WEBVTT 1 00:00:08.320 --> 00:00:10.759 Hello, and welcome to Mythic Mind, where we prodsue wisdom 2 00:00:10.759 --> 00:00:13.839 in the past between primary second eight worlds. Andrew Snyder 3 00:00:13.960 --> 00:00:27.760 and I'm glad that you're here. Hey, Roll, and welcome 4 00:00:27.800 --> 00:00:32.520 to our next book club conversation on Augustine's Confessions, Book 5 00:00:32.679 --> 00:00:36.679 three and four. I don't have a lot of front 6 00:00:36.719 --> 00:00:38.600 matter to provide you with for this episode, but there's 7 00:00:38.600 --> 00:00:41.079 one thing I want to mention is that I'm running 8 00:00:41.200 --> 00:00:44.520 a special right now where to reward all of my 9 00:00:44.640 --> 00:00:47.399 Tier three patrons, whether you pay annually, whether you pay monthly, 10 00:00:48.200 --> 00:00:51.679 I'm running a special bonus gift to you at this point, 11 00:00:51.960 --> 00:00:54.119 and so that if you are a Tier three patron 12 00:00:54.200 --> 00:00:56.600 by the end of this week, and so that would 13 00:00:56.640 --> 00:01:00.520 be by the twenty fourth of May twenty twenty five. 14 00:01:00.840 --> 00:01:02.840 If you are a Tier three patron by that point, 15 00:01:03.079 --> 00:01:05.079 then I'm going to provide you with a link for 16 00:01:05.319 --> 00:01:08.400 access to the Life, Death and Meeting with Beywolf and 17 00:01:08.480 --> 00:01:12.480 Boethia's course, which I ran last I think fall Winter 18 00:01:12.760 --> 00:01:15.280 around that time. It's an eight week course that has 19 00:01:15.319 --> 00:01:18.079 something like twenty four to twenty five videos attached to 20 00:01:18.120 --> 00:01:22.840 it that walk through the whole story of Beowulf, as 21 00:01:22.840 --> 00:01:28.200 well as Boethius's Constellation of Philosophy. And so if you 22 00:01:28.439 --> 00:01:31.120 again your Tier three member check Patreon, find that link 23 00:01:31.239 --> 00:01:33.280 and follow that link that will give you access to 24 00:01:33.319 --> 00:01:35.959 the Google classroom for that course. Now, once you take 25 00:01:36.000 --> 00:01:39.400 that link, you will have indefinite access to the course. However, 26 00:01:39.920 --> 00:01:42.040 that link will only be valid for this week, and 27 00:01:42.079 --> 00:01:44.760 then the invite link is going to change. And so 28 00:01:45.799 --> 00:01:47.920 if you are not already a Tier three Patreon, then 29 00:01:48.040 --> 00:01:50.760 go ahead and upgrade or sign up this week to 30 00:01:50.799 --> 00:01:53.519 get that access. But for now, let's go ahead and 31 00:01:53.599 --> 00:01:56.719 jump right into our conversation on a Gustin's Confessions book 32 00:01:56.760 --> 00:02:03.760 three and four. Wells jump right into it here. Talking 33 00:02:03.799 --> 00:02:07.959 about books three and four, this is I think we 34 00:02:08.080 --> 00:02:11.240 really start to really get into it as we get 35 00:02:11.280 --> 00:02:14.879 into Augustine himself. You know, the first couple of books 36 00:02:14.879 --> 00:02:18.960 are anyways just setting up what we're doing in orienting 37 00:02:19.000 --> 00:02:20.759 himself toward God. I mean, he goes a little bit 38 00:02:20.800 --> 00:02:23.840 into you know, some of his past, looking at the 39 00:02:23.879 --> 00:02:27.159 Pear incident, but even that's mostly to set up sort 40 00:02:27.159 --> 00:02:31.000 of theologically, like what his sin is, what temptation is, 41 00:02:31.039 --> 00:02:32.960 what sin is, and that's just kind of example. But 42 00:02:33.039 --> 00:02:36.400 now we're going a lot more more methodically through his life, 43 00:02:36.479 --> 00:02:38.560 kind of step by step with the progressions that he takes, 44 00:02:39.840 --> 00:02:41.719 and so right at the beginning of book three here 45 00:02:42.360 --> 00:02:50.000 we get this pretty just powerful diagnosis of his condition 46 00:02:50.080 --> 00:02:53.680 when he says, I came to Carthage, where a cauldron 47 00:02:53.719 --> 00:02:57.000 of illicit loves left and boiled about me. I was 48 00:02:57.080 --> 00:03:00.240 not yet in love, but I was in love with love, 49 00:03:00.560 --> 00:03:03.400 and from the very depth of my need, hated myself 50 00:03:03.719 --> 00:03:06.919 for not more keenly feeling the need. I saw some 51 00:03:06.960 --> 00:03:09.560 object to love, since I was thus in love with loving, 52 00:03:09.879 --> 00:03:12.719 and I hated security and a life with no snares 53 00:03:12.719 --> 00:03:16.280 from my feet. For within, I was hungry all for 54 00:03:16.360 --> 00:03:19.360 the want of that spiritual food, which is thyself, my God. 55 00:03:19.479 --> 00:03:22.280 And so he starts off by saying, like, I loved 56 00:03:22.400 --> 00:03:27.960 the idea of love, but I didn't yet recognize what 57 00:03:28.080 --> 00:03:32.599 love was for who love was for, And so he 58 00:03:33.280 --> 00:03:38.039 loved love while simultaneously hating himself. It kind of reminds 59 00:03:38.080 --> 00:03:40.719 me of what Tolkien says about Gollum about how he 60 00:03:41.039 --> 00:03:43.360 loved and hated the Ring as he loved and hated himself. 61 00:03:43.639 --> 00:03:46.800 It's because he didn't recognize the proper object of love. 62 00:03:47.360 --> 00:03:49.919 And then so from there on we just we get 63 00:03:49.960 --> 00:03:54.360 his his traveling and his restless heart, loving various things 64 00:03:54.400 --> 00:03:57.199 that he ought not loved with the Manicheans and whatnot. 65 00:03:58.039 --> 00:03:59.599 So I just I love the way he sets us up. 66 00:04:00.400 --> 00:04:02.560 But I'd love to hear some of your thoughts. And 67 00:04:02.599 --> 00:04:04.319 I'm going to use the word love apparently as many 68 00:04:04.319 --> 00:04:08.879 times as they can. Right, Uh, Kyle, you're umueded. Tell 69 00:04:08.919 --> 00:04:09.879 us something about book three? 70 00:04:10.719 --> 00:04:14.360 Yeah? Uh, I actually don't know. If there was book three, 71 00:04:14.439 --> 00:04:17.720 I might have been thinking about book four, just going 72 00:04:17.759 --> 00:04:22.199 further along that same theme. But it's really interesting, like 73 00:04:22.279 --> 00:04:25.800 he sees his life so clearly in hindsight, because even 74 00:04:25.920 --> 00:04:28.759 in even in book three or book four, I think 75 00:04:28.800 --> 00:04:32.480 it's like, if you love material things, love them and 76 00:04:32.480 --> 00:04:36.439 that they are in God, rather than love them for themselves. 77 00:04:36.480 --> 00:04:39.480 And so it's like there is a it's like it's 78 00:04:39.519 --> 00:04:42.639 not like there's a true dignity and the things in 79 00:04:42.680 --> 00:04:46.839 themselves they're good in and of themselves. But if you 80 00:04:47.000 --> 00:04:53.439 stop there, you're it's still vain, it's still empty, you know. 81 00:04:53.480 --> 00:04:57.319 It's it's like Ecclesiastes, Solomon or the Teacher, and it's 82 00:04:57.360 --> 00:04:59.920 just like this, there's no there's no value here unless 83 00:04:59.920 --> 00:05:05.319 you follow these things towards their tell us. And I, oh, gosh, 84 00:05:05.319 --> 00:05:07.480 I don't remember who it was. I was listening to 85 00:05:07.519 --> 00:05:11.800 a conversation maybe two months ago, and it was about 86 00:05:11.800 --> 00:05:17.600 how aros is meant to be a ladder towards one 87 00:05:17.600 --> 00:05:19.560 of the other forms of love, and that Aros is 88 00:05:19.680 --> 00:05:22.560 sort of like that that earthly affection we have, but 89 00:05:22.639 --> 00:05:25.759 it's always just meant to be that compass that points 90 00:05:25.839 --> 00:05:29.519 us towards that love for God. And he seems to 91 00:05:29.720 --> 00:05:31.759 like here in the beginning of book three, he's showing 92 00:05:31.839 --> 00:05:35.360 like he's not he's not looking at the like, he's 93 00:05:35.360 --> 00:05:37.040 not looking where they're pointing. He's just looking at the 94 00:05:37.040 --> 00:05:40.120 things themselves. And he sees how clearly in hindsight, how 95 00:05:40.199 --> 00:05:41.800 why that's what left him empty. 96 00:05:43.959 --> 00:05:46.000 Yeah. And the way that you phrase about how aroos 97 00:05:46.040 --> 00:05:48.959 is meant to lead to the higher divine love, I mean, honestly, 98 00:05:49.000 --> 00:05:51.000 I could equally be said by C. S. Lewis or 99 00:05:51.079 --> 00:05:54.720 Plato himself. In the symposium, the idea was that the 100 00:05:54.959 --> 00:05:57.680 lesser love of things like Aros are meant to lead 101 00:05:57.759 --> 00:06:00.519 us to the higher love of the good. That when 102 00:06:00.560 --> 00:06:02.920 we love the good, well, now we have the proper 103 00:06:02.920 --> 00:06:06.240 perspective for loving good things, whereas when you love good 104 00:06:06.240 --> 00:06:08.040 things separate from the good, we lose the good that 105 00:06:08.079 --> 00:06:10.439 makes good things good. And in so doing, the things 106 00:06:10.439 --> 00:06:13.120 themselves may still be good, but our desires are evil 107 00:06:13.199 --> 00:06:15.560 because they're turned away from the good. Right. That's a 108 00:06:15.639 --> 00:06:19.959 very platonic way of seeing things, and especially in Augustine 109 00:06:20.040 --> 00:06:22.279 way of seeing things. Who you know, Augustine's going to 110 00:06:22.360 --> 00:06:25.120 reteem redeem the material world and see that a little 111 00:06:25.120 --> 00:06:28.959 bit better than playto himself does, because he recognizes like 112 00:06:29.120 --> 00:06:33.839 anything that exists exists by the will of God. Therefore 113 00:06:34.000 --> 00:06:38.360 existence itself is good. You know, I'm still wrapping up 114 00:06:38.360 --> 00:06:40.279 some of the Tolkien materials, so I've got Tolkien still 115 00:06:40.319 --> 00:06:42.800 running through my mind here. But you know, Tolkien says that, 116 00:06:42.959 --> 00:06:46.600 you know, he doesn't believe in absolute evil. Yeah, absolute 117 00:06:46.639 --> 00:06:47.560 evil would be non being. 118 00:06:48.079 --> 00:06:51.759 Yeah, I remember Freeman touches on that in Tolkien dogmatics, like, 119 00:06:51.800 --> 00:06:57.759 there's no such thing as as just the total deprivation 120 00:06:57.839 --> 00:07:02.800 of good, like all things being God's creation. Just there's 121 00:07:02.839 --> 00:07:07.000 there's some virtue that's that's given to all things, even 122 00:07:07.040 --> 00:07:10.120 if it's just in the goodness. What was it? 123 00:07:10.160 --> 00:07:10.319 Oh? 124 00:07:10.360 --> 00:07:15.720 I was reading paradise lost yesterday for the course on Wednesday. 125 00:07:16.240 --> 00:07:19.800 And it's interesting because Satan is saying in Book one, 126 00:07:19.959 --> 00:07:25.439 he's like, God has given us our mental capacity so 127 00:07:25.480 --> 00:07:30.399 that we would feel our pains more fully, right, because 128 00:07:30.439 --> 00:07:33.800 it is a good thing that justice would be done. 129 00:07:34.040 --> 00:07:38.160 And so even though even though like Satan is an 130 00:07:38.240 --> 00:07:42.279 object of wrath, there is a total goodness in his 131 00:07:44.040 --> 00:07:48.360 preserved acuity, his preserved perception and all that, so that 132 00:07:48.399 --> 00:07:51.920 he can receive wrath more fully. So there's no such 133 00:07:51.959 --> 00:07:54.720 things as that complete absence. 134 00:07:56.480 --> 00:08:00.639 Right, which is why you know in the inferno that 135 00:08:00.639 --> 00:08:04.120 that hell is frozen over because it's as close to 136 00:08:04.360 --> 00:08:06.879 non being as you can get, but it's still there, 137 00:08:07.240 --> 00:08:09.120 that there was still a thing that we're talking about. 138 00:08:10.560 --> 00:08:14.040 And so yeah, so being itself is good, and that 139 00:08:14.160 --> 00:08:17.600 actually is a I think I believe that is a 140 00:08:17.680 --> 00:08:22.519 Christian philosophical position that I don't know theologically how you 141 00:08:22.560 --> 00:08:25.319 get out of that. Recognizing that you know, all things 142 00:08:25.360 --> 00:08:27.079 are you know, from God, and all things are held 143 00:08:27.120 --> 00:08:31.839 together by God, existence itself is fundamentally good, which really, 144 00:08:32.519 --> 00:08:36.960 if we believe that, then we have reason for joy 145 00:08:37.559 --> 00:08:41.799 at simply being itself, regardless of particular circumstances. This is 146 00:08:41.840 --> 00:08:43.960 why this idea is going to get a lot of 147 00:08:43.960 --> 00:08:46.720 play in Boethius a little bit later on in time, 148 00:08:47.080 --> 00:08:50.039 that Boethius can say that, no matter how much injustice 149 00:08:50.080 --> 00:08:53.039 I'm facing right now, the fact that I'm here able 150 00:08:53.039 --> 00:08:56.759 to recognize injustice means that high exist, and existence is 151 00:08:56.799 --> 00:09:01.000 good existence. The affirmation of existence provides a straight line 152 00:09:01.000 --> 00:09:04.080 to the beatific vision followed, you know fully, to its 153 00:09:04.080 --> 00:09:07.279 course or to its source, kind of same thing, beginning 154 00:09:07.320 --> 00:09:11.159 and end. And so this, this idea that being is 155 00:09:11.200 --> 00:09:14.679 fundamentally good, it gets a lot of play in medieval 156 00:09:14.919 --> 00:09:20.159 Christian philosophy. And I think that's one reason why you know, 157 00:09:20.279 --> 00:09:22.720 as much as as you know, we we talk about 158 00:09:22.720 --> 00:09:26.000 the dark ages. I think philosophically, these are the bright ages. 159 00:09:26.039 --> 00:09:29.559 They make so much, give so much priority, just the 160 00:09:29.639 --> 00:09:33.000 luminosity of existence, and I think that's something that can 161 00:09:33.360 --> 00:09:37.159 deeply enrich and really re enchant our lives. I often 162 00:09:37.639 --> 00:09:40.159 quote this, this Thomas Aquinas line when he says that 163 00:09:40.480 --> 00:09:42.480 all the efforts of the human mind cannot exhaust the 164 00:09:42.559 --> 00:09:45.639 essence of a single fly like existence is far more 165 00:09:45.639 --> 00:09:48.879 wondrous than we tend to think. It just it's just 166 00:09:49.000 --> 00:09:58.840 it's marvelous, all right, reach why you share something with 167 00:09:58.919 --> 00:10:01.320 us about and thing from from the section of reading 168 00:10:01.320 --> 00:10:02.360 whatever foot to boot. 169 00:10:04.840 --> 00:10:08.600 I was meant to reread it last night, but I 170 00:10:08.639 --> 00:10:12.000 took my book to Bible College and I'll just finish off. 171 00:10:12.279 --> 00:10:16.919 I was reading, like Luther's one of his books, and 172 00:10:17.000 --> 00:10:18.320 I just kept going on and I don't know. 173 00:10:18.360 --> 00:10:18.799 So I didn't. 174 00:10:19.960 --> 00:10:24.240 I got my reading done. Thing you need but fair enough. 175 00:10:24.360 --> 00:10:28.159 I mean Augustine Confessions, Augustinian Monk. I mean, you know 176 00:10:28.200 --> 00:10:30.200 it works, They're. 177 00:10:29.960 --> 00:10:36.080 All write right, But just flicking through I kind of 178 00:10:36.200 --> 00:10:39.279 I found it quite interesting his fascination with the theater 179 00:10:40.120 --> 00:10:43.480 and the performances and that sort of really. 180 00:10:43.879 --> 00:10:45.399 So I've got lots of kids around at the moment. 181 00:10:48.639 --> 00:10:54.639 Yeah, just being really like emotionally invested in these theatrical performances. 182 00:10:54.799 --> 00:11:00.120 Just Luke, can you take your Pokemon somewhere else? Do 183 00:11:00.159 --> 00:11:01.399 you do courses on Pokemons? 184 00:11:03.399 --> 00:11:03.600 Yeah? 185 00:11:03.639 --> 00:11:04.919 Give it time, give it time. 186 00:11:08.159 --> 00:11:08.360 Yeah. 187 00:11:08.399 --> 00:11:10.759 And I just thought like, in a similar way, how 188 00:11:10.799 --> 00:11:15.919 much we watch TV shows or films and things for entertainment, 189 00:11:15.960 --> 00:11:18.320 and we we love them but hate them for the 190 00:11:18.320 --> 00:11:22.840 emotions that they bring out of us. Yeah, I think 191 00:11:22.879 --> 00:11:26.720 it's I guess it's similar in this, you know, it's 192 00:11:26.840 --> 00:11:31.679 like fifteen hundred years ago more similar. Similar entertainment can 193 00:11:32.240 --> 00:11:34.879 bring out a similar response in human kind. 194 00:11:34.960 --> 00:11:38.240 We're not all that different. No, that's absolutely true that 195 00:11:38.320 --> 00:11:41.279 human nature has not fundamentally change, and even the ways 196 00:11:41.279 --> 00:11:44.240 that we engage in entertainment is not fundamentally change. I 197 00:11:44.279 --> 00:11:47.159 mean it's changed in form, but not so much in substance. 198 00:11:47.639 --> 00:11:51.039 And I do think he makes some important points there 199 00:11:51.080 --> 00:11:56.399 regarding the theater, regarding you know, literature that he was 200 00:11:56.440 --> 00:12:00.120 taught to, you know, to pity, you know that the 201 00:12:00.159 --> 00:12:03.600 characters in the play, to mourn for these characters, these 202 00:12:03.600 --> 00:12:07.720 fictional characters. But that's kind of where it ended. The 203 00:12:07.799 --> 00:12:10.720 idea of Catharsis is that you're supposed to sort of 204 00:12:10.759 --> 00:12:12.919 let something out in a way that allows you to 205 00:12:13.000 --> 00:12:16.559 actually better integrate your own psyche together. But what he 206 00:12:16.679 --> 00:12:18.759 was doing, and what we often tend to do, is, 207 00:12:18.879 --> 00:12:20.840 I mean, we might sympathize with a you know, some 208 00:12:20.879 --> 00:12:24.080 situation in a show we're watching, but we don't take 209 00:12:24.080 --> 00:12:28.120 that step further and actually recognize what this means for us. 210 00:12:28.279 --> 00:12:30.559 We don't mourn for ourselves in the appropriate way. We 211 00:12:30.759 --> 00:12:33.919 don't sorrow for ourselves in the appropriate way, And so 212 00:12:33.960 --> 00:12:36.720 I do think he makes some pretty important points regarding 213 00:12:36.759 --> 00:12:38.440 the way that we engage with entertainment. 214 00:12:40.840 --> 00:12:46.240 Yeah, well, I'll keep skin reading. 215 00:12:47.679 --> 00:12:50.799 Perfect perfect, all right, Chase, what do you have for us? 216 00:12:51.960 --> 00:12:53.720 Yeah? I like that. 217 00:12:55.720 --> 00:12:57.759 His kind of use on the plays and break him 218 00:12:57.799 --> 00:13:00.480 down why I enjoyed it and kind of why people 219 00:13:01.679 --> 00:13:02.840 he thought people enjoyed it. 220 00:13:06.000 --> 00:13:07.080 How he just talks. 221 00:13:06.840 --> 00:13:11.279 About how is it that a man wants to be 222 00:13:11.360 --> 00:13:14.000 made sad by the side of tragic sufferings that he 223 00:13:14.039 --> 00:13:19.120 could not bear his own person. I think he definitely 224 00:13:19.120 --> 00:13:23.639 picks on something good where sometimes we almost want to 225 00:13:23.639 --> 00:13:28.399 see like a sometimes like a train wreck or something 226 00:13:28.480 --> 00:13:31.320 go bad in somebody else's life that we can pity them, 227 00:13:31.399 --> 00:13:34.639 but also kind of realized, like which is something that's 228 00:13:35.080 --> 00:13:37.480 a bad feeling to have, But you're like, you know, like, oh, 229 00:13:37.559 --> 00:13:43.360 other people go through suffering too, right, And it's it's 230 00:13:43.399 --> 00:13:49.480 weird that we feel that way sometimes, And he later 231 00:13:49.519 --> 00:13:52.799 on says, may it be that whereas no one wants 232 00:13:52.840 --> 00:13:55.759 to be miserable, there is real pleasure in pitying others, 233 00:13:57.600 --> 00:14:00.000 and we love their sorrows because without them we should 234 00:14:00.159 --> 00:14:06.200 have nothing. We should have nothing to pity. Yeah, And 235 00:14:06.240 --> 00:14:09.080 then he follows it up with some imagery of kind 236 00:14:09.080 --> 00:14:14.000 of not wanting them to bite too deep the sorrows, 237 00:14:14.039 --> 00:14:18.360 but just to scratch his heart basically causes information and 238 00:14:18.399 --> 00:14:23.720 sores and us flowing and just kind of pondering if 239 00:14:23.720 --> 00:14:26.039 that's even a life to have, you know, the life 240 00:14:26.039 --> 00:14:29.480 that he was living, was it even a life? 241 00:14:30.679 --> 00:14:30.960 Cool? 242 00:14:32.440 --> 00:14:36.159 Yeah, it's just it's a great commentary on the superficial. 243 00:14:36.320 --> 00:14:39.840 He talks about how, you know, he used to pity 244 00:14:39.960 --> 00:14:42.720 characters in a stage play who lost something that made 245 00:14:42.720 --> 00:14:47.000 them happy, but then he learned that, no, what I 246 00:14:47.039 --> 00:14:49.840 need to pity is not just when people lose things 247 00:14:49.840 --> 00:14:52.360 that make them happy. Oftentimes, do I need to do 248 00:14:52.399 --> 00:14:56.679 is pity people because they're happy, he says, But today 249 00:14:56.759 --> 00:14:59.559 I have more pity for the sinner getting enjoyment from 250 00:14:59.559 --> 00:15:02.480 his sin, then when he suffers the torment from the 251 00:15:02.519 --> 00:15:05.720 loss of pleasure which is ultimately destructive, and the loss 252 00:15:05.720 --> 00:15:09.200 of happiness, which is only misery. This is clearly the 253 00:15:09.240 --> 00:15:12.519 truer compassion. But the sorrow I feel him gives me 254 00:15:12.720 --> 00:15:15.720 no pleasure. And so, you know, he used to feel 255 00:15:15.720 --> 00:15:17.279 sorry for people when you know they lose the things 256 00:15:17.279 --> 00:15:20.720 that make them happy. Now he sorrows for people who, 257 00:15:20.960 --> 00:15:24.879 in their happiness don't recognize their misery, don't recognize their sin, 258 00:15:25.120 --> 00:15:27.840 because it's exactly where he was, right, he didn't recognize 259 00:15:27.919 --> 00:15:30.399 what his misery truly was. And so now he has 260 00:15:30.440 --> 00:15:34.600 a new kind of perspective. You know, it makes me 261 00:15:34.639 --> 00:15:36.679 think of and you know, it's getting a little bitead 262 00:15:36.720 --> 00:15:39.840 to the next course that I'll be teaching. But you know, 263 00:15:39.960 --> 00:15:42.639 to Plato's allegory of the cave that you know, when 264 00:15:42.679 --> 00:15:46.840 the guy gets out that now he has not pride 265 00:15:47.840 --> 00:15:50.120 in that judgment of those who are still stuck in 266 00:15:50.159 --> 00:15:52.879 the cave, but now he has pity for them. He 267 00:15:52.919 --> 00:15:55.799 has compassion for them, and he's able to willingly now 268 00:15:55.840 --> 00:15:58.399 to send back into the darkness out of pity for 269 00:15:58.440 --> 00:16:02.399 those who are where he was. And so you know, 270 00:16:02.519 --> 00:16:04.720 we see this idea in Plato, but I think even 271 00:16:04.720 --> 00:16:08.320 more profoundly in Augustine, of pity for those who don't 272 00:16:08.360 --> 00:16:12.720 recognize their pitiable state. You know, Augustine is an interesting 273 00:16:12.799 --> 00:16:16.720 kind of figure that on one hand, he's obviously interested 274 00:16:16.759 --> 00:16:20.559 in dogma, he's obviously interested in philosophy. He's going to 275 00:16:20.600 --> 00:16:24.600 advocate for, you know, taking out certain sects of heretics, 276 00:16:25.240 --> 00:16:27.440 and so on one hand he is a very theologically 277 00:16:27.480 --> 00:16:30.080 driven guy, but also as you read him like, he 278 00:16:30.159 --> 00:16:34.600 reads as somebody of a contrite and broken spirit remade 279 00:16:34.639 --> 00:16:37.879 by God. And so you have both strength as well 280 00:16:37.919 --> 00:16:50.639 as real meekness, which obviously those aren't opposites, rightly understood, 281 00:16:51.279 --> 00:16:53.559 And you know, Kyle mentioned in the chat here this 282 00:16:53.639 --> 00:16:56.320 line that's had underlined as well, the very limit of 283 00:16:56.399 --> 00:17:01.240 human blindness is to glory in being blind. We celebrate 284 00:17:01.279 --> 00:17:03.480 the very things that are handicapping us and keeping us 285 00:17:03.480 --> 00:17:09.160 from fulfilling our purpose. Which, again, because Augustine's idea that 286 00:17:09.240 --> 00:17:12.400 evil is principally in the will, we decide to be blind, 287 00:17:12.480 --> 00:17:14.640 essentially we glory in it. We don't want to be healed. 288 00:17:18.279 --> 00:17:19.720 I think he does a good job in sort of 289 00:17:19.799 --> 00:17:25.720 creating that delineation of what is uh well ordered pity 290 00:17:25.799 --> 00:17:30.920 and what isn't because like you should never he says, 291 00:17:31.000 --> 00:17:36.519 only in the impossible event of goodwill beingnevolent malevolent could 292 00:17:36.559 --> 00:17:38.599 a man who is truly and sincerely failed with pity 293 00:17:38.720 --> 00:17:40.839 desired that there should be miserable people for him too 294 00:17:40.839 --> 00:17:50.519 pity And so it's like, I don't know how to 295 00:17:50.599 --> 00:17:53.200 articulate it. But it's just it's just the point of 296 00:17:53.279 --> 00:17:57.119 like goodness descends to it. But yeah, I don't know. 297 00:17:57.240 --> 00:18:00.480 It kind of seems like an obvious, obvious state. Maybe 298 00:18:00.519 --> 00:18:05.640 I'm just wowed by his words, but just in terms 299 00:18:05.640 --> 00:18:08.640 of like how how twisted it is to like, it's 300 00:18:08.680 --> 00:18:13.240 a twisted thing to almost to desire that people are 301 00:18:13.240 --> 00:18:16.480 in the situation so that you could serve them like 302 00:18:16.519 --> 00:18:21.119 the well the well ordered desire is that that they 303 00:18:21.279 --> 00:18:25.440 they are they're off or they're in right relationship with God, 304 00:18:25.480 --> 00:18:27.440 and that they're not miserable. 305 00:18:27.519 --> 00:18:32.440 I suppose, Yeah, I think that's that's an important point, 306 00:18:32.559 --> 00:18:34.720 and it's it kind of continues the same theme of 307 00:18:35.640 --> 00:18:37.640 being in love with love but not knowing the proper 308 00:18:37.680 --> 00:18:41.519 object of appreciating pity, but not knowing that the the 309 00:18:41.559 --> 00:18:45.839 object of pity is wellness of somebody else. You know, 310 00:18:45.920 --> 00:18:48.720 I've I've brought in Talkien here now to bring it. 311 00:18:48.799 --> 00:18:50.640 Lewis mands you until we not till we have faces. 312 00:18:50.680 --> 00:18:53.920 When Orwall says of Psyche, you know, I wish I 313 00:18:53.960 --> 00:18:55.720 were or I wish he was my slave so I 314 00:18:55.759 --> 00:18:58.519 could set her free. It's like this this twisted kind 315 00:18:58.519 --> 00:19:01.960 of idea where I want to feel like I had 316 00:19:01.960 --> 00:19:05.240 the moral superiority by expressing pity, but I don't actually 317 00:19:05.240 --> 00:19:09.480 want them to be well, it's yeah, no, yeah. 318 00:19:09.599 --> 00:19:15.599 It's also interesting this sort of slavery theme that runs 319 00:19:15.599 --> 00:19:18.480 through right because at the end of what is this 320 00:19:18.599 --> 00:19:22.319 section one of book one, when it's got the Roman numeral, 321 00:19:22.359 --> 00:19:24.519 I don't know what's secondly called, but the last sentence, 322 00:19:24.880 --> 00:19:27.519 I wore my chains with bliss, but with torment too, 323 00:19:27.519 --> 00:19:29.799 before I was scorged with the red hot rods of jealousy, 324 00:19:29.839 --> 00:19:33.240 with suspicions and fears and times and quarrelds, And I 325 00:19:33.640 --> 00:19:36.720 don't want to read that out of context. But then 326 00:19:36.799 --> 00:19:43.920 later on he goes on and he says, I wandered 327 00:19:43.960 --> 00:19:46.359 from you and my arrogance, going ever further away from you, 328 00:19:46.440 --> 00:19:48.279 loving my way and not your ways, in love with 329 00:19:48.279 --> 00:19:52.440 my runaway liberty, which my footnote says is an allusion 330 00:19:52.440 --> 00:19:55.599 to being a runaway slave. And so it's interesting because 331 00:19:55.599 --> 00:20:01.400 it's almost it's like these passions for for a disordered pity, 332 00:20:01.559 --> 00:20:07.640 these passions for disordered friendship. He likens them to like 333 00:20:07.720 --> 00:20:12.559 the slave masters of him, it seems almost. And but 334 00:20:12.599 --> 00:20:15.799 it's also interesting because he's he talks he's glorying in 335 00:20:15.880 --> 00:20:18.799 that in that slavery, because he says he wears his 336 00:20:18.880 --> 00:20:22.680 chains with bliss and that that he is in love 337 00:20:22.720 --> 00:20:27.000 with his runaway liberty. And it's like, I know, my 338 00:20:27.079 --> 00:20:31.799 favorite quote from the Oxford Classics comes in book nine, 339 00:20:32.279 --> 00:20:35.640 and it's how sweet it became to me to be 340 00:20:35.880 --> 00:20:38.759 without the sweets of folly. What I want, feared to lose, 341 00:20:38.799 --> 00:20:41.880 became a delight to dismiss. That's in book nine. That's 342 00:20:41.880 --> 00:20:45.400 the Oxtra Classics translation. And as you see the progression 343 00:20:45.519 --> 00:20:49.720 of he he's loving his chains, so that he's loving 344 00:20:50.359 --> 00:20:53.599 to be without his chains, as as his affections are 345 00:20:53.599 --> 00:20:55.640 becoming better ordered throughout the confessions. 346 00:20:59.440 --> 00:20:59.880 That's right. 347 00:21:00.240 --> 00:21:04.440 I thought this portion was that he was like the 348 00:21:04.480 --> 00:21:07.400 first the first one is basically that he's like chained 349 00:21:07.440 --> 00:21:08.119 to his loss. 350 00:21:09.839 --> 00:21:10.839 But then later on when. 351 00:21:10.680 --> 00:21:12.920 It talks about like the runaway slave, it seemed like 352 00:21:12.960 --> 00:21:16.160 he was he's moving further away from you, loving my 353 00:21:16.240 --> 00:21:19.359 way and not your ways, in love with my runaway liberty. 354 00:21:19.480 --> 00:21:25.759 Just meaning like, yeah, I'm not I'm not claiming that. Sorry, 355 00:21:25.799 --> 00:21:28.000 I'm not claiming that he's referencing the same thing. I'm 356 00:21:28.079 --> 00:21:30.559 just making the observation of their There seems to be 357 00:21:30.559 --> 00:21:33.920 that narrative theme that he seemed to paint the image. 358 00:21:34.759 --> 00:21:36.400 Yeah, because I think this one's like more of. 359 00:21:37.880 --> 00:21:41.200 Like a disobedient slave running away enjoying the little bit 360 00:21:41.200 --> 00:21:45.640 of liberty that you have, rather than like staying with 361 00:21:45.720 --> 00:21:53.160 the faithful master whatever. Yeah. 362 00:21:53.519 --> 00:21:56.440 Yeah, And and the way that you frame that, Cole, 363 00:21:56.480 --> 00:21:59.000 it reminds me of a quote from the City of 364 00:21:59.039 --> 00:22:02.920 God where Augustine says, the good man, though a slave, 365 00:22:03.119 --> 00:22:06.039 is free. The wicked, though he reigns as a slave, 366 00:22:06.480 --> 00:22:08.400 and not the slave of a single man, what is 367 00:22:08.440 --> 00:22:11.119 far worse the slave of as many masters as he 368 00:22:11.160 --> 00:22:16.000 has vices, And so again maintaining that this slave kind 369 00:22:16.039 --> 00:22:20.079 of language, that the good man may in fact be 370 00:22:20.119 --> 00:22:22.400 an actual slave, but he's free because he's living in 371 00:22:22.440 --> 00:22:25.839 accord with the purpose of human nature. He has his 372 00:22:25.920 --> 00:22:29.759 loves rightly oriented. Whereas the bad man, you know, he 373 00:22:29.799 --> 00:22:32.920 may be reigning, but he's he's a servant to his lust. 374 00:22:32.960 --> 00:22:35.359 He's not in control of his own passions, and that's 375 00:22:35.359 --> 00:22:38.839 not freedom, And that I think speaks pretty directly to 376 00:22:39.319 --> 00:22:44.319 our modern understandings of freedom. I encounter this all the 377 00:22:44.359 --> 00:22:47.799 time teaching philosophy, at a public university. You know, I'll 378 00:22:47.799 --> 00:22:52.079 ask students, you know, what does freedom mean? And with 379 00:22:52.240 --> 00:22:54.440 various wording, they basically say freedom is being able to 380 00:22:54.480 --> 00:22:58.039 do whatever you want to. But then, you know, I 381 00:22:58.039 --> 00:23:01.440 follow up with, Okay, why do you want what you want? 382 00:23:02.240 --> 00:23:05.240 And if you want the wrong things that are constantly 383 00:23:05.319 --> 00:23:08.160 leading you to a less free kind of life, you're 384 00:23:08.200 --> 00:23:10.720 becoming addicted to your own vices. Is that actual freedom? 385 00:23:11.240 --> 00:23:12.759 I mean, I take a little bit longer to lead 386 00:23:12.799 --> 00:23:15.559 them to in that direction, but eventually, you know, it 387 00:23:15.640 --> 00:23:18.119 starts to become obvious that simply doing whatever you want 388 00:23:18.240 --> 00:23:20.720 is not freedom because very often we want the wrong things. 389 00:23:20.920 --> 00:23:22.519 You know, Plato says, one of the worst things that 390 00:23:22.519 --> 00:23:25.000 can happen to you is you want the wrong things 391 00:23:25.240 --> 00:23:25.960 and you get them. 392 00:23:28.160 --> 00:23:29.559 Mike Tyson says that too. 393 00:23:30.759 --> 00:23:32.480 Well, Plato probably got it from Mike Tyson. 394 00:23:33.519 --> 00:23:35.759 Probably great minds think alike. 395 00:23:36.559 --> 00:23:45.680 Yes, obviously that that great philosopher. Mike Tyson reminds me 396 00:23:45.759 --> 00:23:48.000 of video. I don't remember. It was a couple of 397 00:23:48.039 --> 00:23:50.720 years ago or so, when it's like a kid, it's 398 00:23:50.759 --> 00:23:52.640 like a six year old kid or something was asking 399 00:23:52.799 --> 00:23:55.880 interviewing Mike Tyson and asked him like what's the meeting 400 00:23:55.960 --> 00:23:59.359 of life or something, And he just said to this kid, 401 00:24:00.079 --> 00:24:02.119