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Speaker 2: Hello friends, and welcome back to the rabbit Hole. I'm

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your host, Danny, and today we are discussing the assassination

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of Robert Kennedy, brother to presid Sident John Kennedy. He

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was a US Senator and candidate in the nineteen sixty

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eight Democratic Party presidential primaries. On June fifth, nineteen sixty eight,

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RFK was shot by Saran Saran at the Ambassador Hotel

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in Los Angeles, California, or that's the story they want

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you to believe. Mark Shaw is a former criminal defense

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attorney and TV network trial analyst. A noted historian and

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investigative reporter, he has published more than thirty books. Today,

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Mark will explain why Sarn was not the killer, who

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he has found to be the most likely killer, and

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why it's not the CIA. All of this can also

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be found in his book Abuse of Power. Hi, Mark,

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thank you so much for coming on the podcast. I'm

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really excited to learn more about Kennedy's assassin or Robert

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Kennedy's asassination, because I've done a deep dive into John Kennedy,

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but not his brother.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, and that's interesting because Danielle, I never expected to

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write this book.

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Speaker 2: I was going to ask, like, what led you here?

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Speaker 3: Yeah, you know, I think you saw the array of

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my books that touch on the JFK assassination, Dorothy Kilgallon's

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all of that, and after the last one, you know,

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I kind of it helps a little bit to put

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some of this in context, if I may. I started

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in by writing a book about Melvin bell I, who

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was Jack Ruby's lawyer. I practiced law with him in

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the nineteen eighties, and I knew him very well, and

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I knew about his affiliations with the mafia. So I

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wrote called Melvin Belly King of the Courtroom, and then

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I was done. But then I learned that he was

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involved with Mickey Cohen, who was a gangster at the time,

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and that the bell I may have known about the

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assassination before it happened. So that's one of the things

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that kind of made me go forward. Also, then I

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looked into the nineteen sixty election. You're way too young

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to remember, but Joe Kennedy had the idea that you know,

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he wanted to be president of the United States, and unfortunately,

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when he was ambassador a Great Great Britain during that term,

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he became friends, unfortunately with Adolf Hitler, and that really

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ruined his reputation. When he came back to the United States,

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he knew he couldn't become president, so he decided Joe

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Kennedy Junior will be president, although he died then in

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the war. Then Jack, then Bobby, and then Ted. He

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saw a real dynasty of Kennedy's in the White.

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Speaker 2: House, so he wanted them all to be president.

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Speaker 3: Absolutely, Okay, absolutely, So I looked at the sixty election,

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and Joe knew they were going to lose because Richard

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Nixon was ahead and so on and so forth. So

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Joe incorporated some of the people he knew from his

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bootleging days, including Carlos Marcello, Troffacante, all the bad guys,

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and they helped him win the elections in West Virginia

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and in Illinois. Deil was you'll help us win, We'll

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leave you alone when we get in the White House.

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Speaker 2: Yeah.

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Speaker 3: Well that didn't happen because Bobby Kennedy, and a lot

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of that comes from this book right here, which changed

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everything about what happened to the subjects of my research

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in the past. It was called enemy it was called

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the enemy within by Bobby Kennedy. And you can just

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get an idea of what the let the mafioso must

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have thought when they read that. He wrote, they are sleek,

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often billious, and fat or lean and cold and hard.

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They have smooth, smooth faces and cruel eyes of gangsters.

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They wear the same rich clothes, the diamond ring, the

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jeweled watch, and get this one, the strong, sickly sweet

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smelling perfume. Bobby Kennedy went after these guys because of

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what had happened at racketeering hearings before JFK became president.

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Those racketeers, those mafioso took the Fifth Amendment, and so

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on and so forth. And Bobby Kennedy then just dedicate

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was going to dedicate himself to erasing them from the

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face of the earth.

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Speaker 2: Did he know about his dad's connection with the mafia

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at that point?

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Speaker 3: What's that?

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Speaker 2: Did Bobby Kennedy know about his dad's connections with the mafia?

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Speaker 3: Excellent question? Absolutely? Okay, absolutely, And he knew about the

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fixed election in sixty So now we turned to nineteen

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sixty one when they're in office, and the first thing

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that Bobby Kennedy does is something that just amazing that

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he tried to do it, but he went ahead and

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he deported this Carlos Marcelo, who was a probably the

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most dangerous mafioso in the country at that time, New

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Orleans and everything. We'll get into that, but he deported

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him to Central America. He tricked him into going to

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an immigration office in New Orleans, and he sent him

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to Central America where Marcella almost died. Wow. So I

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took that information and then I started looking into Marcello's

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possible participation in JFK's death at that time. And the

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real key was my finding out about a woman named

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Dorothy Kilgallon, a famous journalist at the time. A lot

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of people don't know too much about her, and I

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didn't at the time. She was a college dropout. I

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think you'll be impressed if you don't know already that

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she had to overcome gender discrimination, sexual discrimination. When she

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became a reporter. They wouldn't let her handle many of

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the important cases at the time.

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Speaker 2: I believe it, and so you know, she.

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Speaker 3: Had to battle her way into getting noticed and so

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on and so forth. She was a newspaper woman who

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was syndicated to two hundred newspapers across the country. She

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had a radio show listened to by a million people

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and many people. Again you're probably too young to remember,

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but the big show she was on was What's My Line,

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which was a quiz show CBS had every Sunday night

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at ten o'clock live. Dorothy was the star performer. They

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guessed unusual occupations for people and things like that. So

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she was the real deal. And when before JFK died,

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she had become very good friends with him. He had

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come to her home on East sixty eighth Street, played charades.

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They saw each other socially. Jackie Kennedy was there. I

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think Bobby Kennedy was even there. I mean, this was

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a big deal. Dorothy was the social light at that time,

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so she became friends with him to the point where

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at one point he invited her and her youngest son

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a carry to the White House Wow. And while we

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were there, JFK came into the library. He made a

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fuss over a Carrie, gave him a PT one nine

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pin and all that, and then praised him for the

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letters that he brought from his third grade class. In fact,

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when JFK dies, the first column that Dorothy writes is

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has contains this language. What I remember is is a

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tall man stooping over a little boy, praising him for

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the letters he brought from third grade class. This is

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the man who was assassinated in Dallas. So Dorothy made

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this personal, and she went to Dallas, and she interviewed

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first of all the Dallas police chief and his will

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all come back to for us to talk about Bobby Kennedy.

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But his book I found, which is a very rare

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book in some archives, and it is his story. And

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she found out right away from Jesse Curry. He said

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to her the shots came from the front, not from

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the back. They came from the overpass or the Grassy Knole,

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and so she knew that. She then interviewed a detective

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who knew who was with Jack Ruby when he was

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arrested and found out that Ruby was very calm after

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I'm sorry. Ruby was very nervous after he shot Oswald,

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but then when he found out Oswald was dead, he

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was very calm. And that will come back for our

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talks when we lead into Sir Hans, Sir Han and

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Robert Kennedy's death. So she found out all of this.

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She did her research and the very first column that

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she wrote was called the Oswald Alone Must Not File.

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She was on the job, she was in Dallas. She

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went to the Jack Ruby trial. There is a photograph

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at the Excuse Me at the Dorothy kilgallonstory dot Org.

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That's in the book. She's standing in the middle of

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the courtroom at the doctor Sam Shephard case which became

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the Fugitive movie, and all the other reporters are around

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her looking at her in admiration because she had to

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trust she was a woman of the truth. And I

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would say, just a little research I've done about you,

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you're like that, you know where you're always looking for

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the truth. No, I mean that, and I admire that.

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So she wrote the Oswald file must not close about

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Oswald because she didn't believe about the Oswald doing it,

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you know, him being the lone gunman. And she wrote

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in there, they've killed the president. The government is not

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prepared to tell us the truth, and I'm going to

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do everything in my power to find out what happened.

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Speaker 2: Oh man. And they did not want that to happen,

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not at all. I was going to ask you about it, Dorothy,

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because I didn't. I didn't know her story at all.

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So I'm glad that you're getting into this.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, And she just put a target on her back

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at you know, obviously there because you've got powerful men

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like Jay Edgar Hoover shouting out Oswald alone, this mafioso,

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Carlos Marcelo, who had we'll go back to that for

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a minute. Nineteen sixty one comes around, and then we'll

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get to nineteen sixty three and Carlos Marcelo has been

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deported to Central America. He comes back in the United

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States as a famous author told me that the Sicilian's

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middle name is revenge, and when he got back, he

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wanted to kill the sob as he put it Robert Kennedy,

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but he knew if he did that, JFK and the

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government would come after everything, come after him with everything

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they had. So he set it up to orchestrate the

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death of JFK in Dallas. And you say, you've already

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looked into all of that. So he did that, and

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that eliminated JFK. So Bobby Kennedy would be powerless, all right,

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And that was the effect of him doing that. And

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you'll find out now that I put in this book.

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Nobody I don't think has ever put in context the

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death of JFK in sixty well, actually Marilyn Monroe in

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sixty one or sixty two, but JFK in sixty three,

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Dorothyan sixty five, and Robert Kennedy in nineteen sixty eight.

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So you can see the parallels between how these death

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occurred and using, in my opinion, in my research, these

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patsys that come along Oswald, first Ruby and so on and

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so forth.

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Speaker 2: So do you think the Kennedy has killed Marilyn Monroe?

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Speaker 3: Do you want to stop there? We certainly can't get

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into that.

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Speaker 2: I just I thought i'd asked the questions since we've forgot.

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Speaker 3: No that's just fine. So let's let's go there, because

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it's Bobby Kennedy all over again. Yeah, Merril Monroe was

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Dorothy kill Gallan's involved in this, okay, because she and

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Marylyn were very good friends. And the day that Marylyn died,

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Dorothy kill Gallen wrote an article that said, Marilyn Monroe

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is on the upswing. She's got Broadway offers, movie offers,

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and she's about to She's involved in a romantic relationship

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with someone whose name is stronger than Joe DiMaggio, who

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was the great baseball player she had been married to, right,

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and so she wrote that about Marylyn, believing that Marylyn

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was doing just fine. She had also mentioned that Marylyn

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had just moved into a house she had always wanted.

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You know, she had a tough time growing up. She

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had a tough time with the men in Hollywood trying

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to use her and all that. She finally became a

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star and was able to go ahead and buy this

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home in Brentwood, California, near Ucla, And so Dorothy said,

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you know, she had everything to live for. That same day,

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the headlines across the world were Merrilyn Monroe commits suicide

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and Dorothy did not believe that at all. So I

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started looking into that for a book called Collateral Damage

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by Connecting the connecting Bobby Kennedy, Dorothy Kilgallan, and Marilyn Monroe.

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And what I was able to find out was, and

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a lot of this, I know you're you're interested in

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conspiracies where unfortunately distortions of history occur. I think the

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Good Lord put me on the earth to find these

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distortions and try to eliminate them. And one of them

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was all about Dorothy or Maryland before and this and

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that up in Lake Tahoe and the mobsters were up

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there and everything else like that. But the real facts

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were that that Maryland had made a big mistake. She

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had told the Kennedys that she was going to the

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media and she was going to talk about the the

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COLO talk secrets whatever they mean, including matters of national security,

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including you probably know that JFK was looking to assassinate,

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have Fidel Castro assassinated. Well, you can't do that with

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these kind of powerful men that he used, that abused

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power and all of that, and so Marilyn then and

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I've been able to show in my book exactly what happened.

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I've put Bobby Kennedy in Los Angeles, although he said

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he was in San Francisco. I put him in Los

246
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Angeles at the twentieth century Fox Heliport where he landed.

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I put him in a car where a policeman in

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Beverly Hills stopped him for going too quickly. He and

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the chauffeur and all of that. And then what I've

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been able to show, it's the first time I think

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in calladal damage and now more about it in this

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book is how Bobby Kennedy, who went to her home

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allegedly and I think he probably did that day and

254
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tried to talk her out of going to the media.

255
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They could not let her go to the media. Just

256
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couldn't happen. And so he went to the home. He

257
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tried to talk about it, she wouldn't listen. And then

258
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I found I'm very proud of the fact that I

259
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find these witnesses that nobody else does, because it makes

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an awful lot of difference. Yeah, and I hear from

261
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people all around the world. There's almost fifteen million views

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of my presentation about all my books the last four

263
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especially on YouTube, and I hear from people. Then who've

264
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watched those, and we'll talk about a couple of them

265
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in depth. But this woman, a nurse in Boston, got

266
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in touch with me. She knew the Kennedy family. She

267
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had gone skiing with them. She knew JFK, Ted and

268
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Bobby and all of them, and she sold some and

269
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even Joe, and she told some kind of sorid stories

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about them. You know, the Kennedys were good, bad, and ugly.

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In my opinion. They did some good things. Bobby did

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some good things with civil rights. JFK I think was

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going to get this out of Vietnam and things like that.

274
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But they also I mean, she tells the story of

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the Kennedy of going to a restaurant where the Kennedy

276
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family was several times and the waitresses would bring the

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bill and they would just leave without even paying it.

278
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And these are millionaires. Yeah, so it's a small point,

279
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but kind of indicative of the arrogance that they had.

280
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So I found this nurse and she told me that

281
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she knew the two people who were involved in Dorothy

282
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in Marilyn Monroe's death. They were two thugs around the

283
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Boston area. In fact, they had gone ahead and eliminated

284
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this nurse's grandfather because he had crossed them up, and

285
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so on and so forth, and she was able to

286
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say that they visited her home and they started talking

287
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about exactly what happened with Maryland on the night she died.

288
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That they were there and they the door or the

289
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window was left open they could get in there. And

290
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I don't want to get into two of exactly how

291
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they killed her, but it had to do with ingesting

292
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barbituates into her system. And that's how Marilyn Monroe died. Now,

293
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there's been all this conjecture about everything else involved in

294
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all of that, but I think this nurse was very

295
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credible because one thing she said is Mark, all you

296
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have to do is look at the face of Marilyn

297
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Monroe when she died. It's kind of a grovelly gray,

298
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and if you look at it, it is she said,

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that's the indication of what I'm telling you about how

300
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they ingested these barbituates into her system. So I believe

301
00:17:37,799 --> 00:17:41,839
that's what happened to Marilyn Monroe. I'm a former criminal

302
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defense lawyer, as you know, so I look at MODI

303
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with all of these these cases. But as I did

304
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when I was a defense lawyer. In fact, I've never

305
00:17:49,799 --> 00:17:53,519
had any training with actual writing skills. Maybe that would

306
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have been a good idea, But I talked to the

307
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reader like I talked to jury's like a prosecutor. I

308
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know that way. So I put all that in a

309
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couple of the books and everything, and based on motive,

310
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Bobby Kennedy Jack too, but Bobby Kennedy. Jack Kenny had

311
00:18:11,000 --> 00:18:13,119
dumped her, as you know. But Bobby Kennedy had a

312
00:18:13,119 --> 00:18:15,680
torrid love affair with her. And in the book there

313
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is a CIA document that I have, you know, have

314
00:18:19,680 --> 00:18:25,000
corroborated through other evidence, and it talks about Bobby's toward

315
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love affair with Maryland to the point where Maryland thought

316
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that Bobby was going to leave Ethel and marry Maryland.

317
00:18:32,480 --> 00:18:35,079
Speaker 2: Oh wow. I knew that they had an affair. I

318
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knew that both both brothers had, but I didn't know

319
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that it was that intense.

320
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Speaker 3: So Bobby can't can't let Merilyn Monroe die, just as

321
00:18:44,319 --> 00:18:47,839
Carlos Marcelo is not going to let Bobby Kennedy become

322
00:18:47,880 --> 00:18:51,279
president in the United States in nineteen sixty eight. So

323
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that's the Maryland story. There's more to it. In the

324
00:18:53,599 --> 00:18:56,079
book readers to learn about that. But I've tried to

325
00:18:56,119 --> 00:19:00,039
really be careful with in my research direct evidence and

326
00:19:00,160 --> 00:19:04,359
speculate and so on and so forth, because I pride myself

327
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on doing that, just as I did when I was

328
00:19:06,319 --> 00:19:07,799
dealing with evidence in the courtroom.

329
00:19:07,960 --> 00:19:11,599
Speaker 2: Absolutely. Yeah, yeah, I thought that since we're talking about

330
00:19:11,640 --> 00:19:13,880
I might as well bring it up. But let's let's

331
00:19:13,880 --> 00:19:16,119
move on with the Dorothy Killigan story.

332
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Speaker 3: Okay, so it's actually to kill Gallan, but that was

333
00:19:19,160 --> 00:19:22,759
cloy don't worry about it, no problem. So Dorothy was

334
00:19:22,799 --> 00:19:26,799
on the job. Okay. After JFK died, she went to Dallas,

335
00:19:26,839 --> 00:19:30,559
she talked to Jesse Curry. She didn't believe the Oswald

336
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alone file. She came back and she wrote, I think

337
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there are sixteen columns that she wrote. They were not

338
00:19:37,000 --> 00:19:40,720
kind to those people who were shouting Oswald alone and

339
00:19:40,720 --> 00:19:45,359
then pulled something that really upset them. Because as I've

340
00:19:45,400 --> 00:19:48,440
proven the in the book, and readers will be interesting

341
00:19:48,480 --> 00:19:51,680
to know, this always happens, it seems like, and I

342
00:19:51,680 --> 00:19:54,160
hope it will happen with your viewers. When they see

343
00:19:54,200 --> 00:19:56,920
something in what I say, they will then get in

344
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touch with me. They'll go to markshawbooks dot com. They'll

345
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find email, and we've got about five thousand emails over

346
00:20:03,960 --> 00:20:07,240
the past few years from people all around the world,

347
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and they give me tips. So this one gentleman is

348
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watching a video presentation at at a library near Dallas,

349
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and he watches it and then he emails me and said, Mark,

350
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I need to talk to you because I knew Dorothy Kilgallen.

351
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Oh wow, Well that's a big deal because it's a

352
00:20:25,880 --> 00:20:27,839
long time ago and there aren't very many of those

353
00:20:27,920 --> 00:20:31,640
kinds of people. So he called me, and I couldn't believe.

354
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I couldn't write. I wish I could have recorded it,

355
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but I couldn't write fast enough because he told me Mark.

356
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My name is Morris Wolfe. I was an attorney in Washington,

357
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d C. I became involved working with Bobby Kennedy. In fact,

358
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I was there when Bobby Kennedy was in the Justice

359
00:20:49,279 --> 00:20:53,200
Department and JFK was president. In fact, they did not

360
00:20:53,359 --> 00:20:58,000
trust j Edgar Hoover to when they talked on the

361
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phone because they thought it was tapped. So they asked

362
00:21:00,839 --> 00:21:03,160
me to go ahead, and I rode my bicycle back

363
00:21:03,240 --> 00:21:05,559
and forth between the Justice Department and the White House,

364
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taking secrets between the two brothers.

365
00:21:08,039 --> 00:21:08,359
Speaker 2: Wow.

366
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Speaker 3: And he then said, you know, I became a legislative

367
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assistant for Senator John Sherman Cooper of I think it's

368
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Tennessee or Kentucky who was on the War and Commission,

369
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And we should talk about that just a minute, if

370
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you don't mind, because it figures into all of us.

371
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What my research showed was I needed to find what

372
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j Edgar Hoover and LBJ were up to when they

373
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chose the members of the War and Commission. This is

374
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what amazes me. You're not going to find my research

375
00:21:38,720 --> 00:21:43,119
in hardly any other authors in their books because they

376
00:21:43,160 --> 00:21:46,039
don't believe. They still believe Oswald alone and I obviously

377
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don't and proven. But one of the things that was

378
00:21:49,559 --> 00:21:51,119
amazing to me, and we're going to talk about it,

379
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when you have an eyewitness who saw Sir Hans Sir

380
00:21:53,880 --> 00:21:58,200
Han just before Robert Kennedy was dead. I went to

381
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the National Archives and I found conversations audio taped conversations

382
00:22:05,359 --> 00:22:08,960
between LBJ and Hoover as to who they wanted on

383
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the commission. It's shocking. I think readers will be shocked

384
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to see I've set it all up. Hoover says this,

385
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then LBJ says this, and all that. The bottom line

386
00:22:18,160 --> 00:22:21,440
is this, they were looking for nobody who was going

387
00:22:21,519 --> 00:22:23,799
to cause a problem with what they were doing. Of

388
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course with Oswald alone. In one instance, they even berate

389
00:22:28,519 --> 00:22:31,279
the man who became President of the United States, Gerald Ford,

390
00:22:31,359 --> 00:22:35,039
by saying that they use that old adage he can't

391
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think and chew gum. At the same time, they want

392
00:22:38,599 --> 00:22:42,160
people on there like that, and this Senator John Sherman

393
00:22:42,240 --> 00:22:45,599
Cooper was very well respected, and they put him and

394
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a Senator named Richard Russell on the commission because they

395
00:22:49,960 --> 00:22:53,079
thought that that would give reliability to what they were

396
00:22:53,079 --> 00:22:55,680
going to do. They didn't know that both of those

397
00:22:55,680 --> 00:22:59,720
men did not agree with the Oswald alone solution. And

398
00:22:59,759 --> 00:23:07,279
at the end of the supposed the investigation, the final report,

399
00:23:07,720 --> 00:23:10,799
they demanded a dissent in there that would say they

400
00:23:10,839 --> 00:23:13,079
did not believe in the single bullet theory and all

401
00:23:13,079 --> 00:23:16,680
that other kind of stuff, and unfortunately it was left out.

402
00:23:17,319 --> 00:23:19,880
As a historian, I sometimes think how that would have

403
00:23:19,960 --> 00:23:25,720
changed everything instead of that Oswald alone craziness perpetuating to today.

404
00:23:25,920 --> 00:23:28,680
That would have made a difference. But LBJ and Hoover

405
00:23:28,799 --> 00:23:32,160
put a stop to vent so this. Morris wolf then says, yeah,

406
00:23:32,200 --> 00:23:35,400
I knew Dorothy, and I bought this book because I

407
00:23:35,440 --> 00:23:37,480
don't have it with me right now. It was the

408
00:23:37,599 --> 00:23:43,640
Georgetown Social Club and Senator Cooper's wife started people read

409
00:23:43,680 --> 00:23:46,119
about this. It's never been in a book before mine,

410
00:23:46,480 --> 00:23:49,079
this new one. And if you want me to send

411
00:23:49,079 --> 00:23:51,559
you a copy, I will. It's fascinating because all the

412
00:23:51,599 --> 00:23:55,920
people who were anything in Washington went to these meetings

413
00:23:55,960 --> 00:24:00,839
they had at Senator Cooper's wife's house. That's interesting, and

414
00:24:01,319 --> 00:24:04,880
you know anybody who was anybody. So Dorothy was invited

415
00:24:04,920 --> 00:24:06,960
because even though she lived in New York City, she

416
00:24:07,079 --> 00:24:10,839
was a big shot. And Morris Wolfe said, well, Mark,

417
00:24:11,559 --> 00:24:13,960
you can imagine. I'm sure you get shocked by things

418
00:24:14,000 --> 00:24:17,079
at times. I remember an aha moment. He said, I

419
00:24:17,119 --> 00:24:20,440
sat right next to Dorothy Cogallan for dinner. Oh perfect,

420
00:24:21,160 --> 00:24:23,440
And I said you did. He said yes, And he

421
00:24:23,480 --> 00:24:26,359
said it was most interesting because I knew quite a

422
00:24:26,400 --> 00:24:28,599
bit about her, but I didn't know how good an

423
00:24:28,680 --> 00:24:32,119
investigative reporter she was. And still she started interviewing me.

424
00:24:33,039 --> 00:24:35,319
And he said, and this is a quote, she was

425
00:24:35,359 --> 00:24:39,359
a bright light bulb. She was so smart, and she

426
00:24:39,480 --> 00:24:42,039
would you know, interrogate me in some ways, but do

427
00:24:42,119 --> 00:24:43,680
it in a way that I wanted to tell her

428
00:24:43,720 --> 00:24:46,680
about things, and I did. I explained to her a

429
00:24:46,680 --> 00:24:49,079
lot of things, especially about the corruption at the War

430
00:24:49,160 --> 00:24:54,359
and Commission. How Jay Edgar Hoover and LBJ. Ramrodded the

431
00:24:54,400 --> 00:24:57,119
other members to come up with the to agree to

432
00:24:57,160 --> 00:25:07,680
the Oswald alone conclusion. How the Chief Justice Supreme Court said,

433
00:25:07,720 --> 00:25:09,319
you know, we don't go we don't need to go

434
00:25:09,519 --> 00:25:12,759
too far into this. Let's just satisfy the public. It

435
00:25:12,839 --> 00:25:15,599
was kind of political theater in some ways, was what

436
00:25:15,640 --> 00:25:19,599
that was all about. And unfortunately then they issued their report,

437
00:25:19,680 --> 00:25:23,960
and everybody in the world, including me when I was younger,

438
00:25:24,519 --> 00:25:28,279
thought that was the gospel because we trusted the government

439
00:25:28,359 --> 00:25:31,359
back then. We didn't ask questions and everything. And that's

440
00:25:31,359 --> 00:25:33,000
going to be one of the things I'll talk about

441
00:25:33,000 --> 00:25:36,400
toward the end of our conversation about people have to

442
00:25:36,519 --> 00:25:40,039
question the government, especially in sign but they didn't back then,

443
00:25:40,079 --> 00:25:43,079
and Dorothy Kilgowen was the only one that did. So

444
00:25:43,160 --> 00:25:46,680
we go ahead then and with Dorothy because she made

445
00:25:46,680 --> 00:25:50,640
her big mistake, just like Marland said, you know that

446
00:25:50,680 --> 00:25:53,920
we're I'm going to go to the media's she made

447
00:25:53,920 --> 00:25:57,200
an agreement, a contract with Random House to write a book,

448
00:25:57,240 --> 00:26:00,319
a Tell Our book about the assassination. Naming name means

449
00:26:01,160 --> 00:26:07,319
Marcello Hoover others, and that word got out obviously to

450
00:26:07,400 --> 00:26:11,880
those guys that that was happening. And so she did that.

451
00:26:12,000 --> 00:26:15,519
And then what's most important about being Dallas. She's the

452
00:26:15,559 --> 00:26:18,400
only reporter out of four hundred and you stop me

453
00:26:18,400 --> 00:26:21,119
if you have any questions, please, But there's only reporter

454
00:26:21,200 --> 00:26:23,680
out of four hundred at the Jack Ruby trial to

455
00:26:23,799 --> 00:26:27,279
interview Jack Ruby. What's the connection there? And why did

456
00:26:27,319 --> 00:26:29,960
she get to do that? Because another one of these

457
00:26:30,000 --> 00:26:33,279
facts that I found by doing my research, especially about

458
00:26:33,279 --> 00:26:34,920
what was going on in the Dallas at the time,

459
00:26:35,680 --> 00:26:40,839
Jack Ruby had a carousel club and they played they

460
00:26:40,839 --> 00:26:42,680
played What's My Line every Sunday night.

461
00:26:43,200 --> 00:26:43,839
Speaker 2: Oh perfect.

462
00:26:44,000 --> 00:26:47,759
Speaker 3: So she amored with Dorothy Kilgallan. Thought she was, you know,

463
00:26:48,519 --> 00:26:50,920
a person of truth and so on and so forth.

464
00:26:51,200 --> 00:26:53,720
So when she waltzes up to the railing at the

465
00:26:53,799 --> 00:26:55,799
Jack Ruby trial, and this is all in the book,

466
00:26:57,279 --> 00:26:59,359
he goes like this, you know, come on over. So

467
00:26:59,400 --> 00:27:01,599
she talked to him and interviewed him three times.

468
00:27:02,079 --> 00:27:03,720
Speaker 2: Wow, that's amazing, And.

469
00:27:03,799 --> 00:27:06,000
Speaker 3: What that we do not know by the way, I'm

470
00:27:06,000 --> 00:27:07,480
going to talk about her death in a little bit.

471
00:27:07,839 --> 00:27:10,480
We do not know exactly what he told her why

472
00:27:10,960 --> 00:27:14,160
because the moment she died in nineteen sixty five, under

473
00:27:14,200 --> 00:27:18,039
mysterious circumstances, there was a raid of her apartment. I

474
00:27:18,079 --> 00:27:20,079
was going to ask you about that combination of the

475
00:27:20,160 --> 00:27:24,319
FBI and the mafia, including Marcelo, and they stole all

476
00:27:24,359 --> 00:27:28,319
of her records and just investigation records and all jfkre

477
00:27:29,440 --> 00:27:32,240
JFK investigation records and her manuscript.

478
00:27:32,880 --> 00:27:34,599
Speaker 2: I was going to ask because what happened to all

479
00:27:34,640 --> 00:27:37,240
that information? Because if she has all this information, it

480
00:27:37,319 --> 00:27:39,200
had to go somewhere. So I was curious about that.

481
00:27:39,279 --> 00:27:41,079
Speaker 3: I've tried to find it everywhere. I try to find

482
00:27:41,079 --> 00:27:45,359
an FBI files, National Archives Archive, all these kind in places.

483
00:27:45,359 --> 00:27:47,359
None we can't find it. I'm going to keep after it.

484
00:27:48,000 --> 00:27:50,440
So anyway, she makes that mistake, But where does she go?

485
00:27:50,839 --> 00:27:52,359
We don't know what he said, but where does she go?

486
00:27:52,680 --> 00:27:58,039
She goes to New Orleans. Now, Carlos Marcelo had been

487
00:27:59,680 --> 00:28:02,039
had a and a friend of mafioso in New York

488
00:28:02,119 --> 00:28:05,519
named Frank Costello, who Dorothy knew. By the way, she

489
00:28:05,640 --> 00:28:09,200
knew some of the mafioso in New York City. In fact,

490
00:28:09,279 --> 00:28:11,480
she used to have a lunch with he and some

491
00:28:11,599 --> 00:28:14,799
of the other boombas. I guess you could call him

492
00:28:14,880 --> 00:28:17,079
or whatever. It's kind of derogatory. I shouldn't say that.

493
00:28:18,519 --> 00:28:22,880
In the East Village there's a restaurant called PJ. Clarks,

494
00:28:22,880 --> 00:28:25,839
I think that's where it is. And in fact, when

495
00:28:25,880 --> 00:28:27,960
I went back for a ceremony about Dorothy I'm going

496
00:28:28,000 --> 00:28:29,799
to talk to you about in a minute, I sat

497
00:28:29,920 --> 00:28:32,279
right near where she was on the last night of

498
00:28:32,319 --> 00:28:36,119
her life. So she knew Costello. He set up Carlos

499
00:28:36,240 --> 00:28:41,720
Marcelo in New Orleans for his gambling, for the prostitutes,

500
00:28:41,759 --> 00:28:46,240
for the killings. He was a very very dangerous man,

501
00:28:46,359 --> 00:28:49,680
as I have proven the in the in the new

502
00:28:49,680 --> 00:28:53,240
book and before. You can't mess around with those guys.

503
00:28:53,279 --> 00:28:54,799
If we have time, and I'll tell you a personal

504
00:28:54,839 --> 00:28:56,680
story of mine, when I was working with Good Morning

505
00:28:56,680 --> 00:28:59,480
America and I interviewed the lawyer for one of the

506
00:28:59,480 --> 00:29:03,519
mafios and found out what happens to somebody when they

507
00:29:03,519 --> 00:29:07,119
open their mouth and shouldn't. So she did that. She

508
00:29:07,200 --> 00:29:11,319
went to New Orleans and she investigated, and she went

509
00:29:11,359 --> 00:29:17,599
to Pete Marcello, who was Marcello's brother's restaurant. She talked

510
00:29:17,599 --> 00:29:20,839
to people there about Marcello. She took one of her

511
00:29:20,960 --> 00:29:24,960
hairdresser's named Mark Sinclair, who will come into view here

512
00:29:25,039 --> 00:29:27,759
because he's the one who found her body on November eighth,

513
00:29:27,839 --> 00:29:30,799
nineteen sixty five. She took him with her to do

514
00:29:30,880 --> 00:29:33,519
her hair and stuff like that, you know, and all

515
00:29:33,559 --> 00:29:36,039
at once he got a phone call from a payphone

516
00:29:36,160 --> 00:29:39,200
in downtown New Orleans. She said, you go back to

517
00:29:39,319 --> 00:29:42,279
New York City. You don't tell anybody you were here,

518
00:29:42,519 --> 00:29:45,000
and you don't ask any more questions about what I

519
00:29:45,119 --> 00:29:45,519
was doing.

520
00:29:46,279 --> 00:29:48,279
Speaker 2: Wow, so she knew.

521
00:29:48,200 --> 00:29:50,079
Speaker 3: Goes back to New York City and she should have

522
00:29:50,160 --> 00:29:53,240
kept her mouth shut, But she starts telling her lawyer,

523
00:29:53,720 --> 00:29:56,440
which gets out who because he represented a couple of

524
00:29:56,440 --> 00:29:59,319
the mafia people. I'm going to crack the case wide open.

525
00:30:00,200 --> 00:30:02,319
I know what happened with the president and it was

526
00:30:02,359 --> 00:30:07,039
not Oswald alone. I am able to go ahead and

527
00:30:07,119 --> 00:30:09,799
put all the pieces together as to what happened with

528
00:30:09,880 --> 00:30:14,960
regard to Marcello. And uh she she also uh then

529
00:30:15,200 --> 00:30:19,039
uh showed the the danger she was in. She told

530
00:30:19,200 --> 00:30:23,480
Mark Sinclair, if the wrong people know about what I

531
00:30:23,559 --> 00:30:26,799
know about the JFT assassination. It will cost me my life.

532
00:30:27,759 --> 00:30:30,440
I'm afraid for my life and my family. I bought

533
00:30:30,440 --> 00:30:35,200
a gun. I'm getting death threat. About less than a

534
00:30:35,200 --> 00:30:40,799
month later, she's dead. Wow, and under these mysterious circumstances.

535
00:30:40,920 --> 00:30:44,000
See again, I didn't know anything about Dorothy Kilgallen. I

536
00:30:44,079 --> 00:30:46,519
had to research her when she died. And we're gonna

537
00:30:46,519 --> 00:30:48,920
you're gonna hear the fact there was no investigation of

538
00:30:48,920 --> 00:30:54,200
her death. The official verdict was supposedly overdose of drugs,

539
00:30:54,400 --> 00:30:57,200
circumstances undetermined, whatever the hell that meant?

540
00:30:57,279 --> 00:30:58,720
Speaker 2: Yeah, any sense?

541
00:30:59,559 --> 00:31:04,920
Speaker 3: No? So anyway, she tells them that, and then you know,

542
00:31:05,599 --> 00:31:09,160
not too long later, she's dead. Mark Sinclair walks into

543
00:31:09,319 --> 00:31:14,160
her townhouse on East sixty eighth Street and ends up

544
00:31:14,160 --> 00:31:17,440
going upstairs to where she was, where she normally dressed,

545
00:31:18,079 --> 00:31:21,000
and she's not there, And so he goes into the

546
00:31:21,079 --> 00:31:23,200
bedroom and she is found on a bed she never

547
00:31:23,240 --> 00:31:26,319
slept in, wearing clothes like she's going on a date.

548
00:31:26,880 --> 00:31:29,920
She's got her eyelashes, her hair piece, and her makeup on.

549
00:31:30,720 --> 00:31:34,559
There is a book on her lap upside down. The

550
00:31:34,640 --> 00:31:38,960
air conditioner is on, even though it's freezing outside. And

551
00:31:39,000 --> 00:31:43,160
he goes over. And it always gets me when I

552
00:31:43,200 --> 00:31:46,799
hear this, because I have such respect for this woman.

553
00:31:46,839 --> 00:31:49,920
She should have never been killed. He goes over and

554
00:31:49,960 --> 00:31:53,240
touches her, and you know, she's dead. So he tells

555
00:31:53,279 --> 00:31:56,599
the butler and asks him to get a hold of

556
00:31:56,640 --> 00:31:59,960
the authorities. But for whatever reason, we're not exactly shere,

557
00:32:00,160 --> 00:32:03,359
I entered the butler interviewed the butler's daughter. He waited

558
00:32:03,400 --> 00:32:05,720
a while. I think he was bewrought with the fact

559
00:32:05,759 --> 00:32:07,519
that that's the right word, be wrought with the fact

560
00:32:07,519 --> 00:32:11,200
that she was dead. So finally the authorities come in

561
00:32:11,240 --> 00:32:16,240
the afternoon after this raid. It takes all of her

562
00:32:16,680 --> 00:32:19,480
documentation and all of her files and everything else.

563
00:32:19,519 --> 00:32:21,680
Speaker 2: While she's dead in the room, they come in and

564
00:32:21,720 --> 00:32:25,640
take all the information. Yeah, this is that's ridiculous.

565
00:32:26,079 --> 00:32:29,640
Speaker 3: Yeah, no investigation of any kind. They send a first

566
00:32:29,759 --> 00:32:33,279
year detective there. He glances at the table by the

567
00:32:33,279 --> 00:32:37,480
bed and he sees an empty second all bottle and

568
00:32:37,519 --> 00:32:40,799
he says, basically, oh my god, it's just another celebrity

569
00:32:40,799 --> 00:32:46,519
who's a druggie. So the medical Examiner's office at the

570
00:32:46,559 --> 00:32:51,240
time goes ahead and they supposedly are which is interesting

571
00:32:51,279 --> 00:32:53,359
by the way, they conducted an autopsy.

572
00:32:54,119 --> 00:32:56,279
Speaker 2: Okay, then they would know Hence.

573
00:32:56,160 --> 00:32:59,160
Speaker 3: Lawyer, you don't conduct an autopsy unless you think something's wrong.

574
00:33:00,319 --> 00:33:02,920
But they're going to go ahead and do that, and

575
00:33:02,960 --> 00:33:07,000
they come back with that stupid verdict of overdose of

576
00:33:07,079 --> 00:33:13,519
drugs circumstances undetermined. And unfortunately then they feed that information

577
00:33:13,559 --> 00:33:17,880
to the media and that's when Dorothy Kilgallen vanished her

578
00:33:17,960 --> 00:33:20,079
name and everything vanished from the face of the earth.

579
00:33:20,160 --> 00:33:23,240
That's why I didn't know anything about her when I

580
00:33:23,319 --> 00:33:28,680
started investigating what eight or nine years ago, because they

581
00:33:28,839 --> 00:33:31,079
just all that was cut off. Now I have sense,

582
00:33:31,119 --> 00:33:33,400
and in the new book, people will be fascinated with this.

583
00:33:34,480 --> 00:33:36,839
I interviewed three or four people who worked at the

584
00:33:36,880 --> 00:33:40,319
Medical Examiner's office, and what they told me is frightening.

585
00:33:41,200 --> 00:33:45,079
One person, a former a deputy sheriff in an accounting

586
00:33:46,039 --> 00:33:50,160
adjoining county who worked at the Medical Examiner's office at

587
00:33:50,160 --> 00:33:54,119
the Times, told me that listen, it's not like mobster

588
00:33:54,279 --> 00:33:58,160
Joe Banano came into the office every day, but all

589
00:33:58,240 --> 00:34:06,079
of those working there were from Sicily. Well Marcello, yeah,

590
00:34:06,319 --> 00:34:09,000
so he told me also about the all the mix

591
00:34:09,119 --> 00:34:14,719
ups with identifying bodies and everything else. Fortunately, one of

592
00:34:14,760 --> 00:34:18,840
them was doctor Charles Umberger, who was at the at

593
00:34:18,840 --> 00:34:22,000
the autopsy and around there and two years later he

594
00:34:22,039 --> 00:34:27,320
had kept Dorothy's bodily bodily fluids to do a new

595
00:34:27,360 --> 00:34:30,159
analysis at some point, but he had to wait because

596
00:34:30,159 --> 00:34:32,400
he was scared that the mafia might come after him.

597
00:34:32,920 --> 00:34:38,199
So he conducted a a a you know, a another

598
00:34:38,239 --> 00:34:41,039
account of looking at those looking at those body of

599
00:34:41,119 --> 00:34:44,519
balley fluids. In the autopsy, it says she died of

600
00:34:44,639 --> 00:34:52,400
one particular barbituate second hall which are sleeping pills. Okay,

601
00:34:53,119 --> 00:34:57,639
he found tulanol and phena barbital in her stomach. He

602
00:34:57,719 --> 00:35:03,159
found phena barbital uh remnants on a glass right next

603
00:35:03,159 --> 00:35:07,480
to the bed. And he obviously knew that there was

604
00:35:07,519 --> 00:35:11,719
more to her death than because I had a pharmacologist

605
00:35:11,800 --> 00:35:14,079
go ahead and analyze what it would be like to

606
00:35:14,159 --> 00:35:17,320
have those three barbituates in her system and he said, basically,

607
00:35:17,440 --> 00:35:21,880
it's murder. Yeah, she would die from those. So that's

608
00:35:22,239 --> 00:35:24,639
information that people will enjoy in the book as far

609
00:35:24,639 --> 00:35:29,039
as what happened to her, And there's new there's no

610
00:35:29,119 --> 00:35:31,480
interviews of these people at the Emmy office. Now you

611
00:35:31,559 --> 00:35:34,679
just have to stop and think again. If you are

612
00:35:34,679 --> 00:35:37,719
a member of the mafia. And you want to have

613
00:35:37,840 --> 00:35:42,480
someone killed, you certainly don't do it yourself. You need

614
00:35:42,519 --> 00:35:46,000
someone else to do it. You need these Patsy's. It

615
00:35:46,039 --> 00:35:49,880
was Oswald with the jfk assassination and Jack Ruby as well,

616
00:35:49,920 --> 00:35:54,960
in my opinion, and Dorothy had some feelings towards him

617
00:35:55,360 --> 00:35:58,480
being used. She met him at the Jack Ruby trials,

618
00:35:58,480 --> 00:36:01,199
I said, and all that. So you've got Oswald and

619
00:36:01,280 --> 00:36:03,960
Jack Ruby there at the thing. So then what do

620
00:36:04,039 --> 00:36:07,800
we look at with regard to what happened to Dorothy. Well,

621
00:36:08,400 --> 00:36:11,760
she had fallen in love with Her marriage was a strange.

622
00:36:11,760 --> 00:36:15,000
Her husband was an alcoholic and a playmaker with the women.

623
00:36:15,800 --> 00:36:20,119
So she had fallen in love with a Midwestern journalist

624
00:36:20,159 --> 00:36:24,000
named Ron Kataki and he latched on to her. He

625
00:36:24,039 --> 00:36:28,880
was twenty years younger. They had a love affair, but

626
00:36:28,960 --> 00:36:31,440
she made a huge mistake with him because she trusted

627
00:36:31,519 --> 00:36:36,480
him and she shared with him her jfk assassination evidence.

628
00:36:37,480 --> 00:36:39,360
And we find out in the new book, and readers

629
00:36:39,400 --> 00:36:42,039
will find out that he had some of the same

630
00:36:42,119 --> 00:36:45,719
problems that Sir Hans sir Han had. He was a

631
00:36:45,800 --> 00:36:50,079
degenerate gambler. He had a lot of gambling debts, he

632
00:36:50,159 --> 00:36:53,800
was easily compromised. He had known a couple of the

633
00:36:53,840 --> 00:36:57,320
mafioso who knew Marcello, and I've been able to prove

634
00:36:57,360 --> 00:36:59,480
in the book that he is the one that went

635
00:36:59,519 --> 00:37:04,760
ahead and set up Dorothy Kilgown for her death because

636
00:37:04,800 --> 00:37:07,599
the night before they met, well the night actually of

637
00:37:07,639 --> 00:37:10,280
the death, they met at a hotel near her home,

638
00:37:10,760 --> 00:37:13,960
and she confronted him with leaking her material to what

639
00:37:14,000 --> 00:37:18,119
she called the wrong people. So he had the motive

640
00:37:18,199 --> 00:37:21,639
to save himself. And people who read the book will will,

641
00:37:21,679 --> 00:37:24,320
I think, be interested in how that goes forward, because

642
00:37:24,320 --> 00:37:28,280
now you've got a patsy with JFK's death, and you've

643
00:37:28,320 --> 00:37:32,199
got a patsy in my opinion with regard to Ron pattacking. Now,

644
00:37:32,199 --> 00:37:34,639
they didn't kill him, They just scared the hell out

645
00:37:34,639 --> 00:37:36,840
of my opinion, to keep his mouth shut, and he did.

646
00:37:37,719 --> 00:37:40,880
The kicker in there is that there's a poem by

647
00:37:40,960 --> 00:37:46,760
Robert by Pataki that's in the book, and it basically

648
00:37:46,880 --> 00:37:51,199
talks about exactly how Dorothy Kilgown would have been killed

649
00:37:51,599 --> 00:37:55,440
by being poisoned. It has a bartender, it talks about

650
00:37:55,480 --> 00:38:01,599
poisoning herb a vodka and by antonic drink, which is

651
00:38:01,639 --> 00:38:06,880
exactly what she drank. It's all the facts that only

652
00:38:06,960 --> 00:38:11,239
somebody who orchestrated the death would know. Now. I interviewed

653
00:38:11,320 --> 00:38:14,239
Ron Pattack he two or three times, wow, and I

654
00:38:14,280 --> 00:38:18,320
was convinced that he was the one who orchestrated her death.

655
00:38:19,039 --> 00:38:22,159
He kept lying about things he didn't know about that

656
00:38:22,199 --> 00:38:24,239
he wasn't there, he wasn't in New York, and all

657
00:38:24,280 --> 00:38:26,239
that proved all of that wrong. And I finally said

658
00:38:26,239 --> 00:38:29,880
to him, Ron, listen, I see that you have gone

659
00:38:29,920 --> 00:38:33,519
to seminary, and I think it's because you have guilt

660
00:38:34,000 --> 00:38:37,519
about ending Dorothy Kilgallan, who loved you by the way

661
00:38:37,719 --> 00:38:42,880
her death. And there was a long pause, and I said,

662
00:38:42,920 --> 00:38:44,920
I want you to tell me what happened, so that

663
00:38:45,039 --> 00:38:47,840
people know what happened. I won't say anything about this

664
00:38:48,400 --> 00:38:51,119
until you're dead, but I want you to tell me.

665
00:38:51,840 --> 00:38:54,639
And he went ahead and he started to talk about it,

666
00:38:55,119 --> 00:38:57,000
and then he stumbled a little bit, and then he

667
00:38:57,079 --> 00:39:02,920
hung up. I'm so so scared of such regret that

668
00:39:03,000 --> 00:39:05,039
I did not get all of that on tape or

669
00:39:05,159 --> 00:39:08,559
do something with it or whatever. But I didn't, and

670
00:39:08,599 --> 00:39:12,480
I'm sorry that I couldn't. So that's Dorothy Kilgallen and

671
00:39:12,519 --> 00:39:15,519
her situation. So I always say this to my wife

672
00:39:15,559 --> 00:39:18,199
after I write one of these books and that's it,

673
00:39:18,280 --> 00:39:21,679
and she says, oh, yeah, sure, because she knows than

674
00:39:21,679 --> 00:39:27,559
that maybe with you. Robert Kennedy's death had always intrigued me.

675
00:39:28,360 --> 00:39:31,280
I could never believe, just as I never believed about Oswald,

676
00:39:31,800 --> 00:39:35,639
that he could possibly have done this alone. So again,

677
00:39:35,760 --> 00:39:37,599
I am not the smartest guy in the world, and

678
00:39:37,639 --> 00:39:41,840
I admit that I nearly flunked out of Purdue University.

679
00:39:42,199 --> 00:39:44,000
It took me five and a half years to get

680
00:39:44,000 --> 00:39:48,519
through the law school. You know, I'm not the smartest guy,

681
00:39:48,639 --> 00:39:51,760
but I am a plotter and I will go after

682
00:39:51,880 --> 00:39:54,800
things and do everything I can. So at some point

683
00:39:54,880 --> 00:39:58,000
about a year ago, I decided, yeah, I'm going to

684
00:39:58,079 --> 00:40:00,920
look into Robert Kennedy's death. Am I why? I started laughing,

685
00:40:01,519 --> 00:40:04,400
And so I went ahead. And what can I do?

686
00:40:04,679 --> 00:40:08,920
I know Marcello has the strongest motive to have eliminated

687
00:40:09,000 --> 00:40:12,920
Robert Kennedy, because why he cannot let Robert Kennedy become

688
00:40:13,000 --> 00:40:16,360
president because he knows and I've been proved. I proved

689
00:40:16,360 --> 00:40:19,039
this through some other evidence that the first thing Robert

690
00:40:19,079 --> 00:40:22,599
Kennedy will do is come after Marcello because.

691
00:40:22,280 --> 00:40:25,480
Speaker 2: He has a pretty good chance of being president.

692
00:40:26,639 --> 00:40:28,559
Speaker 3: And we'll talk about that in just a minute, okay.

693
00:40:29,199 --> 00:40:32,679
And so he knows that Bobby Kennedy is going to

694
00:40:32,719 --> 00:40:36,320
come after him because he knows that Marcello set up

695
00:40:36,360 --> 00:40:40,559
the assassination of JFK. So how is he going to

696
00:40:40,639 --> 00:40:45,400
do something with this? Uh? He knows that that Bobby

697
00:40:45,480 --> 00:40:49,559
Kennedy has just won the California primary and so now

698
00:40:49,599 --> 00:40:51,920
he's really got some problems. But even before that, he

699
00:40:52,000 --> 00:40:55,039
had to try to figure out a way to get

700
00:40:55,079 --> 00:40:58,599
into the whole situation. And he learns about Sir Hans

701
00:40:58,599 --> 00:41:03,119
Sir Han from again gangster named Mickey Cohen, who will

702
00:41:03,119 --> 00:41:07,519
go back for just a minute, Los Angeles gangster represented

703
00:41:07,559 --> 00:41:13,519
by Melvin Belli. Mm hmm. So there's a connection there, yep.

704
00:41:13,760 --> 00:41:18,119
So he starts to look into who can who can

705
00:41:18,239 --> 00:41:21,599
who how can he get his connection out to Los Angeles.

706
00:41:21,880 --> 00:41:24,199
He looks into this Mickey Cohen who is who is

707
00:41:24,280 --> 00:41:28,840
Belli's client and finds out that he knew this basically

708
00:41:29,039 --> 00:41:33,400
that Mickey Cohen was in charge of the Underworld rackits

709
00:41:33,400 --> 00:41:38,440
and everything in Southern California, including the race tracks Perfect

710
00:41:39,000 --> 00:41:43,280
Santa Anita, Hollywood Park and all of that. So at

711
00:41:43,280 --> 00:41:46,679
that time, Mickey Cohen is in prison, but as you know,

712
00:41:47,079 --> 00:41:51,559
many times those people can use their contacts outside. So

713
00:41:51,599 --> 00:41:54,400
he starts to ask about what Cohen knows, and they

714
00:41:54,440 --> 00:41:59,360
find out about a man who is work who had

715
00:41:59,360 --> 00:42:03,039
worked at Santa I Need a Park Tony Racetrack and

716
00:42:03,280 --> 00:42:07,719
his name is Sir Hans Sir Han. So what happens

717
00:42:07,719 --> 00:42:10,239
then is that I was able to find this video

718
00:42:10,360 --> 00:42:14,719
tape that is in the book. I mean, there's no

719
00:42:14,960 --> 00:42:17,079
and we're going to talk about Carlos Marcello's confession in

720
00:42:17,119 --> 00:42:21,599
a little bit, but I found this a video on

721
00:42:21,760 --> 00:42:27,519
YouTube that's been up there for four years that nobody

722
00:42:27,559 --> 00:42:31,000
else seemed to think meant anything, and it is an

723
00:42:31,039 --> 00:42:34,079
account by a paddock captain at Santa I Need a

724
00:42:34,159 --> 00:42:38,599
racetrack just south of Los Angeles and what this gentleman says,

725
00:42:38,639 --> 00:42:41,079
and I'll kind of summarize it, but first I want

726
00:42:41,119 --> 00:42:44,559
to give the credibility of this paddock captain. He was

727
00:42:44,599 --> 00:42:47,920
a hero because he had been working at Santa I

728
00:42:47,920 --> 00:42:51,599
Need a Racetrack for years. But one day in I

729
00:42:51,639 --> 00:42:54,400
think it was the summer of sixty seven, he's in

730
00:42:54,440 --> 00:42:57,800
the paddock area and one of the horses gets loose,

731
00:42:58,559 --> 00:43:02,480
and there is a little girl five years old standing there,

732
00:43:03,599 --> 00:43:06,880
and the horse goes toward her. And this man puts

733
00:43:06,960 --> 00:43:10,840
himself in front of the horse and saves this little

734
00:43:10,840 --> 00:43:14,960
girl's life. It breaks every bone in his body. Now

735
00:43:15,559 --> 00:43:18,360
he has all these surgeries for a year. That's this man.

736
00:43:19,639 --> 00:43:23,119
And so I looked into this and this man, then

737
00:43:23,199 --> 00:43:27,320
John Shears, his name went ahead, and I was able

738
00:43:27,320 --> 00:43:29,679
to find in this video that he worked there all

739
00:43:29,719 --> 00:43:32,599
those years. And then in the summer of nineteen sixty eight,

740
00:43:34,119 --> 00:43:35,719
a young man, I think it was in the sixty

741
00:43:35,760 --> 00:43:37,840
seven or first part of sixty eight, a young man

742
00:43:37,960 --> 00:43:42,159
comes into the racetrack and comes back to the paddock

743
00:43:42,199 --> 00:43:45,719
area and says to this man John, I need a job.

744
00:43:46,320 --> 00:43:50,360
And John says, well, all we have is a hot walker,

745
00:43:50,440 --> 00:43:53,559
which means you walk the horses after the races. It

746
00:43:53,639 --> 00:43:56,239
pays one hundred dollars two hundred dollars a month, which

747
00:43:56,280 --> 00:43:58,960
is nothing back there then even and the guy says,

748
00:43:59,400 --> 00:44:03,719
I'll take it. That was Sir Hans, Sir Han. So

749
00:44:03,840 --> 00:44:06,119
John Sheer then tells the story. He worked there for

750
00:44:06,199 --> 00:44:09,239
quite a while. He was rather meek. He was rather,

751
00:44:09,920 --> 00:44:14,880
he could easily be influenced. He had some ill feelings

752
00:44:14,880 --> 00:44:18,559
towards Robert Kennedy because he was Palestinian and so on

753
00:44:18,559 --> 00:44:20,719
and so forth in the Israeli thing, and we'll get

754
00:44:20,760 --> 00:44:24,159
into how that fits into everything. But he was a

755
00:44:24,199 --> 00:44:27,239
guy who could be easily manipulated. That was what John

756
00:44:27,239 --> 00:44:29,239
Shear says. And people can make up their own mind

757
00:44:29,239 --> 00:44:33,320
when they watched the video in the book. So he says,

758
00:44:33,360 --> 00:44:35,000
all right, well, he's there for a while, and he

759
00:44:35,039 --> 00:44:41,679
finally leaves, and just right before Robert Kennedy is killed

760
00:44:41,840 --> 00:44:45,159
in June of nineteen sixty eight, he and his wife

761
00:44:45,199 --> 00:44:47,559
were going to Hollywood Park and they see Sir Hans

762
00:44:47,599 --> 00:44:50,840
Sir Han walking up some steps and there's two big

763
00:44:50,880 --> 00:44:53,719
guys on either side of him, looking like they're kind

764
00:44:53,760 --> 00:44:59,039
of controlling him. He called them hoodlums, and he said,

765
00:44:59,119 --> 00:45:02,039
I remember that they had been thrown out of Hollywood,

766
00:45:02,360 --> 00:45:05,559
thrown out of Santa Nita Racetrack. And the other thing

767
00:45:05,599 --> 00:45:07,800
he said is he's dressed in a brand new suit,

768
00:45:08,360 --> 00:45:11,000
he has money, and the man is unemployed.

769
00:45:11,559 --> 00:45:14,000
Speaker 2: Yeah, and he was making two hundred dollars a month.

770
00:45:14,480 --> 00:45:18,199
Speaker 3: So he's very quizzical about that. And then what happens

771
00:45:18,320 --> 00:45:21,519
is the day that Robert Kennedy, you know, by the way,

772
00:45:21,719 --> 00:45:25,039
I've been given the explanation that Sir Han had somehow

773
00:45:25,119 --> 00:45:28,679
or another gone ahead and had had some money from

774
00:45:28,719 --> 00:45:31,679
a medical settlement or something like that. But these are

775
00:45:31,760 --> 00:45:34,760
four Crisp one hundred dollars bills that they find in

776
00:45:34,800 --> 00:45:37,679
his pocket when he's arrested. And I will tell you,

777
00:45:37,760 --> 00:45:40,639
to this day, nobody has ever been able to explain

778
00:45:41,360 --> 00:45:44,480
how that money was there or about these two hudlums.

779
00:45:44,559 --> 00:45:49,159
So Bobby Kennedy dies and John Sheer and his wife

780
00:45:49,199 --> 00:45:52,840
are watching La television and it's and there's a mugshot.

781
00:45:52,920 --> 00:45:55,960
It's in the book of Sir Han. Do you know

782
00:45:56,079 --> 00:45:58,719
this man? Because they didn't, or at least they said

783
00:45:58,760 --> 00:46:02,400
they didn't. He's the FBI and the l APD. So

784
00:46:02,679 --> 00:46:06,239
his wife makes him call the authorities at Hollywood Park,

785
00:46:06,239 --> 00:46:09,519
which is nearby Santa Nita Racetrack, and he tells him

786
00:46:09,599 --> 00:46:13,639
their story, his story, believing the FBI and the and

787
00:46:13,719 --> 00:46:18,159
the LAPD will go ahead and get in touch with him.

788
00:46:18,199 --> 00:46:19,440
He asked them to get in touch, gives them a

789
00:46:19,440 --> 00:46:24,320
phone number and everything. They never do. They never contact

790
00:46:24,400 --> 00:46:27,559
him once and the kicker to that, which again leads

791
00:46:27,639 --> 00:46:32,679
us back to possible involvement by Marcelo Mafia. Whatever. Yeah,

792
00:46:33,000 --> 00:46:35,960
he says on that tape. For the next year, every

793
00:46:36,000 --> 00:46:38,039
time my wife and I picked up the phone, we

794
00:46:38,159 --> 00:46:42,079
heard a click and we knew our phones were being tapped,

795
00:46:42,760 --> 00:46:45,480
that somebody was listening in because they thought that we

796
00:46:45,800 --> 00:46:49,239
might know more about the whole Sirhan thing, you know

797
00:46:49,639 --> 00:46:54,000
an that. So then the thing that it really upset me,

798
00:46:54,039 --> 00:46:57,920
because I'm a criminal former defense lawyer from a defense lawyer,

799
00:46:58,840 --> 00:47:02,840
is the fact that on purpose, in my opinion, one

800
00:47:02,840 --> 00:47:05,679
of the lawyers for first lawyers for Sir Hans sir

801
00:47:05,760 --> 00:47:11,719
Han represented a mafioso called Johnny Roselle m a is

802
00:47:11,760 --> 00:47:15,639
a compatriot of Marcello. And one of the things that

803
00:47:15,760 --> 00:47:18,159
happened with that lawyer and other ones was they just

804
00:47:18,199 --> 00:47:20,800
threw him to the wolves. He said he couldn't remember

805
00:47:20,800 --> 00:47:23,159
what happened. One time he said he thought, you know,

806
00:47:23,239 --> 00:47:25,480
he'd been hypnotized. I mean, there was all this crazy stuff.

807
00:47:25,480 --> 00:47:27,000
At one point he wanted to plead guilty and the

808
00:47:27,079 --> 00:47:29,199
judge wouldn't take care of it. I mean, here's this

809
00:47:29,320 --> 00:47:34,480
little man being used abusive power by these people. And

810
00:47:35,559 --> 00:47:37,719
so in the middle of the trial, one of his

811
00:47:37,800 --> 00:47:41,599
lawyers stands up, well, you know, our client is guilty

812
00:47:41,639 --> 00:47:43,679
of killing Robert Kennedy.

813
00:47:45,039 --> 00:47:48,840
Speaker 2: Imagine that Wait, okay, okay. As a lawyer, though, is

814
00:47:48,840 --> 00:47:50,880
that like a normal thing, would you just stand up

815
00:47:50,920 --> 00:47:53,840
and be like, oh, yeah, I mean, there was.

816
00:47:53,800 --> 00:47:56,000
Speaker 3: No way that he wasn't going to be convicted, and

817
00:47:56,039 --> 00:48:00,000
he was. He was pronounced kill him with the death penal.

818
00:48:00,639 --> 00:48:03,199
Fortunately California didn't have the death penalty and so that

819
00:48:03,239 --> 00:48:06,199
didn't happen. But if you go on through that, what's

820
00:48:06,239 --> 00:48:10,519
fascinating about the whole Robert Kennedy situation is that when

821
00:48:10,559 --> 00:48:14,559
he was shot, you know, on that evening in June,

822
00:48:14,800 --> 00:48:19,480
you know, there there wasn't any proper investigation, no proper

823
00:48:19,519 --> 00:48:24,000
investigation in JFK's death, Dorothy Kilgallon's death, and and now

824
00:48:24,159 --> 00:48:25,400
in Robert Kennedy's death.

825
00:48:25,679 --> 00:48:29,000
Speaker 2: So do the authorities know that it was all set up? No?

826
00:48:29,320 --> 00:48:32,639
Speaker 3: Oh no, I just like they think they did, but

827
00:48:32,679 --> 00:48:36,719
they didn't. JEdgar Hoover knew about Oswald not being alone

828
00:48:36,719 --> 00:48:40,880
and Ruby and and Hoover knew about Dorothy kill Gallan,

829
00:48:41,440 --> 00:48:43,599
that there was a was a plot to kill her.

830
00:48:43,920 --> 00:48:46,480
And the same thing with Robert Kennedy. But you see,

831
00:48:46,480 --> 00:48:49,960
those those men who abused power, they cannot let that happen.

832
00:48:50,440 --> 00:48:53,840
They cannot let uh, you know, the American public know

833
00:48:53,920 --> 00:48:55,360
what happened. And I'm going to tell you a little

834
00:48:55,360 --> 00:48:58,719
while how unfortunately we're having a recurrence of that today

835
00:48:59,039 --> 00:49:02,599
with a government body that supposed was supposed to look

836
00:49:02,639 --> 00:49:04,440
into these assassinations and hasn't done.

837
00:49:04,480 --> 00:49:06,920
Speaker 2: So I have a question about Hoover really quick, because,

838
00:49:06,960 --> 00:49:10,679
like I in my research, I found that like LBJ

839
00:49:11,119 --> 00:49:13,280
had some like he wanted to be president, right, so

840
00:49:13,760 --> 00:49:17,320
that makes sense why he would be involved in JFK's death.

841
00:49:17,559 --> 00:49:20,280
But why Hoover, Why was he so involved with all

842
00:49:20,360 --> 00:49:22,320
these Why was he like trying to cover everything up?

843
00:49:23,079 --> 00:49:29,639
Speaker 3: A smart person, good question, because Jaegar Hoover, if if

844
00:49:29,679 --> 00:49:32,119
there are any plots I'm gonna use I'm gonna use

845
00:49:32,159 --> 00:49:37,599
your C word plots to kill these three people, then

846
00:49:37,840 --> 00:49:41,280
there is gonna be some real problems with that because

847
00:49:41,800 --> 00:49:46,119
the FBI will be blamed for not stopping them, especially

848
00:49:46,159 --> 00:49:47,719
with regard to JFK.

849
00:49:48,159 --> 00:49:50,920
Speaker 2: Okay, he was the director of the FBI at the time, right.

850
00:49:51,000 --> 00:49:54,159
Speaker 3: And so what does he do the moment JFK dies,

851
00:49:54,920 --> 00:49:58,800
he has his his his staff and send out a

852
00:49:59,400 --> 00:50:03,960
communicat it's Oswald alone, It's Oswald alone. It is Oswald alone, Okay,

853
00:50:05,000 --> 00:50:07,159
and he and he and he goes ahead. And also

854
00:50:07,440 --> 00:50:09,800
the thing that really made a difference that I've proven

855
00:50:09,840 --> 00:50:11,639
in the books and a little more in the new one,

856
00:50:12,440 --> 00:50:16,440
is that he basically has his agent steal John F.

857
00:50:16,519 --> 00:50:21,079
Kennedy's body. The autopsy of John F. Kennedy should have been.

858
00:50:20,960 --> 00:50:23,039
Speaker 2: In Dallas, yeah, right away.

859
00:50:23,039 --> 00:50:26,639
Speaker 3: Parkland Hospital, all right. And what we would find out

860
00:50:26,639 --> 00:50:28,960
people will find out in the book that if those autops,

861
00:50:29,000 --> 00:50:32,079
if that autopsy would have been done in Parkland. There's

862
00:50:32,119 --> 00:50:37,800
a great video, very informative video the Parkland Parkland doctors

863
00:50:38,000 --> 00:50:41,920
on YouTube where they discuss what happened and each one

864
00:50:41,960 --> 00:50:44,400
of them when they were looking at the wounds to

865
00:50:44,559 --> 00:50:49,079
JFK said the shots came from the front.

866
00:50:49,199 --> 00:50:52,440
Speaker 2: Which doesn't work if Oswald was the murderer.

867
00:50:52,800 --> 00:50:54,960
Speaker 3: And I don't want to forget to talk about the

868
00:50:55,119 --> 00:50:59,440
shots that killed the Robert Kennedy because Sir hansor Han

869
00:50:59,559 --> 00:51:02,599
was in front of Bobby Kennedy. The shots that killed

870
00:51:02,679 --> 00:51:05,440
him are in the back and in the neck. Now

871
00:51:05,480 --> 00:51:07,440
people have said, well, he might have turned his head.

872
00:51:07,760 --> 00:51:11,400
Come on, you just like point. Let's go back to

873
00:51:11,440 --> 00:51:13,800
Hoover though. Okay, so he gets rid of the body

874
00:51:13,800 --> 00:51:16,719
at sent East and doctor Sarah Weck, who is I

875
00:51:16,719 --> 00:51:21,239
believe the most the most formidable forensic scientists who ever lived. Unfortunately,

876
00:51:21,280 --> 00:51:23,920
God love him, he died about a year ago. Uh

877
00:51:24,039 --> 00:51:26,599
he he gave me an account out of sixty thousand

878
00:51:26,719 --> 00:51:31,159
autopsies he conducted during his longevity with being a forensic

879
00:51:31,280 --> 00:51:34,039
expert and being in the media and everything, the jfk

880
00:51:34,199 --> 00:51:39,280
assassination autopsy is the worst one he ever saw because

881
00:51:39,320 --> 00:51:45,159
they went along, they milt, these military, uneducated military doctors

882
00:51:45,280 --> 00:51:49,159
went ahead and followed what they had to do to

883
00:51:49,280 --> 00:51:53,480
please Jag your Hoover. So, in my opinion, every time

884
00:51:53,519 --> 00:51:55,320
I go to Washington, d C. And I don't go

885
00:51:55,360 --> 00:51:59,639
there much anymore, and I see that the LB excuse me,

886
00:51:59,679 --> 00:52:04,960
the Jagger Hoover a federal building where the FBI is,

887
00:52:05,000 --> 00:52:07,360
I want to throw up. I mean, he was one

888
00:52:07,400 --> 00:52:10,440
of the worst people that ever lived because of him

889
00:52:10,440 --> 00:52:13,119
distorting histories with regard to all three of these deaths.

890
00:52:13,119 --> 00:52:15,639
Speaker 2: For sure, Oh absolutely, But okay, I have a couple

891
00:52:15,639 --> 00:52:18,400
more questions about that because nobody ever suspect I mean,

892
00:52:19,000 --> 00:52:22,280
not never. But the suspicion wasn't on the FBI. It

893
00:52:22,280 --> 00:52:23,559
was on the CIA the whole time.

894
00:52:24,920 --> 00:52:27,360
Speaker 3: Well, I wouldn't I wouldn't agree completely with that. I

895
00:52:27,400 --> 00:52:30,320
don't think so, because he really looked at the at

896
00:52:30,360 --> 00:52:34,159
Oswald alone. Yeah, that was his that was his way

897
00:52:34,159 --> 00:52:37,239
of stopping anything that was going on. And so I'm

898
00:52:37,239 --> 00:52:39,119
not so sure. But I'm going to mention this. I

899
00:52:39,159 --> 00:52:40,840
usually mention at the end of the interview, but I'm

900
00:52:40,840 --> 00:52:43,920
mentioning it right now. What happened here and how is

901
00:52:43,960 --> 00:52:47,480
this relevant? All these things happened sixty years ago? Okay,

902
00:52:48,039 --> 00:52:50,400
I'm going to talk about Dorothy's ceremony in New York

903
00:52:50,440 --> 00:52:53,199
City recently that I went to honoring her. But sixty

904
00:52:53,280 --> 00:52:55,320
years ago, So people asked me, although I do hear

905
00:52:55,360 --> 00:52:58,440
from a lot of young people, Okay, why is this relevant?

906
00:52:59,000 --> 00:53:03,920
It's relevant because nobody asked questions back then. We basically

907
00:53:03,960 --> 00:53:06,360
took it as gospel what the government was telling us.

908
00:53:06,639 --> 00:53:09,119
Jaeger Hoover must be telling us the truth about that,

909
00:53:09,159 --> 00:53:13,800
about Dorothy's death, about Robert Kennedy. They didn't ask the questions.

910
00:53:14,280 --> 00:53:16,840
And I say to people, the relevance is for people

911
00:53:16,880 --> 00:53:20,079
who are watching my presentations or read the book. You

912
00:53:20,239 --> 00:53:24,159
have to ask questions these days, especially in this environment. Yeah,

913
00:53:25,039 --> 00:53:27,400
and you can't. If you don't, then you've got nothing

914
00:53:27,440 --> 00:53:29,840
to gripe about. And if you don't vote, you've got

915
00:53:29,840 --> 00:53:33,000
nothing to grip about. And that's the relevance of all

916
00:53:33,039 --> 00:53:36,280
of this, because the only one person that spoke up

917
00:53:36,480 --> 00:53:42,840
about JFK's assassination was Dorothy Kilgallen, and she should have

918
00:53:42,840 --> 00:53:45,679
been at the Warren Commission testifying they wouldn't let her.

919
00:53:46,599 --> 00:53:48,760
There's some other evidence that she knew about that at

920
00:53:48,880 --> 00:53:50,679
least she and she tried to give it to them.

921
00:53:50,679 --> 00:53:53,719
They didn't want it. I've had that happen with authors

922
00:53:53,760 --> 00:53:55,920
of books through the years who want nothing to do

923
00:53:56,320 --> 00:54:00,519
with my research because they are still Oswald alone propent opponents,

924
00:54:00,880 --> 00:54:03,639
and it's unfortunate. And that's what I'm going to talk

925
00:54:03,639 --> 00:54:05,440
about in a little bit. With his task force that

926
00:54:05,559 --> 00:54:08,840
was the convene to look into the assassinations in Dorothy's death,

927
00:54:09,119 --> 00:54:12,280
and the same thing occurred. So I hear what you're

928
00:54:12,280 --> 00:54:15,679
saying about Oswald, I mean about j Edgar Hoover. But

929
00:54:15,760 --> 00:54:18,440
for the most part, he never looked at the mafia

930
00:54:18,559 --> 00:54:21,400
for sure. He never looked at the CIA at that time.

931
00:54:21,960 --> 00:54:24,199
He never looked at the Cubans, he never looked at

932
00:54:24,480 --> 00:54:30,159
anything else, you know, the industrial complex, you know, and

933
00:54:30,199 --> 00:54:34,360
he just wanted to take it was all Oswald alone.

934
00:54:35,760 --> 00:54:37,639
And if you think about it, we look at that

935
00:54:37,800 --> 00:54:41,679
as absolutely ludicrous that he could have set up everything

936
00:54:42,000 --> 00:54:46,119
like this. But back then, hey, the government's telling us

937
00:54:46,159 --> 00:54:49,199
the truth, and so we need to look no further

938
00:54:50,159 --> 00:54:51,079
sad the truth.

939
00:54:51,559 --> 00:54:53,400
Speaker 2: Yeah.

940
00:54:53,440 --> 00:54:56,800
Speaker 3: So with regard to back to Bobby Kennedy's death, there's

941
00:54:56,840 --> 00:55:00,440
no investigation whatsoever. And yet I kept wondering about it.

942
00:55:00,559 --> 00:55:03,599
So I was able then to connect Marcello in with

943
00:55:04,400 --> 00:55:09,159
Sir Hans, Sir Hanuh. And so what I then did

944
00:55:09,159 --> 00:55:12,679
it was a look at what was Robert Kennedy's assessment

945
00:55:12,719 --> 00:55:16,119
of what happened to his father. His father, by the way,

946
00:55:16,199 --> 00:55:18,880
the moment that j Edgar Hoover called him and said,

947
00:55:19,760 --> 00:55:24,039
your brother is dead. The JFK the president, Bobby Kennedy

948
00:55:24,079 --> 00:55:27,599
said to several of his closest associates at the Justice Department,

949
00:55:28,000 --> 00:55:29,840
it's the guy from New Orleans.

950
00:55:30,320 --> 00:55:31,760
Speaker 2: It's knew right away.

951
00:55:32,239 --> 00:55:34,800
Speaker 3: He knew for sure. Of course he did, because he

952
00:55:34,880 --> 00:55:40,039
knew that that that you know, they double crossed the mafia,

953
00:55:40,039 --> 00:55:43,440
including Marcello's Central American and everything. So he knew that.

954
00:55:43,639 --> 00:55:47,679
So Bobby Kennedy Junior, then you know, went along with

955
00:55:47,719 --> 00:55:52,239
that conclusion for years, and then all at once I

956
00:55:52,280 --> 00:55:55,559
saw him on some interviews saying no, no, no, it

957
00:55:55,679 --> 00:55:58,440
was the CIA, and I have all of this evidence

958
00:55:58,480 --> 00:56:02,280
to prove it and everything with this course providing any

959
00:56:02,320 --> 00:56:07,320
of that evidence. Because that was okay. So you know,

960
00:56:07,360 --> 00:56:10,360
that's what happened there with RFK Junior. But what interested

961
00:56:10,400 --> 00:56:13,400
me most was that through the years, I think I

962
00:56:13,440 --> 00:56:17,039
have it right here because I wrote a letter to RFK.

963
00:56:17,320 --> 00:56:19,800
It was delivered to him on Monday. I'll tell you

964
00:56:19,840 --> 00:56:23,639
about that in a minute. Through the years, Robert Kennedy

965
00:56:23,719 --> 00:56:28,400
Junior as said on occasion, let me find it here.

966
00:56:30,960 --> 00:56:33,880
There are too many bullets that were fired. You can't

967
00:56:33,920 --> 00:56:37,239
fire thirteen shots out of an eight shotgun, because Sir

968
00:56:37,280 --> 00:56:39,840
Han did have a gun and shot, but he shot

969
00:56:39,840 --> 00:56:41,719
at the ceiling and so on and so forth. That way,

970
00:56:42,400 --> 00:56:45,159
I spent three hours visiting Sir Han in prison late

971
00:56:45,239 --> 00:56:48,960
last year. This was in twenty seventeen. After researching my

972
00:56:49,039 --> 00:56:52,719
father's assassination, for months. I got to a place where

973
00:56:52,719 --> 00:56:55,679
I had to see Sir Han. I went there because

974
00:56:55,719 --> 00:56:58,239
I was curious and disturbed what I had seen in

975
00:56:58,280 --> 00:57:01,719
the evidence. I've been a strong advocate for the release

976
00:57:01,760 --> 00:57:03,599
of Sir Han b Sir Hans since I learned of

977
00:57:03,639 --> 00:57:07,679
the evidence that wasn't presented at trial. After years of

978
00:57:07,760 --> 00:57:12,039
carol investigation, I arrived at the conviction that the story

979
00:57:12,079 --> 00:57:15,039
of my father's murder is not as cut and dried

980
00:57:15,320 --> 00:57:18,760
as portrayed at trial. And then there's a book written

981
00:57:18,760 --> 00:57:22,440
by Lisa Peace, who is a very almost a confident

982
00:57:22,480 --> 00:57:25,079
of Robert Kennedy Junior. She wrote a book, A Lie

983
00:57:25,119 --> 00:57:29,320
Too Big to Fail about Sir Han visiting Sir Han

984
00:57:29,480 --> 00:57:33,000
or Bobby Kennedy visiting Sir Han in the company of

985
00:57:33,039 --> 00:57:38,360
Sir Han's attorney. Bobby hugged Sir Han and told him

986
00:57:38,360 --> 00:57:41,079
he knew he hadn't killed his father, and then he

987
00:57:41,239 --> 00:57:44,920
considered Sir Han as much a victim as his father.

988
00:57:45,760 --> 00:57:49,599
Bobby told me, the author said, he told me he's

989
00:57:49,599 --> 00:57:52,760
a sweet man. Do you imagine he's a sweet man.

990
00:57:53,400 --> 00:57:56,199
And Bobby took the time to learn the truth and

991
00:57:56,639 --> 00:57:58,639
found what he found out moved him to action and

992
00:57:58,800 --> 00:58:01,960
rightfully so. And one more, I am disturbed that the

993
00:58:02,000 --> 00:58:04,679
wrong person might have been convicted of killing my father.

994
00:58:05,320 --> 00:58:08,199
He was the chief law enforcement officer in this country.

995
00:58:08,719 --> 00:58:11,159
I think it would have disturbed him if somebody was

996
00:58:11,199 --> 00:58:14,599
put in prison for a crime they didn't commit. So

997
00:58:14,679 --> 00:58:18,519
in twenty twenty one, maybe you remember reading this, Robert

998
00:58:18,599 --> 00:58:26,280
Kennedy Junior went to the Parole Board of California. He

999
00:58:27,599 --> 00:58:32,119
tried to persuade them to get a release, a parole

1000
00:58:32,800 --> 00:58:38,000
for a Sir Hansor Han, and that was successful. It

1001
00:58:38,039 --> 00:58:42,639
was announced that Sir hansor Han, after nearly sixty years

1002
00:58:42,679 --> 00:58:45,480
in prison for a crime I don't believe he committed.

1003
00:58:45,480 --> 00:58:47,679
And we'll talk about it a bit more if you want,

1004
00:58:48,480 --> 00:58:52,440
at eighty years old, had served enough time in prison

1005
00:58:52,480 --> 00:58:56,400
and would be released. And then we had our political

1006
00:58:56,480 --> 00:59:00,599
governor Gavin Newsom. He never wanted that to be on

1007
00:59:00,800 --> 00:59:06,079
his resume that he went ahead and released what most

1008
00:59:06,079 --> 00:59:11,039
people believed was Robert Kennedy's assassination and so he revoked

1009
00:59:11,039 --> 00:59:11,719
that parole.

1010
00:59:12,679 --> 00:59:13,840
Speaker 2: Oh wow, I didn't know that.

1011
00:59:14,119 --> 00:59:20,320
Speaker 3: It's stressful. Absolutely, So that's where it stood. And then

1012
00:59:20,440 --> 00:59:23,079
I went ahead and I wrote this book. And the

1013
00:59:23,159 --> 00:59:27,320
more I wrote it the more incensed I became, became

1014
00:59:27,559 --> 00:59:30,599
that he came because, in my opinion, based on all

1015
00:59:30,679 --> 00:59:33,000
of the new evidence, there's new ballistic evidence in there,

1016
00:59:33,280 --> 00:59:37,599
there's John Shear's account, there's all of this other you know,

1017
00:59:37,639 --> 00:59:41,039
he wasn't represented as he should have been. Everything. I

1018
00:59:41,119 --> 00:59:43,760
decided I was going to do something about it. And

1019
00:59:44,320 --> 00:59:48,719
this past Monday, I sent a letter to Robert Kennedy

1020
00:59:48,760 --> 00:59:52,159
Junior in Washington, d C. It was delivered, and I

1021
00:59:52,360 --> 00:59:56,599
asked him to go ahead and look into all the evidence.

1022
00:59:56,639 --> 00:59:58,320
I sent him the letter with all my evidence and

1023
00:59:58,360 --> 01:00:01,559
everything else like that. Pointed him to that, and I said,

1024
01:00:01,599 --> 01:00:04,599
you know, it's time for you to take some action here,

1025
01:00:04,960 --> 01:00:08,119
because I know you believe that sir Han was not

1026
01:00:08,159 --> 01:00:11,760
accountable for your father's death. I hope that you will

1027
01:00:11,760 --> 01:00:14,760
go ahead and you will take to the evidence, and

1028
01:00:14,800 --> 01:00:16,719
you will go to the President of the United States

1029
01:00:17,000 --> 01:00:20,280
and you will ask him to pardon Sir Hans sir Han,

1030
01:00:20,800 --> 01:00:23,199
or in the least at least to give him a

1031
01:00:23,239 --> 01:00:27,239
new trial, releasing whatever, commute the sentence, whatever it is.

1032
01:00:27,280 --> 01:00:29,800
That way, now, I knew that was a long shot,

1033
01:00:29,880 --> 01:00:32,159
and I know it's a long shot. Yeah, because ripa

1034
01:00:32,320 --> 01:00:34,400
Junior's got a lot of other problems to deal with

1035
01:00:35,079 --> 01:00:37,599
as a member of the cabinet, but you got to

1036
01:00:37,639 --> 01:00:40,360
try things at times. And I'm not violate, and I

1037
01:00:40,440 --> 01:00:42,400
believe that I wanted to do that. Now somebody has

1038
01:00:42,400 --> 01:00:45,159
pointed out and this is the easy way out, in

1039
01:00:45,159 --> 01:00:48,559
my opinion, the President of the United States cannot parole

1040
01:00:49,079 --> 01:00:53,039
I cannot pardon Sir hansor Han because Sir Hans Sir

1041
01:00:53,079 --> 01:00:58,800
Han did not commit a federal crime. Well listen, wait

1042
01:00:58,840 --> 01:01:03,079
a second. United States has been pardoning everybody but his

1043
01:01:03,239 --> 01:01:07,679
sister for anything that he wants to pardon him for

1044
01:01:08,239 --> 01:01:11,320
that the people who were involved in the January sixth,

1045
01:01:11,360 --> 01:01:14,039
the you know, assault on the cap it doesn't matter.

1046
01:01:14,639 --> 01:01:17,679
So if Robert Kennedy goes to the President of the

1047
01:01:17,760 --> 01:01:19,320
United States and I don't know if I'll hear from

1048
01:01:19,360 --> 01:01:20,800
him or now, I hope I will, but I'll keep

1049
01:01:20,840 --> 01:01:21,280
pressing it.

1050
01:01:21,360 --> 01:01:21,960
Speaker 2: Yeah, that'll be cool.

1051
01:01:22,000 --> 01:01:23,519
Speaker 3: I've got some friends who are going to try to

1052
01:01:23,559 --> 01:01:25,280
do that too. And he goes to President of the

1053
01:01:25,320 --> 01:01:27,920
United States and says, I want this man parole. It

1054
01:01:27,960 --> 01:01:30,800
will happen in an instant. M hm. So that's what

1055
01:01:30,840 --> 01:01:33,800
I'm trying to do. I don't know if it'll be successful.

1056
01:01:34,239 --> 01:01:36,199
Speaker 2: So I have a question about Star and Strum, So

1057
01:01:36,320 --> 01:01:39,719
like why would he be the patsy? Like did the

1058
01:01:39,760 --> 01:01:42,239
mafia end up like taking care of his debts? Did

1059
01:01:42,239 --> 01:01:44,280
they take care of his family? Like why would he

1060
01:01:44,440 --> 01:01:45,960
give up the rest of his life to be in

1061
01:01:46,000 --> 01:01:47,639
prison to be the patsy for this?

1062
01:01:47,960 --> 01:01:52,519
Speaker 3: If like for what excellent questions? You're very very perceptive.

1063
01:01:52,880 --> 01:01:54,440
I think two or three things. One they could have

1064
01:01:54,440 --> 01:01:58,719
threatened him, for sure, okay. Second, they could give him money.

1065
01:01:58,480 --> 01:02:01,039
Speaker 2: Which is that way That wouldn't make any sense.

1066
01:02:02,039 --> 01:02:04,920
Speaker 3: It was the gambling, the gambling debts, because you go

1067
01:02:05,000 --> 01:02:07,239
back to Ron Pataki, who I didn't mention, I guess

1068
01:02:07,639 --> 01:02:10,719
was involved in Dorothy's desk. He had gambling debts as well. See,

1069
01:02:10,719 --> 01:02:15,639
these people are perfect subjects to be And also look

1070
01:02:15,679 --> 01:02:20,000
at what John Sheer said, easily manipulated. They also knew

1071
01:02:20,000 --> 01:02:23,119
that he didn't care for Bobby Kennedy because of some

1072
01:02:23,159 --> 01:02:26,440
things with Israel and stuff. So he's in a situation

1073
01:02:26,599 --> 01:02:31,199
where I think he was easily recruited, I think is

1074
01:02:31,239 --> 01:02:36,320
the word. And unfortunately it just swelled and I think

1075
01:02:36,360 --> 01:02:37,880
they told him that you know, you can go to

1076
01:02:37,920 --> 01:02:40,159
the hotel. Oh, oh, one more thing, guysch Mark, don't

1077
01:02:40,239 --> 01:02:43,119
leave this out. This is so important. Sorry, and then

1078
01:02:43,159 --> 01:02:45,360
I'll get back to your question or tell me if

1079
01:02:45,360 --> 01:02:50,320
I haven't answered it. Mickey Cohen, Yeah, Marcelo's buddy in

1080
01:02:50,400 --> 01:02:53,920
Los Angeles. I found a book he wrote and I

1081
01:02:54,079 --> 01:02:58,559
corroborated with other evidence. He ended up handling all the

1082
01:02:58,599 --> 01:03:04,880
gambling in Los Angeles, including at the Ambassador Hotel where

1083
01:03:04,880 --> 01:03:07,800
Bobby Kennedy was shot. And he says in the book,

1084
01:03:07,840 --> 01:03:10,239
I got to know how everything worked at the hotel,

1085
01:03:10,360 --> 01:03:12,559
where things were and so on and so forth. And

1086
01:03:12,639 --> 01:03:15,159
I just found I don't think I have the document.

1087
01:03:15,199 --> 01:03:18,760
I just found an FBI document that was exposed by

1088
01:03:18,800 --> 01:03:21,960
the New York Times in nineteen sixty five where an

1089
01:03:22,039 --> 01:03:25,320
FBI agent talked about the fact there are many holes

1090
01:03:25,320 --> 01:03:29,639
in the Sir Hans sir Han case. We should have

1091
01:03:29,719 --> 01:03:31,599
looked more into it, and so on and so forth.

1092
01:03:31,639 --> 01:03:33,400
And one of the things he said is we should

1093
01:03:33,480 --> 01:03:37,679
have looked into Mickey Cohen Cohen knowing exactly where Robert

1094
01:03:37,719 --> 01:03:41,679
Kennedy would be when he was shot after he made

1095
01:03:41,719 --> 01:03:45,480
his speech, and that why was Sir Hans sir Han

1096
01:03:45,920 --> 01:03:49,119
in the kitchen at that point, it looks like he

1097
01:03:49,199 --> 01:03:52,760
was told to be there. So all of that fits together.

1098
01:03:52,840 --> 01:03:56,000
You see in the ability to go ahead if you

1099
01:03:56,039 --> 01:04:00,360
look at these three desks in context of each other. Yeah,

1100
01:04:00,360 --> 01:04:03,039
And I just want to unless did that answer your question?

1101
01:04:03,800 --> 01:04:05,480
Speaker 2: I think that I kind of got the answer. I

1102
01:04:05,480 --> 01:04:08,119
think that what makes the most sense to me in

1103
01:04:08,119 --> 01:04:11,320
my head is that he would They would either be like, Okay,

1104
01:04:11,360 --> 01:04:13,400
you have all these gambling debts. You can either die

1105
01:04:13,679 --> 01:04:16,559
or you can just be a passy for us and

1106
01:04:16,760 --> 01:04:19,360
go to prison. Like that makes sense.

1107
01:04:19,400 --> 01:04:21,880
Speaker 3: And remember the two hoodlums that are with him when

1108
01:04:21,920 --> 01:04:25,880
he's going to Hollywood Park. You know, I think it

1109
01:04:25,880 --> 01:04:29,280
may have been threats to him or whatever. But Dorothy

1110
01:04:29,360 --> 01:04:33,400
Killgallen is the lynch pin to the three deaths. She's

1111
01:04:33,400 --> 01:04:36,880
in the middle, okay and sixty five and everything. And

1112
01:04:36,920 --> 01:04:39,159
I have fought to get an investigation of her death

1113
01:04:39,239 --> 01:04:43,480
for several years. I've come really close with the district.

1114
01:04:43,519 --> 01:04:46,760
At first the district previous district attorney in New York City,

1115
01:04:46,840 --> 01:04:48,840
he was going to do it, and then I went

1116
01:04:48,880 --> 01:04:53,119
to I met with him, I met with the Chief

1117
01:04:53,119 --> 01:04:56,199
of police in New York City, shook my hand. We're

1118
01:04:56,199 --> 01:04:58,840
going to do it. They never did. Of course, I

1119
01:04:58,880 --> 01:05:02,519
will keep trying to get her an investigation. But she

1120
01:05:02,800 --> 01:05:05,840
is the lynch pin between all of this and Dorothy,

1121
01:05:05,880 --> 01:05:09,480
as I said, when she died, almost disappeared from the

1122
01:05:09,480 --> 01:05:11,360
face of the earth. And I'm very proud of the

1123
01:05:11,400 --> 01:05:13,119
fact that through my books, the best seller of The

1124
01:05:13,159 --> 01:05:16,920
Reporter Who Knew Too Much, Denialogistice, the other books, that

1125
01:05:16,960 --> 01:05:18,960
she kind of came back to life and people got

1126
01:05:18,960 --> 01:05:21,159
to know about her more. Yes, in the fact a

1127
01:05:21,199 --> 01:05:24,480
point where now, what's my line? Reruns eighty of them

1128
01:05:24,559 --> 01:05:28,119
or up on a prime video. She's gotten a lot

1129
01:05:28,119 --> 01:05:34,840
of her exposure back. But about a month ago, a

1130
01:05:34,880 --> 01:05:36,880
city councilman in New York City who had tried to

1131
01:05:37,039 --> 01:05:39,400
help me get an investigation of Dorothy's death, sent me

1132
01:05:39,400 --> 01:05:42,119
a text, mark, you need to come back to New

1133
01:05:42,199 --> 01:05:46,480
York City on November eighth, the sixtieth anniversary of Dorothy's death,

1134
01:05:47,159 --> 01:05:50,079
because we are going to co name a street after

1135
01:05:50,159 --> 01:05:53,960
Dorothy Killgallant. Oh that's nice, and I said, that is

1136
01:05:54,000 --> 01:05:57,039
an incredible tribute. Yeah, probably started crying at that point.

1137
01:05:57,079 --> 01:06:00,719
I was so happy. So that is what happened, And

1138
01:06:00,760 --> 01:06:03,159
this is the flyer that they sent out. But I'll

1139
01:06:03,159 --> 01:06:06,159
read from it, but this is at East sixty eighth

1140
01:06:06,199 --> 01:06:10,719
Street and Park Avenue. Dorothy lived on sixty eighth Street.

1141
01:06:10,760 --> 01:06:12,320
I stood right in front of the building where she

1142
01:06:12,400 --> 01:06:15,480
lift forty five East sixty eighth Street on November eighth

1143
01:06:15,480 --> 01:06:18,039
of this year, and I gave a talk and this

1144
01:06:18,119 --> 01:06:20,039
the councilman gave a talk, and a couple people who

1145
01:06:20,079 --> 01:06:23,559
knew Dorothy gave a talk, and basically what they said

1146
01:06:23,599 --> 01:06:26,159
about here her is join us as we honor the

1147
01:06:26,199 --> 01:06:31,320
extraordinary legacy of Dorothy Kilgallen, pioneering journalist, author, and fearless

1148
01:06:31,400 --> 01:06:35,079
voice for the truth. Dorothy's groundbreaking career in print and

1149
01:06:35,119 --> 01:06:38,760
television broke barriers for women in media, and her commitment

1150
01:06:38,800 --> 01:06:44,159
to investigating reporting made a lasting impact on American journalism.

1151
01:06:45,000 --> 01:06:47,599
And then they had a program that they gave out

1152
01:06:48,119 --> 01:06:50,400
which talked about the fact that she may have been

1153
01:06:50,440 --> 01:06:56,679
the first journalist to ever combine radio, television and print,

1154
01:06:58,000 --> 01:07:02,760
which the predecet to what we have now. Yeah, and

1155
01:07:03,280 --> 01:07:06,800
all of that. So we had that ceremony that the

1156
01:07:06,840 --> 01:07:09,039
people who read the book that we'll see that in there.

1157
01:07:09,239 --> 01:07:11,880
They can go to YouTube. There's some video of that happening.

1158
01:07:12,880 --> 01:07:15,599
But it was an incredible, you know, a moment for

1159
01:07:15,719 --> 01:07:19,119
me and for Dorothy, who I believe was smiling that

1160
01:07:19,280 --> 01:07:25,840
day because it validated this woman who went ahead and

1161
01:07:26,239 --> 01:07:29,599
in fact gave up her life for trying to solve

1162
01:07:29,599 --> 01:07:33,480
the JFK assassination for sure. And when people ask me

1163
01:07:33,840 --> 01:07:37,440
why is she the one that should be most read about,

1164
01:07:37,880 --> 01:07:41,440
listened to and everything, I say, well, she's the most credible,

1165
01:07:41,440 --> 01:07:44,880
and you know why her enemies killed her.

1166
01:07:45,960 --> 01:07:47,440
Speaker 2: That's how you know she's on the right track.

1167
01:07:47,760 --> 01:07:51,800
Speaker 3: That's exactly so. That was Dorothy. So I hope that

1168
01:07:51,840 --> 01:07:54,159
if you get a chance. I know you're very very busy,

1169
01:07:54,159 --> 01:07:56,039
but look at that part at least to the book

1170
01:07:56,039 --> 01:08:01,119
about Dorothy, because it's very inspiring. Yeah, and uh, you

1171
01:08:01,119 --> 01:08:04,400
know she she just would not say no early on

1172
01:08:04,480 --> 01:08:05,920
in her life and then all the way to the

1173
01:08:06,000 --> 01:08:06,599
day she died.

1174
01:08:07,239 --> 01:08:11,480
Speaker 2: That's amazing. That's yeah, that's it. I feel like I'm

1175
01:08:11,559 --> 01:08:14,039
very inspired by her. I don't know, I know only

1176
01:08:14,079 --> 01:08:15,480
her story from what you've told me, but I really

1177
01:08:15,519 --> 01:08:17,760
want to look into her more. And I actually now

1178
01:08:17,760 --> 01:08:19,159
I want to do a whole episode on her, just

1179
01:08:19,199 --> 01:08:21,640
because I find that I learned best when I do

1180
01:08:21,720 --> 01:08:24,479
a full episode on somebody because I've done all the

1181
01:08:24,520 --> 01:08:27,600
research into it now, So yeah, I'm gonna add her

1182
01:08:27,600 --> 01:08:28,399
to my list for sure.

1183
01:08:28,680 --> 01:08:31,640
Speaker 3: You get a chance, go to the kill Scoop the

1184
01:08:31,680 --> 01:08:34,920
Dorothy kilgallonstory dot org. That link is in the in

1185
01:08:34,960 --> 01:08:37,399
the book with the Dorothy kilgallonstory dot org. It's all

1186
01:08:37,439 --> 01:08:38,079
about Dorothy.

1187
01:08:38,319 --> 01:08:39,720
Speaker 2: And I'll link that in the show notes too. That

1188
01:08:39,760 --> 01:08:42,159
way anybody that's listening can easily clue on that. And

1189
01:08:42,199 --> 01:08:45,359
I'll link the Markshaw books dot com as well.

1190
01:08:45,840 --> 01:08:49,159
Speaker 3: That would be fine. I'd appreciate it very much. But yeah,

1191
01:08:49,319 --> 01:08:51,800
I think once you read some of the material and

1192
01:08:51,800 --> 01:08:55,720
and you see the videos with Dorothy and all of that,

1193
01:08:56,520 --> 01:08:58,560
you know, like you, I'm going to say this because

1194
01:08:58,600 --> 01:09:00,520
I did look up a little bit about you. You're

1195
01:09:00,560 --> 01:09:03,239
a woman of the truth and that's exactly what she was.

1196
01:09:03,960 --> 01:09:05,840
And I don't know if you feel like at times

1197
01:09:05,840 --> 01:09:08,840
that you put yourself at risk by some of the

1198
01:09:08,880 --> 01:09:12,840
people who watch your broadcasts. But that's part of the deal,

1199
01:09:13,039 --> 01:09:16,039
you know, That's what I do. I get terrible emails

1200
01:09:16,039 --> 01:09:19,279
from people about leave the Kennedys alone, Mark you know,

1201
01:09:20,720 --> 01:09:22,960
and yet that's part of the job, as we know. Right.

1202
01:09:23,279 --> 01:09:26,359
Speaker 2: Absolutely, one I'm sure is I get lots of things,

1203
01:09:26,560 --> 01:09:29,239
I just don't read them, like people leave nasty comments

1204
01:09:29,319 --> 01:09:33,359
or reviews, and I just don't read all that good.

1205
01:09:33,479 --> 01:09:34,640
Speaker 3: Good Mark.

1206
01:09:34,640 --> 01:09:36,640
Speaker 2: Do you have anything else that you feel like I

1207
01:09:36,640 --> 01:09:38,920
didn't ask that, I should have asked about the Kennedy's,

1208
01:09:38,920 --> 01:09:40,880
about Dorothy, about anything.

1209
01:09:42,239 --> 01:09:45,479
Speaker 3: No. I'm very impressed by you. I really am. Thank you,

1210
01:09:45,600 --> 01:09:48,199
I really am. And I'll tell the people at the

1211
01:09:48,239 --> 01:09:50,239
PR firm. And in fact, I don't know if you

1212
01:09:50,279 --> 01:09:52,920
have a boss, but if you do, I like to

1213
01:09:52,960 --> 01:09:57,840
write letters to people thanking them for what a professional

1214
01:09:57,920 --> 01:10:00,000
job you did and how great you were with your

1215
01:10:00,119 --> 01:10:02,000
questions and all of that. But apparently you must be

1216
01:10:02,000 --> 01:10:02,640
your own boss.

1217
01:10:02,680 --> 01:10:03,479
Speaker 2: I am my own boss.

1218
01:10:04,920 --> 01:10:06,560
Speaker 3: Rush. I am by you, so thank you.

1219
01:10:06,760 --> 01:10:09,560
Speaker 2: I appreciate that. And until next week, my friends, Stay

1220
01:10:09,560 --> 01:10:13,359
Skeptical and we will see you all then. Hey, friends.

1221
01:10:13,359 --> 01:10:16,079
The rabbit Hole is an independent podcast written, hosted, and

1222
01:10:16,079 --> 01:10:18,880
produced by me Danny Mercy. Special thanks to Lindsey for

1223
01:10:18,920 --> 01:10:21,359
research and writing. If you love the podcast, please leave

1224
01:10:21,439 --> 01:10:23,640
us a five star rating and review wherever you're listening.

1225
01:10:23,840 --> 01:10:26,800
Follow us on social media at rabbit dot Hole podcast

1226
01:10:26,880 --> 01:10:30,359
and visit our website at stayskeptical dot com for everything else,