WEBVTT 1 00:00:01.439 --> 00:00:06.360 It's Nightside with Dan Ray ONU BZY, Boston's News Radio. 2 00:00:07.040 --> 00:00:10.039 All right, welcome back everybody, as we are head into 3 00:00:10.119 --> 00:00:14.240 our nine o'clock hour, and tonight we're going to spend 4 00:00:14.240 --> 00:00:19.039 an hour talking with two sheriffs here in Massachusetts. We 5 00:00:19.120 --> 00:00:24.399 have only fourteen sheriffs in Massachusetts, and we have two 6 00:00:24.480 --> 00:00:28.160 of them with us tonight. Delighted to welcome Norfolk County 7 00:00:28.160 --> 00:00:32.280 Sheriff Patrick McDermott, Sheriff McDermott, welcome back to Nightside. How 8 00:00:32.280 --> 00:00:32.600 are you. 9 00:00:33.719 --> 00:00:35.759 I'm doing great, Dan, Thanks for having me on tonight, 10 00:00:35.799 --> 00:00:36.399 appreciate it. 11 00:00:36.520 --> 00:00:39.159 You're very welcome in joining us from the other side 12 00:00:39.159 --> 00:00:44.280 of Massachusetts, from the western side, from Berkshire County Sheriff 13 00:00:44.320 --> 00:00:47.520 Thomas Bowler, Sheriff Bowler, welcome to Nightside. 14 00:00:47.880 --> 00:00:50.520 Thanks Dan. Great, great to be on and thank you 15 00:00:50.560 --> 00:00:51.119 for having us. 16 00:00:51.560 --> 00:00:54.679 Have I got that name? McDermott's an easy one for 17 00:00:54.880 --> 00:00:55.079 you know? 18 00:00:55.119 --> 00:00:55.399 For me? 19 00:00:55.920 --> 00:00:57.799 Is it bowler? A bowler? Want to make sure that 20 00:00:57.840 --> 00:00:58.960 I did it correctly? 21 00:01:00.119 --> 00:01:01.000 It right with Bowler? 22 00:01:01.079 --> 00:01:04.760 Bowler? All right, all right, now you've been a sheriff 23 00:01:04.799 --> 00:01:08.519 out there for about fourteen fifteen years, as I understand it, right. 24 00:01:08.920 --> 00:01:10.400 Yes, it's twenty eleven. 25 00:01:10.560 --> 00:01:14.280 So you come from a law enforcement background. You worked 26 00:01:14.319 --> 00:01:15.840 as a police detective. 27 00:01:16.760 --> 00:01:19.519 Yep. I started my career as a police officer in 28 00:01:19.599 --> 00:01:23.680 nineteen eighty five, and I was signed to detective Brull 29 00:01:23.760 --> 00:01:25.719 in the latter part of eighty eight and eighty nine, 30 00:01:26.280 --> 00:01:30.799 and then ran for sheriff at the PD for twenty 31 00:01:30.799 --> 00:01:33.079 five years and ran for sheriff in twenty ten. 32 00:01:33.959 --> 00:01:40.760 All right, and Sheriff McDermott, you had a little bit 33 00:01:40.799 --> 00:01:43.959 of a political pedigree, I would say from what the 34 00:01:44.000 --> 00:01:46.519 research I've done, so both of you have come to 35 00:01:47.239 --> 00:01:49.840 a very important office, but sort of by a different path, 36 00:01:49.920 --> 00:01:51.719 correct Sheriff McDermott. 37 00:01:52.920 --> 00:01:55.439 Yeah, So I started right after law school. I was 38 00:01:55.920 --> 00:01:58.719 a prosecutor at the Suffer County District Attorney's Office at 39 00:01:58.719 --> 00:02:01.840 the Boston Municipal Court, and then became a city councilor 40 00:02:01.840 --> 00:02:05.319 in Quincy and then ran to Norfolk County Register of 41 00:02:05.319 --> 00:02:07.640 Probate and served for eighteen years running the probate and 42 00:02:07.719 --> 00:02:11.120 family court before the opportunity presented itself to run for 43 00:02:11.159 --> 00:02:13.719 sheriff in Norfolk County and I've served there now for 44 00:02:14.080 --> 00:02:17.960 in my fifth year as sheriff and going along with. 45 00:02:17.919 --> 00:02:22.080 Stride, and you're also the president of the Sheriff's Association 46 00:02:22.199 --> 00:02:23.280 here in Massachusetts. 47 00:02:23.319 --> 00:02:27.879 Correct, correct, Yeah, we get elected, we kind of share 48 00:02:27.879 --> 00:02:29.719 the position over a couple of years. It's forth to 49 00:02:29.840 --> 00:02:31.960 only fourteen of us, so it goes back and forth 50 00:02:32.000 --> 00:02:35.319 for a time. But the president serves two years as 51 00:02:35.319 --> 00:02:39.680 the leader of our fourteen sheriff's offices, advocating for the 52 00:02:39.680 --> 00:02:42.599 office of sheriff, whether it's at the legislature or out 53 00:02:42.599 --> 00:02:44.919 in the community or with our friends like yourself and 54 00:02:44.960 --> 00:02:45.439 the press. 55 00:02:45.560 --> 00:02:52.240 Okay, so let's let's talk again. You're in a county 56 00:02:52.280 --> 00:02:56.800 that is very much more of an urban county, urban 57 00:02:56.960 --> 00:03:02.319 and suburban county. Norfolk County. Sheriff Bowler is in a 58 00:03:02.520 --> 00:03:05.240 county that's I don't think it's fair to call it 59 00:03:05.360 --> 00:03:10.360 rural sheriff, but I certainly it's not a highly urban 60 00:03:10.800 --> 00:03:13.039 Berkshire County. How would you how would you want us 61 00:03:13.080 --> 00:03:14.199 to describe your county? 62 00:03:14.960 --> 00:03:18.759 Well, I'd say Berkshire County. If you really look at 63 00:03:18.800 --> 00:03:22.280 the state of Massachusetts, there's thirty towns and two cities 64 00:03:22.319 --> 00:03:26.280 in Berkshire County, and going north to south from we 65 00:03:26.759 --> 00:03:31.000 cover from from the Vermont line to the Connecticut line. 66 00:03:31.120 --> 00:03:34.199 It's a good of the state, yes, but it was 67 00:03:34.240 --> 00:03:36.639 only we only have a population about one hundred and 68 00:03:36.639 --> 00:03:39.439 forty three to one hundred and forty five thousand here 69 00:03:39.439 --> 00:03:40.319 in Berkshire. 70 00:03:39.960 --> 00:03:44.719 County, Okay, and Sheriff McDermott, I'm guessing that your population 71 00:03:44.919 --> 00:03:45.759 is a multiple of that. 72 00:03:47.439 --> 00:03:50.520 So yeah, Norfolk County kind of surrounds, you know where 73 00:03:50.520 --> 00:03:54.560 we're abutted by Worcester County, Middlesex County, and Suffolk County 74 00:03:54.680 --> 00:03:57.719 to the north and east I guess of US or west, 75 00:03:57.759 --> 00:03:59.840 and then to the south of US is Plymouth County 76 00:04:00.080 --> 00:04:01.919 well as Bristol County, so we're kind of locked in 77 00:04:01.960 --> 00:04:05.280 the middle. But Norfolk County is considered kind of a 78 00:04:05.319 --> 00:04:08.240 medium sized county in Massachusetts. We have about seven hundred 79 00:04:08.240 --> 00:04:12.800 and sixty thousand residents in this county, so it's definitely different. 80 00:04:12.840 --> 00:04:15.960 So that's good size county, that's sure. Okay. So first 81 00:04:16.040 --> 00:04:22.480 question is what are the are the commonalities that and 82 00:04:22.560 --> 00:04:24.639 both of you can answer this in any order that 83 00:04:24.720 --> 00:04:27.399 you like. What are the commonalities do you think that 84 00:04:27.560 --> 00:04:30.759 each of your counties are dealing with in terms of 85 00:04:31.160 --> 00:04:35.680 prison population, crime, you know, problems at the top of 86 00:04:35.720 --> 00:04:38.360 the list that each of you are dealing with again, 87 00:04:38.680 --> 00:04:48.240 different circumstances geographically, perhaps different circumstances, different situations demographically, but 88 00:04:48.399 --> 00:04:51.240 what are the commonalities? Is it all? Is it always 89 00:04:51.319 --> 00:04:53.120 going to be drugs that's going to be the driving 90 00:04:53.160 --> 00:04:54.319 force for your clientele? 91 00:04:56.199 --> 00:04:59.360 Well, I could probably say Dan Sheriff McDermott here that 92 00:04:59.480 --> 00:05:02.839 you know, the there's commonalities across all of our county, 93 00:05:02.920 --> 00:05:07.000 throughout the Commonwealth, and certainly sheriffs have a predominant as 94 00:05:07.000 --> 00:05:10.959 a primary role of care and custody of inmates justice 95 00:05:10.959 --> 00:05:13.439 involved individuals that are serving up to two and a 96 00:05:13.480 --> 00:05:16.879 half years in the House of Correction or awaiting pre trial. 97 00:05:17.199 --> 00:05:20.319 But when it comes to offenders that are in our 98 00:05:20.399 --> 00:05:24.399 respective jurisdiction, one of the challenges of many, but the 99 00:05:24.439 --> 00:05:28.480 biggest one is the fact that we do have on average, 100 00:05:28.480 --> 00:05:30.720 you know, sixty five seventy percent of our individuals and 101 00:05:30.759 --> 00:05:35.600 custody or having a diagnosable substance use or mental health disorder. 102 00:05:35.839 --> 00:05:39.319 I think that's something that is significantly different than it 103 00:05:39.399 --> 00:05:43.879 was about twenty thirty years ago, you know, when crime 104 00:05:44.000 --> 00:05:46.480 was still crime. But I think the population that we're 105 00:05:46.519 --> 00:05:49.720 serving is a little bit more complex than it was 106 00:05:49.800 --> 00:05:52.639 back in the day, but across the board, across the commonwealth, 107 00:05:52.879 --> 00:05:55.839 that's a big challenge for sheriffs as well as members 108 00:05:55.879 --> 00:05:58.680 of the Department of Corrections who are challenged with, you know, 109 00:05:58.720 --> 00:06:00.759 the care and custod of these men and women who 110 00:06:00.800 --> 00:06:03.639 are largely going through a lot of a lot of 111 00:06:03.800 --> 00:06:07.839 significant trauma and problems which caused the criminal behavior in 112 00:06:07.839 --> 00:06:10.519 the first place. It gets them jammed up into the 113 00:06:10.560 --> 00:06:11.839 criminal justice system. 114 00:06:12.079 --> 00:06:14.560 Sure ball of similar situation out there are a little 115 00:06:14.600 --> 00:06:17.519 different in any respect, No, it's. 116 00:06:17.399 --> 00:06:19.879 About the same. We have. You know, about eighty five 117 00:06:19.920 --> 00:06:24.519 percent of of our justice involved individuals are you know, 118 00:06:24.560 --> 00:06:30.480 have a substitute disorder. Probably about seventy four percent are 119 00:06:30.519 --> 00:06:34.000 dealing with mental health challenges as well. You know, we 120 00:06:34.079 --> 00:06:38.399 deal with the individuals that we deal with. We find 121 00:06:38.399 --> 00:06:41.920 that and keep in mind in not everybody that comes 122 00:06:42.160 --> 00:06:45.439 to our facilities at the direction of the courts are 123 00:06:45.480 --> 00:06:49.439 all bad people. They've just made some bad choices and so, 124 00:06:50.560 --> 00:06:52.360 but we deal with we have people with a lack 125 00:06:52.399 --> 00:06:56.680 of education, the mental health challenges, medical challenge. We have 126 00:06:56.800 --> 00:07:01.839 seen the chronic disease or sickness or is skyrocketed from 127 00:07:02.240 --> 00:07:05.720 even when I started fourteen years ago. People that are 128 00:07:05.720 --> 00:07:10.800 coming to our facilities. Are are you know, more sick 129 00:07:10.839 --> 00:07:14.639 than they were years ago. So that presents a big, 130 00:07:14.720 --> 00:07:18.720 big challenge economically or financially for our office, in a 131 00:07:18.800 --> 00:07:22.160 strain in our medical medical health departments as well. 132 00:07:23.079 --> 00:07:25.360 I should also mention, if I'm not mistaken, that this 133 00:07:25.439 --> 00:07:31.879 is a period this week of awareness. Mental health awareness 134 00:07:31.959 --> 00:07:36.800 is this month actually, and also this week we observed 135 00:07:36.920 --> 00:07:42.040 National Correction Officers Week. Next week is National Police Week, 136 00:07:42.079 --> 00:07:43.959 and of course later on this month we deal with 137 00:07:47.560 --> 00:07:56.279 Memorial Day and remembering those who who have served in uniform. 138 00:07:56.360 --> 00:08:01.000 And you know, we we forget sometimes the sacrifices that 139 00:08:01.480 --> 00:08:04.879 people make, both from the military but also from the 140 00:08:05.040 --> 00:08:09.959 law enforcement division. So that's why we're talking today. We 141 00:08:10.040 --> 00:08:16.040 have two sheriffs, the president of the Massachusetts Sheriff Association, 142 00:08:17.079 --> 00:08:21.399 Sheriff Patrick McDermott in Berkshire County Sheriff Thomas Bowler. If 143 00:08:21.399 --> 00:08:24.000 you'd like to join and ask questions, you're welcome to 144 00:08:24.319 --> 00:08:27.720 join the conversation six one, seven, two, four ten thirty 145 00:08:27.800 --> 00:08:35.000 six seven nine three one ten thirty entertain calls. Again, 146 00:08:35.080 --> 00:08:37.879 I ask you to just keep it pretty much on topic. 147 00:08:38.639 --> 00:08:41.480 When I get back, I want to talk about a 148 00:08:41.519 --> 00:08:46.080 little bit about the challenges that you have in terms 149 00:08:46.159 --> 00:08:51.759 of the clientele. What percentage of the people who you're 150 00:08:51.799 --> 00:08:54.799 dealing with do you think really are looking to get 151 00:08:54.840 --> 00:08:57.000 their lives straightened out and get back on the straight 152 00:08:57.000 --> 00:09:00.120 and narrow, and what percentage cheff giving up whole? And 153 00:09:00.200 --> 00:09:02.799 how do you deal with and do you do you 154 00:09:02.879 --> 00:09:07.399 recognize that differences those differences amongst your population. We're back 155 00:09:07.440 --> 00:09:09.639 on Nightside. My name is Dan Ray. We're talking about 156 00:09:10.200 --> 00:09:14.360 crime and punishment. Really, crime and incarceration would be the 157 00:09:14.360 --> 00:09:18.039 way to talk about this hour tonight. Feel free to 158 00:09:18.120 --> 00:09:19.840 join us back on Nightside right after. 159 00:09:19.639 --> 00:09:26.919 This It's Night Side with Boston's News Radio. 160 00:09:28.120 --> 00:09:32.840 With me are two sheriffs from Massachusetts, Norfolk County Sheriff 161 00:09:32.879 --> 00:09:37.360 Patrick McDermott and Berkshire County Sheriff Thomas Boehler. And we 162 00:09:37.399 --> 00:09:39.720 will get to phone calls, and we have phone calls waiting, 163 00:09:39.759 --> 00:09:41.759 so I want to get to them fairly quickly. But 164 00:09:41.759 --> 00:09:45.039 I'd just like to finish up with a hot topic, 165 00:09:45.639 --> 00:09:50.000 and that is cooperating with the federal government. Federal government 166 00:09:50.039 --> 00:09:54.360 has changed. I know both of you are democratic officials. 167 00:09:55.000 --> 00:09:59.039 How can can either or both of you explain how 168 00:09:59.200 --> 00:10:02.639 this system should work when you have someone in custody 169 00:10:03.240 --> 00:10:07.639 that the federal government wants to to get in contact 170 00:10:07.679 --> 00:10:11.399 with or take custody off. I'm sure you're not putting 171 00:10:11.480 --> 00:10:13.840 up roadblocks, but what did the Feds have to do 172 00:10:14.480 --> 00:10:17.879 and what are they not doing that is that's causing 173 00:10:17.919 --> 00:10:19.159 a lot of the controversies. 174 00:10:20.960 --> 00:10:23.279 Well, you know, this has been something that we've dealt with. 175 00:10:23.320 --> 00:10:25.559 You know, with the change of administration comes with change 176 00:10:25.600 --> 00:10:28.559 of policies or more aggressive policies, as we've seen in 177 00:10:28.559 --> 00:10:31.759 Massachusetts in terms of the ramp up towards ICE and 178 00:10:32.080 --> 00:10:35.240 you know, we're working towards you know, you know, illegal immigration. 179 00:10:35.480 --> 00:10:38.480 So the Massachusetts Sheriffs are kind of on the forefront 180 00:10:38.480 --> 00:10:41.799 of this. You know, we've been having discussions with ICE 181 00:10:41.879 --> 00:10:44.799 and with with with folks in the federal government about 182 00:10:45.080 --> 00:10:50.240 the difference with Massachusetts law. And you know, the Massachusetts 183 00:10:50.240 --> 00:10:54.039 Sheriffs pointed out that the Supreme Judicial Court in twenty 184 00:10:54.120 --> 00:10:58.279 seventeen ruled that it is unlawful for the state and 185 00:10:58.360 --> 00:11:02.679 local law enforcement agencies in Massachusetts to detain anybody solely 186 00:11:02.720 --> 00:11:05.480 on the basis of the US immigrations and a Customs 187 00:11:05.559 --> 00:11:10.159 enforcement detainer beyond the time that that individual would otherwise 188 00:11:10.200 --> 00:11:12.799 be entitled to be released from our custody. So if 189 00:11:12.840 --> 00:11:16.240 an individual is coming up on release, we do have 190 00:11:16.440 --> 00:11:21.480 ongoing discussions with ICE. When an ICE attention comes in, 191 00:11:22.320 --> 00:11:26.159 we do notify that the ICE representatives they come in. 192 00:11:26.240 --> 00:11:28.840 They will often interview the people that are in our custody, 193 00:11:29.240 --> 00:11:32.559 but it's the ICE obligation to make sure that they're 194 00:11:33.039 --> 00:11:37.679 in the facility. When those individuals are preparing to be released, 195 00:11:37.960 --> 00:11:40.679 we're not allowed to hold on to them any longer 196 00:11:41.240 --> 00:11:44.080 than they ought to be. So it really is somewhat 197 00:11:44.080 --> 00:11:46.759 in the past that's been a big disconnect with ICE. 198 00:11:46.960 --> 00:11:50.639 We've had documentation in the Norfolk Sheriff's Office where ICE 199 00:11:50.679 --> 00:11:55.399 has been contacted and specifically we have been told we're 200 00:11:55.440 --> 00:11:58.480 not coming to get the individual. So the head that 201 00:11:58.559 --> 00:12:01.159 are disconnect in the past think that because of the 202 00:12:01.360 --> 00:12:06.360 more ramped up, you know, efforts by ICE, there's a 203 00:12:06.399 --> 00:12:09.360 lot more activity going on within our local jail system 204 00:12:09.519 --> 00:12:13.360 and the Massachusetts sheriffs will uphold the law. That is 205 00:12:13.399 --> 00:12:18.000 our obligation, and we will make sure we're upholding Massachusetts law, 206 00:12:18.519 --> 00:12:21.120 and we are happy to cooperate and work with ICE, 207 00:12:21.360 --> 00:12:23.879 but we will not violate the oaths of office we 208 00:12:23.960 --> 00:12:25.639 took to uphold the Massachusetts laws. 209 00:12:25.840 --> 00:12:29.840 Now, sheriffmcdermott, I believe I recognize your voice. You recently 210 00:12:29.879 --> 00:12:32.639 went to Washington, as I understand, and actually met with 211 00:12:32.679 --> 00:12:35.279 the new Attorney General, Pam Bondi, and the new head 212 00:12:35.279 --> 00:12:36.879 of the FBI, Cash Ptel. Correct. 213 00:12:38.159 --> 00:12:40.440 Correct, And you know I said, you know, with all 214 00:12:40.480 --> 00:12:44.720 the politics that surrounds yeah, you know, the Trump administration 215 00:12:45.039 --> 00:12:49.919 and Massachusetts being kind of a targeted state, and there 216 00:12:49.960 --> 00:12:53.879 are targeted states relative to those that don't necessarily see 217 00:12:53.879 --> 00:12:57.279 IDI with the new administration, my attitude and as sheriffs, 218 00:12:57.279 --> 00:12:59.039 and I think sure if Fola would share this with me, 219 00:12:59.080 --> 00:13:01.919 And you know, we're both members of national organizations of 220 00:13:02.000 --> 00:13:05.799 sheriffs from across the county the country. You know, when 221 00:13:05.799 --> 00:13:07.440 you take the oath of office as a sheriff and 222 00:13:07.440 --> 00:13:11.360 you put a badge on your chest, politics really kind 223 00:13:11.360 --> 00:13:13.200 of goes by a little bit of a wayside. We 224 00:13:13.279 --> 00:13:16.440 actually just look towards public safety issues. So my obligation, 225 00:13:17.080 --> 00:13:19.320 you know, as a president of the Massachusetts Sheriff as 226 00:13:19.440 --> 00:13:21.399 just the sheriff, you know, I need to be in 227 00:13:21.399 --> 00:13:23.799 the arena if I'm going to do battle. But I 228 00:13:23.840 --> 00:13:26.919 needed to see to I with Attorney General BONDI with 229 00:13:27.039 --> 00:13:30.600 the FBI Director Cash Bettel. I've met with Secretary of 230 00:13:30.759 --> 00:13:33.799 Education Lynda McMahon on some of the problems with grants. 231 00:13:34.039 --> 00:13:37.440 So we need to be as as Teddy Roosevelt talked 232 00:13:37.480 --> 00:13:39.759 about the man in the arena, if you're going to 233 00:13:39.879 --> 00:13:44.759 at least have of debates and articulate and argument, you've 234 00:13:44.759 --> 00:13:47.679 got to be where you know the debate is, and 235 00:13:47.720 --> 00:13:49.600 that's going to be in Washington, d C. And I 236 00:13:49.679 --> 00:13:51.919 intend to spend a lot of time down there just 237 00:13:52.039 --> 00:13:57.559 kind of educating Washington bureaucrats about what we're doing in Massachusetts, 238 00:13:57.600 --> 00:14:01.000 on all the great things we're doing, but also letting 239 00:14:01.000 --> 00:14:03.799 them know that we're just not going to be necessarily 240 00:14:03.840 --> 00:14:08.240 bullied by statements by federal officials about how we should 241 00:14:08.440 --> 00:14:09.720 handle things in Massachusetts. 242 00:14:09.799 --> 00:14:13.720 How do you balance that off with US versus Arizona 243 00:14:13.840 --> 00:14:18.639 the twenty eleven decision, which basically said that federal immigration 244 00:14:18.840 --> 00:14:23.440 law preempts the immigration law nationally. That was the case 245 00:14:23.480 --> 00:14:29.440 where the governor of Arizona, Republican governor Governor Brewer, decided 246 00:14:29.480 --> 00:14:34.039 she wanted to have stricter immigration enforcement than was being 247 00:14:34.840 --> 00:14:38.240 utilized by the Obama administration back in twenty ten, and 248 00:14:38.320 --> 00:14:42.120 Supreme Court basically ruled, hey, the FED set immigration law, 249 00:14:42.360 --> 00:14:46.840 their word was preempted. Now, I don't know how you 250 00:14:47.000 --> 00:14:50.120 reconcile that decision with the Lun decision. Is it kind 251 00:14:50.120 --> 00:14:55.440 of puts I think Massachusetts sheriffs in a difficult, awkward position. 252 00:14:55.720 --> 00:14:58.320 Or am I misreading one or both of those cases. 253 00:15:00.159 --> 00:15:03.320 The Arizona case was twenty twelve. I believe with the 254 00:15:03.360 --> 00:15:07.240 Supreme Court ruling says states cannot enforce federal law, we 255 00:15:07.240 --> 00:15:11.440 we won't be enforcing federal law. Lun just simply your 256 00:15:11.519 --> 00:15:15.360 firms that we can't do ICE enforcement outside of what 257 00:15:15.519 --> 00:15:18.440 and then we get into the weeds with a formal 258 00:15:18.840 --> 00:15:21.360 contract with ICE, which is under this much know as 259 00:15:21.399 --> 00:15:24.879 the two eighty seven gen contract. And there is always, 260 00:15:24.919 --> 00:15:26.679 as you know, Dan, and you know, as both of 261 00:15:26.759 --> 00:15:30.159 us are lawyers, you know, there's there's consistently conflicts of 262 00:15:30.279 --> 00:15:33.360 law that come up, and there's usually those particular matters 263 00:15:33.399 --> 00:15:36.279 that that settle things a little bit differently in states. 264 00:15:36.320 --> 00:15:40.679 By states, you'll oftentimes have different outlooks as to how 265 00:15:40.879 --> 00:15:43.919 laws can be enforced. And you know, we've never had 266 00:15:44.200 --> 00:15:47.039 Arizona come down in the twenty twelve case, and it 267 00:15:47.200 --> 00:15:51.080 was discussed in the twenty seventeen case in Lun. But 268 00:15:51.600 --> 00:15:54.039 that's the case as far as we're concerned in Massachusetts 269 00:15:54.080 --> 00:15:55.879 that we are obligated to follow. 270 00:15:57.039 --> 00:16:02.360 So you you follow Lun is what I'm hearing you say. Correct, correct, 271 00:16:02.600 --> 00:16:04.360 But you know as well as I do that in 272 00:16:04.440 --> 00:16:08.679 recent memory, going back to fifty seven in Arkansas with 273 00:16:08.720 --> 00:16:15.720 Governor Farbas and President Eisenhower, those cases involved desegregation cases 274 00:16:15.840 --> 00:16:21.360 where Arkansas and eventually Alabama two were forced rightfully so 275 00:16:21.440 --> 00:16:23.759 to integrate their school systems. They said that they had 276 00:16:23.759 --> 00:16:27.039 state laws in their states which we were in conflict 277 00:16:27.080 --> 00:16:28.960 with the federal law, and the federal law tends to prevail. 278 00:16:29.159 --> 00:16:31.799 It's going to be interesting to see how how this 279 00:16:31.919 --> 00:16:34.120 all works out. You guys are in a tough spot, 280 00:16:35.200 --> 00:16:39.039 no question about it, and they don't envy your position. 281 00:16:39.480 --> 00:16:45.759 But both of you, I think understand the circumstances and 282 00:16:47.159 --> 00:16:52.480 the concern that people have with people who are here illegally, 283 00:16:52.480 --> 00:16:54.840 who have committed some pretty serious crimes. I got to 284 00:16:54.879 --> 00:16:58.000 take a break, Sheriff Buller. We're going to get your 285 00:16:58.559 --> 00:16:59.480 take on that as well. 286 00:16:59.639 --> 00:16:59.799 Well. 287 00:17:00.000 --> 00:17:03.039 We'll get to phone calls along the way as well. 288 00:17:04.000 --> 00:17:06.039 We'll got a quick news break here at the bottom 289 00:17:06.079 --> 00:17:08.119 of the hour. We the only line open right now. 290 00:17:08.160 --> 00:17:10.599 We get two lines at six, one, seven, two, five, four, 291 00:17:10.720 --> 00:17:13.000 ten thirty. I'm going to ask everyone when you do call, 292 00:17:13.079 --> 00:17:17.160 please be polite. Ask whatever questions you want, but again, 293 00:17:17.759 --> 00:17:22.039 don't need to make speeches, just just simple direct questions 294 00:17:22.440 --> 00:17:25.119 and they will give you direct These these two gentlemen, 295 00:17:25.200 --> 00:17:27.559 I think are very capable of giving direct answers as 296 00:17:27.599 --> 00:17:29.640 you've just seen. We'll be back on Night's Side right 297 00:17:29.640 --> 00:17:30.000 after this. 298 00:17:30.559 --> 00:17:34.559 It's Night Side with Dan Ray on w B Boston's 299 00:17:34.599 --> 00:17:35.240 news radio. 300 00:17:36.519 --> 00:17:39.799 Welcome back everyone. We're talking with the two Massachusetts sheriff's 301 00:17:39.839 --> 00:17:43.240 tonight in Norfolk County, Patrick McDermott, Berkshire County Sheriff Thomas 302 00:17:43.279 --> 00:17:44.640 Bohler Shreff Bowler. 303 00:17:44.640 --> 00:17:48.839 You didn't get a chance to comment on how you 304 00:17:49.319 --> 00:17:53.160 deal with immigration issues, and certainly in the context of 305 00:17:53.240 --> 00:17:56.880 yous versus Arizona and the lung lung decision, which seemed 306 00:17:56.920 --> 00:18:00.400 to me to be have some inherent contradictions between the 307 00:18:00.440 --> 00:18:00.880 two of them. 308 00:18:01.079 --> 00:18:03.720 Do you want to comment on what the status is 309 00:18:03.759 --> 00:18:04.799 out in Berkshire County? 310 00:18:05.799 --> 00:18:10.039 Sure, I go along with what Sheriff McDermott has stated earlier, 311 00:18:10.079 --> 00:18:13.960 we have always worked with ICE in the past. We've 312 00:18:14.000 --> 00:18:20.160 had incidents as well where we've notified ICE on certain 313 00:18:20.160 --> 00:18:24.559 individuals that they've had detainers on and we basically put 314 00:18:24.599 --> 00:18:27.000 the onus back onto ICE whether they want to pick 315 00:18:27.000 --> 00:18:30.599 these individuals pick them up or not. We have had 316 00:18:30.599 --> 00:18:34.079 in the past where they never showed up. Recently, obviously 317 00:18:34.079 --> 00:18:37.319 with this new administration, they seem to be following up 318 00:18:37.359 --> 00:18:39.799 on a lot of the individuals that we call them on. 319 00:18:39.880 --> 00:18:41.359 And of course we don't have a lot up here 320 00:18:41.400 --> 00:18:43.599 in Berkshire County, but we've had a couple here and there. 321 00:18:44.599 --> 00:18:47.839 But basically what Patrick mcdervis, we follow the law and 322 00:18:47.880 --> 00:18:51.160 we work with our law enforcement partners in this, and 323 00:18:51.720 --> 00:18:55.039 I think it's very important that we continue to have 324 00:18:55.160 --> 00:18:57.759 a good positive dialogue and relationship with them when it 325 00:18:57.799 --> 00:19:00.960 comes to the public safety issues with this. You know, 326 00:19:01.000 --> 00:19:05.799 we will not hold anybody on just a detainer. The 327 00:19:05.839 --> 00:19:08.039 only way we would hold somebody if there is a 328 00:19:08.160 --> 00:19:14.279 judicial warrant UH or a judicial warrant from signed by 329 00:19:14.319 --> 00:19:17.400 a federal judge that would allow us to keep somebody 330 00:19:17.440 --> 00:19:20.160 beyond their detainer. But as far as the detainers go, 331 00:19:20.440 --> 00:19:23.599 we notify ICE as we always do, and put the 332 00:19:23.599 --> 00:19:25.519 onus back on them whether they show up for the 333 00:19:25.599 --> 00:19:26.240 release or not. 334 00:19:27.079 --> 00:19:30.079 So what I'm hearing you saying, if I'm incorrect, please 335 00:19:30.119 --> 00:19:34.640 correct me that during the the Biden years, if you will, 336 00:19:35.440 --> 00:19:40.359 the attitude of ICE seems to be a little bit different. 337 00:19:41.160 --> 00:19:46.640 You know, we have a deputy director, Tom Lyons from 338 00:19:47.240 --> 00:19:50.319 todd Lyons excuse me, Tom Lyons the Sun from from 339 00:19:50.359 --> 00:19:53.920 the Boston area, and they're a little bit more aggressive. 340 00:19:53.960 --> 00:19:56.799 It sounds to me like they're moving more quickly. When 341 00:19:56.839 --> 00:20:00.240 you notify that you have someone in your custody for 342 00:20:00.319 --> 00:20:02.680 whom they have a detainer, you're not going to hold 343 00:20:02.680 --> 00:20:05.240 them for three weeks or two weeks or a week 344 00:20:05.279 --> 00:20:08.240 for that matter. But it sounds to me like the 345 00:20:08.240 --> 00:20:12.960 Trump administration's ICE are a little more aggressive in terms 346 00:20:13.039 --> 00:20:17.759 of moving quickly then the the Biden administration was. Is 347 00:20:17.759 --> 00:20:19.599 what I'm hearing you say. If I'm missing that, please 348 00:20:19.599 --> 00:20:20.039 correct me. 349 00:20:21.079 --> 00:20:25.720 Well, it's not so much. The Biden administration was also 350 00:20:25.759 --> 00:20:30.680 even prior to the Biden administration, So it just seems 351 00:20:30.680 --> 00:20:35.119 with this new administration that that things have obviously ramped 352 00:20:35.160 --> 00:20:37.720 up a little bit. But we still we still follow 353 00:20:37.880 --> 00:20:41.079 you know, we follow our law here. If it's a detainer, 354 00:20:41.119 --> 00:20:44.640 which is just a simple request from an ICE agent 355 00:20:44.720 --> 00:20:47.599 to hold somebody, we do not have the authority to 356 00:20:47.680 --> 00:20:50.839 do that. So we put the onus back on ICE. 357 00:20:50.960 --> 00:20:54.480 If we notify them the individual could be getting released, 358 00:20:54.519 --> 00:20:57.839 either either from court or from our facility, then we 359 00:20:57.960 --> 00:21:00.519 notify them with ample time so that they can arrive 360 00:21:00.759 --> 00:21:04.160 and then you know, take that person to custody. 361 00:21:04.359 --> 00:21:06.359 Right. So it sounds to me what I'm hearing you're 362 00:21:06.359 --> 00:21:08.000 saying if I'm wrong here, please, I don't want to 363 00:21:08.000 --> 00:21:10.960 put words in your mouth. Is that ICE at this 364 00:21:11.119 --> 00:21:15.920 point will move as quickly as they can, depending upon 365 00:21:15.920 --> 00:21:20.920 the individual, depending upon their their availability of personnel, with 366 00:21:21.039 --> 00:21:25.799 a little bit more alacrity than you were seeing with 367 00:21:26.720 --> 00:21:30.519 the ICE that was functioning under the Binding administration. That's 368 00:21:30.799 --> 00:21:33.559 I'm just trying to make I'm trying to understand that 369 00:21:33.920 --> 00:21:36.319 to be really honest with you, because if it's changed 370 00:21:36.359 --> 00:21:39.359 a little bit, it's a change. You're following the same 371 00:21:39.839 --> 00:21:42.079 pattern and procedure, and ICE is being a little more 372 00:21:42.160 --> 00:21:49.359 responsive under this administration or under this administration of ICE. Correct, fair, okay, am, 373 00:21:49.400 --> 00:21:51.759 i We're on the same page. I just want to 374 00:21:51.759 --> 00:21:53.279 make sure we're on the same page. I don't want 375 00:21:53.279 --> 00:21:55.839 to put words in anyone's mouth misleads you. I want 376 00:21:55.839 --> 00:21:58.359 to understand it better because, frankly, it's one of the 377 00:21:58.400 --> 00:22:00.319 advantages of doing a show like this is I can 378 00:22:00.359 --> 00:22:03.480 talk to and my listeners can hear from folks who 379 00:22:03.480 --> 00:22:07.000 are in positions of authority, like both you, Sheriff McDermot 380 00:22:07.039 --> 00:22:10.319 and Sheriff Bowler. Which Bowler, which is really important for 381 00:22:10.440 --> 00:22:12.160 us to hear. Let's get to some phone calls if 382 00:22:12.240 --> 00:22:15.160 if you gentlemen are ready, I'm gonna go to Jason, 383 00:22:15.480 --> 00:22:19.119 Jason and Walt Walthy. Jason, you were first tonight with 384 00:22:19.240 --> 00:22:23.240 the two Massachusetts sheriffs, Patrick McDermott of Norfolk County and 385 00:22:23.359 --> 00:22:25.200 Thomas Bohler of Berkshire County. 386 00:22:25.200 --> 00:22:28.640 Go right ahead, Jason, Yes, thank you for taking out call, 387 00:22:28.720 --> 00:22:31.359 and thank you John Man for being on the show tonight. 388 00:22:32.640 --> 00:22:35.400 I got a question. I'm futuntly. Unfortunately, I have a 389 00:22:35.519 --> 00:22:40.519 history of being a guest in your houses, not particularly well. 390 00:22:40.440 --> 00:22:44.559 Well put, Jason, Jason, well put nicely put go right ahead. 391 00:22:47.000 --> 00:22:47.200 Now. 392 00:22:47.279 --> 00:22:51.119 No, not specifically Norfolk or Baksha, but in Atlanta. Full 393 00:22:51.160 --> 00:22:54.480 Thin County, copp County in bear Rica. But I know 394 00:22:54.559 --> 00:22:58.400 it's a difference. In Joja, we don't have no tablets. 395 00:22:58.559 --> 00:23:00.319 But when I came to bear Rica, when I was 396 00:23:00.319 --> 00:23:03.240 a guest in bear Rica a few times for free, 397 00:23:04.680 --> 00:23:07.920 they got tablets. I'm like, what's the state wasting money 398 00:23:07.960 --> 00:23:10.839 on the tablets? All these inmates walking around listening to music. 399 00:23:11.440 --> 00:23:13.839 So when I was against in Capp County, I was 400 00:23:13.880 --> 00:23:16.880 able to complete a semester at a graduate degree. I 401 00:23:16.920 --> 00:23:19.640