1 00:00:17,879 --> 00:00:20,600 Speaker 1: And we are back with another edition of the Federalist 2 00:00:20,679 --> 00:00:25,000 Radio Hour. I'm Matt Kittles, senior Elections correspondent at the Federalist, 3 00:00:25,359 --> 00:00:29,920 and your experienced Shirpa on today's quest for knowledge. As always, 4 00:00:29,920 --> 00:00:32,840 you can email the show at radio at the Federalist 5 00:00:32,920 --> 00:00:37,240 dot com, follow us on ext FDR LST, make sure 6 00:00:37,240 --> 00:00:40,399 to subscribe wherever you download your podcast, and of course 7 00:00:40,840 --> 00:00:44,439 to the premium version of our website as well. Our 8 00:00:44,439 --> 00:00:49,479 guest today is Vironique de Rougie, George Gibbs, Chair in 9 00:00:49,560 --> 00:00:53,479 Political Economy and senior research fellow with the Mercada Center. 10 00:00:54,039 --> 00:01:00,960 Our topic today, yes, the shutdown staredown is on shut 11 00:01:01,000 --> 00:01:05,719 down politics and the ultimate loser in this latest dysfunctional 12 00:01:05,719 --> 00:01:11,920 government saga, the taxpayer. Of course, always the taxpayer. Vernique, 13 00:01:11,920 --> 00:01:13,760 thank you so much for joining us on this edition 14 00:01:13,760 --> 00:01:14,920 of the Federalist Radio Hour. 15 00:01:15,640 --> 00:01:16,560 Speaker 2: Thank you for having me. 16 00:01:17,040 --> 00:01:22,640 Speaker 1: Absolutely as we talk this afternoon, the government is still 17 00:01:23,159 --> 00:01:28,000 shut down in what day number two of the usual 18 00:01:28,079 --> 00:01:32,519 round of madness that's subject to change at any time, 19 00:01:32,560 --> 00:01:35,920 and so therefore I really want to talk about the 20 00:01:35,959 --> 00:01:41,640 mechanics behind all of this, what these two sides seem 21 00:01:41,719 --> 00:01:44,959 to be fighting for. What is on the line ultimately 22 00:01:45,799 --> 00:01:50,040 for Americans and for the American taxpayer specifically. But let 23 00:01:50,120 --> 00:01:52,079 us begin with how did we get here. 24 00:01:53,760 --> 00:01:57,439 Speaker 2: It's a good question. I think we got here many 25 00:01:57,560 --> 00:02:03,920 years ago. I think when Congress lost the muscle fairly 26 00:02:04,000 --> 00:02:12,800 quickly actually to pass the budget and appropriate appropriation bills 27 00:02:12,840 --> 00:02:19,319 on time do their job. Basically, they just fairly in 28 00:02:19,360 --> 00:02:23,800 the last fifty years that the budget roles were passed, 29 00:02:25,159 --> 00:02:29,680 they've only passed the budget four times following the regular order. 30 00:02:29,879 --> 00:02:33,599 Speaker 1: In fifty years. That is ridiculously amazing. 31 00:02:34,039 --> 00:02:37,319 Speaker 2: Yes, there, but I will say that the last twenty 32 00:02:37,599 --> 00:02:41,319 have been like the worst because not only and what 33 00:02:41,680 --> 00:02:45,039 used to be just kind of slide kind of going 34 00:02:45,080 --> 00:02:49,719 over time to pass all the appropriations bill or whatever 35 00:02:50,400 --> 00:02:54,919 like turn into it to just basically something ridiculous. Like 36 00:02:55,840 --> 00:03:00,520 during the last bread the last term President Biden term, 37 00:03:01,360 --> 00:03:07,360 they had to pass thirteen continuing resolution because they were 38 00:03:07,439 --> 00:03:11,120 just absolutely not on time. Continuing resolution is one of 39 00:03:11,120 --> 00:03:15,319 the things that are in dispute right now. So they're 40 00:03:15,520 --> 00:03:21,719 basically they're a bill that passes the House and the 41 00:03:21,759 --> 00:03:29,800 Senate and goes onto the President's desk to extend the 42 00:03:29,840 --> 00:03:34,639 spending numbers from a given year to the next in 43 00:03:34,840 --> 00:03:40,960 order to give more time to Congress to pass the 44 00:03:41,120 --> 00:03:45,680 new year's budget numbers. Basically, So to give you a 45 00:03:45,719 --> 00:03:50,400 concrete example, right now they're working on the budget twenty 46 00:03:50,439 --> 00:03:55,840 twenty six. They're only passed on a bipartisan basis. Three 47 00:03:56,039 --> 00:04:01,120 of the twelve appropriation bill. The fiscal year ended on 48 00:04:01,759 --> 00:04:06,520 October first or September thirtieth, And what the House of 49 00:04:06,719 --> 00:04:14,520 Representative passed with only one Democrat is a clear continuing reserlation, 50 00:04:16,240 --> 00:04:21,240 continuing resolution bill that would extend the twenty twenty five 51 00:04:21,360 --> 00:04:26,920 funding into all the way to November twenty twenty six. 52 00:04:28,000 --> 00:04:31,720 And so it's the same level that we've been on. 53 00:04:31,879 --> 00:04:35,839 There's no addition, there's no cut. It's just the same 54 00:04:35,920 --> 00:04:40,560 level as the one basically they agreed to in March 55 00:04:42,040 --> 00:04:48,279 and in December twenty twenty four. Basically, and right now 56 00:04:48,720 --> 00:04:51,680 the Democrats in the Senate said they weren't going to 57 00:04:52,240 --> 00:04:55,560 agree to that, and so the government shut down. 58 00:04:57,639 --> 00:05:01,519 Speaker 1: And what they are seeking, that is to say, in 59 00:05:01,519 --> 00:05:06,959 this case, the Republicans, what they are seeking is the 60 00:05:07,000 --> 00:05:11,399 continuation of the status quo at least through election year, 61 00:05:11,560 --> 00:05:14,120 the mid terms twenty twenty six. Correct, Well, I. 62 00:05:14,079 --> 00:05:20,040 Speaker 2: Think what the Republicans say they are seeking is time 63 00:05:20,879 --> 00:05:26,279 to finish the appropriations process, times to pass the other 64 00:05:26,600 --> 00:05:29,959 eight bills that they need to pass in order to 65 00:05:30,319 --> 00:05:34,639 basically follow the rule to passing the twenty twenty six budget. 66 00:05:35,439 --> 00:05:39,519 And so they weren't. They're not saying we're going to 67 00:05:39,519 --> 00:05:43,399 continue the spending level of twenty twenty five all the 68 00:05:43,439 --> 00:05:46,399 way through twenty twenty six. They're just saying, give us 69 00:05:46,480 --> 00:05:50,399 an extra what is it, six weeks in order to 70 00:05:50,600 --> 00:05:53,639 basically have time to work on what we need to 71 00:05:53,680 --> 00:05:58,759 work on. And the Democrats said no. The Democrat in 72 00:05:58,800 --> 00:06:00,959 the House with the exception of one, and the Democrat 73 00:06:01,000 --> 00:06:03,879 and the Senate with the exception of three said no. 74 00:06:04,519 --> 00:06:07,519 And the reason why they said no is that they 75 00:06:07,560 --> 00:06:13,279 want to use this moment as leverage to get things 76 00:06:13,319 --> 00:06:16,560 that Republicans don't want to give them and those like 77 00:06:16,680 --> 00:06:20,439 the I mean, just to kind of summarize a little 78 00:06:20,439 --> 00:06:25,360 bit what they want. They want their tax credits Obamacare 79 00:06:25,439 --> 00:06:30,000 tax credit that were extended during the pandemic. Well, actually 80 00:06:30,040 --> 00:06:33,079 we really wasn't during the pandemic, because it was it 81 00:06:33,120 --> 00:06:39,160 was in twenty twenty one. They expire at the end 82 00:06:39,199 --> 00:06:44,480 of this year, and they want them to be made permanent. 83 00:06:44,560 --> 00:06:50,040 So they want emergency spending, tax credit, tax credit, emergency 84 00:06:50,199 --> 00:06:54,600 tax credit extensions to be made permanent even during time 85 00:06:54,639 --> 00:06:58,360 of non emergency. And the second big category of things 86 00:06:58,360 --> 00:07:03,879 that they want is that the reforms and spending cuts 87 00:07:04,000 --> 00:07:11,600 that were made to pay for the tax reduction or 88 00:07:11,639 --> 00:07:16,160 the tax reform and the one big beautiful bill be 89 00:07:16,199 --> 00:07:19,160 a raise that we went back to spending like we 90 00:07:19,160 --> 00:07:22,680 were before, especially on medicaid spend. 91 00:07:22,839 --> 00:07:27,000 Speaker 1: Yes, spending is the operative term here. What is it 92 00:07:27,560 --> 00:07:31,639 north of a trillion dollars of new spending to a 93 00:07:31,839 --> 00:07:36,319 budget that is burdened by a deficit that is quickly 94 00:07:36,360 --> 00:07:40,319 approaching thirty seven trillion dollars. I mean, this is untenable. 95 00:07:40,360 --> 00:07:42,959 But then when you think about it, what they are 96 00:07:43,160 --> 00:07:48,120 fighting for, the Democrats in this case, all of this spending, 97 00:07:48,279 --> 00:07:53,879 as you note, that was meant for an emergency situation. 98 00:07:54,000 --> 00:07:56,759 And we can argue about how much of an emergency 99 00:07:56,800 --> 00:07:59,279 it was to put more debt on the backs of 100 00:07:59,279 --> 00:08:03,000 our children grandchildren during that time period, but that's what 101 00:08:03,040 --> 00:08:07,000 it was sold as, and that emergency is long over, 102 00:08:07,120 --> 00:08:09,560 and yet they want to continue to spend this money. 103 00:08:09,800 --> 00:08:11,920 And no matter what they say is we have reported 104 00:08:11,959 --> 00:08:14,000 at the Federals don't want to get your take on this. 105 00:08:14,720 --> 00:08:20,360 Some of this money would indeed go to illegal immigrants. 106 00:08:20,720 --> 00:08:23,920 Democrats like to say, no, that's not the case. They 107 00:08:24,000 --> 00:08:28,920 say that because the Biden administration changed the definition of 108 00:08:28,920 --> 00:08:33,360 what probation really is in all of these cases, and 109 00:08:33,399 --> 00:08:38,840 so we have millions of people on probation that wouldn't 110 00:08:38,879 --> 00:08:43,240 have been allowed here before and they are, by any 111 00:08:43,279 --> 00:08:48,120 Americans estimates, still in a legal immigrant and still benefiting 112 00:08:48,159 --> 00:08:50,519 from American taxpayer dollars. 113 00:08:51,000 --> 00:08:53,799 Speaker 2: Yeah, that's one thing. And the other thing is that 114 00:08:53,840 --> 00:08:58,159 they remove the cap, for instance, for the emergency expansion 115 00:08:58,200 --> 00:09:01,519 of the text credits, so a lot of this money 116 00:09:02,399 --> 00:09:06,799 goes to a household that have very high income and 117 00:09:06,840 --> 00:09:10,879 that's just not right. So it's just like, there's no 118 00:09:10,960 --> 00:09:14,759 reason for taxpayers to be subsidizing people who make let's say, 119 00:09:14,759 --> 00:09:18,000 as a family, you know, over two hundred thousand dollars 120 00:09:18,000 --> 00:09:21,000 a year, and yet this is what's going on right 121 00:09:21,039 --> 00:09:23,720 now that was going to expire at the end of 122 00:09:23,720 --> 00:09:27,600 the year, and the Democrats are shutting down the government 123 00:09:27,720 --> 00:09:34,080 because they would like this subsidy for high income taxpayers 124 00:09:34,080 --> 00:09:36,200 but also illegal immigrants to continue. 125 00:09:36,720 --> 00:09:39,159 Speaker 1: So how's it working out for them this time around. 126 00:09:39,759 --> 00:09:45,279 Speaker 2: Well, the politics. The politics is hard for me to know. 127 00:09:45,480 --> 00:09:47,600 But the thing is, what we know from the past 128 00:09:47,759 --> 00:09:50,720 is like, it doesn't matter. It doesn't matter. When the 129 00:09:50,759 --> 00:09:56,360 Republicans showed the government and was it ninety six under Gingridge, 130 00:09:56,600 --> 00:10:00,320 it was extremely unpopular by all accounts, but they ended 131 00:10:00,399 --> 00:10:04,200 up being re elected and doing great, you know, and 132 00:10:04,799 --> 00:10:10,639 so it was like, it's not it's it's unclear that 133 00:10:10,960 --> 00:10:16,840 even if one party comes out ahead in the short term, 134 00:10:17,960 --> 00:10:20,720 and often it is the Democrat, this time around, I'm 135 00:10:20,759 --> 00:10:25,360 not sure, but it won't matter in the end. It 136 00:10:25,480 --> 00:10:26,279 just won't matter. 137 00:10:26,960 --> 00:10:30,960 Speaker 1: Yeah, the polling so far, so far, and this is 138 00:10:31,039 --> 00:10:35,039 early into it shows that the vast majority of Americans 139 00:10:35,080 --> 00:10:39,879 are blaming Democrats because this is really their shutdown. Republicans 140 00:10:39,919 --> 00:10:44,440 have certainly been on that front before, but this this 141 00:10:44,600 --> 00:10:46,960 was their their line in the sand. But I guess 142 00:10:47,039 --> 00:10:48,480 the issue is no doubt. 143 00:10:48,679 --> 00:10:52,440 Speaker 2: There's no doubt that this is a Democrat. The Democrats 144 00:10:52,559 --> 00:10:56,559 are responsible for this shutdown. A lot of what they 145 00:10:56,639 --> 00:10:59,840 asked for has nothing to do with the twenty twenty 146 00:11:01,000 --> 00:11:05,519 the twenty twenty six budget, the tax credits we're only 147 00:11:05,559 --> 00:11:07,440 going to expire at the end of the year, so 148 00:11:07,519 --> 00:11:10,080 there's no reason to do it right now. We don't 149 00:11:10,120 --> 00:11:14,679 have the money anyway. It's really kind of shocking when 150 00:11:14,720 --> 00:11:17,080 you think about the fact that they want to stop 151 00:11:17,720 --> 00:11:21,399 paying for the tax cuts. I mean, so basically we 152 00:11:21,440 --> 00:11:24,399 should be saying, you know that the Democrats are for 153 00:11:24,639 --> 00:11:30,600 tax cuts, you know, tax cuts without paying for them. 154 00:11:30,840 --> 00:11:35,919 I guess it's this is their shutdown. And I saw 155 00:11:37,200 --> 00:11:41,759 pulling on the day of so before it happened. That 156 00:11:41,840 --> 00:11:46,200 showed very clearly that the American people were against the shutdown. 157 00:11:46,320 --> 00:11:51,080 They didn't want to see the shutdown happen. And and 158 00:11:51,240 --> 00:11:56,960 this is with all you know, the media messaging as 159 00:11:57,000 --> 00:12:01,320 if it was the fault of the Republicans. So yeah, 160 00:12:01,360 --> 00:12:06,879 I wouldn't be surprised if Democrats like came out of 161 00:12:06,919 --> 00:12:11,759 this even more hurt than they were coming in. But 162 00:12:11,840 --> 00:12:15,360 no matter what happens, it's it's always short lived, you know, 163 00:12:16,080 --> 00:12:20,440 so at the very least in the past, no big 164 00:12:20,480 --> 00:12:28,559 political victory has ever happened thanks to you know, like 165 00:12:28,720 --> 00:12:32,399 someone who was against the shut the party was against 166 00:12:32,399 --> 00:12:35,840 the shutdown, and nothing really bad has ever happened to 167 00:12:36,559 --> 00:12:38,240 those who were for the shutdown. 168 00:12:38,279 --> 00:12:40,919 Speaker 1: I guess, yeah, I think You're absolutely right. Time and 169 00:12:40,960 --> 00:12:43,799 time again, election after election we learned the same thing. 170 00:12:43,919 --> 00:12:48,759 But the shutdown politics doesn't make a net winner out 171 00:12:48,759 --> 00:12:54,679 of either party because the American voter has divided. As 172 00:12:54,720 --> 00:13:00,120 the American voter is continues to put in Congress people 173 00:13:00,159 --> 00:13:05,000 who have abdicated their jobs over and over and over again. 174 00:13:05,200 --> 00:13:10,080 But here is the issue. Each American, of course, has 175 00:13:10,200 --> 00:13:13,120 a different idea of what the job of Congress is 176 00:13:13,159 --> 00:13:15,600 to do. It seems to me the left in this 177 00:13:15,639 --> 00:13:20,120 country believes and supports the idea that the job of 178 00:13:20,200 --> 00:13:28,480 Congress is to continually fill this insatiable appetite for spending. 179 00:13:29,840 --> 00:13:34,240 And that's that's really ultimately what will happen here. Because 180 00:13:34,720 --> 00:13:39,320 I want to ask you about what the status quo means, 181 00:13:39,360 --> 00:13:44,000 because it's still the Biden administration status quo. It's still 182 00:13:44,639 --> 00:13:49,000 an ungodly amount of spending going forward just for this 183 00:13:49,039 --> 00:13:50,320 continuing resolution. 184 00:13:53,840 --> 00:13:58,200 Speaker 2: I don't you know, can I can I tell you 185 00:13:58,240 --> 00:14:01,720 the thing that frustrates me the most, absolutely mess. I 186 00:14:01,759 --> 00:14:05,279 think we're reading too much into this. We're all reading 187 00:14:05,279 --> 00:14:08,080 way too much into this. The Democrats are in a 188 00:14:08,120 --> 00:14:11,519 bad position because they are stock between a situation where 189 00:14:11,799 --> 00:14:15,720 they know their base really want them to do really, 190 00:14:17,240 --> 00:14:20,639 you know, retaliate against Republicans, but they really have no 191 00:14:20,759 --> 00:14:22,360 means to do it. And this is why we're in 192 00:14:22,399 --> 00:14:26,080 this mess. It means nothing more than this. In the end, 193 00:14:26,360 --> 00:14:28,360 I think nothing. 194 00:14:28,720 --> 00:14:30,559 Speaker 1: I agree with you, Yeah, yeah. 195 00:14:30,399 --> 00:14:32,759 Speaker 2: I think. And nothing good is going to come out 196 00:14:32,799 --> 00:14:35,919 of this. And what frustrates me the most right is 197 00:14:35,919 --> 00:14:40,559 that actually both sides are pretty fiscally irresponsible. I mean 198 00:14:40,600 --> 00:14:43,519 not just right now, but it's been over time and 199 00:14:43,559 --> 00:14:45,080 this isn't going to solve nothing. 200 00:14:46,440 --> 00:14:50,320 Speaker 1: Yeah it is. It is a useless exercise. 201 00:14:50,399 --> 00:14:53,399 Speaker 2: It's a total useless exercise. And you know, I've learned, 202 00:14:54,480 --> 00:14:57,159 I've learned their hard way because I remember in twenty 203 00:14:57,320 --> 00:15:01,159 thirteen during the Obama Care debate, you know, I saw 204 00:15:01,240 --> 00:15:06,759 some value and actually the Ted Cus shut down. I thought, 205 00:15:06,840 --> 00:15:08,960 you know what, you want to fight for your principles? 206 00:15:09,159 --> 00:15:11,159 What are you going to do? This is a really 207 00:15:11,240 --> 00:15:16,279 bad this is a very bad precedent that this country 208 00:15:16,360 --> 00:15:21,039 is setting with this Obamacare reform blah blah blah. And 209 00:15:21,120 --> 00:15:23,679 I thought, you know, you have to show your principle 210 00:15:23,720 --> 00:15:26,159 if you're a member of Congress. Nothing good came out 211 00:15:26,200 --> 00:15:29,879 of it, Nothing good came out of it, and so 212 00:15:30,879 --> 00:15:34,519 I'm kind of like, now I've learned over the years, 213 00:15:34,559 --> 00:15:36,919 like do you remember, do you even remember? I didn't 214 00:15:36,919 --> 00:15:39,559 even remember that there was a shutdown doing the first 215 00:15:39,559 --> 00:15:41,200 Trump administration of DACA. 216 00:15:41,879 --> 00:15:42,600 Speaker 1: I did two. 217 00:15:44,080 --> 00:15:48,120 Speaker 2: Yeah, I just didn't remember. And even after people told 218 00:15:48,159 --> 00:15:52,000 me the debate some details, I was like, literally, I 219 00:15:52,039 --> 00:15:55,919 have zero recollection of this. I think it's kind of 220 00:15:56,080 --> 00:16:03,360 become just much for common But also it gets you nothing. 221 00:16:04,159 --> 00:16:09,919 Speaker 1: Ever, and yeah, politically speaking, it gets you nothing. Ever, 222 00:16:10,080 --> 00:16:11,480 so why do we continue to do this? 223 00:16:11,559 --> 00:16:14,360 Speaker 2: Economically it gives you nothing. This is not going to 224 00:16:14,399 --> 00:16:17,240 shrink the government, shrink the size of the government. This 225 00:16:17,360 --> 00:16:23,720 is not this is not going to this is not 226 00:16:24,080 --> 00:16:29,000 going to address any of the of the of the 227 00:16:29,039 --> 00:16:34,279 really the dead problems that we have. Uh, it could 228 00:16:34,480 --> 00:16:38,879 make the inflation worse because you know, adding if the 229 00:16:38,919 --> 00:16:44,200 Republican's cave basically what it's doing, it's adding to future 230 00:16:44,279 --> 00:16:49,960 deficits without you know, promising to pay for them ever. Ever, 231 00:16:50,879 --> 00:16:54,200 and you know, if I'm an investor and I'm already 232 00:16:54,240 --> 00:17:00,279 nervous about the trajectory of the fiscal situation in the US, 233 00:17:00,440 --> 00:17:05,559 this only adds to it, right And when so, I mean, 234 00:17:05,599 --> 00:17:10,079 it's not it's there's no there's no upside for anyone. 235 00:17:10,359 --> 00:17:13,519 And and obviously the Democrats would love for the for 236 00:17:13,599 --> 00:17:17,359 the government to to to grow and and and to 237 00:17:17,440 --> 00:17:20,559 be for more spending to happen, but it's not gonna. 238 00:17:20,880 --> 00:17:25,880 It's not gonna, it's not gonna. It's not gonna help 239 00:17:25,920 --> 00:17:28,599 them ultimately with the fact that they have no ideas, 240 00:17:29,400 --> 00:17:33,319 they have no new ideas, They're totally disoriented right now, 241 00:17:34,920 --> 00:17:39,839 and they're, you know, they're their base is demanding that 242 00:17:39,920 --> 00:17:45,319 they took actions like this to to to to show, 243 00:17:45,480 --> 00:17:49,039 you know, the Republicans that they're like basically they're doing 244 00:17:49,079 --> 00:17:51,319 this to show their base that they're doing something, but 245 00:17:51,440 --> 00:17:54,759 they know it's getting them nowhere, and so it's very, 246 00:17:54,880 --> 00:17:55,759 very frustrating. 247 00:17:59,720 --> 00:18:03,920 Speaker 3: A labor force participation disaster. The watched Out on Wall 248 00:18:03,960 --> 00:18:07,240 Street podcast with Chris Markowski. Every day Chris helps unpack 249 00:18:07,279 --> 00:18:09,640 the connection between politics and the economy and how it 250 00:18:09,640 --> 00:18:12,839 affects your wallet. In nineteen fifty, eighty seven percent of 251 00:18:12,880 --> 00:18:16,000 men were in the labor force nineteen eighty seventy eight percent. 252 00:18:16,119 --> 00:18:19,559 Now we're down to just sixty six percent. Think about 253 00:18:19,559 --> 00:18:22,759 that government handouts and giveaways are not helping Whether it's 254 00:18:22,799 --> 00:18:24,960 happening in DC or down on Wall Street. It's affecting 255 00:18:25,000 --> 00:18:27,160 you financially. Be informed. Check out the Watch Doot on 256 00:18:27,240 --> 00:18:30,119 Wall Street podcast with Chris Markowski on Apple, Spotify, or 257 00:18:30,119 --> 00:18:31,359 wherever you get your podcast. 258 00:18:36,359 --> 00:18:41,880 Speaker 1: Yeah, it's frustrating, indeed, and it's particularly frustrating for the 259 00:18:41,960 --> 00:18:45,839 average American who shows up for work every day and 260 00:18:45,960 --> 00:18:49,920 it seems like the people they elect refusing to do 261 00:18:50,039 --> 00:18:55,400 their jobs. Now, you talk about the disorientation. Everybody's disoriented 262 00:18:55,599 --> 00:18:57,519 when it comes to these sorts of things. Even though 263 00:18:57,559 --> 00:19:03,200 we've been over and over these we've seen shut down 264 00:19:03,240 --> 00:19:07,279 after shutdown over the last forty years in this country. 265 00:19:07,440 --> 00:19:10,640 So all of that said, what signals does this send, 266 00:19:11,119 --> 00:19:15,119 the shutdown, this later shutdown send to the markets, to 267 00:19:15,240 --> 00:19:22,359 our debt holders, to other countries. To me, it seems 268 00:19:22,400 --> 00:19:25,480 to suggest that this is a country that can't simply 269 00:19:25,519 --> 00:19:28,039 can't get its fiscal house in order, can't get its 270 00:19:28,039 --> 00:19:28,599 act together. 271 00:19:29,359 --> 00:19:38,839 Speaker 2: Well, so I think it is sending a message that 272 00:19:40,400 --> 00:19:43,559 no one is really responsible. I mean, I think in 273 00:19:43,599 --> 00:19:48,440 this on the shutdown story that the Republicans clearly are 274 00:19:48,480 --> 00:19:54,880 more responsible than the Democrats. They they did their home, 275 00:19:55,039 --> 00:20:01,759 they did their work, they passed, They passed a continuing 276 00:20:02,279 --> 00:20:06,839 resolution in order to be able to go through the 277 00:20:07,480 --> 00:20:15,480 process of finishing, possibly in a bipartisan way, the budget 278 00:20:15,000 --> 00:20:24,400 for twenty twenty six. And there, I guess to the 279 00:20:24,480 --> 00:20:26,960 extent if you're if you and the Republicans are, and 280 00:20:27,000 --> 00:20:29,960 the Democrats are sending the message to investors that they're 281 00:20:30,000 --> 00:20:37,200 not that there's no amount of spending that they that 282 00:20:37,319 --> 00:20:39,519 there's no limit to the amount of spending that they 283 00:20:39,559 --> 00:20:45,640 want without ever having to pay for it. But I 284 00:20:45,680 --> 00:20:49,079 will say that the problem is that the CR maybe 285 00:20:49,200 --> 00:20:54,160 the existence of a CR again, right, even if it 286 00:20:54,240 --> 00:21:00,200 weren't even if it weren't ending in a shutdown. 287 00:21:00,200 --> 00:21:04,480 Speaker 4: Would still mean basically that no one is really actually 288 00:21:04,519 --> 00:21:08,880 willing to do the hard work of reforming entitlement reform 289 00:21:09,359 --> 00:21:13,480 to raise you know, primary deficit primary surpluses. 290 00:21:13,880 --> 00:21:17,720 Speaker 2: I mean, like like, if you look this year alone, 291 00:21:17,799 --> 00:21:22,799 this fiscal year under the Republicans, uh, we and and 292 00:21:22,799 --> 00:21:26,720 and the Democrats, I guess we increase the debt by 293 00:21:26,839 --> 00:21:31,839 two trillion dollars. We are in time of peace. The 294 00:21:31,920 --> 00:21:37,200 economy is booming, the stock market is booming. Uh, inflation 295 00:21:37,880 --> 00:21:41,359 is you know not, I mean, there's still problems with 296 00:21:41,440 --> 00:21:44,160 inflation and and and now it's going back up a 297 00:21:44,200 --> 00:21:46,880 little bit. But for the most part doing this year 298 00:21:47,000 --> 00:21:50,599 where the debt was going up, inflation was more or 299 00:21:50,680 --> 00:21:54,519 less in control. Uh and and and yet we're piling 300 00:21:54,559 --> 00:21:58,519 on debt, piling on debt, and piling on debt, and 301 00:21:58,519 --> 00:22:02,599 and all their willing to do, it seems, is to 302 00:22:02,920 --> 00:22:06,880 actually pass a cr that keeps suspending at the same level. 303 00:22:07,680 --> 00:22:12,759 No one is serious about talking about reforming the drivers 304 00:22:12,799 --> 00:22:16,240 of our debt. No one is serious. I mean, I 305 00:22:16,279 --> 00:22:19,240 know the Republicans try very hard to message on the 306 00:22:19,240 --> 00:22:23,440 fact that they're bringing in a ton of revenue with 307 00:22:23,440 --> 00:22:28,079 with with tariffs and even ignoring the distorative nature of 308 00:22:28,160 --> 00:22:31,000 tariffs and the fact that Americans are paying tariffs. I mean, 309 00:22:31,039 --> 00:22:33,839 it's it's a drop of water in the size of 310 00:22:33,880 --> 00:22:39,279 the debt we have, you know. So I think the 311 00:22:40,240 --> 00:22:45,039 I think if I were an investor, I would I 312 00:22:45,079 --> 00:22:50,759 would kind of start wondering, like, when when is it 313 00:22:50,839 --> 00:22:55,920 going to become risky to land to land to to 314 00:22:56,200 --> 00:22:59,920 the US government? Obviously, the US government is a safe 315 00:23:00,079 --> 00:23:04,359 for bed than most other governments, right because other countries 316 00:23:04,920 --> 00:23:11,359 are in a much worse situation, or they're actually just 317 00:23:11,519 --> 00:23:15,359 like really just dangerous place to invest. But still it's 318 00:23:15,480 --> 00:23:18,680 just not good. The fact that you're not the ugliest 319 00:23:17,759 --> 00:23:22,000 at the beauty pageant doesn't mean you're pretty. And I 320 00:23:22,039 --> 00:23:25,480 think this is becoming probably obvious to a lot of investors. 321 00:23:25,960 --> 00:23:29,519 Speaker 1: And there's a lot of ugliness in this government for sure. 322 00:23:29,519 --> 00:23:33,519 Our guest today is very Nique de Rougie, George Gibbs, 323 00:23:33,640 --> 00:23:37,200 Chair in Political Economy and Senior research fellow with the 324 00:23:37,279 --> 00:23:41,920 Mercadis Center. Topic of course is the shut down stare 325 00:23:41,960 --> 00:23:45,920 down shut down politics, and as we've been talking about, 326 00:23:46,160 --> 00:23:51,119 shut down politics basically are useless and do nothing for 327 00:23:51,279 --> 00:23:56,480 you the tax payer. But maybe I think there's hope, 328 00:23:56,519 --> 00:24:00,519 at least from the political parties that something big happened 329 00:24:00,599 --> 00:24:05,960 this time around. What we are seeing are some threats about, 330 00:24:06,519 --> 00:24:12,079 you know, cutting more government jobs in all of this, 331 00:24:13,039 --> 00:24:16,759 and the Trump administration has been trying to do that right, 332 00:24:16,839 --> 00:24:22,400 sizing this big, bloated government. Will that have any impact 333 00:24:23,680 --> 00:24:27,960 on Democrats that you know, their constituency in part certainly 334 00:24:28,000 --> 00:24:29,319 as the government employees. 335 00:24:29,839 --> 00:24:38,000 Speaker 2: So I thought that the threat by Omb to say, 336 00:24:38,079 --> 00:24:39,960 if you shut down the government, we're going to use 337 00:24:40,000 --> 00:24:44,400 this as as you know, as an opportunity to fire 338 00:24:44,640 --> 00:24:47,599 a lot of work. And let's be honest, most of 339 00:24:47,680 --> 00:24:51,599 these programs that are shut down, right are programs that 340 00:24:51,720 --> 00:24:57,519 the Democrats like, usually not Republicans so much. So it's 341 00:24:57,599 --> 00:25:03,960 it's really it's really hurting the Democrats most. The other 342 00:25:04,000 --> 00:25:09,039 thing is, like most federal employees our Democratic base, so 343 00:25:10,039 --> 00:25:14,079 they're the one who are either working without pay or 344 00:25:14,240 --> 00:25:17,640 not working at all and not being paid. So but 345 00:25:17,759 --> 00:25:21,359 I thought that this threat would actually carry more water. 346 00:25:21,559 --> 00:25:24,880 But in my opinion, it tells you how scared. Basically 347 00:25:25,200 --> 00:25:28,319 a lot of the Democrats are out there extreme base. 348 00:25:30,160 --> 00:25:37,200 But I fear that if the Trump administration goes ahead 349 00:25:37,480 --> 00:25:40,640 was doing this, they're going to get a lot of 350 00:25:40,640 --> 00:25:43,079 the blame. But again, even if they get a lot 351 00:25:43,079 --> 00:25:45,400 of the blame in the short term, is it going 352 00:25:45,440 --> 00:25:48,079 to make a long term political impact. I don't know, 353 00:25:48,480 --> 00:25:51,519 but it is very true that this is this is 354 00:25:51,559 --> 00:25:55,519 an instance where the Trump administration could go ahead and 355 00:25:55,680 --> 00:26:01,599 use this moment to do basically what they wanted to 356 00:26:01,640 --> 00:26:04,680 do all along, and that it seemed that they have 357 00:26:04,799 --> 00:26:07,880 the legal authority to do. Whether it's wise or not 358 00:26:07,920 --> 00:26:09,759 to do it the way they want to do it, 359 00:26:10,119 --> 00:26:11,119 I don't know, but. 360 00:26:13,039 --> 00:26:15,599 Speaker 1: I think it's long past time, of course, and they've 361 00:26:15,640 --> 00:26:20,920 been trying to deal with this, this massive, bloated government 362 00:26:21,519 --> 00:26:26,480 bureaucracy for the entirety of Trump two point zero. So 363 00:26:26,599 --> 00:26:31,079 far they've gotten challenged in all kinds of courts because 364 00:26:31,079 --> 00:26:33,720 of this. The fight continues, but as you say, this 365 00:26:33,920 --> 00:26:38,400 is an opportunity to really cut into the leviathan that 366 00:26:38,640 --> 00:26:47,599 is our federal bureaucracy. Ultimately, who blinks? Do you think 367 00:26:47,799 --> 00:26:50,759 based on the early days of this shutdown. 368 00:26:51,960 --> 00:26:56,599 Speaker 2: I don't know so usually, like I think the last 369 00:26:56,640 --> 00:27:01,839 time there was a shutdown for thirty over thirty days, 370 00:27:01,920 --> 00:27:05,200 right so to pay period. I think that's the maximum 371 00:27:05,279 --> 00:27:08,559 it would go on because people who won't be paid, 372 00:27:08,640 --> 00:27:11,000 they may be able to kind of swing in for 373 00:27:11,440 --> 00:27:16,359 you know, one pay period, but two is becoming harder, 374 00:27:16,519 --> 00:27:20,920 and then three obviously, so the political pressure that exists 375 00:27:20,920 --> 00:27:24,359 already will just be really, really, really intense as we 376 00:27:24,440 --> 00:27:31,240 go on. My fear is that there are a lot 377 00:27:31,279 --> 00:27:42,160 of Republicans who want to extend the Obamacare COVID tax credits, 378 00:27:42,200 --> 00:27:44,799 and that they will put a lot of pressure on 379 00:27:44,960 --> 00:27:50,720 their colleagues to cave on this is this is my fear. 380 00:27:51,240 --> 00:27:55,359 But so I don't think it's going to go much 381 00:27:55,440 --> 00:27:58,400 longer than to pay period. But what do I know, 382 00:27:58,920 --> 00:28:01,720 I don't know, but it's seems it seems that it 383 00:28:01,759 --> 00:28:06,480 would be hard to do much much longer. And it 384 00:28:06,640 --> 00:28:12,079 could be that the Democrats are because are going to 385 00:28:12,079 --> 00:28:14,880 get a lot of pressure because a lot of these workers, 386 00:28:15,200 --> 00:28:17,960 you know, are are going to put pressure on their 387 00:28:18,000 --> 00:28:27,920 Democratic members. But it's also a possibility that Republicans that 388 00:28:28,039 --> 00:28:31,680 are really not good on these Obamacare tax credits are 389 00:28:31,720 --> 00:28:34,319 going to uh are going to are going to get 390 00:28:34,319 --> 00:28:37,160 a cave and put pressure on their colleagues to cave 391 00:28:37,200 --> 00:28:39,039 on this. So it's hard to tell. 392 00:28:40,440 --> 00:28:45,119 Speaker 1: How do you negotiate with a party with people who 393 00:28:45,559 --> 00:28:51,160 hate the President of the United States so much that 394 00:28:51,200 --> 00:28:58,160 they will do anything to try to, you know, at 395 00:28:58,240 --> 00:29:01,160 least give the perception that the as the United States 396 00:29:01,000 --> 00:29:05,200 has lost a battle, and quite frankly, a party that 397 00:29:05,279 --> 00:29:08,680 has lost so many battles over the last few years 398 00:29:08,720 --> 00:29:12,640 in this country because of you know, where they stand, 399 00:29:13,039 --> 00:29:16,400 And how do you negotiate with members of that party, 400 00:29:16,440 --> 00:29:21,480 extreme members of that party that celebrate political assassination. This 401 00:29:21,559 --> 00:29:26,759 is a very very hostile time in America for so 402 00:29:26,799 --> 00:29:27,799 many reasons. 403 00:29:28,480 --> 00:29:34,480 Speaker 2: Yeah, so I don't know, but I think that the 404 00:29:34,599 --> 00:29:41,079 tensions that you are talking about at the scale of 405 00:29:41,119 --> 00:29:49,000 the country maybe strangely less vivid at the scale of Congress. 406 00:29:49,400 --> 00:29:54,799 Not that the Democrats like President Trump any better, or 407 00:29:54,960 --> 00:29:58,880 like their Republican colleagues or counterpart any better, but I 408 00:29:59,039 --> 00:30:06,240 do think that Democrats are not less immune to their 409 00:30:06,319 --> 00:30:12,240 voters pressures when they're the ones suffering from the shutdown. 410 00:30:13,119 --> 00:30:16,759 So I think kind of ultimately it's going to come 411 00:30:16,799 --> 00:30:21,440 down to how much pressure these guys are getting to 412 00:30:21,559 --> 00:30:27,319 either hold firm or cave, and you know, it's going 413 00:30:27,400 --> 00:30:32,480 to be interesting to see how it unfolds. I think 414 00:30:32,799 --> 00:30:37,559 that President Trump seems to have very signal that he's 415 00:30:37,680 --> 00:30:44,960 not going to cave. It looks like the Republicans, at 416 00:30:45,039 --> 00:30:49,920 least a big chunk of them, are really outraged at 417 00:30:49,920 --> 00:30:55,480 the idea of having to cave and give Democrats something 418 00:30:55,519 --> 00:31:01,000 that they find is unacceptable. But again, you know, who 419 00:31:01,079 --> 00:31:04,160 knows how much of their voters are going to put 420 00:31:04,160 --> 00:31:06,400 pressure on them for them to do things that they 421 00:31:06,440 --> 00:31:08,000 don't believe in. I don't know. 422 00:31:08,480 --> 00:31:12,160 Speaker 1: Yeah, well, we've seen so many shutdowns over the years, 423 00:31:12,400 --> 00:31:14,720 and you mentioned it before. I think you're like a 424 00:31:14,720 --> 00:31:18,160 lot of Americans yours truly. I do remember the twenty 425 00:31:18,279 --> 00:31:20,759 nineteen shutdown, but there have been a lot of shutdowns 426 00:31:20,759 --> 00:31:23,119 over the last twenty plus years in this country, and 427 00:31:23,920 --> 00:31:26,480 I don't certainly remember every one of them, but I 428 00:31:26,519 --> 00:31:30,279 remember thinking throughout those, and I remember reporting throughout those 429 00:31:30,839 --> 00:31:35,119 how much does this really impact the delivery of government services? 430 00:31:35,519 --> 00:31:38,200 Because when we say shut down, there's a misnomer. There 431 00:31:38,319 --> 00:31:42,799 a lot of a lot of government services continue to 432 00:31:42,839 --> 00:31:46,480 go on. What is the actual impact of a government shutdown? 433 00:31:47,599 --> 00:31:53,880 Speaker 2: So? Well, the impact is for really the federal workers, right, 434 00:31:53,920 --> 00:31:55,759 I mean they're all the ones who have to go 435 00:31:55,799 --> 00:31:59,359 to work, and they're a significant amount of number, like 436 00:31:59,440 --> 00:32:03,160 people that m be some people at the I r S, 437 00:32:04,000 --> 00:32:06,599 the air traffic controllers have to go to work, t 438 00:32:06,799 --> 00:32:10,240 S A agent, the military, all of these have to 439 00:32:10,279 --> 00:32:13,240 go to work. But they're going to work without being paid, right. 440 00:32:13,279 --> 00:32:17,039 They are essentral workers, right, So they're they're going to work. 441 00:32:17,440 --> 00:32:21,000 And then all the ones who are are being furloughed 442 00:32:21,160 --> 00:32:24,240 and so basically are not are. 443 00:32:24,039 --> 00:32:30,119 Speaker 5: Not getting getting paid, uh and and they're not working 444 00:32:30,440 --> 00:32:33,559 and in this case they may actually face the risk 445 00:32:33,880 --> 00:32:35,400 of losing their jobs. 446 00:32:35,559 --> 00:32:42,200 Speaker 2: Right. There are lots of like the like the like. 447 00:32:42,319 --> 00:32:48,599 For for the American people who are not public employees, uh, 448 00:32:48,720 --> 00:32:52,680 they will, they will, you get there will be fewer 449 00:32:52,720 --> 00:32:55,680 people to answer their calls at the I R s. 450 00:32:55,799 --> 00:33:03,559 There be their museums are closed, public public, public parks 451 00:33:03,599 --> 00:33:07,759 and things like this are closed. But after a while, 452 00:33:08,319 --> 00:33:13,400 even with essential workers like air traffic controllers and border 453 00:33:13,480 --> 00:33:21,440 enforcement and things like this, we may start seeing impact, 454 00:33:21,960 --> 00:33:25,000 you know, relatively rapidly, in part because people don't like 455 00:33:25,160 --> 00:33:30,359 working without pay sure, and so I think in the past, Uh, 456 00:33:30,400 --> 00:33:33,000 it took, it took a little while, but it happened 457 00:33:33,000 --> 00:33:35,599 that you know, even though these guys are supposed to 458 00:33:35,640 --> 00:33:37,279 go to work, they end up saying, you know what, 459 00:33:37,480 --> 00:33:42,759 I'm sick or I can't go to work for whatever reason. 460 00:33:43,279 --> 00:33:45,200 And then and then you see it. 461 00:33:46,599 --> 00:33:51,000 Speaker 1: Have we learned over time and has it been somewhat 462 00:33:51,160 --> 00:33:56,160 frightening to the entranched bureaucrats that during government shutdowns, now 463 00:33:56,200 --> 00:33:59,640 there are things that that hurt, slowed down, whatever, But 464 00:33:59,680 --> 00:34:03,119 we learn at least at some level that we don't 465 00:34:03,720 --> 00:34:11,960 need this big of a federal bureaucracy. Does that Does 466 00:34:12,000 --> 00:34:14,320 that message ever seep through to anybody? 467 00:34:14,639 --> 00:34:17,719 Speaker 2: I don't think so. I really don't think so, Okay, 468 00:34:18,679 --> 00:34:22,880 I don't think so and and and one of the 469 00:34:22,920 --> 00:34:28,039 reasons is because it's not clear, right, there's no incentives 470 00:34:28,079 --> 00:34:32,280 within government to be more productive. There's no incentives to 471 00:34:32,400 --> 00:34:37,360 do more with less, right, there's only incentives to add 472 00:34:37,400 --> 00:34:41,360 more workers because like the text payers, you know, they're 473 00:34:41,360 --> 00:34:47,920 not at the negotiation table, so so this and so, 474 00:34:48,480 --> 00:34:52,000 they're not a lot of these agencies are not. They're 475 00:34:52,000 --> 00:34:56,719 not working, they're not. They're not sending the checks where 476 00:34:56,760 --> 00:35:00,000 they need to be sent, they're not. But I don't 477 00:35:00,079 --> 00:35:04,280 don't I don't think that there's any like we would 478 00:35:04,320 --> 00:35:07,519 have we would have seen it, considering how many government 479 00:35:07,559 --> 00:35:11,000 shutdowns we've had, you know, in the last fifty years. 480 00:35:11,800 --> 00:35:14,000 I think the only time where we didn't have a 481 00:35:14,039 --> 00:35:19,559 government shutdown was during the first Bush administration. I think 482 00:35:19,599 --> 00:35:22,840 the father like the one right after a President Reagan 483 00:35:23,400 --> 00:35:28,360 and then under President Biden. So I think these were 484 00:35:28,400 --> 00:35:31,719 the only two. And yet it's not as if we've 485 00:35:31,760 --> 00:35:35,280 seen anyone say, you know, the lesson learned is that actually, 486 00:35:35,719 --> 00:35:38,400 you know, we can do so much more with fewer people. 487 00:35:38,880 --> 00:35:41,639 That's not that's these are not the incentives that exist 488 00:35:41,760 --> 00:35:44,239 in the private sector in the public sector. They're only 489 00:35:44,320 --> 00:35:48,079 incentives that exist in the public in a private sector, Yeah. 490 00:35:47,960 --> 00:35:50,039 Speaker 1: No, I know, I think it is still true. We 491 00:35:50,519 --> 00:35:57,199 could still get by without without this massive, you know, 492 00:35:57,880 --> 00:36:01,760 workforce that we see in the federal government. But we've 493 00:36:01,800 --> 00:36:07,920 seen as you mentioned, you know, the Biden administration, the 494 00:36:07,960 --> 00:36:13,199 first Bush George H. W. Bush during his administration, no shutdowns, 495 00:36:13,239 --> 00:36:16,840 but still in those and I can speak clearly for 496 00:36:16,920 --> 00:36:23,199 the previous four years, constant battles, constant brinksmanship, you know, 497 00:36:23,480 --> 00:36:28,960 the showdown political theater that constantly goes on even if 498 00:36:29,000 --> 00:36:38,800 there isn't a showdown. Does that does that ultimately cost 499 00:36:39,360 --> 00:36:44,760 America in different areas for all of this showdown politics? 500 00:36:45,119 --> 00:36:48,519 Speaker 2: Yeah, so what I've read, Well, so I think this 501 00:36:48,719 --> 00:36:51,639 could trit this. This is one of the problems with 502 00:36:51,679 --> 00:36:55,119 the moments, Like the moment is more you get more 503 00:36:55,239 --> 00:37:00,800 points for being a creator of chaos than for being 504 00:37:01,280 --> 00:37:06,199 someone who actually delivers good government service services, and and 505 00:37:07,119 --> 00:37:12,119 so I think that's that's the problem. So and this again, 506 00:37:12,239 --> 00:37:18,320 remember I think that this government, this particular government shut 507 00:37:18,360 --> 00:37:25,480 down is a product of the fact that Democratic voters 508 00:37:26,559 --> 00:37:32,079 really want their members to stick it up to the 509 00:37:32,199 --> 00:37:38,000 Republicans do something anything, that's something, so let's do it right. 510 00:37:39,079 --> 00:37:44,760 It's not, it's not it's it's not meant to even be, 511 00:37:45,199 --> 00:37:48,000 you know, super productive. It's meant most more to be 512 00:37:48,280 --> 00:37:52,440 to cause chaos, because these guys really want chaos, even 513 00:37:52,480 --> 00:37:56,039 though I know most of these members probably know that 514 00:37:56,119 --> 00:37:57,719 this is totally pointless. 515 00:37:58,599 --> 00:38:01,800 Speaker 1: So what do they do aultimately? Because that continues to 516 00:38:01,840 --> 00:38:05,519 be a growing problem for the Democratic Party. 517 00:38:05,679 --> 00:38:10,079 Speaker 2: I agree, but I don't know. I don't know how 518 00:38:10,119 --> 00:38:13,400 you get out of this, right, it's I think you 519 00:38:13,480 --> 00:38:16,800 get out of this by So it's kind of interesting 520 00:38:17,039 --> 00:38:23,679 about three Democrats in the Senate voted alongside Republicans. I 521 00:38:23,760 --> 00:38:27,920 wonder how much time it will take to get I 522 00:38:27,960 --> 00:38:31,000 guess we need their fifty three in the Senate, so 523 00:38:31,039 --> 00:38:35,000 it was fifty six, you need sixty, right, so they 524 00:38:35,039 --> 00:38:40,639 need to pill another four Democrats. I think my Calcolici 525 00:38:40,880 --> 00:38:46,079 is correct, but it's around there. So I don't know 526 00:38:46,119 --> 00:38:50,360 how how you get those people to break ranks with 527 00:38:50,440 --> 00:38:56,039 their colleagues. I don't know. But what I've read is 528 00:38:56,039 --> 00:39:05,199 that actually, unfortunately for taxpayers and for future generations, shutdowns 529 00:39:05,360 --> 00:39:10,280 cost more than not shutting down, So because you have 530 00:39:10,320 --> 00:39:12,519 to catch up, I don't know if they pay interest. 531 00:39:12,719 --> 00:39:13,119 Speaker 1: They do. 532 00:39:13,719 --> 00:39:17,880 Speaker 2: Yeah, So it's basically this is adding to the debt. 533 00:39:18,960 --> 00:39:23,920 This is adding to the debt. The act of shutdown 534 00:39:24,079 --> 00:39:27,519 itself is adding to the debt. And that's just, you know, 535 00:39:27,880 --> 00:39:29,000 that's really unfair. 536 00:39:30,280 --> 00:39:33,079 Speaker 1: It is unfair. As I said at the outset of 537 00:39:33,119 --> 00:39:37,559 our conversation, the people who ultimately get screwed to the taxpayers, 538 00:39:37,639 --> 00:39:40,760 the people who are actually paying taxes. And let's face it, 539 00:39:40,800 --> 00:39:44,199 what the Democrats are arguing for where a lot of 540 00:39:44,239 --> 00:39:49,239 people who don't pay taxes, including some people who are 541 00:39:49,280 --> 00:39:54,400 here illegally, who are not US citizens. And that is 542 00:39:54,960 --> 00:39:58,320 a battle that is being fought right now. Final closing 543 00:39:58,480 --> 00:40:04,320 question for you, how do Republicans get through the message 544 00:40:04,400 --> 00:40:07,360 that this shutdown is really on the Democrats when you 545 00:40:07,480 --> 00:40:13,239 have a corporate media that is sending the exact opposite 546 00:40:13,320 --> 00:40:15,000 message over and over again. 547 00:40:15,400 --> 00:40:17,440 Speaker 2: I think I think they're doing the right thing. I 548 00:40:17,480 --> 00:40:22,119 see a lot of members doing videos on Instagram and 549 00:40:22,280 --> 00:40:27,199 talking to their constituents and explaining they need to explain 550 00:40:27,880 --> 00:40:35,199 what the COVID expending expended tax credits do and and 551 00:40:35,360 --> 00:40:38,159 tell them this is just really unfair. We're not in 552 00:40:38,239 --> 00:40:42,400 an emergency. We're not We're not anymore in the pandemic, 553 00:40:42,960 --> 00:40:48,719 these are subsidizing, These are subsidizing high income tax payers. 554 00:40:48,760 --> 00:40:52,920 There there and explaining, and I see them actually do 555 00:40:53,000 --> 00:40:56,960 a very good job at this. I think. I think 556 00:41:00,599 --> 00:41:03,599 it's it's a hard it's a hard thing to do, 557 00:41:04,119 --> 00:41:07,039 and I worry that the hardest part of their job 558 00:41:07,199 --> 00:41:15,079 is to convince their their their colleagues, their Republicans colleagues, 559 00:41:15,199 --> 00:41:19,639 not to cave, not to cave on on the COVID subsidies, 560 00:41:20,159 --> 00:41:25,719 the Obamacare subsidies, and on Medicare, Medicaid for for on 561 00:41:25,760 --> 00:41:29,920 the on the Medicaid reforms. Uh So, it's like they 562 00:41:29,960 --> 00:41:33,920 have they have a lot of work to do, but 563 00:41:34,800 --> 00:41:37,000 I think they're doing a pretty good job. 564 00:41:38,280 --> 00:41:42,159 Speaker 1: Well, if it's any consolation, Americans can have faith in 565 00:41:42,199 --> 00:41:47,360 the knowledge that all of this is really ultimately for nothing. 566 00:41:47,800 --> 00:41:55,039 It's just useless, useless politics, over and over again. Eventually, 567 00:41:55,119 --> 00:41:57,599 something's going to have to give. Thanks to my guest today, 568 00:41:58,480 --> 00:42:03,280 ver Anique de Rougie, George Gibbs, Chair in Political Economy 569 00:42:03,400 --> 00:42:06,639 and Senior research fellow with the Mercada Center, you've been 570 00:42:06,679 --> 00:42:09,360 listening to another edition of the Federalist Radio Hour. I'm 571 00:42:09,400 --> 00:42:13,039 Matt Kittle's Senior Elections correspondent at the Federalist. We'll be 572 00:42:13,119 --> 00:42:17,159 back soon with more. Until then, stay lovers of freedom 573 00:42:17,239 --> 00:42:18,559 and anxious for the fray. 574 00:42:25,400 --> 00:42:31,000 Speaker 2: I heard the fame, voice, the reason, and then it 575 00:42:31,159 --> 00:42:36,559 faded away.