WEBVTT 1 00:00:02.200 --> 00:00:10.599 You see, something's going to happen. What what's going to happen? 2 00:00:12.359 --> 00:00:12.880 I think. 3 00:00:15.480 --> 00:00:25.879 What I going up to help Welcome to the Occult 4 00:00:26.199 --> 00:00:29.120 Rejects this episode. I got a few of us with 5 00:00:29.199 --> 00:00:31.719 us tonight, and I was looking forward to this. And 6 00:00:32.240 --> 00:00:34.000 I know last time when she was on, she had 7 00:00:34.039 --> 00:00:36.119 mentioned that she had a book coming, so I was 8 00:00:36.200 --> 00:00:38.719 very very much looking forward to getting her back on 9 00:00:38.799 --> 00:00:40.280 to talk about that. You know, it was left having 10 00:00:40.280 --> 00:00:43.159 people on with books. And I will say this one 11 00:00:43.159 --> 00:00:46.960 I actually did start reading, so I don't so. And 12 00:00:47.119 --> 00:00:49.679 I also say there was a lot of things just 13 00:00:49.719 --> 00:00:51.960 in like the first fifteen to twenty pages that sorted 14 00:00:52.000 --> 00:00:54.280 like making me google shit, start thinking about stuff as 15 00:00:54.280 --> 00:00:57.079 an occultist. So if you are into the occult, I 16 00:00:57.079 --> 00:00:58.679 actually I can just tell you from the beginning of 17 00:00:58.719 --> 00:01:01.359 the book is some really interesting facts in there that 18 00:01:01.479 --> 00:01:03.719 you may not know about that could get you down 19 00:01:03.759 --> 00:01:05.159 different avenues and rabbit holes. 20 00:01:06.280 --> 00:01:08.400 But before we get to her, we will. 21 00:01:08.400 --> 00:01:12.159 Let everybody else plug their shows first, Ethan Indigo, let 22 00:01:12.200 --> 00:01:13.840 everybody know what is going on where they can find 23 00:01:13.840 --> 00:01:14.599 all the amazing stuff. 24 00:01:14.599 --> 00:01:18.200 Please, well, thank you so much Snick for involvement, and 25 00:01:18.319 --> 00:01:21.400 thanks to everyone for being here, always stoke to communicate 26 00:01:21.400 --> 00:01:23.640 with everyone. Gina, I know this is gonna be awesome 27 00:01:24.319 --> 00:01:29.400 exploration of symbolism. I am a writer, author, and the 28 00:01:29.519 --> 00:01:33.879 usual suspects trying to promote stuff and share interesting things 29 00:01:34.359 --> 00:01:39.959 Ethan Indigo Smith exoteric and esoteric writing, so I always 30 00:01:40.000 --> 00:01:41.040 appreciate communication. 31 00:01:42.120 --> 00:01:45.400 Yeah, thank you very much, sir. And Lisa the occult 32 00:01:45.439 --> 00:01:47.159 rejectmated scientist. What is going on? 33 00:01:47.439 --> 00:01:50.599 How's it going? I'm very excited to be here. I 34 00:01:50.640 --> 00:01:52.640 finally get to be on the same screen as Broke 35 00:01:52.680 --> 00:01:54.959 and Gina. Because I heard the last one and it 36 00:01:55.000 --> 00:01:56.439 was a lot of fun. I kind of felt a 37 00:01:56.439 --> 00:02:01.159 little jelly because I was But anyway, I am excited 38 00:02:01.200 --> 00:02:04.480 to hear about this topic. And the only thing I 39 00:02:04.480 --> 00:02:07.079 want to plug is a cult research Institute dot org. 40 00:02:07.200 --> 00:02:09.719 A couple of our contributors, a couple of the Rejects 41 00:02:09.759 --> 00:02:12.280 contribute to the site, and so if you'd like to 42 00:02:12.319 --> 00:02:15.800 take your content in literary form, please check us out 43 00:02:15.840 --> 00:02:17.919 at a cult research Institute dot org. 44 00:02:18.560 --> 00:02:23.479 Yes, thank you very much. And Brooke, please let everybody 45 00:02:23.479 --> 00:02:24.960 know what your deal is and where they can find 46 00:02:24.960 --> 00:02:26.439 all your amazing work as well. 47 00:02:27.680 --> 00:02:27.879 Well. 48 00:02:27.919 --> 00:02:30.879 I'm also very excited to be here and share the 49 00:02:30.879 --> 00:02:34.039 stage with you guys tonight and hear more about your experiences. Gina, 50 00:02:34.080 --> 00:02:37.319 I'm really excited to dive into that. You can find 51 00:02:37.360 --> 00:02:40.840 me on Instagram at Dark Florida Podcast, I have a 52 00:02:40.879 --> 00:02:44.759 show we talk about all things crazy from Florida and beyond. 53 00:02:44.840 --> 00:02:46.360 So this is right up my alley. 54 00:02:47.960 --> 00:02:50.520 Thank you very much for joining us, Brooke, and last 55 00:02:50.520 --> 00:02:52.960 but not least, Jjvance, not the Vice President. 56 00:02:53.680 --> 00:02:56.840 Good evening, sir, Nick Greedy, Sir, appreciate the invite as 57 00:02:56.840 --> 00:03:01.000 always fellow fellow rejects. Always enjoy conversation with you all. 58 00:03:01.039 --> 00:03:03.759 So looking forward to it. And Gina, nice to meet you, ma'am. 59 00:03:04.159 --> 00:03:07.879 JJ Vance, host of Operation GCD and more notably not 60 00:03:08.280 --> 00:03:12.080 the Vice President. Got a Operation GCD lives on Wednesdays 61 00:03:12.240 --> 00:03:16.080 Fridays with Nick Well roundtable conspiracy culture discussion and then 62 00:03:16.680 --> 00:03:20.639 Operation GCD Sunday's Patreon where I tell tales of true 63 00:03:20.639 --> 00:03:24.000 crime and high weirdness that I've encountered in my adventures. 64 00:03:24.479 --> 00:03:25.919 Now looking forward to the conversation. 65 00:03:26.439 --> 00:03:29.280 Oh yeah, thank you very much, sir. And finally we 66 00:03:29.360 --> 00:03:31.840 got Gina Black the book that she has. I didn't 67 00:03:31.840 --> 00:03:33.719 plug the name of that yet. It is etched in 68 00:03:33.879 --> 00:03:37.879 Stone and in his decoding Hidden Meetings and Cemeteries, which 69 00:03:37.919 --> 00:03:39.919 now people may understand why I liked it so much. 70 00:03:39.960 --> 00:03:43.400 I'm really huge into architecture, and who doesn't like graveyards 71 00:03:43.400 --> 00:03:46.960 and senies. So I mean, for me as an occultist, 72 00:03:47.080 --> 00:03:49.360 how I look at a lot of art and architecture 73 00:03:49.360 --> 00:03:52.240 and just you know, stuff like that, sculptures. I think 74 00:03:52.280 --> 00:03:55.639 there's a lot of like she's saying, hidden meeting, hidden meaning. 75 00:03:56.000 --> 00:03:58.919 So I was very very happy to you know, get 76 00:03:58.960 --> 00:04:00.680 her on and to talk about this, and she gave 77 00:04:00.719 --> 00:04:01.879 me the book. So that's awesome. 78 00:04:02.199 --> 00:04:04.439 Gina, thank you so much for coming on. That is 79 00:04:04.479 --> 00:04:04.919 what's up? 80 00:04:04.960 --> 00:04:06.800 Can you please let everybody know what your deal is 81 00:04:06.800 --> 00:04:08.400 and where they can find all your amazing stuff. 82 00:04:09.199 --> 00:04:13.000 Yes, Hi, my name is Gina, and I recently wrote 83 00:04:13.159 --> 00:04:14.680 the book that we're talking about tonight. 84 00:04:14.759 --> 00:04:16.319 Thank you so much for having me, and I'm so 85 00:04:16.360 --> 00:04:17.839 happy to be here with all of you guys. 86 00:04:18.560 --> 00:04:22.879 And so I am a paranormal investigator, photographer, and author 87 00:04:23.240 --> 00:04:27.079 living in South Florida. I am close to Fort Lauderdale, 88 00:04:27.079 --> 00:04:31.959 Miami area, and in addition to the book about cemeteries, 89 00:04:32.000 --> 00:04:35.000 I'm also an investigator. I co founded a Paranormal team, 90 00:04:35.560 --> 00:04:41.639 and I enjoy experimenting and also helping some local locations 91 00:04:41.680 --> 00:04:44.959 close to where I live, as far as fundraising and 92 00:04:45.000 --> 00:04:47.920 getting people in to learn about the paranormal by investigating 93 00:04:48.120 --> 00:04:49.000 through fundraisers. 94 00:04:49.040 --> 00:04:51.279 So I love all things spooky. 95 00:04:51.480 --> 00:04:54.839 I love a good mystery, which is why I got 96 00:04:54.879 --> 00:04:57.399 into this, the whole topic of writing this book, and 97 00:04:57.439 --> 00:04:59.519 I'm just really excited to talk about it with you guys. 98 00:04:59.600 --> 00:05:05.160 Thank you having me no, thank you very much. I 99 00:05:05.199 --> 00:05:07.680 know you probably got into this in the first episode, 100 00:05:08.600 --> 00:05:10.680 but unfortunately we're going to go back to it again. 101 00:05:11.839 --> 00:05:15.519 I guess what was it that made you write this book, 102 00:05:15.839 --> 00:05:18.040 besides the fact that you love, you know, graveyards of semitories. 103 00:05:19.439 --> 00:05:22.439 Well, you know, it started around the pandemic when I 104 00:05:22.639 --> 00:05:24.720 was kind of, you know, along with everybody else, you know, 105 00:05:24.720 --> 00:05:27.399 going through the isolation of all of that, and feeling 106 00:05:27.480 --> 00:05:29.680 a little cooped up and a little in need of 107 00:05:29.720 --> 00:05:33.120 a project. And I decided, you know, to take out 108 00:05:33.160 --> 00:05:36.279 my nikon and I was just taking photos for fun, 109 00:05:36.279 --> 00:05:38.000 and I decided, you know, I'll go to a cemetery 110 00:05:38.040 --> 00:05:39.959 that's a quie, a place that I can kind of 111 00:05:39.959 --> 00:05:42.920 be on my own and still have some space to 112 00:05:42.959 --> 00:05:47.439 be creative, so I started taking pictures and I started 113 00:05:47.480 --> 00:05:50.639 noticing more and more on the headstones in this particular 114 00:05:50.879 --> 00:05:52.160 historical cemetery that there was. 115 00:05:52.160 --> 00:05:53.720 A lot of repetitive art. 116 00:05:54.240 --> 00:05:57.199 And as somebody who I have an art background and 117 00:05:57.279 --> 00:05:59.160 photography is just one of the things I do in 118 00:05:59.199 --> 00:06:02.199 the art field, I really started looking into it more 119 00:06:02.240 --> 00:06:05.360 and more, and hence that's how I kind of found 120 00:06:05.399 --> 00:06:10.120 myself down the rabbit hole with cemeteries and the beautiful 121 00:06:10.199 --> 00:06:11.759 artwork that is inside of them. 122 00:06:12.160 --> 00:06:13.199 And I know I. 123 00:06:13.120 --> 00:06:15.319 Would I travel a lot, so I started to go 124 00:06:15.399 --> 00:06:19.560 on tours, historical tours. I started talking to people, and 125 00:06:19.800 --> 00:06:21.920 it's one of those topics that if you find yourself 126 00:06:21.920 --> 00:06:23.720 in a cemetery and you happen to come across somebody 127 00:06:23.759 --> 00:06:26.759 who's a volunteer there or someone who's a docent, or 128 00:06:26.800 --> 00:06:29.240 someone who whatever the story is, why they're there, a 129 00:06:29.240 --> 00:06:31.439 lot of times people are very passionate about sharing the 130 00:06:31.519 --> 00:06:33.959 history and the stories with you. So that's kind of 131 00:06:33.959 --> 00:06:37.879 how I started learning more and more of the hidden meetings, 132 00:06:38.040 --> 00:06:41.759 and I began talking about it on Instagram and TikTok, 133 00:06:42.399 --> 00:06:43.879 and I really didn't think it was going to get 134 00:06:43.959 --> 00:06:46.360 much of a response. At all because I figured, okay, 135 00:06:46.360 --> 00:06:48.759 if you fellow weirdos might enjoy this topic. 136 00:06:48.879 --> 00:06:52.319 But lo and behold, it kind of launched my page. 137 00:06:52.399 --> 00:06:54.639 I really started getting a lot of followers after I 138 00:06:54.639 --> 00:06:57.120 started talking about this, So it was a pretty neat 139 00:06:57.199 --> 00:06:59.279 experience to kind of make that connection with a lot 140 00:06:59.319 --> 00:06:59.680 of people. 141 00:07:00.879 --> 00:07:04.160 That is great. Uh, you know, it was interesting around 142 00:07:04.199 --> 00:07:06.319 the time I think I had, you know, came across 143 00:07:06.319 --> 00:07:09.360 your work. I you know, I had been filming it. 144 00:07:09.800 --> 00:07:11.680 I had went to Yale a few times and filmed, 145 00:07:12.519 --> 00:07:14.519 and I did the cemetery over there. I can't remember 146 00:07:14.519 --> 00:07:16.040 the name of the cemetery, New Haven, I think it 147 00:07:16.160 --> 00:07:16.720 is or whatever. 148 00:07:17.439 --> 00:07:19.759 And then like I had, uh, for. 149 00:07:19.680 --> 00:07:21.920 Some reason, just thought about going to like the cemetery 150 00:07:21.959 --> 00:07:24.319 at Huntington, Oh Bay where I was. I knew there 151 00:07:24.360 --> 00:07:27.800 was some like old old people there, and that's when 152 00:07:27.839 --> 00:07:29.839 I had started noticing, I'm like, wait, I still like 153 00:07:29.920 --> 00:07:33.240 that same artwork and design on a different tombstone over 154 00:07:33.279 --> 00:07:35.680 and yell. And then I sort of realizing, I'm like, oh, 155 00:07:35.680 --> 00:07:37.120 I wonder what's like, what's up with that? I started 156 00:07:37.160 --> 00:07:39.560 thinking about it, and like literally not too long after that, 157 00:07:39.600 --> 00:07:41.519 it came across your account and That's why I was like, Yo, 158 00:07:41.600 --> 00:07:43.399 I was like, she's like looking at the same shit 159 00:07:43.439 --> 00:07:46.040 that I just started noticing myself. You know, she's going 160 00:07:46.040 --> 00:07:48.079 on about so I just thought it was perfect timing. 161 00:07:48.120 --> 00:07:51.920 But uh yeah, I again, like even even when I 162 00:07:51.920 --> 00:07:56.120 went to Yale, there were some really crazy, wild like 163 00:07:56.199 --> 00:08:00.360 headstones there that I just don't think it's our tick. 164 00:08:00.720 --> 00:08:02.839 Like I was just bored and just came up with this, 165 00:08:02.879 --> 00:08:04.879 and you know, this is this is a vision I 166 00:08:04.879 --> 00:08:06.879 had when I was sleeping a stone, Like, I don't 167 00:08:06.879 --> 00:08:07.240 buy that. 168 00:08:07.759 --> 00:08:10.040 You know, it's just it's very elaborate. 169 00:08:10.079 --> 00:08:13.319 But uh, I guess is there if somebody did ask 170 00:08:13.399 --> 00:08:15.680 in the chat, and I'm pretty sure that, I mean, 171 00:08:15.720 --> 00:08:17.759 it's probably multiple places. I don't think I just went 172 00:08:17.800 --> 00:08:20.079 to one place. Somebody's asking which city is represented in 173 00:08:20.120 --> 00:08:21.959 the book. I'm assuming you went to a bunch of 174 00:08:22.000 --> 00:08:23.399 different places. I don't know, if you want to get 175 00:08:23.399 --> 00:08:25.319 into that, places that you've been to, maybe where you 176 00:08:25.360 --> 00:08:27.160 started to notice that type. 177 00:08:26.920 --> 00:08:30.920 Of Absolutely, you know, just a couple of notable locations 178 00:08:30.959 --> 00:08:35.559 that you'll see photography my photography in the book. One 179 00:08:35.559 --> 00:08:37.960 of my favorites in Paris is Pierre la Chase, and 180 00:08:38.080 --> 00:08:41.519 that is one of the largest cemeteries and one of 181 00:08:41.600 --> 00:08:45.120 the most visited cemeteries in the world, and most notably 182 00:08:45.159 --> 00:08:47.080 a lot of people know it because it is the 183 00:08:47.159 --> 00:08:50.440 home of Jim Morrison's grave, and. 184 00:08:50.639 --> 00:08:51.679 That was one of my favorites. 185 00:08:51.919 --> 00:08:53.919 That's actually the cover of the book is one of 186 00:08:53.960 --> 00:08:56.159 the mausoleums from that from that cemetery. 187 00:08:56.519 --> 00:08:59.919 I also have been to most of the cemeteries in. 188 00:09:00.080 --> 00:09:04.080 Orleans, but the one that inspired me as far as 189 00:09:04.200 --> 00:09:07.399 the photography and kind of getting me into it, it 190 00:09:07.480 --> 00:09:12.840 was actually in Fort Lauderdale, and so that that would 191 00:09:12.840 --> 00:09:17.320 be the Greenwood Cemetery in Fort Lauderdale, and that one 192 00:09:17.480 --> 00:09:20.879 is home to Leslie Nielsen, which is a kind of 193 00:09:21.039 --> 00:09:23.039 I was looking up celebrities in my area and I 194 00:09:23.080 --> 00:09:25.559 found out he was there along with a couple of 195 00:09:25.600 --> 00:09:31.200 other local pioneer families. So that's the cemetery that really 196 00:09:31.320 --> 00:09:33.679 kind of got me into the photography end of it. 197 00:09:34.200 --> 00:09:36.440 I also really loved and you'll see a lot of 198 00:09:36.480 --> 00:09:38.679 my photography from Sleepy Hollow in New York. 199 00:09:39.320 --> 00:09:42.919 And another one that I talk a lot about is 200 00:09:44.320 --> 00:09:44.879 a few of the. 201 00:09:44.840 --> 00:09:50.840 London cemeteries, most notably the Highgate Cemetery and Brompton, So 202 00:09:50.919 --> 00:09:54.200 there's a bunch of different cemeteries from all over the 203 00:09:54.240 --> 00:09:56.279 world in the in the book. 204 00:09:56.799 --> 00:10:00.720 Now, did you notice, obviously, so you were one that 205 00:10:00.799 --> 00:10:03.559 you went out of the country, did you notice some 206 00:10:03.720 --> 00:10:05.320 things from there that you're like, oh, I noticed that 207 00:10:05.399 --> 00:10:07.679 same type of art from ones that you've seen here, 208 00:10:07.799 --> 00:10:09.120 or anything like that. 209 00:10:09.200 --> 00:10:10.399 Yeah, you know, I. 210 00:10:10.399 --> 00:10:13.080 Think in the UK we have a lot of parallels 211 00:10:13.360 --> 00:10:17.440 with our American cemeteries of the Victorian era, specifically from 212 00:10:17.480 --> 00:10:20.240 the UK to the US. But I think a lot 213 00:10:20.279 --> 00:10:22.759 of other countries will have their own flavor, if you will, 214 00:10:23.200 --> 00:10:26.919 And you know, I would say Greece when I was 215 00:10:26.960 --> 00:10:31.000 recently in Athens and the surrounds, there were some very notable, 216 00:10:31.159 --> 00:10:33.759 notable aspects to their cemeteries that we don't have here. 217 00:10:34.200 --> 00:10:36.759 And in Japan they look very different than what we 218 00:10:36.879 --> 00:10:40.399 have here. In Mexico, They're very different. So I think 219 00:10:40.519 --> 00:10:42.679 everybody kind of has their own spin on it. But 220 00:10:42.879 --> 00:10:46.240 there are some factors that we have in common, which is, 221 00:10:46.879 --> 00:10:49.799 you know, an interesting I think nod to humanity in general. 222 00:10:51.320 --> 00:10:55.799 Yeah, I had noticed there were certain like over in Yale, 223 00:10:55.799 --> 00:10:58.600 I noticed the same type of skull and design on 224 00:10:58.639 --> 00:11:00.919 the top of certain tombstones that are noticed in Huntington, 225 00:11:00.960 --> 00:11:02.200 and then when I sort of looking into it, I 226 00:11:02.200 --> 00:11:04.360 realized that that was kind of like specific to like German, 227 00:11:05.600 --> 00:11:06.840 So it was kind of like German. 228 00:11:08.480 --> 00:11:10.759 That is, and a lot of German immigrants in the 229 00:11:10.840 --> 00:11:11.559 United States. 230 00:11:11.600 --> 00:11:12.799 You'll see that in New England. 231 00:11:13.399 --> 00:11:16.480 And there was a shift between the time of the 232 00:11:16.600 --> 00:11:20.120 Puritans coming in and everybody, you know, as time went on. 233 00:11:20.480 --> 00:11:21.879 When they first arrived. 234 00:11:21.559 --> 00:11:25.000 You see a lot of very dark, very grim artwork 235 00:11:25.120 --> 00:11:26.080 on tombstone. 236 00:11:26.200 --> 00:11:28.600 You'll see the skull, You'll see the skull and crossbones. 237 00:11:28.679 --> 00:11:33.399 You'll see skulls with bat wings, and eventually they become softened, 238 00:11:33.480 --> 00:11:36.120 and you'll see a transition that happens where these same 239 00:11:36.159 --> 00:11:39.080 motifs get softer and softer, and instead of skulls, they 240 00:11:39.120 --> 00:11:41.440 turn into cherubs, and they'll turn into angels, and they'll 241 00:11:41.480 --> 00:11:46.320 turn into ladies' faces. So, because over time, death became 242 00:11:46.639 --> 00:11:49.279 not so much something that should be feared, but something 243 00:11:49.320 --> 00:11:52.679 that people wanted to celebrate and kind of look more 244 00:11:52.879 --> 00:11:57.720 upon in a romanticized way. So this shift is pretty interesting. 245 00:11:57.840 --> 00:12:00.960 But yes, a lot of the European influences can be 246 00:12:01.000 --> 00:12:04.360 seen specifically in New England. 247 00:12:05.039 --> 00:12:05.399 Thank you. 248 00:12:05.919 --> 00:12:09.559 Uh. One thing I wanted to get into like I know, uh, 249 00:12:10.879 --> 00:12:11.519 I really don't know. 250 00:12:11.440 --> 00:12:14.159 Where to start. I mean it was like like maybe 251 00:12:14.159 --> 00:12:16.039 I shoul look at the questions I was Tony, I 252 00:12:16.080 --> 00:12:18.320 was going to ask you about one thing I thought 253 00:12:18.399 --> 00:12:21.759 was interesting was the whole thing with the gates. I 254 00:12:21.799 --> 00:12:24.080 never had realized, like you know, you had said, I 255 00:12:24.120 --> 00:12:26.360 think the whole cemetery gate thing kind of came from 256 00:12:26.399 --> 00:12:27.879 like a Turkish Turkey. 257 00:12:29.000 --> 00:12:30.919 Yes, so I like to the way I sort of 258 00:12:31.720 --> 00:12:34.519 targeted the symbolism in the book is I wanted to 259 00:12:34.559 --> 00:12:38.759 find the origin, the beginning of the symbol. And if 260 00:12:38.759 --> 00:12:44.159 you look back through history, the first, the oldest sources 261 00:12:44.200 --> 00:12:48.200 of iron gates actually came from the area of Turkey, 262 00:12:48.600 --> 00:12:51.440 and it was the Hittites people and they built them 263 00:12:51.519 --> 00:12:54.840 around the perimeter of their of their kingdom, you know, 264 00:12:54.879 --> 00:12:59.559 their their villages, and eventually that design made its way 265 00:12:59.559 --> 00:13:03.159 around Europe and it became very popular during the Middle Ages. 266 00:13:03.799 --> 00:13:07.559 But when it came to cemeteries, you know a lot 267 00:13:07.559 --> 00:13:10.879 of Victorians were looking at things like castles and they 268 00:13:10.919 --> 00:13:16.639 were looking for just ornate elements to beautify these locations, 269 00:13:16.679 --> 00:13:21.279 and that's where we see the quintessential cemetery gates coming 270 00:13:21.279 --> 00:13:24.720 into play that we know and love, and they were 271 00:13:24.960 --> 00:13:26.519 a lot of people know them as the purpose of 272 00:13:26.600 --> 00:13:29.080 keeping people out. They were a very strong material that 273 00:13:29.200 --> 00:13:31.279 was hard to you know, you couldn't really bend your 274 00:13:31.320 --> 00:13:34.320 way through them. They were also kind of put in 275 00:13:34.360 --> 00:13:37.720 place to keep out animals and scavengers and people that 276 00:13:37.759 --> 00:13:41.759 were interested in grave robbing. But the Victorian reason for 277 00:13:41.960 --> 00:13:45.399 using them specifically for cemeteries is actually a superstitious one, 278 00:13:45.399 --> 00:13:48.000 and that is that a lot of people thought that 279 00:13:48.440 --> 00:13:52.360 iron was a material that could keep out witches, fairies, 280 00:13:52.399 --> 00:13:53.279 and spirits. 281 00:13:53.440 --> 00:13:55.240 So by putting. 282 00:13:55.080 --> 00:13:58.600 Iron gates around the entire property, you were preventing spirits 283 00:13:58.639 --> 00:14:01.840 from following you home. If you go inside the cemetery 284 00:14:01.840 --> 00:14:04.399 and then you see a family plot that's also surrounded 285 00:14:04.440 --> 00:14:07.080 with iron and a little door that was something that 286 00:14:07.120 --> 00:14:09.279 you had to keep shut when you walked in and 287 00:14:09.320 --> 00:14:12.440 you visited your family members and you mourned when you left, 288 00:14:12.480 --> 00:14:15.600 you closed the gate, and it was considered bad luck 289 00:14:15.840 --> 00:14:17.960 for anybody to keep the gates open because they were 290 00:14:18.000 --> 00:14:21.039 concerned with these energies following them home. 291 00:14:21.519 --> 00:14:24.759 So it was a superstitious factor as well. 292 00:14:25.399 --> 00:14:27.240 Yeah, No, I thought that was really interesting, And how 293 00:14:28.360 --> 00:14:30.519 would you say the word was again too, it goes 294 00:14:30.559 --> 00:14:33.919 back like I think goes back to like the word 295 00:14:34.039 --> 00:14:35.320 I forgot how what word. 296 00:14:35.120 --> 00:14:36.559 It was, like Biton. 297 00:14:37.759 --> 00:14:41.440 Written, Yeah, it's it's that's the original word. 298 00:14:42.000 --> 00:14:42.840 It's like mouldable. 299 00:14:42.919 --> 00:14:44.879 It means like pliable something like that. 300 00:14:44.919 --> 00:14:47.960 You said viable. Yeah, so you can bend it. 301 00:14:48.000 --> 00:14:49.919 You bend it with fire and you can you can 302 00:14:49.919 --> 00:14:53.240 mold the design. So it was I think it was 303 00:14:53.279 --> 00:14:56.480 something that really was awe inspiring during that time because 304 00:14:56.480 --> 00:15:00.200 everybody was working with with stones and with you know, 305 00:15:00.240 --> 00:15:02.080 things along that, and that was something very different and 306 00:15:02.159 --> 00:15:04.320 had a really unique look to it, and it was 307 00:15:04.320 --> 00:15:09.720 something that could be artistically adjusted for each you know, 308 00:15:10.159 --> 00:15:12.639 culture that was using it. So it was I'm not 309 00:15:12.720 --> 00:15:14.440 surprised why it took off as much as it did, 310 00:15:14.519 --> 00:15:17.200 and it was a material that people did have access 311 00:15:17.240 --> 00:15:20.519 to today. 312 00:15:20.519 --> 00:15:22.240 You probably want to ask anything before I keep going 313 00:15:22.639 --> 00:15:25.000 steel bead that I'm going to keep asking questions. 314 00:15:25.080 --> 00:15:27.559 I was going to ask if, and maybe you're going 315 00:15:27.600 --> 00:15:30.279 to get into this later, if you saw like a 316 00:15:30.320 --> 00:15:34.440 progression from the years like centuries or whatever, like the 317 00:15:34.519 --> 00:15:37.080 eighteen hundreds, whatever, whatever, and then now the nineteen hundred, 318 00:15:37.080 --> 00:15:41.720 did you see a progression of symbolism or even material 319 00:15:41.879 --> 00:15:43.799 used as a headstone itself. 320 00:15:44.399 --> 00:15:45.840 Yes, that's a really good question. 321 00:15:46.120 --> 00:15:50.840 So I think that marble has always been something that 322 00:15:50.919 --> 00:15:55.039 has been used in the wealthy and the elite classes. 323 00:15:55.320 --> 00:15:57.159 That was something a little bit more expensive back then, 324 00:15:57.159 --> 00:15:59.879 and it's still something that's more expensive now. It is 325 00:16:00.240 --> 00:16:02.679 beautiful and it doesn't get as dirty looking, it doesn't 326 00:16:02.720 --> 00:16:08.519 need quite as much attention and maintenance. So that's that's 327 00:16:08.519 --> 00:16:11.080 a material that has kind of withstand, you know, the 328 00:16:12.080 --> 00:16:16.240 test of time. But you know, as far as the 329 00:16:16.320 --> 00:16:21.840 designs go themselves, I think modern day headstones and monuments 330 00:16:21.919 --> 00:16:24.480 are becoming less and less ornate in nature. 331 00:16:24.559 --> 00:16:25.399 We're seeing more of. 332 00:16:25.360 --> 00:16:30.759 The flat style plaques and we're seeing very simple headstones. 333 00:16:30.799 --> 00:16:32.320 And I think a lot of that is because the 334 00:16:32.360 --> 00:16:36.080 death industry has gone so expensive that so many people, 335 00:16:36.120 --> 00:16:38.480 you know, I know, at least myself, having Facebook and 336 00:16:38.519 --> 00:16:43.480 other you know, social media apps. If somebody passes away suddenly, 337 00:16:43.480 --> 00:16:45.679 a lot of times you see GoFundMe because maybe a 338 00:16:45.720 --> 00:16:49.879 family cannot afford the cost of a funeral, or it 339 00:16:49.919 --> 00:16:52.200 was such a sudden thing that maybe didn't plan for it. 340 00:16:52.679 --> 00:16:55.559 And I think that the death industry has gotten so 341 00:16:55.639 --> 00:16:58.679 expensive for the average person that nobody really has the 342 00:16:58.720 --> 00:17:00.960 money to spend on these ornis designs anymore. And it's 343 00:17:01.039 --> 00:17:03.480 kind of unfortunate because you know, when you walk into 344 00:17:03.519 --> 00:17:06.480 an older cemetery, you see that character, that personality that 345 00:17:06.960 --> 00:17:10.400 you know, that interesting footnote that's left from time, and 346 00:17:10.480 --> 00:17:13.480 now it's becoming more and more, I would. 347 00:17:13.359 --> 00:17:15.160 Say, not as unique. 348 00:17:15.759 --> 00:17:18.559 So that's really the most the trends that I've seen, 349 00:17:18.599 --> 00:17:21.480 and that really is something that I think, as. 350 00:17:21.440 --> 00:17:24.000 Far as time wise goes, maybe. 351 00:17:23.680 --> 00:17:27.480 After the nineteen fifties the nineteen sixties, just from the 352 00:17:27.599 --> 00:17:30.279 cemeteries I've seen, there is a little bit of decline 353 00:17:30.400 --> 00:17:33.359 in the artistic designs of the headstones. 354 00:17:36.960 --> 00:17:39.400 I think he nailed it with the industry that it 355 00:17:39.480 --> 00:17:42.400 seems like there's probably more emphasis or more money being 356 00:17:42.440 --> 00:17:44.960 spent on the casket and the service and then come 357 00:17:45.000 --> 00:17:48.200 the headstone. It's not really as much. But yeah, I 358 00:17:48.200 --> 00:17:49.079 would agree with that. 359 00:17:50.839 --> 00:17:52.160 Brook you want it as something great. 360 00:17:54.000 --> 00:17:56.720 I did. Do you go into the symbolism that you 361 00:17:56.799 --> 00:18:00.559 discussed in your book with the skull and the wings 362 00:18:00.839 --> 00:18:02.960 or do you have any section on symbolism in there? 363 00:18:03.640 --> 00:18:05.440 Yes, I do talk about it. 364 00:18:05.519 --> 00:18:08.440 Now as far as the sections of the book are 365 00:18:08.519 --> 00:18:10.400 kind of broken down. I tried to kind of you know, 366 00:18:10.480 --> 00:18:12.960 lump them together as best I could, But there is 367 00:18:13.000 --> 00:18:14.920 a section on light and dark where you can see 368 00:18:14.920 --> 00:18:19.000 the progressions from the more I would say, the more macabre, 369 00:18:19.079 --> 00:18:21.759 the darker styles, and how they progress into a little 370 00:18:21.759 --> 00:18:24.880 bit more of a softer edge and why, you know, 371 00:18:25.039 --> 00:18:27.440 I explained all the different things, and it's a little 372 00:18:27.480 --> 00:18:30.000 it's it's mostly about a shift in society where we 373 00:18:30.079 --> 00:18:35.359 went from the god fearing Puritans and the Pilgrims, and 374 00:18:35.400 --> 00:18:37.839 they basically there was. 375 00:18:38.559 --> 00:18:40.279 Just you know, you had to. 376 00:18:40.359 --> 00:18:42.640 Live under God's roof, and you know, if you did 377 00:18:42.640 --> 00:18:44.759 not follow God's way, you were going to die. And 378 00:18:44.799 --> 00:18:47.839 this was the you know, the fear that was imposed 379 00:18:47.880 --> 00:18:51.000 on everyone. But slowly over time, and especially once you 380 00:18:51.039 --> 00:18:54.039 get into the eighteen hundreds, and I would say, in 381 00:18:54.079 --> 00:18:57.480 its peak the Victorian era, which is the mid eighteen 382 00:18:57.559 --> 00:19:01.480 hundreds to the early nineteen hundreds, there's much more of 383 00:19:01.519 --> 00:19:04.680 a shift in romanticism. You know, people are reading, there's 384 00:19:04.720 --> 00:19:08.079 more education going on, and also there was a lot 385 00:19:08.119 --> 00:19:10.759 of death and people had to deal with that mentally. 386 00:19:11.400 --> 00:19:14.759 So you know, if your husband went out to war 387 00:19:15.240 --> 00:19:18.680 and your child got you know, yellow fever, and your 388 00:19:18.680 --> 00:19:22.160 other child is suffering with you know, tuberculosis, all of 389 00:19:22.200 --> 00:19:24.400 these things, and then you had to bury your family. 390 00:19:25.119 --> 00:19:29.160 They had to put some sort of beautification into that 391 00:19:29.240 --> 00:19:32.599 situation so that it wouldn't feel like they had nothing 392 00:19:32.640 --> 00:19:35.880 to live for. And I think that all of those 393 00:19:35.880 --> 00:19:39.640 factors really contribute to that shift from the skulls and 394 00:19:39.640 --> 00:19:43.839 the bat wings into more of the angels and the 395 00:19:43.880 --> 00:19:47.599 flowers and things like that. And instead of where you 396 00:19:47.640 --> 00:19:49.960 would see maybe you know, in the seventeen hundreds, you 397 00:19:49.960 --> 00:19:52.440 would see more of that the skull no matter what. 398 00:19:52.400 --> 00:19:55.400 The age of the person who was buried there. 399 00:19:55.839 --> 00:19:59.000 You know, you will see lambs for babies, You'll see 400 00:19:59.160 --> 00:20:03.000 more flowers for the females, and I think that was 401 00:20:03.319 --> 00:20:06.759