WEBVTT 1 00:00:00.960 --> 00:00:02.879 Hey Richard, Hey Carl, what do you know? 2 00:00:03.120 --> 00:00:06.679 Well, I know that our friend Michelle Rubusta Monte is 3 00:00:06.719 --> 00:00:08.880 with us to tell us about something that's going on 4 00:00:09.519 --> 00:00:11.199 adjacent to DEV Intersection. 5 00:00:11.240 --> 00:00:15.560 What is it? It's cybersecurity Intersection. Let's let Michelle tell 6 00:00:15.599 --> 00:00:16.199 that story. 7 00:00:16.679 --> 00:00:21.320 Hey Michelle, Hey Carl, Hey Richard, how are you. 8 00:00:21.000 --> 00:00:22.839 Tell us about cybersecurity Intersection? 9 00:00:23.480 --> 00:00:26.920 Well, so, Richard and I are partnering with the group 10 00:00:27.000 --> 00:00:30.359 that does DEV Intersection and next Gen AI, and we 11 00:00:30.600 --> 00:00:34.200 are putting on a new conference dedicated to one hundred 12 00:00:34.240 --> 00:00:40.000 percent security focused topics. And I mean, honestly, the lineup 13 00:00:40.039 --> 00:00:43.679 of speakers is incredible. We have Paula A. Jenis, who's 14 00:00:43.719 --> 00:00:47.600 here from Poland and does keynotes all over the world 15 00:00:47.719 --> 00:00:50.600 and is one of the top rated RSA speakers and 16 00:00:50.640 --> 00:00:53.159 black hat speaker. We're so lucky to have her. But 17 00:00:53.240 --> 00:00:56.000 she's not only keynoting, she's got a workshop teaches you 18 00:00:56.039 --> 00:01:01.039 about protecting your environments against hackers and shows you about 19 00:01:01.280 --> 00:01:03.719 how to you know, do attacks so that you can 20 00:01:03.759 --> 00:01:07.840 prevent them. It's pretty cool and sessions like that as well. 21 00:01:07.840 --> 00:01:10.799 But we also have speakers from Microsoft. We have we 22 00:01:10.840 --> 00:01:15.120 have speakers that specialize in you know secure coding practices, 23 00:01:15.640 --> 00:01:20.439 Azure security, zero trust architectures on Azure uh and people 24 00:01:20.439 --> 00:01:23.519 who do decision maker tracks, so things around governance policy 25 00:01:23.560 --> 00:01:26.200 and you know how to how to manage and your 26 00:01:26.200 --> 00:01:29.480 production operations keep them secure. So it's an amazing group 27 00:01:29.519 --> 00:01:31.040 of speakers, really excited about it. 28 00:01:31.120 --> 00:01:33.560 And I think I can count myself among the group 29 00:01:33.599 --> 00:01:34.599 of speakers there. 30 00:01:35.040 --> 00:01:37.120 Well, yes you can. That is great. 31 00:01:37.480 --> 00:01:42.159 Yeah, I'm doing a securing Blazer Server applications talk and 32 00:01:42.239 --> 00:01:45.959 also I think we're doing a Security this Week live 33 00:01:46.040 --> 00:01:48.480 show there somewhere that is correct. 34 00:01:48.719 --> 00:01:51.200 Yeah, we'll be recording Security this Week Live. We're going 35 00:01:51.239 --> 00:01:54.719 to have a great panel with some folks. The interesting 36 00:01:54.719 --> 00:01:57.920 thing here is we don't really have a Microsoft and 37 00:01:58.000 --> 00:02:02.120 dot net and Azure focused toecurity conference yet, so that's 38 00:02:02.159 --> 00:02:05.159 the reason we're putting this on as well. You know 39 00:02:05.200 --> 00:02:08.280 there are other security conferences, but they have a spread 40 00:02:08.280 --> 00:02:10.439 of topics that maybe don't focus on the things you 41 00:02:10.520 --> 00:02:13.080 do day to day. And you know this overlaps with 42 00:02:13.199 --> 00:02:17.560 again our community of folks that specialize in again dot net, 43 00:02:17.680 --> 00:02:21.039 Azure and yeah, they need to keep it secure too. 44 00:02:21.280 --> 00:02:22.520 So with tons of. 45 00:02:22.520 --> 00:02:26.840 Talks, cyber Intersection is part of a trio of conferences 46 00:02:26.840 --> 00:02:29.479 we're doing. They have Intersection alongside the Next Gen AI 47 00:02:29.560 --> 00:02:34.479 Conference all in Orlando the week of October fifth through tenth. 48 00:02:34.479 --> 00:02:38.039 That's workshops and the main conference. And you can get 49 00:02:38.039 --> 00:02:40.800 a special registration code if you sign up through Cybersecurity 50 00:02:40.919 --> 00:02:42.360 Intersection dot com. 51 00:02:42.680 --> 00:02:47.400 Yeah, so if you sign up at Cybersecurity Intersection dot com, 52 00:02:47.599 --> 00:02:52.520 then you put in this code, so Alliance cyber three 53 00:02:52.599 --> 00:02:56.319 hundred and you'll get three hundred off the entry price. 54 00:02:56.560 --> 00:02:59.680 So that's a special code that only works at cybersecurity 55 00:03:00.599 --> 00:03:04.439 dot com. And then you have access to all the conferences. 56 00:03:04.479 --> 00:03:09.400 Like Richard said, Wow, that's cool. Thanks Michelle. I'm looking 57 00:03:09.439 --> 00:03:24.120 forward to it and I'll see you there. Hey, guess what, 58 00:03:24.199 --> 00:03:26.560 it's dot net rocks all over again. 59 00:03:27.080 --> 00:03:29.199 I'm Carl Franklin, an amateur Campbell. 60 00:03:29.360 --> 00:03:33.120 We're at episode nineteen hundred and sixty nine. 61 00:03:33.520 --> 00:03:36.120 The first time I've looked at history and thought we 62 00:03:36.199 --> 00:03:38.639 probably should do a geek out all by itself because 63 00:03:38.639 --> 00:03:40.879 this is all by itself on this year. It's the 64 00:03:41.039 --> 00:03:43.039 craziest year, just out of it. 65 00:03:43.120 --> 00:03:46.840 Yeah, completely madness, cultural shift, end of the sixties. It's 66 00:03:46.960 --> 00:03:50.039 a big deal, no kidding. It was a pivotabal moment. Yeah, 67 00:03:50.120 --> 00:03:51.159 well we might as well do that. 68 00:03:51.280 --> 00:03:52.599 Now you want to go right into it. 69 00:03:52.680 --> 00:03:54.680 Yeah, what happened in nineteen sixty nine. I'm going to 70 00:03:54.800 --> 00:03:58.479 let you talk about the space stuff because it's pretty significant. 71 00:03:59.000 --> 00:04:00.080 Why don't you start with that? 72 00:04:00.240 --> 00:04:02.400 Yeah? Sure, I mean we're talking about the Moon landing. 73 00:04:02.520 --> 00:04:06.879 So Apollo nine, which tested the lunar module in lower orbit, 74 00:04:07.080 --> 00:04:10.159 Apollo ten, which flew all the way to the Moon, 75 00:04:10.639 --> 00:04:13.560 practiced the landing, got within fifteen kilometers of the surface, 76 00:04:13.599 --> 00:04:16.759 and then aborted to test the abort systems. And then 77 00:04:17.480 --> 00:04:20.360 in July of nineteen sixty nine, the Apollo landing A 78 00:04:20.519 --> 00:04:25.720 follow eleven and Neil Armstrong and that other guy Buzz 79 00:04:26.000 --> 00:04:30.480 still good old Buzz Buzz Buzz, who was also like 80 00:04:30.519 --> 00:04:34.800 the guy He's the one who said magnificent desolation describing 81 00:04:34.839 --> 00:04:39.639 the Moon, and they pulled off this remarkable mission again 82 00:04:39.839 --> 00:04:45.000 at ridiculously high risk. Yes, that vehicle, the lunar lawn 83 00:04:45.160 --> 00:04:48.160 module was the limiting factor. It could support two people 84 00:04:48.160 --> 00:04:50.319 for three days, but it took more than three days 85 00:04:50.319 --> 00:04:54.560 to stage your rescue, So anything had failed anywhere in 86 00:04:54.560 --> 00:04:59.439 that vehicle, it was not survivable. Neil happened to bump 87 00:04:59.800 --> 00:05:03.279 the a breaker on his way out of the lunar 88 00:05:03.319 --> 00:05:05.639 module and broke that breaker. That breaker happened to be 89 00:05:05.680 --> 00:05:10.759 the power connection for the ascent engine. Ouch turned out 90 00:05:10.800 --> 00:05:13.000 that the shape of the breaker cap that would have 91 00:05:13.040 --> 00:05:15.240 pinned it back down was exactly the same shape as 92 00:05:15.319 --> 00:05:19.279 a felt pen cap, which Buzz happened to have found 93 00:05:19.519 --> 00:05:21.240 jam did in there, and that's the only reason they 94 00:05:21.240 --> 00:05:23.319 were able to get back. That's so cool. I'm sure 95 00:05:23.319 --> 00:05:25.199 they would have come up with another solution. 96 00:05:25.079 --> 00:05:27.720 Well, and Apollo of their team would come later. And 97 00:05:28.399 --> 00:05:31.720 that was even so much innovation in order to get 98 00:05:31.720 --> 00:05:34.319 those guys on so much of emergency to find it, 99 00:05:34.399 --> 00:05:38.160 find a way to survive. Not to ignore the Soviets, 100 00:05:38.199 --> 00:05:40.959 but they were behind at that point. They did their 101 00:05:41.000 --> 00:05:47.360 first in orbit rendezvous that same year, but the real 102 00:05:47.360 --> 00:05:49.920 accomnchihment with the first successful landing on Venus with the 103 00:05:50.000 --> 00:05:53.279 Venera six mission that made it to the surface of Venus, 104 00:05:53.279 --> 00:05:58.639 sent back footage for about twenty minutes and then milting it. 105 00:06:00.720 --> 00:06:04.399 Other aerospace news again to ninety sixty ninety Insane seven 106 00:06:04.480 --> 00:06:08.920 forty seven's first test flight and first commercial flight in 107 00:06:09.040 --> 00:06:13.079 the same year, go Boeing also Concord's first test flight. 108 00:06:13.160 --> 00:06:16.120 Nineteen sixty nine. It's crazy, but for all of us 109 00:06:16.519 --> 00:06:20.040 being computer people and what you are doing right now. 110 00:06:20.800 --> 00:06:23.519 This was the year that arpanet was turned on for 111 00:06:23.560 --> 00:06:26.439 the very first time. So this was a packet switching 112 00:06:26.480 --> 00:06:30.839 network precursor to TCPIP was all about decentralization, no central help, 113 00:06:30.959 --> 00:06:34.720 multiple routing routes. Although the first messages attempt a first 114 00:06:34.720 --> 00:06:37.319 message attempted to be transmit across the network got as 115 00:06:37.319 --> 00:06:42.279 far as L and O in login before crashing. Yeah, 116 00:06:42.639 --> 00:06:45.480 still work needed to be done. But all of that 117 00:06:46.199 --> 00:06:47.000 in nineteen. 118 00:06:46.759 --> 00:06:50.360 And of course, in terms of culture, the Beatles' last 119 00:06:50.399 --> 00:06:54.399 public performance on the roof of Apple Records on January thirtieth, 120 00:06:55.240 --> 00:06:58.439 And did you watch Get Back? Yes, the remake of 121 00:06:59.439 --> 00:07:04.720 it so a great movie. Great movie and the way 122 00:07:04.759 --> 00:07:06.720 that they cleaned up the footage and everything. It was 123 00:07:06.800 --> 00:07:09.959 so much better than the quote unquote Let It Be movie, 124 00:07:09.959 --> 00:07:15.639 which was just horrible quality. Woodstock, the Woodstock Festival in 125 00:07:15.720 --> 00:07:21.879 August in New York, Upstate New York was a big deal. 126 00:07:22.079 --> 00:07:22.879 Yep. Yeah. 127 00:07:23.480 --> 00:07:29.519 In politics, Vietnam War escalated, significant anti war protests occurring 128 00:07:30.399 --> 00:07:37.839 across the US. The Libyan coup September one, Marmarga Daffi 129 00:07:37.959 --> 00:07:43.879 ousted King Idris the first ho Chi Minh died September second, 130 00:07:43.920 --> 00:07:48.040 at the age of seventy nine. And there was a 131 00:07:48.079 --> 00:07:51.480 few other things. But wow, what a year. Yeah, crazy years, 132 00:07:51.519 --> 00:07:54.439 extraordinary year. And we were two, so we were just 133 00:07:54.839 --> 00:07:57.199 becoming conscious of everything around us. 134 00:07:57.279 --> 00:08:00.439 Not really, yeah, barely. Oh they lift off of Apollo 135 00:08:00.439 --> 00:08:03.879 eleven was July sixteenth, my birthday. Yeah. Oh so I 136 00:08:03.920 --> 00:08:05.800 turned two as the rocket was taking. 137 00:08:05.680 --> 00:08:08.920 That is so cool. Random yeah, random, but very cool. 138 00:08:10.160 --> 00:08:13.759 All right, so let's do better? No framework roll the music? 139 00:08:13.800 --> 00:08:22.519 Awesome? All right, man, what do you got? 140 00:08:22.800 --> 00:08:28.040 I found this really cool trending repo on GitHub. Web 141 00:08:28.040 --> 00:08:32.240 gooat to web gooat a deliberately insecure web application. 142 00:08:32.480 --> 00:08:33.279 Oh nice. 143 00:08:33.399 --> 00:08:38.240 It's maintained by OASP designed to teach web application security lessons. 144 00:08:39.039 --> 00:08:42.159 Big disclaimers while running. 145 00:08:41.960 --> 00:08:43.200 Do not deploy this. 146 00:08:43.960 --> 00:08:46.559 Don't even be on the internet when you're running it. 147 00:08:46.679 --> 00:08:50.480 Oh wow, it's a demonstration of common service side application flaws. 148 00:08:50.759 --> 00:08:50.879 Right. 149 00:08:51.000 --> 00:08:53.200 The exercises are intended to be used by people to 150 00:08:53.320 --> 00:08:57.279 learn about application security and pen testing techniques, and so 151 00:08:57.440 --> 00:09:00.279 warning one is, while running this program, your machine will 152 00:09:00.320 --> 00:09:03.960 be extremely vulnerable to attack. You should disconnect from the 153 00:09:03.960 --> 00:09:08.120 Internet while using this program. Webgoats default configuration binds to 154 00:09:08.200 --> 00:09:12.919 local hosts to minimize exposure. And of course this program 155 00:09:13.000 --> 00:09:15.320 is for educational purposes only. 156 00:09:15.720 --> 00:09:15.879 Right. 157 00:09:16.440 --> 00:09:20.200 If you attempt these techniques without authorization, you are very 158 00:09:20.480 --> 00:09:23.720 likely to get caught. If you are caught engaging in 159 00:09:23.919 --> 00:09:28.159 unauthorized hacking, most companies will fire you, claiming that you 160 00:09:28.200 --> 00:09:31.039 were doing security research. Will not work? Is that as 161 00:09:31.080 --> 00:09:34.120 the first thing that all hackers claim? How about that? 162 00:09:34.320 --> 00:09:37.759 Yep, don't do it. I mean, you know we're big 163 00:09:37.799 --> 00:09:40.440 on Troy hunts. You know, pen test yourself, you know, 164 00:09:40.559 --> 00:09:43.360 hack yourself, but do it with permission. Let people know 165 00:09:43.399 --> 00:09:45.919 what you're doing. You know, your intent should be good, 166 00:09:46.639 --> 00:09:47.879 be very careful. 167 00:09:47.600 --> 00:09:50.240 And you know, like they say, don't be on the internet, 168 00:09:50.360 --> 00:09:53.480 don't expose yourself. Yeah, you can do all this without 169 00:09:53.879 --> 00:09:54.879 added risk. 170 00:09:54.960 --> 00:09:58.720 There are tools sweeping ips all the time looking for vulnerabilities. 171 00:09:58.759 --> 00:10:01.559 You will not be it will not be long. Yeah, 172 00:10:01.600 --> 00:10:04.759 and that's it. Who's talking to us today? Richard Grabbing 173 00:10:04.799 --> 00:10:06.799 comment off a show with nineteen fifty four, the one 174 00:10:06.799 --> 00:10:09.200 we did a build with our friend w O'Brian talking 175 00:10:09.240 --> 00:10:12.919 about how AI has come to playwright with the playwright 176 00:10:13.039 --> 00:10:16.480 MCP which I think you and I both really enjoyed. Yeah, 177 00:10:16.519 --> 00:10:19.080 this is a funny comment. This is from Karthik VK 178 00:10:19.279 --> 00:10:21.639 who said in the podcast was mentioned that Microsoft should 179 00:10:21.639 --> 00:10:25.000 be leading the agent space, but I argue they already were, 180 00:10:25.320 --> 00:10:28.200 just without getting recognitional rewards. Microsoft has consistently been in 181 00:10:28.240 --> 00:10:30.440 first areas but rarely reaps the benefits. I don't know 182 00:10:30.440 --> 00:10:32.080 if I agree with you on this, Karthik, but let's 183 00:10:32.080 --> 00:10:35.480 see your argument. Take Copilot studio. It's a solid platform 184 00:10:35.519 --> 00:10:38.440 for building agents with real finesse. Semantic Kernel is another 185 00:10:38.519 --> 00:10:41.480 underrated gem, true enough, not easy to work with, but 186 00:10:41.559 --> 00:10:45.519 pretty powerful, letting developers convert existing applications into LLLM powered 187 00:10:45.559 --> 00:10:49.279 ones just by adding attributes using function calling in a 188 00:10:49.279 --> 00:10:52.440 well architected way. This is new for Microsoft. They were 189 00:10:52.480 --> 00:10:54.759 first with a touch based OS, but never got credit. 190 00:10:55.159 --> 00:10:58.000 That's definitely not true, you know, doubt They did a 191 00:10:58.039 --> 00:11:01.440 lot of experiments and built tablets early on and back 192 00:11:01.440 --> 00:11:03.799 in the XPE and so forth, but there were touch 193 00:11:03.840 --> 00:11:06.440 based interfaces. Heck, we talked about it on the show 194 00:11:06.440 --> 00:11:08.480 here going back to the sixties. So yeah, they've been 195 00:11:08.559 --> 00:11:11.440 around for a while. The much criticized Vista layout is 196 00:11:11.440 --> 00:11:13.720 now being embraced by Apple as the foundation for AR 197 00:11:13.759 --> 00:11:16.000 glasses of spatial interface. Yeah. I don't think Apple would 198 00:11:16.039 --> 00:11:20.360 coin it that way. Yeah. Wow. Yeah, the basic idea 199 00:11:20.360 --> 00:11:23.279 of bigger icons that give space for those kinds of interfaces. 200 00:11:23.320 --> 00:11:24.960 I don't know that you can copyright any of that. Yeah. 201 00:11:25.000 --> 00:11:27.879 Microsoft often builds foundational tech that shapes and ecosystem, but 202 00:11:27.960 --> 00:11:32.399 not always ways and build bring them glory. I think 203 00:11:32.720 --> 00:11:36.840 like all companies, Microsoft does allow experiments to happen and 204 00:11:36.879 --> 00:11:38.840 sometimes put them in the field, and sometimes they're too 205 00:11:38.840 --> 00:11:41.080 ahead of the market. You know, Apple may have built 206 00:11:41.120 --> 00:11:44.360 the iPhone, but they also built the Newton ten years before. 207 00:11:44.519 --> 00:11:47.919 Yeah, you can't say always this and never that. I mean, 208 00:11:48.080 --> 00:11:50.919 it's just not the way it works that. Microsoft has 209 00:11:50.960 --> 00:11:53.440 made some great contributions to tech over the years, and 210 00:11:53.480 --> 00:11:56.919 also some flops. So and so is Apple. It's just 211 00:11:57.039 --> 00:11:57.360 not a. 212 00:11:57.600 --> 00:12:00.320 I'm really disappointed to Courier tablet never shipped. You know, 213 00:12:00.519 --> 00:12:02.759 they they got to final prototype on that one before 214 00:12:02.759 --> 00:12:04.360 they pulled the plug on, which is two bad because 215 00:12:04.360 --> 00:12:06.399 it's it looked like an interesting machine. I not think 216 00:12:06.440 --> 00:12:08.519 that it would have succeeded, but I would have bought 217 00:12:08.519 --> 00:12:10.120 one I would have taken one up for a spin 218 00:12:10.200 --> 00:12:14.559 for sure. But yeah, Karthik, I think there's more research 219 00:12:14.639 --> 00:12:16.159 to be done if you want to see these different things. 220 00:12:16.159 --> 00:12:18.679 But I agree there's many technologies that get put out 221 00:12:18.720 --> 00:12:21.200 there but are put in the in front of people 222 00:12:21.200 --> 00:12:24.279 in a way that they necessarily embrace. If Microsoft says 223 00:12:24.360 --> 00:12:27.039 sinning for anything, it's not advocating for their own stuff 224 00:12:27.080 --> 00:12:30.480 as well as they possibly could. Often they're just building 225 00:12:30.519 --> 00:12:33.200 things and it gets out there, and whether or not 226 00:12:33.399 --> 00:12:36.159 people can see what it can do is another question entirely. Heck, 227 00:12:36.240 --> 00:12:38.080 half our shows are based on Hey, did you know 228 00:12:38.120 --> 00:12:42.440 what could do this? Yeah? Right? But that being said, 229 00:12:42.480 --> 00:12:44.200 thank you so much for your comment, and a coffee 230 00:12:44.240 --> 00:12:45.679 of music Cobuy is on its way to you. And 231 00:12:45.720 --> 00:12:47.320 if you'd like a copy of music Code, I read 232 00:12:47.320 --> 00:12:49.360 a comment on the website at dot NetRocks dot com 233 00:12:49.480 --> 00:12:51.480 or on the facebooks. We publish every show there, and 234 00:12:51.480 --> 00:12:53.120 if you comment there and we're reading the show, we'll 235 00:12:53.120 --> 00:12:54.240 send you a copy of music Code. 236 00:12:54.240 --> 00:12:56.759 By Before we get started with James here, I want 237 00:12:56.799 --> 00:12:59.159 to let everybody know that Jeff Fritz and I have 238 00:12:59.240 --> 00:13:02.159 a new YouTube show that we're doing in addition to 239 00:13:02.200 --> 00:13:05.360 Blazer puzzle, and we're probably going to alternate weeks, but 240 00:13:05.440 --> 00:13:09.200 it's called code It with AI. As you probably know 241 00:13:09.399 --> 00:13:13.080 and James certainly knows because he's his boss. There's a 242 00:13:13.120 --> 00:13:18.720 big mandate to do AI content for Microsoft Evangelism, you know, 243 00:13:18.799 --> 00:13:20.639 to because there's a lot of new stuff and there's 244 00:13:20.639 --> 00:13:23.679 a lot of things to understand, and so we wanted 245 00:13:23.720 --> 00:13:25.960 to take some of the stuff that he did in 246 00:13:26.120 --> 00:13:29.960 Copilot that John, which is his website of all these 247 00:13:30.000 --> 00:13:33.519 little tips and tricks for using Copilot and other things, 248 00:13:34.039 --> 00:13:36.759 and do videos exposing some of the things that we 249 00:13:36.799 --> 00:13:39.279 can do as dot net developers, not only to help 250 00:13:39.399 --> 00:13:43.440 us write code and publish software, but to incorporate AI 251 00:13:43.600 --> 00:13:49.000 into our applications. And so we started It's interesting you started. 252 00:13:49.080 --> 00:13:52.279 You talked about Playwright. We started with the playwright MC 253 00:13:53.240 --> 00:13:57.039 was it MCP? Yeah, yeah, we started with the Playwright 254 00:13:57.200 --> 00:14:02.200 MCP to create documentation for Copilot dot com and we 255 00:14:02.240 --> 00:14:07.240 did an individual studio code with the Sonnet four to 256 00:14:07.279 --> 00:14:12.600 oh and it was amazing. It basically was a very 257 00:14:12.639 --> 00:14:16.480 small prompt and it just created a user manual for 258 00:14:16.639 --> 00:14:21.399 Copilot dot John using playwright. So that's coded with AI 259 00:14:21.519 --> 00:14:24.080 dot com. If you want to check it out and 260 00:14:24.279 --> 00:14:26.840 we will do more and let us know. 261 00:14:27.320 --> 00:14:27.720 That's it. 262 00:14:27.879 --> 00:14:32.360 So let's bring James on. James Montemagne is an old 263 00:14:32.360 --> 00:14:36.759 friend of ours, a developer community lead at Microsoft focused 264 00:14:36.799 --> 00:14:41.240 on building community around and helping developers learn and adopt 265 00:14:41.320 --> 00:14:46.320 the latest frameworks, languages, and agentic developer tools. Hey man, 266 00:14:46.399 --> 00:14:46.919 what's up. 267 00:14:47.120 --> 00:14:47.279 Yeah? 268 00:14:47.320 --> 00:14:49.159 I think that new one at the very end is 269 00:14:49.159 --> 00:14:50.600 the first time we got to add that on sence 270 00:14:50.639 --> 00:14:51.879 the last time I was on the pod. 271 00:14:52.360 --> 00:14:54.960 So yeah, it's been a last time we were on. 272 00:14:55.000 --> 00:14:57.240 It was like zamorin Land, it was just a while ago, 273 00:14:57.399 --> 00:14:59.240 like entirely too long ago, to be clear. 274 00:15:00.240 --> 00:15:03.200 I've missed you both, and I'm I'm very pleased and 275 00:15:03.240 --> 00:15:05.279 honored and humbled to be back on the pod. So 276 00:15:05.320 --> 00:15:06.320 it's really good to be back. 277 00:15:06.399 --> 00:15:07.200 You have you on, man. 278 00:15:07.320 --> 00:15:09.480 Let's give a little a little history here. 279 00:15:09.559 --> 00:15:10.120 Oh my god. 280 00:15:10.480 --> 00:15:17.639 Back in the days of Zamorin, we met James and Hardy, right, yeah, yeah, 281 00:15:17.759 --> 00:15:21.759 in Boston at the beginning of a dot net Rocks tour, right, 282 00:15:22.159 --> 00:15:27.039 and you guys were you know, zamorin and at that point, 283 00:15:27.240 --> 00:15:29.960 and we were talking about zamorin forms and all that stuff. 284 00:15:30.039 --> 00:15:32.399 You were talking about zamorin forms on the road trip 285 00:15:32.440 --> 00:15:35.120 with us, and we were just talking about dot net 286 00:15:35.159 --> 00:15:38.440 in general. I think, if my memory is correct, I. 287 00:15:38.360 --> 00:15:40.080 Always had the sense that he was chucked under the 288 00:15:40.159 --> 00:15:41.960 bus in that sense, it's like, hey, get on this 289 00:15:42.000 --> 00:15:43.200 bus with these strange men. 290 00:15:43.919 --> 00:15:45.879 It was it was my I believe it was my 291 00:15:46.000 --> 00:15:49.120 second month on the job, and I'm pretty sure that 292 00:15:49.159 --> 00:15:52.679 they said, Hey, you're going on Toro with these two dudes, 293 00:15:52.840 --> 00:15:56.919 or got this RV and just driving around the US 294 00:15:56.960 --> 00:15:58.720 and go ah. 295 00:15:58.759 --> 00:16:00.320 And I don't know if you and Chris did it 296 00:16:00.759 --> 00:16:04.320 the same time, but you guys had built apps and 297 00:16:04.480 --> 00:16:07.639 got noticed by Microsoft. And I guess that's you know, 298 00:16:07.720 --> 00:16:10.440 how you worked your way into the organization, isn't it? 299 00:16:11.039 --> 00:16:11.639 The mobile app? 300 00:16:11.720 --> 00:16:11.879 Yeah? 301 00:16:11.879 --> 00:16:14.200 So I had been a professional mobile I worked at 302 00:16:14.240 --> 00:16:17.080 Cannon early on, writing printer software for them out of college, 303 00:16:17.519 --> 00:16:20.360 and then I went to PDC, which was right before Build. 304 00:16:20.399 --> 00:16:22.200 I was on big tent on campus and I got 305 00:16:22.200 --> 00:16:24.600 a Windows phone. I was a c sharp developer, fell 306 00:16:24.600 --> 00:16:28.519 in love with mobile development, got an Android device an iPhone, 307 00:16:28.600 --> 00:16:31.360 started building apps, and I got a job in Seattle. 308 00:16:32.399 --> 00:16:35.159 Moved my life up there as a mobile developer, found 309 00:16:35.240 --> 00:16:38.320 zamorin to do cross platform mobile devon dot net. Never 310 00:16:38.399 --> 00:16:41.440 looked back and that was it. I wrote an app 311 00:16:41.519 --> 00:16:43.600 that got featured for the company I worked at, Seaton. 312 00:16:43.639 --> 00:16:45.639 I got featured in Gadget and I was writing blog 313 00:16:45.679 --> 00:16:48.320 posts and doing kind of advocacy off to the side, 314 00:16:48.360 --> 00:16:50.600 and yeah, they randomly emailed me. I thought it was 315 00:16:50.639 --> 00:16:53.759 actually for like their MVP program. I didn't actually realize 316 00:16:53.759 --> 00:16:56.240 that it was to come in and interview like with 317 00:16:56.320 --> 00:16:59.519 Natt Friedman at the time, so I like win and 318 00:17:00.000 --> 00:17:02.159 course by then I knew I was interviewing. And yeah, 319 00:17:02.200 --> 00:17:05.119 it was three and a half years had xamred before 320 00:17:05.119 --> 00:17:08.799 the acquisition into Microsoft, which is which is awesome. So 321 00:17:09.000 --> 00:17:11.559 you know, I still building and publishing apps. I just 322 00:17:11.599 --> 00:17:14.680 published a brand new Blazer hybrid MAUI app to the 323 00:17:14.680 --> 00:17:17.680 app store last week, you know ndred percent Vibe Code, 324 00:17:17.880 --> 00:17:18.599 which was awesome. 325 00:17:18.680 --> 00:17:21.519 So it was rad I remember Chris Hardy talking about 326 00:17:21.559 --> 00:17:23.720 his favorite app that he wrote was how many days 327 00:17:23.799 --> 00:17:24.799 until Christmas? 328 00:17:27.720 --> 00:17:29.079 He's a big house fan. 329 00:17:29.720 --> 00:17:32.039 Yeah, and I took his it was ioas only and 330 00:17:32.079 --> 00:17:34.000 I ported it to Android. Those are the very one 331 00:17:34.039 --> 00:17:35.559 of the very first things that I did, and I 332 00:17:35.640 --> 00:17:37.720 put that on the app Store with Chris, which is hilarious. 333 00:17:37.759 --> 00:17:41.119 So yeah, yeah, funny, funny stuff, long long time ago. 334 00:17:41.160 --> 00:17:43.319 But we boy, that's where we met and we have 335 00:17:43.440 --> 00:17:44.359 been friends ever since. 336 00:17:44.880 --> 00:17:49.160 Absolutely, yeah. And it's like it's so interesting the year stuff. Right, 337 00:17:49.240 --> 00:17:52.160 you think you were, you know, around in nineteen sixty nine, 338 00:17:52.200 --> 00:17:54.559 Like what a time to be alive. And that's kind 339 00:17:54.599 --> 00:17:57.079 of like now. I kind of like think that now, 340 00:17:58.000 --> 00:18:00.880 and just like how everything is. Everything's always be moving fast, right, 341 00:18:00.920 --> 00:18:04.240 but it feels like things are super accelerated. But if 342 00:18:04.240 --> 00:18:06.759 you've latched on, I feel like it's in a really 343 00:18:07.480 --> 00:18:10.000 really fun and interesting place. I'm excited to dive in 344 00:18:10.079 --> 00:18:12.079 with kind of some new topics with y'all. 345 00:18:12.319 --> 00:18:14.599 Well yeah, I mean we don't. We haven't really we 346 00:18:14.640 --> 00:18:17.000 don't really talk about visual studio code that much because 347 00:18:17.000 --> 00:18:19.599 I don't think Richard and I use it all that much. 348 00:18:19.599 --> 00:18:20.880 I don't know about you, Richard, but. 349 00:18:21.160 --> 00:18:22.680 I'm in and out of it all the time. But 350 00:18:22.880 --> 00:18:26.119 you know we're we're studio people or ide people, right, 351 00:18:26.440 --> 00:18:28.599 that's where we came from. I don't know that when 352 00:18:28.599 --> 00:18:30.400 I want to develop, that's where I go. When I 353 00:18:30.440 --> 00:18:34.559 want to edit a zambal doc. I mean I mean 354 00:18:34.640 --> 00:18:35.599 studio code, but. 355 00:18:36.240 --> 00:18:38.680 I've found that the agents work better in studio code 356 00:18:38.680 --> 00:18:41.440 than they do in studio probably because of the threading 357 00:18:41.480 --> 00:18:43.599 model or something like that. I don't know what's going on, 358 00:18:43.680 --> 00:18:47.799 but I really really enjoy it. You know, every time 359 00:18:47.839 --> 00:18:50.759 that Fritz and I do something in studio code, I'm like, hmm, 360 00:18:51.119 --> 00:18:55.160 maybe maybe I'll you know, although I have customers that 361 00:18:55.240 --> 00:18:57.240 are in studio and I have to use that, so. 362 00:18:57.440 --> 00:18:59.759 Yeah, I think I think, you know, for me, it 363 00:18:59.839 --> 00:19:03.920 was kind of in maybe January or February this year 364 00:19:04.039 --> 00:19:06.680 or I kind of made this leap and jump, and 365 00:19:06.720 --> 00:19:08.599 I think a lot of developers are early on, like 366 00:19:08.680 --> 00:19:12.039 in their sort of like how much AI coding stuff 367 00:19:12.079 --> 00:19:14.480 do I adopt every single day and their journey, Like 368 00:19:14.480 --> 00:19:16.799 we kind of think that everybody's using it, but that's 369 00:19:16.839 --> 00:19:19.920 not the case. However, many people are and adopting it 370 00:19:20.000 --> 00:19:22.519 kind of slowly. But we have always been if you 371 00:19:22.519 --> 00:19:25.200 think about just intelli Sense and intelecode, and then we 372 00:19:25.240 --> 00:19:27.359 have the extensions that have been giving us and helping 373 00:19:27.400 --> 00:19:28.440 us write code faster. 374 00:19:29.079 --> 00:19:30.079 So really, in. 375 00:19:30.079 --> 00:19:33.400 January February, I kind of did dive all in when 376 00:19:33.440 --> 00:19:37.519 agent mode dropped inside of VS code and I really 377 00:19:37.960 --> 00:19:40.359 dove in deeper because the c sharp Defocate was getting better, 378 00:19:40.640 --> 00:19:43.480 the Maui extensions were getting better, the Plazer integrations were 379 00:19:43.480 --> 00:19:46.359 getting better, and it's really just dove all in. And 380 00:19:46.400 --> 00:19:48.400 I like to say I like gave in. I gave 381 00:19:48.400 --> 00:19:52.759 myself to agent mode, and you know, I've gone back 382 00:19:52.799 --> 00:19:54.759 and forth kind of talking about the IDEs, like the 383 00:19:54.880 --> 00:19:58.519 vs team has been doing great, like you know, adding 384 00:19:58.559 --> 00:20:00.759 more and more features to the Relief twenty twenty six 385 00:20:00.880 --> 00:20:04.200 is coming out soon, and like there's more and more integration. 386 00:20:04.319 --> 00:20:06.720 So it feels like they have some unique features that 387 00:20:06.799 --> 00:20:08.799 are like the profile aer and some of the debugging 388 00:20:08.880 --> 00:20:12.240 stuff for ID specific things. But yeah, the agent mode 389 00:20:12.279 --> 00:20:15.960 and the rapid pace. Like I'm on Insider for VS 390 00:20:16.000 --> 00:20:19.400 code and I'm just getting updates every single night, just 391 00:20:19.400 --> 00:20:21.759 like rapid, right, and that's how I live. I don't stable, 392 00:20:21.799 --> 00:20:23.319 I on the insider and just go. 393 00:20:24.000 --> 00:20:26.680 I feel like VS code can move faster into this 394 00:20:26.680 --> 00:20:31.559 new paradigm than the studio can, Like studio customers tend 395 00:20:31.640 --> 00:20:34.599 to be supporting large projects, like we tend to not 396 00:20:34.680 --> 00:20:39.680 emphasize the studio responsibilities to project management as much as 397 00:20:39.720 --> 00:20:42.599 it is to coding space as well, Like the show 398 00:20:42.599 --> 00:20:44.119 we did with Mads a few weeks ago talking about 399 00:20:44.119 --> 00:20:46.160 Studio twenty twenty six. He's very clear this is the 400 00:20:46.200 --> 00:20:50.359 AI version of Studio and it's still coming where you know, 401 00:20:50.519 --> 00:20:53.559