1 00:00:00,080 --> 00:00:03,720 Speaker 1: One of the questions people have sometimes is to wonder, 2 00:00:03,879 --> 00:00:07,160 what exactly is the role of Saint John the Baptist, 3 00:00:07,160 --> 00:00:09,720 Saint John the foreigner? You know, why do we need 4 00:00:09,759 --> 00:00:14,039 this kind of wily, strange character to appear before the 5 00:00:14,080 --> 00:00:17,519 coming of Christ? And so I thought this could be 6 00:00:17,559 --> 00:00:20,000 an interesting thing to talk about. To look at it structurally, 7 00:00:20,039 --> 00:00:22,559 there are, of course many things we could say, but 8 00:00:22,640 --> 00:00:24,679 I really want to look at it in terms of structure, 9 00:00:24,719 --> 00:00:27,640 in terms of you know, in terms of the symbolic 10 00:00:27,679 --> 00:00:29,879 structure that we talk about, and what role it is 11 00:00:29,920 --> 00:00:31,320 that Saint John plays in that. 12 00:00:43,119 --> 00:00:58,600 Speaker 2: This is Jonathan Pejel, Welcome to the symbolic world. Now. 13 00:00:58,600 --> 00:01:04,680 Speaker 1: Saint John appears, of course before Christ as this rather 14 00:01:04,760 --> 00:01:08,760 wild looking character who stands out in the wilderness. He 15 00:01:08,879 --> 00:01:15,000 wears camel hair, he eats grasshoppers, and he eats honey, 16 00:01:15,640 --> 00:01:18,519 and he stands there at the outside of. 17 00:01:18,680 --> 00:01:21,200 Speaker 2: The city, you know, near the Jordan River. 18 00:01:21,920 --> 00:01:24,280 Speaker 1: Which is the edge really if you have to understand 19 00:01:24,319 --> 00:01:26,200 the Jordan River as kind of the edge of the 20 00:01:26,640 --> 00:01:30,159 of of Israel in terms of symbolism, we'll see why 21 00:01:30,200 --> 00:01:34,799 that's the case. And he tells people to repent, and 22 00:01:34,840 --> 00:01:39,120 he says the Kingdom of God is near, repent, turn 23 00:01:39,159 --> 00:01:43,920 away from your sins, and he baptizes people. Now again, 24 00:01:44,079 --> 00:01:49,519 it's it's very interesting because of course baptism in the 25 00:01:49,920 --> 00:01:52,879 in the the text, it appears as something which is obvious, 26 00:01:53,560 --> 00:01:57,359 you know, but there there aren't baptism in the Old Testaments. 27 00:01:57,359 --> 00:02:00,400 There are things that are akin to baptism, and we 28 00:02:00,519 --> 00:02:04,120 look at those as well, but there isn't baptism proper 29 00:02:04,879 --> 00:02:10,039 in the Old Testament. So the key to understanding Saint 30 00:02:10,120 --> 00:02:14,960 John the Foreigner and his role is something like the 31 00:02:15,080 --> 00:02:20,159 role of destruction, the role of the destruction of the 32 00:02:20,319 --> 00:02:26,639 old thing that is not appropriate. And so we have structures. 33 00:02:26,680 --> 00:02:28,520 So you know, we talk about hierarchy on this channel 34 00:02:28,560 --> 00:02:30,840 all the time, and of course hierarchies are good, but 35 00:02:30,879 --> 00:02:32,639 there are definitely bad hierarchies. 36 00:02:33,000 --> 00:02:36,400 Speaker 2: You know. Oh, case in point. I totally didn't plan this, 37 00:02:36,479 --> 00:02:38,479 but I have a grant here case in point. 38 00:02:38,800 --> 00:02:41,599 Speaker 1: You know, that's what Jack and the Fallen Giants is about, 39 00:02:41,680 --> 00:02:44,560 to some extent, you know, which is in some ways 40 00:02:44,599 --> 00:02:48,360 the dangers and the problems of hierarchy, you know. But 41 00:02:48,560 --> 00:02:50,840 often all the things that we build in our lives, 42 00:02:50,879 --> 00:02:53,639 like the false idols and the false temples and the 43 00:02:54,159 --> 00:02:58,080 you know, and the the edifices that we construct, you know, 44 00:02:58,199 --> 00:03:01,280 to the to foreign gods, you know, whether it's to 45 00:03:01,360 --> 00:03:03,800 our own success or whether it's to you know, to 46 00:03:04,039 --> 00:03:07,120 just just making more money, or you know, to get 47 00:03:07,120 --> 00:03:08,159 what we think. 48 00:03:07,960 --> 00:03:10,360 Speaker 2: We deserve, to get what we want. You know, all 49 00:03:10,439 --> 00:03:11,039 of these. 50 00:03:10,840 --> 00:03:15,159 Speaker 1: Things they have the structure of a hierarchy, and usually 51 00:03:15,240 --> 00:03:20,560 they will be little, you know, little microcosms of the world. 52 00:03:20,599 --> 00:03:24,080 But they are in some ways inappropriate because they're not 53 00:03:24,159 --> 00:03:27,560 aimed in the right direction, because they are they're skewed, 54 00:03:27,599 --> 00:03:30,680 they're crooked, they're not completely straight in the sense that 55 00:03:30,719 --> 00:03:32,719 they don't aim high enough. You know, they kind of 56 00:03:32,759 --> 00:03:36,280 stop before that. They are, for all intentsive purposes, towers 57 00:03:36,319 --> 00:03:41,319 of Babel, and you know, in order for you to 58 00:03:41,360 --> 00:03:44,120 come to truth and to be able to participate in 59 00:03:44,199 --> 00:03:47,639 the proper hierarchies and the proper orders of the world, 60 00:03:48,039 --> 00:03:51,159 the first thing that needs to happen is, of course, 61 00:03:51,280 --> 00:03:52,560 the destruction. 62 00:03:52,879 --> 00:03:55,400 Speaker 2: Of the old in order for the new to begin. 63 00:03:55,639 --> 00:03:59,039 Speaker 1: Now, this is the role that Saint John plays, and 64 00:03:59,719 --> 00:04:03,680 you'll see how it iterates itself at all the levels 65 00:04:04,120 --> 00:04:06,520 that Saint John talks about. 66 00:04:06,560 --> 00:04:09,000 Speaker 2: But before we look at that we want to look at. 67 00:04:08,960 --> 00:04:12,240 Speaker 1: You know, some of the Old Testament prefigurations of Saint 68 00:04:12,319 --> 00:04:17,160 John of this kind of destruction before the new world. 69 00:04:17,199 --> 00:04:19,920 Now there are a few examples. Right at the beginning. 70 00:04:20,199 --> 00:04:25,279 There's of course, the flood itself is an example of that, 71 00:04:25,360 --> 00:04:32,160 where the entire civilization is destroyed. It's put through the waters, 72 00:04:32,279 --> 00:04:36,680 you know, in order for there to become a new world, 73 00:04:36,720 --> 00:04:39,160 you know, for the world to be made new, to 74 00:04:39,279 --> 00:04:44,319 receive a new revelation from God and to reconnect with God. 75 00:04:44,439 --> 00:04:47,240 You know, during the time of the flood, there's a 76 00:04:47,360 --> 00:04:49,959 kind of forgetting, you know, and you see that in 77 00:04:50,000 --> 00:04:51,920 the description of the flood, because at the end of 78 00:04:51,920 --> 00:04:56,360 the flood it says, you know, God remembered Noah, and 79 00:04:56,399 --> 00:05:00,519 there remembering between God and Noah. The remember between the 80 00:05:00,560 --> 00:05:06,439 people and God is this reconnection between the heaven and 81 00:05:06,480 --> 00:05:10,120 the earth. But before that happened, there has to be 82 00:05:10,399 --> 00:05:13,199 a destruction. So that's why, of course the world is 83 00:05:13,240 --> 00:05:17,360 destroyed before the flood. Then it's reiterated. The whole thing 84 00:05:17,480 --> 00:05:20,319 is reiterated right after the flood in this little microcosm, 85 00:05:20,319 --> 00:05:22,920 which is the Tower Babbel. And the Tower Babbel, you 86 00:05:23,000 --> 00:05:25,720 see again the same thing, which is this building of 87 00:05:25,759 --> 00:05:28,920 an hierarchy, of a tower and a city, that it 88 00:05:29,040 --> 00:05:31,680 tends to touch the heaven, you know, and because of 89 00:05:31,680 --> 00:05:36,120 that presumption, because it is it is completely let's say, 90 00:05:36,240 --> 00:05:38,839 doing it on their own, without even trying to be 91 00:05:38,879 --> 00:05:42,000 connected to heaven, without receiving you could say, the impetus 92 00:05:42,000 --> 00:05:47,000 from heaven above it becomes an idol and it shatters, 93 00:05:47,160 --> 00:05:50,480 and so it is destroyed. But it's destroyed from above. 94 00:05:50,519 --> 00:05:54,160 God destroys it shatters the tower. Like it's not described 95 00:05:54,199 --> 00:05:56,360 in scripture, but in many traditions you have the idea 96 00:05:56,399 --> 00:05:59,000 that the tower falls, the tower crumbles, you know, things 97 00:05:59,040 --> 00:06:03,600 get restored back to normal, and then you know there 98 00:06:03,639 --> 00:06:07,680 has to be again a new beginning. There are again 99 00:06:07,839 --> 00:06:12,879 other examples. The example of the Exodus is the one 100 00:06:13,079 --> 00:06:16,240 which is probably one of the clearest. You have the 101 00:06:16,279 --> 00:06:20,800 pharaoh who's a tyrant, who is a representation of hierarchy. 102 00:06:22,000 --> 00:06:24,360 And in order for Israel to be able to enter 103 00:06:24,399 --> 00:06:27,399 into a new covenant with God, they first of all 104 00:06:27,439 --> 00:06:31,720 have to you know, the they have to go through 105 00:06:31,759 --> 00:06:33,720 the waters, right, they have to go down into the 106 00:06:33,720 --> 00:06:37,800 water and like restore the world, destroy the previous hierarchy 107 00:06:38,759 --> 00:06:42,160 and the soldiers of the Egyptians and their chariots. They 108 00:06:42,240 --> 00:06:45,079 are lost in the sea, and then they come out, 109 00:06:45,399 --> 00:06:49,399 and now it's time for a new revelation. They can see, 110 00:06:49,480 --> 00:06:51,879 like all right now, exactly what it is that Saint 111 00:06:51,959 --> 00:06:56,360 John is doing. He is kind of repeating this, you know, 112 00:06:56,439 --> 00:07:01,240 this crossing of the river and the destruction of the 113 00:07:01,279 --> 00:07:03,839 old world, the crossing of the river and then the 114 00:07:03,879 --> 00:07:05,639 re establishing of a new world. 115 00:07:06,959 --> 00:07:11,439 Speaker 3: Now, Hello, everyone, this is Annie Crawford inviting you to 116 00:07:11,560 --> 00:07:15,199 join me this January for a symbolic world reading of 117 00:07:15,319 --> 00:07:18,399 Till We Have Faces. The book C. S. Lewis calls 118 00:07:18,519 --> 00:07:21,519 far and away the best I've written. Till We Have 119 00:07:21,639 --> 00:07:25,360 Faces is Lewis's modern retelling of the myth of Cupid 120 00:07:25,439 --> 00:07:30,879 and Psyche, a mysterious tale of dark idolatry, classical enlightenment, 121 00:07:31,279 --> 00:07:35,279 and the shocking discovery of true religious vision. In our 122 00:07:35,360 --> 00:07:38,839 four week online course, together, we'll explore what C. S. 123 00:07:38,920 --> 00:07:41,879 Lewis has to show us about the nature of myth, 124 00:07:42,160 --> 00:07:45,480 the dangers of love, the limits of reason, and the 125 00:07:45,560 --> 00:07:49,839 secrets of genuine re enchantment. This is a book, an author, 126 00:07:49,959 --> 00:07:51,720 and a class you won't want to miss. 127 00:07:53,959 --> 00:08:00,560 Speaker 1: This, of course, is an image again of what Elijah did. Elijah, 128 00:08:00,800 --> 00:08:04,399 you know, participates in the falling apart of the Northern 129 00:08:04,480 --> 00:08:09,160 Kingdom of Israel, you know, and then he crosses the river. 130 00:08:10,120 --> 00:08:13,160 And when he crosses the river, there has to be 131 00:08:13,199 --> 00:08:14,920 a new beginning. And so because there has to be 132 00:08:14,959 --> 00:08:18,879 a new beginning, you can understand that in this particular version, 133 00:08:18,959 --> 00:08:21,399 Elijah has to go up, right, he has to be 134 00:08:21,439 --> 00:08:25,639 taken up and then and then there can be a 135 00:08:25,759 --> 00:08:29,040 kind of a new re establishment. Now the re establishment. 136 00:08:29,160 --> 00:08:31,319 It's it's interesting because it's hard for people to kind 137 00:08:31,360 --> 00:08:34,200 of see the re establishment. But you know, some of 138 00:08:34,240 --> 00:08:39,200 the miracles that Elisha does can help you understand the uh, 139 00:08:39,480 --> 00:08:42,279 you know, the new beginning. And so one of the 140 00:08:42,279 --> 00:08:47,279 things that Elisha does is that he finds iron axehead 141 00:08:48,039 --> 00:08:51,320 and raises it to the to the top of the 142 00:08:51,639 --> 00:08:55,080 of the waters, makes the axe head float, you know, 143 00:08:55,159 --> 00:08:57,480 and you think, what kind of weird miracle is that, 144 00:08:57,519 --> 00:09:01,360 But that's exactly it. It's exactly a miracle that would 145 00:09:01,360 --> 00:09:04,519 come after the crossing of the waters. It's like you 146 00:09:04,600 --> 00:09:07,320 go down into the waters and then you raise up 147 00:09:07,360 --> 00:09:10,799 the head, right that you raise up the head out 148 00:09:10,919 --> 00:09:13,559 of the water. Some of the body stays in the water. 149 00:09:13,679 --> 00:09:16,159 Some of the outer stuff, you know, some of the 150 00:09:16,159 --> 00:09:18,840 body that isn't appropriate stays in the water. And then 151 00:09:18,919 --> 00:09:22,879 the axe head that the top part gets taken out, 152 00:09:22,919 --> 00:09:25,840 and then there's a new world that is beginning. You know, 153 00:09:25,879 --> 00:09:27,600 there are plenty examples of that. I don't want to 154 00:09:27,600 --> 00:09:29,120 go into it. I'm going to bore you with like 155 00:09:29,240 --> 00:09:32,000 all the examples, but just to help you understand the 156 00:09:32,000 --> 00:09:37,559 structure of how this functions. And so Saint John does 157 00:09:37,600 --> 00:09:40,000 this in many ways. He does this over and over. 158 00:09:40,519 --> 00:09:40,679 Speaker 2: You know. 159 00:09:41,080 --> 00:09:43,559 Speaker 1: One of the things that he does is, of course 160 00:09:43,639 --> 00:09:46,919 he stands in the wilderness. He has to stand outside 161 00:09:46,960 --> 00:09:50,039 of the structure. He has moved outside of the structure 162 00:09:50,440 --> 00:09:54,159 and now is criticizing it and is telling people to 163 00:09:54,840 --> 00:09:59,320 abandon the evil structure, both in terms of leaving the 164 00:09:59,360 --> 00:10:02,799 city to be baptized, but then doing it personally in 165 00:10:02,840 --> 00:10:07,360 the sense of that's what sins are. Sins are inappropriate 166 00:10:07,399 --> 00:10:11,919 structures of patterns of action and of belief and of 167 00:10:13,360 --> 00:10:18,200 orientation that are inappropriate because they're not aiming in the 168 00:10:18,279 --> 00:10:20,480 right direction. And therefore, in order for you to be 169 00:10:20,519 --> 00:10:23,120 able to get a new revelation, in order for you 170 00:10:23,200 --> 00:10:25,679 to kind of enter into this new world. You have 171 00:10:25,759 --> 00:10:28,240 to get rid of that, so you have to repent, 172 00:10:29,679 --> 00:10:30,679 and it's repentant. 173 00:10:32,399 --> 00:10:34,360 Speaker 2: It is also taken into. 174 00:10:34,200 --> 00:10:41,320 Speaker 1: The waters, and you're representing, you're participating in the ancient stories. 175 00:10:41,360 --> 00:10:45,440 And so although baptism is not explicitly in the Old Testament, 176 00:10:45,519 --> 00:10:49,240 you could say that it's there everywhere. It's there everywhere 177 00:10:49,279 --> 00:10:52,480 where there's a transition between world where there is going 178 00:10:52,559 --> 00:10:55,200 to be an old world that will be destroyed and 179 00:10:55,279 --> 00:10:59,200 a new world that will be founded. Now, of course, 180 00:10:59,679 --> 00:11:03,639 there are aspects of Saint John's baptism that has even 181 00:11:03,639 --> 00:11:08,600 more dramatic implications, which is that he also seems to 182 00:11:08,639 --> 00:11:14,039 be prophesizing the destruction of Jerusalem, you know, and he's saying. 183 00:11:14,279 --> 00:11:18,240 Speaker 2: This world is going to end, folks, So where do 184 00:11:18,279 --> 00:11:18,799 you want to be? 185 00:11:19,080 --> 00:11:21,320 Speaker 1: Do you want to remain in the waters? Do you 186 00:11:21,360 --> 00:11:22,960 want to do you want to do you want to go? 187 00:11:23,080 --> 00:11:24,360 Do you want to burn up? Do you want to 188 00:11:24,360 --> 00:11:26,440 burn up like the old world? Or do you want 189 00:11:26,440 --> 00:11:30,759 to participate in a new world that is being established, 190 00:11:30,799 --> 00:11:33,679 a new world that will be established very soon? And 191 00:11:33,759 --> 00:11:36,039 so there's also that which is happening, And of course 192 00:11:36,039 --> 00:11:39,039 Saint John talks about he talks about the axe that 193 00:11:39,200 --> 00:11:41,399 is at the foot, that is at the root of 194 00:11:41,440 --> 00:11:43,559 the tree. It's like the axe is at the root 195 00:11:43,600 --> 00:11:46,399 of the tree. The axe is about to to cut 196 00:11:46,440 --> 00:11:49,919 off this tree, you know. And so all of that, right, 197 00:11:50,000 --> 00:11:53,720 what do you think that is that making the tower 198 00:11:53,759 --> 00:11:58,240 of Babel fall, destroying Babel and cutting the tree. These 199 00:11:58,279 --> 00:12:01,279 are exactly the same thing. If you been following, you know, 200 00:12:01,360 --> 00:12:04,960 the work on symbolism and kind of understanding how symbolism functions. 201 00:12:05,000 --> 00:12:07,960 A tower and a tree are the same in terms 202 00:12:08,039 --> 00:12:11,320 of their manifestation. They are order, right, It's like I'm 203 00:12:11,320 --> 00:12:14,639 going to cut down this order because it's not producing fruit, 204 00:12:15,360 --> 00:12:18,120 and we're going to throw it into the fire. And 205 00:12:18,159 --> 00:12:20,879 now we're going to plant a new plant, you know, 206 00:12:21,399 --> 00:12:24,000 or we're going to at least get rid of the 207 00:12:24,039 --> 00:12:26,240 branches that don't that don't bear fruit in the hope 208 00:12:26,240 --> 00:12:29,519 that the rest of the tree can produce, you know, 209 00:12:29,960 --> 00:12:33,559 fruitful branches. And so all of that is happening in 210 00:12:33,600 --> 00:12:37,679 Saint John. And of course it is clear as well 211 00:12:37,840 --> 00:12:41,519 in this idea that he is the voice in the. 212 00:12:41,440 --> 00:12:42,840 Speaker 2: Desert from Isaiah. 213 00:12:42,879 --> 00:12:45,559 Speaker 1: You know, this voice in the desert that is calling 214 00:12:45,600 --> 00:12:48,720 out and is saying make straight the way of the Lord. 215 00:12:49,399 --> 00:12:53,399 You know, bring down the mountains, raise up the valleys, 216 00:12:53,879 --> 00:12:58,360 make everything straight, make everything flat, you know, And that's 217 00:12:58,399 --> 00:13:01,440 the way to understand. It's like if you make things flat, 218 00:13:02,159 --> 00:13:06,360 then they are ready for a new world. Think about 219 00:13:06,360 --> 00:13:09,159 what you need to do if you're going to you know, 220 00:13:09,159 --> 00:13:11,480 if you're going to build a house. So you see, 221 00:13:11,480 --> 00:13:14,440 it happen all the time when they build things. You know, 222 00:13:14,480 --> 00:13:19,000 they will level things, they'll make things clear so that 223 00:13:19,039 --> 00:13:21,919 they can build on them, so that everything is is 224 00:13:22,240 --> 00:13:25,000 you know, the old stuff is removed. You're going to 225 00:13:25,080 --> 00:13:27,480 remove the trees, you're going to remove the grass, You're 226 00:13:27,480 --> 00:13:29,080 going to remove the rocks that are in the way 227 00:13:29,200 --> 00:13:31,919 or whatever, and you're going to try to make the 228 00:13:31,960 --> 00:13:35,759 ground level to be able to now build a new 229 00:13:35,759 --> 00:13:39,360 building on it. You remove the rubble too, Like if 230 00:13:39,360 --> 00:13:42,039 there's destruction of an ancient city, it's like remove all 231 00:13:42,080 --> 00:13:45,960 the remainders of the ancient world. And so that is 232 00:13:46,000 --> 00:13:51,240 of course everything that Saint John manifest and that's why 233 00:13:51,279 --> 00:13:53,840 he looks the way that he does. You know, that's 234 00:13:53,919 --> 00:13:58,360 why he is wild, because that is the aspect of 235 00:13:58,360 --> 00:14:01,360 the wild, which is positive, which is the aspect of 236 00:14:01,440 --> 00:14:05,919 the wild. Is think about the wild just like in 237 00:14:06,000 --> 00:14:09,960 terms of if you live like where I live in Quebec. 238 00:14:10,000 --> 00:14:12,639 You know, it's like or if there are many places 239 00:14:12,679 --> 00:14:14,360 that you live, like if you don't take care of 240 00:14:14,440 --> 00:14:19,600 a building for enough time, the wild will take it over. 241 00:14:19,960 --> 00:14:25,639 It is human hierarchies need constant attention. They need to 242 00:14:25,679 --> 00:14:28,320 be held up, They need to be you know, they 243 00:14:28,360 --> 00:14:31,519 need to be kept up. But if you let them go, 244 00:14:31,759 --> 00:14:34,559 then the wild will come and take them. And you 245 00:14:34,600 --> 00:14:37,759 see these you know, these ruins that the vines grow 246 00:14:37,840 --> 00:14:42,360 through them and the rain destroys them within one generation. 247 00:14:43,120 --> 00:14:45,759 You know, the water comes in, breaks it down, you know, 248 00:14:45,879 --> 00:14:49,799 the the like I said, the plants come and will 249 00:14:50,240 --> 00:14:55,039 will participate in bringing everything down. An earthquake will come 250 00:14:55,080 --> 00:14:58,480 and just calm, you know, shatter the building. And so 251 00:14:58,559 --> 00:15:01,840 the wild is constantly, you know, coming in to attack. 252 00:15:01,879 --> 00:15:04,919 And usually we see that as negative, you know, we 253 00:15:04,960 --> 00:15:08,879 see that as in some ways consequence of the fall, 254 00:15:08,919 --> 00:15:11,440 which you know it is, but we tend to see 255 00:15:11,440 --> 00:15:14,399 it as negative as the wild beasts that are coming 256 00:15:14,799 --> 00:15:17,200 to devour you, you know, the snakes on the edge 257 00:15:17,240 --> 00:15:20,799 of the camp, all of this stuff. But this is 258 00:15:20,840 --> 00:15:26,399 the thing about symbolism is that symbolism is not is structural. 259 00:15:27,159 --> 00:15:29,720 I've said it many times. It's not a simple one 260 00:15:29,759 --> 00:15:32,519 way street. And so it's not just like this good, 261 00:15:32,600 --> 00:15:34,679 this bad. And so in this case, Saint John the 262 00:15:34,679 --> 00:15:41,639 Baptist represents everything about this wild aspect you know that 263 00:15:41,960 --> 00:15:44,679 is you know, it's like the just in the wild 264 00:15:44,840 --> 00:15:47,720 is maybe a good way of understanding Saint John, Saint 265 00:15:47,799 --> 00:15:51,200 John the Baptist, and therefore he is there to level 266 00:15:51,559 --> 00:15:57,840 the world and bring about a transformation. And you know, 267 00:15:57,919 --> 00:16:02,279 one of the one of the important aspects of Saint 268 00:16:02,399 --> 00:16:04,440 John is of course in the way that Christ talks 269 00:16:04,440 --> 00:16:06,840 about him. You know, this is of course one of 270 00:16:06,840 --> 00:16:10,159 the greatest examples of one of the things that I 271 00:16:10,200 --> 00:16:13,159 talk about in terms of symbolism and how symbolism functions 272 00:16:13,919 --> 00:16:18,159 is that this is going to be harder for some 273 00:16:18,200 --> 00:16:20,360 people to kind of get, but hopefully the example will 274 00:16:20,399 --> 00:16:21,320 help you understand. 275 00:16:21,480 --> 00:16:21,759 Speaker 2: And so. 276 00:16:23,320 --> 00:16:28,440 Speaker 1: Symbolism means that stability and meaning is held from above. 277 00:16:28,840 --> 00:16:31,840 Mostly it's not held that much from below. 278 00:16:32,639 --> 00:16:32,879 Speaker 2: You know. 279 00:16:32,960 --> 00:16:37,440 Speaker 1: The stability of something is its logos. The stability of 280 00:16:37,480 --> 00:16:40,559 something is it in its instantiations. 281 00:16:41,000 --> 00:16:41,919 Speaker 2: What do I mean by that? 282 00:16:42,000 --> 00:16:46,320 Speaker 1: It's like, you know, sorry, the cup so The stability 283 00:16:46,360 --> 00:16:49,480 of the cup is in is in the notion that 284 00:16:49,519 --> 00:16:51,960 it's a cup. That's what makes it stable, That's what 285 00:16:52,120 --> 00:16:55,600 holds it together. But you know, and that's why I 286 00:16:55,639 --> 00:17:00,320 can recognize different instantiations of cups is because what mayi's 287 00:17:00,320 --> 00:17:02,159 stable isn't the fact that it's made of wood or 288 00:17:02,200 --> 00:17:04,200 the fact that has this or that shape or this 289 00:17:04,319 --> 00:17:07,880 or that size, But it's its purpose and its name 290 00:17:08,079 --> 00:17:10,920 and its identity, and that's what kind of holds it 291 00:17:10,720 --> 00:17:11,799 in stability. 292 00:17:12,279 --> 00:17:12,599 Speaker 2: And so. 293 00:17:14,079 --> 00:17:16,799 Speaker 1: You know, if I say something like the man had 294 00:17:16,799 --> 00:17:20,960 a cup in his hands, you'll say, Okay, yeah, I 295 00:17:21,000 --> 00:17:22,559 didn't tell you what kind of cup it was. 296 00:17:22,599 --> 00:17:24,359 Speaker 2: I didn't tell you what color was. I didn't tell 297 00:17:24,359 --> 00:17:25,960 you what size it was. I didn't tell you what 298 00:17:26,000 --> 00:17:26,680 it was made of. 299 00:17:27,519 --> 00:17:30,759 Speaker 1: But you'll say, yeah, but that's an event in the world, 300 00:17:30,960 --> 00:17:32,960 even though I didn't give you any of the details 301 00:17:33,200 --> 00:17:36,440 of how that event was instantiated. And I can say, 302 00:17:36,519 --> 00:17:38,480 you know, what's something that's true that man was holding 303 00:17:38,519 --> 00:17:39,920 a cup in his hands, and he'd be like, oh, yeah, 304 00:17:40,039 --> 00:17:42,440 I believe that's true. But you don't know anything about 305 00:17:42,440 --> 00:17:45,200 the cup. You know anything about its weight or whatever, 306 00:17:45,440 --> 00:17:49,039 or its instantiations its stability is held in its meaning, 307 00:17:49,359 --> 00:17:55,240 and that is how symbolism functions. So when there is 308 00:17:55,279 --> 00:17:59,440 this prophecy in the Old Testament that Elijah will come 309 00:17:59,599 --> 00:18:07,119 before the Messiah. And so when the disciples ask Christ, 310 00:18:07,839 --> 00:18:16,119 Christ said, John the Baptist is the Elijah that comes 311 00:18:16,160 --> 00:18:21,200 before the Messiah. Because in the prophecy it says that 312 00:18:21,240 --> 00:18:25,359 Elijah will come before the Messiah. Now, this is the 313 00:18:25,400 --> 00:18:29,200 thing about symbolism. This is going to be this is 314 00:18:29,240 --> 00:18:31,759 the pill that you kind of have to swallow, which is, 315 00:18:34,200 --> 00:18:38,319 if I ask you the question, did Elijah come before 316 00:18:38,319 --> 00:18:44,759 the Messiah? What's the answer? The answer is yes, Elijah 317 00:18:44,839 --> 00:18:49,839 came before the Messiah. What's the instantiation of that, John 318 00:18:49,880 --> 00:18:54,200 the Baptist, John the Baptist is the Elijah that came 319 00:18:54,240 --> 00:18:58,279 before the Messiah. I want you to think about the 320 00:18:58,279 --> 00:19:00,640 implications of that. I want you to think about what 321 00:19:00,720 --> 00:19:06,640 that means. Now, if I say, is Elijah coming before 322 00:19:06,680 --> 00:19:10,599 the Messiah an event that happened in the world, what's 323 00:19:10,640 --> 00:19:11,200 your answer? 324 00:19:12,039 --> 00:19:17,559 Speaker 2: The answer is yes, And that answer is. 325 00:19:17,799 --> 00:19:20,680 Speaker 1: Far closer to what the Bible is saying than if 326 00:19:20,720 --> 00:19:24,599 I say, yeah, but not Elijah didn't. 327 00:19:24,359 --> 00:19:26,359 Speaker 2: Really come before the Messiah. 328 00:19:26,759 --> 00:19:30,279 Speaker 1: Like it's not really like Jesus was like using a metaphor. 329 00:19:30,440 --> 00:19:32,519 Speaker 2: He was metaphorically saying. 330 00:19:32,559 --> 00:19:35,079 Speaker 1: So Jesus showed us was that when in the Old 331 00:19:35,079 --> 00:19:38,519 Testament it said that Elijah would come before the Messiah, 332 00:19:38,599 --> 00:19:41,000 like it was a metaphor. You know, it's like everything 333 00:19:41,000 --> 00:19:43,160 else in the Bible's on a metaphor, but that was 334 00:19:43,319 --> 00:19:46,119 particularly a metaphor. And you know, and so when Jesus 335 00:19:46,240 --> 00:19:48,440 kind of revealed that it was a metaphor, then in fact, 336 00:19:48,480 --> 00:19:51,599 Elijah wasn't going to come before the Messiah, but St. 337 00:19:51,640 --> 00:19:54,440 John the Baptist would come as a kind of Elijah, right, 338 00:19:55,000 --> 00:19:58,400 you know, as a kind of metaphorical Elijah. And it's like, no, 339 00:19:58,960 --> 00:20:02,680 that is that absolutely the wrong way. If you go 340 00:20:02,799 --> 00:20:07,319 down that path trying to understand scripture, it's going to 341 00:20:07,400 --> 00:20:10,920 come back and bite you a million times, you know. 342 00:20:11,480 --> 00:20:14,720 And that is why the symbolic, the symbolic approach is 343 00:20:14,799 --> 00:20:20,440 so powerful, because I do believe that Elijah came before 344 00:20:20,559 --> 00:20:22,119 If you asked me, do you believe Elijah came before 345 00:20:22,119 --> 00:20:24,640 the Messiah? The answer is yes, I really do believe that. 346 00:20:24,640 --> 00:20:28,240 That is my first stand, my first sense that Elijah 347 00:20:28,279 --> 00:20:31,480 came before the Messiah. And then I say you know, 348 00:20:31,519 --> 00:20:34,440 and I say ah, in Saint John the Baptist was Elijah. 349 00:20:34,880 --> 00:20:38,319 But my first, my first place to stand is that 350 00:20:38,920 --> 00:20:42,039 is that the prophecy came true, Elijah came before the Messiah, 351 00:20:42,559 --> 00:20:44,920 and that way of talking and that way of thinking 352 00:20:45,599 --> 00:20:49,799 should inform so much of how you interpret scripture and 353 00:20:49,920 --> 00:20:53,079 understanding that the reason why we care about it is 354 00:20:53,119 --> 00:20:57,599 in its meaning and its structural coherence, and in how 355 00:20:57,880 --> 00:21:01,480 meaning is used in a very different way then what 356 00:21:02,119 --> 00:21:06,960 the kind of modern materialist reductionists would want it to be. 357 00:21:07,559 --> 00:21:10,039 And the truth is that it is much closer to 358 00:21:10,119 --> 00:21:13,400 reality in the very same way that if I ask 359 00:21:13,519 --> 00:21:18,319 you again, if I tell you that that man was 360 00:21:18,359 --> 00:21:21,440 holding a cup in his hands, I didn't. I'm not 361 00:21:21,680 --> 00:21:26,240 in any way giving you the details of that instantiation, 362 00:21:26,839 --> 00:21:28,519 and you don't need them in order to know that 363 00:21:28,519 --> 00:21:31,160 they're true. I could, I could give you the details 364 00:21:31,160 --> 00:21:34,519 of that instantiation, and if I do, you know, then whatever, 365 00:21:34,680 --> 00:21:36,960 maybe if there's a reason why would be helpful to 366 00:21:37,039 --> 00:21:39,240 do that, if I want to differentiate it from something, 367 00:21:39,440 --> 00:21:40,799 or if I want to help you kind of see 368 00:21:40,799 --> 00:21:43,960 something in particular, you know, but it's not necessary. 369 00:21:45,000 --> 00:21:46,920 Speaker 2: The last part, you know, It's like. 370 00:21:48,200 --> 00:21:50,880 Speaker 1: If I if I see that there are these characters 371 00:21:51,079 --> 00:21:54,920 before the end of the world that are taken up, right, 372 00:21:55,000 --> 00:22:01,200 and so you have an image of Enoch that is 373 00:22:01,240 --> 00:22:03,440 taken up, you know, that is walks with the Lord 374 00:22:03,480 --> 00:22:05,559 and disappears in this image that he's taken up. 375 00:22:05,799 --> 00:22:07,799 Speaker 2: This is more in the tradition because they're basic. 376 00:22:07,920 --> 00:22:12,039 Speaker 1: Then again on Elijah, that Elijah is taken up, you know. 377 00:22:14,359 --> 00:22:18,920 And then the question about Saint John the Baptist, was 378 00:22:18,960 --> 00:22:22,119 Saint John the Baptist, like Elijah and Enoch, taken up 379 00:22:22,880 --> 00:22:26,279 before the end of the world, before the you know, 380 00:22:26,359 --> 00:22:31,480 before the transition, And the answer is yes, he was, 381 00:22:32,559 --> 00:22:36,160 you know, because his head was taken His head was 382 00:22:36,200 --> 00:22:39,880 taken And this is this is going to be weird 383 00:22:39,920 --> 00:22:42,000 for a lot of people, you know, because you're going 384 00:22:42,079 --> 00:22:43,599 to say, well, that's not the same. You know, his 385 00:22:43,720 --> 00:22:46,839 head getting cut off is not the same as being 386 00:22:46,880 --> 00:22:50,759 taken up. But you know, if you knew the scripture, 387 00:22:50,880 --> 00:22:54,279 you would know that it is actually the same. And 388 00:22:54,319 --> 00:22:56,359 one of the things that Jesus is doing in the 389 00:22:56,400 --> 00:23:01,680 story is he is collapsing the positive and negative symbolism. 390 00:23:01,720 --> 00:23:02,599 Speaker 2: He you know, you know, the. 391 00:23:02,599 --> 00:23:05,279 Speaker 1: Fact that Christ's on the cross is both being raised 392 00:23:05,359 --> 00:23:10,160 up and then also being being killed and crucified and humiliated. 393 00:23:10,200 --> 00:23:12,680 All of this is already there in the symbols of 394 00:23:12,680 --> 00:23:16,440 Saint John the Baptist, and what it's referencing. The fact 395 00:23:16,440 --> 00:23:19,480 that Saint John is taken up by his head being 396 00:23:19,519 --> 00:23:25,000 cut off, is referencing the story in in Genesis, the 397 00:23:25,039 --> 00:23:29,720 story of Joseph. So in the story of Joseph, Joseph 398 00:23:29,759 --> 00:23:33,519 goes into prison. So these two characters in the prison 399 00:23:33,599 --> 00:23:38,799 with Joseph have have dreams. And the cup holder has 400 00:23:38,880 --> 00:23:42,519 the dream that he sees vines in front of them. 401 00:23:42,559 --> 00:23:45,680 I think it's like three vines that represent the three days. 402 00:23:46,160 --> 00:23:50,640 And he has the pharaoh's cup and he presses the 403 00:23:50,799 --> 00:23:56,680 wine into the into the cup and he gives it 404 00:23:56,720 --> 00:23:58,680 to the pharaoh. Right, that's the dream of the of 405 00:23:58,720 --> 00:24:02,640 the cup holder. And then and the the dream of 406 00:24:02,680 --> 00:24:06,119 the baker is that he has this I think basket 407 00:24:06,160 --> 00:24:07,240 of bread on the top of his head. 408 00:24:07,240 --> 00:24:08,480 Speaker 2: He has head on top of. 409 00:24:08,759 --> 00:24:12,720 Speaker 1: His head, and then the uh, the birds come and 410 00:24:12,759 --> 00:24:16,759 they pick the bread out of the basket. Now, there's 411 00:24:16,759 --> 00:24:18,599 a lot to say about that symbolism. Maybe one day 412 00:24:18,599 --> 00:24:20,400 I'll make a video about the entire thing about the 413 00:24:20,440 --> 00:24:22,839 relationship between of course the bread and the wine. All 414 00:24:22,880 --> 00:24:25,759 of this is very related, is relatable. But then they 415 00:24:25,799 --> 00:24:29,480 ask Joseph what does the dream mean, And so Joseph 416 00:24:29,519 --> 00:24:33,480 tells the cup holder that in three days, the pharaoh 417 00:24:33,480 --> 00:24:36,880 will lift you up, you know, lift you up back 418 00:24:37,000 --> 00:24:41,240 into your position at his side to offer him the cup. 419 00:24:42,240 --> 00:24:45,519 And then he says to the one with the to 420 00:24:45,599 --> 00:24:49,599 the baker, like he says, in three days, the pharaoh 421 00:24:49,599 --> 00:24:52,920 will lift you up, you know, but lift you up 422 00:24:52,960 --> 00:24:55,000 in the sense of cut your head off and lift 423 00:24:55,039 --> 00:24:58,160 your lift that's why the birds were taking the bread 424 00:24:58,200 --> 00:25:00,680 from his head or going to lift you up and 425 00:25:00,720 --> 00:25:01,200 take you away. 426 00:25:01,240 --> 00:25:03,119 Speaker 2: So here it's like it's very powerful. 427 00:25:02,799 --> 00:25:04,960 Speaker 1: Because you can really see the symbolism of the negative 428 00:25:05,000 --> 00:25:08,839 aspect of tyranny and of order, where the birds from heaven, 429 00:25:08,960 --> 00:25:11,759 like the angels from heaven, come down and take the 430 00:25:11,799 --> 00:25:15,079 bread and bring it up, and that's his head getting 431 00:25:15,160 --> 00:25:17,720 cut off and being lifted up. But the text uses 432 00:25:17,839 --> 00:25:20,799 the terms very similarly, like both it's the pharaoh that 433 00:25:20,880 --> 00:25:23,599 is going to lift you up, and one is into 434 00:25:23,680 --> 00:25:26,960 your death and the other is into the service. And 435 00:25:27,000 --> 00:25:30,039 then in the story of Saint John, the Baptist. Those 436 00:25:30,039 --> 00:25:33,359 two are the same. They brought together in some ways 437 00:25:33,359 --> 00:25:36,559 it becomes an image of future martyrdom, where you know, 438 00:25:36,680 --> 00:25:40,960 the death and glorification of someone are the same, and 439 00:25:41,079 --> 00:25:44,319 that Saint John's head getting taken up by the King 440 00:25:45,880 --> 00:25:49,640 ends up also him being taken up before the fall 441 00:25:49,720 --> 00:25:51,200 and before the destruction of. 442 00:25:51,359 --> 00:25:54,559 Speaker 2: Jerusalem and the founding of the New world. 443 00:25:54,640 --> 00:25:56,759 Speaker 1: And so there are other examples of that, of course, 444 00:25:56,839 --> 00:26:00,519 because Christ going up into Heaven is the ultimate final 445 00:26:00,599 --> 00:26:03,599 version of that. But there's already an intimation of this 446 00:26:03,720 --> 00:26:08,440 kind of symbolism in Saint John the Baptist had been 447 00:26:08,480 --> 00:26:10,960 taken up. And so that's the last little bit of 448 00:26:11,359 --> 00:26:14,359 maybe a little more esoteric symbolism that wanted to point 449 00:26:14,400 --> 00:26:17,599 to you, But mostly I wanted you to understand that 450 00:26:17,680 --> 00:26:20,319 the role of Saint John is very important in the 451 00:26:20,400 --> 00:26:23,920 idea that one of the aspects of the incarnation is 452 00:26:23,960 --> 00:26:26,720 a transition feed an old world and a new world. 453 00:26:27,079 --> 00:26:28,319 Speaker 2: So you need this kind. 454 00:26:28,200 --> 00:26:33,920 Speaker 1: Of character to hand off and to destroy and to criticize, 455 00:26:33,920 --> 00:26:36,839 because if you remember, Saint John criticizes the King. That's 456 00:26:36,839 --> 00:26:39,799 what gets them killed. To criticize the old world, to 457 00:26:40,079 --> 00:26:44,079 level it, to destroy it before a new world. 458 00:26:43,880 --> 00:26:48,599 Speaker 2: Can be founded and so and so, you know, so 459 00:26:48,759 --> 00:26:50,160 don't can I say this? 460 00:26:51,559 --> 00:26:53,839 Speaker 1: I think that we have to be careful as people 461 00:26:53,920 --> 00:26:57,559 not to get caught up in criticizing the world in 462 00:26:57,559 --> 00:27:01,160 which we live. You know, we have to ultimately focus 463 00:27:01,200 --> 00:27:04,519 on God, but it is part of reality. We do 464 00:27:04,599 --> 00:27:07,359 need to break down the idols and to break down 465 00:27:07,400 --> 00:27:10,880 the things that are falsely built up. And so sometimes 466 00:27:10,880 --> 00:27:14,559 and some people definitely have that role more than others. 467 00:27:14,680 --> 00:27:18,160 And so even though for some people they can be 468 00:27:18,200 --> 00:27:21,200 annoying to hear only criticism, and we have to be 469 00:27:21,200 --> 00:27:23,680 careful not to feed ourselves only with that kind of stuff. 470 00:27:24,240 --> 00:27:28,200 You know, this is an important role in the restoration. 471 00:27:28,400 --> 00:27:31,240 So thanks everybody for your time, Thank you for your support. 472 00:27:31,799 --> 00:27:35,079 Don't forget to get Jack and the Fallen Giants. It 473 00:27:35,279 --> 00:27:38,799 is available on our store. There are a lot of 474 00:27:38,839 --> 00:27:41,319 great stuff coming next year and I'm looking forward to it. 475 00:27:41,359 --> 00:27:43,279 So thanks everybody for your time. Talk to you very soon, 476 00:27:43,279 --> 00:27:47,720 Bye bye. If you enjoy these videos and podcasts, please 477 00:27:47,759 --> 00:27:50,400 go to the Symbolic world dot com website and see 478 00:27:50,440 --> 00:27:51,960 how you can support what we're doing. 479 00:27:52,240 --> 00:27:54,519 Speaker 2: There are multiple subscriber tiers with perks. 480 00:27:54,759 --> 00:27:57,240 Speaker 1: There are apparel in books to purchase, So go to 481 00:27:57,240 --> 00:28:00,240 the Symbolic World dot com and thank you for your support.