Speaker 1: Hello, everybody, and welcome to a brand new episode of
Speaker 1: Second Take Cinema, coming at you from the glorious Simpala
Speaker 1: Film's headquarters in sunny South End on Sea. I am
Speaker 1: your host, Jamie Evans, joined as always by mister Rory
Speaker 1: Jocelyn Well. Hello, and today we are going back to
Speaker 1: the Year of Our Lord nineteen ninety two for a
Speaker 1: film with a stacked cast including al Pacino, Jack Lemon
Speaker 1: and Alec Baldwin. Ladies and gentlemen, we are giving a
Speaker 1: second take to nineteen ninety two's Glen Garry Glenn Ross.
Speaker 1: Glengarry Glen Ross is a nineteen ninety two American black
Speaker 1: comedy drama film directed by James Foley and written by
Speaker 1: David Mammott, based on his nineteen eighty four Pulett Surprise
Speaker 1: winning play. It stars Al Pacino, Jack Lemon, Alec Baldwin,
Speaker 1: Ed Harris, Alan Arkin, Kevin Spacey, and Jonathan Price. It
Speaker 1: was made for a budget of twelve point five million dollars,
Speaker 1: but sadly post only ten point seven million dollars, later
Speaker 1: becoming a cult classic on home video release. The film
Speaker 1: holds a ninety five percent rating on Rotten Tomatoes based
Speaker 1: on fifty six different reviews, with the site's critical consensus
Speaker 1: reading this adaptation of David Mammett's play is every bit
Speaker 1: as compelling and witty as its source material, thanks in
Speaker 1: large part to a clever script and a bevy of
Speaker 1: powerhouse actors. Owen Glieberman, in his review for Entertainment Weekly,
Speaker 1: gave the film an A rating, praising Lemon's performance as
Speaker 1: a revelation and describing his character as the weasley soul
Speaker 1: of Glengarry Glen Ross Willie Lowman turned into a one liner.
Speaker 1: In his review for the Chicago Sun Times, Roger Ebert wrote,
Speaker 1: Mammeett's dialogue has a kind of logic, a cadence that
Speaker 1: allows people to arrive in triumph at the end of
Speaker 1: sentences we could not possibly have imagined. There is great
Speaker 1: energy in it. You can see the joy with which
Speaker 1: these actors get their teeth into these great lines after
Speaker 1: living through movies in which flat dialogue serves only to
Speaker 1: advance the story. In the Chicago reader Jonathan Rosenbaum lorded
Speaker 1: Foley for his excellent feeling for the driven and haunted
Speaker 1: jive rhythms of David Mammett, macho invective and all and
Speaker 1: called the film a superb nineteen ninety two delivery of
Speaker 1: Mammett's tor Deforce theater piece. The Chicago Tribune's David care
Speaker 1: hedged his praise, writing that the film was a well written,
Speaker 1: well staged, and well acted piece, though there is something
Speaker 1: musty in its esthetic, that of the huge bellowing method
Speaker 1: performance plastered over a flimsy one set. World Newsweek's Jack
Speaker 1: Croll observed Baldwin is sleekly sinister in the role of Blake,
Speaker 1: a troubleshooter called in to shake up the salesman. He
Speaker 1: shakes them up, alright. But this character, not in the
Speaker 1: original play, also shakes up the movie's toned balance with
Speaker 1: his sheer noise and scatter logical fury, scatological.
Speaker 2: That's a word in it, Jesus, I'm guessing it doesn't
Speaker 2: mean scatters in fucal, that's no no.
Speaker 1: In his review for Time Magazine, Richard Korlis wrote, a
Speaker 1: peerless ensemble of actors fills Glengary glen Ross with audible
Speaker 1: glears and shudders. The play was zippy black comedy about
Speaker 1: predators in Twilight. The movie as a photo essay shot
Speaker 1: in more close up about the difficulty most people have
Speaker 1: convincing themselves that what they do matters. However, Gessen Howe's
Speaker 1: review in The Washington Post criticized Foley's direction, writing that
Speaker 1: it doesn't add much more than the street between. If
Speaker 1: his intention is to create a sense of claustrophobia, he
Speaker 1: also creates the presumably unwanted effect of a sound stage.
Speaker 1: There is no evidence of life outside the immediate world
Speaker 1: of the movie. Interesting because that is actually one of
Speaker 1: my points. Okay, well, let's move on then. So this
Speaker 1: film was added to the list by your good self,
Speaker 1: Rory Jocelyn. Do you want to tell the audience about
Speaker 1: the first time you saw Glengarry glen Ross? So I was.
Speaker 2: This would have been late two thousand's. I was in
Speaker 2: involved in a theater group, local androm theater group called
Speaker 2: Lindasvhan all Lindis fan players, I think they were called.
Speaker 1: At the time.
Speaker 2: We had done a film, a play called Steel Magnolias,
Speaker 2: and we were going to go on to do basically
Speaker 2: a duet film of plays, one which was an all
Speaker 2: female cast, the aforementioned Still Magnolias, and then a play
Speaker 2: that was normal male cast. Initially I wanted I pitched
Speaker 2: that we did Twelve Angry Men, but we couldn't do
Speaker 2: Twelve Angry Men because it was currently doing a stage.
Speaker 2: It was currently in London, so it was playing in
Speaker 2: London in the UK at the time, and Robert Vaughan
Speaker 2: was playing Dura number nine in that play, and we
Speaker 2: actually went and watched. It was a really cool production
Speaker 2: because they actually put the stage on a revolving platform,
Speaker 2: so as the play goes on, you get to see
Speaker 2: everyone's face and back as the platform rotates around with
Speaker 2: the table on it, which was a really cool way
Speaker 2: of doing it. But anyway, yeah, so we decided that
Speaker 2: we couldn't do that play. We'd do Glen Garry Glen
Speaker 2: Ross instead, because it is again an all male cast.
Speaker 2: We ended up not doing the Blake section because it
Speaker 2: wasn't part of the original play anyway, and that makes
Speaker 2: it a little iffy on the right side if you
Speaker 2: buy the rights for the play and then add stuff
Speaker 2: to it. So, yeah, it was an interesting play. I
Speaker 2: was involved in the behind the scenes of that one
Speaker 2: more than I was. I wasn't a performer on it,
Speaker 2: but as part of that we watched the film. The
Speaker 2: film is the script is amazing I have to say
Speaker 2: I'm a big fan. I haven't seen a lot of
Speaker 2: Mannett's work, but based on this, I'm a very big
Speaker 2: fan of how this script is. It's very it's very
Speaker 2: strong as the people as people you read out state,
Speaker 2: the lines really hit not necessarily fully naturalistic, but everyone
Speaker 2: gets kind of a moment, which is really great for
Speaker 2: an actor and for a performance. And also I kind
Speaker 2: of fell in love with the way that this film
Speaker 2: is shot. There's certain elements of this film that I
Speaker 2: think work really really well. We'll get to those as
Speaker 2: we go through the film, and the performances are very good. So, yeah,
Speaker 2: that was the first time i'd seen it. What was
Speaker 2: your first time seeing this film?
Speaker 1: This time? I've never seen it before. I had read
Speaker 1: the play as part of a me and a couple
Speaker 1: of friends, previous guests on the show, Benton and Dave.
Speaker 1: We just were getting together every now and again to
Speaker 1: read a play just for shits and giggles. We did
Speaker 1: on Calvanya as well, right, Okay, but yeah, we did
Speaker 1: Glenn Garry Glen Ross, and we swapped out all the
Speaker 1: parts and things. I played Roma at one point, nice
Speaker 1: and then I think I also got to play Shelley
Speaker 1: for a little bit as well, But it was just
Speaker 1: it wasn't for any reason. It was just the three
Speaker 1: of us hanging out. We did talk about wanting to
Speaker 1: try and put it on at some point, but without
Speaker 1: a company behind you, it's incredibly difficult.
Speaker 2: Yeah, because you have to pay for the licensing rights first.
Speaker 2: Then you have to pay for a studio space like
Speaker 2: a rehearsal space. If you're not going to use someone's else,
Speaker 2: then you have to play for the actual performance space.
Speaker 2: So yeah, even androm at the moment in this country
Speaker 2: is really struggling as well well. Because of that, costs
Speaker 2: are going up, but people amount of people going to
Speaker 2: theater to watch amateur dramatics is going down because access
Speaker 2: to content.
Speaker 1: Is just so much higher. But no, I enjoyed the play.
Speaker 1: Mammot has a very unique style of writing that is
Speaker 1: very much his own, and it's there in a lot
Speaker 1: of Mammot plays. Yeah, he likes a lot of profanity. Yeah,
Speaker 1: and he likes a lot of But I think the
Speaker 1: profanity is well used. Yeah, it's not. It's us.
Speaker 2: It's used to sort of emphasize stuff properly, not like
Speaker 2: say Sarah Kane, Sarah Kane wrote place like blasted, for
Speaker 2: example in the nineties, and it was just they used
Speaker 2: the F word and can we use the falsewear words?
Speaker 2: In the show she used to use words fucking cunt
Speaker 2: in almost every single line of dialogue to the point
Speaker 2: where it became meaningless. This doesn't do that. Whenever they
Speaker 2: you got the memory of a fucking fly, you know,
Speaker 2: things like that. It's the words emphasize ye.
Speaker 1: And he writes very snappy dialogue that works very well
Speaker 1: on stage. And it's not that it doesn't work in
Speaker 1: the film, it's that it gives the film a certain
Speaker 1: stagey feel mostly around and it's the one character's name
Speaker 1: I can't remember, is it arowhak Oh? What Alan Arkin?
Speaker 1: It's George Arron Now Aaron Now. I know it had
Speaker 1: error in it.
Speaker 2: It is a weird name, Aaron Now, I've never heard
Speaker 2: it before accepting his player.
Speaker 1: It's mainly around Alan Arkins's character Aaron Now who he
Speaker 1: doesn't really swear. No, no, he doesn't swear. What I
Speaker 1: mean is the word stilted dialogue where there's lots of times,
Speaker 1: at least once with Ed Harrison, another time when he's
Speaker 1: talking to al Pacino where the deal is that Aaron
Speaker 1: now never finishes a sentence and he just repeats what
Speaker 1: the other person is saying back to him. Oh it works.
Speaker 1: I'm not saying it doesn't work, but but so we
Speaker 1: might as well just get into it. So I like
Speaker 1: this film. I enjoyed it. I actually watched it twice
Speaker 1: because the first time I watched it I was not
Speaker 1: in a very good frame of mind. And although I
Speaker 1: watched the whole film, a little bit of me was like,
Speaker 1: I think I need to watch this again just to
Speaker 1: absorb it. But I will say it's even if you
Speaker 1: didn't know beforehand, I think you would watch this and go, oh,
Speaker 1: this was a play.
Speaker 2: Yeah, it feels like a play. Yeah, it doesn't really
Speaker 2: conceal that. It's a little bit like The Sunset Limited.
Speaker 1: You I was just about to say that, yeah, yeah,
Speaker 1: it's very much like another film you showed me based
Speaker 1: on a play, which is The Sunset Limited. It has
Speaker 1: that exact same feel, exactly like that reviewer said, you
Speaker 1: don't believe there's a world outside of what's happening on
Speaker 1: the screen. Would you say the same for Twelve Angry Men,
Speaker 1: which likewise was based on a play. No, I don't
Speaker 1: think Twelve Angry Men fell into that trap in a
Speaker 1: weird way, whereas the other two do.
Speaker 2: I think what it is is where you are in
Speaker 2: the building. For twelve Angry Men, there isn't much to
Speaker 2: see outside in the real world, and you do have
Speaker 2: the windows. The windows aren't covered, so you see the
Speaker 2: outside world as time changes, as it starts to rain,
Speaker 2: things like that, which gives you the impression of a
Speaker 2: real world. Plus you also have the guy who brings
Speaker 2: in pieces of evidence, who, even though he's not really
Speaker 2: a main character, he is basically an extra, or a
Speaker 2: glorified extra. It is someone outside of your main twelve
Speaker 2: who pops in and out, and weirdly enough, technically Glengarry
Speaker 2: glen Ross has the ability to have more of that
Speaker 2: because certainly in the first half, Roma and his Mark
Speaker 2: who's trying to sell to Link, are in the Chinese
Speaker 2: bar across the street, and in that bar, certainly in
Speaker 2: the first scene there's quite a few other patrons, so
Speaker 2: you had a better opportunity than you had in Twelve
Speaker 2: Angry Men to have a slightly more livable world with
Speaker 2: more people in it, at least is extras.
Speaker 1: In the back. Shelly even goes out on a call. Yes,
Speaker 1: he does sit as they call it, Yes, and yet
Speaker 1: somehow it still feels stagy in a way.
Speaker 2: I don't know why that is on the set because
Speaker 2: he's so isolated from everyone else. All the street shots
Speaker 2: as well, there's never any extras, so, which is kind
Speaker 2: of interesting because you'd think there would be, like when
Speaker 2: they crossed the street both times, or the two or
Speaker 2: three times they do it. I don't recall there being
Speaker 2: any extras walking up or down the street. And also
Speaker 2: when Shelley's in the phone booth while he's out on
Speaker 2: the set, you never see anyone walk past the phone booth,
Speaker 2: which makes it feel like a vignette more than an
Speaker 2: actual scene in a movie.
Speaker 1: And it's that combined with the dialogue. Like the way
Speaker 1: Mammock writes is very stagy because he is a predominantly
Speaker 1: a stage writer, and it has that sort of musical
Speaker 1: rhythm that you're used to in stage plays. Yeah, apparently,
Speaker 1: which isn't bad.
Speaker 2: I don't know if it's for this film or for
Speaker 2: another one, but David Mammott he or at least in
Speaker 2: one of his films, he wrote it with a metronome
Speaker 2: so that the rhythm was really exact and you had
Speaker 2: to perform to the rhythm of the metronome so that
Speaker 2: it had this like everything hit on time and on beat,
Speaker 2: which is a really cool way of doing it. You know,
Speaker 2: I haven't seen that other film, but this film doesn't.
Speaker 2: This film is never boring. It's mate of the fact
Speaker 2: that it's mostly men sitting around talking. I counted it
Speaker 2: the Alec Baldwin scene, which is added just for the
Speaker 2: film that was not in the players mentioned before. That
Speaker 2: starts at eight minutes thirty. It finishes at sixteen minutes
Speaker 2: in so it's a seven and a half minute scene
Speaker 2: with three guys sat down. Kevin Spacey just stood in
Speaker 2: the background basically as an extra for that scene, and
Speaker 2: Alec Baldwin just shouting at people. And that's it for
Speaker 2: seven and a half minute straight and it doesn't lose you.
Speaker 1: It's never boring.
Speaker 2: It's gripping, which again to me shows that modern filmmaking
Speaker 2: ideology is probably not right because there are a lot
Speaker 2: of films like this where that scene can hold it.
Speaker 1: And I think that would hold for most people.
Speaker 2: Shown that scene to a lot of people when I
Speaker 2: worked in sales, which will come to it in a
Speaker 2: bit and also, outside of working in sales, I've never
Speaker 2: seen anyone get bored watching that scene, regardless of the
Speaker 2: fact whether or not they really are into film or not.
Speaker 2: So modern filmmakings suggests that you should do a scene
Speaker 2: for a very short period of time and then quickly
Speaker 2: move on. I don't think that's right. This film is
Speaker 2: way more engaging than say Your Man of Steals, et cetera,
Speaker 2: which man still feels like it's built to that modern
Speaker 2: aesthetic where it's like, well, this film, this scene has
Speaker 2: already been two minutes long. It's already over loong. Let's
Speaker 2: trim it and then fuck off. So nothing ever sits this.
Speaker 2: Everything sits. The performances obviously help as well.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean this is a stacked cast. Yeah, Like
Speaker 1: everyone in this is like one of the greatest actors
Speaker 1: of the twentieth century. Yeah, like al Pacino before he
Speaker 1: degraded into his weird phase, Yeah, where he was just
Speaker 1: screaming every line. Yeah.
Speaker 2: Jack Lemon, even though he was in his twilight years,
Speaker 2: was still doing great, and this is one of his
Speaker 2: greatest performances from that era.
Speaker 1: Yeah. I would say he's I think he's probably the
Speaker 1: best in the film, which is which is hard to
Speaker 1: say because they're all good. But I think Jack Lemon
Speaker 1: is the one that makes the film personally.
Speaker 2: Yeah, he's the heart of the film realistically. Whether or
Speaker 2: not you think he's a good character is a different question.
Speaker 2: His performance really anchors the film into its meat and potatoes.
Speaker 1: Roma is the.
Speaker 2: Smooth, buttery guy who really is all about the lion
Speaker 2: the double speak. So is Levine played by played by
Speaker 2: Jack Lemon. But he's the guy with everything to.
Speaker 1: Lose, and he's the guy who is outdated. Now. His
Speaker 1: sales techniques are all old hats. Yes, so that's the thing. Actually,
Speaker 1: he's a terrible salesman. Yeah, but he was a good
Speaker 1: salesman at one point in time, he says. Well, yeah,
Speaker 1: he says, but we are given reason to assume because
Speaker 1: we know he was the top salesman for several months
Speaker 1: out of the year under Roma. No, he says, at
Speaker 1: one point he was number one on the board. No,
Speaker 1: he says he was above Oh I thought he said
Speaker 1: he was top. No, he said he was above Moss.
Speaker 2: Oh I see, yeah, But he does, to be fair,
Speaker 2: he does mention that Mitch and Murray, I think the
Speaker 2: name of the guys around the company are you never
Speaker 2: see them came to him and were like, hey, you
Speaker 2: bought me that car with all your sales, Shelley, So yeah,
Speaker 2: that's suppose. There is the problem is all of his
Speaker 2: techniques are outdated now because time has moved on past
Speaker 2: him and he's still trying to sell in that cheesy,
Speaker 2: hey I'm here to save you money type way. He's
Speaker 2: a snake oil salesman out of time. So that's that
Speaker 2: whole thing of you, well this or heal all your ears.
Speaker 1: He's kind of that because you call someone up and
Speaker 1: he'll be like, uh, well, I've just been flown in
Speaker 1: from out of town and I've got one of these
Speaker 1: parcels and you've or he does this other one where
Speaker 1: it's like you've won our sales contest and things like that.
Speaker 1: It's like, no one fucking wants to talk about this ship.
Speaker 2: Like, as soon as you go he you've won our
Speaker 2: sales contest for this season, and you've gone, I've not
Speaker 2: signed up to sales contest. Clearly this is ship, Yeah,
Speaker 2: and you just hang straight the hell up. He's not
Speaker 2: realized that that probably worked when it first came in, yeah,
Speaker 2: because no one knew it was a scam. Yeah, now
Speaker 2: everyone knows it's a scam.
Speaker 1: Whereas Ricky Roma is doing that more modern way of
Speaker 1: selling where he doesn't try and actually sell you the product. No,
Speaker 1: he sells you the lifestyle. Yeah, and that's the thing
Speaker 1: with Link.
Speaker 2: We'll get to Roma in a little bit, I think,
Speaker 2: because we've got to talk very specifically.
Speaker 1: The cast. First. Ed Harris is great, probably the least
Speaker 1: impressive of the cast, just in the sense, Yeah, this
Speaker 1: is this is like the typical Ed Harris role that
Speaker 1: you've seen him do a bunch of times. It's still good.
Speaker 1: It's great at doing it. Alan Arkin, I want to
Speaker 1: shout out Alan Arkin because he actually died last year. Yeah.
Speaker 1: I'm actually a big Alan Arkin fan. He's a very
Speaker 1: good actor. He's a brilliant actor who is underrated in
Speaker 1: this day and age. Yeah, definitely in his older years.
Speaker 1: I've actually got an earlier film of his from the
Speaker 1: sixties with Audrey Hepburn in it called Wait Until Dark.
Speaker 1: It's a cool little thriller, so it's kind of Audrey
Speaker 1: Hepburn's a little bit older in it, and she plays
Speaker 1: a blind woman who lives alone, and Alan Arkin is
Speaker 1: a burglar who breaks into her house interesting, and the
Speaker 1: whole film is set in the house and she's blind
Speaker 1: and he's like a murderous burglar.
Speaker 2: That's interesting, I know. So he's also just before he
Speaker 2: died as well, he was in a series on Netflix.
Speaker 1: With great show and it's you really miss him in
Speaker 1: the last season yea.
Speaker 2: And it's understandable they couldn't bring him back in the
Speaker 2: last season because he passed away.
Speaker 1: He hadn't passed away.
Speaker 2: But I think I'm guessing he was ill. I think
Speaker 2: he was ill and on his way out. But his character,
Speaker 2: again very different to Aaron Now in this. His character
Speaker 2: in the Cominsky Method is sharp, he's razor tongued, he's
Speaker 2: you know, he's a complete bastard.
Speaker 1: He's in Little Miss Sunshine as well. He's good. I
Speaker 1: haven't seen that yet. That's good. That's him. That's a
Speaker 1: powerhouse cast as well. It's him, Paul Dano and Steve Correll, right, okay.
Speaker 1: And I think the little girl is Abigail Breslin, and
Speaker 1: I think the mum is Tony Collette, So they're all
Speaker 1: like great actors. Steve Carell plays the uncle and he's
Speaker 1: like suicidal and keeps trying to kill himself. It's the
Speaker 1: way Steve Correll, but it is dark funny. It's not
Speaker 1: half funny. It's that sort of uncomfortable laughter where it's like, oh,
Speaker 1: if this wasn't Steve Correll, this would be horrifying. Yeah,
Speaker 1: but yeah, Alan Arkins great. Kevin Spacey is just I
Speaker 1: know nowadays even more so because it turns out he's
Speaker 1: a bad bad man. But even before we knew that,
Speaker 1: you so badly want to punch him in this film,
Speaker 1: I love the big yeah right near the end. So
Speaker 1: spoiler alert, I'm just gonna say now, spoiler this is
Speaker 1: one of the few films where actually, if you haven't
Speaker 1: seen it, you should turn the episode off and go
Speaker 1: watch it. Yeah, because I'm about to give away the
Speaker 1: twist at the end, the subtle but very their joy
Speaker 1: on his face. Yeah, when he reveals to Shelley that
Speaker 1: the sale that's going to save Shelley's career is his bollocks,
Speaker 1: that it's because he's chewing gum, isn't he ego? They
Speaker 1: just like talking to say it?
Speaker 2: So can we talk about that? Because each what's great
Speaker 2: about this story as a play but also as a
Speaker 2: film is each of these salesmen are competent or incompetent
Speaker 2: in their own way. They each have a story arc,
Speaker 2: and that story arc sometimes connects to the other characters,
Speaker 2: and you get a lot about them as salesmen or
Speaker 2: about who they are in the terms of Williamson played
Speaker 2: by Kevin Spacey, based on what happens and who they
Speaker 2: interact with. So Roma he's a slick guy. He's selling
Speaker 2: the lifestyle. He's a bit of a bullshit merchant. Again,
Speaker 2: we'll come to him in a minute. We've talked about
Speaker 2: Shelley Levine. He is a guy who was a great
Speaker 2: salesman he picked, but he's been slow to change or
Speaker 2: hasn't changed his sales pattern, and he's now become a
Speaker 2: failing fool because he can't Actually he's not progressed. He
Speaker 2: needs to be more like Roma, but he's so fixated
Speaker 2: on the old ways will work, and he just needs
Speaker 2: to give it enough time to make them work, but
Speaker 2: it won't. He needs to move on. So he's not
Speaker 2: a good salesman anymore because of his arrogance with So
Speaker 2: and his connection in this really with Williamson is the
Speaker 2: interesting one because Williamson, when they first get given the
Speaker 2: task that they have to sell the most or be fired.
Speaker 2: He immediately goes to Williamson to try and bribe him
Speaker 2: into giving him some of the new Glengarry Leeds. Williamson's
Speaker 2: answer is, you've got the same chance as everybody else,
Speaker 2: because basically he's given the same tract to everybody. Now,
Speaker 2: over the course of the story, Williamson actually gives away
Speaker 2: that he doesn't give an equal amount of Director w
Speaker 2: eevery won and actually Levine's poor sales pattern is one issue,
Speaker 2: but it is very likely Williamson has been fucking him
Speaker 2: over from the top all along, because he makes out
Speaker 2: he's given him two. One of those is someone that
Speaker 2: basically goes and Williamson just know this. The guy goes,
Speaker 2: we filled up one form and now we've been accosted
Speaker 2: for ages. I don't want to sell. So that's the
Speaker 2: guy he goes out in the sit with. He then
Speaker 2: goes out on the second sit to get to the Nyborgs,
Speaker 2: makes the sale, and spends the second half of the
Speaker 2: film gloating about his amazing Nyborg sale. And then right
Speaker 2: at the end Williamson, as you say, reveals the dares
Speaker 2: the information. Yeah, if it sticks, it will be a miracle.
Speaker 2: They're nuts. Did you see the way they were living?
Speaker 2: They just and he says he knew them from a
Speaker 2: previous job.
Speaker 1: Yeah, there was a memo.
Speaker 2: Yeah, they just like talking to salesman. And it's like, well,
Speaker 2: then you gave him those two leads knowing he could
Speaker 2: never ever sell them. He was working Levine to basically
Speaker 2: to failure.
Speaker 1: We even see that before that because in the scene
Speaker 1: I noted this down specifically as a possibly a suggestion
Speaker 1: about how capitalism changes the work. Work changes the goalposts
Speaker 1: all the time. When Shelley is begging him to give
Speaker 1: him some of the Glengarry leads, Kevin Spacey, you know,
Speaker 1: he keeps changing the deal. Yes he does, Yes, so
Speaker 1: he'll agree with Shelley ever going to agree to the deal.
Speaker 2: He's just he keeps on just pulling to see how
Speaker 2: far he's toying with Shelley.
Speaker 1: And it's partly because he's enjoying it. You can see
Speaker 1: it because he's enjoying it, and it's also because he's spineless.
Speaker 1: So Kevin Spacey's character is typical middle management. He has
Speaker 1: no actual power in the grand scheme of things.
Speaker 2: And he has no talent either, has shown at the
Speaker 2: end when he sucks over Roma's last sale.
Speaker 1: Yeah, but the little bit of power that he does
Speaker 1: have he enjoys exploiting. Yes, so he and he's not
Speaker 1: a brave man, so he will never go against Mitch
Speaker 1: and Murray and give away the Glengarry leads. He won't
Speaker 1: do that. You can see that in the fact that
Speaker 1: he had and this is something that is added to
Speaker 1: the film and obviously isn't in the play. The fact
Speaker 1: he has to bring Alec Baldwin in to give them
Speaker 1: a talking to. Yeah, that shows that. Yeah, why isn't
Speaker 1: Williamson being the one because he just stands there impotently
Speaker 1: through that whole speech, doesn't.
Speaker 2: He Yeah, as I say, he's essentially you've hired Kevin
Speaker 2: Spacey in that scene as an extra. Yeah, because he
Speaker 2: doesn't really have any words at what I think. Right
Speaker 2: at the end, he takes the Glengarry leeds off of
Speaker 2: Alec Baldwin and then walks into the office with no dialogue.
Speaker 2: That should have been a Williamson talk. But the reason
Speaker 2: it isn't is because, as you say, Williamson is spineless.
Speaker 1: So he keeps saying he'll break the rules, and he's like, okay,
Speaker 1: I'll give him you, but I want twenty percent of
Speaker 1: your sale. Then it becomes twenty percent and fifty quid,
Speaker 1: then it becomes fifty quid, then it becomes I want
Speaker 1: the fifty dollars now, yes, that's one hundred dollars each,
Speaker 1: because it's fifty dollars each. Yeah, and that I love
Speaker 1: the way he changes. He goes fifty. He just keeps
Speaker 1: looking and goes, what one hundred dollars fifty dollars.
Speaker 2: It's oh, I don't have it right now. Oh I'm sorry,
Speaker 2: I can't do it. Shelley immediately turns to I ken
Speaker 2: do it. It can't be done, like you were just
Speaker 2: selling them you And that's a fantastic which in a
Speaker 2: way he is a good salesman. Yeah, yeah, yeah, And
Speaker 2: that's a fantastic bit of acting from Jack Lemon. The
Speaker 2: absolute despair when he says, I don't have it.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I don't have it. I've got thirty dollars. It
Speaker 1: will have to do. Let's do something. Yeah, that is heartbreaking.
Speaker 1: Like I said, Jack Lemon, I think is the emotional
Speaker 1: core of the film. I just want to say, because
Speaker 1: we skipped him and we shouldn't have done. I also
Speaker 1: want to shout Jonathan Price is a great performance from
Speaker 1: Jonathan Brice, fantastic, much like Aaron Arkin is another actor
Speaker 1: I think is underappreciated in his time. Yeah, definitely. I've
Speaker 1: never seen him be bad in anything. He was the
Speaker 1: high Sparrow on Game of Thrones. He was fantastic. Yes,
Speaker 1: he's the only one in this cast who was a
Speaker 1: previous Oh no, no, Kevin Spacey has never been a
Speaker 1: Bond villain. I think he's the only Bond villain. He's
Speaker 1: the only Bond villain. He's from Tomorrow, never dies where
Speaker 1: he Let's be honest. He played Rupert Murdoch. Yeah, well
Speaker 1: that is the point that I think the cat is
Speaker 1: actually called Elliott Carver, but he's Rupert Murdock. Who that
Speaker 1: character is.
Speaker 2: Yeah, no, he does very well. So the other one
Speaker 2: I want to talk about as well is Moss, played
Speaker 2: by Harris. His character ironically, he's basically the second best
Speaker 2: seller in the in the place at the moment, because
Speaker 2: that's noted by Williamson when he's trying to downplay Shelley's
Speaker 2: sales pitch. So it's who's under who's under? Romos Moss,
Speaker 2: fucking Mass. Moss is actually a very good salesman as well,
Speaker 2: but he wastes the whole night rather than making an
Speaker 2: actual sale. He spends the whole night selling the crime
Speaker 2: instead of the real estate. Yeah, and moaning that life's
Speaker 2: not fair.
Speaker 1: Yeah, but he's he's actively trying to make it less
Speaker 1: fair by not playing the game, by not making the sale.
Speaker 2: Instead, he tries. He spends most of the evening that
Speaker 2: we see him selling Aaron out on doing the crime.
Speaker 1: Because and we'll go on to this at the end.
Speaker 1: My main nugget is this is actually a film about cowardice. Yeah,
Speaker 1: the cowardice and I relevance or the sense of irrelevant.
Speaker 1: He is not brave enough to do the crime himself, No,
Speaker 1: he wants Aaron Ow to do it. And then when
Speaker 1: he can't get Aaron Now, he ends up roping Shelley
Speaker 1: into it.
Speaker 2: Yes, but we don't see him rope Shelley into it.
Speaker 2: We only find that out at the end. The thing
Speaker 2: I find interesting is he basically does kind of wrap
Speaker 2: Aaron Ow into doing it in as far as the
Speaker 2: scenes go. Obviously, it's designed that way so that you
Speaker 2: think Aaron Now is the one who robbed the office.
Speaker 2: And then the twist is that he didn't, but he's
Speaker 2: not wrong now that he's by the end of his
Speaker 2: dire tribe to Aaron Now, he says, well, look if
Speaker 2: I get arrest, if I do it and I get arrested,
Speaker 2: they're gonna ask whom my accomplices were, and I'm gonna
Speaker 2: name you. Why were you're an accessory before the fact?
Speaker 1: Why?
Speaker 2: Because you listened. And it's the danger of listening to
Speaker 2: people like Moss, people who sell this real estate shit,
Speaker 2: this sales patter. The danger of listening is they might
Speaker 2: find a way to talk you into a loophole that
Speaker 2: you're now trapped within. Because he essentially does he could say,
Speaker 2: Aaron now because Aaron Al didn't tell Williamson, and it
Speaker 2: doesn't show that Aaron Al told the cops that.
Speaker 1: Moss was in on it either, and he said he wouldn't.
Speaker 1: Aaron said he wouldn't sell anyone out.
Speaker 2: Yeah, and he got into say that first before he
Speaker 2: then told him basically, I fux you over either way.
Speaker 2: So yeah, it's interesting that Roma spends his night doing
Speaker 2: the sale and makes a legit sale. Lavigne spends his
Speaker 2: time trying to bribe Williamson and fails makes a sale,
Speaker 2: but the sale won't stick because Williamson has been acting
Speaker 2: against him. Roma sorry, must spends his night selling the
Speaker 2: crime and because he's a good salesman, gets the crime. Also,
Speaker 2: one thing that did confuse me with this, because it
Speaker 2: might be difendwe in American companies and British companies, what
Speaker 2: real estate place is open at night doing sale?
Speaker 1: They're all working overtime because their jobs are on the line.
Speaker 1: But who answers phone calls? Like if a salesman rang
Speaker 1: me at ten o'clock at night, I'd be like, look,
Speaker 1: turns about that guy's house at night. I wouldn't even that.
Speaker 1: That guy's way more polite than I'd be. I'd literally
Speaker 1: shut the door in his face, like fuck off.
Speaker 2: That may be a difference in American culture. We also
Speaker 2: don't know what time it is there, because it could
Speaker 2: be that it's a winter time because it is raining,
Speaker 2: so it kind of darkerly. Yeah, so it could have
Speaker 2: been like three pm when it got dark. But I
Speaker 2: do see your point. It does seem a little bit
Speaker 2: weird that people are still answering the calls at night,
Speaker 2: but I suppose that's kind of also the point. The
Speaker 2: people that they've got left to contact are so desperate
Speaker 2: to talk to salesmen that they will talk at night.
Speaker 2: The Nyborgs would pick up the phone because they just
Speaker 2: like talking to cells.
Speaker 1: And is that a thing that husband and wife have
Speaker 1: to sign at the same time, So does that mean
Speaker 1: they can't sell land to single people.
Speaker 2: It might be if it's signed as a marriage thing,
Speaker 2: then they both have to sign, because he did say
Speaker 2: it was his wife, so it could be that she's gone, oh,
Speaker 2: I'd like to sign up for some property. But in
Speaker 2: order to sign for the property, both of them need
Speaker 2: to sign because it essentially both of them are then
Speaker 2: legally obligated to the debt. So that leads us with
Speaker 2: Willia with Roma, who we did say with come back
Speaker 2: to Roma. Sales pattern is very interesting in that, as
Speaker 2: you say, he's not selling the property, he's selling the lifestyle,
Speaker 2: and he's also selling the freedom. He's selling the American dream.
Speaker 2: You get to choose what you want. You can do
Speaker 2: whatever you want, you can say whatever you want. This
Speaker 2: is a safe space where you can say.
Speaker 1: And act however you want. And you know what, you're
Speaker 1: the big fucking guy. Because again we'll come to this
Speaker 1: in a minute.
Speaker 2: I'm sure this film is all about toxic masculinity to
Speaker 2: some level, and part of that is built into romas
Speaker 2: sales pitch. He sells link Jonathan Price on the idea
Speaker 2: that even though he knows Jonathan Price is a weak
Speaker 2: willed man, by the way that he talks and responds,
Speaker 2: he's gonna build up. Look you can do this, fuck it,
Speaker 2: you're the man. You get away with it. You're the
Speaker 2: you know, you're the big guy. It's almost that Andrew
Speaker 2: Taint mentality in a way in which it's kind of
Speaker 2: like it builds up the masculinity in a toxic sense
Speaker 2: by basically going, look, you're the man, you do what
Speaker 2: the fuck you want you And the sales patter is
Speaker 2: in here. He says you fuck little girls, so be it.
Speaker 1: Yeah that was so weird. Yeah that was such a
Speaker 1: weird line.
Speaker 2: I was like what and he's he has the line
Speaker 2: you think there's an absolute morality, think what you like,
Speaker 2: but fuck that. Basically it's no, there is no absolute morality.
Speaker 2: What is correct is what you do, and you choose
Speaker 2: if it's correct, which is why he goes through that
Speaker 2: sales patter in that fashion.
Speaker 1: It's quite clever because it's psychological sales rather than you know,
Speaker 1: just would you like some land please?
Speaker 2: It's giving, it's trying to build link up as this
Speaker 2: real you know, he's the math well because.
Speaker 1: He's deliberately picking on a weak man. Yeah, of course
Speaker 1: he is.
Speaker 2: But that's also when it goes wrong, because the weak
Speaker 2: man goes home and his wife then talks him out
Speaker 2: of it and basically basically goes, no, you've got to
Speaker 2: have it and also get in there.
Speaker 1: And when he comes back, he's like, and this is
Speaker 1: why Jonathan Price does do such a good job in there. Yes,
Speaker 1: he does. Like you feel his desperation and you feel
Speaker 1: that he is this guy he's torn, trapped between what
Speaker 1: his wife is saying and what he really wants to
Speaker 1: do and what Ricky's saying.
Speaker 2: He's torn between two strong personalities and he's a weak one. Yeah,
Speaker 2: and so he apologizes, obviously apologized to his wife all
Speaker 2: night long, and then he comes into the office and
Speaker 2: he spends the whole time apologizing to Roma for hav Yeah.
Speaker 1: I love when Roma starts trying to talk me into it,
Speaker 1: and he's just like, I can't. I'm not allowed to.
Speaker 1: I'm not allowed to.
Speaker 2: Wife will always override, and he's like yeah, and it's
Speaker 2: like who says, who says you're not allowed to negotiate?
Speaker 1: You know, it's trying to chip away at the wife.
Speaker 2: Yeah, but in the case of Link, the wife is
Speaker 2: probably a good This is because it's they spent the
Speaker 2: whole night basically saying, you do what you want. You know,
Speaker 2: let's be honest. Fuck that bitch, you do what you want.
Speaker 2: And then in the end she's like, you've just been
Speaker 2: conned by this idiot.
Speaker 1: This is the only the only woman in the film
Speaker 1: who doesn't. So the only woman who physically appears is
Speaker 1: the waitress. Yeah, but the only woman who of any
Speaker 1: consequence is Link's wife, who never appears on screen. But
Speaker 1: you feel it and it is represented as I say,
Speaker 1: as you've said as well. There's a whole toxic masculinity
Speaker 1: thing going on here, which I think is born out
Speaker 1: of desperation and fear, which I'll get to in a minute.
Speaker 1: But she is sort of the only sensible person like
Speaker 1: she she doesn't fall for the bollocks we can do that.
Speaker 1: She's gone that, Yeah, go down there and tell them no.
Speaker 1: And that adds to this idea of the toxic masculinity
Speaker 1: because the office is oppressively anti female's.
Speaker 2: So bleak as well. There's no there's no real color,
Speaker 2: and everything that's pinned up around is about sales.
Speaker 1: And it's all about men specific Yeah, there's quotes on
Speaker 1: the wall. Oh is that what you've written down? Yeah,
Speaker 1: I wrote some of them down. Salesmen are born, not made. Ye.
Speaker 1: A man only hits what he aims for. A man's
Speaker 1: reach should exceed his grasp. They're all men, and all
Speaker 1: the dialogue is about men. You know. It's like you canna.
Speaker 2: Yeah, Alec Porlwin says, you think you can play in
Speaker 2: the man's game, You think you can take it? Are
Speaker 2: you man enough to take it? It's there is literally
Speaker 2: no space welcoming for women in this frame. And it's
Speaker 2: also interesting though that none of them try to sell
Speaker 2: to a woman.
Speaker 1: Because women are too smart to see they'll see through it. Yeah.
Speaker 2: Well no, technically the wife of not Link's wife, but
Speaker 2: the one that Lavine goes to see is obviously the
Speaker 2: stupid one because she's the one who signed up for it,
Speaker 2: and it's the husband that drives him off. So there
Speaker 2: is not to say that women are all too smart
Speaker 2: to see.
Speaker 1: It, but their sales techniques don't work on especially romas
Speaker 1: doesn't work on women. Oh yeah, because it's all about
Speaker 1: selling this masculine idea of you the man, freedom, you
Speaker 1: do whatever you want. Look, you can be like me.
Speaker 1: Look how cool I am, a fucking al pacino like me.
Speaker 2: It'd be like trying to relate to a woman by
Speaker 2: telling them about how much you love Andrew Tate.
Speaker 1: Yeah, you know, it doesn't work. Yeah, women have just
Speaker 1: be like that's stupid. So I want to talk about
Speaker 1: There's a couple of interpretations I have of the film,
Speaker 1: but the first one I want to talk about, because
Speaker 1: it ties into where we've just been going, is and
Speaker 1: it kind of ties into the situation we're living through
Speaker 1: today and why so many men are turning to the
Speaker 1: Andrew Tate toxic masculinity, red pill movement. Every man in
Speaker 1: this film is terrified, yes everyone, and I don't just
Speaker 1: mean terrified of losing their jobs. They are all terrified
Speaker 1: of irrelevance. They also terrified of not being seen as
Speaker 1: real men. Yeah, yeah, that's kind of what I mean
Speaker 1: by irrelevance. So, because the thing that kept striking me
Speaker 1: was when they kep talking about it a man's game.
Speaker 1: It's a man's game. I don't think of sales as
Speaker 1: a particularly manly thing, and it hit me that's why, Well,
Speaker 1: this is thing. It hit me. It's basically, these men
Speaker 1: do nothing productive for society. They don't make anything, they
Speaker 1: don't farm, they're not providing a service that actively helps
Speaker 1: people like police officer, fireman. They're a middleman, you know.
Speaker 1: They are leechers. They exist to help a corporation make money,
Speaker 1: which ironically they rarely see it, which they really see
Speaker 1: and they live off of table scraps all so they're
Speaker 1: literally leachers or parasites. In order to allow themselves to
Speaker 1: live with that knowledge, they've built this cult of masculinity
Speaker 1: around it of only a real man could do this.
Speaker 1: It takes brass balls. The fact he actually gets the
Speaker 1: brass balls out thing is I would call bullshit on that,
Speaker 1: except I have seen motivational speakers, not literally with brass balls,
Speaker 1: but literally with weird props that they get out just
Speaker 1: to say one point, and you're like whatever. I wonder
Speaker 1: how many of them were inspired by this film. Well,
Speaker 1: I did watch a thing where it was a guy
Speaker 1: saying and this is the damage of this film, the
Speaker 1: unintentional damage of people missing the point of the film.
Speaker 1: I watched a video where this guy who's been in
Speaker 1: sales for ten years says he's had three different bosses
Speaker 1: show him the Alec Baldwin scene unironically and be like,
Speaker 1: this is what you're aiming for. So what they've done, though,
Speaker 1: is they've built this cult of this is a man's game,
Speaker 1: only men matter. All of the talk is gonna be
Speaker 1: super butcher and masculinely. It's all based around that joking,
Speaker 1: putting each other down, swearing all the time thing, all
Speaker 1: of the decor is. And even Williamson because he's not
Speaker 1: a salesman, he's just a middle manager. He's a He's
Speaker 1: be honest, I'm not gonna say it, but the F
Speaker 1: word gets thrown around a lot in this film. That
Speaker 1: and pussy gets thrown around a lot. Yeah.
Speaker 2: Yeah, there's the one time where the F bomb comes
Speaker 2: out is Alec Baldwin.
Speaker 1: It just sort of comes out nowhere. He goes get
Speaker 1: mad get mad Well, cocksuckers. There's another one actually, but
Speaker 1: there's also a bit where he goes, you get that
Speaker 1: you fucking and then he says the word. You're like,
Speaker 1: is that necessary? Yeah exactly. But this is the thing.
Speaker 1: The whole and then you have to picture Alec Baldwin
Speaker 1: is the Andrew Tait of this scenario, or I hate
Speaker 1: to make it super political, he's the Donald Trump in
Speaker 1: this scenario. He's come into a group of desperate men
Speaker 1: who feel that they're growing irrelevance because sales, as you've said, increasingly,
Speaker 1: sales has become a more and more disrespected field because
Speaker 1: people know they're being played. Now.
Speaker 2: Yeah, people know that you're not making the cell for them,
Speaker 2: you're making the self for yourself. And a lot of
Speaker 2: people now prefer to go direct to the source to buy.
Speaker 2: They don't go when's the last time you heard of
Speaker 2: a traveling salesman. Yeah, they don't really exist anymore. It's
Speaker 2: because even if say you were to do that, though
Speaker 2: you okay, I'm going to be a traveling salesman. I'm
Speaker 2: going to buy this product, and I'm going to sell
Speaker 2: it this price, and I'm going to travel around the
Speaker 2: country to sell it. The vision you get of a
Speaker 2: traveling salesman is the snake oil salesman of like the
Speaker 2: Old West, sitting there going well, there's a cure all
Speaker 2: your eels. You know, as soon as you see a
Speaker 2: traveling salesman you just think scam artists.
Speaker 1: Yeah, Alec Baldwin is basically the Trump because look at
Speaker 1: his speech. Every time a character and it's usually Ed
Speaker 1: Harris says to him, who are you that we should
Speaker 1: listen to you? He doesn't talk about his sales record,
Speaker 1: he doesn't talk about his achievements. Well, just flashes his wealth.
Speaker 1: He kind of does this watch, this is worth more
Speaker 1: than your car. You drove a Hyundai to get to
Speaker 1: work today. I drove.
Speaker 2: He also has no proof of his accomplishments other than
Speaker 2: the wealth he's got on him. So he says, I
Speaker 2: can go out tonight the materials you got make myself
Speaker 2: fifteen thousand dollars, can you can you? Well, we get
Speaker 2: no evidence that Blake will make fifteen thousand dollars. The
Speaker 2: truth is, though, people like that who have that the
Speaker 2: brass balls, let's be honest about it.
Speaker 1: That's actually a very good the brass.
Speaker 2: Bulls to come out and just say I am the
Speaker 2: one who has the money. Therefore I'm the one who
Speaker 2: makes the money. There is something about the confidence that
Speaker 2: drives people.
Speaker 1: Exactly flash the confidence and they flash the wealth, the
Speaker 1: watch and the BMW to these desperate men who are
Speaker 1: becoming irrelevant, and these men because they're desperate, go, that's
Speaker 1: what I should be aiming for.
Speaker 2: I wanted to state something about sales, because I don't
Speaker 2: believe you've ever worked in sales, have you.
Speaker 1: No?
Speaker 2: So I have worked sales. I initially started working for
Speaker 2: John Lewis, which isn't sales in the same way, that's
Speaker 2: a lot more ethical sales. The benefit of working for
Speaker 2: something like John Lewis it's the benefit of not having
Speaker 2: so there was a pronocn Number one. The pro for
Speaker 2: the consumer and for me in a way in terms
Speaker 2: of the stress levels is there was no commission. The
Speaker 2: negative is that there's no commission. So I made the
Speaker 2: most sales in a day of TVs for John Lewis,
Speaker 2: the one I worked for.
Speaker 1: But still get paid the same and still got paid
Speaker 1: minimum wage. So but on the positive side, when it
Speaker 1: came to sales, it was so much more ethical because
Speaker 1: it was a case of they go, are you sure
Speaker 1: that one's the best for me? Because I mean, like,
Speaker 1: this isn't the most expensive TV in the range, or
Speaker 1: this one's a bit more than that one, And I'd
Speaker 1: be like, the reason I'm selling you that one is
Speaker 1: because it's got for what you want, this will do
Speaker 1: this the best, and that was legit because there was
Speaker 1: no commission. So I was like, we don't get paid
Speaker 1: commission here, so literally, I'm only trying to sell you
Speaker 1: the TV that will suit you best. When I then
Speaker 1: moved on from that too, so I was there twelve
Speaker 1: a half years. I then went into carphone Warehouse, which
Speaker 1: is direct sales telephone sales. I was very good at
Speaker 1: direct sales because I do patter quite well, but I
Speaker 1: didn't realize they did sales. I thought carphone whare else
Speaker 1: was a shop where just people come in and then
Speaker 1: you sell and you buy it contract. Oh that's never
Speaker 1: worked on me, I always refused. Yeah, I didn't go
Speaker 1: on to a contract until like way after everyone else did.
Speaker 1: It was only because we got offered alone.
Speaker 2: To be surprised, how rare that is now. So, but
Speaker 2: when you meet someone like that, you will get some
Speaker 2: people that can't see it and well, could we do
Speaker 2: have contracts?
Speaker 1: Like you?
Speaker 2: You seed it a couple of times if they're really
Speaker 2: like I just want to buy a phone mate, just
Speaker 2: sell the phone, get them out the shop, because essentially,
Speaker 2: when you sell the phone direct, you make no money
Speaker 2: for yourself really right, so that the because they basically
Speaker 2: it doesn't. They could spend like one five hundred pound
Speaker 2: on a brand new iPhone, you make twenty five pence
Speaker 2: on that commission seal right, whereas if you sold them
Speaker 2: it on a contract.
Speaker 1: Actually, iPhones were the worst because you could.
Speaker 2: Sell them a really expensive contract and still only make
Speaker 2: like seventy five p on that sale, whereas with something
Speaker 2: like a Huawei or a you know, one of the
Speaker 2: other brands, you would get up to six quid for
Speaker 2: that one sale.
Speaker 1: So you'd always try and move them away from Apple,
Speaker 1: not only because Apple's shit, but because they were the
Speaker 1: ones that broke the most as well, I'm gonna be honest,
Speaker 1: but also because you'd get.
Speaker 2: More money for the other brands. So in it, I
Speaker 2: would always try and be more ethical in that I
Speaker 2: would try and move people towards ones that would pay
Speaker 2: me more, but that's still fit what the patient, what
Speaker 2: the customer needed, so I'd always make it a match.
Speaker 2: I never really had complaints. There were some people that
Speaker 2: weren't that good for that. They would just go, well,
Speaker 2: that one makes me more money. So I would take
Speaker 2: a slight hit on commission because let's be honest. If
Speaker 2: the person returns the contract within twenty eight days, I
Speaker 2: don't make the commission anyway.
Speaker 1: That's another difference, isn't it. In this day only get
Speaker 1: three days. Yeah, And I was like, in Britain it's
Speaker 1: at least fourteen is the lowest I've ever heard.
Speaker 2: Yeah, so you have twenty eight days to cancel, right
Speaker 2: when I worked in it twenty eight days to cancel.
Speaker 2: So I was like, I might as well Summer's phone
Speaker 2: that they're gonna be happy with, because just selling them
Speaker 2: at a phone that makes me slightly more money that
Speaker 2: gets returned makes me nothing, whereas selling them a phone
Speaker 2: that makes me a little bit less but definitely is
Speaker 2: stuck with the with the customer I'm going to keep.
Speaker 2: But yeah, so there were ethics on that however, And
Speaker 2: you're gonna hate this, but.
Speaker 1: It's one hundred percent through. If my sales call it
Speaker 1: like that, my number of cells have started to decline.
Speaker 1: I would watch the scene from Glengarry glen Ross of
Speaker 1: Alec wallin Bollocking the others my cells would improve immediate toxic.
Speaker 1: But it's the let edit in Britney spears as toxic
Speaker 1: at that point, which is a great song.
Speaker 2: How I'm not suggesting it's not toxic. What I am
Speaker 2: suggesting though, is that it works.
Speaker 1: And atational speech it was, but it also it also works.
Speaker 1: I think it's mostly to do with it's because it's
Speaker 1: not necessarily anything in there that was directly comparable to
Speaker 1: phone sales. So the reason I think mobile phones hadn't
Speaker 1: even been invented in ninety two, had they?
Speaker 2: They had, but they were very like they were like
Speaker 2: that consumer product, not really, No, you had to have
Speaker 2: a briefcase for a battery and shit like that. What
Speaker 2: you had, I think was the injection of confidence. You
Speaker 2: cannot sell without confidence, no, which is why Aaron aw
Speaker 2: is a terrible salesman. He has no confidence and he's
Speaker 2: a fuck up. When he first when they first get this,
Speaker 2: when they first get told they have to go out
Speaker 2: that night to sell, he calls the first person and
Speaker 2: he uses the wrong person's name. He picks up and goes,
Speaker 2: is that mister I don't know, mister Mitchinski. Oh sorry Space,
Speaker 2: mister Space. It's like you've already lost them because now
Speaker 2: they know, And he's.
Speaker 1: Like, oh, I'm just calling I've been trying to call
Speaker 1: you because of it. It's like, no, you haven't because
Speaker 1: you gave the wrong name. So well, he's someone completely
Speaker 1: beaten down by the system. There are certain people who
Speaker 1: are like Aaron now, where they're so beaten down by
Speaker 1: their job that even when they are offered a potential
Speaker 1: lifeline or a potential solution, will not take it because
Speaker 1: they have been comfort They become comfortable in this lane
Speaker 1: of just I'm going to moan and bitch and whine
Speaker 1: about everything, but I'm not going to change anything about
Speaker 1: my approach.
Speaker 2: But actually, weird enough, Levin has the same problem. The
Speaker 2: only difference is Levin is a little bit Levine hasn't
Speaker 2: given up.
Speaker 1: Difference. Yeah, Aaron, I was kind of giving up. He's like,
Speaker 1: I'm fucked on the board. Okay, you know he didn't.
Speaker 1: That's a great line, though, I'm fucked on the board.
Speaker 1: The irony being.
Speaker 2: What I do like about this film is that the
Speaker 2: best salesman Roma and the worst salesman in Aaron Ow.
Speaker 2: They had to lose two out of the four. Well
Speaker 2: they did because Moss Bugger's off to go and work
Speaker 2: for someone else and Levine's going to jail.
Speaker 1: Yeah, Moss is the one character that I have from
Speaker 1: It doesn't make a lot of sense to me in
Speaker 1: the sense that the whole reason he leaves he gets
Speaker 1: angry about the way they're talking to him. But he
Speaker 1: did he did it, Like I know, he didn't physically
Speaker 1: rob the office, but he planned the crime. Yeah, but
Speaker 1: he's got to pretend it's all bollocks. He gets, But
Speaker 1: then why does he still quit what he should do.
Speaker 2: Because he's going to work for the other guy. He's
Speaker 2: using it as an excuse so that it doesn't look
Speaker 2: suspicious that he's then buggering off.
Speaker 1: I see, Yeah, I miss that.
Speaker 2: Yeah, the whole thing is, well, it's not really That's
Speaker 2: how I took it, because he made it clear he
Speaker 2: was going over to Jerry. Yeah, Jerry graph because that's
Speaker 2: who they've sold the Glengarry Leeds too is But he's
Speaker 2: gonna look, it's gonna look weird if he just decides
Speaker 2: to jump over to Jerry Graff and he's leavin over
Speaker 2: on that deal as well, an't he? He tries to
Speaker 2: fuck Aaron.
Speaker 1: Now Over on it, Yeah, because he says he's got
Speaker 1: a line only with because you're half's five or whatever,
Speaker 1: it is. My half is my own business. Like that's
Speaker 1: not half then, is it? No? No, And Levine even
Speaker 1: says Donny, he says, I got five grand from I
Speaker 1: think he's got more. Yeah, but that's again that's Moss
Speaker 1: being a great salesman. But he's selling the crime, not
Speaker 1: the property, which suggests that he doesn't always sell the property. Also,
Speaker 1: the way that Moss is so vocally aggressive about how
Speaker 1: shit his job is, that's got to come across when
Speaker 1: he's trying to make sales, which might explain why his
Speaker 1: sales numbers aren't that good. If you go up to
Speaker 1: someone and go, oh god, my job is a bit shit,
Speaker 1: you know, it's really fucking difficult. I don't really like it.
Speaker 1: Would you like to buy something? They're gonna be like, nah,
Speaker 1: you're all right. So I think he's kind of again
Speaker 1: it's where you put your focus as a salesman. However,
Speaker 1: something else that I find interesting about him, Sorry, you
Speaker 1: starting to sick. When he's still trying to sell the
Speaker 1: crime to Aaron. Now he mentions griff Jerry Graff. Sorry
Speaker 1: he mentioned Jerry Graff, and he says that Graff had
Speaker 1: the right idea. He bought a bunch of leads of
Speaker 1: nurses and started selling homes to them. He was thinking,
Speaker 1: you know, who has extra money? Who has you know,
Speaker 1: blah blah blah blah blah. Nurses he's thinking, he's thinking.
Speaker 1: Aaron now goes with him for a little bit, and
Speaker 1: then Aaron Ow says, oh, I heard I heard they
Speaker 1: weren't doing very well the nurses. Yeah, I heard that
Speaker 1: they that had fallen through. And it's like, oh no, no,
Speaker 1: they're doing well. They're doing really well. It's like Jerry
Speaker 1: Graff has been selling to.
Speaker 2: You because it's quite likely that the nurses aren't selling,
Speaker 2: which is otherwise why would he need the Glengarry leads?
Speaker 2: Why would he need to steal Glengarry leads?
Speaker 1: There was a little bit of me that thought there
Speaker 1: was going to be a twist where when one of
Speaker 1: them did go to Jerry Graphic, turns out he's also fucked.
Speaker 2: Yeah, basically I think he is, because he's he bought
Speaker 2: the leads of the nurses that's doing exceptionally well, says
Speaker 2: the only man who's spoken to him, Moss, who is
Speaker 2: trying to convince to steal the Glengary leads. Why does
Speaker 2: he need them if the nurses are doing well and
Speaker 2: Aaron has already heard that graph isn't doing well. Why
Speaker 2: would he have heard that? It sounds to me like
Speaker 2: it's all bollocks, every even the salesmen are being sold to,
Speaker 2: because it is all the way up the chain, it's
Speaker 2: all sales.
Speaker 1: Yeah. One thing, just going back slightly because I forgot
Speaker 1: to make it in my point about toxic masculinity. The
Speaker 1: other key thing as well, that again it has in
Speaker 1: common with this modern day red pill movement. Notice none
Speaker 1: of them ever for a second consider that their own
Speaker 1: performance is the problem. Now, none of them sit there,
Speaker 1: especially Moss, sit there going ah, maybe I'm selling too aggressive,
Speaker 1: maybe I'm doing this. It's always just the leads a shit, Yep,
Speaker 1: these people are goddamn dead beats, you know what I mean.
Speaker 2: Nay, even Levine doesn't. Even Levine does the same. Levin
Speaker 2: actually is the only one with a legit reason. But
Speaker 2: Simon taneously he doesn't know that yet. Yeah, and it's
Speaker 2: probably because he keeps on money that the issue is
Speaker 2: the leads.
Speaker 1: Yeah, which again I just meant to say, ties into
Speaker 1: this interpretation of toxic masculinity, where these people they're not
Speaker 1: soul searching, they're not looking in themselves and going well, actually,
Speaker 1: maybe I shouldn't do X, Y and Z. They're just going, oh,
Speaker 1: it's all women's fault. They make me feel bad. It's
Speaker 1: never well, okay, I'm not saying everything's your fault. Sometimes
Speaker 1: it's not. But some of these men, they'll sit there
Speaker 1: and literally be like, yeah, I forgot her anniversary every year,
Speaker 1: but I don't understand why she left me. Well, maybe
Speaker 1: that's why, you fucking moron.
Speaker 2: Like I think the problem is is there's a lot
Speaker 2: of toxic women and a lot of toxic men.
Speaker 1: Yeah, a lot of people.
Speaker 2: It's who is the toxic one in each relationship or
Speaker 2: in each thing. It's actually not as straightforward as well.
Speaker 2: It's the woman being a bitch, or it's the man
Speaker 2: being a lazy asshole. It's different for each Sometimes one
Speaker 2: leads to the other, of course.
Speaker 1: So and I recognize as well, I'm putting a very
Speaker 1: modern interpretation on a film that is from thirty years
Speaker 1: ago from and a play that's from even older than that, Yeah,
Speaker 1: play nearly forty Yeah, I think nineteen eighty four. Ifact
Speaker 1: that is forty years now, isn't it. It is? Yeah,
Speaker 1: So I know I'm putting a modern interpretation on it.
Speaker 1: I also don't know how intentional that is, given that
Speaker 1: David Mammott himself is quite right wing from what I understand,
Speaker 1: So I haven't kept up with David Mammott himself. So
Speaker 1: I'm just taking the play in the film as it
Speaker 1: is within its own context. Yeah, which I think is
Speaker 1: best because we always talk about separating art from artists.
Speaker 2: Yeah, However, it is important sometimes to think about the
Speaker 2: mindset of the person who created the art, not necessarily
Speaker 2: to say that the art is valued or not valued
Speaker 2: based on that. If I'm not right wing, so I
Speaker 2: probably If David Mammett is right wing, as you say,
Speaker 2: I probably wouldn't agree with him. But that doesn't necessarily
Speaker 2: mean that the film is about that, even though it
Speaker 2: includes toxic masculinity. I suppose the question would be does
Speaker 2: it discuss toxic masculinity by choice or is that a
Speaker 2: you know, a a happy circumstance of how right?
Speaker 1: Well this is fascinating, isn't it. The question is has
Speaker 1: he deliberately written a scathing indictment of toxic masculinity or
Speaker 1: has he written what he thinks men are and it's
Speaker 1: by doing that has accidentally exposed toxic masculine And the
Speaker 1: truth is we will never know unless someone goes actually
Speaker 1: asks him, and even then you probably won't know because,
Speaker 1: let's be honest, he would have reason to lie because
Speaker 1: we've said before there's probably a billion writers and directors.
Speaker 1: I've done it. I've done it with Haunted, where people
Speaker 1: come up to you and go, I really like this
Speaker 1: symbolism here, and you've not done it intentionally. Yeah, you
Speaker 1: just sit there and go thank you. Yes, Yes, I
Speaker 1: am that smart, thank you very much. Yeah, whereas I
Speaker 1: am that smart Jamie. Of course, I have one other
Speaker 1: interpretation I just want to talk about, which is of
Speaker 1: the film as a scathing indictment of capitalism, okay, yes,
Speaker 1: which I think mostly centers on Shelley the Machine Levine. Yes,
Speaker 1: where you know, at the start of the film, Shelley
Speaker 1: is desperate. He is a man who's worked all his life.
Speaker 1: He's now in his twilight years, probably at an age where,
Speaker 1: at least in this country, you would long since have
Speaker 1: expected him to retire, because we have pretty good retirement
Speaker 1: plans in the UK. Yeah, I mean, yeah, okay, because
Speaker 1: as I understand it, I could be wrong, but as
Speaker 1: I understand it, he's still working in seventy four. So
Speaker 1: this is the nineties though nowadays nowadays, Yes, nowadays, the
Speaker 1: economy is in the fucking toilet. Yeah, people can't afford
Speaker 1: to stop working anymore. I could be wrong, so someone
Speaker 1: can fact check me. But I don't think America has
Speaker 1: the same state pension that the UK has system. I
Speaker 1: think if you're not in a private pension, you're basically fucked.
Speaker 2: Quite possibly, it's a bit like being self employed in
Speaker 2: the UK though, so he probably is that. Actually, it's
Speaker 2: probably is directly.
Speaker 1: Because they do all their own taxes. Yeah.
Speaker 2: I think the reason my dad is still working is
Speaker 2: because he's been self employed his whole life and as wow, yeah,
Speaker 2: and because he's been self employed his whole life, he
Speaker 2: doesn't have a pension put away.
Speaker 1: He still pays tax though, so he should. Tax and
Speaker 1: pension is separate. No, No, you know, your National Stamp
Speaker 1: is your pension, but you have to pay your stamp.
Speaker 1: I think the drop in pay would be That's what
Speaker 1: I'm saying. It's probably this is the thing. You can't
Speaker 1: live on the state pension anymore. No, No, it's not.
Speaker 1: Actually you can't actually exist on it, no, because it's
Speaker 1: only something like one hundred and fifty quid a week,
Speaker 1: I think, Yeah, which for someone like me, who I
Speaker 1: don't I doubt I'm ever going to own a house.
Speaker 1: I'm probably going to rent my entire life. Yeah, one
Speaker 1: hundred and fifty quit a week does not cover rent. No,
Speaker 1: he doesn't let alone everything else. Yeah. Yeah, Anyway, Shelley
Speaker 1: the machine Levine is this old guy. He's worked his
Speaker 1: whole life and he's desperate. He's put in a position
Speaker 1: of desperation that again, this is something that makes the
Speaker 1: play uniquely American. He needs to pay for his daughter
Speaker 1: to have treatment of some kind. So Shelley is this
Speaker 1: older guy has worked all his life, he's now in
Speaker 1: a position of desperation because he needs money to pay
Speaker 1: for his daughter. And Kevin Spacey is the He symbolizes
Speaker 1: the whole of the capitalistic industry, the free market, which
Speaker 1: is it doesn't give a fuck about you. You can
Speaker 1: put years of your life into a company. The minute
Speaker 1: you falter or you need help, they turn their back
Speaker 1: on you. They're indifferent, they don't.
Speaker 2: Care because it is predatory, and it's predatory against itself.
Speaker 2: So the whole thing is the reason it's manly is
Speaker 2: because you're the predator and your customers are the prey.
Speaker 2: The thing that they don't see coming is that they
Speaker 2: are also the prey to the people above them. He
Speaker 2: then gets driven to a point where he has to
Speaker 2: do something desperate, which I'm from a working class background,
Speaker 2: I know that happened. The reason there's a perception of
Speaker 2: some working class people being criminals is because a lot
Speaker 2: of them are forced into it.
Speaker 1: He is forced to do something desperate to protect his daughter, Yeah,
Speaker 1: and immediately gets punished for it. Yeah. Like the film off,
Speaker 1: she ends a little bit ambiguously, but it's reasonable to
Speaker 1: presume he goes to jail at the very least loses
Speaker 1: his job.
Speaker 2: And we also hear earlier on the phone if he
Speaker 2: can't pay the next bill, she's being thrown out of healthcare.
Speaker 2: And if he goes to jail, he won't be able
Speaker 2: to afford that bill because he can't afford it. Right now,
Speaker 2: I'd like to just say as we end that the
Speaker 2: film does a really good job of building tension as well,
Speaker 2: and really proves that tension doesn't have to come from
Speaker 2: something life threatening.
Speaker 1: Like fans what yeah, or like no or psycho or
Speaker 1: something like that, you know, always be closing. It doesn't
Speaker 1: always have to be something life threatening. You know, this
Speaker 1: film perfectly builds tension with Roma and yes and the oh,
Speaker 1: the contract's fine, it's fine, definitely judge it. And the
Speaker 1: whole time you kind of suspect that, at least I did,
Speaker 1: that Kevin Spacey has lied about the contracts No, no, sorry,
Speaker 1: let me take it back. You know that Kevin Spacey
Speaker 1: is saying the contract has been filed. So when Kevin
Speaker 1: Spacey comes out, every time he comes out, you're like,
Speaker 1: don't open your mouth, don't give the game away, and
Speaker 1: he does, and when that happens, you're like, fuck.
Speaker 2: But that's why Roma says the first thing, you know,
Speaker 2: if you'd ever worked a day in your life, you
Speaker 2: don't open your mouth until you know what the shot
Speaker 2: is yea. And another because Williamson has no life experience
Speaker 2: in sales.
Speaker 1: And another interesting thing about the Roma character, just as
Speaker 1: I wrap up, that might talk to why he's a
Speaker 1: better salesman than the others, and maybe not, I might
Speaker 1: be reaching. This might just be a film because he's
Speaker 1: got the most so oh yeah, but this reason might
Speaker 1: just be me trying to find a nice message. He's
Speaker 1: the only one who seems to care about previous generations. Yeah, No,
Speaker 1: other character wants to hear about Shelley, mostly Moss, who's
Speaker 1: literally like foot the machine. Yeah, but al Pacino, I
Speaker 1: kept expecting it to be a twist, you know, and
Speaker 1: he's like saying to him, I want to learn from it,
Speaker 1: even though he's already in the position of power. Yeah,
Speaker 1: he still wants to learn from the old generations. I
Speaker 1: was a little cynical bit of me. He was expecting
Speaker 1: a twist where he was just like, ah, fuck you, you
Speaker 1: old geezer, I've stolen your leads on something like that.
Speaker 1: So what it is is because he actually says he
Speaker 1: learned from Shelley Levine. So he learned Shelley Levine's thing,
Speaker 1: and then he took it in a more modern direction.
Speaker 1: What he needs, what Shelley needs is to change. But
Speaker 1: that doesn't mean that what Shelley learned is irrelevant. You
Speaker 1: take the best bits of it and you move on.
Speaker 1: The reason that Roma is such a good salesman is
Speaker 1: because essentially, by doing the psychological sales pitch that he does,
Speaker 1: what he.
Speaker 2: Ends up doing is. The reason he's not selling the
Speaker 2: land is because he's selling to a friend. And when
Speaker 2: I worked in sales. That was the main thing that
Speaker 2: you have to do is build up even though it's
Speaker 2: much shorter, I had like twenty minutes to build up
Speaker 2: a relationship with someone.
Speaker 1: That's what you do.
Speaker 2: You find something on someone that you can connect with,
Speaker 2: maybe a necklace they're wearing, something like that. You try
Speaker 2: and find something you can connect with, grow a relationship
Speaker 2: within that twenty minute timeframe, so that by the time
Speaker 2: you're making the add on sales, you're selling to a friend.
Speaker 1: Yeah. I've experienced that. So that is it for Glen Garry,
Speaker 1: Glenn Ross. I presume you will agree that it still
Speaker 1: holds up Rawsham one hundred percent brilliant film. Yeah, I agree.
Speaker 1: I really liked this. I don't think I like it
Speaker 1: quite as much as you, but I found it really enjoyable.
Speaker 1: I would definitely recommend that people check it out. It's
Speaker 1: a really interesting film, and I think it is a
Speaker 1: film that even if this interpretation wasn't intended back in
Speaker 1: the day, it certainly applies now, which is one of
Speaker 1: the fantastic things about film is that the interpretations can
Speaker 1: change over time. Thank you everyone for listening. We will
Speaker 1: be back next week with more Second Take cinema until
Speaker 1: next time. That's a wrap