WEBVTT 1 00:00:07.160 --> 00:00:08.919 Our guest now is Jeffrey Rosen. 2 00:00:09.039 --> 00:00:11.199 The book which just came out about a week or 3 00:00:11.279 --> 00:00:15.960 so ago, The Pursuit of Liberty, How Hamilton versus Jefferson 4 00:00:16.320 --> 00:00:18.600 ignited the lasting battle. 5 00:00:18.359 --> 00:00:19.679 Over power in America. 6 00:00:20.440 --> 00:00:25.960 And in his book he traces this over different time periods, 7 00:00:25.960 --> 00:00:28.600 a couple of decades, each of these things, and how 8 00:00:28.960 --> 00:00:34.119 people's viewpoint and our viewpoint of government has shifted between 9 00:00:34.159 --> 00:00:36.000 these two polls. 10 00:00:36.039 --> 00:00:37.439 I guess in terms. 11 00:00:37.119 --> 00:00:39.880 Of looking at how power should be structured here in 12 00:00:39.880 --> 00:00:42.759 the United States, between Hamilton and Jefferson. But you have 13 00:00:42.799 --> 00:00:48.079 an interesting anecdote about Hamilton and Jefferson and what happened, 14 00:00:48.119 --> 00:00:50.280 what Jefferson did after Hamilton died. 15 00:00:50.280 --> 00:00:51.359 Tell us a little bit about that. 16 00:00:52.640 --> 00:00:57.000 It's so moving that Hamilton and Jefferson's battles define our 17 00:00:57.119 --> 00:01:00.719 early debates and in fact all debates ever since about 18 00:01:01.000 --> 00:01:04.920 national power versus states rights, or a strong executive versus 19 00:01:05.159 --> 00:01:09.079 a strong judiciary, or liberal versus strict construction of the Constitution, 20 00:01:09.599 --> 00:01:12.040 and their battles over the Bank of the United States 21 00:01:12.040 --> 00:01:14.959 and the Aliens Edition Acts lead to the formation of 22 00:01:15.000 --> 00:01:18.879 America's first political parties. But despite all of those clashes, 23 00:01:19.439 --> 00:01:22.640 at the end of his life after Hamilton dies in 24 00:01:22.719 --> 00:01:26.120 the duel, because they're both united in believing that Aaron 25 00:01:26.200 --> 00:01:29.760 Burr is a traitor who's trying to raise an insurrection 26 00:01:29.879 --> 00:01:32.640 in Spanish Louisiana and set himself up as a dictator. 27 00:01:33.040 --> 00:01:36.719 After they both united against Burr, Jefferson places a bust 28 00:01:36.760 --> 00:01:39.719 of Hamilton across from his own in the central entrance 29 00:01:39.719 --> 00:01:41.959 hall of Monticello. You can see it there today if 30 00:01:42.000 --> 00:01:45.120 you go there. And he passed it. Jefferson would say, 31 00:01:45.400 --> 00:01:49.000 opposed in life as in death, and he viewed Hamilton 32 00:01:49.120 --> 00:01:51.879 not as a hated enemy to be destroyed, but a 33 00:01:51.959 --> 00:01:55.719 respected adversary to be engaged with. And that spirit of 34 00:01:56.079 --> 00:01:59.400 civil dialogue and learning how to listen to the other 35 00:01:59.519 --> 00:02:03.120 side disagreeing without being disagreeable, is one that we've vigently 36 00:02:03.159 --> 00:02:04.120 got to get back today. 37 00:02:04.280 --> 00:02:07.560 Oh yes, we do talk about that almost every day. 38 00:02:08.159 --> 00:02:12.120 So what has happened with that? Let's start with the introduction, say, 39 00:02:12.479 --> 00:02:15.479 the greatest man that ever lived was Julius Caesar, quote unquote, 40 00:02:15.800 --> 00:02:18.520 and the dinner party that defined America. Tell us a 41 00:02:18.520 --> 00:02:21.360 little about what that is about. What's that dinner party about? 42 00:02:21.599 --> 00:02:25.199 It's amazing how relevant it is to our current debates. 43 00:02:25.240 --> 00:02:27.400 So this is a dinner party in the room where 44 00:02:27.400 --> 00:02:30.719 it happened, not the one where they moved the capital 45 00:02:30.800 --> 00:02:34.120 from New York to Washington, d C. In exchange for 46 00:02:34.159 --> 00:02:36.639 assuming the national death. The one in the Hamilton musical. 47 00:02:36.840 --> 00:02:39.680 This is a year later and Washington's away. The whole 48 00:02:39.719 --> 00:02:42.960 cabinet has gathered. At some point, Hamilton says to Jefferson, 49 00:02:43.120 --> 00:02:45.840 who are those three guys on the wall? And Jefferson says, 50 00:02:45.840 --> 00:02:48.080 those are my three portraits of the three greatest men 51 00:02:48.120 --> 00:02:52.080 in history, John Locke, Francis Bacon, and Isaac Newton. And 52 00:02:52.120 --> 00:02:54.479 Hamilton pauses for a long time and then he blurts 53 00:02:54.520 --> 00:02:57.879 out the greatest man that ever lived was Julius Caesar. 54 00:02:58.520 --> 00:03:02.919 And Vince's jeff He works in his diary that Hamilton 55 00:03:03.159 --> 00:03:07.159 is for a monarchy bottomed on corruption, and he proceeds 56 00:03:07.159 --> 00:03:10.199 to found the Democratic Republican Party in order to resist 57 00:03:10.199 --> 00:03:14.319 the alleged dictatorial ambitions of Hamilton and the Federalists. And 58 00:03:14.439 --> 00:03:18.039 Jefferson's convinced from his studies of history that all elective 59 00:03:18.120 --> 00:03:21.960 monarchies and with popular leaders like Caesar converting themselves into 60 00:03:22.319 --> 00:03:27.080 hereditary despots. And that's why Jefferson wants a one year 61 00:03:27.439 --> 00:03:29.599 termlament for the president. When he gets a copy of 62 00:03:29.599 --> 00:03:33.280 the Constitution, he writes to Madison that a future president 63 00:03:33.360 --> 00:03:35.599 might refuse to leave office, so we need a one 64 00:03:35.680 --> 00:03:38.879 year termlament. Now, the anecdote is so interesting because, as 65 00:03:39.000 --> 00:03:43.360 Ron Cherno, the great Hamilton historian, notes, when Hamilton praised 66 00:03:43.400 --> 00:03:46.560 Julius Caesar, he must have been joking. He insisted throughout 67 00:03:46.560 --> 00:03:49.400 his career that the greatest threat to America was an 68 00:03:49.439 --> 00:03:53.879 authoritarian demagogue like Caesar, who could overthrow popular elections and 69 00:03:53.919 --> 00:03:58.400 consolidate power in his own hands. Hamilton's solution, amazingly, is 70 00:03:58.479 --> 00:04:01.159 a life term for the president. Basically, if the presidents 71 00:04:01.199 --> 00:04:03.680 are like Hight, he says, he won't be tempted to 72 00:04:03.759 --> 00:04:06.960 extend his term, and that's too much at the Constitutional Convention. 73 00:04:07.000 --> 00:04:12.400 But amazingly, James Madison and gouvernor Morris at some point 74 00:04:12.479 --> 00:04:14.960 support a version of a life term, so Hamilton wasn't 75 00:04:15.000 --> 00:04:19.600 totally off on his own. Nevertheless, you know, the Constitution 76 00:04:19.800 --> 00:04:24.360 chooses no term limits, and then Jefferson establishes the tradition 77 00:04:24.480 --> 00:04:27.920 of stepping down after two terms. Washington, of course, famously 78 00:04:28.319 --> 00:04:31.600 gave up the office like Cincinnati, returning to his farm. Yes, 79 00:04:31.959 --> 00:04:37.040 but it was Jefferson who, by reaffirming that tradition establishes it. 80 00:04:37.160 --> 00:04:38.560 And you know, I've just been looking into it in 81 00:04:38.600 --> 00:04:41.560 light of the recent question about whether or not President 82 00:04:41.600 --> 00:04:44.439 Trump can run for a third term. That Jefferson tradition 83 00:04:44.519 --> 00:04:47.879 holds until Grant, who actually does want to run for 84 00:04:47.920 --> 00:04:50.480 a third term, but Congress subjects and he kind of 85 00:04:50.600 --> 00:04:54.879 pushes back. The first president who's nominated and runs for 86 00:04:54.879 --> 00:04:57.160 a third term, of course, is Theodore Roosevelt on the 87 00:04:57.199 --> 00:05:00.319 third party ticket. He promised not to run again, and 88 00:05:00.360 --> 00:05:03.319 then he breaks that promise, and then Franklin Roosevelt and 89 00:05:03.480 --> 00:05:05.480 NFDR is such a great example of the kind of 90 00:05:05.560 --> 00:05:09.759 Julius Caesar because he's attacked throughout his term as a 91 00:05:09.800 --> 00:05:12.519 would be Caesar, and he dresses up in nineteen thirty 92 00:05:12.560 --> 00:05:16.519 four like Caesar. He has a Caesar themed birthday party, 93 00:05:16.560 --> 00:05:21.360 and Eleanor dresses like a Roman matron, and he in 94 00:05:21.399 --> 00:05:23.360 the middle. But it's in the middle of World War two. 95 00:05:23.439 --> 00:05:26.199 So he arranges to be drafted by the Democratic Convention. 96 00:05:26.720 --> 00:05:29.240 He runs for a third term, and then he wins 97 00:05:29.839 --> 00:05:33.560 a fourth. He dies after eighty two days after his election. 98 00:05:33.680 --> 00:05:36.360 Is the fourth term, and then Republicans in Congress just think, 99 00:05:36.399 --> 00:05:41.079 we this cannot happen again a president who keeps running. 100 00:05:41.519 --> 00:05:46.240 So in nineteen forty seven, Congress, which has been retaken 101 00:05:46.240 --> 00:05:49.800 by the Republicans, proposes the twenty second Amendment, which says 102 00:05:49.879 --> 00:05:52.839 you can't be elected to the office of president more 103 00:05:52.879 --> 00:05:56.959 than twice. It's ratified in nineteen fifty one, and ever 104 00:05:57.000 --> 00:06:00.319 since then, that's pretty well stuck. I mean sometimes Ronald 105 00:06:00.319 --> 00:06:03.560 Reagan wanted to repeal the twenty second Amendment after he 106 00:06:03.680 --> 00:06:07.120 left office, but there haven't been any real efforts to 107 00:06:07.160 --> 00:06:10.160 do it. It's relatively popular, and that brings it to 108 00:06:10.199 --> 00:06:14.959 our current debates. The President Trump had noted that his 109 00:06:15.079 --> 00:06:19.800 staff had discussed this potential loophole where you could run 110 00:06:20.000 --> 00:06:23.160 as a vice president, be elected, and then the elected 111 00:06:23.160 --> 00:06:26.800 president could resign and you could succeed that way. President 112 00:06:26.839 --> 00:06:28.920 Trump called that probably too cute, and I saw that 113 00:06:29.120 --> 00:06:32.399 just this morning. He seemed to acknowledge that the amendment 114 00:06:32.439 --> 00:06:34.839 clearly forbids a third term. He'd say, I'd say, if 115 00:06:34.839 --> 00:06:36.800 you read that, it's pretty clear I'm not allowed to run. 116 00:06:37.040 --> 00:06:39.000 But the debate is so interesting because it goes back 117 00:06:39.040 --> 00:06:41.839 to Hamilton and Jefferson to that dinner party that defined America. 118 00:06:41.920 --> 00:06:44.759 And the point is that all of the Framers are 119 00:06:45.000 --> 00:06:48.800 very concerned about presidents extending their power through dictatorial means. 120 00:06:48.839 --> 00:06:51.480 All the ancient republics of Greece and Rome had fallen 121 00:06:51.959 --> 00:06:56.319 because the virtue of the citizens hadn't led citizens to 122 00:06:56.360 --> 00:07:00.439 protect liberty and had made them succumb to these demagogic leaders. 123 00:07:00.680 --> 00:07:03.120 And that's why, though we've debated exactly how to impose 124 00:07:03.199 --> 00:07:05.639 term limits, I think Harry Truman put it best when 125 00:07:05.639 --> 00:07:09.079 he in nineteen fifty said he I think he said, 126 00:07:09.120 --> 00:07:11.240 I know I could be elected and continue to break 127 00:07:11.279 --> 00:07:14.439 the old president, but it shouldn't be done. The president 128 00:07:14.519 --> 00:07:20.079 should continue to be limited by custom, based on the 129 00:07:20.120 --> 00:07:21.879 honor of the man in the office. And I think 130 00:07:21.879 --> 00:07:22.600 that's a great way. 131 00:07:22.800 --> 00:07:25.160 I agree. And you know that's what is so dangerous 132 00:07:25.199 --> 00:07:25.480 by it. 133 00:07:25.600 --> 00:07:28.879 You know that dinner of course, certainly, at least in 134 00:07:29.199 --> 00:07:33.120 Jefferson's estimation, you had Hamilton crossing the rubicon, and it's like, oh, 135 00:07:33.199 --> 00:07:35.160 that's it. You know, this guy was a lifetime president. 136 00:07:35.279 --> 00:07:38.560 He thinks Julius Caesar was it. But you know, it's 137 00:07:38.600 --> 00:07:42.639 something that has really bothered me when people talk about 138 00:07:43.360 --> 00:07:46.000 this guy being the drugs are I think is William Bennett, 139 00:07:46.240 --> 00:07:46.879 and he. 140 00:07:46.759 --> 00:07:48.319 Accepted that term, and it's. 141 00:07:48.160 --> 00:07:50.279 Like, well, you know, Zar is Caesar, right, it's the 142 00:07:50.319 --> 00:07:52.480 same thing, and we see this over and over again. 143 00:07:52.519 --> 00:07:54.319 We got a czar for this and a zar for that. 144 00:07:54.600 --> 00:07:59.600 So we have this trend towards a kind of authoritarian dictatorship, leader, 145 00:08:00.040 --> 00:08:02.399 strong man, whatever you want to call it. I think 146 00:08:02.399 --> 00:08:04.920 it's a very dangerous trend. And the thing that concerned 147 00:08:04.920 --> 00:08:07.240 me is I said earlier in the program, you know, 148 00:08:07.279 --> 00:08:10.839 if we don't understand the history, if we don't understand 149 00:08:10.839 --> 00:08:13.399 the constitution and how we got there, you know, we're 150 00:08:13.439 --> 00:08:14.759 still having these same arguments. 151 00:08:14.800 --> 00:08:15.439 As you point out. 152 00:08:15.439 --> 00:08:17.560 This whole purpose of your book is the point out 153 00:08:17.600 --> 00:08:19.759 how this has gone back and forth, and we have 154 00:08:19.839 --> 00:08:23.800 these two polls that were drawn to and we don't 155 00:08:23.879 --> 00:08:27.800 understand history. We don't really see human nature and how 156 00:08:27.879 --> 00:08:30.839 human nature is continually going back to these types of 157 00:08:30.879 --> 00:08:33.080 things over and over again, so we don't have a 158 00:08:33.159 --> 00:08:36.159 context for it. But I think that's what's really important 159 00:08:36.159 --> 00:08:40.080 about your book and about studying history and looking at 160 00:08:40.120 --> 00:08:43.639 these different philosophies that are there towards government. I think 161 00:08:43.679 --> 00:08:47.080 it's very important. Now so we have That was the 162 00:08:47.080 --> 00:08:50.279 introduction to your book, and then you're talking about how 163 00:08:51.759 --> 00:08:55.159 the will of the majority should always prevail Thomas Jefferson's 164 00:08:55.159 --> 00:08:57.879 declaration those one of the things that Steve Bannon was saying. 165 00:08:57.879 --> 00:09:00.320 He said, well, the will of the people is the kindstitution. 166 00:09:00.559 --> 00:09:02.879 And I'm like, well, no, I believe that the Constitution 167 00:09:03.639 --> 00:09:06.360 is a written document, and I think it is very 168 00:09:06.399 --> 00:09:10.039 important to have an established standard that is out there 169 00:09:10.200 --> 00:09:12.799 that is external to the people. I think you have 170 00:09:12.840 --> 00:09:15.480 to have some kind of an external standard so that 171 00:09:16.200 --> 00:09:18.159 you don't wind up with a dictator, or so that 172 00:09:18.240 --> 00:09:20.600 you know that you've got a dictator if they ignore 173 00:09:20.639 --> 00:09:24.080 that standard that's there. As someone who is working with 174 00:09:24.159 --> 00:09:28.799 the constitutional issues all the time with your organization, what 175 00:09:28.840 --> 00:09:29.639 do you think about that? 176 00:09:30.840 --> 00:09:33.840 Well, you're absolutely right that that's a central debate that 177 00:09:33.879 --> 00:09:37.600 goes back to the founding, the balance between democracy and 178 00:09:37.799 --> 00:09:42.279 rule by elites. How can we empower majorities while resisting 179 00:09:42.320 --> 00:09:45.559 the mob And that's the central reason the Constitutional Convention 180 00:09:45.720 --> 00:09:48.360 was called. Hamilton and Madison and the other federalist who 181 00:09:48.360 --> 00:09:51.720 are afraid of SHA's rebellion in western Massachusetts where debtors 182 00:09:51.720 --> 00:09:56.559 are mobbing the courthouses and the federal Armory. And Hamilton says, 183 00:09:56.600 --> 00:09:59.240 imagine that SHA's rebellion had been led by a caesar 184 00:09:59.440 --> 00:10:02.600 or a cattle line, he would have begun a demagogue 185 00:10:02.679 --> 00:10:05.720 and turned tyrant. So so much of the Constitution is 186 00:10:05.759 --> 00:10:09.799 designed to slow down deliberation, to prevent mobs from formalizing, 187 00:10:09.840 --> 00:10:13.200 to put on checks on direct democracy. At the same time, 188 00:10:13.919 --> 00:10:17.279 the will of the people must ultimately prevail. And that's 189 00:10:17.279 --> 00:10:20.639 why Jefferson's great vision was that the will of the 190 00:10:20.679 --> 00:10:23.960 majority should always ultimately prevail. He wanted to, believe it 191 00:10:24.039 --> 00:10:26.960 or not, a constitutional convention every nineteen years, so that 192 00:10:27.000 --> 00:10:29.799 the people could decide whether they still supported it. Hamilton 193 00:10:30.240 --> 00:10:33.039 was a disastrous idea because it would, you know, as 194 00:10:33.039 --> 00:10:36.440 a miracle the first convention had succeeded. But that balance 195 00:10:36.480 --> 00:10:40.320 between democracy and rule Biolits is central. Fdr is really 196 00:10:40.320 --> 00:10:43.000 amazing here. And you're so right about the importance, the 197 00:10:43.120 --> 00:10:46.759 urgent importance of studying history. I was so struck by 198 00:10:46.799 --> 00:10:49.799 how presidents throughout history have actually invoked the Hamilton and 199 00:10:49.840 --> 00:10:53.320 Jefferson debate to structure our understanding history. I was inspired 200 00:10:53.360 --> 00:10:55.600 to write the book when I saw that John Quincy 201 00:10:55.639 --> 00:10:59.720 Adams trace the entire development of America's political parties back 202 00:10:59.720 --> 00:11:03.000 to the initial debate between Hamilton and Jefferson about democracy 203 00:11:03.080 --> 00:11:06.399 versus aristocracy, which is the question we're talking about now, 204 00:11:06.600 --> 00:11:08.879 And that kind of Hamilton and Jefferson go up and 205 00:11:08.919 --> 00:11:13.679 down throughout the nineteenth and twentieth century, and Lincoln says 206 00:11:13.679 --> 00:11:16.799 that he's a Jeffersonian even as he's extending the powers 207 00:11:16.840 --> 00:11:22.279 of Congress dramatically. During the Civil War, Theodore Roosevelt leads 208 00:11:22.279 --> 00:11:26.360 a Hamiltonian revival when a historian called Herbert Crowley calls 209 00:11:26.360 --> 00:11:30.080 on him to deploy Hamiltonian means for Jeffersonian ends. In 210 00:11:30.080 --> 00:11:34.039 other words, the Hamiltonians strong federal power for the Jeffersonian 211 00:11:34.159 --> 00:11:37.480 ends of democracy in curbing the corporations. But the most 212 00:11:37.480 --> 00:11:41.279 amazing turn, Hamilton stock crashes. After the stock market crash 213 00:11:41.279 --> 00:11:45.200 in nineteen twenty nine. No one likes Hamilton. Franklin Roosevelt 214 00:11:45.240 --> 00:11:49.279 in nineteen thirty two reinvents the Democratic Party as the 215 00:11:49.279 --> 00:11:52.919 party of Jeffersonian democracy rather than limited government, and he 216 00:11:53.000 --> 00:11:56.320 makes Jefferson the patron saint of the New Deal. Now, 217 00:11:56.360 --> 00:12:00.399 this takes incredible hunts. Franklin Roosevelt's expanding government more than 218 00:12:00.440 --> 00:12:03.399 any other president in history. But he puts Jefferson on 219 00:12:03.440 --> 00:12:05.759 the nickel, and he builds the Jefferson Memorial, and he 220 00:12:05.840 --> 00:12:10.399 reinvents himself as the patron saint of Jeffersonian democracy. So 221 00:12:10.639 --> 00:12:14.519 this just shows how protean, how malleable Hamilton and Jefferson are. 222 00:12:14.559 --> 00:12:17.320 Both sides are often invoking them, you know, for both purposes. 223 00:12:17.480 --> 00:12:19.960 But then to close this part of the story, Ronald 224 00:12:20.000 --> 00:12:22.679 Reagan said that he left the Democratic Party in nineteen 225 00:12:22.720 --> 00:12:25.279 sixty because it had abandoned the principles of Jefferson and 226 00:12:25.360 --> 00:12:28.279 limited government, and he proposed to reinvent the Republican Party 227 00:12:28.639 --> 00:12:33.039 as the libertarian Jefferson rather than the Jefferson who hated 228 00:12:34.240 --> 00:12:39.320 the banks and the patron sainted a New Deal. And 229 00:12:39.480 --> 00:12:43.240 that really does bring us to today, where as you suggested, 230 00:12:43.559 --> 00:12:46.360 the sides are so scrambled, and in some sense both 231 00:12:46.799 --> 00:12:51.159 sides will still invoke both folks. President Trump said that 232 00:12:51.200 --> 00:12:54.879 he was running for office in twenty twenty because Democrats 233 00:12:54.879 --> 00:12:57.919 wanted to take down statues of Thomas Jefferson, and he 234 00:12:58.000 --> 00:13:02.000 was defending the founding ideals. Although he's certainly using executive 235 00:13:02.000 --> 00:13:05.679 power in ways that Jefferson would have questioned, whereas Joe 236 00:13:05.720 --> 00:13:10.080 Biden and the Democrats, you know, everyone's a Hamiltonian after 237 00:13:10.120 --> 00:13:13.279 the musical and President Obama, yeah, exactly at the White 238 00:13:13.320 --> 00:13:17.759 House and stuff. But they're hardly fans of Hamilton's fiscal 239 00:13:17.799 --> 00:13:22.559 responsibility or his principles of you know, of capitalism in 240 00:13:22.600 --> 00:13:26.600 the free market. So we're very much as always debating 241 00:13:26.639 --> 00:13:29.559 the legacy of these men. But that basic tension you 242 00:13:29.720 --> 00:13:33.279 just identified between democracy and rule by elites is central 243 00:13:33.360 --> 00:13:34.159 American history. 244 00:13:34.360 --> 00:13:37.720 And of course Jefferson was really well loved by the people. 245 00:13:37.759 --> 00:13:40.159 He's so linked to liberty if you're talking about, you know, 246 00:13:40.159 --> 00:13:42.519 the libertarian streak of it, but he was linked to 247 00:13:42.720 --> 00:13:45.799 liberty and the minds of the American people. We got 248 00:13:46.639 --> 00:13:50.279 towns and counties all across America that are named after Jefferson. 249 00:13:50.480 --> 00:13:53.720 Everybody wants to claim that he is with them on 250 00:13:53.799 --> 00:13:56.879 their political journey. Of course, the Democrats for the longest 251 00:13:56.879 --> 00:14:00.399 time had the Jefferson Jackson dinners that they have there. 252 00:14:00.720 --> 00:14:03.919 And yet you know, they're pushing for a central bank, 253 00:14:03.960 --> 00:14:07.759 which neither of them liked. And so you know, it's 254 00:14:07.840 --> 00:14:09.799 kind of interesting to me, like I said, you know, 255 00:14:09.840 --> 00:14:15.679 we have this increasingly centralized all powerful government like Hamilton 256 00:14:16.080 --> 00:14:19.120 wanted to have. And yet everybody wants to pretend that 257 00:14:19.159 --> 00:14:23.559 they're Jefferson at the same time that this veneer of 258 00:14:23.639 --> 00:14:26.720 Jefferson that's there. Maybe with us Musical Hamilton, they're going 259 00:14:26.759 --> 00:14:31.080 to change that and finally own what is really there. Yeah, 260 00:14:31.080 --> 00:14:33.960 by the time you get to the third chapter, you 261 00:14:34.080 --> 00:14:37.440 talk about the struggle of the bank. Let's talk a 262 00:14:37.480 --> 00:14:39.360 little bit about that, because both of them are on 263 00:14:39.440 --> 00:14:42.639 different sides in terms of the bank. The Central Bank 264 00:14:42.799 --> 00:14:44.759 likes Hamilton. They put him on the ten dollar bill, 265 00:14:44.799 --> 00:14:47.720 but Jefferson they put him on a short lived two 266 00:14:47.759 --> 00:14:51.159 dollar bill. But talk a little bit about the struggle 267 00:14:51.200 --> 00:14:53.360 over the central bank and the national bank. 268 00:14:54.080 --> 00:14:58.159 It's amazing. This is the central debate in American constitutional history, 269 00:14:58.159 --> 00:15:00.639 and it resonates for the next hundred years. The question 270 00:15:00.759 --> 00:15:04.519 is whether Congress can set up a bank. It's the 271 00:15:04.559 --> 00:15:07.320 centerpiece of Hamilton's financial plan. He wants to assume the 272 00:15:07.399 --> 00:15:11.360 state debts and create reliable credit. But the problem is 273 00:15:11.399 --> 00:15:15.559 that Jefferson says it's unconstitutional. So Washington asked for memos 274 00:15:15.639 --> 00:15:17.960 from Jefferson and Hamilton, and he's become some of the 275 00:15:18.000 --> 00:15:21.759 most important constitutional memos in American history. Jefferson says that 276 00:15:21.799 --> 00:15:25.440 it's unconstitutional to create a bank because the Constitution allows 277 00:15:25.480 --> 00:15:29.559 Congress to create all means necessary and proper for promoting 278 00:15:29.600 --> 00:15:33.600 its enumerated ends. And although Congress has the power to 279 00:15:33.840 --> 00:15:36.960 tax and to promote the general welfare, creating a bank 280 00:15:37.039 --> 00:15:41.519 isn't absolutely or indispensably necessary to promoting the general welfare 281 00:15:41.639 --> 00:15:45.639 or raising taxes. Hamilton responds, and he pulls on all night, 282 00:15:45.679 --> 00:15:48.879 or he writes fourteen thousand words, and he said, you 283 00:15:48.919 --> 00:15:53.000 should interpret the necessary and proper clause liberally rather than strictly. 284 00:15:53.240 --> 00:15:57.360 And as long as a chosen means is conducive or 285 00:15:57.519 --> 00:16:02.480 appropriate or use for carrying out an enumerated end, then 286 00:16:02.519 --> 00:16:04.679 it's consistent with the Constitution. And since it might be 287 00:16:04.759 --> 00:16:06.919 useful to have a bank because that would promote credit, 288 00:16:07.279 --> 00:16:11.240 then the bank should be permissible. Washington sides with Hamilton 289 00:16:11.360 --> 00:16:13.559 rather than Jefferson. Then it goes up to the Supreme 290 00:16:13.559 --> 00:16:16.200 Court a few years later, and John Marshall, in one 291 00:16:16.240 --> 00:16:19.120 of the most important Supreme Court opinions ever called McCullough 292 00:16:19.240 --> 00:16:25.000 versus Maryland, sides with Hamilton over Jefferson. Marshall views himself 293 00:16:25.039 --> 00:16:29.159 as Hamilton's successor. He's writing Washington's biography. He has next 294 00:16:29.159 --> 00:16:32.919 to his desk Washington's papers given him by Bushrod Washington, 295 00:16:32.919 --> 00:16:36.320 who's Washington's nephew, and he reads in washington papers Hamilton's 296 00:16:36.320 --> 00:16:39.360 memo about the bank. He paraphrases it almost word for 297 00:16:39.399 --> 00:16:41.440 word in McCulla versus Maryland, and in one of the 298 00:16:41.440 --> 00:16:45.039 most famous sentences in constitutional history, Marshall says, let the 299 00:16:45.159 --> 00:16:47.759 end be legitimate. If the means are appropriate, then it's 300 00:16:47.799 --> 00:16:51.000 consistent with the Constitution, almost a direct paraphrase of Hamilton. 301 00:16:51.639 --> 00:16:55.519 And then for the next of the one hundred years, 302 00:16:55.679 --> 00:16:59.279 the constitutionality of the bank is still alive. Andrew Jackson 303 00:16:59.360 --> 00:17:02.759 resolves to kill the bank. He seizes Martin van Buren's 304 00:17:02.759 --> 00:17:05.160 hand and says, the bank is trying to kill me, 305 00:17:05.279 --> 00:17:09.720 but I won't kill it. He lets it expire. James 306 00:17:09.759 --> 00:17:13.400 Madison eventually, and having initially thought the bank was unconstitutional, 307 00:17:13.519 --> 00:17:15.640 changes his mind because he thinks the people have come 308 00:17:15.680 --> 00:17:18.440 to accept it, showing that he has a kind of 309 00:17:18.440 --> 00:17:22.119 evolving version of the Constitution. And this question of the 310 00:17:22.160 --> 00:17:25.440 ability of Congress to print paper money is central in 311 00:17:25.480 --> 00:17:28.319 the Civil War, and Lincoln actually appoints Supreme Court Justices 312 00:17:28.359 --> 00:17:31.559 to try to uphold his power to print paper money. 313 00:17:31.759 --> 00:17:33.799 And then I won't take you through the rest of 314 00:17:33.839 --> 00:17:36.559 American history right now. But when you think about the 315 00:17:36.599 --> 00:17:42.240 biggest disputes in American constitution constitutional history, including the constitutionality 316 00:17:42.240 --> 00:17:44.599 of the Missouri Compromise which led to the Civil War, 317 00:17:44.880 --> 00:17:48.920 the constitutionality of the post restruction reconstruction Civil Rights Act, 318 00:17:49.279 --> 00:17:51.640 all the way up to the constitutionality of healthcare reform, 319 00:17:51.920 --> 00:17:55.400 it all goes back to liberal versus strict construction. What's necessary, 320 00:17:55.440 --> 00:17:58.799 what's conducive, what's appropriate. And just last week or so, 321 00:17:59.160 --> 00:18:01.680 the Supreme Court is debating the constitutionality of the Voting 322 00:18:01.720 --> 00:18:04.319 Rights Act, and it all goes back to that same debate. 323 00:18:04.400 --> 00:18:07.160 So I was really struck how central this is. And 324 00:18:07.519 --> 00:18:12.079 the main debate in constitutional history is not between originalism 325 00:18:12.119 --> 00:18:16.039 and non originalism. It's between liberal and strict construction of 326 00:18:16.079 --> 00:18:16.720 the Constitution. 327 00:18:17.119 --> 00:18:18.640 Yes, whether or not we take the. 328 00:18:20.160 --> 00:18:22.759 Tenth Amendment very literally to say, well, if you don't 329 00:18:22.759 --> 00:18:25.880 have it listed there, you don't have those powers and so, 330 00:18:26.519 --> 00:18:29.359 but they won't always infer it in terms of the 331 00:18:30.079 --> 00:18:33.480 supremacy clause or the general Welfare Clause, or the Commerce 332 00:18:33.519 --> 00:18:37.039 Clause or something like that. Now you know that chapter 333 00:18:37.400 --> 00:18:39.799 that was You've got dates on many of these things 334 00:18:39.839 --> 00:18:42.759 as well. That was the debate in seventeen ninety seventeen 335 00:18:42.839 --> 00:18:46.240 ninety one, and then we move on to the nullification 336 00:18:46.680 --> 00:18:49.680 debate and whether or not that is the rightful remedy. 337 00:18:49.720 --> 00:18:53.079 That's you've got that date as seventeen ninety two to 338 00:18:53.480 --> 00:18:56.200 seventeen eighty. Let's talk a little bit about that, because 339 00:18:56.480 --> 00:19:00.079 of course nullification comes back in in the eighteen thirties 340 00:19:00.519 --> 00:19:05.400 and we nearly had a secession, and during the nullification 341 00:19:05.559 --> 00:19:09.720 crisis and the tariffs of abomination that happened. I've talked 342 00:19:09.720 --> 00:19:13.319 about that many times because you know, it's kind of 343 00:19:13.319 --> 00:19:16.200 the situation where they reached a compromise and they were 344 00:19:16.200 --> 00:19:19.640 able to defuse it without having a full blown secession, 345 00:19:19.640 --> 00:19:22.440 which happened like thirty years later. And I've looked at 346 00:19:22.480 --> 00:19:24.960 it kind of from the standpoint of the fourth Turning 347 00:19:25.920 --> 00:19:30.000 thesis of Strauss and how and how they're looking at 348 00:19:30.039 --> 00:19:33.279 about every eighty years you have this major restructuring. I said, yeah, 349 00:19:33.279 --> 00:19:36.000 it just it was like the society wasn't really primed 350 00:19:36.279 --> 00:19:38.720 for it at that point, but the timing was right. 351 00:19:39.119 --> 00:19:43.039 Thirty years later, but nullflication was always a big issue. 352 00:19:43.079 --> 00:19:45.680 Talk a little bit about that back in seventeen ninety 353 00:19:45.720 --> 00:19:48.519 two to seventeen eighty what was going on with nulflication 354 00:19:48.599 --> 00:19:49.359 at that point in time. 355 00:19:50.039 --> 00:19:52.960 Absolutely, you really well described the debate, and it goes 356 00:19:53.039 --> 00:19:56.440 right back to Hamilton and Jefferson's debate over the Alien 357 00:19:56.480 --> 00:19:59.400 and Sedition Acts. So, in seventeen ninety eight, the Federalists, 358 00:19:59.440 --> 00:20:02.359 led by John Adams, pass this law, and it's the 359 00:20:02.440 --> 00:20:05.480 greatest assault on free speech in American history. It makes 360 00:20:05.480 --> 00:20:08.519 it a crime to criticize the Federalist President John Adams, 361 00:20:08.680 --> 00:20:11.599 but not the Republican Vice President Thomas Jefferson. It's a 362 00:20:11.640 --> 00:20:17.799 pure political hatchet job, basically. So Jefferson and Madison object 363 00:20:18.240 --> 00:20:22.759 and they write the Virginia and Kentucky resolutions claiming that 364 00:20:23.160 --> 00:20:28.480 these laws are unconstitutional. Madison always takes a moderate and 365 00:20:28.599 --> 00:20:32.599 middle position between Hamilton and Jefferson. Sometimes it's so complicated 366 00:20:32.640 --> 00:20:35.079 that only he can understands it. And he says, if 367 00:20:35.200 --> 00:20:38.480 states don't think that a law is constitutional, they can 368 00:20:38.559 --> 00:20:41.559 interpose an objection. No one knows what this means, except 369 00:20:41.559 --> 00:20:43.759 maybe like sending a stern letter saying that they don't 370 00:20:43.799 --> 00:20:47.640 like it. But Jefferson goes further and in the Kentucky Resolution, 371 00:20:47.720 --> 00:20:49.880 he says, if a state doesn't think that a federal 372 00:20:49.960 --> 00:20:54.079 law is constitutional, it can nullify or refuse to obey it. 373 00:20:54.599 --> 00:20:56.720 That's too much for Madison. He thinks that would lead 374 00:20:56.759 --> 00:21:00.920 to secession, and indeed it does. As the war approaches, 375 00:21:01.440 --> 00:21:06.880 Southern opponents of federal power invoke Jefferson's Kentucky Resolution for 376 00:21:06.920 --> 00:21:10.400 the principle that states can refuse to carry out federal 377 00:21:10.480 --> 00:21:13.200 laws that they disagree with. And it comes to a 378 00:21:13.240 --> 00:21:17.319 head first, as you said, in the nullification controversy arising 379 00:21:17.319 --> 00:21:20.000 out of the tariff of Abominations in eighteen twenty eight, 380 00:21:20.039 --> 00:21:23.680 when South Carolina objects that this northern tariff is going 381 00:21:23.720 --> 00:21:28.519 to hurt its commerce, and John Calhoun says, who's Andrew 382 00:21:28.599 --> 00:21:33.000 Jackson's vice president says that South Carolina can refuse to 383 00:21:33.039 --> 00:21:35.880 carry out the tariff. It's an incredible moment of testing 384 00:21:35.960 --> 00:21:39.359 for Andrew Jackson. After all, he's a Jeffersonian who generally 385 00:21:39.400 --> 00:21:44.079 likes limited government. But in this noble decision to favor 386 00:21:44.200 --> 00:21:47.839 union over secession, Jackson gives a toast. He says, liberty 387 00:21:47.880 --> 00:21:51.160 and union, they must be preserved, and he insists on 388 00:21:51.759 --> 00:21:55.640 enforcing federal law and not allow South Carolina to nullify. 389 00:21:56.200 --> 00:22:00.319 So that is the first great statement of nationalists in 390 00:22:00.319 --> 00:22:04.279 this period. But nevertheless, Calhoun and the Southern Secession has 391 00:22:04.319 --> 00:22:08.240 continued to invoke Jefferson, and finally, right before the Civil War, 392 00:22:08.319 --> 00:22:11.200 they claim that the South can secede from the Union 393 00:22:11.559 --> 00:22:14.839 because we are a compact of states and federal law 394 00:22:14.880 --> 00:22:18.359 is not supreme. Once again, Madison disagrees with that. He 395 00:22:18.400 --> 00:22:21.039 thinks that once states agreed to form the Union, they 396 00:22:21.079 --> 00:22:27.759 can't unilaterally secede. Abraham Lincoln cites Madison and John Marshall 397 00:22:27.920 --> 00:22:31.960 and James Wilson, all nationalists, when he denies the South's 398 00:22:32.000 --> 00:22:34.960 power to secede. And that's one of the precipitents of 399 00:22:34.960 --> 00:22:38.480 the Civil War, the constitutionality of secession, and it takes 400 00:22:38.640 --> 00:22:41.839 the Civil War, and the war came, as Lincoln said, 401 00:22:41.839 --> 00:22:45.279