Speaker 1: Welcome back to the Path Went Chile for part two
Speaker 1: of our series about the murder of Karina Holmer. Robin,
Speaker 1: do you want to catch everyone up of what we
Speaker 1: talked about in our previous episode?
Speaker 2: Well, this particular crime took place in Boston in June
Speaker 2: of nineteen ninety six. Karina Holmer was a twenty year
Speaker 2: old from Sweden who decided that she wanted to live
Speaker 2: in the United States for a while, working as an
Speaker 2: o pair for a family living in the Boston suburb
Speaker 2: of Dover who had two children. Their names were Frank
Speaker 2: Rapp and Susan Nickter. She would live in a loft
Speaker 2: on the weekend with the family during the week and
Speaker 2: one Friday night, she decided to go out to a
Speaker 2: club with some friends called the Zanzibar, but then she
Speaker 2: just seemed to disappear. None of her friends actually saw
Speaker 2: her leave, and about thirty six hours later they would
Speaker 2: find the top half of her torso inside a trash
Speaker 2: bag and a dumpster located a couple miles away, and
Speaker 2: it turned out that she even sliced half right at
Speaker 2: the wrist that whoever did it went right through their spine,
Speaker 2: but the lower half of her body was never found,
Speaker 2: and it turned out that her exact cause of death
Speaker 2: was strangulation. Frustratingly, we had so many different conflicting eyewitness
Speaker 2: accounts from the nightclub that no one could figure out
Speaker 2: the circumstances of how and when Karina left. It did
Speaker 2: sound like that she was heavily intoxicated, and the boyfriend
Speaker 2: of one of her friends she went with said that
Speaker 2: they saw her leaving in a Mitsubishi with two very
Speaker 2: aggressive guys who told him to back off, but no
Speaker 2: other witnesses could corroborate a story. There are other witnesses
Speaker 2: who saw with a panhandler on the alley named Juan Polo,
Speaker 2: who did have a history of being accused of being
Speaker 2: involved in a gang rape and whose ex girlfriend was
Speaker 2: murdered under strange circumstances, but they weren't able to find
Speaker 2: any evidence against him. She had also been seen talking
Speaker 2: with a man named Herb Witten, who would shoe up
Speaker 2: outside these clubs with his large job, both stressed up
Speaker 2: in Superman costumes, but they couldn't find any evidence against
Speaker 2: him either, and a couple months after that he died
Speaker 2: after slitting his own throat. Because he had a history
Speaker 2: of depression, and mental health issues, and it's been suspected
Speaker 2: that being a potential suspect in a murder might have
Speaker 2: been his breaking point. They looked at a couple other suspects,
Speaker 2: a death metal singer named John's Whiz, though there really
Speaker 2: wasn't anything to connect him at all. All they found
Speaker 2: were some human bones inside his residence, but and he
Speaker 2: lived near the dumpster where Karina was found, but otherwise
Speaker 2: there was nothing else on him. A couple months after
Speaker 2: Karina was murdered, there was a real estate broker named
Speaker 2: Gregory Hummel who picked up a woman from the same
Speaker 2: sands of our nightclub, took her back to his apartment
Speaker 2: and attempted to sexually assault her before she contacted the police.
Speaker 2: But otherwise they found no evidence against him either, and
Speaker 2: the case has pretty much been unsolved for nearly thirty years.
Speaker 2: They've even looked at her family, Frank Rapp and Susan Nicker,
Speaker 2: but there's no evidence against them either. So we've had
Speaker 2: all these potential suspects but no evidence against any of them,
Speaker 2: and the case continues to remain unsolved all these years later.
Speaker 1: Well about four and a half years ago. On episode
Speaker 1: two twelve of the Trail went Cold. Robin covered another
Speaker 1: cold case involving young female Swedish victims, and that was
Speaker 1: the unsolved murders of Marie Lillienberg and Maria Vilen, who
Speaker 1: were both killed while hitchhiking together through California in July
Speaker 1: of nineteen eighty three. Like Karina, the two women left
Speaker 1: their native Sweden in order to spend some time living
Speaker 1: and working in the United States, but wound up being
Speaker 1: murdered before they can return home. I see no reason
Speaker 1: to believe that there are any connection between the two cases,
Speaker 1: but these stories are truly nightmarish situations for the victims' families.
Speaker 1: How can you keep up with the investigation and spread
Speaker 1: awareness about the case when you live on an entirely
Speaker 1: different continent located thousands of miles away. Karina hailed from
Speaker 1: a small village with a population of less than one hundred,
Speaker 1: and I'm not sure if her family has ever traveled
Speaker 1: to the United States to meet with the investigators on
Speaker 1: her case. They're pretty much in a position where they
Speaker 1: can do nothing but wait, and they haven't received any
Speaker 1: answers in nearly thirty years. I'm sure the situation is
Speaker 1: particularly haunting because Karina had been planning to return to
Speaker 1: Sweden earlier than usual because she was unhappy with her situation,
Speaker 1: and sent that cryptic letter to one of her best
Speaker 1: friends which she stated that quote, something terrible had happened,
Speaker 1: but she would not provide any further details until she
Speaker 1: arrived home. So of course you have to wonder if
Speaker 1: this terrible thing she was referring to had any relation
Speaker 1: to her murder. This is a case where a number
Speaker 1: of individuals had been looked at as possible suspects, but
Speaker 1: there's no real evidence pointing towards any of them, So,
Speaker 1: for all we know, perhaps Koreenan was murdered by someone
Speaker 1: who has yet to pop up on the radar. It
Speaker 1: seems like there are an awful lot of weird coincidences
Speaker 1: in this story which have led the investigation in unexpected directions.
Speaker 1: For instance, you might be familiar with the story of
Speaker 1: Rafi Kodikian and David Coughlin, two friends from Boston who
Speaker 1: went on a hike in New Mexico's Carlsbad Caverns National
Speaker 1: Park in August of nineteen ninety nine. They wound up
Speaker 1: getting lost, and by the time they were found Kodikian
Speaker 1: had stabbed Coughlin to death in what he described as
Speaker 1: a mercy killing, since his friend was badly dehydrated and
Speaker 1: suffering so much. Nevertheless, Kodikian was still charged with second
Speaker 1: degree murder and served sixteen months in prison. Well, believe
Speaker 1: it or not, the reason this story got linked to
Speaker 1: Karina's case is because Rafi Kodikian just happened to live
Speaker 1: in the same apartment building next to the dumpster where
Speaker 1: Karina's body was found. He was even briefly questioned by
Speaker 1: police at the time, who were performing routine canvassing of
Speaker 1: the building's residents. Of course, when Kudaiki Ain't got charged
Speaker 1: with another murder three years later, investigators checked into any
Speaker 1: possible link with Karina's case, but the whole thing turned
Speaker 1: out to be nothing more than a coincidence.
Speaker 3: So interesting, I'd love to know more about that case
Speaker 3: where he still got charged with second degree murder. I
Speaker 3: wonder if you know, I don't know. I guess that
Speaker 3: you said he should have been helping more with his friend,
Speaker 3: who's I'm assuming dying in while they're not being found.
Speaker 3: But regardless, it's so bizarre that he's actually near her
Speaker 3: apartment right, he lives in that same apartment complex. Yet
Speaker 3: I highly doubt there's any kind of crossover there. There
Speaker 3: are two very different scenarios. The reality is is you
Speaker 3: have a tragedy that happens to live near a tragedy,
Speaker 3: and so I think that's the only thing that really
Speaker 3: seems to tie those two together.
Speaker 2: So before we talk about possible suspects, we have to
Speaker 2: look at the circumstances of how Karina went missing before
Speaker 2: she was killed. We know that she was parting with
Speaker 2: friends at the Zansobar nightclub and apparently became quite intoxicated
Speaker 2: before she got separated from them, and her body was
Speaker 2: subsequently found in a dumpster thirty six hours later. Since
Speaker 2: the medical examiner believed that Karina was alive for at
Speaker 2: least twenty four hours after she was last seen, this
Speaker 2: might indicate that she was held in captivity for a
Speaker 2: prolonged period of time, possibly even tortured before she was killed.
Speaker 2: But if so, who was responsible and how did Karna
Speaker 2: cross paths with the perpetrator? Well? One of the most
Speaker 2: frustrating elements of this investigation is that we have a
Speaker 2: number of conflicting stories about how Karina left the nightclub.
Speaker 2: Some of them placed her walking away from the club
Speaker 2: down the street, but the version that is quite different
Speaker 2: from the others involves Karina climbing into a gray Mitsubishi
Speaker 2: with two unidentified men who yelled profanities at the boyfriend
Speaker 2: of one of Karina's friends. If this account is accurate,
Speaker 2: then this suggests that multiple people were involved in the murder,
Speaker 2: but I find it odd that there don't seem to
Speaker 2: be any other witness who could corroborate this guy's story.
Speaker 2: That's not to say that I completely discouted, as Karina
Speaker 2: had apparently told one of her friends that she was
Speaker 2: planning to go to an after hours party with an
Speaker 2: older man, so for all we know, one of the
Speaker 2: two individuals inside the car might have been him. Given
Speaker 2: Karina as a depriated state, I can definitely see a
Speaker 2: situation where a group of men drove her somewhere to
Speaker 2: take advantage of her. But how do things escalate to
Speaker 2: the point where these predators sliced her entire body in half.
Speaker 2: I'm not sure if investigators placed much credence into the
Speaker 2: witness's story because even though he supposedly came face to
Speaker 2: face with two men who may have been complicit in
Speaker 2: Karina's murder. The authorities had never released detailed descriptions or
Speaker 2: composite sketches for these guys. But further complicates this situation
Speaker 2: is that there were reported sightings of Karina at a
Speaker 2: twenty four hour convenience store in the Back Bay neighborhood
Speaker 2: between three thirty and four thirty am, which would have
Speaker 2: been about an hour or two after she left the club. Yes,
Speaker 2: eyewitness is a missing person's cases are often mistaken. But
Speaker 2: since the store was located only a block from the
Speaker 2: dumpster where Karina was found, I guess you can't discout
Speaker 2: the idea that Karina walked to this neighborhood on her own.
Speaker 2: But the issue is that the lot where Karina was
Speaker 2: staying was located in the Fort Point neighborhood in the
Speaker 2: complete opposite direction. So why would Karreina be frequenting a
Speaker 2: store in this particular area.
Speaker 3: And I'm assuming we had no cameras right at that
Speaker 3: convenience store.
Speaker 2: No, we didn't know, Okay.
Speaker 3: So that's difficult because we've all we've all know about
Speaker 3: eyewitness identification and people thinking they saw someone, especially after
Speaker 3: they become a.
Speaker 4: News newsworthy individual.
Speaker 3: But let's go back to these two guys that are
Speaker 3: in the car. One this friend is describing these two
Speaker 3: guys getting into a Minsubishi with her being aggressive with him.
Speaker 3: Is it possible there's no composite release because he's honest
Speaker 3: and he's like, look, I was so drunk. I don't
Speaker 3: know what these guys look like. I was frustrated that
Speaker 3: they were being jerks. I stumbled back into the bar.
Speaker 3: But I'm very confident that there was two men in
Speaker 3: a Mitsubishi, and that's about all I can remember. That's
Speaker 3: a possible reason why you don't see composites. Also, it's
Speaker 3: possible that these two guys really did take her back
Speaker 3: and even together took advantage of her. But one left,
Speaker 3: and if she was kept alive for another, you know,
Speaker 3: several hours or a whole nother day, it's possible she
Speaker 3: was only with one of those individuals in maybe the
Speaker 3: apartment or home where she was taken. Let's say the
Speaker 3: other person had to return home, had to go to work,
Speaker 3: had to go back to their family. The actual killer
Speaker 3: might have done it solo and simply taken advantage of
Speaker 3: an intoxicated woman with his buddy. And then it turned
Speaker 3: sinister after the friend left.
Speaker 2: That is possible. I mean, I would like to think
Speaker 2: that the friend would come forward if he suspected, if
Speaker 2: he found out that this woman was killed after he
Speaker 2: was seen with a man he knew. But if it's
Speaker 2: a case where he did something wrong, like took advantage
Speaker 2: of Krena, then he would have his own reasons for
Speaker 2: not wanting to come forward. And that's why I do
Speaker 2: still think, like I said, that the scene of her
Speaker 2: leading with these two guys and things going horribly wrong
Speaker 2: does make sense. But it's just so frustrating to me
Speaker 2: that there is just no one else who can say that, yeah,
Speaker 2: I saw this Mitsubishi, and I saw these two guys
Speaker 2: with Karina.
Speaker 1: So let's start going through our gallery of potential suspects.
Speaker 1: It's been reported that Karina was dating a Boston police
Speaker 1: officer at the time of her murder, but this person's
Speaker 1: name has never been released publicly and we know nothing
Speaker 1: about his background. All we know is that he had
Speaker 1: an alibi and was never considered to be a suspect.
Speaker 1: But of course, online discussions about this case have pushed
Speaker 1: forward conspiracy theories about the reason the murder is still
Speaker 1: unsolved is because a police cover up took place in
Speaker 1: order to protect this man. Well, even though there was
Speaker 1: definitely serious issues with corruption in the Boston Police Department
Speaker 1: during the nineteen nineties, there is no evidence at all
Speaker 1: to support the cover up theory, and I'd like to
Speaker 1: think that most cops would draw the line at protecting
Speaker 1: a fellow officer who dismembered his girlfriend by literally slicing
Speaker 1: her body in half. With the limited information that we
Speaker 1: have about this policeman, I really have no reason to
Speaker 1: believe that he's the killer. And I feel the same
Speaker 1: way about John z a Whiz, who's link to this
Speaker 1: case is tenuous, to say the least. I'm not familiar
Speaker 1: with Zowiz's work, but he is a prominent enough figure
Speaker 1: on the industrial music scene that he has his own
Speaker 1: Wikipedia page. The only reason he even appeared on the
Speaker 1: radar is because he lived a few blocks away from
Speaker 1: the location where Karina's body was found, and he had
Speaker 1: enough weird memorabilia in his apartment and bizarre aspects of
Speaker 1: his musical act that some people thought that he might
Speaker 1: be capable of murder. But Zuwiz almost sounds like he
Speaker 1: was a victim of Satanic panic to me. He claimed
Speaker 1: that when police started interviewing him about the murders, they
Speaker 1: asked him questions like do you worship the devil? Of course,
Speaker 1: nothing was found to implicate Zowiz in the crime, but
Speaker 1: even though his band's Sleep Chamber was reasonably popular at
Speaker 1: the time, it sounds like the combination of Zuiz's heroin
Speaker 1: addiction in him being looked at as a potential suspect
Speaker 1: and a murder caused a major downward spiral for the band,
Speaker 1: and they wound up going on hiatus for several years.
Speaker 1: Zuiz was able to overcome his addiction issues and is
Speaker 1: still alive today, and you can actually find an interview
Speaker 1: with him on YouTube from two thousand and nine where
Speaker 1: he talks about his connection to this crime. Oddly enough,
Speaker 1: Zuiz states during the interview that Karina's boss was the
Speaker 1: one who actually murdered her. But this is not accurate
Speaker 1: at all, since no one has ever been charged with
Speaker 1: the crime and there's no more evidence against Frank Rap
Speaker 1: than any of the other potential suspects.
Speaker 3: Was he still an addict when he made that recording,
Speaker 3: because it's not like he said, you know, in my
Speaker 3: personal opinion, this is why I think I was suspected,
Speaker 3: and then this is who I believe would have had
Speaker 3: a bigger reason to do it or you know, but
Speaker 3: it sounds like he was almost off the cuff, like
Speaker 3: I know exactly who did it. It's Frank rap and
Speaker 3: almost that he's, you know, someone with a mental health
Speaker 3: issue or a substance abuse issue at the time, and
Speaker 3: then now is sober.
Speaker 2: I think he was clean by two thousand and nine
Speaker 2: when he did that interview. I remember seeing it, so
Speaker 2: he was going through a lot of disorders back in
Speaker 2: the nineties, but I think he was fine by the
Speaker 2: time he did the interview. And it sounds like he
Speaker 2: never specifically said Frank Rapp's name. He just says, oh, yeah,
Speaker 2: I was implicated in a murderer, but it turned out
Speaker 2: the woman's boss was the one who killed her. So
Speaker 2: I'm guessing maybe he's just misremembering or something he or
Speaker 2: got it crossed up with another case. But obviously we
Speaker 2: don't know who actually murdered her.
Speaker 1: It's a pretty bold thing to say, like that could
Speaker 1: be considered libelous because it's pretty easy to look up
Speaker 1: who her boss was at that time.
Speaker 3: Yeah, exactly, Yeah, and or like Robin said, yeah, and
Speaker 3: or like Robin said, it could also be the way
Speaker 3: he said it. I mean, if reading it's hard, you know,
Speaker 3: but if he did it more like Robin said, like, oh, yeah,
Speaker 3: you know I was suspected this is the guy who
Speaker 3: actually got arrested for doing it. Maybe he really thought that, yeah,
Speaker 3: in his memory he remembered someone being charged with the crime.
Speaker 3: But when you go back to to the boyfriend, I
Speaker 3: can't imagine. And yes there's corruption, Yes, maybe someone's assaulted
Speaker 3: and you hide it. Yes, maybe you know you have
Speaker 3: some really corrupt officers who would hide a murder. But
Speaker 3: by the time your partner in crime, who's supposed to
Speaker 3: be having your back, right, your police officer partner is
Speaker 3: cutting women in half and brutally, you know, committing a
Speaker 3: crime of this nature, doesn't it make you scared to
Speaker 3: serve next to him, Like if he can do that
Speaker 3: to her, what could he do to us?
Speaker 4: Because this is a whole nother level.
Speaker 3: So I'm with you guys, where I think there would
Speaker 3: have been a line drawn there. I don't know that
Speaker 3: I would have covered up for something this horrific, even
Speaker 3: if I was part of a dysfunctional department. And so
Speaker 3: I think the boyfriend's got to be let off the hook,
Speaker 3: And I agree there's more of that satanic panic with
Speaker 3: Zo Whiz.
Speaker 4: I don't believe that he.
Speaker 3: Had anything to do with it, just a suspicious person
Speaker 3: because he was quote different and dark and disturbed at
Speaker 3: the time. He was sick and so once he's sober,
Speaker 3: I think maybe he's misremembering it.
Speaker 4: It sounds like the way and said it, he.
Speaker 3: Almost thought he remembered the case being cleared with the
Speaker 3: boss at the helm of it.
Speaker 2: That's what I'm thinking as well. Though I've always wondered
Speaker 2: if he's ever going to get a cease and desister
Speaker 2: order from Frank Rapp to pull down that YouTube video.
Speaker 3: Yeah, I'd love to watch it and see the tone
Speaker 3: because if he accuses him, I would Jules, you might
Speaker 3: be facing a lawsuit.
Speaker 1: And Ashally, maybe you can speak to this because you
Speaker 1: understand a lot more about police departments and like institutions
Speaker 1: in general. But I know within corrupt police institutions and
Speaker 1: just within police departments as a whole, there tends to
Speaker 1: be a bit of a domestic violence blind spot. And
Speaker 1: I know they've done a lot of departments have done
Speaker 1: a lot of work to bring themselves forward so that
Speaker 1: you don't have police responding to calls where there's domestic
Speaker 1: violence which includes a cop and then them not taking
Speaker 1: a report or not reporting it. But I would think
Speaker 1: in this case, if one of their fellow officers girlfriends
Speaker 1: was murdered, that they would draw the line with not
Speaker 1: only just a not only a murder, but a murder
Speaker 1: in which her body was bisected and half of it
Speaker 1: was never found. I would think most people at that
Speaker 1: point would throw up their hands and go, Okay, you
Speaker 1: know there is a brotherhood here, but like this is
Speaker 1: where it stops.
Speaker 3: Yeah, I absolutely think so. I think when you think
Speaker 3: about someone who literally becomes like a brother or sister
Speaker 3: because they are putting themselves at risk every day with you,
Speaker 3: and because people do create an air where it's normal
Speaker 3: to be almost corrupt. If your department is right, young
Speaker 3: rookies come in, they aren't corrupt, the people training them
Speaker 3: might be, and therefore corruption becomes not abnormal, and it's
Speaker 3: not even it's like an abusive home right where you
Speaker 3: go like, oh the abuse is so normal, Like okay,
Speaker 3: we're all kind of part of it, and we're all living.
Speaker 4: In this dysfunction.
Speaker 3: And so some of it isn't even conscious that the
Speaker 3: dysfunction that occurs in some kinds of police departments and institutions.
Speaker 3: But you also do have that issue with domestic violence, right.
Speaker 3: There's high rates of divorce and abuse and things like
Speaker 3: that in high stress careers, and law.
Speaker 4: Enforcement is one of them.
Speaker 3: And so I think if you had a dysfunctional group
Speaker 3: of officers. Let's say a boyfriend girlfriend fuss all the time.
Speaker 4: We already know they.
Speaker 3: Have issues, and let's say she dies and the buddies like, hey, listen, man,
Speaker 3: you know we got a fight. She died, I could
Speaker 3: see corruption occurring there because they're all like, oh, man,
Speaker 3: been there, done that, been in awful fights with my wife,
Speaker 3: things like that.
Speaker 4: Not okay, really sick.
Speaker 3: However, again, when you look at this crime, it is
Speaker 3: not just an accident that occurred and nine when one
Speaker 3: was called, or you know they're covering.
Speaker 4: Oh, this is a suicide in set of a murder.
Speaker 4: It's none of that kind of corruption.
Speaker 3: This is a body is found almost discarded like an
Speaker 3: animal would be cut in and half of her body
Speaker 3: is missing, and it's so precise, it's so thought out.
Speaker 3: I would never want to serve next to a person.
Speaker 4: Like that, especially with a weapon.
Speaker 3: So I can't imagine another officer saying I get it, man,
Speaker 3: I understand, I'm going to cover for you. I think
Speaker 3: they'd be scared to work alongside him.
Speaker 1: At least one officer would have cracked if that were
Speaker 1: the case, if they suspected him of doing it.
Speaker 3: Oh yeah, oh yeah. There would have been ia all
Speaker 3: over that. At least one person would have come forward
Speaker 3: and like, look, I can't even stand for that, right.
Speaker 2: So I guess now would be a good time to
Speaker 2: discuss Frank and his wife, Susan Niictor, who employed Karina
Speaker 2: as an o pair at the time, And even though
Speaker 2: they never been named as suspects or persons of interest,
Speaker 2: you'll still find people direct suspicion towards them during online
Speaker 2: discussions about this case. Obviously, one of the biggest unanswered
Speaker 2: questions is the cryptic letter Karina sent to her friend
Speaker 2: in Sweden, in which she wrote quote something terrible has happened.
Speaker 2: And other letters to her family, Karina had expressed unhappiness
Speaker 2: with her own pairent job, mostly because of the workload
Speaker 2: it required, and seemed anxious to return home earlier than planned.
Speaker 2: But this particular letter suggested that something much darker was
Speaker 2: taking place. While Frank and Susan always maintained that they
Speaker 2: didn't notice anything to suggest Karina was unhappy, some online
Speaker 2: slusive speculated that the terrible thing Karna referred to might
Speaker 2: have been Frank taking advantage of her. In fact, one
Speaker 2: prominent theory the reason Karina's body was sliced in half
Speaker 2: was to cover up the fact that she was pregnant.
Speaker 2: This wouldn't necessarily mean that Frank was the culprit, as
Speaker 2: a completely different person could have gotten Karina pregnant. If so,
Speaker 2: this would mean the crime was much more personal, rather
Speaker 2: than Karina being murdered by a random stranger she encountered
Speaker 2: on the night she went out party. However, I can't
Speaker 2: say I've ever put much stock into this theory, because
Speaker 2: even if a fetus had been removed from Karina's womb,
Speaker 2: I'd like to think that there still would have been
Speaker 2: medical evidence to indicate if she had been pregnant at
Speaker 2: some point. After all, even though Karina had been sliced
Speaker 2: in half at the waist on the lower half of
Speaker 2: her boy, he was missing her torso was still intact.
Speaker 2: But getting back to Frank, rapp I guess one of
Speaker 2: the main reasons people have speculated that something may have
Speaker 2: been going on with him and Karina is because he
Speaker 2: allowed her to spend weekends staying at his photography studio,
Speaker 2: which doubled as aloft, So theoretically, if they were having
Speaker 2: an affair, this would be an ideal place for them
Speaker 2: to carry it out, away from Frank's wife and children.
Speaker 2: It's also worth mentioning that Karina was technically in the
Speaker 2: country illegally while she was working as an all pair,
Speaker 2: as the family had hired her through a rather shady
Speaker 2: Swedish agency which placed o pairs in the US without
Speaker 2: securing them a proper work visa. So if anything inappropriate
Speaker 2: was going on well Karina was employed in that household,
Speaker 2: she wouldn't have much leverage to complain to the authorities
Speaker 2: without fear of being deported. It's also worth mentioning that
Speaker 2: there were past issues in Frank and Susan's marriage, as
Speaker 2: back in January of nineteen ninety one, Frank was actually
Speaker 2: charged with assault and battery against his wife, which prompted
Speaker 2: her to request a temporary restraining order against him. But
Speaker 2: a few months later Susan asked that the charges be
Speaker 2: dropped against Frank, as she claimed his actions were the
Speaker 2: result of issues with alcoholism and he was now undergoing treatment.
Speaker 2: She would later say that the incident was the best
Speaker 2: thing that could have happened to save their marriage, and
Speaker 2: to Frank's credit, I get the impression that he did
Speaker 2: genuinely turn things around. I see no indication that there
Speaker 2: were any more serious issues with the marriage, and if
Speaker 2: you search online, you'll see that Frank and Susan are
Speaker 2: still together to this day.
Speaker 3: Well, okay, let's go back to that a little bit.
Speaker 3: When you see that Frank is arrested for assault on
Speaker 3: his wife and there's assault and battery charges there, and
Speaker 3: then later she drops the charges. This is a very
Speaker 3: common occurrence, right. You have a husband and wife who
Speaker 3: are fighting, and she's scared enough to press charges, and
Speaker 3: then she wants the charges dropped because Frank's a good
Speaker 3: man who happens to get abusive at certain points, and
Speaker 3: there's that psych of violence that occurs where she sees
Speaker 3: her husband as a dual kind of person, right, the
Speaker 3: abuser and the man who's a good father and husband
Speaker 3: and hard worker and things like that. And so when
Speaker 3: you think about that, cycle right where she's walking on eggshells.
Speaker 3: There's an eruption, there's abuse. That's when she needs the police,
Speaker 3: That's when she calls. But then Frank's going to present
Speaker 3: as the other side where he says, I, you know,
Speaker 3: I never meant to do that. I'm so sorry, and
Speaker 3: then she welcomes him back in. That's the father of
Speaker 3: her kids, that's her stability, that's her life. And so
Speaker 3: is Frank a good man?
Speaker 4: I don't know that. I don't know.
Speaker 3: Goodman make mistakes and good men have trauma and issues
Speaker 3: as well. But if Frank was a systematic abuser of
Speaker 3: his wife, she would defend him even if she knew
Speaker 3: something was going on, because.
Speaker 4: She's doing it here.
Speaker 3: If Frank is not a good man, then you might
Speaker 3: see that he could have been doing something like have
Speaker 3: an affair right, be an abuser consistently. But again, that
Speaker 3: doesn't make him a murderer, and that doesn't make him
Speaker 3: a murderer who's going to cut his victim in half
Speaker 3: with precision. It's possible, but they don't equate, right, And
Speaker 3: I think it's important to say that you can have
Speaker 3: someone who makes really poor decisions or someone who's fueled
Speaker 3: with a mental health issue or trauma and acts out.
Speaker 4: In a dangerous way, But it doesn't make them a killer.
Speaker 3: So motive, yes, especially if he's having an affair, especially
Speaker 3: if things are going wrong, especially if he's worried about
Speaker 3: getting caught up in some legal issues because of having
Speaker 3: this illegal individual at his home who knows but doesn't equate.
Speaker 3: Definitely a problem with the way Susan and him have
Speaker 3: their marriage, but that doesn't make him a killer.
Speaker 1: Even if they were having an affair. He had an alibi,
Speaker 1: and like, what are the chances that he would be
Speaker 1: able to somehow shirk that alibi and then find another
Speaker 1: location in order to do this to her body. I
Speaker 1: don't believe the pregnancy thing either, because if you were
Speaker 1: going to bisect a body to pregnancy, I don't think
Speaker 1: that you would necessarily you would know, you there would
Speaker 1: be some clues left. I would think because her upper
Speaker 1: body was found, which would included her torso, So I
Speaker 1: would think that you would like trisect the body, right,
Speaker 1: maybe take off the upper body and then take off
Speaker 1: the torso, which would be the part that would be
Speaker 1: the most sensitive, and get.
Speaker 4: Rid of it.
Speaker 1: But it just seems so odd that we don't know
Speaker 1: anything about Like we know that there was other O pairs,
Speaker 1: but we haven't heard from any of these other O
Speaker 1: pairs the way that Frank and Susan treated them, have we, Robin.
Speaker 2: We haven't. No, Like, no real diurtists come out about them,
Speaker 2: other than Frank's domestic abuse charge from the early nineties.
Speaker 2: But like I said, after he went into rehab and
Speaker 2: they got back together, it seems like they have lived
Speaker 2: a model lifestyle for the past thirty years.
Speaker 1: It's interesting how during the early stages of the investigation,
Speaker 1: Frank and Susan told the media that they've been cleared
Speaker 1: to suspects, but law enforcement never officially confirmed or denied this,
Speaker 1: so I'm not sure if they were completely ruled out.
Speaker 1: This doesn't necessarily mean that police believed the couple was involved,
Speaker 1: as no source close to the investigation told the Boston Globe.
Speaker 1: Oh as one source close to the investigation told the
Speaker 1: Boston Globe quote, no one's a suspect, but everyone's a suspect,
Speaker 1: which implies that they were not eliminating any possibilities. As
Speaker 1: far as Frank and Susan's alibi during that time period
Speaker 1: that Karina was killed, they always maintained that on the
Speaker 1: evening of Friday, June twenty first, they took their kids
Speaker 1: to McDonald's and a drive in movie. This wouldn't necessarily
Speaker 1: rule them out, since Karina went missing sometime between two
Speaker 1: and three am on the morning of June twenty second,
Speaker 1: and her body was not found until the afternoon of
Speaker 1: June twenty third, But it sounds like Frank's parents were
Speaker 1: visiting for the weekend and could pretty much account for
Speaker 1: the couple's whereabouts. I mean, technically, I guess Frank could
Speaker 1: have snuck out and killed Karina while the rest of
Speaker 1: the family were sleeping, But how would he have known
Speaker 1: where to find her? How could he predict Karina would
Speaker 1: be leaving the Zanzibar night club at that particular time.
Speaker 1: If Frank was able to kill Karina at the loft,
Speaker 1: then that would make sense since he had access to it,
Speaker 1: but there's no indication that Karina ever made it back
Speaker 1: there after she left the club. Police even performed a
Speaker 1: search of the loft with a trained dog, but found
Speaker 1: no evidence to suggest a crime had taken place there,
Speaker 1: which you would expect if it involved a victim being
Speaker 1: dismembered and sliced in half. I guess one troubling issue
Speaker 1: which put Frank and Susan in a suspicious light was
Speaker 1: the fire that took place in the dumpster near their
Speaker 1: condo on the night after Karina's body was found. And
Speaker 1: there's also the coincidental timing of Frank securing a permit
Speaker 1: at a nearby transfer and recycling station on the night
Speaker 1: before Karina was found, though Susan told the press that
Speaker 1: this was only done for the purpose of disposing of
Speaker 1: recycled newspapers since their Konda Minium complex did not have
Speaker 1: recycling facilities. Since none of the burn materials were covered
Speaker 1: from the dumpster had any connection to Karina's case, it's
Speaker 1: certainly possible that the whole incident was nothing more than
Speaker 1: an odd coincidence. And really, if Frank or Susan wanted
Speaker 1: to burn incriminating evidence, I'd like to think that they
Speaker 1: would be smart enough not to do so in a
Speaker 1: dumpster located so close to their residence. During a twenty
Speaker 1: nineteen news report on the Boston radio station WGBH, Frank
Speaker 1: and Susan commented on how frustrating it is when you
Speaker 1: type the name Frank Rapp into Google these days, many
Speaker 1: of the top matches mentioned him being a potential murder
Speaker 1: suspect rather than a successful photographer. Indeed, it is hard
Speaker 1: to imagine Frank committing such a brutal and horrific crime
Speaker 1: and then being able to live a normal life with
Speaker 1: his family for the next three decades. If the couple
Speaker 1: are completely innocent of any involvement in Karina's murder, then
Speaker 1: you definitely have to feel sympathy for Frank and Susan
Speaker 1: as in addition to the ensuing suspicion directed towards them.
Speaker 1: I'm sure that this must have been a very traumatic
Speaker 1: event to experience.
Speaker 3: And think about the kids that she was brought here
Speaker 3: to take care of. It had to be traumatic for
Speaker 3: them as well. And Frank's a photographer. Does a photographer
Speaker 3: know how to perfectly cut an individual in half and
Speaker 3: leave no damage to the rest of her body? Think
Speaker 3: about this, when when they discovered her torso the upper
Speaker 3: half of her body, what kinds of injuries were to
Speaker 3: the rest of her body?
Speaker 2: She had been strangled, but I don't think they found
Speaker 2: any other noticeable injuries to her at all.
Speaker 3: Okay, so there's no stab wounds or things like that,
Speaker 3: And It's interesting because had she gotten in a lover's
Speaker 3: coral or been in a fight with someone, I feel
Speaker 3: like that would have been evident that you would have
Speaker 3: seen much more of let's say, like she got stabbed
Speaker 3: or she had been assaulted physically over and over again
Speaker 3: prior to being strangled. Would have been the kind of
Speaker 3: the end of that fight. And it doesn't seem like
Speaker 3: her body showed signs of that. It's like someone who
Speaker 3: knew exactly what they were doing. They had done it before,
Speaker 3: they got excited about watching her, you know, to pass
Speaker 3: away in the way that they strangled her, and then
Speaker 3: perfectly we're able to not only cut her but also
Speaker 3: then discard of the lower half without getting caught. I
Speaker 3: think this is someone who knows what they're doing because
Speaker 3: they've done it many times before, and it's not improbable
Speaker 3: that they did it after as well.
Speaker 1: Did they do a talk screen?
Speaker 2: No, they If they did, they've never mentioned it publicly
Speaker 2: because I didn't find that information. I mean, we know
Speaker 2: that she was drinking that night, but I haven't heard
Speaker 2: anything to check if these to see if she took
Speaker 2: any drugs.
Speaker 1: Because what if he gave her a paralytic or something
Speaker 1: because that would explain why there would be no defensive wounds,
Speaker 1: because if she was restrained, we would likely see marks
Speaker 1: from that.
Speaker 4: Correct.
Speaker 2: Yes, and they said there were rope marks around her
Speaker 2: neck to indicate she'd been strangled, but no other marks
Speaker 2: or bruises or defense of wounds. So now we'll move
Speaker 2: on to discuss three other individuals who have been looked
Speaker 2: at as potential suspects because they have connections to the
Speaker 2: Zansabar nightclub, as two of these individuals were seen interacting
Speaker 2: with Karina after she exited the club on the night
Speaker 2: she disappeared. The first one was one Polo, an unhoused
Speaker 2: panhandler who was seen singing and dancing with Karrena and
Speaker 2: an Alley while she was intoxicated, and it certainly wasn't
Speaker 2: unreasonable to suspect him since he had a criminal history
Speaker 2: and at least one rape accusation. It's been reported that
Speaker 2: Polo was questioned in relation to the murder of a
Speaker 2: former girlfriend named Evelyn Alvarez, which took place one year earlier. Unfortunately,
Speaker 2: other than one article published in the Boston Globe in
Speaker 2: April of nineteen ninety five, I cannot find any additional
Speaker 2: information about this crime, so I have no idea if
Speaker 2: it's still unsolved. But one interesting detail in that case
Speaker 2: is that Evelyn hailed from the city of Chelsea, located
Speaker 2: directly across the Mystic River from Boston, so investigators wondered
Speaker 2: if she was murdered in the Boston area before the
Speaker 2: killer drove to Lakeville to dispose of her body. Regardless,
Speaker 2: no evidence was found to suggest that Karina and Evelyn's
Speaker 2: murders might be connected. And while it does not sound
Speaker 2: like Polo was officially ruled out as a suspecting Karina's case,
Speaker 2: the fact that he was unhoused and did not appear
Speaker 2: to have access to a vehicle would seem to point
Speaker 2: to him not being the killer. If Polo murdered Karina,
Speaker 2: where would he have dismembered her? And without a vehicle,
Speaker 2: how could he transport both halves for her body and
Speaker 2: dispose of them?
Speaker 3: Absolutely, that's exactly what I thought, right. If he's unhoused,
Speaker 3: he has nowhere to take her. There's a belief that
Speaker 3: she was kept alive after she left that bar for
Speaker 3: about twenty four hours, and so she had to go somewhere.
Speaker 3: We actually have her running back in the bar and
Speaker 3: telling her friends, I'm going somewhere with this older man.
Speaker 3: So we know that she had plans to leave, but
Speaker 3: they needed transportation to do so, right or they needed
Speaker 3: at least a place to go, and so I just
Speaker 3: don't see Polo having those options.
Speaker 1: For her now herb Witten our second potential suspect who
Speaker 1: spoke to Karina outside Zanzibar. He did have access to
Speaker 1: a vehicle, but the fact that he was pulled over
Speaker 1: and given a ticket for speeding later that morning does
Speaker 1: seem to give him an alibi. I can see why
Speaker 1: people might be suspicious of Witten since he lived over
Speaker 1: twenty miles away in Andover and would drive to downtown
Speaker 1: Boston with his dog and hang out outside bars and
Speaker 1: nightclubs in order to talk to women, and since he
Speaker 1: went to the trouble of dressing himself in his one
Speaker 1: hundred and twenty pound dog in Superman shirts, I could
Speaker 1: see women being inclined to go over and chat with them.
Speaker 1: Even though there was surveillance footage of Karina chatting with Witten,
Speaker 1: this might not have any significance, as it sounds like
Speaker 1: Witten was doing this sort of thing long before this
Speaker 1: encounter with Karina. I see no indication that Witten was
Speaker 1: accused of being malicious or creepy towards other women while
Speaker 1: hanging out around Boylston Place, and it might just be
Speaker 1: an unfortunate coincidence that he was seen chatting with a
Speaker 1: young woman shortly before she was murdered. Now, some would
Speaker 1: argue that the speeding ticket does not completely exonerate Witten,
Speaker 1: since he possibly could have had Karina's body inside his
Speaker 1: trunk while this was taking place, and thus the Eaters
Speaker 1: have never publicly released the exact time that Witton was
Speaker 1: pulled over that morning or confirmed that his vehicle was searched.
Speaker 1: But I wouldn't be surprised if it wasn't, since this
Speaker 1: sounded like nothing more than a routine traffic stop.
Speaker 3: Yeah, I don't think that Witton could could possibly be
Speaker 3: the person here. I think, like we talked about earlier
Speaker 3: in the first episode, is that he creates this kind
Speaker 3: of illusion of someone who's almost humorous and laughable, someone
Speaker 3: who's quirky because of the costumes, and would be somebody
Speaker 3: that I would want to strike up a conversation with.
Speaker 3: But when you look at the idea that he gets
Speaker 3: pulled over later that night, that clearly he's struggling already.
Speaker 3: I don't see this as somebody who's going to have
Speaker 3: the wherewithal to them to be charming to the extent
Speaker 3: that he could lure someone away from the bar with him.
Speaker 3: I think he would send off red flags that hey,
Speaker 3: I'm maybe not a bad guy, maybe I'm not a
Speaker 3: dangerous guy, but I'm lonely. I want attention from people.
Speaker 3: I'm desperate to talk to people, and I don't think
Speaker 3: that's somebody that Karina, even intoxicated, wants to go with.
Speaker 2: I know that it definitely raised some eyebrows when Wynten
Speaker 2: decided to take his own life in January of nineteen
Speaker 2: ninety seven, particularly since he did so by slitting his
Speaker 2: own throat, which seems like a pretty extreme method for suicide.
Speaker 2: So did wit and kill himself out of guilt for
Speaker 2: what he did to Karna, or did he just crack
Speaker 2: from the strain of being a potential suspect and a
Speaker 2: homicide Well, after reading about Wynd's history of struggles with
Speaker 2: depression and mental illness, I am inclined to believe it
Speaker 2: was the latter. It's worth noting that even though police
Speaker 2: announced that they were looking for a man with a
Speaker 2: large sheep dog who had been speaking with Karina outside
Speaker 2: the club, and the media lad reported that this man
Speaker 2: had died by suicide. Wynn's name was never released publicly
Speaker 2: until weeks after his death. Winn's attorney also prevented him
Speaker 2: from being formally questioned by police, as he felt that
Speaker 2: Wittin could not mentally handle an interrogation. But even though
Speaker 2: Witten was never named as a suspect or person of interest,
Speaker 2: it sounds like just being associated with this crime in
Speaker 2: any fashion took a hole on his fragile mental health,
Speaker 2: and he may have been the breaking point which drove
Speaker 2: him to suicide. And you also have to couple this
Speaker 2: in with the fact that Wynn's own father had recently
Speaker 2: passed away, and it sounds like you took it pretty hard.
Speaker 2: It was not until the lead detective on the case,
Speaker 2: Thomas O'Leary, was asked about Witten in the June twenty third,
Speaker 2: nineteen ninety eight edition of The Boston Herald, when he
Speaker 2: publicly stated quote, he didn't do it. Indeed, one reason
Speaker 2: why it's hard to imagine Witten being the killer is
Speaker 2: because he had a history of erratic behavior. But Karina's
Speaker 2: murder was meticulous organized crime, and it's hard to imagine
Speaker 2: Witten Orjan Polo for that matter, being able to commit
Speaker 2: a murder like this without leaving any evidence behind.
Speaker 3: That's very true. I think that when you have this
Speaker 3: idea where even the lead detective right comes out and says, hey,
Speaker 3: Winton told me that he didn't do it right, it's
Speaker 3: hard to think about this idea that he's a ratic,
Speaker 3: and this crime clearly is not. There's not a piece
Speaker 3: of evidence that shows that somebody haphazardly did this crime out.
Speaker 4: Of a mental health episode.
Speaker 3: It was planned, and so I just do not think
Speaker 3: that either Witten or Polo have that ability to commit
Speaker 3: the crime. I just I don't see it. I see
Speaker 3: those two men. I see it this mysterious older man man.
Speaker 3: I see that being a much more plausible explanation, and
Speaker 3: or don't forget there is the stranger element as well.
Speaker 1: I agree, I just don't see Polo or Witten as
Speaker 1: very good suspects. Pollo doesn't have a place which he
Speaker 1: would be able to do this act, and he doesn't
Speaker 1: have a vehicle to transport him to a place even
Speaker 1: if he did have it, And then Witten. It just
Speaker 1: sounds like it's really sad. It sounds like a sad
Speaker 1: situation of a man who was struggling with mental health issues.
Speaker 1: And I don't find it personally suspicious that he decided
Speaker 1: to end his own life. It is really horrific to
Speaker 1: think what he went through in the moment's leading up
Speaker 1: to that, and the method that he chose is just
Speaker 1: it's awful, and I really feel for him and his family,
Speaker 1: and I hope that that dog found a good home
Speaker 1: after so Our final potential suspect is Gregory Hummel, who
Speaker 1: was not seen with Karina at Zanzibar at the time
Speaker 1: she was killed, but made the news six months later
Speaker 1: when he picked up another young woman from the same
Speaker 1: nightclub and proceeded to take her back to his apartment
Speaker 1: and attempted to rape her. She managed to grab Humble's
Speaker 1: mobile phone and lock herself in the bathroom to call
Speaker 1: for help. But if this hadn't happened, could she have
Speaker 1: potentially suffered the same fate as Karina. Well, Humble did
Speaker 1: have a history of allegations of violence against women, There's
Speaker 1: still a big difference between beating and sexually assaulting them
Speaker 1: and murder and dismemberment. We were unable to find much
Speaker 1: follow up information on the investigation into Hummel, only that
Speaker 1: he spent a year in jail for his attack on
Speaker 1: the other woman. And incidentally, if you search through the
Speaker 1: Boston Globes archives, you'll find Hummell's name listed multiple times
Speaker 1: in their real estate transaction section for selling houses during
Speaker 1: the mid two thousands. So it does not sound like
Speaker 1: his jailston curtails his real estate career. But even though
Speaker 1: Hummel violently attacked a woman that he picked up his zanzibar,
Speaker 1: I'm not sure if he could be placed at that
Speaker 1: same club on the night that Karina was there. So,
Speaker 1: for all we know, perhaps investigators were able to establish
Speaker 1: that he had an alibi and ruled him out.
Speaker 3: Yes, absolutely, When you look at this idea that he
Speaker 3: attacked another woman from the same bar that our victim
Speaker 3: went missing from, that doesn't equate to the level of
Speaker 3: crime that happened against Karina, right, That is a totally
Speaker 3: different element and realm of violence. And so when you
Speaker 3: look at this, I think that he could have had
Speaker 3: an issue with women, but I don't again see a
Speaker 3: profession that indicates knowledge of being able to bilaterally cut
Speaker 3: her right and to dispose of a body that way,
Speaker 3: it just doesn't scream to me the same level of criminality.
Speaker 3: So assaulting somebody horrific, But when you look at cutting
Speaker 3: a body in half, discarding her, and strangling her to death,
Speaker 3: those are not that. That's not at the same level
Speaker 3: that this real estate agent is showing in his other
Speaker 3: types of crimes.
Speaker 1: And what do you guys think of the timing too? So, say,
Speaker 1: just for example, that a man was to do this
Speaker 1: to Karina, and we could hypothesize that there was some
Speaker 1: kind of paralytic use because there was a lack of
Speaker 1: defensive injuries, and aside from the rope burn around her neck,
Speaker 1: there was no restraint marks. She didn't have any other
Speaker 1: abrasions contusions, So it's very possible that she could have
Speaker 1: been given some kind of drugs so that she remained calm,
Speaker 1: so that this person could potentially sexually assault her or
Speaker 1: do what they were going to do to her without
Speaker 1: her fighting back. But then in this case we see
Speaker 1: a really sloppy assault where he's incredibly violent and didn't
Speaker 1: go to any steps to use any type of drugs
Speaker 1: to subdue his victim. I just don't see the offender
Speaker 1: connection here. It just seems like two completely different crimes.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I totally agree, and I think that if Hummel
Speaker 2: had this incident happened with a woman that he picked
Speaker 2: up at an entirely different nightclub, they wouldn't even be
Speaker 2: attempting to connect him to this case at all. It's
Speaker 2: only because of the coincidental timing. But I do agree that
Speaker 2: it seems like Karina's offender would be the type of
Speaker 2: person that if he wanted to sexually assault a woman,
Speaker 2: he would give her some sort of drug, whereas Humble
Speaker 2: was just more violent and aggressive, and that's why this
Speaker 2: woman managed to save herself. However, the one thing which
Speaker 2: might point away from Humble, Polo Witten, Frank Rap, or
Speaker 2: any of the other known potential suspects is the partial
Speaker 2: fingerprint which was found on the trash bag can take
Speaker 2: Karina's body. While this has never been publicly confirmed, I'd
Speaker 2: like to think that investigators at least attempted to compare
Speaker 2: the print to the fingerprints of all these other individuals
Speaker 2: I just mentioned and found none of them to be
Speaker 2: a match. So this is why I'm inclined to believe
Speaker 2: that the perpetrator might be someone who has never been
Speaker 2: investigated or shown up on the police's radar. It might
Speaker 2: be hard to imagine someone going to the trouble of
Speaker 2: slicing a woman's body in half and then never committing
Speaker 2: another crime like that again. But after nearly eight years,
Speaker 2: we've still never determined who is responsible for the Black
Speaker 2: Dolly murder. So, for all you know, Elizabeth Schwortz killer
Speaker 2: may have gone back to living a normal life and
Speaker 2: didn't commit any more murders. The whole crime is such
Speaker 2: an anomaly because we don't know of any similar murders
Speaker 2: which took place in the Boston area during that time period.
Speaker 2: So did that killer move elsewhere or change the remo,
Speaker 2: or did they just simply never kill again. We have
Speaker 2: to harken back to Karina's cryptic letter about something terrible
Speaker 2: having happened, because while this might be nothing more than
Speaker 2: a red herring, it could also hold the key to
Speaker 2: the mystery. But until then we can only speculate, and
Speaker 2: since this is a cold case which may not be
Speaker 2: solved through D and April filing, it might require the
Speaker 2: right person coming forward with information. So if you happen
Speaker 2: to know anything about the unsolved murder of Krena Holmer,
Speaker 2: please contact the Boston Police Department Unsolved Homicide Unit at
Speaker 2: six one seven three four three four four seven zero.
Speaker 2: That's six one seven three four three four four seven zero.
Speaker 2: Or if you want to send any tips anonymously, please
Speaker 2: call the Crime Stoppers tip line at one eight hundred
Speaker 2: four nine four tips. That's one eight hundred four nine
Speaker 2: four eight four seven seven Jules Ashley, any final thoughts
Speaker 2: in this case?
Speaker 3: You know, for me, the hardest part about this one
Speaker 3: is that her family was not here. They were not
Speaker 3: able to really get a glimpse of her life here.
Speaker 4: In the United States.
Speaker 3: They weren't able to understand the people she was hanging
Speaker 3: out with. And then they have no idea how the
Speaker 3: investigation's going, right, Who's this family she was with, Who's
Speaker 3: the people she was hanging around, what happened to her?
Speaker 3: When they're processing the scene and when they're handling her
Speaker 3: body and all of these things, that's just they're so
Speaker 3: removed from it that has to definitely emphasize the grief
Speaker 3: and complicate the grief. You know, I wonder if they
Speaker 3: have guilt of saying, listen, we let her go try
Speaker 3: this new adventure, when really they should be so proud
Speaker 3: of encouraging her to go pursue a dream in America,
Speaker 3: have a new life.
Speaker 4: It's just exciting.
Speaker 3: And yet I guarantee you there's so much hurt and
Speaker 3: pain of saying, like, we sent her there, we let
Speaker 3: her go. It's like a parent sending their kid to college, right,
Speaker 3: and something happens, and so my heart really goes out
Speaker 3: to them of saying, look, not only did you lose
Speaker 3: your daughter, but you lost her in a foreign place
Speaker 3: where you didn't have access to It has to be
Speaker 3: incredibly devastating. It would be amazing to know what happened here,
Speaker 3: not just for the family, but because my god, if
Speaker 3: this person has done this before, they do it to Karina,
Speaker 3: who's to say that they didn't do it after And
Speaker 3: there's other victims as well. This is a very dangerous
Speaker 3: person and they need to be caught.
Speaker 1: You're so right, ash, and I think that in a
Speaker 1: situation where the family is in Sweden, like my heart
Speaker 1: goes out to them because I cannot imagine how awful
Speaker 1: it must feel to potentially have a language barrier. You're
Speaker 1: dealing with another country and you've got questions about the investigation,
Speaker 1: but the communication wouldn't flow easily, and you just don't
Speaker 1: know if investigators are doing what they need to do
Speaker 1: to solve Karina's murder. And that is compounded I think
Speaker 1: by the fact that we know that she wrote that letter,
Speaker 1: and that letter indicated that something really terrible had happened,
Speaker 1: so she wanted to return home early. So for her family,
Speaker 1: knowing that she already had active plans to come home
Speaker 1: and then this happened, it's just so heartbreaking, Like she
Speaker 1: was just out there living her life, meeting other Swedish
Speaker 1: opairs and having a good time, which is what a
Speaker 1: girl her age should have been doing. This shouldn't have
Speaker 1: happened to her, but unfortunately it did. And I think
Speaker 1: that the most likely theory in my head is probably
Speaker 1: the two guys in the Mitsubishi. It's possible that there
Speaker 1: could have been two offenders. I think you're more disarmed
Speaker 1: and you're more inclined to get into a vehicle with
Speaker 1: more than one person. If it's just one person, you think, okay,
Speaker 1: well they could do harm to me. But if there's
Speaker 1: two people, you're like, well it has to be safe.
Speaker 1: There's more than one person, and like there's safety in numbers,
Speaker 1: So I think that she could have very easily voluntarily
Speaker 1: got into that vehicle. But I don't think that any
Speaker 1: of the suspects in this case really check out. I
Speaker 1: think it's possible that Frank could have done something to
Speaker 1: Karina allegedly that could have been that terrible thing, but
Speaker 1: like as she said earlier in the episode, that wouldn't
Speaker 1: necessarily make him a murderer. It looks like he had
Speaker 1: a pretty strong alibi, with his family visiting, going to
Speaker 1: that drive in, and going to dinner. So I don't
Speaker 1: think that he killed Karina because and had mentioned the
Speaker 1: like how would he have known that she was there
Speaker 1: and like contacted her, and all of these sorts of
Speaker 1: details that just don't seem to add up. The police
Speaker 1: obviously didn't want to clear anybody. It didn't seem to
Speaker 1: publicly name anyone as being cleared or eliminated as a
Speaker 1: suspect or a person of interest, so I don't think
Speaker 1: we can necessarily read anything into that. It my heart breaks.
Speaker 1: This is a really gruesome case, and it makes me
Speaker 1: think that this can have been this offender's first kill.
Speaker 1: So it's likely that maybe they're in jail for another offense,
Speaker 1: or they've gotten away with it and they've just switched up.
Speaker 2: Their mo Yeah, I'm glad you mentioned Karina's family, because
Speaker 2: this is one case where you have not seen the
Speaker 2: victim's family in the spotlight too much doing interviews. But
Speaker 2: that just isn't their fault, because they are from a
Speaker 2: small town in Sweden, and they, for all we know,
Speaker 2: just cannot afford to keep going back and forth between
Speaker 2: there and the United States to keep tabs on the
Speaker 2: investigation and spread awareness about the case and do stuff
Speaker 2: like hand out flyers. So they've pretty much been able
Speaker 2: to unable to do anything but just sit back and
Speaker 2: wait and hope that the police find the killer. And
Speaker 2: I know when they sent to Karina on there, I'm
Speaker 2: sure they never imagined that she would become a victim
Speaker 2: just like Elizabeth Short the Black Dahlia, and that the
Speaker 2: crime would remain unsolved for nearly thirty years. And I
Speaker 2: do agree that we've had all these suspects, I don't
Speaker 2: think any of them are particularly compelling. I do think
Speaker 2: it's possible that Frank Rapp may have done something inappropriate
Speaker 2: with Karna and may know more than he's leting on
Speaker 2: and that this could be the source of Karna's letter.
Speaker 2: But it's also possible that all this stuff is just
Speaker 2: a red herring and she just cross passed with the
Speaker 2: wrong person at the nightclub that night, someone she had
Speaker 2: never encountered before in her life, and unfortunately she wound
Speaker 2: up leaving with them and was murdered in such a
Speaker 2: brutal fashion. Do agree that if you were to pick
Speaker 2: anyone those two men in the Mitsubi, she do seem
Speaker 2: like the most promising suspects. But of course the big
Speaker 2: issue is that we just cannot firm they existed. We
Speaker 2: only have one eyewitness who recalled seeing them, so there
Speaker 2: really isn't a lot to work with. But I am
Speaker 2: intrigued by the theory that was pushed forward that these
Speaker 2: men may not have been just serial killers. They may
Speaker 2: have just gone too far with Korena and decided that
Speaker 2: the best way to get rid of the physical evidence
Speaker 2: and to get rid of DNA would be to cut
Speaker 2: her body in half and get rid of the lower
Speaker 2: torso so that it is never found. And that this
Speaker 2: wasn't done just because they get off on killing. They
Speaker 2: just did it to cover themselves. And then just went
Speaker 2: on living their normal lives. Again, we just don't know,
Speaker 2: but it's just hard to imagine that someone who would
Speaker 2: be capable of something like this could just not commit
Speaker 2: any more crimes. So yeah, even though we don't have
Speaker 2: any DNA to work with or physical evidence, I do
Speaker 2: hope someday they have a major break in this case
Speaker 2: and we can find out who actually did it.
Speaker 5: Robin, do you want to tell us a little bit
Speaker 5: about the Trail Went Cold Patreon?
Speaker 2: Yes. The Trail Cold Patreon has been around for three
Speaker 2: years now, and we offer these stand and bonus features
Speaker 2: like early ad free episodes, and I also send out
Speaker 2: stickers and sign thank you cards to anyone who signs
Speaker 2: up with us on Patreon. If you join our five
Speaker 2: dollars tier Tier two, we also offer monthly bonus episodes
Speaker 2: in which I talk about cases which are not featured
Speaker 2: on the Trail Went Cold's original feed, so they're exclusive
Speaker 2: to Patreon, and if you join our highest tier tier three,
Speaker 2: the ten dollars tier. One of the features we offer
Speaker 2: is a audio commentary track over classic episodes of Unsawved Mysteries,
Speaker 2: where you can download an audio file and then boot
Speaker 2: up the original Unsoalved Mysteries episode on Amazon Prime or
Speaker 2: YouTube and play it with my audio commentary playing in
Speaker 2: the background, where I just provide trivia and factoids about
Speaker 2: the cases featured in this episode. And incidentally, the very
Speaker 2: first episode that I did a commentary track over was
Speaker 2: the episode featuring this case. So if you want to
Speaker 2: download a commentary track in which I make more smart
Speaker 2: ass remarks about Jewel Kaylor, then be sure to join
Speaker 2: tear three.
Speaker 5: So I want to let you know a little bit
Speaker 5: about the Jules and Ashley patreons. So there's early ad
Speaker 5: free episodes of The Path Went Chili. We've got our
Speaker 5: Pathwent Chili mini's, which are always over an hour, so
Speaker 5: they're not very mini, but they're just too short to
Speaker 5: turn into a series, and we're really enjoying doing those.
Speaker 5: So we hope you'll check out those patreons.
Speaker 1: We'll link them in the show notes.
Speaker 2: So I want to thank you all for listening, and
Speaker 2: any chance you have to share us on social media
Speaker 2: with a friend or to rate and review is greatly
Speaker 2: appreciate it. You can email us at The Pathwentchili at
Speaker 2: gmail dot com. You can reach us on Twitter at
Speaker 2: the Pathwin So until next time, be sure to bundle up,
Speaker 2: because cold trails and chili pass call for warm clothing.
Speaker 1: Music by Paul Rich from the podcast Cold Callers comedy