --> 00:31:22,039
making a conclusion on that. I would just say there's

510
00:31:22,079 --> 00:31:26,079
textual variations, because there's some texts that have more Petraine,

511
00:31:26,640 --> 00:31:30,480
more like pro I've heard those content, and most scholars

512
00:31:30,519 --> 00:31:33,119
generally hold the view that Syprian was the author of

513
00:31:33,200 --> 00:31:36,279
both versions. That's what has thought. Now they don't know

514
00:31:36,319 --> 00:31:39,960
which version was first. Interesting some say he changed what

515
00:31:40,039 --> 00:31:43,279
he wrote in response to his interactions with Rome.

516
00:31:43,319 --> 00:31:45,240
Speaker 1: The Saint Stephen controversy.

517
00:31:46,000 --> 00:31:51,440
Speaker 2: Yes, yeah, that rebaptism controversy. So it's a difficult question.

518
00:31:51,720 --> 00:31:54,960
I think I believe they're not authentic works, but many

519
00:31:54,960 --> 00:31:59,319
people interpret them in a non like pro papacy way.

520
00:31:59,480 --> 00:32:02,480
Speaker 1: They're just yeah, they could just be yea Peter is

521
00:32:02,519 --> 00:32:06,359
all the bishops, et cetera. Okay, so we got the

522
00:32:06,359 --> 00:32:10,720
Samakian forgeries. Is there anything else in those that's really

523
00:32:10,759 --> 00:32:13,160
important other than the sort of the first he's judged

524
00:32:13,200 --> 00:32:15,000
by no one. Is there more in there that we

525
00:32:15,039 --> 00:32:16,079
need to talk about.

526
00:32:16,960 --> 00:32:21,039
Speaker 2: It that one does contain that does misrepresent the Council

527
00:32:21,039 --> 00:32:25,359
of Nicea and makes it appear as if the Pope

528
00:32:25,440 --> 00:32:32,920
Sylvester and some Roman bishops had approved the acts. And

529
00:32:33,279 --> 00:32:36,599
it does, yeah, lead to more misrepresentation.

530
00:32:36,839 --> 00:32:40,960
Speaker 1: So basically like a retroactive revision of history that Nicea

531
00:32:41,119 --> 00:32:43,079
wasn't Nicea until the Pope made it Nicia.

532
00:32:44,119 --> 00:32:47,319
Speaker 2: Yes, and okay, and I have a quote here, yeah,

533
00:32:47,359 --> 00:32:52,079
from James moynihan. He was a Roman Catholic bishop and scholar.

534
00:32:52,519 --> 00:32:55,319
He says, quote, Thus, it was that the doctrine of

535
00:32:55,359 --> 00:32:59,920
the pope's personal immunity from judgment spread rapidly throughout Western Europe.

536
00:33:00,599 --> 00:33:05,200
That's that's what he says in yeah book he published

537
00:33:05,920 --> 00:33:11,880
in nineteen sixty one. He that's that's in relation to

538
00:33:11,920 --> 00:33:14,400
the pope cannot be judged by any right. So he

539
00:33:14,480 --> 00:33:17,839
said that that caused it to be rapidly spread from

540
00:33:17,880 --> 00:33:20,839
those from those documents.

541
00:33:20,920 --> 00:33:25,400
Speaker 1: Right, So what is there more in some Ackian forgeres

542
00:33:25,519 --> 00:33:28,000
or what's the what's the number five on the top

543
00:33:28,000 --> 00:33:28,680
ten forgeries?

544
00:33:30,759 --> 00:33:34,599
Speaker 2: Let's see, I had I had included four as the

545
00:33:34,640 --> 00:33:39,319
top as the most soportant, but I could there are

546
00:33:39,359 --> 00:33:43,759
a lot more that are more incidental and.

547
00:33:43,799 --> 00:33:46,480
Speaker 1: What about the Galatian de credles is that's that's a

548
00:33:46,480 --> 00:33:47,200
well known one.

549
00:33:49,200 --> 00:33:53,440
Speaker 2: Galician decreas is that from Pope Gelasius Galatious.

550
00:33:54,000 --> 00:33:55,799
Speaker 1: However, how.

551
00:33:57,400 --> 00:34:00,599
Speaker 2: Oh, that's right, Okay, So I did review. There are

552
00:34:01,200 --> 00:34:04,319
and there's a challenge with all of the But that's

553
00:34:04,319 --> 00:34:06,559
what Roman Catholic told me in response when I mentioned

554
00:34:06,599 --> 00:34:14,199
these false documents of Pope Leo and Gelasius. They he said, oh,

555
00:34:14,239 --> 00:34:16,119
there's you know, the difficulty with a lot of the

556
00:34:16,199 --> 00:34:21,079
church fathers finding what's authentic what's not. And but it's

557
00:34:21,280 --> 00:34:25,480
pretty I consider it more significant when it affects documents

558
00:34:25,480 --> 00:34:28,079
from the bishops or popes, especially when they tend to

559
00:34:28,119 --> 00:34:33,039
have more of the pro papacy content. So there are

560
00:34:33,880 --> 00:34:36,920
let's see my notes. Yeah, so I have the chapter

561
00:34:37,000 --> 00:34:39,320
on sparious works of Pope Leo the First and Jelasius.

562
00:34:39,360 --> 00:34:45,039
So Roman Catholic editors do mention that that there are

563
00:34:45,079 --> 00:34:49,239
several works from them that are not authentic, including yeah,

564
00:34:49,280 --> 00:34:53,800
a tractatus to a presentation of the primacy of the

565
00:34:53,840 --> 00:34:57,679
Holy See. It's not the work of Jelasius. That's a

566
00:34:57,760 --> 00:35:04,360
Roman Catholic Monseigneur Elysius Zeigler wrote that, So, yeah, I

567
00:35:04,400 --> 00:35:08,519
love of them, tend to have more of these mistakes,

568
00:35:08,519 --> 00:35:13,960
and sometimes there's different versions of these letters. Let me see, Okay,

569
00:35:14,000 --> 00:35:16,559
So out of forty nine letters the cridles and tracts

570
00:35:16,599 --> 00:35:21,920
attribute to Glesius, nine are thought inauthentic. So that's what

571
00:35:22,000 --> 00:35:23,320
I have for my notes.

572
00:35:23,400 --> 00:35:28,320
Speaker 1: So basically there's a few dozen and nine are considered

573
00:35:28,639 --> 00:35:29,800
fake at this stage.

574
00:35:30,880 --> 00:35:34,920
Speaker 2: Yeah, and then for letters of Leo's collection, there's one

575
00:35:35,000 --> 00:35:37,719
hundred and seventy three letters in Popolio, the first collection.

576
00:35:38,079 --> 00:35:41,199
Out of these, thirteen are thought spurious and nine are

577
00:35:41,239 --> 00:35:42,199
considered suspect.

578
00:35:42,960 --> 00:35:46,679
Speaker 1: And I didn't even think about like papal letters. That's

579
00:35:46,719 --> 00:35:48,079
another whole layer of this.

580
00:35:49,559 --> 00:35:52,880
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's a challenge because these letter collections, I mean

581
00:35:53,239 --> 00:35:57,360
sometimes I wonder just how far, you know, the corruption went,

582
00:35:57,400 --> 00:36:00,960
because many times were reliant upon many scripts of later

583
00:36:01,039 --> 00:36:05,440
centuries and these collections, and sometimes the authors of those

584
00:36:05,440 --> 00:36:11,039
were not reliable and even have some Roman Catholic I mean,

585
00:36:11,079 --> 00:36:13,280
there's the whole idea of is it okay to make

586
00:36:13,360 --> 00:36:18,360
forgeries if it's in defense of the faith, that there's

587
00:36:18,440 --> 00:36:23,119
some kind of discussion if that was I mean, it's

588
00:36:23,239 --> 00:36:27,360
almost an unsaid thing in the Middle Ages that seems

589
00:36:27,400 --> 00:36:31,840
to come up that certain people thought it was okay,

590
00:36:32,559 --> 00:36:34,960
And there's many there are many small forgeries like that

591
00:36:35,000 --> 00:36:38,639
a lot of times though, there's miscellaneous forgeries concerning different

592
00:36:39,639 --> 00:36:45,719
privileges of abbys and monasteries and different small things like

593
00:36:45,800 --> 00:36:51,320
that that were used to gain influence. There's forged indulgences

594
00:36:51,400 --> 00:36:56,719
and things like that. So there's yeah, it wasn't and say,

595
00:36:56,719 --> 00:37:00,679
oh yeah, same in England with the question over which

596
00:37:00,719 --> 00:37:04,039
sea was supreme, was it Canterbury or York. So there

597
00:37:04,079 --> 00:37:06,880
were there's something called the Canterbury forgeries. Now it doesn't

598
00:37:06,920 --> 00:37:11,039
affect orthodoxy, but but there's a lot of rumors that

599
00:37:11,119 --> 00:37:16,599
spread around with different mistakes, and yeah, there's a lot

600
00:37:16,679 --> 00:37:19,000
of these. Yeah. Last time I mentioned the Nag's head fable.

601
00:37:19,119 --> 00:37:22,199
It Roman Catholics made this up saying that these Anglican

602
00:37:22,400 --> 00:37:25,719
bishops were ordained in the tavern with some rather maybe

603
00:37:25,719 --> 00:37:29,320
indecent practices, but there's no evidence of that. But that

604
00:37:29,400 --> 00:37:32,559
still was used from the early sixteen hundreds to the

605
00:37:32,599 --> 00:37:36,159
early eighteen hundreds, so they used that against room. Catholics

606
00:37:36,800 --> 00:37:40,639
mentioned that against Anglicans, and it wasn't really abandoned till

607
00:37:40,920 --> 00:37:45,119
the maybe first quarter of the eighteen hundreds. A lot

608
00:37:45,119 --> 00:37:52,400
of things like that, so they yeah.

609
00:37:50,840 --> 00:37:53,199
Speaker 1: Is are there? Are there? I remember one thing that

610
00:37:53,239 --> 00:37:58,039
came up that Roman Catholics often mentioned is the Arabic

611
00:37:58,199 --> 00:38:01,400
canons I think of Is it not of Nicea? Is

612
00:38:01,400 --> 00:38:03,559
that the deck? Did you go into that?

613
00:38:04,639 --> 00:38:06,480
Speaker 2: Yes, I do have a chapter on that. I am

614
00:38:06,960 --> 00:38:11,559
rather surprised that that there's a recent book that almost

615
00:38:11,599 --> 00:38:19,880
seems to defend them, by John Kolorafi and someone else.

616
00:38:20,440 --> 00:38:25,760
But they are obviously anachronistic, and I mean the Roman

617
00:38:25,760 --> 00:38:29,880
Catholic scholar and Bishop Heffala. He says that it is

618
00:38:29,920 --> 00:38:31,639
certain that these Arabic cannons are not the work of

619
00:38:31,679 --> 00:38:34,360
the Council of Nicea. Their contents evidently prove a much

620
00:38:34,400 --> 00:38:41,320
more recent origin. That's that's Bishop Heffalo and he he

621
00:38:41,519 --> 00:38:44,360
went in depth into these canons. There's no evidence that

622
00:38:44,400 --> 00:38:48,639
they existed. The only support is that sometimes there's different counts.

623
00:38:48,719 --> 00:38:51,400
Some people say there's a different number of canyons from Nicea,

624
00:38:51,519 --> 00:38:56,199
and different questions on Okay, there's some appendixes, appendices of

625
00:38:56,239 --> 00:39:03,000
these canons, and but they're obviously not original and there

626
00:39:03,039 --> 00:39:08,960
there they're centuries they come from centuries later. So it's yeah,

627
00:39:09,320 --> 00:39:15,639
they're highly of but they make very strong claims for the.

628
00:39:13,880 --> 00:39:17,400
Speaker 1: Yeah, well that's why they wanted to be authentic exactly,

629
00:39:18,400 --> 00:39:21,800
and that's why they're Yeah, they're they're a big, you know,

630
00:39:22,159 --> 00:39:26,760
hot button issue. So okay, what else? So we've got

631
00:39:27,320 --> 00:39:30,840
the big ones, You've got more chapters in the book.

632
00:39:30,840 --> 00:39:33,199
I'm sure beyond these big ones, what else is in there?

633
00:39:34,239 --> 00:39:40,440
Speaker 2: Yeah? Yeah, I can review. Yeah, one issue we had

634
00:39:40,599 --> 00:39:43,079
also mentioned last time, but I think it's good to

635
00:39:43,079 --> 00:39:45,480
go over it again because it's it's still startles me,

636
00:39:45,880 --> 00:39:51,400
like why Peter Damien didn't know the Council and the

637
00:39:51,800 --> 00:39:58,199
Creed of Nicea that he let me see what I'm

638
00:39:58,239 --> 00:40:08,960
pulling up his exact Oh okay, so he had mentioned that, Okay, yes,

639
00:40:09,079 --> 00:40:11,599
in the letter he wrote in the Creed of the

640
00:40:11,599 --> 00:40:14,599
Council of Nicea. Moreover, it says, we also believe in

641
00:40:14,639 --> 00:40:18,280
the Holy Spirit, who proceeds properly from the Father and

642
00:40:18,400 --> 00:40:20,880
goes on. So then he makes an argument from that

643
00:40:20,960 --> 00:40:24,519
word proceeds properly from the Father to say that the

644
00:40:24,559 --> 00:40:28,239
Holy Spirit can proceeds from the son as well. And

645
00:40:29,119 --> 00:40:32,719
this I was startling. I saw that he did not

646
00:40:33,679 --> 00:40:40,119
know that proper Creed of Nicea. And yes, and he

647
00:40:40,239 --> 00:40:47,280
makes some other inauthentic quotations as well.

648
00:40:48,280 --> 00:40:54,360
Speaker 1: So wait a minute, you're saying Peter Damien is even

649
00:40:54,400 --> 00:40:58,920
in his day, which is his years are for those

650
00:40:58,960 --> 00:41:01,920
who don't know, to one thousand seven to ten seventy two,

651
00:41:03,440 --> 00:41:08,519
that even in his day he was already utilizing an

652
00:41:08,559 --> 00:41:11,880
altered later creed that has the philioquy.

653
00:41:14,320 --> 00:41:16,800
Speaker 2: Well, he had aside the creed as saying the holy

654
00:41:16,840 --> 00:41:21,000
spirit proceeds properly from the Father. I don't I mean,

655
00:41:21,039 --> 00:41:25,519
the editors say this is from a pseudo Jerome, but

656
00:41:25,639 --> 00:41:28,320
although it's not that that's where the editors found.

657
00:41:28,400 --> 00:41:30,719
Speaker 1: So you're saying, we don't know exactly what was in

658
00:41:30,920 --> 00:41:31,960
Peter Damien's mind.

659
00:41:34,639 --> 00:41:36,960
Speaker 2: Yes, well, I mean he he thought the Creed of

660
00:41:37,039 --> 00:41:40,880
Nicea says the holy Spirit proceeds properly from the Father.

661
00:41:40,960 --> 00:41:45,840
But that added word properly, whereas the actual creed, uh,

662
00:41:46,039 --> 00:41:48,440
you know, the Nicene contentual Politan creed only says those

663
00:41:48,480 --> 00:41:52,679
spirit proceeds from the Father. So he uses that word

664
00:41:52,719 --> 00:41:53,480
proceeds properly.

665
00:41:53,480 --> 00:41:57,719
Speaker 1: For you, if you're saying that he thought it said properly, yes,

666
00:41:58,000 --> 00:41:58,960
Oh wow, Okay.

667
00:41:58,840 --> 00:42:04,320
Speaker 2: Yes, and he used that as an argument this word

668
00:42:04,360 --> 00:42:09,039
add the word properly to make a case that there's

669
00:42:09,360 --> 00:42:14,360
the filioque is true and from a mistake.

670
00:42:14,559 --> 00:42:18,039
Speaker 1: And this would have been you're saying, because he was

671
00:42:18,159 --> 00:42:22,440
quoting from something that pseudo jerome is that one.

672
00:42:23,400 --> 00:42:26,519
Speaker 2: We're not too sure what his sources are, which just

673
00:42:26,559 --> 00:42:30,719
seems to have been negligent in how he quoted. But yeah,

674
00:42:31,000 --> 00:42:34,679
he he does use a pseudo jerome, although there it's

675
00:42:34,760 --> 00:42:40,320
not said to be the Creed, it's I don't remember

676
00:42:40,360 --> 00:42:43,599
what it says there, but yeah, somehow that's the only

677
00:42:43,679 --> 00:42:47,519
reference that we know where he could have gotten that.

678
00:42:51,159 --> 00:42:54,159
So I yeah, that and there's some other ones as well,

679
00:42:54,239 --> 00:42:59,920
other in authentic documents such as or A lot of

680
00:42:59,840 --> 00:43:03,840
times I discussed different items. Sometimes it's outright forgeries. Sometimes

681
00:43:04,000 --> 00:43:08,400
there's false claims by Roman Catholics. Sometimes they accused Orthodox

682
00:43:08,440 --> 00:43:13,440
of forgeries that were not true or of slander.

683
00:43:13,840 --> 00:43:15,800
Speaker 1: Yeah, they just made up so that we're lying and

684
00:43:15,840 --> 00:43:17,360
making up forgeries that don't exist.

685
00:43:18,480 --> 00:43:21,199
Speaker 2: Yeah. Some some even blame the donation of Constantine on

686
00:43:21,320 --> 00:43:22,800
the Orthodox, which.

687
00:43:22,719 --> 00:43:26,440
Speaker 1: Oh, interesting, so like a psyop going on in false

688
00:43:26,480 --> 00:43:27,519
flag forgeries.

689
00:43:29,800 --> 00:43:33,159
Speaker 2: I don't I don't know what their intention was with that.

690
00:43:33,280 --> 00:43:38,559
And yeah, but there's some blamed Saint Focus for the

691
00:43:39,239 --> 00:43:45,880
that fraudulent claim of a pope paypests. Uh Joan, you

692
00:43:45,920 --> 00:43:47,079
know that story.

693
00:43:46,800 --> 00:43:48,639
Speaker 1: Yeah, Pope Jones, Yeah, woman pope.

694
00:43:50,079 --> 00:43:53,079
Speaker 2: It is strange. It was one of those fables that

695
00:43:53,280 --> 00:43:56,840
circulated in the Middle Ages, but there was no female pope, right, yeah,

696
00:43:57,199 --> 00:44:01,679
always fascinating, it's the fascinatings. And then Roman Catholics claim

697
00:44:01,719 --> 00:44:06,079
that Saint Potius invented that.

698
00:44:09,199 --> 00:44:16,679
Speaker 1: So we've got fake patristic quotes, false flag forgeries. It's

699
00:44:16,719 --> 00:44:18,239
a big book. And what else is in there that

700
00:44:18,280 --> 00:44:19,880
you got to have to there's more in there.

701
00:44:19,800 --> 00:44:23,039
Speaker 2: Right yeah, and yeah, it's not just about forgeries. So

702
00:44:23,079 --> 00:44:26,000
there's it's printed in two volumes, so the second volume

703
00:44:26,000 --> 00:44:28,840
mainly goes over the forgeries and the first volume goes

704
00:44:28,840 --> 00:44:35,280
over all these different changes and traditional differences between the

705
00:44:35,320 --> 00:44:39,000
East and West. Now, some are not critical items, and

706
00:44:39,239 --> 00:44:41,679
I've tried to take a balanced approach because there are

707
00:44:41,679 --> 00:44:45,360
some issues that were debated in the past that are

708
00:44:45,559 --> 00:44:48,119
maybe you know, they're not critical now. But the main

709
00:44:48,559 --> 00:44:53,119
audience is to defend Orthodox against the traditionalist Roman Catholics

710
00:44:53,280 --> 00:44:55,440
who are out there who make these strong claims that

711
00:44:55,440 --> 00:44:57,559
the Orthodox are not in the church. So yeah, I

712
00:44:57,599 --> 00:45:00,800
go over each of the sacraments and show innovations as

713
00:45:00,800 --> 00:45:04,800
well as different theological innovations. I could give a very

714
00:45:04,880 --> 00:45:08,440
high level view of that if you if you want.

715
00:45:08,440 --> 00:45:10,599
Speaker 1: Yeah, sure, go ahead, go ahead and argue whatever you'd

716
00:45:10,639 --> 00:45:11,079
like to target.

717
00:45:11,639 --> 00:45:17,320
Speaker 2: Yes, So for the sacraments. On baptism, the main issue

718
00:45:17,320 --> 00:45:20,280
I talked about is triple immersion. That that is the

719
00:45:21,960 --> 00:45:25,599
that is the traditional and the proper standard mode of baptism. Sure,

720
00:45:25,639 --> 00:45:28,639
and of course there are always exceptions. And from the beginning,

721
00:45:28,800 --> 00:45:34,400
everyone like I saw room Tafolks mentioning the dida K recently, Well, yes,

722
00:45:34,440 --> 00:45:38,599
that's said to be the option if as not the

723
00:45:38,639 --> 00:45:39,280
standard mode.

724
00:45:40,679 --> 00:45:42,719
Speaker 1: Yeah, if you have a hard time finding a big

725
00:45:42,760 --> 00:45:44,800
body of water, then this is yeah. And then but

726
00:45:44,840 --> 00:45:46,960
what people always want to make the exception the norm,

727
00:45:47,000 --> 00:45:47,800
which is just weird.

728
00:45:49,000 --> 00:45:54,800
Speaker 2: Exactly. You're right, there are standards and those should be upheld. Really,

729
00:45:54,880 --> 00:45:58,280
and I even quote Thomas Aquinas making quite a strong

730
00:45:58,440 --> 00:46:02,559
statement where he says trying immersion is universally used in baptism,

731
00:46:02,960 --> 00:46:07,920
and consequently anyone baptizing otherwise would sin gravely so he

732
00:46:07,960 --> 00:46:13,880
says that in the mid twelve hundreds, and it Yeah,

733
00:46:13,920 --> 00:46:17,920
it's rather one of the more stronger claims. But of

734
00:46:17,920 --> 00:46:22,199
course there's always understood that, Yeah, there's exceptions if you're martyr,

735
00:46:22,280 --> 00:46:26,519
baptized in prison or under confinement, extreme cold weather, or

736
00:46:26,519 --> 00:46:29,559
in the desert, or in danger of death or weakness

737
00:46:29,679 --> 00:46:35,039
or other urgent causes. That's the exceptions and everything. So

738
00:46:35,119 --> 00:46:37,960
I basically the idea with this chapter. I just found

739
00:46:37,960 --> 00:46:41,679
every one in the first six centuries who mentions triple

740
00:46:41,719 --> 00:46:45,800
immersion in baptism, and just it's it is a big

741
00:46:45,880 --> 00:46:49,679
quote mine the book. I try to, but I try

742
00:46:49,719 --> 00:46:52,480
to provide useful and valuable quotes well.

743
00:46:52,480 --> 00:46:58,360
Speaker 1: So it says the work is divided into five books, Innovations, Papacy, Forgeries, Independencies,

744
00:46:58,360 --> 00:47:03,360
and reading. I recommend reading this section here on innovations.

745
00:47:03,440 --> 00:47:07,239
Is this mainly like sacramental or is it all the

746
00:47:07,239 --> 00:47:08,920
papal theological innovations.

747
00:47:09,920 --> 00:47:13,079
Speaker 2: I went over as many of the historical innovations as

748
00:47:13,159 --> 00:47:17,880
I could, Yeah, starting with sacraments, and then yeah, theological

749
00:47:17,960 --> 00:47:20,400
changes and then some of Sometimes I just talk more

750
00:47:20,440 --> 00:47:23,760
neutral about other questions such as you know, Bishop.

751
00:47:23,440 --> 00:47:26,000
Speaker 1: Well you talk about infants and communion. That's important.

752
00:47:26,920 --> 00:47:30,199
Speaker 2: Yes, those, that's maybe one of the most critical differences.

753
00:47:30,519 --> 00:47:33,679
I think that that alone is maybe the most important.

754
00:47:33,880 --> 00:47:38,719
Speaker 1: Right. Yeah, it's a really easy indicator of difference.

755
00:47:39,000 --> 00:47:44,400
Speaker 2: Right, It's sometimes forgotten in the debates between No.

756
00:47:44,400 --> 00:47:46,119
Speaker 1: It shouldn't be forgotten because it's really important.

757
00:47:46,119 --> 00:47:50,079
Speaker 2: I am so, yeah, very high level. Yeah, infants forgiven

758
00:47:50,079 --> 00:47:53,679
communion in the ancient Church, and I quote quote Pious

759
00:47:53,679 --> 00:47:57,559
Attenth admitting this, but later the Roman Catholics change that

760
00:47:57,679 --> 00:47:59,840
to only those who have reached you know, quote the

761
00:48:00,199 --> 00:48:05,159
of reason R. Shafe interpreted with big discrepancies on the

762
00:48:05,480 --> 00:48:09,159
what age that is, only those should receive communion, but

763
00:48:09,199 --> 00:48:13,639
the early Church gave them to nursing infants, and it's

764
00:48:13,679 --> 00:48:17,840
it should yeah, it should continue. And yeah, the Council

765
00:48:17,880 --> 00:48:21,039
of Trent actually makes a misleading claim. I think it's

766
00:48:21,079 --> 00:48:22,840
one of the evidences that the Council of Trent's not

767
00:48:22,880 --> 00:48:27,519
inspired by the Holy Spirit because it does let me

768
00:48:27,559 --> 00:48:32,320
see you. And same with the Trents Catechism. It says

769
00:48:32,159 --> 00:48:36,239
it basically tries to misrepresent the historical prevalence of this practice.

770
00:48:38,280 --> 00:48:40,159
I could go more in depth in that, but yeah.

771
00:48:40,199 --> 00:48:43,119
Other items are the question of the eleventh bread in

772
00:48:43,159 --> 00:48:45,280
the eucharse that that was a big issue in Yeah,

773
00:48:45,320 --> 00:48:46,440
definitely ten fifty four.

774
00:48:46,920 --> 00:48:48,440
Speaker 1: Let me ask you. Let me ask you a question

775
00:48:49,159 --> 00:48:54,079
about wafers, because I've never known this, because it says

776
00:48:54,119 --> 00:48:56,719
here on section three, page one O four use of wafers.

777
00:48:57,679 --> 00:49:02,159
He says, connection of wafers with coins. Why in the

778
00:49:02,199 --> 00:49:07,360
world did they use wafers. I've always wondered that, Yeah.

779
00:49:07,159 --> 00:49:11,840
Speaker 2: And that was the excuse was given. I mean, related

780
00:49:11,840 --> 00:49:14,599
to the leavened bread, was that it just wouldn't crumble

781
00:49:14,639 --> 00:49:17,679
as easily. I think that was one of them in

782
00:49:17,760 --> 00:49:21,480
the leven bread debates. For wafers, that was something a

783
00:49:21,480 --> 00:49:25,159
little more strange, And that was something I came up

784
00:49:25,199 --> 00:49:27,559
across later, of this connection with coins, and I think

785
00:49:27,599 --> 00:49:30,159
maybe there's some thread. I don't really connect them, but

786
00:49:30,880 --> 00:49:35,079
you can find this issue of like coins and currency

787
00:49:35,159 --> 00:49:37,800
and the kind of banking idea behind a lot of

788
00:49:37,840 --> 00:49:41,840
these medieval theological innovations like the indulgences, like the treasury

789
00:49:41,960 --> 00:49:43,519
of merit. Oh.

790
00:49:43,719 --> 00:49:47,920
Speaker 1: Interesting, so like you're getting paid the coin wage of

791
00:49:47,960 --> 00:49:49,159
your salvation or something.

792
00:49:50,800 --> 00:49:54,800
Speaker 2: I mean, maybe I don't know quite the interpretation, but

793
00:49:54,840 --> 00:49:58,199
there's a strange connection with with coins I mean.

794
00:49:59,480 --> 00:50:01,719
Speaker 1: What do you are argue in this section of connection

795
00:50:01,800 --> 00:50:03,360
of coins with wafers?

796
00:50:04,519 --> 00:50:09,519
Speaker 2: I simply quote a So there's a medieval room. Catholic

797
00:50:09,559 --> 00:50:15,599
theologian William durandis from the twelve hundreds. He gives a

798
00:50:15,639 --> 00:50:18,599
symbolic interpretation with the Eucharist as quote formed in the

799
00:50:18,639 --> 00:50:23,679
matter of a denarius. But that's not that's foreign to

800
00:50:23,719 --> 00:50:27,400
the first millennium church. Sure, so recent scholars have said

801
00:50:27,760 --> 00:50:30,400
from the eleventh century, I think it could be connected

802
00:50:30,440 --> 00:50:36,239
to Yeah, so a Norwegian numismatist some studies coins, and

803
00:50:38,000 --> 00:50:40,119
he was saying from the eleventh century wafers were made

804
00:50:40,119 --> 00:50:43,000
in the image of coins. They were round, flat, white,

805
00:50:43,000 --> 00:50:46,320
and two sided. Like coins. They were mass produced by

806
00:50:46,400 --> 00:50:50,519
means of an iron host press, sometimes carved or engraved

807
00:50:50,559 --> 00:50:55,199
with religious imagery or liturgical phrases. The timing is significant.

808
00:50:55,239 --> 00:50:58,159
The emergence of coin like wafers corresponds with the rise

809
00:50:58,199 --> 00:51:01,639
of monetary offerings and coin, suggesting a notion of the

810
00:51:01,760 --> 00:51:03,440
quote minting of the Eucharist.

811
00:51:04,320 --> 00:51:05,400
Speaker 1: So oh that's fast.

812
00:51:05,760 --> 00:51:09,280
Speaker 2: Yeah, wow, you maybe some connection with minting.

813
00:51:10,440 --> 00:51:15,679
Speaker 1: Now you've also got elevation of the host epiclesis terminology

814
00:51:15,679 --> 00:51:21,559
transit association in scolasticism community. Both kinds give us a

815
00:51:21,599 --> 00:51:23,840
summation of of kind of what's going on.

816
00:51:23,840 --> 00:51:27,480
Speaker 2: Here, Yeah, very high level, you know, the aim of

817
00:51:28,199 --> 00:51:30,800
these chapters sometimes are really short, just to show that

818
00:51:31,440 --> 00:51:34,280
Roman Catholic scholars admit that there was a liturgical practice

819
00:51:34,320 --> 00:51:36,599
done a certain way in the first millennium, but they

820
00:51:36,639 --> 00:51:39,360
no longer follow that or they change it later. So

821
00:51:39,400 --> 00:51:42,960
the elevation of the host, that's a liturgical right. That's

822
00:51:43,159 --> 00:51:46,159
the Roman Catholic Encyclopedia. It says it's a right of

823
00:51:46,480 --> 00:51:51,760
comparatively recent introduction, so it's it's not known to be exist,

824
00:51:52,000 --> 00:51:54,480
to have existed earlier than the close of the twelfth century,

825
00:51:55,559 --> 00:51:59,360
and they date that to yeah, maybe the very end

826
00:51:59,360 --> 00:52:04,159
of eleven hundred or early twelve hundreds. And yeah, Epiclesis

827
00:52:04,159 --> 00:52:07,320
that was mentioned as well, love times. I cite the

828
00:52:07,440 --> 00:52:11,360
Orthodox encyclicals of eighteen forty eight and eighteen ninety five

829
00:52:11,360 --> 00:52:13,920
because they list several issues of.

830
00:52:13,880 --> 00:52:16,760
Speaker 1: Yeah, innovations that are still there. I mean, I remember,

831
00:52:16,800 --> 00:52:20,199
as a trad cat when I first heard of this issue,

832
00:52:20,280 --> 00:52:24,519
I didn't even know that the ancient liturgies had the

833
00:52:24,519 --> 00:52:28,079
epiclesis and that this was But now I understand being

834
00:52:28,159 --> 00:52:30,800
Orthodox for a while now, Like I understand why this

835
00:52:30,840 --> 00:52:32,559
is an issue.

836
00:52:32,800 --> 00:52:36,239
Speaker 2: Yeah, and for that, I mean, I simply just a

837
00:52:36,280 --> 00:52:38,760
lot of that chapter is just me quoting the Catholic Encyclopedia.

838
00:52:38,800 --> 00:52:42,760
I mean quote it says the epiclesis it occurs in

839
00:52:42,840 --> 00:52:47,079
all Eastern liturgies and originally in Western liturgies. Also, oh wow,

840
00:52:47,119 --> 00:52:49,599
because it's certain that all the old liturgies contained such

841
00:52:49,599 --> 00:52:54,800
a prayer. But it's no longer the case now, you know,

842
00:52:54,800 --> 00:52:56,239
they've omitted this ancient tradition.

843
00:52:56,559 --> 00:52:58,800
Speaker 1: Do we know why? Is it just because in the

844
00:52:58,800 --> 00:53:01,599
Middle Ages they came up this idea of defining what

845
00:53:01,639 --> 00:53:04,199
the essence of the sacrament was to be matter form

846
00:53:04,199 --> 00:53:08,039
and intention, and so somehow that led to the trimming

847
00:53:08,079 --> 00:53:10,159
down of the liturgy to not have the epiceasis.

848
00:53:12,199 --> 00:53:14,400
Speaker 2: Yeah, that could be it. To be honest, I don't

849
00:53:14,400 --> 00:53:19,280
know what's the reason of that. I mean, I simply

850
00:53:19,320 --> 00:53:22,599
just document the fact that they're no longer doing that.

851
00:53:23,199 --> 00:53:25,480
But it seems to be Yeah, as a result of

852
00:53:25,719 --> 00:53:30,719
scholastic disputations that where they discuss what's.

853
00:53:31,280 --> 00:53:33,199
Speaker 1: What's essential to have the sacrament?

854
00:53:34,360 --> 00:53:40,079
Speaker 2: Right right? I love that is maybe just just less

855
00:53:40,159 --> 00:53:42,599
careful following the traditions.

856
00:53:44,119 --> 00:53:46,320
Speaker 1: By the way, what you're arguing here too, is also

857
00:53:46,440 --> 00:53:49,639
a good refutation of some of the people that are

858
00:53:49,639 --> 00:53:52,760
trying to push a lot of these latin trad cat

859
00:53:52,800 --> 00:53:55,679
ideas in the Orthodox world as well, not just amongst

860
00:53:56,480 --> 00:54:00,280
Western Rites, but also even outside of that, people trying

861
00:54:00,280 --> 00:54:03,360
to convince catechumens and converts that oh, we actually need

862
00:54:03,400 --> 00:54:08,280
all of these you know, Carolinian and and uh, you know,

863
00:54:08,400 --> 00:54:13,599
medieval scholastic traditions and ideas. And I think, and I

864
00:54:13,599 --> 00:54:15,800
haven't read your book yet because it's new, but looking

865
00:54:15,840 --> 00:54:18,639
at the subject matter here, it looks to me like

866
00:54:18,679 --> 00:54:22,280
this would also be kind of a good refutation of

867
00:54:22,360 --> 00:54:25,840
the Latinizing ideas of some new Orthodox people.

868
00:54:28,440 --> 00:54:32,119
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, I I try to avoid making any

869
00:54:32,159 --> 00:54:35,559
criticism of Orthodox people. I know, there's yet the Western

870
00:54:35,639 --> 00:54:39,400
right question. I mean, maybe some of the notes here

871
00:54:39,440 --> 00:54:43,280
and some of the chapters could help provide more context, but.

872
00:54:44,199 --> 00:54:46,239
Speaker 1: Well, not even Western Right itself. I'm some about the

873
00:54:46,239 --> 00:54:48,719
people who want to bring in, like some of these

874
00:54:48,760 --> 00:54:52,320
medieval ideas, like oh, we actually need to have the

875
00:54:52,400 --> 00:54:54,800
sacred heart. Not that you not that your book's dealing

876
00:54:54,880 --> 00:54:59,360
with medieval Romanolic devotions, but this idea that we need

877
00:54:59,400 --> 00:54:59,960
all this stuff.

878
00:55:01,880 --> 00:55:03,679
Speaker 2: Yes, I do even have a short chapter on the

879
00:55:03,719 --> 00:55:07,360
Sacred Heart Sacred Hearts of Jesus and of Mary. And

880
00:55:07,679 --> 00:55:10,039
again I mean that chapter is simply a quote from

881
00:55:10,079 --> 00:55:14,800
the Catholic Encyclopedia where they admit that there's no evidence

882
00:55:14,880 --> 00:55:17,639
for this. I mean, the first time it existed is

883
00:55:17,679 --> 00:55:20,719
in the eleven hundreds for both the Sacred Hearts of

884
00:55:20,800 --> 00:55:24,360
Jesus and Mary. If I remember that, I think that

885
00:55:24,519 --> 00:55:29,760
century of the eleven hundreds, And yes, so I don't

886
00:55:29,760 --> 00:55:32,679
think those should be introduced into Orthodoxy because it's not

887
00:55:32,760 --> 00:55:34,400
a tradition of the first millennium Church.

888
00:55:34,519 --> 00:55:37,320
Speaker 1: Well, you also have the legalistic view of original sin

889
00:55:37,400 --> 00:55:41,639
listed here, which I think is another element of why

890
00:55:41,719 --> 00:55:45,920
the position is wrong, you know what I mean, the

891
00:55:46,039 --> 00:55:48,920
latinizing position, right.

892
00:55:49,039 --> 00:55:52,320
Speaker 2: I think my book is stronger on the more historical questions,

893
00:55:52,360 --> 00:55:54,719
and because I tried to focus on those, because those

894
00:55:54,719 --> 00:55:57,639
are a lot more clear and are harder to really ignore.

895
00:55:57,760 --> 00:56:00,480
Like it's just okay, this tradition, this as a tradition

896
00:56:00,519 --> 00:56:02,760
of the first millennium. It is no longer or here's

897
00:56:02,800 --> 00:56:06,719
a clear proof of a new invention or innovation. I

898
00:56:06,840 --> 00:56:09,800
prefer to document those, but yeah, there are some discussions

899
00:56:09,800 --> 00:56:13,519
of theology, which is maybe not my strong suit. I'm

900
00:56:13,599 --> 00:56:15,159
just a I got you.

901
00:56:15,320 --> 00:56:17,199
Speaker 1: Yeah, And so you move on to talk about some

902
00:56:17,280 --> 00:56:22,679
of these other key areas that really should be brought forward. Purgatory,

903
00:56:22,800 --> 00:56:26,639
the treasury of merits, indulgences. I mean I try to

904
00:56:26,760 --> 00:56:31,039
when I have extended remanclic discussion, especially with trad cats,

905
00:56:31,079 --> 00:56:34,920
I do often bring up issues with indulgences, the treasure

906
00:56:34,960 --> 00:56:38,079
of merits, because I think these are also really strong

907
00:56:38,519 --> 00:56:43,639
things to critique that get forgotten when, for one, I

908
00:56:43,639 --> 00:56:47,519
think Roman Catholics typically always want to focus the debate

909
00:56:47,719 --> 00:56:49,719
on the papacy. That's really the only thing they want

910
00:56:49,719 --> 00:56:52,679
a debate, and then we're not getting into some of

911
00:56:52,719 --> 00:56:55,280
the other nitty gritty issues like well, now wait a minute,

912
00:56:55,320 --> 00:56:58,519
this issue of the treasure of merits, this is another

913
00:56:58,639 --> 00:57:01,079
pretty big defeater. I think it's as strong as like,

914
00:57:01,400 --> 00:57:03,519
if you really get into it, it's a strong critique

915
00:57:03,599 --> 00:57:07,320
as you know, papal geopolitical power being in contradiction to

916
00:57:07,360 --> 00:57:10,039
the first you know, thousand years of Christianity. So you

917
00:57:10,079 --> 00:57:13,519
mentioned Essen Senter distinction in here, You've got even all

918
00:57:13,559 --> 00:57:17,360
the way up to modernism and the Second Vatican Council.

919
00:57:17,559 --> 00:57:21,599
So the reason I'm asking is, do let's say, papal

920
00:57:21,599 --> 00:57:25,480
Treasury of Merit and indulgences, do these also rely on

921
00:57:25,599 --> 00:57:27,760
perhaps forgeries or not really?

922
00:57:30,119 --> 00:57:33,000
Speaker 2: For the Treasure Merit, I did not come across any

923
00:57:33,760 --> 00:57:36,519
forgeries on that, although maybe you could say there were

924
00:57:36,559 --> 00:57:40,199
a lot of an authentic documents that maybe misled the

925
00:57:40,239 --> 00:57:45,840
medieval authors, such as those of Saint Augustine. But for

926
00:57:45,880 --> 00:57:49,239
the Treasure Merit, you can almost date the decade when

927
00:57:49,440 --> 00:57:54,079
it originated. And I quote a Roman Catholic professor, Robert Schaffern.

928
00:57:54,599 --> 00:57:57,719
He specializes in medieval indulgences and wrote a book. I

929
00:57:57,760 --> 00:58:02,280
mean he basically indicates that this tradition dates to the

930
00:58:02,320 --> 00:58:06,320
twelve thirties, and then just a century later, in thirteen

931
00:58:06,400 --> 00:58:08,880
forty three, it was formally defined by the pope. So

932
00:58:08,920 --> 00:58:12,639
it barely had a century of antiquity to its name.

933
00:58:13,320 --> 00:58:17,000
The Treasury of Merit, so from the twelve thirties it

934
00:58:17,119 --> 00:58:18,599
was brought up by the theater.

935
00:58:18,800 --> 00:58:20,760
Speaker 1: Yeah, I just like, I don't see how you can't

936
00:58:21,320 --> 00:58:24,360
see this as an innovation. I mean, I know all

937
00:58:24,360 --> 00:58:25,920
the arguments about it. You know, it used to be

938
00:58:25,960 --> 00:58:27,679
a trad cat used to try to defend it. But

939
00:58:27,840 --> 00:58:33,119
I mean, now you mentioned here mercantile doctrine, what would

940
00:58:33,159 --> 00:58:34,679
you what are you arguing there?

941
00:58:35,519 --> 00:58:38,239
Speaker 2: It So it does seem like it's a very transactional

942
00:58:38,920 --> 00:58:43,239
mercantild like a bank account. So it does.

943
00:58:43,559 --> 00:58:47,000
Speaker 1: The Pope has access to the Saints infinite bitcoin account

944
00:58:47,079 --> 00:58:49,000
and he can just sort of send you this spiritual

945
00:58:49,039 --> 00:58:51,639
cryptocurrency to your wallet, your soul wallet.

946
00:58:53,119 --> 00:58:55,239
Speaker 2: It is a little strange and some I mean the

947
00:58:55,360 --> 00:59:00,159
language of the Pope and defining it rather, it's it's

948
00:59:00,239 --> 00:59:03,199
quite strange where he says, you know that, okay, only

949
00:59:03,239 --> 00:59:06,280
one drop of Christ's blood was necessary for the salvation

950
00:59:06,400 --> 00:59:13,039
of all humanity. So all this otherwise excess or maybe superfluous.

951
00:59:13,320 --> 00:59:15,800
Maybe you can think about what the intention of that

952
00:59:15,880 --> 00:59:19,679
word means. All the extra superfluous blood was it can

953
00:59:19,679 --> 00:59:22,119
be used by the Pope to dispense.

954
00:59:21,760 --> 00:59:23,719
Speaker 1: Oh wow, I didn't even know. He argued that that's

955
00:59:23,760 --> 00:59:25,079
a crazy line of argument.

956
00:59:27,800 --> 00:59:30,719
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's yes, all these can be dispens same with

957
00:59:30,760 --> 00:59:33,880
the merits of the blessed Virgin Mary and the other saints.

958
00:59:34,559 --> 00:59:38,599
I mean that's the Yeah, these superabundance of the virtues

959
00:59:38,639 --> 00:59:42,840
of the Saints and it. Yeah, it is a little strange.

960
00:59:42,840 --> 00:59:45,199
I mean maybe realman Catholics might interpret it a little differently,

961
00:59:45,239 --> 00:59:47,519
but basically, gist of it as I see it, it's

962
00:59:47,599 --> 00:59:49,599
just one drop of Christ's blood would have been enough

963
00:59:49,639 --> 00:59:51,920
for our starvations. So all the extra the pope can use.

964
00:59:52,239 --> 00:59:54,159
Speaker 1: You know, I didn't even I didn't even realize it

965
00:59:54,199 --> 00:59:56,920
was that wacky. Even I was trying to defend that,

966
00:59:56,920 --> 00:59:59,079
I didn't even know that's a line of argument I

967
00:59:59,079 --> 01:00:03,239
didn't know about using. But okay, so we've got changes

968
01:00:03,280 --> 01:00:07,599
to calendar fasting changes, so you actually go into pretty

969
01:00:07,639 --> 01:00:10,639
significant like this isn't this isn't just a book about

970
01:00:10,639 --> 01:00:14,079
the forgeries. This is kind of going into a much broader,

971
01:00:14,199 --> 01:00:17,800
much more in depth discussion of really the whole ethos

972
01:00:17,840 --> 01:00:20,639
of the difference between the Papal Church and the orthodox Y.

973
01:00:21,840 --> 01:00:25,400
Speaker 2: Yeah. I think originally the scope was, hey, look at

974
01:00:25,400 --> 01:00:27,639
these forgery Look how come you know cited in ten

975
01:00:27,760 --> 01:00:31,159
fifty four that's originally had a blog article back in

976
01:00:31,199 --> 01:00:34,480
the mid twenty tens. I don't know, it's been over

977
01:00:34,679 --> 01:00:37,559
twelve years. I've been I kind of started researching this

978
01:00:37,599 --> 01:00:40,920
and putting together notes. It's been a long I think

979
01:00:40,960 --> 01:00:44,320
it's for the best, because yeah, I had some made

980
01:00:44,320 --> 01:00:47,239
some mistakes and made law corrections along the way, and

981
01:00:47,280 --> 01:00:52,480
of course it's still maybe won't be perfect. But sorry,

982
01:00:52,840 --> 01:00:53,440
wow you get all.

983
01:00:53,760 --> 01:00:58,320
Speaker 1: You even get into papal dispensations and cyclicals, the cardinals,

984
01:00:58,440 --> 01:01:02,719
jubilees interdicts. Yeah, so this is getting This is super indubt.

985
01:01:03,599 --> 01:01:05,880
Speaker 2: Some are yes, really high level, like I could go

986
01:01:05,960 --> 01:01:09,840
over in just a few sentences, like trend substantiation. I mean,

987
01:01:09,920 --> 01:01:14,239
the main maybe Orthodox believe the doctrine, but the terminology

988
01:01:14,320 --> 01:01:18,280
and the real intricate mythology is just it's invented in

989
01:01:18,320 --> 01:01:22,280
the late ten hundreds. It's not before this ism. Although

990
01:01:22,280 --> 01:01:26,840
we're okay with the word. And then for some other items,

991
01:01:27,400 --> 01:01:33,199
some are simply terminologies, oh okay, and then oh yeah,

992
01:01:33,239 --> 01:01:37,559
to go back to the Eucharist or liturgy, communion under

993
01:01:37,559 --> 01:01:40,280
both kinds where and again some of these have changed

994
01:01:40,280 --> 01:01:44,760
since Vatican Two, But traditionally the Church gave both the

995
01:01:44,840 --> 01:01:46,880
Christ's body and blood under the forms of bread and

996
01:01:46,920 --> 01:01:50,119
wine and the euchars, but the Roman Catholics changed it

997
01:01:50,519 --> 01:01:54,519
to just give communion under the form of bread only

998
01:01:54,559 --> 01:01:58,679
and would reserve the wine or Christ's blood for the priests,

999
01:01:58,840 --> 01:02:00,960
but of course, you know, they'd say, well, Christ's whole

1000
01:02:01,000 --> 01:02:03,880
body and blood is contained in his body of the bread,

1001
01:02:03,920 --> 01:02:06,920
so they'll make these distinctions. But traditionally that was not

1002
01:02:07,079 --> 01:02:10,280
the case. They just argue from certain exceptions in the past.

1003
01:02:10,360 --> 01:02:13,920
But sometimes infants were just given only the Christ's blood

1004
01:02:13,960 --> 01:02:21,280
as wine, so they argue from those exceptional cases. Yeah,

1005
01:02:21,320 --> 01:02:24,440
the same with confirmation, where the early Church confirmed children

1006
01:02:24,519 --> 01:02:28,400
right after baptism. But then that's another item like infant communion,

1007
01:02:28,400 --> 01:02:30,679
where the Latins say this is not expedient before the

1008
01:02:30,800 --> 01:02:34,159
use of reason, even though they admit the early Church

1009
01:02:35,320 --> 01:02:42,039
did that with baptism and communion. Yeah. I spent a

1010
01:02:42,079 --> 01:02:45,800
lot of time going into some rather intricate items.

1011
01:02:45,800 --> 01:02:49,599
Speaker 1: Sometimes this is great, this is a this is well,

1012
01:02:49,639 --> 01:02:52,559
actually a way more thorough Not that I didn't think

1013
01:02:52,599 --> 01:02:54,639
you were capable. I just thought this will be a

1014
01:02:54,639 --> 01:02:57,440
book about the forgeries that he's finally publishing. But it's

1015
01:02:57,480 --> 01:02:59,920
a lot more thorough than that. You even get into

1016
01:03:00,079 --> 01:03:04,880
these pretty lengthy discussions later on about well it's not

1017
01:03:04,920 --> 01:03:07,840
that lengthy, but there's a lot of discussion about you know,

1018
01:03:08,079 --> 01:03:13,320
Canon twenty a of Chalcedon. I mean, it gets really

1019
01:03:13,960 --> 01:03:15,559
we don't have time to go through all of these.

1020
01:03:16,599 --> 01:03:21,599
Speaker 2: No, Yeah, yeah, I would say the parts I researched

1021
01:03:21,639 --> 01:03:25,679
the most would be the question of Pope Penoris's condemnation.

1022
01:03:25,880 --> 01:03:29,880
I just put together everything I could find, very thorough. Yeah,

1023
01:03:30,360 --> 01:03:32,400
that I tried to be. I think it might be

1024
01:03:32,400 --> 01:03:36,719
the most thorough collection of just all the evidence on him,

1025
01:03:36,719 --> 01:03:40,360
both in favor of him and in defense. I think

1026
01:03:40,400 --> 01:03:44,599
it's maybe the most comprehensive ever collected. I mean, by

1027
01:03:44,599 --> 01:03:46,440
the way, I didn't use any AI at all. I

1028
01:03:47,000 --> 01:03:49,360
somewhat regret a bit of terminology I used in the

1029
01:03:49,360 --> 01:03:52,800
beginning of the intro where I said, like, I think

1030
01:03:52,880 --> 01:03:57,440
like technological innovation. That's just simply referring to digitized books

1031
01:03:57,639 --> 01:04:03,360
because that helped yea CIEs Co email because this wasn't

1032
01:04:02,960 --> 01:04:04,360
would have been really hard.

1033
01:04:04,519 --> 01:04:09,639
Speaker 1: Yeah, you can't go find all these yeah, I like

1034
01:04:09,719 --> 01:04:11,840
Indiana Jones or something trying to find all this stuff.

1035
01:04:12,599 --> 01:04:15,239
Speaker 2: So yeah, maybe the most thoroughly research is Yeah, Honorius,

1036
01:04:15,519 --> 01:04:18,840
I mean spoiler he is a heretic, and the technologists

1037
01:04:18,880 --> 01:04:21,320
such and then Kennon twenty eight of Calcdon followed by

1038
01:04:21,320 --> 01:04:23,639
the Council of Truela. Those are really important. I think

1039
01:04:23,639 --> 01:04:25,960
it takes too much time to get into. But and

1040
01:04:26,000 --> 01:04:29,760
then baptism by triple immersion. Those are the three UH

1041
01:04:30,239 --> 01:04:34,079
topics I studied the most in terms of like those

1042
01:04:34,159 --> 01:04:38,880
early differences, I mean other things I looked into, I

1043
01:04:38,880 --> 01:04:42,480
mean the idea of of marriage and a Roman Catholics

1044
01:04:43,119 --> 01:04:45,920
talk about divorce a lot, but there's there's some other

1045
01:04:45,960 --> 01:04:51,760
issues they they have, such as allowing marriage within prohibited degrees,

1046
01:04:51,800 --> 01:04:57,119
such as a marriage between UH an uncle and niece

1047
01:04:57,519 --> 01:05:00,760
or nephew and aunt. I mean the pope has allowed

1048
01:05:00,760 --> 01:05:05,159
that even though that's prohibited in Leviticus, and the early

1049
01:05:05,239 --> 01:05:08,800
Church held those prohibitions to still be in force. So

1050
01:05:09,119 --> 01:05:13,400
it's some of that is rather disturbing, you know, led

1051
01:05:13,440 --> 01:05:17,119
to the Habsburg Charles the second he had an inbreeding

1052
01:05:17,800 --> 01:05:26,000
issue could have been responsible for some disabilities. And there's

1053
01:05:26,039 --> 01:05:29,679
even a pope who said a brother sister marriage could

1054
01:05:29,719 --> 01:05:33,639
be allowed by papal dispensation. So some of this is

1055
01:05:34,239 --> 01:05:37,039
a little yeah, it was not the early Church did

1056
01:05:37,079 --> 01:05:41,960
not think that was appropriate, right, And so I go

1057
01:05:42,000 --> 01:05:46,440
in depth into all of those items and related Yeah,

1058
01:05:46,440 --> 01:05:50,880
clerical celibacy. I think that's that's another important one to

1059
01:05:51,039 --> 01:05:54,639
just talk about because many Roman Catholics criticized the Orthodox

1060
01:05:54,719 --> 01:05:58,440
for having married priests. But you know the Gospel show

1061
01:05:58,480 --> 01:06:02,840
say Peter was married, and I mentioned that. Saint Patrick

1062
01:06:02,880 --> 01:06:06,239
of Ireland, if if you Reaca has confession in the

1063
01:06:06,360 --> 01:06:09,239
very beginning, he says, I Patrick, the sinner, am the

1064
01:06:09,239 --> 01:06:12,000
most illiterate and least of all the faithful, and contemptible

1065
01:06:12,039 --> 01:06:15,239
in the eyes of very many. My father was Calpurnius,

1066
01:06:15,519 --> 01:06:18,639
a deacon, one of the sons of po Titus, a

1067
01:06:18,679 --> 01:06:24,440
presidter who belonged to a village. And then I was

1068
01:06:24,639 --> 01:06:27,239
taken captive, so he mentions, Yeah, his father was a deacon,

1069
01:06:27,360 --> 01:06:29,599
his grandfather was a priest, and then the later source

1070
01:06:29,599 --> 01:06:33,119
adds that his great grandfather was a deacon as well.

1071
01:06:33,159 --> 01:06:35,920
So we can trace like married clergy. And you know,

1072
01:06:35,960 --> 01:06:37,880
if any of these priests had been celibate, we wouldn't

1073
01:06:37,920 --> 01:06:41,440
have had, uh, Saint Patrick if the.

1074
01:06:41,480 --> 01:06:43,679
Speaker 1: Yeah, you know, and what about the the that's a

1075
01:06:43,679 --> 01:06:47,440
great point. What about the trollo? Did do you argue

1076
01:06:47,719 --> 01:06:49,760
and show that trollo was accepted?

1077
01:06:51,360 --> 01:06:54,800
Speaker 2: Yes? Uh, yeah, trello is something I really go in

1078
01:06:54,880 --> 01:06:58,320
depth into. I would say, in the very high level view,

1079
01:06:58,320 --> 01:07:01,679
you can prove it accepted by the Seventh Documental Council

1080
01:07:02,199 --> 01:07:08,000
clearly accepting Trelo's canons. I go into that council at

1081
01:07:08,719 --> 01:07:11,239
in extreme length. I tried to collect basically everything that

1082
01:07:11,280 --> 01:07:14,119
could be said but for and against it. But I'll

1083
01:07:14,159 --> 01:07:16,320
say it's just simply settled by the fact the Seventh

1084
01:07:16,320 --> 01:07:17,800
Documental Council endorset.

1085
01:07:19,679 --> 01:07:26,039
Speaker 1: Is there any evidence that the papacy did not or

1086
01:07:26,079 --> 01:07:28,679
had a problem with Trello at the Seventh Council?

1087
01:07:30,400 --> 01:07:33,360
Speaker 2: Oh, at the Seventh Council, I know, it doesn't seem

1088
01:07:33,480 --> 01:07:38,400
that they didn't make any objections then, even though the yeah,

1089
01:07:38,400 --> 01:07:42,039
the room Catholic legates were there. But sometimes Roman Catholics

1090
01:07:42,280 --> 01:07:47,400
make rather strange claims about that the ecumenical councils are

1091
01:07:49,239 --> 01:07:51,880
I guess they might not fully love them, are reluctant

1092
01:07:51,920 --> 01:07:52,960
to accept the full.

1093
01:07:53,320 --> 01:07:55,440
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's like they don't. The only thing that matters

1094
01:07:55,440 --> 01:07:57,199
from them is what the Pope says matters.

1095
01:07:57,239 --> 01:08:04,039
Speaker 2: Basically, Yeah, it's really on traditional view. Yeah, for Trilo.

1096
01:08:04,119 --> 01:08:07,679
There are some cases of apparently some popes not liking

1097
01:08:07,719 --> 01:08:09,599
what it said, but that just simply shows that the

1098
01:08:09,679 --> 01:08:13,119
church did not it was not swayed by that, and

1099
01:08:13,159 --> 01:08:15,320
it did not affect what.

1100
01:08:14,679 --> 01:08:17,720
Speaker 1: What What's the do you recall the first sort of

1101
01:08:18,319 --> 01:08:24,880
evidence or mention from the popes not liking Trollo or

1102
01:08:24,920 --> 01:08:26,039
something at Nicia too?

1103
01:08:28,159 --> 01:08:30,760
Speaker 2: Yeah, let me, I'll have to check my notes. I'm

1104
01:08:30,800 --> 01:08:31,760
trying to think.

1105
01:08:33,600 --> 01:08:36,000
Speaker 1: If it's not a big deal. Just this was curious.

1106
01:08:36,279 --> 01:08:40,600
Speaker 2: I know, the Liber pontific caulis that book of popes.

1107
01:08:40,640 --> 01:08:46,119
It does mention, uh some, it does not like it

1108
01:08:46,159 --> 01:08:49,600
doesn't like the council at all. And there's there's also.

1109
01:08:49,560 --> 01:08:52,119
Speaker 1: A trollo or which one trollo?

1110
01:08:52,399 --> 01:08:55,039
Speaker 2: Uh yeah, that that council. I mean I see too.

1111
01:08:55,039 --> 01:08:57,720
It's yeah, it's fully accepted.

1112
01:08:58,000 --> 01:09:02,199
Speaker 1: Although yeah, well people's but even that I'm curious about

1113
01:09:02,279 --> 01:09:05,960
because when Roman Callolics say they fully accept it, I

1114
01:09:06,039 --> 01:09:07,640
mean I'm not. I'm not even sure they really do,

1115
01:09:07,840 --> 01:09:13,800
like because there's things that you know are canonical some

1116
01:09:13,800 --> 01:09:17,000
somewhat in the Canons of Nicia two that I don't

1117
01:09:17,039 --> 01:09:19,439
think Roman Cloics would agree with, like images of the

1118
01:09:19,479 --> 01:09:22,359
Father and this kind of stuff. And you know the

1119
01:09:22,359 --> 01:09:25,439
Sonoticon which comes out of the eight forty three reaffirmation

1120
01:09:25,720 --> 01:09:30,399
of Nicia two. Romancalox suresack don't follow that, so I

1121
01:09:30,399 --> 01:09:31,920
don't even I mean, now I think you can even

1122
01:09:32,119 --> 01:09:34,600
I think the way it seems like they give like

1123
01:09:35,439 --> 01:09:38,159
name verbal credence to Nicia too, but they don't really

1124
01:09:38,199 --> 01:09:38,760
follow it.

1125
01:09:39,479 --> 01:09:41,279
Speaker 2: Yeah, I think that is the case. I mean some

1126
01:09:41,319 --> 01:09:44,079
of them are very disparaging to the Fathers, like right on,

1127
01:09:44,840 --> 01:09:48,520
like Beller mean when he criticizes the Seventh Ecumental Council

1128
01:09:48,760 --> 01:09:54,319
Fathers for endorsing the condemnation of Honorius Robert Beller mean

1129
01:09:54,399 --> 01:09:57,880
in Roman Catholic saying he says the father simply followed

1130
01:09:57,880 --> 01:10:01,439
what they saw in the any scripts they were basically

1131
01:10:01,439 --> 01:10:05,119
just implies they were misled. They don't. Many rom Katacs

1132
01:10:05,159 --> 01:10:09,079
have not been respectful to the Church Fathers in that degree.

1133
01:10:11,680 --> 01:10:16,239
So I yeah, because the Seventh Council does also reiterate.

1134
01:10:16,479 --> 01:10:19,640
Speaker 1: Yeah, it reiterates Honri's's condination exactly.

1135
01:10:21,039 --> 01:10:23,880
Speaker 2: As for the images of God the Father, I used

1136
01:10:23,880 --> 01:10:26,720
to have a chapter on that, but I got rid

1137
01:10:26,760 --> 01:10:29,399
of that basically, not just some notes. If someone really

1138
01:10:29,399 --> 01:10:32,560
wants they could always reach out to me, because I

1139
01:10:32,560 --> 01:10:34,760
I think it's just one of those points on which

1140
01:10:34,760 --> 01:10:35,840
there's differences within.

1141
01:10:35,960 --> 01:10:37,800
Speaker 1: Yeah. I know, it's a nuanced issue and we have

1142
01:10:37,920 --> 01:10:41,600
the you know, the ancient days, and my point was

1143
01:10:41,640 --> 01:10:45,920
not to be hyper precise about the canon. I'm just

1144
01:10:45,960 --> 01:10:50,000
saying that the theology of icons, which clearly is the

1145
01:10:50,000 --> 01:10:53,439
ethos of the Seventh Council, is not followed by Rome.

1146
01:10:53,960 --> 01:10:56,279
So I mean, in their minds, it's just yeah, you

1147
01:10:56,319 --> 01:10:59,520
can have artistic religious images, It's like, but that's not

1148
01:10:59,560 --> 01:11:02,279
what I anography and iconographic theology really is.

1149
01:11:03,720 --> 01:11:06,359
Speaker 2: Yes, yes, same with the statues as well. I know

1150
01:11:06,439 --> 01:11:09,680
that's disputed. I mean I would say Roman Catholics exceeded

1151
01:11:09,680 --> 01:11:13,239
the bounds of propriety. Oh and even on images, there's

1152
01:11:13,279 --> 01:11:17,960
some rather strange things with the Renaissance art work.

1153
01:11:18,039 --> 01:11:22,159
Speaker 1: Oh absolutely, So that's that's that's essentially what the Well,

1154
01:11:22,159 --> 01:11:24,760
the Los Gawspensky book is really good kind of critiquing

1155
01:11:24,800 --> 01:11:25,119
some of that.

1156
01:11:25,199 --> 01:11:29,840
Speaker 2: Later on, there's some rather disturbing things. I mean, in

1157
01:11:29,920 --> 01:11:35,319
the Sistine Chapel that Michaelangelo depicts the Blessed Virgin Mary

1158
01:11:35,399 --> 01:11:37,319
in a rather sensual pose.

1159
01:11:37,600 --> 01:11:39,239
Speaker 1: Well, it's a lot more than that. I mean, there's

1160
01:11:39,279 --> 01:11:43,000
a lot of weird hermetic stuff going on. And that's

1161
01:11:43,039 --> 01:11:45,600
that's I mentioned earlier that book a cult Renaissance Church

1162
01:11:45,600 --> 01:11:49,319
of Rome, and even as a trad cat Hoffman wrote

1163
01:11:49,359 --> 01:11:54,239
that critiquing a lot of the Renaissance art of the Roman,

1164
01:11:54,479 --> 01:11:55,800
of the Vatican, the Roman Church.

1165
01:11:55,840 --> 01:12:00,600
Speaker 2: So yeah, yeah, it's disturbing sometimes how they depict Blessed

1166
01:12:00,640 --> 01:12:04,159
Virgin Mary similar to the so called Goddess of Desire

1167
01:12:04,359 --> 01:12:08,239
of Venus. They imitate those ancient exact statues. It's like,

1168
01:12:08,319 --> 01:12:13,079
that's not appropriate. Same with some strange ideas of people

1169
01:12:13,119 --> 01:12:15,600
receiving milk from the breast of the Virgin Mary.

1170
01:12:15,720 --> 01:12:19,760
Speaker 1: Yes, this is a Taylor Marshall the favorite.

1171
01:12:20,439 --> 01:12:22,760
Speaker 2: Oh yes, I have seen that.

1172
01:12:23,520 --> 01:12:25,720
Speaker 1: But that's I mean, that's kind of a joke. But

1173
01:12:25,760 --> 01:12:28,640
it's also not a joke because this is actually really

1174
01:12:28,720 --> 01:12:32,720
important to a lot of Roman Catholic devotional life. In fact,

1175
01:12:32,880 --> 01:12:35,880
the church down the road from us is Our Lady

1176
01:12:35,880 --> 01:12:39,600
of La Leche, which is a giant Roman Catholic shrine,

1177
01:12:39,680 --> 01:12:42,920
because the Franciscans did one of the first masses in America.

1178
01:12:42,960 --> 01:12:45,840
There might be the first mass even in North America,

1179
01:12:46,479 --> 01:12:48,840
and it's Our Lady of the Milk. This is actually

1180
01:12:48,840 --> 01:12:54,760
a really important thing in Roman calog mysticism.

1181
01:12:54,840 --> 01:12:57,279
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's strange, and you can document it. There's no

1182
01:12:57,319 --> 01:13:00,600
evidence of anyone you same with the stigma, no evidence

1183
01:13:00,600 --> 01:13:03,279
of this in the first millennium, no evidence of someone

1184
01:13:03,319 --> 01:13:06,680
receiving milk from Mary's breast. It's a rather strange thing,

1185
01:13:06,680 --> 01:13:08,920
but there's no evidence of that in the first millennium.

1186
01:13:08,920 --> 01:13:09,760
It's starting now.

1187
01:13:09,800 --> 01:13:13,279
Speaker 1: I'm assuming I know that it comes up. It's in

1188
01:13:13,439 --> 01:13:16,000
paintings of Bernard and that when I was a tried cap,

1189
01:13:16,079 --> 01:13:17,960
I used to love Bernard of Clervau and I'd read

1190
01:13:17,960 --> 01:13:20,119
his stuff all the time. And you have a little

1191
01:13:20,159 --> 01:13:22,439
section on that. What was your conclusion on that.

1192
01:13:24,119 --> 01:13:27,680
Speaker 2: Yeah, I've seen it in the Proudu Museum in Spain,

1193
01:13:28,079 --> 01:13:34,439
in Madrid, they have the artwork. It's rather strange. I

1194
01:13:34,439 --> 01:13:37,319
mean they say it's supposed to be. Sometimes they say

1195
01:13:37,359 --> 01:13:39,239
it was in a miracle or a vision, not in

1196
01:13:39,680 --> 01:13:40,239
real life.

1197
01:13:40,399 --> 01:13:41,880
Speaker 1: Of who of was it?

1198
01:13:44,439 --> 01:13:47,079
Speaker 2: I think it, Yeah, it was Bernard of Clervaux. I

1199
01:13:47,079 --> 01:13:50,159
think there's been different interpretations of how this event happened.

1200
01:13:50,720 --> 01:13:52,720
But again I would say, you know, we had many

1201
01:13:52,840 --> 01:13:56,199
you know, all the thousands of tens of thousands, millions

1202
01:13:56,239 --> 01:13:59,079
of Christians in the first millennium, no one had the

1203
01:13:59,119 --> 01:14:02,600
stigma that no one had this. It's it's just it.

1204
01:14:03,079 --> 01:14:05,880
I focus just on the historical discontinuity. You know, maybe

1205
01:14:06,199 --> 01:14:08,840
the same with the stigmata. They defend it from Saint

1206
01:14:08,880 --> 01:14:10,920
Paul's words where he says I bear in my body

1207
01:14:10,960 --> 01:14:13,239
the marks of the Lord Jesus, and the word marks

1208
01:14:13,279 --> 01:14:17,560
in Latin is stigmata. But the church fathers don't see

1209
01:14:17,560 --> 01:14:18,159
that as.

1210
01:14:18,000 --> 01:14:19,640
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's not literally the marks.

1211
01:14:19,720 --> 01:14:23,159
Speaker 2: Yeah, no, it's not. Yeah, and yeah. I quote John

1212
01:14:23,199 --> 01:14:26,880
Crazostom giving it a different interpretation, saying it's his trials,

1213
01:14:26,880 --> 01:14:30,279
his dangers, his stripes, the perils which attended his conversion.

1214
01:14:31,680 --> 01:14:34,119
But they say there's been three hundred, at least three

1215
01:14:34,159 --> 01:14:38,399
hundred and twenty one stigmatics since twelve twenty four. I mean, right,

1216
01:14:38,479 --> 01:14:41,880
it's how is that it's not statistically possible? If uh,

1217
01:14:42,159 --> 01:14:44,720
it's just strange that you know, Saint Francis, the Roman Catholic,

1218
01:14:44,800 --> 01:14:47,720
Saint Francis of ASSISI was the first to have received

1219
01:14:48,079 --> 01:14:49,039
the stigmata.

1220
01:14:49,159 --> 01:14:52,119
Speaker 1: So yeah, did you know I've found in Uh. I

1221
01:14:52,159 --> 01:14:55,399
was reading a book, The Oxford Companion to Western Mysticism,

1222
01:14:55,479 --> 01:14:59,079
and this whole chapter on medieval Roman Catholic male and

1223
01:14:59,119 --> 01:15:03,039
female mystic and I didn't know that Francis claimed to

1224
01:15:03,039 --> 01:15:06,079
have a vision of seeing a crucified seraphim. Did you

1225
01:15:06,079 --> 01:15:10,039
know that I know I did really really weird stuff,

1226
01:15:10,039 --> 01:15:12,640
which you know is orthodox would be like that's out there.

1227
01:15:14,000 --> 01:15:16,479
Rum Mcallich's love it. They think this is like a

1228
01:15:17,159 --> 01:15:19,479
there's a sign. You know, he's clearly saying he saw

1229
01:15:19,560 --> 01:15:22,359
a crucified seraphim. I mean the angels weren't crucified. It

1230
01:15:22,359 --> 01:15:27,439
doesn't make any sense. But okay, so we've gone for

1231
01:15:27,600 --> 01:15:30,119
a little you know, hour and fifteen. That's a pretty good,

1232
01:15:30,159 --> 01:15:35,439
I think overview of this text. Again, I highly recommend

1233
01:15:35,520 --> 01:15:39,119
everybody get this. As I look at the chapter section

1234
01:15:39,439 --> 01:15:42,439
titles here, this is way more extensive than I expected.

1235
01:15:42,600 --> 01:15:44,840
In fact, I'm not that I wasn't interested in the

1236
01:15:44,840 --> 01:15:47,000
forgeries book. This is this is way more than that.

1237
01:15:47,399 --> 01:15:50,199
So I think, guys, you really need to get airs

1238
01:15:50,199 --> 01:15:52,880
of the Latins Volume one and two. I've got it

1239
01:15:52,920 --> 01:15:56,279
linked below from Uncut Mountain Press, and it is now available,

1240
01:15:56,279 --> 01:15:59,479
so it is ready to ship. It just went to

1241
01:15:59,520 --> 01:16:02,960
the printer couple days ago. So what else, George, anything

1242
01:16:02,960 --> 01:16:05,359
else that we need to know about the book before

1243
01:16:05,399 --> 01:16:05,880
we get it.

1244
01:16:07,399 --> 01:16:11,720
Speaker 2: I think that's basically it. Yeah, there's these different topics.

1245
01:16:11,760 --> 01:16:15,039
I tried my best to be as fair as I could,

1246
01:16:15,640 --> 01:16:19,520
and I put a love effort into the research.

1247
01:16:19,840 --> 01:16:22,119
Speaker 1: It's well many years. This isn't This isn't like a

1248
01:16:22,279 --> 01:16:24,399
you know, throw it together thing. You've been working on

1249
01:16:24,479 --> 01:16:25,159
us for a long time.

1250
01:16:26,119 --> 01:16:29,119
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's a lot of time. I mean it's meant

1251
01:16:29,159 --> 01:16:30,560
to be more of a reference work. You don't have

1252
01:16:30,600 --> 01:16:34,319
to read from beginning to end. It's meant to I

1253
01:16:34,319 --> 01:16:38,000
have a lot of recommendations for additional reading so that

1254
01:16:38,600 --> 01:16:40,359
someone could turn to those if they want to get

1255
01:16:40,359 --> 01:16:44,479
more details. And yeah, it's meant to be more Yeah,

1256
01:16:44,560 --> 01:16:47,039
reference work. You don't have to read all the pages.

1257
01:16:47,079 --> 01:16:49,760
I know it's a lot of text, but I think

1258
01:16:50,199 --> 01:16:53,439
it helps to just document. That's my main name, to

1259
01:16:53,560 --> 01:16:57,279
just have these quotations and cite things fairly and try

1260
01:16:57,319 --> 01:17:01,000
and consider aspect of the question.

1261
01:17:01,479 --> 01:17:03,720
Speaker 1: It looks like a really well done scholarly work. I'm

1262
01:17:03,760 --> 01:17:06,199
really proud of you. I think it's awesome. It's amazing.

1263
01:17:07,359 --> 01:17:10,520
May God bless this venture. Guys. Remember to head on

1264
01:17:10,520 --> 01:17:12,439
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1265
01:17:12,880 --> 01:17:14,720
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1266
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1267
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1268
01:17:20,880 --> 01:17:23,640
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1269
01:17:23,680 --> 01:17:27,079
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1270
01:17:27,119 --> 01:17:29,239
the gym, get your diet right. Head on over to

1271
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1272
01:17:31,520 --> 01:17:33,600
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1273
01:17:33,640 --> 01:17:37,199
as well as the recurring subscription J forty four Life.

1274
01:17:37,199 --> 01:17:40,079
This is Jay four four l I f E, as

1275
01:17:40,079 --> 01:17:45,039
well as supporting George and other Orthodox content creators and writers. George,

1276
01:17:45,079 --> 01:17:46,920
thank you so much for coming on. Great discussion.

1277
01:17:48,000 --> 01:17:50,479
Speaker 2: Thank you very much, Jay, absolutely.

1278
01:17:50,000 --> 01:17:52,359
Speaker 1: And we're going to have this up very soon, probably tonight,

1279
01:17:53,119 --> 01:17:55,920
and yeah, we'll see what the reactions are and we'll

1280
01:17:55,920 --> 01:17:58,039
probably get you back on. We'll get into some more

1281
01:17:58,079 --> 01:18:02,399
of these subjects. It's so extensive, like there's stuff going

1282
01:18:02,439 --> 01:18:06,479
on here with the papacy and medieval stuff. Nobody talks

1283
01:18:06,520 --> 01:18:08,800
about weird medieval mysticism, I think, but this needs to

1284
01:18:08,840 --> 01:18:10,399
be talked about more. So maybe we'll come back and

1285
01:18:10,439 --> 01:18:12,960
talk about some of that. But thank you so much, George.

1286
01:18:13,920 --> 01:18:15,079
Speaker 2: Sure, any time,