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Speaker 1: Welcome. All of you guys are here and you can

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come and smash me. Calvinists making a big fuss. James

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White can't stop talking about me, and I did. I

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posted my thirty minute roast. Forty minute roast, so you

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can go watch the roast. Indiana, what's up, man? Come,

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let's chat about our exchange. You got on mute yo?

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Hey are you there?

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Speaker 2: What?

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Speaker 1: Can you hear me?

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Speaker 2: Yeah? I can hear you.

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Speaker 3: Yeah.

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Speaker 1: I mean I was perfectly cordial to you. When I

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asked you if you wanted to debate. You said, I'm

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not interested in representing a position in a debate for him,

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but you're open to a conversation. And I asked you

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a couple of times if you'd like to chat. So

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where did I do anything like what you accuse me of?

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Speaker 2: No?

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Speaker 4: Yeah, I came on here to publicly apologize, humbly admitting

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that I was wrong. I misrepresented our conversation. I deleted

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the tweet, not as a I'm trying to hide what

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I did, but I did. I misrepresented and I exaggerated

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our conversation.

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Speaker 2: Shouldn't have done that fair enough.

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Speaker 1: I will take it down because you were well, I mean.

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Speaker 2: You have to do that.

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Speaker 4: I mean, I mean I didn't come here to be

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like to try to cover my ass or anything, but

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I I you know, there comes a point where you

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do make a mistake online and you gotta come.

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Speaker 2: Up and you gotta admit that you that you overstepped

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your bounds. I was a little agitated.

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Speaker 4: Because and you know, secondarily, you know, uh, I don't know.

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I get a lot of d ms from people who

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I don't know if they're affiliated with you at all,

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and I'm not going to assume that they are, but

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a lot of just horrible dms, and they're all telling

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me to debate you. Uh, and that just the horrible

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things I hear come coming in my dms. So and

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I apologize for allowing that to bleed over into you know,

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me talking about you on a public forum.

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Speaker 1: That's all good. It's forgiven and forgotten. You can if

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you anytime you'd like to have a conversation about the

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topics the issues. It's an open forum. It's there's an

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open door there. I would also say that if you post,

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you know, the Instagram stuff calling out orthodoxy, you have

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to expect pushback. I can't speak for all the people

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that DM you or what the comments are. My comment

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on your post, you know, going after Relics was just

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would you like to have a debate about this? And

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that's just my default modus offerandi for everybody.

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Speaker 2: Gotcha? Gotcha? No?

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Speaker 4: Yeah, And I respect that I don't know, I'm not

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super familiar with a lot of your content. So again,

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another apology, you know, just like making a blatant, you

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know statement about you know, questioning your Christianity because I

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really don't. I haven't taken the time to go over

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everything that you post. So yeah, I'll take some time

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to look over you know, your position and more in depth.

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And yeah, i'd definitely be down to have a conversation.

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Speaker 1: Yeah we can. We can. It can be friendly. We

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don't have to be adversarial. It can be exchanged back

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and forth. It's fine. We do that often. So it's

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entirely up to the guest or the people that come on.

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If they want to have a heated exchange, I'll do that.

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If they just want to have a conversational exchange, we

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can do that as well.

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Speaker 5: Absolutely.

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Speaker 4: Again, I know I already apologize, you already forget me,

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but I just want to say so sorry, Like I

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really like embarrassed because honest, and I'm not gonna lie.

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Like when I was typing that, I actually was thinking.

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I was like, I think I might be exaggerating a

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little bit, and I still posted in any way, So

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that should just you know that I feel I definitely

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feel shame in that. But yeah, all right, everybody, I'm

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not going to take up much of this you know,

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space or anytime if you want me to stay up

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here and you want to hear my opinion on whatever

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we're going to talk about, but if.

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Speaker 1: Not, I'll just it's up to you. Like so we

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can talk about the principle behind relics, we can talk

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about what your issues are with Orthodoxy, or we can

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say it for another time. It's balls in your court.

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Speaker 4: Well again, you know, I'm not super familiar with the

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major distinctions between Orthodoxy and Catholicism.

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Speaker 2: I mainly I don't know if y'all people focus see

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what I post, I.

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Speaker 4: Mainly focus on Catholicism because that's where I'm what I'm

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more familiar with.

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Speaker 2: I have.

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Speaker 4: You know, half my family's Catholic grew up in Louisiana.

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Speaker 2: You know, Catholicism is all over the place.

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Speaker 4: Orthodoxy I've just it's like that's just within the past

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year and a half, I've really even understood that there

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was a distinction between the two. So, and as far

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as I'm concerned, is there a distinction between you know,

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what Catholics believe about relics versus what Orthodox believe about relics.

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Speaker 2: You know, there is there something different there.

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Speaker 1: Well, we would believe, I mean, there would be some

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level of distinction between what we would say about relics

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and what a Roman Catholic would say. We do not

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disagree about the reverencing. Yeah, somebody was calling you. We

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don't disagree about the reverencing of the relic, but we

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do disagree about what's going on there and how that happens.

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We believe in the doctrine of the energies, which is

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that God's uncreated energies permeate his creation, and in particular

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in a special way. The uncreated energies and power of

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God are present in his physical spatial dimensions and locations

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that are sanctified, so churches are still holy. In the

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New Testament, Peter talks about the Holy Mountain where the

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Lord was transfigured. That lets us know that places can

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still be sanctified. There was the pool where people would

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go in in the Gospel John to be healed, where

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an angel would stir the waters. There can be you know,

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holy pools even and in the Book of Actual, notice

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that when Paul, they take clothes from Paul's body and

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they heal people and it drives out demons. And this

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is on the principle of Elijah's bones that resurrect the

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person who falls into the tomb and the body touches

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his relics and he's resurrected. So we believe that the

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bodies of the saints are endued with the power of

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God because we become little arcs of God, and they

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do have that power. Roman Catholics do believe in these things,

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but they believe in a created grace, which is very

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different from uncreated grace in the Orthodox Church. But yeah,

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we do believe that the relics have power to do

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these things.

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Speaker 4: Interesting, no, yeah, and that's something that is undeniable. You know,

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when you read the scriptures, reading acts, it's like, oh,

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handkerchief is taken away to heal people. Where my concern

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is is is when you are presented with these you know,

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vague stories, you know, that there's not like a distinctive teaching.

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You know, there isn't a formula that's presented to us

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from apostolic.

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Speaker 2: Witness on uh the on the activity of.

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Speaker 4: The spirit through physical objects. We just hear that, you know,

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like for example, the woman who who just touched Jesus's

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uh clothes, right, Like, what.

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Speaker 2: Would I like?

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Speaker 6: Is that like.

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Speaker 2: Is that something I would formulate doctrine off of?

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Speaker 4: Or is that like like was it because she actually

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touched his wealth?

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Speaker 1: It's a great example. That's actually a great example because or.

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Speaker 2: Was it faith? You know it?

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Speaker 4: So is it like like for example, when Jesus talks

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to Nicodemus says, the activity of the spirit is.

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Speaker 2: Like the wind. You know, it goes just like the wind.

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Speaker 4: You can't see it, but it you know, it's powerful

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and you can effects in the same way. It's like,

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how can we formulate like solid, concrete doctrine on these

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vague you know, spiritual experiences that we're seeing, you know,

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in the first century church and acts. You know, the

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spirit is extremely active. People are being filled with the spirit.

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So I guess my concern is, like, are we making

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like false correlations?

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Speaker 1: There?

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Speaker 2: Was it the faith of the people.

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Speaker 4: Bringing the handkerchief, that was where the power was or

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was it the actual handkerchief because it was you know,

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touched by Peter or Paul or whoever.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, let me address that. So it's not in our

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view it wouldn't be an either. Or there's a relationship

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of synergy that goes on there, because for example, in

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the Gospels, you know, there's a place where it says

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and he Christ could not work many miracles there because

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of their lack of faith. It's not that Christ didn't

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have the power. It's that God has determined and decided

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to have a reciprocal relationship with human beings and creatures

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such that he won't if they don't have faith. So

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the power would not have gone out of him had

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the woman not had faith. You're right about that. But

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we can know some of the doctrines because if I

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recall and I'm going for memory, but I think the

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word there is dunamis, which is the Greek word that

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Paul uses when he talks about the energy and power.

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Dunamis innergaya that's at work in him, and he says

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it is the power of God at work in him

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to do according to God's purpose. So what is that

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power of God? I mean, is it an actual essence

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of God? Is it the divine persons? Or is it

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a divine energy? Well, thankfully we know because in Corinthians,

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Paul says in the chapter thirteen, where he's talking about

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the spiritual gifts, he says that the twelve and thirteen

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he says that the spirit apportions the gifts as he wills,

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according to his inner gaia. So these are energetic gifts.

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So this is a New Testament doctrine of the uncreated energies,

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and no church teaches us except the Orthodox Church. There

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are no churches that teach the uncredited energy doctrine. So

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Relics themselves points to this principle of divine dunamus and

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inner gaia. And it's not just scant examples we have.

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For example, in Hebrews thirteen, Paul says that the New

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Testament Church has an altar from which we eat, that

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those who serve in the tabernacle have no right to

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eat from. So Paul calls the New Testament alter a

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altar that we eat from. And in the earliest records

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of the Christian Church, after the death of the apostles.

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You can read something like the Martyrdom of Polycarp where

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they are collecting his relics, where they are reverencing the cross,

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even from that early of the day. If you go

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to Rome, you can go into the catacombs and you

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can see images of Christian iconography. You can see altars

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underneath the city of Rome in the catacombs. So the

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early Church had all of these things on this sacramental principle,

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which is why, for example, Jesus spits in the dirt

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and he makes clay to guy's eyes. I mean, Jesus

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could have just thought and willed the guy's eyes to

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be healed, but he chose to use stuff physical matter.

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That's what Paul says. The cross is the instrument of

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our salvation. That's why in the Orthodox Church we honor

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and revere the cross.

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Speaker 2: All right.

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Speaker 4: Now, again, where my concern lies is how do you

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set up an objective formula for use for putting this

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into practice, like because like like we've already established like

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there isn't necessarily an exact consistency with you know, divine objects,

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right like Jesus heals without dirt, Jesus heels with dirt.

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Speaker 7: Jesus heals the nobleman's son.

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Speaker 4: Without even being there, but then he could physically to Lazarus,

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so that there's you know, there's.

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Speaker 5: Obviously not.

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Speaker 4: A lot of consistency there, But I would argue that

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this is like Jesus using context, or like there's context

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is key in these in these scenarios, and it's not

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so much the actual physical objects, it's you know, well, let's.

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Speaker 1: Let's think about in John three, right, Jesus says that

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the bronze serpent was put up on a pole in

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the Book of Numbers to heal the Israelites when they

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were being bitten by the snakes, and he likens the

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cross to that very thing. So there's a continuity here

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of objects having the ability to be endued with sacramental grace, energetic,

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dunamous power. And that's not a principle that goes away

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in the New Testament. And I've already listed several examples,

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but there's many more. There's oil is used in the

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New Testament, bread and wine are used in the New Testament.

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These are physical means of grace that are premised on

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the incarnation itself. Jesus took on a human body which

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is the image of God, even in a in a

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created sense. So God doesn't have a problem with created things,

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but Protestants tend to.

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Speaker 2: Hey, can I add real quick this was brought up.

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Speaker 8: I thought that Russell At made the point I never

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thought about this, that if you notice Christ's miracles in

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the order of time, they become more and more incarnational.

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Speaker 2: That it starts sort of like just you know, uh,

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proclaiming that you know, you're you're.

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Speaker 8: You are healed, and then it each miracle that happens

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gets more and more incarnational.

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Speaker 2: It's the touching, it's going, it's.

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Speaker 8: Putting the there's a chronological order of thens, spitting into

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the mud and putting into the deaf man's ear, which

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itself is a pedagogical lesson.

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Speaker 2: So he's taking people, you know.

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Speaker 8: From the power of God's commands to then teach them

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that it's by touching and becoming one physically with my

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body that actually heals.

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Speaker 2: And of course it's a both.

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Speaker 8: And it's not simply your faith that saves you, for example,

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or vice versa, simply the power of Christ that saves you. It's,

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for example, in the confession, if you don't have faith

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and you're receiving the divine energy of Christ forgiveness. He's

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not going to force it on you that your lack

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of faith can prevent you from receiving the healing graces

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of Christ. So I would say it's a both, and

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it's not simply well, the person just had faith or

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Christ just said something. It's incarnational, it's tangible, it's sacramental,

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and it requires one's faith to receive that.

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Speaker 2: Mm hm.

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Speaker 1: Another brief point while you're thinking, is that you mentioned,

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you know, the guide into the Holy Spirit kind of

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leading us and letting us know the parameters of where

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this is and is inappropriate. You know, Jesus says that

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he promised the Holy Spirit to the church, right, So

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he says that in John when he sends the Spirit

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and acts to a Pentecost, there's the assumption, I believe

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that the Spirit really will lead and guide the church

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into all truth. I will not leave you as orphans,

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I will not forsake you. I will be with you

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until the end of the age. That promise didn't go away.

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Right with the first and second century church fathers like Clement,

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polycarp Ignacious, et cetera. They express the same faith as

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what was handed down from those apostles, and in those

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writings we already see the acceptance of relics and the

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veneration of the bodies of holy men.

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Speaker 2: Wait, wait, ritings, what were you talking about.

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Speaker 1: Martyred him a polycarp okay?

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Speaker 2: And then also did you mention Martyred?

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Speaker 1: So these are people that were taught by John the Apostle,

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for example polycarp.

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Speaker 8: Ei.

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Speaker 1: There anything else you want to discuss, I'm okay, that's fine.

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I mean, there's a here's another classic. If you look

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at Joshua seven in the Masoretic text, it points out

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that when Joshua in verse six, it says, Joshua tore

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his clothes and he fell to the earth on his

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fake face before the ark of the Lord until evening

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he and all the elders of Israel, and they put

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dust on their heads. And most Protestants who are sort

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of iconoclastic would have a tremendous problem with Orthodox you know,

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prostrating before the cross or bowing and venerating icons and

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this kind of stuff. And yet it's a very principle

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from the Old Testament itself, as Joshua prostrates before the arc.

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Speaker 4: Well, so so yeah, I've heard that argument plenty of times.

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Speaker 2: And the context of that is not venerating the arc.

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It is it is he's lamenting.

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Speaker 1: Well, then why is he falling down towards the arc?

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Speaker 2: Because the arc was.

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Speaker 4: The where the presence of God was made manifest.

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Speaker 1: But it isn't in a physical object with images.

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Speaker 2: On it, exactly and who and so.

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Speaker 1: They were bowing down to images?

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Speaker 4: And in the New Covenant, what is the image of

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the living God.

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Speaker 1: It's the person of the logos.

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Speaker 2: Jesus, Jesus Christ.

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Speaker 1: And so would you vow before his physical body?

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Speaker 2: I would?

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Speaker 7: I would bow before Jesus in the.

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Speaker 2: Flesh, yes, okay, which you know, not a picture of him.

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Speaker 1: Well wait a minute, is his body created.

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Speaker 4: His Yes, his body was formed in the wound marries wound.

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Speaker 1: So you're bowing before a created thing.

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Speaker 2: So okay.

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Speaker 4: So are we saying that Jesus is the created.

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Speaker 2: Being the body of absolutely okay. Well yeah, so I'm

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bowing before Jesus. So okay, Wait, are we separating Jesus

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flesh from his deities?

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Speaker 7: That we're doing is.

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Speaker 1: Not at all. In fact, if you read the Council

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of Ephesus, this is the very argument that cyril uses

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against Nestorius to prove the deity of Christ and the

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real presence in the Eucharist, that there's only one divine subject,

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because he says in the in the Canons of Ephesus, you,

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if Jesus was a mere man, you would be eating

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the flesh of a mere man, and that would be cannibalism.

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But he argues that you're the flesh of the god

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Man and that's what deifies you. So it's the Protestants

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that would reject Ephesus on this point.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah, No, I do reject real physical presence. I

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do believe in real presence. The spirit is real, and

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that's a that's a whole other topic in and of itself,

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but which I don't know if you guys.

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Speaker 1: Did Jesus deify the human body that he took on, Yeah.

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Speaker 2: His resurrection body was his glorified.

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Speaker 1: Body, right, So so God can make matter dea form

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and transfigured.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, I mean at the transfiguration he was appearing in

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his glorified state, you know, after the resurrection, he was

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in his resurrected So.

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Speaker 1: He only does that too Jesus's actual body, or does

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he do it to our bodies too?

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Speaker 4: Yeah, I believe our resurrection body is going to be

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you know, renewed in a you know, something that is

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distinct from what it is now.

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Speaker 1: Absolutely, So when John six talks about you must eat

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my flesh and drink my blood to have life in you,

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is that not talking about the Lord's Supper or the Eucharist.

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Speaker 4: So I believe John six does not point us to

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the Lord's table. It points us to the cross, and

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the Lord's table subsequently points us to the cross. So

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I'm actually I just finished a script. I'm gonna post

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a video soon. A lot of people have been like

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in my DMS. I don't know if y'all know the YouTuber.

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His name's how to Be Christian. He posted a video

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like a long time ago, and I made the mistake

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of arrogantly, you know, you know, saying like, oh, I'm

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gonna make this reply whatever whatever. And you know, he

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quote tweeted me for months and months and months, and

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me being a procrastinator and you know whatever, Long story short,

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I put it off.

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Speaker 2: But I finally finished the script. I'm gonna make a

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video on this.

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Speaker 4: So I've been studying through John and if you take

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the Gospel of John and you read it as from

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the perspective of John. Jesus preaches the gospel with a

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specific formula. Right, John six is not this separate chapter

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that's unrelated to John two or John three, or John

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four or five. You know, Jesus is very consistent in

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his in his preaching.

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Speaker 1: What does any of that have to do with the

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presence in the Eucharist.

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Speaker 4: It has to except we're talking about John six, are we.

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Speaker 1: Well you're talking about the logical sequence of the Gospel

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of John in this formula, But what does that have

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to do with the real presence in chapter six?

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Speaker 2: So well, you're saying that John six is like proof that.

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Speaker 1: I'm saying it's one example because when he talks about it,

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it offends a lot of people who walk away, and

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he says, is this a hard teaching? Now, if he's

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just teaching a spiritual presence that's identical to the Old

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Testament conception of the sacrament, So there would be nothing

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offensive or weird about that. Why didn't he stop them

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from walking away?

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Speaker 5: Okay?

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Speaker 4: So, so never in scripture do we see people understanding

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correctly and then walking away from Jesus.

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Speaker 1: It's always, but it wouldn't be a hard teaching, is

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what I'm saying.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, exactly.

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Speaker 7: They they did not understand the spiritual truth.

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Speaker 1: But he says this is a hard teaching. If it's

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a it's the if it's the Old Testament understanding of

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the sacramental presence, which is largely symbolic in John Heart,

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it's not a hard saying.

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Speaker 2: In John six, what was the first statement that made

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them quote.

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Speaker 1: Grumble, I don't have it pulled up?

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Speaker 2: What when he told them this brand offers his flesh.

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Speaker 4: No, when he said that he came down from heaven.

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That was the first thing that made them grumble.

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Speaker 1: Quote.

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Speaker 2: So when he's saying this is a.

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Speaker 4: Hard saying, they were confused about the entire him coming

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down from heaven.

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Speaker 2: How are you the bread? How are we going to

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eat your flesh? Like?

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Speaker 4: None of this makes sense because they were thinking, and

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let's look at the words of Augustine, for example, they

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were thinking carnally.

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Speaker 1: Augustine taught the real presence. When he talks about carnally,

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let me finish. I've read thousands of pages of Augustin,

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so let me explain what he's talking about. He's saying

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that by eating carnally, it's not that there's no physical eating.

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They thought they were going to get a free meal.

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John six. The grumblers are thinking, you've been feeding people

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with bread and with loaves and fish. Where's our free meal,

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Jesus saying, I'm not talking about a free meal of

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loaves and fishes. I'm talking about eating the true bread

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that comes down from Heaven. Guess what. That's the passover

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the Pasca. And if you look at Hebrews thirteen, the

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passives that I mentioned earlier, when Paul, we believe Paul

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wrote this. When Paul talks about the animals that are

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sacrificed by Israel at the tabernacle on the Temple, he

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says that those animals do not have the grace to

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profit those that eat of it. But we have an

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altar that we eat from, and our High priest offering

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is what does sanctify us. And verse twelve says that

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it is his blood that you're partaking of. So Paul

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calls it an altar with a sacrifice, and it's the

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blood of the high Priest, contrasted to the symbolic sacrifices

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of the animals. And you're telling me that, no, Jesus

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is just teaching the symbolic view of the Old Testament,

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which is a contradiction from what Paul's saying in Hebrews thirteen.

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Speaker 4: No, I believe in a real body and real blood,

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that really blood, really died on a real cross at

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a real point in time.

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Speaker 1: What is Paul talking about what happened on the cross?

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Or is he talking about the altar that we eat from.

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Speaker 4: When he's talking about the blood of Christ, He's talking

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about what happened on the cross, because that's where Jesus is.

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Speaker 1: I just read to you the passage where he's contrasting

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what we eat from what the Jews eat.

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Speaker 2: All right, well, let's read it then.

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Speaker 1: I just read it to you Hebrews thirteen. Do you

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want me to read it again.

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Speaker 2: Let me pull it up. Let me pull it up.

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Hebrews thirteen. Where are we at?

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Speaker 1: Verse nine?

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Speaker 2: Alrighty, all right.

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Speaker 5: Hold on.

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Speaker 2: Yesterday today do so? Verse nine?

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Speaker 4: He said, yeah, do not then, do not be led

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away by diverse and strange teachings. But it is good

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for the heart to be strengthened by grace, not by

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foods which have not benefited those devoted to them. We

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have an altar from which those who serve the tent

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have no right to eat.

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Speaker 1: Okay, down to verse thirteen.

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Speaker 4: All right, therefore, let us go to him outside the

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camp and bear the reproach, he endured.

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Speaker 1: Thirteen. Now two thirteen, you're skipping the verses that are

473
00:26:05,240 --> 00:26:06,000
the most important.

474
00:26:06,559 --> 00:26:07,000
Speaker 2: Oh, okay.

475
00:26:07,359 --> 00:26:09,799
Speaker 4: For the bodies of those animals whose blood is brought

476
00:26:10,559 --> 00:26:12,519
into the holy places by the high priest as a

477
00:26:12,559 --> 00:26:15,079
sacrifice for sin are burned outside the camp. So Jesus

478
00:26:15,079 --> 00:26:17,960
also suffered outside the gate in order to sanctify the

479
00:26:17,960 --> 00:26:21,400
people through his own blood. Therefore, let us go to

480
00:26:21,839 --> 00:26:25,839
him outside the camp and bear reproach, bear their approach.

481
00:26:25,519 --> 00:26:26,000
Speaker 2: He endured.

482
00:26:26,359 --> 00:26:29,519
Speaker 1: Okay. And then the next verse, okay.

483
00:26:30,119 --> 00:26:33,839
Speaker 4: For here we have no lasting city, but we seek

484
00:26:33,880 --> 00:26:34,839
the city that is to.

485
00:26:34,799 --> 00:26:37,279
Speaker 2: Come through him.

486
00:26:37,720 --> 00:26:40,440
Speaker 4: Then let us continually offer up a sacrifice of praise

487
00:26:41,480 --> 00:26:41,960
to God.

488
00:26:42,200 --> 00:26:44,880
Speaker 1: That is do you know what that word is there?

489
00:26:47,720 --> 00:26:50,720
What is the word eucharistia? Do you know what most

490
00:26:50,720 --> 00:26:52,599
Protestant scholars admit about.

491
00:26:52,319 --> 00:26:55,839
Speaker 2: This passage that means thanksgiving.

492
00:26:56,240 --> 00:26:59,319
Speaker 1: It means offering, which could be thanksgiving, or it could

493
00:26:59,359 --> 00:27:03,160
be a rich will service or ceremony. The entire passage

494
00:27:03,200 --> 00:27:08,200
is about the superiority of our eucharistic offering and meal

495
00:27:08,400 --> 00:27:11,640
that we eat versus what the Jews eat at the

496
00:27:11,680 --> 00:27:16,599
tabernacle the animals. Okay, so you're removing the contrast and

497
00:27:16,640 --> 00:27:20,079
you're literally you're literally saying that it's equivalent to the

498
00:27:20,160 --> 00:27:21,599
Old Testament symbolism.

499
00:27:22,240 --> 00:27:26,200
Speaker 2: No, I'm not. So how does this.

500
00:27:27,640 --> 00:27:30,599
Speaker 4: When you take Jesus's words into consideration when he says

501
00:27:30,960 --> 00:27:34,039
God is seeking such people to worship Him in spirit

502
00:27:34,079 --> 00:27:36,799
and in truth, and then the New Covenant, the law

503
00:27:36,880 --> 00:27:38,359
is going to be written on our hearts.

504
00:27:39,559 --> 00:27:42,039
Speaker 2: We're transitioning to the truths of the spirit here.

505
00:27:42,480 --> 00:27:45,279
Speaker 1: So I don't know what you think that means. Because

506
00:27:45,799 --> 00:27:49,400
God gave the church a liturgical worship service that's not

507
00:27:49,480 --> 00:27:52,599
recorded in the New Testament, and all the Apostolic churches

508
00:27:52,640 --> 00:27:54,039
have it. So I don't know what you mean by

509
00:27:54,039 --> 00:27:56,640
worshiping in spirit and truth because we think that means liturgy,

510
00:27:57,039 --> 00:27:59,920
because that's how God always was worshiped throughout the Old Testament.

511
00:28:01,000 --> 00:28:03,240
Speaker 4: Okay, So I mean right here he says, you know,

512
00:28:03,319 --> 00:28:06,240
sacrifice of praise to God. That is so he defines

513
00:28:06,279 --> 00:28:09,319
it the fruit of lips that acknowledge his name.

514
00:28:09,640 --> 00:28:13,880
Speaker 1: It's in the context now, it's in the context, you're

515
00:28:13,960 --> 00:28:14,759
doing a false.

516
00:28:14,599 --> 00:28:17,079
Speaker 2: Either orger it means hold on, no, it doesn't.

517
00:28:16,839 --> 00:28:19,319
Speaker 1: It's a false either or the whole context is eating

518
00:28:19,640 --> 00:28:22,519
and you're saying, no, it's really just about spiritual praising.

519
00:28:23,799 --> 00:28:25,759
Is this that the megachurch in the first century? Did

520
00:28:25,799 --> 00:28:27,559
Paul go to the megachurch where they were praising with

521
00:28:27,559 --> 00:28:28,839
their lips and I didn't have the Eucharist?

522
00:28:29,480 --> 00:28:32,920
Speaker 8: And by the way, spiritual truth doesn't mean not a

523
00:28:33,119 --> 00:28:39,920
visible there church. It means the Holy Spirit, okay, the

524
00:28:40,039 --> 00:28:40,920
Spirit of truth.

525
00:28:41,799 --> 00:28:43,680
Speaker 2: Okay, yeah, which is.

526
00:28:43,519 --> 00:28:48,279
Speaker 8: In a visible manifest visibly in a visible body.

527
00:28:49,839 --> 00:28:50,240
Speaker 2: And like.

528
00:28:52,279 --> 00:28:55,039
Speaker 4: When Jesus says God is seeking such people to worship him,

529
00:28:55,079 --> 00:28:56,119
what's the context?

530
00:28:56,279 --> 00:29:01,000
Speaker 1: You just keep assuming the evangelical spiritual load, low church

531
00:29:01,039 --> 00:29:04,000
interpretation of all these passages, which you've not demonstrated. I'm

532
00:29:04,039 --> 00:29:08,240
giving you counter evidence to that low church symbolic interpretation,

533
00:29:08,319 --> 00:29:10,920
and you're just restating the symbolism.

534
00:29:10,880 --> 00:29:12,599
Speaker 2: All right, but you're not letting me talk so.

535
00:29:13,880 --> 00:29:16,200
Speaker 1: Because you just keep restating that it's a symbolic thing.

536
00:29:17,960 --> 00:29:19,680
Speaker 2: I don't think I've used the word symbol once.

537
00:29:21,119 --> 00:29:23,400
Speaker 1: Okay, you called it quote spiritual, which in your mind,

538
00:29:23,440 --> 00:29:26,680
as an evangelical is contrasted to the physical or the flesh.

539
00:29:26,720 --> 00:29:28,960
But that's why I keep making the point that that's

540
00:29:28,960 --> 00:29:31,839
what well, that's what Paul is contrasting to the Jews

541
00:29:31,839 --> 00:29:35,319
who eat at the temple the Tabernacle in a carnal way.

542
00:29:35,559 --> 00:29:38,680
He's not saying that the way to eat non carnally

543
00:29:38,880 --> 00:29:42,799
is not with your mouth, because he says we eat

544
00:29:43,200 --> 00:29:46,200
at an altar. You don't have an alter.

545
00:29:47,400 --> 00:29:48,279
Speaker 5: Okay, So.

546
00:29:50,039 --> 00:29:53,400
Speaker 4: When Jesus says in John six, he says, come to me,

547
00:29:53,759 --> 00:29:56,119
and you will never hunger. Believe in me, and you

548
00:29:56,119 --> 00:29:59,599
will never thirst. So when Jesus says that, he says,

549
00:29:59,640 --> 00:30:01,599
you will know never hunger and you will never thirst

550
00:30:02,000 --> 00:30:04,319
when you come to him and believe, believe in him.

551
00:30:04,599 --> 00:30:09,160
Why then, so I know why I continually partake of

552
00:30:09,920 --> 00:30:13,559
the elements of the bread and the wine.

553
00:30:13,680 --> 00:30:15,640
Speaker 2: I know why I continually do that.

554
00:30:16,160 --> 00:30:21,880
Speaker 4: But why do you continually partake If Jesus says you

555
00:30:21,920 --> 00:30:24,519
will never hunger and you will never thirst, why then,

556
00:30:24,759 --> 00:30:25,880
in your tradition do.

557
00:30:25,880 --> 00:30:30,400
Speaker 2: You have to continually because time bro hold on?

558
00:30:31,119 --> 00:30:37,960
Speaker 4: Because in your theology that sacrifice does not perfect you,

559
00:30:38,039 --> 00:30:42,079
because sin can still make you fall away from grace,

560
00:30:42,160 --> 00:30:45,000
and therefore you need to come back to the throne

561
00:30:45,039 --> 00:30:48,640
of grace and re obtain what has been lost. And

562
00:30:48,720 --> 00:30:51,720
so when Jesus says, come to me, and you will

563
00:30:51,720 --> 00:30:55,880
never hunger, and believe in me, and you will never thirst, Right,

564
00:30:56,400 --> 00:30:57,839
you're negating those words.

565
00:30:57,920 --> 00:30:59,880
Speaker 1: No, I'm not. I have a different interpretation.

566
00:31:00,000 --> 00:31:03,559
Speaker 4: Look then jumping down. Look he says, gnaw on my flesh.

567
00:31:03,640 --> 00:31:06,680
That must mean that he's going to start this whole

568
00:31:06,720 --> 00:31:10,200
liturgical process of calling him down from heaven into a

569
00:31:10,240 --> 00:31:12,880
wafer and his blood is made present.

570
00:31:13,440 --> 00:31:15,160
Speaker 1: Roman Catholics we don't have wafers.

571
00:31:15,920 --> 00:31:17,279
Speaker 2: Okay, Well, whatever he is.

572
00:31:17,519 --> 00:31:20,039
Speaker 1: I mean, you say whatever I mean. Roman Catholics use

573
00:31:20,079 --> 00:31:24,359
a judaized bread, So it's that matters.

574
00:31:25,759 --> 00:31:34,039
Speaker 4: All, right, point being, I don't know. I mean, we're

575
00:31:34,079 --> 00:31:35,079
jumping all over the place here.

576
00:31:35,119 --> 00:31:40,000
Speaker 8: Well this was great because I remember this was brought

577
00:31:40,079 --> 00:31:42,079
up once. I think it hormly.

578
00:31:43,680 --> 00:31:48,000
Speaker 2: Why went to church once I read some of the Bible.

579
00:31:48,720 --> 00:31:52,799
Speaker 8: Isn't that enough? You go get him Jesus, You go

580
00:31:52,839 --> 00:31:54,960
get him, Jesus. Why do I need to go to

581
00:31:55,039 --> 00:31:56,839
church again? Why do I need to know?

582
00:31:56,960 --> 00:31:59,359
Speaker 1: This is just like an overly simple reading.

583
00:31:59,079 --> 00:32:01,519
Speaker 2: Of Catholics a life source.

584
00:32:03,680 --> 00:32:06,279
Speaker 8: From him in different way, like, so, yes, of course,

585
00:32:06,359 --> 00:32:09,640
you will never first, when you're with me, do all

586
00:32:09,759 --> 00:32:14,559
kinds of things that separate us from God's powers.

587
00:32:14,640 --> 00:32:17,599
Speaker 4: Okay, So when Paul says that nothing will separate him

588
00:32:17,599 --> 00:32:20,880
from the love of Christ, I mean that nothing.

589
00:32:21,519 --> 00:32:25,240
Speaker 1: You know, you have to balance passages with other passages.

590
00:32:25,279 --> 00:32:28,440
You can't take one verse and squeeze every verse into that.

591
00:32:28,519 --> 00:32:31,279
Speaker 7: Verse, because exactly I agree.

592
00:32:31,960 --> 00:32:35,400
Speaker 1: But let me let me I agree. Listen.

593
00:32:36,640 --> 00:32:38,400
Speaker 2: Six in a vacuum, you can't read John.

594
00:32:38,599 --> 00:32:41,519
Speaker 1: I didn't take it. I went immediately to a eucharistic passage,

595
00:32:41,519 --> 00:32:43,359
and he was thirteen to help explain it. I didn't

596
00:32:43,400 --> 00:32:45,400
take it in a vacuum, and I argue that it

597
00:32:45,400 --> 00:32:46,640
was only John six the first.

598
00:32:46,559 --> 00:32:48,200
Speaker 2: Let's read from John's perspective.

599
00:32:49,720 --> 00:32:51,920
Speaker 1: I don't know that you have John's perspective.

600
00:32:51,720 --> 00:32:56,799
Speaker 4: Consistently in John's gospel. Jesus is very consistent. In John

601
00:32:56,880 --> 00:32:59,880
chapter two, he uses the earthly metaphor of a temple

602
00:33:00,000 --> 00:33:02,640
being destroyed to represent the spiritual truth of the resurrection

603
00:33:02,680 --> 00:33:06,359
of his body. The people who were there were confused

604
00:33:06,359 --> 00:33:07,640
because they were thinking physically.

605
00:33:07,839 --> 00:33:09,880
Speaker 2: But the disciples, yeah, you just keep it.

606
00:33:09,920 --> 00:33:15,279
Speaker 1: Listen, you're making an assumption. Listen, I know what you're doing.

607
00:33:15,359 --> 00:33:19,559
You're contrasting spirit. Listen, it's a false dilemma. You're contrasting

608
00:33:19,640 --> 00:33:20,519
spirits of flesh.

609
00:33:20,599 --> 00:33:21,759
Speaker 2: Number let me talk.

610
00:33:22,920 --> 00:33:24,880
Speaker 1: I already know what you're doing. It's not a good

611
00:33:25,000 --> 00:33:29,920
argument you're contrasting. No, it's not. It's a gnostic view.

612
00:33:29,960 --> 00:33:31,440
I'm trying to tell you. That's why you're out of

613
00:33:31,440 --> 00:33:33,680
a chord with what the Church always taught about this.

614
00:33:34,000 --> 00:33:36,279
Speaker 2: What is gnostic about my view?

615
00:33:36,359 --> 00:33:40,920
Speaker 4: Mike, I see you laughing out there, bro, I'll block you, bruh.

616
00:33:41,000 --> 00:33:44,920
Speaker 1: What's gnostic is that the passages about spirit are not

617
00:33:45,039 --> 00:33:50,880
contrasted to body or physicality. It's Holy Spirit. And every

618
00:33:50,920 --> 00:33:54,960
Protestant does this gnostic anti matter reading into these texts.

619
00:33:54,960 --> 00:33:55,160
Speaker 3: I know.

620
00:33:55,160 --> 00:33:57,240
Speaker 1: I used to be a Protestant. When I read Romans,

621
00:33:57,279 --> 00:34:00,359
Paul talks about the body of the flesh fighting the Spirit.

622
00:34:00,480 --> 00:34:04,160
I assumed that that was physical body fighting the Holy

623
00:34:04,200 --> 00:34:09,039
Spirit because somehow quote immaterial things are better than physical things.

624
00:34:09,239 --> 00:34:10,960
And that's a gnostic heresy.

625
00:34:11,519 --> 00:34:11,800
Speaker 2: All right.

626
00:34:12,000 --> 00:34:16,480
Speaker 4: No one is saying that immaterial things are better. What

627
00:34:16,519 --> 00:34:20,639
we're saying is that that is fallen and needs renewal.

628
00:34:20,679 --> 00:34:23,239
The first coming of Christ, Why is there a second

629
00:34:23,239 --> 00:34:23,760
coming of Rice.

630
00:34:23,960 --> 00:34:26,079
Speaker 2: The first coming of Christ is to deal with our sin.

631
00:34:26,119 --> 00:34:27,000
And what did sin do?

632
00:34:27,119 --> 00:34:30,840
Speaker 4: According to Ezekiel, the soul dies from sin, So the

633
00:34:30,840 --> 00:34:32,360
first body and the soul dies.

634
00:34:32,400 --> 00:34:33,519
Speaker 1: So I don't know what you're talking about.

635
00:34:33,760 --> 00:34:37,199
Speaker 4: Well, yes, through Adam, all flesh dies, because because all sin.

636
00:34:37,280 --> 00:34:39,280
Speaker 7: So yes, the flesh and the soul die.

637
00:34:39,320 --> 00:34:41,000
Speaker 2: But jesus first coming.

638
00:34:40,840 --> 00:34:44,280
Speaker 4: Was to make us born again in the spirit.

639
00:34:44,360 --> 00:34:47,039
Speaker 1: And this and that happens through baptism, water.

640
00:34:46,840 --> 00:34:48,480
Speaker 2: Baptism physical.

641
00:34:49,719 --> 00:34:53,199
Speaker 1: Okay, sure, Now wait a minute, So you're saying sure,

642
00:34:53,400 --> 00:34:57,199
now there's water that's used as a medium of regeneration.

643
00:34:57,280 --> 00:34:58,760
You're saying sure to that you agree with that?

644
00:34:59,480 --> 00:34:59,960
Speaker 5: No, I don't.

645
00:35:00,159 --> 00:35:02,960
Speaker 4: But you're I mean, you're just shifting or what argument

646
00:35:03,000 --> 00:35:04,679
do you want to focus on you want to jump in?

647
00:35:04,760 --> 00:35:07,719
Speaker 1: No, I'm making another point that physical things like water

648
00:35:07,800 --> 00:35:10,360
are mediums of grace. That's why an acts two. It says,

649
00:35:10,480 --> 00:35:13,159
repent and be baptized for the remission of your sins,

650
00:35:13,400 --> 00:35:15,719
and then it says that thousands of them were actually

651
00:35:15,760 --> 00:35:17,199
physically water baptized.

652
00:35:17,719 --> 00:35:20,599
Speaker 2: Okay, so Cornelius receive the spirit without water.

653
00:35:20,639 --> 00:35:23,159
Speaker 1: I'm not saying that God can't send his Holy Spirit

654
00:35:23,400 --> 00:35:25,840
and do it in that way. But in Acts two

655
00:35:25,920 --> 00:35:28,800
thirty eight as well as Titus three, it specifies that

656
00:35:29,280 --> 00:35:32,480
the labor of baptism is the labor of regeneration. Does

657
00:35:32,519 --> 00:35:33,639
Titust three not say that?

658
00:35:35,880 --> 00:35:36,639
Speaker 2: Repeat yourself?

659
00:35:37,000 --> 00:35:41,000
Speaker 1: Does Titus three not call the labor of baptism the

660
00:35:41,119 --> 00:35:42,320
labor of regeneration.

661
00:35:45,000 --> 00:35:46,840
Speaker 2: I'll have to go study that. I'm not gonna talk.

662
00:35:47,559 --> 00:35:49,880
Speaker 1: And that's the same thing Peter's talking about in Acts two.

663
00:35:50,199 --> 00:35:52,920
I'm not saying that the Holy Spirit can't move outside

664
00:35:52,960 --> 00:35:57,320
of the presence of water, but the normative means by

665
00:35:57,360 --> 00:36:01,960
which regeneration occurs is through physical water. So throughout all

666
00:36:02,000 --> 00:36:06,000
of this, your war is against physical objects, and all

667
00:36:06,039 --> 00:36:09,639
of your interpretations are that somehow quote spirit is antimatter.

668
00:36:10,400 --> 00:36:13,559
Speaker 2: Okay, all right, got it.

669
00:36:13,719 --> 00:36:17,199
Speaker 4: That's your interpretation of what my position is.

670
00:36:17,199 --> 00:36:18,199
Speaker 1: Is that not your position?

671
00:36:18,519 --> 00:36:21,199
Speaker 2: Back to what I was saying, John three.

672
00:36:21,480 --> 00:36:23,760
Speaker 1: So you're not gonna address any verses. You're just gonna

673
00:36:23,760 --> 00:36:25,880
do a walk through of what I already addressed.

674
00:36:26,679 --> 00:36:30,280
Speaker 4: Okay, yeah, yes, because you're you're shifting the you're shifting

675
00:36:30,320 --> 00:36:31,079
the goal posts.

676
00:36:31,320 --> 00:36:34,480
Speaker 1: No, bringing up further examples is not moving the goal posts.

677
00:36:34,480 --> 00:36:35,679
That's a different fallacy.

678
00:36:35,920 --> 00:36:38,239
Speaker 2: You gotta let me were I told.

679
00:36:38,119 --> 00:36:41,239
Speaker 1: You you're a you're walking through So when you say, okay,

680
00:36:41,320 --> 00:36:45,239
Jesus's body is the true temple and you destroy the

681
00:36:45,280 --> 00:36:50,039
other temple, that doesn't help your case. Jesus body is physical, No.

682
00:36:50,199 --> 00:36:51,400
Speaker 2: I yes, I agree.

683
00:36:51,440 --> 00:36:57,719
Speaker 4: The physical body of Christ was necessary, was absolutely necessary,

684
00:36:57,880 --> 00:37:02,119
because just as sin came into the world through the flesh,

685
00:37:02,360 --> 00:37:04,719
it had to be destroyed in the flesh.

686
00:37:05,119 --> 00:37:10,239
Speaker 1: How does this prove your low view of sacraments.

687
00:37:10,960 --> 00:37:12,400
Speaker 2: I don't have a low view of sacrament.

688
00:37:12,639 --> 00:37:14,480
Speaker 1: Yes, you do. By definition, you literally do.

689
00:37:15,079 --> 00:37:17,599
Speaker 7: I believe that communion is worship.

690
00:37:17,400 --> 00:37:19,400
Speaker 1: Is water, baptism regeneration.

691
00:37:20,920 --> 00:37:21,760
Speaker 2: I believe that.

692
00:37:21,719 --> 00:37:26,239
Speaker 4: I am regenerated by the Holy Spirit prior to water baptists.

693
00:37:26,239 --> 00:37:28,199
Speaker 1: Then you have a low view of the sacraments.

694
00:37:28,239 --> 00:37:32,719
Speaker 2: By definition, baptism is worship and it is except.

695
00:37:32,639 --> 00:37:35,519
Speaker 1: Is it the labor of regeneration according to Titus three five,

696
00:37:35,639 --> 00:37:37,679
not by works of righteousness, which we have done, but

697
00:37:37,719 --> 00:37:40,679
according to his mercy, He saved us through the washing

698
00:37:40,760 --> 00:37:42,000
of the labor regeneration.

699
00:37:42,880 --> 00:37:46,800
Speaker 4: Yeah, and the and he Peter describes the waters as

700
00:37:47,159 --> 00:37:48,760
what's not doing the washing there?

701
00:37:49,880 --> 00:37:50,480
Speaker 2: It's the spirit.

702
00:37:50,559 --> 00:37:52,679
Speaker 1: Now he says that it's not washing your body. He

703
00:37:52,679 --> 00:37:53,840
doesn't say it's not water.

704
00:37:55,639 --> 00:37:57,960
Speaker 2: He says, yeah, not by a washing of dirt off.

705
00:37:57,840 --> 00:38:01,360
Speaker 1: Your body, So not taking a bath. Water baptism is

706
00:38:01,400 --> 00:38:02,039
not a bath.

707
00:38:02,440 --> 00:38:04,519
Speaker 7: So he's making a distinction that, no, he's not.

708
00:38:05,400 --> 00:38:09,239
Speaker 1: It's not a bath, it's water baptism. Do you think

709
00:38:09,280 --> 00:38:11,159
when you're taking a bath at night that that's the

710
00:38:11,159 --> 00:38:16,039
same thing as a baptism. So that's what Peter's talking about.

711
00:38:16,039 --> 00:38:18,000
He's not saying that there's not a presence of the

712
00:38:18,000 --> 00:38:20,679
Holy Spirit to regenerate you at water baptism.

713
00:38:20,760 --> 00:38:22,840
Speaker 4: I didn't say that the Holy Spirit was not present

714
00:38:22,880 --> 00:38:23,559
in baptism.

715
00:38:24,039 --> 00:38:25,559
Speaker 1: You said that it's not regeneration.

716
00:38:25,920 --> 00:38:28,440
Speaker 4: You just said that I believe that. I believe that

717
00:38:28,480 --> 00:38:31,760
the Christian is regenerated by the Holy Spirit through faith

718
00:38:31,960 --> 00:38:33,159
prior to baptism.

719
00:38:33,239 --> 00:38:35,960
Speaker 1: You're saying that, But the Bible doesn't say that. It

720
00:38:36,000 --> 00:38:39,199
continually links it to the celebration of the sacrament.

721
00:38:40,400 --> 00:38:42,320
Speaker 7: It doesn't use that exact wording, but it should.

722
00:38:42,360 --> 00:38:45,000
Speaker 1: No, it doesn't. My examples that you won't talk about

723
00:38:45,079 --> 00:38:47,039
literally link it to baptism.

724
00:38:47,239 --> 00:38:49,280
Speaker 4: Cornelius, I mean, dude, I mean you're saying, oh, but

725
00:38:49,320 --> 00:38:50,519
that's just an exception, like that.

726
00:38:50,639 --> 00:38:54,199
Speaker 1: No, it's not. The Holy Spirit can move, the Holy

727
00:38:54,239 --> 00:38:55,199
Spirit can remove.

728
00:38:56,400 --> 00:38:58,280
Speaker 2: You're taking the work of God is saying, no, that's

729
00:38:58,280 --> 00:38:58,800
an exception.

730
00:39:00,039 --> 00:39:02,920
Speaker 1: I'm not. I'm dealing with all of the passages, and

731
00:39:02,960 --> 00:39:06,559
that's that's prior. The thief on the cross is prior

732
00:39:06,599 --> 00:39:09,400
to the institution of water baptism and Acts two as

733
00:39:09,440 --> 00:39:12,519
the normative means. I already said normative. I didn't deny

734
00:39:12,599 --> 00:39:14,920
the possibility the Holy Spirit doing and moving.

735
00:39:14,960 --> 00:39:15,280
Speaker 2: People.

736
00:39:15,400 --> 00:39:19,639
Speaker 1: Stop interrupting me. You're new to all this, man interrupting, Make.

737
00:39:19,599 --> 00:39:22,039
Speaker 2: The distinction of normative means of grace?

738
00:39:22,840 --> 00:39:24,320
Speaker 1: Okay, so we're done.

739
00:39:25,079 --> 00:39:26,719
Speaker 2: When does that? When does it make that distinction?

740
00:39:27,039 --> 00:39:30,480
Speaker 1: So you okay, you literally think that using terminology that

741
00:39:30,599 --> 00:39:33,239
helps to clarify is not in the Bible itself. Is

742
00:39:33,280 --> 00:39:37,039
the word trinity in the Bible. No, but so that's

743
00:39:37,079 --> 00:39:39,320
a double standard. You're using the double standard.

744
00:39:40,400 --> 00:39:41,400
Speaker 2: It's perfectly laid out.

745
00:39:41,440 --> 00:39:44,000
Speaker 4: No, I'm just saying, like, where are you establishing that?

746
00:39:44,880 --> 00:39:48,280
Speaker 1: You said that there's no example. All the examples I'm

747
00:39:48,280 --> 00:39:50,519
giving you acts too, where it says repent and be

748
00:39:50,559 --> 00:39:54,320
baptized for their mission of sins and then they're water

749
00:39:54,360 --> 00:39:55,280
baptized in next two.

750
00:39:55,440 --> 00:39:59,119
Speaker 4: Right, and then but and then it says John baptized

751
00:39:59,119 --> 00:39:59,599
with water.

752
00:40:00,000 --> 00:40:03,199
Speaker 1: But that's the Old Testament. They did it there. What

753
00:40:03,360 --> 00:40:07,960
do you know? When is when is Jesus's baptism instituted?

754
00:40:11,199 --> 00:40:12,679
Speaker 2: When he sends the Holy Spirit.

755
00:40:13,039 --> 00:40:15,880
Speaker 1: No, at the end of the gospel, when he says,

756
00:40:15,920 --> 00:40:18,960
go forth and baptize all the nations, that's when he

757
00:40:19,039 --> 00:40:23,400
institutes it. Before he stopped interrupting me, he shut up.

758
00:40:23,440 --> 00:40:28,079
He says it is a trinitarian ritual action, and that's

759
00:40:28,079 --> 00:40:30,519
what they do in Acts. Matthew twenty eight is talking

760
00:40:30,519 --> 00:40:33,679
about water baptism. You didn't even know that.

761
00:40:41,480 --> 00:40:42,760
Speaker 2: No, I know what Matthew eight.

762
00:40:43,280 --> 00:40:46,639
Speaker 1: You know you said baptism was instituted at Pentecost. You

763
00:40:46,679 --> 00:40:49,559
said Acts two. It's Matthew twenty eight, not Acts too.

764
00:40:50,239 --> 00:40:53,440
Speaker 2: Oh okay, yeah, all right. I was confused by.

765
00:40:52,880 --> 00:40:56,679
Speaker 1: Your question, the obvious question that everyone should know, when

766
00:40:56,800 --> 00:40:59,840
was baptism instituted? You were confused by that? How would

767
00:40:59,840 --> 00:41:01,440
you confuse why a basic question?

768
00:41:03,760 --> 00:41:09,960
Speaker 4: All right, I'm sorry to ask a question about normative means.

769
00:41:09,960 --> 00:41:15,920
Speaker 8: It's established that so you can't appeal to cases prior

770
00:41:15,960 --> 00:41:21,559
to the institution of baptism. Is possibly Norman means. Now,

771
00:41:21,639 --> 00:41:26,440
as Dave pointed out, that can God send the Holy

772
00:41:26,559 --> 00:41:30,400
Spirit and save somebody apart from the normative means?

773
00:41:30,440 --> 00:41:34,440
Speaker 2: Sure, but Protestants always take an exception of the rule

774
00:41:34,719 --> 00:41:37,559
to be the example, to be the example, then I

775
00:41:37,599 --> 00:41:38,280
can do that.

776
00:41:38,280 --> 00:41:41,960
Speaker 8: It's exactly the same analogy of saying, well, could I

777
00:41:42,159 --> 00:41:45,320
say there a terminal cancer without going to a specialist

778
00:41:45,360 --> 00:41:48,239
in the hospital. It's like, yeah, but okay, maybe there

779
00:41:48,280 --> 00:41:50,400
was a case or two where that happened. Like, why

780
00:41:50,400 --> 00:41:54,280
in the world would you build a whole therapy on

781
00:41:54,519 --> 00:41:57,920
not going to get healed because you could be healed

782
00:41:57,920 --> 00:41:59,239
apart from the normative means?

783
00:41:59,480 --> 00:42:01,360
Speaker 2: That's probatism for you. It's crazy.

784
00:42:01,400 --> 00:42:04,400
Speaker 8: It's like, well, even if you found those cases, do

785
00:42:04,519 --> 00:42:10,079
we're exception to the rules after the institution of baptism,

786
00:42:10,239 --> 00:42:12,679
You're going to base a rule on the exception to

787
00:42:12,719 --> 00:42:15,079
the rule and put yourself in that sort of danger.

788
00:42:15,159 --> 00:42:21,679
Speaker 2: That's just seems crazy to me. Call me crazy, Okay,

789
00:42:21,760 --> 00:42:24,039
we will, Oh.

790
00:42:24,039 --> 00:42:26,519
Speaker 4: Yeah, and I and I I understand that, like we're

791
00:42:26,519 --> 00:42:29,559
in agreement that we disagree with each other, and I'm

792
00:42:29,599 --> 00:42:31,239
just trying to, you know, have.

793
00:42:31,159 --> 00:42:34,639
Speaker 1: A well, no, it's been a great conversation and yeah.

794
00:42:34,760 --> 00:42:36,800
Speaker 2: And I apologize that we're getting a little right.

795
00:42:37,840 --> 00:42:39,800
Speaker 1: Maybe we can shift a little bit because we're going

796
00:42:39,840 --> 00:42:42,920
to disagree there. Maybe a more fundamental question would be,

797
00:42:44,000 --> 00:42:46,639
how do you know what the word of God is

798
00:42:47,280 --> 00:42:49,199
in terms of the canon of scripture and what is

799
00:42:49,239 --> 00:42:50,480
your basis for it?

800
00:42:51,360 --> 00:42:54,000
Speaker 4: The cannon conundrum Protestant nightmare.

801
00:42:57,159 --> 00:42:58,039
Speaker 2: Yeah, So, I mean.

802
00:43:01,679 --> 00:43:05,599
Speaker 4: I would say that the recognition of infallibility does not

803
00:43:05,679 --> 00:43:11,639
require the possession of infallibility. The simple historical fact, and

804
00:43:11,679 --> 00:43:14,639
this is a historical fact that I think we should

805
00:43:14,719 --> 00:43:19,039
all agree on, is that neither Jewish reception of the

806
00:43:19,079 --> 00:43:23,639
Old Testament nor early Christian reception of the Scriptures happened

807
00:43:23,719 --> 00:43:25,360
through means of infallibility.

808
00:43:26,760 --> 00:43:27,079
Speaker 2: Period.

809
00:43:27,239 --> 00:43:30,320
Speaker 1: I mean, you just contradict yourself within like three sentences.

810
00:43:30,440 --> 00:43:33,559
Speaker 2: You just said that you take apart in my statement.

811
00:43:33,599 --> 00:43:36,679
Speaker 1: Please, it's the first thing you said which was confused.

812
00:43:36,719 --> 00:43:39,360
I don't know what you mean by infallibility can happen

813
00:43:39,440 --> 00:43:41,159
through What did you say? How did you phrase it?

814
00:43:42,000 --> 00:43:48,599
Speaker 4: Recognition of infallibility meaning recognizing God's word does not require

815
00:43:49,079 --> 00:43:51,960
possession of infallibility, meaning that I.

816
00:43:51,960 --> 00:43:56,840
Speaker 1: Have so Mathew, So Mouthew might not have written Matthew's gospel.

817
00:44:00,000 --> 00:44:02,119
Speaker 2: If I'm not answering, that's.

818
00:44:01,679 --> 00:44:02,719
Speaker 1: You're not going to answer it.

819
00:44:04,960 --> 00:44:06,960
Speaker 7: It's like like I don't understand.

820
00:44:06,960 --> 00:44:08,880
Speaker 2: I don't understand how to answer that question.

821
00:44:09,719 --> 00:44:13,519
Speaker 1: Well, it's an important question because it underdoes the assumptions

822
00:44:13,559 --> 00:44:15,480
of your argument. So why would I don't understand why

823
00:44:15,480 --> 00:44:16,960
you wouldn't at least attempt to answer it.

824
00:44:18,960 --> 00:44:21,679
Speaker 2: Well, it's a topic that I'm not well studied on.

825
00:44:21,840 --> 00:44:26,719
Speaker 1: Okay. Well, Apostolic authorship is very important for inclusion into

826
00:44:26,760 --> 00:44:29,800
the canon. And Matthew's Gospel doesn't tell you that Matthew

827
00:44:29,880 --> 00:44:32,039
the Disciple wrote it. So guess where you get that

828
00:44:32,159 --> 00:44:36,039
knowledge from?

829
00:44:36,360 --> 00:44:39,800
Speaker 2: Tell me tradition, got it?

830
00:44:40,079 --> 00:44:44,360
Speaker 1: So you're relying on tradition? Is that also perhaps wrong?

831
00:44:46,000 --> 00:44:46,360
Speaker 2: All right?

832
00:44:46,360 --> 00:44:48,800
Speaker 7: Well Acts seventeen eleven.

833
00:44:48,840 --> 00:44:54,559
Speaker 1: You're not so your two quote way fallacy. You're asking

834
00:44:54,599 --> 00:44:57,920
me a question when I ask you a question. Yeah,

835
00:44:58,159 --> 00:44:59,480
that's two quote way fallacy.

836
00:45:00,559 --> 00:45:05,119
Speaker 2: All right, whatever, all right, whatever, Okay.

837
00:45:03,960 --> 00:45:06,039
Speaker 1: So you don't think fallaousy is matter. I don't understand

838
00:45:06,039 --> 00:45:09,639
why you just blow past this. I asked you a

839
00:45:09,719 --> 00:45:11,840
question and you say I'm not going to answer it,

840
00:45:11,920 --> 00:45:13,519
and then I'm gonna You're gonna ask me a question

841
00:45:13,519 --> 00:45:15,440
that's called a two quote quay fallacy. And then you

842
00:45:15,440 --> 00:45:16,039
say whatever.

843
00:45:17,079 --> 00:45:20,920
Speaker 4: Okay, Uh, well, ask the question again, what are we

844
00:45:20,920 --> 00:45:23,800
saying here? I told you I'm not an expert on

845
00:45:24,039 --> 00:45:27,480
how we have determined how math that Matthew wrote the

846
00:45:27,519 --> 00:45:28,320
Gospel of Matthew.

847
00:45:28,400 --> 00:45:29,559
Speaker 1: The only way is through tradition.

848
00:45:29,679 --> 00:45:31,599
Speaker 4: I'm not going to speak on something i'm not an

849
00:45:31,639 --> 00:45:33,719
expert in because I will make myself out to be

850
00:45:33,800 --> 00:45:36,119
a fool. And I don't intend on I don't intend

851
00:45:36,119 --> 00:45:38,639
on doing that. And I see all you guys laughing

852
00:45:38,639 --> 00:45:41,480
in the and you know out there, why don't you

853
00:45:41,519 --> 00:45:43,559
come up here and you know, tell me why we

854
00:45:43,599 --> 00:45:45,159
have every single book of the Bible, you know?

855
00:45:45,199 --> 00:45:47,519
Speaker 1: All right, So look, let's just stop there, because I

856
00:45:47,559 --> 00:45:49,280
don't want us to go in a bad direction. We

857
00:45:49,400 --> 00:45:51,960
can go and study and read and you can look

858
00:45:52,000 --> 00:45:54,239
into the question if you want, and maybe we can

859
00:45:54,320 --> 00:45:55,880
come back, and we don't. I don't want this to

860
00:45:55,920 --> 00:45:59,119
go in like a sour direction, because well, you apologize,

861
00:45:59,159 --> 00:46:00,440
you're you're a good dude.

862
00:46:00,639 --> 00:46:02,599
Speaker 2: I want to say. I want to say one thing. Sure,

863
00:46:02,599 --> 00:46:07,239
all right, guys, come on, like y'all are he don't.

864
00:46:07,039 --> 00:46:07,719
Speaker 1: Worry about the change.

865
00:46:07,719 --> 00:46:09,400
Speaker 2: You can look at you can't look at the chance,

866
00:46:11,079 --> 00:46:11,599
just don't.

867
00:46:12,199 --> 00:46:17,239
Speaker 4: Yeah, all right, well, so how do we determine what

868
00:46:17,280 --> 00:46:20,119
scripture is? And my simple answer, and I know this

869
00:46:20,159 --> 00:46:23,280
isn't going to satisfy the people who are listening, but

870
00:46:24,480 --> 00:46:28,280
proposed say, okay, say you have something, you're proposing something to.

871
00:46:28,239 --> 00:46:29,199
Speaker 2: Be the word of God.

872
00:46:29,559 --> 00:46:32,280
Speaker 4: Say, look, I have this is I'm calling this the

873
00:46:32,280 --> 00:46:36,039
Gospel of Matthew. Matthew wrote it. It's the Word of God.

874
00:46:37,159 --> 00:46:39,119
And i've you know, I've never seen it before. I

875
00:46:39,480 --> 00:46:42,960
haven't studied or anything. What's my first, you know, line

876
00:46:42,960 --> 00:46:47,239
of action. That's why I was pointing to Acts seventeen eleven.

877
00:46:47,400 --> 00:46:49,840
Speaker 1: So you have proposed, So you're begging the question because

878
00:46:49,840 --> 00:46:52,119
we don't know yet that Acts is actually part of

879
00:46:52,159 --> 00:46:52,719
the scriptures.

880
00:46:52,840 --> 00:46:56,599
Speaker 4: Okay, I'm just using what happened in Acts as an

881
00:46:56,639 --> 00:46:59,440
example of what could be done to determine what is

882
00:46:59,440 --> 00:47:00,159
the Word of God.

883
00:47:00,800 --> 00:47:05,239
Speaker 1: But that example is assuming the thing in question, because

884
00:47:05,239 --> 00:47:08,159
we don't know yet that that's even allowed in the canon.

885
00:47:08,199 --> 00:47:11,840
Maybe Acts, maybe, Luke, you know about like the pseudonymous

886
00:47:11,880 --> 00:47:15,480
Gospels and the you know, gnostic Gospels, the false Gospels.

887
00:47:15,559 --> 00:47:19,440
Speaker 4: Right, there are objective ways in which we have found

888
00:47:19,719 --> 00:47:21,559
them to be unreliable.

889
00:47:20,960 --> 00:47:24,119
Speaker 1: And I'm not I understand that, but I'm just pointing

890
00:47:24,119 --> 00:47:26,800
out that just because there's a name mentioned like Luke,

891
00:47:27,079 --> 00:47:30,360
or even if it said Matthew, like, it doesn't tell

892
00:47:30,400 --> 00:47:34,880
you that that's authentically the disciple of Jesus. It might be.

893
00:47:35,079 --> 00:47:37,760
Speaker 2: You know, we're getting off topic.

894
00:47:38,239 --> 00:47:40,360
Speaker 1: So no, it's not on topic. It's perfectly on topic.

895
00:47:40,599 --> 00:47:43,639
Speaker 4: Okay, we have proposed, we have proposed word of God.

896
00:47:43,679 --> 00:47:45,800
This is proposed to be the speech of God. You

897
00:47:45,960 --> 00:47:48,800
take what you know to be the speech of God

898
00:47:48,880 --> 00:47:51,840
and measure it against what is proposed to be the

899
00:47:51,880 --> 00:47:55,679
speech of God. Yeah, you have the apostles coming to

900
00:47:56,320 --> 00:48:00,880
the church in Berea, and it's preaching the Gospel to that.

901
00:48:01,199 --> 00:48:04,480
Speaker 1: And then this doesn't work as an example because acts.

902
00:48:04,639 --> 00:48:06,400
You don't know that acts is the word of God.

903
00:48:06,480 --> 00:48:08,559
So you're using a thing in question. So it's begging

904
00:48:08,559 --> 00:48:11,480
the question. Can I give you an example of what

905
00:48:11,519 --> 00:48:15,360
I'm talking about? If you scroll down on my wall,

906
00:48:15,400 --> 00:48:17,960
you'll see an old tweet that I retweeted called Protestantism

907
00:48:18,000 --> 00:48:20,800
and solicriture refuted. And what I do there is I

908
00:48:20,920 --> 00:48:24,880
use the Baptist textual scholar Lee McDonald's list of the

909
00:48:24,920 --> 00:48:29,000
debates about the canon and the different church father lists

910
00:48:29,039 --> 00:48:32,239
into fourth, fifth, sixth century, and you'll notice that whether

911
00:48:32,280 --> 00:48:35,920
it's the New Testament or the Old Testament, there's variation

912
00:48:36,119 --> 00:48:39,239
amongst all of these different lists. So what I want

913
00:48:39,280 --> 00:48:43,519
to know is whether it's origin, or whether it's Chrysostum,

914
00:48:43,679 --> 00:48:47,199
or whether it's Athanasius's list or Serial of Jerusalem's lists.

915
00:48:47,599 --> 00:48:50,400
How do you, as a Protestant know, or what do

916
00:48:50,440 --> 00:48:53,000
we do to determine amongst these church fathers who are

917
00:48:53,079 --> 00:48:56,480
not Protestant, which one is the right list?

918
00:48:58,039 --> 00:49:01,000
Speaker 4: Exactly what I was saying, you know, the what we

919
00:49:01,119 --> 00:49:02,719
know to be the speech of God.

920
00:49:02,599 --> 00:49:05,119
Speaker 1: Which you're using the Book of Acts, and the Book

921
00:49:05,159 --> 00:49:07,400
of Acts is not known yet to be the word

922
00:49:07,440 --> 00:49:08,679
of God. That's the thing in question.

923
00:49:10,000 --> 00:49:17,280
Speaker 4: Well, I mean, okay, so how how do we know,

924
00:49:17,519 --> 00:49:19,320
I mean, what the earliest.

925
00:49:21,880 --> 00:49:23,119
Speaker 2: Testimony of the church?

926
00:49:23,400 --> 00:49:26,360
Speaker 4: I mean, the the apostles themselves handed these letters letters

927
00:49:26,360 --> 00:49:28,440
off to someone, right.

928
00:49:29,119 --> 00:49:34,119
Speaker 1: Yes, yeah, so but you know we don't have onographa.

929
00:49:33,639 --> 00:49:37,239
Speaker 2: Right no, yes, yes, I know, I know.

930
00:49:37,519 --> 00:49:40,159
Speaker 1: Okay, So how do we know the authentic from the

931
00:49:40,199 --> 00:49:46,239
non authentic ones? Do you know what the earliest list

932
00:49:46,239 --> 00:49:47,719
of canon of the canon is.

933
00:49:49,840 --> 00:49:53,480
Speaker 4: The earliest, not necessarily, but I do know that there

934
00:49:53,559 --> 00:49:57,400
are lists prior to you know, the Council that everybody

935
00:49:57,440 --> 00:50:02,119
loves to reference in like what three eighty three eighty

936
00:50:02,159 --> 00:50:03,119
three or something like that.

937
00:50:03,119 --> 00:50:05,360
Speaker 2: There were plenty of lists prior to that.

938
00:50:06,320 --> 00:50:09,039
Speaker 1: I don't know about plenty of it, but they're from.

939
00:50:09,039 --> 00:50:12,559
Speaker 4: A handful a handful, and funny enough, most of them

940
00:50:12,639 --> 00:50:14,239
were closer to the Protestant canon.

941
00:50:14,320 --> 00:50:18,360
Speaker 1: And no, that is completely false. You're totally wrong. I mean,

942
00:50:18,400 --> 00:50:19,639
I've got them pulled up. Do you want to look,

943
00:50:19,719 --> 00:50:21,519
you want to walk through them and see that that's false.

944
00:50:23,159 --> 00:50:26,119
Speaker 2: No, I didn't say they were exactly.

945
00:50:25,599 --> 00:50:29,360
Speaker 1: But no, they're not even close to the Protestant canon. Okay,

946
00:50:30,119 --> 00:50:32,360
that's just simply not sure. I've got Canon eighty five

947
00:50:32,559 --> 00:50:34,800
of the Apostolic Canons pulled up right here. This is

948
00:50:34,840 --> 00:50:37,199
one of the earliest. The other earliest is the Canons

949
00:50:37,199 --> 00:50:40,760
of Laodicea and the canon that's listed in the Apostolic

950
00:50:40,800 --> 00:50:44,239
Canons from the three hundreds. It includes uh oh, the

951
00:50:44,280 --> 00:50:46,480
Deutero canon that is not the Protestant canon.

952
00:50:46,960 --> 00:50:48,519
Speaker 2: Okay, so you got one.

953
00:50:49,039 --> 00:50:52,280
Speaker 1: No, this is not one. This is canon law, Church law.

954
00:50:52,480 --> 00:50:56,679
For the church in general having a normative canon.

955
00:50:58,280 --> 00:51:00,559
Speaker 2: Where is this originating from? This is just church.

956
00:51:00,719 --> 00:51:02,559
Speaker 7: Everyone in general is agreeing on it.

957
00:51:02,760 --> 00:51:06,199
Speaker 1: Much of the church that follows the Apostolic canons. Correct,

958
00:51:06,199 --> 00:51:09,559
it's the earliest, it's the Let me finish, it's the earliest.

959
00:51:09,639 --> 00:51:13,199
Let me finish. It's the earliest collection of canon law

960
00:51:13,239 --> 00:51:14,880
in the churches in the three hundreds.

961
00:51:15,199 --> 00:51:19,840
Speaker 4: Okay, and then you have plenty of testimony after that

962
00:51:20,199 --> 00:51:24,360
saying that the canon is second tier canon, a distinct

963
00:51:25,480 --> 00:51:28,199
good for edification but not for faith.

964
00:51:28,239 --> 00:51:31,119
Speaker 1: And no, that's not true. What does Athenians say that

965
00:51:31,159 --> 00:51:32,559
the deer canon is for?

966
00:51:33,320 --> 00:51:33,840
Speaker 2: I don't know.

967
00:51:33,920 --> 00:51:35,480
Speaker 1: He says it's for the Catecumans.

968
00:51:36,960 --> 00:51:38,679
Speaker 2: Yeah, well I haven't I have said that. So I

969
00:51:38,679 --> 00:51:39,320
can't speak on that.

970
00:51:39,360 --> 00:51:44,320
Speaker 1: Because so, well, that refutes what you just said. Athenasian

971
00:51:44,400 --> 00:51:47,679
is not just one guy. What is the What ist Augustine?

972
00:51:47,679 --> 00:51:49,159
What does Augustine say about the Duro.

973
00:51:49,119 --> 00:51:52,760
Speaker 2: Can He affirmed the exactly right.

974
00:51:52,800 --> 00:51:54,079
Speaker 1: So is that now, two guys?

975
00:51:54,320 --> 00:51:55,159
Speaker 2: What about Jerome?

976
00:51:55,760 --> 00:51:59,639
Speaker 1: What about Wait a minute, no, serial eralism, serial Jruism

977
00:51:59,679 --> 00:52:01,679
does not have the Protestant cannon. He doesn't help your case.

978
00:52:02,239 --> 00:52:04,800
You have one. No, he doesn't you have one church

979
00:52:04,880 --> 00:52:09,320
father Jerome. Why are we supposed to follow Jerome Jersalem. No,

980
00:52:09,400 --> 00:52:12,119
he doesn't. He doesn't have your canon. He does not

981
00:52:12,199 --> 00:52:13,440
have the Protestant canon.

982
00:52:14,559 --> 00:52:16,000
Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah, he included Baru.

983
00:52:16,199 --> 00:52:18,920
Speaker 1: Yeah, that's not the Protestant canon and he I don't

984
00:52:18,920 --> 00:52:23,440
think he has revelation if I recall. So, how does

985
00:52:23,480 --> 00:52:25,039
how does Cyril Jerusalem help your case?

986
00:52:25,480 --> 00:52:27,039
Speaker 2: Old Testament that's no, no, no, it's.

987
00:52:26,960 --> 00:52:28,760
Speaker 1: Not just the Old Testament. It's both the New Testament

988
00:52:28,760 --> 00:52:30,480
and the Old Testament. It's the canon.

989
00:52:31,920 --> 00:52:34,760
Speaker 2: That's what that's what where we differ here, But that

990
00:52:34,800 --> 00:52:35,239
you're wrong.

991
00:52:36,760 --> 00:52:38,760
Speaker 7: No, the Old Testament that's I'm talking about.

992
00:52:38,840 --> 00:52:40,920
Speaker 1: No, I'm talking about the canon. That's not just the

993
00:52:40,960 --> 00:52:47,880
Old Testament. There's differing New Testament lists. Athanatius goes to

994
00:52:48,000 --> 00:52:51,760
Rome to convince Rome of Hebrews and Revelation because they

995
00:52:51,760 --> 00:52:54,760
didn't think it was canonical. Cyril of Jerusalem does not

996
00:52:54,800 --> 00:52:59,000
have revelation in his canon. Okay, so that doesn't help

997
00:52:59,000 --> 00:52:59,360
your case.

998
00:52:59,880 --> 00:53:01,599
Speaker 2: Aware that there was debate.

999
00:53:01,360 --> 00:53:02,880
Speaker 1: On Okay, so how do we know which one's right?

1000
00:53:02,880 --> 00:53:04,280
Who we followed? That's my question.

1001
00:53:05,880 --> 00:53:08,000
Speaker 4: Again, back to what I said earlier. You test what

1002
00:53:08,079 --> 00:53:09,559
is proposed to be the speech of God with what

1003
00:53:09,639 --> 00:53:11,079
is known to be the speech of God.

1004
00:53:11,159 --> 00:53:12,840
Speaker 1: And you're referring to the Book of Acts, which is

1005
00:53:12,840 --> 00:53:13,320
in question.

1006
00:53:14,960 --> 00:53:18,480
Speaker 4: Okay, all right, well, I feel like I'm not really

1007
00:53:18,480 --> 00:53:21,840
getting myself anywhere. But let me ask you, how do

1008
00:53:21,960 --> 00:53:24,960
you determine what is the candidates scripture?

1009
00:53:25,400 --> 00:53:28,320
Speaker 1: Well, for the Orthodox Church, the highest authority is an

1010
00:53:28,360 --> 00:53:29,480
ecumenical council.

1011
00:53:29,880 --> 00:53:33,519
Speaker 2: Okay, so a bunch of dudes that just decide.

1012
00:53:34,239 --> 00:53:37,800
Speaker 1: No, not a bunch of dudes. It's the church fathers

1013
00:53:37,800 --> 00:53:40,239
with apostolic succession, who have the gift of the Holy

1014
00:53:40,280 --> 00:53:42,119
Spirit given to them. Does Paul say that the Holy

1015
00:53:42,119 --> 00:53:44,079
Spirit's transferred to the Lanyon of Hands to Timothy?

1016
00:53:45,679 --> 00:53:45,800
Speaker 5: Uh?

1017
00:53:45,960 --> 00:53:46,760
Speaker 2: Yeah, absolutely?

1018
00:53:46,800 --> 00:53:48,559
Speaker 1: Oh but you think that that's not true because you

1019
00:53:48,559 --> 00:53:49,840
don't believe in absolute.

1020
00:53:49,440 --> 00:53:51,880
Speaker 2: Succession, not in the way you defind it.

1021
00:53:51,960 --> 00:53:55,440
Speaker 1: Now, I just said what happens in the in the

1022
00:53:55,679 --> 00:53:57,639
in Timothy, So what do you mean.

1023
00:53:57,760 --> 00:53:58,079
Speaker 2: Yeah.

1024
00:53:58,119 --> 00:54:02,079
Speaker 4: Paul also says that after he leaves the church, false

1025
00:54:02,239 --> 00:54:05,400
Christians will infiltrate the church successfully.

1026
00:54:04,719 --> 00:54:08,760
Speaker 1: And no he doesn't say successfully the church, No, no,

1027
00:54:08,840 --> 00:54:10,440
he does not. He says that they will enter.

1028
00:54:10,320 --> 00:54:12,719
Speaker 2: The church, will draw away the disciples draw away.

1029
00:54:12,760 --> 00:54:14,599
Speaker 1: That doesn't mean that destroy the church. The gates of

1030
00:54:14,599 --> 00:54:15,880
Hell cannot pail against the church.

1031
00:54:16,079 --> 00:54:18,440
Speaker 2: Never said that, Never said the gates of Hell prevailed.

1032
00:54:19,719 --> 00:54:22,400
Speaker 1: But if they infiltrate and subvert the Church, then the

1033
00:54:22,440 --> 00:54:23,519
gates of Hell prevailed.

1034
00:54:23,639 --> 00:54:24,639
Speaker 7: You have this line.

1035
00:54:24,679 --> 00:54:26,280
Speaker 1: Now you're changing, so you don't want to address. You'll

1036
00:54:26,280 --> 00:54:26,840
throw stuff out.

1037
00:54:27,119 --> 00:54:29,119
Speaker 2: Is this line of succession that you have? Is this

1038
00:54:29,199 --> 00:54:31,079
list of men? Is that an infallible list?

1039
00:54:32,920 --> 00:54:36,920
Speaker 1: It's it's not a question of infallibility list. It's not

1040
00:54:37,000 --> 00:54:40,079
a question of infallibility. If I know that the Testament

1041
00:54:40,639 --> 00:54:46,039
stop interrupting me. Athanasius says, for example, that at the

1042
00:54:46,079 --> 00:54:49,440
Council of Nicea, the Holy Spirit spoke through those fathers. Right,

1043
00:54:50,039 --> 00:54:54,480
So I don't have to accord to the councils when

1044
00:54:54,519 --> 00:54:57,840
they state something about the scriptures the same status of

1045
00:54:57,880 --> 00:55:01,719
divine revelation. I would say, divine relation is infallible. But

1046
00:55:01,800 --> 00:55:04,800
I don't believe that divine revelation is restricted to written texts.

1047
00:55:04,800 --> 00:55:07,800
And you do. But when when Peter and Paul preach,

1048
00:55:07,880 --> 00:55:09,360
they call it the Word of God, do you believe

1049
00:55:09,400 --> 00:55:11,519
that it's only written or believe that the preaching is

1050
00:55:11,559 --> 00:55:12,400
also I.

1051
00:55:12,320 --> 00:55:15,920
Speaker 4: Believe yeah, the apostolic testimony oral written.

1052
00:55:15,800 --> 00:55:19,360
Speaker 1: The Okay, So is there an oral thing that's passed on?

1053
00:55:20,840 --> 00:55:21,840
Speaker 2: No, we're not.

1054
00:55:21,800 --> 00:55:24,559
Speaker 4: Told that oral tradition would be passed on infallibly.

1055
00:55:24,639 --> 00:55:27,480
Speaker 1: Now no, is it whether you think it's infallible or not,

1056
00:55:27,639 --> 00:55:28,679
is that it passed on at all?

1057
00:55:29,800 --> 00:55:32,320
Speaker 2: Oh? Absolutely, the oral tradition has always passed on.

1058
00:55:34,119 --> 00:55:36,639
Speaker 1: Okay, And was what about one of those things being

1059
00:55:36,679 --> 00:55:37,440
the authorship of.

1060
00:55:37,400 --> 00:55:42,920
Speaker 7: Matthew Like I said, that's not something I'm.

1061
00:55:43,000 --> 00:55:45,119
Speaker 1: Because it refused you because it refused the point you

1062
00:55:45,199 --> 00:55:45,559
just made?

1063
00:55:46,320 --> 00:55:48,639
Speaker 2: What point? And how does it refeet the point?

1064
00:55:48,800 --> 00:55:52,960
Speaker 1: It's apostolic tradition that Matthew the disciple wrote the Gospel

1065
00:55:53,000 --> 00:55:58,239
of Matthew. Okay, that refutes the point you just made?

1066
00:55:58,960 --> 00:56:03,199
Speaker 2: What and what point? What did I say? That's being

1067
00:56:03,199 --> 00:56:03,840
repeated here.

1068
00:56:05,199 --> 00:56:08,360
Speaker 1: If you can deny the oral tradition and that we don't,

1069
00:56:08,400 --> 00:56:10,519
we're not bound by that, then I'm not bound by

1070
00:56:10,519 --> 00:56:13,599
the claim of the church that Matthew disciple wrote Matthew's Gospel.

1071
00:56:13,639 --> 00:56:19,719
And I can throw out Matthew on your position that

1072
00:56:19,880 --> 00:56:22,440
all right? That yeah, well there we go. Good job.

1073
00:56:23,320 --> 00:56:26,360
That's where Protestant leads to chopping up the Protestants and leads.

1074
00:56:26,400 --> 00:56:28,440
That's what Luther did. By the way, when Luther and they.

1075
00:56:28,440 --> 00:56:31,920
Speaker 8: Noticed to the confusion, as we always see the two

1076
00:56:32,039 --> 00:56:38,840
categories between normative what's binding and uh an epistemic category

1077
00:56:38,880 --> 00:56:45,639
of infallibility. So uh St Paul says, you're too old.

1078
00:56:45,719 --> 00:56:50,159
He's speaking about normative, right. So it's a separate question.

1079
00:56:51,480 --> 00:56:55,239
And we can answer that whether the oral teachings and

1080
00:56:55,280 --> 00:56:58,760
the written teachings are infallible or not. But that's a

1081
00:56:58,800 --> 00:57:01,599
separate question. Is binding on you? Do you have to

1082
00:57:01,599 --> 00:57:04,960
hold it? And Saint Paul obviously says you do.

1083
00:57:06,079 --> 00:57:08,760
Speaker 7: I have to be bound to a line of succession.

1084
00:57:10,159 --> 00:57:15,159
Speaker 1: Yes you do. Yeah, Teacher Paul just said, and I

1085
00:57:15,199 --> 00:57:17,559
gave you one example of this oral teaching, which was

1086
00:57:17,639 --> 00:57:20,039
that Matthew the Disciple wrote the Gospel of Matthew. And

1087
00:57:20,079 --> 00:57:21,760
you said, no, I don't have to believe that, and fine,

1088
00:57:21,960 --> 00:57:22,400
throw it out.

1089
00:57:22,760 --> 00:57:24,440
Speaker 2: Okay, see you cut me off.

1090
00:57:24,639 --> 00:57:25,360
Speaker 1: That's what you said.

1091
00:57:25,840 --> 00:57:26,639
Speaker 2: That's not what I said.

1092
00:57:26,679 --> 00:57:28,679
Speaker 1: That what you said? What are you talking about? People

1093
00:57:28,719 --> 00:57:31,079
just heard you say it. Fine, I don't accept that.

1094
00:57:31,079 --> 00:57:33,159
Speaker 2: That's not what what did you say?

1095
00:57:34,159 --> 00:57:36,599
Speaker 4: Okay you said, oh so yeah, you know, so you

1096
00:57:36,599 --> 00:57:38,960
can just throw out the idea that that Matthew wrote

1097
00:57:38,960 --> 00:57:39,320
the Gospel.

1098
00:57:39,360 --> 00:57:40,719
Speaker 2: And I was like, yeah, that's what you just and

1099
00:57:40,719 --> 00:57:41,440
then you cut me off.

1100
00:57:41,440 --> 00:57:44,639
Speaker 4: You're like Lucie. He said, yeah, you cut me off.

1101
00:57:44,719 --> 00:57:45,719
You're putting words in my mouth.

1102
00:57:45,760 --> 00:57:47,079
Speaker 1: No, no, I'm stating that.

1103
00:57:47,519 --> 00:57:49,519
Speaker 2: You say, oh, just like Martin Luther cut books out

1104
00:57:49,519 --> 00:57:49,880
of the Bible.

1105
00:57:49,920 --> 00:57:51,920
Speaker 7: Martin Luther actually never took books out.

1106
00:57:51,719 --> 00:57:55,480
Speaker 1: Of No, he actually did. He removed the no in

1107
00:57:55,599 --> 00:57:59,039
the German New Testament. He changed words, and then when

1108
00:57:59,039 --> 00:58:02,159
he translated his Bible it does not have the duderal canon.

1109
00:58:02,199 --> 00:58:03,559
I've read six of Luther's books.

1110
00:58:03,599 --> 00:58:05,840
Speaker 7: He's the first edition of Who.

1111
00:58:05,639 --> 00:58:09,039
Speaker 1: Cares about his first edition? If the tradition later on

1112
00:58:09,280 --> 00:58:11,639
is that he says, I want to punch Moses' teeth out,

1113
00:58:11,679 --> 00:58:14,320
and I don't care about the law, and he doesn't believe.

1114
00:58:14,519 --> 00:58:17,480
He says that Maccabe's is not scripture because it doesn't

1115
00:58:17,480 --> 00:58:19,519
preach the Word of God and includes prayers for the dead.

1116
00:58:21,320 --> 00:58:27,519
Speaker 2: Yeah, I agree on what basis that?

1117
00:58:27,800 --> 00:58:30,000
Speaker 4: Well, first off, that it doesn't it doesn't align with

1118
00:58:30,920 --> 00:58:32,400
the testimony of scripture.

1119
00:58:32,119 --> 00:58:34,719
Speaker 1: Again begging the question, the question is, how do you

1120
00:58:34,760 --> 00:58:37,599
know what's in scripture? And you're saying that Matcwbees isn't

1121
00:58:37,599 --> 00:58:39,239
scripture because it doesn't align with scripture.

1122
00:58:40,880 --> 00:58:44,679
Speaker 2: Okay, well scripture isn't one book, so okay.

1123
00:58:44,480 --> 00:58:59,320
Speaker 1: That's totally totally dishonest. Get out of here with that nonsense, Mike, Mike,

1124
00:58:59,400 --> 00:59:04,400
I mute, Hey, Jay, what's up? Yes, sir?

1125
00:59:05,519 --> 00:59:07,360
Speaker 6: Oh wait? Did did Indiana get booted?

1126
00:59:07,599 --> 00:59:07,840
Speaker 1: Yep?

1127
00:59:08,920 --> 00:59:12,199
Speaker 6: Oh? Man? Okay, Well I was I was just gonna say.

1128
00:59:12,199 --> 00:59:15,199
Speaker 9: I mean, I don't know how you came to, you know,

1129
00:59:15,239 --> 00:59:17,920
get him in his face because he agreed to a

1130
00:59:18,000 --> 00:59:21,079
debate with myself being moderated by Jake growth Nak about

1131
00:59:21,079 --> 00:59:24,039
you know, solo Scriptura's hatred of Mary. So I was

1132
00:59:24,079 --> 00:59:26,639
just gonna, you know, warn you about the type of

1133
00:59:26,679 --> 00:59:27,559
guy that he is.

1134
00:59:28,480 --> 00:59:29,519
Speaker 6: And I came in a little late.

1135
00:59:29,559 --> 00:59:31,280
Speaker 9: So I guess you guys are having a good discussion

1136
00:59:31,360 --> 00:59:32,440
that it morphed into something.

1137
00:59:32,519 --> 00:59:34,880
Speaker 1: Well we've already gone for an hour, so it's I

1138
00:59:34,920 --> 00:59:36,639
gave him one out, I give another out.

1139
00:59:37,519 --> 00:59:39,519
Speaker 6: Yeah, he's he's a total dishonest actor.

1140
00:59:39,920 --> 00:59:42,079
Speaker 9: If he doesn't have chat, GPT or his notes in

1141
00:59:42,079 --> 00:59:43,199
front of him, he can't talk.

1142
00:59:43,400 --> 00:59:43,480
Speaker 2: Ye.

1143
00:59:44,119 --> 00:59:45,920
Speaker 9: The dude is a total snake in the grass. But

1144
00:59:46,000 --> 00:59:48,760
you know, kudos to you for having him on. He

1145
00:59:48,960 --> 00:59:52,760
he literally blocks or you know, runs away from any

1146
00:59:52,760 --> 00:59:53,599
other debate.

1147
00:59:53,320 --> 00:59:54,239
Speaker 6: So I'm glad to see.

1148
00:59:54,039 --> 00:59:56,400
Speaker 2: That at least he spoke on Well.

1149
00:59:56,400 --> 00:59:58,400
Speaker 1: He also says that I'm not in a position to debate,

1150
00:59:58,480 --> 00:59:59,360
but he's right to debate.

1151
00:59:59,519 --> 01:00:03,400
Speaker 9: So no, he's he's I don't even understand how anyone

1152
01:00:03,440 --> 01:00:06,119
who could hold full of scripture can give an interpretation

1153
01:00:06,199 --> 01:00:10,039
of what he believes a passage from a scripture means.

1154
01:00:10,400 --> 01:00:13,400
Doesn't make any sense to me. But you know, I

1155
01:00:13,760 --> 01:00:16,679
enjoyed your talk with him, as I enjoy pretty much

1156
01:00:16,679 --> 01:00:17,599
a lot of the things that you do.

1157
01:00:18,360 --> 01:00:18,480
Speaker 2: Uh.

1158
01:00:18,599 --> 01:00:20,039
Speaker 6: So I just wanted to say that, and I wish

1159
01:00:20,039 --> 01:00:21,360
he was on here because I did.

1160
01:00:21,840 --> 01:00:25,679
Speaker 9: I did challenge him to a boxing match, and I

1161
01:00:25,719 --> 01:00:27,760
said that if he won, I would leave the Catholic

1162
01:00:27,840 --> 01:00:31,280
Church and go to whatever church he worships.

1163
01:00:31,320 --> 01:00:34,440
Speaker 1: That quote whip. I actually was thinking too, because he

1164
01:00:35,039 --> 01:00:37,760
initially before he apologized, had lied about what I said,

1165
01:00:37,760 --> 01:00:40,559
and then he apologized. So I'm not gonna go that route,

1166
01:00:40,559 --> 01:00:42,519
but I wanted to offer a boxing match as well.

1167
01:00:42,599 --> 01:00:44,599
Speaker 2: I'm not kidding, No, the dude.

1168
01:00:44,760 --> 01:00:47,440
Speaker 6: The dude says that he finally, Oh, I finally.

1169
01:00:47,079 --> 01:00:49,159
Speaker 9: You know, have a script to debate how to be

1170
01:00:49,239 --> 01:00:52,719
Christian that's been easily six months in the works.

1171
01:00:52,760 --> 01:00:53,679
Speaker 6: I don't I don't.

1172
01:00:53,920 --> 01:00:57,360
Speaker 9: Know of anybody who needs six months to prepare for

1173
01:00:57,400 --> 01:01:01,360
a simple debate on either a space or you. He's

1174
01:01:01,400 --> 01:01:03,559
full of He's full of bs. I mean, he posts

1175
01:01:03,559 --> 01:01:07,000
pictures of you know, the Virgin Mary on the shoe,

1176
01:01:08,239 --> 01:01:10,960
you know, of people with with the title saying, oh

1177
01:01:11,000 --> 01:01:12,280
look at this ship that I stepped in.

1178
01:01:12,320 --> 01:01:14,159
Speaker 6: I just I can't stand him, and I wish you

1179
01:01:14,239 --> 01:01:16,519
would have been here so I can confront him.

1180
01:01:16,639 --> 01:01:17,280
Speaker 2: Lord of Mercy.

1181
01:01:17,320 --> 01:01:23,559
Speaker 8: I can't imagine on judgment Day what Christ is going

1182
01:01:23,599 --> 01:01:25,840
to be, what Christ is.

1183
01:01:25,800 --> 01:01:27,559
Speaker 2: Actually going to say to people who.

1184
01:01:27,599 --> 01:01:30,440
Speaker 8: I mean, if you dissed somebody's mother, that's worse than dissing.

1185
01:01:31,760 --> 01:01:37,599
We'll come on in. Anyways, I thought that was.

1186
01:01:37,559 --> 01:01:38,280
Speaker 2: All work out there.

1187
01:01:38,320 --> 01:01:40,159
Speaker 6: But again, thank you for doing what you do.

1188
01:01:40,079 --> 01:01:42,199
Speaker 1: And well, I appreciate that. What I mean, you're welcome

1189
01:01:42,239 --> 01:01:43,960
to stay and we can have a conversation about Rome

1190
01:01:44,000 --> 01:01:44,400
if you want.

1191
01:01:45,800 --> 01:01:50,119
Speaker 9: I I defer to someone better than me. Obviously I'm

1192
01:01:50,119 --> 01:01:53,800
not going to get into that, but yeah, but always again,

1193
01:01:53,840 --> 01:01:56,800
appreciate you, and uh, I'll see you know, I'll keep

1194
01:01:56,880 --> 01:01:58,159
listening a stay for only about.

1195
01:01:58,000 --> 01:01:58,599
Speaker 6: Five more minutes.

1196
01:01:58,760 --> 01:02:04,599
Speaker 1: Okay, welcome everybody. We had a good conversation there for

1197
01:02:04,800 --> 01:02:07,039
over an hour. If you would like to support the stream,

1198
01:02:07,079 --> 01:02:09,239
you can do so via the superchet function there. Superchets

1199
01:02:09,239 --> 01:02:12,840
are also pinned there. You can do it also natively

1200
01:02:12,880 --> 01:02:15,639
with YouTube. If you would like to call in, you

1201
01:02:15,639 --> 01:02:20,599
can call in through the x space right here. Here

1202
01:02:20,679 --> 01:02:27,760
is the x space link to call in. And let's

1203
01:02:27,800 --> 01:02:30,239
do a little brief look at this before we go

1204
01:02:30,320 --> 01:02:32,519
to the next person in line. Looks like we got

1205
01:02:32,559 --> 01:02:36,280
quite a few people in line. So this is Lee

1206
01:02:36,360 --> 01:02:43,599
McDonald's book where he lists the cannon from various Old

1207
01:02:43,639 --> 01:02:47,280
and New Testament lists from various church fathers. I recommend

1208
01:02:47,320 --> 01:02:50,000
every Protestant who's interested in this question to read Lee

1209
01:02:50,079 --> 01:02:52,880
McDonald's book because it's one of the best, as well

1210
01:02:52,880 --> 01:02:56,159
as F. F. Bruce's book Kennels Scripture that admits, from

1211
01:02:56,199 --> 01:03:02,360
the evangelical perspective, the absolutely indispensable aspect of church tradition

1212
01:03:03,199 --> 01:03:07,079
in determining not just the canon, but the authenticity and

1213
01:03:07,239 --> 01:03:11,000
authorship of the various manuscript copies. This is so key

1214
01:03:11,079 --> 01:03:16,280
because so many Protestants when they hear this argument, they think, oh,

1215
01:03:16,280 --> 01:03:18,920
you're just saying that I need infamiable decisions to know

1216
01:03:18,960 --> 01:03:20,920
what the miibile is. No, no, no, it's not just

1217
01:03:20,960 --> 01:03:24,400
a question of normative authority about a binding canon. It's

1218
01:03:24,400 --> 01:03:29,119
also a question about the authenticity and authorship of disputed

1219
01:03:29,199 --> 01:03:35,719
texts versus pseudopographa and varying lists amongst the church fathers.

1220
01:03:36,400 --> 01:03:38,079
So here we have leemacdal This won't take a butt

1221
01:03:38,079 --> 01:03:41,960
a second. Here we have Lee McDonald listing the Old

1222
01:03:42,000 --> 01:03:44,400
Testament books in the Eastern Church in the fourth and

1223
01:03:44,440 --> 01:03:49,639
fifth century. And you'll notice there is some variation with Athanasius,

1224
01:03:49,800 --> 01:03:55,159
basically including elements of the Dudro canon. And Athanasius says

1225
01:03:55,159 --> 01:03:58,159
that the Dudo canon is for catech humans to read.

1226
01:03:58,480 --> 01:04:00,719
So even if we we don't have a problem in

1227
01:04:00,719 --> 01:04:03,280
the worth our church with the phrase doujuo canon, you say,

1228
01:04:04,119 --> 01:04:05,840
but it's not just a question of the Duro canon,

1229
01:04:05,880 --> 01:04:07,920
as we'll see, it's also a question of the authenticity

1230
01:04:07,920 --> 01:04:11,440
of the Book of Revelation, which Athanasius has a key

1231
01:04:11,519 --> 01:04:17,800
role in determining as canonical by convincing Rome. So the

1232
01:04:17,840 --> 01:04:21,320
East convinces the West of the canonicity of the Catholic

1233
01:04:21,320 --> 01:04:27,000
Epistles and Revelation. According to Lee McDonald, you'll notice that

1234
01:04:27,000 --> 01:04:32,079
Barrack is included in most of these lists. And by

1235
01:04:32,079 --> 01:04:36,559
the way, I think it's Melito's list that James White

1236
01:04:36,960 --> 01:04:40,239
tried to refer to in the trent Horn debate, and

1237
01:04:40,639 --> 01:04:45,719
Sam Schimun pointed out that James White was dishonest and

1238
01:04:45,800 --> 01:04:50,320
wrong about Malito's list. It's also I'm pretty sure it's Malito.

1239
01:04:50,440 --> 01:04:53,639
It's either the Vincentian or Milito's Alito's kN I'm not sure,

1240
01:04:53,639 --> 01:04:56,039
but there's a video that Shimune has on that. By

1241
01:04:56,079 --> 01:05:02,239
the way, Epiphanius, you'll notice that it's pretty much as

1242
01:05:02,320 --> 01:05:10,480
dress Barrack as well. You'll notice that Ruth is in

1243
01:05:10,639 --> 01:05:16,559
judges are sometimes also not included, So for example, some

1244
01:05:16,639 --> 01:05:22,159
of these lists will have Ruth, some of these lists won't,

1245
01:05:22,400 --> 01:05:26,719
so you can see they're quite different in their inclusion

1246
01:05:26,760 --> 01:05:30,440
and exclusion. Now, yes, I admit that these aren't the

1247
01:05:30,480 --> 01:05:33,800
most essential verses you see, but none of that really

1248
01:05:34,119 --> 01:05:36,440
are books. But none of that matters in regard to

1249
01:05:36,480 --> 01:05:41,079
the Protestant idea of the final, completed, fixed Word of

1250
01:05:41,079 --> 01:05:45,719
God as the only soul authority or final authority for

1251
01:05:45,800 --> 01:05:49,719
the church. You see, if we come over here to

1252
01:05:51,280 --> 01:05:58,119
other lists. Here we have pseudo crystalistom pseudocrystalism, including Sirih

1253
01:06:00,199 --> 01:06:03,320
Tobit over here included. And some of these are just ancient,

1254
01:06:03,679 --> 01:06:06,119
varying ancient lists. Okay, we're gonna We're gonna do several

1255
01:06:06,159 --> 01:06:09,280
of these. This is still Old Testament. If we come

1256
01:06:09,280 --> 01:06:12,000
over here to Hillary, this is the book of the

1257
01:06:12,039 --> 01:06:14,159
Old Testament in the Western Church in the fourth of

1258
01:06:14,199 --> 01:06:20,400
fifth century. So Hillary, one of his u textual lists

1259
01:06:20,480 --> 01:06:24,639
has also Tobit first and second asdres and the Epistle

1260
01:06:24,639 --> 01:06:29,599
of Jeremiah. If you come over to Jerome, Jerme is

1261
01:06:29,599 --> 01:06:33,840
the only church father that lists explicitly the Protestant canon

1262
01:06:36,960 --> 01:06:42,920
and then the next list. There's some other This is

1263
01:06:45,000 --> 01:06:48,960
Augustine's list of the Old Testament cannon. It of course

1264
01:06:49,000 --> 01:06:52,000
includes the Duro cannon. And why did Augustine have this list? Well,

1265
01:06:52,559 --> 01:06:57,199
Augustine agreed with Pope Damas's list at the Council of Rome.

1266
01:06:57,679 --> 01:07:02,559
Council of Rome is a regional council around mid you know,

1267
01:07:02,559 --> 01:07:07,039
mid three hundreds, late three hundreds, and it's maybe around

1268
01:07:07,039 --> 01:07:08,880
four hundred. I for get the exact day, but it's

1269
01:07:08,960 --> 01:07:12,840
very similar to kind of what you see in the

1270
01:07:12,880 --> 01:07:17,679
Apostolic Canons, except the Apostolic Canons also have a differing list,

1271
01:07:17,679 --> 01:07:20,960
as we'll see in a second. Here's Augustine's list, and

1272
01:07:21,000 --> 01:07:22,960
then next to it is the Council of Rome that

1273
01:07:23,000 --> 01:07:25,039
we're talking about, which is very important in the West.

1274
01:07:25,960 --> 01:07:29,719
There's another Council of Hippo that includes the duoconomical books,

1275
01:07:29,760 --> 01:07:33,039
and then the Codex about Ecanus includes the decononical texts.

1276
01:07:34,440 --> 01:07:40,400
Codex Sinidicus has Wisdom cyric as well. Codex Alexandrinas also

1277
01:07:40,440 --> 01:07:47,960
includes duoconomical texts. So let's look at New Testament books.

1278
01:07:49,079 --> 01:07:57,159
Eusebius's list. It's unclear if Eusebius included Book of Revelation,

1279
01:07:59,280 --> 01:08:12,400
and it includes the Diddiky and the Epistle Barnabas. Clement's

1280
01:08:12,480 --> 01:08:18,720
list includes texts that no one else included as canonical,

1281
01:08:19,079 --> 01:08:23,279
such as Pistol Barnabas, Shepherd of Hermas, Acts of Paul,

1282
01:08:23,359 --> 01:08:27,439
revelation of Peter Cyril of Jerusalem, who I mentioned to

1283
01:08:27,680 --> 01:08:30,319
that guy does not include the Book of Revelation. So

1284
01:08:30,359 --> 01:08:33,880
this is this does not afford Protestants any evidence or help.

1285
01:08:34,479 --> 01:08:36,640
And you can see it right there. He has the

1286
01:08:37,000 --> 01:08:42,079
correct New Testament, but he does not include the Book

1287
01:08:42,079 --> 01:08:50,560
of Revelation. We have Athanasius's New Testament canon and it

1288
01:08:50,680 --> 01:08:56,600
is the full accurate New Testament canon that again he

1289
01:08:56,600 --> 01:08:59,199
helps convince Rome to accept. When it comes to the

1290
01:08:59,239 --> 01:09:01,520
Book of Revelation, and I think the Book of Hebrews

1291
01:09:01,520 --> 01:09:07,239
and the Catholic Epistles, there is the Momson list, and

1292
01:09:07,479 --> 01:09:20,039
it looks pretty acrobat doesn't have the Book of James Epiphanius.

1293
01:09:21,439 --> 01:09:24,840
I don't know why Epiphanius would include Wisdom of Syric,

1294
01:09:26,439 --> 01:09:28,800
Wisdom and Syric in the New Testament. That's pretty odd.

1295
01:09:29,560 --> 01:09:37,880
But it looks like the Apostolic Canons, which is what

1296
01:09:37,920 --> 01:09:41,920
we're looking at right here. They do not have the

1297
01:09:41,960 --> 01:09:49,479
Book of Hebrews or the Book of Revelation. But the

1298
01:09:49,520 --> 01:09:53,039
Apostolic Canons, which had a wider acceptance, especially in the East,

1299
01:09:53,520 --> 01:09:57,039
did include the dudocononical text. And that's why it even

1300
01:09:57,079 --> 01:10:01,640
trump's an individual church father's opinion. But it's not even

1301
01:10:01,760 --> 01:10:07,720
final because we don't include the Letters of Clement, and

1302
01:10:07,880 --> 01:10:10,640
we do not include and it does not include the

1303
01:10:10,640 --> 01:10:14,840
Book of Revelation. So you understand, we're walking through the

1304
01:10:14,880 --> 01:10:21,000
actual historical process of the lists and how much variation

1305
01:10:21,079 --> 01:10:23,640
of differentiation there is. Now, there's not a whole lot

1306
01:10:23,680 --> 01:10:28,039
of differentiation or variation on the Gospels. Okay, it's almost

1307
01:10:28,079 --> 01:10:35,880
always the Catholic epistles, Pauline epistles to a degree. And

1308
01:10:37,199 --> 01:10:40,279
I mean if paul wrote Hebrews, I'm saying in the

1309
01:10:40,279 --> 01:10:44,399
Book of Revelation, and the inclusion of books that no

1310
01:10:44,479 --> 01:10:48,439
one ends up really accepting, like clement and so forth.

1311
01:10:49,000 --> 01:10:54,840
The Apostolic canons include two Clementine letters in the Epistolic

1312
01:10:54,920 --> 01:10:58,920
constitutions apparently, which is odd. Gregor of Nazian Zeus's list

1313
01:10:59,159 --> 01:11:05,800
does not include Revelation or Hebrews, and the African canons

1314
01:11:05,840 --> 01:11:08,760
include the Acts of the Martyrs, which I don't think

1315
01:11:08,760 --> 01:11:12,479
anybody includes. So then you have again Canon eighty five

1316
01:11:12,520 --> 01:11:19,119
over here. Now, when Trollo meets, Trollo says, we affirm

1317
01:11:19,840 --> 01:11:25,840
the canons of the previous councils, and we affirm explicitly

1318
01:11:26,800 --> 01:11:32,800
the Carthaginian list of the canon. The Carthaginian list, going

1319
01:11:32,840 --> 01:11:40,920
from memory is pretty much the Council of Rome list.

1320
01:11:42,720 --> 01:11:47,800
So essentially, by the time of Trollo and Trollo is

1321
01:11:47,840 --> 01:11:52,720
affirmed by the Seventh Ecumenical Council. You have an affirmation

1322
01:11:52,920 --> 01:11:58,039
of what is pretty much the identical canon to the

1323
01:11:58,039 --> 01:12:03,159
West in terms of the Council of Rome and Augustine

1324
01:12:03,199 --> 01:12:06,880
and Pope Demasis. So there's not a whole lot of differentiation.

1325
01:12:08,199 --> 01:12:13,880
I think some people, even John Damascus for example, still

1326
01:12:14,479 --> 01:12:18,720
includes in his canon list Clement the Letters of Clement.

1327
01:12:19,239 --> 01:12:22,039
So the Orthodox view, because we don't believe in soul scriptura,

1328
01:12:22,560 --> 01:12:26,279
it's not as rigid as this Protestant idea of you

1329
01:12:26,359 --> 01:12:29,399
have to have this like completely you know, walled off

1330
01:12:29,920 --> 01:12:32,760
cannon that is not in any way sort of flexible.

1331
01:12:32,800 --> 01:12:35,199
And the Orthodox shirts there's more flexibility here because we're

1332
01:12:35,199 --> 01:12:39,720
not proponents of soul scriptura, so we don't believe that

1333
01:12:40,000 --> 01:12:42,600
all these they're all heretics. They didn't get the infallible

1334
01:12:42,640 --> 01:12:46,159
word of God. Right. Well, I've noticed Protestants take Revelation

1335
01:12:46,279 --> 01:12:48,159
twenty two and they say, if you take away from

1336
01:12:48,159 --> 01:12:49,600
the Word of God, or if you had to it,

1337
01:12:49,680 --> 01:12:52,159
you'd a part of the like of fire. Oh so

1338
01:12:52,239 --> 01:12:53,800
all the church fathers who were debating and trying to

1339
01:12:53,800 --> 01:12:54,880
figure out the canon, I guess they're all on the

1340
01:12:54,920 --> 01:12:57,119
lake of fire unless they got the canon right, it's

1341
01:12:57,119 --> 01:12:59,600
just silly and it's totally divorced from history. Last thing

1342
01:12:59,600 --> 01:13:04,119
I'll say on this is the one of the key

1343
01:13:04,159 --> 01:13:06,119
things that surprised me. I don't remember if it was.

1344
01:13:06,279 --> 01:13:09,359
I think it was in the FF. Bruce book, but

1345
01:13:09,399 --> 01:13:15,600
I'm going from memory, is the admission that liturgy played

1346
01:13:15,640 --> 01:13:18,880
a really important role in the formation of the Biblical canon.

1347
01:13:19,880 --> 01:13:23,840
And a lot of Protestants have never heard that. When

1348
01:13:23,840 --> 01:13:27,239
I was Protestant and debating and studying these issues, I'd

1349
01:13:27,239 --> 01:13:30,479
never heard this that was new what liturgy. Yes, In fact,

1350
01:13:30,560 --> 01:13:35,199
the daily readings or electionaries in the ancient sees and

1351
01:13:35,319 --> 01:13:40,279
churches had a very important role in figuring out the

1352
01:13:40,319 --> 01:13:44,640
tradition of the Church in regard to authenticity and authorship

1353
01:13:44,800 --> 01:13:48,479
of many of these texts. For example, if an ancient

1354
01:13:48,520 --> 01:13:53,079
apostolic see say Rome, say Jerusalem, if they had cited

1355
01:13:53,119 --> 01:13:56,720
a text, or I had been if a text had been read,

1356
01:13:57,279 --> 01:14:00,000
and it went back as far as anyone could remember,

1357
01:14:00,640 --> 01:14:03,800
and as far as other church fathers had given witness

1358
01:14:03,840 --> 01:14:08,119
to say you're an as say Clement, say Ignatius, say

1359
01:14:08,119 --> 01:14:11,920
they cited a text. Those were good pieces of evidence

1360
01:14:12,000 --> 01:14:18,840
that that's probably authentic. But it's also the liturgical cycle

1361
01:14:18,920 --> 01:14:23,720
and the liturgical readings that help the church determine from

1362
01:14:23,760 --> 01:14:29,159
the third, fourth, fifth, sixth, seventh centuries what the normative

1363
01:14:29,520 --> 01:14:33,479
canon would be. And if you understand that, and that's

1364
01:14:33,520 --> 01:14:35,359
why I brought them out the example of that guy

1365
01:14:35,520 --> 01:14:39,119
and the authorship, it's not just episodic authorship. There's other

1366
01:14:39,279 --> 01:14:42,640
things that go into it, like liturgy that devastates the

1367
01:14:42,680 --> 01:14:55,399
Protestant solid criture position snack. What's up man, you gotta

1368
01:14:55,439 --> 01:14:55,960
unused neck?

1369
01:14:58,079 --> 01:15:00,399
Speaker 5: Oh yeah, I just wanted to you had.

1370
01:15:00,960 --> 01:15:06,039
Speaker 10: This is one important thing that the president rejects the canon, namely,

1371
01:15:06,319 --> 01:15:09,479
ninety percent of the time the rejects the longer canon

1372
01:15:10,079 --> 01:15:14,359
because they disagree with prayer to the Saints, and they

1373
01:15:14,640 --> 01:15:20,800
will usually target Marcabas or top it when they appeal

1374
01:15:21,199 --> 01:15:25,079
to Jerome, to a gregory of Nazianses, they appeal to

1375
01:15:25,319 --> 01:15:28,840
the authority of people who did not believe it was

1376
01:15:28,880 --> 01:15:32,960
part of the primary canon granted, but also prayers to

1377
01:15:33,000 --> 01:15:37,159
the Saint Gregory of Naziensis. Actually he wrote an entire

1378
01:15:37,239 --> 01:15:45,520
panegeric prayers and really a logious work specifically for the Maccabase.

1379
01:15:46,920 --> 01:15:49,640
So they will in order to defend their position, they

1380
01:15:49,640 --> 01:15:52,159
will appeal to authorities that reject their position.

1381
01:15:52,720 --> 01:15:57,159
Speaker 1: Yeah, like Jerome talking about Relex, Jerome talking about per

1382
01:15:57,199 --> 01:16:02,439
perpetual virginity, Mary against Alvidio's against Gelantius. But who cares

1383
01:16:02,560 --> 01:16:06,399
about all those heresies Jerome had the Protestant Jewish Old Testament.

1384
01:16:06,840 --> 01:16:11,920
Another point Snack is that oftentimes the Protestants are also

1385
01:16:12,520 --> 01:16:17,840
defaulting to the Judaic position that Jews somehow determine the

1386
01:16:17,960 --> 01:16:18,920
canon for the church.

1387
01:16:22,680 --> 01:16:24,640
Speaker 5: Yeah, of course, and that that doesn't work.

1388
01:16:24,720 --> 01:16:29,319
Speaker 10: And there even was a debate between Jerome and Augustine

1389
01:16:29,319 --> 01:16:32,399
on whether we should go to the septu engine specifically

1390
01:16:32,560 --> 01:16:35,439
or because the things that went through the Jews. Actually

1391
01:16:35,479 --> 01:16:38,479
Augustine was on the site of using the septu agent.

1392
01:16:38,680 --> 01:16:41,840
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, I think that's right. Yeah, because Jerome was

1393
01:16:41,880 --> 01:16:45,800
convinced that the Hebrew tax and Hebrew Revelation should be

1394
01:16:46,079 --> 01:16:50,880
what we look to and should be, you know, the

1395
01:16:50,880 --> 01:16:54,960
the primary source for Old Testament, and he Jrome. Part

1396
01:16:55,000 --> 01:16:56,600
of the reason Jerome believed that is because he went

1397
01:16:56,640 --> 01:16:59,079
and learned Hebrew under rabbis. So he went studied under

1398
01:16:59,079 --> 01:17:04,039
the Jews famously, and he became convinced of their canonical approach.

1399
01:17:04,560 --> 01:17:09,079
While the problem is that in the Western Church and Protestants, ironically,

1400
01:17:09,720 --> 01:17:13,079
they don't like especially if you're like a reform Protestant,

1401
01:17:13,159 --> 01:17:18,560
you're supposed to default to the synodyal mindset. In the West,

1402
01:17:19,079 --> 01:17:24,319
the sonodal mindset did not go with the individual ideas

1403
01:17:24,319 --> 01:17:29,279
of Jerome. The West went with Damasis, the African canon,

1404
01:17:29,399 --> 01:17:34,399
the Carthaginian canon, the Rome, the canon of Rome, and

1405
01:17:34,439 --> 01:17:38,800
not the ideas of an individual like Saint Jerome. And

1406
01:17:38,840 --> 01:17:44,680
so ironically Protestants default to picking and choosing their pet dude,

1407
01:17:45,159 --> 01:17:49,840
when the very God, the very principles of Protestantism like sonodal,

1408
01:17:50,479 --> 01:17:53,760
you know, the Presbyterian Church government for those that don't

1409
01:17:53,800 --> 01:17:59,800
know reform people, their church governance is snodal. And yet

1410
01:17:59,800 --> 01:18:01,960
here we are, we're supposed to follow their own.

1411
01:18:03,640 --> 01:18:05,640
Speaker 2: M Yeah.

1412
01:18:05,640 --> 01:18:08,680
Speaker 10: And in the East, and that's that's part of the

1413
01:18:08,760 --> 01:18:12,960
creator issue with Jerome is that he went to the East,

1414
01:18:12,960 --> 01:18:16,279
he studied on a rabbis, and he did not necessarily

1415
01:18:16,319 --> 01:18:20,640
agree or was agreeable with the local churches. It wasn't

1416
01:18:20,920 --> 01:18:24,159
so for example, he will have work saying, of course

1417
01:18:24,159 --> 01:18:27,800
he believes in relics, but the local church there that

1418
01:18:27,920 --> 01:18:33,159
he doubts that that they are real also critiques of

1419
01:18:33,600 --> 01:18:41,520
some forms of monasticism. He left pretty bad, pretty bad mark,

1420
01:18:41,600 --> 01:18:45,960
you know. Also in terms of the militian controversy that

1421
01:18:46,039 --> 01:18:49,520
he would he would he would go back to to

1422
01:18:49,680 --> 01:18:51,800
Rome's position to know, to sort it out.

1423
01:18:52,199 --> 01:18:57,640
Speaker 5: So saying that his view was authoritative in the East

1424
01:18:58,079 --> 01:19:00,199
is also a stretch. And if you read if you

1425
01:19:00,239 --> 01:19:01,199
read for example.

1426
01:19:00,920 --> 01:19:05,439
Speaker 10: Seraphim Rosy, he says that the Russians for example, mentioned

1427
01:19:05,479 --> 01:19:11,239
him as blessed similarly to to Augustine, because there was

1428
01:19:11,279 --> 01:19:17,239
some controversy tied to him. If you read fortresssle Litter accounts,

1429
01:19:17,000 --> 01:19:22,239
it talks about someone who's called I think Amram, who

1430
01:19:22,279 --> 01:19:26,319
translated the Bible in a in a new way that

1431
01:19:26,479 --> 01:19:30,079
was controversial, and some other doctrinal issues.

1432
01:19:30,119 --> 01:19:33,960
Speaker 5: And there's a debate whether it's Jerome or.

1433
01:19:33,680 --> 01:19:38,159
Speaker 10: More more precisely the memory he left in the in

1434
01:19:38,279 --> 01:19:38,560
the East.

1435
01:19:39,439 --> 01:19:40,479
Speaker 5: But yeah, never mind.

1436
01:19:40,640 --> 01:19:45,560
Speaker 10: And when it comes to the canon, I would agree

1437
01:19:45,640 --> 01:19:49,560
that I think prestants are used to debating the Catholic position,

1438
01:19:49,600 --> 01:19:54,199
which is really rigid, some latinises of it as well

1439
01:19:54,399 --> 01:19:55,319
in the Orthodox Church.

1440
01:19:55,399 --> 01:19:56,920
Speaker 2: But if if you.

1441
01:19:58,520 --> 01:20:02,279
Speaker 10: I would agree that you cannot takes a Richard Longkanan

1442
01:20:02,359 --> 01:20:07,479
position with the losing of shoefezs in the historical inquiry.

1443
01:20:08,079 --> 01:20:13,159
But having the jutorycaninic view is perfectly fine, and you

1444
01:20:13,199 --> 01:20:16,279
can reconciliate it pretty easily.

1445
01:20:16,399 --> 01:20:20,319
Speaker 1: I'd say, yeah, agreed. For those that are interested. I'm

1446
01:20:20,319 --> 01:20:23,239
trying to scroll back to fifteen years ago. I wrote

1447
01:20:23,239 --> 01:20:26,960
two articles responding to a lot of the very common

1448
01:20:27,039 --> 01:20:33,199
Protestant claims about the Septuagint and the Jewish the Protomasoretic Text.

1449
01:20:34,159 --> 01:20:36,880
And I took a couple of different Protestants like doctor

1450
01:20:36,880 --> 01:20:39,880
Ian Paisley and some other people I don't remember who's

1451
01:20:39,920 --> 01:20:44,319
in it, and I just went to Protestant scholars to

1452
01:20:45,319 --> 01:20:50,560
point out all the places where our position is essentially admitted.

1453
01:20:51,000 --> 01:20:54,159
So here's the first one right here. It's called Reputation

1454
01:20:54,199 --> 01:20:57,000
of the Protestant Canon of Scripture. And I go through.

1455
01:20:57,960 --> 01:21:01,159
I mentioned McDonald, I cite J and D. F. Bruce,

1456
01:21:01,359 --> 01:21:04,840
I cite Falsest Bible Dictionary, just a lot of very normal,

1457
01:21:05,279 --> 01:21:13,279
well known Protestant Nelson New Christian Dictionary, even stuff that

1458
01:21:13,319 --> 01:21:15,840
you've heard me talking about more recently, like the Canons

1459
01:21:15,840 --> 01:21:21,439
of Laodicea. None of those things afford Protestants any proof

1460
01:21:21,479 --> 01:21:24,680
for evidence. And in fact, this goes even so far

1461
01:21:24,720 --> 01:21:33,319
into talking about that the let's see, I even go

1462
01:21:33,399 --> 01:21:36,840
into the fact that, let me quote New Testaments called

1463
01:21:37,640 --> 01:21:40,720
Craig Blomberg. He says, the conviction that the Apostles or

1464
01:21:40,720 --> 01:21:43,079
the associated apostles pinned the Four Gospels in the first

1465
01:21:43,079 --> 01:21:45,840
century led Christians throughout the Church to believe that they

1466
01:21:45,920 --> 01:21:49,960
recorded historically reliable as well as theologically authoritative material. Thus

1467
01:21:50,119 --> 01:21:55,319
tradition is not mutually exclusive because you're not told who

1468
01:21:55,359 --> 01:21:59,640
those are. The authorship is part of the belief of

1469
01:21:59,680 --> 01:22:03,199
the the Christians in later centuries. You see, because there's

1470
01:22:03,239 --> 01:22:05,880
nothing that tells you about Matthew that Matthew wrote it,

1471
01:22:08,800 --> 01:22:10,680
or that it's the disciple of Jesus. But I go

1472
01:22:10,760 --> 01:22:13,439
through a Papius, I go through Irenaeus, I go through

1473
01:22:13,479 --> 01:22:17,960
a bunch of historical texts as well, and in responding

1474
01:22:18,000 --> 01:22:20,680
to common Protestant objections, but there was something specific I

1475
01:22:20,720 --> 01:22:22,600
was looking for regard to the Alexa. Here you go.

1476
01:22:23,880 --> 01:22:30,119
Ian Paisley claims, for example, that there's not that the

1477
01:22:30,159 --> 01:22:35,840
Apocrypha is not in the septuagent, and that's false. If

1478
01:22:35,880 --> 01:22:38,279
you look this up. The writings that are added in

1479
01:22:38,319 --> 01:22:42,800
the subtuagent under apocrypha are first and Second Esdras, Tobit Judith,

1480
01:22:43,439 --> 01:22:48,239
the additions to Esther Wisdom, Ecclesiasticus Barrick, song of There's

1481
01:22:48,319 --> 01:22:52,960
Three Children, Susanna Bell, and the Dragon. The Subtuagent incorporates

1482
01:22:53,000 --> 01:22:56,640
all of these, with the exception of Second Esdras. Even F. F.

1483
01:22:56,680 --> 01:22:59,720
Bruce agrees with all this. So what is the point

1484
01:22:59,720 --> 01:23:03,600
of that The majority of the New Testament citations of

1485
01:23:03,640 --> 01:23:06,199
the Old Testament texts are from the Subtuasion. So the

1486
01:23:06,279 --> 01:23:12,279
Apostles almost entirely exclusively are using the subtusin so they're

1487
01:23:12,399 --> 01:23:17,159
using a Bible that has the deutero canonical text. That's

1488
01:23:17,279 --> 01:23:21,760
why the New Testament in many many places alludes to

1489
01:23:21,960 --> 01:23:27,439
and even cites explicitly douter canonical texts and stories. In

1490
01:23:27,479 --> 01:23:31,359
this very article, I list about six of them. Hebrews

1491
01:23:31,399 --> 01:23:33,520
eleven thirty five refers to the women and children who

1492
01:23:33,600 --> 01:23:36,399
refuse to be delivered from death that they might receive

1493
01:23:36,479 --> 01:23:40,880
a better resurrection than's Macabe's. Jesus' statement about the eye

1494
01:23:40,920 --> 01:23:43,439
making the whole body dark is a reference to Ecclesiasticas

1495
01:23:43,479 --> 01:23:47,920
fourteen eight through eleven. Ecclesiasticus eleven thirty one parallels to

1496
01:23:48,000 --> 01:23:51,880
Second John ten. Jesus statement about the excuse me Wisdom

1497
01:23:51,960 --> 01:23:55,000
twelve and thirteen is almost exactly parallel to Romans one.

1498
01:23:55,239 --> 01:23:57,600
If you've read Wisdom, you know that. Wait a minute,

1499
01:23:57,600 --> 01:24:01,680
this sounds like Paul and Romans one. Well, yeah, Paul

1500
01:24:01,760 --> 01:24:03,800
read the douter canonical text and sites from it, so

1501
01:24:03,840 --> 01:24:07,439
of course he was familiar with Wisdom. Wisdom too, is

1502
01:24:07,479 --> 01:24:11,319
a lengthy prophecy of Christ. Why would you want to

1503
01:24:11,319 --> 01:24:16,920
throw out books that are further prophetic witnesses to Christ.

1504
01:24:19,720 --> 01:24:21,279
Now I'm not saying that just because it's a sight

1505
01:24:21,439 --> 01:24:24,880
or alluded to this necessary canonical but it's important to

1506
01:24:25,119 --> 01:24:30,800
refuting the claims of the Protestants that you know, this

1507
01:24:30,960 --> 01:24:33,760
is not the New Testament doesn't cite any of these things.

1508
01:24:33,800 --> 01:24:35,359
It does cite them. And then when you point that

1509
01:24:35,359 --> 01:24:37,039
out those out, well just be inside. It doesn't mean

1510
01:24:37,079 --> 01:24:39,560
it's part of the canon. Well, there's not a reliable

1511
01:24:39,680 --> 01:24:43,520
principle in Protestantism as to know what the canon is

1512
01:24:43,680 --> 01:24:49,680
outside of just defaulting to rabbinic temutic nonsense. So there's

1513
01:24:49,720 --> 01:24:52,199
part one of this if you want to read that one.

1514
01:24:52,239 --> 01:24:57,279
And then I went through and did also a sequel

1515
01:24:57,520 --> 01:24:59,960
Part two and then we'll open it up. I Paul,

1516
01:25:00,239 --> 01:25:06,039
just for this long winded thing here. Part two also

1517
01:25:06,119 --> 01:25:09,039
goes into additional things that I didn't get into about

1518
01:25:09,319 --> 01:25:24,279
oral tradition apostolic authorship. So here's part two, all right.

1519
01:25:24,840 --> 01:25:27,960
Next up, by the way, feel free, Father de can snack.

1520
01:25:28,000 --> 01:25:31,359
Anybody wants to, they can. They can chime in. We

1521
01:25:31,399 --> 01:25:39,319
got a huge Xander. What's up, man, Buffy the vampire

1522
01:25:39,319 --> 01:25:58,479
slayer in the house, got it? Unmute, dude, what's up?

1523
01:25:59,920 --> 01:26:00,319
Speaker 4: Yeah?

1524
01:26:00,840 --> 01:26:02,199
Speaker 2: I have two questions.

1525
01:26:02,199 --> 01:26:05,960
Speaker 3: Well for that, I just wanted to say that I

1526
01:26:06,000 --> 01:26:07,880
went to my first time to.

1527
01:26:07,920 --> 01:26:11,920
Speaker 2: Antiochian Church Justice too. Yeah. It was.

1528
01:26:12,039 --> 01:26:16,000
Speaker 3: It was a beautiful experience, and I wish and I

1529
01:26:16,039 --> 01:26:17,000
hope I can go back.

1530
01:26:17,680 --> 01:26:20,840
Speaker 1: Yeah, man, I wish you well on your journey. Keep

1531
01:26:21,359 --> 01:26:24,680
keep going and uh, you know, look into you know,

1532
01:26:24,800 --> 01:26:26,920
being catechized. If you're interested, you continue.

1533
01:26:28,439 --> 01:26:31,560
Speaker 2: Yeah, thank you. It was. It was actually really beautiful.

1534
01:26:32,840 --> 01:26:33,159
It was.

1535
01:26:33,239 --> 01:26:35,479
Speaker 3: It was much more biblical than the churches I've been

1536
01:26:35,520 --> 01:26:38,119
in the past, to be honest, like it was.

1537
01:26:39,199 --> 01:26:41,720
Speaker 1: Okay, have two questions.

1538
01:26:42,479 --> 01:26:43,960
Speaker 2: Okay, I have two questions here.

1539
01:26:44,279 --> 01:26:47,720
Speaker 3: The first one is about the controversy between the Angel

1540
01:26:47,760 --> 01:26:49,960
of the Lord and the and the Catholic.

1541
01:26:50,000 --> 01:26:51,720
Speaker 1: You read my mind because I got you read my

1542
01:26:51,720 --> 01:26:54,960
mind because I got it pulled up perfect. Oh yeah,

1543
01:26:54,960 --> 01:26:56,600
I just pulled up. I just pulled that up. So

1544
01:26:56,640 --> 01:26:57,239
that's exactly.

1545
01:26:57,840 --> 01:26:59,119
Speaker 5: This was a crazy one.

1546
01:27:00,600 --> 01:27:03,039
Speaker 1: Go ahead, this is exactly you're at. This is where

1547
01:27:03,079 --> 01:27:04,279
I was going to go. So go ahead.

1548
01:27:05,319 --> 01:27:08,359
Speaker 3: Yeah, I have no idea, but I correct me if

1549
01:27:08,359 --> 01:27:10,600
I'm wrong. But it doesn't the Catholic Church like have

1550
01:27:10,760 --> 01:27:14,560
it as official doctrine that the Angel is Jesus.

1551
01:27:15,079 --> 01:27:18,680
Speaker 1: No, or am I no he doesn't? No? Oh wow,

1552
01:27:20,199 --> 01:27:23,199
no in fact, so so uh now I want to

1553
01:27:23,199 --> 01:27:26,159
talk a little bit about this, just because Shamoon was

1554
01:27:26,239 --> 01:27:31,920
messaging me about this question, and so we have to

1555
01:27:31,960 --> 01:27:33,880
be can you can you mute just for a second

1556
01:27:33,880 --> 01:27:36,319
because it's loud background. I promise I'll try to make

1557
01:27:36,359 --> 01:27:40,359
I'll try to make this quick. So Sam was messing

1558
01:27:40,359 --> 01:27:42,279
with me about this other night because he was like,

1559
01:27:42,439 --> 01:27:46,560
why is athanacious referring in some of these passages about

1560
01:27:46,600 --> 01:27:50,359
the Angel the Lord calling it an angel? The Orthodox

1561
01:27:50,399 --> 01:27:52,199
study bubble does the same thing in some of the

1562
01:27:52,199 --> 01:27:56,319
passages too, So first of all, it's not wrong to

1563
01:27:56,439 --> 01:28:02,760
point out that anytime the Lord Sabboth is present his hosts,

1564
01:28:02,800 --> 01:28:05,479
and his angels are also present with him. Okay, so

1565
01:28:05,560 --> 01:28:09,079
think back to Genesis, what is it sixteen, where there's

1566
01:28:09,119 --> 01:28:12,920
the meal with Abraham, and then the two angels with

1567
01:28:13,079 --> 01:28:17,119
the Lord right are walking away getting ready to go

1568
01:28:17,199 --> 01:28:24,880
destroy Sodom. Excuse me, Genesis eighteen. Excuse me. And so

1569
01:28:25,840 --> 01:28:30,079
we know in Genesis nineteen one that when the Angel

1570
01:28:30,119 --> 01:28:34,199
of the Lord was present, there were two created angels

1571
01:28:34,279 --> 01:28:38,479
also with him Genesis nineteen one, right, So it's explained

1572
01:28:39,119 --> 01:28:41,800
a little bit later what's going on there. But if

1573
01:28:41,840 --> 01:28:45,600
you look at say Ezekiel one to Ezekiel ten, the

1574
01:28:45,680 --> 01:28:50,680
same principle is there that this Lord of Hosts, this

1575
01:28:51,319 --> 01:28:54,880
Glory of God, this Son of God, this one like

1576
01:28:54,960 --> 01:29:00,960
the Son of God that's riding this angel chariot, the angels,

1577
01:29:01,359 --> 01:29:04,560
the Cherubim in that case, are there with him in

1578
01:29:04,640 --> 01:29:09,039
his presence. So when he appears to Ezekiel, he is

1579
01:29:09,079 --> 01:29:12,640
not without his angels. You see. This is why in

1580
01:29:12,720 --> 01:29:16,359
the theophony at in Exodus, when he's on the mountain

1581
01:29:16,399 --> 01:29:19,319
of Mount Sinai, Paul says in one place that the

1582
01:29:19,399 --> 01:29:23,239
law was given through angels, but in other places we

1583
01:29:23,319 --> 01:29:26,520
know that Jesus himself identifies himself as the one there

1584
01:29:27,359 --> 01:29:31,880
speaking face to face with Moses. Is this a contradiction, No,

1585
01:29:32,439 --> 01:29:37,439
the Israelites were afraid of a face to face confrontation

1586
01:29:37,640 --> 01:29:41,319
with Christ himself. They in the text say you, Moses,

1587
01:29:41,359 --> 01:29:43,479
go up there and talk to him. So Paul is

1588
01:29:43,520 --> 01:29:46,840
not contradicting. But the majority of the Israelites did not

1589
01:29:47,000 --> 01:29:52,920
want a direct face to face confrontation with Jesus. And

1590
01:29:53,000 --> 01:29:56,239
in two Corinthians three, Paul makes it very clear that

1591
01:29:56,279 --> 01:29:58,520
Moses went up on the mountain and saw Jesus face

1592
01:29:58,560 --> 01:30:01,319
to face because it's the glory of Christ, as he

1593
01:30:01,359 --> 01:30:04,520
says in that passage, that reflected onto the face of Moses.

1594
01:30:05,159 --> 01:30:06,960
So when Moses came back down from the mountain, the

1595
01:30:07,000 --> 01:30:10,439
Israelites couldn't look at Moses's face because he was deified.

1596
01:30:10,880 --> 01:30:14,079
The uncreated light was shining out of the face of Moses.

1597
01:30:14,720 --> 01:30:19,439
Paul calls this and said Grinthians three glorification. It's not

1598
01:30:19,600 --> 01:30:22,800
postponed to the Escaton like Roman Catholics think it's existing

1599
01:30:22,840 --> 01:30:26,359
in the in Moses. Moses was transfigured and deified there.

1600
01:30:27,920 --> 01:30:32,600
And Paul used the allegory that just as the Jews

1601
01:30:33,640 --> 01:30:35,359
did not want to go up on the mountain, and

1602
01:30:35,399 --> 01:30:37,880
their hearts were hardened, and they had to put a

1603
01:30:37,960 --> 01:30:42,199
veil over Moses's face. So likewise, as he says in Galatians,

1604
01:30:42,199 --> 01:30:45,800
the Jews would not directly interact face to face with God.

1605
01:30:45,840 --> 01:30:49,680
Moses was their representative. Paul is contrasting that situation to

1606
01:30:50,159 --> 01:30:55,079
our situation, where now it's not mediated by angels and

1607
01:30:55,199 --> 01:30:59,880
only directly to Moses. All Christians have the direct experience

1608
01:31:00,119 --> 01:31:04,479
potentiality like Moses had. That's the new thing of the

1609
01:31:04,520 --> 01:31:07,600
New Testament. That's Moses being the image of the New

1610
01:31:07,600 --> 01:31:12,039
Testament Christian face to face meal with God. How did

1611
01:31:12,079 --> 01:31:14,640
the elders of Israel go up on the mountain and

1612
01:31:14,680 --> 01:31:21,279
have a meal with Michael Gabriel, No, with the Lord.

1613
01:31:22,680 --> 01:31:27,479
So it's this is actually providentially amazing, because if you

1614
01:31:27,880 --> 01:31:31,000
guys recall in the last few months, when Uniates and

1615
01:31:31,079 --> 01:31:34,079
Roman Catholics and Thomas called in, I started shifting the

1616
01:31:34,119 --> 01:31:37,319
debate and the argumentation with them to just going to

1617
01:31:37,359 --> 01:31:40,920
the Theophanes and the dozens and dozens of examples in

1618
01:31:40,960 --> 01:31:44,560
the Old Testament and pointing out that their tonistic theology

1619
01:31:44,600 --> 01:31:51,319
and Roman cathy theology defaults typically almost always to not

1620
01:31:51,520 --> 01:31:53,880
admitting that the Angel of the Lord and the Theophanes

1621
01:31:53,960 --> 01:31:59,760
are uncreated or real because it goes against their divine

1622
01:32:00,000 --> 01:32:05,600
implicity dogma and their denial of God's ability for one

1623
01:32:05,680 --> 01:32:12,319
hypostasis to self limit kenosis Philippians two in time and space.

1624
01:32:13,079 --> 01:32:15,359
They just don't conceive of it. Now, how do I

1625
01:32:15,399 --> 01:32:17,399
know that? Well, guess what. Not only have I read

1626
01:32:17,439 --> 01:32:22,000
Aquinas on it, there's actually scholars who have helped us

1627
01:32:22,039 --> 01:32:31,720
do this. Let me refresh it right here. So if

1628
01:32:31,760 --> 01:32:35,000
you recall in the Muslim debates, we made quite a

1629
01:32:35,000 --> 01:32:42,039
bit of use of why is that crashing? I just

1630
01:32:42,119 --> 01:32:50,399
had it pulled up Benjamin Sommer's book Bodies of God. Okay,

1631
01:32:51,119 --> 01:32:59,359
and this helpful man here has contrasted Aquinas's view in

1632
01:32:59,359 --> 01:33:01,640
the Suma. Going to show the exact passages so that

1633
01:33:01,680 --> 01:33:05,560
you can see that Thomas Aquinas does not believe. Oh

1634
01:33:05,600 --> 01:33:13,079
my gosh, why is it taken down? So the past?

1635
01:33:13,479 --> 01:33:16,239
This paper is right here. I've been sharing it all

1636
01:33:16,279 --> 01:33:19,640
over Twitter. I don't know why it's not there. So

1637
01:33:19,720 --> 01:33:22,960
it's called Aquinas and Sohmer on God's Body. Let's try that.

1638
01:33:23,800 --> 01:33:27,479
And uh, this guy compares Aquinas's statement on the Angel

1639
01:33:27,479 --> 01:33:35,039
of the Lord with the Hebrew theophany model of Benjamin Sohmer. Now,

1640
01:33:35,119 --> 01:33:38,039
I'm not saying that Benjamin Sohmer is a Christian, he's

1641
01:33:38,079 --> 01:33:42,199
a Rabbinic Jewish commentator. But he's admitting he's great, just

1642
01:33:42,239 --> 01:33:44,079
like Siegel and all these other people with the two

1643
01:33:44,079 --> 01:33:48,760
Powers in Heaven and Schaeffer and Bojarren. Because modern Rabbinic

1644
01:33:48,800 --> 01:33:52,560
theology is admitting a lot of the Christian principles and arguments.

1645
01:33:52,720 --> 01:34:04,560
That's why it's useful. And the paper admits, why is this?

1646
01:34:04,800 --> 01:34:10,199
Why is this collapsed? I don't understand. Oh, maybe academia

1647
01:34:10,239 --> 01:34:13,600
do eedu is down? Okay, well I'll give you guys

1648
01:34:13,640 --> 01:34:17,399
the link, because I don't think this is going away.

1649
01:34:17,399 --> 01:34:21,359
It should be accessible later anyway. He cites in the

1650
01:34:21,439 --> 01:34:24,560
Suma of the Very Places where a Quinas says that

1651
01:34:25,560 --> 01:34:27,920
the Angel Lord has to be a vision or some

1652
01:34:28,039 --> 01:34:31,159
kind of created phenomenon because well, divine simplicity, it's not

1653
01:34:31,199 --> 01:34:37,600
possible for one hypostasis or for God, who is absolute simplicity, uh,

1654
01:34:37,640 --> 01:34:40,840
and who is a pure act to be in time

1655
01:34:40,880 --> 01:34:45,239
and space, changing spatial location, going over here, leaving and

1656
01:34:45,239 --> 01:34:50,760
doing this and that. Now, so see that this is

1657
01:34:50,760 --> 01:34:53,840
why it's nuanced, so affinacious can say at times that

1658
01:34:53,960 --> 01:34:56,159
perhaps he thinks that it's the Angel of the Lord

1659
01:34:56,239 --> 01:34:59,880
in the in the furnace with shadowick Meshack and of Beenago. Okay,

1660
01:34:59,880 --> 01:35:03,439
for they could be, but it also could be the

1661
01:35:03,479 --> 01:35:08,079
Son of God as well, because anytime that the Son

1662
01:35:08,119 --> 01:35:11,479
of God is present, also his Sabba oath his hosts

1663
01:35:11,520 --> 01:35:14,560
are also present with him, as Ezekiel shows. Now one

1664
01:35:14,640 --> 01:35:17,359
last point before I know I've been brambling a long time,

1665
01:35:17,399 --> 01:35:22,399
but I did also want to point out that in

1666
01:35:22,520 --> 01:35:26,039
Jimmy Aikin's article on this, he's actually making Muslim arguments.

1667
01:35:26,039 --> 01:35:28,079
Can you believe this? This is how bad the Roman

1668
01:35:28,119 --> 01:35:32,439
Catholic apologies are. So when Aiken is addressing this, he says,

1669
01:35:32,800 --> 01:35:35,000
it's true that the aims of the Lord often seems

1670
01:35:35,039 --> 01:35:37,760
to speak with the voice of the Lord, and this

1671
01:35:37,840 --> 01:35:40,319
has led some in Protestant circles. So Jimmy aikan is

1672
01:35:40,319 --> 01:35:43,880
not even aware that the traditional Eastern Patristics Exedjesus of

1673
01:35:43,880 --> 01:35:47,680
the Church fathers, like justin Martyr against Trifo. The Jew says, no,

1674
01:35:47,800 --> 01:35:52,520
this is Jesus. Jesus says, it's Jesus. We've lectured through

1675
01:35:52,680 --> 01:35:55,039
all of the theophonies in the Torah, all of them.

1676
01:35:55,159 --> 01:35:56,840
It took about three hours, and I think I missed

1677
01:35:56,840 --> 01:35:58,960
one Leviticus. You can go watch my video where we

1678
01:35:59,000 --> 01:36:02,359
go through all of them outside of the Torah into

1679
01:36:02,560 --> 01:36:05,840
the historical books. It says in Judges, Yahweh turned his

1680
01:36:05,920 --> 01:36:10,560
face to get in. Angels are not the face of Yahweh.

1681
01:36:10,800 --> 01:36:13,520
The face of Yahweh is identified in Ezekiel one to

1682
01:36:13,640 --> 01:36:17,479
ten as the guy that's on the chariot throne, one

1683
01:36:17,560 --> 01:36:19,720
like a son, a man who's also the glory of God,

1684
01:36:19,840 --> 01:36:23,119
the face of God, the voice of God. It's Jesus.

1685
01:36:24,479 --> 01:36:28,000
What does Jimmy Aikin say. Catholics have not gone for

1686
01:36:28,079 --> 01:36:32,800
this quote speculation, speculation. Have you ever heard me or

1687
01:36:32,880 --> 01:36:37,039
Sam Chamun debate Muslims and Jews. It's like the number

1688
01:36:37,039 --> 01:36:39,920
one way to prove our position. The Old Testament is

1689
01:36:39,920 --> 01:36:44,119
not Unitarian, but the Roman Catholics because they're not just theology,

1690
01:36:44,119 --> 01:36:46,560
because they're ignorance of all this stuff. Trent Horne, doubling

1691
01:36:46,560 --> 01:36:49,800
down the Old Testament teaches the Unitarian det he No,

1692
01:36:49,840 --> 01:36:53,600
it doesn't. Trent Horn says, the word triad is a

1693
01:36:53,600 --> 01:36:57,439
anti Trinitarian term. What your own Eastern Catholic Church uses

1694
01:36:57,439 --> 01:36:58,600
it for the Trinity. What are you talking about? You

1695
01:36:58,600 --> 01:37:00,880
don't even know that you never heard this? Do you

1696
01:37:00,920 --> 01:37:05,520
even go to your Eastern Catholic services. A significant problem

1697
01:37:05,600 --> 01:37:07,319
is the fact that the term angel is used to

1698
01:37:07,359 --> 01:37:10,439
describe this being, and the preincarnate crist is not an angel.

1699
01:37:10,840 --> 01:37:13,239
Jimmy Aikin doesn't know that the word angel is a

1700
01:37:13,319 --> 01:37:13,760
generic