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<v Speaker 1>Welcome back to the Path Went Chile for part two

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<v Speaker 1>of our series about the murder of Karina Holmer. Robin,

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<v Speaker 1>do you want to catch everyone up of what we

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<v Speaker 1>talked about in our previous episode?

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<v Speaker 2>Well, this particular crime took place in Boston in June

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<v Speaker 2>of nineteen ninety six. Karina Holmer was a twenty year

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<v Speaker 2>old from Sweden who decided that she wanted to live

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<v Speaker 2>in the United States for a while, working as an

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<v Speaker 2>o pair for a family living in the Boston suburb

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<v Speaker 2>of Dover who had two children. Their names were Frank

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<v Speaker 2>Rapp and Susan Nickter. She would live in a loft

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<v Speaker 2>on the weekend with the family during the week and

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<v Speaker 2>one Friday night, she decided to go out to a

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<v Speaker 2>club with some friends called the Zanzibar, but then she

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<v Speaker 2>just seemed to disappear. None of her friends actually saw

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<v Speaker 2>her leave, and about thirty six hours later they would

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<v Speaker 2>find the top half of her torso inside a trash

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<v Speaker 2>bag and a dumpster located a couple miles away, and

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<v Speaker 2>it turned out that she even sliced half right at

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<v Speaker 2>the wrist that whoever did it went right through their spine,

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<v Speaker 2>but the lower half of her body was never found,

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<v Speaker 2>and it turned out that her exact cause of death

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<v Speaker 2>was strangulation. Frustratingly, we had so many different conflicting eyewitness

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<v Speaker 2>accounts from the nightclub that no one could figure out

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<v Speaker 2>the circumstances of how and when Karina left. It did

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<v Speaker 2>sound like that she was heavily intoxicated, and the boyfriend

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<v Speaker 2>of one of her friends she went with said that

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<v Speaker 2>they saw her leaving in a Mitsubishi with two very

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<v Speaker 2>aggressive guys who told him to back off, but no

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<v Speaker 2>other witnesses could corroborate a story. There are other witnesses

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<v Speaker 2>who saw with a panhandler on the alley named Juan Polo,

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<v Speaker 2>who did have a history of being accused of being

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<v Speaker 2>involved in a gang rape and whose ex girlfriend was

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<v Speaker 2>murdered under strange circumstances, but they weren't able to find

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<v Speaker 2>any evidence against him. She had also been seen talking

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<v Speaker 2>with a man named Herb Witten, who would shoe up

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<v Speaker 2>outside these clubs with his large job, both stressed up

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<v Speaker 2>in Superman costumes, but they couldn't find any evidence against

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<v Speaker 2>him either, and a couple months after that he died

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<v Speaker 2>after slitting his own throat. Because he had a history

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<v Speaker 2>of depression, and mental health issues, and it's been suspected

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<v Speaker 2>that being a potential suspect in a murder might have

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<v Speaker 2>been his breaking point. They looked at a couple other suspects,

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<v Speaker 2>a death metal singer named John's Whiz, though there really

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<v Speaker 2>wasn't anything to connect him at all. All they found

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<v Speaker 2>were some human bones inside his residence, but and he

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<v Speaker 2>lived near the dumpster where Karina was found, but otherwise

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<v Speaker 2>there was nothing else on him. A couple months after

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<v Speaker 2>Karina was murdered, there was a real estate broker named

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<v Speaker 2>Gregory Hummel who picked up a woman from the same

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<v Speaker 2>sands of our nightclub, took her back to his apartment

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<v Speaker 2>and attempted to sexually assault her before she contacted the police.

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<v Speaker 2>But otherwise they found no evidence against him either, and

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<v Speaker 2>the case has pretty much been unsolved for nearly thirty years.

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<v Speaker 2>They've even looked at her family, Frank Rapp and Susan Nicker,

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<v Speaker 2>but there's no evidence against them either. So we've had

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<v Speaker 2>all these potential suspects but no evidence against any of them,

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<v Speaker 2>and the case continues to remain unsolved all these years later.

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<v Speaker 1>Well about four and a half years ago. On episode

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<v Speaker 1>two twelve of the Trail went Cold. Robin covered another

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<v Speaker 1>cold case involving young female Swedish victims, and that was

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<v Speaker 1>the unsolved murders of Marie Lillienberg and Maria Vilen, who

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<v Speaker 1>were both killed while hitchhiking together through California in July

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<v Speaker 1>of nineteen eighty three. Like Karina, the two women left

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<v Speaker 1>their native Sweden in order to spend some time living

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<v Speaker 1>and working in the United States, but wound up being

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<v Speaker 1>murdered before they can return home. I see no reason

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<v Speaker 1>to believe that there are any connection between the two cases,

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<v Speaker 1>but these stories are truly nightmarish situations for the victims' families.

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<v Speaker 1>How can you keep up with the investigation and spread

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<v Speaker 1>awareness about the case when you live on an entirely

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<v Speaker 1>different continent located thousands of miles away. Karina hailed from

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<v Speaker 1>a small village with a population of less than one hundred,

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<v Speaker 1>and I'm not sure if her family has ever traveled

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<v Speaker 1>to the United States to meet with the investigators on

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<v Speaker 1>her case. They're pretty much in a position where they

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<v Speaker 1>can do nothing but wait, and they haven't received any

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<v Speaker 1>answers in nearly thirty years. I'm sure the situation is

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<v Speaker 1>particularly haunting because Karina had been planning to return to

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<v Speaker 1>Sweden earlier than usual because she was unhappy with her situation,

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<v Speaker 1>and sent that cryptic letter to one of her best

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<v Speaker 1>friends which she stated that quote, something terrible had happened,

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<v Speaker 1>but she would not provide any further details until she

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<v Speaker 1>arrived home. So of course you have to wonder if

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<v Speaker 1>this terrible thing she was referring to had any relation

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<v Speaker 1>to her murder. This is a case where a number

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<v Speaker 1>of individuals had been looked at as possible suspects, but

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<v Speaker 1>there's no real evidence pointing towards any of them, So,

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<v Speaker 1>for all we know, perhaps Koreenan was murdered by someone

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<v Speaker 1>who has yet to pop up on the radar. It

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<v Speaker 1>seems like there are an awful lot of weird coincidences

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<v Speaker 1>in this story which have led the investigation in unexpected directions.

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<v Speaker 1>For instance, you might be familiar with the story of

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<v Speaker 1>Rafi Kodikian and David Coughlin, two friends from Boston who

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<v Speaker 1>went on a hike in New Mexico's Carlsbad Caverns National

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<v Speaker 1>Park in August of nineteen ninety nine. They wound up

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<v Speaker 1>getting lost, and by the time they were found Kodikian

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<v Speaker 1>had stabbed Coughlin to death in what he described as

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<v Speaker 1>a mercy killing, since his friend was badly dehydrated and

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<v Speaker 1>suffering so much. Nevertheless, Kodikian was still charged with second

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<v Speaker 1>degree murder and served sixteen months in prison. Well, believe

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<v Speaker 1>it or not, the reason this story got linked to

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<v Speaker 1>Karina's case is because Rafi Kodikian just happened to live

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<v Speaker 1>in the same apartment building next to the dumpster where

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<v Speaker 1>Karina's body was found. He was even briefly questioned by

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<v Speaker 1>police at the time, who were performing routine canvassing of

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<v Speaker 1>the building's residents. Of course, when Kudaiki Ain't got charged

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<v Speaker 1>with another murder three years later, investigators checked into any

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<v Speaker 1>possible link with Karina's case, but the whole thing turned

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<v Speaker 1>out to be nothing more than a coincidence.

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<v Speaker 3>So interesting, I'd love to know more about that case

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<v Speaker 3>where he still got charged with second degree murder. I

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<v Speaker 3>wonder if you know, I don't know. I guess that

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<v Speaker 3>you said he should have been helping more with his friend,

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<v Speaker 3>who's I'm assuming dying in while they're not being found.

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<v Speaker 3>But regardless, it's so bizarre that he's actually near her

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<v Speaker 3>apartment right, he lives in that same apartment complex. Yet

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<v Speaker 3>I highly doubt there's any kind of crossover there. There

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<v Speaker 3>are two very different scenarios. The reality is is you

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<v Speaker 3>have a tragedy that happens to live near a tragedy,

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<v Speaker 3>and so I think that's the only thing that really

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<v Speaker 3>seems to tie those two together.

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<v Speaker 2>So before we talk about possible suspects, we have to

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<v Speaker 2>look at the circumstances of how Karina went missing before

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<v Speaker 2>she was killed. We know that she was parting with

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<v Speaker 2>friends at the Zansobar nightclub and apparently became quite intoxicated

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<v Speaker 2>before she got separated from them, and her body was

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<v Speaker 2>subsequently found in a dumpster thirty six hours later. Since

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<v Speaker 2>the medical examiner believed that Karina was alive for at

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<v Speaker 2>least twenty four hours after she was last seen, this

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<v Speaker 2>might indicate that she was held in captivity for a

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<v Speaker 2>prolonged period of time, possibly even tortured before she was killed.

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<v Speaker 2>But if so, who was responsible and how did Karna

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<v Speaker 2>cross paths with the perpetrator? Well? One of the most

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<v Speaker 2>frustrating elements of this investigation is that we have a

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<v Speaker 2>number of conflicting stories about how Karina left the nightclub.

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<v Speaker 2>Some of them placed her walking away from the club

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<v Speaker 2>down the street, but the version that is quite different

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<v Speaker 2>from the others involves Karina climbing into a gray Mitsubishi

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<v Speaker 2>with two unidentified men who yelled profanities at the boyfriend

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<v Speaker 2>of one of Karina's friends. If this account is accurate,

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<v Speaker 2>then this suggests that multiple people were involved in the murder,

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<v Speaker 2>but I find it odd that there don't seem to

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<v Speaker 2>be any other witness who could corroborate this guy's story.

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<v Speaker 2>That's not to say that I completely discouted, as Karina

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<v Speaker 2>had apparently told one of her friends that she was

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<v Speaker 2>planning to go to an after hours party with an

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<v Speaker 2>older man, so for all we know, one of the

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<v Speaker 2>two individuals inside the car might have been him. Given

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<v Speaker 2>Karina as a depriated state, I can definitely see a

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<v Speaker 2>situation where a group of men drove her somewhere to

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<v Speaker 2>take advantage of her. But how do things escalate to

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<v Speaker 2>the point where these predators sliced her entire body in half.

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<v Speaker 2>I'm not sure if investigators placed much credence into the

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<v Speaker 2>witness's story because even though he supposedly came face to

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<v Speaker 2>face with two men who may have been complicit in

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<v Speaker 2>Karina's murder. The authorities had never released detailed descriptions or

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<v Speaker 2>composite sketches for these guys. But further complicates this situation

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<v Speaker 2>is that there were reported sightings of Karina at a

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<v Speaker 2>twenty four hour convenience store in the Back Bay neighborhood

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<v Speaker 2>between three thirty and four thirty am, which would have

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<v Speaker 2>been about an hour or two after she left the club. Yes,

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<v Speaker 2>eyewitness is a missing person's cases are often mistaken. But

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<v Speaker 2>since the store was located only a block from the

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<v Speaker 2>dumpster where Karina was found, I guess you can't discout

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<v Speaker 2>the idea that Karina walked to this neighborhood on her own.

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<v Speaker 2>But the issue is that the lot where Karina was

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<v Speaker 2>staying was located in the Fort Point neighborhood in the

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<v Speaker 2>complete opposite direction. So why would Karreina be frequenting a

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<v Speaker 2>store in this particular area.

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<v Speaker 3>And I'm assuming we had no cameras right at that

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<v Speaker 3>convenience store.

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<v Speaker 2>No, we didn't know, Okay.

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<v Speaker 3>So that's difficult because we've all we've all know about

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<v Speaker 3>eyewitness identification and people thinking they saw someone, especially after

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<v Speaker 3>they become a.

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<v Speaker 4>News newsworthy individual.

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<v Speaker 3>But let's go back to these two guys that are

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<v Speaker 3>in the car. One this friend is describing these two

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<v Speaker 3>guys getting into a Minsubishi with her being aggressive with him.

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<v Speaker 3>Is it possible there's no composite release because he's honest

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<v Speaker 3>and he's like, look, I was so drunk. I don't

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<v Speaker 3>know what these guys look like. I was frustrated that

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<v Speaker 3>they were being jerks. I stumbled back into the bar.

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<v Speaker 3>But I'm very confident that there was two men in

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<v Speaker 3>a Mitsubishi, and that's about all I can remember. That's

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<v Speaker 3>a possible reason why you don't see composites. Also, it's

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<v Speaker 3>possible that these two guys really did take her back

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<v Speaker 3>and even together took advantage of her. But one left,

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<v Speaker 3>and if she was kept alive for another, you know,

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<v Speaker 3>several hours or a whole nother day, it's possible she

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<v Speaker 3>was only with one of those individuals in maybe the

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<v Speaker 3>apartment or home where she was taken. Let's say the

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<v Speaker 3>other person had to return home, had to go to work,

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<v Speaker 3>had to go back to their family. The actual killer

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<v Speaker 3>might have done it solo and simply taken advantage of

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<v Speaker 3>an intoxicated woman with his buddy. And then it turned

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<v Speaker 3>sinister after the friend left.

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<v Speaker 2>That is possible. I mean, I would like to think

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<v Speaker 2>that the friend would come forward if he suspected, if

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<v Speaker 2>he found out that this woman was killed after he

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<v Speaker 2>was seen with a man he knew. But if it's

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<v Speaker 2>a case where he did something wrong, like took advantage

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<v Speaker 2>of Krena, then he would have his own reasons for

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<v Speaker 2>not wanting to come forward. And that's why I do

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<v Speaker 2>still think, like I said, that the scene of her

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<v Speaker 2>leading with these two guys and things going horribly wrong

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<v Speaker 2>does make sense. But it's just so frustrating to me

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<v Speaker 2>that there is just no one else who can say that, yeah,

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<v Speaker 2>I saw this Mitsubishi, and I saw these two guys

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<v Speaker 2>with Karina.

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<v Speaker 1>So let's start going through our gallery of potential suspects.

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<v Speaker 1>It's been reported that Karina was dating a Boston police

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<v Speaker 1>officer at the time of her murder, but this person's

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<v Speaker 1>name has never been released publicly and we know nothing

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<v Speaker 1>about his background. All we know is that he had

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<v Speaker 1>an alibi and was never considered to be a suspect.

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<v Speaker 1>But of course, online discussions about this case have pushed

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<v Speaker 1>forward conspiracy theories about the reason the murder is still

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<v Speaker 1>unsolved is because a police cover up took place in

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<v Speaker 1>order to protect this man. Well, even though there was

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<v Speaker 1>definitely serious issues with corruption in the Boston Police Department

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<v Speaker 1>during the nineteen nineties, there is no evidence at all

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<v Speaker 1>to support the cover up theory, and I'd like to

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<v Speaker 1>think that most cops would draw the line at protecting

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<v Speaker 1>a fellow officer who dismembered his girlfriend by literally slicing

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<v Speaker 1>her body in half. With the limited information that we

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<v Speaker 1>have about this policeman, I really have no reason to

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<v Speaker 1>believe that he's the killer. And I feel the same

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<v Speaker 1>way about John z a Whiz, who's link to this

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<v Speaker 1>case is tenuous, to say the least. I'm not familiar

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<v Speaker 1>with Zowiz's work, but he is a prominent enough figure

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<v Speaker 1>on the industrial music scene that he has his own

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<v Speaker 1>Wikipedia page. The only reason he even appeared on the

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<v Speaker 1>radar is because he lived a few blocks away from

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<v Speaker 1>the location where Karina's body was found, and he had

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<v Speaker 1>enough weird memorabilia in his apartment and bizarre aspects of

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<v Speaker 1>his musical act that some people thought that he might

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<v Speaker 1>be capable of murder. But Zuwiz almost sounds like he

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<v Speaker 1>was a victim of Satanic panic to me. He claimed

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<v Speaker 1>that when police started interviewing him about the murders, they

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<v Speaker 1>asked him questions like do you worship the devil? Of course,

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<v Speaker 1>nothing was found to implicate Zowiz in the crime, but

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<v Speaker 1>even though his band's Sleep Chamber was reasonably popular at

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<v Speaker 1>the time, it sounds like the combination of Zuiz's heroin

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<v Speaker 1>addiction in him being looked at as a potential suspect

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<v Speaker 1>and a murder caused a major downward spiral for the band,

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<v Speaker 1>and they wound up going on hiatus for several years.

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<v Speaker 1>Zuiz was able to overcome his addiction issues and is

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<v Speaker 1>still alive today, and you can actually find an interview

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<v Speaker 1>with him on YouTube from two thousand and nine where

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<v Speaker 1>he talks about his connection to this crime. Oddly enough,

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<v Speaker 1>Zuiz states during the interview that Karina's boss was the

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<v Speaker 1>one who actually murdered her. But this is not accurate

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<v Speaker 1>at all, since no one has ever been charged with

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<v Speaker 1>the crime and there's no more evidence against Frank Rap

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<v Speaker 1>than any of the other potential suspects.

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<v Speaker 3>Was he still an addict when he made that recording,

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<v Speaker 3>because it's not like he said, you know, in my

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<v Speaker 3>personal opinion, this is why I think I was suspected,

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<v Speaker 3>and then this is who I believe would have had

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<v Speaker 3>a bigger reason to do it or you know, but

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<v Speaker 3>it sounds like he was almost off the cuff, like

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<v Speaker 3>I know exactly who did it. It's Frank rap and

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<v Speaker 3>almost that he's, you know, someone with a mental health

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<v Speaker 3>issue or a substance abuse issue at the time, and

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<v Speaker 3>then now is sober.

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<v Speaker 2>I think he was clean by two thousand and nine

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<v Speaker 2>when he did that interview. I remember seeing it, so

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<v Speaker 2>he was going through a lot of disorders back in

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<v Speaker 2>the nineties, but I think he was fine by the

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<v Speaker 2>time he did the interview. And it sounds like he

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<v Speaker 2>never specifically said Frank Rapp's name. He just says, oh, yeah,

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<v Speaker 2>I was implicated in a murderer, but it turned out

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<v Speaker 2>the woman's boss was the one who killed her. So

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<v Speaker 2>I'm guessing maybe he's just misremembering or something he or

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<v Speaker 2>got it crossed up with another case. But obviously we

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<v Speaker 2>don't know who actually murdered her.

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<v Speaker 1>It's a pretty bold thing to say, like that could

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<v Speaker 1>be considered libelous because it's pretty easy to look up

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<v Speaker 1>who her boss was at that time.

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<v Speaker 3>Yeah, exactly, Yeah, and or like Robin said, yeah, and

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<v Speaker 3>or like Robin said, it could also be the way

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<v Speaker 3>he said it. I mean, if reading it's hard, you know,

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<v Speaker 3>but if he did it more like Robin said, like, oh, yeah,

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<v Speaker 3>you know I was suspected this is the guy who

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00:14:50.240 --> 00:14:53.480
<v Speaker 3>actually got arrested for doing it. Maybe he really thought that, yeah,

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<v Speaker 3>in his memory he remembered someone being charged with the crime.

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<v Speaker 3>But when you go back to to the boyfriend, I

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<v Speaker 3>can't imagine. And yes there's corruption, Yes, maybe someone's assaulted

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<v Speaker 3>and you hide it. Yes, maybe you know you have

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<v Speaker 3>some really corrupt officers who would hide a murder. But

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<v Speaker 3>by the time your partner in crime, who's supposed to

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<v Speaker 3>be having your back, right, your police officer partner is

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<v Speaker 3>cutting women in half and brutally, you know, committing a

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<v Speaker 3>crime of this nature, doesn't it make you scared to

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<v Speaker 3>serve next to him, Like if he can do that

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<v Speaker 3>to her, what could he do to us?

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<v Speaker 4>Because this is a whole nother level.

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<v Speaker 3>So I'm with you guys, where I think there would

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<v Speaker 3>have been a line drawn there. I don't know that

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<v Speaker 3>I would have covered up for something this horrific, even

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<v Speaker 3>if I was part of a dysfunctional department. And so

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<v Speaker 3>I think the boyfriend's got to be let off the hook,

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<v Speaker 3>And I agree there's more of that satanic panic with

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<v Speaker 3>Zo Whiz.

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<v Speaker 4>I don't believe that he.

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<v Speaker 3>Had anything to do with it, just a suspicious person

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00:15:51.000 --> 00:15:54.200
<v Speaker 3>because he was quote different and dark and disturbed at

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<v Speaker 3>the time. He was sick and so once he's sober,

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<v Speaker 3>I think maybe he's misremembering it.

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<v Speaker 4>It sounds like the way and said it, he.

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<v Speaker 3>Almost thought he remembered the case being cleared with the

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<v Speaker 3>boss at the helm of it.

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<v Speaker 2>That's what I'm thinking as well. Though I've always wondered

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<v Speaker 2>if he's ever going to get a cease and desister

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<v Speaker 2>order from Frank Rapp to pull down that YouTube video.

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<v Speaker 3>Yeah, I'd love to watch it and see the tone

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<v Speaker 3>because if he accuses him, I would Jules, you might

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00:16:20.600 --> 00:16:22.200
<v Speaker 3>be facing a lawsuit.

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<v Speaker 1>And Ashally, maybe you can speak to this because you

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<v Speaker 1>understand a lot more about police departments and like institutions

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<v Speaker 1>in general. But I know within corrupt police institutions and

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<v Speaker 1>just within police departments as a whole, there tends to

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<v Speaker 1>be a bit of a domestic violence blind spot. And

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<v Speaker 1>I know they've done a lot of departments have done

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<v Speaker 1>a lot of work to bring themselves forward so that

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<v Speaker 1>you don't have police responding to calls where there's domestic

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<v Speaker 1>violence which includes a cop and then them not taking

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<v Speaker 1>a report or not reporting it. But I would think

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<v Speaker 1>in this case, if one of their fellow officers girlfriends

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<v Speaker 1>was murdered, that they would draw the line with not

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<v Speaker 1>only just a not only a murder, but a murder

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00:17:07.640 --> 00:17:10.880
<v Speaker 1>in which her body was bisected and half of it

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00:17:10.960 --> 00:17:13.440
<v Speaker 1>was never found. I would think most people at that

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<v Speaker 1>point would throw up their hands and go, Okay, you

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00:17:16.359 --> 00:17:19.160
<v Speaker 1>know there is a brotherhood here, but like this is

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<v Speaker 1>where it stops.

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<v Speaker 3>Yeah, I absolutely think so. I think when you think

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<v Speaker 3>about someone who literally becomes like a brother or sister

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<v Speaker 3>because they are putting themselves at risk every day with you,

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00:17:30.359 --> 00:17:35.279
<v Speaker 3>and because people do create an air where it's normal

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<v Speaker 3>to be almost corrupt. If your department is right, young

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<v Speaker 3>rookies come in, they aren't corrupt, the people training them

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<v Speaker 3>might be, and therefore corruption becomes not abnormal, and it's

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<v Speaker 3>not even it's like an abusive home right where you

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<v Speaker 3>go like, oh the abuse is so normal, Like okay,

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<v Speaker 3>we're all kind of part of it, and we're all living.

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<v Speaker 4>In this dysfunction.

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<v Speaker 3>And so some of it isn't even conscious that the

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<v Speaker 3>dysfunction that occurs in some kinds of police departments and institutions.

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<v Speaker 3>But you also do have that issue with domestic violence, right.

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<v Speaker 3>There's high rates of divorce and abuse and things like

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<v Speaker 3>that in high stress careers, and law.

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<v Speaker 4>Enforcement is one of them.

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<v Speaker 3>And so I think if you had a dysfunctional group

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<v Speaker 3>of officers. Let's say a boyfriend girlfriend fuss all the time.

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<v Speaker 4>We already know they.

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00:18:24.400 --> 00:18:29.160
<v Speaker 3>Have issues, and let's say she dies and the buddies like, hey, listen, man,

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00:18:29.240 --> 00:18:31.599
<v Speaker 3>you know we got a fight. She died, I could

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<v Speaker 3>see corruption occurring there because they're all like, oh, man,

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00:18:34.480 --> 00:18:36.839
<v Speaker 3>been there, done that, been in awful fights with my wife,

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<v Speaker 3>things like that.

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<v Speaker 4>Not okay, really sick.

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<v Speaker 3>However, again, when you look at this crime, it is

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<v Speaker 3>not just an accident that occurred and nine when one

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<v Speaker 3>was called, or you know they're covering.

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<v Speaker 4>Oh, this is a suicide in set of a murder.

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<v Speaker 4>It's none of that kind of corruption.

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<v Speaker 3>This is a body is found almost discarded like an

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<v Speaker 3>animal would be cut in and half of her body

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<v Speaker 3>is missing, and it's so precise, it's so thought out.

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<v Speaker 3>I would never want to serve next to a person.

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<v Speaker 4>Like that, especially with a weapon.

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<v Speaker 3>So I can't imagine another officer saying I get it, man,

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<v Speaker 3>I understand, I'm going to cover for you. I think

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<v Speaker 3>they'd be scared to work alongside him.

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<v Speaker 1>At least one officer would have cracked if that were

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<v Speaker 1>the case, if they suspected him of doing it.

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<v Speaker 3>Oh yeah, oh yeah. There would have been ia all

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<v Speaker 3>over that. At least one person would have come forward

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<v Speaker 3>and like, look, I can't even stand for that, right.

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<v Speaker 2>So I guess now would be a good time to

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<v Speaker 2>discuss Frank and his wife, Susan Niictor, who employed Karina

385
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<v Speaker 2>as an o pair at the time, And even though

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<v Speaker 2>they never been named as suspects or persons of interest,

387
00:19:42.119 --> 00:19:45.200
<v Speaker 2>you'll still find people direct suspicion towards them during online

388
00:19:45.240 --> 00:19:49.119
<v Speaker 2>discussions about this case. Obviously, one of the biggest unanswered

389
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<v Speaker 2>questions is the cryptic letter Karina sent to her friend

390
00:19:52.000 --> 00:19:55.400
<v Speaker 2>in Sweden, in which she wrote quote something terrible has happened.

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<v Speaker 2>And other letters to her family, Karina had expressed unhappiness

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<v Speaker 2>with her own pairent job, mostly because of the workload

393
00:20:02.079 --> 00:20:05.720
<v Speaker 2>it required, and seemed anxious to return home earlier than planned.

394
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<v Speaker 2>But this particular letter suggested that something much darker was

395
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<v Speaker 2>taking place. While Frank and Susan always maintained that they

396
00:20:12.960 --> 00:20:16.720
<v Speaker 2>didn't notice anything to suggest Karina was unhappy, some online

397
00:20:16.759 --> 00:20:20.519
<v Speaker 2>slusive speculated that the terrible thing Karna referred to might

398
00:20:20.519 --> 00:20:23.519
<v Speaker 2>have been Frank taking advantage of her. In fact, one

399
00:20:23.559 --> 00:20:26.519
<v Speaker 2>prominent theory the reason Karina's body was sliced in half

400
00:20:26.680 --> 00:20:28.720
<v Speaker 2>was to cover up the fact that she was pregnant.

401
00:20:29.279 --> 00:20:31.960
<v Speaker 2>This wouldn't necessarily mean that Frank was the culprit, as

402
00:20:32.000 --> 00:20:35.880
<v Speaker 2>a completely different person could have gotten Karina pregnant. If so,

403
00:20:36.119 --> 00:20:38.680
<v Speaker 2>this would mean the crime was much more personal, rather

404
00:20:38.720 --> 00:20:41.680
<v Speaker 2>than Karina being murdered by a random stranger she encountered

405
00:20:41.720 --> 00:20:44.519
<v Speaker 2>on the night she went out party. However, I can't

406
00:20:44.519 --> 00:20:46.880
<v Speaker 2>say I've ever put much stock into this theory, because

407
00:20:46.920 --> 00:20:49.519
<v Speaker 2>even if a fetus had been removed from Karina's womb,

408
00:20:49.920 --> 00:20:51.519
<v Speaker 2>I'd like to think that there still would have been

409
00:20:51.599 --> 00:20:54.160
<v Speaker 2>medical evidence to indicate if she had been pregnant at

410
00:20:54.200 --> 00:20:57.680
<v Speaker 2>some point. After all, even though Karina had been sliced

411
00:20:57.680 --> 00:20:59.640
<v Speaker 2>in half at the waist on the lower half of

412
00:20:59.640 --> 00:21:02.559
<v Speaker 2>her boy, he was missing her torso was still intact.

413
00:21:03.279 --> 00:21:05.480
<v Speaker 2>But getting back to Frank, rapp I guess one of

414
00:21:05.480 --> 00:21:08.039
<v Speaker 2>the main reasons people have speculated that something may have

415
00:21:08.039 --> 00:21:10.680
<v Speaker 2>been going on with him and Karina is because he

416
00:21:10.720 --> 00:21:13.680
<v Speaker 2>allowed her to spend weekends staying at his photography studio,

417
00:21:13.920 --> 00:21:17.440
<v Speaker 2>which doubled as aloft, So theoretically, if they were having

418
00:21:17.480 --> 00:21:20.039
<v Speaker 2>an affair, this would be an ideal place for them

419
00:21:20.039 --> 00:21:23.039
<v Speaker 2>to carry it out, away from Frank's wife and children.

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00:21:23.200 --> 00:21:25.759
<v Speaker 2>It's also worth mentioning that Karina was technically in the

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00:21:25.799 --> 00:21:28.359
<v Speaker 2>country illegally while she was working as an all pair,

422
00:21:28.839 --> 00:21:31.440
<v Speaker 2>as the family had hired her through a rather shady

423
00:21:31.519 --> 00:21:35.119
<v Speaker 2>Swedish agency which placed o pairs in the US without

424
00:21:35.119 --> 00:21:39.119
<v Speaker 2>securing them a proper work visa. So if anything inappropriate

425
00:21:39.200 --> 00:21:41.720
<v Speaker 2>was going on well Karina was employed in that household,

426
00:21:42.039 --> 00:21:44.720
<v Speaker 2>she wouldn't have much leverage to complain to the authorities

427
00:21:44.759 --> 00:21:48.200
<v Speaker 2>without fear of being deported. It's also worth mentioning that

428
00:21:48.240 --> 00:21:51.599
<v Speaker 2>there were past issues in Frank and Susan's marriage, as

429
00:21:51.680 --> 00:21:54.759
<v Speaker 2>back in January of nineteen ninety one, Frank was actually

430
00:21:54.839 --> 00:21:58.079
<v Speaker 2>charged with assault and battery against his wife, which prompted

431
00:21:58.119 --> 00:22:01.640
<v Speaker 2>her to request a temporary restraining order against him. But

432
00:22:01.720 --> 00:22:04.160
<v Speaker 2>a few months later Susan asked that the charges be

433
00:22:04.279 --> 00:22:06.880
<v Speaker 2>dropped against Frank, as she claimed his actions were the

434
00:22:06.920 --> 00:22:10.640
<v Speaker 2>result of issues with alcoholism and he was now undergoing treatment.

435
00:22:11.359 --> 00:22:13.319
<v Speaker 2>She would later say that the incident was the best

436
00:22:13.359 --> 00:22:15.519
<v Speaker 2>thing that could have happened to save their marriage, and

437
00:22:15.599 --> 00:22:18.240
<v Speaker 2>to Frank's credit, I get the impression that he did

438
00:22:18.319 --> 00:22:21.799
<v Speaker 2>genuinely turn things around. I see no indication that there

439
00:22:21.799 --> 00:22:24.160
<v Speaker 2>were any more serious issues with the marriage, and if

440
00:22:24.200 --> 00:22:27.240
<v Speaker 2>you search online, you'll see that Frank and Susan are

441
00:22:27.279 --> 00:22:28.599
<v Speaker 2>still together to this day.

442
00:22:29.920 --> 00:22:31.880
<v Speaker 3>Well, okay, let's go back to that a little bit.

443
00:22:31.960 --> 00:22:36.799
<v Speaker 3>When you see that Frank is arrested for assault on

444
00:22:36.839 --> 00:22:40.160
<v Speaker 3>his wife and there's assault and battery charges there, and

445
00:22:40.160 --> 00:22:42.599
<v Speaker 3>then later she drops the charges. This is a very

446
00:22:43.079 --> 00:22:46.319
<v Speaker 3>common occurrence, right. You have a husband and wife who

447
00:22:46.440 --> 00:22:50.319
<v Speaker 3>are fighting, and she's scared enough to press charges, and

448
00:22:50.359 --> 00:22:55.079
<v Speaker 3>then she wants the charges dropped because Frank's a good

449
00:22:55.200 --> 00:22:59.039
<v Speaker 3>man who happens to get abusive at certain points, and

450
00:22:59.160 --> 00:23:02.559
<v Speaker 3>there's that psych of violence that occurs where she sees

451
00:23:02.599 --> 00:23:06.160
<v Speaker 3>her husband as a dual kind of person, right, the

452
00:23:06.240 --> 00:23:09.720
<v Speaker 3>abuser and the man who's a good father and husband

453
00:23:09.759 --> 00:23:12.319
<v Speaker 3>and hard worker and things like that. And so when

454
00:23:12.319 --> 00:23:15.359
<v Speaker 3>you think about that, cycle right where she's walking on eggshells.

455
00:23:15.359 --> 00:23:18.680
<v Speaker 3>There's an eruption, there's abuse. That's when she needs the police,

456
00:23:18.680 --> 00:23:21.599
<v Speaker 3>That's when she calls. But then Frank's going to present

457
00:23:21.759 --> 00:23:24.319
<v Speaker 3>as the other side where he says, I, you know,

458
00:23:24.359 --> 00:23:27.279
<v Speaker 3>I never meant to do that. I'm so sorry, and

459
00:23:27.319 --> 00:23:30.279
<v Speaker 3>then she welcomes him back in. That's the father of

460
00:23:30.279 --> 00:23:33.519
<v Speaker 3>her kids, that's her stability, that's her life. And so

461
00:23:34.039 --> 00:23:35.000
<v Speaker 3>is Frank a good man?

462
00:23:35.079 --> 00:23:36.359
<v Speaker 4>I don't know that. I don't know.

463
00:23:37.000 --> 00:23:40.880
<v Speaker 3>Goodman make mistakes and good men have trauma and issues

464
00:23:40.920 --> 00:23:45.640
<v Speaker 3>as well. But if Frank was a systematic abuser of

465
00:23:45.680 --> 00:23:48.400
<v Speaker 3>his wife, she would defend him even if she knew

466
00:23:48.440 --> 00:23:50.079
<v Speaker 3>something was going on, because.

467
00:23:49.839 --> 00:23:50.720
<v Speaker 4>She's doing it here.

468
00:23:51.680 --> 00:23:54.559
<v Speaker 3>If Frank is not a good man, then you might

469
00:23:54.680 --> 00:23:56.960
<v Speaker 3>see that he could have been doing something like have

470
00:23:57.039 --> 00:24:01.880
<v Speaker 3>an affair right, be an abuser consistently. But again, that

471
00:24:01.960 --> 00:24:04.880
<v Speaker 3>doesn't make him a murderer, and that doesn't make him

472
00:24:04.960 --> 00:24:07.359
<v Speaker 3>a murderer who's going to cut his victim in half

473
00:24:07.440 --> 00:24:13.519
<v Speaker 3>with precision. It's possible, but they don't equate, right, And

474
00:24:13.559 --> 00:24:15.240
<v Speaker 3>I think it's important to say that you can have

475
00:24:15.279 --> 00:24:18.119
<v Speaker 3>someone who makes really poor decisions or someone who's fueled

476
00:24:18.160 --> 00:24:21.440
<v Speaker 3>with a mental health issue or trauma and acts out.

477
00:24:21.319 --> 00:24:23.799
<v Speaker 4>In a dangerous way, But it doesn't make them a killer.

478
00:24:23.920 --> 00:24:28.119
<v Speaker 3>So motive, yes, especially if he's having an affair, especially

479
00:24:28.119 --> 00:24:30.480
<v Speaker 3>if things are going wrong, especially if he's worried about

480
00:24:30.480 --> 00:24:33.720
<v Speaker 3>getting caught up in some legal issues because of having

481
00:24:33.799 --> 00:24:38.079
<v Speaker 3>this illegal individual at his home who knows but doesn't equate.

482
00:24:38.279 --> 00:24:40.519
<v Speaker 3>Definitely a problem with the way Susan and him have

483
00:24:40.680 --> 00:24:42.720
<v Speaker 3>their marriage, but that doesn't make him a killer.

484
00:24:43.039 --> 00:24:46.559
<v Speaker 1>Even if they were having an affair. He had an alibi,

485
00:24:46.799 --> 00:24:49.240
<v Speaker 1>and like, what are the chances that he would be

486
00:24:49.279 --> 00:24:53.000
<v Speaker 1>able to somehow shirk that alibi and then find another

487
00:24:53.039 --> 00:24:56.079
<v Speaker 1>location in order to do this to her body. I

488
00:24:56.119 --> 00:24:58.759
<v Speaker 1>don't believe the pregnancy thing either, because if you were

489
00:24:58.799 --> 00:25:02.039
<v Speaker 1>going to bisect a body to pregnancy, I don't think

490
00:25:02.119 --> 00:25:05.880
<v Speaker 1>that you would necessarily you would know, you there would

491
00:25:05.960 --> 00:25:10.640
<v Speaker 1>be some clues left. I would think because her upper

492
00:25:10.640 --> 00:25:14.039
<v Speaker 1>body was found, which would included her torso, So I

493
00:25:14.039 --> 00:25:16.680
<v Speaker 1>would think that you would like trisect the body, right,

494
00:25:17.079 --> 00:25:20.440
<v Speaker 1>maybe take off the upper body and then take off

495
00:25:20.480 --> 00:25:22.200
<v Speaker 1>the torso, which would be the part that would be

496
00:25:22.240 --> 00:25:24.119
<v Speaker 1>the most sensitive, and get.

497
00:25:24.000 --> 00:25:24.440
<v Speaker 4>Rid of it.

498
00:25:25.079 --> 00:25:29.079
<v Speaker 1>But it just seems so odd that we don't know

499
00:25:29.200 --> 00:25:32.200
<v Speaker 1>anything about Like we know that there was other O pairs,

500
00:25:32.720 --> 00:25:35.079
<v Speaker 1>but we haven't heard from any of these other O

501
00:25:35.240 --> 00:25:39.240
<v Speaker 1>pairs the way that Frank and Susan treated them, have we, Robin.

502
00:25:39.480 --> 00:25:42.880
<v Speaker 2>We haven't. No, Like, no real diurtists come out about them,

503
00:25:42.920 --> 00:25:46.799
<v Speaker 2>other than Frank's domestic abuse charge from the early nineties.

504
00:25:46.839 --> 00:25:49.880
<v Speaker 2>But like I said, after he went into rehab and

505
00:25:49.920 --> 00:25:52.200
<v Speaker 2>they got back together, it seems like they have lived

506
00:25:52.240 --> 00:25:55.839
<v Speaker 2>a model lifestyle for the past thirty years.

507
00:25:57.200 --> 00:26:00.559
<v Speaker 1>It's interesting how during the early stages of the investigation,

508
00:26:01.200 --> 00:26:03.759
<v Speaker 1>Frank and Susan told the media that they've been cleared

509
00:26:03.759 --> 00:26:08.160
<v Speaker 1>to suspects, but law enforcement never officially confirmed or denied this,

510
00:26:08.799 --> 00:26:11.440
<v Speaker 1>so I'm not sure if they were completely ruled out.

511
00:26:12.240 --> 00:26:15.839
<v Speaker 1>This doesn't necessarily mean that police believed the couple was involved,

512
00:26:15.960 --> 00:26:19.440
<v Speaker 1>as no source close to the investigation told the Boston Globe.

513
00:26:19.680 --> 00:26:22.400
<v Speaker 1>Oh as one source close to the investigation told the

514
00:26:22.440 --> 00:26:26.480
<v Speaker 1>Boston Globe quote, no one's a suspect, but everyone's a suspect,

515
00:26:27.000 --> 00:26:31.480
<v Speaker 1>which implies that they were not eliminating any possibilities. As

516
00:26:31.480 --> 00:26:34.279
<v Speaker 1>far as Frank and Susan's alibi during that time period

517
00:26:34.319 --> 00:26:37.480
<v Speaker 1>that Karina was killed, they always maintained that on the

518
00:26:37.519 --> 00:26:40.559
<v Speaker 1>evening of Friday, June twenty first, they took their kids

519
00:26:40.559 --> 00:26:44.039
<v Speaker 1>to McDonald's and a drive in movie. This wouldn't necessarily

520
00:26:44.160 --> 00:26:47.200
<v Speaker 1>rule them out, since Karina went missing sometime between two

521
00:26:47.240 --> 00:26:49.839
<v Speaker 1>and three am on the morning of June twenty second,

522
00:26:50.319 --> 00:26:52.720
<v Speaker 1>and her body was not found until the afternoon of

523
00:26:52.799 --> 00:26:55.960
<v Speaker 1>June twenty third, But it sounds like Frank's parents were

524
00:26:56.039 --> 00:26:58.279
<v Speaker 1>visiting for the weekend and could pretty much account for

525
00:26:58.319 --> 00:27:02.000
<v Speaker 1>the couple's whereabouts. I mean, technically, I guess Frank could

526
00:27:02.039 --> 00:27:04.240
<v Speaker 1>have snuck out and killed Karina while the rest of

527
00:27:04.279 --> 00:27:06.839
<v Speaker 1>the family were sleeping, But how would he have known

528
00:27:06.880 --> 00:27:09.440
<v Speaker 1>where to find her? How could he predict Karina would

529
00:27:09.480 --> 00:27:12.119
<v Speaker 1>be leaving the Zanzibar night club at that particular time.

530
00:27:12.839 --> 00:27:15.160
<v Speaker 1>If Frank was able to kill Karina at the loft,

531
00:27:15.279 --> 00:27:18.160
<v Speaker 1>then that would make sense since he had access to it,

532
00:27:18.240 --> 00:27:21.000
<v Speaker 1>but there's no indication that Karina ever made it back

533
00:27:21.039 --> 00:27:24.359
<v Speaker 1>there after she left the club. Police even performed a

534
00:27:24.400 --> 00:27:26.599
<v Speaker 1>search of the loft with a trained dog, but found

535
00:27:26.759 --> 00:27:29.599
<v Speaker 1>no evidence to suggest a crime had taken place there,

536
00:27:29.920 --> 00:27:32.359
<v Speaker 1>which you would expect if it involved a victim being

537
00:27:32.400 --> 00:27:36.160
<v Speaker 1>dismembered and sliced in half. I guess one troubling issue

538
00:27:36.200 --> 00:27:39.279
<v Speaker 1>which put Frank and Susan in a suspicious light was

539
00:27:39.359 --> 00:27:41.440
<v Speaker 1>the fire that took place in the dumpster near their

540
00:27:41.519 --> 00:27:44.839
<v Speaker 1>condo on the night after Karina's body was found. And

541
00:27:44.880 --> 00:27:48.279
<v Speaker 1>there's also the coincidental timing of Frank securing a permit

542
00:27:48.400 --> 00:27:51.160
<v Speaker 1>at a nearby transfer and recycling station on the night

543
00:27:51.200 --> 00:27:55.079
<v Speaker 1>before Karina was found, though Susan told the press that

544
00:27:55.119 --> 00:27:57.559
<v Speaker 1>this was only done for the purpose of disposing of

545
00:27:57.599 --> 00:28:01.519
<v Speaker 1>recycled newspapers since their Konda Minium complex did not have

546
00:28:01.599 --> 00:28:05.960
<v Speaker 1>recycling facilities. Since none of the burn materials were covered

547
00:28:05.960 --> 00:28:09.359
<v Speaker 1>from the dumpster had any connection to Karina's case, it's

548
00:28:09.359 --> 00:28:12.000
<v Speaker 1>certainly possible that the whole incident was nothing more than

549
00:28:12.000 --> 00:28:16.160
<v Speaker 1>an odd coincidence. And really, if Frank or Susan wanted

550
00:28:16.160 --> 00:28:19.039
<v Speaker 1>to burn incriminating evidence, I'd like to think that they

551
00:28:19.079 --> 00:28:20.960
<v Speaker 1>would be smart enough not to do so in a

552
00:28:21.039 --> 00:28:25.200
<v Speaker 1>dumpster located so close to their residence. During a twenty

553
00:28:25.279 --> 00:28:30.000
<v Speaker 1>nineteen news report on the Boston radio station WGBH, Frank

554
00:28:30.039 --> 00:28:32.960
<v Speaker 1>and Susan commented on how frustrating it is when you

555
00:28:33.039 --> 00:28:36.359
<v Speaker 1>type the name Frank Rapp into Google these days, many

556
00:28:36.400 --> 00:28:39.160
<v Speaker 1>of the top matches mentioned him being a potential murder

557
00:28:39.200 --> 00:28:43.799
<v Speaker 1>suspect rather than a successful photographer. Indeed, it is hard

558
00:28:43.799 --> 00:28:46.960
<v Speaker 1>to imagine Frank committing such a brutal and horrific crime

559
00:28:47.039 --> 00:28:48.799
<v Speaker 1>and then being able to live a normal life with

560
00:28:48.839 --> 00:28:51.680
<v Speaker 1>his family for the next three decades. If the couple

561
00:28:51.720 --> 00:28:55.480
<v Speaker 1>are completely innocent of any involvement in Karina's murder, then

562
00:28:55.519 --> 00:28:58.279
<v Speaker 1>you definitely have to feel sympathy for Frank and Susan

563
00:28:58.559 --> 00:29:01.960
<v Speaker 1>as in addition to the ensuing suspicion directed towards them.

564
00:29:02.440 --> 00:29:05.000
<v Speaker 1>I'm sure that this must have been a very traumatic

565
00:29:05.039 --> 00:29:06.799
<v Speaker 1>event to experience.

566
00:29:07.359 --> 00:29:09.480
<v Speaker 3>And think about the kids that she was brought here

567
00:29:09.519 --> 00:29:11.319
<v Speaker 3>to take care of. It had to be traumatic for

568
00:29:11.359 --> 00:29:15.559
<v Speaker 3>them as well. And Frank's a photographer. Does a photographer

569
00:29:15.680 --> 00:29:20.079
<v Speaker 3>know how to perfectly cut an individual in half and

570
00:29:20.200 --> 00:29:23.680
<v Speaker 3>leave no damage to the rest of her body? Think

571
00:29:23.680 --> 00:29:27.440
<v Speaker 3>about this, when when they discovered her torso the upper

572
00:29:27.440 --> 00:29:30.359
<v Speaker 3>half of her body, what kinds of injuries were to

573
00:29:30.400 --> 00:29:31.279
<v Speaker 3>the rest of her body?

574
00:29:32.279 --> 00:29:34.720
<v Speaker 2>She had been strangled, but I don't think they found

575
00:29:34.720 --> 00:29:36.759
<v Speaker 2>any other noticeable injuries to her at all.

576
00:29:37.319 --> 00:29:40.680
<v Speaker 3>Okay, so there's no stab wounds or things like that,

577
00:29:40.759 --> 00:29:43.759
<v Speaker 3>And It's interesting because had she gotten in a lover's

578
00:29:43.839 --> 00:29:46.799
<v Speaker 3>coral or been in a fight with someone, I feel

579
00:29:46.839 --> 00:29:50.119
<v Speaker 3>like that would have been evident that you would have

580
00:29:50.240 --> 00:29:53.240
<v Speaker 3>seen much more of let's say, like she got stabbed

581
00:29:53.440 --> 00:29:57.480
<v Speaker 3>or she had been assaulted physically over and over again

582
00:29:57.839 --> 00:30:01.359
<v Speaker 3>prior to being strangled. Would have been the kind of

583
00:30:01.400 --> 00:30:04.359
<v Speaker 3>the end of that fight. And it doesn't seem like

584
00:30:04.400 --> 00:30:06.440
<v Speaker 3>her body showed signs of that. It's like someone who

585
00:30:06.519 --> 00:30:08.960
<v Speaker 3>knew exactly what they were doing. They had done it before,

586
00:30:09.079 --> 00:30:13.119
<v Speaker 3>they got excited about watching her, you know, to pass

587
00:30:13.160 --> 00:30:15.599
<v Speaker 3>away in the way that they strangled her, and then

588
00:30:16.079 --> 00:30:19.079
<v Speaker 3>perfectly we're able to not only cut her but also

589
00:30:19.160 --> 00:30:21.960
<v Speaker 3>then discard of the lower half without getting caught. I

590
00:30:22.000 --> 00:30:24.400
<v Speaker 3>think this is someone who knows what they're doing because

591
00:30:24.400 --> 00:30:27.480
<v Speaker 3>they've done it many times before, and it's not improbable

592
00:30:27.519 --> 00:30:29.000
<v Speaker 3>that they did it after as well.

593
00:30:29.279 --> 00:30:30.599
<v Speaker 1>Did they do a talk screen?

594
00:30:31.240 --> 00:30:33.680
<v Speaker 2>No, they If they did, they've never mentioned it publicly

595
00:30:33.720 --> 00:30:35.880
<v Speaker 2>because I didn't find that information. I mean, we know

596
00:30:36.039 --> 00:30:38.559
<v Speaker 2>that she was drinking that night, but I haven't heard

597
00:30:38.599 --> 00:30:40.920
<v Speaker 2>anything to check if these to see if she took

598
00:30:40.920 --> 00:30:41.960
<v Speaker 2>any drugs.

599
00:30:41.720 --> 00:30:44.079
<v Speaker 1>Because what if he gave her a paralytic or something

600
00:30:44.200 --> 00:30:47.160
<v Speaker 1>because that would explain why there would be no defensive wounds,

601
00:30:47.200 --> 00:30:50.799
<v Speaker 1>because if she was restrained, we would likely see marks

602
00:30:50.799 --> 00:30:51.200
<v Speaker 1>from that.

603
00:30:51.319 --> 00:30:52.119
<v Speaker 4>Correct.

604
00:30:53.039 --> 00:30:55.680
<v Speaker 2>Yes, and they said there were rope marks around her

605
00:30:55.720 --> 00:30:58.799
<v Speaker 2>neck to indicate she'd been strangled, but no other marks

606
00:30:58.920 --> 00:31:03.359
<v Speaker 2>or bruises or defense of wounds. So now we'll move

607
00:31:03.359 --> 00:31:05.799
<v Speaker 2>on to discuss three other individuals who have been looked

608
00:31:05.799 --> 00:31:08.559
<v Speaker 2>at as potential suspects because they have connections to the

609
00:31:08.640 --> 00:31:12.400
<v Speaker 2>Zansabar nightclub, as two of these individuals were seen interacting

610
00:31:12.400 --> 00:31:14.759
<v Speaker 2>with Karina after she exited the club on the night

611
00:31:14.799 --> 00:31:18.759
<v Speaker 2>she disappeared. The first one was one Polo, an unhoused

612
00:31:18.799 --> 00:31:21.759
<v Speaker 2>panhandler who was seen singing and dancing with Karrena and

613
00:31:21.759 --> 00:31:24.880
<v Speaker 2>an Alley while she was intoxicated, and it certainly wasn't

614
00:31:24.960 --> 00:31:27.640
<v Speaker 2>unreasonable to suspect him since he had a criminal history

615
00:31:27.680 --> 00:31:31.160
<v Speaker 2>and at least one rape accusation. It's been reported that

616
00:31:31.200 --> 00:31:33.400
<v Speaker 2>Polo was questioned in relation to the murder of a

617
00:31:33.440 --> 00:31:38.480
<v Speaker 2>former girlfriend named Evelyn Alvarez, which took place one year earlier. Unfortunately,

618
00:31:38.519 --> 00:31:41.160
<v Speaker 2>other than one article published in the Boston Globe in

619
00:31:41.200 --> 00:31:44.240
<v Speaker 2>April of nineteen ninety five, I cannot find any additional

620
00:31:44.240 --> 00:31:47.039
<v Speaker 2>information about this crime, so I have no idea if

621
00:31:47.039 --> 00:31:50.759
<v Speaker 2>it's still unsolved. But one interesting detail in that case

622
00:31:50.880 --> 00:31:53.839
<v Speaker 2>is that Evelyn hailed from the city of Chelsea, located

623
00:31:53.839 --> 00:31:57.920
<v Speaker 2>directly across the Mystic River from Boston, so investigators wondered

624
00:31:57.920 --> 00:32:00.359
<v Speaker 2>if she was murdered in the Boston area before the

625
00:32:00.440 --> 00:32:04.200
<v Speaker 2>killer drove to Lakeville to dispose of her body. Regardless,

626
00:32:04.440 --> 00:32:06.960
<v Speaker 2>no evidence was found to suggest that Karina and Evelyn's

627
00:32:07.039 --> 00:32:10.119
<v Speaker 2>murders might be connected. And while it does not sound

628
00:32:10.160 --> 00:32:13.400
<v Speaker 2>like Polo was officially ruled out as a suspecting Karina's case,

629
00:32:13.720 --> 00:32:15.759
<v Speaker 2>the fact that he was unhoused and did not appear

630
00:32:15.799 --> 00:32:18.319
<v Speaker 2>to have access to a vehicle would seem to point

631
00:32:18.359 --> 00:32:21.480
<v Speaker 2>to him not being the killer. If Polo murdered Karina,

632
00:32:21.599 --> 00:32:24.119
<v Speaker 2>where would he have dismembered her? And without a vehicle,

633
00:32:24.359 --> 00:32:26.680
<v Speaker 2>how could he transport both halves for her body and

634
00:32:26.720 --> 00:32:27.599
<v Speaker 2>dispose of them?

635
00:32:28.039 --> 00:32:30.960
<v Speaker 3>Absolutely, that's exactly what I thought, right. If he's unhoused,

636
00:32:31.000 --> 00:32:34.640
<v Speaker 3>he has nowhere to take her. There's a belief that

637
00:32:34.720 --> 00:32:38.400
<v Speaker 3>she was kept alive after she left that bar for

638
00:32:38.440 --> 00:32:41.960
<v Speaker 3>about twenty four hours, and so she had to go somewhere.

639
00:32:42.440 --> 00:32:44.759
<v Speaker 3>We actually have her running back in the bar and

640
00:32:44.759 --> 00:32:47.319
<v Speaker 3>telling her friends, I'm going somewhere with this older man.

641
00:32:47.759 --> 00:32:50.359
<v Speaker 3>So we know that she had plans to leave, but

642
00:32:50.440 --> 00:32:53.279
<v Speaker 3>they needed transportation to do so, right or they needed

643
00:32:53.319 --> 00:32:55.839
<v Speaker 3>at least a place to go, and so I just

644
00:32:55.880 --> 00:32:58.519
<v Speaker 3>don't see Polo having those options.

645
00:32:58.000 --> 00:33:04.000
<v Speaker 1>For her now herb Witten our second potential suspect who

646
00:33:04.039 --> 00:33:07.880
<v Speaker 1>spoke to Karina outside Zanzibar. He did have access to

647
00:33:07.920 --> 00:33:10.240
<v Speaker 1>a vehicle, but the fact that he was pulled over

648
00:33:10.359 --> 00:33:13.519
<v Speaker 1>and given a ticket for speeding later that morning does

649
00:33:13.559 --> 00:33:16.359
<v Speaker 1>seem to give him an alibi. I can see why

650
00:33:16.400 --> 00:33:19.200
<v Speaker 1>people might be suspicious of Witten since he lived over

651
00:33:19.240 --> 00:33:22.240
<v Speaker 1>twenty miles away in Andover and would drive to downtown

652
00:33:22.279 --> 00:33:25.319
<v Speaker 1>Boston with his dog and hang out outside bars and

653
00:33:25.440 --> 00:33:28.519
<v Speaker 1>nightclubs in order to talk to women, and since he

654
00:33:28.559 --> 00:33:30.519
<v Speaker 1>went to the trouble of dressing himself in his one

655
00:33:30.559 --> 00:33:33.759
<v Speaker 1>hundred and twenty pound dog in Superman shirts, I could

656
00:33:33.799 --> 00:33:36.319
<v Speaker 1>see women being inclined to go over and chat with them.

657
00:33:36.799 --> 00:33:40.079
<v Speaker 1>Even though there was surveillance footage of Karina chatting with Witten,

658
00:33:40.559 --> 00:33:43.519
<v Speaker 1>this might not have any significance, as it sounds like

659
00:33:43.559 --> 00:33:46.119
<v Speaker 1>Witten was doing this sort of thing long before this

660
00:33:46.240 --> 00:33:50.039
<v Speaker 1>encounter with Karina. I see no indication that Witten was

661
00:33:50.160 --> 00:33:53.359
<v Speaker 1>accused of being malicious or creepy towards other women while

662
00:33:53.400 --> 00:33:56.480
<v Speaker 1>hanging out around Boylston Place, and it might just be

663
00:33:56.599 --> 00:33:59.319
<v Speaker 1>an unfortunate coincidence that he was seen chatting with a

664
00:33:59.359 --> 00:34:03.519
<v Speaker 1>young woman shortly before she was murdered. Now, some would

665
00:34:03.640 --> 00:34:06.720
<v Speaker 1>argue that the speeding ticket does not completely exonerate Witten,

666
00:34:06.839 --> 00:34:09.679
<v Speaker 1>since he possibly could have had Karina's body inside his

667
00:34:09.760 --> 00:34:12.880
<v Speaker 1>trunk while this was taking place, and thus the Eaters

668
00:34:12.920 --> 00:34:15.559
<v Speaker 1>have never publicly released the exact time that Witton was

669
00:34:15.599 --> 00:34:19.039
<v Speaker 1>pulled over that morning or confirmed that his vehicle was searched.

670
00:34:19.320 --> 00:34:21.760
<v Speaker 1>But I wouldn't be surprised if it wasn't, since this

671
00:34:21.880 --> 00:34:24.400
<v Speaker 1>sounded like nothing more than a routine traffic stop.

672
00:34:25.719 --> 00:34:28.639
<v Speaker 3>Yeah, I don't think that Witton could could possibly be

673
00:34:29.079 --> 00:34:32.119
<v Speaker 3>the person here. I think, like we talked about earlier

674
00:34:32.159 --> 00:34:35.239
<v Speaker 3>in the first episode, is that he creates this kind

675
00:34:35.239 --> 00:34:39.679
<v Speaker 3>of illusion of someone who's almost humorous and laughable, someone

676
00:34:39.719 --> 00:34:44.119
<v Speaker 3>who's quirky because of the costumes, and would be somebody

677
00:34:44.119 --> 00:34:46.000
<v Speaker 3>that I would want to strike up a conversation with.

678
00:34:46.280 --> 00:34:48.400
<v Speaker 3>But when you look at the idea that he gets

679
00:34:48.440 --> 00:34:52.039
<v Speaker 3>pulled over later that night, that clearly he's struggling already.

680
00:34:52.360 --> 00:34:54.519
<v Speaker 3>I don't see this as somebody who's going to have

681
00:34:54.559 --> 00:34:57.599
<v Speaker 3>the wherewithal to them to be charming to the extent

682
00:34:57.719 --> 00:35:00.440
<v Speaker 3>that he could lure someone away from the bar with him.

683
00:35:00.559 --> 00:35:03.079
<v Speaker 3>I think he would send off red flags that hey,

684
00:35:03.480 --> 00:35:06.079
<v Speaker 3>I'm maybe not a bad guy, maybe I'm not a

685
00:35:06.159 --> 00:35:10.840
<v Speaker 3>dangerous guy, but I'm lonely. I want attention from people.

686
00:35:11.280 --> 00:35:13.599
<v Speaker 3>I'm desperate to talk to people, and I don't think

687
00:35:13.599 --> 00:35:16.599
<v Speaker 3>that's somebody that Karina, even intoxicated, wants to go with.

688
00:35:18.480 --> 00:35:20.840
<v Speaker 2>I know that it definitely raised some eyebrows when Wynten

689
00:35:20.880 --> 00:35:23.360
<v Speaker 2>decided to take his own life in January of nineteen

690
00:35:23.440 --> 00:35:26.679
<v Speaker 2>ninety seven, particularly since he did so by slitting his

691
00:35:26.719 --> 00:35:30.079
<v Speaker 2>own throat, which seems like a pretty extreme method for suicide.

692
00:35:30.639 --> 00:35:32.480
<v Speaker 2>So did wit and kill himself out of guilt for

693
00:35:32.559 --> 00:35:34.800
<v Speaker 2>what he did to Karna, or did he just crack

694
00:35:34.840 --> 00:35:37.039
<v Speaker 2>from the strain of being a potential suspect and a

695
00:35:37.039 --> 00:35:40.679
<v Speaker 2>homicide Well, after reading about Wynd's history of struggles with

696
00:35:40.719 --> 00:35:43.760
<v Speaker 2>depression and mental illness, I am inclined to believe it

697
00:35:43.800 --> 00:35:46.679
<v Speaker 2>was the latter. It's worth noting that even though police

698
00:35:46.679 --> 00:35:48.440
<v Speaker 2>announced that they were looking for a man with a

699
00:35:48.519 --> 00:35:51.159
<v Speaker 2>large sheep dog who had been speaking with Karina outside

700
00:35:51.199 --> 00:35:53.880
<v Speaker 2>the club, and the media lad reported that this man

701
00:35:53.960 --> 00:35:57.519
<v Speaker 2>had died by suicide. Wynn's name was never released publicly

702
00:35:57.639 --> 00:36:01.960
<v Speaker 2>until weeks after his death. Winn's attorney also prevented him

703
00:36:01.960 --> 00:36:04.679
<v Speaker 2>from being formally questioned by police, as he felt that

704
00:36:04.760 --> 00:36:08.519
<v Speaker 2>Wittin could not mentally handle an interrogation. But even though

705
00:36:08.559 --> 00:36:11.280
<v Speaker 2>Witten was never named as a suspect or person of interest,

706
00:36:11.599 --> 00:36:14.239
<v Speaker 2>it sounds like just being associated with this crime in

707
00:36:14.280 --> 00:36:17.480
<v Speaker 2>any fashion took a hole on his fragile mental health,

708
00:36:17.679 --> 00:36:19.440
<v Speaker 2>and he may have been the breaking point which drove

709
00:36:19.519 --> 00:36:22.400
<v Speaker 2>him to suicide. And you also have to couple this

710
00:36:22.480 --> 00:36:25.079
<v Speaker 2>in with the fact that Wynn's own father had recently

711
00:36:25.119 --> 00:36:27.679
<v Speaker 2>passed away, and it sounds like you took it pretty hard.

712
00:36:28.440 --> 00:36:30.480
<v Speaker 2>It was not until the lead detective on the case,

713
00:36:30.519 --> 00:36:33.800
<v Speaker 2>Thomas O'Leary, was asked about Witten in the June twenty third,

714
00:36:33.960 --> 00:36:36.599
<v Speaker 2>nineteen ninety eight edition of The Boston Herald, when he

715
00:36:36.639 --> 00:36:40.960
<v Speaker 2>publicly stated quote, he didn't do it. Indeed, one reason

716
00:36:41.000 --> 00:36:43.440
<v Speaker 2>why it's hard to imagine Witten being the killer is

717
00:36:43.480 --> 00:36:46.719
<v Speaker 2>because he had a history of erratic behavior. But Karina's

718
00:36:46.800 --> 00:36:50.360
<v Speaker 2>murder was meticulous organized crime, and it's hard to imagine

719
00:36:50.360 --> 00:36:53.559
<v Speaker 2>Witten Orjan Polo for that matter, being able to commit

720
00:36:53.599 --> 00:36:55.960
<v Speaker 2>a murder like this without leaving any evidence behind.

721
00:36:57.280 --> 00:36:59.480
<v Speaker 3>That's very true. I think that when you have this

722
00:36:59.599 --> 00:37:03.519
<v Speaker 3>idea where even the lead detective right comes out and says, hey,

723
00:37:04.119 --> 00:37:06.519
<v Speaker 3>Winton told me that he didn't do it right, it's

724
00:37:06.599 --> 00:37:09.000
<v Speaker 3>hard to think about this idea that he's a ratic,

725
00:37:09.320 --> 00:37:13.079
<v Speaker 3>and this crime clearly is not. There's not a piece

726
00:37:13.199 --> 00:37:17.000
<v Speaker 3>of evidence that shows that somebody haphazardly did this crime out.

727
00:37:16.840 --> 00:37:18.039
<v Speaker 4>Of a mental health episode.

728
00:37:18.079 --> 00:37:21.239
<v Speaker 3>It was planned, and so I just do not think

729
00:37:21.280 --> 00:37:25.280
<v Speaker 3>that either Witten or Polo have that ability to commit

730
00:37:25.320 --> 00:37:27.320
<v Speaker 3>the crime. I just I don't see it. I see

731
00:37:27.320 --> 00:37:31.199
<v Speaker 3>those two men. I see it this mysterious older man man.

732
00:37:32.079 --> 00:37:34.880
<v Speaker 3>I see that being a much more plausible explanation, and

733
00:37:35.199 --> 00:37:38.280
<v Speaker 3>or don't forget there is the stranger element as well.

734
00:37:39.119 --> 00:37:42.679
<v Speaker 1>I agree, I just don't see Polo or Witten as

735
00:37:42.920 --> 00:37:47.480
<v Speaker 1>very good suspects. Pollo doesn't have a place which he

736
00:37:47.519 --> 00:37:50.360
<v Speaker 1>would be able to do this act, and he doesn't

737
00:37:50.400 --> 00:37:53.280
<v Speaker 1>have a vehicle to transport him to a place even

738
00:37:53.320 --> 00:37:56.480
<v Speaker 1>if he did have it, And then Witten. It just

739
00:37:56.519 --> 00:37:59.039
<v Speaker 1>sounds like it's really sad. It sounds like a sad

740
00:37:59.079 --> 00:38:02.760
<v Speaker 1>situation of a man who was struggling with mental health issues.

741
00:38:03.239 --> 00:38:06.280
<v Speaker 1>And I don't find it personally suspicious that he decided

742
00:38:06.320 --> 00:38:09.480
<v Speaker 1>to end his own life. It is really horrific to

743
00:38:09.480 --> 00:38:11.920
<v Speaker 1>think what he went through in the moment's leading up

744
00:38:11.960 --> 00:38:15.280
<v Speaker 1>to that, and the method that he chose is just

745
00:38:16.079 --> 00:38:19.679
<v Speaker 1>it's awful, and I really feel for him and his family,

746
00:38:19.800 --> 00:38:21.960
<v Speaker 1>and I hope that that dog found a good home

747
00:38:22.000 --> 00:38:26.840
<v Speaker 1>after so Our final potential suspect is Gregory Hummel, who

748
00:38:26.880 --> 00:38:29.320
<v Speaker 1>was not seen with Karina at Zanzibar at the time

749
00:38:29.360 --> 00:38:32.280
<v Speaker 1>she was killed, but made the news six months later

750
00:38:32.320 --> 00:38:34.519
<v Speaker 1>when he picked up another young woman from the same

751
00:38:34.639 --> 00:38:37.559
<v Speaker 1>nightclub and proceeded to take her back to his apartment

752
00:38:37.599 --> 00:38:40.920
<v Speaker 1>and attempted to rape her. She managed to grab Humble's

753
00:38:41.000 --> 00:38:43.440
<v Speaker 1>mobile phone and lock herself in the bathroom to call

754
00:38:43.480 --> 00:38:46.360
<v Speaker 1>for help. But if this hadn't happened, could she have

755
00:38:46.440 --> 00:38:50.079
<v Speaker 1>potentially suffered the same fate as Karina. Well, Humble did

756
00:38:50.119 --> 00:38:53.599
<v Speaker 1>have a history of allegations of violence against women, There's

757
00:38:53.599 --> 00:38:56.599
<v Speaker 1>still a big difference between beating and sexually assaulting them

758
00:38:57.079 --> 00:39:00.480
<v Speaker 1>and murder and dismemberment. We were unable to find much

759
00:39:00.519 --> 00:39:04.000
<v Speaker 1>follow up information on the investigation into Hummel, only that

760
00:39:04.119 --> 00:39:06.079
<v Speaker 1>he spent a year in jail for his attack on

761
00:39:06.119 --> 00:39:09.360
<v Speaker 1>the other woman. And incidentally, if you search through the

762
00:39:09.360 --> 00:39:13.320
<v Speaker 1>Boston Globes archives, you'll find Hummell's name listed multiple times

763
00:39:13.360 --> 00:39:16.880
<v Speaker 1>in their real estate transaction section for selling houses during

764
00:39:16.920 --> 00:39:19.599
<v Speaker 1>the mid two thousands. So it does not sound like

765
00:39:19.599 --> 00:39:23.320
<v Speaker 1>his jailston curtails his real estate career. But even though

766
00:39:23.360 --> 00:39:26.480
<v Speaker 1>Hummel violently attacked a woman that he picked up his zanzibar,

767
00:39:27.000 --> 00:39:28.880
<v Speaker 1>I'm not sure if he could be placed at that

768
00:39:29.000 --> 00:39:31.760
<v Speaker 1>same club on the night that Karina was there. So,

769
00:39:31.840 --> 00:39:35.039
<v Speaker 1>for all we know, perhaps investigators were able to establish

770
00:39:35.119 --> 00:39:36.960
<v Speaker 1>that he had an alibi and ruled him out.

771
00:39:37.800 --> 00:39:40.199
<v Speaker 3>Yes, absolutely, When you look at this idea that he

772
00:39:40.320 --> 00:39:43.199
<v Speaker 3>attacked another woman from the same bar that our victim

773
00:39:43.239 --> 00:39:47.000
<v Speaker 3>went missing from, that doesn't equate to the level of

774
00:39:47.079 --> 00:39:50.480
<v Speaker 3>crime that happened against Karina, right, That is a totally

775
00:39:50.519 --> 00:39:54.880
<v Speaker 3>different element and realm of violence. And so when you

776
00:39:54.920 --> 00:39:56.960
<v Speaker 3>look at this, I think that he could have had

777
00:39:57.000 --> 00:40:00.199
<v Speaker 3>an issue with women, but I don't again see a

778
00:40:00.239 --> 00:40:05.480
<v Speaker 3>profession that indicates knowledge of being able to bilaterally cut

779
00:40:05.519 --> 00:40:09.159
<v Speaker 3>her right and to dispose of a body that way,

780
00:40:09.280 --> 00:40:12.880
<v Speaker 3>it just doesn't scream to me the same level of criminality.

781
00:40:13.119 --> 00:40:17.360
<v Speaker 3>So assaulting somebody horrific, But when you look at cutting

782
00:40:17.360 --> 00:40:20.960
<v Speaker 3>a body in half, discarding her, and strangling her to death,

783
00:40:21.000 --> 00:40:23.199
<v Speaker 3>those are not that. That's not at the same level

784
00:40:23.199 --> 00:40:26.000
<v Speaker 3>that this real estate agent is showing in his other

785
00:40:26.039 --> 00:40:27.000
<v Speaker 3>types of crimes.

786
00:40:27.400 --> 00:40:30.320
<v Speaker 1>And what do you guys think of the timing too? So, say,

787
00:40:30.840 --> 00:40:33.519
<v Speaker 1>just for example, that a man was to do this

788
00:40:33.639 --> 00:40:39.519
<v Speaker 1>to Karina, and we could hypothesize that there was some

789
00:40:39.599 --> 00:40:41.519
<v Speaker 1>kind of paralytic use because there was a lack of

790
00:40:41.559 --> 00:40:45.840
<v Speaker 1>defensive injuries, and aside from the rope burn around her neck,

791
00:40:46.039 --> 00:40:50.320
<v Speaker 1>there was no restraint marks. She didn't have any other

792
00:40:50.440 --> 00:40:54.239
<v Speaker 1>abrasions contusions, So it's very possible that she could have

793
00:40:54.320 --> 00:40:57.000
<v Speaker 1>been given some kind of drugs so that she remained calm,

794
00:40:57.119 --> 00:41:00.559
<v Speaker 1>so that this person could potentially sexually assault her or

795
00:41:00.679 --> 00:41:02.280
<v Speaker 1>do what they were going to do to her without

796
00:41:02.360 --> 00:41:05.679
<v Speaker 1>her fighting back. But then in this case we see

797
00:41:06.119 --> 00:41:10.960
<v Speaker 1>a really sloppy assault where he's incredibly violent and didn't

798
00:41:10.960 --> 00:41:14.039
<v Speaker 1>go to any steps to use any type of drugs

799
00:41:14.039 --> 00:41:19.000
<v Speaker 1>to subdue his victim. I just don't see the offender

800
00:41:19.079 --> 00:41:22.760
<v Speaker 1>connection here. It just seems like two completely different crimes.

801
00:41:23.599 --> 00:41:25.719
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, I totally agree, and I think that if Hummel

802
00:41:25.880 --> 00:41:28.400
<v Speaker 2>had this incident happened with a woman that he picked

803
00:41:28.440 --> 00:41:30.960
<v Speaker 2>up at an entirely different nightclub, they wouldn't even be

804
00:41:30.960 --> 00:41:33.079
<v Speaker 2>attempting to connect him to this case at all. It's

805
00:41:33.119 --> 00:41:36.559
<v Speaker 2>only because of the coincidental timing. But I do agree that

806
00:41:36.880 --> 00:41:39.159
<v Speaker 2>it seems like Karina's offender would be the type of

807
00:41:39.159 --> 00:41:41.519
<v Speaker 2>person that if he wanted to sexually assault a woman,

808
00:41:41.639 --> 00:41:44.480
<v Speaker 2>he would give her some sort of drug, whereas Humble

809
00:41:44.639 --> 00:41:47.079
<v Speaker 2>was just more violent and aggressive, and that's why this

810
00:41:47.159 --> 00:41:51.039
<v Speaker 2>woman managed to save herself. However, the one thing which

811
00:41:51.079 --> 00:41:54.519
<v Speaker 2>might point away from Humble, Polo Witten, Frank Rap, or

812
00:41:54.559 --> 00:41:57.599
<v Speaker 2>any of the other known potential suspects is the partial

813
00:41:57.639 --> 00:41:59.960
<v Speaker 2>fingerprint which was found on the trash bag can take

814
00:42:00.199 --> 00:42:03.840
<v Speaker 2>Karina's body. While this has never been publicly confirmed, I'd

815
00:42:03.880 --> 00:42:06.519
<v Speaker 2>like to think that investigators at least attempted to compare

816
00:42:06.559 --> 00:42:09.480
<v Speaker 2>the print to the fingerprints of all these other individuals

817
00:42:09.519 --> 00:42:11.559
<v Speaker 2>I just mentioned and found none of them to be

818
00:42:11.599 --> 00:42:14.360
<v Speaker 2>a match. So this is why I'm inclined to believe

819
00:42:14.360 --> 00:42:16.800
<v Speaker 2>that the perpetrator might be someone who has never been

820
00:42:16.800 --> 00:42:20.559
<v Speaker 2>investigated or shown up on the police's radar. It might

821
00:42:20.559 --> 00:42:22.880
<v Speaker 2>be hard to imagine someone going to the trouble of

822
00:42:22.960 --> 00:42:25.719
<v Speaker 2>slicing a woman's body in half and then never committing

823
00:42:25.760 --> 00:42:29.159
<v Speaker 2>another crime like that again. But after nearly eight years,

824
00:42:29.199 --> 00:42:32.039
<v Speaker 2>we've still never determined who is responsible for the Black

825
00:42:32.079 --> 00:42:35.639
<v Speaker 2>Dolly murder. So, for all you know, Elizabeth Schwortz killer

826
00:42:35.679 --> 00:42:37.760
<v Speaker 2>may have gone back to living a normal life and

827
00:42:37.800 --> 00:42:40.960
<v Speaker 2>didn't commit any more murders. The whole crime is such

828
00:42:40.960 --> 00:42:43.800
<v Speaker 2>an anomaly because we don't know of any similar murders

829
00:42:43.840 --> 00:42:46.559
<v Speaker 2>which took place in the Boston area during that time period.

830
00:42:46.960 --> 00:42:49.519
<v Speaker 2>So did that killer move elsewhere or change the remo,

831
00:42:49.840 --> 00:42:52.719
<v Speaker 2>or did they just simply never kill again. We have

832
00:42:52.840 --> 00:42:56.000
<v Speaker 2>to harken back to Karina's cryptic letter about something terrible

833
00:42:56.039 --> 00:42:58.599
<v Speaker 2>having happened, because while this might be nothing more than

834
00:42:58.639 --> 00:43:00.679
<v Speaker 2>a red herring, it could also hold the key to

835
00:43:00.719 --> 00:43:04.360
<v Speaker 2>the mystery. But until then we can only speculate, and

836
00:43:04.440 --> 00:43:06.360
<v Speaker 2>since this is a cold case which may not be

837
00:43:06.480 --> 00:43:09.320
<v Speaker 2>solved through D and April filing, it might require the

838
00:43:09.400 --> 00:43:13.000
<v Speaker 2>right person coming forward with information. So if you happen

839
00:43:13.079 --> 00:43:15.880
<v Speaker 2>to know anything about the unsolved murder of Krena Holmer,

840
00:43:16.199 --> 00:43:20.400
<v Speaker 2>please contact the Boston Police Department Unsolved Homicide Unit at

841
00:43:20.400 --> 00:43:23.960
<v Speaker 2>six one seven three four three four four seven zero.

842
00:43:24.079 --> 00:43:27.440
<v Speaker 2>That's six one seven three four three four four seven zero.

843
00:43:28.000 --> 00:43:30.679
<v Speaker 2>Or if you want to send any tips anonymously, please

844
00:43:30.719 --> 00:43:33.480
<v Speaker 2>call the Crime Stoppers tip line at one eight hundred

845
00:43:33.679 --> 00:43:37.079
<v Speaker 2>four nine four tips. That's one eight hundred four nine

846
00:43:37.119 --> 00:43:41.360
<v Speaker 2>four eight four seven seven Jules Ashley, any final thoughts

847
00:43:41.360 --> 00:43:41.960
<v Speaker 2>in this case?

848
00:43:42.880 --> 00:43:44.840
<v Speaker 3>You know, for me, the hardest part about this one

849
00:43:44.880 --> 00:43:47.239
<v Speaker 3>is that her family was not here. They were not

850
00:43:47.440 --> 00:43:50.320
<v Speaker 3>able to really get a glimpse of her life here.

851
00:43:50.159 --> 00:43:51.199
<v Speaker 4>In the United States.

852
00:43:51.480 --> 00:43:54.360
<v Speaker 3>They weren't able to understand the people she was hanging

853
00:43:54.400 --> 00:43:56.639
<v Speaker 3>out with. And then they have no idea how the

854
00:43:56.639 --> 00:43:59.679
<v Speaker 3>investigation's going, right, Who's this family she was with, Who's

855
00:43:59.800 --> 00:44:02.599
<v Speaker 3>the people she was hanging around, what happened to her?

856
00:44:02.760 --> 00:44:05.440
<v Speaker 3>When they're processing the scene and when they're handling her

857
00:44:05.480 --> 00:44:08.480
<v Speaker 3>body and all of these things, that's just they're so

858
00:44:08.880 --> 00:44:12.840
<v Speaker 3>removed from it that has to definitely emphasize the grief

859
00:44:12.920 --> 00:44:17.119
<v Speaker 3>and complicate the grief. You know, I wonder if they

860
00:44:17.400 --> 00:44:19.880
<v Speaker 3>have guilt of saying, listen, we let her go try

861
00:44:19.880 --> 00:44:22.400
<v Speaker 3>this new adventure, when really they should be so proud

862
00:44:22.480 --> 00:44:25.880
<v Speaker 3>of encouraging her to go pursue a dream in America,

863
00:44:26.079 --> 00:44:27.079
<v Speaker 3>have a new life.

864
00:44:27.159 --> 00:44:28.239
<v Speaker 4>It's just exciting.

865
00:44:28.599 --> 00:44:31.199
<v Speaker 3>And yet I guarantee you there's so much hurt and

866
00:44:31.280 --> 00:44:33.840
<v Speaker 3>pain of saying, like, we sent her there, we let

867
00:44:33.880 --> 00:44:36.119
<v Speaker 3>her go. It's like a parent sending their kid to college, right,

868
00:44:36.159 --> 00:44:38.880
<v Speaker 3>and something happens, and so my heart really goes out

869
00:44:38.920 --> 00:44:42.239
<v Speaker 3>to them of saying, look, not only did you lose

870
00:44:42.239 --> 00:44:44.920
<v Speaker 3>your daughter, but you lost her in a foreign place

871
00:44:44.960 --> 00:44:47.039
<v Speaker 3>where you didn't have access to It has to be

872
00:44:47.119 --> 00:44:50.960
<v Speaker 3>incredibly devastating. It would be amazing to know what happened here,

873
00:44:51.039 --> 00:44:53.360
<v Speaker 3>not just for the family, but because my god, if

874
00:44:53.360 --> 00:44:56.320
<v Speaker 3>this person has done this before, they do it to Karina,

875
00:44:56.400 --> 00:44:58.280
<v Speaker 3>who's to say that they didn't do it after And

876
00:44:58.320 --> 00:45:01.320
<v Speaker 3>there's other victims as well. This is a very dangerous

877
00:45:01.360 --> 00:45:03.119
<v Speaker 3>person and they need to be caught.

878
00:45:03.800 --> 00:45:07.440
<v Speaker 1>You're so right, ash, and I think that in a

879
00:45:07.480 --> 00:45:10.800
<v Speaker 1>situation where the family is in Sweden, like my heart

880
00:45:10.840 --> 00:45:13.880
<v Speaker 1>goes out to them because I cannot imagine how awful

881
00:45:13.960 --> 00:45:18.000
<v Speaker 1>it must feel to potentially have a language barrier. You're

882
00:45:18.039 --> 00:45:22.039
<v Speaker 1>dealing with another country and you've got questions about the investigation,

883
00:45:22.320 --> 00:45:27.039
<v Speaker 1>but the communication wouldn't flow easily, and you just don't

884
00:45:27.079 --> 00:45:29.360
<v Speaker 1>know if investigators are doing what they need to do

885
00:45:29.400 --> 00:45:34.760
<v Speaker 1>to solve Karina's murder. And that is compounded I think

886
00:45:34.840 --> 00:45:36.880
<v Speaker 1>by the fact that we know that she wrote that letter,

887
00:45:37.320 --> 00:45:40.440
<v Speaker 1>and that letter indicated that something really terrible had happened,

888
00:45:40.800 --> 00:45:44.440
<v Speaker 1>so she wanted to return home early. So for her family,

889
00:45:44.559 --> 00:45:47.159
<v Speaker 1>knowing that she already had active plans to come home

890
00:45:47.239 --> 00:45:50.159
<v Speaker 1>and then this happened, it's just so heartbreaking, Like she

891
00:45:50.280 --> 00:45:52.920
<v Speaker 1>was just out there living her life, meeting other Swedish

892
00:45:52.960 --> 00:45:56.079
<v Speaker 1>opairs and having a good time, which is what a

893
00:45:56.119 --> 00:45:59.000
<v Speaker 1>girl her age should have been doing. This shouldn't have

894
00:45:59.039 --> 00:46:02.679
<v Speaker 1>happened to her, but unfortunately it did. And I think

895
00:46:02.760 --> 00:46:06.679
<v Speaker 1>that the most likely theory in my head is probably

896
00:46:06.719 --> 00:46:09.159
<v Speaker 1>the two guys in the Mitsubishi. It's possible that there

897
00:46:09.159 --> 00:46:12.599
<v Speaker 1>could have been two offenders. I think you're more disarmed

898
00:46:12.639 --> 00:46:15.559
<v Speaker 1>and you're more inclined to get into a vehicle with

899
00:46:15.599 --> 00:46:19.679
<v Speaker 1>more than one person. If it's just one person, you think, okay,

900
00:46:19.679 --> 00:46:21.480
<v Speaker 1>well they could do harm to me. But if there's

901
00:46:21.519 --> 00:46:23.559
<v Speaker 1>two people, you're like, well it has to be safe.

902
00:46:23.599 --> 00:46:26.320
<v Speaker 1>There's more than one person, and like there's safety in numbers,

903
00:46:26.840 --> 00:46:29.920
<v Speaker 1>So I think that she could have very easily voluntarily

904
00:46:29.960 --> 00:46:32.440
<v Speaker 1>got into that vehicle. But I don't think that any

905
00:46:32.480 --> 00:46:35.599
<v Speaker 1>of the suspects in this case really check out. I

906
00:46:35.599 --> 00:46:40.800
<v Speaker 1>think it's possible that Frank could have done something to

907
00:46:41.280 --> 00:46:44.880
<v Speaker 1>Karina allegedly that could have been that terrible thing, but

908
00:46:45.199 --> 00:46:48.039
<v Speaker 1>like as she said earlier in the episode, that wouldn't

909
00:46:48.039 --> 00:46:50.800
<v Speaker 1>necessarily make him a murderer. It looks like he had

910
00:46:50.840 --> 00:46:54.159
<v Speaker 1>a pretty strong alibi, with his family visiting, going to

911
00:46:54.199 --> 00:46:57.239
<v Speaker 1>that drive in, and going to dinner. So I don't

912
00:46:57.280 --> 00:47:00.800
<v Speaker 1>think that he killed Karina because and had mentioned the

913
00:47:00.920 --> 00:47:02.800
<v Speaker 1>like how would he have known that she was there

914
00:47:02.920 --> 00:47:06.079
<v Speaker 1>and like contacted her, and all of these sorts of

915
00:47:06.119 --> 00:47:09.639
<v Speaker 1>details that just don't seem to add up. The police

916
00:47:09.800 --> 00:47:12.400
<v Speaker 1>obviously didn't want to clear anybody. It didn't seem to

917
00:47:12.400 --> 00:47:16.159
<v Speaker 1>publicly name anyone as being cleared or eliminated as a

918
00:47:16.199 --> 00:47:19.119
<v Speaker 1>suspect or a person of interest, so I don't think

919
00:47:19.119 --> 00:47:23.239
<v Speaker 1>we can necessarily read anything into that. It my heart breaks.

920
00:47:23.280 --> 00:47:26.559
<v Speaker 1>This is a really gruesome case, and it makes me

921
00:47:26.599 --> 00:47:29.719
<v Speaker 1>think that this can have been this offender's first kill.

922
00:47:29.960 --> 00:47:34.119
<v Speaker 1>So it's likely that maybe they're in jail for another offense,

923
00:47:34.599 --> 00:47:38.280
<v Speaker 1>or they've gotten away with it and they've just switched up.

924
00:47:38.159 --> 00:47:42.079
<v Speaker 2>Their mo Yeah, I'm glad you mentioned Karina's family, because

925
00:47:42.280 --> 00:47:44.280
<v Speaker 2>this is one case where you have not seen the

926
00:47:44.360 --> 00:47:47.440
<v Speaker 2>victim's family in the spotlight too much doing interviews. But

927
00:47:47.519 --> 00:47:49.800
<v Speaker 2>that just isn't their fault, because they are from a

928
00:47:49.840 --> 00:47:52.320
<v Speaker 2>small town in Sweden, and they, for all we know,

929
00:47:52.519 --> 00:47:55.199
<v Speaker 2>just cannot afford to keep going back and forth between

930
00:47:55.239 --> 00:47:57.519
<v Speaker 2>there and the United States to keep tabs on the

931
00:47:57.559 --> 00:48:01.079
<v Speaker 2>investigation and spread awareness about the case and do stuff

932
00:48:01.159 --> 00:48:04.039
<v Speaker 2>like hand out flyers. So they've pretty much been able

933
00:48:04.039 --> 00:48:06.440
<v Speaker 2>to unable to do anything but just sit back and

934
00:48:06.480 --> 00:48:09.320
<v Speaker 2>wait and hope that the police find the killer. And

935
00:48:10.199 --> 00:48:12.599
<v Speaker 2>I know when they sent to Karina on there, I'm

936
00:48:12.599 --> 00:48:15.039
<v Speaker 2>sure they never imagined that she would become a victim

937
00:48:15.199 --> 00:48:18.239
<v Speaker 2>just like Elizabeth Short the Black Dahlia, and that the

938
00:48:18.280 --> 00:48:21.719
<v Speaker 2>crime would remain unsolved for nearly thirty years. And I

939
00:48:21.760 --> 00:48:24.199
<v Speaker 2>do agree that we've had all these suspects, I don't

940
00:48:24.199 --> 00:48:27.119
<v Speaker 2>think any of them are particularly compelling. I do think

941
00:48:27.159 --> 00:48:30.559
<v Speaker 2>it's possible that Frank Rapp may have done something inappropriate

942
00:48:30.599 --> 00:48:32.960
<v Speaker 2>with Karna and may know more than he's leting on

943
00:48:33.519 --> 00:48:35.960
<v Speaker 2>and that this could be the source of Karna's letter.

944
00:48:36.360 --> 00:48:38.559
<v Speaker 2>But it's also possible that all this stuff is just

945
00:48:38.599 --> 00:48:41.719
<v Speaker 2>a red herring and she just cross passed with the

946
00:48:41.719 --> 00:48:44.199
<v Speaker 2>wrong person at the nightclub that night, someone she had

947
00:48:44.280 --> 00:48:47.559
<v Speaker 2>never encountered before in her life, and unfortunately she wound

948
00:48:47.679 --> 00:48:49.719
<v Speaker 2>up leaving with them and was murdered in such a

949
00:48:49.719 --> 00:48:52.840
<v Speaker 2>brutal fashion. Do agree that if you were to pick

950
00:48:52.880 --> 00:48:55.760
<v Speaker 2>anyone those two men in the Mitsubi, she do seem

951
00:48:55.800 --> 00:48:58.079
<v Speaker 2>like the most promising suspects. But of course the big

952
00:48:58.119 --> 00:49:01.599
<v Speaker 2>issue is that we just cannot firm they existed. We

953
00:49:01.679 --> 00:49:04.920
<v Speaker 2>only have one eyewitness who recalled seeing them, so there

954
00:49:04.920 --> 00:49:07.400
<v Speaker 2>really isn't a lot to work with. But I am

955
00:49:07.440 --> 00:49:09.679
<v Speaker 2>intrigued by the theory that was pushed forward that these

956
00:49:10.239 --> 00:49:13.360
<v Speaker 2>men may not have been just serial killers. They may

957
00:49:13.400 --> 00:49:16.039
<v Speaker 2>have just gone too far with Korena and decided that

958
00:49:16.159 --> 00:49:18.719
<v Speaker 2>the best way to get rid of the physical evidence

959
00:49:18.920 --> 00:49:21.800
<v Speaker 2>and to get rid of DNA would be to cut

960
00:49:21.800 --> 00:49:23.760
<v Speaker 2>her body in half and get rid of the lower

961
00:49:23.840 --> 00:49:27.119
<v Speaker 2>torso so that it is never found. And that this

962
00:49:27.280 --> 00:49:29.840
<v Speaker 2>wasn't done just because they get off on killing. They

963
00:49:29.880 --> 00:49:32.079
<v Speaker 2>just did it to cover themselves. And then just went

964
00:49:32.119 --> 00:49:35.039
<v Speaker 2>on living their normal lives. Again, we just don't know,

965
00:49:35.280 --> 00:49:37.519
<v Speaker 2>but it's just hard to imagine that someone who would

966
00:49:37.559 --> 00:49:40.800
<v Speaker 2>be capable of something like this could just not commit

967
00:49:40.880 --> 00:49:43.360
<v Speaker 2>any more crimes. So yeah, even though we don't have

968
00:49:43.400 --> 00:49:46.079
<v Speaker 2>any DNA to work with or physical evidence, I do

969
00:49:46.159 --> 00:49:48.599
<v Speaker 2>hope someday they have a major break in this case

970
00:49:48.639 --> 00:49:50.519
<v Speaker 2>and we can find out who actually did it.

971
00:49:52.159 --> 00:49:53.679
<v Speaker 5>Robin, do you want to tell us a little bit

972
00:49:53.679 --> 00:49:55.159
<v Speaker 5>about the Trail Went Cold Patreon?

973
00:49:55.920 --> 00:49:58.239
<v Speaker 2>Yes. The Trail Cold Patreon has been around for three

974
00:49:58.320 --> 00:50:01.960
<v Speaker 2>years now, and we offer these stand and bonus features

975
00:50:02.000 --> 00:50:04.760
<v Speaker 2>like early ad free episodes, and I also send out

976
00:50:05.000 --> 00:50:08.239
<v Speaker 2>stickers and sign thank you cards to anyone who signs

977
00:50:08.320 --> 00:50:10.639
<v Speaker 2>up with us on Patreon. If you join our five

978
00:50:10.679 --> 00:50:15.039
<v Speaker 2>dollars tier Tier two, we also offer monthly bonus episodes

979
00:50:15.039 --> 00:50:18.199
<v Speaker 2>in which I talk about cases which are not featured

980
00:50:18.239 --> 00:50:21.079
<v Speaker 2>on the Trail Went Cold's original feed, so they're exclusive

981
00:50:21.079 --> 00:50:24.280
<v Speaker 2>to Patreon, and if you join our highest tier tier three,

982
00:50:24.400 --> 00:50:27.119
<v Speaker 2>the ten dollars tier. One of the features we offer

983
00:50:27.360 --> 00:50:31.800
<v Speaker 2>is a audio commentary track over classic episodes of Unsawved Mysteries,

984
00:50:32.039 --> 00:50:35.039
<v Speaker 2>where you can download an audio file and then boot

985
00:50:35.119 --> 00:50:38.320
<v Speaker 2>up the original Unsoalved Mysteries episode on Amazon Prime or

986
00:50:38.360 --> 00:50:41.719
<v Speaker 2>YouTube and play it with my audio commentary playing in

987
00:50:41.760 --> 00:50:44.880
<v Speaker 2>the background, where I just provide trivia and factoids about

988
00:50:44.880 --> 00:50:48.320
<v Speaker 2>the cases featured in this episode. And incidentally, the very

989
00:50:48.360 --> 00:50:51.199
<v Speaker 2>first episode that I did a commentary track over was

990
00:50:51.239 --> 00:50:54.000
<v Speaker 2>the episode featuring this case. So if you want to

991
00:50:54.039 --> 00:50:56.760
<v Speaker 2>download a commentary track in which I make more smart

992
00:50:56.760 --> 00:50:59.760
<v Speaker 2>ass remarks about Jewel Kaylor, then be sure to join

993
00:50:59.760 --> 00:51:00.599
<v Speaker 2>tear three.

994
00:51:00.800 --> 00:51:02.280
<v Speaker 5>So I want to let you know a little bit

995
00:51:02.360 --> 00:51:05.280
<v Speaker 5>about the Jules and Ashley patreons. So there's early ad

996
00:51:05.320 --> 00:51:08.199
<v Speaker 5>free episodes of The Path Went Chili. We've got our

997
00:51:08.239 --> 00:51:11.239
<v Speaker 5>Pathwent Chili mini's, which are always over an hour, so

998
00:51:11.280 --> 00:51:13.400
<v Speaker 5>they're not very mini, but they're just too short to

999
00:51:13.440 --> 00:51:16.320
<v Speaker 5>turn into a series, and we're really enjoying doing those.

1000
00:51:16.440 --> 00:51:18.559
<v Speaker 5>So we hope you'll check out those patreons.

1001
00:51:18.559 --> 00:51:20.079
<v Speaker 1>We'll link them in the show notes.

1002
00:51:20.559 --> 00:51:22.480
<v Speaker 2>So I want to thank you all for listening, and

1003
00:51:22.599 --> 00:51:24.960
<v Speaker 2>any chance you have to share us on social media

1004
00:51:25.000 --> 00:51:27.360
<v Speaker 2>with a friend or to rate and review is greatly

1005
00:51:27.360 --> 00:51:30.119
<v Speaker 2>appreciate it. You can email us at The Pathwentchili at

1006
00:51:30.159 --> 00:51:32.920
<v Speaker 2>gmail dot com. You can reach us on Twitter at

1007
00:51:33.039 --> 00:51:36.000
<v Speaker 2>the Pathwin So until next time, be sure to bundle up,

1008
00:51:36.119 --> 00:51:39.320
<v Speaker 2>because cold trails and chili pass call for warm clothing.

1009
00:51:39.559 --> 00:51:42.679
<v Speaker 1>Music by Paul Rich from the podcast Cold Callers comedy