WEBVTT 1 00:00:01.320 --> 00:00:04.320 So anyway, Bob has his channel and he has Soco films. 2 00:00:04.519 --> 00:00:08.560 I've got the Soco films link below. Bob, tell us 3 00:00:08.599 --> 00:00:11.480 about you first, tell us what your the context of 4 00:00:11.519 --> 00:00:15.480 our chat today, your background, what you're comfortable talking about, 5 00:00:15.560 --> 00:00:17.879 and how you got into speakers, corners. 6 00:00:17.640 --> 00:00:20.399 Debates and anything else you want to tell us about you. 7 00:00:21.559 --> 00:00:30.600 Okay, I became a Christian because of Muslim who he 8 00:00:30.679 --> 00:00:33.039 tried to convert me to Islam when I was at school. 9 00:00:33.640 --> 00:00:36.280 He was a big fan of Acmedi Dat and he 10 00:00:36.399 --> 00:00:40.439 just assumed that everyone who was white and English was 11 00:00:40.439 --> 00:00:45.840 a Christian, and so he tried to, you know, use 12 00:00:45.880 --> 00:00:48.679 all of these kinds of arguments on me. And I 13 00:00:48.719 --> 00:00:53.840 came from a working class background and my family, much 14 00:00:53.960 --> 00:00:57.840 like lots of English working class, had this kind of 15 00:00:57.920 --> 00:01:01.320 notion that they were Church of England. You know, they 16 00:01:01.359 --> 00:01:04.719 were Christian because at baptisms they would baptize their children, 17 00:01:04.760 --> 00:01:07.040 At weddings they would go to church, and at funerals 18 00:01:07.400 --> 00:01:09.040 they would get a priest to come and say some 19 00:01:09.120 --> 00:01:12.560 nice words before sticking people in the ground. Without any 20 00:01:12.640 --> 00:01:15.760 real faith or without any real understanding of what it 21 00:01:15.799 --> 00:01:19.640 means to be a disciple of all Jesus christ And 22 00:01:19.719 --> 00:01:24.760 so when my Muslim friend tried to attack the Christian faith, 23 00:01:24.799 --> 00:01:28.560 I thought he was attacking something English. So I led 24 00:01:28.560 --> 00:01:32.000 to its defense in ignorance. Just to give you a 25 00:01:32.120 --> 00:01:36.000 level of my starting point. In one of these discussions 26 00:01:36.040 --> 00:01:39.439 that I remember because of how embarrassing it was, he said, 27 00:01:39.680 --> 00:01:42.680 he said, let's test how much you know. And he 28 00:01:42.719 --> 00:01:44.760 asked me, you know, what's the first book of the Bible? 29 00:01:44.920 --> 00:01:47.560 I didn't know, and someone said Genesis. And then he said, well, 30 00:01:47.560 --> 00:01:50.120 what's the second book of the Bible? I didn't know, 31 00:01:50.319 --> 00:01:52.840 and someone said Genesis too, and I just said, yes, 32 00:01:52.920 --> 00:01:56.760 Genesis two. So that just tells you how little I 33 00:01:56.799 --> 00:02:05.840 actually knew that correct. Yeah, So I started looking into it. 34 00:02:05.959 --> 00:02:10.080 I started learning about all of these apologetics and polemics, 35 00:02:10.159 --> 00:02:15.120 and then I remember through a Christian Church of Summer 36 00:02:15.120 --> 00:02:17.280 mission that I did in London, I came into contact 37 00:02:17.319 --> 00:02:20.319 with a guy called Jay Smith, who is a wonderful 38 00:02:21.520 --> 00:02:28.319 polemicist and apologist from America, and he really inspired me. 39 00:02:28.400 --> 00:02:31.000 He was the first time that I'd met someone who 40 00:02:31.159 --> 00:02:33.599 was doing evangelism to Muslims in the same way that 41 00:02:33.639 --> 00:02:36.560 I was. So I went to Speaker's Corner a couple 42 00:02:36.639 --> 00:02:39.759 of times and then when I lived in London years 43 00:02:39.800 --> 00:02:43.159 and years ago, I used to irregularly visit Speaker's Corner 44 00:02:44.280 --> 00:02:47.319 and then you know, life took me on a certain 45 00:02:47.439 --> 00:02:50.319 course which led me back to the question of considering 46 00:02:50.319 --> 00:02:55.000 my vocation and how to do that, and that led 47 00:02:55.039 --> 00:02:57.599 me to London and I wanted to get involved in 48 00:02:57.599 --> 00:03:02.080 supporting Jay Smith at Speaker's Corner. And the week that 49 00:03:02.120 --> 00:03:05.240 I went to finding because I knew where he hanged 50 00:03:05.240 --> 00:03:08.360 out before he went to Speakers Corner, he told me 51 00:03:08.400 --> 00:03:10.759 he was leaving. So he was leaving and going back 52 00:03:10.800 --> 00:03:13.439 to America, and he doesn't speak as Corner for decades 53 00:03:14.800 --> 00:03:17.919 and been one of the sole voices making a commendable 54 00:03:17.960 --> 00:03:22.479 defense of the faith down there, and he was leaving. 55 00:03:22.520 --> 00:03:25.360 And his first week that he wasn't at the Corner 56 00:03:25.400 --> 00:03:27.840 that you could tell the Dower team was in glee 57 00:03:27.879 --> 00:03:29.560 at the thought of not having Jay theirs and his 58 00:03:29.680 --> 00:03:34.400 booming voice. It was my first week there and I'd 59 00:03:34.479 --> 00:03:37.520 been going solidly to speak as Corner for about two years. 60 00:03:38.159 --> 00:03:41.479 It is a strategical platform that solved great importance to 61 00:03:41.520 --> 00:03:45.400 the church because it's broadcast across the entire world. Some 62 00:03:45.439 --> 00:03:49.080 of the Muslim speakers have followers that go into the millions. 63 00:03:49.560 --> 00:03:52.639 You're never going to have an opportunity to evangelize that 64 00:03:52.719 --> 00:03:57.400 many Muslims in one go, all that many people in 65 00:03:57.479 --> 00:03:59.879 one go. It's a fantastic opportunity. It does speak to 66 00:03:59.879 --> 00:04:03.240 a certain kind of person, the person who weighs truth 67 00:04:03.360 --> 00:04:06.400 by which which person seems to win the argument, which 68 00:04:06.439 --> 00:04:09.000 is not necessarily the best way of weighing what is true, 69 00:04:09.800 --> 00:04:12.639 But it does speak to that kind of person. And 70 00:04:12.680 --> 00:04:17.240 it's a platform I recognize the strategic importance of and 71 00:04:17.439 --> 00:04:20.120 you know, it's one that the church needs to So 72 00:04:20.560 --> 00:04:23.040 that's why I go there. And you know, I go 73 00:04:23.120 --> 00:04:27.879 there to to basically to evangelize the Christian faith and 74 00:04:27.920 --> 00:04:31.439 to stand against those that are opponents to the Christian Faith. 75 00:04:31.720 --> 00:04:34.040 And it just so happens because of the demographics of 76 00:04:34.079 --> 00:04:37.240 speakers corner and the demographics around speakers corner that that 77 00:04:37.319 --> 00:04:40.439 tends to be Muslims. Because I have a love and 78 00:04:40.439 --> 00:04:43.399 a passion for anyway, because I became a Christian because 79 00:04:43.399 --> 00:04:46.920 of a Muslim, and I have done lots of evangelism 80 00:04:46.920 --> 00:04:52.680 amongst Muslims my whole life, and it's something that I 81 00:04:52.759 --> 00:04:55.920 care very greatly for them as a people. I want 82 00:04:55.959 --> 00:04:58.879 them to know the truth of our Lord, to be 83 00:04:58.959 --> 00:05:01.160 as disciples like a everyone else to be. And I 84 00:05:01.160 --> 00:05:04.279 feel that God has placed that that calling, that desire 85 00:05:04.319 --> 00:05:06.879 on my heart. Yeah, as a basic. 86 00:05:06.639 --> 00:05:07.920 Intrum, that's interesting. 87 00:05:08.360 --> 00:05:11.160 Just two questions before on that, before we get into 88 00:05:11.160 --> 00:05:14.759 the other stuff, just out of curiosity. Did you have 89 00:05:14.839 --> 00:05:18.519 any training in philosophy or is your training mainly under 90 00:05:18.600 --> 00:05:19.879 Jsmith as an apologist? 91 00:05:19.879 --> 00:05:21.160 And I'm not trying to put you on the spot, 92 00:05:21.199 --> 00:05:21.519 I'm just. 93 00:05:21.480 --> 00:05:24.759 Curious if you did you did you study rhetoric and 94 00:05:24.839 --> 00:05:27.240 debate or did you just focus on apologetics. 95 00:05:27.360 --> 00:05:30.600 I think everything that I everything that I do in 96 00:05:30.680 --> 00:05:34.439 terms of debate, is something that I've just done through experience. 97 00:05:35.079 --> 00:05:38.959 Like I you'll often hear me talk about the DOWA 98 00:05:39.079 --> 00:05:41.720 team using a script, and the reason why I describe 99 00:05:41.720 --> 00:05:44.319 it as a script is because invariably Muslims say the 100 00:05:44.360 --> 00:05:46.839 same arguments the same way over and over and over 101 00:05:46.879 --> 00:05:48.839 and over and over and over again. And when you've 102 00:05:48.839 --> 00:05:52.279 been around that circuit a number of times, you kind 103 00:05:52.279 --> 00:05:54.199 of know what's going to be said before it's said, 104 00:05:54.800 --> 00:06:00.000 and you develop responses to that, and you also pick up, 105 00:06:00.160 --> 00:06:04.439 like you know, little tactics of rhetoric and stuff like that. 106 00:06:04.480 --> 00:06:07.040 But no, I've not had any formal training. I did 107 00:06:07.560 --> 00:06:11.360 study in my first year at university philosophy, but I 108 00:06:11.480 --> 00:06:15.759 went on to specialize in religious studies as I felt 109 00:06:15.759 --> 00:06:18.839 that was more important. I also studied physics in my 110 00:06:18.879 --> 00:06:22.480 first year as well, and philosophy obviously, the study of 111 00:06:22.480 --> 00:06:26.879 philosophy obviously introduces you to argumentation and the idea of 112 00:06:26.920 --> 00:06:30.079 constructing an argument, but I'm not a particularly formal training now. 113 00:06:30.839 --> 00:06:36.040 Yeah, well, actually, just being in the sphere of debating 114 00:06:36.040 --> 00:06:38.439 and doing that a lot is really how you get 115 00:06:39.360 --> 00:06:41.439 good at debating. I mean, that's the way I mean 116 00:06:41.480 --> 00:06:44.079 we started when I was in college. We would go 117 00:06:44.120 --> 00:06:45.040 out on campus and we. 118 00:06:45.040 --> 00:06:47.439 Would debate the atheists, we would debate the Buddhists, we. 119 00:06:47.399 --> 00:06:50.120 Would debate all the different groups that we found on 120 00:06:50.160 --> 00:06:51.519 campus that were willing to do debates. 121 00:06:51.560 --> 00:06:52.720 And so just doing that. 122 00:06:52.639 --> 00:06:56.279 Constantly, going to coffee shops, going to atheist defense and 123 00:06:56.639 --> 00:06:59.560 having the debates is really the best way to learn 124 00:06:59.600 --> 00:07:01.399 to debate and to get good at it, because, like 125 00:07:01.399 --> 00:07:03.639 you said, it's kind of the same with atheism. You'll 126 00:07:03.680 --> 00:07:06.240 notice that you hear the same kind of rehash things 127 00:07:06.279 --> 00:07:07.560 over and over and over. So a lot of times 128 00:07:07.560 --> 00:07:09.480 people ask me, do you get nervous before you debate 129 00:07:09.480 --> 00:07:12.279 an atheists? No, and it's not because oh I've got 130 00:07:12.399 --> 00:07:14.360 such a high IQ and it's not anything like that. 131 00:07:14.439 --> 00:07:16.120 The reason I'm not nervous about it is because I 132 00:07:16.120 --> 00:07:20.160 already know all of the limited number of iterations of 133 00:07:20.199 --> 00:07:23.120 the atheist argument that I'm going to hear. And by 134 00:07:23.160 --> 00:07:26.160 the way, it's funny you said that about an Islamic 135 00:07:26.199 --> 00:07:29.199 apologist or guy getting you into Christianity. There was a 136 00:07:30.040 --> 00:07:32.639 Job's Witness girl that I knew when I was about 137 00:07:32.680 --> 00:07:34.800 eighteen and I was new to Christianity. I was new 138 00:07:34.839 --> 00:07:38.399 to reading the Bible. I just read the Beatitudes at 139 00:07:38.399 --> 00:07:40.240 the time, and I met this Joe's Witness girl and 140 00:07:40.279 --> 00:07:42.040 I think she was really intent on bringing me into 141 00:07:42.079 --> 00:07:44.000 the Joe's Witnesses and so. 142 00:07:43.839 --> 00:07:45.800 She sent me all these texts. 143 00:07:45.800 --> 00:07:47.879 She's like, how do you respond to this verse that 144 00:07:48.160 --> 00:07:51.319 shows that Jesus is a creature? And so that actually 145 00:07:51.399 --> 00:07:54.800 kicked me off into apologetics. Was another you know, sort 146 00:07:54.800 --> 00:08:01.720 of anti trinitarian group. So that's in counter entering challenges 147 00:08:01.759 --> 00:08:03.560 are actually good ways to you know. 148 00:08:03.600 --> 00:08:08.720 Iron absolutely, and I think I think I think Christians, 149 00:08:08.839 --> 00:08:11.240 you know, if there's any Christian out there who's thinking about, 150 00:08:11.480 --> 00:08:12.920 you know, how do I get good at this? The 151 00:08:12.959 --> 00:08:16.040 answer is start doing it, you know, and and but 152 00:08:16.199 --> 00:08:19.360 have the humility to learn from your mistakes and to 153 00:08:19.360 --> 00:08:22.759 to learn like I'll often sit there and I'll listen 154 00:08:22.800 --> 00:08:27.079 to presentations by others and noting down good arguments as 155 00:08:27.079 --> 00:08:30.399 I hear them, and imagining how I might then use 156 00:08:30.439 --> 00:08:35.559 them in argument myself. In what circumstance might I use 157 00:08:35.600 --> 00:08:37.080 a particular line of argument? 158 00:08:37.480 --> 00:08:37.720 You know. 159 00:08:37.799 --> 00:08:42.039 And it's just a case of study practice failure, study 160 00:08:42.159 --> 00:08:46.759 practice success, study practice failure, study practice success. And this 161 00:08:46.919 --> 00:08:50.399 process refinds you in terms of your ability to do it. 162 00:08:50.399 --> 00:08:54.159 But evangelism is one of the callings of our Lord, 163 00:08:54.240 --> 00:08:57.879 and and it's something that we have to do, you know. 164 00:08:58.039 --> 00:09:00.799 And there are different styles of evangelism. Me and you 165 00:09:00.840 --> 00:09:05.720 go for the more direct, academic, debate confrontational style of evangelism. 166 00:09:06.559 --> 00:09:09.360 It won't speak to everybody, but it speaks to some. 167 00:09:10.320 --> 00:09:13.159 But most importantly, the kind of style of debate that 168 00:09:13.200 --> 00:09:15.279 you and I do is the kind of thing that 169 00:09:15.360 --> 00:09:19.960 influences cultures. It's the kind of the kind of debate 170 00:09:20.000 --> 00:09:23.879 that can influence decision makers, the kind of debate that 171 00:09:23.919 --> 00:09:27.840 can influence people in authority. It might not win over 172 00:09:28.320 --> 00:09:31.200 masses of people, maybe apart from some people who are 173 00:09:31.240 --> 00:09:35.480 rigulous and intellectual and follow the evidence where it leads, 174 00:09:36.759 --> 00:09:39.679 but it can influence people, and it can influence cultures. 175 00:09:39.720 --> 00:09:41.879 So it's really important that the Church is present in 176 00:09:41.919 --> 00:09:44.879 the intellectual debate and not absconding from it for the 177 00:09:44.919 --> 00:09:47.919 sake of doing more socially based evangelism. 178 00:09:48.279 --> 00:09:49.879 You know, yeah, I think you're right. 179 00:09:49.879 --> 00:09:52.639 I mean, all the church fathers, all the great apologists 180 00:09:52.639 --> 00:09:55.360 who really hammered out the Doctor of the Trinity, for example, 181 00:09:55.879 --> 00:09:58.399 in the early centuries, they were apologists. They were doing 182 00:09:58.399 --> 00:10:03.279 apologetics against various groups that already you know, in the third, fourth, fifth, 183 00:10:03.320 --> 00:10:07.559 sixth centuries were denying Christology, denying the Trinity, denying the 184 00:10:07.600 --> 00:10:09.919 full Deity of Christ, denying the deity. 185 00:10:09.679 --> 00:10:10.360 The Holy Spirit. 186 00:10:10.960 --> 00:10:14.440 Saint Basil comes to mind as somebody who's very important 187 00:10:14.480 --> 00:10:17.039 in that role. But yeah, I mean, if we're not 188 00:10:17.039 --> 00:10:19.519 doing apologetics, then we're not doing what we're actually called 189 00:10:19.519 --> 00:10:22.080 to do, because that's part of evangelisman. Absolutely right, And 190 00:10:22.120 --> 00:10:24.279 as Paul says, all things to all men. So we 191 00:10:24.320 --> 00:10:26.360 want to speak to the academic, We want to speak 192 00:10:26.399 --> 00:10:28.559 to the average Joe. We want to speak to everybody 193 00:10:28.879 --> 00:10:31.360 as best we can, and God gifts us all with. 194 00:10:31.320 --> 00:10:32.960 Different gifts to be able to do that. 195 00:10:33.159 --> 00:10:35.879 So you want to move on now to the topics 196 00:10:35.960 --> 00:10:39.240 of like your experiences of what are some of I 197 00:10:39.320 --> 00:10:42.480 know that Lewis sent me, for example, about fifteen I've 198 00:10:42.559 --> 00:10:44.840 encountered some of these, but you have had way more 199 00:10:44.879 --> 00:10:48.480 experience debating people in the realm of Islam, and I've 200 00:10:48.480 --> 00:10:50.559 only had a limited experience with us. I've had one 201 00:10:50.559 --> 00:10:52.840 debate with Paul, and then I've had four or five 202 00:10:52.879 --> 00:10:56.879 debates with people in my discord who had various views 203 00:10:56.879 --> 00:10:59.559 on Islam. I never could get the exact view of Islam. 204 00:10:59.600 --> 00:11:01.799 So my first question to you before we launch into 205 00:11:01.799 --> 00:11:04.440 those texts is that, so in my limited experience of 206 00:11:04.480 --> 00:11:08.320 debating Muslims, when I bring up the topic of the 207 00:11:08.360 --> 00:11:12.200 trinity or divine simplicity, I actually have gotten five different 208 00:11:12.320 --> 00:11:17.120 views just from five different random Islamic debaters. 209 00:11:17.759 --> 00:11:18.879 Is that the norm with you? 210 00:11:18.960 --> 00:11:20.919 Do you find that they they when you get to 211 00:11:20.960 --> 00:11:22.919 a really I know you talk about them sort of 212 00:11:23.000 --> 00:11:25.200 running on a script, but when you get really precise 213 00:11:25.240 --> 00:11:27.879 on certain things, I've not been able to nail down 214 00:11:28.039 --> 00:11:31.600 exactly what the Islamic view of divine simplicity is or 215 00:11:31.720 --> 00:11:35.799 this doctrine is. It seems to sort of morph and 216 00:11:36.159 --> 00:11:38.679 transform based on who you're talking to. 217 00:11:39.759 --> 00:11:43.559 Well, yeah, I mean, my experience of debating with Muslims 218 00:11:43.559 --> 00:11:45.919 at the corner is that depending on who they're talking to, 219 00:11:46.080 --> 00:11:51.600 the same person will will wax on what they understand 220 00:11:51.600 --> 00:11:54.639 about the Trinity. And a perfect example of that would 221 00:11:54.720 --> 00:11:58.480 be Hashian, who knows very who actually is quite erudite 222 00:11:58.480 --> 00:12:02.600 and educated about what Christian doctrine is, but sometimes he 223 00:12:02.679 --> 00:12:06.039 will he will feign a level of ignorance that he 224 00:12:06.080 --> 00:12:10.840 doesn't actually have about the Trinity because it will help 225 00:12:10.919 --> 00:12:14.120 him to make a point. So you'll often hear Muslims 226 00:12:14.240 --> 00:12:20.000 the same Muslims say to a Christian like myself when 227 00:12:20.039 --> 00:12:24.559 they're you know, surrounded by a more eradi audience, that 228 00:12:24.639 --> 00:12:27.519 they know that Christians believe in one God, but then 229 00:12:27.600 --> 00:12:29.759 say that there are issues with that concept of their 230 00:12:29.759 --> 00:12:32.960 belief in one God. But if they're speaking to someone 231 00:12:33.000 --> 00:12:34.679 who's a bit more of a pushover and a bit 232 00:12:34.720 --> 00:12:37.600 more ignorant, and they can feel that they'll they'll they'll 233 00:12:37.639 --> 00:12:40.639 just say, well, you Christians believe in three gods. And 234 00:12:40.679 --> 00:12:42.519 it's kind of like, depending on who they're talking to, 235 00:12:42.679 --> 00:12:47.279 they actually change what they say in terms of their critique. 236 00:12:47.600 --> 00:12:50.639 And I've seen that very clearly with people like Chansi 237 00:12:50.679 --> 00:12:54.320 and Hashim, and there's there's no consistency in their intellectual 238 00:12:54.320 --> 00:12:57.480 critique of the Christian faith. You know, they'll they'll on 239 00:12:57.519 --> 00:13:00.279 the one hand, they'll say that Christians believe in three odds, 240 00:13:00.279 --> 00:13:02.080 but then on the next hand, depending on who they're 241 00:13:02.080 --> 00:13:05.279 talking to, we know that you Christians believe in one God. 242 00:13:05.799 --> 00:13:07.759 So it's kind of like they can't seem to make 243 00:13:07.840 --> 00:13:09.559 their mind at what we believe. And I think the 244 00:13:09.639 --> 00:13:13.039 reason for that is because the Koran, they're trying to 245 00:13:13.399 --> 00:13:15.360 hold to the fact that you've got a modern education 246 00:13:15.440 --> 00:13:18.240 where information is readily available, so anyone can learn that 247 00:13:18.320 --> 00:13:20.480 Christians believe in one God. But then you've got what 248 00:13:20.519 --> 00:13:22.799 the Kuran says, which is in total era, where it 249 00:13:22.840 --> 00:13:25.759 says that Christians believe in three gods. And they're trying 250 00:13:25.799 --> 00:13:31.399 to balance these two forces together for political gain, as 251 00:13:31.399 --> 00:13:33.159 it were, within the arguments. 252 00:13:33.679 --> 00:13:35.799 What about when you're when you're getting them to be 253 00:13:35.840 --> 00:13:38.240 precise about their doctrines, though, because that's kind of the 254 00:13:38.279 --> 00:13:38.840 approach of. 255 00:13:40.360 --> 00:13:43.440 Apologetics that I often do is critiquing not just the 256 00:13:43.600 --> 00:13:46.000 arguments that is that are being presented, but the actual 257 00:13:46.039 --> 00:13:49.279 worldview of the other of the person. Have you found 258 00:13:49.360 --> 00:13:52.399 them to lay out a consistent doctrine, for example, of 259 00:13:53.039 --> 00:13:55.559 the unity and subplicity of God, Because again, I've heard 260 00:13:55.679 --> 00:13:59.759 multiple different doctrines of the of what God's unity and 261 00:13:59.799 --> 00:14:02.120 plasity actually is. And the reason I bring it up 262 00:14:02.159 --> 00:14:06.360 is that that's ironic because when they're refuting, are attempting 263 00:14:06.399 --> 00:14:08.559 to refute the Doctor in the Trinity that it's polytheism 264 00:14:08.639 --> 00:14:11.320 and all this. When I turn the argument around and 265 00:14:11.440 --> 00:14:13.639 get them to try to explain to me how they 266 00:14:13.720 --> 00:14:16.759 conceive of unity and multiplicity and relationship to God, I 267 00:14:16.759 --> 00:14:20.559 don't actually hear a coherent response. I hear five ten 268 00:14:20.639 --> 00:14:24.200 different doctrines of what God's unity and simplicity is amongst Islam. 269 00:14:24.240 --> 00:14:26.200 And I'm just wondering if your experience is that they 270 00:14:27.000 --> 00:14:32.159 do they actually present a consistent Islamic theology. I don't 271 00:14:32.200 --> 00:14:33.960 hear that in their system. 272 00:14:34.360 --> 00:14:38.759 Yeah, and I think that's fair, But you've got to understand, Jay, 273 00:14:38.759 --> 00:14:41.960 there's very few people that would tentatively and try to 274 00:14:42.039 --> 00:14:47.000 engage with Christian sorry with Muslims on their own theology. 275 00:14:47.080 --> 00:14:50.759 You know, we Christians, particularly in the West, are a 276 00:14:50.879 --> 00:14:54.399 disadvantage in the sense that Islam is relatively new to 277 00:14:54.480 --> 00:14:58.120 our shores, and so engaging with it intellectually is something 278 00:14:58.159 --> 00:15:02.440 that we're not particularly coherent with or or or well 279 00:15:02.440 --> 00:15:06.279 at first. You know, we are in a position to 280 00:15:06.320 --> 00:15:09.360 do that with Jehovah's witnesses, or with Mormons, or but 281 00:15:09.559 --> 00:15:12.879 not so much with Islam, partly because all their texts 282 00:15:13.000 --> 00:15:16.080 are primarily in Arabic or foreign languages that we can't read, 283 00:15:16.799 --> 00:15:19.600 and so it's only as these these texts are starting 284 00:15:19.639 --> 00:15:22.200 to be translated that we're able to start wrestling with 285 00:15:22.759 --> 00:15:28.159 their vision of God. And the inconsistencies are now becoming 286 00:15:28.200 --> 00:15:31.200 more and more apparent, and the perfectly most obvious one 287 00:15:31.240 --> 00:15:34.600 which will definitely come into shortly, is this idea that 288 00:15:34.639 --> 00:15:37.480 God can't enter into his creation. You know, Muslims have 289 00:15:37.559 --> 00:15:40.320 been having a field day challenging Christians about how can 290 00:15:40.440 --> 00:15:43.679 the infinite become finite and how can the all powerful 291 00:15:43.759 --> 00:15:47.840 become limited and become God? But yet when and as 292 00:15:47.960 --> 00:15:51.600 and then they present to the ignorant this idea that 293 00:15:51.600 --> 00:15:54.120 that God doesn't enter into his creation. But yet when 294 00:15:54.120 --> 00:15:59.039 you read Islamic texts, it's so clearly apparent that Allah 295 00:15:59.159 --> 00:16:03.600 enters into creation, and so all of their arguments against 296 00:16:03.600 --> 00:16:08.919 our incarnational beliefs collapse when you start pinning them down. 297 00:16:09.519 --> 00:16:15.279 But I think also within Islamic circles themselves, Islam doesn't 298 00:16:15.279 --> 00:16:17.720 have the same emphasis on theology as the Church does. 299 00:16:18.320 --> 00:16:23.399 We Christians define our identity by our doctrine, whereas Islam 300 00:16:23.480 --> 00:16:26.279 is very much more focused on the idea of obedience 301 00:16:26.399 --> 00:16:30.159 to laws and the obedience of five pillars. So it's 302 00:16:30.200 --> 00:16:33.480 much more about praxis than it is about theology. And 303 00:16:33.519 --> 00:16:36.080 that means that you know, Muslims don't engage with that 304 00:16:36.159 --> 00:16:39.440 kind of discussion deeply. But I think the kind of 305 00:16:39.480 --> 00:16:42.159 debates that we need to be having are pressing in 306 00:16:42.200 --> 00:16:45.120 on their theology, are pressing in on their doctrines. Yeah, 307 00:16:45.120 --> 00:16:49.679 because actually it's loaded with inconsistencies given the rhetoric that 308 00:16:49.720 --> 00:16:51.320 they use against the Christian faith. 309 00:16:51.759 --> 00:16:55.080 Let's get to some of those inconsistencies before. Let's start 310 00:16:55.120 --> 00:16:58.679 with some of their polemical critiques of us and their arguments, 311 00:16:58.679 --> 00:17:01.159 and then we'll move to some of the key inconsistencies 312 00:17:01.159 --> 00:17:03.799 that you are familiar with and that you've encountered. So 313 00:17:04.240 --> 00:17:08.039 I like that main point though, because God entering into 314 00:17:08.240 --> 00:17:11.160 time and space and that being a problem in their theology. 315 00:17:12.279 --> 00:17:14.240 That's kind of where many of the debates in my 316 00:17:14.279 --> 00:17:17.279 discord with Muslims led to, because we when we come 317 00:17:17.319 --> 00:17:19.960 to the issue of how does the Quran actually convey 318 00:17:20.039 --> 00:17:22.799 truths about God within time and space? That's kind of 319 00:17:22.839 --> 00:17:26.920 really where the rubber hits the road for difficulty for them. 320 00:17:27.000 --> 00:17:30.079 But they've not thought through, They've not thought through the 321 00:17:30.079 --> 00:17:33.599 implications of what the Kuran actually says visit verse that. 322 00:17:33.599 --> 00:17:34.839 That's a good point. Okay, so. 323 00:17:36.440 --> 00:17:38.440 Let's see what are Let's say one of the first 324 00:17:39.160 --> 00:17:42.400 things that you usually hear is something like, well, of 325 00:17:42.480 --> 00:17:46.599 Jesus is God, then he died and God can't die, 326 00:17:46.640 --> 00:17:49.200 so Christianity is a false religion. Is this one of 327 00:17:49.200 --> 00:17:50.680 the most common that you're here? I mean, I've heard 328 00:17:50.680 --> 00:17:52.279 it not I don't even do many of these debates 329 00:17:52.319 --> 00:17:53.200 with it with Muslims. 330 00:17:53.200 --> 00:17:54.559 I've heard it like five times already. 331 00:17:55.480 --> 00:17:58.000 Yeah, I mean, it's it's it's it's a common argument 332 00:17:58.079 --> 00:18:01.839 that's used and it's based upon You've got to you've 333 00:18:01.839 --> 00:18:04.039 got to understand that all of their arguments. All the 334 00:18:04.160 --> 00:18:06.559 arguments that are used by Muslims are aimed at the 335 00:18:06.599 --> 00:18:10.480 idea of proving that Christ was not God. That is 336 00:18:10.519 --> 00:18:16.359 the driving point behind virtually all of these kinds of arguments. 337 00:18:18.480 --> 00:18:22.920 So so they're denying the incarnation. So fundamentally, it's because 338 00:18:22.960 --> 00:18:26.079 they are not engaging with the idea of the incarnation 339 00:18:26.680 --> 00:18:31.000 that this this kind of argument is being made and 340 00:18:31.039 --> 00:18:34.200 they are unwilling to engage with that. So, for example, 341 00:18:34.279 --> 00:18:36.480 and I want this not to be sort of me 342 00:18:36.599 --> 00:18:40.160 doing a seminar, but to us to have a discussion, 343 00:18:40.160 --> 00:18:42.200 because I know that you have a lot of very 344 00:18:43.039 --> 00:18:47.759 interesting philosophical angles that you can bring to these kinds 345 00:18:47.759 --> 00:18:50.400 of conversations. So I want this to be a bit 346 00:18:50.440 --> 00:18:53.480 of a ping pong really to to look at how, 347 00:18:54.319 --> 00:18:57.960 you know, silly some of these arguments are. And thus 348 00:18:58.039 --> 00:19:00.759 while you're talking, it allows me to find some of 349 00:19:00.759 --> 00:19:02.839 the passages that I'm looking for. 350 00:19:03.000 --> 00:19:06.279 Okay, well, yeah, I would say my response to this 351 00:19:06.319 --> 00:19:11.000 would be, this is a misunderstanding of what our doctrine 352 00:19:11.000 --> 00:19:11.640 of Christ is. 353 00:19:11.680 --> 00:19:13.079 So we believe that Christ. 354 00:19:12.839 --> 00:19:16.160 Possesses two natures, so he's always possessed that divine nature 355 00:19:16.200 --> 00:19:19.759 from all eternity, because he's a divine person or divine hypostasis. 356 00:19:19.799 --> 00:19:22.839 So these kind of confusing terms that we use are 357 00:19:23.039 --> 00:19:27.160 therefore reason So terms like hypostasis times, terms like ussia 358 00:19:27.279 --> 00:19:29.839 or nature in the Greek and the News that are 359 00:19:30.000 --> 00:19:32.880 actually used in the New Testament, they for us are 360 00:19:32.880 --> 00:19:36.839 the models of how we understand these doctrines. So Christ, 361 00:19:36.920 --> 00:19:39.359 when he became incarnate, he was the second person of 362 00:19:39.400 --> 00:19:42.200 the Godhead from all eternity well, a fully divine nature. 363 00:19:42.559 --> 00:19:45.920 And when he assumed human nature, he never destroyed or 364 00:19:46.079 --> 00:19:50.160 lost his divinity. He didn't destroy or lose the full humanity. 365 00:19:50.519 --> 00:19:54.440 He possesses both of those natures in perfect union, and 366 00:19:54.480 --> 00:19:58.440 they're not destroyed. They're not they're not absolved, they're not molded. 367 00:19:58.960 --> 00:20:03.480 They're always in union and yet always still retaining, as 368 00:20:03.480 --> 00:20:05.680 we say, there created natural properties. 369 00:20:05.680 --> 00:20:07.400 And so when we speak of the death of. 370 00:20:07.400 --> 00:20:10.839 Christ, there's a one of our great theologians, Saint John Damascus, 371 00:20:10.880 --> 00:20:12.839 has a great section in book three The Exposition of 372 00:20:12.839 --> 00:20:16.119 the Orthodox Faith, where he talks about the death of Christ. 373 00:20:16.839 --> 00:20:18.519 Pertaining to his human nature. 374 00:20:18.599 --> 00:20:22.880 So Christ absolutely did undergo death in his humanity, and 375 00:20:22.960 --> 00:20:26.200 so his body was his soul was severed from his 376 00:20:26.279 --> 00:20:29.519 body in that death, but his divine nature remains and 377 00:20:29.599 --> 00:20:33.799 always remained impassable, and that means unchangeable, unalterable. So the 378 00:20:33.839 --> 00:20:39.079 divinity underwent no change. God can himself cannot change, He 379 00:20:39.079 --> 00:20:40.440 cannot be altered, he can't. 380 00:20:40.240 --> 00:20:42.000 Be destroyed, he can't die. 381 00:20:42.200 --> 00:20:44.200 But so when you see in the Church fathers, or 382 00:20:44.480 --> 00:20:47.680 even in scripture at times, there's phraseology that we use 383 00:20:47.759 --> 00:20:51.319 that's called appropriation. One of our other great theologians, Saint 384 00:20:51.359 --> 00:20:54.680 Cyril of Alexandria, called this the communication of properties. 385 00:20:54.720 --> 00:20:56.759 And what this means is that anything that's true of 386 00:20:56.799 --> 00:20:57.279 one of. 387 00:20:57.279 --> 00:21:02.519 Christ's nature's such as eating, drinking, dying, that's true of 388 00:21:02.559 --> 00:21:07.720 his humanity, can also be spoken of the whole Christ. Right, 389 00:21:07.799 --> 00:21:13.680 so walking on water, changing water into wine, that is, 390 00:21:13.880 --> 00:21:19.359 somebody came to my door, So that's true of his divinity. 391 00:21:19.920 --> 00:21:23.400 But because Christ is one divine hypostasis from all eternity 392 00:21:23.400 --> 00:21:26.680 who assumed human nature, whatever we say we can attribute 393 00:21:26.720 --> 00:21:28.519 to the whole Christ, and we mean it in a 394 00:21:28.640 --> 00:21:31.680 linguistic way without destroying it's a real It's true. It's 395 00:21:31.759 --> 00:21:34.200 not saying that it's just linguistic. But we can say 396 00:21:34.240 --> 00:21:37.599 God died without meaning that the divine nature died, right, 397 00:21:37.640 --> 00:21:41.880 So Christ as the single sole subject, they're present at 398 00:21:41.920 --> 00:21:46.839 his crucifixion. Christ's divine hypostasis underwent the experience of death 399 00:21:46.920 --> 00:21:49.319 in his human nature. But that does not mean that 400 00:21:49.400 --> 00:21:51.480 he as a divine person, died. And I would just 401 00:21:51.519 --> 00:21:55.000