1 00:00:00,320 --> 00:00:04,440 Speaker 1: Hello, Federalist Radio Hour friends. It's your amiable host and 2 00:00:04,719 --> 00:00:08,439 experience Shirpa Matt Kittle. You know I have the good 3 00:00:08,480 --> 00:00:11,480 fortune of talking to some of the most interesting people 4 00:00:11,800 --> 00:00:16,280 thought leaders in politics and culture. Today there's shining light 5 00:00:16,359 --> 00:00:19,519 on some very dark places in our government and fighting 6 00:00:19,640 --> 00:00:24,160 for the foundational values of this republic, this last best 7 00:00:24,199 --> 00:00:27,920 hope for liberty, and that's what we do every day 8 00:00:28,359 --> 00:00:32,520 at the Federalist. We can't do that without you. The 9 00:00:32,520 --> 00:00:36,439 Federalist Foundation is a nonprofit and we depend entirely on 10 00:00:36,479 --> 00:00:41,280 our listeners and readers, not corporations. If you value fearless 11 00:00:41,399 --> 00:00:45,799 independent journalism, please consider a tax deductible gift today at 12 00:00:45,960 --> 00:00:50,960 the Federalist dot com backslash donate. That's the Federalist dot 13 00:00:51,000 --> 00:00:56,799 com backslash. Donate. Your support keeps us going. Merry Christmas 14 00:00:56,840 --> 00:00:59,560 in a blessed new Year from your friends at the 15 00:00:59,560 --> 00:01:20,560 Federals and we are back with another edition of the 16 00:01:20,599 --> 00:01:24,640 Federalist Radio Hour. I'm Matt Kittle, Senior Elections correspondent at 17 00:01:24,680 --> 00:01:29,560 the Federalist and your experienced Shirpa on today's quest for knowledge. 18 00:01:29,920 --> 00:01:32,799 As always, you can email the show at radio at 19 00:01:32,799 --> 00:01:36,920 the Federalist dot com follow us on x at FDR LST. 20 00:01:37,560 --> 00:01:40,319 Make sure to subscribe wherever you download your podcast, and 21 00:01:40,480 --> 00:01:43,640 of course to the premium version of our website as well. 22 00:01:45,120 --> 00:01:48,200 Our guests today are The Federalist owns senior legal correspondent 23 00:01:48,200 --> 00:01:52,439 Margo Cleveland and Federalist co founder and CEO Sean Davis, 24 00:01:52,920 --> 00:01:57,359 lovers of freedom and award winning journalist. Last month, The 25 00:01:57,400 --> 00:02:01,040 Federalist received the coveted two thousand and twenty five Dow 26 00:02:01,159 --> 00:02:07,519 Grand Prize for Excellence Investigative Journalism Award, thanks in large 27 00:02:07,560 --> 00:02:10,800 part to the tireless work of Margo Sean and the 28 00:02:10,800 --> 00:02:15,479 Federalist editor in chief Mally Hemingway. I know you've you've 29 00:02:15,479 --> 00:02:18,759 heard of Mally Hemingway, that's for sure. The Dow Prize 30 00:02:18,759 --> 00:02:22,199 is awarded by the National Journalism Center, a project of 31 00:02:22,280 --> 00:02:27,080 Young America's Foundation and the Dao Feng and Angela Foundation. 32 00:02:28,000 --> 00:02:32,360 And it really is the replacement and the much needed 33 00:02:32,439 --> 00:02:35,560 replacement of the Pulitzer. As it was said at the 34 00:02:35,639 --> 00:02:40,919 awards ceremony last month, Pulitzers are awarded to lies. The 35 00:02:40,960 --> 00:02:46,520 Dow Award is awarded to the truth. Margo Sean, thank 36 00:02:46,560 --> 00:02:48,280 you so much for joining us on this edition of 37 00:02:48,280 --> 00:02:49,400 the Federalist Radio Hour. 38 00:02:50,840 --> 00:02:52,840 Speaker 2: Well, thank you for having us. 39 00:02:52,639 --> 00:02:56,680 Speaker 1: You bet, and thanks for your courage. As you mentioned, Sean, 40 00:02:56,879 --> 00:03:00,520 I'll start with you in accepting the award last month, 41 00:03:00,520 --> 00:03:01,159 you said. 42 00:03:00,919 --> 00:03:05,560 Speaker 2: This is I think many people here know. Real journalism 43 00:03:05,599 --> 00:03:11,759 is more than investigating or writing, or editing or publishing. 44 00:03:12,400 --> 00:03:17,439 Real journalism requires real courage. It requires the courage to 45 00:03:17,479 --> 00:03:21,479 follow the facts wherever they lead. It requires courage to 46 00:03:21,560 --> 00:03:25,759 say the true thing, no matter who it offends. It 47 00:03:25,840 --> 00:03:29,280 requires doing all this with the knowledge that one day 48 00:03:29,319 --> 00:03:31,000 you might even get gunned down for it. 49 00:03:32,000 --> 00:03:35,960 Speaker 1: That is exactly the commodity that is in short supply 50 00:03:36,000 --> 00:03:40,879 in American journalism today. Courage and courage, I believe, is 51 00:03:40,919 --> 00:03:48,039 what fueled the Federalist critical investigation into the Russia collusion hoax. 52 00:03:48,840 --> 00:03:53,879 Speaker 2: What say you, sir, Yeah, obviously I agree. This was 53 00:03:53,919 --> 00:03:57,080 a project of ours that was almost ten years in 54 00:03:57,120 --> 00:04:00,840 the making. We started reporting on the Rush collusion nonsense 55 00:04:00,840 --> 00:04:04,960 and very early of twenty seventeen. So I guess we're 56 00:04:04,960 --> 00:04:10,240 at eight plus years here, and it's difficult to kind 57 00:04:10,240 --> 00:04:12,759 of go back in time and understand the hysteria that 58 00:04:12,800 --> 00:04:17,680 gripped Washington over this after Trump won. That's when the 59 00:04:18,079 --> 00:04:20,399 operation really got kicked into high gear with the aim 60 00:04:20,439 --> 00:04:24,360 of maybe preventing his inauguration, and it was just a 61 00:04:24,680 --> 00:04:28,439 fevered hysteria in Washington, people thinking maybe he wouldn't even 62 00:04:28,439 --> 00:04:32,480 become president because this information was so bad. Republicans were 63 00:04:32,519 --> 00:04:35,399 losing their minds, the media were losing their minds. Obviously 64 00:04:35,399 --> 00:04:40,480 that's a short trip. Everyone was going insane, and you know, 65 00:04:40,519 --> 00:04:43,319 you could count on one hand the number of people 66 00:04:43,360 --> 00:04:47,120 who weren't and several of them worked here at the Federalist. 67 00:04:47,319 --> 00:04:50,560 And kind of what got us going on it was 68 00:04:50,759 --> 00:04:53,800 that all the claims they just didn't add up. There 69 00:04:53,839 --> 00:04:56,040 was a lot of innuendo and a lot of allegations, 70 00:04:56,040 --> 00:04:58,920 but when you asked for actual proof, Okay, show me 71 00:04:59,040 --> 00:05:04,000 this proof, it wasn't there until the key moment when 72 00:05:04,279 --> 00:05:11,079 when BuzzFeed unintentionally became a big hero in the story 73 00:05:11,120 --> 00:05:14,040 by publishing the Steele dossier. That's that's not what they intended. 74 00:05:14,360 --> 00:05:16,639 They were hoping to fan the flames of the hysteria. 75 00:05:17,079 --> 00:05:19,480 But when we actually got to see this document that 76 00:05:20,000 --> 00:05:23,839 so much of the nonsense was based on, it was 77 00:05:24,000 --> 00:05:26,600 clear at that point, well this is all a total hoax, 78 00:05:26,720 --> 00:05:30,240 and now we got to go about unwinding it and 79 00:05:30,279 --> 00:05:34,199 destroying it. And because there were so few outlets and 80 00:05:34,240 --> 00:05:37,240 so few people working on it, it took a while. 81 00:05:37,399 --> 00:05:39,360 Even though we knew we had the truth, we knew 82 00:05:39,360 --> 00:05:41,480 we had the facts, it took a while, and it 83 00:05:41,519 --> 00:05:43,680 took years and years and years before I think we 84 00:05:44,079 --> 00:05:47,319 had full of vindication. But it was worth all of it. 85 00:05:48,399 --> 00:05:54,720 Speaker 1: Yeah, it's it's funny. In her speech, Molly Hemingway had 86 00:05:54,759 --> 00:06:01,120 talked about what an instrumental role CNN's Jake Tapper wittingly played, 87 00:06:01,959 --> 00:06:02,600 and I wanted to. 88 00:06:02,519 --> 00:06:06,079 Speaker 3: Give just just a couple special thank yous, first of 89 00:06:06,120 --> 00:06:11,519 all to Jake Tapper who accidentally, who accidentally revealed to 90 00:06:11,560 --> 00:06:14,720 me in January twenty seventeen that not only was the 91 00:06:14,759 --> 00:06:17,839 hoax a hoax, the Russia collusion hoax, but that CNN 92 00:06:17,879 --> 00:06:21,319 were active participants in it. Without him accidentally revealing that 93 00:06:21,399 --> 00:06:22,800 to me, I don't know if we would have had 94 00:06:22,839 --> 00:06:24,759 the courage to do what we needed to do over 95 00:06:24,800 --> 00:06:26,800 the next couple of years. 96 00:06:26,839 --> 00:06:32,519 Speaker 1: And you know, it seems so clear now low these 97 00:06:33,839 --> 00:06:37,920 eight years later, but it wasn't, as you mentioned, Sean, wasn't. 98 00:06:38,120 --> 00:06:41,800 It wasn't clear to a lot of Americans because the 99 00:06:42,160 --> 00:06:47,160 psyop was in full swing, Margo, how difficult was it 100 00:06:47,279 --> 00:06:53,279 to round up the documents to chase down the sources 101 00:06:53,360 --> 00:06:57,959 that this exposed story now required. 102 00:06:59,360 --> 00:07:02,519 Speaker 4: So it took a lot of time because many of 103 00:07:02,600 --> 00:07:08,600 the source documents were ones that remained classified. So for me, 104 00:07:09,279 --> 00:07:14,240 what first kind of got my eyebrows lifted were when 105 00:07:15,000 --> 00:07:20,560 then Representative Devin Nunis released his memo. And as a 106 00:07:20,639 --> 00:07:25,839 lawyer who had worked on hundreds of criminal cases where 107 00:07:25,959 --> 00:07:29,800 there were issues about whether warrants were supported by cause, 108 00:07:30,680 --> 00:07:35,279 it just struck me as outrageous that the Visa court 109 00:07:35,319 --> 00:07:40,279 would issue a surveillance warrant based on what Devin Nunits 110 00:07:40,319 --> 00:07:46,079 had summarized there. So from that point on, there were 111 00:07:46,720 --> 00:07:51,399 little bits and pieces that came out. And then after 112 00:07:52,720 --> 00:07:55,839 at least this administration, you know, we're starting to get 113 00:07:55,879 --> 00:07:59,000 a lot more of it. But it took some time 114 00:07:59,120 --> 00:08:03,560 during Trump War for documents to be made public, for 115 00:08:03,680 --> 00:08:06,800 documents to be released, so that we could put some 116 00:08:06,920 --> 00:08:11,639 of the details together. One of the documents or a 117 00:08:11,680 --> 00:08:15,839 collection of documents that was extremely helpful. Where when the 118 00:08:15,920 --> 00:08:21,240 PISA warrants were or applications were released, even though those 119 00:08:21,319 --> 00:08:24,680 were in redacted form. One of the things that I 120 00:08:24,720 --> 00:08:27,759 did is I want and compared them and you could 121 00:08:27,879 --> 00:08:33,360 tell what new information was added and what wasn't, And 122 00:08:33,840 --> 00:08:38,759 that to me was extremely informative because it showed even 123 00:08:38,879 --> 00:08:43,039 though the FBI now knew that some of this information 124 00:08:43,200 --> 00:08:47,200 was false, they never updated the PISA coord on it. So, 125 00:08:47,919 --> 00:08:51,200 as Sean mentioned, this is a long process, almost a 126 00:08:51,320 --> 00:08:55,159 decade long to get this all. I think we actually 127 00:08:55,360 --> 00:08:59,200 are not even finished with all of the dirty games 128 00:08:59,240 --> 00:09:02,919 that were playing. In a sense, the Russia collusion hoax 129 00:09:04,200 --> 00:09:08,159 just kept, you know, pivoting a little bit to another hoax. 130 00:09:08,279 --> 00:09:13,480 So the entire Arctic frost was just the latest way 131 00:09:14,159 --> 00:09:16,000 that they were trying to take Trump out. 132 00:09:17,320 --> 00:09:20,519 Speaker 1: Yeah, we've obviously learned so much thanks to that reporting, 133 00:09:20,960 --> 00:09:27,679 principally from the Federalist. But Sean, you said that fairly 134 00:09:27,759 --> 00:09:31,360 early on things didn't add up. There was a stink 135 00:09:31,679 --> 00:09:36,480 to this whole hysteria that was pushed out there by 136 00:09:36,480 --> 00:09:40,600 the hysterical pushers. When did you get a sense that 137 00:09:40,639 --> 00:09:47,840 this was as huge a story involving the deep state players, 138 00:09:47,960 --> 00:09:52,679 involving the Obama administration, involving all of these parts and 139 00:09:53,360 --> 00:09:54,200 the principles. 140 00:09:56,200 --> 00:10:00,039 Speaker 2: It's a really good question. Also I think I I 141 00:10:00,080 --> 00:10:03,799 knew it almost immediately, to be honest, Hopefully I'm not 142 00:10:03,840 --> 00:10:07,559 looking back in time through rose color glasses. I had 143 00:10:07,559 --> 00:10:11,679 spent a fair time doing following James Comy, looking at 144 00:10:11,679 --> 00:10:16,679 his career, reading his books, reading books about him, and 145 00:10:16,759 --> 00:10:20,000 he always struck me as an extremely dirty character. So 146 00:10:20,080 --> 00:10:23,120 the fact that he was one of these key figures 147 00:10:23,159 --> 00:10:25,840 who was doing this fake briefing of Trump that he 148 00:10:25,879 --> 00:10:28,440 could then leak to CNN so they could use it 149 00:10:28,480 --> 00:10:31,440 as an excuse to talk about the Steele dossier, which 150 00:10:31,480 --> 00:10:32,919 no one else wanted to talk about because they knew 151 00:10:32,960 --> 00:10:35,720 it was nonsense, so they needed a pretext to talk 152 00:10:35,720 --> 00:10:38,960 about it, and why not use the FBI director briefing 153 00:10:38,960 --> 00:10:42,519 Trump on the most salacious aspects of it as the pretext. 154 00:10:43,519 --> 00:10:46,440 But it was Comy's involvement from the beginning, in his 155 00:10:46,519 --> 00:10:49,759 centrality to it, that I just knew it was dirty 156 00:10:50,840 --> 00:10:54,759 because that man had just such a long career of 157 00:10:55,440 --> 00:10:58,519 this type of nonsense. A lot of people probably won't 158 00:10:58,559 --> 00:11:01,200 remember he was at DIO in the very early two 159 00:11:01,279 --> 00:11:06,759 thousands during the first Bush administration, during his first term, 160 00:11:07,320 --> 00:11:09,720 and this was post nine to eleven. They had just 161 00:11:09,759 --> 00:11:13,799 started doing this kind of warrantless wire tapping stuff, and 162 00:11:14,159 --> 00:11:17,240 these new authorities I think, which came in either in 163 00:11:17,279 --> 00:11:19,759 the Patriot Actor right on the heels of it, were 164 00:11:19,759 --> 00:11:23,639 about to expire. And at the time John Ashcroft was 165 00:11:23,679 --> 00:11:27,279 having some health issues and was in the hospital, and 166 00:11:27,559 --> 00:11:30,600 Comy took it upon himself, I believe he was DAG 167 00:11:30,639 --> 00:11:33,200 at the time, the Deputy Attorney General or the number 168 00:11:33,240 --> 00:11:37,679 two at DOJ, took it upon himself to declare that 169 00:11:37,759 --> 00:11:42,159 Ashcroft was not able to discharge the duties of his office, 170 00:11:43,159 --> 00:11:49,480 effectively made himself temporary AG by FIAT, and then himself 171 00:11:49,919 --> 00:11:54,840 reauthorized this new massive warrantless spy program. And it was 172 00:11:54,879 --> 00:11:58,480 interesting that when you go and read James Comy's book 173 00:11:58,639 --> 00:12:02,120 about it, he's got this tick. He has to let 174 00:12:02,200 --> 00:12:05,159 everyone know how smart he is and how in command 175 00:12:05,159 --> 00:12:08,000 of the situation he is, and so he's including all 176 00:12:08,039 --> 00:12:10,279 these little details about things that was happening in the 177 00:12:10,279 --> 00:12:13,879 hospital room as he was briefing Ashcroft and shortly before 178 00:12:13,919 --> 00:12:16,840 he decided he needed to be ag for these powers, 179 00:12:17,120 --> 00:12:19,480 and he talks about how, oh yeah, Ashcroft, he had 180 00:12:19,519 --> 00:12:22,279 total command of the situation and he knew these facts, 181 00:12:22,320 --> 00:12:25,519 and you know, he clearly thought we needed to do 182 00:12:25,559 --> 00:12:28,080 this thing. Well, James, if that was the case, he 183 00:12:28,159 --> 00:12:31,000 sounds like someone who was mentally in charge to me, 184 00:12:31,440 --> 00:12:33,879 and not at all, not in control of his faculties 185 00:12:34,240 --> 00:12:37,039 or unable to discharge the duties of his office. So 186 00:12:37,120 --> 00:12:39,879 to me that it's just such a perfect story about 187 00:12:39,960 --> 00:12:42,840 Jim Comey who goes and takes charge of the Hillary 188 00:12:42,840 --> 00:12:45,960 Clinton investigation just so he can exonerate her. Then he 189 00:12:46,000 --> 00:12:48,120 makes sure he's the one who goes and briefs Trump 190 00:12:48,159 --> 00:12:51,399 on something he knew was nonsensical and he knew was false, 191 00:12:52,080 --> 00:12:55,200 that he knew was paid for by the DNC and 192 00:12:55,279 --> 00:12:57,759 the Hillary campaign, and then he does it to leak 193 00:12:57,799 --> 00:13:00,200 to CNN. And then after all this happened and some 194 00:13:00,279 --> 00:13:02,720 things aren't going his way, he cooks up these memos 195 00:13:02,759 --> 00:13:08,279 he leaks about them, several which had classified information. And 196 00:13:08,559 --> 00:13:11,000 this was all done to get revenge on Trump after 197 00:13:11,039 --> 00:13:13,440 Trump fired him, when Trump understood he was a rat. 198 00:13:13,519 --> 00:13:16,120 So to me, the fact that he was involved from 199 00:13:16,159 --> 00:13:19,080 the beginning was the red flag I needed knowing this 200 00:13:19,279 --> 00:13:21,759 entire thing was crooked. Now, I didn't know at the 201 00:13:21,799 --> 00:13:25,240 time how far reaching and broad it had been throughout 202 00:13:25,279 --> 00:13:28,720 the government, but from the beginning because of James Comy. 203 00:13:28,840 --> 00:13:29,440 I smelled a. 204 00:13:29,480 --> 00:13:33,559 Speaker 1: Rat, James Comy, the l hag l Hague of the 205 00:13:33,600 --> 00:13:37,480 DOJ right standing up, I'm in charge here. Let me 206 00:13:37,519 --> 00:13:39,519 ask you this, as a follow up sewn, how close 207 00:13:39,559 --> 00:13:42,399 do you think that pillow in that hospital got to 208 00:13:42,639 --> 00:13:47,120 John Ashcroft's face that James Comy was handling. 209 00:13:48,240 --> 00:13:51,000 Speaker 2: Yeah, who knows. He did not mention a pillow in 210 00:13:51,159 --> 00:13:55,159 his discussion of it, as I recall. 211 00:13:55,279 --> 00:13:57,759 Speaker 1: Yeah, he said, I'll I'll just take it over anyway. 212 00:13:58,559 --> 00:14:01,879 Concentrational authority be And that's really what this story is 213 00:14:01,919 --> 00:14:07,679 all about. Constitutional authority, The constitution be damned, Margo. What 214 00:14:07,799 --> 00:14:11,720 did it feel like to all of a sudden peel 215 00:14:11,879 --> 00:14:16,120 back the layers of this onion and see, for instance, that, 216 00:14:16,919 --> 00:14:21,519 oh yeah, all of this this spying stuff, this intelligence 217 00:14:21,639 --> 00:14:26,919 that is supposedly coming from you know, these these deep 218 00:14:27,720 --> 00:14:33,360 state experts, really was all about opposition research for Hillary 219 00:14:33,440 --> 00:14:35,639 Clinton and the Democratic Party. 220 00:14:36,919 --> 00:14:42,039 Speaker 4: It hit me at a different level because, and I've 221 00:14:42,200 --> 00:14:46,519 said this to many people, I'm not a libertarian. I'm 222 00:14:46,559 --> 00:14:52,360 actually a conservative. And when I saw this, it basically 223 00:14:52,519 --> 00:14:56,279 left me hanging on by my fingernails, with the libertarians 224 00:14:56,360 --> 00:14:59,039 kind of pulling my legs, you know, trying to get 225 00:14:59,080 --> 00:15:03,320 me away from that, because it was explosive to me 226 00:15:04,159 --> 00:15:09,919 to think that our government could be so corrupt. And 227 00:15:10,159 --> 00:15:14,720 when I say our government, I mean throughout the government. 228 00:15:14,799 --> 00:15:17,840 This could not have happened if it was not from 229 00:15:18,000 --> 00:15:22,360 high level to low level. And also it couldn't have 230 00:15:22,399 --> 00:15:26,639 happened without the media going along for it. So from 231 00:15:26,639 --> 00:15:31,360 my perspective, what was most shocking was it really pulled 232 00:15:31,399 --> 00:15:38,399 the curtain back that the government is not acting in 233 00:15:38,559 --> 00:15:41,879 the best interest of the public, and in fact it 234 00:15:42,000 --> 00:15:45,960 thinks it's it's duty to protect the public from Trump, 235 00:15:46,120 --> 00:15:52,039 who the public elected. 236 00:15:53,200 --> 00:15:56,519 Speaker 5: Could this latest jobs report be an election decider? Who 237 00:15:56,600 --> 00:15:59,480 watched Out on Wall Street podcast with Chris Markowski every 238 00:15:59,519 --> 00:16:02,840 days helps unpack the connection between politics and the economy 239 00:16:02,840 --> 00:16:05,360 and how it affects your wallet. New jobs reports show 240 00:16:05,399 --> 00:16:09,279 that numbers fell way below expectations and small businesses are 241 00:16:09,360 --> 00:16:12,440 laying people off. The real job engine is companies that 242 00:16:12,480 --> 00:16:14,799 are less than five years old. Whether it's happening in 243 00:16:14,879 --> 00:16:17,279 DC or down on Wall Street, it's affecting you financially. 244 00:16:17,360 --> 00:16:19,679 Be informed. Check out the Watchdot on Wall Street podcast 245 00:16:19,759 --> 00:16:22,440 with Chris Markowski on Apple, Spotify, or wherever you get 246 00:16:22,480 --> 00:16:23,559 your podcast. 247 00:16:27,279 --> 00:16:31,519 Speaker 1: John As you noted the Federalists and its staff attacked 248 00:16:32,039 --> 00:16:38,200 repeatedly during this particularly early on, and then it was 249 00:16:39,080 --> 00:16:44,039 part of the call from the establishment, if you will, 250 00:16:44,320 --> 00:16:49,279 to try to silence the Federalist. You talked about being 251 00:16:49,320 --> 00:16:53,320 attacked by the most powerful people on earth. You were 252 00:16:54,279 --> 00:17:01,039 threatened constantly with lawsuits, blacklisted by advertisers, talked about moral 253 00:17:01,480 --> 00:17:05,000 blackmail by senators, called you in your office and said, 254 00:17:05,079 --> 00:17:09,640 oh listen, now, yeah, you you you I think you 255 00:17:09,839 --> 00:17:14,160 think you have something here, but you're embarrassing yourself. Is 256 00:17:14,200 --> 00:17:16,480 that how the conversation went, and how did you deal 257 00:17:16,480 --> 00:17:17,000 with all of that? 258 00:17:18,680 --> 00:17:23,440 Speaker 2: Yeah, that little operation was more of a well, obviously, 259 00:17:23,480 --> 00:17:26,160 you know how much we like you all and you 260 00:17:26,240 --> 00:17:29,880 do such great work. But I'm I'm just really concerned 261 00:17:30,519 --> 00:17:32,920 you might be getting out over your skis a little bit. 262 00:17:33,000 --> 00:17:35,799 And you know, it's just I just you know, you know, 263 00:17:35,880 --> 00:17:38,119 I love you and we love the work you do, 264 00:17:38,200 --> 00:17:41,720 but we're really concerned about your reputation. I mean, so 265 00:17:42,359 --> 00:17:44,680 you should really think of it. It's that type of tone, 266 00:17:45,240 --> 00:17:50,000 just such a patronizing know it all tone, and it's 267 00:17:50,039 --> 00:17:53,920 it's you know, it's not fun when you're going through it, 268 00:17:53,960 --> 00:17:56,039 or friends are going through it, or company's going through 269 00:17:56,039 --> 00:17:58,480 it at the moment. But in hindsight, it's kind of 270 00:17:58,559 --> 00:18:03,359 hilarious going back and thinking about how little these people 271 00:18:03,400 --> 00:18:06,039 actually knew, and yet how arrogant they were in telling 272 00:18:06,039 --> 00:18:10,480 you to stop doing it. I recall we reported I 273 00:18:10,519 --> 00:18:12,759 can't remember if it was twenty eighteen or twenty nineteen 274 00:18:13,319 --> 00:18:17,480 on a former Dianne Feinstein staffer, So Dianne Feinstein was 275 00:18:17,519 --> 00:18:21,079 the ranking member on Senate Judiciary Committee at the time, 276 00:18:21,680 --> 00:18:25,440 she might have even been chairman. I think she was 277 00:18:25,480 --> 00:18:28,920 a ranker, and it was Judiciary that was overseeing so 278 00:18:29,000 --> 00:18:32,559 much of the FBI and DOJ stuff, and we revealed 279 00:18:32,559 --> 00:18:35,839 that it was a staffer of hers who was kind 280 00:18:35,839 --> 00:18:38,200 of arranging all of this stuff happening in the background. 281 00:18:38,319 --> 00:18:42,799 Hired Fusion GPS, the firm that commissioned the Steele dossier 282 00:18:42,880 --> 00:18:47,319 in the first place, that they brought them on after 283 00:18:47,440 --> 00:18:51,319 the election to do more, you know, Steele dossier justifying 284 00:18:51,319 --> 00:18:55,160 in Russia collusion hoaxing. And I believe the day after 285 00:18:55,240 --> 00:18:58,799 we published that piece, kind of just opening the guts 286 00:18:58,880 --> 00:19:02,240 up for everyone to see this shadowy group and former 287 00:19:02,279 --> 00:19:05,240 Democrat staffer who was behind it? All out of nowhere 288 00:19:05,319 --> 00:19:09,759 there popped up this magical little twitter op against us, 289 00:19:10,000 --> 00:19:13,400 where people just out of nowhere started demanding who funds 290 00:19:13,440 --> 00:19:17,680 the Federalist, who funds the Federalists, trying to insinuate that 291 00:19:17,720 --> 00:19:21,480 it was Russia or you know, some foreign entity that 292 00:19:21,599 --> 00:19:24,039 was leading us to look at these facts and declare 293 00:19:24,519 --> 00:19:27,440 that the whole Russian coclusion thing was a hoax. It 294 00:19:27,480 --> 00:19:32,359 was so obviously coordinated, it was run by thousands and 295 00:19:32,400 --> 00:19:38,599 thousands of bots. That was the beginning. It culminated with 296 00:19:39,480 --> 00:19:42,920 our own state department, the own United States State Department, 297 00:19:43,279 --> 00:19:45,720 spending our own money to censor us, to try to 298 00:19:45,720 --> 00:19:50,920 get us blacklisted. It culminated in foreign governments across the 299 00:19:50,960 --> 00:19:55,559 pond trying to use their power to come censor us. 300 00:19:55,599 --> 00:20:01,160 The entire power structure in government in Western government was 301 00:20:01,200 --> 00:20:04,039 deployed to try and destroy us, to try to bankrupt 302 00:20:04,160 --> 00:20:06,599 us and try to discredit us. And it wasn't because 303 00:20:06,640 --> 00:20:08,960 what we were saying was false. They were trying to 304 00:20:09,000 --> 00:20:11,720 destroy us because they knew what we were reporting was true. 305 00:20:12,640 --> 00:20:15,720 Speaker 1: Our guests today are the Federalist Owns senior legal correspondent 306 00:20:15,799 --> 00:20:19,640 Margo Cleveland and Federalist co founder and CEO Sean Davis. 307 00:20:20,000 --> 00:20:24,079 We're talking about the Russia collusion hoax and the excellent reporting. 308 00:20:24,200 --> 00:20:26,640 I've only been at the Federalist for a couple of years, 309 00:20:27,480 --> 00:20:32,599 but I religiously read the Federalist for years, you know, 310 00:20:32,640 --> 00:20:35,920 following this coverage because I couldn't get it anywhere else. 311 00:20:36,839 --> 00:20:41,200 That is why The Federalist is the twenty twenty five 312 00:20:41,400 --> 00:20:45,559 winner of the Dow Prize awarded by the National Journalism Center. 313 00:20:46,160 --> 00:20:54,000 On that topic, Margo, there were news outlets that, as 314 00:20:54,039 --> 00:20:58,920 we talked about before, basically carried water for the left 315 00:20:59,240 --> 00:21:05,880 and their narrative, their lies. New York Times, Washington Post, 316 00:21:06,319 --> 00:21:11,839 winning Politzer Prizes for this stuff, and long after we 317 00:21:11,920 --> 00:21:19,079 find out that everything they were reporting was a lie, 318 00:21:19,240 --> 00:21:22,880 they're still holding on to their Politzers. What do you 319 00:21:22,960 --> 00:21:25,799 think about all of that, after all the work that 320 00:21:25,880 --> 00:21:27,799 you and your colleagues have done over the years. 321 00:21:29,279 --> 00:21:33,279 Speaker 4: Well, it doesn't surprise me given that we're seeing that 322 00:21:33,720 --> 00:21:39,559 the legacy media continue with the same mo that they 323 00:21:39,559 --> 00:21:44,640 did during the russiacclusion hoax. They now are ignoring Arctic 324 00:21:44,759 --> 00:21:47,440 frost and all of the news that is coming out there, 325 00:21:48,200 --> 00:21:52,440 anything that they think that they can create a scandal 326 00:21:52,519 --> 00:21:58,759 they're doing, for instance, when they went after the Department 327 00:21:58,799 --> 00:22:05,240 of War Sacrit Harry for the supposed double tap, claiming 328 00:22:05,279 --> 00:22:08,680 that they were trying to kill the survivors as opposed 329 00:22:08,680 --> 00:22:13,359 to that they were targeting the still functioning boat. You're 330 00:22:13,440 --> 00:22:16,680 seeing the media do the exact same thing that they 331 00:22:16,680 --> 00:22:21,000 did under the Russia collusion hoax. They i would say, 332 00:22:21,079 --> 00:22:24,880 haven't learned their lesson, but it's not the lesson because 333 00:22:24,920 --> 00:22:32,279 they're in on it. They're purposely cooperating with a political 334 00:22:32,480 --> 00:22:37,440 side in order to either attack the other political side 335 00:22:37,640 --> 00:22:42,720 or thwart their ability to pass laws govern the country. 336 00:22:43,440 --> 00:22:48,960 It's not shocking, but it is very destructive because if 337 00:22:49,000 --> 00:22:54,720 you do not have a functioning media, the government is 338 00:22:54,880 --> 00:22:57,119 able to get away with a lot of things that 339 00:22:57,200 --> 00:23:01,319 it shouldn't. And unfortunately, we still have probably forty percent 340 00:23:01,359 --> 00:23:05,079 of the public that depends on the legacy media to 341 00:23:05,279 --> 00:23:07,000 know what's going on in the world. 342 00:23:08,079 --> 00:23:11,880 Speaker 1: Do you think, Marco that the folks at the New 343 00:23:11,960 --> 00:23:17,039 York Times, Washington Post, CNN are now, you know, thanking 344 00:23:17,559 --> 00:23:23,400 whatever pagan idol they worship that the Maryland Man wasn't 345 00:23:23,480 --> 00:23:28,920 on that boat along with the shipwrecked sailors. 346 00:23:28,960 --> 00:23:33,359 Speaker 4: Well, I think that the media wants to have a 347 00:23:33,559 --> 00:23:37,160 target to attack Trump on, and it really doesn't matter 348 00:23:37,200 --> 00:23:41,559 if it's the Marilyn Man or some drug traffickers. So 349 00:23:42,720 --> 00:23:45,680 I think that they'll just look for the next person 350 00:23:45,759 --> 00:23:49,160 to support. No matter who that person is or what 351 00:23:49,200 --> 00:23:50,839 they did, they'll try to spin it. 352 00:23:51,880 --> 00:23:55,640 Speaker 1: John, there were a lot of people, good people who 353 00:23:55,720 --> 00:24:00,640 were ground under the wheels of this on constant tutional 354 00:24:01,920 --> 00:24:07,519 witch hunt, the Star Chamber, and you know a lot 355 00:24:07,559 --> 00:24:11,680 of them. Let's talk about some of the key players, 356 00:24:11,759 --> 00:24:15,599 the whistleblowers, the key sources that we can talk about. Now, 357 00:24:15,599 --> 00:24:18,839 there are other sources we can't because our currency in 358 00:24:18,960 --> 00:24:22,599 journalism is trust, and so we we preserve that to 359 00:24:23,960 --> 00:24:26,119 you know, to the fullest extent, whatever that means, going 360 00:24:26,200 --> 00:24:29,839 to prison, whatever. But that said, there are folks like 361 00:24:29,880 --> 00:24:34,720 Devin Nunan's and others who were just their lives were 362 00:24:34,720 --> 00:24:35,839 torn apart. 363 00:24:37,839 --> 00:24:40,200 Speaker 2: Right, you know, they try to get Devin Nunas thrown 364 00:24:40,240 --> 00:24:43,799 off the Intel Committee and for a time had him 365 00:24:44,119 --> 00:24:47,480 out of the way of running that investigation through just 366 00:24:47,480 --> 00:24:51,240 a whole bunch of nu windows and lies. I will 367 00:24:51,319 --> 00:24:55,319 say for me personally, I've never been a guy who 368 00:24:55,400 --> 00:24:58,759 relies all that much on sources. They can be really 369 00:24:58,799 --> 00:25:01,519 really helpful. I mean, so, don't get me wrong, they 370 00:25:01,559 --> 00:25:05,759 can be invaluable. I've always been a document guy. When 371 00:25:05,799 --> 00:25:09,440 I was a chief investigator for Tom Coburn, I generally 372 00:25:09,480 --> 00:25:11,839 wanted to have all the documents. I would try to 373 00:25:11,880 --> 00:25:14,039 see what story they were trying to tell me, and 374 00:25:14,079 --> 00:25:16,200 then from there I would go talk to people who 375 00:25:16,559 --> 00:25:18,759 might have had a hand in creating them or were 376 00:25:18,759 --> 00:25:20,640 familiar with them or the system, and then they could 377 00:25:20,720 --> 00:25:23,559 kind of give me an overlay of how they look 378 00:25:23,559 --> 00:25:26,000 at them. And at times that would tell me, oh, 379 00:25:26,240 --> 00:25:29,000 my understanding here based on these documents was wrong, or 380 00:25:29,039 --> 00:25:31,039 sometimes it would say oh, they were directly right. But 381 00:25:31,160 --> 00:25:35,000 I always started with documents, and so it was kind 382 00:25:35,039 --> 00:25:38,480 of the same thing here. Once we saw the Steele dossier, 383 00:25:38,519 --> 00:25:40,920 which was really the root document of all of it, 384 00:25:41,359 --> 00:25:43,839 you see that and you're like, well, this is total nonsense, 385 00:25:43,880 --> 00:25:46,960 and then you start looking for the various documents which 386 00:25:47,079 --> 00:25:50,039 might impeach it. And that's what Devin Nunaz did so 387 00:25:50,119 --> 00:25:52,960 well and why the regime freaked out the way it 388 00:25:53,039 --> 00:25:56,519 did when he actually went and got the FISA application 389 00:25:56,799 --> 00:25:59,599 and referenced it in his report. It's why they freaked 390 00:25:59,599 --> 00:26:02,240 out it Chuck Grassley and tried to hide documents from 391 00:26:02,279 --> 00:26:06,240 him because his investigators were going and getting the root documents. 392 00:26:06,279 --> 00:26:11,440 And so for me, it's the documents that always tell 393 00:26:11,519 --> 00:26:15,519 the story, and it's why one side was always desperately 394 00:26:15,559 --> 00:26:18,880 trying to hide them, hiding behind claims of national security 395 00:26:18,960 --> 00:26:20,440 risk and this and that and we can't have that 396 00:26:20,519 --> 00:26:22,960 information out. Well, yeah, we know why you didn't want 397 00:26:22,960 --> 00:26:25,039 that information out, because it proved you to be an 398 00:26:25,079 --> 00:26:28,680 utter liar. For example, we had Adam Schiff, who's just 399 00:26:28,680 --> 00:26:32,759 one of the most deceitful, disgusting people in politics out 400 00:26:32,759 --> 00:26:36,599 there claiming, after NNA has put his famous memo out, No, 401 00:26:36,680 --> 00:26:39,440 they didn't use the Steele dossier at all in the 402 00:26:39,480 --> 00:26:42,200 FEISA warrant against Carter Page. That's a total lie. They 403 00:26:42,200 --> 00:26:45,279 didn't use the Steele dossier. Well, Schiff had seen it. 404 00:26:45,720 --> 00:26:48,119 He knew that they used the Steele dossier. He knew 405 00:26:48,160 --> 00:26:50,000 that there wouldn't have been a warrant without it. He 406 00:26:50,079 --> 00:26:53,000 knew that it was a primary foundational document in that 407 00:26:53,039 --> 00:26:56,559 PEISA warrant. But because he presumed that that document would 408 00:26:56,559 --> 00:26:59,079 never actually get out, he was happy to go out 409 00:26:59,119 --> 00:27:01,759 there and lie about it. So I guess my message 410 00:27:01,799 --> 00:27:03,960 to people who might be listening to this and thinking 411 00:27:03,960 --> 00:27:06,400 about a career in journalism where they're getting started, is 412 00:27:06,440 --> 00:27:10,960 that sources are extremely important. You are never going to 413 00:27:11,039 --> 00:27:13,960 know everything about a story or a circumstance because it's 414 00:27:14,000 --> 00:27:16,000 just impossible, and you're going to have to rely on 415 00:27:16,079 --> 00:27:20,559 people who are closer to the events you're investigating to 416 00:27:20,640 --> 00:27:24,880 better understand exactly what unfolded. But my advice would be 417 00:27:25,279 --> 00:27:28,039 get really really good at finding and sifting through and 418 00:27:28,119 --> 00:27:31,759 analyzing documents, because if you can do that, you're at 419 00:27:31,759 --> 00:27:34,680 a much lower risk of being led around by sources 420 00:27:34,680 --> 00:27:38,680 who might have a different motive than you, which always happens. 421 00:27:39,119 --> 00:27:42,680 Everyone has different motives and different interests and equities, and 422 00:27:42,759 --> 00:27:44,960 you have to consider that when you're dealing with sources. 423 00:27:45,000 --> 00:27:48,039 But the more documentation and paperwork and records you have, 424 00:27:48,759 --> 00:27:51,279 the better position you'll find yourself in to figure out 425 00:27:51,319 --> 00:27:52,400 what the truth actually is. 426 00:27:53,319 --> 00:27:56,519 Speaker 1: Well, here's the billion dollar question, and John, I'll start 427 00:27:56,519 --> 00:28:00,519 with you on this. Will anybody ever be held accountable? 428 00:28:00,759 --> 00:28:03,960 I mean, we look at the judicial coup that is 429 00:28:04,039 --> 00:28:08,799 going on that's certainly playing a huge part in keeping 430 00:28:08,839 --> 00:28:13,319 accountability at bay. James Komy so far is walking away, 431 00:28:13,480 --> 00:28:20,319 Scott Free, no neck James Clapper, and no neck John 432 00:28:20,359 --> 00:28:24,839 Brennan and weasel James Clapper, all of these folks. I mean, 433 00:28:25,279 --> 00:28:30,240 there are a lot of Americans who have rightly understandably 434 00:28:30,279 --> 00:28:34,640 lost all kinds of trust, all trust in their government 435 00:28:34,759 --> 00:28:38,039 because of the Russia collusion hoax and the things that 436 00:28:38,119 --> 00:28:43,000 happened beyond that. Will anybody ever be held accountable? 437 00:28:44,319 --> 00:28:46,599 Speaker 2: Well, it depends on what you mean by held accountable. 438 00:28:46,640 --> 00:28:50,039 Will all these people end up in prison? Probably not, 439 00:28:50,359 --> 00:28:53,440 And it's probably because of how kind of cooked our 440 00:28:54,640 --> 00:29:00,559 judiciary injury system is on high profile political cases. For example, 441 00:29:00,680 --> 00:29:02,119 you know, if you if you try anything in the 442 00:29:02,200 --> 00:29:06,559 DC circuit against a Democrat, forget it that that jury 443 00:29:06,559 --> 00:29:11,079 pool will not convict a high profile anti Trump Democrat, 444 00:29:11,160 --> 00:29:14,160 then then we'll go and indict Comby in the Eastern 445 00:29:14,319 --> 00:29:16,559 District of Virginia. You might say, well, then there's going 446 00:29:16,640 --> 00:29:18,440 to be a corrupt judge there who says, oh no, no, 447 00:29:18,480 --> 00:29:20,759 I'm not going to let him indict get indicted because 448 00:29:20,759 --> 00:29:23,279 I don't like the attorney who did it. So well, 449 00:29:23,279 --> 00:29:27,279 these people ever see the inside of a jail cell. 450 00:29:27,319 --> 00:29:30,480 Probably not, but I'm not going to be conclusive on that. 451 00:29:31,000 --> 00:29:35,240 We don't really know what will happen. But there's other 452 00:29:35,319 --> 00:29:39,240 forms of accountability. There is reputational accountability, which is what 453 00:29:39,400 --> 00:29:44,240 so many of these people are are desperate for. James 454 00:29:44,240 --> 00:29:46,759 Comey wants to be seen as the savior of democracy, 455 00:29:46,839 --> 00:29:50,440 but his legacy is cooked. He will forever be the 456 00:29:50,519 --> 00:29:54,240 guy who exonerated Hillary and then tried to run a 457 00:29:54,279 --> 00:29:57,400 hoax against Trump. And look, I get that. You know, 458 00:29:57,519 --> 00:30:00,920 forty five percent of the country, these Democrat who believe 459 00:30:00,960 --> 00:30:03,559 the election was stolen, they'll believe that till the day 460 00:30:03,599 --> 00:30:06,880 they die. But the majority of people now understand that 461 00:30:07,000 --> 00:30:10,119 man's nature. They know that James Clapper is a liar. 462 00:30:10,440 --> 00:30:13,119 They know that John Brennan is a liar. These people's 463 00:30:13,160 --> 00:30:16,279 reputations are kind of sealed. So you might say, well, 464 00:30:16,279 --> 00:30:18,920 that's a bit of a cope, but I really don't 465 00:30:18,920 --> 00:30:23,559 think it is. It's as journalists and investigators, we don't 466 00:30:23,559 --> 00:30:26,279 get to decide what happens to people after the facts 467 00:30:26,279 --> 00:30:28,480 are out. It's not our job and not our role. 468 00:30:28,920 --> 00:30:30,759 All we can do is get the facts out there 469 00:30:30,799 --> 00:30:32,839 and the truth out there, and let the chips fall 470 00:30:32,880 --> 00:30:36,000 where they may. So it can be really easy to 471 00:30:36,000 --> 00:30:38,079 blackpill and be like, oh, well, nothing's ever going to 472 00:30:38,119 --> 00:30:40,319 happen to them, and well where does that lead? So 473 00:30:40,640 --> 00:30:43,480 we shouldn't find facts anymore, we shouldn't investigate anymore, we 474 00:30:43,480 --> 00:30:46,640 shouldn't report anymore. I don't believe that, And I'm not 475 00:30:46,680 --> 00:30:50,759 going to let the failures of politicians somehow cow me 476 00:30:50,839 --> 00:30:53,519 into not doing my job, because our job is to 477 00:30:53,559 --> 00:30:55,640 just get the facts out there and report it and 478 00:30:55,680 --> 00:30:58,200 what happens happens, and that's what we did. 479 00:30:59,440 --> 00:31:02,920 Speaker 1: You're absolutely right, there's nothing that we reporters can do 480 00:31:03,039 --> 00:31:05,440 about that. We get the facts out there, we shine 481 00:31:05,519 --> 00:31:08,240 light in some dark places, and the chips fall where 482 00:31:08,279 --> 00:31:11,079 they may. But I have to tell you, I've been 483 00:31:11,559 --> 00:31:15,279 in this business longer than I want to admit or acknowledge, 484 00:31:15,359 --> 00:31:19,279 and it gets frustrating. And Margot, I want to ask 485 00:31:19,359 --> 00:31:21,880 you that, as a reporter who did so much to 486 00:31:21,960 --> 00:31:27,559 expose this hoax, are you frustrated that there isn't more 487 00:31:27,599 --> 00:31:32,559 accountability for people you know absolutely trash the constitution. 488 00:31:34,960 --> 00:31:39,200 Speaker 4: So that's a tough one because absolutely would like to 489 00:31:39,240 --> 00:31:43,839 have these people held accountable, and not necessarily even with 490 00:31:44,400 --> 00:31:49,200 a jail sentence, but their public reputation, which I agree 491 00:31:49,240 --> 00:31:52,920 with Sean. They will go down in history that way. 492 00:31:53,440 --> 00:31:56,559 It's what's frustrating to me, though, is that you still 493 00:31:56,720 --> 00:32:01,880 have forty percent of the population who maybe doesn't see it. 494 00:32:02,400 --> 00:32:08,799 But what I actually find, I guess more hopeful is 495 00:32:09,640 --> 00:32:15,880 as this is coming out and more and more of 496 00:32:14,640 --> 00:32:21,839 the conspiracy, because it really was a conspiracy between government 497 00:32:21,880 --> 00:32:26,759 employees as well as the elected officials to pull this hoax. 498 00:32:27,279 --> 00:32:33,160 As this is coming out, it is causing other whistleblowers 499 00:32:33,160 --> 00:32:37,720 to come forward, and hopefully it's preventing this from ever 500 00:32:37,880 --> 00:32:43,839 happening again because it is now clear that whistleblowers will 501 00:32:43,880 --> 00:32:47,759 be protected, that you will have people in government who 502 00:32:48,039 --> 00:32:53,200 will make sure that the truth gets out. So sort 503 00:32:53,200 --> 00:32:57,200 of the mutually assured destruction that was in the eighties 504 00:32:57,400 --> 00:33:01,359 I think we're seeing now, and I see that as 505 00:33:01,519 --> 00:33:05,839 a hopeful a consequence, I guess of all of the 506 00:33:05,880 --> 00:33:08,319 work that we did, even if it doesn't seem as 507 00:33:08,359 --> 00:33:10,119 concrete as we might want. 508 00:33:11,039 --> 00:33:14,559 Speaker 1: There are so many tentacles to the Russia collusion hoax. 509 00:33:14,759 --> 00:33:17,839 I think about all that has sprung out of that, 510 00:33:18,519 --> 00:33:22,039 all that has been revealed, thankfully to the good reporting 511 00:33:22,079 --> 00:33:25,440 at the Federalist and to select few other news organizations 512 00:33:25,440 --> 00:33:28,279 out there that are really doing the heavy lifting and 513 00:33:28,359 --> 00:33:32,279 good work in this field. But I think about what 514 00:33:32,480 --> 00:33:36,400 happened in twenty twenty another area that I think the 515 00:33:36,440 --> 00:33:41,079 Federalist did amazing reporting on. Molly Hemingway wrote the book 516 00:33:41,079 --> 00:33:45,319 on it, The Rigged Election of twenty twenty. Margot, how 517 00:33:45,400 --> 00:33:50,240 much do you think that rigged election under the cover 518 00:33:50,319 --> 00:33:58,720 of COVID played or was necessitated if you will, by 519 00:33:59,599 --> 00:34:04,039 this collusion hoax and what the Federalist was exposing, That 520 00:34:04,200 --> 00:34:07,400 is to say, how desperate do you think there was 521 00:34:08,000 --> 00:34:13,199 a desperation in part caused by people who faced the 522 00:34:13,199 --> 00:34:18,079 real threat of being exposed and ultimately perhaps held accountable. 523 00:34:19,400 --> 00:34:22,239 Speaker 4: I think that we would have seen much of the 524 00:34:22,280 --> 00:34:28,039 same reaction if it was merely from a political standpoint. Absolutely, 525 00:34:28,119 --> 00:34:31,400 there were people afraid of being exposed, and they possibly 526 00:34:31,840 --> 00:34:35,719 would have been exposed faster where justice could have been served. 527 00:34:36,280 --> 00:34:40,239 But the Democrats always want to win the White House, 528 00:34:40,280 --> 00:34:44,000 they always want to be able to have control of Congress. 529 00:34:44,480 --> 00:34:47,719 So I think COVID would have been the excuse to 530 00:34:47,840 --> 00:34:52,519 change these rules in order to rig the election. Whether 531 00:34:52,639 --> 00:34:56,239 or not you had this in the background, They saw 532 00:34:56,320 --> 00:35:00,280 that Trump could win and they wanted to make it's 533 00:35:00,559 --> 00:35:04,679 virtually impossible for him to do it again by flooding 534 00:35:04,920 --> 00:35:09,159 the system with all the boats that they could get, 535 00:35:09,239 --> 00:35:13,199 whether they were legit or not. So I think that 536 00:35:13,519 --> 00:35:18,199 they would have done everything that they did anyway. But absolutely, 537 00:35:18,239 --> 00:35:22,159 I'm sure there were some deep sighs of relief after 538 00:35:23,119 --> 00:35:25,599 Biden was declared president. 539 00:35:26,360 --> 00:35:29,360 Speaker 1: Yeah, they were protected, and obviously, as we know from 540 00:35:29,960 --> 00:35:35,360 his auto pen, many of them were pardoned in perpetuity, 541 00:35:35,679 --> 00:35:39,760 so that at least the argument is they can never 542 00:35:39,840 --> 00:35:44,159 truly be held accountable because of that pardon. I'll finish 543 00:35:44,199 --> 00:35:49,559 with this because we are ultimately talking about this prestigious 544 00:35:49,559 --> 00:35:54,440 award for excellence in journalism, and that raises the question 545 00:35:54,559 --> 00:35:58,719 of where does journalism in America go from here? What 546 00:35:58,960 --> 00:36:03,559 is journal what does it become? What is left of 547 00:36:04,320 --> 00:36:07,559 the idea that you talked about, Sean, that journalism is 548 00:36:07,599 --> 00:36:12,800 about courage, it's about exposing the truth, It's about making 549 00:36:12,840 --> 00:36:18,679 sure that the people, not the powerful in Washington, are 550 00:36:18,800 --> 00:36:22,760 ultimately responsible for this republic. 551 00:36:25,159 --> 00:36:28,079 Speaker 2: Well, I'm super optimistic about the state of journalism, and 552 00:36:28,360 --> 00:36:31,159 I don't say that because I'm optimistic about the New 553 00:36:31,239 --> 00:36:33,599 York Times or the Washington Post or CNN cleaning up 554 00:36:33,639 --> 00:36:38,800 their behavior because they're not going to. I'm optimistic because 555 00:36:38,880 --> 00:36:44,880 they are a smaller piece of the whole journalistic world 556 00:36:44,920 --> 00:36:49,039 now than they ever have been. The Internet democratized everything. 557 00:36:49,079 --> 00:36:51,440 It's why they've been trying so hard to shut down 558 00:36:52,000 --> 00:36:54,400 people on Twitter, to shut down outlets like the Federalists 559 00:36:54,400 --> 00:36:57,400 because of our journalism. But I think about so many 560 00:36:57,679 --> 00:37:00,639 of the we called them the a noons on Twitter, 561 00:37:00,960 --> 00:37:03,519 the anonymous people who would go through and read every 562 00:37:03,559 --> 00:37:06,000 document and they would be able to tell, oh, there's 563 00:37:06,039 --> 00:37:10,320 this many characters behind this particular reaction. These are all 564 00:37:10,320 --> 00:37:12,480 the people in that office at that time, and therefore 565 00:37:12,519 --> 00:37:16,320 we think this person fits this particular reaction. Those guys 566 00:37:16,320 --> 00:37:18,960 were amazing. They did so much more work than the 567 00:37:19,000 --> 00:37:22,920 most overpaid, overhyped people in the New York Times newsroom. 568 00:37:23,199 --> 00:37:25,199 And that's kind of what journalism is now. There's so 569 00:37:25,280 --> 00:37:29,000 much great independent journalism. You don't have to have press credentials, 570 00:37:29,199 --> 00:37:31,079 you don't have to be a W two employee, you 571 00:37:31,079 --> 00:37:33,480 don't have to be on a masthead. All you need 572 00:37:33,639 --> 00:37:36,559 is a desire to tell the truth, to find the facts, 573 00:37:36,639 --> 00:37:39,039 and then the courage to do it. So I'm super 574 00:37:39,039 --> 00:37:42,239 optimistic just because of how many people now kind of 575 00:37:42,400 --> 00:37:44,800 understand what the playing field looks like, and how many 576 00:37:44,840 --> 00:37:47,639 people just want the truth and want the facts out there. 577 00:37:48,039 --> 00:37:51,480 So I'm optimistic. I'm excited. I'm not a doomer. I'm 578 00:37:51,519 --> 00:37:55,320 not sitting around bemoaning the state because that just leads 579 00:37:55,320 --> 00:37:57,960 to doing nothing. If you look at the situation and 580 00:37:57,960 --> 00:37:59,800 you think, oh, well, this is terrible, then you have 581 00:37:59,840 --> 00:38:02,039 an obligation to get up and do it, do something 582 00:38:02,079 --> 00:38:04,000 about it, which is what we've been trying to do 583 00:38:04,199 --> 00:38:06,800 for almost thirteen years now. 584 00:38:08,000 --> 00:38:11,519 Speaker 1: As in journalism, no doubt, has been absolutely essential in 585 00:38:13,000 --> 00:38:17,400 holding individuals in government accountable. Margot, I'll close with you, 586 00:38:17,639 --> 00:38:20,000 what do you think about the state of journalism today. 587 00:38:20,639 --> 00:38:24,280 Speaker 4: I would just echo everything that Sean has said. I 588 00:38:24,320 --> 00:38:27,239 think that we are going to still have the legacy 589 00:38:27,280 --> 00:38:31,000 media doing what they've done and will always do. But 590 00:38:31,199 --> 00:38:35,880 between outlets like the Federalists and the anonymous folks who 591 00:38:36,320 --> 00:38:39,440 what they do is they get out the truth and 592 00:38:39,800 --> 00:38:44,400 the market answers to that. You see their followers jump 593 00:38:44,519 --> 00:38:48,559 up very quickly because people value that truth. So I 594 00:38:48,599 --> 00:38:53,719 would absolutely concur with Sean that journalism is moving forward 595 00:38:53,840 --> 00:38:58,320 in a great spot, not because of the legacy media, 596 00:38:58,599 --> 00:39:00,760 but in spite of them. Well. 597 00:39:00,800 --> 00:39:04,039 Speaker 1: I have worked for a lot of news organizations over 598 00:39:04,079 --> 00:39:08,559 the years, many of them no longer in existence. It's 599 00:39:08,599 --> 00:39:12,679 been quite a change in what nearly forty years in 600 00:39:12,719 --> 00:39:19,400 this business. That said it is it is emboldening to 601 00:39:19,519 --> 00:39:25,599 know that there are reporters who still care about the story. 602 00:39:26,039 --> 00:39:29,400 They still care about what the story is about and 603 00:39:29,559 --> 00:39:34,280 why it impacts the average American. And they do it 604 00:39:34,480 --> 00:39:37,400 because they still have a great passion to get at 605 00:39:37,480 --> 00:39:42,039 the truth. Because, as Shawn said, they have courage. The 606 00:39:42,039 --> 00:39:47,239 Federalist staff has that in space. Thanks to our guest 607 00:39:47,320 --> 00:39:52,039 today the Federalist Owes senior legal correspondent Margo Cleveland, and 608 00:39:52,119 --> 00:39:56,119 Federalist co founder and CEO Sean Davis, you've been listening 609 00:39:56,159 --> 00:39:58,920 to another edition of the Federalist Radio Hour. I'm Matt Kittle, 610 00:39:59,000 --> 00:40:02,280 Senior Elections Corps respondent at the Federalist. We'll be back 611 00:40:02,320 --> 00:40:05,960 soon with more. Until then, stay lovers of freedom and 612 00:40:06,119 --> 00:40:21,280 anxious for the Fray