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Every week another fascinating author talking about 32 00:01:32.799 --> 00:01:35.760 the most shocking and infamous killers in true crime history. 33 00:01:36.480 --> 00:01:41.280 True Murder with your host journalist and author Dan Zupanski, 34 00:01:51.439 --> 00:01:55.280 Good Evening, the story of a woman whose ambition and 35 00:01:55.400 --> 00:02:00.840 accomplishments far exceeded the expectations of her time. Eighteen Tiny 36 00:02:00.959 --> 00:02:05.159 Deaths follows the transformation of a young, wealthy socialite into 37 00:02:05.239 --> 00:02:09.960 the mother of modern forensics. Francis Glessner Lee, born a 38 00:02:10.080 --> 00:02:13.039 socialite to a wealthy and influential Chicago family in the 39 00:02:13.080 --> 00:02:16.800 eighteen seventies, was never meant to have a career, let 40 00:02:16.840 --> 00:02:20.400 alone one steeped in death into pravity. Yet she developed 41 00:02:20.400 --> 00:02:23.960 the fascination with the investigation of violent crimes and made 42 00:02:24.000 --> 00:02:27.400 it her life's work. Best known for creating the nutshell 43 00:02:27.439 --> 00:02:31.159 Studies of Unexplained Death, a series of dollhouses that appear 44 00:02:31.280 --> 00:02:35.520 charming until you notice the micabrel little details, an overturned 45 00:02:35.599 --> 00:02:39.159 chair or a blood spattered comforter, And then, of course, 46 00:02:39.360 --> 00:02:42.759 there are the bodies splayed out on the floor, draped 47 00:02:42.759 --> 00:02:46.199 over chairs, clothed in garments that Lee lovingly knit with 48 00:02:46.319 --> 00:02:51.159 sowing pins. Eighteen Tiny Deaths, by official biographer Bruce Goldfarb, 49 00:02:51.719 --> 00:02:54.960 delves into Lee's journey from grandmother without a college degree 50 00:02:55.479 --> 00:02:59.479 to leading the scientific investigation of unexpected death out of 51 00:02:59.520 --> 00:03:02.719 the dark ear finds of centuries old techniques and into 52 00:03:02.800 --> 00:03:04.159 the light of the modern day. 53 00:03:05.599 --> 00:03:09.000 Lee developed a system that used the nutshells dioramas to 54 00:03:09.120 --> 00:03:13.319 train law enforcement officers to investigate milent crimes, and her 55 00:03:13.400 --> 00:03:17.840 methods are still used today. Eighteen Tiny Deaths transports the 56 00:03:17.919 --> 00:03:20.439 reader back in time and tells the story of how 57 00:03:20.520 --> 00:03:23.560 one woman who should never have been allowed into the 58 00:03:23.599 --> 00:03:27.039 classroom she ended up teaching in changed the face of 59 00:03:27.199 --> 00:03:31.000 science forever. The book they're featuring this evening is eighteen 60 00:03:31.319 --> 00:03:35.879 Tiny Deaths, The untold story of Francis Glessner Lee and 61 00:03:36.000 --> 00:03:39.919 the invention of modern forensics, with my special guest, journalist 62 00:03:40.000 --> 00:03:43.680 and author Bruce Goldfarb. Welcome to the program, and thank 63 00:03:43.759 --> 00:03:45.039 you very much for this interview. 64 00:03:45.599 --> 00:03:50.400 Bruce goldforbe Hi, Dan, thank you for having me. Thank 65 00:03:50.479 --> 00:03:51.280 you very much. 66 00:03:51.520 --> 00:03:55.360 This is an incredible story and I'm sure the audience 67 00:03:55.560 --> 00:04:00.719 is going to love it. Let's I know this isn't 68 00:04:00.840 --> 00:04:06.560 really the order, but let's go to twenty twelve, and 69 00:04:06.680 --> 00:04:09.319 there's twelve or more editors as you write, touring the 70 00:04:09.360 --> 00:04:13.240 State of Maryland's state of the art Forensic Medical Center 71 00:04:13.479 --> 00:04:18.720 in Baltimore, and you were all working at a organization 72 00:04:22.240 --> 00:04:25.240 of a bunch of news sites that were owned then 73 00:04:25.360 --> 00:04:29.680 by AOL Huffington Post. Tell us about the circumstances in 74 00:04:29.800 --> 00:04:34.439 which you came to experience in twenty and twelve the 75 00:04:34.519 --> 00:04:38.959 nutshell Studies of Unexplained Death. Tell us about this whole 76 00:04:39.160 --> 00:04:41.959 experience and what it led to and how you came 77 00:04:42.040 --> 00:04:44.439 to be the author of eighteen Tiny Deaths. 78 00:04:46.959 --> 00:04:50.560 Well, as you say, I had been for many years 79 00:04:50.600 --> 00:04:55.040 committing journalism. I had actually written about the Nutshells many 80 00:04:55.120 --> 00:04:57.000 years ago, in nineteen ninety two, so I had a 81 00:04:57.079 --> 00:05:01.360 familiarity with the Medical Examiner's Office. I had visited several times, 82 00:05:01.439 --> 00:05:06.360 but it was in twenty twelve when I was writing 83 00:05:06.560 --> 00:05:11.560 for Patch, these hyperlocal news sites, and there was a 84 00:05:11.680 --> 00:05:15.519 gentleman in my community that I covered who worked at 85 00:05:15.519 --> 00:05:17.680 the Medical Examiner's Office. He was the director of it, 86 00:05:19.160 --> 00:05:22.920 named Mike Eagle, and he's a very interesting fellow and 87 00:05:23.800 --> 00:05:28.480 a firefighter ex military paramedic, and I just sort of, 88 00:05:28.639 --> 00:05:34.519 you know, had we sort of developed the Sprint relationship, 89 00:05:35.000 --> 00:05:39.879 and I asked Mike to the State of Maryland had 90 00:05:40.240 --> 00:05:44.079 just built, it was completed in twenty ten, this brand new, 91 00:05:44.560 --> 00:05:48.759 really state of the art, futuristic forensic medical center, and 92 00:05:49.800 --> 00:05:52.079 I asked Mike to arrange for a tour for us, 93 00:05:52.759 --> 00:05:56.519 and so we did, and we looked around and they 94 00:05:56.639 --> 00:06:01.279 had this gorgeous, brightly lit autime suites and the whole 95 00:06:01.319 --> 00:06:05.680 biosafety suite and the laboratories, and we saw the we 96 00:06:05.839 --> 00:06:10.199 were in the training facility for forensic investigators that was 97 00:06:10.319 --> 00:06:13.959 donated by Patricia Cornwall, the novelist, and it's just basically 98 00:06:14.040 --> 00:06:18.720 a studio apartment where death scenes are staged for training purposes. 99 00:06:19.199 --> 00:06:22.319 And he happened to mention, oh, by the way, we 100 00:06:22.519 --> 00:06:26.319 have this position that we're trying to fill looking for 101 00:06:26.680 --> 00:06:30.120 an executive assistant for the chief who would be a 102 00:06:30.360 --> 00:06:35.920 public information officer, and they're they're looking for somebody with 103 00:06:36.000 --> 00:06:43.399 a some medical experience, preferably media background, who you know, 104 00:06:43.800 --> 00:06:50.560 was comfortable dealing with the you know, law enforcement, government officials, 105 00:06:50.680 --> 00:06:53.879 the public and these sorts of things. And it honestly 106 00:06:54.120 --> 00:06:59.480 sounded written for me. I couldn't think of anybody else 107 00:06:59.480 --> 00:07:01.759 who is more we're suited for that kind of thing. 108 00:07:02.399 --> 00:07:06.040 And so I applied and it did take a while 109 00:07:06.319 --> 00:07:09.360 or the state has quite a hiring system, but I 110 00:07:09.439 --> 00:07:16.720 got the job, and so I it was just just 111 00:07:16.800 --> 00:07:19.240 having the opportunity to be in the building where the 112 00:07:19.319 --> 00:07:25.079 nutshells were located was an absolute thrill. But I became 113 00:07:25.360 --> 00:07:30.439 friends with Jerry D Jerry DJ Howitz, who is the 114 00:07:31.519 --> 00:07:35.279 fellow who keeps the keeper of the nutshell secrets, and 115 00:07:35.480 --> 00:07:39.160 he basically asked me to you know, you can take 116 00:07:39.199 --> 00:07:42.000 care of now, this is your problem. You can change 117 00:07:42.040 --> 00:07:45.079 the light bulbs, you can deal with it. That would 118 00:07:45.079 --> 00:07:53.519 be great. So I did, and I collected documents and photos. 119 00:07:53.680 --> 00:07:57.560 They're just it was extraordinary, and had the opportunity to 120 00:07:58.079 --> 00:08:01.600 really look at them very closely like I've never had 121 00:08:01.639 --> 00:08:04.519 before inside the cabinets and examined them and those sorts 122 00:08:04.560 --> 00:08:07.399 of things. So it really gave me an opportunity to 123 00:08:07.959 --> 00:08:11.800 gain a you know, deep appreciation form. And also through 124 00:08:12.920 --> 00:08:21.000 the job, I met Francis Glesler Lee's family, her descendants, 125 00:08:21.160 --> 00:08:24.879 great grandchildren, uh and great nieces and nephews, and these 126 00:08:24.920 --> 00:08:29.040 sorts of things. They'd come and visit, and I most importantly, 127 00:08:29.079 --> 00:08:33.159 I met William Tyer, who was the director and curator 128 00:08:33.240 --> 00:08:36.080 of the Glasner House in Chicago, which is now a museum. 129 00:08:36.840 --> 00:08:42.159 And you know, people would they visit, they're they're just 130 00:08:42.600 --> 00:08:45.440 fascinated by the nutshells and they'd ask, you know, well, 131 00:08:45.519 --> 00:08:48.080 you know, is there a biography? How can I learn 132 00:08:48.080 --> 00:08:52.799 about her? And and there wasn't one. And so, you know, 133 00:08:52.919 --> 00:08:55.399 Bill and I had talked about how unfortunate it was 134 00:08:55.480 --> 00:09:00.519 that there's so much misinformation about her online, in print, 135 00:09:01.279 --> 00:09:04.720 and so it became really obvious that somebody would have 136 00:09:04.919 --> 00:09:08.039 to write a biography. It hadn't been done. And I 137 00:09:08.480 --> 00:09:11.360 was in a position I sort of had a bigger picture. 138 00:09:12.039 --> 00:09:13.799 Not only you know, I had a sense of who 139 00:09:13.879 --> 00:09:18.480 she was, but how she fit into the whole issue 140 00:09:18.679 --> 00:09:24.519 of the Forrenzy death investigation. So that's how I got 141 00:09:24.960 --> 00:09:25.919 pushed in that direction. 142 00:09:28.879 --> 00:09:33.120 As you write in the book, and this is very important. Obviously, 143 00:09:33.919 --> 00:09:37.080 let's go back in history to the and explain the 144 00:09:37.200 --> 00:09:43.840 coroner system itself that was in its origins and it's 145 00:09:43.919 --> 00:09:46.879 a practical application in the United States. 146 00:09:47.080 --> 00:09:53.759 Take us back, well, the coroner system the coroner, the sheriff, 147 00:09:54.000 --> 00:09:57.840 the constable, and the justice of the peace. These are 148 00:09:57.919 --> 00:10:01.639 all officials that are actually a whole blovers from the 149 00:10:01.720 --> 00:10:05.399 Middle Ages. They date from the medieval England the twelve 150 00:10:05.480 --> 00:10:12.039 hundreds thirteen hundreds, and the coroner in particular was he 151 00:10:12.360 --> 00:10:18.840 was the royal, the judicial officer, judicial representative for the crown, 152 00:10:18.960 --> 00:10:25.320 the monarchy, and so his main responsibility was to collect 153 00:10:26.600 --> 00:10:31.480 things that were owed to the crown. He was first 154 00:10:31.559 --> 00:10:34.679 called a crowner, which ended up getting corrupted into corner, 155 00:10:35.240 --> 00:10:37.600 but that's what he was. He represented the crown, and 156 00:10:37.759 --> 00:10:45.320 so they did things like investigated shipwrecks and treasure troves, 157 00:10:45.879 --> 00:10:51.799 they seized royal fishes, and they also happened to investigate deaths, 158 00:10:53.320 --> 00:10:57.799 mainly to see if it were if it was a 159 00:10:57.840 --> 00:10:59.960 homicide or a suicide. Because there are a number of 160 00:11:00.120 --> 00:11:05.200 penalties and fines. There was, uh just a whole wacky 161 00:11:05.440 --> 00:11:12.240 system of penalties that were uh that they had to 162 00:11:12.320 --> 00:11:17.120 pay for various things such as when a body was found, 163 00:11:17.600 --> 00:11:20.440 it had to be accompanied at all times. If you 164 00:11:20.600 --> 00:11:23.480 if you didn't stay with the body, uh, there was 165 00:11:23.559 --> 00:11:27.039 a fine for that, and you couldn't move the body, 166 00:11:27.080 --> 00:11:30.360 you couldn't bury it. Now, back in these days, it 167 00:11:30.519 --> 00:11:33.000 wasn't uncommon for it to take days or maybe even 168 00:11:33.080 --> 00:11:35.440 weeks for a corner to actually show up. And that 169 00:11:35.600 --> 00:11:38.200 and the body had they had to view the body 170 00:11:38.600 --> 00:11:42.000 where it was. So it was you know, understandably quite 171 00:11:42.039 --> 00:11:44.720 tempting to perhaps bury it or you know, cover it 172 00:11:44.799 --> 00:11:47.799 with views and things. If you buried the body, there's 173 00:11:47.840 --> 00:11:51.480 a fine for that too. So if it turned out 174 00:11:51.600 --> 00:11:56.440 that the person had taken their own life, uh, suicide 175 00:11:56.679 --> 00:12:01.120 was a crime against the crown, and so you sacrifice, 176 00:12:01.120 --> 00:12:03.600 they would confiscate all your property and all your belongings 177 00:12:03.639 --> 00:12:08.000 and that and that's what they did. So it wasn't 178 00:12:08.679 --> 00:12:12.360 the corner doesn't have to have any medical training, doesn't 179 00:12:12.399 --> 00:12:16.480 have to have any background in law or anything like that. 180 00:12:17.440 --> 00:12:21.960 They would do things by impaneling a corner's inquest and 181 00:12:22.200 --> 00:12:26.399 having people vote on whether it was an accident, homicide, 182 00:12:26.440 --> 00:12:27.840 active god or whatever. 183 00:12:31.039 --> 00:12:34.360 You would also you also write that the jurors would 184 00:12:34.399 --> 00:12:37.879 be forced to be at that crime scene or at 185 00:12:37.919 --> 00:12:40.919 a crime scene to observe the body. And as you're right, 186 00:12:40.960 --> 00:12:46.000 there's that's problematic in and itself in terms of crime solving. 187 00:12:47.639 --> 00:12:50.879 It is and back in the day of course, the 188 00:12:51.000 --> 00:12:56.759 inquest jury were whoever was locally there at hand. Any 189 00:12:57.200 --> 00:13:00.559 adult male was eligible to sit on an inquess jury. 190 00:13:01.360 --> 00:13:05.159 Back in the day, an adult male is age twelve 191 00:13:05.320 --> 00:13:09.279 or older. So you know, many of these people they 192 00:13:09.320 --> 00:13:11.559 may have been neighbors, they could they could have been witnesses, 193 00:13:11.639 --> 00:13:15.840 they could have been related to the decedents and so uh. 194 00:13:16.279 --> 00:13:19.720 And of course these are for the most part illiterate 195 00:13:20.799 --> 00:13:26.399 farmers with no particular training, and so they were. There 196 00:13:26.519 --> 00:13:32.440 was a requirement it's called the uh supervisium couporus or corporus. 197 00:13:33.000 --> 00:13:33.120 UH. 198 00:13:33.399 --> 00:13:35.360 They were required to u pine view of the body. 199 00:13:35.480 --> 00:13:38.200 They were required to look at the body, really examine 200 00:13:38.240 --> 00:13:39.919 it and look for wounds and these sorts of things. 201 00:13:41.000 --> 00:13:45.759 But you know, absence any sort of medical training, there's 202 00:13:45.919 --> 00:13:48.919 really not too much that a person, you know, untrained 203 00:13:48.919 --> 00:13:51.480 person can tell just by looking at a at a 204 00:13:51.559 --> 00:13:56.279 dead body. So you know, it's it's not It leaves 205 00:13:56.320 --> 00:13:57.240 a lot to be desired. 206 00:13:59.080 --> 00:14:03.320 You write about nineteen forty four and you offer a 207 00:14:03.440 --> 00:14:07.879 statistic one point four Americans died in nineteen forty four, 208 00:14:07.919 --> 00:14:13.200 and you say one in five were unexpected in sudden deaths. 209 00:14:13.879 --> 00:14:17.399 And of these a small fraction one or two percent 210 00:14:17.559 --> 00:14:23.360 were investigated by qualified medical examiners doctors again, as you say, 211 00:14:23.960 --> 00:14:27.480 with specialized training to determine cause and manner of death. 212 00:14:28.639 --> 00:14:32.679 At the time, only a few places like Boston, New York, Baltimore, 213 00:14:32.759 --> 00:14:39.600 and Newark had competent medical examiners. Tell us what the 214 00:14:39.679 --> 00:14:44.240 state of the system, the coroner system meant in practical 215 00:14:44.399 --> 00:14:48.559 terms in nineteen forty four in most of the US. 216 00:14:51.000 --> 00:14:56.320 For most of the American history, the United States was 217 00:14:56.399 --> 00:15:02.639 on the coroner system. When the North America was colonized 218 00:15:02.720 --> 00:15:05.919 by the Europeans, they brought over English common law with them, 219 00:15:06.039 --> 00:15:09.720 so we are in the corner system since the colonial 220 00:15:09.799 --> 00:15:15.399 days and up until the first medical examiner was in 221 00:15:15.559 --> 00:15:21.840 Boston in eighteen seventy seven, there was very very little progress. 222 00:15:22.120 --> 00:15:26.639 From eighteen seventy seven up until you know, the nineteen thirties, 223 00:15:27.320 --> 00:15:30.240 so nineteen forty so you know, for a long long 224 00:15:30.320 --> 00:15:35.320 time progress was very, very painfully slow. And the coroner system, 225 00:15:37.000 --> 00:15:41.639 it really is unfortunately, you know, it's really set up 226 00:15:42.559 --> 00:15:53.799 for corruption, bribery, kickbacks, incompetence, indifference. The corners were often there. 227 00:15:54.279 --> 00:15:57.759 In some places. They still are elected to office, the politicians, 228 00:15:58.399 --> 00:16:03.039 and they run for office or the appointed by political people, 229 00:16:03.480 --> 00:16:07.279 So the qualifications for the job really had more to 230 00:16:07.360 --> 00:16:12.519 do with your political loyalties and affiliations rather than competence 231 00:16:13.159 --> 00:16:15.840 or dedication to the job, or proficiency or those sorts 232 00:16:15.840 --> 00:16:22.399 of things. So that was true for most of the country. Now, 233 00:16:22.639 --> 00:16:27.679 you know, there were no doubt, very good, well intended, 234 00:16:28.919 --> 00:16:33.639 decent men of good intentions serving as coigners, doing the 235 00:16:33.679 --> 00:16:37.960 best they could. But they didn't have any particular training 236 00:16:38.200 --> 00:16:42.679 in what we would consider forensic science. 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See website for details. 265 00:18:02.319 --> 00:18:08.519 As you write, let's talk about Francis Glessner Lee, her parents, 266 00:18:09.519 --> 00:18:13.400 the influence of her parents, her father and her mother, 267 00:18:14.240 --> 00:18:20.480 and the unusual or non typical childhood that she had 268 00:18:21.359 --> 00:18:27.880 and when she first thought she had a passion for medicine. 269 00:18:31.000 --> 00:18:37.319 She was. Francis was her parents, John Jacob Gleisner and 270 00:18:37.880 --> 00:18:44.440 her mother, Francis Macbeth Glessner. John Jacob owned a piece 271 00:18:44.640 --> 00:18:48.839 of He was in the agricultural machinery business, owned a 272 00:18:48.920 --> 00:18:52.000 company that was a part that became part of International Harvester, 273 00:18:52.799 --> 00:18:58.400 and really pretty fabulously wealthy by any standard. And so 274 00:18:59.720 --> 00:19:04.160 they they had two children. Francis was born in eighteen 275 00:19:04.160 --> 00:19:10.000 seventy seven. Her older brother, George, was seven years older. 276 00:19:10.079 --> 00:19:14.319 He was born just days before the Chicago fire. And 277 00:19:14.640 --> 00:19:20.480 so they were homeschooled, and the Glassners had the means 278 00:19:20.559 --> 00:19:25.640 to afford the finest instructors that they could fine, and 279 00:19:26.000 --> 00:19:30.640 their children were trained in music and art and dance 280 00:19:30.880 --> 00:19:37.599 and the classics and languages and literature and you know, 281 00:19:37.720 --> 00:19:43.240 the natural sciences. And they both played instruments and horseback 282 00:19:44.079 --> 00:19:47.839 writing lessons and dance lessons and all these things. And 283 00:19:47.960 --> 00:19:52.440 so by the time that they reached the age majority, 284 00:19:53.200 --> 00:19:55.720 by the time they reached adulthood, they had been provided 285 00:19:55.759 --> 00:19:58.440 in education at fire or fire seated anything and any 286 00:19:58.839 --> 00:20:03.319 that would be provided in the house school. Francis didn't 287 00:20:03.400 --> 00:20:06.920 go beyond that. She ended up getting married at age 288 00:20:07.599 --> 00:20:13.559 nineteen twenty years old, and you know, was headed towards 289 00:20:13.599 --> 00:20:18.880 the life of a of a you know, an upper 290 00:20:18.920 --> 00:20:22.880 middle class, a wealthy wife. Her brother went to Harvard 291 00:20:23.319 --> 00:20:25.720 Medical School, and I'm sorry he didn't go to Harvard 292 00:20:25.720 --> 00:20:27.519 Medical School. He was actually in the business school. But 293 00:20:27.599 --> 00:20:30.519 he went to Harvard and he met this a friend 294 00:20:30.640 --> 00:20:35.279 who was a medical student, George purchasman Grave, And she 295 00:20:35.559 --> 00:20:40.720 had had even as a child, she'd had an interest 296 00:20:40.880 --> 00:20:45.359 in medicine. She had a really rather harrowing experience having 297 00:20:45.400 --> 00:20:48.640 her cansels removed when she was a young child, and 298 00:20:48.799 --> 00:20:54.319 that sort of peaked her interest in medical care. She 299 00:20:55.519 --> 00:20:58.359 went with her doctor, the country doctor up in New 300 00:20:58.400 --> 00:21:01.160 Hampshire and his rounds tending to people and those sorts 301 00:21:01.160 --> 00:21:09.400 of things, and so she really didn't have an opportunity 302 00:21:09.480 --> 00:21:12.440 to act on these things until much later in life. 303 00:21:12.640 --> 00:21:16.519 There is a story that you read online that she 304 00:21:16.720 --> 00:21:19.599 was forbidden from going to college by her parents and 305 00:21:19.680 --> 00:21:23.880 these sorts of things, which is absolutely not true. There 306 00:21:24.000 --> 00:21:26.920 was only one place that she wanted to go to school, 307 00:21:27.640 --> 00:21:29.759 and that was Harvard Medical School. That she would have 308 00:21:29.960 --> 00:21:32.400 it was Harvard or nothing. They were a Harvard family, 309 00:21:33.400 --> 00:21:36.759 and her husband went there. Blewet Lee and her brother 310 00:21:36.880 --> 00:21:40.000 went to Harvard, and George McGrath went to Harvard, and 311 00:21:40.079 --> 00:21:44.200 even HH Richardson, who was the architect of the Chicago home. 312 00:21:44.319 --> 00:21:47.680 He was a Harvard guy, so they were a Harvard family, 313 00:21:47.880 --> 00:21:51.279 and Harvard did not admit women until nineteen forty five, 314 00:21:51.480 --> 00:21:56.440 so that was out of the question. So she mister changes. 315 00:21:57.920 --> 00:22:00.839 She was married, as you say to this blew at Lee, 316 00:22:01.079 --> 00:22:03.480 but she tired of the marriage or it didn't work 317 00:22:03.519 --> 00:22:06.720 out in her mind and was unfulfilling, as you write, 318 00:22:07.319 --> 00:22:12.160 and so that led her to indulge, we'll say, or 319 00:22:12.319 --> 00:22:17.720 explore her artistic passions and interests. The family was very 320 00:22:17.759 --> 00:22:20.920 interested in art, but especially interested in music and the 321 00:22:21.039 --> 00:22:26.920 symphony in Chicago. Tell us what she does in terms 322 00:22:26.960 --> 00:22:29.119 of the interest in those regards. 323 00:22:30.519 --> 00:22:34.559 Well, her mother, Francis macbeth, was an amazing, remarkable woman. 324 00:22:34.680 --> 00:22:37.839 She was a silver smith. She was a very talented seamstress, 325 00:22:38.680 --> 00:22:45.039 and she taught Francis from the earliest childhood in all 326 00:22:45.160 --> 00:22:51.880 sorts of needle work, sewing, knitting, crochet, and these sorts 327 00:22:51.920 --> 00:22:55.839 of things, and so it was like second nature to 328 00:22:55.880 --> 00:22:59.920 her the whole family. Francis what she's what she was, 329 00:23:00.200 --> 00:23:02.880 you know, she made her own clothes and these sorts 330 00:23:02.880 --> 00:23:05.880 of things. As an adult, she made her choke clothes 331 00:23:05.960 --> 00:23:14.119 for her children, and they were very uh uh. They 332 00:23:14.160 --> 00:23:20.400 were uh doleinated to the Chicago Symphony Orchestra. They were 333 00:23:21.440 --> 00:23:24.559 big fans of the of the cultural arts, in particular, 334 00:23:24.799 --> 00:23:30.039 particularly the symphonic music, and so they they went to 335 00:23:30.119 --> 00:23:33.200 the Chicago Symphony Orchestra a lot, and they had personal 336 00:23:33.279 --> 00:23:36.920 relationships with the conductor and many musicians, and they often 337 00:23:37.039 --> 00:23:40.039 had the entire orchestra to their home for dinner and 338 00:23:40.119 --> 00:23:43.799 these sorts of things, and so sort of on a whim, 339 00:23:44.880 --> 00:23:47.240 her her mother had remarked, how wonderful would it be 340 00:23:47.440 --> 00:23:49.799 just to have the orchestra here, you know, all the time, 341 00:23:49.880 --> 00:23:54.000 in the house. And so that got Francis to thinking 342 00:23:54.640 --> 00:24:01.039 to recreate the entire Chicago Symphony orchestra. Inure she did. 343 00:24:03.400 --> 00:24:07.240 There were ninety figures, all in the scale of one 344 00:24:07.319 --> 00:24:10.559 inch to one foot, and she made the clothing evening 345 00:24:11.160 --> 00:24:15.160 evening dress with a little carnation in the lapel, and 346 00:24:15.599 --> 00:24:22.359 the musical instruments some were fabricated, some were acquired. A 347 00:24:22.440 --> 00:24:26.240 little small harp was made for her by a harp company, 348 00:24:26.319 --> 00:24:29.000 along with a little k sport and everything, and this 349 00:24:29.119 --> 00:24:32.559 thing ended up being eight feet long. She had a 350 00:24:32.640 --> 00:24:38.680 carpenter create a raised podium stairstep podium like that, and 351 00:24:39.400 --> 00:24:43.559 She did this entire thing, the ninety pieces in ninety days. 352 00:24:43.880 --> 00:24:49.000 That was three months of work. So a year or 353 00:24:49.039 --> 00:24:54.000 so later she did a quartet, the Flanseelee Quartet, which 354 00:24:54.119 --> 00:24:56.559 was a huge deal. They're sort of the food fighters 355 00:24:56.640 --> 00:25:00.400 of string quartets of the day, and she did those 356 00:25:00.440 --> 00:25:03.359 four pieces in the same scale. And so this was, 357 00:25:04.880 --> 00:25:06.960 you know, this was part of her background. This is 358 00:25:07.000 --> 00:25:09.279 what people did miniatures with much more of a thing. 359 00:25:09.680 --> 00:25:11.640 Her neighbors. She had a neighbor and a friend. 360 00:25:12.480 --> 00:25:12.759 You were. 361 00:25:13.000 --> 00:25:16.839 Our listeners may be familiar with Narcissa Thorn the Thorn Rooms. 362 00:25:16.880 --> 00:25:19.720 That are these well known miniatures that are on exhibit 363 00:25:19.720 --> 00:25:24.240 at the Artistitute of Chicago and Francis Plesner Lee and 364 00:25:24.319 --> 00:25:30.279 Narcissa Thorn were friends and neighbors and contemporaries, but dalhouses 365 00:25:30.319 --> 00:25:33.640 and miniatures were much more within They're quite popular today, 366 00:25:33.720 --> 00:25:35.240 but it was much more common back then. 367 00:25:37.960 --> 00:25:40.680 Now you write about her obsession to detail, and that's 368 00:25:40.759 --> 00:25:43.839 going to be important to everything that she does, is 369 00:25:43.920 --> 00:25:48.279 that a need to have incredible detail and control. And 370 00:25:48.400 --> 00:25:52.720 she's very very persistent and very very energetic in her pursuits. 371 00:25:53.920 --> 00:25:57.839 Tell us how she comes to know our brother meets 372 00:25:58.279 --> 00:26:02.000 George McGrath, as you her brother George Well tell us 373 00:26:02.079 --> 00:26:06.480 how she comes to find out more about what McGrath 374 00:26:06.720 --> 00:26:10.160 is all about and what he's interested in, and what 375 00:26:10.319 --> 00:26:14.119 their relationship develops into from that point. 376 00:26:15.160 --> 00:26:20.680 It's really very quite interesting because she had, as you said, 377 00:26:20.759 --> 00:26:23.079 she had been married for a while. It didn't stick. 378 00:26:23.160 --> 00:26:25.640 It was not a happy marriage, and they separated or 379 00:26:25.680 --> 00:26:31.279 the divorced, and she was sort of looking for something 380 00:26:31.359 --> 00:26:36.000 to do. In World War One, she volunteered with a 381 00:26:38.119 --> 00:26:41.680 home in a settlement home in Boston for a soldiers 382 00:26:41.720 --> 00:26:45.240 returning from World War One, and she had the sense of, 383 00:26:45.599 --> 00:26:49.440 you know, public public service. She said that she felt 384 00:26:49.519 --> 00:26:51.400 that she had been born with a silver spoon in 385 00:26:51.480 --> 00:26:55.400 her mouth, and she'd never had to work a day 386 00:26:55.440 --> 00:26:57.880 in her life for what she had, and she felt 387 00:26:57.920 --> 00:27:03.680 some a need to do something for others to justify 388 00:27:03.759 --> 00:27:08.240 her existence. And through the nineteen twenties she operated an 389 00:27:08.599 --> 00:27:11.680 antique shop with her daughter, But by nineteen twenty nine 390 00:27:12.119 --> 00:27:16.240 she's really at a deep point in her life. Her daughter, 391 00:27:16.440 --> 00:27:18.720 she closed up the antique shop. Her daughter got married 392 00:27:18.880 --> 00:27:21.720 and weren't doing that any longer. She had her some 393 00:27:21.880 --> 00:27:25.359 health problems, and her brother had died. Her only sibling, 394 00:27:25.960 --> 00:27:28.720 and summer of nineteen twenty nine, she was just really 395 00:27:28.759 --> 00:27:31.359 in a funk, and she was in the hospital recuperating 396 00:27:32.119 --> 00:27:37.880 from a surgical procedure at Phillip's house in Boston, and 397 00:27:38.440 --> 00:27:43.839 who should be there at the same time, hospitalized recuperating 398 00:27:43.960 --> 00:27:48.880 with George Burgess McGrath, who unfortunately had siulitis in both 399 00:27:48.960 --> 00:27:51.680 of his hands, a very very serious condition, and he 400 00:27:51.839 --> 00:27:55.680 was being treated to that. And so they they're old friends. 401 00:27:55.759 --> 00:27:59.400