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Speaker 1: He's up, Fellasichos. I am Dan Valley coming at you

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with another twenty twenty five twenty twenty six NBA season

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look ahead. We're onto the Indiana Pacers, So you know

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what that means. The goat, the creator, the founder, the CEO,

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the czar of basketball. She wrote, Caitlyn Cooper follow her

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on the socials if you don't already, which would be

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weird if you didn't. At C two underscore Cooper on

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Twitter or X whatever you want to call it, spelled

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exactly as it sounds. She's on Blue Sky as well,

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at Caitlyn May Cooper c Ai t l y n

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May as an m A y Cooper spelled exactly as

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it sounds. Caitlyn, thank you so much for coming back.

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I really appreciate. I wasn't sure if you were gonna

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have another podcast to record with Rick Carlisle or something,

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so I'm glad that we were able to work it out.

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How the heck are you doing?

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Speaker 2: I'm doing well. I have now just noticed that you

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are wearing a basketball, she wrote, t S and I

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am wearing my hard word. Oh look at that for

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I feel like this is a jersey swap.

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Speaker 1: Man jersey swaps are fun. I've never done a jersey swap,

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so this is a big moment for me. So thank

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you for the SICKO shirt. Love it. Thank you so

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much for that. I have to begin here to talk

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about last season because the paces That Pacers team was

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absolutely wild and I said some pretty like inflammatory things

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about them before they turned things around. But was there

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a moment for you, like throughout the course of the

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season where you it kind of resonated with you, like, oh,

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this team is has it? Not that they were necessarily

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going to go to the finals, but like, oh, this

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team is really really special.

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Speaker 2: I mean, I think that there was a lot of

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inflection points that just kept building. So when Andrew and

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Aaron and Ben Shepherd all returned to the lineup, they

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got their point of attack defenders back. That was really

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when the defense started taking a turn. Along with the

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fact that I've told everybody that the defense improved when

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the offense got better. Mar Haliburton started looking more like

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Tyrese Haliburton, and they were taking better care of the

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ball and they were making more shots that allowed them

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to set their pressure. They had their better point of

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attack defenders back healthy in the lineup. That all culminated.

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Pascal Siakam, which I'm sure we'll get too later, made

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a really big leap for them within their defensive system,

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and how important he was as a defender. All those

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things were coalescing. And then just like at an individual

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game level, I remembered when they played the two game

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mini series in Cleveland and tyree didn't play the second

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half of the first game, and Andrew and Ben Sheppard

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were starting the second half and just applying a ton

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of pressure against Darius Garland and Donovan Mitchell, and they

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ended up winning that game, snapping Cleveland's winning streak. And

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then not too long after that, they played Boston and

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Tyresee tied his career high for points in the paint

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and he was just showing a lot of relentlessness as

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a driver. And some of that, of course, is tied

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to the way that Boston prefers to run people off

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the line and really game the variants and how many

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threes they take. But it was a good showing from

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Tyreese in terms of his overall healthiness and what he

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ended up showing later on the playoffs with his more

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willingness to attacks, which is in that way and then

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in March, they just had their own individual March madness

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right where they just kept finding different ways to win games,

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but also with very different heroes on a number of nights.

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So I do tell everybody that. Strangely enough, the moment

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where I was very convinced they were going to the

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NBA Finals wasn't even a game that they played in.

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It was when the Knicks played the Celtics, the game

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that they lost after Jason Tatum had porn had blown

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his achilles. Okay, the way that Boston had to play

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without Jason Tatum, they're running a lot of stacking a

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lot of actions together and running stack pick and rolls,

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and the Knicks that was kind of the first that

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they were switching heavily. They hadn't done that a lot

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throughout the regular season, and it was very evident that,

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like a lot of times, you don't want to be

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doing something for the first time in the playoffs. And

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I thought to myself, if they're struggling to guard that

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now without Tatum, they're really going to struggle to guard

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the Pacers. And it turned out that they did, and

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the Pacers ended up going to the NBA Finals. So

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I think it was all those little things slowly but

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surely build up. I was like, this is going somewhere.

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Plus I'm sure if people followed in the second half

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of the season, I had a couple of tweets where

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I was like, they're scoring more points against per possession

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against Cleveland, Boston, and OKAC than they were against the

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lottery teams. They were playing really poorly against lottery teams

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and that was depressing some of what their offensive, defensive,

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and overall net rating was. So I was like, look

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at what they're doing against the contenders. This could be

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you know, they could be a dark horse here headed

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into the playoffs.

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Speaker 1: I think the moment for me was, and it was late,

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was it was the Timberwolves game Tyrese Haliburton hadn't played,

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was a back injury, whatever he had, and it was

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just the Obie top and game winner, and it was

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either like precursor by or the game that followed is

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where they pressured was it the bulls or the nets?

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And they won that game as well, and it was

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just like it just felt like this team was going

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to go somewhere, and which was wild to think because

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around Thanksgiving, like early December, thinking of where they were

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and you know, blowhards like me sounding the alarm and

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declaring this team of failure and then for them to

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turn around to that extent, and it was transcending at

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that point Tyre's Halbert and being Tyre's Haliburton because he

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wasn't even playing for them during that mini stretch. So

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that team was fun as hell to watch, and I

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think one of the more even though they had a

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player like Tyre's Halbert and a player like Pascal Siakam,

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they were like one of the more disarming title contenders

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or finalists, right, Like, this just wasn't a team even

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when they were really like putting it together. I guess

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from my perspective that you would have picked and said, yeah,

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they're gonna like they're gonna go through the Eastern Conference

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and make it to the finals.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, like I said, it was just like

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I had to go back and watch some of those

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games from November for something that I was working on,

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and it looked like a completely different team, like when

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you look at their defensive cohesiveness ahead of that break

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in the nd season tournament, which I actually think was

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kind of another inflection point really because they had four

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straight days of practice. They were getting guys back. I

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think that allowed them to really regear what they were doing.

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But they don't even look like the same team when

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you go, I can watch that film.

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Speaker 1: What so the defense, like the pressure of it all,

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what they were doing. And you've even cited about how

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they had the highest pickup point in the average pickup

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point in the NBA last season, aside from like the

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pressure and aside from or maybe if it was just this,

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like having a healthy Nie Smith, having a healthy Andrew

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nem Hard, what else went into them? Just they had

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pop eight defense for like sixty percent of the season

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basically were two almost two third. It was fifty seven

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games I think where they were the eighth in defense.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I didn't see that coming, if I'm being completely honest,

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like I wasn't. I wasn't super bullish on that degree

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of a leap happening. I think, like I said, it

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was a multitude of things. You talk about the pressure,

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they actually had the highest average pickup point in the

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playoffs the last two years and second spectrums like twelve

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year database. So they kind of set a trend league

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wide where last year the league as a whole in

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the regular season had the highest average pickup point, where

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a lot more teams are doing this now, So that's

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certainly part of it. But I mentioned it a little bit.

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I think Pascal Siakam was quietly a really big piece

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of it, because if you watch some of the games

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after he was traded, I had some degree of concern.

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I mean, I think he had to adapt certainly to

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the conditioning of it all and the grueling style of

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the pay that the Pacers play on both into the floor.

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But he also like the scheme is just so different

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from what he would have been doing under Nick Nurse

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to what he was doing with the Pacers, and the

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fact that he had a full training camp. I think

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sometimes I can be a cliche, but I think it

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really did make a difference. And when you think about it,

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like last year, two years ago in the Eastern Conference

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Finals when they played Boston, and that when Tyrese was out,

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they had Ben Shepherd at the point of attack, and

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Andrew and Aaron regarding Tatum and Brown and the in

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game three and four, and now to watch him in

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this playoffs and he's guarding Karl Anthony Towns in a

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critical Game six, he guarded Giannis for an entire series,

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like he was somebody that you could put on top wings.

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But where he was really most valuable was the fact

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that he was oftentimes offering operating as a buffer in

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the gaps, a guardrail behind pick and rolls. Like I

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told people this after Myles Turner made his decision to

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go to Milwaukee, that when Miles was the screener defender

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and Pascal was on the floor, if they had a

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top five pick and roll defense equivalent. See when Pascal

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was off the floor, when Miles was a screener defender,

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they had a bottom five pick and roll defense equivalent.

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Sy So, I think a lot of times people think

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that Miles was propping up the defense. And this isn't

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me trying to diminish him. It's just speaking to the

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importance of Siakam and also somewhat the difference between Siakam

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and Obi Top and his defenders at the floor. But

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I think Siaka made a really big difference. Nemhart I've

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been saying for quite some time as the best defender

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on the roster. He came back even better than ever

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from that injury. Was literally defending in an all NBA level,

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if not for the fact that he didn't play in

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enough games and have enough minutes to get some consideration there.

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He just has so many quirks and nuances to his game.

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And then quietly Tyresee made some improvements. He's still the

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fifth best defender in the starting lineup for sure, but

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they were able to switch a little bit more with

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him instead of always having to do, you know, a

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soft show or a hedge. And then they they did

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more peel switching, which allows him to you know, I

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if he gets beat as the on ball defender, he

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peels off to the perimeter, and he's so good at

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blocking threes that actually kind of meshed to his style.

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And they also gave him quite a bit of leeway

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to be helping and playing free safety because he does

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have a knack for sticking his arms in passing lanes,

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so he was allowed to be more active, which I

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think showed some of his strengths a little bit more.

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In addition to they didn't play zone a lot, but

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sometimes they would play zone and they'd put him at

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the bottom in case he got hunted, like multiple possessions

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in a row. So he quietly made some improvements and

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then like another big reason the defense got better because

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they just stopped turning the ball over as much. Like

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it's unprecedented that they passed the ball as much as

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they did while turning it over so little, being top

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five and turnover eight, so that, like I said, that

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has like a cyclical effect where if they don't turn

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the ball over, it's very hard when you're playing at

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a fast pace to hit the brakes and get back

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if you commit a live ball turnover, so they weren't

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having to do that. And then if you're making more shots,

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you get to set that pressure. So I think all

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those were really big contributing factors and what they were

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doing and why they were able to Like, like I said,

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I watched every game they played last year, and I

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didn't think that they would be able to make the

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leap into being a top ten defense.

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Speaker 1: I have so many follow up questions, but I really

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want to ask you what was it like covering this team,

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like during the NBA Finals even throughout that run, and

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what you know, you've talked a lot about, like things

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happening on the court, Like what really sticks with you

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as you're you know, moving forward, like with this team's

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direct excuse me, direction, from that run.

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Speaker 2: Yeah. I mean if you had asked me at this

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time last year we did a look ahead, if I

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thought I'd be at the NBA Finals covering a basketball game,

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I would have to be honest enough to say no

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at that point in time. I think that the thing

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that stands out to me the most is the degree

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to which they were problem solvers. And I think that

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the overall play style of the Pacers definitely is a

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reflection of who Tyres is a player, perhaps more than

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any other team in the NBA, minus maybe Jokic and

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the Denver Nuggets. But when you think about their identity

245
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as a team, I think a lot of that speaks

246
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to Pascal Siakam's trajectory of his entire career. He's always

247
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been a tinkerer, and that's kind of what the Pacers

248
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were as a team. Like even if you look at

249
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the seven game series against the Thunder, look how many

250
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times their defense changed just in that game, Like they

251
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started out next thing against Shay when the Thunder countered by,

252
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Like we're gonna play Hartenstein Moore because the Pacers pressure.

253
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We need a better screener to be getting Shay and

254
00:11:23,480 --> 00:11:27,639
Jalen longer runways to the rim. Then the Pacers were like,

255
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in Game six, well, we're gonna surprisingly pull that pressure back.

256
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We're gonna have Andrew pick up at half court instead

257
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of three quarter court, partly to preserve him because they

258
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knew that and that Tyres was dealing with the calf injury,

259
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but also for the element surprise of it all. And

260
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then they ratcheted up the pressure and the half court

261
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and showed Shay more double teams than he had seen

262
00:11:46,080 --> 00:11:48,320
at any point in time in the playoffs. So like,

263
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those are very big defensive adjustments that they were making

264
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throughout that game, and they obviously also made a lot

265
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of offensive adjustments, but they saved like one big thing

266
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on the defensive end in each one of those series

267
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that made a really big difference. So I think that

268
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the things that stand out to me that I'm gonna

269
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remember the most is the degree of problem solving that

270
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they did, and then also the degree with which that

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they were really a team playing as a team, and

272
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we're so willing to get out of each other's way.

273
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Like I'm sure the enduring possession that I'm going to

274
00:12:16,399 --> 00:12:19,159
remember most from that run was in overtime of Game

275
00:12:19,200 --> 00:12:23,200
one against the Knicks sideline out of bounds play, Tyres

276
00:12:23,480 --> 00:12:26,159
and Siakam end up finishing the possession just standing on

277
00:12:26,200 --> 00:12:29,039
the logo effectively as decoys. And it's a three man

278
00:12:29,039 --> 00:12:31,840
action between Andrew Nemhart, Obi Top and Aaron E. Smith,

279
00:12:32,279 --> 00:12:34,200
And like, how many teams, how many stars do you

280
00:12:34,240 --> 00:12:36,480
know who would be like, Yeah, what's best for the

281
00:12:36,519 --> 00:12:38,240
team right now is for me to stand out of

282
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the way in the situation two of them, and we're

283
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gonna get and we're gonna get Obi Top and a

284
00:12:42,919 --> 00:12:46,120
dunk out of it in overtime and get a road win.

285
00:12:46,559 --> 00:12:48,720
So like, those are the things that I'm gonna definitely

286
00:12:48,720 --> 00:12:51,399
remember the most about that team.

287
00:12:51,440 --> 00:12:55,279
Speaker 1: Looking ahead the Tyres, Haliburt and Achilles injury, Is there

288
00:12:55,360 --> 00:12:58,440
anything about the way he and the Pacers play that

289
00:12:58,519 --> 00:13:01,320
concerns you about what he could look like upon return

290
00:13:01,399 --> 00:13:04,480
or maybe even gives you a vote of confidence as

291
00:13:04,480 --> 00:13:06,399
to what he could look like when he returns, because

292
00:13:06,440 --> 00:13:09,039
this is still considered a serious injury. There's you know,

293
00:13:09,080 --> 00:13:11,159
we have the success story of Kevin Durant kind of

294
00:13:11,159 --> 00:13:13,679
doing it later in his career. When you're playing as

295
00:13:13,879 --> 00:13:17,559
this randomized offense, playing at these really high like fast

296
00:13:17,639 --> 00:13:19,720
clips as the Pacers are. Is there any concern about

297
00:13:19,720 --> 00:13:23,000
what he then looks like in general in a vacuum

298
00:13:23,039 --> 00:13:24,919
for himself, but also just in the context of how

299
00:13:24,919 --> 00:13:26,960
the Pacers want to play with him.

300
00:13:27,200 --> 00:13:28,879
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, I'm not a doctor, so I can't

301
00:13:28,919 --> 00:13:31,480
speak with full confidence, but what I would say there

302
00:13:31,600 --> 00:13:35,240
is he and Kevin, if they're similar at all, it

303
00:13:35,279 --> 00:13:38,159
would just be that they both attack with their jump shot,

304
00:13:38,279 --> 00:13:40,360
like there are more go to movies to attack with

305
00:13:40,399 --> 00:13:43,600
their jump shot rather than with change of speed necessarily

306
00:13:43,600 --> 00:13:47,039
as drivers. So there's that. But also, like to me,

307
00:13:47,200 --> 00:13:49,960
what makes Tyrese the most special is the fact that

308
00:13:50,440 --> 00:13:52,519
even if he comes back from this Achilles' injury, the

309
00:13:52,559 --> 00:13:54,120
wheels in his head are still going to turn his

310
00:13:54,159 --> 00:13:56,679
fast even if his actual wheels aren't turning his fast

311
00:13:56,720 --> 00:13:59,600
in terms of speed. So his quick decision making is

312
00:13:59,639 --> 00:14:02,519
really differentiates him as a point guard. And I think

313
00:14:02,559 --> 00:14:04,759
that's still definitely going to be there. And then I

314
00:14:04,799 --> 00:14:06,919
think it also helps that Nemhor did the degree of

315
00:14:06,960 --> 00:14:09,200
ball handling that he did throughout all of last season.

316
00:14:09,519 --> 00:14:12,480
You know, the Pacers add so much randomness and variation

317
00:14:13,399 --> 00:14:17,600
by throwing as many advanced passes as they do especially

318
00:14:17,679 --> 00:14:20,639
in transition, and that really stems from Tyreese. But because

319
00:14:20,679 --> 00:14:23,440
he's so good at it, teams oftentimes pick him full

320
00:14:23,440 --> 00:14:26,080
court up full court to prevent the hit ahead passes,

321
00:14:26,559 --> 00:14:28,720
So Andrew and TJ do a lot of ball handling.

322
00:14:28,720 --> 00:14:32,000
Tyree's had to get used to learning how to play

323
00:14:32,039 --> 00:14:34,559
off the ball, learn how to dominate as a shooting guard.

324
00:14:34,879 --> 00:14:36,799
So if he does come back, because people will likely

325
00:14:36,840 --> 00:14:39,679
remember and notice that in games five, six, and seven,

326
00:14:40,200 --> 00:14:43,480
right up until that possession when it happened, Andrew was

327
00:14:43,519 --> 00:14:45,679
doing a lot more of the turning the ball down hill.

328
00:14:46,480 --> 00:14:49,919
They weren't having Tyree shove off and turn outlet passes

329
00:14:49,960 --> 00:14:52,440
the other way that much in those games. So the

330
00:14:52,519 --> 00:14:54,679
fact that he's kind of already used to doing that,

331
00:14:54,679 --> 00:14:56,759
that if he did come back a more limited version

332
00:14:56,759 --> 00:14:59,200
of himself, those things bode well in his favor, as

333
00:14:59,200 --> 00:15:01,200
well as the fact that, again I'm not trying to

334
00:15:01,200 --> 00:15:05,080
turn this into speaking poorly of Miles after the fact

335
00:15:05,080 --> 00:15:07,480
and what decision he made, but like I was already

336
00:15:07,559 --> 00:15:09,320
kind of leaning toward the fact that they might need

337
00:15:09,360 --> 00:15:11,000
to make a change at the center position in the

338
00:15:11,000 --> 00:15:15,759
long term, because it's very obvious the tyres enhanced Miles.

339
00:15:16,879 --> 00:15:19,600
It wasn't always obvious the way that Miles enhanced Tyrese,

340
00:15:19,679 --> 00:15:22,080
and you could see that in the OKAC series. Like

341
00:15:22,120 --> 00:15:24,000
certainly would have helped if Miles made some more of

342
00:15:24,000 --> 00:15:26,879
the threes that he took, But they needed to run

343
00:15:26,879 --> 00:15:30,360
more handoffs. They needed better screencraft because of the way

344
00:15:30,440 --> 00:15:34,240
okayc sets their defense because Tyrese himself is not a

345
00:15:34,320 --> 00:15:36,759
super physical guard, despite the fact that he is a

346
00:15:36,799 --> 00:15:41,679
bigger guard, So to beat their help rotations, the handoffs

347
00:15:41,679 --> 00:15:44,200
and playing tyres into speed is what they needed to do,

348
00:15:44,240 --> 00:15:46,799
and yet they weren't really getting the points per chance

349
00:15:46,879 --> 00:15:48,679
yield that they needed to when they went to more

350
00:15:48,720 --> 00:15:51,480
handoffs when Miles was running them. He just still doesn't

351
00:15:51,519 --> 00:15:54,159
really have the craft with that to create advantages. There

352
00:15:54,200 --> 00:15:56,840
is a way to create advantages with handoffs. And then

353
00:15:57,159 --> 00:16:00,799
also just the fact that he wasn't getting into the

354
00:16:00,840 --> 00:16:03,200
paint anymore often when Miles was on the floor than

355
00:16:03,240 --> 00:16:05,440
when he was off. It was still a low volume,

356
00:16:05,519 --> 00:16:08,159
so it wasn't like the spread shooting was opening up

357
00:16:08,240 --> 00:16:10,519
driving lanes against that type of you know, Okay see

358
00:16:10,600 --> 00:16:13,360
Boa constrictor like defense. So if they do make a

359
00:16:13,440 --> 00:16:15,000
change there and it's a big who has a little

360
00:16:15,039 --> 00:16:17,519
bit better screencraft. And again, if Tyree were to come

361
00:16:17,519 --> 00:16:19,679
back more limited, I think that that would help him

362
00:16:19,679 --> 00:16:21,679
as well. So those are kind of the main things

363
00:16:21,720 --> 00:16:23,440
that I would think about there. But I'm sure if

364
00:16:23,440 --> 00:16:26,039
you had an injury expert on here, they might completely

365
00:16:26,120 --> 00:16:28,000
refute what I just said, or might have a lot

366
00:16:28,039 --> 00:16:29,799
better ideas of what that would look like for him

367
00:16:29,799 --> 00:16:30,480
when he comes back.

368
00:16:31,080 --> 00:16:33,080
Speaker 1: Look, I can't say for certain, you don't have an MD.

369
00:16:33,240 --> 00:16:36,279
I don't know. I don't know for sure. The Miles

370
00:16:36,279 --> 00:16:38,799
Turner stuff. The obligatory question I have to answer. You

371
00:16:38,840 --> 00:16:40,960
mentioned that you had been thinking, okay, maybe they would

372
00:16:41,080 --> 00:16:42,759
need to go in a different direction at some point.

373
00:16:43,159 --> 00:16:45,080
Do you think that factored into this process at all

374
00:16:45,159 --> 00:16:48,000
this season? Was it as the Pacers were caught off guard,

375
00:16:48,000 --> 00:16:50,200
as it seems like reports are led to believe, because

376
00:16:50,200 --> 00:16:51,679
it definitely doesn't seem like what was the plan was to

377
00:16:51,679 --> 00:16:54,240
move on from him this summer. But do you think

378
00:16:54,279 --> 00:16:56,919
what you just said where maybe they were waiting those

379
00:16:56,960 --> 00:16:59,320
potential changes over the long term against when they were

380
00:16:59,360 --> 00:17:03,480
deciding whether to pay him. Especially again, it's so hard

381
00:17:03,519 --> 00:17:06,000
to figure out what this would have looked like if

382
00:17:06,039 --> 00:17:08,319
Tyre's Haliburton were healthy, would they have been more likely

383
00:17:08,400 --> 00:17:10,000
to give him more money at that point if they

384
00:17:10,039 --> 00:17:12,359
were considering that maybe he's not the right center for

385
00:17:12,440 --> 00:17:14,039
the future. So just what do you kind of make

386
00:17:14,079 --> 00:17:15,240
of that entire process?

387
00:17:16,559 --> 00:17:18,039
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, if you go back clear to the

388
00:17:18,039 --> 00:17:20,160
Eastern Conference Finals a year ago, and this isn't me

389
00:17:20,279 --> 00:17:22,920
speaking for them, it's me speaking for me. I thought

390
00:17:22,920 --> 00:17:25,759
he was very underwhelming against the series against Boston as well,

391
00:17:25,839 --> 00:17:28,039
for some of the same reasons. Despite the fact that

392
00:17:28,079 --> 00:17:31,640
okayc in Boston defense so differently, the fact that both

393
00:17:31,680 --> 00:17:36,440
are willing to play smaller yet with some stocky forwards

394
00:17:36,440 --> 00:17:38,960
that could push him into the ten foot range, what

395
00:17:39,079 --> 00:17:41,839
he did against mismatches and cross matches in both series,

396
00:17:41,839 --> 00:17:44,359
the fact that he had more turnovers than made threes

397
00:17:44,960 --> 00:17:47,880
in those series. The rebounding of it all. The team

398
00:17:47,920 --> 00:17:50,119
in the NBA Finals this year that had more offensive

399
00:17:50,119 --> 00:17:52,920
rebounds went six and one in the NBA Finals. And

400
00:17:52,960 --> 00:17:56,680
while while like the possession war is becoming more important

401
00:17:56,680 --> 00:17:58,240
than ever, I mean I use the phrase a lot,

402
00:17:58,279 --> 00:18:00,960
the basketball is the most important part about it. I mean,

403
00:18:01,000 --> 00:18:03,039
you're looking like not to bring Tyres into it again,

404
00:18:03,119 --> 00:18:05,880
but like sometimes for the Pacers, the rebounding is as

405
00:18:05,920 --> 00:18:08,400
important because they've gained that by the fact that they

406
00:18:08,440 --> 00:18:11,599
limit turnovers so much with ball security. We'll see how

407
00:18:11,599 --> 00:18:13,720
that goes if Tyres isn't playing this year and what

408
00:18:13,839 --> 00:18:16,279
he's again, what he's like when he comes back. But

409
00:18:16,400 --> 00:18:19,559
like in those ways, the rebounding does become more important.

410
00:18:19,559 --> 00:18:21,920
And certainly that's not all on Miles in the finals,

411
00:18:21,960 --> 00:18:26,359
but that's not his strongest suit either. So when they

412
00:18:26,400 --> 00:18:28,160
got to the trade deadline, though, I was on the

413
00:18:28,160 --> 00:18:29,799
opposite side of the fence because I was like, this

414
00:18:29,920 --> 00:18:32,359
is the best this team has ever played, and the

415
00:18:32,400 --> 00:18:34,880
Tyres era, like, you don't have a starting center on

416
00:18:34,880 --> 00:18:38,559
this roster to replace him. You've already like tried a

417
00:18:38,599 --> 00:18:41,720
million third string centers just in order to have backup health,

418
00:18:42,319 --> 00:18:44,200
and you can't do it midway through the year, like

419
00:18:44,240 --> 00:18:46,000
you have to play this out. And then obviously, like

420
00:18:46,000 --> 00:18:49,000
you said, I do think that both achilles injuries had

421
00:18:49,000 --> 00:18:51,400
a major impact on the move, right, because I don't

422
00:18:51,400 --> 00:18:53,920
think Milwaukee does that move if Dame doesn't blow his achilles,

423
00:18:53,960 --> 00:18:55,960
I doubt, Like I don't think you're waiving and stretching

424
00:18:56,000 --> 00:18:59,440
Damian Lillard if he doesn't blow his achilles and Tyres does.

425
00:18:59,480 --> 00:19:02,160
And while that might not have factored completely into what

426
00:19:02,720 --> 00:19:05,759
number the Pacers offered Miles, I think it. I'm certainly

427
00:19:05,839 --> 00:19:08,359
it probably weighed on both sides to an extent, because

428
00:19:08,359 --> 00:19:10,720
it might have been possible that Miles was like, you know,

429
00:19:11,480 --> 00:19:13,799
I'm a free agent and I want to be able

430
00:19:13,839 --> 00:19:16,759
to remain, as he said, like remain more competitive. Maybe

431
00:19:16,799 --> 00:19:19,480
he thought saw a better path with that with Yannish

432
00:19:19,559 --> 00:19:21,559
right now in the here and now. That remains to

433
00:19:21,559 --> 00:19:24,599
be seen for me personally, but it's possible that might

434
00:19:24,640 --> 00:19:26,720
have been in consideration, in addition to the fact that

435
00:19:26,799 --> 00:19:29,920
they gave him a trade kicker and a fairly you know,

436
00:19:30,039 --> 00:19:31,960
more lucrative contract. I do think that the Pacers were

437
00:19:31,960 --> 00:19:34,240
surprised by it, but obviously he was their free agent,

438
00:19:34,319 --> 00:19:37,079
so they had more time to be negotiating with him.

439
00:19:37,079 --> 00:19:41,119
But I think, like, if you were really really motivated,

440
00:19:42,119 --> 00:19:44,079
they're not going to go into the second apron to

441
00:19:44,119 --> 00:19:46,039
resign Myles Turner. They said they were willing to go

442
00:19:46,079 --> 00:19:48,839
into the tax to a limit to sign Miles Turner.

443
00:19:49,319 --> 00:19:51,279
But like I said, for me personally, I think that

444
00:19:51,319 --> 00:19:53,119
there was still reason to make a change. In the

445
00:19:53,119 --> 00:19:55,920
fact that Tyres is going to be out affords them

446
00:19:55,920 --> 00:19:59,519
the opportunity to take perhaps a step backward now with

447
00:19:59,559 --> 00:20:03,400
the option that they have to maybe take a bigger

448
00:20:03,440 --> 00:20:06,119
step forward later on when Tyre's comes back, depending upon

449
00:20:06,119 --> 00:20:08,079
how they're able to finagle this. Although I will say

450
00:20:09,240 --> 00:20:11,079
I don't think it was part of the plan, nor

451
00:20:11,119 --> 00:20:13,240
do I think it's ideal that he walked for nothing,

452
00:20:13,680 --> 00:20:15,680
Like we might be looking at this differently if they

453
00:20:15,680 --> 00:20:18,319
had been able to find a sign and trade opportunity

454
00:20:18,400 --> 00:20:20,440
with another team. Certainly not great that a player that

455
00:20:20,440 --> 00:20:22,640
you've had for ten years ended up just walking after

456
00:20:22,680 --> 00:20:24,799
he had been in trade rumors for I don't know,

457
00:20:24,960 --> 00:20:26,440
seventy five percent of that time.

458
00:20:27,079 --> 00:20:28,839
Speaker 1: It feels like from the moment he was drafted, he's

459
00:20:28,880 --> 00:20:30,920
just been in trade rumors. So and it wasn't even

460
00:20:30,920 --> 00:20:32,720
a trade that got him. He left him free agency.

461
00:20:32,720 --> 00:20:33,119
Look at that.

462
00:20:33,759 --> 00:20:34,200
Speaker 2: Uh.

463
00:20:34,279 --> 00:20:36,599
Speaker 1: You talked with Rick Kyle Ile on your podcast. You've

464
00:20:36,599 --> 00:20:39,359
written about how when people talk about five out with

465
00:20:39,400 --> 00:20:42,279
the Pacers, there's also a lot of they work from

466
00:20:42,519 --> 00:20:44,920
like the inside and then go back out. How does

467
00:20:44,960 --> 00:20:47,400
that change or does it do they lean into something

468
00:20:47,440 --> 00:20:50,160
like that? Further that that Miles Turner isn't here.

469
00:20:51,240 --> 00:20:52,799
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean there's a lot of different ways they

470
00:20:52,799 --> 00:20:54,400
can look at it. When I've written about it in

471
00:20:54,480 --> 00:20:57,559
my post, they will oftentimes, like especially with Siakam and

472
00:20:57,599 --> 00:21:01,359
Obi Toppin, they'll play four out early looking for those

473
00:21:01,440 --> 00:21:04,799
high seals in transition like Siakam or Ob getting leakouts.

474
00:21:05,279 --> 00:21:07,240
The two of them will seal on the underside to

475
00:21:07,279 --> 00:21:09,799
create a really big pocket for those hit ahead passes.

476
00:21:10,480 --> 00:21:12,519
If that's not there, then they prefer to go to

477
00:21:12,559 --> 00:21:14,880
a five out alignment. Then they might run spread, pick

478
00:21:14,880 --> 00:21:17,000
and roll, and then if they're still playing at the

479
00:21:17,039 --> 00:21:18,359
end of the clock. A lot of times you might

480
00:21:18,359 --> 00:21:20,839
see those guys duck in or try to create like

481
00:21:20,880 --> 00:21:23,480
a gore tot or a seal screen opportunity so that

482
00:21:23,519 --> 00:21:25,319
the guard can get to the basket. They carp open

483
00:21:25,359 --> 00:21:27,839
driving lanes. That's just a very basic way of looking

484
00:21:27,880 --> 00:21:29,799
at it. But like if Isaiah Jackson were to be

485
00:21:29,839 --> 00:21:32,480
the starting five, I'm not sure if that would be

486
00:21:32,559 --> 00:21:35,359
the most ideal for Pascal Siakam. I do think that

487
00:21:35,400 --> 00:21:38,279
there was benefits to having a spread five out on

488
00:21:38,319 --> 00:21:40,440
the floor for him personally, especially with some of the

489
00:21:40,480 --> 00:21:43,920
ways that they feed him in the post. But if

490
00:21:43,960 --> 00:21:46,240
Isaiah's at the top of the key, there can still

491
00:21:46,279 --> 00:21:48,599
be benefits to like let's run a handoff and it's

492
00:21:48,599 --> 00:21:51,880
actually advantageous that your guys playing off of you, and

493
00:21:51,920 --> 00:21:54,279
now maybe we can set up screening angles and handoffs

494
00:21:54,279 --> 00:21:57,799
and our guys have space to get downhill. There's more teams,

495
00:21:57,799 --> 00:21:59,519
like if you look around at Cleveland some things that

496
00:21:59,519 --> 00:22:01,240
they do with and mobile, if you look at the

497
00:22:01,319 --> 00:22:04,920
Raptors with Yaka Perle, certainly Utah with Walker Kessler, like

498
00:22:04,960 --> 00:22:08,160
more teams are playing through the skip pass and actually

499
00:22:08,200 --> 00:22:10,720
throwing skip passes to their non shooting bigs in the

500
00:22:10,720 --> 00:22:13,839
opposite corner, so that then they can play into uphill

501
00:22:13,839 --> 00:22:17,599
handoffs or get two on one situations with those non shooters,

502
00:22:17,680 --> 00:22:20,079
or perhaps look at grenade options, so that would be

503
00:22:20,119 --> 00:22:21,680
another thing. And then if you look at teams like

504
00:22:21,720 --> 00:22:25,519
Atlanta Charlotte in the past, like playing Clint Capel at

505
00:22:25,519 --> 00:22:29,000
the slot, playing Nick Richards at the slot, that's a

506
00:22:29,039 --> 00:22:31,680
longer rotation. And sometimes if you think about it in transition,

507
00:22:31,799 --> 00:22:33,480
like if you run Isaiah to the slot, if a

508
00:22:33,519 --> 00:22:36,279
rim run is an opportunity, you use the guard as

509
00:22:36,279 --> 00:22:40,200
an inbounder, then you don't have a big at the

510
00:22:40,319 --> 00:22:42,559
rim to protect the rim, like, because you have to

511
00:22:42,559 --> 00:22:45,039
remember like the help responsibilities here. You can't just stand

512
00:22:45,039 --> 00:22:47,880
in the lane to infinity, like there's a two nine rule.

513
00:22:47,920 --> 00:22:49,279
You can be in there for two point nine seconds,

514
00:22:49,359 --> 00:22:51,599
you have to get out. If Isaiah's up at the slot,

515
00:22:51,640 --> 00:22:53,519
then that makes a longer rotation to the rim than

516
00:22:53,559 --> 00:22:55,079
from the top of the key or from the corner.

517
00:22:55,400 --> 00:22:57,400
So there's some different stuff that they can toy around with.

518
00:22:57,440 --> 00:22:58,799
I'll be interest to see how that looks. I think

519
00:22:58,839 --> 00:23:01,400
that they can do many of the same things in

520
00:23:01,480 --> 00:23:03,640
terms of like how they get a high low plass

521
00:23:03,680 --> 00:23:05,880
to Pascal if it's Jayhoff at the top of the key.

522
00:23:06,799 --> 00:23:08,599
How they like to put a guard in the dunker

523
00:23:08,640 --> 00:23:10,880
spot with like Miles in the strongside corner. I think

524
00:23:10,920 --> 00:23:12,440
they can do that with Jayhoff if they want to,

525
00:23:12,480 --> 00:23:14,240
And then they can do it with Obi toppin too,

526
00:23:14,240 --> 00:23:16,079
because they like to play five out with Obi at

527
00:23:16,079 --> 00:23:19,000
the five sometimes, so they'll have options. I don't think

528
00:23:19,039 --> 00:23:22,440
any of those guys can do everything that Miles could do.

529
00:23:23,240 --> 00:23:24,960
They're gonna have to make a choice on which one

530
00:23:24,960 --> 00:23:26,720
of the things that Miles could do that they need

531
00:23:26,759 --> 00:23:28,920
at the given moment, which is why they're kind of

532
00:23:29,000 --> 00:23:31,160
charming this as center by committee, if that makes sense.

533
00:23:32,319 --> 00:23:34,880
Speaker 1: Is there any concern about I think part of what

534
00:23:34,880 --> 00:23:38,240
made Isaiah Jackson so intriguing leading into last season is

535
00:23:38,640 --> 00:23:40,640
look at the way he runs the floor. There's some

536
00:23:40,640 --> 00:23:42,759
stuff that he's done, like on the ball going downhill,

537
00:23:42,759 --> 00:23:45,440
which is fun, but has some spring really malleable on

538
00:23:45,480 --> 00:23:48,240
the defensive end coming back from Achilles' injury. With that

539
00:23:48,440 --> 00:23:50,400
to where I just asked the question about, Again, I'm

540
00:23:50,400 --> 00:23:52,720
not a doctor, but it feels like the style that

541
00:23:52,799 --> 00:23:56,559
Tyre's Halberton plays or what his game is really rooted in,

542
00:23:56,960 --> 00:23:59,519
may not be as impacted as much of what Isaiah

543
00:23:59,599 --> 00:24:02,240
Jackson and his skill set is rooted in coming back

544
00:24:02,279 --> 00:24:03,279
from that Achilles injury.

545
00:24:03,400 --> 00:24:05,559
Speaker 2: Yeah, I would agree. I mean most of Isaiah's games

546
00:24:05,559 --> 00:24:09,799
build around vertical pop rim running, his rangy mobile defense,

547
00:24:09,880 --> 00:24:12,000
the fact that if you want to run like a press,

548
00:24:12,680 --> 00:24:14,319
he can be out there and cover a lot of

549
00:24:14,359 --> 00:24:17,559
ground as you mentioned, so a lot of that, like

550
00:24:17,599 --> 00:24:19,759
we said, has built a lot more around athleticism. So

551
00:24:20,200 --> 00:24:22,079
in a lot of ways, he to this point has

552
00:24:22,160 --> 00:24:24,559
kind of been like a small ball center, but more

553
00:24:24,599 --> 00:24:27,359
so a center who is just small, and if you

554
00:24:27,400 --> 00:24:30,279
look at him during since he's been out with the achilles,

555
00:24:30,279 --> 00:24:32,359
there's been a purposeful effort for him to add weight

556
00:24:32,400 --> 00:24:35,440
and to add muscle. So that makes me think that

557
00:24:35,559 --> 00:24:38,240
maybe he and the Pacers are kind of anticipating that

558
00:24:38,279 --> 00:24:42,000
if there is any type of loss of athleticism, will

559
00:24:42,319 --> 00:24:45,799
it will benefit him to be more physical and be

560
00:24:45,920 --> 00:24:48,400
stronger underneath the basket as well. So we'll see how

561
00:24:48,400 --> 00:24:52,039
that pans out. I mean, you know, offseason clips mean everything,

562
00:24:52,160 --> 00:24:55,400
as you know, and Siakam has shared like a nineteen

563
00:24:55,400 --> 00:24:59,079
minute clip of highlights and Isaiah did jump up and

564
00:24:59,119 --> 00:25:02,799
catch some lobs, so clearly he's the exact same plan. Yeah,

565
00:25:02,880 --> 00:25:04,359
I think he did on Twitter the other day. I

566
00:25:04,400 --> 00:25:07,279
think he posted like a nineteen minute video package of

567
00:25:07,319 --> 00:25:08,559
them at his house in Orlando.

568
00:25:10,119 --> 00:25:12,279
Speaker 1: Wow, all right, I say Jackson for most improved Player.

569
00:25:12,319 --> 00:25:16,039
Then it's been confirmed, Jay Huff. The streets are saying

570
00:25:16,039 --> 00:25:18,559
that he is basically Miles Turner at one eleventh of

571
00:25:18,599 --> 00:25:21,240
the cost. Can you explain to all of us why

572
00:25:21,279 --> 00:25:24,000
that's just simply My real question on this is I

573
00:25:24,000 --> 00:25:26,240
find Jay have to be a very interesting player, and

574
00:25:26,279 --> 00:25:28,640
you could play around with the permanent stats he's never

575
00:25:28,759 --> 00:25:31,240
had even last year, this whole he was a member

576
00:25:31,240 --> 00:25:33,240
of the Grizzlies rotation, I think needs to be put

577
00:25:33,240 --> 00:25:35,039
in air quotes just because he was out of the

578
00:25:35,119 --> 00:25:38,039
rotation at one like once they were healthy. Where do

579
00:25:38,079 --> 00:25:40,039
you think they're gonna feel when you're looking specifically at

580
00:25:40,039 --> 00:25:43,680
what would be construed those five out looks with with

581
00:25:43,799 --> 00:25:46,319
a like him being the five, where do you think

582
00:25:46,319 --> 00:25:49,279
they're going to feel the biggest difference going from Miles

583
00:25:49,319 --> 00:25:50,680
Turner to him in those minutes?

584
00:25:51,400 --> 00:25:53,720
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean think the answer would probably be different

585
00:25:53,839 --> 00:25:57,279
in a season with Tyreese versus the season without Tyrese,

586
00:25:57,359 --> 00:26:00,200
because when Tyrese is playing, I think that you're going

587
00:26:00,240 --> 00:26:01,759
to see a difference in the fact that, like if

588
00:26:01,759 --> 00:26:05,960
Tyrese gets blitzed, Miles turn is very comfortable short rolling

589
00:26:06,000 --> 00:26:09,119
to the nail area and shooting from mid range into

590
00:26:09,200 --> 00:26:11,759
that open space. He really is a three level scorer

591
00:26:11,759 --> 00:26:16,319
in a lot of ways. So between he and Pascal

592
00:26:17,039 --> 00:26:19,880
and Tyrese, you typically had a way, especially at least

593
00:26:19,960 --> 00:26:22,759
during the regular season when you're not deeper in the playoffs,

594
00:26:22,759 --> 00:26:24,799
to counter for almost any pick and roll covers that

595
00:26:24,839 --> 00:26:28,599
you came across. I looked, and maybe Jayhoff has some

596
00:26:28,680 --> 00:26:30,640
latent mid range abilities that we're going to see. And

597
00:26:30,640 --> 00:26:32,319
not that the Pacers lean on the midrange a lot,

598
00:26:32,319 --> 00:26:34,039
but I think he's taken like ten shots in his

599
00:26:34,119 --> 00:26:36,920
career from mid range, whereas Miles last year was like

600
00:26:37,119 --> 00:26:40,279
shot forty of seventy from that area. And certainly, if

601
00:26:40,319 --> 00:26:42,160
you get zoned some which the Pacers were a team

602
00:26:42,160 --> 00:26:44,240
that gets zoned a lot, you could throw it to

603
00:26:44,279 --> 00:26:46,039
Miles in the middle and he can make that shot

604
00:26:46,160 --> 00:26:50,480
as well without tyrese. Another thing is that Memphis and

605
00:26:50,519 --> 00:26:52,799
Indiana just played so differently from each other. I mean,

606
00:26:52,839 --> 00:26:55,039
Memphis really played a lot differently from the league as

607
00:26:55,079 --> 00:26:57,960
a whole. They barely ran pick and roll last year.

608
00:26:58,279 --> 00:27:01,960
Speaker 1: So it becomes every team plays the I was told you.

609
00:27:03,200 --> 00:27:05,880
Speaker 2: I was told this too, And like, if you have

610
00:27:06,319 --> 00:27:08,920
TJ and Andrew Nemhart as your point guards, and especially

611
00:27:08,960 --> 00:27:11,799
with them hard, if they're gonna see a lot more unders,

612
00:27:11,799 --> 00:27:15,240
which they potentially could depending upon if Andrew can get

613
00:27:15,240 --> 00:27:17,960
his pull up three to more volume, if people are

614
00:27:18,000 --> 00:27:21,880
ducking under a lot, then Jayhoff is going to need

615
00:27:21,960 --> 00:27:26,319
to be able to be a decent rescreener, and Miles

616
00:27:26,640 --> 00:27:29,079
has never been like, as I mentioned in the Oka

617
00:27:29,200 --> 00:27:31,920
series series never necessarily known for his screen craft, so

618
00:27:31,960 --> 00:27:35,000
maybe maybe that's somewhere where Jayhoff could have an edge.

619
00:27:35,000 --> 00:27:38,519
I mean, he actually, despite not being a regular rotation player,

620
00:27:38,519 --> 00:27:41,680
as you just said, almost had as many Transition two's

621
00:27:41,839 --> 00:27:46,279
last season as Miles. So how that translates in the

622
00:27:46,319 --> 00:27:49,279
Pacers transition attack will be interesting because obviously Miles more

623
00:27:49,279 --> 00:27:53,559
often functioned as a trailer at the top of the key, Jayhoff,

624
00:27:53,759 --> 00:27:56,160
based on those numbers, doing more rim running and he

625
00:27:56,160 --> 00:27:58,319
actually played a higher percentage of his minutes in the

626
00:27:58,319 --> 00:28:02,640
fast zone at fourteen feet per second than Miles Turner did.

627
00:28:02,720 --> 00:28:05,559
So those are kind of the main things that I see,

628
00:28:05,599 --> 00:28:07,759
And obviously it would be dictated what my opinion is

629
00:28:07,799 --> 00:28:10,160
on that based on who the point guards are. But

630
00:28:10,559 --> 00:28:13,759
I found it very hard to project how Jay Hoff

631
00:28:13,759 --> 00:28:17,000
would fit with the Pacers, just because what both teams

632
00:28:17,039 --> 00:28:20,359
did offensively and defensively really wasn't comparable. So it was

633
00:28:20,480 --> 00:28:23,119
very hard for me to like find clips and be like, oh,

634
00:28:23,160 --> 00:28:26,160
you can imagine Jay Hoff plugging in right here, if

635
00:28:26,160 --> 00:28:26,799
that makes sense.

636
00:28:27,400 --> 00:28:29,839
Speaker 1: Yeah, I think what you mentioned before about having him

637
00:28:29,960 --> 00:28:31,799
sort of space to the corners is something that he

638
00:28:31,839 --> 00:28:34,279
would be able to replicate pretty easily if they want

639
00:28:34,319 --> 00:28:37,759
to use that as a like a base after all

640
00:28:37,799 --> 00:28:40,599
of five minute a five minute sample size. What are

641
00:28:40,640 --> 00:28:43,920
your impressions of what James Heisman can do James Wiseman

642
00:28:43,960 --> 00:28:46,880
James Heisman, Wow, James Wiseman can do for this team?

643
00:28:46,920 --> 00:28:49,640
But does he factor into this sort of you said

644
00:28:49,680 --> 00:28:51,519
it before, the center by committee stuff that they're going

645
00:28:51,559 --> 00:28:52,119
to attempt to do.

646
00:28:52,200 --> 00:28:53,880
Speaker 2: I mean, I think they found last year that they

647
00:28:53,880 --> 00:28:55,640
definitely want to be a team that has at least

648
00:28:55,640 --> 00:28:58,519
three centers because when two of them, when there's only

649
00:28:58,599 --> 00:29:04,200
two healthy achilles tendons between the two.

650
00:29:02,400 --> 00:29:05,039
Speaker 1: What is going on in Indiana with all these achilles.

651
00:29:04,599 --> 00:29:07,319
Speaker 2: And he's no kidding, Yeah.

652
00:29:07,440 --> 00:29:09,160
Speaker 1: In Orlando this past season.

653
00:29:09,839 --> 00:29:12,680
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean I think with James, and I don't

654
00:29:12,720 --> 00:29:15,920
mean this to be diminishing of him, but he's a

655
00:29:15,960 --> 00:29:18,240
big who is big. He gives you more size for position,

656
00:29:18,680 --> 00:29:20,960
He's a big target around the rim. He can certainly

657
00:29:21,039 --> 00:29:24,200
run and transition. I notice some stamina stuff with him

658
00:29:24,200 --> 00:29:25,880
where if you have to play him in very long

659
00:29:25,920 --> 00:29:28,559
stints that can start to wane. I think you have

660
00:29:28,599 --> 00:29:31,440
to keep things very simple with him at both ends

661
00:29:31,440 --> 00:29:32,799
of the floor, and like some of the stuff that

662
00:29:32,799 --> 00:29:35,039
I has mentioned, like the pacers, like if Pascal catches

663
00:29:35,039 --> 00:29:37,599
the ball at the elbow, they like to have you know,

664
00:29:37,640 --> 00:29:41,440
Andrew Nemhard, Benedict Matheren in that dunker spot rather than

665
00:29:41,440 --> 00:29:44,559
a big because it creates a wider gap for Pascal

666
00:29:44,680 --> 00:29:47,000
to attack into. But also then if Pascal gets past

667
00:29:47,039 --> 00:29:50,480
his initial guy, the rim protector is a guard. And

668
00:29:50,519 --> 00:29:52,440
that's kind of where the disconnect is a little bit

669
00:29:52,440 --> 00:29:55,400
for me with like Isaiah Jackson and James Wiseman, because

670
00:29:56,480 --> 00:29:58,640
it's harder to space them in the ball side corner

671
00:29:58,640 --> 00:30:00,680
than it would be with Jay Hoff and Obi and

672
00:30:01,240 --> 00:30:04,559
Miles certainly, so that was something that kind of stood

673
00:30:04,559 --> 00:30:06,799
out in preseason. But he ran the floor for them.

674
00:30:06,799 --> 00:30:10,240
He finished. He had a lot of rebounds per minute

675
00:30:10,240 --> 00:30:12,799
in preseason, but some of that was coming in garbage time.

676
00:30:13,279 --> 00:30:15,880
I don't like, I wouldn't project him to be in

677
00:30:15,920 --> 00:30:18,440
the center rotation when the season starts. I mean, Tony

678
00:30:18,480 --> 00:30:20,480
Bradley's still technically in play too. He has a non

679
00:30:20,480 --> 00:30:24,119
guaranteed deal, but I look at it is I would

680
00:30:24,160 --> 00:30:28,279
be surprised if Jay Huff isn't the starter. I given

681
00:30:28,279 --> 00:30:30,240
that Isaiah's coming back from an injury, I just kind

682
00:30:30,240 --> 00:30:31,880
of expect that they might want to ease him back

683
00:30:31,880 --> 00:30:34,200
in as the reserve, and then if they needed to

684
00:30:34,240 --> 00:30:35,720
go to a different look, I would sooner kind of

685
00:30:35,799 --> 00:30:37,799
expect that they would go with Obi and Siakam. To

686
00:30:37,799 --> 00:30:39,559
be honest with you, Oh.

687
00:30:39,359 --> 00:30:42,000
Speaker 1: What a segue to my next question, Caitlin. Even though

688
00:30:42,079 --> 00:30:45,079
whether it's uncertainty or the community of it all at center,

689
00:30:45,319 --> 00:30:48,480
are we gonna see more like a lot more appreciably

690
00:30:48,519 --> 00:30:51,720
more of the Obi Top, Impascal Siakam from courts or

691
00:30:51,759 --> 00:30:53,880
even just maybe Top is not on the floor. I

692
00:30:53,880 --> 00:30:56,440
think even Rick Carlisle mentioned this on your podcast, Like

693
00:30:56,720 --> 00:30:59,079
Siakam at the five type units in general.

694
00:30:59,119 --> 00:31:02,119
Speaker 2: Yeah, typically they'll only go with Siakham at the five,

695
00:31:02,319 --> 00:31:04,559
like they did that late in the second game of

696
00:31:04,599 --> 00:31:07,640
the year against Dallas when they wanted to press, so

697
00:31:07,680 --> 00:31:09,599
they went really small. I think it would have been

698
00:31:09,640 --> 00:31:14,519
like Andrew, Ben Shephard, maybe Matherin, Nie Smith and Siakam

699
00:31:14,960 --> 00:31:16,799
and they were just flying all over the place trying

700
00:31:16,799 --> 00:31:18,720
to force turnovers, which they ended up doing and then

701
00:31:19,000 --> 00:31:21,720
pulling off another one of their March Madness miracle wins.

702
00:31:21,799 --> 00:31:24,599
Usually if they're going small, it's typically with Obi at

703
00:31:24,599 --> 00:31:27,960
the five, and Obi did improve in some ways that

704
00:31:28,079 --> 00:31:30,640
like doing three quarter court fronting, like sometimes they would

705
00:31:31,000 --> 00:31:34,079
try Obi out there against like Zubats or Sabonis because

706
00:31:34,519 --> 00:31:37,359
obviously Obi has a speed advantage against those guys, And

707
00:31:37,920 --> 00:31:39,759
like in the pick and roll, when he's defending, a

708
00:31:39,759 --> 00:31:42,400
lot of times you're just really dependent on the point

709
00:31:42,440 --> 00:31:44,160
of attack defenders just to get over because a lot

710
00:31:44,160 --> 00:31:45,960
of times you just kind of like he'll just stand

711
00:31:45,960 --> 00:31:48,759
behind Sabonis and I kind of hope for the best,

712
00:31:48,839 --> 00:31:51,519
but in terms of seeing more of it, like fun fact,

713
00:31:52,279 --> 00:31:56,759
the Siakam Obi top in front court almost played as

714
00:31:56,799 --> 00:31:59,759
many crunch time minutes in the Eastern Conference in NBA

715
00:31:59,759 --> 00:32:03,359
five as Seakham and Miles Turner, So thirty two minutes

716
00:32:03,400 --> 00:32:05,480
with Siakam and Obi topping and crunch time in those

717
00:32:05,480 --> 00:32:09,079
two series thirty three minutes with Miles and they were

718
00:32:09,119 --> 00:32:11,920
plus the smaller lineup was plus four and thirty two minutes.

719
00:32:12,599 --> 00:32:15,200
The regular lineup with Miles was minus six and thirty three.

720
00:32:15,319 --> 00:32:18,039
So I definitely think it's still in play, Like especially

721
00:32:18,079 --> 00:32:20,039
like let's say Jay Hoff's not having a great game,

722
00:32:20,720 --> 00:32:22,400
they need to lean more offense at the end of

723
00:32:22,440 --> 00:32:24,400
the game. I think that they might close some games

724
00:32:24,440 --> 00:32:26,160
with Obi at the five, just like they did throughout

725
00:32:26,200 --> 00:32:28,839
the playoffs. I'm actually a little bit intrigued to to

726
00:32:28,839 --> 00:32:30,720
see if they there was a brief window in time

727
00:32:30,759 --> 00:32:32,880
where they were playing with like four fours at once

728
00:32:33,279 --> 00:32:36,960
where they were playing Furfey, Walker, Seakham, and Topping and

729
00:32:37,000 --> 00:32:39,640
it became like way too much TJ ball. They did

730
00:32:39,680 --> 00:32:41,440
not win the minutes, but in the sense that you

731
00:32:41,519 --> 00:32:44,480
do give up rim protection when Obi's out there, you're

732
00:32:44,519 --> 00:32:47,640
putting like maximum length on the floor with those other

733
00:32:47,680 --> 00:32:50,079
three guys. So that's kind of interesting to me. And

734
00:32:50,119 --> 00:32:52,359
like I said, just because James and Isaiah coming off

735
00:32:52,359 --> 00:32:54,920
of injuries, it makes sense for it to still be

736
00:32:54,960 --> 00:32:56,920
a feature at least by my eye.

737
00:32:57,960 --> 00:33:00,599
Speaker 1: Uh, how would you flesh out that, I'm I mean,

738
00:33:00,599 --> 00:33:03,039
if if you would go with Furfey and like high

739
00:33:03,079 --> 00:33:05,400
stakes minutes, okay, sure, but how what's the best way

740
00:33:05,400 --> 00:33:08,240
to flesh out the lineups with Obi and Pascal Siakam

741
00:33:08,279 --> 00:33:10,519
in the front court, knowing that you're giving up rim protection,

742
00:33:10,720 --> 00:33:13,240
Like opponent shot seventy four percent at the rim during

743
00:33:13,240 --> 00:33:14,920
those minutes last year with those two on the floor,

744
00:33:15,000 --> 00:33:17,599
the offense was actually the defensive numbers. I think opponent's

745
00:33:17,599 --> 00:33:19,880
didn't shoot two well from three, but the defensive numbers

746
00:33:19,920 --> 00:33:22,440
were pretty good, but their offense was insane during that time.

747
00:33:22,440 --> 00:33:24,480
So I'm just curious how if you were building the

748
00:33:24,519 --> 00:33:28,079
ideal Obi Pascal Siakam lineup, who what are the other

749
00:33:28,160 --> 00:33:29,400
three players you're putting in there?

750
00:33:29,880 --> 00:33:32,279
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, I think when they were doing Furfey

751
00:33:32,279 --> 00:33:34,200
and Walker it was kind of out of necessity because

752
00:33:34,200 --> 00:33:38,720
other players were out. But I'm intrigued to see more

753
00:33:38,759 --> 00:33:40,519
from both of those guys this year, so I think

754
00:33:40,519 --> 00:33:42,359
it would it would probably be Jeris would be one

755
00:33:42,400 --> 00:33:45,319
of them, because Jarris offers probably the most as a

756
00:33:45,359 --> 00:33:48,880
secondary rim protector with his ability to you know, slide

757
00:33:48,920 --> 00:33:52,480
in and out from the corners to the rim. So

758
00:33:52,920 --> 00:33:54,880
I'd like to see Jaris. And then it's got to

759
00:33:54,920 --> 00:33:57,400
be point of attack defender at the second spot, so

760
00:33:57,880 --> 00:34:00,440
it'd have to be Shepherd Ernie Smith, and then most

761
00:34:00,480 --> 00:34:02,119
of the time it's most likely going to be TJ

762
00:34:02,160 --> 00:34:05,480
because normally when those lineups play, it's either at the

763
00:34:05,559 --> 00:34:07,000
end of the first quarter or the beginning of the

764
00:34:07,039 --> 00:34:09,199
second quarter. That's kind of where the bridge happens. So

765
00:34:09,320 --> 00:34:11,840
normally it's a hybrid with the bench, So I think

766
00:34:11,880 --> 00:34:13,400
that's probably what you'd be looking at.

767
00:34:14,800 --> 00:34:18,079
Speaker 1: Thanks to your world class reporting, we got breaking news

768
00:34:18,079 --> 00:34:20,599
on your podcast with Ric Carlisle that Benancmatherin will be

769
00:34:20,639 --> 00:34:24,599
deemed the starting two guard. What is especially in the

770
00:34:24,599 --> 00:34:28,159
context of Tyres Albert not being available this season, what's

771
00:34:28,159 --> 00:34:30,920
the biggest area of development for him that you'll personally

772
00:34:30,960 --> 00:34:31,920
be tracking this year.

773
00:34:32,559 --> 00:34:34,480
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, I think that there's still some things

774
00:34:34,480 --> 00:34:38,039
that are important to his fit with Tyrese that you're

775
00:34:38,039 --> 00:34:41,400
still going to be able to monitor even without Tyrese.

776
00:34:41,480 --> 00:34:44,119
So to this point, since Ben was drafted, they're only

777
00:34:45,079 --> 00:34:48,360
plus zo point three and net rating and over twenty

778
00:34:48,480 --> 00:34:51,079
nine hundred minutes played when mather And and Tyresee are out there.

779
00:34:51,119 --> 00:34:54,199
And we don't need to go really far into that

780
00:34:54,280 --> 00:34:56,559
because this is about this season and Tyreese isn't going

781
00:34:56,599 --> 00:35:00,639
to be playing. But Rick said it on that podcast,

782
00:35:00,719 --> 00:35:03,639
they need Mathern to be a more consistent runner and

783
00:35:03,679 --> 00:35:05,719
sprint to the corners, and he used Sheppard as a

784
00:35:05,760 --> 00:35:07,320
contrast in that. And that was a little bit of

785
00:35:07,360 --> 00:35:09,760
a piece that I wrote here this past week about like,

786
00:35:09,760 --> 00:35:13,440
will the Pacers still be the pacers and that like

787
00:35:13,599 --> 00:35:15,800
Ben Shepherd led the league in the percentage of his

788
00:35:15,920 --> 00:35:19,400
minutes that he played fast, meaning that he is consistently

789
00:35:19,480 --> 00:35:22,719
running to the corners as part of their pace attack.

790
00:35:23,400 --> 00:35:25,280
They're gonna need more of that from Mathern when you

791
00:35:25,320 --> 00:35:27,280
look at what the starting lineup's going to be, especially

792
00:35:27,320 --> 00:35:30,159
because I think that it's possible that they might need

793
00:35:30,199 --> 00:35:32,519
Siakham to be more of a secondary ball handler this

794
00:35:32,599 --> 00:35:35,639
year because they're down, Like it's very reductive to say

795
00:35:35,639 --> 00:35:38,119
they're down by a ball handler without Tyrese, but truly

796
00:35:38,159 --> 00:35:39,960
they are. Like most of the time they would play

797
00:35:40,000 --> 00:35:44,079
with two of the three of TJ Nemhard Tyree. So

798
00:35:44,559 --> 00:35:46,719
if you need Siakam up front, then it becomes even

799
00:35:46,760 --> 00:35:49,519
more important for Ben and Nie Smith to be sprinting

800
00:35:49,519 --> 00:35:51,320
to the corners. And that's something that you're still gonna

801
00:35:51,320 --> 00:35:53,760
be able to watch for, whether Tyree's plays or not.

802
00:35:53,880 --> 00:35:56,360
And then also I think his point of attack defense

803
00:35:56,440 --> 00:35:58,880
needs to improve. He can't give up as many screen rejections.

804
00:35:58,920 --> 00:36:00,960
They need him to be more attended if the ball

805
00:36:00,960 --> 00:36:02,519
pressure is still going to be a feature of what

806
00:36:02,559 --> 00:36:04,440
they do, and this year it's gonna be more important

807
00:36:04,440 --> 00:36:06,480
because to be honest, they got to find a way

808
00:36:06,519 --> 00:36:09,119
to reduce some of Andrew Nemhard's workload. He can't still

809
00:36:09,159 --> 00:36:11,760
be the guy that's gonna guard the other team's best

810
00:36:11,760 --> 00:36:13,840
player for an entire game and be picking up fifty

811
00:36:13,840 --> 00:36:16,719
feet while he's also a primary ball handler. If Ben's

812
00:36:16,760 --> 00:36:18,639
in the starting lineup, he's gonna have to do some

813
00:36:18,679 --> 00:36:21,199
of that because it can't always be Aaron, because Aaron's

814
00:36:21,280 --> 00:36:23,599
very foul prone, number one, when he's guarding on ball

815
00:36:23,679 --> 00:36:25,840
full length to the floor. But also because Aaron has

816
00:36:25,880 --> 00:36:28,360
to take some of those assignments from Pascal. Like you

817
00:36:28,440 --> 00:36:30,800
got to like, Andrew and Pascal are gonna have a

818
00:36:30,840 --> 00:36:33,000
lot on their shoulders this year, so you're gonna need

819
00:36:33,039 --> 00:36:34,800
Aaron to take some of that from Pascal. You're gonna

820
00:36:34,800 --> 00:36:37,000
need Ben to take some of it from Andrew. So

821
00:36:37,360 --> 00:36:39,480
that part, defensively, you're still gonna be able to keep

822
00:36:39,480 --> 00:36:42,039
an eye on, because I do I still think Ben's

823
00:36:42,079 --> 00:36:43,880
on ball defense is actually still a little bit of

824
00:36:43,920 --> 00:36:46,039
ahead of his off ball defense, but it still has

825
00:36:46,039 --> 00:36:49,199
a ways to go. So those two things in particular,

826
00:36:49,559 --> 00:36:53,079
and if he made progress with them, then maybe in

827
00:36:53,119 --> 00:36:54,920
a year from now, you could make a case again

828
00:36:55,360 --> 00:36:56,960
it would be a long shot for me. I don't

829
00:36:57,000 --> 00:36:59,559
think that there's a strong compelling case that when Tyres

830
00:36:59,639 --> 00:37:03,519
is healthy, that Mathern should start in front of Andrew.

831
00:37:03,559 --> 00:37:05,760
I really can't see that one. But maybe if he

832
00:37:05,800 --> 00:37:07,599
does these other things, you can make a case because

833
00:37:07,599 --> 00:37:09,920
he is the more versatile score of starting in front

834
00:37:10,280 --> 00:37:12,559
I'm Nie Smith, but he'd really have to show a

835
00:37:12,559 --> 00:37:14,360
lot more consistency with it. But those are the main

836
00:37:14,400 --> 00:37:16,760
things that I'd be looking at you.

837
00:37:16,760 --> 00:37:18,519
Speaker 1: You did mention that there are things they could do

838
00:37:18,800 --> 00:37:21,159
that would scale to when Tyre's Halburton's back, to get

839
00:37:21,159 --> 00:37:23,239
an idea of how Ben mcmathrin fits into it all,

840
00:37:23,519 --> 00:37:25,440
But how feasible is it or how much change are

841
00:37:25,480 --> 00:37:28,639
you bracing for to see from them on the court

842
00:37:28,679 --> 00:37:31,079
without Tyres Halibert, Like how much harder does it get

843
00:37:31,119 --> 00:37:35,480
to play there to typify their randomization on offense when

844
00:37:35,519 --> 00:37:38,119
he is not going to be there at all? And

845
00:37:38,159 --> 00:37:40,199
then just the second layer to that question is then

846
00:37:40,400 --> 00:37:43,920
how difficult Let's say Ben Mathern has like a great

847
00:37:43,920 --> 00:37:46,199
season this year, but like, how difficult does it get

848
00:37:46,199 --> 00:37:49,039
to judge like what he is to this team with

849
00:37:49,199 --> 00:37:51,360
Tyre's Haliburton When You're just not going to see that

850
00:37:51,440 --> 00:37:52,159
at all this year.

851
00:37:53,159 --> 00:37:57,440
Speaker 2: I mean, I think that they're still stylistically gonna want

852
00:37:57,440 --> 00:37:59,360
to play up tempo, which is where a lot of

853
00:37:59,400 --> 00:38:02,400
the randomness comes from. And still if a play stalls out,

854
00:38:02,800 --> 00:38:05,119
that's the other place where the randomness comes from, the

855
00:38:05,159 --> 00:38:08,679
pace after the triggers that they go to to reignite

856
00:38:08,679 --> 00:38:11,119
the offense, and that is the spot where it gets

857
00:38:11,199 --> 00:38:13,480
kind of glitchy for Ben, that's where it leads to

858
00:38:13,559 --> 00:38:15,920
catch and hold. Like Todd Whitehead had that really great

859
00:38:16,039 --> 00:38:19,639
chart that he made after my podcast showing ranking the

860
00:38:19,639 --> 00:38:21,880
Pacers players in terms of their catch and hold time

861
00:38:21,920 --> 00:38:24,280
and how quickly they make a decision, and Ben was last.

862
00:38:24,880 --> 00:38:26,679
So I think that you'll still be able to keep

863
00:38:26,719 --> 00:38:28,559
an eye on that. Like they might not be able

864
00:38:28,599 --> 00:38:31,360
to do it at the same level without tyres, but

865
00:38:31,440 --> 00:38:33,840
I think that those things they are still going to

866
00:38:33,920 --> 00:38:37,159
try to do. Like whether I go back and forth

867
00:38:37,159 --> 00:38:39,199
about whether they'll run as much pick and roll or not,

868
00:38:39,599 --> 00:38:41,920
I know you said that in the outline, and part

869
00:38:41,960 --> 00:38:44,000
of me thinks, well, it might need to be less

870
00:38:44,079 --> 00:38:46,599
because if they're seeing a lot of unders, maybe that

871
00:38:46,679 --> 00:38:50,519
leads them to do more interior injuries to Siakam, maybe

872
00:38:50,519 --> 00:38:52,880
it becomes more five out just drive it and that's

873
00:38:52,920 --> 00:38:55,719
more touches for Ben. But then on the other side

874
00:38:55,719 --> 00:38:57,320
of it, and like if they are seeing more unders,

875
00:38:57,400 --> 00:39:00,000
especially with Andrew, like Andrew has a knack for foot fakes,

876
00:39:00,000 --> 00:39:01,920
should be able to reject in some of those situations.

877
00:39:01,920 --> 00:39:04,079
But they might have to do more rescreens. And if

878
00:39:04,079 --> 00:39:08,280
they're consistently rescreening, which is a high value points per

879
00:39:08,320 --> 00:39:11,920
possession play rescreens are, then that could mean a lot

880
00:39:11,960 --> 00:39:15,480
more screens. So that could go either way, but those

881
00:39:15,519 --> 00:39:16,840
are kind of the things that stand out to me.

882
00:39:16,920 --> 00:39:19,159
You might see more handoffs, more pitches because those make

883
00:39:19,199 --> 00:39:21,360
it a little bit easier to you know, pitch it

884
00:39:21,559 --> 00:39:24,079
the guy goes under. It's an automatic rescreen. You twist

885
00:39:24,119 --> 00:39:28,559
it to get into offense too. So we'll see. But

886
00:39:28,880 --> 00:39:31,800
I think I think that you'll still be able to

887
00:39:31,840 --> 00:39:34,119
evaluate stuff from Bennets signing to be perfect because like

888
00:39:34,159 --> 00:39:38,920
I said, Ben, like I said, is more catch and hold.

889
00:39:38,960 --> 00:39:42,360
He's better at playing out of plays, tyresee, very quick

890
00:39:42,400 --> 00:39:45,519
decision maker, better at playing at random. But the pacers

891
00:39:45,519 --> 00:39:47,320
are still going to be doing both of those things.

892
00:39:47,360 --> 00:39:50,039
And to be honest, if Ben showed like he had

893
00:39:50,079 --> 00:39:54,119
a tremendous season playing his style, then maybe they're more

894
00:39:54,159 --> 00:39:57,440
amenable to that. Right, Like, you know, the Oklahoma City

895
00:39:57,440 --> 00:39:59,440
Thunder didn't have to play like the Indiana Pacers to

896
00:39:59,480 --> 00:40:03,360
win a champion. Why because they have other worldly talent

897
00:40:03,400 --> 00:40:06,239
in Shake Gildes Alexander, Like, you're willing to do things

898
00:40:06,280 --> 00:40:09,400
when it's a you know, an extraordinary outlier. So I

899
00:40:09,480 --> 00:40:12,039
don't think Ben's on the same level as Shay, But like,

900
00:40:12,119 --> 00:40:13,920
if he showed more of that and they could blend

901
00:40:13,960 --> 00:40:15,639
the two things together, like I think that they would

902
00:40:15,679 --> 00:40:17,360
be open to it. It's just at what level is

903
00:40:17,400 --> 00:40:19,639
he doing at at to make it worth it to

904
00:40:19,719 --> 00:40:24,320
sacrifice their overall efficiency play style, the way that they

905
00:40:24,320 --> 00:40:26,119
want to play deep into the roster, that their way

906
00:40:26,119 --> 00:40:28,719
that they want to play phonetically at both ends of

907
00:40:28,760 --> 00:40:29,159
the floor.

908
00:40:30,039 --> 00:40:31,519
Speaker 1: Well, we talked a little bit about this before we

909
00:40:31,559 --> 00:40:35,159
hopped on about how the league might be perceiving these

910
00:40:35,239 --> 00:40:39,559
guards who aren't playmakers for others and they're not quite wings,

911
00:40:40,559 --> 00:40:43,599
you know, different players, but Anthony Simon's Collin Sexton, the

912
00:40:43,599 --> 00:40:45,719
stuff that went on with Cam Thomas and restricted free agency,

913
00:40:45,800 --> 00:40:49,039
Jalen Green getting a very lucrative deal, but a very

914
00:40:49,039 --> 00:40:52,320
short term lucrative deal. Is there anything like when we're

915
00:40:52,320 --> 00:40:56,440
just talking about that general discussion of guards who aren't

916
00:40:56,440 --> 00:40:59,360
wings and also aren't like primary playmaking material. Is there

917
00:40:59,360 --> 00:41:02,519
anything about Mathrin where you see him being able to

918
00:41:02,559 --> 00:41:06,320
separate himself from that discussion when we're talking about not

919
00:41:06,400 --> 00:41:08,400
through the lens of specifically his next contract, but if

920
00:41:08,400 --> 00:41:10,239
they don't agree to an extension, he is someone who's

921
00:41:10,280 --> 00:41:12,079
going to be on that semi open market as a

922
00:41:12,079 --> 00:41:13,000
restricted free agent.

923
00:41:13,800 --> 00:41:16,840
Speaker 2: Yeah, Ben is not a player of this size in

924
00:41:16,920 --> 00:41:20,679
terms of Andrew Wiggins or Paul George. But something that

925
00:41:20,719 --> 00:41:22,679
Andrew Wiggins and Paul George have both shown in the

926
00:41:22,679 --> 00:41:25,960
playoffs is that they can level up as rebounders. So

927
00:41:26,440 --> 00:41:28,960
Matherin has late in ability as a rebounder. There was

928
00:41:29,000 --> 00:41:31,079
a portion when he was when he was starting with

929
00:41:31,119 --> 00:41:34,840
the other group, he was crashing hard. I think that

930
00:41:34,840 --> 00:41:37,559
that was also part of the reason why their defense

931
00:41:37,639 --> 00:41:39,599
was improving, is that they were rebounding better when he

932
00:41:39,639 --> 00:41:41,920
was on the floor. So he does offer you that,

933
00:41:42,000 --> 00:41:43,800
and I honestly think that that might be something that

934
00:41:43,880 --> 00:41:45,920
shows up a little bit more this season because the

935
00:41:45,920 --> 00:41:48,920
Pacers were not a heavy crash team. They prefer to

936
00:41:48,960 --> 00:41:52,159
get back and set their transition defense. But when you think,

937
00:41:52,440 --> 00:41:54,320
like I said, the basketball is the most important part

938
00:41:54,360 --> 00:41:58,199
about basketball. If they turn the ball over more without Tyrese,

939
00:41:58,719 --> 00:42:01,079
then they might want to be generating some more second

940
00:42:01,119 --> 00:42:03,679
chance opportunities to make up for that, make up for

941
00:42:03,719 --> 00:42:06,280
the lack of shooting, make up for everything offensively, they

942
00:42:06,360 --> 00:42:08,880
might want to be getting more offensive rebounds. So you

943
00:42:08,960 --> 00:42:11,760
might actually be seeing mather and crashing a little bit

944
00:42:11,760 --> 00:42:13,639
more on both ends of the floor to ensure that

945
00:42:13,639 --> 00:42:16,639
they're doing that in valuing possession, So I think that

946
00:42:16,679 --> 00:42:19,239
when you're looking at, you know, somebody like I mentioned,

947
00:42:19,239 --> 00:42:22,719
like what Collin Sexton's trade value just was, Like Ben

948
00:42:22,760 --> 00:42:25,440
I think has more upside overall. But that's definitely an

949
00:42:25,480 --> 00:42:27,440
area when we're looking at some of these other guys

950
00:42:27,480 --> 00:42:30,440
and how the league's valuating him, that he could potentially

951
00:42:30,519 --> 00:42:32,000
still differentiate himself in.

952
00:42:33,119 --> 00:42:35,639
Speaker 1: I think the default take on Andrew Nemhart at this point,

953
00:42:35,679 --> 00:42:37,320
as we know, he's going to have to just shoulder

954
00:42:37,360 --> 00:42:40,559
a lot more. Yeh, what specifically should we be looking

955
00:42:40,599 --> 00:42:42,800
for him to shoulder more of now? Like what is

956
00:42:42,840 --> 00:42:44,840
the biggest change or some of the biggest changes that

957
00:42:44,880 --> 00:42:48,960
he's going to experience with life sounds tyrs albert I.

958
00:42:48,880 --> 00:42:50,960
Speaker 2: Would tell everybody to go back and watch Game five

959
00:42:51,000 --> 00:42:55,079
against the Thunder series. After Tyres had kind of tweaked

960
00:42:55,559 --> 00:42:58,679
his calf. You watch, and they had shifted most of

961
00:42:58,719 --> 00:43:01,280
the ball handling to Andrew by the end of that game,

962
00:43:01,679 --> 00:43:04,480
and by the fourth quarter of Game five, like Andrew

963
00:43:04,559 --> 00:43:07,280
was exhausted. He committed I don't know how many turnovers

964
00:43:07,280 --> 00:43:09,000
in the fourth quarter, and mostly when you watch it, it

965
00:43:09,079 --> 00:43:10,559
was like he just didn't have anything left to give.

966
00:43:11,079 --> 00:43:13,400
So that was when they come back in Game six

967
00:43:13,480 --> 00:43:15,960
to Indy and they pulled all that pressure back because

968
00:43:15,960 --> 00:43:17,920
they knew, like, we have to preserve, we have to

969
00:43:17,960 --> 00:43:20,519
protect Andrew because he's got to be doing so much

970
00:43:20,519 --> 00:43:23,000
more ball handling with the way that Tyres is playing

971
00:43:23,039 --> 00:43:25,840
in the way that he's limited. So they pulled back

972
00:43:25,880 --> 00:43:28,199
the pressure so that he would have a lower pickup point,

973
00:43:28,199 --> 00:43:29,519
and then they ended up doing a little bit more

974
00:43:29,559 --> 00:43:32,159
trapping in the half court. Every game of the regular

975
00:43:32,199 --> 00:43:33,639
season is not going to be Game five of the

976
00:43:33,719 --> 00:43:35,679
NBA Finals, but they have to find a way that

977
00:43:35,719 --> 00:43:37,320
it isn't going to be Game five of the NBA

978
00:43:37,400 --> 00:43:40,000
finals for him, because like I've told everybody that I've

979
00:43:40,000 --> 00:43:42,559
podcasted with about this that, like, look around the league,

980
00:43:42,559 --> 00:43:45,840
how many players do you know who are doing almost

981
00:43:45,880 --> 00:43:48,679
all of the primary initiation because again, they're down by

982
00:43:48,719 --> 00:43:49,920
a point guard. Like, it's not going to be as

983
00:43:49,960 --> 00:43:52,519
many minutes with two point guards on the floor doing

984
00:43:52,559 --> 00:43:55,760
all the primary initiation, also guarding the other team's best player,

985
00:43:55,880 --> 00:43:58,400
not only guarding that player, but picking them up at

986
00:43:58,440 --> 00:44:04,199
an average of forty feet as that player ever existed exactly,

987
00:44:04,239 --> 00:44:06,639
Like it's not reasonable because if you go back and

988
00:44:06,679 --> 00:44:10,119
watch when they played Atlanta, they started Jaris in the

989
00:44:10,119 --> 00:44:11,639
first game, and in the second game, they're like, we

990
00:44:11,719 --> 00:44:15,039
have to start Ben Shepard because we can't have Andrew

991
00:44:15,400 --> 00:44:18,920
being guarded by Dyson Daniels with Dyson Daniels going you know,

992
00:44:19,639 --> 00:44:23,519
under actions repeatedly against Andrew and then also be expecting

993
00:44:23,639 --> 00:44:26,800
Andrew to guard Trey Young and and full court press.

994
00:44:26,840 --> 00:44:28,599
So they started Ben Sheppard in the second game so

995
00:44:28,599 --> 00:44:30,840
that he could be doing that. Ben Shepherd started in

996
00:44:30,920 --> 00:44:32,679
the Eastern Conference finals a year ago, so he could

997
00:44:32,679 --> 00:44:34,679
be doing more of the point of attack stuff. I

998
00:44:34,679 --> 00:44:36,800
think it's gonna be easier for the Pacers to find

999
00:44:37,079 --> 00:44:38,840
none of them are going to be at nem Hard's level,

1000
00:44:39,000 --> 00:44:40,599
but I think it will be easier for them to

1001
00:44:40,679 --> 00:44:43,840
try to find guys to throw at other top options

1002
00:44:43,840 --> 00:44:46,199
and apply that pressure. Then it will be for them

1003
00:44:46,239 --> 00:44:48,920
to manufacture people who can initiate the offense and do

1004
00:44:49,000 --> 00:44:53,880
as much handling with Guile in addition to Nemhard and TJ.

1005
00:44:54,800 --> 00:44:56,440
So the things that I'm going to be watching for

1006
00:44:56,559 --> 00:44:59,559
is how did they lighten that load. I even wrote

1007
00:44:59,559 --> 00:45:02,239
a whole piece about this that like I talked about

1008
00:45:02,239 --> 00:45:04,960
how he's like so sneaky good at quote unquote stealing

1009
00:45:05,000 --> 00:45:07,800
the tip at the start of games, and that you'll

1010
00:45:07,800 --> 00:45:09,719
literally be able like it will be somewhat of a

1011
00:45:09,719 --> 00:45:12,039
communication of what the pacers are going to do with

1012
00:45:12,119 --> 00:45:14,840
him based on where he's standing at the center circle.

1013
00:45:15,079 --> 00:45:17,079
Because all of last year he would be opposite of

1014
00:45:17,119 --> 00:45:19,519
the referee. He would assume that Miles Turner was going

1015
00:45:19,559 --> 00:45:21,320
to lose the tip and he would jump to the

1016
00:45:21,320 --> 00:45:23,760
opposing team's side and intercept it get the ball, like

1017
00:45:23,800 --> 00:45:25,679
he did this a lot of times. If you watch

1018
00:45:25,679 --> 00:45:28,599
the clip package that I made now this year, I

1019
00:45:28,760 --> 00:45:31,079
ask myself, like will he still be standing there or

1020
00:45:31,079 --> 00:45:33,039
will he be back ready to receive the ball as

1021
00:45:33,039 --> 00:45:34,960
the point guard. And that may seem like a tiny

1022
00:45:35,000 --> 00:45:38,559
stupid thing, but it actually communicates a lot because in Atlanta,

1023
00:45:38,639 --> 00:45:40,840
they still had him opposite the referee because they still

1024
00:45:40,920 --> 00:45:44,039
valued like the quote unquote special Andrew Nemhart stuff, and

1025
00:45:44,079 --> 00:45:46,920
they had Pascal Siakam back ready to receive the ball.

1026
00:45:47,280 --> 00:45:49,960
So it's like, is more gonna be on Pascal or

1027
00:45:50,039 --> 00:45:53,119
is more gonna be on Andrew? My general sense is

1028
00:45:53,119 --> 00:45:54,840
and this part makes me a little bit sad. I

1029
00:45:54,880 --> 00:45:57,719
hope he's able to maintain balance with both. But I

1030
00:45:57,800 --> 00:46:00,679
love I wrote the piece in December about him pulling

1031
00:46:00,679 --> 00:46:04,000
the chair on defense that has since blown up a

1032
00:46:04,039 --> 00:46:06,840
lot on the internet. I made t shirts about it too.

1033
00:46:06,960 --> 00:46:09,639
But I love the little nuances of all the things

1034
00:46:09,719 --> 00:46:12,000
that Andrew does on the court, and I hope that

1035
00:46:12,079 --> 00:46:15,000
with him becoming a starting point guard that they don't

1036
00:46:15,039 --> 00:46:17,320
have to lose some of those some of the special

1037
00:46:17,400 --> 00:46:21,159
things that he does. But part of me thinks that

1038
00:46:21,159 --> 00:46:23,119
that may end up needing to happen, just from an

1039
00:46:23,239 --> 00:46:25,199
energy and stam at a standpoint.

1040
00:46:25,760 --> 00:46:27,519
Speaker 1: And you have kind of mentioned that you think it's

1041
00:46:27,559 --> 00:46:30,480
easier to replace like the pressure specifically that he'll bring

1042
00:46:30,519 --> 00:46:32,440
on defense with the players they have, and so I'm

1043
00:46:32,480 --> 00:46:34,400
just kind of curious, is there when you look at

1044
00:46:34,400 --> 00:46:36,480
players who are doing it from different positions and theyre

1045
00:46:36,480 --> 00:46:39,639
have different sizes, is there a connective quality within those

1046
00:46:39,679 --> 00:46:42,320
players that goes into the Pacers being able to defend

1047
00:46:42,639 --> 00:46:44,400
the way that they do when they have those high

1048
00:46:44,440 --> 00:46:45,119
pickup points.

1049
00:46:47,679 --> 00:46:50,519
Speaker 2: It's the fact that I talked about this briefly when

1050
00:46:50,599 --> 00:46:53,800
I went over and guessed it on Samson Folks podcast

1051
00:46:53,880 --> 00:46:57,079
at Raptors Republic last week that we were talking about

1052
00:46:57,119 --> 00:46:59,000
the fact that the Raptors also have a high pickup

1053
00:46:59,000 --> 00:47:01,320
point and I was like, well, don't have Davian Mitchell anymore.

1054
00:47:01,320 --> 00:47:04,039
Who's gonna do that? And Samson said, well, Emmanuel Quickly

1055
00:47:04,400 --> 00:47:05,960
has put in a lot of effort to try to

1056
00:47:06,000 --> 00:47:08,159
be that person for next season. And I said, okay, well,

1057
00:47:08,239 --> 00:47:11,000
let's say that Emmanuel Quickly is a superstar in that role.

1058
00:47:11,039 --> 00:47:13,760
What happens when he passes it? Like, are RJ. Barrett

1059
00:47:13,760 --> 00:47:16,840
and Brandon Ingram then gonna pick up at half court?

1060
00:47:17,000 --> 00:47:19,519
Like is that something that I should be expecting because

1061
00:47:19,559 --> 00:47:24,159
I'm thinking probably not. And with the Pacers, literally everyone

1062
00:47:24,199 --> 00:47:26,800
will do it like it's a ten to eleven man

1063
00:47:26,840 --> 00:47:29,280
effort where you're gonna see people picking up if their

1064
00:47:29,280 --> 00:47:30,880
guy has the ball, Like I mean, you saw it

1065
00:47:30,920 --> 00:47:33,719
when they played Boston, Pascal and Obie were picking up

1066
00:47:33,719 --> 00:47:35,599
when they were guarding Drew Holiday. If Drew Haliday was

1067
00:47:35,599 --> 00:47:37,199
the ball handler, they guarded him the full length of

1068
00:47:37,239 --> 00:47:40,519
the floor. Pascal did that throughout the playoffs if some

1069
00:47:40,559 --> 00:47:42,960
teams had to go to multiple ball handlers when the

1070
00:47:42,960 --> 00:47:44,920
ball got moved, he did it. When they were in Paris,

1071
00:47:44,920 --> 00:47:47,440
Miles Turner picked up Victor Webbin Yama is the ball

1072
00:47:47,480 --> 00:47:49,880
handler the full length of the floor. So I think

1073
00:47:49,880 --> 00:47:52,440
that that's why it's as effective for them as it is,

1074
00:47:52,440 --> 00:47:54,480
is that they're willing to play ten to eleven guys,

1075
00:47:54,480 --> 00:47:57,199
so they're able to maintain the stamina of doing that.

1076
00:47:57,280 --> 00:48:00,599
But also all ten to eleven guys have and are

1077
00:48:00,639 --> 00:48:01,559
willing to do it.

1078
00:48:02,840 --> 00:48:06,039
Speaker 1: Aside from just the getting back to the not having

1079
00:48:06,039 --> 00:48:08,519
Tyrese Haliburton of it all, aside from just the volume

1080
00:48:08,559 --> 00:48:10,639
with which they're going to interact, How do you see

1081
00:48:10,719 --> 00:48:13,320
the or how should we expect the interplay between Andrew

1082
00:48:13,320 --> 00:48:17,000
Nemhard and Pascal Siakam on offense to change without Hallie.

1083
00:48:17,880 --> 00:48:20,320
Speaker 2: That's a good question. I mean a lot of times

1084
00:48:20,360 --> 00:48:25,440
they liked running three man actions between Tyresee, Nemhart, and

1085
00:48:25,480 --> 00:48:27,119
Pascal at the end of game, so it'd be like

1086
00:48:27,400 --> 00:48:29,760
if people can picture it. They like running wedge rolls,

1087
00:48:30,199 --> 00:48:32,800
so like Nemhard would come up to the elbow area

1088
00:48:32,880 --> 00:48:35,360
and set a little backscreen where Pascal has the option

1089
00:48:35,440 --> 00:48:38,800
to slide to the block, and if that isn't there,

1090
00:48:38,840 --> 00:48:42,400
then Pascal goes straight across and sets the wedge roll

1091
00:48:42,480 --> 00:48:45,320
screen for Tyresee is the ball handler. That was pretty

1092
00:48:45,360 --> 00:48:47,880
much their go to action and it worked really well

1093
00:48:47,880 --> 00:48:50,599
because most of the time, if a team wants to

1094
00:48:50,599 --> 00:48:53,639
try to cheat the Andrew screen by sliding under it,

1095
00:48:54,199 --> 00:48:56,760
then you're getting an advantage when Pascal, that defender is

1096
00:48:56,760 --> 00:48:58,400
going to be out of position when Pascal goes to

1097
00:48:58,400 --> 00:49:01,360
set the wedge roll, they're going to be and then

1098
00:49:01,920 --> 00:49:04,920
Tyresee is able to just dribble into a shot. So

1099
00:49:05,519 --> 00:49:08,199
if you're having to reverse those roles, certainly somebody else.

1100
00:49:08,599 --> 00:49:10,920
Andrew's a very physical guard screener, but somebody else can

1101
00:49:11,000 --> 00:49:14,320
step in there and set the backscreen for Siakam, you

1102
00:49:14,400 --> 00:49:16,960
might still get the same benefit where the screener defender

1103
00:49:17,039 --> 00:49:19,119
is late to the screen. But then it goes back

1104
00:49:19,119 --> 00:49:21,519
to what I said, how often are other teams gonna,

1105
00:49:21,800 --> 00:49:23,679
you know, go under on this and you're gonna be

1106
00:49:23,679 --> 00:49:26,840
able to trust like and they're comfortable using Pascal as

1107
00:49:26,840 --> 00:49:28,920
a screener, But are you comfortable using him as a

1108
00:49:28,920 --> 00:49:31,800
screener who has to show more craft against an under

1109
00:49:32,159 --> 00:49:34,840
than what was ever necessary with Tyres and like, Let's

1110
00:49:34,840 --> 00:49:37,639
also not forget Tyree's very high at the top of

1111
00:49:37,639 --> 00:49:40,719
the list in terms of screen rejections, so sometimes the

1112
00:49:40,800 --> 00:49:42,679
quality of the screen doesn't matter because he's not even

1113
00:49:42,760 --> 00:49:45,280
using it. So that's kind of a thing. But I

1114
00:49:45,280 --> 00:49:47,480
think that I still expect to see like it might

1115
00:49:47,599 --> 00:49:50,159
change a little bit too, because if Andrew's being guarded

1116
00:49:50,159 --> 00:49:53,480
by like Dyson Daniels, is advantageous for you to be

1117
00:49:53,559 --> 00:49:57,400
running like the empty side actions between Pascal and Andrew,

1118
00:49:58,800 --> 00:50:01,599
Maybe yes, but maybe no. Like in the past, Andrew

1119
00:50:01,599 --> 00:50:03,840
a lot of times would have a weaker defender. So

1120
00:50:04,280 --> 00:50:08,239
if if Andrew comes up and screens for Pascal, then

1121
00:50:08,360 --> 00:50:11,719
you're getting the benefit of you know, not Diyson Daniels,

1122
00:50:12,400 --> 00:50:15,079
So that that would be a tiny thing. But I mean,

1123
00:50:15,280 --> 00:50:17,159
they like to be a team that has a lot

1124
00:50:17,199 --> 00:50:18,960
of guys. They're able to do a lot of things.

1125
00:50:18,960 --> 00:50:20,719
So you know, I guess if it were a case

1126
00:50:20,760 --> 00:50:23,199
where oh, Trey Young's guarding Aaron Smith, they would probably

1127
00:50:23,199 --> 00:50:24,679
be just as willing to lay air and go set

1128
00:50:25,079 --> 00:50:27,239
a screen for Pascal to try to get what mismatch

1129
00:50:27,280 --> 00:50:29,280
they want. It just might not be as many frequent

1130
00:50:29,320 --> 00:50:33,119
ones just between Andrew and Pascal independently.

1131
00:50:33,920 --> 00:50:36,880
Speaker 1: Aarony Smith, We've come a long way since like three

1132
00:50:36,920 --> 00:50:39,280
years ago on this podcast when they first acquired him,

1133
00:50:39,280 --> 00:50:40,960
I said, he just makes me nervous when he tries

1134
00:50:41,000 --> 00:50:44,800
to dribble. He's improved just every single season. Is there

1135
00:50:44,920 --> 00:50:48,440
still like bites at the Apple for him to conquer

1136
00:50:48,440 --> 00:50:51,079
our next frontier? Or have we seen like peak aaron

1137
00:50:51,119 --> 00:50:52,599
Ne Smith by this point?

1138
00:50:52,920 --> 00:50:55,000
Speaker 2: You know, I think that something that stood out to

1139
00:50:55,039 --> 00:50:58,440
me a lot in this playoff run was that he

1140
00:50:58,519 --> 00:51:03,000
shot forty on fifty guarded threes in the playoffs, so

1141
00:51:03,280 --> 00:51:06,800
guarded threes. Last year in the playoffs he shot seven

1142
00:51:06,800 --> 00:51:09,559
of twenty nine on guarded threes. So then you have

1143
00:51:09,639 --> 00:51:11,800
to ask yourself, like, why was he so much more

1144
00:51:11,840 --> 00:51:16,159
effective shooting shots that were contested? And I think that

1145
00:51:16,280 --> 00:51:18,440
part of the biggest reason for that was if you

1146
00:51:18,480 --> 00:51:21,599
look at his most frequent assignments in these playoffs, it

1147
00:51:21,800 --> 00:51:28,079
was Shay Jalen Brunson, Donovan Mitchell, aj Green, Darius Garland,

1148
00:51:28,159 --> 00:51:31,519
Gary Trent Junior, Kyle Kuzma, I think was the tallest

1149
00:51:31,599 --> 00:51:34,800
defender that was one of his more frequent assignments last

1150
00:51:34,880 --> 00:51:37,880
year in the playoffs, it was Chris Middleton, Jason Tatum,

1151
00:51:38,239 --> 00:51:43,480
Jalen Brown, Josh Hart. So because Nemhard was being used

1152
00:51:43,480 --> 00:51:48,159
so much more often as an initiator, teams weren't as

1153
00:51:48,199 --> 00:51:51,440
willing to be like, oh, let's put Jalen Brunson or

1154
00:51:51,480 --> 00:51:55,159
Donovan Mitchell or Darius Garland onto Nemhard. We don't, you know,

1155
00:51:55,199 --> 00:51:57,039
you don't want to be using those guys's point of

1156
00:51:57,039 --> 00:52:00,119
attack pick and roll defenders as much. So those guys

1157
00:52:00,119 --> 00:52:02,239
were getting moved over to Aaron, which meant that Aaron

1158
00:52:02,320 --> 00:52:06,760
had a height advantage consistently throughout at least the first

1159
00:52:06,800 --> 00:52:09,039
three rounds of the playoffs, which enabled him to be

1160
00:52:09,119 --> 00:52:11,719
able to be a more effective shooter because you know,

1161
00:52:11,800 --> 00:52:15,320
he improved his footwork as like a blur screener, and

1162
00:52:15,639 --> 00:52:17,920
but he's he takes most of his threes are not

1163
00:52:18,000 --> 00:52:19,920
off the dribble, some of them were this year. So

1164
00:52:20,000 --> 00:52:21,519
the fact that he could take like a one dribble

1165
00:52:21,599 --> 00:52:24,719
shot and invade a close out matter. But I think

1166
00:52:24,719 --> 00:52:26,119
that's the thing that stands out to me the most.

1167
00:52:26,119 --> 00:52:28,920
So then it kind of goes back to Benedict Matherin then, right, Like,

1168
00:52:29,000 --> 00:52:31,440
if Ben's able to draw some of those tougher assignments

1169
00:52:31,440 --> 00:52:33,840
at the two, just like what Andrew was doing in

1170
00:52:33,880 --> 00:52:36,320
the playoffs, then Nie Smith might still see some of

1171
00:52:36,360 --> 00:52:38,559
those smaller guards throughout the regular season and that will

1172
00:52:38,599 --> 00:52:40,719
be to his benefit. But to your point, I think

1173
00:52:40,719 --> 00:52:43,199
they might need even more on ball juice from him, honestly,

1174
00:52:43,320 --> 00:52:46,360
because like I've mentioned these games against Atlanta a lot,

1175
00:52:46,400 --> 00:52:48,440
but that's because Tyres didn't play in them, and it

1176
00:52:48,519 --> 00:52:51,079
provides the best window into what they might be looking at.

1177
00:52:51,440 --> 00:52:54,840
And like, if Aaron's being guarded by Trey Young and

1178
00:52:54,840 --> 00:52:57,480
Andrew has the ball being guarded by Dyson Daniels, the

1179
00:52:57,519 --> 00:52:59,039
Hawks a lot of times would go to like a

1180
00:52:59,079 --> 00:53:02,119
hedge and under that way they could keep Trey on

1181
00:53:02,199 --> 00:53:04,159
Aaron E. Smith, so he's doing a soft show. He's

1182
00:53:04,159 --> 00:53:07,480
staying with Aaron, and Dyson would duck under the entire action,

1183
00:53:07,639 --> 00:53:10,119
so you're taking away like a little short roll. If

1184
00:53:10,159 --> 00:53:12,159
the screener wants a short role, they can't get to it.

1185
00:53:13,000 --> 00:53:14,559
So that was something that the Pacers had to work around.

1186
00:53:14,599 --> 00:53:16,400
The best way to counter for that is to pop.

1187
00:53:16,880 --> 00:53:20,039
So if Aaron can pop and pop and drive against

1188
00:53:20,079 --> 00:53:22,800
Trey Young, very valuable. But he's got to be actually

1189
00:53:22,840 --> 00:53:25,599
willing to rip it from a standstill and be able

1190
00:53:25,639 --> 00:53:28,079
to attack some of those smaller, weaker defensive assignments. So

1191
00:53:28,440 --> 00:53:30,559
I think that there are some circumstances where they might

1192
00:53:30,559 --> 00:53:33,880
actually need even more on balld juice from him. Although

1193
00:53:33,880 --> 00:53:36,039
he definitely made progress from two point range after he

1194
00:53:36,079 --> 00:53:37,920
returned and was healthy as a starter last year.

1195
00:53:38,559 --> 00:53:40,400
Speaker 1: I'm just going to assume that he does it because

1196
00:53:40,440 --> 00:53:42,239
of how much he's improved since he first arrived on

1197
00:53:42,239 --> 00:53:44,039
the Pacers. I just wrote that trade off. It's like, oh,

1198
00:53:44,079 --> 00:53:46,320
like it's fine, I get it, and he turned into

1199
00:53:46,320 --> 00:53:47,960
one of the most valuable players in the playoffs.

1200
00:53:48,000 --> 00:53:49,960
Speaker 2: You know what's really funny to think about as a

1201
00:53:50,000 --> 00:53:52,719
tiny as side to that is, I remember Malcolm brogged

1202
00:53:52,719 --> 00:53:56,159
in giving an interview after that trade, and I'm not

1203
00:53:56,360 --> 00:53:58,719
saying that I'm not going to doubt Malcolm, and I

1204
00:53:58,760 --> 00:54:01,559
don't know from the Pacers ppect whether this actually happened,

1205
00:54:01,719 --> 00:54:04,559
But Malcolm was like, I, you know, they gave me

1206
00:54:04,639 --> 00:54:07,760
a choice. They had potential trades with Toronto and Boston,

1207
00:54:08,280 --> 00:54:12,599
and I chose Boston, which led you to believe that

1208
00:54:12,639 --> 00:54:16,400
the Pacers saw like both trades is potentially like we

1209
00:54:16,440 --> 00:54:19,440
see these as equal outcomes, so like there's a realm

1210
00:54:19,480 --> 00:54:21,360
where Aaron doesn't end up on the team if you

1211
00:54:21,360 --> 00:54:23,519
think about it that way, Like the Pacers could have

1212
00:54:23,559 --> 00:54:25,400
gotten something back from Toronto.

1213
00:54:26,159 --> 00:54:28,119
Speaker 1: At that point, Like what.

1214
00:54:28,559 --> 00:54:34,360
Speaker 2: Exactly, I don't know, Like I always question that because

1215
00:54:34,559 --> 00:54:37,360
I'm like, really, they gave like they gave you leeway

1216
00:54:37,440 --> 00:54:40,559
to pick. But that's what he indicated in an interview

1217
00:54:40,559 --> 00:54:42,320
after the fact that he was like, you know, there

1218
00:54:42,400 --> 00:54:44,920
was potential for me to go to Toronto or Boston, and

1219
00:54:44,960 --> 00:54:46,880
I wanted to come to Boston. I want a chance

1220
00:54:46,920 --> 00:54:47,239
to win.

1221
00:54:49,280 --> 00:54:52,239
Speaker 1: When Jars Walker came into the NBA, two of the

1222
00:54:52,239 --> 00:54:54,880
things I said was I don't trust his shot from

1223
00:54:54,920 --> 00:54:56,559
beyond the arc, and I think he's going to be

1224
00:54:56,800 --> 00:55:00,320
a defensive monster. He's kind of flipped both of those

1225
00:55:00,360 --> 00:55:03,360
things on their heads. Almost half his shots have come

1226
00:55:03,360 --> 00:55:05,239
from three since i'dering not a ton of volume, but

1227
00:55:05,280 --> 00:55:07,840
he shot them well and his defense has just been

1228
00:55:07,880 --> 00:55:11,320
felt like it's touch and go. Yeah, So what is

1229
00:55:11,719 --> 00:55:14,480
or what can Jaris Walker be because this is one

1230
00:55:14,519 --> 00:55:16,440
of those players where I just don't have a great

1231
00:55:16,480 --> 00:55:19,079
feel for what he can potentially become at this point.

1232
00:55:19,079 --> 00:55:21,199
And also just how much of an opportunity do you

1233
00:55:21,199 --> 00:55:24,320
expect him to have this season specifically because year three

1234
00:55:24,440 --> 00:55:27,880
is it's kind of unofficially a critical year for every

1235
00:55:27,960 --> 00:55:31,159
player because you now have technically a track record under

1236
00:55:31,199 --> 00:55:33,599
your belt, and also from a team building perspective, you

1237
00:55:33,639 --> 00:55:36,480
start thinking about, oh, they're extension eligible after this season too.

1238
00:55:36,920 --> 00:55:39,159
Speaker 2: Yeah. It's kind of funny with Ben Shephard and Jarrison

1239
00:55:39,199 --> 00:55:41,559
that same draft class because Ben Shepard was pegged as

1240
00:55:41,559 --> 00:55:44,960
the shooter, Jarris pegged as you know, the defensive monster,

1241
00:55:45,039 --> 00:55:47,159
and like Ben ended up impressing with this point of

1242
00:55:47,159 --> 00:55:50,239
attack defense and Jarris ended up pressing impressing with his shot.

1243
00:55:50,960 --> 00:55:52,679
Definitely made a lot of progress with the shot. I

1244
00:55:52,719 --> 00:55:56,400
think he turned the corner some Defensively. You mentioned that

1245
00:55:56,440 --> 00:55:58,639
game against Minnesota. He was really bad in that game.

1246
00:55:59,559 --> 00:56:01,840
They put on Anthony Edwards late. They basically had to

1247
00:56:01,840 --> 00:56:04,119
blitz everything. He picked up a lot of late game fouls,

1248
00:56:04,199 --> 00:56:06,559
ended up filing out or you know, he didn't foul out,

1249
00:56:06,559 --> 00:56:08,320
he ended up limping off with an injury, and then

1250
00:56:08,360 --> 00:56:10,159
they had tried to put him on Julius Randall, Like

1251
00:56:10,159 --> 00:56:12,599
it was not a good showing. But after that game,

1252
00:56:13,119 --> 00:56:15,639
like little by little, it was like, okay, he could potentially,

1253
00:56:15,679 --> 00:56:17,840
you know, have like a bit role in the playoffs

1254
00:56:17,880 --> 00:56:20,159
at this point. Like I even wrote my preseason or

1255
00:56:20,199 --> 00:56:23,079
my pre preview piece on the Bucks about like how

1256
00:56:23,159 --> 00:56:26,599
ready is ready? Because they might legitimately need Jaris Walker

1257
00:56:26,639 --> 00:56:28,960
to take some of these possessions against the honest because

1258
00:56:29,000 --> 00:56:32,519
you can't have Pascal being the only primary and like

1259
00:56:33,360 --> 00:56:35,280
nobody else has size to do it. And Jeris did

1260
00:56:35,400 --> 00:56:39,320
end up taking some of those possessions. I think mainly

1261
00:56:39,360 --> 00:56:41,039
like sometimes it's gonna be tough, like what you said

1262
00:56:41,039 --> 00:56:44,920
with a tool zy wing, and like exactly when you

1263
00:56:44,920 --> 00:56:47,840
can do everything, what is your crystallized skill that keeps

1264
00:56:47,840 --> 00:56:50,599
you on the court. I think with Jaris I like

1265
00:56:50,760 --> 00:56:53,840
him defensively as an event creator, like what I said,

1266
00:56:53,880 --> 00:56:56,599
with him being a secondary rim protector, Like late in

1267
00:56:56,639 --> 00:56:58,840
the game against the Lakers, he ended up staying in

1268
00:56:58,880 --> 00:57:00,880
the closing line up in as with a miss box

1269
00:57:00,880 --> 00:57:03,239
out at the end. But he actually had some standout

1270
00:57:03,280 --> 00:57:05,480
moments where he had like two vertical contests on the

1271
00:57:05,519 --> 00:57:08,840
same possession that got stops at the rim. For me,

1272
00:57:09,000 --> 00:57:10,719
the thing that I'm watching for the most with him,

1273
00:57:10,719 --> 00:57:13,480
and Pascal showed this in a little workout video, is

1274
00:57:13,480 --> 00:57:16,320
he's trying to get Jarris to stampede catch more, which

1275
00:57:16,360 --> 00:57:20,239
means like the go and catch rather than wasting a dribble,

1276
00:57:20,599 --> 00:57:23,480
to help him get better driving angles and hopefully that

1277
00:57:23,519 --> 00:57:26,119
will then help him with his takeoff points, because I'm

1278
00:57:26,159 --> 00:57:28,280
still at a place with him where like I don't

1279
00:57:28,280 --> 00:57:29,960
want in the half court for him to be taking

1280
00:57:30,000 --> 00:57:33,199
almost as many runners as layups at his size, And

1281
00:57:33,199 --> 00:57:34,760
a lot of that still goes back to the fact

1282
00:57:34,800 --> 00:57:38,519
that I've mentioned this many times, but he tiptoes so

1283
00:57:38,800 --> 00:57:41,079
because he plays up on his toes, it creates some

1284
00:57:41,159 --> 00:57:44,360
balance issues and that's in part why he takes as

1285
00:57:44,400 --> 00:57:46,599
many off balance floaters as he does at the rim.

1286
00:57:46,679 --> 00:57:49,639
Right now, he's in the twenty fifth percentile for wings

1287
00:57:49,679 --> 00:57:53,519
and rim conversion. Right he also doesn't get to the

1288
00:57:53,599 --> 00:57:56,320
rim that often. He's still he has some stuff like

1289
00:57:56,400 --> 00:58:00,719
Ben where just like positioning with when they're playing random

1290
00:58:01,039 --> 00:58:03,000
where he doesn't always seem quite on the same page

1291
00:58:03,039 --> 00:58:04,559
that he needs to iron out. But like when you

1292
00:58:04,599 --> 00:58:05,920
look at it, and again, I don't want to be

1293
00:58:06,000 --> 00:58:09,840
reductive of tyres Aaliburn, but there is a rotation spot

1294
00:58:09,880 --> 00:58:12,039
open by virtue of the fact that he is not playing.

1295
00:58:12,320 --> 00:58:14,320
So it's going to be much easier for Jarries to

1296
00:58:14,400 --> 00:58:17,679
definitively be part of the rotation when the season starts

1297
00:58:17,679 --> 00:58:21,119
than what was the case last season. I like the

1298
00:58:21,119 --> 00:58:23,119
fact that he's continued to work with Pascal. I think

1299
00:58:23,119 --> 00:58:25,360
that's a very good mentor for him. But he needs

1300
00:58:25,400 --> 00:58:29,039
to play with consistent force and energy, like that's like

1301
00:58:29,239 --> 00:58:32,360
motor stuff is genuinely what I think has kept him

1302
00:58:32,360 --> 00:58:35,360
off the floor at times, Like he just has possessions

1303
00:58:35,360 --> 00:58:39,039
where it's like, you know, I'm not really sure that

1304
00:58:39,079 --> 00:58:41,280
when they started you against the Atlanta Hawks that you

1305
00:58:41,320 --> 00:58:44,440
should have like a really casual turnover and then not

1306
00:58:44,559 --> 00:58:46,239
get back at all where I can't even see you

1307
00:58:46,280 --> 00:58:49,599
in frame of the play, Like it's those types of things,

1308
00:58:49,639 --> 00:58:52,360
like they gave you an opportunity here to be a

1309
00:58:52,440 --> 00:58:55,559
starter and it's the first quarter like they need some

1310
00:58:55,639 --> 00:58:58,519
of that stuff to be diminished because the talent. The

1311
00:58:58,559 --> 00:59:00,840
talent is there, like a lot of the tools he

1312
00:59:00,880 --> 00:59:03,880
has certainly physically, So I think he's gonna be in

1313
00:59:03,880 --> 00:59:06,679
the rotation and he's gonna have a much greater chance

1314
00:59:06,679 --> 00:59:08,840
to be playing regular minutes this year. For sure.

1315
00:59:09,599 --> 00:59:12,000
Speaker 1: It's he You should have him watch on the getting

1316
00:59:12,039 --> 00:59:15,119
back in transition defense stuff. You should have him read

1317
00:59:15,199 --> 00:59:18,880
the piece about Pascal Siakam falling down and then still

1318
00:59:18,880 --> 00:59:20,639
being able to get back on defense and that like

1319
00:59:20,679 --> 00:59:22,639
that's like that was one of the hallmarks, like the

1320
00:59:22,679 --> 00:59:25,559
Pacers defense is there was like only three defenses that

1321
00:59:25,599 --> 00:59:28,280
were better at points loott for possession, when the Pacers

1322
00:59:28,320 --> 00:59:30,400
would miss a shot at the rim, and when you're

1323
00:59:30,400 --> 00:59:31,960
missing a shot at the rim. A lot of these,

1324
00:59:32,199 --> 00:59:34,639
I mean someone who's watched a lot of knicks, Not

1325
00:59:34,679 --> 00:59:37,199
everybody's gonna get back. Shout out kar Anthony Towns for

1326
00:59:37,239 --> 00:59:38,920
that one. So it's like when these like you have

1327
00:59:38,920 --> 00:59:41,159
Pascal Siakam falling down and still managing to get back,

1328
00:59:41,159 --> 00:59:42,960
So maybe they should just watch him, show him like

1329
00:59:43,280 --> 00:59:45,360
NonStop footage of that on a loop and see how

1330
00:59:45,440 --> 00:59:47,119
see if it see if it takes.

1331
00:59:47,639 --> 00:59:49,559
Speaker 2: We can only hope. Yeah, I mean I I watched

1332
00:59:49,599 --> 00:59:52,000
every clip because if people don't know, Pascal did lead

1333
00:59:52,039 --> 00:59:53,440
the league in falls last year.

1334
00:59:53,880 --> 00:59:57,400
Speaker 1: Yet more, subscribe the basketball. She wrote that there was

1335
00:59:57,440 --> 00:59:59,360
the jump passes one that was like the piece that

1336
00:59:59,400 --> 01:00:01,119
popped like a couple of years ago, and that your

1337
01:00:01,199 --> 01:00:03,920
shirts made after and everything, and then you're able to

1338
01:00:04,039 --> 01:00:07,800
just go into the weeds on Pascal Siakam falling down.

1339
01:00:08,000 --> 01:00:10,480
It was absolutely incredible. Your podcast about it, you wrote

1340
01:00:10,519 --> 01:00:14,559
about it. Go subscribe and pay for the basketball. She wrote,

1341
01:00:14,559 --> 01:00:17,280
subscription right right to hell. Now, I'm sorry to interrupt there.

1342
01:00:17,320 --> 01:00:19,119
Speaker 2: Those are my favorite types of pieces, Like I like

1343
01:00:19,199 --> 01:00:20,920
the Andrew dem Hard chair pull one. I have a

1344
01:00:20,960 --> 01:00:23,519
shirt on that one. But the Pascal one was actually

1345
01:00:23,519 --> 01:00:25,519
a male bad question that somebody sent me in December,

1346
01:00:25,519 --> 01:00:27,400
and I had been kind of quietly being like, this

1347
01:00:27,440 --> 01:00:29,440
would be a good thing to do as a summer project.

1348
01:00:29,480 --> 01:00:31,480
And I told him I was like, when it's the summer,

1349
01:00:31,480 --> 01:00:34,280
I'll do it. And so he had the most falls

1350
01:00:34,320 --> 01:00:36,880
on his jump shot of any non guard. And so

1351
01:00:37,000 --> 01:00:39,079
I sent Samson all that film and the two of

1352
01:00:39,119 --> 01:00:41,000
us watched it because I was like, you know, he's

1353
01:00:41,039 --> 01:00:44,320
watched more Pascal than anybody, and we were able to

1354
01:00:44,360 --> 01:00:46,639
do that podcast together, so I know that that one

1355
01:00:46,719 --> 01:00:49,480
was really far into Caitlin Land. That's a very course

1356
01:00:49,719 --> 01:00:50,199
deep drive.

1357
01:00:50,360 --> 01:00:53,760
Speaker 1: But you're fomenting sickos you had someone asked that mail

1358
01:00:53,800 --> 01:00:56,920
bad question about Pascal siakamuh so like everyone is like

1359
01:00:56,920 --> 01:00:59,480
they're picking up on your sickoism by Osmosis. I love it.

1360
01:01:00,559 --> 01:01:02,480
Speaker 2: That's one of the benefits of my Patreon. I get

1361
01:01:02,519 --> 01:01:05,599
a lot of really thoughtful male bad questions that I

1362
01:01:05,639 --> 01:01:06,880
always appreciate every month.

1363
01:01:06,960 --> 01:01:10,360
Speaker 1: For sure, where are we at on the Ben Shepherd experience,

1364
01:01:12,320 --> 01:01:12,559
You know.

1365
01:01:13,440 --> 01:01:16,320
Speaker 2: It's it's a curious one because he came back from

1366
01:01:16,360 --> 01:01:20,519
that oblique injury and his shot to me, by my eye,

1367
01:01:20,599 --> 01:01:23,320
looked like he was twisting a bit to his left

1368
01:01:23,360 --> 01:01:27,719
after that. And he's never been like a consistent I

1369
01:01:27,719 --> 01:01:29,559
think most of the time with Shepherd, you kind of

1370
01:01:29,559 --> 01:01:31,360
feel like you wish you would make like one more

1371
01:01:31,400 --> 01:01:34,400
three than what he does. So that's there, and I

1372
01:01:34,400 --> 01:01:36,639
think sometimes you wish that he would take like more

1373
01:01:36,800 --> 01:01:39,000
one more three than what he does, Like he's very

1374
01:01:39,079 --> 01:01:42,199
quick to trigger the extra pass. But like Rick talked

1375
01:01:42,199 --> 01:01:45,679
about on that podcast when he was comparing the two bends,

1376
01:01:47,039 --> 01:01:49,000
and he termed it as this, like Ben Shepherd really

1377
01:01:49,079 --> 01:01:51,599
is a soldier within their system, like he's going to

1378
01:01:51,679 --> 01:01:53,880
run to the corners, He's gonna lubricate and really be

1379
01:01:53,920 --> 01:01:56,840
important in between actions. And he has one of the

1380
01:01:56,880 --> 01:01:58,960
lowest blow by rates in the NBA, like now sometimes

1381
01:01:59,000 --> 01:02:01,800
against more physical goal arts if he gives up a bump.

1382
01:02:01,840 --> 01:02:04,840
He doesn't always have the highest or the best like

1383
01:02:04,920 --> 01:02:08,199
contest on that. But if you need somebody to pressure

1384
01:02:08,239 --> 01:02:10,760
full court and you need somebody that's gonna run, that's

1385
01:02:11,000 --> 01:02:14,519
your guy. I do wonder like I think Taylor Peter's

1386
01:02:14,519 --> 01:02:16,719
pretty interesting, and Taylor Peter kind of does some of

1387
01:02:16,719 --> 01:02:19,480
the Ben Shepherd stuff. And I also think Johnny Furfy

1388
01:02:19,559 --> 01:02:21,679
is really interesting. And while I do not see Johnny

1389
01:02:21,679 --> 01:02:24,440
Furfy as a shooting guard other than maybe in some

1390
01:02:24,480 --> 01:02:29,000
really quirky lineups, he kind of does some of the

1391
01:02:29,000 --> 01:02:32,199
Ben Shepherd stuff too. But these things being said, like

1392
01:02:32,440 --> 01:02:35,519
it's very important organizationally that Benedict Mathern be the starter

1393
01:02:35,639 --> 01:02:39,599
and Matheren definitely has the higher ceiling overall, But there

1394
01:02:39,679 --> 01:02:42,679
is a world where Ben Shepherd starting next to Nemhard

1395
01:02:42,760 --> 01:02:47,000
makes more sense in my head simply because why they

1396
01:02:47,000 --> 01:02:49,440
started him in the second game against Atlanta. You can

1397
01:02:49,480 --> 01:02:52,320
put Ben Shepherd on Trey Young and be like, hey,

1398
01:02:52,920 --> 01:02:55,079
go pressure the ball, so Andrew doesn't have to do it.

1399
01:02:55,400 --> 01:02:58,039
And also we can count on you like our paces.

1400
01:02:58,239 --> 01:03:00,039
Like people talk about, They ask me, like, as the

1401
01:03:00,360 --> 01:03:02,599
gonna still happen without Tyres on the court like it

1402
01:03:02,760 --> 01:03:05,360
has to. It's almost more important without Tyres on the

1403
01:03:05,360 --> 01:03:07,039
court because of what might be going on in the

1404
01:03:07,079 --> 01:03:10,360
half court situations. So with that in mind, like he

1405
01:03:10,480 --> 01:03:13,519
is your most reliable runner. So there is a world

1406
01:03:13,559 --> 01:03:15,599
where that makes a little bit more sense in my

1407
01:03:15,679 --> 01:03:17,880
head and could loom if they don't get off to

1408
01:03:17,920 --> 01:03:20,480
a good start, despite the fact that I readily acknowledge

1409
01:03:20,519 --> 01:03:23,039
that for many reasons for the team as a whole,

1410
01:03:23,039 --> 01:03:25,440
it needs to be Benedict Matheren, and I understand why

1411
01:03:25,480 --> 01:03:27,360
Rick revealed that in the way that he did on

1412
01:03:27,400 --> 01:03:30,800
the podcast. But I still like Ben Shepherd. But like

1413
01:03:30,840 --> 01:03:33,360
I said, there's two people behind him in a similar

1414
01:03:33,440 --> 01:03:36,840
role who I think are really intriguing and also offer

1415
01:03:36,920 --> 01:03:40,039
some things that Ben Shepherd doesn't do, But I don't

1416
01:03:40,079 --> 01:03:42,280
think that they're ready to leap into play the Ben

1417
01:03:42,320 --> 01:03:44,719
Shepherd role right now. Today, if that makes sense.

1418
01:03:45,960 --> 01:03:49,360
Speaker 1: Ben Shepherd's another is more proof of your clairvoyance because

1419
01:03:49,360 --> 01:03:51,000
I remember talking about him coming out of his first

1420
01:03:51,000 --> 01:03:54,159
Summer League and asking you, like, this guy defended like

1421
01:03:54,199 --> 01:03:56,519
a lot of really big players. There's like a defensive

1422
01:03:56,519 --> 01:03:58,719
possession that he had in the post that is one

1423
01:03:58,719 --> 01:04:00,840
of the few Summer League plays that is tattooed to.

1424
01:04:03,119 --> 01:04:04,599
And I was just like, you know what, I think,

1425
01:04:04,639 --> 01:04:06,239
Like the jumper is gonna be fine. He's just gonna

1426
01:04:06,280 --> 01:04:07,840
become like this really lead three and D guy. And

1427
01:04:07,880 --> 01:04:09,320
You're like, you know, I don't know, Like the jumper

1428
01:04:09,360 --> 01:04:12,000
feels like it's gonna be inconsistent. Lo and behold, here

1429
01:04:12,000 --> 01:04:14,280
we are two or three years later, whatever it is,

1430
01:04:14,360 --> 01:04:16,480
and you just mentioned it'd be nice if he could

1431
01:04:16,519 --> 01:04:18,519
make one or two more three pointers or take them.

1432
01:04:18,559 --> 01:04:20,599
That's what it feels like. You did mention some of

1433
01:04:20,599 --> 01:04:22,679
the other guys for some reason. I was in charge

1434
01:04:22,679 --> 01:04:25,400
of doing rookiees scuty reports after Summer League this year

1435
01:04:25,400 --> 01:04:28,239
at bleacher Report Town. Peter does interest me because of

1436
01:04:28,320 --> 01:04:29,639
one of the notes I had where it feels like

1437
01:04:29,880 --> 01:04:32,920
half court does feel like he's in constant motion. You

1438
01:04:32,960 --> 01:04:35,760
mentioned him, You mentioned Johnny Furfey of the quote unquote

1439
01:04:35,800 --> 01:04:38,440
like other guys that the Pacers have on the roster,

1440
01:04:38,519 --> 01:04:41,760
who do you find just most interesting through that big

1441
01:04:41,800 --> 01:04:44,639
picture lens or even maybe could they surprise and get

1442
01:04:44,679 --> 01:04:45,800
some run this season.

1443
01:04:46,639 --> 01:04:49,840
Speaker 2: Johnny Furfey intrigues me a lot. He fits their style

1444
01:04:49,920 --> 01:04:52,119
of play quite well for the same reasons that Ben

1445
01:04:52,119 --> 01:04:55,280
Shepperd does. He needs to be able to do more

1446
01:04:55,320 --> 01:04:57,400
above the break. And when he was at Summer League,

1447
01:04:57,880 --> 01:05:00,599
he was bigger number one. He looked like he's put

1448
01:05:00,639 --> 01:05:03,400
on like legitimate. I don't want to make this muscle watch,

1449
01:05:03,440 --> 01:05:04,280
but they said it.

1450
01:05:04,199 --> 01:05:07,039
Speaker 1: Was aggregators halftag muscle.

1451
01:05:07,079 --> 01:05:08,480
Speaker 2: While yeah, I mean, if you look at the photo

1452
01:05:08,519 --> 01:05:11,280
of him, I understand that they're they're standing on an incline.

1453
01:05:11,280 --> 01:05:14,719
But he he bigger and better Johnny Furfey apparently. But

1454
01:05:15,599 --> 01:05:18,000
he did turn the ball downhill more from above the break.

1455
01:05:18,039 --> 01:05:21,760
What happened once he got downhill wasn't always ideal, But

1456
01:05:22,960 --> 01:05:26,000
when you're that size and you can actually guard on

1457
01:05:26,119 --> 01:05:29,880
ball handlers, that's really special. I think he plays pretty

1458
01:05:29,880 --> 01:05:33,199
well and contained. There were games last year when granted

1459
01:05:33,239 --> 01:05:35,199
some of their pointed attack defenders were out, but it

1460
01:05:35,239 --> 01:05:38,679
was like, hey, Jeris just lost Brandon Miller on an

1461
01:05:38,679 --> 01:05:41,519
off ball screening action. So we're gonna put tj on

1462
01:05:41,599 --> 01:05:44,840
Brandon Miller, and we've put Jarris on Mesach and now

1463
01:05:44,920 --> 01:05:46,840
Jaris gave up a blow by to Mesitch and now

1464
01:05:46,880 --> 01:05:50,440
it's Johnny Furfey, and Johnny Furfey's doing a better job

1465
01:05:50,480 --> 01:05:53,079
of playing and containing or like being up in Brooklyn

1466
01:05:53,079 --> 01:05:55,400
and me seeing them put Johnny Furfy on Dennis Shrewder,

1467
01:05:55,679 --> 01:05:57,840
like again, when you're that height, and that's an assignment

1468
01:05:57,880 --> 01:05:59,519
you can take on, Like, I would not put him

1469
01:05:59,559 --> 01:06:02,199
on guard on all ones, but the fact that he

1470
01:06:02,199 --> 01:06:05,239
can do it at all is a pretty cool thing.

1471
01:06:05,280 --> 01:06:07,840
And I feel comfortable with him guarding two through four.

1472
01:06:08,800 --> 01:06:11,199
The shot needs to make progress, but he's a good rebounder.

1473
01:06:11,480 --> 01:06:13,360
I think the rebounding is going to be more important

1474
01:06:13,360 --> 01:06:15,599
for the reasons that I said. I think filling and

1475
01:06:15,679 --> 01:06:19,039
running lanes and transition is going to be important for

1476
01:06:19,079 --> 01:06:20,880
the reasons that I said. And then obviously everybody knows

1477
01:06:20,880 --> 01:06:22,400
what he had with the Dunks in Summer League and

1478
01:06:22,440 --> 01:06:26,639
what is overall athleticism is. So I if I had

1479
01:06:26,679 --> 01:06:29,400
like a hot take about the Pacers, it might be

1480
01:06:29,480 --> 01:06:32,920
that Johnny furfy cracks the rotation at some point this season,

1481
01:06:33,880 --> 01:06:35,159
oh for somebody else.

1482
01:06:35,679 --> 01:06:39,400
Speaker 1: So it's like he outplays somebody rather than something goes wrong,

1483
01:06:39,480 --> 01:06:40,239
like there's another.

1484
01:06:40,079 --> 01:06:43,400
Speaker 2: I think it could happen. I think it's possible, Like

1485
01:06:43,519 --> 01:06:45,000
I don't think it will be that case at the

1486
01:06:45,039 --> 01:06:48,400
beginning of the year, but if he if he comes

1487
01:06:48,440 --> 01:06:50,440
because he's usually pretty ready to play, if he comes

1488
01:06:50,480 --> 01:06:52,119
in and can do some of the stuff he did

1489
01:06:52,119 --> 01:06:54,559
at Summer League, I think it's possible. After that. Like

1490
01:06:54,599 --> 01:06:57,039
I said, Taylor Peter really intrigued me, and it might

1491
01:06:57,079 --> 01:06:59,159
be because it was stuff like I don't remember how

1492
01:06:59,199 --> 01:07:01,000
many drives he had Liberty, but I want to say

1493
01:07:01,000 --> 01:07:03,119
it was less than fifteen. And to see him at

1494
01:07:03,119 --> 01:07:04,840
Summer League and it's like, oh, he's got a little

1495
01:07:04,880 --> 01:07:07,360
extra burst there, Like he just had a heasy out

1496
01:07:07,360 --> 01:07:10,199
of the corner. He switched hands on a layup. I

1497
01:07:10,280 --> 01:07:12,679
was like, he has a lot of momentum moving towards

1498
01:07:12,679 --> 01:07:15,239
the basket. And also he was better defensively than I expected,

1499
01:07:15,519 --> 01:07:18,440
like not necessarily with his screen navigation, but in isolation

1500
01:07:18,519 --> 01:07:21,320
situations he was pretty good at using his chest. He

1501
01:07:21,440 --> 01:07:23,800
was physical, So I think there's something there. And He's

1502
01:07:23,880 --> 01:07:26,000
very intuitive as an off ball mover in some ways

1503
01:07:26,000 --> 01:07:29,159
that sometimes I don't even see from guys in the

1504
01:07:29,159 --> 01:07:32,280
main rotation for the Pacers being that like they'll run

1505
01:07:32,400 --> 01:07:34,800
like pinned downs into handoffs out of baseline, out of

1506
01:07:34,800 --> 01:07:36,840
bounce plays, And there were times at Summer League where

1507
01:07:36,880 --> 01:07:39,280
he recognized, like, oh, there's a switch I can slip

1508
01:07:39,280 --> 01:07:42,280
that pin down. Those opportunities are there a lot in games,

1509
01:07:42,760 --> 01:07:44,880
and more often than not, like that guy will just

1510
01:07:44,920 --> 01:07:46,920
back out to the corner because I had I put

1511
01:07:46,920 --> 01:07:49,079
this in a piece. But like I had a coach

1512
01:07:49,119 --> 01:07:51,559
once say, and it was nobody with the Pacers, but

1513
01:07:51,599 --> 01:07:55,039
they said, like, you know, we were gonna value playing

1514
01:07:55,079 --> 01:07:57,039
higher in the gaps and with ball pressure because if

1515
01:07:57,079 --> 01:07:58,719
we give up one or two back cuts a game,

1516
01:07:59,239 --> 01:08:01,880
like that's a sacrifice for what we get. And I

1517
01:08:02,119 --> 01:08:04,960
agree with that overall, because when you're playing really high

1518
01:08:05,000 --> 01:08:07,360
ball pressure, it can be hard to execute those back

1519
01:08:07,400 --> 01:08:10,840
to our passes. But also it almost makes the guys

1520
01:08:10,840 --> 01:08:13,000
and role players who can do that even more valuable

1521
01:08:13,000 --> 01:08:16,279
because its effectively like free points. And Taylor Peter's definitely

1522
01:08:16,279 --> 01:08:21,399
somebody who recognizes opportunities for him to be opportunistic, which

1523
01:08:21,439 --> 01:08:25,399
I realize that's redundant, but genuinely like he is very

1524
01:08:25,399 --> 01:08:27,560
intuitive when he's out on the court as an off

1525
01:08:27,560 --> 01:08:30,039
ball mover. So I like what I saw from him.

1526
01:08:30,039 --> 01:08:31,600
I'll definitely want to see some of his J League

1527
01:08:31,600 --> 01:08:32,159
games this year.

1528
01:08:33,119 --> 01:08:35,000
Speaker 1: Well if I had a hot take for the Pacers,

1529
01:08:35,000 --> 01:08:37,079
and I know it'll require a trade or some sort

1530
01:08:37,079 --> 01:08:39,840
of roster futzing and fiddling. I think he's going to

1531
01:08:39,880 --> 01:08:41,600
be converted from his two way by the end of

1532
01:08:41,600 --> 01:08:43,840
the season. I like him that much. I like him

1533
01:08:43,840 --> 01:08:45,239
a little bit more than Cam Jones, so I thought

1534
01:08:45,239 --> 01:08:46,439
he was fine in Summer League too.

1535
01:08:46,600 --> 01:08:50,279
Speaker 2: Yeah, Cam Jones is like obviously he potentially fills a

1536
01:08:50,279 --> 01:08:52,640
greater position of need because the Pacers only have two

1537
01:08:52,680 --> 01:08:54,600
point guards and there's not a lot of people that

1538
01:08:54,640 --> 01:08:57,600
they can throw over that spot, like obviously Quentin Jackson could.

1539
01:08:57,640 --> 01:09:01,119
Though he's better as a dynamic slasher can and he

1540
01:09:01,199 --> 01:09:02,880
had some good moments at Summer League, but he's a

1541
01:09:02,880 --> 01:09:06,720
small guard and he's pretty floater dependent. But Cam's game

1542
01:09:07,000 --> 01:09:10,279
is very like the quirks and nuances are pretty predictable

1543
01:09:10,279 --> 01:09:12,960
because he's extremely left hand dominant, like you could pretty

1544
01:09:13,000 --> 01:09:14,680
much count on if there's a screen to his right,

1545
01:09:14,720 --> 01:09:17,279
he's gonna reject that screen. If he gets turned and

1546
01:09:17,319 --> 01:09:19,039
he has to go to his right, he's almost gonna

1547
01:09:19,079 --> 01:09:21,439
always if he's on the right side the floor, he's

1548
01:09:21,439 --> 01:09:23,199
almost always gonna go to his spin move to get

1549
01:09:23,199 --> 01:09:26,520
to a lefty floater. Like it's very predictable and consistent

1550
01:09:26,560 --> 01:09:28,159
that those are the things that he's going to do.

1551
01:09:28,319 --> 01:09:30,880
So at the NBA level, I think that's gonna be

1552
01:09:30,880 --> 01:09:33,119
tough because in some ways he does. I had a

1553
01:09:33,159 --> 01:09:34,600
scout reach out to me and tell this, and I

1554
01:09:34,600 --> 01:09:38,359
think it's accurate. Like he's very similar to Lance Stevenson

1555
01:09:38,399 --> 01:09:41,960
and his body type, his drive pattern, his shooting mechanics.

1556
01:09:42,000 --> 01:09:44,439
So his shot is either going to have to get

1557
01:09:45,079 --> 01:09:47,439
more consistent or he's gonna have to be not as

1558
01:09:47,560 --> 01:09:50,359
left hand dominant because he doesn't. The thing that differentiates

1559
01:09:50,399 --> 01:09:52,199
him from Lance Stevenson is he doesn't have as much

1560
01:09:52,319 --> 01:09:55,399
kick and burst. He's not as athletic. So he's a

1561
01:09:55,399 --> 01:09:58,039
good finisher and he's good playing off the two feet.

1562
01:09:58,479 --> 01:10:00,720
He's crafty. That matters, But he's gonna have to be

1563
01:10:00,800 --> 01:10:04,159
really crafty because right now, like I said, it kind

1564
01:10:04,159 --> 01:10:06,079
of matters because the pacers, you know, people are going

1565
01:10:06,119 --> 01:10:07,720
to counter and be like, well, Tyree's is a super

1566
01:10:07,800 --> 01:10:10,199
right hand dominant guard and so it's TJ I'm like, well, yes,

1567
01:10:10,279 --> 01:10:13,319
but Tyrese will still go to his left. He gets

1568
01:10:13,319 --> 01:10:15,119
off the ball too quickly, but he still can make

1569
01:10:15,159 --> 01:10:18,159
passes with his left hand, and he can also pull

1570
01:10:18,239 --> 01:10:21,039
up in either direction, going right or left. So and

1571
01:10:21,199 --> 01:10:22,680
in addition to the whole thing that he's like an

1572
01:10:22,680 --> 01:10:24,560
all NBA point guard certainly matters, but.

1573
01:10:26,279 --> 01:10:27,239
Speaker 1: Just a little bit.

1574
01:10:27,319 --> 01:10:30,359
Speaker 2: That's the difference like Cam Jones doesn't. He doesn't have

1575
01:10:30,840 --> 01:10:33,840
the same degree of flextion with his left hand to

1576
01:10:33,840 --> 01:10:36,960
be making on target passes either or with his right

1577
01:10:37,000 --> 01:10:40,439
excuse me, his offhand. So we'll see what he's able

1578
01:10:40,479 --> 01:10:42,359
to do. He fills a greater position of need, like

1579
01:10:42,399 --> 01:10:44,159
I said, because they don't have a lot of primary

1580
01:10:44,159 --> 01:10:45,039
ball handlers right.

1581
01:10:44,920 --> 01:10:48,880
Speaker 1: Now, CC, are you ready to enter the cookie Cutter

1582
01:10:48,920 --> 01:10:50,279
slash lightning round portion of the time?

1583
01:10:50,279 --> 01:10:51,000
Speaker 2: Oh I d am?

1584
01:10:51,119 --> 01:10:54,039
Speaker 1: I indeed am. Now maybe this question really isn't that

1585
01:10:54,039 --> 01:10:56,680
interesting because of the Tyre's Haliburton injury. So if I

1586
01:10:56,720 --> 01:10:59,479
remove saying the biggest need they have is a healthy

1587
01:10:59,479 --> 01:11:02,199
Tyres's hoalse, what is this roster's biggest need as of

1588
01:11:02,279 --> 01:11:03,000
right now to you.

1589
01:11:03,359 --> 01:11:06,399
Speaker 2: I mean, I think it's directly related to Terry Saliburton, right.

1590
01:11:06,439 --> 01:11:09,359
I mean, I think in addition to I if they

1591
01:11:09,399 --> 01:11:12,000
have a starting center between Jahoff for Isaiah Jackson, that

1592
01:11:12,000 --> 01:11:14,560
would be a massive, massive win. I think they're still

1593
01:11:14,600 --> 01:11:17,039
going to need a starting center at some point. But

1594
01:11:17,800 --> 01:11:21,079
shooting in general, like, they shot thirty eight percent from

1595
01:11:21,119 --> 01:11:23,760
three on thirty eight attempts per one hundred when Tyree's

1596
01:11:23,840 --> 01:11:25,479
was on the court, only thirty eight percent of those

1597
01:11:25,479 --> 01:11:28,199
were heavily contested. When he was off the court, they

1598
01:11:28,199 --> 01:11:30,920
shot thirty four percent on thirty three point attests per

1599
01:11:30,920 --> 01:11:33,439
one hundred, and forty four percent of those were heavily contested.

1600
01:11:33,800 --> 01:11:38,560
So lower volume, lower accuracy, higher contest rate. Like, I think,

1601
01:11:38,680 --> 01:11:41,159
probably the biggest Tyree stat that I know of that

1602
01:11:41,239 --> 01:11:44,399
I was going to mention earlier that speaks to like

1603
01:11:44,479 --> 01:11:47,039
what he can do as being negative space and art,

1604
01:11:47,720 --> 01:11:50,640
is that the Pacers had one of like here I

1605
01:11:50,640 --> 01:11:53,560
have it. They're twenty ninth and the percentage of touches

1606
01:11:53,560 --> 01:11:55,800
that they were double teamed on last year twenty ninth,

1607
01:11:56,479 --> 01:11:59,720
and yet they took the lowest percentage of threes that

1608
01:11:59,720 --> 01:12:04,079
were contested, so without being double teamed, they weren't taking

1609
01:12:04,079 --> 01:12:06,800
contested threes, and some that's by design because they don't

1610
01:12:06,800 --> 01:12:10,079
take bad shots and they like to stampede catch a

1611
01:12:10,159 --> 01:12:12,319
lot to create angles to the rim, sometimes at the

1612
01:12:12,359 --> 01:12:15,239
cost of catch and shoot threes. But that's definitely a

1613
01:12:15,319 --> 01:12:17,680
tyrese haliber and stat in terms of their ability to

1614
01:12:17,760 --> 01:12:21,680
generate open shots because the ball moves so much more

1615
01:12:21,760 --> 01:12:24,520
quickly than the defense. The ball is always staying ahead

1616
01:12:24,520 --> 01:12:26,960
of the defense in rotation because of what decisions he makes.

1617
01:12:27,039 --> 01:12:31,399
So I think that the shooting, and because of the shooting,

1618
01:12:31,439 --> 01:12:33,279
I don't think that they have an implicit way to

1619
01:12:33,359 --> 01:12:35,199
replace that right now. I don't know how they're going

1620
01:12:35,239 --> 01:12:37,039
to replace his pull up shooting. I guess if I'm

1621
01:12:37,119 --> 01:12:40,760
using Pascal Siakam's nineteen minute clip video. It definitely warmed

1622
01:12:40,800 --> 01:12:44,000
my heart that Andrew took and made to pull up threes.

1623
01:12:44,560 --> 01:12:46,399
And I like Andrew Demhart a lot. I think he

1624
01:12:46,439 --> 01:12:48,560
has a lot of guile as a pick and roll creator,

1625
01:12:48,600 --> 01:12:50,439
so I certainly hope that that's a thing that holds

1626
01:12:50,479 --> 01:12:52,680
for him. But that means they're going to need to

1627
01:12:52,720 --> 01:12:55,039
crash more. They might need to rim one more. They

1628
01:12:55,119 --> 01:12:57,600
might need to be a more physical team overall, So

1629
01:12:58,600 --> 01:13:00,239
I think that the shooting matters.

1630
01:13:00,840 --> 01:13:03,800
Speaker 1: That Tyre's Haliburton stat might have earned a Throwbacks to

1631
01:13:03,920 --> 01:13:06,560
zatz tweet, Tony East of Lockdown, Pacer said he missed

1632
01:13:06,560 --> 01:13:09,039
those that I used to call from every podcast. That's

1633
01:13:09,119 --> 01:13:13,359
a that's an insane number. Is there something about this

1634
01:13:13,439 --> 01:13:15,840
team that you think is flying under the radar and

1635
01:13:15,880 --> 01:13:17,840
deserves have more of a spotlight shined on it.

1636
01:13:18,359 --> 01:13:20,039
Speaker 2: I think I kind of already said it in that

1637
01:13:20,479 --> 01:13:22,720
I'm going to be keeping an eye on Johnny Furfey.

1638
01:13:23,560 --> 01:13:25,880
I do think you know, in a season when like

1639
01:13:26,000 --> 01:13:29,359
this isn't a development year, it's not a wasted year,

1640
01:13:29,760 --> 01:13:32,000
but in a year where you don't have Tyrese, you

1641
01:13:32,159 --> 01:13:34,680
want to be seeing development from key guys for when

1642
01:13:34,680 --> 01:13:37,079
they come back. And I'm not saying Johnny Furvey is

1643
01:13:37,079 --> 01:13:39,640
not as key in that area as the guys that

1644
01:13:39,680 --> 01:13:42,479
they drafted in the lottery. And obviously what Andrew's going

1645
01:13:42,560 --> 01:13:44,640
to do is a starting point guard, but I do

1646
01:13:44,680 --> 01:13:47,560
think that Johnny could be interesting depending upon what else

1647
01:13:47,600 --> 01:13:50,239
happens with the rotation. So I guess that's probably the

1648
01:13:50,239 --> 01:13:53,960
most like under the radar one because a lot of people, rightfully,

1649
01:13:53,960 --> 01:13:56,439
so are talking about Ben and Andrew and Jarris, so

1650
01:13:56,600 --> 01:13:57,680
I'll throw him in there too.

1651
01:13:58,439 --> 01:13:59,800
Speaker 1: I meant to ask you this when we were talking

1652
01:14:00,960 --> 01:14:03,319
Nemhard and Mathren. They have I don't know how much

1653
01:14:03,399 --> 01:14:06,159
attention you paid, like awards odds, they have like two

1654
01:14:06,239 --> 01:14:09,399
of the top four odds to win Most Improved Player.

1655
01:14:09,439 --> 01:14:10,520
Who do you think is going to be in a

1656
01:14:10,520 --> 01:14:13,800
position to maybe actual lives like have that better opportunity.

1657
01:14:13,800 --> 01:14:16,800
I think Ben Mathern's working from that lower baseline, which

1658
01:14:16,800 --> 01:14:18,039
I think can always help in that ward. But I

1659
01:14:18,039 --> 01:14:20,359
feel like Andrew Nemhart just might have more agency over

1660
01:14:20,399 --> 01:14:23,640
the offense, and so I almost would lean towards him.

1661
01:14:24,039 --> 01:14:27,359
Speaker 2: It's almost like they're going to be interrelated, right because, like,

1662
01:14:27,399 --> 01:14:30,720
if Andrew does more with agency over the offense, it

1663
01:14:30,800 --> 01:14:33,119
might be because somebody's lightened his load on defense. And

1664
01:14:33,159 --> 01:14:36,239
if somebody's lightning his load on defense, it might be Mathern.

1665
01:14:36,520 --> 01:14:38,960
So if Mathern makes progress as a defender and also

1666
01:14:39,039 --> 01:14:41,560
is like a twenty point per game score, you might

1667
01:14:41,640 --> 01:14:44,000
lean matherin. But I think in my head, the big

1668
01:14:44,079 --> 01:14:47,720
picture one is that let's say that and I'm not

1669
01:14:47,720 --> 01:14:49,479
saying this is gonna happen. But the Pacer started ten

1670
01:14:49,520 --> 01:14:52,159
and fifteen last year. If the Pacers start ten and

1671
01:14:52,199 --> 01:14:54,039
fifteen again this year, and they're like, we need to

1672
01:14:54,079 --> 01:14:58,079
make a starting lineup change, who between Nemhrder matherns the

1673
01:14:58,119 --> 01:15:01,359
most likely person not to start, Well.

1674
01:15:01,279 --> 01:15:02,920
Speaker 1: They all make room for Johnny Furfy. So I would

1675
01:15:02,920 --> 01:15:03,640
think that it's bad.

1676
01:15:03,720 --> 01:15:07,600
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's not gonna be Johnny Purphy, but there's no

1677
01:15:07,640 --> 01:15:10,359
way that Nemhard isn't going to start. They don't have

1678
01:15:10,439 --> 01:15:12,359
any other way around that, Like he would have to

1679
01:15:12,359 --> 01:15:16,000
be Like there would have to be other worldly things

1680
01:15:16,000 --> 01:15:19,560
for them to start TJ instead of Nemhart, but they

1681
01:15:19,680 --> 01:15:22,960
might need to make a tweak somewhere else. So, because

1682
01:15:22,960 --> 01:15:24,760
of my confidence and what he would do for the

1683
01:15:24,800 --> 01:15:26,720
full season, and because of what I already know of

1684
01:15:26,800 --> 01:15:29,399
Andrew Nemhard, my leen is Nemhart, but I think that

1685
01:15:29,439 --> 01:15:30,800
they both could certainly be in play.

1686
01:15:32,279 --> 01:15:34,000
Speaker 1: If I were to have you build a ten man

1687
01:15:34,119 --> 01:15:37,319
rotation for the Indiana basers, what is the starting lineup

1688
01:15:37,319 --> 01:15:39,279
and then who are the five most used reserves?

1689
01:15:40,000 --> 01:15:45,359
Speaker 2: So Andrew Matherinnie Smith, Siakham, and I just I lean

1690
01:15:45,479 --> 01:15:48,159
Jay Huff because I think it's going to be important

1691
01:15:48,199 --> 01:15:52,479
to try to replicate what Miles did for Pascal, because Pascal,

1692
01:15:52,960 --> 01:15:55,359
like last year, he had his lowest usage rate since

1693
01:15:55,359 --> 01:15:57,560
he won a championship with Toronto and was third field

1694
01:15:57,840 --> 01:16:02,199
Kawhi and Kyle Lowry. He had his lowest touches per

1695
01:16:02,239 --> 01:16:06,399
one hundred possessions since his sophomore season. So he's going

1696
01:16:06,479 --> 01:16:08,079
to have more of the basketball and he might need

1697
01:16:08,119 --> 01:16:10,239
to do more as a secondary ball handler if you

1698
01:16:10,279 --> 01:16:12,159
want to be entering the ball into the post more

1699
01:16:12,199 --> 01:16:13,760
with him in the ways that I talked about where

1700
01:16:13,760 --> 01:16:15,920
they like, you know, that high low from the top

1701
01:16:15,960 --> 01:16:17,840
of the key out of pistol. It's going to be

1702
01:16:17,880 --> 01:16:19,520
easier to do that with jay Hoff than it's going

1703
01:16:19,560 --> 01:16:23,279
to be with Isaiah, and getting to alignments, like I said,

1704
01:16:23,319 --> 01:16:24,720
with a guard in the dunker is going to be

1705
01:16:24,760 --> 01:16:27,039
easier with Jay Hoff than it is with Isaiah. And also,

1706
01:16:27,439 --> 01:16:30,000
Jay Hoff's not coming off an Achilles injury. So I'm

1707
01:16:30,039 --> 01:16:31,840
not saying it will stay that way the whole season,

1708
01:16:32,479 --> 01:16:34,880
but that I would be surprised if that isn't the

1709
01:16:34,880 --> 01:16:37,079
way that it starts. And also just because the bench

1710
01:16:37,119 --> 01:16:38,520
kind of makes a little bit more sense to me

1711
01:16:38,880 --> 01:16:41,800
to also have an inside out option with Isaiah playing

1712
01:16:41,800 --> 01:16:45,760
with Obi toppin rather than the other way around. So

1713
01:16:46,079 --> 01:16:47,479
I kind of look at that. I think that the

1714
01:16:47,520 --> 01:16:52,119
second unit will be TJ Ben shepperd Jaris and Obie

1715
01:16:52,159 --> 01:16:57,119
and Isaiah Jackson with James Wiseman and Johnny Furfey on

1716
01:16:57,199 --> 01:16:58,119
the outside looking in.

1717
01:16:59,520 --> 01:17:02,119
Speaker 1: So this this is obviously to some extent matchup dependent.

1718
01:17:02,239 --> 01:17:04,039
But what do you think will wind up being their

1719
01:17:04,159 --> 01:17:07,439
go to closing lineup? Because right now without Tyresa feels

1720
01:17:07,439 --> 01:17:09,199
like there are three locks unless you want to throw

1721
01:17:09,239 --> 01:17:12,399
Mathron in his lock, but like nemhrd Siakam and Nie

1722
01:17:12,399 --> 01:17:14,039
Smith just feel non negotiable there.

1723
01:17:14,520 --> 01:17:16,520
Speaker 2: Yeah, for sure, I mean I think I would probably

1724
01:17:16,560 --> 01:17:19,039
just say whoever ends up being the starting lineup would

1725
01:17:19,039 --> 01:17:23,159
be most likely. But my second lean there would probably

1726
01:17:23,199 --> 01:17:26,760
be Obi like going small with Obi at the five.

1727
01:17:26,800 --> 01:17:28,840
They did that enough in the playoffs that I could

1728
01:17:28,840 --> 01:17:33,720
see them using that routinely as a closing lineup and

1729
01:17:33,880 --> 01:17:37,199
just trying to still maintain the five out while keeping

1730
01:17:37,239 --> 01:17:40,159
the speed offensively because a lot of times teams like

1731
01:17:40,199 --> 01:17:42,720
to slow down in the fourth quarter. But the Pacers

1732
01:17:42,720 --> 01:17:45,199
have been very outright and saying like we would prefer

1733
01:17:45,600 --> 01:17:47,439
like we don't want to be an isolation team, and

1734
01:17:47,479 --> 01:17:49,359
that matters even more now that they don't want to

1735
01:17:49,359 --> 01:17:52,479
be an isolation team. And Obi certainly helps you play

1736
01:17:52,520 --> 01:17:56,720
fast on possession, So I could see a situation where

1737
01:17:56,720 --> 01:18:02,680
it's nem Hard Matherin, Obie Seawkham Knee Smith. Although, like

1738
01:18:02,720 --> 01:18:04,960
I will say, the defensive lineups when mathering and topping

1739
01:18:04,960 --> 01:18:07,039
we're out there at the same time, really we're not good.

1740
01:18:07,840 --> 01:18:10,000
So there might be a situation, like I would say,

1741
01:18:10,000 --> 01:18:12,840
my first one is the starters, next one would be Obi,

1742
01:18:13,319 --> 01:18:14,880
and then the next one. There might be a situation

1743
01:18:14,920 --> 01:18:16,760
where you might close with Ben Shepherd if defense is

1744
01:18:16,800 --> 01:18:17,479
more important to you.

1745
01:18:18,680 --> 01:18:21,159
Speaker 1: Is there a weirdo quirky lineup you want to see

1746
01:18:21,199 --> 01:18:22,600
Rick Carlisle try this season?

1747
01:18:23,439 --> 01:18:25,840
Speaker 2: I mean, I might like to see more of like

1748
01:18:26,199 --> 01:18:29,359
just you know, if injuries were to happen, knock on

1749
01:18:29,439 --> 01:18:32,079
Wood seeing a little bit more a Jarris and Johnny

1750
01:18:32,119 --> 01:18:34,560
Furfey together just because that gives you a lot more

1751
01:18:34,600 --> 01:18:36,720
size in the gaps, and they're so different from each

1752
01:18:36,760 --> 01:18:38,880
other that I don't think that they would really infringe,

1753
01:18:39,319 --> 01:18:43,680
either defensively or offensively, and potentially try that when Obi's

1754
01:18:43,680 --> 01:18:45,720
the rim protector, again just to see what it looks like.

1755
01:18:45,760 --> 01:18:49,359
Hopefully it doesn't devolve into quite as much TJ ball.

1756
01:18:49,920 --> 01:18:52,520
And then maybe if you needed to go really small

1757
01:18:52,560 --> 01:18:53,560
at the end of the game, like when I was

1758
01:18:53,560 --> 01:18:55,920
talking about that press lineup, maybe you look at Jarris

1759
01:18:55,920 --> 01:18:59,000
and Siakam together as you're four and your five. And

1760
01:18:59,000 --> 01:19:00,600
then also, like I was just trying to think up

1761
01:19:00,600 --> 01:19:03,039
like the fastest possible lineup you could play, and I

1762
01:19:03,079 --> 01:19:07,239
was like, what if you did like TJ Shepherd, aaron

1763
01:19:07,319 --> 01:19:11,720
Ne Smith, Johnny Furfey, Obi topping, Like that's a preseason lineup, Like,

1764
01:19:11,800 --> 01:19:14,079
let's see that in a preseason lineup, just to see

1765
01:19:14,079 --> 01:19:16,199
how fast they could play. It's not gonna get put

1766
01:19:16,239 --> 01:19:19,039
out there in a regular season game, but like that's

1767
01:19:19,079 --> 01:19:21,560
the speedsters.

1768
01:19:20,760 --> 01:19:23,439
Speaker 1: You because you talked me into putting Johnny Furfey in

1769
01:19:23,520 --> 01:19:25,479
mind just throughout this podcast, would not have been what

1770
01:19:25,520 --> 01:19:28,039
I listened at the beginning. I think we should take

1771
01:19:28,079 --> 01:19:30,159
that lineup that you just said and let's just sub

1772
01:19:30,159 --> 01:19:32,600
about TJ. And we'll throw Tailent Peter in there. Let's

1773
01:19:32,640 --> 01:19:34,159
just let's really just this.

1774
01:19:34,199 --> 01:19:37,079
Speaker 2: Is the Dan and Caitlyn lineup, so I we will

1775
01:19:37,079 --> 01:19:39,640
never see a minute of life in the regular season,

1776
01:19:39,720 --> 01:19:42,239
but in preseason time in the fourth quarter, let's.

1777
01:19:42,119 --> 01:19:45,279
Speaker 1: Go what about if they're like garbage time in the

1778
01:19:45,279 --> 01:19:47,479
regular season, Like yeah, like maybe they're up by twenty

1779
01:19:47,560 --> 01:19:51,840
or something like, let's roll that out there. Let's have it, uh, Caitlin,

1780
01:19:52,039 --> 01:19:54,760
Before I ask you some predictive questions, is there any

1781
01:19:54,760 --> 01:19:57,079
one anything else about this team we haven't talked about

1782
01:19:57,079 --> 01:19:58,399
that you think needs to be discussed?

1783
01:19:58,840 --> 01:20:00,920
Speaker 2: No, I think that I think that we've covered it

1784
01:20:01,039 --> 01:20:04,399
extremely thoroughly. People at this point are probably like, how

1785
01:20:04,439 --> 01:20:06,279
much longer is this podcast is going to be?

1786
01:20:06,479 --> 01:20:08,520
Speaker 1: No, the people that are listening to the look Aheads

1787
01:20:08,520 --> 01:20:10,399
are the ones that want these things to go on forever,

1788
01:20:10,520 --> 01:20:14,119
rest assured, So they're waiting with baited breath to find

1789
01:20:14,119 --> 01:20:17,760
out your answer to this question. What's a realistic number

1790
01:20:17,760 --> 01:20:20,600
of games for this team to aim to win? And

1791
01:20:20,600 --> 01:20:22,600
where do you see them stacking up in the larger

1792
01:20:22,720 --> 01:20:24,279
context of the Eastern Conference.

1793
01:20:24,680 --> 01:20:26,920
Speaker 2: I mean, I think Vegas had them at what thirty eight?

1794
01:20:27,000 --> 01:20:30,159
I think I might be tempted to take slightly over there.

1795
01:20:30,600 --> 01:20:32,479
The thing that I can't shake from my mind is

1796
01:20:32,479 --> 01:20:34,880
that they started ten to fifteen last year and there

1797
01:20:34,960 --> 01:20:37,479
was a lot of contributing factors as to why that was,

1798
01:20:37,520 --> 01:20:40,359
but the biggest one is that Tyrese was limited and

1799
01:20:40,399 --> 01:20:42,279
now they're not even going to have a limited version

1800
01:20:42,319 --> 01:20:45,840
of tyres for the benefit of his gravity, because despite

1801
01:20:45,840 --> 01:20:47,680
the fact that he was struggling and some of those

1802
01:20:47,720 --> 01:20:50,600
games early on, teams were still picking him up full

1803
01:20:50,600 --> 01:20:52,199
court and that was in part why he was struggling,

1804
01:20:52,199 --> 01:20:56,039
because he had to adjust to that physicality, match the

1805
01:20:56,079 --> 01:21:00,119
friction as a screener, to get himself loose, adapt to

1806
01:21:00,279 --> 01:21:03,439
having to play off the ball more. And like I said,

1807
01:21:03,439 --> 01:21:05,840
there was other things like not having Aaron and Andrew

1808
01:21:05,880 --> 01:21:10,159
and Ben certainly mattered to their defense and getting their

1809
01:21:10,159 --> 01:21:12,279
offense right and having to adapt and find the right

1810
01:21:12,319 --> 01:21:15,560
playing combinations. Like all those things happened, but they were

1811
01:21:15,600 --> 01:21:17,600
still ten and fifteen when the season started, and now

1812
01:21:17,600 --> 01:21:20,479
they're not even gonna have Tyrese. So I would take

1813
01:21:20,560 --> 01:21:22,279
this slightly over there, and I think that I would

1814
01:21:22,279 --> 01:21:24,560
probably have them in like the seven eight nine range

1815
01:21:25,000 --> 01:21:28,119
I think is realistic, and I will say this that

1816
01:21:28,279 --> 01:21:30,960
like that's probably a little bit lower than the fan

1817
01:21:31,000 --> 01:21:33,840
base thinks. Overall, I think that they're like the fan

1818
01:21:33,880 --> 01:21:36,279
base seems really enthused and rightfully so, because I think

1819
01:21:36,279 --> 01:21:37,920
that they do have a lot of exciting young players,

1820
01:21:37,920 --> 01:21:39,720
and I think that the season could still be meaningful.

1821
01:21:40,000 --> 01:21:41,840
But I will say there is if they got into

1822
01:21:41,840 --> 01:21:44,800
a play in tournament situation, I think I'd be pretty

1823
01:21:44,800 --> 01:21:47,039
confident about their ability to fight out of that, just

1824
01:21:47,079 --> 01:21:49,439
because all these guys have so much playoff experience and

1825
01:21:49,840 --> 01:21:52,359
I really trust that coaching staff that in a one

1826
01:21:52,399 --> 01:21:55,279
game situation to like come up with a really strong

1827
01:21:55,319 --> 01:21:58,199
game plan. So I think that the playoffs could potentially

1828
01:21:58,239 --> 01:22:01,520
still happen, but I don't want to set unrealistic expectations

1829
01:22:01,520 --> 01:22:03,199
without Tyres being there. And I do think that they

1830
01:22:03,199 --> 01:22:05,720
find themselves in a kind of a win win situation

1831
01:22:05,800 --> 01:22:07,560
where like, if they were to make the playoffs, that's

1832
01:22:07,560 --> 01:22:10,640
going to because Mathern or nem Hard or Jerris or

1833
01:22:10,640 --> 01:22:13,079
all three of them really took some strides that will

1834
01:22:13,119 --> 01:22:15,680
be valuable when Tyres does come back. And if they

1835
01:22:15,720 --> 01:22:17,640
don't make the playoffs, they're getting a lottery pick in

1836
01:22:17,680 --> 01:22:19,399
a season that Tyree's is going to be coming back.

1837
01:22:19,479 --> 01:22:23,840
So I think either way, like all things considered, that's

1838
01:22:23,880 --> 01:22:25,760
that's a good place to find themselves.

1839
01:22:25,399 --> 01:22:28,800
Speaker 1: In Caitlin and feel free to use this as another

1840
01:22:28,840 --> 01:22:31,079
form to talk about Johnny Furfy, But could I get

1841
01:22:31,199 --> 01:22:34,399
one PACER's prediction from you for this coming season.

1842
01:22:34,600 --> 01:22:36,239
Speaker 2: I don't think this is going to be super hot

1843
01:22:36,279 --> 01:22:38,239
because this could go a number of ways. But I

1844
01:22:38,279 --> 01:22:40,359
think that the starting lineup they start the season with

1845
01:22:40,479 --> 01:22:42,600
won't be the starting lineup that they finish the season with.

1846
01:22:43,399 --> 01:22:45,159
And that could be because they make a trade. That

1847
01:22:45,199 --> 01:22:48,800
could be because they toggle centers, that could be because

1848
01:22:48,880 --> 01:22:51,640
they look, you know, in other places like I think

1849
01:22:51,680 --> 01:22:54,439
that nem Hard, Nismith, and Siakam are pretty guaranteed, but

1850
01:22:55,399 --> 01:22:58,279
I wouldn't be surprised if the other two spots get

1851
01:22:58,279 --> 01:23:00,560
finagled or if they made a mid season that might

1852
01:23:00,640 --> 01:23:01,479
lead them to start.

1853
01:23:01,479 --> 01:23:04,359
Speaker 1: Somebody else got to clear the runway for Johnny Furphy.

1854
01:23:04,399 --> 01:23:07,359
I get it. I totally understand it. Uh, Caitlin, this

1855
01:23:07,520 --> 01:23:09,399
was great as always. Thank you for giving me so

1856
01:23:09,479 --> 01:23:10,960
much of your time. Thank you for giving me so

1857
01:23:11,039 --> 01:23:12,600
much of your insight, or you able just to tell

1858
01:23:12,600 --> 01:23:14,560
our audience where they could find you in all the

1859
01:23:14,600 --> 01:23:16,000
magnificent work that you do.

1860
01:23:16,399 --> 01:23:18,119
Speaker 2: So if you're at YouTube, you will see on the

1861
01:23:18,159 --> 01:23:20,279
screen that my handle at X is at C two

1862
01:23:20,359 --> 01:23:23,479
underscore Cooper. My handle at Blue Sky is my full name,

1863
01:23:23,560 --> 01:23:27,720
Kaitlin May Cooper and spelled the same way as Caitlin Clark,

1864
01:23:28,960 --> 01:23:32,720
the one truth spelling of Caitlin. But then if you

1865
01:23:32,720 --> 01:23:34,239
go to either of those places, the link to my

1866
01:23:34,239 --> 01:23:37,159
patreons there patreon dot com slash basketball, she wrote, is

1867
01:23:37,159 --> 01:23:38,760
where you'll find all my work and if you want

1868
01:23:38,800 --> 01:23:41,159
to check out, I put all my YouTube videos over there.

1869
01:23:41,279 --> 01:23:43,199
But on YouTube it's just my name as well and

1870
01:23:43,600 --> 01:23:45,359
Samson and I. If you want to go back and

1871
01:23:45,359 --> 01:23:47,640
relive the playoffs, all of our playoff videos are there.

1872
01:23:47,680 --> 01:23:50,279
We did do the one about Pascal, and then I

1873
01:23:50,359 --> 01:23:52,159
tried to do the interview that I did with Rick

1874
01:23:52,199 --> 01:23:55,279
Carlisle in a way that it would hopefully remain and

1875
01:23:55,319 --> 01:23:58,520
stay evergreen. I wanted to talk about, you know, broader

1876
01:23:58,640 --> 01:24:02,439
NBA concepts and what random Offense has meant to him

1877
01:24:02,479 --> 01:24:04,239
over the course of his career, and he've been touched

1878
01:24:04,279 --> 01:24:06,479
on it from his time as a player, So I

1879
01:24:06,520 --> 01:24:08,560
think that that one be'll be able to be re

1880
01:24:08,680 --> 01:24:10,560
listened to, despite the fact that some of it was

1881
01:24:10,600 --> 01:24:13,159
certainly timeliness with this current version of the team. But

1882
01:24:13,720 --> 01:24:15,439
if you just want to learn more about random offense

1883
01:24:15,479 --> 01:24:17,600
and basketball in general. Obviously, there isn't going to be

1884
01:24:17,880 --> 01:24:20,159
a better source for Pacers basketball than just listening to

1885
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the head coach of the team.

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Speaker 1: You can also find the links to kaylen Patreon and

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YouTube channel in now a podcasting YouTube descriptions to go

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check those out. Kaylin, thank you so much again. As

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you know by now I will be past read you

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again Dot Coast.

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Speaker 2: Oh, it's a pleasure. Thanks for having me.