WEBVTT 1 00:00:00.120 --> 00:00:04.440 Oh, Hi, it's the French fry under your seat. You 2 00:00:04.480 --> 00:00:07.759 won't find for another four months. Ali ward, and here 3 00:00:07.759 --> 00:00:12.400 we are. The trashiest episode of ologies ever made. This 4 00:00:12.480 --> 00:00:15.759 is another one of those years in the making interviews. 5 00:00:16.120 --> 00:00:18.120 You're going to talk about it forever. So I came 6 00:00:18.120 --> 00:00:21.280 across this person's name in relation to garbage, and I thought, 7 00:00:21.559 --> 00:00:24.600 I must meet this garbage person. They seem great. They 8 00:00:24.600 --> 00:00:28.480 are a clinical professor at New York University's Liberal Studies Department. 9 00:00:28.760 --> 00:00:31.839 They teach on the topic of garbage. They have worked 10 00:00:31.920 --> 00:00:35.920 intimately with garbage. They did a TED talk about garbage. 11 00:00:36.039 --> 00:00:39.960 They have three anthropology degrees from Columbia University and an 12 00:00:40.079 --> 00:00:43.840 undergrad and anthropology from New York University, and even authored 13 00:00:43.960 --> 00:00:47.159 the book Picking Up on the Streets and Behind the 14 00:00:47.240 --> 00:00:50.640 Trucks with the sanitation workers of New York City the 15 00:00:50.719 --> 00:00:54.920 perfect fit. Rubbish research is their life's work. So on 16 00:00:55.000 --> 00:00:59.479 a crisp fall day in Manhattan, I navigated the cobblestones 17 00:00:59.479 --> 00:01:02.479 to accompany room on the NYU City campus, and I 18 00:01:02.759 --> 00:01:05.680 routinely test for COVID for shoots and stuff. I had 19 00:01:05.719 --> 00:01:08.000 tested negative the day before, but I had been in 20 00:01:08.079 --> 00:01:10.640 an indoor gallery event that week, so I wanted to 21 00:01:10.719 --> 00:01:13.359 keep my mask on for our interview just in case, 22 00:01:13.599 --> 00:01:16.200 because COVID is awful. But masks are easy. 23 00:01:16.439 --> 00:01:16.599 Oh. 24 00:01:16.799 --> 00:01:18.840 One other easy thing to do, if you don't mind, 25 00:01:18.959 --> 00:01:22.519 is maybe tell a friend about this podcast ologies, or 26 00:01:22.640 --> 00:01:25.920 you can support by becoming a patron for a dollar 27 00:01:25.959 --> 00:01:30.359 a month at patreon dot com slash ologies. Also, rating, subscribing, 28 00:01:30.439 --> 00:01:32.799 and leaving reviews helps the show so much, and I 29 00:01:32.840 --> 00:01:35.680 read every single one, such as this very recent one 30 00:01:35.760 --> 00:01:39.480 left by SJC mud Hut, who said Ali is my 31 00:01:39.560 --> 00:01:42.480 new best friend, and I really can't help believing she 32 00:01:42.560 --> 00:01:48.079 makes this podcast for me and me alone. SJC mud Hut, 33 00:01:48.560 --> 00:01:52.000 It is all for you. Don't tell everyone else, Okay. 34 00:01:52.040 --> 00:01:54.519 On the episode, your brain is about to become a 35 00:01:54.599 --> 00:01:58.840 dumpster of facts about what people throw away, where garbage goes, 36 00:01:59.200 --> 00:02:03.719 who takes it. They're finding treasure in landfills, when an 37 00:02:03.760 --> 00:02:09.319 item becomes garbage, what plastic you can actually recycle, burning trash, 38 00:02:09.599 --> 00:02:17.039 building on trash, cherishing trash, and more with professor, scholar, author, garbologist, 39 00:02:17.319 --> 00:02:21.840 discard anthropologist, one of the two. Doctor Robin Nakel. 40 00:02:40.960 --> 00:02:43.400 My name is Robin Nagel, and my pronouns are any 41 00:02:43.639 --> 00:02:45.080 all her. 42 00:02:45.080 --> 00:02:47.319 Most commonly used are she her, So we'll go with 43 00:02:47.400 --> 00:02:52.680 that the title of this episode, that's more ambiguous. But 44 00:02:52.759 --> 00:02:58.159 garbageology not your favorite word, which I'm like, let's hear it, 45 00:02:58.240 --> 00:03:00.719 because it is one of those words that it it 46 00:03:00.919 --> 00:03:05.159 sounds like a company that makes garbage cans. 47 00:03:05.759 --> 00:03:10.639 Okay, I'll accept that. But as a description of what 48 00:03:11.120 --> 00:03:14.800 we could call a field of concern, of study of crisis, 49 00:03:14.840 --> 00:03:20.919 of environmental profound environmental relevance, it's too narrow because garbage 50 00:03:21.000 --> 00:03:23.840 is only one way of thinking about waste. 51 00:03:24.879 --> 00:03:27.919 But is there a particular way that you describe your 52 00:03:28.360 --> 00:03:29.639 niche in anthropology. 53 00:03:30.360 --> 00:03:33.280 Yeah, so it's kind of under the umbrella of what 54 00:03:33.319 --> 00:03:37.159 we called applied anthropology. My goal in working with New 55 00:03:37.240 --> 00:03:40.680 York City Department of Sanitation is twofold. One is to 56 00:03:40.719 --> 00:03:43.479 help the public understand what it is to be a 57 00:03:43.520 --> 00:03:47.280 sanitation worker in the city for the city and why 58 00:03:47.319 --> 00:03:49.840 should you care to know that? And the other is 59 00:03:49.879 --> 00:03:55.439 to help the workforce recognize ways in which they are 60 00:03:55.560 --> 00:04:00.120 valuable on this meta level that sometimes they don't even 61 00:04:00.199 --> 00:04:06.680 necessarily acknowledge. I have said many times the Sanitation Department 62 00:04:06.759 --> 00:04:09.680 is the most important workforce in the City of New York, 63 00:04:10.319 --> 00:04:13.680 and I get pushed back, even from people on the job. 64 00:04:14.319 --> 00:04:16.800 And I like it when I get pushed back from them, 65 00:04:16.839 --> 00:04:19.040 in particular because then I launch into my whole rap 66 00:04:19.079 --> 00:04:22.439 about public health and the diseases that would make COVID 67 00:04:22.480 --> 00:04:27.439 look like a sneeze if garbage were not managed more 68 00:04:27.560 --> 00:04:30.240 or less very well. And I'm not saying it's perfect. 69 00:04:30.600 --> 00:04:33.800 We certainly had huge problems during the pandemic because of 70 00:04:33.800 --> 00:04:37.560 budget cutbacks and how the operational side of the job 71 00:04:37.680 --> 00:04:40.720 was thrown into not chaos, but how do you prevent 72 00:04:40.759 --> 00:04:44.519 it from being thrown into chaos? Right, So those realities 73 00:04:44.560 --> 00:04:47.639 are always out there. But if sanitation isn't on the 74 00:04:47.639 --> 00:04:50.639 street every day, this is not the New York, is 75 00:04:50.680 --> 00:04:53.279 not the glittering global capital we imagine it to be. 76 00:04:54.759 --> 00:04:56.319 And you know, I was thinking about it on the 77 00:04:56.319 --> 00:05:01.160 way over here too, the difference between focusing on the garbage, 78 00:05:01.800 --> 00:05:06.519 which is dirty, which is something we all fear, versus 79 00:05:06.560 --> 00:05:11.240 the sanitation, which is the solution. So do you find 80 00:05:11.279 --> 00:05:15.040 that the way that we talk about garbage versus sanitation 81 00:05:15.639 --> 00:05:17.800 really depends on if we're focusing on like the good 82 00:05:17.839 --> 00:05:18.319 or the bad. 83 00:05:19.240 --> 00:05:20.879 I didn't. I never thought of it that way. I 84 00:05:20.959 --> 00:05:24.319 like that distinction, and I think you've pinpointed a key 85 00:05:24.360 --> 00:05:29.639 element here, which is garbage equates with fear for fascinating reasons. Yeah, 86 00:05:29.680 --> 00:05:33.560 but sanitation. One of the challenges with the word is 87 00:05:33.560 --> 00:05:36.639 that we could use sanitation to only be talking about. 88 00:05:36.399 --> 00:05:37.279 Things like sewage. 89 00:05:37.759 --> 00:05:41.519 Right, So when we say sanitation, do we mean garbage, 90 00:05:41.519 --> 00:05:43.639 do we mean other forms of waste? Do we mean 91 00:05:44.040 --> 00:05:47.680 the kinds of protocols that are in place in medical 92 00:05:47.680 --> 00:05:52.639 facilities and healthcare? All of that has a sanitation connotation 93 00:05:52.839 --> 00:05:57.199 or context. So same with the word garbage, though, like 94 00:05:57.199 --> 00:06:01.120 what exactly do we mean by that word? Because it's 95 00:06:01.160 --> 00:06:06.600 a multifaceted category of material, and depending on how it's defined, 96 00:06:06.920 --> 00:06:11.759 that dictates I'll say, what happens next, and where it goes, 97 00:06:11.879 --> 00:06:14.959 and what workforce is responsible for it? And what harms 98 00:06:15.000 --> 00:06:17.560 does it cause or do we prevent it from causing? 99 00:06:17.639 --> 00:06:21.240 All by the definition, So, to say something is discarded 100 00:06:21.519 --> 00:06:25.120 implies that it's useless to the person discarding it, but 101 00:06:25.360 --> 00:06:30.839 not inherently valueless. But garbage can mean food, waste or 102 00:06:31.000 --> 00:06:35.759 useless stuff. But does even waste have an inherent value? 103 00:06:35.920 --> 00:06:36.800 We shall discuss. 104 00:06:37.160 --> 00:06:43.040 It also allows for thinking about forms of land categories 105 00:06:43.079 --> 00:06:46.399 of people ways of using time. Do we waste time? 106 00:06:46.519 --> 00:06:50.160 Do we save time? Are we discarding time? Like? It's 107 00:06:50.279 --> 00:06:53.639 just far more It's a far broader and thus perhaps 108 00:06:53.720 --> 00:06:58.600 more exciting way to think about both the problem, the analysis, 109 00:06:58.639 --> 00:06:59.720 and then some of the potential. 110 00:07:00.639 --> 00:07:02.959 How long have you been in this field and why, 111 00:07:03.000 --> 00:07:06.600 of all the fields of anthropology, did you be lying 112 00:07:06.639 --> 00:07:08.480 for this one or did you ping pong around a bit? 113 00:07:08.800 --> 00:07:12.079 Well, my earlier work in anthropology was about religion, but 114 00:07:12.199 --> 00:07:17.000 I've always been intrigued by the problem of garbage in 115 00:07:17.000 --> 00:07:20.120 particular and waste in general, And when I had a 116 00:07:20.279 --> 00:07:22.639 chance to teach about it, I came up with a 117 00:07:22.680 --> 00:07:25.839 syllabus that became a class called Garbage in Gotham, the 118 00:07:25.879 --> 00:07:30.160 Anthropology of Trash That's amazing. And one of the speakers 119 00:07:30.279 --> 00:07:32.519 was a sanitation worker I had met just on the 120 00:07:32.560 --> 00:07:37.120 street who took great care when recycling rolled out in 121 00:07:37.120 --> 00:07:41.160 New York City to customize the chrome on his truck 122 00:07:41.360 --> 00:07:44.839 and make it look like such a clean vehicle that 123 00:07:44.920 --> 00:07:48.120 you could not imagine putting garbage in the back, because 124 00:07:48.120 --> 00:07:50.680 people were still throwing garbage in the back of his 125 00:07:50.720 --> 00:07:53.360 truck when it was supposed to be just recyclables. And 126 00:07:53.399 --> 00:07:56.800 it really pissed him off. So he decided to address 127 00:07:56.800 --> 00:07:58.879 this himself, and it got him a lot of really 128 00:07:58.879 --> 00:08:01.480 good media. He was a guest speaker in my class, 129 00:08:01.759 --> 00:08:04.560 which was wonderful. But the more I learned about the job, 130 00:08:04.639 --> 00:08:08.240 the more I realized, especially as an anthropologist, you can't 131 00:08:08.439 --> 00:08:13.199 just hear stories and then draw conclusions about what is 132 00:08:13.279 --> 00:08:17.480 essentially a subculture, right it is its own world. So 133 00:08:17.519 --> 00:08:20.160 then I realized I had to do field work in 134 00:08:20.199 --> 00:08:26.480 person participant observation, the classic anthropology methodology. And then I realized, 135 00:08:26.519 --> 00:08:30.879 no matter how detailed that work was, I was not 136 00:08:31.040 --> 00:08:34.360 responsible for or even legally allowed to drive a truck. 137 00:08:34.679 --> 00:08:38.320 I wasn't on the job. If I said I'd be 138 00:08:38.360 --> 00:08:40.240 at a given garage on a given morning, and I 139 00:08:40.320 --> 00:08:42.519 woke up that morning, I'm like, yeah, I don't feel 140 00:08:42.559 --> 00:08:45.200 like it, which I will admit once in a while 141 00:08:45.240 --> 00:08:48.200 that happens. My bad. But once in a while happened, well, 142 00:08:48.360 --> 00:08:50.320 no consequence to me except that I now have a 143 00:08:50.360 --> 00:08:54.919 reputation as being flaky. But there's no no hammer falls. 144 00:08:55.039 --> 00:08:58.000 But if I'm on the job, I have a legal 145 00:08:58.039 --> 00:09:02.039 obligation to be in that girl for roll call. The 146 00:09:02.080 --> 00:09:04.159 city has a legal obligation to make sure I am 147 00:09:04.240 --> 00:09:07.919 qualified to drive the truck, to operate the broom, those 148 00:09:08.039 --> 00:09:13.200 kinds of far more detailed trainings and relationships. That's what 149 00:09:13.240 --> 00:09:15.799 I needed to do. So I went through the whole process. 150 00:09:15.799 --> 00:09:18.759 I took the test, I got hired. It took about 151 00:09:18.759 --> 00:09:22.120 a year from taking the test to actually getting hired, 152 00:09:22.240 --> 00:09:26.000 because it's a very long, slow, tedious process, in part 153 00:09:26.000 --> 00:09:29.000 because the City of New York must make sure, by 154 00:09:29.039 --> 00:09:33.360 its own metrics, that you, the individual, are qualified and 155 00:09:33.519 --> 00:09:35.639 capable to do the job they're hiring you to do. 156 00:09:36.840 --> 00:09:40.559 As we recorded this in Manhattan's Greta Trillage, trucks of 157 00:09:40.600 --> 00:09:44.720 all kinds, garbage and delivery rumbled outside. So just enjoy 158 00:09:44.759 --> 00:09:45.720 the New York ambiance. 159 00:09:46.120 --> 00:09:50.240 It's been a puzzle and a kind of an obsession 160 00:09:50.240 --> 00:09:52.039 of mine for as long as I can remember. 161 00:09:52.600 --> 00:09:56.679 Have you, before you got the job to do the research, 162 00:09:56.759 --> 00:09:58.840 have you ever driven anything bigger than like a U 163 00:09:58.840 --> 00:09:59.440 haul before? 164 00:10:00.120 --> 00:10:03.440 My high school sweetheart, his dad owned a moving company, 165 00:10:04.080 --> 00:10:06.519 and so he taught me how to drive a double 166 00:10:06.519 --> 00:10:09.120 clutch mac. Oh my god. Now, but this was only 167 00:10:09.159 --> 00:10:12.759 the cab. I never had a trailer behind, but it 168 00:10:12.840 --> 00:10:15.559 was it was a blast. And he also taught me 169 00:10:15.600 --> 00:10:19.039 how to the beginnings of how to operate a bulldozer, 170 00:10:19.519 --> 00:10:21.200 which is not the same as an FBL a front 171 00:10:21.279 --> 00:10:24.639 end loader. Like each of these pieces of equipment requires 172 00:10:24.799 --> 00:10:28.720 specific skill and time and forms of knowledge that don't 173 00:10:29.399 --> 00:10:33.200 we don't acknowledge the expertise that is required to do 174 00:10:33.320 --> 00:10:36.159 those particular kinds of jobs really well. Like you can 175 00:10:36.240 --> 00:10:39.639 use a bulldozer to gouge them out of a landscape 176 00:10:39.639 --> 00:10:42.600 when you meant to have a nice smooth surface, right, 177 00:10:42.679 --> 00:10:45.279 And it's same with driving a Mac truck, which is 178 00:10:45.320 --> 00:10:47.039 why I'm glad we didn't have a trailer. When he's 179 00:10:47.039 --> 00:10:49.320 teaching me how to do the double clutch thing. So 180 00:10:49.480 --> 00:10:53.200 cool that Mac truck. So that was And then most 181 00:10:53.240 --> 00:10:56.559 of the cabs for sanitation trucks are also Mac, but 182 00:10:56.559 --> 00:10:59.639 they're all automatic transmission. Now there are no more standard 183 00:10:59.679 --> 00:11:02.480 transit mission trucks, which probably just as well, but not 184 00:11:02.519 --> 00:11:04.639 great for fuel efficiency. But that's a whole other thing. 185 00:11:05.200 --> 00:11:11.320 But before you are able to drive a garbage truck, 186 00:11:11.480 --> 00:11:13.679 do they let you do donuts in like a church 187 00:11:13.759 --> 00:11:16.559 parking lot? Like when you're sixteen and you gotta figure 188 00:11:16.600 --> 00:11:19.039 out how to book and drive a car, So. 189 00:11:20.600 --> 00:11:27.279 No short answer, longer answer. When I took the test 190 00:11:27.360 --> 00:11:31.720 for the permit for my commercial Driver's license, I already 191 00:11:31.799 --> 00:11:34.799 had a regular driver's license because I didn't grow up 192 00:11:34.840 --> 00:11:38.320 in New York City, so we actually did donuts on 193 00:11:38.440 --> 00:11:41.879 frozen parking lots in high school in the wee hours 194 00:11:41.879 --> 00:11:44.519 of the morning with no grown ups around, being a 195 00:11:44.600 --> 00:11:49.639 little bad, misbehaving children. So when I took the CDL 196 00:11:49.879 --> 00:11:53.639 and went through the training that sanitation offers, which is 197 00:11:54.200 --> 00:11:57.039 very thorough and meticulous, and then the road test and 198 00:11:57.080 --> 00:12:00.240 all of that, I was very nervous. But when I 199 00:12:00.360 --> 00:12:02.519 arrived for that first day of class, I'm sitting next 200 00:12:02.519 --> 00:12:06.639 to a young man half my age, and he never 201 00:12:06.799 --> 00:12:10.440 drove anything before he got a CDL because he was 202 00:12:10.440 --> 00:12:13.240 born and raised in New York City, where you don't 203 00:12:13.279 --> 00:12:16.360 really need a car the way a suburban high school 204 00:12:16.440 --> 00:12:19.399 or a teenager may need a car. In fact, I 205 00:12:19.440 --> 00:12:21.360 don't know if this is true, but I have read 206 00:12:21.360 --> 00:12:27.159 that the rates of teenage mortality are lowest in New 207 00:12:27.240 --> 00:12:31.080 York City around the country because they're not driving cars. 208 00:12:31.240 --> 00:12:34.600 Yeah right. I checked into this, and the state with 209 00:12:34.639 --> 00:12:39.039 the highest teen death rate not New York. The top 210 00:12:39.080 --> 00:12:45.799 three were Louisiana, Alaska, and Arkansas. So be careful on 211 00:12:45.879 --> 00:12:50.159 those roads, kiddo, you gotta slow down, pay attention, you 212 00:12:50.200 --> 00:12:53.200 know what. Just so a tip for me, designate a driver. 213 00:12:53.840 --> 00:12:56.320 My sister was the victim of a drunk driving accident 214 00:12:56.360 --> 00:13:00.799 when she was sixteen, and she was airlifted to a hospital. 215 00:13:01.080 --> 00:13:06.360 The windshield was shattered by her face, and luckily for us, 216 00:13:06.639 --> 00:13:09.240 she made it out and she is fine, but she 217 00:13:09.519 --> 00:13:13.120 was picking glass out of her forehead. Years later, the 218 00:13:13.200 --> 00:13:16.639 guy driving broke a bunch of his legs. So designate 219 00:13:16.639 --> 00:13:19.320 a driver or volunteer to be for one of your 220 00:13:19.320 --> 00:13:21.559 friends who will love you all the more knowing that 221 00:13:21.600 --> 00:13:24.039 they have a safe ride home during which they will 222 00:13:24.159 --> 00:13:27.399 not get killed or arrested, just saying and buckle up, 223 00:13:27.519 --> 00:13:27.840 thank you. 224 00:13:28.279 --> 00:13:31.519 So I knew how to do donuts in a parking lot, right, 225 00:13:31.759 --> 00:13:34.639 But that doesn't mean you know how to do it 226 00:13:34.679 --> 00:13:37.519 with a garbage truck. With a collection truck. That's its 227 00:13:37.559 --> 00:13:41.440 own that I will say you do on the road 228 00:13:41.519 --> 00:13:44.120 in a collection truck because nobody wants to be near you. 229 00:13:44.159 --> 00:13:45.759 They don't know if you're empty or full. They just 230 00:13:45.799 --> 00:13:47.759 don't want to be anywhere near you. So you kind 231 00:13:47.759 --> 00:13:51.480 of were the King. Yeah, what a majesty, which was fun. 232 00:13:52.240 --> 00:13:55.480 Robin's twenty thirteen TED talk is titled What I Discovered 233 00:13:55.559 --> 00:13:58.480 in New York City Trash, and she explains that a 234 00:13:58.559 --> 00:14:02.000 childhood camping trip left a really deep impression, and by 235 00:14:02.000 --> 00:14:04.320 that I think I mean it scarred her, but thankfully 236 00:14:04.399 --> 00:14:05.600 so for us. 237 00:14:06.399 --> 00:14:09.159 We got to our campsite. It was a lean to 238 00:14:09.279 --> 00:14:13.080 on a bluff looking over a crystal beautiful lake when 239 00:14:13.080 --> 00:14:17.240 I discovered a horror. Behind the lean to was a 240 00:14:17.320 --> 00:14:22.399 dump maybe forty feet square, with rotting apple cores and 241 00:14:22.919 --> 00:14:26.240 balled up aluminum foil and a dead sneaker. And I 242 00:14:26.399 --> 00:14:30.720 was astonished. I was very angry, and I was deeply 243 00:14:30.759 --> 00:14:34.159 confused the campers who were too lazy to take out 244 00:14:34.159 --> 00:14:36.679 what they had brought in. Who did they think would 245 00:14:36.679 --> 00:14:41.200 clean up after them? That question stayed with me and 246 00:14:41.240 --> 00:14:44.559 it simplified a little who cleans up after us? 247 00:14:45.399 --> 00:14:48.159 Now, you mentioned that this was an early obsession for you, 248 00:14:48.200 --> 00:14:52.000 But talking about the history of garbage, if we could 249 00:14:52.039 --> 00:14:57.200 go back, when does garbage start in humanity? I mean 250 00:14:57.240 --> 00:15:00.960 we have probably piles of charred bone and things from 251 00:15:01.279 --> 00:15:04.679 dating back to the beginning of humans gathering. There have 252 00:15:04.679 --> 00:15:05.879 been garbage piles. 253 00:15:05.639 --> 00:15:09.320 Right, depends again on your definition of garbage. So one 254 00:15:09.360 --> 00:15:12.399 of the fun challenges is to decide when is it 255 00:15:13.840 --> 00:15:18.399 garbage quotes around the word, and when is it evidence, 256 00:15:18.639 --> 00:15:23.200 archaeological treasure, some kind of tidbit of a story of 257 00:15:23.200 --> 00:15:26.840 our own past. I did a lot of work before, 258 00:15:27.559 --> 00:15:30.320 just as part of the bigger project with what's called 259 00:15:30.320 --> 00:15:34.039 the Human relations area of files ATREFS. So the human 260 00:15:34.080 --> 00:15:37.799 relations area of files are a compendium of ethnographic data 261 00:15:38.320 --> 00:15:45.200 cross referenced around. You name the category kinship, child rearing, economic, 262 00:15:45.320 --> 00:15:47.440 and you know, to say economy, that's a huge subject. 263 00:15:47.519 --> 00:15:52.679 So underneath that inheritance rules ways of organizing what we 264 00:15:52.759 --> 00:15:56.480 might call religious belief and ceremony and ritual. And so 265 00:15:56.799 --> 00:16:00.519 I spent quite a while looking at how cultures have 266 00:16:00.559 --> 00:16:02.600 dealt with waste, how do they define it and what 267 00:16:02.639 --> 00:16:05.879 do they do about it? And one of the intriguing 268 00:16:06.720 --> 00:16:09.879 findings I think is that we've kind of never come 269 00:16:09.960 --> 00:16:13.240 up with a particularly great way of dealing with it. 270 00:16:13.320 --> 00:16:16.080 Some small scale cultures, when it just got to be 271 00:16:16.120 --> 00:16:18.559 too much, they just up and moved to a different location. 272 00:16:19.759 --> 00:16:22.759 Others have buried it over time to the point where 273 00:16:22.759 --> 00:16:26.320 they raise their elevation. In fact, some of the older 274 00:16:26.360 --> 00:16:28.480 cities of the world, this is true in Rome and 275 00:16:28.960 --> 00:16:31.639 some of the other great cities in Europe and parts 276 00:16:31.639 --> 00:16:35.919 of Asia, some have specific scavenger species they rely on 277 00:16:36.200 --> 00:16:39.600 to take care of what we would call waste. Putting 278 00:16:39.600 --> 00:16:42.200 it in a nearby waterway has been very fashionable for 279 00:16:42.600 --> 00:16:47.200 millennia and not a problem until, of course, we well, 280 00:16:47.320 --> 00:16:49.879 until many things came to pass, But when we were 281 00:16:49.960 --> 00:16:56.000 all smaller scale, it didn't decimate that waterway. We've burned it, 282 00:16:56.799 --> 00:16:59.879 we've used it for fuel, we've ignored it, we have 283 00:17:00.120 --> 00:17:02.519 mapped it onto different classes, so that if you are 284 00:17:02.559 --> 00:17:05.480 closer to a given form of waste, through no fault 285 00:17:05.480 --> 00:17:09.119 of your own, you are considered sort of there's a 286 00:17:09.160 --> 00:17:11.720 contagion kind of belief that goes with that, and then 287 00:17:11.759 --> 00:17:15.000 your status within that culture is diminished. In other words, 288 00:17:16.240 --> 00:17:20.119 we kind of only to ever burn berry or dump 289 00:17:20.200 --> 00:17:23.880 in the water or give to scavengers. Recycling. We call 290 00:17:23.920 --> 00:17:27.000 it recycling, but before that word, it was just reusing 291 00:17:27.079 --> 00:17:30.119 something until it fell apart, right, which we used to 292 00:17:30.160 --> 00:17:32.920 do more commonly. And now it's coming back almost through 293 00:17:32.920 --> 00:17:36.599 this and I don't mean this in a derogatory way, 294 00:17:36.640 --> 00:17:40.039 But this almost BOUTIQUI diy like, Look, I unraveled this 295 00:17:40.079 --> 00:17:42.000 old sweater and now I'm re knitting with that yarn't 296 00:17:42.039 --> 00:17:45.039 which I think is really really cool. It doesn't scale 297 00:17:45.119 --> 00:17:47.960 up necessarily, and that's a problem if we want to 298 00:17:48.079 --> 00:17:52.200 solve the challenge, the problem that is solid waste broadly 299 00:17:52.200 --> 00:17:57.519 defined sweater unraveling by itself. Let's put it this. It's 300 00:17:57.519 --> 00:17:59.799 a good first step. You're doing great. 301 00:18:00.400 --> 00:18:02.880 And was there a really big difference in terms of 302 00:18:02.880 --> 00:18:07.519 how sanitation was handled pre and post plastic era? 303 00:18:08.680 --> 00:18:13.200 Plastics have changed the whole game. We would like to 304 00:18:13.240 --> 00:18:19.720 believe that plastics are recyclable, but that's not really true. 305 00:18:19.839 --> 00:18:23.319 They degrade each time they go through a recycling process, 306 00:18:23.599 --> 00:18:27.599 so after a few times through, you really only have 307 00:18:27.640 --> 00:18:31.160 a slurry that you can't build or do anything with 308 00:18:31.279 --> 00:18:34.160 and it ends up in an incinerator or landfill anyway. 309 00:18:34.759 --> 00:18:40.440 Plastics also off gas always, so there's always some kind 310 00:18:40.480 --> 00:18:43.519 of chemical component that's inside the water of the plastic 311 00:18:43.519 --> 00:18:46.880 water bottle, inside the food, in the plastic packaging, inside 312 00:18:47.160 --> 00:18:50.880 the baby's mouth when they're suckling on some plastic, you know. 313 00:18:50.960 --> 00:18:56.680 So that's another waste product that is invisible to us. 314 00:18:56.799 --> 00:18:59.319 But that is that we now carry in our bodies, 315 00:18:59.359 --> 00:19:03.640 especially fat cells. There is almost no species of being 316 00:19:03.640 --> 00:19:07.319 on the planet that does not have some of these 317 00:19:07.480 --> 00:19:12.279 so called forever chemicals inside of ourselves. All like name 318 00:19:12.319 --> 00:19:15.839 the animal, name the insect, those chemicals are present. 319 00:19:16.359 --> 00:19:19.000 These chemicals I looked into it are called PERR and 320 00:19:19.160 --> 00:19:24.119 polyfluorinated alkyl substances, or pfos, and there are close to 321 00:19:24.400 --> 00:19:28.799 five thousand different types of pfos. But one thing they 322 00:19:28.839 --> 00:19:31.000 have in common is that they don't occur in nature, 323 00:19:31.359 --> 00:19:34.279 and bacteria can't break them down, and neither can fire 324 00:19:34.799 --> 00:19:38.799 or water. Fun Why don't you want such a hardy, 325 00:19:39.079 --> 00:19:40.960 toxic compound in your system? 326 00:19:41.200 --> 00:19:41.359 Oh? 327 00:19:41.519 --> 00:19:45.240 Just things like changes in liver enzymes, increased risk of 328 00:19:45.319 --> 00:19:49.559 high blood pressure or preaclamsia in pregnant people, small decreases 329 00:19:49.599 --> 00:19:53.440 in infant birth weights, increased risk of kidney or testicular cancer, 330 00:19:53.880 --> 00:19:58.680 increased cholesterol levels, and decreased vaccine response in children, according 331 00:19:58.720 --> 00:20:04.079 to the CDC's a Agency for Toxic Substances and Disease Registry. Boy, 332 00:20:04.599 --> 00:20:07.359 maybe we have a solution here. In August of twenty twenty, 333 00:20:07.720 --> 00:20:12.640 a study was published called low temperature mineralization of perfluorocarboxylic 334 00:20:12.759 --> 00:20:16.720 acids by some environmental chemist at Northwestern University who found 335 00:20:16.720 --> 00:20:20.480 that a few types of pfas can indeed decompose using 336 00:20:20.519 --> 00:20:25.240 some inexpensive and easy to obtain reagents sodium hydroxide and 337 00:20:25.279 --> 00:20:28.960 dimethyl sulfoxide in case you're taking notes, at about two 338 00:20:29.079 --> 00:20:32.359 hundred and forty eight degrees fahrenheit, which is a relatively 339 00:20:32.400 --> 00:20:34.839 low temperature that won't even bake a cookie. But the 340 00:20:34.960 --> 00:20:38.839 end product is non toxic and benign. This is amazing. 341 00:20:39.039 --> 00:20:41.079 This just came out a few months ago. Did we 342 00:20:41.119 --> 00:20:45.240 fix forever chemicals? Not at all, Not at all. This 343 00:20:45.319 --> 00:20:49.319 only works on certain types of p fas, and environmental 344 00:20:49.359 --> 00:20:53.480 scientists still say to stop making and dumping them. Like 345 00:20:53.559 --> 00:20:56.799 we learned in the Oceanology episode, the first task in 346 00:20:56.880 --> 00:21:00.000 cleaning up the ocean is to stop letting so much 347 00:21:00.119 --> 00:21:03.240 trash into the ocean in the first place. Otherwise you're 348 00:21:03.279 --> 00:21:07.200 just chasing your toxic tail. Oh, speaking of plastics. 349 00:21:06.960 --> 00:21:13.640 Plastics also connects to a kind of industrial process and 350 00:21:13.720 --> 00:21:20.240 complex of planned obsolescence and trying to convince a larger 351 00:21:20.319 --> 00:21:23.400 public that each of us, as an individual is responsible 352 00:21:23.480 --> 00:21:26.359 for making sure that plastic object goes into the right 353 00:21:26.400 --> 00:21:30.200 bin to be recycled, even though the recyclability of it 354 00:21:30.279 --> 00:21:35.240 is mostly a myth. But there was a deliberate campaign 355 00:21:35.440 --> 00:21:38.799 that started in the nineteen fifties to teach us that 356 00:21:38.920 --> 00:21:43.599 we are the individuals responsible, and by extension, municipalities are responsible. 357 00:21:43.880 --> 00:21:49.480 The responsibility for sanitary refuse disposal falls upon every citizen. 358 00:21:49.279 --> 00:21:55.920 Not the manufacturers of those products. That changes everything. And 359 00:21:57.200 --> 00:21:59.720 the other problem with plastics, of course, among many others, 360 00:21:59.799 --> 00:22:04.039 is their longevity. They don't biodegrade, or if they do, 361 00:22:04.119 --> 00:22:09.880 it's very very very slow. And meanwhile they are contributing 362 00:22:09.920 --> 00:22:14.200 their chemical composition to these larger environments and animals. I 363 00:22:14.279 --> 00:22:19.519 just want to say one word to you, just one word. 364 00:22:20.039 --> 00:22:21.680 Yes, sir listening? 365 00:22:21.799 --> 00:22:21.920 Yes? 366 00:22:22.000 --> 00:22:25.680 Are you plastics? So? 367 00:22:26.160 --> 00:22:28.920 Yeah, plastics. Plastics has changed everything. 368 00:22:30.079 --> 00:22:33.359 Does it change the way that you live your life 369 00:22:33.440 --> 00:22:37.920 or what you use? I think we're all so anxious 370 00:22:37.960 --> 00:22:39.759 about it. We don't know what to do. Yeah. 371 00:22:39.880 --> 00:22:43.680 Now that's a real problem, and especially this complete contradiction. 372 00:22:44.400 --> 00:22:46.480 I have been taught that I, as an individual, am 373 00:22:46.519 --> 00:22:49.440 responsible for saving the planet by making sure to recycle 374 00:22:49.480 --> 00:22:54.599 my plastics and glass and paper and metal. But I 375 00:22:54.720 --> 00:22:57.440 know partly because I study it, and then other people 376 00:22:57.559 --> 00:23:00.039 know this sort of in their gut like, yeah, this 377 00:23:00.240 --> 00:23:03.079 doesn't I'm not sure. We've had recycling for a while now. 378 00:23:03.200 --> 00:23:06.519 I don't see the earth getting better, so what's going on? 379 00:23:06.759 --> 00:23:10.519 So it creates this cognitive dissonance. It erodes trust in 380 00:23:10.559 --> 00:23:13.559 the systems that are telling us to please recycle. I 381 00:23:13.599 --> 00:23:18.160 think that learning the practice of recycling being religious about it, 382 00:23:18.400 --> 00:23:22.559 no pun intendent. I think that's important because it can 383 00:23:22.640 --> 00:23:25.599 create a push from the ground up from those of 384 00:23:25.680 --> 00:23:30.839 us as individuals together to press for are there plastic 385 00:23:31.000 --> 00:23:36.440 polymers that could actually be recycled? Are there compostable plastics 386 00:23:36.880 --> 00:23:40.680 that could work in municipal compost systems? Because if something 387 00:23:40.720 --> 00:23:44.400 says it's compostable, okay, that's great, but compostable in what 388 00:23:44.559 --> 00:23:48.839 context through what specific mechanisms of heat and time, and 389 00:23:48.880 --> 00:23:52.039 those are built very carefully to account for whatever is 390 00:23:52.039 --> 00:23:54.119 the primary material you know you're going to be dealing with, 391 00:23:54.160 --> 00:23:56.799 like yard waste and food scraps. But if you add 392 00:23:56.839 --> 00:24:00.440 compostable plastic, that doesn't necessarily come out the other side 393 00:24:00.880 --> 00:24:03.920 as compost, but as still breaking down pieces of plastic 394 00:24:03.920 --> 00:24:07.039 that need a different system. So if enough of us 395 00:24:07.039 --> 00:24:11.640 are frustrated enough, But we also practice this, We do recycle. 396 00:24:12.720 --> 00:24:16.240 That's a great raw material for what could become an 397 00:24:16.279 --> 00:24:22.640 effective political agitation to make plastic recycling real if that's 398 00:24:23.319 --> 00:24:24.359 chemically possible. 399 00:24:24.640 --> 00:24:26.599 So it's time to get mad as hell if you're 400 00:24:26.640 --> 00:24:29.839 not already about a lot of stuff. And there are 401 00:24:29.839 --> 00:24:32.480