Speaker 1: He's up, Fellasichos. I am Dan Valley coming at you
with another twenty twenty five twenty twenty six NBA season
look ahead. We're onto the Indiana Pacers, So you know
what that means. The goat, the creator, the founder, the CEO,
the czar of basketball. She wrote, Caitlyn Cooper follow her
on the socials if you don't already, which would be
weird if you didn't. At C two underscore Cooper on
Twitter or X whatever you want to call it, spelled
exactly as it sounds. She's on Blue Sky as well,
at Caitlyn May Cooper c Ai t l y n
May as an m A y Cooper spelled exactly as
it sounds. Caitlyn, thank you so much for coming back.
I really appreciate. I wasn't sure if you were gonna
have another podcast to record with Rick Carlisle or something,
so I'm glad that we were able to work it out.
How the heck are you doing?
Speaker 2: I'm doing well. I have now just noticed that you
are wearing a basketball, she wrote, t S and I
am wearing my hard word. Oh look at that for
I feel like this is a jersey swap.
Speaker 1: Man jersey swaps are fun. I've never done a jersey swap,
so this is a big moment for me. So thank
you for the SICKO shirt. Love it. Thank you so
much for that. I have to begin here to talk
about last season because the paces That Pacers team was
absolutely wild and I said some pretty like inflammatory things
about them before they turned things around. But was there
a moment for you, like throughout the course of the
season where you it kind of resonated with you, like, oh,
this team is has it? Not that they were necessarily
going to go to the finals, but like, oh, this
team is really really special.
Speaker 2: I mean, I think that there was a lot of
inflection points that just kept building. So when Andrew and
Aaron and Ben Shepherd all returned to the lineup, they
got their point of attack defenders back. That was really
when the defense started taking a turn. Along with the
fact that I've told everybody that the defense improved when
the offense got better. Mar Haliburton started looking more like
Tyrese Haliburton, and they were taking better care of the
ball and they were making more shots that allowed them
to set their pressure. They had their better point of
attack defenders back healthy in the lineup. That all culminated.
Pascal Siakam, which I'm sure we'll get too later, made
a really big leap for them within their defensive system,
and how important he was as a defender. All those
things were coalescing. And then just like at an individual
game level, I remembered when they played the two game
mini series in Cleveland and tyree didn't play the second
half of the first game, and Andrew and Ben Sheppard
were starting the second half and just applying a ton
of pressure against Darius Garland and Donovan Mitchell, and they
ended up winning that game, snapping Cleveland's winning streak. And
then not too long after that, they played Boston and
Tyresee tied his career high for points in the paint
and he was just showing a lot of relentlessness as
a driver. And some of that, of course, is tied
to the way that Boston prefers to run people off
the line and really game the variants and how many
threes they take. But it was a good showing from
Tyreese in terms of his overall healthiness and what he
ended up showing later on the playoffs with his more
willingness to attacks, which is in that way and then
in March, they just had their own individual March madness
right where they just kept finding different ways to win games,
but also with very different heroes on a number of nights.
So I do tell everybody that. Strangely enough, the moment
where I was very convinced they were going to the
NBA Finals wasn't even a game that they played in.
It was when the Knicks played the Celtics, the game
that they lost after Jason Tatum had porn had blown
his achilles. Okay, the way that Boston had to play
without Jason Tatum, they're running a lot of stacking a
lot of actions together and running stack pick and rolls,
and the Knicks that was kind of the first that
they were switching heavily. They hadn't done that a lot
throughout the regular season, and it was very evident that,
like a lot of times, you don't want to be
doing something for the first time in the playoffs. And
I thought to myself, if they're struggling to guard that
now without Tatum, they're really going to struggle to guard
the Pacers. And it turned out that they did, and
the Pacers ended up going to the NBA Finals. So
I think it was all those little things slowly but
surely build up. I was like, this is going somewhere.
Plus I'm sure if people followed in the second half
of the season, I had a couple of tweets where
I was like, they're scoring more points against per possession
against Cleveland, Boston, and OKAC than they were against the
lottery teams. They were playing really poorly against lottery teams
and that was depressing some of what their offensive, defensive,
and overall net rating was. So I was like, look
at what they're doing against the contenders. This could be
you know, they could be a dark horse here headed
into the playoffs.
Speaker 1: I think the moment for me was, and it was late,
was it was the Timberwolves game Tyrese Haliburton hadn't played,
was a back injury, whatever he had, and it was
just the Obie top and game winner, and it was
either like precursor by or the game that followed is
where they pressured was it the bulls or the nets?
And they won that game as well, and it was
just like it just felt like this team was going
to go somewhere, and which was wild to think because
around Thanksgiving, like early December, thinking of where they were
and you know, blowhards like me sounding the alarm and
declaring this team of failure and then for them to
turn around to that extent, and it was transcending at
that point Tyre's Halbert and being Tyre's Haliburton because he
wasn't even playing for them during that mini stretch. So
that team was fun as hell to watch, and I
think one of the more even though they had a
player like Tyre's Halbert and a player like Pascal Siakam,
they were like one of the more disarming title contenders
or finalists, right, Like, this just wasn't a team even
when they were really like putting it together. I guess
from my perspective that you would have picked and said, yeah,
they're gonna like they're gonna go through the Eastern Conference
and make it to the finals.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, like I said, it was just like
I had to go back and watch some of those
games from November for something that I was working on,
and it looked like a completely different team, like when
you look at their defensive cohesiveness ahead of that break
in the nd season tournament, which I actually think was
kind of another inflection point really because they had four
straight days of practice. They were getting guys back. I
think that allowed them to really regear what they were doing.
But they don't even look like the same team when
you go, I can watch that film.
Speaker 1: What so the defense, like the pressure of it all,
what they were doing. And you've even cited about how
they had the highest pickup point in the average pickup
point in the NBA last season, aside from like the
pressure and aside from or maybe if it was just this,
like having a healthy Nie Smith, having a healthy Andrew
nem Hard, what else went into them? Just they had
pop eight defense for like sixty percent of the season
basically were two almost two third. It was fifty seven
games I think where they were the eighth in defense.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I didn't see that coming, if I'm being completely honest,
like I wasn't. I wasn't super bullish on that degree
of a leap happening. I think, like I said, it
was a multitude of things. You talk about the pressure,
they actually had the highest average pickup point in the
playoffs the last two years and second spectrums like twelve
year database. So they kind of set a trend league
wide where last year the league as a whole in
the regular season had the highest average pickup point, where
a lot more teams are doing this now, So that's
certainly part of it. But I mentioned it a little bit.
I think Pascal Siakam was quietly a really big piece
of it, because if you watch some of the games
after he was traded, I had some degree of concern.
I mean, I think he had to adapt certainly to
the conditioning of it all and the grueling style of
the pay that the Pacers play on both into the floor.
But he also like the scheme is just so different
from what he would have been doing under Nick Nurse
to what he was doing with the Pacers, and the
fact that he had a full training camp. I think
sometimes I can be a cliche, but I think it
really did make a difference. And when you think about it,
like last year, two years ago in the Eastern Conference
Finals when they played Boston, and that when Tyrese was out,
they had Ben Shepherd at the point of attack, and
Andrew and Aaron regarding Tatum and Brown and the in
game three and four, and now to watch him in
this playoffs and he's guarding Karl Anthony Towns in a
critical Game six, he guarded Giannis for an entire series,
like he was somebody that you could put on top wings.
But where he was really most valuable was the fact
that he was oftentimes offering operating as a buffer in
the gaps, a guardrail behind pick and rolls. Like I
told people this after Myles Turner made his decision to
go to Milwaukee, that when Miles was the screener defender
and Pascal was on the floor, if they had a
top five pick and roll defense equivalent. See when Pascal
was off the floor, when Miles was a screener defender,
they had a bottom five pick and roll defense equivalent.
Sy So, I think a lot of times people think
that Miles was propping up the defense. And this isn't
me trying to diminish him. It's just speaking to the
importance of Siakam and also somewhat the difference between Siakam
and Obi Top and his defenders at the floor. But
I think Siaka made a really big difference. Nemhart I've
been saying for quite some time as the best defender
on the roster. He came back even better than ever
from that injury. Was literally defending in an all NBA level,
if not for the fact that he didn't play in
enough games and have enough minutes to get some consideration there.
He just has so many quirks and nuances to his game.
And then quietly Tyresee made some improvements. He's still the
fifth best defender in the starting lineup for sure, but
they were able to switch a little bit more with
him instead of always having to do, you know, a
soft show or a hedge. And then they they did
more peel switching, which allows him to you know, I
if he gets beat as the on ball defender, he
peels off to the perimeter, and he's so good at
blocking threes that actually kind of meshed to his style.
And they also gave him quite a bit of leeway
to be helping and playing free safety because he does
have a knack for sticking his arms in passing lanes,
so he was allowed to be more active, which I
think showed some of his strengths a little bit more.
In addition to they didn't play zone a lot, but
sometimes they would play zone and they'd put him at
the bottom in case he got hunted, like multiple possessions
in a row. So he quietly made some improvements and
then like another big reason the defense got better because
they just stopped turning the ball over as much. Like
it's unprecedented that they passed the ball as much as
they did while turning it over so little, being top
five and turnover eight, so that, like I said, that
has like a cyclical effect where if they don't turn
the ball over, it's very hard when you're playing at
a fast pace to hit the brakes and get back
if you commit a live ball turnover, so they weren't
having to do that. And then if you're making more shots,
you get to set that pressure. So I think all
those were really big contributing factors and what they were
doing and why they were able to Like, like I said,
I watched every game they played last year, and I
didn't think that they would be able to make the
leap into being a top ten defense.
Speaker 1: I have so many follow up questions, but I really
want to ask you what was it like covering this team,
like during the NBA Finals even throughout that run, and
what you know, you've talked a lot about, like things
happening on the court, Like what really sticks with you
as you're you know, moving forward, like with this team's
direct excuse me, direction, from that run.
Speaker 2: Yeah. I mean if you had asked me at this
time last year we did a look ahead, if I
thought I'd be at the NBA Finals covering a basketball game,
I would have to be honest enough to say no
at that point in time. I think that the thing
that stands out to me the most is the degree
to which they were problem solvers. And I think that
the overall play style of the Pacers definitely is a
reflection of who Tyres is a player, perhaps more than
any other team in the NBA, minus maybe Jokic and
the Denver Nuggets. But when you think about their identity
as a team, I think a lot of that speaks
to Pascal Siakam's trajectory of his entire career. He's always
been a tinkerer, and that's kind of what the Pacers
were as a team. Like even if you look at
the seven game series against the Thunder, look how many
times their defense changed just in that game, Like they
started out next thing against Shay when the Thunder countered by,
Like we're gonna play Hartenstein Moore because the Pacers pressure.
We need a better screener to be getting Shay and
Jalen longer runways to the rim. Then the Pacers were like,
in Game six, well, we're gonna surprisingly pull that pressure back.
We're gonna have Andrew pick up at half court instead
of three quarter court, partly to preserve him because they
knew that and that Tyres was dealing with the calf injury,
but also for the element surprise of it all. And
then they ratcheted up the pressure and the half court
and showed Shay more double teams than he had seen
at any point in time in the playoffs. So like,
those are very big defensive adjustments that they were making
throughout that game, and they obviously also made a lot
of offensive adjustments, but they saved like one big thing
on the defensive end in each one of those series
that made a really big difference. So I think that
the things that stand out to me that I'm gonna
remember the most is the degree of problem solving that
they did, and then also the degree with which that
they were really a team playing as a team, and
we're so willing to get out of each other's way.
Like I'm sure the enduring possession that I'm going to
remember most from that run was in overtime of Game
one against the Knicks sideline out of bounds play, Tyres
and Siakam end up finishing the possession just standing on
the logo effectively as decoys. And it's a three man
action between Andrew Nemhart, Obi Top and Aaron E. Smith,
And like, how many teams, how many stars do you
know who would be like, Yeah, what's best for the
team right now is for me to stand out of
the way in the situation two of them, and we're
gonna get and we're gonna get Obi Top and a
dunk out of it in overtime and get a road win.
So like, those are the things that I'm gonna definitely
remember the most about that team.
Speaker 1: Looking ahead the Tyres, Haliburt and Achilles injury, Is there
anything about the way he and the Pacers play that
concerns you about what he could look like upon return
or maybe even gives you a vote of confidence as
to what he could look like when he returns, because
this is still considered a serious injury. There's you know,
we have the success story of Kevin Durant kind of
doing it later in his career. When you're playing as
this randomized offense, playing at these really high like fast
clips as the Pacers are. Is there any concern about
what he then looks like in general in a vacuum
for himself, but also just in the context of how
the Pacers want to play with him.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, I'm not a doctor, so I can't
speak with full confidence, but what I would say there
is he and Kevin, if they're similar at all, it
would just be that they both attack with their jump shot,
like there are more go to movies to attack with
their jump shot rather than with change of speed necessarily
as drivers. So there's that. But also, like to me,
what makes Tyrese the most special is the fact that
even if he comes back from this Achilles' injury, the
wheels in his head are still going to turn his
fast even if his actual wheels aren't turning his fast
in terms of speed. So his quick decision making is
really differentiates him as a point guard. And I think
that's still definitely going to be there. And then I
think it also helps that Nemhor did the degree of
ball handling that he did throughout all of last season.
You know, the Pacers add so much randomness and variation
by throwing as many advanced passes as they do especially
in transition, and that really stems from Tyreese. But because
he's so good at it, teams oftentimes pick him full
court up full court to prevent the hit ahead passes,
So Andrew and TJ do a lot of ball handling.
Tyree's had to get used to learning how to play
off the ball, learn how to dominate as a shooting guard.
So if he does come back, because people will likely
remember and notice that in games five, six, and seven,
right up until that possession when it happened, Andrew was
doing a lot more of the turning the ball down hill.
They weren't having Tyree shove off and turn outlet passes
the other way that much in those games. So the
fact that he's kind of already used to doing that,
that if he did come back a more limited version
of himself, those things bode well in his favor, as
well as the fact that, again I'm not trying to
turn this into speaking poorly of Miles after the fact
and what decision he made, but like I was already
kind of leaning toward the fact that they might need
to make a change at the center position in the
long term, because it's very obvious the tyres enhanced Miles.
It wasn't always obvious the way that Miles enhanced Tyrese,
and you could see that in the OKAC series. Like
certainly would have helped if Miles made some more of
the threes that he took, But they needed to run
more handoffs. They needed better screencraft because of the way
okayc sets their defense because Tyrese himself is not a
super physical guard, despite the fact that he is a
bigger guard, So to beat their help rotations, the handoffs
and playing tyres into speed is what they needed to do,
and yet they weren't really getting the points per chance
yield that they needed to when they went to more
handoffs when Miles was running them. He just still doesn't
really have the craft with that to create advantages. There
is a way to create advantages with handoffs. And then
also just the fact that he wasn't getting into the
paint anymore often when Miles was on the floor than
when he was off. It was still a low volume,
so it wasn't like the spread shooting was opening up
driving lanes against that type of you know, Okay see
Boa constrictor like defense. So if they do make a
change there and it's a big who has a little
bit better screencraft. And again, if Tyree were to come
back more limited, I think that that would help him
as well. So those are kind of the main things
that I would think about there. But I'm sure if
you had an injury expert on here, they might completely
refute what I just said, or might have a lot
better ideas of what that would look like for him
when he comes back.
Speaker 1: Look, I can't say for certain, you don't have an MD.
I don't know. I don't know for sure. The Miles
Turner stuff. The obligatory question I have to answer. You
mentioned that you had been thinking, okay, maybe they would
need to go in a different direction at some point.
Do you think that factored into this process at all
this season? Was it as the Pacers were caught off guard,
as it seems like reports are led to believe, because
it definitely doesn't seem like what was the plan was to
move on from him this summer. But do you think
what you just said where maybe they were waiting those
potential changes over the long term against when they were
deciding whether to pay him. Especially again, it's so hard
to figure out what this would have looked like if
Tyre's Haliburton were healthy, would they have been more likely
to give him more money at that point if they
were considering that maybe he's not the right center for
the future. So just what do you kind of make
of that entire process?
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, if you go back clear to the
Eastern Conference Finals a year ago, and this isn't me
speaking for them, it's me speaking for me. I thought
he was very underwhelming against the series against Boston as well,
for some of the same reasons. Despite the fact that
okayc in Boston defense so differently, the fact that both
are willing to play smaller yet with some stocky forwards
that could push him into the ten foot range, what
he did against mismatches and cross matches in both series,
the fact that he had more turnovers than made threes
in those series. The rebounding of it all. The team
in the NBA Finals this year that had more offensive
rebounds went six and one in the NBA Finals. And
while while like the possession war is becoming more important
than ever, I mean I use the phrase a lot,
the basketball is the most important part about it. I mean,
you're looking like not to bring Tyres into it again,
but like sometimes for the Pacers, the rebounding is as
important because they've gained that by the fact that they
limit turnovers so much with ball security. We'll see how
that goes if Tyres isn't playing this year and what
he's again, what he's like when he comes back. But
like in those ways, the rebounding does become more important.
And certainly that's not all on Miles in the finals,
but that's not his strongest suit either. So when they
got to the trade deadline, though, I was on the
opposite side of the fence because I was like, this
is the best this team has ever played, and the
Tyres era, like, you don't have a starting center on
this roster to replace him. You've already like tried a
million third string centers just in order to have backup health,
and you can't do it midway through the year, like
you have to play this out. And then obviously, like
you said, I do think that both achilles injuries had
a major impact on the move, right, because I don't
think Milwaukee does that move if Dame doesn't blow his achilles,
I doubt, Like I don't think you're waiving and stretching
Damian Lillard if he doesn't blow his achilles and Tyres does.
And while that might not have factored completely into what
number the Pacers offered Miles, I think it. I'm certainly
it probably weighed on both sides to an extent, because
it might have been possible that Miles was like, you know,
I'm a free agent and I want to be able
to remain, as he said, like remain more competitive. Maybe
he thought saw a better path with that with Yannish
right now in the here and now. That remains to
be seen for me personally, but it's possible that might
have been in consideration, in addition to the fact that
they gave him a trade kicker and a fairly you know,
more lucrative contract. I do think that the Pacers were
surprised by it, but obviously he was their free agent,
so they had more time to be negotiating with him.
But I think, like, if you were really really motivated,
they're not going to go into the second apron to
resign Myles Turner. They said they were willing to go
into the tax to a limit to sign Miles Turner.
But like I said, for me personally, I think that
there was still reason to make a change. In the
fact that Tyres is going to be out affords them
the opportunity to take perhaps a step backward now with
the option that they have to maybe take a bigger
step forward later on when Tyre's comes back, depending upon
how they're able to finagle this. Although I will say
I don't think it was part of the plan, nor
do I think it's ideal that he walked for nothing,
Like we might be looking at this differently if they
had been able to find a sign and trade opportunity
with another team. Certainly not great that a player that
you've had for ten years ended up just walking after
he had been in trade rumors for I don't know,
seventy five percent of that time.
Speaker 1: It feels like from the moment he was drafted, he's
just been in trade rumors. So and it wasn't even
a trade that got him. He left him free agency.
Look at that.
Speaker 2: Uh.
Speaker 1: You talked with Rick Kyle Ile on your podcast. You've
written about how when people talk about five out with
the Pacers, there's also a lot of they work from
like the inside and then go back out. How does
that change or does it do they lean into something
like that? Further that that Miles Turner isn't here.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean there's a lot of different ways they
can look at it. When I've written about it in
my post, they will oftentimes, like especially with Siakam and
Obi Toppin, they'll play four out early looking for those
high seals in transition like Siakam or Ob getting leakouts.
The two of them will seal on the underside to
create a really big pocket for those hit ahead passes.
If that's not there, then they prefer to go to
a five out alignment. Then they might run spread, pick
and roll, and then if they're still playing at the
end of the clock. A lot of times you might
see those guys duck in or try to create like
a gore tot or a seal screen opportunity so that
the guard can get to the basket. They carp open
driving lanes. That's just a very basic way of looking
at it. But like if Isaiah Jackson were to be
the starting five, I'm not sure if that would be
the most ideal for Pascal Siakam. I do think that
there was benefits to having a spread five out on
the floor for him personally, especially with some of the
ways that they feed him in the post. But if
Isaiah's at the top of the key, there can still
be benefits to like let's run a handoff and it's
actually advantageous that your guys playing off of you, and
now maybe we can set up screening angles and handoffs
and our guys have space to get downhill. There's more teams,
like if you look around at Cleveland some things that
they do with and mobile, if you look at the
Raptors with Yaka Perle, certainly Utah with Walker Kessler, like
more teams are playing through the skip pass and actually
throwing skip passes to their non shooting bigs in the
opposite corner, so that then they can play into uphill
handoffs or get two on one situations with those non shooters,
or perhaps look at grenade options, so that would be
another thing. And then if you look at teams like
Atlanta Charlotte in the past, like playing Clint Capel at
the slot, playing Nick Richards at the slot, that's a
longer rotation. And sometimes if you think about it in transition,
like if you run Isaiah to the slot, if a
rim run is an opportunity, you use the guard as
an inbounder, then you don't have a big at the
rim to protect the rim, like, because you have to
remember like the help responsibilities here. You can't just stand
in the lane to infinity, like there's a two nine rule.
You can be in there for two point nine seconds,
you have to get out. If Isaiah's up at the slot,
then that makes a longer rotation to the rim than
from the top of the key or from the corner.
So there's some different stuff that they can toy around with.
I'll be interest to see how that looks. I think
that they can do many of the same things in
terms of like how they get a high low plass
to Pascal if it's Jayhoff at the top of the key.
How they like to put a guard in the dunker
spot with like Miles in the strongside corner. I think
they can do that with Jayhoff if they want to,
And then they can do it with Obi toppin too,
because they like to play five out with Obi at
the five sometimes, so they'll have options. I don't think
any of those guys can do everything that Miles could do.
They're gonna have to make a choice on which one
of the things that Miles could do that they need
at the given moment, which is why they're kind of
charming this as center by committee, if that makes sense.
Speaker 1: Is there any concern about I think part of what
made Isaiah Jackson so intriguing leading into last season is
look at the way he runs the floor. There's some
stuff that he's done, like on the ball going downhill,
which is fun, but has some spring really malleable on
the defensive end coming back from Achilles' injury. With that
to where I just asked the question about, Again, I'm
not a doctor, but it feels like the style that
Tyre's Halberton plays or what his game is really rooted in,
may not be as impacted as much of what Isaiah
Jackson and his skill set is rooted in coming back
from that Achilles injury.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I would agree. I mean most of Isaiah's games
build around vertical pop rim running, his rangy mobile defense,
the fact that if you want to run like a press,
he can be out there and cover a lot of
ground as you mentioned, so a lot of that, like
we said, has built a lot more around athleticism. So
in a lot of ways, he to this point has
kind of been like a small ball center, but more
so a center who is just small, and if you
look at him during since he's been out with the achilles,
there's been a purposeful effort for him to add weight
and to add muscle. So that makes me think that
maybe he and the Pacers are kind of anticipating that
if there is any type of loss of athleticism, will
it will benefit him to be more physical and be
stronger underneath the basket as well. So we'll see how
that pans out. I mean, you know, offseason clips mean everything,
as you know, and Siakam has shared like a nineteen
minute clip of highlights and Isaiah did jump up and
catch some lobs, so clearly he's the exact same plan. Yeah,
I think he did on Twitter the other day. I
think he posted like a nineteen minute video package of
them at his house in Orlando.
Speaker 1: Wow, all right, I say Jackson for most improved Player.
Then it's been confirmed, Jay Huff. The streets are saying
that he is basically Miles Turner at one eleventh of
the cost. Can you explain to all of us why
that's just simply My real question on this is I
find Jay have to be a very interesting player, and
you could play around with the permanent stats he's never
had even last year, this whole he was a member
of the Grizzlies rotation, I think needs to be put
in air quotes just because he was out of the
rotation at one like once they were healthy. Where do
you think they're gonna feel when you're looking specifically at
what would be construed those five out looks with with
a like him being the five, where do you think
they're going to feel the biggest difference going from Miles
Turner to him in those minutes?
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean think the answer would probably be different
in a season with Tyreese versus the season without Tyrese,
because when Tyrese is playing, I think that you're going
to see a difference in the fact that, like if
Tyrese gets blitzed, Miles turn is very comfortable short rolling
to the nail area and shooting from mid range into
that open space. He really is a three level scorer
in a lot of ways. So between he and Pascal
and Tyrese, you typically had a way, especially at least
during the regular season when you're not deeper in the playoffs,
to counter for almost any pick and roll covers that
you came across. I looked, and maybe Jayhoff has some
latent mid range abilities that we're going to see. And
not that the Pacers lean on the midrange a lot,
but I think he's taken like ten shots in his
career from mid range, whereas Miles last year was like
shot forty of seventy from that area. And certainly, if
you get zoned some which the Pacers were a team
that gets zoned a lot, you could throw it to
Miles in the middle and he can make that shot
as well without tyrese. Another thing is that Memphis and
Indiana just played so differently from each other. I mean,
Memphis really played a lot differently from the league as
a whole. They barely ran pick and roll last year.
Speaker 1: So it becomes every team plays the I was told you.
Speaker 2: I was told this too, And like, if you have
TJ and Andrew Nemhart as your point guards, and especially
with them hard, if they're gonna see a lot more unders,
which they potentially could depending upon if Andrew can get
his pull up three to more volume, if people are
ducking under a lot, then Jayhoff is going to need
to be able to be a decent rescreener, and Miles
has never been like, as I mentioned in the Oka
series series never necessarily known for his screen craft, so
maybe maybe that's somewhere where Jayhoff could have an edge.
I mean, he actually, despite not being a regular rotation player,
as you just said, almost had as many Transition two's
last season as Miles. So how that translates in the
Pacers transition attack will be interesting because obviously Miles more
often functioned as a trailer at the top of the key, Jayhoff,
based on those numbers, doing more rim running and he
actually played a higher percentage of his minutes in the
fast zone at fourteen feet per second than Miles Turner did.
So those are kind of the main things that I see,
And obviously it would be dictated what my opinion is
on that based on who the point guards are. But
I found it very hard to project how Jay Hoff
would fit with the Pacers, just because what both teams
did offensively and defensively really wasn't comparable. So it was
very hard for me to like find clips and be like, oh,
you can imagine Jay Hoff plugging in right here, if
that makes sense.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I think what you mentioned before about having him
sort of space to the corners is something that he
would be able to replicate pretty easily if they want
to use that as a like a base after all
of five minute a five minute sample size. What are
your impressions of what James Heisman can do James Wiseman
James Heisman, Wow, James Wiseman can do for this team?
But does he factor into this sort of you said
it before, the center by committee stuff that they're going
to attempt to do.
Speaker 2: I mean, I think they found last year that they
definitely want to be a team that has at least
three centers because when two of them, when there's only
two healthy achilles tendons between the two.
Speaker 1: What is going on in Indiana with all these achilles.
Speaker 2: And he's no kidding, Yeah.
Speaker 1: In Orlando this past season.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean I think with James, and I don't
mean this to be diminishing of him, but he's a
big who is big. He gives you more size for position,
He's a big target around the rim. He can certainly
run and transition. I notice some stamina stuff with him
where if you have to play him in very long
stints that can start to wane. I think you have
to keep things very simple with him at both ends
of the floor, and like some of the stuff that
I has mentioned, like the pacers, like if Pascal catches
the ball at the elbow, they like to have you know,
Andrew Nemhard, Benedict Matheren in that dunker spot rather than
a big because it creates a wider gap for Pascal
to attack into. But also then if Pascal gets past
his initial guy, the rim protector is a guard. And
that's kind of where the disconnect is a little bit
for me with like Isaiah Jackson and James Wiseman, because
it's harder to space them in the ball side corner
than it would be with Jay Hoff and Obi and
Miles certainly, so that was something that kind of stood
out in preseason. But he ran the floor for them.
He finished. He had a lot of rebounds per minute
in preseason, but some of that was coming in garbage time.
I don't like, I wouldn't project him to be in
the center rotation when the season starts. I mean, Tony
Bradley's still technically in play too. He has a non
guaranteed deal, but I look at it is I would
be surprised if Jay Huff isn't the starter. I given
that Isaiah's coming back from an injury, I just kind
of expect that they might want to ease him back
in as the reserve, and then if they needed to
go to a different look, I would sooner kind of
expect that they would go with Obi and Siakam. To
be honest with you, Oh.
Speaker 1: What a segue to my next question, Caitlin. Even though
whether it's uncertainty or the community of it all at center,
are we gonna see more like a lot more appreciably
more of the Obi Top, Impascal Siakam from courts or
even just maybe Top is not on the floor. I
think even Rick Carlisle mentioned this on your podcast, Like
Siakam at the five type units in general.
Speaker 2: Yeah, typically they'll only go with Siakham at the five,
like they did that late in the second game of
the year against Dallas when they wanted to press, so
they went really small. I think it would have been
like Andrew, Ben Shephard, maybe Matherin, Nie Smith and Siakam
and they were just flying all over the place trying
to force turnovers, which they ended up doing and then
pulling off another one of their March Madness miracle wins.
Usually if they're going small, it's typically with Obi at
the five, and Obi did improve in some ways that
like doing three quarter court fronting, like sometimes they would
try Obi out there against like Zubats or Sabonis because
obviously Obi has a speed advantage against those guys, And
like in the pick and roll, when he's defending, a
lot of times you're just really dependent on the point
of attack defenders just to get over because a lot
of times you just kind of like he'll just stand
behind Sabonis and I kind of hope for the best,
but in terms of seeing more of it, like fun fact,
the Siakam Obi top in front court almost played as
many crunch time minutes in the Eastern Conference in NBA
five as Seakham and Miles Turner, So thirty two minutes
with Siakam and Obi topping and crunch time in those
two series thirty three minutes with Miles and they were
plus the smaller lineup was plus four and thirty two minutes.
The regular lineup with Miles was minus six and thirty three.
So I definitely think it's still in play, Like especially
like let's say Jay Hoff's not having a great game,
they need to lean more offense at the end of
the game. I think that they might close some games
with Obi at the five, just like they did throughout
the playoffs. I'm actually a little bit intrigued to to
see if they there was a brief window in time
where they were playing with like four fours at once
where they were playing Furfey, Walker, Seakham, and Topping and
it became like way too much TJ ball. They did
not win the minutes, but in the sense that you
do give up rim protection when Obi's out there, you're
putting like maximum length on the floor with those other
three guys. So that's kind of interesting to me. And
like I said, just because James and Isaiah coming off
of injuries, it makes sense for it to still be
a feature at least by my eye.
Speaker 1: Uh, how would you flesh out that, I'm I mean,
if if you would go with Furfey and like high
stakes minutes, okay, sure, but how what's the best way
to flesh out the lineups with Obi and Pascal Siakam
in the front court, knowing that you're giving up rim protection,
Like opponent shot seventy four percent at the rim during
those minutes last year with those two on the floor,
the offense was actually the defensive numbers. I think opponent's
didn't shoot two well from three, but the defensive numbers
were pretty good, but their offense was insane during that time.
So I'm just curious how if you were building the
ideal Obi Pascal Siakam lineup, who what are the other
three players you're putting in there?
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, I think when they were doing Furfey
and Walker it was kind of out of necessity because
other players were out. But I'm intrigued to see more
from both of those guys this year, so I think
it would it would probably be Jeris would be one
of them, because Jarris offers probably the most as a
secondary rim protector with his ability to you know, slide
in and out from the corners to the rim. So
I'd like to see Jaris. And then it's got to
be point of attack defender at the second spot, so
it'd have to be Shepherd Ernie Smith, and then most
of the time it's most likely going to be TJ
because normally when those lineups play, it's either at the
end of the first quarter or the beginning of the
second quarter. That's kind of where the bridge happens. So
normally it's a hybrid with the bench, So I think
that's probably what you'd be looking at.
Speaker 1: Thanks to your world class reporting, we got breaking news
on your podcast with Ric Carlisle that Benancmatherin will be
deemed the starting two guard. What is especially in the
context of Tyres Albert not being available this season, what's
the biggest area of development for him that you'll personally
be tracking this year.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, I think that there's still some things
that are important to his fit with Tyrese that you're
still going to be able to monitor even without Tyrese.
So to this point, since Ben was drafted, they're only
plus zo point three and net rating and over twenty
nine hundred minutes played when mather And and Tyresee are out there.
And we don't need to go really far into that
because this is about this season and Tyreese isn't going
to be playing. But Rick said it on that podcast,
they need Mathern to be a more consistent runner and
sprint to the corners, and he used Sheppard as a
contrast in that. And that was a little bit of
a piece that I wrote here this past week about like,
will the Pacers still be the pacers and that like
Ben Shepherd led the league in the percentage of his
minutes that he played fast, meaning that he is consistently
running to the corners as part of their pace attack.
They're gonna need more of that from Mathern when you
look at what the starting lineup's going to be, especially
because I think that it's possible that they might need
Siakham to be more of a secondary ball handler this
year because they're down, Like it's very reductive to say
they're down by a ball handler without Tyrese, but truly
they are. Like most of the time they would play
with two of the three of TJ Nemhard Tyree. So
if you need Siakam up front, then it becomes even
more important for Ben and Nie Smith to be sprinting
to the corners. And that's something that you're still gonna
be able to watch for, whether Tyree's plays or not.
And then also I think his point of attack defense
needs to improve. He can't give up as many screen rejections.
They need him to be more attended if the ball
pressure is still going to be a feature of what
they do, and this year it's gonna be more important
because to be honest, they got to find a way
to reduce some of Andrew Nemhard's workload. He can't still
be the guy that's gonna guard the other team's best
player for an entire game and be picking up fifty
feet while he's also a primary ball handler. If Ben's
in the starting lineup, he's gonna have to do some
of that because it can't always be Aaron, because Aaron's
very foul prone, number one, when he's guarding on ball
full length to the floor. But also because Aaron has
to take some of those assignments from Pascal. Like you
got to like, Andrew and Pascal are gonna have a
lot on their shoulders this year, so you're gonna need
Aaron to take some of that from Pascal. You're gonna
need Ben to take some of it from Andrew. So
that part, defensively, you're still gonna be able to keep
an eye on, because I do I still think Ben's
on ball defense is actually still a little bit of
ahead of his off ball defense, but it still has
a ways to go. So those two things in particular,
and if he made progress with them, then maybe in
a year from now, you could make a case again
it would be a long shot for me. I don't
think that there's a strong compelling case that when Tyres
is healthy, that Mathern should start in front of Andrew.
I really can't see that one. But maybe if he
does these other things, you can make a case because
he is the more versatile score of starting in front
I'm Nie Smith, but he'd really have to show a
lot more consistency with it. But those are the main
things that I'd be looking at you.
Speaker 1: You did mention that there are things they could do
that would scale to when Tyre's Halburton's back, to get
an idea of how Ben mcmathrin fits into it all,
But how feasible is it or how much change are
you bracing for to see from them on the court
without Tyres Halibert, Like how much harder does it get
to play there to typify their randomization on offense when
he is not going to be there at all? And
then just the second layer to that question is then
how difficult Let's say Ben Mathern has like a great
season this year, but like, how difficult does it get
to judge like what he is to this team with
Tyre's Haliburton When You're just not going to see that
at all this year.
Speaker 2: I mean, I think that they're still stylistically gonna want
to play up tempo, which is where a lot of
the randomness comes from. And still if a play stalls out,
that's the other place where the randomness comes from, the
pace after the triggers that they go to to reignite
the offense, and that is the spot where it gets
kind of glitchy for Ben, that's where it leads to
catch and hold. Like Todd Whitehead had that really great
chart that he made after my podcast showing ranking the
Pacers players in terms of their catch and hold time
and how quickly they make a decision, and Ben was last.
So I think that you'll still be able to keep
an eye on that. Like they might not be able
to do it at the same level without tyres, but
I think that those things they are still going to
try to do. Like whether I go back and forth
about whether they'll run as much pick and roll or not,
I know you said that in the outline, and part
of me thinks, well, it might need to be less
because if they're seeing a lot of unders, maybe that
leads them to do more interior injuries to Siakam, maybe
it becomes more five out just drive it and that's
more touches for Ben. But then on the other side
of it, and like if they are seeing more unders,
especially with Andrew, like Andrew has a knack for foot fakes,
should be able to reject in some of those situations.
But they might have to do more rescreens. And if
they're consistently rescreening, which is a high value points per
possession play rescreens are, then that could mean a lot
more screens. So that could go either way, but those
are kind of the things that stand out to me.
You might see more handoffs, more pitches because those make
it a little bit easier to you know, pitch it
the guy goes under. It's an automatic rescreen. You twist
it to get into offense too. So we'll see. But
I think I think that you'll still be able to
evaluate stuff from Bennets signing to be perfect because like
I said, Ben, like I said, is more catch and hold.
He's better at playing out of plays, tyresee, very quick
decision maker, better at playing at random. But the pacers
are still going to be doing both of those things.
And to be honest, if Ben showed like he had
a tremendous season playing his style, then maybe they're more
amenable to that. Right, Like, you know, the Oklahoma City
Thunder didn't have to play like the Indiana Pacers to
win a champion. Why because they have other worldly talent
in Shake Gildes Alexander, Like, you're willing to do things
when it's a you know, an extraordinary outlier. So I
don't think Ben's on the same level as Shay, But like,
if he showed more of that and they could blend
the two things together, like I think that they would
be open to it. It's just at what level is
he doing at at to make it worth it to
sacrifice their overall efficiency play style, the way that they
want to play deep into the roster, that their way
that they want to play phonetically at both ends of
the floor.
Speaker 1: Well, we talked a little bit about this before we
hopped on about how the league might be perceiving these
guards who aren't playmakers for others and they're not quite wings,
you know, different players, but Anthony Simon's Collin Sexton, the
stuff that went on with Cam Thomas and restricted free agency,
Jalen Green getting a very lucrative deal, but a very
short term lucrative deal. Is there anything like when we're
just talking about that general discussion of guards who aren't
wings and also aren't like primary playmaking material. Is there
anything about Mathrin where you see him being able to
separate himself from that discussion when we're talking about not
through the lens of specifically his next contract, but if
they don't agree to an extension, he is someone who's
going to be on that semi open market as a
restricted free agent.
Speaker 2: Yeah, Ben is not a player of this size in
terms of Andrew Wiggins or Paul George. But something that
Andrew Wiggins and Paul George have both shown in the
playoffs is that they can level up as rebounders. So
Matherin has late in ability as a rebounder. There was
a portion when he was when he was starting with
the other group, he was crashing hard. I think that
that was also part of the reason why their defense
was improving, is that they were rebounding better when he
was on the floor. So he does offer you that,
and I honestly think that that might be something that
shows up a little bit more this season because the
Pacers were not a heavy crash team. They prefer to
get back and set their transition defense. But when you think,
like I said, the basketball is the most important part
about basketball. If they turn the ball over more without Tyrese,
then they might want to be generating some more second
chance opportunities to make up for that, make up for
the lack of shooting, make up for everything offensively, they
might want to be getting more offensive rebounds. So you
might actually be seeing mather and crashing a little bit
more on both ends of the floor to ensure that
they're doing that in valuing possession, So I think that
when you're looking at, you know, somebody like I mentioned,
like what Collin Sexton's trade value just was, Like Ben
I think has more upside overall. But that's definitely an
area when we're looking at some of these other guys
and how the league's valuating him, that he could potentially
still differentiate himself in.
Speaker 1: I think the default take on Andrew Nemhart at this point,
as we know, he's going to have to just shoulder
a lot more. Yeh, what specifically should we be looking
for him to shoulder more of now? Like what is
the biggest change or some of the biggest changes that
he's going to experience with life sounds tyrs albert I.
Speaker 2: Would tell everybody to go back and watch Game five
against the Thunder series. After Tyres had kind of tweaked
his calf. You watch, and they had shifted most of
the ball handling to Andrew by the end of that game,
and by the fourth quarter of Game five, like Andrew
was exhausted. He committed I don't know how many turnovers
in the fourth quarter, and mostly when you watch it, it
was like he just didn't have anything left to give.
So that was when they come back in Game six
to Indy and they pulled all that pressure back because
they knew, like, we have to preserve, we have to
protect Andrew because he's got to be doing so much
more ball handling with the way that Tyres is playing
in the way that he's limited. So they pulled back
the pressure so that he would have a lower pickup point,
and then they ended up doing a little bit more
trapping in the half court. Every game of the regular
season is not going to be Game five of the
NBA Finals, but they have to find a way that
it isn't going to be Game five of the NBA
finals for him, because like I've told everybody that I've
podcasted with about this that, like, look around the league,
how many players do you know who are doing almost
all of the primary initiation because again, they're down by
a point guard. Like, it's not going to be as
many minutes with two point guards on the floor doing
all the primary initiation, also guarding the other team's best player,
not only guarding that player, but picking them up at
an average of forty feet as that player ever existed exactly,
Like it's not reasonable because if you go back and
watch when they played Atlanta, they started Jaris in the
first game, and in the second game, they're like, we
have to start Ben Shepard because we can't have Andrew
being guarded by Dyson Daniels with Dyson Daniels going you know,
under actions repeatedly against Andrew and then also be expecting
Andrew to guard Trey Young and and full court press.
So they started Ben Sheppard in the second game so
that he could be doing that. Ben Shepherd started in
the Eastern Conference finals a year ago, so he could
be doing more of the point of attack stuff. I
think it's gonna be easier for the Pacers to find
none of them are going to be at nem Hard's level,
but I think it will be easier for them to
try to find guys to throw at other top options
and apply that pressure. Then it will be for them
to manufacture people who can initiate the offense and do
as much handling with Guile in addition to Nemhard and TJ.
So the things that I'm going to be watching for
is how did they lighten that load. I even wrote
a whole piece about this that like I talked about
how he's like so sneaky good at quote unquote stealing
the tip at the start of games, and that you'll
literally be able like it will be somewhat of a
communication of what the pacers are going to do with
him based on where he's standing at the center circle.
Because all of last year he would be opposite of
the referee. He would assume that Miles Turner was going
to lose the tip and he would jump to the
opposing team's side and intercept it get the ball, like
he did this a lot of times. If you watch
the clip package that I made now this year, I
ask myself, like will he still be standing there or
will he be back ready to receive the ball as
the point guard. And that may seem like a tiny
stupid thing, but it actually communicates a lot because in Atlanta,
they still had him opposite the referee because they still
valued like the quote unquote special Andrew Nemhart stuff, and
they had Pascal Siakam back ready to receive the ball.
So it's like, is more gonna be on Pascal or
is more gonna be on Andrew? My general sense is
and this part makes me a little bit sad. I
hope he's able to maintain balance with both. But I
love I wrote the piece in December about him pulling
the chair on defense that has since blown up a
lot on the internet. I made t shirts about it too.
But I love the little nuances of all the things
that Andrew does on the court, and I hope that
with him becoming a starting point guard that they don't
have to lose some of those some of the special
things that he does. But part of me thinks that
that may end up needing to happen, just from an
energy and stam at a standpoint.
Speaker 1: And you have kind of mentioned that you think it's
easier to replace like the pressure specifically that he'll bring
on defense with the players they have, and so I'm
just kind of curious, is there when you look at
players who are doing it from different positions and theyre
have different sizes, is there a connective quality within those
players that goes into the Pacers being able to defend
the way that they do when they have those high
pickup points.
Speaker 2: It's the fact that I talked about this briefly when
I went over and guessed it on Samson Folks podcast
at Raptors Republic last week that we were talking about
the fact that the Raptors also have a high pickup
point and I was like, well, don't have Davian Mitchell anymore.
Who's gonna do that? And Samson said, well, Emmanuel Quickly
has put in a lot of effort to try to
be that person for next season. And I said, okay, well,
let's say that Emmanuel Quickly is a superstar in that role.
What happens when he passes it? Like, are RJ. Barrett
and Brandon Ingram then gonna pick up at half court?
Like is that something that I should be expecting because
I'm thinking probably not. And with the Pacers, literally everyone
will do it like it's a ten to eleven man
effort where you're gonna see people picking up if their
guy has the ball, Like I mean, you saw it
when they played Boston, Pascal and Obie were picking up
when they were guarding Drew Holiday. If Drew Haliday was
the ball handler, they guarded him the full length of
the floor. Pascal did that throughout the playoffs if some
teams had to go to multiple ball handlers when the
ball got moved, he did it. When they were in Paris,
Miles Turner picked up Victor Webbin Yama is the ball
handler the full length of the floor. So I think
that that's why it's as effective for them as it is,
is that they're willing to play ten to eleven guys,
so they're able to maintain the stamina of doing that.
But also all ten to eleven guys have and are
willing to do it.
Speaker 1: Aside from just the getting back to the not having
Tyrese Haliburton of it all, aside from just the volume
with which they're going to interact, How do you see
the or how should we expect the interplay between Andrew
Nemhard and Pascal Siakam on offense to change without Hallie.
Speaker 2: That's a good question. I mean a lot of times
they liked running three man actions between Tyresee, Nemhart, and
Pascal at the end of game, so it'd be like
if people can picture it. They like running wedge rolls,
so like Nemhard would come up to the elbow area
and set a little backscreen where Pascal has the option
to slide to the block, and if that isn't there,
then Pascal goes straight across and sets the wedge roll
screen for Tyresee is the ball handler. That was pretty
much their go to action and it worked really well
because most of the time, if a team wants to
try to cheat the Andrew screen by sliding under it,
then you're getting an advantage when Pascal, that defender is
going to be out of position when Pascal goes to
set the wedge roll, they're going to be and then
Tyresee is able to just dribble into a shot. So
if you're having to reverse those roles, certainly somebody else.
Andrew's a very physical guard screener, but somebody else can
step in there and set the backscreen for Siakam, you
might still get the same benefit where the screener defender
is late to the screen. But then it goes back
to what I said, how often are other teams gonna,
you know, go under on this and you're gonna be
able to trust like and they're comfortable using Pascal as
a screener, But are you comfortable using him as a
screener who has to show more craft against an under
than what was ever necessary with Tyres and like, Let's
also not forget Tyree's very high at the top of
the list in terms of screen rejections, so sometimes the
quality of the screen doesn't matter because he's not even
using it. So that's kind of a thing. But I
think that I still expect to see like it might
change a little bit too, because if Andrew's being guarded
by like Dyson Daniels, is advantageous for you to be
running like the empty side actions between Pascal and Andrew,
Maybe yes, but maybe no. Like in the past, Andrew
a lot of times would have a weaker defender. So
if if Andrew comes up and screens for Pascal, then
you're getting the benefit of you know, not Diyson Daniels,
So that that would be a tiny thing. But I mean,
they like to be a team that has a lot
of guys. They're able to do a lot of things.
So you know, I guess if it were a case
where oh, Trey Young's guarding Aaron Smith, they would probably
be just as willing to lay air and go set
a screen for Pascal to try to get what mismatch
they want. It just might not be as many frequent
ones just between Andrew and Pascal independently.
Speaker 1: Aarony Smith, We've come a long way since like three
years ago on this podcast when they first acquired him,
I said, he just makes me nervous when he tries
to dribble. He's improved just every single season. Is there
still like bites at the Apple for him to conquer
our next frontier? Or have we seen like peak aaron
Ne Smith by this point?
Speaker 2: You know, I think that something that stood out to
me a lot in this playoff run was that he
shot forty on fifty guarded threes in the playoffs, so
guarded threes. Last year in the playoffs he shot seven
of twenty nine on guarded threes. So then you have
to ask yourself, like, why was he so much more
effective shooting shots that were contested? And I think that
part of the biggest reason for that was if you
look at his most frequent assignments in these playoffs, it
was Shay Jalen Brunson, Donovan Mitchell, aj Green, Darius Garland,
Gary Trent Junior, Kyle Kuzma, I think was the tallest
defender that was one of his more frequent assignments last
year in the playoffs, it was Chris Middleton, Jason Tatum,
Jalen Brown, Josh Hart. So because Nemhard was being used
so much more often as an initiator, teams weren't as
willing to be like, oh, let's put Jalen Brunson or
Donovan Mitchell or Darius Garland onto Nemhard. We don't, you know,
you don't want to be using those guys's point of
attack pick and roll defenders as much. So those guys
were getting moved over to Aaron, which meant that Aaron
had a height advantage consistently throughout at least the first
three rounds of the playoffs, which enabled him to be
able to be a more effective shooter because you know,
he improved his footwork as like a blur screener, and
but he's he takes most of his threes are not
off the dribble, some of them were this year. So
the fact that he could take like a one dribble
shot and invade a close out matter. But I think
that's the thing that stands out to me the most.
So then it kind of goes back to Benedict Matherin then, right, Like,
if Ben's able to draw some of those tougher assignments
at the two, just like what Andrew was doing in
the playoffs, then Nie Smith might still see some of
those smaller guards throughout the regular season and that will
be to his benefit. But to your point, I think
they might need even more on ball juice from him, honestly,
because like I've mentioned these games against Atlanta a lot,
but that's because Tyres didn't play in them, and it
provides the best window into what they might be looking at.
And like, if Aaron's being guarded by Trey Young and
Andrew has the ball being guarded by Dyson Daniels, the
Hawks a lot of times would go to like a
hedge and under that way they could keep Trey on
Aaron E. Smith, so he's doing a soft show. He's
staying with Aaron, and Dyson would duck under the entire action,
so you're taking away like a little short roll. If
the screener wants a short role, they can't get to it.
So that was something that the Pacers had to work around.
The best way to counter for that is to pop.
So if Aaron can pop and pop and drive against
Trey Young, very valuable. But he's got to be actually
willing to rip it from a standstill and be able
to attack some of those smaller, weaker defensive assignments. So
I think that there are some circumstances where they might
actually need even more on balld juice from him. Although
he definitely made progress from two point range after he
returned and was healthy as a starter last year.
Speaker 1: I'm just going to assume that he does it because
of how much he's improved since he first arrived on
the Pacers. I just wrote that trade off. It's like, oh,
like it's fine, I get it, and he turned into
one of the most valuable players in the playoffs.
Speaker 2: You know what's really funny to think about as a
tiny as side to that is, I remember Malcolm brogged
in giving an interview after that trade, and I'm not
saying that I'm not going to doubt Malcolm, and I
don't know from the Pacers ppect whether this actually happened,
But Malcolm was like, I, you know, they gave me
a choice. They had potential trades with Toronto and Boston,
and I chose Boston, which led you to believe that
the Pacers saw like both trades is potentially like we
see these as equal outcomes, so like there's a realm
where Aaron doesn't end up on the team if you
think about it that way, Like the Pacers could have
gotten something back from Toronto.
Speaker 1: At that point, Like what.
Speaker 2: Exactly, I don't know, Like I always question that because
I'm like, really, they gave like they gave you leeway
to pick. But that's what he indicated in an interview
after the fact that he was like, you know, there
was potential for me to go to Toronto or Boston, and
I wanted to come to Boston. I want a chance
to win.
Speaker 1: When Jars Walker came into the NBA, two of the
things I said was I don't trust his shot from
beyond the arc, and I think he's going to be
a defensive monster. He's kind of flipped both of those
things on their heads. Almost half his shots have come
from three since i'dering not a ton of volume, but
he shot them well and his defense has just been
felt like it's touch and go. Yeah, So what is
or what can Jaris Walker be because this is one
of those players where I just don't have a great
feel for what he can potentially become at this point.
And also just how much of an opportunity do you
expect him to have this season specifically because year three
is it's kind of unofficially a critical year for every
player because you now have technically a track record under
your belt, and also from a team building perspective, you
start thinking about, oh, they're extension eligible after this season too.
Speaker 2: Yeah. It's kind of funny with Ben Shephard and Jarrison
that same draft class because Ben Shepard was pegged as
the shooter, Jarris pegged as you know, the defensive monster,
and like Ben ended up impressing with this point of
attack defense and Jarris ended up pressing impressing with his shot.
Definitely made a lot of progress with the shot. I
think he turned the corner some Defensively. You mentioned that
game against Minnesota. He was really bad in that game.
They put on Anthony Edwards late. They basically had to
blitz everything. He picked up a lot of late game fouls,
ended up filing out or you know, he didn't foul out,
he ended up limping off with an injury, and then
they had tried to put him on Julius Randall, Like
it was not a good showing. But after that game,
like little by little, it was like, okay, he could potentially,
you know, have like a bit role in the playoffs
at this point. Like I even wrote my preseason or
my pre preview piece on the Bucks about like how
ready is ready? Because they might legitimately need Jaris Walker
to take some of these possessions against the honest because
you can't have Pascal being the only primary and like
nobody else has size to do it. And Jeris did
end up taking some of those possessions. I think mainly
like sometimes it's gonna be tough, like what you said
with a tool zy wing, and like exactly when you
can do everything, what is your crystallized skill that keeps
you on the court. I think with Jaris I like
him defensively as an event creator, like what I said,
with him being a secondary rim protector, Like late in
the game against the Lakers, he ended up staying in
the closing line up in as with a miss box
out at the end. But he actually had some standout
moments where he had like two vertical contests on the
same possession that got stops at the rim. For me,
the thing that I'm watching for the most with him,
and Pascal showed this in a little workout video, is
he's trying to get Jarris to stampede catch more, which
means like the go and catch rather than wasting a dribble,
to help him get better driving angles and hopefully that
will then help him with his takeoff points, because I'm
still at a place with him where like I don't
want in the half court for him to be taking
almost as many runners as layups at his size, And
a lot of that still goes back to the fact
that I've mentioned this many times, but he tiptoes so
because he plays up on his toes, it creates some
balance issues and that's in part why he takes as
many off balance floaters as he does at the rim.
Right now, he's in the twenty fifth percentile for wings
and rim conversion. Right he also doesn't get to the
rim that often. He's still he has some stuff like
Ben where just like positioning with when they're playing random
where he doesn't always seem quite on the same page
that he needs to iron out. But like when you
look at it, and again, I don't want to be
reductive of tyres Aaliburn, but there is a rotation spot
open by virtue of the fact that he is not playing.
So it's going to be much easier for Jarries to
definitively be part of the rotation when the season starts
than what was the case last season. I like the
fact that he's continued to work with Pascal. I think
that's a very good mentor for him. But he needs
to play with consistent force and energy, like that's like
motor stuff is genuinely what I think has kept him
off the floor at times, Like he just has possessions
where it's like, you know, I'm not really sure that
when they started you against the Atlanta Hawks that you
should have like a really casual turnover and then not
get back at all where I can't even see you
in frame of the play, Like it's those types of things,
like they gave you an opportunity here to be a
starter and it's the first quarter like they need some
of that stuff to be diminished because the talent. The
talent is there, like a lot of the tools he
has certainly physically, So I think he's gonna be in
the rotation and he's gonna have a much greater chance
to be playing regular minutes this year. For sure.
Speaker 1: It's he You should have him watch on the getting
back in transition defense stuff. You should have him read
the piece about Pascal Siakam falling down and then still
being able to get back on defense and that like
that's like that was one of the hallmarks, like the
Pacers defense is there was like only three defenses that
were better at points loott for possession, when the Pacers
would miss a shot at the rim, and when you're
missing a shot at the rim. A lot of these,
I mean someone who's watched a lot of knicks, Not
everybody's gonna get back. Shout out kar Anthony Towns for
that one. So it's like when these like you have
Pascal Siakam falling down and still managing to get back,
So maybe they should just watch him, show him like
NonStop footage of that on a loop and see how
see if it see if it takes.
Speaker 2: We can only hope. Yeah, I mean I I watched
every clip because if people don't know, Pascal did lead
the league in falls last year.
Speaker 1: Yet more, subscribe the basketball. She wrote that there was
the jump passes one that was like the piece that
popped like a couple of years ago, and that your
shirts made after and everything, and then you're able to
just go into the weeds on Pascal Siakam falling down.
It was absolutely incredible. Your podcast about it, you wrote
about it. Go subscribe and pay for the basketball. She wrote,
subscription right right to hell. Now, I'm sorry to interrupt there.
Speaker 2: Those are my favorite types of pieces, Like I like
the Andrew dem Hard chair pull one. I have a
shirt on that one. But the Pascal one was actually
a male bad question that somebody sent me in December,
and I had been kind of quietly being like, this
would be a good thing to do as a summer project.
And I told him I was like, when it's the summer,
I'll do it. And so he had the most falls
on his jump shot of any non guard. And so
I sent Samson all that film and the two of
us watched it because I was like, you know, he's
watched more Pascal than anybody, and we were able to
do that podcast together, so I know that that one
was really far into Caitlin Land. That's a very course
deep drive.
Speaker 1: But you're fomenting sickos you had someone asked that mail
bad question about Pascal siakamuh so like everyone is like
they're picking up on your sickoism by Osmosis. I love it.
Speaker 2: That's one of the benefits of my Patreon. I get
a lot of really thoughtful male bad questions that I
always appreciate every month.
Speaker 1: For sure, where are we at on the Ben Shepherd experience,
You know.
Speaker 2: It's it's a curious one because he came back from
that oblique injury and his shot to me, by my eye,
looked like he was twisting a bit to his left
after that. And he's never been like a consistent I
think most of the time with Shepherd, you kind of
feel like you wish you would make like one more
three than what he does. So that's there, and I
think sometimes you wish that he would take like more
one more three than what he does, Like he's very
quick to trigger the extra pass. But like Rick talked
about on that podcast when he was comparing the two bends,
and he termed it as this, like Ben Shepherd really
is a soldier within their system, like he's going to
run to the corners, He's gonna lubricate and really be
important in between actions. And he has one of the
lowest blow by rates in the NBA, like now sometimes
against more physical goal arts if he gives up a bump.
He doesn't always have the highest or the best like
contest on that. But if you need somebody to pressure
full court and you need somebody that's gonna run, that's
your guy. I do wonder like I think Taylor Peter's
pretty interesting, and Taylor Peter kind of does some of
the Ben Shepherd stuff. And I also think Johnny Furfy
is really interesting. And while I do not see Johnny
Furfy as a shooting guard other than maybe in some
really quirky lineups, he kind of does some of the
Ben Shepherd stuff too. But these things being said, like
it's very important organizationally that Benedict Mathern be the starter
and Matheren definitely has the higher ceiling overall, But there
is a world where Ben Shepherd starting next to Nemhard
makes more sense in my head simply because why they
started him in the second game against Atlanta. You can
put Ben Shepherd on Trey Young and be like, hey,
go pressure the ball, so Andrew doesn't have to do it.
And also we can count on you like our paces.
Like people talk about, They ask me, like, as the
gonna still happen without Tyres on the court like it
has to. It's almost more important without Tyres on the
court because of what might be going on in the
half court situations. So with that in mind, like he
is your most reliable runner. So there is a world
where that makes a little bit more sense in my
head and could loom if they don't get off to
a good start, despite the fact that I readily acknowledge
that for many reasons for the team as a whole,
it needs to be Benedict Matheren, and I understand why
Rick revealed that in the way that he did on
the podcast. But I still like Ben Shepherd. But like
I said, there's two people behind him in a similar
role who I think are really intriguing and also offer
some things that Ben Shepherd doesn't do, But I don't
think that they're ready to leap into play the Ben
Shepherd role right now. Today, if that makes sense.
Speaker 1: Ben Shepherd's another is more proof of your clairvoyance because
I remember talking about him coming out of his first
Summer League and asking you, like, this guy defended like
a lot of really big players. There's like a defensive
possession that he had in the post that is one
of the few Summer League plays that is tattooed to.
And I was just like, you know what, I think,
Like the jumper is gonna be fine. He's just gonna
become like this really lead three and D guy. And
You're like, you know, I don't know, Like the jumper
feels like it's gonna be inconsistent. Lo and behold, here
we are two or three years later, whatever it is,
and you just mentioned it'd be nice if he could
make one or two more three pointers or take them.
That's what it feels like. You did mention some of
the other guys for some reason. I was in charge
of doing rookiees scuty reports after Summer League this year
at bleacher Report Town. Peter does interest me because of
one of the notes I had where it feels like
half court does feel like he's in constant motion. You
mentioned him, You mentioned Johnny Furfey of the quote unquote
like other guys that the Pacers have on the roster,
who do you find just most interesting through that big
picture lens or even maybe could they surprise and get
some run this season.
Speaker 2: Johnny Furfey intrigues me a lot. He fits their style
of play quite well for the same reasons that Ben
Shepperd does. He needs to be able to do more
above the break. And when he was at Summer League,
he was bigger number one. He looked like he's put
on like legitimate. I don't want to make this muscle watch,
but they said it.
Speaker 1: Was aggregators halftag muscle.
Speaker 2: While yeah, I mean, if you look at the photo
of him, I understand that they're they're standing on an incline.
But he he bigger and better Johnny Furfey apparently. But
he did turn the ball downhill more from above the break.
What happened once he got downhill wasn't always ideal, But
when you're that size and you can actually guard on
ball handlers, that's really special. I think he plays pretty
well and contained. There were games last year when granted
some of their pointed attack defenders were out, but it
was like, hey, Jeris just lost Brandon Miller on an
off ball screening action. So we're gonna put tj on
Brandon Miller, and we've put Jarris on Mesach and now
Jaris gave up a blow by to Mesitch and now
it's Johnny Furfey, and Johnny Furfey's doing a better job
of playing and containing or like being up in Brooklyn
and me seeing them put Johnny Furfy on Dennis Shrewder,
like again, when you're that height, and that's an assignment
you can take on, Like, I would not put him
on guard on all ones, but the fact that he
can do it at all is a pretty cool thing.
And I feel comfortable with him guarding two through four.
The shot needs to make progress, but he's a good rebounder.
I think the rebounding is going to be more important
for the reasons that I said. I think filling and
running lanes and transition is going to be important for
the reasons that I said. And then obviously everybody knows
what he had with the Dunks in Summer League and
what is overall athleticism is. So I if I had
like a hot take about the Pacers, it might be
that Johnny furfy cracks the rotation at some point this season,
oh for somebody else.
Speaker 1: So it's like he outplays somebody rather than something goes wrong,
like there's another.
Speaker 2: I think it could happen. I think it's possible, Like
I don't think it will be that case at the
beginning of the year, but if he if he comes
because he's usually pretty ready to play, if he comes
in and can do some of the stuff he did
at Summer League, I think it's possible. After that. Like
I said, Taylor Peter really intrigued me, and it might
be because it was stuff like I don't remember how
many drives he had Liberty, but I want to say
it was less than fifteen. And to see him at
Summer League and it's like, oh, he's got a little
extra burst there, Like he just had a heasy out
of the corner. He switched hands on a layup. I
was like, he has a lot of momentum moving towards
the basket. And also he was better defensively than I expected,
like not necessarily with his screen navigation, but in isolation
situations he was pretty good at using his chest. He
was physical, So I think there's something there. And He's
very intuitive as an off ball mover in some ways
that sometimes I don't even see from guys in the
main rotation for the Pacers being that like they'll run
like pinned downs into handoffs out of baseline, out of
bounce plays, And there were times at Summer League where
he recognized, like, oh, there's a switch I can slip
that pin down. Those opportunities are there a lot in games,
and more often than not, like that guy will just
back out to the corner because I had I put
this in a piece. But like I had a coach
once say, and it was nobody with the Pacers, but
they said, like, you know, we were gonna value playing
higher in the gaps and with ball pressure because if
we give up one or two back cuts a game,
like that's a sacrifice for what we get. And I
agree with that overall, because when you're playing really high
ball pressure, it can be hard to execute those back
to our passes. But also it almost makes the guys
and role players who can do that even more valuable
because its effectively like free points. And Taylor Peter's definitely
somebody who recognizes opportunities for him to be opportunistic, which
I realize that's redundant, but genuinely like he is very
intuitive when he's out on the court as an off
ball mover. So I like what I saw from him.
I'll definitely want to see some of his J League
games this year.
Speaker 1: Well if I had a hot take for the Pacers,
and I know it'll require a trade or some sort
of roster futzing and fiddling. I think he's going to
be converted from his two way by the end of
the season. I like him that much. I like him
a little bit more than Cam Jones, so I thought
he was fine in Summer League too.
Speaker 2: Yeah, Cam Jones is like obviously he potentially fills a
greater position of need because the Pacers only have two
point guards and there's not a lot of people that
they can throw over that spot, like obviously Quentin Jackson could.
Though he's better as a dynamic slasher can and he
had some good moments at Summer League, but he's a
small guard and he's pretty floater dependent. But Cam's game
is very like the quirks and nuances are pretty predictable
because he's extremely left hand dominant, like you could pretty
much count on if there's a screen to his right,
he's gonna reject that screen. If he gets turned and
he has to go to his right, he's almost gonna
always if he's on the right side the floor, he's
almost always gonna go to his spin move to get
to a lefty floater. Like it's very predictable and consistent
that those are the things that he's going to do.
So at the NBA level, I think that's gonna be
tough because in some ways he does. I had a
scout reach out to me and tell this, and I
think it's accurate. Like he's very similar to Lance Stevenson
and his body type, his drive pattern, his shooting mechanics.
So his shot is either going to have to get
more consistent or he's gonna have to be not as
left hand dominant because he doesn't. The thing that differentiates
him from Lance Stevenson is he doesn't have as much
kick and burst. He's not as athletic. So he's a
good finisher and he's good playing off the two feet.
He's crafty. That matters, But he's gonna have to be
really crafty because right now, like I said, it kind
of matters because the pacers, you know, people are going
to counter and be like, well, Tyree's is a super
right hand dominant guard and so it's TJ I'm like, well, yes,
but Tyrese will still go to his left. He gets
off the ball too quickly, but he still can make
passes with his left hand, and he can also pull
up in either direction, going right or left. So and
in addition to the whole thing that he's like an
all NBA point guard certainly matters, but.
Speaker 1: Just a little bit.
Speaker 2: That's the difference like Cam Jones doesn't. He doesn't have
the same degree of flextion with his left hand to
be making on target passes either or with his right
excuse me, his offhand. So we'll see what he's able
to do. He fills a greater position of need, like
I said, because they don't have a lot of primary
ball handlers right.
Speaker 1: Now, CC, are you ready to enter the cookie Cutter
slash lightning round portion of the time?
Speaker 2: Oh I d am?
Speaker 1: I indeed am. Now maybe this question really isn't that
interesting because of the Tyre's Haliburton injury. So if I
remove saying the biggest need they have is a healthy
Tyres's hoalse, what is this roster's biggest need as of
right now to you.
Speaker 2: I mean, I think it's directly related to Terry Saliburton, right.
I mean, I think in addition to I if they
have a starting center between Jahoff for Isaiah Jackson, that
would be a massive, massive win. I think they're still
going to need a starting center at some point. But
shooting in general, like, they shot thirty eight percent from
three on thirty eight attempts per one hundred when Tyree's
was on the court, only thirty eight percent of those
were heavily contested. When he was off the court, they
shot thirty four percent on thirty three point attests per
one hundred, and forty four percent of those were heavily contested.
So lower volume, lower accuracy, higher contest rate. Like, I think,
probably the biggest Tyree stat that I know of that
I was going to mention earlier that speaks to like
what he can do as being negative space and art,
is that the Pacers had one of like here I
have it. They're twenty ninth and the percentage of touches
that they were double teamed on last year twenty ninth,
and yet they took the lowest percentage of threes that
were contested, so without being double teamed, they weren't taking
contested threes, and some that's by design because they don't
take bad shots and they like to stampede catch a
lot to create angles to the rim, sometimes at the
cost of catch and shoot threes. But that's definitely a
tyrese haliber and stat in terms of their ability to
generate open shots because the ball moves so much more
quickly than the defense. The ball is always staying ahead
of the defense in rotation because of what decisions he makes.
So I think that the shooting, and because of the shooting,
I don't think that they have an implicit way to
replace that right now. I don't know how they're going
to replace his pull up shooting. I guess if I'm
using Pascal Siakam's nineteen minute clip video. It definitely warmed
my heart that Andrew took and made to pull up threes.
And I like Andrew Demhart a lot. I think he
has a lot of guile as a pick and roll creator,
so I certainly hope that that's a thing that holds
for him. But that means they're going to need to
crash more. They might need to rim one more. They
might need to be a more physical team overall, So
I think that the shooting matters.
Speaker 1: That Tyre's Haliburton stat might have earned a Throwbacks to
zatz tweet, Tony East of Lockdown, Pacer said he missed
those that I used to call from every podcast. That's
a that's an insane number. Is there something about this
team that you think is flying under the radar and
deserves have more of a spotlight shined on it.
Speaker 2: I think I kind of already said it in that
I'm going to be keeping an eye on Johnny Furfey.
I do think you know, in a season when like
this isn't a development year, it's not a wasted year,
but in a year where you don't have Tyrese, you
want to be seeing development from key guys for when
they come back. And I'm not saying Johnny Furvey is
not as key in that area as the guys that
they drafted in the lottery. And obviously what Andrew's going
to do is a starting point guard, but I do
think that Johnny could be interesting depending upon what else
happens with the rotation. So I guess that's probably the
most like under the radar one because a lot of people, rightfully,
so are talking about Ben and Andrew and Jarris, so
I'll throw him in there too.
Speaker 1: I meant to ask you this when we were talking
Nemhard and Mathren. They have I don't know how much
attention you paid, like awards odds, they have like two
of the top four odds to win Most Improved Player.
Who do you think is going to be in a
position to maybe actual lives like have that better opportunity.
I think Ben Mathern's working from that lower baseline, which
I think can always help in that ward. But I
feel like Andrew Nemhart just might have more agency over
the offense, and so I almost would lean towards him.
Speaker 2: It's almost like they're going to be interrelated, right because, like,
if Andrew does more with agency over the offense, it
might be because somebody's lightened his load on defense. And
if somebody's lightning his load on defense, it might be Mathern.
So if Mathern makes progress as a defender and also
is like a twenty point per game score, you might
lean matherin. But I think in my head, the big
picture one is that let's say that and I'm not
saying this is gonna happen. But the Pacer started ten
and fifteen last year. If the Pacers start ten and
fifteen again this year, and they're like, we need to
make a starting lineup change, who between Nemhrder matherns the
most likely person not to start, Well.
Speaker 1: They all make room for Johnny Furfy. So I would
think that it's bad.
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's not gonna be Johnny Purphy, but there's no
way that Nemhard isn't going to start. They don't have
any other way around that, Like he would have to
be Like there would have to be other worldly things
for them to start TJ instead of Nemhart, but they
might need to make a tweak somewhere else. So, because
of my confidence and what he would do for the
full season, and because of what I already know of
Andrew Nemhard, my leen is Nemhart, but I think that
they both could certainly be in play.
Speaker 1: If I were to have you build a ten man
rotation for the Indiana basers, what is the starting lineup
and then who are the five most used reserves?
Speaker 2: So Andrew Matherinnie Smith, Siakham, and I just I lean
Jay Huff because I think it's going to be important
to try to replicate what Miles did for Pascal, because Pascal,
like last year, he had his lowest usage rate since
he won a championship with Toronto and was third field
Kawhi and Kyle Lowry. He had his lowest touches per
one hundred possessions since his sophomore season. So he's going
to have more of the basketball and he might need
to do more as a secondary ball handler if you
want to be entering the ball into the post more
with him in the ways that I talked about where
they like, you know, that high low from the top
of the key out of pistol. It's going to be
easier to do that with jay Hoff than it's going
to be with Isaiah, and getting to alignments, like I said,
with a guard in the dunker is going to be
easier with Jay Hoff than it is with Isaiah. And also,
Jay Hoff's not coming off an Achilles injury. So I'm
not saying it will stay that way the whole season,
but that I would be surprised if that isn't the
way that it starts. And also just because the bench
kind of makes a little bit more sense to me
to also have an inside out option with Isaiah playing
with Obi toppin rather than the other way around. So
I kind of look at that. I think that the
second unit will be TJ Ben shepperd Jaris and Obie
and Isaiah Jackson with James Wiseman and Johnny Furfey on
the outside looking in.
Speaker 1: So this this is obviously to some extent matchup dependent.
But what do you think will wind up being their
go to closing lineup? Because right now without Tyresa feels
like there are three locks unless you want to throw
Mathron in his lock, but like nemhrd Siakam and Nie
Smith just feel non negotiable there.
Speaker 2: Yeah, for sure, I mean I think I would probably
just say whoever ends up being the starting lineup would
be most likely. But my second lean there would probably
be Obi like going small with Obi at the five.
They did that enough in the playoffs that I could
see them using that routinely as a closing lineup and
just trying to still maintain the five out while keeping
the speed offensively because a lot of times teams like
to slow down in the fourth quarter. But the Pacers
have been very outright and saying like we would prefer
like we don't want to be an isolation team, and
that matters even more now that they don't want to
be an isolation team. And Obi certainly helps you play
fast on possession, So I could see a situation where
it's nem Hard Matherin, Obie Seawkham Knee Smith. Although, like
I will say, the defensive lineups when mathering and topping
we're out there at the same time, really we're not good.
So there might be a situation, like I would say,
my first one is the starters, next one would be Obi,
and then the next one. There might be a situation
where you might close with Ben Shepherd if defense is
more important to you.
Speaker 1: Is there a weirdo quirky lineup you want to see
Rick Carlisle try this season?
Speaker 2: I mean, I might like to see more of like
just you know, if injuries were to happen, knock on
Wood seeing a little bit more a Jarris and Johnny
Furfey together just because that gives you a lot more
size in the gaps, and they're so different from each
other that I don't think that they would really infringe,
either defensively or offensively, and potentially try that when Obi's
the rim protector, again just to see what it looks like.
Hopefully it doesn't devolve into quite as much TJ ball.
And then maybe if you needed to go really small
at the end of the game, like when I was
talking about that press lineup, maybe you look at Jarris
and Siakam together as you're four and your five. And
then also, like I was just trying to think up
like the fastest possible lineup you could play, and I
was like, what if you did like TJ Shepherd, aaron
Ne Smith, Johnny Furfey, Obi topping, Like that's a preseason lineup, Like,
let's see that in a preseason lineup, just to see
how fast they could play. It's not gonna get put
out there in a regular season game, but like that's
the speedsters.
Speaker 1: You because you talked me into putting Johnny Furfey in
mind just throughout this podcast, would not have been what
I listened at the beginning. I think we should take
that lineup that you just said and let's just sub
about TJ. And we'll throw Tailent Peter in there. Let's
just let's really just this.
Speaker 2: Is the Dan and Caitlyn lineup, so I we will
never see a minute of life in the regular season,
but in preseason time in the fourth quarter, let's.
Speaker 1: Go what about if they're like garbage time in the
regular season, Like yeah, like maybe they're up by twenty
or something like, let's roll that out there. Let's have it, uh, Caitlin,
Before I ask you some predictive questions, is there any
one anything else about this team we haven't talked about
that you think needs to be discussed?
Speaker 2: No, I think that I think that we've covered it
extremely thoroughly. People at this point are probably like, how
much longer is this podcast is going to be?
Speaker 1: No, the people that are listening to the look Aheads
are the ones that want these things to go on forever,
rest assured, So they're waiting with baited breath to find
out your answer to this question. What's a realistic number
of games for this team to aim to win? And
where do you see them stacking up in the larger
context of the Eastern Conference.
Speaker 2: I mean, I think Vegas had them at what thirty eight?
I think I might be tempted to take slightly over there.
The thing that I can't shake from my mind is
that they started ten to fifteen last year and there
was a lot of contributing factors as to why that was,
but the biggest one is that Tyrese was limited and
now they're not even going to have a limited version
of tyres for the benefit of his gravity, because despite
the fact that he was struggling and some of those
games early on, teams were still picking him up full
court and that was in part why he was struggling,
because he had to adjust to that physicality, match the
friction as a screener, to get himself loose, adapt to
having to play off the ball more. And like I said,
there was other things like not having Aaron and Andrew
and Ben certainly mattered to their defense and getting their
offense right and having to adapt and find the right
playing combinations. Like all those things happened, but they were
still ten and fifteen when the season started, and now
they're not even gonna have Tyrese. So I would take
this slightly over there, and I think that I would
probably have them in like the seven eight nine range
I think is realistic, and I will say this that
like that's probably a little bit lower than the fan
base thinks. Overall, I think that they're like the fan
base seems really enthused and rightfully so, because I think
that they do have a lot of exciting young players,
and I think that the season could still be meaningful.
But I will say there is if they got into
a play in tournament situation, I think I'd be pretty
confident about their ability to fight out of that, just
because all these guys have so much playoff experience and
I really trust that coaching staff that in a one
game situation to like come up with a really strong
game plan. So I think that the playoffs could potentially
still happen, but I don't want to set unrealistic expectations
without Tyres being there. And I do think that they
find themselves in a kind of a win win situation
where like, if they were to make the playoffs, that's
going to because Mathern or nem Hard or Jerris or
all three of them really took some strides that will
be valuable when Tyres does come back. And if they
don't make the playoffs, they're getting a lottery pick in
a season that Tyree's is going to be coming back.
So I think either way, like all things considered, that's
that's a good place to find themselves.
Speaker 1: In Caitlin and feel free to use this as another
form to talk about Johnny Furfy, But could I get
one PACER's prediction from you for this coming season.
Speaker 2: I don't think this is going to be super hot
because this could go a number of ways. But I
think that the starting lineup they start the season with
won't be the starting lineup that they finish the season with.
And that could be because they make a trade. That
could be because they toggle centers, that could be because
they look, you know, in other places like I think
that nem Hard, Nismith, and Siakam are pretty guaranteed, but
I wouldn't be surprised if the other two spots get
finagled or if they made a mid season that might
lead them to start.
Speaker 1: Somebody else got to clear the runway for Johnny Furphy.
I get it. I totally understand it. Uh, Caitlin, this
was great as always. Thank you for giving me so
much of your time. Thank you for giving me so
much of your insight, or you able just to tell
our audience where they could find you in all the
magnificent work that you do.
Speaker 2: So if you're at YouTube, you will see on the
screen that my handle at X is at C two
underscore Cooper. My handle at Blue Sky is my full name,
Kaitlin May Cooper and spelled the same way as Caitlin Clark,
the one truth spelling of Caitlin. But then if you
go to either of those places, the link to my
patreons there patreon dot com slash basketball, she wrote, is
where you'll find all my work and if you want
to check out, I put all my YouTube videos over there.
But on YouTube it's just my name as well and
Samson and I. If you want to go back and
relive the playoffs, all of our playoff videos are there.
We did do the one about Pascal, and then I
tried to do the interview that I did with Rick
Carlisle in a way that it would hopefully remain and
stay evergreen. I wanted to talk about, you know, broader
NBA concepts and what random Offense has meant to him
over the course of his career, and he've been touched
on it from his time as a player, So I
think that that one be'll be able to be re
listened to, despite the fact that some of it was
certainly timeliness with this current version of the team. But
if you just want to learn more about random offense
and basketball in general. Obviously, there isn't going to be
a better source for Pacers basketball than just listening to
the head coach of the team.
Speaker 1: You can also find the links to kaylen Patreon and
YouTube channel in now a podcasting YouTube descriptions to go
check those out. Kaylin, thank you so much again. As
you know by now I will be past read you
again Dot Coast.
Speaker 2: Oh, it's a pleasure. Thanks for having me.