Speaker 1: I was woken up in the night to a long
wailing sound, and I thought, well, that's interesting. I wonder
what that was. It was far off, and I went
right back to sleep, no problem at all. I wake
up in the morning. The weather's changed. It's like partly cloudy,
pretty nice out. I unzipped the entrance to my tent
and there's a big, old muddy impression about four feet
part of my tent.
Speaker 2: And I was thinking, you know, it wasn't that wet
when I had gone into the tent.
Speaker 1: It just didn't seem right that I could have made
an impression like that in the mud. I don't think
it was that money when I went to bed, so
I shrugged that off. But then something funny happened. I
find it funny because I was totally non conscious of
what was going on in me when this happened. I
looked back and I think, what the heck. That just weird.
But I got the sense that I needed to leave.
Speaker 3: I'd like to welcome Norman Solely to the show. Norman
is the author of Before Patty Volume one, Patrick, the
Sasquat Human Hybrid, and Our Genetic Inheritance. But he's not
just an author. He's also an experiencer and an enthusiast. Norman,
thanks for coming on. How are you?
Speaker 1: I'm doing great man, How are you doing?
Speaker 3: Doing all right?
Speaker 1: Now?
Speaker 3: You're up in the Great North? Is that correct?
Speaker 1: That is correct? I am an interior Alaska. I'm just
north of the Alaska Range. I'm actually talking to you
from my walk in cabin. It's two point six miles
from the closest road entry point, and it's got a
view of Danali, the tallest mountain in North America.
Speaker 3: Wow. Absolutely insane. Uh. You know, I watch a lot
of stuff on Alaska. It just amazes me that in
today's society that they're still frontier like that left and
people thrive there. Obviously you're one of them. How did
you end up in Alaska?
Speaker 1: Oh that's a good question. You know, I as a youngster,
I was struck by the whole mythology of Alaska, you
know Jack London novels, et cetera. And a friend eventually,
when I was twenty three twenty four told me about
an employment opportunity. Season all, I'll work at a resort
into Ali National Park. And I applied and I got
a job, and I figured it was a working vacation
that came up here and I really felt like this
is my kind of a place. And I've been here
mostly since then, and that was over forty years ago. Wow,
I spent some time in the lower forty eight. But
when I get to come back here, I'm very grateful.
Speaker 3: Now. In my mind, Alaska has always been the idea
habitat where you would find a Sasquatch. What is the
Alaskaan lore like? Whenever it comes to sasquatch.
Speaker 1: The lore is old and contains a lot of information
the Alaska Natives. Generally, all the Alaska Natives have a
history of the hairy Man up here in Alaska. They've
got a long history. That's one thing. As opposed to
my own relatively friendly experiences, the Alaska Natives tend to
be a little fearful of hairy man. There is even
areas in Alaska that are known to be no go
areas where you just don't want to go into if
you want to avoid trouble. I don't seem to be
having that particular issue myself. What I also find fascinating
about Alaska Native beliefs is it's not just Sasquatch. They
also believe in a small, little person type of being
that only gets up to about two feet three feet tall.
They believe in another that gets up to about five
feet and that's the one they're really concerned about. Supposedly
they even use those narrows and they follow the caribou.
And then there's the Alaska Mountain giant phenomenon, which that
scares me and I want nothing to do with that.
Of the belief is if you see it an Alaska
mountain giant, that's probably the last you're gonna see. That's
about it. Yeah, that they are heavily predating upon humans
when you get the chance. A bizarre phenomenon. I do
not understand it. It doesn't seem to be quite a
typical animal as we think of them. And there's even
in far eastern Alaska, over towards the Yukon border, there's
a little bit of a belief in a monkey type
of being that actually has a tail, which makes no
sense in Alaska, but it's there in the mist.
Speaker 3: Now, are there active and regular reports coming in Alaska
that you're aware of? Do people actually see these things?
Does it go beyond just the folklore?
Speaker 1: Yes, there definitely is. There's sidings in Alaska. They're may
be not as many as you'd expect, but keep in
mind that Alaska is huge. We have only about nine
hundred thousand people in the entire state, but it's much
bigger than Texas, and the population is slowly declining all
the time. So our footprint, our Homo sapiens footprint in
Alaska is actually not huge. The road system is very
small compared to the state. People tend to cluster within
a mile or two of the road system. There are
remote villages all over the state, but once again, those
are just like points on a map. Most of Alaska
is large, unpopulated, and even along the road system, you
climb over a hill and drop down the other side,
and you are all alone. And the wildlife reflects that.
Where I'm standing right now, I've heard wolves, I've had
black bears here a couple of times. Grizzlies are a
distinct possibility. Caribou within a quarter mile of where I'm
standing in moose links. Lots of lots of potential for wildlife,
but one thing is we have an extremely harsh winter,
and because of that, the biodiversity is relatively low. There's
not a lot of mammals and the winters are so harsh.
Anything that lives up here ask to have a very
specialized strategy for making it to the winter. And that's
one thing that sasquatch researches up here have to deal with.
How they get through the winters. And that's a really
big question.
Speaker 3: I mean, do you have a theory on how they
do that? I mean, I just think of things. You know,
we don't have much information on these things obviously, other
than eyewitness testimony what they happen to observe and the
glimpses that they get. You have exposed fingers and toes.
I would think that would definitely cause a problem in
an environment like that during the winter.
Speaker 1: It causes a huge problem. You know, it can be
every winter here where I'm standing. You got to expect
that might hit minus forty. And that's the same in
fahrenheit or celsius. That's very cold. When I go out
at minus forty, I'm aware of. If there is one problem,
it could be fail you know, you break a leg,
something happens, you get wet, that might be it for you.
Minus twenty and above it not so sketchy, but below
minus twenty it gets sketchy. As far as theories, the
easy ones to have would include migration. They just leave
the area. They go underground, which I know even in
the lower forty eighth there's lots to talk about caves
and sasquatch. A variation of that theory is they might
go into a type of torpor, if not an outright hibernation,
that they may be able to slow their metabolism. Their
chloric needs are not great as long as they're in
a deep cave. They might be in the mid fifties
temperature wise, and they write it out. Some people even
think they do store food for the winter, and there's
a little bit of evidence that they do that in
some areas. But coupled with all that, I have found
tracks in early January on a river. And this is
a fairly remote location, which quinncidentally was only about five
to seven miles from where Chris McCandless met his end
in that bus. It was popularized in the book and
movie Into the Wild. It was very close to there
I found tracks. It wasn't terribly cold, it was like
ten above and it had been even warmer when I
think the tracks were made. There had been a Chinook,
and I think the temperature had gone up to about freezing,
which for an animal the size of sasquatch that is
largely hair covered, those are reasonable temperatures for it to
be out. And about these tracks that were literally on ice.
So that's one tough creature. But another interesting thing about
that time, which I'm still scratching my head about, is
there was lots of caribou in the area, and I
think that is a clue. The caribou when you were
on a snow machine, they would hardly take a second
glance at you. I remember leaving that area once and
I had to stop while dozens of caribou crossed the
trail in front of me. But we did a side trip.
On that trip, we were on foot. We came over
rise there was caribou eight long ways off, like a
thousand feet. They saw us and they bothted and ran.
There was something about us being upright bipeds just silhouetted,
probably the dark forms. The caribou did not like that.
So I can't explain it, but I suspect at that
point basquatch were preying on the caribou in that area
and that's why they were there. I even heard vocals
on that trip, So I don't know if that if
what I have experienced really matches the theories of what
they do in the winter. When you get right down
to it, you kind of have to just conclude that
they have a way of not being in places that
aren't good for them and for returning when they want to.
Speaker 3: Whenever there are local sightings, do you get a lot
of reports of them coming around people's property and like
potentially going through garbage or something like that, or is
it just more of just you know, those glimpses out
in the wild.
Speaker 1: I have had reports, and you know, I don't really
collect reports. I just have people who know that I'm interested.
They'll tell me things that they have heard, so they
people whatever's going on here keeps a pretty low profile.
There are some actual sightings here, but there's also just
a lot of odd things that happen and rattling off.
A couple that have to do with food. There was
one unfortunate gentleman who had a sled dog team, and
these were freight dogs. They were larger dogs, which means
they would have been sixty to one hundred pounds. These
are pretty big dogs. They had a team of these dogs,
and the guy went off, probably for the day, going
to the grocery shore door do some shopping. He came
back and all he found were chains and collars. Wow,
these large dogs were gone. He chalked it up to wolves.
But I don't know if I buy it.
Speaker 3: Yeah, that doesn't really make a lot of sense.
Speaker 1: No, it doesn't make a lot of sense. It's to
take that many dogs, and these are large dogs and
sled dogs. They're half wild because they're generally outdoors all
the time. It was a funny one. It was a
peculiar account that I heard, and I have my story
about the caribou being frightened. I know another case of
a person lost two ducks and talk that up to bears.
I don't know a lot of trash being gone through,
but I have had indications of something being around both
this remote cabin and I have a house only about
five miles from here that has more of the civilized amenities,
and I've had funny things happen there, and the slap
on the side of the house, that type of thing.
I've heard roosters where there's no roosters, though I've also
heard vocals and close I've heard the weird al sounds.
I probably shouldn't, but I have a gifting station on
the way up to this cabin, and sometimes of year,
like Apple's left Behind will disappear between me coming up
the trail and going back down the trail. Right now,
I don't have the sense of any things really hanging out.
But later in the summer, when the land comes a
little bit more alive and there's a little bit more
like berries and mushrooms to eat, I expect I'll fr life.
I'm not alone.
Speaker 3: Once again, How did you get interested in this subject?
To begin with?
Speaker 1: I'm afraid I'm a cliche there. My father took me
to a movie and in between features they showed the
Patterson Gimmlin film, the short documentary they initially had so
that film, and I'm guessing that was nineteen sixty nine
or so in Seattle, Washington, and I grew up in
Washington State, where even at that point there's toleration of Sasquatch.
You weren't completely kookie if you were interested in it.
My parents, particularly my mother, they always had books on
ghosts and unexplained phenomenon, et cetera. So I was from
a young age steeped in the mysterious and the unexplained,
and the Sasquatch was part of it. And as a
young teen, I just started checking out all the books
I could find, John Green, et cetera. I learned everything
I could, and eventually my family had a cabin in
the Washington State Cascades, and I even started to do
a little bit of poking around myself.
Speaker 3: So whenever you went poking around by yourself, I mean,
that's a pretty rare item for people just to kind
of take the leap and start looking around for things.
What were you looking for? What were you using as
like sort of a road map on how to look
for Bigfoot at that time?
Speaker 1: Oh, another good question. You know. I grew up with
Renee Dahinden, Grover Krantz, Don Green, Bob Chipmas. I was
looking for an elusive mountain ape and that's what I
thought I was dealing with, because that's what all the
experts were saying. It was an elusive mountain ape of
that was extremely rare and lived only in the most
remote locations. So that's that's what I thought I was
dealing with. We had a cabin up in the Cascades
near the town of Index, Washington, and I wouldn't call
this map gousing, but I literally pulled out the topographic
maps when I was ready to go out into the field,
and I picked out an area that seemed like if
I was in Lusive Mountain Ape, this is where i'd be.
It was a large remote off the trail system Mountain Lake,
and I'm just guessing maybe thirty five hundred and thirty
six hundred feet. I brought my fishing pole. I thought
i'd do some fishing there, and I picked out a
good route to getting up to this lake. Left the
trail behind, went up the spur ridge, which generally the
trees fall away from spur ridge, so even in older
growth timber, you can usually make your way along the
spur ridge without too much trouble. And it turned out
to be a great route up to the lake. I
got to the lake kind of late in the day,
hadn't found anything, hadn't seen anything obvious. But remember this
is about nineteen eighty and I was not sophisticated. I
didn't really know what to look for at that point.
I knew about tracks, I knew about tracks and strengthy noises.
That was about it. So I pitched my skins. I
ate some dinner, and it started drizzling rain and I
hit the hay kind of early and it rained most
of the night. I was woken up in the night
to a long whaling sound, and I thought, well, that's interesting.
I wonder what that was. And yeah, you know, even today,
I don't know everything about native animals, but that was
a funny sound. It wasn't a screech. It was a whale,
but it was kind of high pitched. It went on
long enough to wake me in for me to continue
listening to it for a bid. It was far off
and I went right back to sleep, no problem at all.
I wake up in the morning. The weather's changed. It's
like partly cloudy. It's pretty nice out. I unzipped the
entrance to my tent and there's a big, old muddy
impression about four feet part of my tent.
Speaker 2: And I was thinking, you know, it wasn't that wet
when I had gone into the tent. It just didn't
seem right that I could have made an impression like
that in the mud, because it really I don't think
it was that money when I went to bed, but
it didn't make sense. Pretty loose about me to step
right in front of my tent, right, that would be ridiculous.
Speaker 1: And you know, I couldn't see anything. It was just
like this gloppy mess in the mud right in front
of my tent. So I shrugged that off. But then
something funny happened. And I find it funny because I
was totally non conscious of what was going on in
me when this happened. I look back and I think,
what the heck, that's just weird. But I got the
sense that I needed to leave. And it wasn't like
overpowering fear. It was just like it's time to go.
And you know, I had planned this fishing around the
lake looking for tracks, trying to find muddy beaches, sand
or whatever, seeing what I could find. And I packed
up and instead of taking my nice spurriage down again,
which was all planned out, it was a relatively gentle
hike off trail, I just went straight down the mountain side.
And that was awkward. There was trees all over the place.
I'm climbing over trees. I keep moving and up. I
literally I had an old knee injury and I literally
re entered my knee. And I've been hearing a little
bit of noise above me on the hillside now and then.
But when I stopped to put an a spandage around
my knee, I should hear like cracking and breaking of
branches behind me. Not not obnoxious, not terribly loud. But
you're like this, Matt. I literally thought to myself, Boy,
that deer and elk around here. Sure are clumbering. Yeah,
that's what it is, yes, from behind me.
Speaker 3: Yeah, just following a human down the mountain.
Speaker 1: Yeah, it made no sense. But the longer I get
from that, the more I laugh at myself. So I
finished wrapping up. I head down. I've got just you know,
this urge, this push all the time. Go go go,
gon't stay around here. As soon as I hit the
open creek bed at the bottom of the valley that
just disappeared, the sun was shining warmly. I was listening
to the creek. I had not a chair in the
world once I was in that creek bed, but I followed.
I walked in the creek for the next mile and
a half until I met up with betrayal. I didn't
venture into the woods on either side of the creek,
but my mood is fine. I no longer felt like
I needed to hurry or get out of there or anything.
I just enjoyed myself. In fact, at one point I
managed to catch a small trout bear handed, just hooping around,
and I thought to myself, Wow, if I can do this,
Sasquats can do this. Yeah, and I'm sure they could.
But then a few years later, so you know, I
managed to think, well, maybe something did happen up there.
Maybe the whaling was the Sasquatch, I don't know. A
few years later I read a newspaper article. It was
in the Seattle Times, but it was of something that
happened in Belle w Washington, which at that point it
was more like a bedroom community. It was starting to
have a few larger buildings, but it was still it
was a town. It wasn't it wasn't like a farm
outa in the countryside. There was a report of someone
in one of the subdivisions on the outskirts finding bigfoot
tracks under his bedroom window, and I knew that didn't
make sense. But this is very explicit about the tracks.
I think it even reported two different size tracks under
the bedroom window.
Speaker 4: And that's not an elucid Mountain eight is going up
and looking in bedroom windows in bel w Washington, And
I knew that didn't compute, but I couldn't make the leap.
Speaker 1: And I literally I didn't avoid Sasquatch, but I kind
of stepped away for decades just thinking this doesn't make sense.
I'm not going to get to the bottom us. Yeah,
I stepped away for a long time.
Speaker 3: It's funny because so many people start out with that
same train of thought, myself included. And there there are
some overlaps in behavior patterns that we attribute to Bigfoot
and what we know about, say gorillas and orangutangs and
things like that. But primarily, I mean, the other large
primates and apes that we're aware of don't act anything
like what Sasquatch is reported to act. Like like you're saying,
a gorilla is not going to come up to your
bedroom window and peek in to see what's going on,
or follow you down a mountain. They're going to avoid
you at all costs, and you're probably not even gonna
know they're there.
Speaker 1: Yep. But then, as you say, we've got like the
skunkcakes in Florida that sound like some kind of overgrown
orangutang as some of the physiological features parking bacs to
the great apes, you know, the the sad to put
crest etste Yeah, it's it is very mysterious. We're at
a cross roads here.
Speaker 3: Have you had paranormal experiences in relation to this?
Speaker 1: That's funny everybody's asking you that, Yes, I have had
some paranormal experiences. The last place I was at I
spent some time in Massachusetts working on a farm when
I was told by the the woman there that she
thought I'd brought the paranormal to the farm. I think
they had things going on. They just didn't know what
to look for. But I was seeing things even there. Yes,
I've had paranormal The thing about the paranormal experiences matter
is they're not necessarily easily linked to sasquatch. Right, just
because you may have seen a sasquatch once, or found
some tracks or some scat, it doesn't mean everything that
happens to you is around pasquatch. There's probably lots out
there in this mysterious world that can do funny things.
But I've had experiences right here in this cabin that
that just make you scratch my head. And one did
have a length the Sasquatch, and if I might, I'll
just go ahead and launch into that one.
Speaker 3: Yeah. Sure, I'm.
Speaker 1: I'm pretty fit, I'm very active, but I'm getting to
belong in the two. I still make this hike up
this two point six miles up to my cabin, and
I love it and I love the hiking. But since
I've come back to Sasquatch, I've become much more aware
of what might be going on, and it's on my
mind sometimes since I'm hiking. Not to mention the grizzly bears,
although frankly the bears scare me more than Sasquatch does.
One time, as I got up to this cabin, I
had been really thinking about what the potential of sasquatching
these woods means. And I got to the cabin A okay,
no problem. I stepped into the cabin, and generally when
I get into the cabin, the first thing I do
is I head for a thermometer that's hanging from the
wall from a nail, and I look at the temperature
to side. Am I going to start a fire in
the woodstove or is it warming up in here? As
I'm walking towards that pond, thermometer. I have a little
what I thought it was an epiphany. I think to myself,
you know, if sasquatch wanted to, they could easily force
people like me in remote places to go back to
bigger cities. And I'm finishing that spot. As I glanced
at the thermometer, I turned my head a few degrees,
the thermometer pops off the wall and lands on my feet.
That timing was just so hard to really to die.
I had literally been drinking that thought, which might have
attracted some attention. If something's able to know what I'm thinking,
which is a very unsettling thought in itself, and I've
spent a lot of time trying to think, well, if
that was a reaction to what I was thinking, what
was the mood of whatever popua thermometer offed that wall.
I prefer to think that it thought that was a
very charitable, unkind thing to think, and was kind of
annoyed at me that that's how I lived with myself
and keep coming up to the cabin rather than yeah,
we could we might another time in the cabin and
that this is totally bizarre. It's a small cabin, but
it's got a half locked where I sleep. I feel
better upstairs. The doors bolted. I go upstairs to bed,
so I generally sleep well because I've been exercising. Every
time I'm up here, I wake up and I just
do that instinctive kind of yawn stretchy thing, or make
this this long noise. You know, we probably all wake
and make a noise like that when we wake up.
As soon as I was done making noise, I heard
the exact same noise. It was me, but it was
coming from beneath me, in the kitchen area below the
locked it was. It was the same sound. It was.
It wasn't an imitation of me. It was the sound
I had just made. And what's really interesting is I
didn't I didn't freak out. I didn't I wasn't upset,
I wasn't frightened. I had my clothes up there. I
got up, I got dressed. I start heading down the
steep ladder stairs I have and I do look around
down into the kitchen as I'm coming down the stairs,
and of course there's nothing there. And I literally got
down on my hands and knees looking for hair of
the floor. The door is still both the shut from
the inside and there's nothing. I can't find anything there.
There's no sign. But it was odd that I really
felt like something been beneath me, and no particular reason
for this, but I got the sense of female sense
in that case, I can't tell you, Matt. And then
one more event in the cabin that is very much
like what you told me happened to you right before
we went to air Is. I have a battery charger here.
I had four double A batteries in it. I managed
to boggle the charger. I have a solar system with
an inverurter, and I've been trying to charge these rechargeable batteries.
I boggled the charger. The batteries go flying every which way,
and I was just determined to find all the batteries.
You know, how hard can it be? You drop the battery.
It's on the four somewhere. I'm searching my pockets, my boots,
the cuffs of my clothing. I pulled out the wind
the wood bin and emptied it. I pulled everything away
from the wall where this charger had been. I found
three out of four batteries. I could not find the
fourth battery. It was it was just not to be found,
I give up, I go away. I come back two
weeks later, approximately laying out in front of the porch
where right where I can look at right where I'm
standing is a single double a battery laying out on
the dirt about fifteen to twenty horizontal feet away from
where I dropped those batteries with the door closed. I
can't explain it, but like I said, for me, the
sense is often kind of fun. It's like pulling my leg,
keasing me.
Speaker 3: I actually had a thought whenever you were talking about
that first trip you made looking for these things, and
it made me think about some of my own experiences
and some of the experiences I've heard from other people. Again,
these things, no matter what they are, they're extremely rare.
We know that what are the odds that you go
out looking for them? And I understand you're not claiming
that anything you experienced with sasquatch, we don't know that
it was. But you did hear a strange vocalization and
then find that impression directly in front of your tenth
the next.
Speaker 1: Day, and the breaking branch sounds as I'm going down,
and the strange mood I was in where I had
to leave immediately.
Speaker 3: And your intent was to go out there and find
these things. Yes, I'm assuming you had been in the
woods before and those things hadn't happened.
Speaker 1: You know, we had a cabin in the woods. I
was up in the woods all the time. I loved
the woods. And I can only think back on some
funny stuff I noticed about trees that I at the
time thought, now, that looks like something climbed that tree
invented over. I can't recall much of anything, but I
wasn't really looking. I wasn't tuned into it. But this
is a good issue, Matt. Why is it that I
will move to western Massachusetts. First, I just went out
there to see about the job I wanted. I frankly
wanted to see if there's sash squats flying around. And
I took a little walk in the woods of the
property and I found the lean take circle, which the
ordance didn't know about. And then I eventually find a
neighbor has seen a sasquat out the window, and another
neighbor sawone cross the road in front of him. And
I'm finding stick stick phenomenon everywhere I go. Not everywhere,
but I had a trail I would take. It was
within lock of where I lived. I would find things there. Eventually,
in late summer, the orchard troops were stripped overnight where
including a plum tree twenty feet from my back door.
Of what's good if they are so rare after I'm
getting his experiences all the time, I don't get it, really.
Speaker 3: So let's talk a bit about your book first. I
want to hear about your discovery of this paper and
what led to your book.
Speaker 1: So in twenty nineteen, I was by that point back
in the Sasquatch world excited about it, and I decided
to give myself the chance to go to the Tree
Thoy nineteen International Big Book Conference. And I was living
in Alaska, so it's kind of a big deal for
me to get to any of these events. That was
in the Trisnes area of Washington State. It was put
on by Russell Lecord and one of the speakers to
make this an international Bigfoot conference was doctor Igor Burtzev
from Russell. He's part of the International Center of Hominology,
and he did a talk heavily accented. It was hilarious.
Russell actually went up on stage to act as in
quotes translator, which just meant he had heard doctor Igor
first of speaking up that he kind of got the
gist of what he was saying, So you go, yeah,
a couple that wrestler would repeat them didn't better to good.
But I was fascinated. I was already aware that Asia
has some phenomenon similar to what we have, but doctor
Bertsta made it obvious that they've got a long history
of it. They probably have had a little bit more
of the scientific world embracing research there, particularly in Russia,
but also France. France has produced some interesting people. And
then he mentioned that he had a book. I thought, well,
cool booked from Russia about Siberia and Russian sasquatch phenomenon.
I got to take a look at this book. Right
after his talk, there was a break in the conference,
and so I headed for the vendor tables. And even
though I went direct, half dozen or ten people beat
me there to egor quible. So egor Bertstev had a table.
He had stacks of his book here, a large glossy
book filled with black and white and color photos, A
fascinating book. You can get lost in it. But doctor
Burtsa wasn't there yet. What I think had happened is
Russell had assigned one of his his uh staff helped
with the confidence just watch the table, make sure none
of the books walk while doctor Burtsa was speaking. So
I pick up one of these books after I kind
of squeezed my way to the front, and I'm looking
at it and I think, wow, this is cool. Every
page has two columns. The left column is in Russian
and the right column is in English. And it's really
poor English. You could tell the doctor burts of a
lot of his own translating you gotta, you gotta kind
of work and reading it. Uh. So I asked the
young man and how much for the book? And he
looks kind of worried and says, oh, I don't know.
I was just told to watch everything. But just then
doctor burts walks up and the young man says, Doctor,
this gentleman wants to know how much for the book,
and Doctor Burtsa, before he's even quite gotten to the table,
he says loudly so that everybody can hear, three hundred
dollars what will would be hYP He goes, well, I
can't pay that much for a book, and she just
stomps off and you can hear kind of moans of
dismay from the group. You know, they're salivating too about
this book from Russia. And doctor Bertstu looks at me,
you know, he could tell that I'm kind of the
focal point of this particular issue. And he leans close
to me and he says, too much for you, two
hundred dollars, And I just pulled out my wallet and
gave him the cash. I thought, what's the chap. I'm
ever going to be able to get this book again
right from him and get a signature in it. And
I had a picture him slapping these heavy books through airports,
and he was already it's already in his seventies. At
that point, I figured, he's paying his way by selling
this book, and I want this book. So I got
the book. That was twenty nineteen. It wasn't until twenty
twenty two that I really started reading it thoroughly, going
through cover to cover, and I found my story. It
was doctor Bayanov. I'm not sure I'm pronouncing that correctly.
In two thousand and five. It was either an address
or a paper, or maybe he was reading the paper
as an address to a conference in Russia and In it,
he mentioned this story from North America that had been
investigated by doctor ed Bush. And I don't think he
live he was a doctor, but let's give him the
benefit of the doubt. Sure, an anthropologist in which he
had interviewed Calville Indians on the Calville Reservation in Washington State,
and they had told him that there had been in
an abduction by what they called the Scanticum, the same
thing as the Sasquatch, of an Indian woman late in
the nineteenth century the eighteen nineties, and she had escaped
but came back pregnant, and that she bore a child.
And I did not make this up with some cutesy
joke or anything. But the child was named Patrick, which
to me is just so purpet It's almost like all
this was pre arranged for our reading enjoyment. The child
named Patrick. Patrick was able to marry easily, although he
looked peculiar, but he was very intelligent, and he was
a good rancher and farmer. He married easily, and he
had children of his own and buying I kind of
signed off of this one little account by saying, I
wish that somebody in North America would be as diligent
as doctor Bertsa was about the Zana story in researching
this Patrick story, because it's gold. It's just it's dropped
in our lap. There's a lot of material here. So
I read that story and I thought, my goodness, doctor
Bien I was right. And it's now another almost twenty
years has passed and I hadn't heard of Patrick before,
although it is out there a little bit. Colitis has
written about it. Retmand lull Us Junior I think was
his name. He actually was able to interview with doctor
Foush back in two thy and twelve and videotape the interview,
but I haven't been able to find it. And one
other researcher I came across the Patrick story in the book.
What I did, though, is I assembled the facts that
I could find in the paper by Ed Foush, which
is online. You can find it online. It's in set
a big bigfoot ology site, and I give the web
address in the book I found the paper. I found
some are details in the paper about this Patrick account,
and I already knew at the time. Heather Moser of
Small Town Monsters. He's a producer with Small Town Monsters
and a researcher, but I also knew from knowing her
that she was really into Genie, and to me, this
was a genealogy puzzle at this point. So I dangled
the bare facts in front of her and she said, well,
let me take a look see what I can find.
About three days later, he comes back to me and
she says, I think I found him. And that was
quite a thrill to hear that from Heather, and I said,
hang on, can you do a report without revealing last
names to my Boial Bigfoot research group whom she herself
had interviewed maybe all the people in that group at
that time, so she knew everybody there. I was comfortable
with them, and she said, well, give me a couple
more days to make sure I'm really sure of this.
And found everything I can, and she did a little
presentation to the Boreal Bigfoot Research Group, which is in
the last new group of researches up here. We went
on to give a couple of expos in Fairbanks, Alaska,
which was cool, but she said, I think I found him.
But one thing I found is that the facts in
the census records, et cetera are a little different from
what Sufusha's paper. But I founded Patrick right place, right time.
But he didn't die at age thirty. He lived on,
and he had more children than what the paper says,
and he wasn't an ideal citizen. He actually got into
a lot of trouble and almost it almost seems like
on the Reds they didn't want to acknowledge him after
he kind of went south. He literally went off the
Reds and they just kind of called an end to
his life. I'm at age thirty, which is when he
started getting into serious trouble, so I insisted hither or
not tell me his last name. We talked about writing
a book. It became obvious that everybody else but me
was way too busy to write a book. Whereas my
life got simpler, I started researching. I bought myself a
subscription to Genealogical Service, and using just what was in
the d Foosh paper, very quickly I was convinced I
found Patrick also, and in the end, over one hundred
and sixty documents historical documents related to Patrick in his life,
including a delayed birth certificate, a death certificate, marriage certificate,
two draft cards. He had to register for two World
War drafts the poor guy I found In the end,
I had almost given up. I thought I found everything
I can find. I decided to do another search, not
using the last name as I knew it, but using
his the name his grandfather went by, which is only
different from his last name by one letter. But I
think what has happened? There was a white transcriber change
in there somewhere. But when I used that splightly different
last name with his grandfather's name, I found mugshots from
nineteenth twenty eight, which just astounded me. I had almost
given up on finding more. But my book before Patty,
volume one, has got pictures of Patrick in it, and
at this point every but he asked, well, what did
he look like? Was he Harry? Did he have the
cone head? He wasn't particularly harry. He had normal hair patterns,
He didn't have a cone head, but he did look weird.
He definitely looked weird as opposed to the goose paper.
He didn't have elongated years pulled upwards at the top.
I don't know where they got that. Ears are actually
kind of on the small side, which you know that
doesn't seem inconsistent. But what's really strange is they're low
set ears. If you look at yourself in the mirror,
you look at somebody else, you look the pictures of
the magazine. If you draw a line, there's somebody's pupils.
Generally the tops of the ears extend above that line.
And by generally I mean always. There's a medical condition
called low set ears. It'll it's alongside a couple of
genetic diseases. It'll show up there. But here his ears
are very low on his head, which once you're aware
of it, it just looks strange. There's also, of course,
it's a mugshot, so I've got a full on facial
and I've got a side view. In a side view,
you see not only are the low ears low, they're
also they're pulled closer to the mouth, which is weird.
And they're rotated from the top backwards down lower. Maybe
that's why they're they're low set ears, but they're rotated
on his head. Funny. He's also got a steeply sloping forehead.
I found a control amongst Pallville Indians that I used
as a comparison, and his forehead slopes at about a
twenty two degree sharper angle than that control. Forehead does,
so he has a sloping forehead.
Speaker 5: His eyes rather than being which is kind of counterintuitive,
but our eyes are generally pre munch midway in our
whole head.
Speaker 1: But his head slopes back and doesn't extend up as
far proportionally as they would on a quote normal almost sapiens.
But when you look at the side profile, his brain
case extends backwards. It isn't like a cone. It's not
like it's sticking up in a cone. It extends backwards,
even making a little bit of a shelf above his
neck and back. It's not an unheard of feature in people,
but you have to search around before you find somebody
with a skull profile like this. And what that did
was even though from the front it looks like he's
all faced and no brain, his brain is back behind
his face. It's not up on top. It's almost as
like the brain and ear structure was just rotated backwards
and down. So at first he gives the impression of
having a small head. But I did a lot of
work on side profiles. I actually imported photos into CAD
where I can take areas easily. I think his brain
was just as bigger, even slightly bigger than somebody proportional
to his size, so that was interesting. Another really striking
feature of the pictures from nineteen twenty eight was he
doesn't appear to have what's technically called the chin. If
you feel your own chin, you can feel you've got
a bony protrusion on the front of your front lower jaw,
and that's called the mentum.
Speaker 6: He doesn't seem to have the menum, which, and I'm
not saying this is a linkage, but Neanderthals almost never
showed any sign of a menum. They just have a
receding lower chin, much like a gorilla, word chimp, or
an orangutank. So that is really strange.
Speaker 1: It it's very hard to find Homo sapiens without that mentum.
Even some of the latter Neanderthals were starting to show
minor menums, and I suspect that was due to add
extra action almost sapiens who doesn't have a mentum. He
also has a what's called compressed cervical vertebrae. He had
a short neck. We think of sasquatch next as maybe
being buried in all the muscle, but Patrick has a
radically short nackets. It's proportionally. I think it was less
than half of what a normal proportioned human of his
size would be. So his head was low, perhaps also
giving this impression of having a small head. And Neanderthals
have that compressed cervical vertebrae. I don't know if that's linkage.
I suspect maybe all the early Homo species had that
compressed cervical vertebrae, and that we're the exception. So that
is all so weird. But you're gonna ask what was
he big? How big was he? I think, Matt he
was only five foot two inches tall. He was a shrimp.
His mother was described as tiny, so I suspect she
was less than five feet tall if she was thought
to be tiny compared to Patrick. He would regularly lie
about his height on documents. But when I could tell
he was getting measured, like for his World War two
draft card, I can tell there they actually weighed him
and measured him. It was five pot two in that one,
So he was short one hundred and thirty five pounds
one hundred and forty pounds. He was not a big guy.
He was described as extremely intelligent and a gentleman that
worked for him for five years and seemed to have
known him in many contexts. That he was a really
good card player, and he seemed to always know what
was in your hand. Just an odd little detail which
makes people like you who know a bit about the
Sasquatch world going, huh interesting.
Speaker 3: Now, is Patrick the son of Seraphane.
Speaker 1: Hell, you're doing some research there. No, this is a
different situation. I did talk about Seraphine Long. I believe
it was her name in the book. I do a
survey of the abductions that we know about. No, I
think she was in British Columbia, but I wouldn't swear
to it. I'd have to go look it up again.
But no, and it was approximately the same time. But
I believe Patrick was born in eighteen ninety one in
eastern Washington State on the Call Bill Reservation. But no,
this is a different case. His mother's name was hi Issiod.
She didn't at the time even have an English name
when she was abducted, but it was high Issiod. I'm
very careful in the book to not use last names
beyond I am part Patrick's birth. I just don't use them.
I know them. I got to a certain point where
I stopped investigating his descendants. I didn't want to know
the names of living people. I didn't want to have
them in my notes and my files, et cetera, because
I am I'm really concerned for these people. I'm concerned.
It's you know, we all want to know what's in
their genes, Compare them with the Catchum study, et cetera,
which shows up. But this has to be completely voluntary
and maybe anonymous. I don't know. I don't want people
reading my book and knocking on somebody's store, right, feel
terrible about.
Speaker 3: That, you know. I know that for some people listening
to this episode, this is a hard thing to swallow.
Obviously it's not a for sure one way or the other.
But I will say this, it's not unheard of, especially
in the Native American and First Nations communities, that this
sort of thing happens and that these people exist. Very
early on in my own Bigfoot journey, I was told
about some hybrid children that people knew directly. They knew
the family directly, and knew the story directly. You know,
there there were some things about those children behavior wise.
They were pretty rowdy, excellent climbers, not necessarily hair covered
or giants or anything like that. Again, and one interesting
thing about them was the rumor was that they had
these very thick haad like growths on their feet, on
the bottom of their feet, and that they were surgically
removed at one point and that they grew back. Yeah,
now who knows, right, Like, who knows? This is just
the stuff that you know, I was told by the
people that were told by the people that were living
in it. So but again not unheard of. And then
you have so many you know, hair samples and different
DNA projects that have occurred that have resulted in human results,
human contamination specifically, and I've always questioned, well, what if
it's not contamination. Yeah, we don't really know. Man, this
is just a really interesting case. What made you decide
to just actually go forward with the book? Though?
Speaker 1: No, that's another good question. And before I get that,
to go back to the credibility of the story, you know,
I spent two years researching this case. I worked hard
at it. I found so many documents. I got the
Foosh paper. I see how the facts that I'm finding
or matching up with the Foosh paper. So for me,
I did the work. But it was a lot of work.
I don't expect people to read this book and say, oh,
this is a done deal, this happened. Yeah, I expect
some sort of credibility issues. Of course, you know, that's
what we should do. We have to prove these things
before we accept them. Or it's just space. So that
I understand you asked them why I wrote the book,
why I felt it was important. And this is very subjective,
but I personally feel we've gotten off on the wrong
foot with whatever this phenomenon is, and we need to
stop what we're doing. We need to stop chasing things around,
making a nuisance of ourselves in the woods. What we
need to do, at the very least is approach sas
watch as if we are approaching an uncontacted tribe that
prefers overall not to be contacted in the Amazon. Now
in Brazil they now have a policy they don't contact
the tribes. Even if they become aware of a tribe
often such and such an area, they don't attempt to
contact them anymore. Generally, when you contact an uncontacted tribe,
the un content uncontacted tribe doesn't do very well afterwards.
It's a huge coach in shock. So whatever we have
going on. I think they deserve at least that much respect.
So it's really a personal thing for me. I don't
like being and hearing what I see in here. Sometimes
I think we need to change our approach. And until
we change our approach, which hasn't worked in over fifty years.
Until we change our roach, are the quality of the
information we get is not going to be any better
than the approach. I think we need to really more
let let whatever it is come to us, and I
think it will be much like UFOs And for instance,
we wouldn't shoot an alien to prove that aliens exist.
Most people wouldn't. We consider that, Barbara, and also very foolish.
That could get us into a lot of trouble. I
think we need to change our approach. And like the
UFO world, I think disclosure isn't going to come to
the government finally testing up and revealing the bodies they
have stored it for dicks or someplace. I think each
one of us has to have our own experiences and
realize that something's going on and gradually inform ourselves. I
think that's how it's going to happen.
Speaker 3: Yeah, I think you're definitely on to something with that
these things. Obviously, if you spend enough time studying this phenomenon,
whatever they are, they're extremely intelligent, far more intelligent than
what you probably think they are. And for whatever reason,
they do not seem to want to have much to
do with us. They have not presented themselves. They spend
most of their time actively hiding from us and going unseen,
and that has to be for a reason. And I
understand and agree completely that we should be respectful of that,
and instead of chasing them around, which I think is
a fruitless endeavor, Like you're saying, let them come to
us whenever they want to and on their terms.
Speaker 1: Yeah, the bonfire routine, that's that's a great way to
experience something, and that is letting them come to us.
And it takes the brave heart to sit around a
bonfire with your back to the dark woods. Yeah, waiting
for moys in the woods. But that's probably the way
to go, all right. You probably remember doctor John Bindernagel
when he was asked about gifting. He said, well, if
you want to make contact with an un contacted tribe,
you believe things for them you think they might like.
It's one way of going your friendly. Yeah, so I
know gifting is is kind of a nerve wracking thing.
And consider me here with with grizzlies, you know, leaving
the food out. It seems like a really dumb idea.
But on the other hand, if I let them know, hey,
I'm not hostile, and I'm actually we're on the friendly side.
I I don't want to be on the bad side
of whatever's in the woods here.
Speaker 3: The main part of the Patrick story would naturally be
the story of Patrick's mother. That would be the hardest
thing to establish to begin with, and that would kind
of set the tone for the whole idea to begin with.
I assume your book covers.
Speaker 1: That the first sentence is Patrick's mother. Okay, yeah, I
actually start out the first chapter really could be termed
historical fiction. It's based on the facts I could find.
But I try to recreate the scene of her abduction
and in chapter three her escape, and I do that
through a lot of research into the Callville tribes, into
the geography of the setting there, the food gathering buscanicum
or sasquatch phenomenon on there, and as they know of it.
But yes, haist Klakan is a central figure in the book.
I have huge sympathy for that woman. Can you imagine
what she went Absolutely not. I mean, that's it's just
an incredible story. She actually had Patrick off reservation, which
I think is another clue that, yes, something funny is
happening here. You know, at that time it wasn't that
easy to travel one hundred miles to a different town.
But I think she traveled back to where some of
her mother's family was to have Patrick away from the
reservation so she could kind of conceal the date of
the spur and make it seem more like her very
new husband was was actually the father, and that it
didn't trace back to the subduction.
Speaker 3: Wow.
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's quite a story. And so many documents, you know,
so many documents about Patrick's life. Ously, his mother not
so much, just because of the time period. She died
nineteen twenty six ish, about forty five years old. She
did live for a long time, she got to see grandchildren,
et cetera, but she didn't have a long life. Patrick
Patrick had a long life, even though it was a
hard life. I believe he lived to be seventy. He
actually died just north of the official Seattle city line
in nineteen sixty two. So, and he died very close
to where I entered Seattle on the very same day.
It's kind of weird. I moved to Seattle the day
that Patrick died in Seattle.
Speaker 3: Yeah, that is strange.
Speaker 1: It is strange. Yeah, when I discovered that, my mouth
just dropped open and I got a hold of my
sister immediately, because of course that was when she got
to Seattle as well.
Speaker 3: So the title before Patty volume one, is there a
volume two?
Speaker 1: Yep? Yeah, I was researching all three volumes simultaneously. But
we'll have a lot more to do on volume two.
So I mentioned earlier, we need to prove things and
not just accept things on faith. I found in my
research a lot of funny things about human evolution, Homo
sapiens in particular. But I found enough that I think
I can make a case for sasquatch being something that
might have evolved naturally, that it could be of dis earth,
that I can explain some of the peculiar physiological things
to do with sasquatch, and partly that's through hybridization effects,
et cetera. So I'm going to make a stab at it.
So volume two is going to be an evolutionarily plausible
explanation for the existence of sasquatch. That's between you and me.
I don't really believe it. I don't think I'm going
to quite pull it off, but I think it needs
to be tried. I think I need to make a
good faith effort to try this. You know, it's kind
of like balanced reporting. I gotta give it a shot, sure,
and I think I think I will give it a
pretty good shot, and I may even convince the people.
But I don't think I'm going to be convinced, but
you know, maybe I'll surprise myself. Volume three is the
weird stuff you asked right away about the paranormal. I
hate to say it, but I got the paranormal. And
it's not like every day, but like every six months
or so, something weird is going on in my life.
I'm starting doing his track of it all, but I'm
going to tackle the paranormal and of sasquatch, even though
it has been done. I'm gonna And Chris Nole just
came out with a great book and I realized he's
pretty much written by Volume three. But I've got a
slightly different angle, so I'll give it a shot. So
that'll be volume three. It'll be kind of bringing things
around full circle. Yes, I've tried to prove as a
physical being, but there's this other stuff and maybe I
can explain that too, maybe not.
Speaker 3: And where can people find your book?
Speaker 1: Well, the easiest way for me to say it is
just go to beforepatdi dot com. That goes to my
book website and there's links there. You can get it
if you're a wholesaler through ingram Spark on that website,
or you can go to Amazon and get it there.
It is up on Amazon. You can get it in
kindle and ebooks. You can get a paperback two different versions,
not different versions in terms of content, just different covers.
You can also get two different hardcovers. One has a
dust jacket suitable for libraries. So there's all sorts of options,
and I hope you find an interesting read. You can
also do before Patty dot com. You can email me,
and I'm not being flooded by emails at this point,
so I can pretty much guarantee I will respond to emails.
And I think in the book too, I give my
Gmail email in there, which is n a solely s O.
L L I E at Gmail dot com.
Speaker 3: And I will have the before Patty link in the
description to this episode, so just look there if you're
interested in checking out the book. I know I'm going to.
This is just an amazing story. And like I said
early on, I had heard, you know, rumors in the
Native American communities about some people like Patrick, and I've
continued to hear those stories and the story of Saraphane
long and there's just a few things that pop up
here and there over the years that kind of support
this sort of thing. Just too many similarities, you know,
how would all these different people come up with such
an absolutely bonker story like this, that Sasquatch, you know,
kidnaps someone and impregnates them and they give birth to
a hybrid child. It's it's a fascinating thing. I've enjoyed it. Norman.
Thanks for coming on and sharing your story and talking
about your book.
Speaker 1: Man, Thank you very much. I enjoyed jan here. It
was a good discussion. I had fun.
Speaker 3: Yeah, definitely, Uh, You're coming back on whenever volume two
comes out, for sure, I'll be sure.
Speaker 1: I'll let you know.
Speaker 3: If you've had an encounter with Sasquatch or something else.
You can't explain and you'd like to share your story
on the podcast, Email me at Bigfoot Crossroads at gmail
dot com. Check out the website Bigfoot crossroads dot com.
You can find links to my social media, past episodes, merchandise,
Everything you need all in one place, and until next time,
remember there's something in the woods.