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Speaker 1: So anyway, Bob has his channel and he has Soco films.

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I've got the Soco films link below. Bob, tell us

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about you first, tell us what your the context of

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our chat today, your background, what you're comfortable talking about,

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and how you got into speakers, corners.

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Speaker 2: Debates and anything else you want to tell us about you.

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Speaker 3: Okay, I became a Christian because of Muslim who he

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tried to convert me to Islam when I was at school.

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He was a big fan of Acmedi Dat and he

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just assumed that everyone who was white and English was

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a Christian, and so he tried to, you know, use

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all of these kinds of arguments on me. And I

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came from a working class background and my family, much

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like lots of English working class, had this kind of

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notion that they were Church of England. You know, they

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were Christian because at baptisms they would baptize their children,

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At weddings they would go to church, and at funerals

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they would get a priest to come and say some

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nice words before sticking people in the ground. Without any

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real faith or without any real understanding of what it

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means to be a disciple of all Jesus christ And

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so when my Muslim friend tried to attack the Christian faith,

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I thought he was attacking something English. So I led

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to its defense in ignorance. Just to give you a

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level of my starting point. In one of these discussions

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that I remember because of how embarrassing it was, he said,

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he said, let's test how much you know. And he

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asked me, you know, what's the first book of the Bible?

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I didn't know, and someone said Genesis. And then he said, well,

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what's the second book of the Bible? I didn't know,

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and someone said Genesis too, and I just said, yes,

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Genesis two. So that just tells you how little I

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actually knew that correct. Yeah, So I started looking into it.

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I started learning about all of these apologetics and polemics,

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and then I remember through a Christian Church of Summer

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mission that I did in London, I came into contact

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with a guy called Jay Smith, who is a wonderful

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polemicist and apologist from America, and he really inspired me.

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He was the first time that I'd met someone who

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was doing evangelism to Muslims in the same way that

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I was. So I went to Speaker's Corner a couple

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of times and then when I lived in London years

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and years ago, I used to irregularly visit Speaker's Corner

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and then you know, life took me on a certain

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course which led me back to the question of considering

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my vocation and how to do that, and that led

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me to London and I wanted to get involved in

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supporting Jay Smith at Speaker's Corner. And the week that

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I went to finding because I knew where he hanged

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out before he went to Speakers Corner, he told me

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he was leaving. So he was leaving and going back

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to America, and he doesn't speak as Corner for decades

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and been one of the sole voices making a commendable

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defense of the faith down there, and he was leaving.

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And his first week that he wasn't at the Corner

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that you could tell the Dower team was in glee

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at the thought of not having Jay theirs and his

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booming voice. It was my first week there and I'd

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been going solidly to speak as Corner for about two years.

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It is a strategical platform that solved great importance to

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the church because it's broadcast across the entire world. Some

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of the Muslim speakers have followers that go into the millions.

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You're never going to have an opportunity to evangelize that

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many Muslims in one go, all that many people in

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one go. It's a fantastic opportunity. It does speak to

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a certain kind of person, the person who weighs truth

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by which which person seems to win the argument, which

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is not necessarily the best way of weighing what is true,

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But it does speak to that kind of person. And

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it's a platform I recognize the strategic importance of and

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you know, it's one that the church needs to So

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that's why I go there. And you know, I go

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there to to basically to evangelize the Christian faith and

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to stand against those that are opponents to the Christian Faith.

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And it just so happens because of the demographics of

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speakers corner and the demographics around speakers corner that that

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tends to be Muslims. Because I have a love and

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a passion for anyway, because I became a Christian because

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of a Muslim, and I have done lots of evangelism

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amongst Muslims my whole life, and it's something that I

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care very greatly for them as a people. I want

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them to know the truth of our Lord, to be

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as disciples like a everyone else to be. And I

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feel that God has placed that that calling, that desire

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on my heart. Yeah, as a basic.

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Speaker 2: Intrum, that's interesting.

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Speaker 1: Just two questions before on that, before we get into

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the other stuff, just out of curiosity. Did you have

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any training in philosophy or is your training mainly under

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Jsmith as an apologist?

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Speaker 2: And I'm not trying to put you on the spot,

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I'm just.

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Speaker 1: Curious if you did you did you study rhetoric and

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debate or did you just focus on apologetics.

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Speaker 3: I think everything that I everything that I do in

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terms of debate, is something that I've just done through experience.

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Like I you'll often hear me talk about the DOWA

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team using a script, and the reason why I describe

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it as a script is because invariably Muslims say the

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same arguments the same way over and over and over

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and over and over and over again. And when you've

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been around that circuit a number of times, you kind

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of know what's going to be said before it's said,

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and you develop responses to that, and you also pick up,

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like you know, little tactics of rhetoric and stuff like that.

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But no, I've not had any formal training. I did

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study in my first year at university philosophy, but I

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went on to specialize in religious studies as I felt

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that was more important. I also studied physics in my

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first year as well, and philosophy obviously, the study of

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philosophy obviously introduces you to argumentation and the idea of

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constructing an argument, but I'm not a particularly formal training now.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, well, actually, just being in the sphere of debating

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and doing that a lot is really how you get

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good at debating. I mean, that's the way I mean

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we started when I was in college. We would go

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out on campus and we.

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Speaker 2: Would debate the atheists, we would debate the Buddhists, we.

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Speaker 1: Would debate all the different groups that we found on

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campus that were willing to do debates.

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Speaker 2: And so just doing that.

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Speaker 1: Constantly, going to coffee shops, going to atheist defense and

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having the debates is really the best way to learn

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to debate and to get good at it, because, like

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you said, it's kind of the same with atheism. You'll

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notice that you hear the same kind of rehash things

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over and over and over. So a lot of times

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people ask me, do you get nervous before you debate

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an atheists? No, and it's not because oh I've got

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such a high IQ and it's not anything like that.

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The reason I'm not nervous about it is because I

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already know all of the limited number of iterations of

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the atheist argument that I'm going to hear. And by

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the way, it's funny you said that about an Islamic

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apologist or guy getting you into Christianity. There was a

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Job's Witness girl that I knew when I was about

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eighteen and I was new to Christianity. I was new

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to reading the Bible. I just read the Beatitudes at

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the time, and I met this Joe's Witness girl and

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I think she was really intent on bringing me into

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the Joe's Witnesses and so.

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Speaker 2: She sent me all these texts.

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Speaker 1: She's like, how do you respond to this verse that

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shows that Jesus is a creature? And so that actually

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kicked me off into apologetics. Was another you know, sort

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of anti trinitarian group. So that's in counter entering challenges

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are actually good ways to you know.

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Speaker 3: Iron absolutely, and I think I think I think Christians,

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you know, if there's any Christian out there who's thinking about,

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you know, how do I get good at this? The

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answer is start doing it, you know, and and but

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have the humility to learn from your mistakes and to

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to learn like I'll often sit there and I'll listen

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to presentations by others and noting down good arguments as

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I hear them, and imagining how I might then use

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them in argument myself. In what circumstance might I use

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a particular line of argument?

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Speaker 2: You know.

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Speaker 3: And it's just a case of study practice failure, study

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practice success, study practice failure, study practice success. And this

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process refinds you in terms of your ability to do it.

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But evangelism is one of the callings of our Lord,

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and and it's something that we have to do, you know.

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And there are different styles of evangelism. Me and you

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go for the more direct, academic, debate confrontational style of evangelism.

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It won't speak to everybody, but it speaks to some.

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But most importantly, the kind of style of debate that

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you and I do is the kind of thing that

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influences cultures. It's the kind of the kind of debate

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that can influence decision makers, the kind of debate that

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can influence people in authority. It might not win over

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masses of people, maybe apart from some people who are

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rigulous and intellectual and follow the evidence where it leads,

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but it can influence people, and it can influence cultures.

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So it's really important that the Church is present in

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the intellectual debate and not absconding from it for the

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sake of doing more socially based evangelism.

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Speaker 2: You know, yeah, I think you're right.

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Speaker 1: I mean, all the church fathers, all the great apologists

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who really hammered out the Doctor of the Trinity, for example,

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in the early centuries, they were apologists. They were doing

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apologetics against various groups that already you know, in the third, fourth, fifth,

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sixth centuries were denying Christology, denying the Trinity, denying the

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full Deity of Christ, denying the deity.

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Speaker 2: The Holy Spirit.

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Speaker 1: Saint Basil comes to mind as somebody who's very important

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in that role. But yeah, I mean, if we're not

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doing apologetics, then we're not doing what we're actually called

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to do, because that's part of evangelisman. Absolutely right, And

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as Paul says, all things to all men. So we

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want to speak to the academic, We want to speak

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to the average Joe. We want to speak to everybody

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as best we can, and God gifts us all with.

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Speaker 2: Different gifts to be able to do that.

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Speaker 1: So you want to move on now to the topics

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of like your experiences of what are some of I

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know that Lewis sent me, for example, about fifteen I've

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encountered some of these, but you have had way more

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experience debating people in the realm of Islam, and I've

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only had a limited experience with us. I've had one

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debate with Paul, and then I've had four or five

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debates with people in my discord who had various views

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on Islam. I never could get the exact view of Islam.

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So my first question to you before we launch into

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those texts is that, so in my limited experience of

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debating Muslims, when I bring up the topic of the

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trinity or divine simplicity, I actually have gotten five different

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views just from five different random Islamic debaters.

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Speaker 2: Is that the norm with you?

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Speaker 1: Do you find that they they when you get to

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a really I know you talk about them sort of

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running on a script, but when you get really precise

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on certain things, I've not been able to nail down

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exactly what the Islamic view of divine simplicity is or

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this doctrine is. It seems to sort of morph and

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transform based on who you're talking to.

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Speaker 3: Well, yeah, I mean, my experience of debating with Muslims

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at the corner is that depending on who they're talking to,

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the same person will will wax on what they understand

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about the Trinity. And a perfect example of that would

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be Hashian, who knows very who actually is quite erudite

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and educated about what Christian doctrine is, but sometimes he

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will he will feign a level of ignorance that he

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doesn't actually have about the Trinity because it will help

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him to make a point. So you'll often hear Muslims

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the same Muslims say to a Christian like myself when

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they're you know, surrounded by a more eradi audience, that

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they know that Christians believe in one God, but then

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say that there are issues with that concept of their

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belief in one God. But if they're speaking to someone

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who's a bit more of a pushover and a bit

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more ignorant, and they can feel that they'll they'll they'll

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just say, well, you Christians believe in three gods. And

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it's kind of like, depending on who they're talking to,

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they actually change what they say in terms of their critique.

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And I've seen that very clearly with people like Chansi

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and Hashim, and there's there's no consistency in their intellectual

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critique of the Christian faith. You know, they'll they'll on

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the one hand, they'll say that Christians believe in three odds,

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but then on the next hand, depending on who they're

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talking to, we know that you Christians believe in one God.

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So it's kind of like they can't seem to make

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their mind at what we believe. And I think the

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reason for that is because the Koran, they're trying to

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hold to the fact that you've got a modern education

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where information is readily available, so anyone can learn that

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Christians believe in one God. But then you've got what

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the Kuran says, which is in total era, where it

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says that Christians believe in three gods. And they're trying

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to balance these two forces together for political gain, as

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it were, within the arguments.

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Speaker 2: What about when you're when you're getting them to be

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precise about their doctrines, though, because that's kind of the

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approach of.

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Speaker 1: Apologetics that I often do is critiquing not just the

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arguments that is that are being presented, but the actual

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worldview of the other of the person. Have you found

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them to lay out a consistent doctrine, for example, of

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the unity and subplicity of God, Because again, I've heard

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multiple different doctrines of the of what God's unity and

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plasity actually is. And the reason I bring it up

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is that that's ironic because when they're refuting, are attempting

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to refute the Doctor in the Trinity that it's polytheism

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and all this. When I turn the argument around and

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get them to try to explain to me how they

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conceive of unity and multiplicity and relationship to God, I

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don't actually hear a coherent response. I hear five ten

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different doctrines of what God's unity and simplicity is amongst Islam.

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And I'm just wondering if your experience is that they

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do they actually present a consistent Islamic theology. I don't

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hear that in their system.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, and I think that's fair, But you've got to understand, Jay,

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there's very few people that would tentatively and try to

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engage with Christian sorry with Muslims on their own theology.

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You know, we Christians, particularly in the West, are a

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disadvantage in the sense that Islam is relatively new to

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our shores, and so engaging with it intellectually is something

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that we're not particularly coherent with or or or well

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at first. You know, we are in a position to

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do that with Jehovah's witnesses, or with Mormons, or but

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not so much with Islam, partly because all their texts

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are primarily in Arabic or foreign languages that we can't read,

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and so it's only as these these texts are starting

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to be translated that we're able to start wrestling with

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their vision of God. And the inconsistencies are now becoming

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more and more apparent, and the perfectly most obvious one

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which will definitely come into shortly, is this idea that

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God can't enter into his creation. You know, Muslims have

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been having a field day challenging Christians about how can

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the infinite become finite and how can the all powerful

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become limited and become God? But yet when and as

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and then they present to the ignorant this idea that

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that God doesn't enter into his creation. But yet when

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you read Islamic texts, it's so clearly apparent that Allah

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enters into creation, and so all of their arguments against

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our incarnational beliefs collapse when you start pinning them down.

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But I think also within Islamic circles themselves, Islam doesn't

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have the same emphasis on theology as the Church does.

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We Christians define our identity by our doctrine, whereas Islam

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is very much more focused on the idea of obedience

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to laws and the obedience of five pillars. So it's

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much more about praxis than it is about theology. And

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that means that you know, Muslims don't engage with that

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kind of discussion deeply. But I think the kind of

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debates that we need to be having are pressing in

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on their theology, are pressing in on their doctrines. Yeah,

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because actually it's loaded with inconsistencies given the rhetoric that

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they use against the Christian faith.

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Speaker 1: Let's get to some of those inconsistencies before. Let's start

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with some of their polemical critiques of us and their arguments,

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and then we'll move to some of the key inconsistencies

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that you are familiar with and that you've encountered. So

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I like that main point though, because God entering into

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time and space and that being a problem in their theology.

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That's kind of where many of the debates in my

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discord with Muslims led to, because we when we come

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to the issue of how does the Quran actually convey

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truths about God within time and space? That's kind of

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really where the rubber hits the road for difficulty for them.

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Speaker 3: But they've not thought through, They've not thought through the

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implications of what the Kuran actually says visit verse that.

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Speaker 2: That's a good point. Okay, so.

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Speaker 1: Let's see what are Let's say one of the first

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things that you usually hear is something like, well, of

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Jesus is God, then he died and God can't die,

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so Christianity is a false religion. Is this one of

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the most common that you're here? I mean, I've heard

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it not I don't even do many of these debates

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with it with Muslims.

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Speaker 2: I've heard it like five times already.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean, it's it's it's it's a common argument

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that's used and it's based upon You've got to you've

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got to understand that all of their arguments. All the

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arguments that are used by Muslims are aimed at the

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idea of proving that Christ was not God. That is

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the driving point behind virtually all of these kinds of arguments.

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So so they're denying the incarnation. So fundamentally, it's because

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they are not engaging with the idea of the incarnation

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that this this kind of argument is being made and

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they are unwilling to engage with that. So, for example,

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and I want this not to be sort of me

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doing a seminar, but to us to have a discussion,

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because I know that you have a lot of very

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interesting philosophical angles that you can bring to these kinds

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of conversations. So I want this to be a bit

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of a ping pong really to to look at how,

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you know, silly some of these arguments are. And thus

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while you're talking, it allows me to find some of

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the passages that I'm looking for.

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Speaker 1: Okay, well, yeah, I would say my response to this

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would be, this is a misunderstanding of what our doctrine

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of Christ is.

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Speaker 2: So we believe that Christ.

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Speaker 1: Possesses two natures, so he's always possessed that divine nature

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from all eternity, because he's a divine person or divine hypostasis.

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So these kind of confusing terms that we use are

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therefore reason So terms like hypostasis times, terms like ussia

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or nature in the Greek and the News that are

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actually used in the New Testament, they for us are

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the models of how we understand these doctrines. So Christ,

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when he became incarnate, he was the second person of

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the Godhead from all eternity well, a fully divine nature.

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And when he assumed human nature, he never destroyed or

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lost his divinity. He didn't destroy or lose the full humanity.

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He possesses both of those natures in perfect union, and

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they're not destroyed. They're not they're not absolved, they're not molded.

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They're always in union and yet always still retaining, as

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we say, there created natural properties.

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Speaker 2: And so when we speak of the death of.

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Speaker 1: Christ, there's a one of our great theologians, Saint John Damascus,

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has a great section in book three The Exposition of

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the Orthodox Faith, where he talks about the death of Christ.

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Speaker 2: Pertaining to his human nature.

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Speaker 1: So Christ absolutely did undergo death in his humanity, and

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so his body was his soul was severed from his

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body in that death, but his divine nature remains and

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always remained impassable, and that means unchangeable, unalterable. So the

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divinity underwent no change. God can himself cannot change, He

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cannot be altered, he can't.

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Speaker 2: Be destroyed, he can't die.

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Speaker 1: But so when you see in the Church fathers, or

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even in scripture at times, there's phraseology that we use

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that's called appropriation. One of our other great theologians, Saint

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Cyril of Alexandria, called this the communication of properties.

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Speaker 2: And what this means is that anything that's true of

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one of.

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Speaker 1: Christ's nature's such as eating, drinking, dying, that's true of

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his humanity, can also be spoken of the whole Christ. Right,

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so walking on water, changing water into wine, that is,

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somebody came to my door, So that's true of his divinity.

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But because Christ is one divine hypostasis from all eternity

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who assumed human nature, whatever we say we can attribute

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to the whole Christ, and we mean it in a

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linguistic way without destroying it's a real It's true. It's

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not saying that it's just linguistic. But we can say

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God died without meaning that the divine nature died, right,

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So Christ as the single sole subject, they're present at

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his crucifixion. Christ's divine hypostasis underwent the experience of death

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in his human nature. But that does not mean that

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he as a divine person, died. And I would just

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recommend that if anybody what it's a really clear exposition

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of that from classical Trinitarian theology. Just read the last

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five or six chapters of John Damascus's book three of

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the Expedition Orthodox Faith, where he lays this out perfectly.

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Speaker 2: Yeah.

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Speaker 3: And I think this is the thing is that Muslims

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who are making this kind of argument, if Jesus is

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God and God is immortal, how can God die? If

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they're making that kind of argument, they're not engaging with

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what Christians are saying. It says in one Peter chapter four,

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exactly what you've just said. Therefore, since Christ has suffered

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in the flesh, not suffered in the divinity, suffered in

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the flesh, he's saying that he suffered in his humanity.

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It's it's right there in the Apostolic writings from the

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beginning that the suffering that Christ underwent he underwent in

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his humanity. And so to use this kind of argument

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as if somehow this dismisses what the Christian faith teaches,

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means that they're not actually dismissing what we believe as Christians.

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What they're dismissing is is something a straw man of

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their own invents. And this has been the consistent teaching

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of the Church in the what is it the Second

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Letter to Nestorius written by Let's Cyril, in the same

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manner we conceive respecting his dying, for the Word of

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God is by nature immortal and incorruptible and life giving. Since, however,

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his own body did, as Paul says, by the grace

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of God, tastes death for every man. He himself he said,

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to have suffered death for us, not as if he

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had any experience of death in his own nature, for

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it would be madness to think this. But because as

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I have just said, his flesh taste a death. It's

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kind of like you take a stick and an iron rod,

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and you chuck them into water. One of them sinks

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below and one of them floats above. The two properties

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the two natures experience the same event in very different

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ways and respond very differently. The divine nature passes over

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death even though it passes through death, it doesn't is

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not affected by it, whereas the human nature falls into it.

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And so you know, I would say to hash him

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who makes this argument all the time down and Speaker's

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corner in twenty one, who who's listening to this, that

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if you want to dismiss Christianity, this is a stupid

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reason to do it. It's not a good reason because

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you're not actually arguing based upon what Christians say, but

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you're arguing on something different.

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Speaker 2: Yeah.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, So a lot of people, a lot of people

447
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in the Chat are asking the source. I guess they

448
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didn't hear what I said. So I'm gonna put in

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the chat first of all, the text that I mentioned,

450
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what you just mentioned was Cyril response, Saint Cyril of

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Alexandria responding to Astorias.

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Speaker 3: And then yeah, second letters, second letter.

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Speaker 1: And then I'm going to put into the Chat the

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book three of the Exposition in Orthodox Faith that I

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mentioned if you scroll down to the last five chapters,

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that the whole of book three is about Christology. It's

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a it's an excellent, excellent, one of the most profound,

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nuanced treatises of the Fathers. And so Saint John Damascus

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is writing in the seventh eighth century, so he's reflecting

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back on eight basically eight centuries of Christology, seven centuries

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of Christology, and able to sort of synthesize this into

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a one of the first what you could call perhaps

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systematic theologies.

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Speaker 2: In the exposition of Orthodox faith.

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Speaker 1: But if you scroll down to chapters I think it's

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twenty for those that I just put the link in

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the chat, you'll notice it about chapter twenty six.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, twenty five.

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Speaker 1: Twenty six is where he starts, and then it's all

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the way down to the end, which is not very long.

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But chapter twenty five is about the appropriation. And this

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is important because it's going to come into play.

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Speaker 2: With a lot of the texts that.

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Speaker 1: People of these persuasions Joe's Witnesses or Muslims use, and

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that's called the appropriation. And what that means is that

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there's a lot of times in texts work. For example,

477
00:25:53,680 --> 00:25:57,119
in Galatians three fifteen, we read that Christ became a curse.

478
00:25:57,720 --> 00:26:00,400
So what that means is that Christ willingly under went

479
00:26:00,640 --> 00:26:04,160
death for us. Okay, it doesn't mean that the Father God,

480
00:26:04,200 --> 00:26:08,839
the Father cursed another divine person and therefore split the Trinity.

481
00:26:08,839 --> 00:26:12,039
It doesn't mean that Jesus is a human hypostasis that

482
00:26:12,160 --> 00:26:15,279
underwent damnation from the Trinity or something like that. So

483
00:26:15,279 --> 00:26:21,559
these are classic mistaken understanding, mistakenly understood texts by groups

484
00:26:21,599 --> 00:26:26,079
outside of the orthodoxy of Christianity that have used like, oh, well,

485
00:26:26,079 --> 00:26:28,200
if Christ is a cursed then he must have been

486
00:26:28,279 --> 00:26:30,920
a separate deity that was cursed or a separate human

487
00:26:30,960 --> 00:26:33,400
being that was cursed, or something like that. You'll notice

488
00:26:33,400 --> 00:26:37,720
in chapter twenty six he expounds the very thing again,

489
00:26:37,799 --> 00:26:41,200
summarizing seven centuries of Christian theology on this, the very

490
00:26:41,200 --> 00:26:43,200
thing that Bob and I just mentioned, which is the

491
00:26:43,240 --> 00:26:48,400
impassability of Christ's divinity and the passibility.

492
00:26:47,680 --> 00:26:48,720
Speaker 2: Of his humanity.

493
00:26:49,319 --> 00:26:51,400
Speaker 1: And then you'll notice in chapter twenty seven he goes

494
00:26:51,440 --> 00:26:55,200
into discussing what went on when Christ died, how the

495
00:26:55,240 --> 00:26:59,559
second person that God had the logos, remained divine and impassable,

496
00:26:59,640 --> 00:27:03,079
and the human soul was severed from the human body.

497
00:27:03,119 --> 00:27:05,799
That's what happened in Christ's death, and then he will

498
00:27:05,799 --> 00:27:09,079
discuss the dissent of Christ's soul into Hades. I would

499
00:27:09,119 --> 00:27:12,319
also mention too, for people that want another testimony to

500
00:27:12,359 --> 00:27:16,039
something to this, that's earlier. There's a famous letter of

501
00:27:16,119 --> 00:27:18,440
Saint Basil, which is he's got two that are really

502
00:27:18,480 --> 00:27:22,000
important for the Trinity and for Christology. One of those

503
00:27:22,079 --> 00:27:24,920
is Letter eight, and Letter eight is a like a

504
00:27:24,960 --> 00:27:27,440
I don't know, fifteen to twenty page summation of the

505
00:27:27,480 --> 00:27:30,720
doctrine of the Trinity. And Basil wrote that in about

506
00:27:31,079 --> 00:27:34,240
three sixty eighty, so this is pretty early, not too

507
00:27:34,279 --> 00:27:34,839
long after.

508
00:27:34,880 --> 00:27:39,480
Speaker 2: The Council of Nicia. Letter thirty eight is way more extensive.

509
00:27:39,519 --> 00:27:42,839
Speaker 1: It's it's pretty long, and it gets into the nature

510
00:27:42,920 --> 00:27:45,240
person distinction. How we believe that there's one nature in

511
00:27:45,279 --> 00:27:48,279
the Godhead and three divine hypostases. So if you want

512
00:27:48,640 --> 00:27:52,680
an introduction to how the church fathers have consistently taught this,

513
00:27:52,799 --> 00:27:53,880
you can read out the Natius.

514
00:27:53,880 --> 00:27:55,799
Speaker 2: Of course as well. Everybody knows about at the Natius.

515
00:27:55,839 --> 00:27:58,359
Speaker 3: I think it's an important point to mention Jay that

516
00:27:58,640 --> 00:28:03,160
Christian apologetics can only be strengthened by familiarity with the fatherest.

517
00:28:02,839 --> 00:28:07,359
Speaker 1: Absolutely, you know, I'm not citing these as if that

518
00:28:07,480 --> 00:28:09,880
means that it's true because I cited a church father.

519
00:28:09,960 --> 00:28:14,559
We're citing this as testimonies to the consistency of our teaching.

520
00:28:14,640 --> 00:28:18,279
Speaker 3: Is the point exactly exactly, So I'll throw the next

521
00:28:18,279 --> 00:28:20,839
one at you because and then we'll discuss it there.

522
00:28:20,839 --> 00:28:23,240
The next on The kind of argument that Muslims make

523
00:28:24,599 --> 00:28:29,039
is the if Jesus is God, why how does he eat?

524
00:28:29,119 --> 00:28:32,039
How does he drink? How does he You know this

525
00:28:32,039 --> 00:28:35,160
this is not befitting of God, This is not you know,

526
00:28:35,279 --> 00:28:38,680
God can't do these things because God doesn't need food,

527
00:28:38,799 --> 00:28:43,119
God doesn't need water, you know, you know, to put

528
00:28:43,160 --> 00:28:45,480
it in philosophical terms, how can God be contingent?

529
00:28:46,559 --> 00:28:48,400
Speaker 2: We would agree God is not contingent.

530
00:28:48,480 --> 00:28:51,039
Speaker 1: God does not need food and God does not need water,

531
00:28:51,880 --> 00:28:55,519
but man does. And because God took on human nature

532
00:28:55,559 --> 00:28:57,799
in the incarnation name only the second person that God

533
00:28:57,799 --> 00:29:00,319
had that the entire trinity that not become incarnate, only

534
00:29:00,359 --> 00:29:02,000
the Son, the Logos became incarnate.

535
00:29:02,440 --> 00:29:04,039
Speaker 2: And when he became incarnate.

536
00:29:03,680 --> 00:29:06,599
Speaker 1: We believe that he willed to be in that state,

537
00:29:06,759 --> 00:29:08,720
so he didn't need those things. And this is a

538
00:29:08,799 --> 00:29:10,839
very important thing. For example, when Jesus is talking to

539
00:29:11,240 --> 00:29:13,720
Pontius Pilot, he said, you would have no power over

540
00:29:13,799 --> 00:29:16,720
me unless it was given to you. And because Christ

541
00:29:16,799 --> 00:29:18,839
is a divine person, because he is the one who

542
00:29:18,880 --> 00:29:22,160
created the world, he actually willed to be in this

543
00:29:22,920 --> 00:29:26,480
uh what the phrase Paul uses as kenosis, the canotic state,

544
00:29:26,559 --> 00:29:31,519
which is the you could say, humbling. Jesus chose and

545
00:29:31,599 --> 00:29:35,000
willed to humble himself to come into our lowly state.

546
00:29:35,119 --> 00:29:38,039
It's not that his life was forced from him, that

547
00:29:38,079 --> 00:29:39,079
it was taken from him.

548
00:29:39,119 --> 00:29:42,400
Speaker 2: He couldn't needn't know what to do. Oh, I'm doubting,

549
00:29:42,440 --> 00:29:43,000
I'm scared.

550
00:29:43,839 --> 00:29:46,680
Speaker 1: This is exemplified, for example, in the movie The Last

551
00:29:46,720 --> 00:29:50,079
Temptation of Christ, that blasphemous movie, which presents Jesus as

552
00:29:50,160 --> 00:29:52,039
just this dude who's like, man, I don't.

553
00:29:51,880 --> 00:29:53,880
Speaker 2: Know if I'm going to do I want to do this.

554
00:29:53,960 --> 00:29:56,079
Speaker 1: Man, you know, he's on the cross and he's doubting,

555
00:29:56,119 --> 00:29:58,200
and he's like, man, I could have like a you know,

556
00:29:58,319 --> 00:29:59,079
hippie Jesus.

557
00:29:59,119 --> 00:30:01,799
Speaker 2: Basically, that's not what we believe. But all the heretics

558
00:30:01,839 --> 00:30:02,799
and all the cults, they.

559
00:30:02,720 --> 00:30:05,839
Speaker 1: Believe that we believe in hippie Jesus, just the sort

560
00:30:05,839 --> 00:30:08,880
of doubting prophet. But no, we believe that he's a

561
00:30:08,880 --> 00:30:12,160
divine person. So you're correct that Muslim that we would

562
00:30:12,200 --> 00:30:15,720
agree that God in terms of his divinity is impossible.

563
00:30:16,480 --> 00:30:20,000
He's unchanging, he's eternal. But he has the ability to

564
00:30:20,119 --> 00:30:25,079
enter into time and space and to undergo our weakness

565
00:30:25,279 --> 00:30:28,200
for the sake of deification, for the sake of saving

566
00:30:28,319 --> 00:30:30,640
us and moving us out of that state and into

567
00:30:31,400 --> 00:30:32,079
eternal life.

568
00:30:32,079 --> 00:30:35,440
Speaker 3: And he undergoes, and he bears this suffering, He spares

569
00:30:35,480 --> 00:30:39,440
this contingency in a contingent state of the humanity, correct

570
00:30:39,880 --> 00:30:41,920
the human nature that needs the food.

571
00:30:41,960 --> 00:30:44,880
Speaker 2: It right. We don't say that his divinity needed that food.

572
00:30:44,920 --> 00:30:45,880
We say rightly.

573
00:30:46,039 --> 00:30:51,640
Speaker 3: And so again the problem, the problem that where Muslims

574
00:30:51,880 --> 00:30:53,680
are picking up on this, the reason why they find

575
00:30:53,680 --> 00:30:56,920
this idea offensive is because they don't believe that it

576
00:30:56,960 --> 00:31:00,440
befits the dignity of God to do these things. They

577
00:31:00,480 --> 00:31:04,480
think that somehow that it is an insult to God's

578
00:31:04,599 --> 00:31:07,839
dignity is God, that he should become these things. And

579
00:31:07,880 --> 00:31:09,640
I think that what that drives at is a very

580
00:31:09,640 --> 00:31:13,680
different vision of God, because the division of the vision

581
00:31:13,720 --> 00:31:16,960
of God within Islam is a God of power, a

582
00:31:16,960 --> 00:31:19,640
god of authority, a god of might, have got a

583
00:31:19,759 --> 00:31:24,720
royal ruler, as it were, who you know, it's not

584
00:31:24,799 --> 00:31:27,799
fitting that he should dwell with his underlings, that he

585
00:31:27,839 --> 00:31:32,839
should dwell tabernacle with his creation, his creation is below him,

586
00:31:32,880 --> 00:31:36,599
is beneath him. It's about his royal dignity being insulted.

587
00:31:36,960 --> 00:31:38,880
Whereas I would say to all the Muslims who are

588
00:31:38,880 --> 00:31:41,319
maybe listening to this, that we're not inviting you to

589
00:31:41,400 --> 00:31:44,240
believe in your God. We're inviting you to believe in

590
00:31:44,279 --> 00:31:47,319
a different God. And the fundamental attribute of the God

591
00:31:47,319 --> 00:31:49,000
that we believe in him is a God of love.

592
00:31:50,119 --> 00:31:54,559
And love is that thing that drives God, as it were,

593
00:31:54,640 --> 00:31:58,279
to become man, to take on the fullness of human nature.

594
00:31:58,759 --> 00:32:04,160
It is a an overpowering, not an overpowering as if

595
00:32:04,200 --> 00:32:06,880
God is a slave to love. But it's the very

596
00:32:07,000 --> 00:32:13,519
essence of his nature that that it forms his actions

597
00:32:13,519 --> 00:32:16,440
in the way that it guides the way that he

598
00:32:16,640 --> 00:32:20,880
wishes to be. That by becoming man, he takes on

599
00:32:20,960 --> 00:32:24,960
something that is beneath his royal dignity, but it's because

600
00:32:25,079 --> 00:32:30,599
he's He's there's a greater, something more important to him

601
00:32:30,839 --> 00:32:34,880
than simply royal dignity or preserving royal dignity. It is

602
00:32:34,920 --> 00:32:37,119
this idea of love. And you've got to ask yourself

603
00:32:37,160 --> 00:32:39,559
which kind of ruler? And my sort of question to

604
00:32:39,640 --> 00:32:41,480
Muslims is which kind of ruler is a better kind

605
00:32:41,519 --> 00:32:44,000
of ruler, a ruler who is so distant and far

606
00:32:44,039 --> 00:32:46,279
from you that he only ever sends his delegates and

607
00:32:46,839 --> 00:32:49,039
his messengers and you never see him face to face,

608
00:32:49,720 --> 00:32:52,400
or a ruler who's who despite the fact that he

609
00:32:52,480 --> 00:32:54,119
is the ruler, despite the fact that he has all

610
00:32:54,119 --> 00:32:56,799
of his royal dignity, which incidentally cannot be affected or

611
00:32:56,839 --> 00:32:59,200
stripped away from him or taken from him by anything.

612
00:33:00,480 --> 00:33:02,000
You know, if a king gets covid in mud, he

613
00:33:02,039 --> 00:33:04,519
is He's still a king. If a king dresses as

614
00:33:04,519 --> 00:33:07,160
a peasant, is he still a king? You know? Does

615
00:33:07,200 --> 00:33:10,960
the clothes that the ruler have decide whether he is

616
00:33:11,000 --> 00:33:13,240
a ruler? If the queen doesn't wear the crown on

617
00:33:13,279 --> 00:33:16,039
her head, is she still the queen? Of course, none

618
00:33:16,079 --> 00:33:19,240
of the royal dignity of God is not defined by

619
00:33:19,279 --> 00:33:21,880
the fact or compromised by the fact that he becomes

620
00:33:22,519 --> 00:33:26,880
a lowly human being. But it does demonstrate something about

621
00:33:26,960 --> 00:33:29,599
who he is as a person that he does become

622
00:33:29,640 --> 00:33:30,240
a human being.

623
00:33:30,359 --> 00:33:32,599
Speaker 1: Yeah, it doesn't want Yeah, I was going to ask

624
00:33:32,640 --> 00:33:35,119
you about I was going to ask you about the

625
00:33:35,160 --> 00:33:37,480
notion of sort of being the slave of Allah. Now,

626
00:33:37,519 --> 00:33:39,839
Paul will use that analogy at times where he says,

627
00:33:39,839 --> 00:33:42,440
I'm a bond slave of Christ and so forth. But

628
00:33:43,079 --> 00:33:46,599
Christ is pretty consistently using another analogy as well, that

629
00:33:48,039 --> 00:33:50,960
we are not just made servants and slaves of God,

630
00:33:51,000 --> 00:33:53,559
but actually sons of God. And this I say this

631
00:33:53,680 --> 00:33:56,559
because there's the idea of becoming sons. And the whole

632
00:33:56,599 --> 00:33:59,559
point of Christ doing what he's doing is for our

633
00:33:59,599 --> 00:34:02,079
good and to actually share in the glory that he

634
00:34:02,119 --> 00:34:04,519
possesses with the Father. So, for example, Jesus and John

635
00:34:04,559 --> 00:34:07,920
seventeen says, the hour has come. Now glorify your son,

636
00:34:07,960 --> 00:34:10,360
that the Son might glorify you, for you have given

637
00:34:10,400 --> 00:34:12,840
him authority over all flesh, that he should give eternal

638
00:34:12,880 --> 00:34:14,480
life to as many as you have given him. This

639
00:34:14,519 --> 00:34:16,559
is eternal life, that they might know, that they might

640
00:34:16,639 --> 00:34:19,159
know you, the One True God. And Jesus, whom you

641
00:34:19,199 --> 00:34:21,760
have sent, I've glorified you on earth. I finished the

642
00:34:21,800 --> 00:34:23,519
word that you've given me to do. And now glorify

643
00:34:23,599 --> 00:34:26,679
me together with yourself, with the glory that I had

644
00:34:26,719 --> 00:34:28,760
with you before the world was. And then he goes

645
00:34:28,760 --> 00:34:32,199
on to say that he intends to share that glory

646
00:34:32,239 --> 00:34:35,679
with us as sons with him. So Christ actually makes

647
00:34:35,760 --> 00:34:37,920
us sons, not just slaves.

648
00:34:37,960 --> 00:34:38,599
Speaker 2: Not just this.

649
00:34:38,679 --> 00:34:42,360
Speaker 1: If you think of Paul's allegory Galatians, for of Hagar

650
00:34:42,440 --> 00:34:48,559
and Sarah the slave girl, and he compares flesh Israel

651
00:34:48,559 --> 00:34:52,519
to those who are like slaves to the law, and

652
00:34:52,559 --> 00:34:54,760
he's saying that no, Christ actually came to make us

653
00:34:54,800 --> 00:34:57,320
heirs of the promise to make us sons of God.

654
00:34:57,440 --> 00:35:02,440
So the whole point of this, this humbling state that

655
00:35:02,519 --> 00:35:05,840
Christ undergoes is not just to die and to pay

656
00:35:05,840 --> 00:35:10,679
a debt, but to die and to satisfy eternal justice,

657
00:35:10,719 --> 00:35:13,320
you could say, and then to actually raise us to

658
00:35:13,519 --> 00:35:16,679
a higher status what was intended of man in the beginning,

659
00:35:17,039 --> 00:35:18,920
so that we might participate in eternal life.

660
00:35:18,960 --> 00:35:21,159
Speaker 2: And so that's all we mean by a lot of.

661
00:35:21,159 --> 00:35:23,800
Speaker 1: People are confused by Orthodox theology when you talk about theosis.

662
00:35:23,760 --> 00:35:25,719
They say, oh, you think that you're pagan and you

663
00:35:26,199 --> 00:35:30,639
become gods like Aster Croley apotheosis. No, no, we become that's no, no,

664
00:35:30,679 --> 00:35:34,679
we become participants in eternal life and immortality on the

665
00:35:34,719 --> 00:35:37,239
basis of the uncreated grace of God.

666
00:35:37,280 --> 00:35:37,960
Speaker 2: And then that's what.

667
00:35:39,159 --> 00:35:42,280
Speaker 3: And this is something this is because Muslims go to

668
00:35:42,320 --> 00:35:44,960
the passage that you've just quoted in John seventeen isn't

669
00:35:45,000 --> 00:35:47,960
it where it says Christ say, is the only true God,

670
00:35:48,320 --> 00:35:50,599
And any Christian who knows the scripture just goes, well,

671
00:35:50,719 --> 00:35:53,599
keep reading some and then what you get to is

672
00:35:53,599 --> 00:35:55,400
you get to the bit where Christ says, and now

673
00:35:55,440 --> 00:35:57,840
glorify me Father with the glory that I had with

674
00:35:57,960 --> 00:36:01,480
you before the beginning, before the beginning, before the creation

675
00:36:01,559 --> 00:36:06,920
of the world, thus demonstrating Christ's divinity. Now, any Muslim's progressed,

676
00:36:07,559 --> 00:36:11,800
any Muslim apologist or polemasist who's progressed past very basics

677
00:36:11,840 --> 00:36:14,960
of I've got you on this verse will then counter

678
00:36:15,079 --> 00:36:17,920
to the fact that the Christian points out Christ's pre

679
00:36:18,039 --> 00:36:21,400
exist and sharing of eternal glory with a father by

680
00:36:21,440 --> 00:36:23,519
going on and then saying, ah, well hold on. Later

681
00:36:23,559 --> 00:36:26,480
in that same passage, it says that Jesus will share

682
00:36:26,519 --> 00:36:30,000
that glory with his followers, and thus therefore it shows

683
00:36:30,000 --> 00:36:35,320
that he isn't God. But actually, what you're saying is

684
00:36:34,599 --> 00:36:39,639
is is correct. It's the idea that by taking on

685
00:36:39,800 --> 00:36:44,519
human form, Christ is elevating the humanity or that we

686
00:36:44,599 --> 00:36:48,360
have that when we are in him, when we embrace him,

687
00:36:48,639 --> 00:36:52,239
that we are able to share in the divine energy,

688
00:36:52,280 --> 00:36:56,159
in the divine attributes like eternality. And here's the thing.

689
00:36:56,199 --> 00:36:58,639
Muslims might be scandalized by that, but don't they also

690
00:36:58,760 --> 00:37:01,559
believe in eternal life. Don't they also believe that they

691
00:37:01,559 --> 00:37:04,559
are going to enter into eternal existence? And if that

692
00:37:04,719 --> 00:37:08,159
eternal existence is something that is a predica only of

693
00:37:08,199 --> 00:37:10,440
God alone, how can they possibly share in it? How

694
00:37:10,440 --> 00:37:15,280
can they have a hope of eternal existence except by

695
00:37:15,320 --> 00:37:18,440
sharing in something that is the divine attribute of God alone?

696
00:37:18,760 --> 00:37:20,400
Speaker 2: Yeah? Absolutely, you know they've.

697
00:37:20,159 --> 00:37:23,519
Speaker 3: Got the same They've got this scandal within their theology

698
00:37:24,000 --> 00:37:26,159
that they're not even aware of because they've never sat

699
00:37:26,199 --> 00:37:27,199
down and thought about it.

700
00:37:27,679 --> 00:37:27,880
Speaker 2: Yeah.

701
00:37:27,920 --> 00:37:30,840
Speaker 1: I want to add too real quick. If you want us,

702
00:37:30,960 --> 00:37:32,719
we will be reading superchat later on. So if you

703
00:37:32,760 --> 00:37:35,679
want to support this chat, this discussion, this channel, you

704
00:37:35,719 --> 00:37:38,239
can do that with Superchat questions. A bit of a

705
00:37:38,639 --> 00:37:43,239
scuffle that has immerged in the chat the answer to

706
00:37:43,280 --> 00:37:46,199
this question about I just want to address this real

707
00:37:46,280 --> 00:37:49,559
quick because everybody's sort of obsessed with this. When we

708
00:37:49,599 --> 00:37:53,079
say that Christ suffered death in his humanity, that's absolutely orthodox,

709
00:37:53,159 --> 00:37:55,280
that's in the creed. You have to believe that this

710
00:37:55,440 --> 00:37:58,880
human nature underwent death. So we're not saying that his

711
00:37:59,400 --> 00:38:03,360
humanity died and ceased to exist. He underwent the experience

712
00:38:03,400 --> 00:38:05,679
of death in his humanity read Book three of Saint

713
00:38:05,719 --> 00:38:09,400
John Damascus. And then in the resurrection he raised and

714
00:38:09,559 --> 00:38:12,320
restored that nature to a higher state. That is the

715
00:38:12,400 --> 00:38:13,400
Orthodox doctrine.

716
00:38:13,760 --> 00:38:17,079
Speaker 2: He did die in his human nature.

717
00:38:17,280 --> 00:38:20,960
Speaker 1: And so whoever this guy is that's saying that Christ

718
00:38:21,000 --> 00:38:24,079
can't die in his humanity is incorrect. Email you are

719
00:38:24,119 --> 00:38:28,360
incorrect anyway, So.

720
00:38:27,000 --> 00:38:29,039
Speaker 3: Yes, he is incorrect. He is incorrect. It says it

721
00:38:29,079 --> 00:38:33,440
in scripture, the Apostolic Fathers teach it. And you know,

722
00:38:33,880 --> 00:38:35,719
the other thing to bear in mind is that lots

723
00:38:35,760 --> 00:38:39,400
of people confuse death with non existence. At that point,

724
00:38:39,559 --> 00:38:43,760
Christ died and ceased to exist in any state. Christ

725
00:38:43,840 --> 00:38:47,840
continued to exist, the logos continued to exist, but he

726
00:38:47,880 --> 00:38:50,840
no longer continued to exist in the state that existed

727
00:38:50,880 --> 00:38:53,840
before death. Right, And that's the point that lots of

728
00:38:53,840 --> 00:38:56,440
people confuse. Now I'm just thinking, Jay, we're running out

729
00:38:56,440 --> 00:38:58,079
of time to get through all of these fifteen. So

730
00:38:58,079 --> 00:39:02,559
what I suggest is one I picked, and we hammer

731
00:39:02,760 --> 00:39:05,119
two more, and then we move on to our next topic.

732
00:39:05,599 --> 00:39:07,159
Is there a particular one that you want to have

733
00:39:07,199 --> 00:39:07,639
a go at.

734
00:39:07,880 --> 00:39:12,760
Speaker 1: Yeah, let's say we got several here, yeah, here's the

735
00:39:12,760 --> 00:39:14,519
good one that comes up. And actually several of these

736
00:39:14,559 --> 00:39:18,599
are kind of derivative of the same issue. Why does

737
00:39:18,679 --> 00:39:21,360
Jesus say in John seventeen three, I'll let you answer,

738
00:39:21,400 --> 00:39:23,639
and I'll give you my answer. Why does Jesus say

739
00:39:23,719 --> 00:39:26,360
the Father is greater than I? And why does Jesus

740
00:39:26,400 --> 00:39:29,840
say I'm ascending to my Father, to my.

741
00:39:29,840 --> 00:39:31,880
Speaker 2: God and to your God. How does Jesus have a

742
00:39:31,920 --> 00:39:33,000
god if he's God?

743
00:39:33,639 --> 00:39:36,079
Speaker 3: Okay, yeah, well so, I mean, if you go to

744
00:39:36,119 --> 00:39:39,719
Philippians chapter two, you've already alluded to it. You know

745
00:39:39,840 --> 00:39:42,440
the passage that I'm going to quote reading from verse

746
00:39:42,480 --> 00:39:45,079
three Christ. And this is an important thing because it

747
00:39:45,119 --> 00:39:50,760
demonstrates that our moral conduct is actually rooted in theological truths,

748
00:39:51,159 --> 00:39:53,880
Because Paul is about to make a statement about how

749
00:39:53,920 --> 00:39:58,920
we should behave based upon a theological narrative. Do nothing

750
00:39:59,320 --> 00:40:03,159
from selfie or empty conceit, but with humility of mind,

751
00:40:03,199 --> 00:40:08,360
regard one another as more important than yourselves. Do not

752
00:40:08,519 --> 00:40:11,800
merely look out for your own personal interests, but also

753
00:40:12,000 --> 00:40:15,719
for the interests of others. Have this attitude in yourselves,

754
00:40:15,719 --> 00:40:20,400
which was also in Christ. Jesus, who, although he existed

755
00:40:20,400 --> 00:40:24,039
in the form of God, did not regard equality with

756
00:40:24,199 --> 00:40:28,039
God a thing to be grasped, but emptied himself, taking

757
00:40:28,119 --> 00:40:31,159
the form of a bond servant and being made in

758
00:40:31,239 --> 00:40:35,039
the likeness of men. So when when the divine Logos,

759
00:40:35,079 --> 00:40:38,360
when the divine Logos, who shared the glory with the

760
00:40:38,440 --> 00:40:43,199
Father before the world was, became a man, He's not

761
00:40:43,360 --> 00:40:46,440
going to become an atheist man. He's not going to

762
00:40:46,519 --> 00:40:50,239
suddenly deny God's existence, is he And so when he

763
00:40:50,320 --> 00:40:54,400
becomes a man, he takes on the status of a servant,

764
00:40:54,519 --> 00:40:57,679
it says, which is the way to interpret all of

765
00:40:57,719 --> 00:40:59,800
these statements about I am going to my God and

766
00:40:59,840 --> 00:41:04,400
you God, because in his humanity, his humanity as also

767
00:41:04,480 --> 00:41:07,400
being the person of the Son, because that's a continuous

768
00:41:07,400 --> 00:41:12,320
state all the way through both post and preincarnation. There

769
00:41:12,360 --> 00:41:14,639
is that status in which he is the son of

770
00:41:14,679 --> 00:41:16,639
the Father. But now he is the son of the

771
00:41:16,679 --> 00:41:21,400
Father in human form, and humanity must glorify God. That

772
00:41:21,559 --> 00:41:23,880
is what it's all about. That's what the whole purpose

773
00:41:23,880 --> 00:41:27,039
of life is that our humanity glorifies God, and Christ,

774
00:41:27,079 --> 00:41:30,239
being the perfect man, glorifies God the Father. And so

775
00:41:30,280 --> 00:41:34,599
he can speak rightfully in his humanity of having my

776
00:41:35,119 --> 00:41:37,639
God and your God. He's speaking to human beings. He's

777
00:41:37,639 --> 00:41:40,480
speaking as a human being. And what was the other

778
00:41:40,519 --> 00:41:44,559
passage that you mentioned about the Father being the only

779
00:41:44,599 --> 00:41:45,079
true God?

780
00:41:45,239 --> 00:41:45,880
Speaker 2: Yeah, the Father.

781
00:41:48,079 --> 00:41:50,480
Speaker 3: I mean, the Father is greater than I in the

782
00:41:50,480 --> 00:41:53,000
sense that he is he is, he has taken on

783
00:41:53,960 --> 00:41:58,280
a human nature. This is not a statement about This

784
00:41:58,320 --> 00:42:01,480
is not a statement about that his ontology in his

785
00:42:01,559 --> 00:42:04,440
divinity is somehow less than the father's. It is that

786
00:42:04,519 --> 00:42:07,599
he has taken on a lower status than the Father.

787
00:42:07,960 --> 00:42:10,199
The scripture is clear that he's taken on the form

788
00:42:10,199 --> 00:42:12,719
of a servant, and thus he can rightfully speak as

789
00:42:12,760 --> 00:42:18,840
the Father being greater than I. You know, But when

790
00:42:18,880 --> 00:42:21,480
you look at these passages, Christ also says things like

791
00:42:21,599 --> 00:42:24,360
honor me as you honor the Father. Now, you're a

792
00:42:24,400 --> 00:42:27,199
logical thinking person, Jay, and I'm sure many of your

793
00:42:27,239 --> 00:42:29,360
audience must be as well, because that's the kind of

794
00:42:29,360 --> 00:42:32,519
person you'll attract. Who is who is the Father? The

795
00:42:32,559 --> 00:42:35,239
Father is God? How do you honor God? You honor

796
00:42:35,280 --> 00:42:39,239
God with divine worship. You honor God as God. So

797
00:42:39,320 --> 00:42:43,039
if Jesus Christ is saying honor me as you honor

798
00:42:43,079 --> 00:42:46,679
the Father, what is he saying? He's saying, honor me

799
00:42:46,880 --> 00:42:50,239
as God, and that the worst thing that a Muslim

800
00:42:50,280 --> 00:42:53,159
can do is to try to use John to argue

801
00:42:53,480 --> 00:42:56,920
against the idea of Christ's divinity, when the whole point

802
00:42:56,960 --> 00:43:01,639
of John's Gospel is to demonstrate christ divinity. You know,

803
00:43:01,639 --> 00:43:05,039
there's another passage where where Christ says, I of myself

804
00:43:05,079 --> 00:43:08,519
can do nothing. In that same passage, which is John five,

805
00:43:09,039 --> 00:43:11,119
Christ also says on me, as you want to the Father,

806
00:43:11,159 --> 00:43:13,639
and he says, I do exactly what I see the

807
00:43:13,639 --> 00:43:17,360
Father doing. Everything that the Father. What the Father does

808
00:43:17,440 --> 00:43:18,960
I do? If we just go to it, I want

809
00:43:18,960 --> 00:43:22,079
to get the exact wording because it is important. In

810
00:43:22,159 --> 00:43:26,199
John five, Christ says, truly, truly, I say to you,

811
00:43:26,239 --> 00:43:29,039
the son of the Son can do nothing of himself

812
00:43:29,360 --> 00:43:31,519
unless it is something he sees the Father doing. And

813
00:43:31,599 --> 00:43:34,039
Muslims use this as an argument to show that Christ

814
00:43:34,559 --> 00:43:38,199
is not God. For whatever the Father does these things,

815
00:43:38,280 --> 00:43:40,679
the son also does in like manner. And I just

816
00:43:40,679 --> 00:43:43,559
think about that, whatever the Father does, the son also

817
00:43:43,679 --> 00:43:45,840
does in like manner. So when the Father creates, what

818
00:43:45,880 --> 00:43:48,280
does the son do? When the Father gives life, what

819
00:43:48,320 --> 00:43:52,960
does the son do when the Father, you know, exists

820
00:43:53,039 --> 00:43:56,760
before the world or creates the angels or commands the angels?

821
00:43:56,760 --> 00:44:00,119
What does the Son do you know? And and and

822
00:44:00,320 --> 00:44:03,480
Muslims miss all of this. They're just picking and choosing

823
00:44:04,239 --> 00:44:08,880
individual versus out of context, and it demonstrates a lack

824
00:44:08,920 --> 00:44:11,679
of sincerity on their part that they are not engaging

825
00:44:11,800 --> 00:44:15,039
with the text. And invariably, when you read just a

826
00:44:15,039 --> 00:44:19,400
bit further on, a bit further down, it always compromises

827
00:44:19,440 --> 00:44:21,920
their argument. When Christ says that the Father is the

828
00:44:21,960 --> 00:44:24,800
only true God, he's speaking to Jews in a context

829
00:44:24,880 --> 00:44:27,360
in which they are being dominated by Romans and had

830
00:44:27,400 --> 00:44:30,760
just been previously dominated by Greeks, both of which were pagans.

831
00:44:31,159 --> 00:44:33,920
So to say that the Father was the only true

832
00:44:34,000 --> 00:44:37,760
God is to say that the Caesar is not a god,

833
00:44:37,920 --> 00:44:40,960
or that Pluto is not a god, or that you know,

834
00:44:41,159 --> 00:44:44,400
Jupiter is not a god, that none of these other

835
00:44:44,480 --> 00:44:48,800
gods are God, that the Father alone is God in

836
00:44:48,840 --> 00:44:51,960
that context, but that none of the statements that Muslims

837
00:44:52,079 --> 00:44:57,639
use ever ever create the impression that Jesus is just

838
00:44:57,679 --> 00:45:01,559
a man. There's always room within the interpretation that Jesus,

839
00:45:01,719 --> 00:45:04,159
even when he says that the Father is the only

840
00:45:04,280 --> 00:45:09,519
true God, doesn't exclude Christ from divinity. It doesn't exclude

841
00:45:09,559 --> 00:45:11,480
Christ from divinity. It doesn't say that I am just

842
00:45:11,519 --> 00:45:12,239
a human being.

843
00:45:13,159 --> 00:45:13,360
Speaker 2: You know.

844
00:45:13,400 --> 00:45:15,440
Speaker 3: And when when Muslims say, you show me where Jesus

845
00:45:15,480 --> 00:45:17,039
says I am God in these words, We'll show me

846
00:45:17,039 --> 00:45:18,880
where Jesus says I am just a human being, he

847
00:45:18,920 --> 00:45:21,280
doesn't say that. You know, it's a silly form of argument.

848
00:45:21,440 --> 00:45:24,360
Speaker 1: But yeah, well, of course, and he actually does say

849
00:45:24,400 --> 00:45:27,519
many times over I am So he actually does, yes, exactly,

850
00:45:27,559 --> 00:45:27,800
I mean.

851
00:45:27,800 --> 00:45:28,360
Speaker 2: And when you.

852
00:45:28,320 --> 00:45:33,239
Speaker 1: Understand that the Old Testament, Theophanes are actually manifestations of

853
00:45:33,280 --> 00:45:36,719
the logos than many many times over all throughout the

854
00:45:36,719 --> 00:45:38,599
Old Testament, every time God is speaking and saying I

855
00:45:38,679 --> 00:45:40,880
am the Lord, there is no other that's actually Jesus talking.

856
00:45:41,719 --> 00:45:43,880
So but they don't actually understand that because they don't

857
00:45:43,960 --> 00:45:46,199
understand that. They think Jesus is like this this new

858
00:45:46,239 --> 00:45:48,440
creation like that, you know, like arians thought.

859
00:45:48,239 --> 00:45:51,159
Speaker 2: That that he well, actually don't, don't.

860
00:45:51,400 --> 00:45:53,840
Speaker 1: Don't Muslims think that there was there's some kind of

861
00:45:53,920 --> 00:45:56,119
logos that's related to Jesus or something like this.

862
00:45:56,280 --> 00:45:58,480
Speaker 2: You would know more about this than they say that that.

863
00:45:58,599 --> 00:46:02,960
Speaker 3: Muslims say that Jesus is the creation of Allah, that

864
00:46:03,039 --> 00:46:06,559
he created Allah by that that the Allah created Jesus

865
00:46:06,599 --> 00:46:10,280
by a word, that Jesus is just a word spoken

866
00:46:10,400 --> 00:46:13,800
by Allah. And in their theology they just think it's

867
00:46:13,800 --> 00:46:16,519
the word command be and he became. It's kind of

868
00:46:16,599 --> 00:46:19,519
like that. But but I don't think they they they

869
00:46:19,679 --> 00:46:25,440
thought through the implication that that that it's the Kuranic

870
00:46:25,559 --> 00:46:28,519
text and in fact might be able to just find it.

871
00:46:28,880 --> 00:46:33,599
Let's the I mean, there are some Christians that argue

872
00:46:33,639 --> 00:46:37,719
that this actually demonstrates that even in the Koran, there

873
00:46:37,840 --> 00:46:40,760
is this idea of Christ's divinity, because how can God

874
00:46:40,760 --> 00:46:43,920
ever be separated from his words. So if if Jesus

875
00:46:44,039 --> 00:46:47,280
is but a word from Allah, well that word must

876
00:46:47,280 --> 00:46:52,960
have eternally been with Allah. You know. Muslims have the

877
00:46:53,199 --> 00:46:58,519
complication within the idea that the divine attributes, like the

878
00:46:58,559 --> 00:47:01,880
words that we find in the Iran. Our eternal is

879
00:47:01,920 --> 00:47:06,400
an eternal book. But this eternal book, these eternal words

880
00:47:06,559 --> 00:47:09,400
that have apparently always existed in the Mother of the book,

881
00:47:09,920 --> 00:47:14,079
have become now written texts, and so you have a

882
00:47:14,199 --> 00:47:17,599
compromising of the what is said to be a divine attribute,

883
00:47:17,639 --> 00:47:22,559
a divine reality, crossing over the barrier and entering into

884
00:47:23,920 --> 00:47:28,320
the contingent world. As it were, but they don't have

885
00:47:28,599 --> 00:47:31,079
They don't have the same view of Jesus that we do.

886
00:47:31,119 --> 00:47:34,400
They think he is just a creation, akin to Adam

887
00:47:34,519 --> 00:47:38,239
being it became, is their logic. Some Christians argue that

888
00:47:38,280 --> 00:47:42,960
because the Koran says that that Jesus is just a

889
00:47:43,000 --> 00:47:46,199
word from Allah, that therefore that word is also eternal.

890
00:47:46,480 --> 00:47:49,519
And you can make that kind of argument certainly that

891
00:47:49,559 --> 00:47:51,280
the Koran is not without his problems on that.

892
00:47:52,760 --> 00:47:55,000
Speaker 1: Okay, so I'm sorry I need to address this again

893
00:47:55,159 --> 00:47:59,639
because the chat is being ridiculous. So Emil I explained

894
00:47:59,639 --> 00:48:04,039
earlier on the Communicatio Idiomatum. This is Saint Cyril's explanation

895
00:48:04,199 --> 00:48:07,039
that whatever's true of either nature's can be spoken of

896
00:48:07,079 --> 00:48:09,880
the whole Christ. That does not mean that when we

897
00:48:09,920 --> 00:48:13,000
speak of the death of Christ that we don't therefore

898
00:48:13,039 --> 00:48:15,800
mean that he died in his humanity. The divine nature

899
00:48:15,880 --> 00:48:19,760
is impassable. When we say the nature of humans, Christ

900
00:48:19,880 --> 00:48:23,800
humans nature does it's the person of the Logos that

901
00:48:23,960 --> 00:48:26,840
underwent death in his human nature. It is the human

902
00:48:26,920 --> 00:48:31,039
nature that died. You're committing the Monophysite Theopaschite heresy by

903
00:48:31,079 --> 00:48:35,159
saying that the Logos died. That's why Saint Cyril explains

904
00:48:35,159 --> 00:48:39,199
it as communicastio idiomatum. The Logos died in his humanity.

905
00:48:39,480 --> 00:48:41,880
The whole section of Book three of John Damascus refused

906
00:48:41,880 --> 00:48:44,119
the basic mistake that you're making, and I'm going to

907
00:48:44,159 --> 00:48:47,199
ban you because you keep monopolizing the chat over something

908
00:48:47,199 --> 00:48:49,480
that is not the topic that we're discussing. It's a

909
00:48:49,519 --> 00:48:52,559
basic Christological mistake that you're making, and you won't listen.

910
00:48:52,599 --> 00:48:55,159
That's why I'm going to ban you. Anyway, I'm sorry,

911
00:48:55,320 --> 00:48:56,639
So let's move on.

912
00:48:56,599 --> 00:49:03,880
Speaker 2: Maybe to the issue of Christian politics.

913
00:49:04,000 --> 00:49:05,159
Speaker 1: Do you want to move on to that, because I

914
00:49:05,159 --> 00:49:07,440
do actually have a debate with the Kurgan that's coming

915
00:49:07,519 --> 00:49:11,000
up here a little bit. No, you don't agree with

916
00:49:11,039 --> 00:49:13,079
what I just said, because what I just said is

917
00:49:13,800 --> 00:49:17,079
addressing the mistake that you're making. We have to distinguish

918
00:49:17,639 --> 00:49:21,280
nature in person. Even after Christ is incarnate, he has

919
00:49:21,320 --> 00:49:24,800
two natures. He does not die in his divinity. That's

920
00:49:24,840 --> 00:49:28,039
why you don't get communicatio idio mantum. Anything that we

921
00:49:28,119 --> 00:49:30,199
say of either of the nature is is true of

922
00:49:30,320 --> 00:49:33,719
the whole Christ. So did God die, Yes, in the

923
00:49:33,760 --> 00:49:37,960
sense of his human nature undergoing death. This is a

924
00:49:37,960 --> 00:49:40,199
basic mistake that you're making you're starting to make me mad.

925
00:49:40,679 --> 00:49:44,239
So again, you take, let's talk about let's talk about

926
00:49:44,320 --> 00:49:45,440
let's talk about politics.

927
00:49:45,440 --> 00:49:47,320
Speaker 2: So you take, you take the next part.

928
00:49:47,440 --> 00:49:51,000
Speaker 3: So so moving on, So moving on in terms of

929
00:49:51,400 --> 00:49:56,760
in terms of Christian politics, Let's just do a bit

930
00:49:56,800 --> 00:49:59,639
of an introduction because I've often been perturbed by this

931
00:49:59,760 --> 00:50:03,320
thought that we've had prime minister after prime minister and

932
00:50:03,360 --> 00:50:07,920
president after president who are professing Christians, and yet the

933
00:50:07,960 --> 00:50:10,719
position of the Church and the position of the Christian

934
00:50:10,800 --> 00:50:16,239
communities continue to get worse. Laws are being passed that

935
00:50:16,440 --> 00:50:21,320
are contradictory to a Christian world view, and these laws

936
00:50:21,320 --> 00:50:24,760
are often being passed by Christians or people that profess

937
00:50:24,800 --> 00:50:30,400
to be Christians. Now possibly, I mean, I try to

938
00:50:30,440 --> 00:50:32,880
be charitable, so if someone says that they are a Christian,

939
00:50:33,360 --> 00:50:36,320
I don't presume to judge other wise unless they give

940
00:50:36,360 --> 00:50:41,760
me lots of good reasons to presume otherwise. And I'm

941
00:50:41,840 --> 00:50:45,719
often willing to accept that people can think erroneously about

942
00:50:45,760 --> 00:50:51,119
politics despite the fact that they are Christian. So I

943
00:50:51,239 --> 00:50:54,440
wondered as to why that is, and I've kind of

944
00:50:54,480 --> 00:50:56,719
come to the conclusion that the reason why you can

945
00:50:56,800 --> 00:50:59,320
have a prime minister that is willing to pass a

946
00:50:59,400 --> 00:51:02,159
law that change is the definition of marriage, or a

947
00:51:02,239 --> 00:51:05,119
Christian Prime minister that's willing to pass laws in favor

948
00:51:05,159 --> 00:51:09,280
of divorce or abortion, or even presidents I mean in

949
00:51:09,320 --> 00:51:13,559
America who do similar such things like you know, I

950
00:51:13,559 --> 00:51:17,199
think in America, President Obama passed a law that compelled

951
00:51:17,280 --> 00:51:20,800
Catholic adoption agencies to hand children over to gay couples,

952
00:51:20,840 --> 00:51:23,760
despite the fact that it contradicts our faith. I don't know,

953
00:51:23,800 --> 00:51:25,960
you can correct me if that particular factoid is wrong.

954
00:51:26,960 --> 00:51:30,280
But why is that? And I've come to the conclusion

955
00:51:30,280 --> 00:51:36,239
it's because Christians don't have a political consciousness that is

956
00:51:36,639 --> 00:51:42,280
rooted in their faith as a people, and that what

957
00:51:42,400 --> 00:51:47,239
Christians need to become conscious of is that because we

958
00:51:47,280 --> 00:51:49,679
are a collective, because we are a people known as

959
00:51:49,719 --> 00:51:52,679
the Church, we are the body of Christ, that that

960
00:51:52,840 --> 00:51:58,320
means that we have legitimate political interests in society that

961
00:51:58,360 --> 00:52:01,360
we have to defend. That we have to defend our

962
00:52:01,480 --> 00:52:05,000
own values which give rise to our own culture, and

963
00:52:05,039 --> 00:52:07,719
that the way that we need to do that is

964
00:52:07,719 --> 00:52:12,239
is by having a Christian political narrative that that is

965
00:52:12,480 --> 00:52:18,000
socially conservative, that seeks to defend things like married life,

966
00:52:19,320 --> 00:52:27,800
the family, that that is concerned with justice, so opposes

967
00:52:27,880 --> 00:52:35,280
things like you know, slavery, leaving people in poverty, you know,

968
00:52:35,400 --> 00:52:38,400
has a care for the poor, but also have a

969
00:52:38,400 --> 00:52:41,239
third element which is particularly unique, which is based upon

970
00:52:41,320 --> 00:52:47,199
solidarity with other Christians, the idea of political solidarity with

971
00:52:47,840 --> 00:52:52,880
other Christians in whatever they're going through, you know, particularly

972
00:52:52,920 --> 00:52:55,000
when the thing that they're going through is because they

973
00:52:55,000 --> 00:52:58,920
are a Christian. And that's sort of like what what

974
00:52:59,280 --> 00:53:02,440
a Christian political narrative looks like. And I think as

975
00:53:02,840 --> 00:53:06,679
as society continues to change and continues to change in

976
00:53:06,719 --> 00:53:11,000
a way that's Unchristian and even aggressive towards Christianity, the

977
00:53:11,119 --> 00:53:16,119
need for a political awakening amongst the church, a political

978
00:53:16,199 --> 00:53:21,000
consciousness amongst the church is increasing. We've just seen a

979
00:53:21,960 --> 00:53:26,280
coordinated attempt to wipe out Christians in Iraq and Syria.

980
00:53:27,159 --> 00:53:31,639
Catholics and Orthodox have suffered the brunt of that by

981
00:53:31,760 --> 00:53:35,320
Isis who have deliberately attempt to wipe out the church. There.

982
00:53:36,119 --> 00:53:40,000
There are attempts to persecute Christians in Central African Republic.

983
00:53:40,320 --> 00:53:44,440
There are attempts to persecute Christians in North Africa. There

984
00:53:44,480 --> 00:53:48,360
are there's persecution of Christians in Egypt, there's persecution of

985
00:53:48,440 --> 00:53:54,719
Christians in Pakistan, this persecution of Christians in Burma, and

986
00:53:54,800 --> 00:53:58,039
you know, and we as Christians, we've we've we we

987
00:53:58,119 --> 00:54:04,559
are just so mind bogglingly silent about this topic. I am.

988
00:54:04,639 --> 00:54:09,719
I am confounded as to why. And my only conclusion

989
00:54:09,840 --> 00:54:12,559
is that it's because Christians lack any kind of political

990
00:54:12,639 --> 00:54:16,800
narrative that is coherent. I'm going to ask, I'm going

991
00:54:16,840 --> 00:54:19,119
to ask Lewis very cheekly, if you could film like

992
00:54:19,280 --> 00:54:23,719
with water cuss I'm talking to you and I'm thirsty,

993
00:54:25,000 --> 00:54:27,039
and yeah, you're just your thoughts on that.

994
00:54:27,360 --> 00:54:31,239
Speaker 2: Jay, Yeah, I mean, I think that my take.

995
00:54:31,280 --> 00:54:33,000
Speaker 1: And we have a lot of talks and videos where

996
00:54:33,000 --> 00:54:38,440
we discussed this about the political aspects of Christian theology

997
00:54:38,480 --> 00:54:40,400
that's been lost as a result of a lot of

998
00:54:40,400 --> 00:54:44,719
developments in the West, particularly the Enlightenment. We absolutely an orthodoxy,

999
00:54:44,800 --> 00:54:47,960
believe that there has to be there is a doctrine

1000
00:54:47,960 --> 00:54:50,920
of the civil state. You can see this in the

1001
00:54:50,920 --> 00:54:52,519
development of Christian theology.

1002
00:54:53,239 --> 00:54:55,199
Speaker 2: I don't believe in the evolution of.

1003
00:54:55,159 --> 00:54:58,559
Speaker 1: Dogma, but there is a development of the theology of

1004
00:54:58,559 --> 00:55:01,840
the Church Fathers that's legitimate, and that development, in our view,

1005
00:55:01,960 --> 00:55:06,039
is getting greater and greater precision and clarifying. It's not

1006
00:55:06,400 --> 00:55:09,960
the Roman Catholic notion of sort of evolving doctrine of

1007
00:55:10,119 --> 00:55:12,760
Colonel Newman or something like that. So there is a

1008
00:55:12,800 --> 00:55:14,519
doctrine of the civil state, and I think a lot

1009
00:55:14,559 --> 00:55:17,440
of modern even orthanox in the West, are sort of

1010
00:55:17,559 --> 00:55:20,760
unaware of this doctrine. In Russia, it's called sober noost,

1011
00:55:20,920 --> 00:55:26,239
where you have the idea of community in our civil state. Theology,

1012
00:55:26,239 --> 00:55:28,679
it's called simple nea where you have a balance of

1013
00:55:28,760 --> 00:55:32,360
powers between the civil state under God and the Church

1014
00:55:32,440 --> 00:55:34,360
under God. So both are under God. That's why you

1015
00:55:34,400 --> 00:55:37,679
have the Byzantine double headed eagle, and so they're both accountable,

1016
00:55:37,719 --> 00:55:40,199
but in different ways. Right, So the Church is spiritual,

1017
00:55:40,239 --> 00:55:43,639
it does have a priority and a premacy of place

1018
00:55:43,679 --> 00:55:44,280
over the state.

1019
00:55:44,320 --> 00:55:47,039
Speaker 2: But the state is not anti God.

1020
00:55:47,119 --> 00:55:48,679
Speaker 1: The state is not a thing that I mean, we

1021
00:55:48,760 --> 00:55:51,400
believe that if you believe the biblical account, God actually

1022
00:55:51,480 --> 00:55:54,639
established the state. It's God that gave no other right

1023
00:55:54,719 --> 00:55:57,320
to exact the death penalty. And if you follow from

1024
00:55:57,320 --> 00:55:59,400
Genesis nine where the death penalty is given, all the

1025
00:55:59,440 --> 00:56:01,920
way up to Run thirteen, where Paul says that the

1026
00:56:02,000 --> 00:56:05,320
state still has the authority from God as a diaconos.

1027
00:56:05,400 --> 00:56:08,079
Paul uses the word and the term diaconos, which is

1028
00:56:08,079 --> 00:56:11,679
a liturgical term for a deacon of the civil state.

1029
00:56:11,760 --> 00:56:14,639
And that's why in the Byzantine symphonia notion you have

1030
00:56:15,079 --> 00:56:18,039
the emperor actually could go behind the iconostasis. He was

1031
00:56:18,079 --> 00:56:21,960
actually seen as a lesser minister of God. You could say,

1032
00:56:22,599 --> 00:56:24,559
we would say that that is the norma, even all

1033
00:56:24,559 --> 00:56:26,400
the way up into Father serfrom Rose, one of the

1034
00:56:26,400 --> 00:56:30,079
more prominent defenders of the Book of Genesism in Orthodoxy

1035
00:56:30,119 --> 00:56:32,599
in the modern period. In his book Nihilism, he says

1036
00:56:32,639 --> 00:56:36,119
that the Orthodox imperium is the providential mode of government

1037
00:56:36,159 --> 00:56:39,159
that God has ordained for Christianity, and that's why for

1038
00:56:39,599 --> 00:56:42,400
hundreds and hundreds of years from millennia, the Church has

1039
00:56:42,440 --> 00:56:46,320
done coronation ceremonies where you have Orthodox emperors and Orthodox kings.

1040
00:56:47,480 --> 00:56:50,960
Chris made it to be ministers under God. So in

1041
00:56:51,039 --> 00:56:53,559
our review this is not up for grabs. It's not

1042
00:56:53,599 --> 00:56:57,480
something that nobody knows about. There is a political perspective

1043
00:56:57,519 --> 00:56:59,960
that we're supposed to have, and although we don't know,

1044
00:57:00,000 --> 00:57:04,280
necessarily apply everything from the mosaic legislation into the civil sphere.

1045
00:57:04,360 --> 00:57:07,480
It's not judaizing, and it's not a heresy to have

1046
00:57:07,639 --> 00:57:10,840
the same view of the way that the Church operated

1047
00:57:10,880 --> 00:57:15,199
from after the Christianization of the Empire with Theodosius, all

1048
00:57:15,239 --> 00:57:18,559
the way up until the Byzantine Fall. You have this

1049
00:57:18,840 --> 00:57:21,639
simple notion of Symponia, that there's a balance of powers,

1050
00:57:21,639 --> 00:57:24,559
that the state has a duty to keep the moral

1051
00:57:24,679 --> 00:57:28,559
law of God. That is the orthodox view, and to

1052
00:57:28,719 --> 00:57:33,360
deny that is actually just to adhere to the liberal

1053
00:57:33,400 --> 00:57:36,199
and Enlightenment principles that come out of the Enlightenment. And

1054
00:57:36,199 --> 00:57:38,440
that's why we don't really care for the Enlightenment too much.

1055
00:57:38,440 --> 00:57:40,679
I mean, yeah, there was a lot of legitimate criticisms

1056
00:57:40,719 --> 00:57:42,920
of corruption in the state and in the church in

1057
00:57:42,960 --> 00:57:44,960
the West at that time, but that doesn't mean that

1058
00:57:45,000 --> 00:57:48,320
all the principles of Voltaire and all these characters are

1059
00:57:48,480 --> 00:57:51,599
necessarily the ideals that we want. So we do have

1060
00:57:51,679 --> 00:57:57,280
to re evaluate and reinstitate, reinstitute, excuse me, the notion

1061
00:57:57,480 --> 00:58:00,920
of a Christian civil order. Now, that's not in our view.

1062
00:58:01,039 --> 00:58:03,719
Like our primary thing, we want to convert people first.

1063
00:58:03,719 --> 00:58:05,880
We believe that there has to be a conversion on

1064
00:58:05,920 --> 00:58:08,719
the inner side of man first, and that's.

1065
00:58:08,559 --> 00:58:10,000
Speaker 2: What if you look at the history of the Church.

1066
00:58:10,599 --> 00:58:12,960
Speaker 1: The martyrs of the first three centuries is what led

1067
00:58:13,000 --> 00:58:15,000
eventually to the conversion of the Empire. We see that

1068
00:58:15,039 --> 00:58:17,639
as a good thing, and so the same idea would apply.

1069
00:58:17,760 --> 00:58:19,840
Now we're not trying to like we're let's go convert

1070
00:58:19,840 --> 00:58:22,559
a bunch of kings and then they'll force everybody to

1071
00:58:22,599 --> 00:58:24,239
be Orthodox and Christians.

1072
00:58:24,280 --> 00:58:25,280
Speaker 2: No, no, it's not like that.

1073
00:58:25,400 --> 00:58:29,760
Speaker 1: We convert hearts first, and then it spills out into

1074
00:58:30,159 --> 00:58:33,159
the civil sphere. Right, So if we put things in

1075
00:58:33,199 --> 00:58:36,320
the right order, eventually it will spill out into the

1076
00:58:36,320 --> 00:58:39,599
political civil sphere when it's appropriate in our views. So

1077
00:58:40,519 --> 00:58:42,559
and last one, last point, I'll Megan, I'll let you

1078
00:58:42,559 --> 00:58:45,360
have the floor, which is that I will give Islam

1079
00:58:45,400 --> 00:58:49,599
credit for understanding that God is not divorced from the

1080
00:58:49,639 --> 00:58:52,760
rest of society, right. I mean, Christianity, because of its

1081
00:58:52,760 --> 00:58:55,760
acceptance in the West, at least of Pietism and of

1082
00:58:55,800 --> 00:58:59,719
the influence of the Enlightenment, has been severely weakened because

1083
00:58:59,719 --> 00:59:02,079
it doesn't believe that, oh, God doesn't haveyhing to do

1084
00:59:02,159 --> 00:59:04,440
with the civil sphere. That's just me and my church

1085
00:59:04,880 --> 00:59:06,639
laugh on Sunday, and then the rest of the week

1086
00:59:06,760 --> 00:59:08,960
is just whatever you want. Why is that well, because

1087
00:59:09,039 --> 00:59:11,880
Jesus is just a hippie prophet, So there's a Nestorian

1088
00:59:11,960 --> 00:59:15,920
and Aryan Enlightenment conception of Jesus and not understanding that

1089
00:59:15,960 --> 00:59:18,920
he's actually a Ponto crad or he is actually king

1090
00:59:18,960 --> 00:59:22,079
of kings, right, that means that he's actually over the

1091
00:59:22,079 --> 00:59:26,320
civil state as well.

1092
00:59:24,800 --> 00:59:31,519
Speaker 3: I think, and I think the problem that the issue

1093
00:59:31,559 --> 00:59:35,760
is that Christians have divorced the idea that we can

1094
00:59:36,039 --> 00:59:40,599
hold politics as Christians. You know that a member of

1095
00:59:40,639 --> 00:59:43,239
the laity can hold the highest office in the land.

1096
00:59:43,280 --> 00:59:45,920
And I think part of that comes from an abuse

1097
00:59:46,039 --> 00:59:51,480
of or as or an erroneous reading of Matthew twenty

1098
00:59:51,480 --> 00:59:56,360
two fifteen, the idea of paying tribute to Caesar. Then

1099
00:59:56,360 --> 00:59:59,599
the Pharisees went and plotted together how they might trap

1100
00:59:59,679 --> 01:00:02,679
him in what he said, and they sent their disciples

1101
01:00:02,679 --> 01:00:06,360
to him along with the Herodians, saying, teacher, we know

1102
01:00:06,440 --> 01:00:08,280
that you are truthful and teach the way of God

1103
01:00:08,320 --> 01:00:11,159
in truth, and defer to no one, for you are

1104
01:00:11,199 --> 01:00:14,119
not partial to any tell us. Then what do you

1105
01:00:14,199 --> 01:00:17,320
think it is lawful to give a pull tax to

1106
01:00:17,360 --> 01:00:20,679
Caesar or not? Now? Why was that controversial question? It

1107
01:00:20,719 --> 01:00:25,960
was because the Jewish believers, the Jewish community didn't like

1108
01:00:26,000 --> 01:00:29,079
the idea of having Caesar as their king. They saw

1109
01:00:29,119 --> 01:00:31,679
God as their king, and the idea of having a

1110
01:00:31,760 --> 01:00:35,400
pagan image on their coinage broke the Jewish commandment. So

1111
01:00:35,480 --> 01:00:36,760
it was kind of like, you know, where do you

1112
01:00:36,800 --> 01:00:40,039
stand on this? And the Herodians were people who were

1113
01:00:40,039 --> 01:00:44,639
supporters of the Party of Herod, who was the son

1114
01:00:44,679 --> 01:00:48,840
of Herod the Great, and the idea of him being

1115
01:00:48,880 --> 01:00:54,079
the puppet king of the Roman occupiers. And Jesus answer

1116
01:00:54,679 --> 01:00:58,360
was this. But Jesus perceived their malice and said, why

1117
01:00:58,400 --> 01:01:01,599
are you testing me, you hipoc show me the coin

1118
01:01:02,119 --> 01:01:05,159
use for the poll tax. And they brought him a denarius,

1119
01:01:05,440 --> 01:01:09,039
and he said to them, whose likeness and inscription is this?

1120
01:01:09,599 --> 01:01:12,800
They said to him, Caesars. Then he said to them,

1121
01:01:13,280 --> 01:01:15,920
then render to Caesar the things that are Caesar's, and

1122
01:01:15,960 --> 01:01:19,119
to God's the things that are God's. And hearing this,

1123
01:01:19,239 --> 01:01:22,519
they were amazed, and leaving him they went away. Now

1124
01:01:22,559 --> 01:01:25,239
why were they amazed? People were paying the poll tax.

1125
01:01:25,320 --> 01:01:27,960
So it sounds at a very surface level Jesus is

1126
01:01:28,000 --> 01:01:30,719
just saying, go along with whatever you know is going

1127
01:01:30,719 --> 01:01:33,639
along with the current thing. But it's in his answer

1128
01:01:34,159 --> 01:01:38,239
that it is the amazingness of his answer, because he says,

1129
01:01:38,239 --> 01:01:41,000
render to Caesar the things that are Caesar's, and to

1130
01:01:41,079 --> 01:01:43,679
God the things that are God's. Well, according to the

1131
01:01:43,679 --> 01:01:47,320
Old Testament, what belongs to God. He says in the

1132
01:01:47,320 --> 01:01:49,760
Psalms that the earth is the Lord's and everything upon it.

1133
01:01:50,159 --> 01:01:53,079
So when Jesus says, render to Caesar, what belongs to Caesar,

1134
01:01:53,119 --> 01:01:55,639
and to God what belongs to God, he's saying everything

1135
01:01:55,679 --> 01:02:00,559
belongs to God. That means politics belongs to God. It

1136
01:02:00,599 --> 01:02:05,719
means political authority belongs to God. It means political office

1137
01:02:06,079 --> 01:02:10,159
belongs to God. It means the nation state belongs to God.

1138
01:02:10,400 --> 01:02:14,360
And we as Christians must render our political office to God.

1139
01:02:14,480 --> 01:02:18,239
We must render the state to God. We must render

1140
01:02:18,599 --> 01:02:22,840
our political activism to God. But in the Enlightenment, what

1141
01:02:22,960 --> 01:02:25,519
happened was this verse was used as a way of

1142
01:02:25,599 --> 01:02:28,400
separating politics from religion, and so lots of people have

1143
01:02:28,480 --> 01:02:31,519
this erroneous view that the church, and I use this

1144
01:02:31,559 --> 01:02:34,960
in the broadest sense, that the body of believers me

1145
01:02:35,000 --> 01:02:37,440
and you as part of the Church, the laity, that

1146
01:02:37,480 --> 01:02:40,119
the Church should stay out of politics, and that religion

1147
01:02:40,199 --> 01:02:43,119
is just this private thing that we keep to ourselves

1148
01:02:43,199 --> 01:02:46,280
and we don't infuse it with politics. Well, we've seen

1149
01:02:46,280 --> 01:02:49,159
where that leads and it's not led to anywhere good.

1150
01:02:49,719 --> 01:02:51,360
So I think it's time that the Church has a

1151
01:02:51,400 --> 01:02:55,360
rethink on this topic and that actually we see that

1152
01:02:55,400 --> 01:02:59,480
we should use any influence or authority that we have

1153
01:02:59,599 --> 01:03:04,039
in society to nudge and to be a light that

1154
01:03:04,199 --> 01:03:07,639
shines out on a hill, to be the salt the

1155
01:03:07,719 --> 01:03:10,760
yeast that levens a hole, to be salt in the earth,

1156
01:03:10,840 --> 01:03:16,239
and to deconate to move society in a Christian direction,

1157
01:03:17,039 --> 01:03:19,760
you know, and that is about rendering to God what

1158
01:03:19,880 --> 01:03:23,800
belongs to God, because Jesus is saying that Caesar belongs

1159
01:03:23,840 --> 01:03:27,719
to God. And that's why this answer was amazing. That's why,

1160
01:03:27,840 --> 01:03:30,400
because he managed to get out of the trap that

1161
01:03:30,400 --> 01:03:33,719
they've laid for him without ever compromising the truth of scripture.

1162
01:03:34,960 --> 01:03:38,440
And I think that Christians need to recapture this vision

1163
01:03:39,039 --> 01:03:45,280
of seeking a Christian politic, a Christian society, and what

1164
01:03:45,280 --> 01:03:47,039
I mean by that is the idea that we are

1165
01:03:47,079 --> 01:03:50,960
a Christian politic, we are a Christian society in this

1166
01:03:51,079 --> 01:03:54,039
world that we exist. You were talking about the theology

1167
01:03:54,119 --> 01:03:58,239
that the political narrative that developed after the conversion of Caesar.

1168
01:03:58,760 --> 01:04:01,199
But we don't live in that world now. We live

1169
01:04:01,239 --> 01:04:05,079
in a world where many Caesars are against Christ. Back

1170
01:04:05,239 --> 01:04:07,920
as actually that at the time when the New Testament

1171
01:04:08,000 --> 01:04:10,840
was written, there are many Caesars that are against Christ.

1172
01:04:10,920 --> 01:04:15,760
Obama was against Christ, Cameron was against Christ. Mercle is

1173
01:04:15,800 --> 01:04:19,280
against Christ. There are many caesars now. The caliphates were

1174
01:04:19,320 --> 01:04:22,800
all against Christ. You know, all of these Caesars are

1175
01:04:22,800 --> 01:04:25,760
against Christ. Stalin Hitler, they were all against Christ. We

1176
01:04:25,840 --> 01:04:28,519
as Christians now are in a world where where we

1177
01:04:28,639 --> 01:04:33,719
have to re We're in a pre Constantine time and

1178
01:04:33,760 --> 01:04:37,519
we have to re envision what it means to reconvert

1179
01:04:37,559 --> 01:04:41,800
the empire, as it were, to reconvert the states that

1180
01:04:41,840 --> 01:04:45,440
we live in. And an example of someone who's done

1181
01:04:45,480 --> 01:04:49,360
that to some degree is the President of Hungary, you know,

1182
01:04:49,440 --> 01:04:53,639
who's very much about incorporating the idea of Christian identity

1183
01:04:54,079 --> 01:04:57,639
into his political narrative, even to the point that he

1184
01:04:57,679 --> 01:05:01,639
has established a political office, the Department of State, that

1185
01:05:01,840 --> 01:05:04,280
is dedicated to helping persecute a Christians.

1186
01:05:07,360 --> 01:05:12,280
Speaker 1: You know, that's a great point. Your thoughts, No, I

1187
01:05:12,360 --> 01:05:15,800
fully agree with that. I think that we're going to

1188
01:05:17,159 --> 01:05:17,639
let me ask you.

1189
01:05:17,639 --> 01:05:19,440
Speaker 3: A question then, because I mean one of one of

1190
01:05:19,480 --> 01:05:23,599
the arguments that's often used about, often used against this idea.

1191
01:05:24,559 --> 01:05:26,960
It is this idea that you know it was never

1192
01:05:27,000 --> 01:05:31,719
intended that the Church should be in power. How do

1193
01:05:31,760 --> 01:05:33,199
you respond to that? What's your thought on that.

1194
01:05:33,719 --> 01:05:38,440
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's a misunderstanding of the predictions and prophecies of

1195
01:05:38,480 --> 01:05:40,960
the Old Testaments. In fact, many times in Isaiah and

1196
01:05:40,960 --> 01:05:43,760
the latter chapters of Isaiah, Isaiah predicts that the Church

1197
01:05:43,840 --> 01:05:47,400
will actually have tremendous power and influence in the world.

1198
01:05:48,039 --> 01:05:51,519
In fact, kings and emperors and queens will submit to

1199
01:05:52,559 --> 01:05:54,559
the law as it goes for from Zion. And we

1200
01:05:54,599 --> 01:05:57,280
know that those are all predictions of the Messianic period

1201
01:05:57,360 --> 01:06:00,440
and therefore of the Church. So when Jesus established the kingdom,

1202
01:06:00,559 --> 01:06:04,039
if you look at Daniel two, the kingdom that the

1203
01:06:04,039 --> 01:06:06,800
Messiah sits up is the one that will actually conquer

1204
01:06:07,159 --> 01:06:09,800
the empire under which the Messiah is born. So Daniel

1205
01:06:09,840 --> 01:06:12,599
actually predicts in Daniel two, Daniel seven, and Daniel nine

1206
01:06:12,800 --> 01:06:15,239
the conversion of the Roman Empire. And I've made many

1207
01:06:15,320 --> 01:06:19,480
videos and discussions about this as a powerful prophetic testament

1208
01:06:19,679 --> 01:06:23,639
to the inspiration and authority of the scriptures. So it's

1209
01:06:23,679 --> 01:06:27,559
just a basic misunderstanding of what the doctrine of the

1210
01:06:27,599 --> 01:06:30,719
New Testament actually is. And it's assuming that it's out

1211
01:06:30,719 --> 01:06:33,559
of accord with all of those Old Testament prophecies of

1212
01:06:33,599 --> 01:06:36,840
the victory and power of the Church. In fact, all

1213
01:06:36,880 --> 01:06:40,800
of those prophecies and predictions, for example, about the covenant

1214
01:06:40,880 --> 01:06:43,679
curses and blessings in Deuteronomy twenty eight and the latter

1215
01:06:43,719 --> 01:06:47,400
chapters of Leviticus, those are actually applied in Revelation two

1216
01:06:47,400 --> 01:06:50,480
and three by Jesus himself to the church. The Covenant

1217
01:06:50,480 --> 01:06:54,599
curses and blessings model is applied to the Church, and

1218
01:06:54,719 --> 01:06:56,039
Jesus says that if.

1219
01:06:55,880 --> 01:06:58,239
Speaker 2: You are faithful to me, I will actually give you.

1220
01:06:58,239 --> 01:07:04,400
Speaker 1: A victory over your oppressors and over your persecutors. So

1221
01:07:04,559 --> 01:07:08,360
we aren't necessarily out first and foremost to seek political power.

1222
01:07:09,719 --> 01:07:12,039
We are out first and foremost to convert the nations.

1223
01:07:12,039 --> 01:07:15,159
And then political power itself again is from God. And

1224
01:07:15,239 --> 01:07:19,159
you have to deny ultimately the root of this in Genesis.

1225
01:07:19,159 --> 01:07:20,480
And this is of course why a lot of people

1226
01:07:20,519 --> 01:07:24,039
deny the text of Genesis. We're big defenders of Genesis here,

1227
01:07:24,360 --> 01:07:28,039
but God actually gave the right to exact the death

1228
01:07:28,079 --> 01:07:31,639
penalty to Noah. State rulers are not outside the authority

1229
01:07:31,639 --> 01:07:32,719
and providence of God.

1230
01:07:32,559 --> 01:07:33,679
Speaker 2: Even pagan emperors.

1231
01:07:33,719 --> 01:07:36,079
Speaker 1: If you read the Book of Daniel, you'll notice that

1232
01:07:36,119 --> 01:07:39,480
Nebucaneser was under the providence of God, and Daniel tells

1233
01:07:39,519 --> 01:07:43,400
Nebucaneser this that you need. Basically, the whole first several

1234
01:07:43,960 --> 01:07:47,039
chapters of Daniel is about Nebganese being humbled and realizing

1235
01:07:47,079 --> 01:07:50,159
that he has to submit to God. So the holistic

1236
01:07:50,199 --> 01:07:52,960
interpretation of the Bible from Genesis all the way up

1237
01:07:53,000 --> 01:07:57,719
through God consistently holds rulers, even pagan rulers, accountable to

1238
01:07:58,440 --> 01:08:00,440
He has moral law, accountable.

1239
01:07:59,880 --> 01:08:00,880
Speaker 2: To the Ten Commandments.

1240
01:08:01,800 --> 01:08:05,639
Speaker 1: So even though God providentially can use the pagan nations too,

1241
01:08:05,679 --> 01:08:08,440
for example, in the Old Testament chastise Israel many times over,

1242
01:08:09,360 --> 01:08:11,559
it doesn't mean that those.

1243
01:08:11,519 --> 01:08:12,599
Speaker 2: Rulers aren't accountable.

1244
01:08:12,639 --> 01:08:15,199
Speaker 1: In fact, in Isaiah, when God talks about using the

1245
01:08:15,239 --> 01:08:18,600
Babylonians against Israel as a chastisement, God says, I will

1246
01:08:18,640 --> 01:08:21,560
then turn around and chastise the Babylonians for their paganism

1247
01:08:21,600 --> 01:08:25,520
and their idolatry. So civil rulers are bound to Christ.

1248
01:08:25,600 --> 01:08:29,359
They have to submit to Christ. And that's always been

1249
01:08:29,520 --> 01:08:32,119
the doctrine of the Church. Now, there was some confusion

1250
01:08:32,159 --> 01:08:34,920
in the first second century of the Church because some

1251
01:08:35,000 --> 01:08:38,079
people like Tertullian and other people who didn't end up

1252
01:08:38,079 --> 01:08:41,479
being kind of are accepted theologians who were early writers.

1253
01:08:42,000 --> 01:08:44,039
They thought that, well, maybe the end of the world

1254
01:08:44,119 --> 01:08:46,720
is coming really soon, and maybe we're not supposed to

1255
01:08:46,720 --> 01:08:48,680
have anything to do with the civil state.

1256
01:08:49,079 --> 01:08:51,479
Speaker 2: But the Church, for the most part.

1257
01:08:52,079 --> 01:08:54,359
Speaker 1: In its saints and in it's recognized the Elogians. You

1258
01:08:54,359 --> 01:08:56,680
can actually read Saint Clement. The letters of Saint Clement

1259
01:08:57,279 --> 01:09:02,199
early early on, affirm the death penalty, and they affirm the.

1260
01:09:01,279 --> 01:09:05,079
Speaker 2: Duty of the ruler to God. Right, so this is

1261
01:09:05,159 --> 01:09:07,279
all just made up Enlightenment nonsense.

1262
01:09:07,439 --> 01:09:10,479
Speaker 3: There is a political narrative right there in the Church Fathers.

1263
01:09:11,039 --> 01:09:16,479
I think many Christians have this. Certain Christians have a

1264
01:09:16,520 --> 01:09:19,399
sort of false concept that it seems like only non

1265
01:09:19,439 --> 01:09:23,399
Christians are destined to be instituted into political office. And

1266
01:09:23,439 --> 01:09:25,920
it's you know, they read Romans thirteen, where it says

1267
01:09:26,159 --> 01:09:29,000
every person is to be subject in subjection to the

1268
01:09:29,039 --> 01:09:33,600
governing authorities, for there is no authority except from God,

1269
01:09:34,039 --> 01:09:37,680
and those which exist are established by God. Now they

1270
01:09:37,800 --> 01:09:40,760
use that, But then they have this really weird interpretation

1271
01:09:40,960 --> 01:09:44,479
that states that that only applies to non Christian political authority,

1272
01:09:44,920 --> 01:09:47,279
that actually it's all the Pagans, the Muslims, and the

1273
01:09:47,279 --> 01:09:50,319
Communists and the fascists that are destined to be in charge.

1274
01:09:50,760 --> 01:09:55,760
But if you take that worse seriously, then when Constantine converts,

1275
01:09:55,800 --> 01:10:00,880
so when a Christian president is in power, you know,

1276
01:10:01,039 --> 01:10:05,399
then that obviously applies to them as well, and they

1277
01:10:05,399 --> 01:10:07,960
are still a disciple of Christ even though they are

1278
01:10:08,000 --> 01:10:12,319
in political office. And then lots of Christians will will

1279
01:10:12,359 --> 01:10:14,439
have this idea, well, you know, it is a Christian

1280
01:10:14,760 --> 01:10:18,239
who's in political office, so they have to conduct themselves honestly,

1281
01:10:18,479 --> 01:10:20,560
and they have to be fair, and they sort of

1282
01:10:20,560 --> 01:10:23,439
treat it like, you know, like you would behave in

1283
01:10:24,319 --> 01:10:27,159
any everyday work that you might do that doesn't have

1284
01:10:27,399 --> 01:10:30,880
a greater wider social implication, and that you just have

1285
01:10:30,960 --> 01:10:34,399
to act with integrity. And they reduce the idea of

1286
01:10:34,399 --> 01:10:38,199
a Christian in political office to simply questions of integrity.

1287
01:10:38,800 --> 01:10:43,439
But that is that is not actually what natural law demands,

1288
01:10:43,520 --> 01:10:47,880
that is not what justice demands, it's not what Christian

1289
01:10:47,920 --> 01:10:51,439
discipleship demands. It means that a Christian has to pass

1290
01:10:51,560 --> 01:10:57,000
Christian policies based upon a Christian worldview, and that might

1291
01:10:57,119 --> 01:11:00,279
mean that they have to be pragmatic. Like Constant Team

1292
01:11:00,319 --> 01:11:03,920
was pragmatic. He didn't just become a Christian and then decide, right,

1293
01:11:03,960 --> 01:11:06,600
I'm going to destroy all the pagan temples. He just

1294
01:11:06,640 --> 01:11:09,880
did what was politically pragmatic for the good of the church.

1295
01:11:09,920 --> 01:11:12,119
And he passed the Edict of Milan, and he made

1296
01:11:12,159 --> 01:11:15,199
it legal to be a Christian, and he made Christianity

1297
01:11:15,399 --> 01:11:20,239
one of the official Roman religions, and then he allowed

1298
01:11:20,279 --> 01:11:25,359
restitution and he compensated Christians for their losses. But he

1299
01:11:25,359 --> 01:11:28,479
didn't suddenly start going around making, you know, the ancient

1300
01:11:28,479 --> 01:11:33,520
pagan Roman religions illegal. You know, so you've sometimes got

1301
01:11:33,520 --> 01:11:35,960
to be pragmatic because we still live in a sinful world.

1302
01:11:36,520 --> 01:11:39,199
But Christians should have a political vision and they should

1303
01:11:39,239 --> 01:11:43,239
seek to pass Christian laws. And so when a Christian

1304
01:11:43,319 --> 01:11:46,319
finds themselves in the political office, they should believe that

1305
01:11:46,399 --> 01:11:49,560
they are there because God put them there, which means

1306
01:11:49,600 --> 01:11:53,760
that they have a purpose for being there, you know.

1307
01:11:54,199 --> 01:11:57,319
And if you're truly to be governed by Christian discipleship,

1308
01:11:57,560 --> 01:12:00,000
then that means that the cause of the persecuted church

1309
01:12:00,119 --> 01:12:04,079
has to rank really, really high in your list of priorities.

1310
01:12:04,600 --> 01:12:06,840
It's got to be in the top three. You know.

1311
01:12:06,960 --> 01:12:09,760
It's kind of like, you cannot be a Christian and

1312
01:12:09,800 --> 01:12:13,359
when you have the opportunity to intervene against the persecution

1313
01:12:13,479 --> 01:12:18,640
of Christians, you do nothing. It cannot be that that,

1314
01:12:18,720 --> 01:12:22,159
when you have the actual ability and means an opportunity

1315
01:12:22,640 --> 01:12:27,520
to try and alleviate the persecuted church, that you do nothing.

1316
01:12:28,279 --> 01:12:30,680
When you have that power and authority. Me and you, Jay,

1317
01:12:30,720 --> 01:12:33,680
We're never going to get close to that kind of office.

1318
01:12:34,439 --> 01:12:38,359
But anyone whoever, ever ever hears this, whoever's listening to this,

1319
01:12:38,479 --> 01:12:42,880
you know, whatever position you're in in legitimate authority, you're

1320
01:12:42,880 --> 01:12:45,880
there because God put you there, and that means that

1321
01:12:45,960 --> 01:12:48,039
you have a purpose for being there.

1322
01:12:48,279 --> 01:12:48,520
Speaker 2: Yeah.

1323
01:12:48,680 --> 01:12:51,880
Speaker 1: Our model is you look at something like the Code

1324
01:12:51,920 --> 01:12:54,760
of Justinian. I mean, he's a saint and an Orthodox

1325
01:12:54,880 --> 01:12:58,520
emperor because he I mean he was also a theologian, right,

1326
01:12:58,560 --> 01:13:00,520
I mean we believe he was Orthodox. We believe that

1327
01:13:00,560 --> 01:13:06,119
he defined and laid out some solid Christological writings and confirmed.

1328
01:13:05,680 --> 01:13:06,560
Speaker 2: The Orthodox faith.

1329
01:13:06,680 --> 01:13:09,880
Speaker 1: So he is a model monarch, as are you know,

1330
01:13:09,960 --> 01:13:13,560
great Kings of Serbia, as are many Russian kings and

1331
01:13:13,560 --> 01:13:16,439
so forth. So that's the norm, that's the classical view.

1332
01:13:16,520 --> 01:13:20,000
And I really appreciate that you are bringing attention to this,

1333
01:13:20,119 --> 01:13:23,880
because the political sphere has to be governed by the

1334
01:13:23,880 --> 01:13:24,680
moral law of God.

1335
01:13:25,840 --> 01:13:26,279
Speaker 2: Yeah.

1336
01:13:26,319 --> 01:13:30,640
Speaker 3: Absolutely, But then you've got the question of, you know, politically,

1337
01:13:30,680 --> 01:13:32,680
what do we do when we're faced by caliphates and

1338
01:13:32,720 --> 01:13:37,399
communists and Nazis. You know, the reality is that Christians,

1339
01:13:37,479 --> 01:13:39,840
if you're a Christian, then that means that you have

1340
01:13:39,920 --> 01:13:42,680
to pursue the heart of God. You have to pursue

1341
01:13:43,079 --> 01:13:45,600
the things of God, and that means the justice and

1342
01:13:45,680 --> 01:13:49,920
peace of God. And that therefore ideologies that are opposed

1343
01:13:49,960 --> 01:13:51,920
to the justice and the peace of God, we as

1344
01:13:52,039 --> 01:13:57,039
Christians must oppose. You know, the limits of political authority

1345
01:13:57,079 --> 01:14:02,000
over the Church were limited when Peter. Let me just

1346
01:14:02,039 --> 01:14:05,520
find the passage in the Book of Acts where the

1347
01:14:05,560 --> 01:14:11,520
apostles were arrested. Right here we go in Acts chapter four,

1348
01:14:12,640 --> 01:14:20,279
when Peter and John were arrested and the Sahandarin basically

1349
01:14:20,359 --> 01:14:22,520
said to them stop preaching in the name of Christ.

1350
01:14:22,520 --> 01:14:26,159
So we read from verse thirteen. Now, as they observed

1351
01:14:26,720 --> 01:14:30,800
the confidence of Peter and John and understood that they

1352
01:14:30,840 --> 01:14:34,199
were uneducated and untrained men. They were amazed and began

1353
01:14:34,279 --> 01:14:38,199
to recognize them as having been with Jesus, and seeing

1354
01:14:38,279 --> 01:14:41,119
the man who had been healed standing with them, they

1355
01:14:41,119 --> 01:14:44,119
had nothing to say in reply. But when they had

1356
01:14:44,359 --> 01:14:47,079
ordered them to leave the council, they began to confer

1357
01:14:47,199 --> 01:14:50,199
with one another, saying, what shall we do with these men?

1358
01:14:50,560 --> 01:14:54,439
For the fact that a noteworthy miracle has taken place

1359
01:14:55,039 --> 01:14:57,800
through them is apparent to all who live in Jerusalem,

1360
01:14:58,079 --> 01:15:01,640
and we cannot deny it, so that it will not

1361
01:15:01,800 --> 01:15:04,760
spread any further amongst the people. Let us warn them

1362
01:15:04,760 --> 01:15:09,119
to speak no longer to any man in this name.

1363
01:15:09,920 --> 01:15:12,920
And when they had summoned them, they commanded them not

1364
01:15:12,960 --> 01:15:15,880
to speak or teach at all in the name of Jesus.

1365
01:15:15,880 --> 01:15:18,520
Now it's really important to recognize that this was the

1366
01:15:18,520 --> 01:15:23,479
civil authority. This was the civil authority of the time.

1367
01:15:23,560 --> 01:15:28,359
These people were speaking in their office, They were speaking

1368
01:15:28,399 --> 01:15:31,920
as the legitimate civil authority, and they were giving a command.

1369
01:15:32,479 --> 01:15:35,680
So these Romans thirteen kind of fundamentalists who believe that

1370
01:15:35,720 --> 01:15:38,119
you should just surrender everything to the state and obey

1371
01:15:38,159 --> 01:15:40,399
the state in every regard, no matter what it says.

1372
01:15:41,119 --> 01:15:44,560
Listen to the next bit. But Peter and John Ansiden

1373
01:15:44,640 --> 01:15:48,479
said to them, whether it is right, morally right, whether

1374
01:15:48,520 --> 01:15:50,760
it is morally right, whether it is right in the

1375
01:15:50,800 --> 01:15:54,680
sight of God to give heed to you rather than

1376
01:15:54,760 --> 01:15:57,640
to God, you be the judge. In other words, they're

1377
01:15:57,640 --> 01:16:01,720
saying that there is an authority higher than the civil authority.

1378
01:16:02,279 --> 01:16:04,720
There is an authority higher than the parliament. There's an

1379
01:16:04,760 --> 01:16:07,600
authority higher than the president. There's an authority higher than

1380
01:16:07,640 --> 01:16:11,239
the secular authority. And wherever that secular authority is opposed

1381
01:16:11,319 --> 01:16:14,319
to God, Christians must be rebels.

1382
01:16:14,600 --> 01:16:17,319
Speaker 1: Right, That's why there's martyrs. I mean, if if we

1383
01:16:17,479 --> 01:16:20,479
just submitted to anything that the emperor said or that

1384
01:16:21,000 --> 01:16:23,600
the pagan ruler said, then there wouldn't be martyrs. You

1385
01:16:23,600 --> 01:16:26,600
would just sacrifice to the to the gods, and you

1386
01:16:26,640 --> 01:16:27,000
would dig.

1387
01:16:27,239 --> 01:16:28,760
Speaker 3: The martyrs were deemed as criminals.

1388
01:16:29,159 --> 01:16:29,399
Speaker 2: Right.

1389
01:16:30,199 --> 01:16:32,760
Speaker 3: But you look at the church today and you hear

1390
01:16:32,840 --> 01:16:37,199
these wimpy Christians quoting Romans thirteen to try and avoid

1391
01:16:37,239 --> 01:16:38,800
any conflict with the secular states.

1392
01:16:38,880 --> 01:16:42,239
Speaker 2: Right, Yeah, that's total nonsense. Yeah, And we.

1393
01:16:42,159 --> 01:16:45,520
Speaker 3: As Christians, we need to rediscover this theology of martyrdom,

1394
01:16:45,600 --> 01:16:50,680
this spirituality of martyrdom, because right now the liberal Western

1395
01:16:50,720 --> 01:16:54,600
states are moving away from Christ. And it's reaching a

1396
01:16:54,640 --> 01:16:57,439
point now where Christians have to choose, who are we

1397
01:16:57,520 --> 01:16:59,960
going to follow? Are we going to follow the secular

1398
01:17:00,039 --> 01:17:03,880
a liberal state? You know, when when the secular liberal

1399
01:17:03,960 --> 01:17:05,960
state is telling you that you have to speak a

1400
01:17:06,000 --> 01:17:07,359
lie and you have to call a man a woman

1401
01:17:07,399 --> 01:17:09,479
and a woman and a man, and you have to,

1402
01:17:09,880 --> 01:17:12,239
you know, go along with abortion, and you know, you

1403
01:17:12,319 --> 01:17:15,640
have to go along with the whole liberal progressive agenda

1404
01:17:15,640 --> 01:17:18,520
about definitions of the family and you know, the ideas

1405
01:17:18,560 --> 01:17:21,039
of sexuality. And if you dare to speak out about

1406
01:17:21,039 --> 01:17:25,199
these things, you're guilty of thought crimes. If you speak

1407
01:17:25,239 --> 01:17:29,520
out against you know, multiculturalism, you're guilty of thought crimes.

1408
01:17:29,600 --> 01:17:32,479
And we're beginning to see people being politically persecuted in

1409
01:17:32,520 --> 01:17:35,800
the West for these things. Like we've got a choice

1410
01:17:35,800 --> 01:17:38,520
to make. Are we just going to go along with

1411
01:17:38,600 --> 01:17:42,000
a state? You know, the company mattresses are god kind

1412
01:17:42,000 --> 01:17:44,600
of spirituality that permeates so much of the Church of

1413
01:17:44,600 --> 01:17:48,600
England is not going to cut the kind of intolerance

1414
01:17:48,640 --> 01:17:50,760
that we're seeing and it certainly wouldn't survive in a caliphate.

1415
01:17:51,359 --> 01:17:54,279
You we've got to rediscover this idea of martyrdom. We've

1416
01:17:54,319 --> 01:17:57,600
got to rediscover this idea that actually, you know, where

1417
01:17:57,640 --> 01:18:00,239
the state is opposed to God, then then then that

1418
01:18:00,279 --> 01:18:03,159
means that we're in conflict with the state, you know,

1419
01:18:03,600 --> 01:18:06,920
and that means that Christians must actively work to bring

1420
01:18:07,079 --> 01:18:12,960
down those political offices, those powers that be, those powers

1421
01:18:12,960 --> 01:18:16,680
and authorities right are in opposed to the Gospel.

1422
01:18:16,880 --> 01:18:19,640
Speaker 1: Yeah, that's why I'm a constant critic of classical liberalism.

1423
01:18:19,640 --> 01:18:22,680
Classical liberalism will never be able to stand up against Islam.

1424
01:18:22,720 --> 01:18:27,399
Islam will crush the degeneracy that classical liberalism promotes and

1425
01:18:27,399 --> 01:18:30,439
allows because it is based on an atheistic presupposition. All right,

1426
01:18:30,479 --> 01:18:33,039
we're gonna have to take the superchats because I've got

1427
01:18:33,039 --> 01:18:35,439
a debate debate coming up here in a little bit.

1428
01:18:36,159 --> 01:18:38,840
Speaker 2: Okay, so let's do those superchats if we can.

1429
01:18:41,239 --> 01:18:41,399
Speaker 3: See.

1430
01:18:41,439 --> 01:18:46,079
Speaker 1: Let me pull this up here, so Slavk for ten pounds.

1431
01:18:46,119 --> 01:18:48,520
He says Islam came around six hundred years after Christ.

1432
01:18:48,880 --> 01:18:51,479
Martyrs died for nothing until some pagan guy saw an angel.

1433
01:18:51,560 --> 01:18:54,079
The only thing that they say in response to Acts

1434
01:18:54,079 --> 01:18:56,560
for twelve in Galatians one, Ace one eight is that

1435
01:18:56,600 --> 01:18:59,680
the New Testament is fake. So I think you're hinting

1436
01:18:59,720 --> 01:19:04,000
at the sort of regurgitated arguments that you hear from

1437
01:19:04,319 --> 01:19:05,159
Islamic apologists.

1438
01:19:05,159 --> 01:19:07,439
Speaker 2: Would you agree that the only thing.

1439
01:19:07,279 --> 01:19:11,079
Speaker 1: That they that they say is the New Testament is fake?

1440
01:19:11,199 --> 01:19:13,239
Is that kind of like a fallback that you usually

1441
01:19:13,239 --> 01:19:14,640
hear from from Islamic apology.

1442
01:19:14,720 --> 01:19:18,920
Speaker 3: Yeah, Muslims. Muslims will make this fake attempt at engaging

1443
01:19:18,920 --> 01:19:21,760
with the scripture by misquoting textual versus. But then when

1444
01:19:21,760 --> 01:19:24,079
you slam all their arguments by using the whole of

1445
01:19:24,079 --> 01:19:27,920
the scripture, their, their, their, their fallback position is always, well,

1446
01:19:27,960 --> 01:19:30,920
the scriptures were all corrupt and they're not trustworthy. But

1447
01:19:31,039 --> 01:19:33,199
yet that I am not yet able to meet a

1448
01:19:33,279 --> 01:19:36,199
Muslim that's provided any evidence of an original, Because if

1449
01:19:36,199 --> 01:19:38,239
you're going to say that something is corrupted, you've got

1450
01:19:38,239 --> 01:19:40,199
to be able to evidence that there was an original

1451
01:19:40,239 --> 01:19:42,920
that it was corrupted from. And the fact of the

1452
01:19:42,960 --> 01:19:45,640
matter is that Muslims have presented no evidence at all

1453
01:19:45,640 --> 01:19:48,840
for their idea of an ingeal that was first given

1454
01:19:48,920 --> 01:19:52,800
that as an incorrupted text that was suddenhow lost. There's

1455
01:19:52,800 --> 01:19:56,439
no evidence of such a text existing arguments that reference

1456
01:19:56,560 --> 01:20:00,000
Q and P. In terms of textual criticism. Well, these

1457
01:20:00,039 --> 01:20:02,199
are the sayings of Jesus that we have in the Gospels.

1458
01:20:02,279 --> 01:20:05,319
You know that that's why this correlation between the synoptics.

1459
01:20:05,319 --> 01:20:08,960
They're not proof of some they're not proof of some

1460
01:20:09,760 --> 01:20:15,359
Islamic in ingel their text that the if the theory

1461
01:20:15,439 --> 01:20:19,319
is true, that they're evidence of a Christian text, a

1462
01:20:19,399 --> 01:20:22,319
sort of manual of the sayings of Jesus that was

1463
01:20:22,359 --> 01:20:26,520
permeating the Christian community. And if you read the beginning

1464
01:20:26,520 --> 01:20:28,720
of Luke, you know that that's more than fits within

1465
01:20:28,800 --> 01:20:31,520
a Christian world view, because Luke actually references the fact

1466
01:20:31,520 --> 01:20:33,880
that other people had written down accounts even before he'd

1467
01:20:33,880 --> 01:20:38,159
written down his. So where's this, Jael, guys, where's the

1468
01:20:38,159 --> 01:20:38,640
evidence of.

1469
01:20:39,479 --> 01:20:43,399
Speaker 1: Okay, so Emil who monopolized the chat and wouldn't shut

1470
01:20:43,479 --> 01:20:45,279
up about this. It did end up getting banned, but

1471
01:20:45,319 --> 01:20:46,760
he left a super chat and he said Jay is

1472
01:20:46,800 --> 01:20:49,199
married the Mother of God only, the mother of his

1473
01:20:49,319 --> 01:20:51,680
humanity and his human nature.

1474
01:20:51,680 --> 01:20:52,640
Speaker 2: And do natures die?

1475
01:20:52,760 --> 01:20:55,720
Speaker 1: Now again, I answered this question multiple times when I

1476
01:20:55,760 --> 01:20:59,520
said that there was one divine person present, Cyril uses

1477
01:20:59,520 --> 01:21:02,239
the formula of a sole subject present for all of

1478
01:21:02,319 --> 01:21:04,520
Christ's in carnate actions. Who is the divine person of

1479
01:21:04,560 --> 01:21:07,720
the logos? There's no created human hypostasis in Christ. I've

1480
01:21:07,760 --> 01:21:10,680
done countless lectures on this. I lectured through the entirety

1481
01:21:10,720 --> 01:21:15,479
of the Exposition of Orthodox Faith. So I'm really depressed

1482
01:21:15,520 --> 01:21:18,680
that you monopolize the chat with this basic mistake. So

1483
01:21:18,720 --> 01:21:20,319
I'm going to read to you the section of John

1484
01:21:20,359 --> 01:21:23,399
Damascus's Exposition Orthodox Faith, Chapter twenty six, book three, where

1485
01:21:23,439 --> 01:21:25,159
he says, concerning the passion of our Lord and the

1486
01:21:25,199 --> 01:21:28,319
impassibility of his divinity. Did you hear me the Word

1487
01:21:28,359 --> 01:21:31,000
of God endured all of this in the flesh?

1488
01:21:31,079 --> 01:21:31,760
Speaker 2: What did I say?

1489
01:21:31,800 --> 01:21:35,319
Speaker 1: I said, he died in his flesh. He is a

1490
01:21:35,319 --> 01:21:38,920
divine person who underwent death in his flesh. That's his

1491
01:21:39,000 --> 01:21:43,560
human nature, while the divine nature alone was passionless and

1492
01:21:43,960 --> 01:21:47,520
remained devoid of passion. Can you read that his divine

1493
01:21:47,600 --> 01:21:52,159
nature was passionless and remained devoid of passion, So his

1494
01:21:52,359 --> 01:21:54,039
human nature died.

1495
01:21:54,840 --> 01:21:56,880
Speaker 2: Does that mean that Mary is Christodicos?

1496
01:21:57,359 --> 01:21:59,840
Speaker 1: No, we're not an historian. So there's two ways that

1497
01:21:59,840 --> 01:22:02,159
you could understand this. You can understand this in the

1498
01:22:02,159 --> 01:22:06,239
way that Saint Cyril does, who invented the term communicatio idiomodem,

1499
01:22:06,439 --> 01:22:08,920
which is the communication of properties, which is that whatever's

1500
01:22:08,920 --> 01:22:11,720
true of either nature can be spoken of the whole Christ.

1501
01:22:12,239 --> 01:22:16,479
It doesn't mean that the divine hypostasis died. As a

1502
01:22:16,520 --> 01:22:20,159
divine hypostasis, he underwent death. He yes, that subject in

1503
01:22:20,239 --> 01:22:24,199
his human nature, his divine hypostasis did not die. And

1504
01:22:24,239 --> 01:22:26,119
as John goes on to talk about the death and

1505
01:22:26,159 --> 01:22:29,439
descent of Christ, he makes that very clear. The word

1506
01:22:29,520 --> 01:22:33,479
of God, the logos, remained inseparable from the soul and

1507
01:22:33,560 --> 01:22:37,000
the body even at his death, and his subsistence continued

1508
01:22:37,039 --> 01:22:39,079
to be one that refutes everything that you said.

1509
01:22:39,439 --> 01:22:40,079
Speaker 2: Let's move on.

1510
01:22:40,119 --> 01:22:45,800
Speaker 3: To the title. Theotokos is obviously a defense of Christ's divinity, right.

1511
01:22:45,840 --> 01:22:47,880
Speaker 1: It's a defense of the fact that the divine person

1512
01:22:47,920 --> 01:22:49,920
that she get, the only person that she gave birth to,

1513
01:22:50,319 --> 01:22:51,199
is a divine person.

1514
01:22:51,520 --> 01:22:51,720
Speaker 2: Right.

1515
01:22:52,239 --> 01:22:54,760
Speaker 1: So did he get his human nature from her? Yes,

1516
01:22:54,800 --> 01:22:57,720
But the person that she gave birth to is the logos.

1517
01:22:57,760 --> 01:23:01,399
I have lectured on Saint Cyril against an Astorreus for years.

1518
01:23:01,760 --> 01:23:03,600
I don't know why you would even come in here

1519
01:23:03,600 --> 01:23:06,720
and make this silly argument. Alfonso Corral ten dollars, here's

1520
01:23:06,720 --> 01:23:09,159
some mammon. Very a very interesting conversation so far.

1521
01:23:09,199 --> 01:23:10,880
Speaker 2: Well, thank you all. Fonzo appreciate that.

1522
01:23:11,640 --> 01:23:15,239
Speaker 1: Not a verse five bucks, She says, Jay good, amazing guest.

1523
01:23:15,399 --> 01:23:17,359
Love to see Bob the Builder as a regular Hello,

1524
01:23:17,439 --> 01:23:20,840
Bob brother, you're a legend at Speaker's Corner, so thank.

1525
01:23:20,760 --> 01:23:21,119
Speaker 2: You for that.

1526
01:23:21,800 --> 01:23:27,000
Speaker 1: And I don't see any more super chats, but that's okay. So, Bob,

1527
01:23:27,279 --> 01:23:30,520
do you want to promote your own channel or Soco films?

1528
01:23:30,520 --> 01:23:32,520
Speaker 2: Are both? Which one? Do you prefer to both?

1529
01:23:32,720 --> 01:23:34,520
Speaker 3: So? Yeah, I mean if you could share the link

1530
01:23:34,560 --> 01:23:36,279
to both the channels.

1531
01:23:36,439 --> 01:23:39,800
Speaker 1: Yeah, I put the Soco film's link in the description first,

1532
01:23:40,239 --> 01:23:42,560
so I'll add your live channel as well. But everybody,

1533
01:23:42,600 --> 01:23:46,439
if you want to subscribe to Bob's apologetics, go to

1534
01:23:46,479 --> 01:23:49,159
the link in the description show, which is two Soco films.

1535
01:23:49,840 --> 01:23:52,199
Speaker 2: And then again, yes, so I will be debating the

1536
01:23:52,359 --> 01:23:54,880
said a privationist, not a set of a contest.

1537
01:23:55,000 --> 01:23:56,520
Speaker 1: But by the way, they're going to fall into the

1538
01:23:56,520 --> 01:23:59,720
same problems in a little bit.

1539
01:24:00,079 --> 01:24:02,359
Speaker 2: Here, let's see what is it.

1540
01:24:02,239 --> 01:24:05,640
Speaker 1: It's twelve forty in one hour on Ralph's channel on

1541
01:24:05,800 --> 01:24:07,199
d Live, so.

1542
01:24:07,439 --> 01:24:08,439
Speaker 2: Come here that debate.

1543
01:24:08,720 --> 01:24:11,159
Speaker 1: This guy made a big stink in the last couple

1544
01:24:11,159 --> 01:24:14,439
of weeks and almost all of his videos are insults

1545
01:24:14,560 --> 01:24:20,079
and at Hominem's and cussing at me. So I don't

1546
01:24:20,079 --> 01:24:21,640
know that this is going to be much of a debate.

1547
01:24:21,800 --> 01:24:23,720
I think he was trying to debate me, debate me

1548
01:24:23,760 --> 01:24:27,239
into this to get attention. Turns out the guy channels aliens,

1549
01:24:27,279 --> 01:24:33,279
he believes UFO's bombed Mars, he does past life regression therapy,

1550
01:24:33,279 --> 01:24:35,399
he believes in reincarnation. So I don't think this is

1551
01:24:35,399 --> 01:24:36,399
going to be much of a debate.

1552
01:24:36,439 --> 01:24:38,960
Speaker 2: But because a lot of people really wanted to see this,

1553
01:24:39,119 --> 01:24:41,399
I agreed to it. So that will be.

1554
01:24:41,439 --> 01:24:44,760
Speaker 1: At one fifty Central time. And thank you Bob the Builder.

1555
01:24:44,800 --> 01:24:47,239
Everybody go subscribe to Bob check out his debates.

1556
01:24:47,279 --> 01:24:47,960
Speaker 2: He's got tons and.

1557
01:24:47,960 --> 01:24:52,039
Speaker 1: Tons of debates at Speaker's Corner that are video on YouTube.

1558
01:24:52,119 --> 01:24:54,600
Speaker 2: You can watch all those, Bob, Will you come back

1559
01:24:54,640 --> 01:24:55,640
again for another chat?

1560
01:24:56,399 --> 01:25:00,000
Speaker 3: Yes? Absolutely, it's been a pleasure. Jay. What's this channel?

1561
01:25:00,079 --> 01:25:03,479
Call this particular? So this one is called Bob the

1562
01:25:03,479 --> 01:25:05,479
Build of Soco Films. If you want to if you

1563
01:25:05,520 --> 01:25:07,479
want to subscribe to that, the link will appear with Jay.

1564
01:25:08,119 --> 01:25:10,319
It's been a pleasure talking with you. Jay. I'm sure

1565
01:25:10,359 --> 01:25:12,159
that there's lots of people again to benefit and that

1566
01:25:12,239 --> 01:25:14,520
the church will hopefully be edified by this, and hopefully

1567
01:25:14,560 --> 01:25:17,960
some Muslims we'll actually engage with. You know, what Christians

1568
01:25:18,000 --> 01:25:20,439
really believe as opposed to what their Dowur team tells

1569
01:25:20,439 --> 01:25:22,680
them that we believe. And you know, it's been a

1570
01:25:22,720 --> 01:25:25,359
pleasure speaking with you. Let's let's do it again sometime.

1571
01:25:25,920 --> 01:25:29,600
And uh, you know, I'm appreciative of all the work

1572
01:25:29,600 --> 01:25:31,920
that you do. You know, it's a it's a great thing.

1573
01:25:32,079 --> 01:25:33,000
Speaker 2: All right, thank you very much.

1574
01:25:33,039 --> 01:25:35,439
Speaker 1: And again, if you want to check out my stuff,

1575
01:25:35,439 --> 01:25:36,560
go to Jasoniscels dot com.

1576
01:25:36,600 --> 01:25:39,920
Speaker 2: Subscribe to the channel below. You can get my books Esotery.

1577
01:25:39,560 --> 01:25:43,000
Speaker 1: Hollywood one and two where I cover symbolism and film.

1578
01:25:43,319 --> 01:25:45,960
So again look for the debate hearing about an hour

1579
01:25:46,079 --> 01:25:49,720
and signing off just before.

1580
01:25:49,479 --> 01:25:51,399
Speaker 3: You go to anybody who wants to I'm going to

1581
01:25:51,479 --> 01:25:54,520
do another Q and A after this back on our channel,

1582
01:25:54,560 --> 01:25:56,399
so if you want to knit back over in about

1583
01:25:56,399 --> 01:25:57,920
ten minutes, we'll do another Q.

1584
01:25:57,960 --> 01:25:59,800
Speaker 2: And A and that will be on Soco or on

1585
01:25:59,840 --> 01:26:00,279
you or.

1586
01:26:01,600 --> 01:26:02,760
Speaker 3: The build of Soco Films.

1587
01:26:03,000 --> 01:26:04,399
Speaker 2: Okay, so I'll put the link to that.

1588
01:26:04,479 --> 01:26:07,199
Speaker 1: Everybody go to Bob the Builder Soco Films if you

1589
01:26:07,239 --> 01:26:10,359
want to do Bob's Q and A, so hopefully you

1590
01:26:10,359 --> 01:26:10,880
guys enjoyed it.

1591
01:26:10,920 --> 01:26:12,079
Speaker 2: God bless, have a good night.

1592
01:26:12,560 --> 01:26:13,880
Speaker 3: God bless. Peace Ready take care,