Speaker 1: You are listening to the con Frondly Christianity podcast, and
Speaker 1: today I'm welcoming back one of the guests from our
Speaker 1: first ever season of our podcast, So those who've been
Speaker 1: listening from the very beginning, we'll remember Lisa Fields. Lisa
Speaker 1: is a Christian apologist who merges her deep biblical knowledge
Speaker 1: with her heartfelt mission to share God's love. She's been
Speaker 1: recognized by Christianity Today for her impactful work in the
Speaker 1: African American community, and she's produced two documentaries, Unspoken and
Speaker 1: Juneteenth Faith and Freedom. Lisa is the CEO of Jude
Speaker 1: three Project and the author of the new book When
Speaker 1: Faith Disappoints the gap between what we believe and what
Speaker 1: we experience. Lisa, thank you so much for joining me again.
Speaker 2: Thank you for having me. Rebecca, it's joy for those.
Speaker 1: Who aren't yet familiar with your ministry. I'd love first
Speaker 1: for you to give us a little bit of a
Speaker 1: taste of what Jude three Project is about, and yeah,
Speaker 1: what that project's been working on and how people could
Speaker 1: find out more.
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, Well. Jud three is a Christian apologetics organization
Speaker 2: dedicated to helping Black Christians know what they believe and
Speaker 2: why they believe it, and we do that through a
Speaker 2: number of ways. Of the documentaries you just highlighted June
Speaker 2: teenth and Unspoken, we have curriculum, online courses, a number
Speaker 2: of other things like podcasts. We have multimedia series such
Speaker 2: as Why I Don't Go when I sit down with
Speaker 2: young adults who left the faith. And we have our
Speaker 2: national conference Courageous Conversations that has happens annually that merges
Speaker 2: black scholars, professors, pastors, thought leaders together from conservative and
Speaker 2: progressive spaces for conversations around conversations that are relevant for
Speaker 2: the culture, such as the exclusivity of Jesus, the trustworthinians
Speaker 2: of the Bible, sexuality. It runs the gamut of conversations
Speaker 2: that we've held.
Speaker 1: And what was it that first motivated you to want
Speaker 1: to found the organization and get involved with that particular
Speaker 1: sort of segment of the mission of the church.
Speaker 2: Yeah, it was my undergrad experience taking a class New Testament.
Speaker 2: Our textbook was bar Ermit in terms of New Testament,
Speaker 2: and that was the first time I had really questioned
Speaker 2: my faith, questioned the scriptures in particular, And that was
Speaker 2: when my father, who is a pastor, introduced me to
Speaker 2: apologetics and getting apologetic apologist perspective on what I was
Speaker 2: navigating in class. The reliability of the Bible and things
Speaker 2: of that nature really helped me navigate that class. But
Speaker 2: as I got more immersion in apologetics, I didn't see
Speaker 2: any African Americans leading and I wanted to do something
Speaker 2: about that. And so that was kind of the genesis
Speaker 2: of me thinking about what it looks like for me
Speaker 2: to help black churches and Black Christians and black skeptics
Speaker 2: wrestle through hard questions about the Bible and about God.
Speaker 2: And that kind of led me on the journey and
Speaker 2: eventually I would started you through project. Yeah.
Speaker 1: Yeah, that's fascinating. Yeah. My understanding is that in the US,
Speaker 1: Black Americans are disproportionately likely to have some form of
Speaker 1: Christian background, and actually when I was more likely to
Speaker 1: actually still be very much involved in Christian churches and
Speaker 1: to hold sort of core biblical beliefs, what is it
Speaker 1: would you say, as you've sort of been involved in
Speaker 1: that particular kind of ministry in the last several years,
Speaker 1: thinking about maybe some of the questions that folks might
Speaker 1: have if they've been raised in the context of the
Speaker 1: Black Church in America versus you know, folks who might
Speaker 1: have been raised in other kinds of churches, Like, what
Speaker 1: are the biggest sort of questions I guess or concerns
Speaker 1: that folks have who have that particular background.
Speaker 2: The biggest question is is Christian and white men's religion?
Speaker 2: That's the question that we have to answer more often
Speaker 2: than not in our context. Should I trust this faith
Speaker 2: of faith that was given to a lot of our
Speaker 2: ancestors through their slave masters and so, and the faith
Speaker 2: the slave masters gave their slaves was very a very
Speaker 2: contaminated version, a very incorrect version in a lot of ways,
Speaker 2: and so kind of reframing that for people who were like, Hey,
Speaker 2: I'm thinking about this, Should I trust this Bible? Should
Speaker 2: I trust this book? Because it was used as a
Speaker 2: tool of oppression? That's the questions we have to help people.
Speaker 2: That's the main question that we have to help people
Speaker 2: walk through when we're dealing with apologetics in my contexts.
Speaker 1: Yeah, that's interesting. Yeah, for those not familiar with this
Speaker 1: particular sort of area of history. One of the really
Speaker 1: sort of startling things that I discovered as a sort
Speaker 1: of looking into the history that you're referencing there is
Speaker 1: the way in which the Bible was like specifically edited,
Speaker 1: like the whole sections of the Bible were cut out,
Speaker 1: and the areas of the Bible like put off limits
Speaker 1: for black people living in America to have access to
Speaker 1: you because it was like, oh, if we actually let
Speaker 1: people who are currently enslaved see what they're you know what,
Speaker 1: the whole of the Bible says, we're going to be
Speaker 1: in all sorts of trouble. Like it's sort of kind
Speaker 1: of telling I guess that the Bible had to be
Speaker 1: so carefully edited and that often people were even like
Speaker 1: preventing folks from learning to read because it was far
Speaker 1: too dangerous to put an actual like copy of God's
Speaker 1: word into the hands of people you're trying to oppress
Speaker 1: and for them not to realize, oh Jesus is on
Speaker 1: my side and not on your side. So very very
Speaker 1: quickly there, So tell us these your recent book, which
Speaker 1: I think just came out this summer, is that right?
Speaker 1: Tell us what motivated you to want to write that
Speaker 1: book and what are the particular kinds of questions and
Speaker 1: concerns that you're wanting to address.
Speaker 2: There, Yeah, the book When Faith Disappoints. And it's funny
Speaker 2: because everyone was like, oh, I didn't expect this to
Speaker 2: be your first book. We thought you would do something
Speaker 2: that was more classical or traditional posts. But as I'm
Speaker 2: just having conversations with people who left the faith, people
Speaker 2: who were skeptical by the faith, I noticed a pattern
Speaker 2: that a lot of it had to do with pain
Speaker 2: at the core. Now, there were intellectual questions at the start,
Speaker 2: but once you listen to them long enough, it always
Speaker 2: led to pain for the most part, more often than not.
Speaker 2: And so I was like, what does it mean for
Speaker 2: me to write to the root of the issue and
Speaker 2: not to just the fruit of the issue. If we're
Speaker 2: starting this conversation about evolution and faith, but we ended
Speaker 2: on you prayed for your mom to be healed and
Speaker 2: she died of cancer. Like, what is the starting point here?
Speaker 2: And as I started to have more and more conversations
Speaker 2: with people that were wrestling with God, pain was just
Speaker 2: the overarching thing. And so people felt disappointed, and not
Speaker 2: just being disappointed with people. It's one thing churchard is
Speaker 2: one thing, but being disappointed with God, to me is
Speaker 2: a whole nother thing. Because even sometimes the onset of
Speaker 2: our complaints with people, really, if we dig back, it's like, God,
Speaker 2: why did you even let this scenario happen in the
Speaker 2: first place, Like, I'm mad at this person, But God,
Speaker 2: you are all powerful on knowing and all loving, Like
Speaker 2: why did you even let this even take place with
Speaker 2: this person? So the issue is not solely with the person,
Speaker 2: It's with God. And so it was like, how can
Speaker 2: I write and minister to the hearts of people that
Speaker 2: are wrestling with doubt? And I will deal with some
Speaker 2: traditional apologetic questions throughout us. There's sprinkled in throughout, but
Speaker 2: at the core, let's get to the heart of the issue.
Speaker 2: Because if we get to the root of the issue
Speaker 2: and I minister and share the Gospel to that issue,
Speaker 2: I think we'll have more attraction in people giving God
Speaker 2: another ear or rethinking the faith. And so that was
Speaker 2: really the reason I wrote this, because I felt like
Speaker 2: I want to minister to the heart of broken people
Speaker 2: been disappointment and I want to share my own disappointments
Speaker 2: because the disappointments that you experience are some of the
Speaker 2: disappointments that everybody experiences in this life. It may look
Speaker 2: different and may take different framings, but we all wrestle
Speaker 2: with disappointment. And so the way to get through that
Speaker 2: disappointment is to wrestle with God. And when they've disappointed,
Speaker 2: I believe gives people the opportunity to wrestle with God
Speaker 2: and to normalize it.
Speaker 1: Yeah, that's fascinating what you use the expression there of
Speaker 1: applying the Gospel to the sort of heart of their
Speaker 1: their concern. So tell us a little bit more about
Speaker 1: that for those who maybe aren't familiar with even what
Speaker 1: the gospel is or how it might apply to somebody's situation.
Speaker 1: If they feel like, do you know what I prayed
Speaker 1: for something and I didn't get the answer that I
Speaker 1: was hoping for, or like, or I invested so much
Speaker 1: in this church community and then I felt profoundly disappointed
Speaker 1: by the treatment that I received, or you know, the
Speaker 1: various different forms that that can take. What would it
Speaker 1: look like for you to apply the gospel to those.
Speaker 2: Yeah, one thing that I love about the Gospel is
Speaker 2: the incarnational nature of it and what I mean by that.
Speaker 2: Jesus came, took on flesh and dwelt among us, and
Speaker 2: we don't often think about what it took for Jesus
Speaker 2: to humble himself on that level and to take on
Speaker 2: flesh live amongst us for thirty years and we don't
Speaker 2: have much of what he said. It wasn't his time
Speaker 2: to highlight who he was, and he listened to our concerns.
Speaker 2: He interacted, He understood what it was like to be us,
Speaker 2: and in his understanding, now he's able to intercede for
Speaker 2: us on a deep level. He is our high priest
Speaker 2: because he can identify with the struggles that we have
Speaker 2: and do navigate on a daily basis in a unique
Speaker 2: way that he wasn't able to identify with before he
Speaker 2: came to earth. And I think as that is what
Speaker 2: this book is is very incarnational. It's like sitting with
Speaker 2: people in their hurts telling them that I hurt too.
Speaker 2: Jesus says, like through the Gospels we see that he
Speaker 2: hurts too. He experiences anxieties, frustrations, has difficult conversations. And
Speaker 2: so in this book that I show like the way
Speaker 2: that you suffer, I suffer, and the way that you suffer,
Speaker 2: Jesus suffer that he doesn't. He doesn't leave the comforts
Speaker 2: of heaven to live this perfect life. He has a life.
Speaker 2: He is perfectness. So don't get me wrong. He's without saying,
Speaker 2: but his life is full of challenges. It's not just
Speaker 2: the easy road. So he is sinless, but his life
Speaker 2: still has challenges. And because if God doesn't escape challenges,
Speaker 2: then us as humans will not like many other inflictions
Speaker 2: of the righteous, the Lord will deliver us out of
Speaker 2: them all. We don't escape suffering, but we do have
Speaker 2: a suffering Savior that brings us comfort in our own suffering.
Speaker 2: And I think that's what this book offers, that the
Speaker 2: Gospel was a message that is not like where you
Speaker 2: are escaping every hardship in this world. The gospel of
Speaker 2: Jesus came and died experience deep suffering because he wanted
Speaker 2: us to be reconciled back to the Father. And so
Speaker 2: I think that is some of the ways kind of
Speaker 2: our frame it in the book to let people know
Speaker 2: that their suffering isn't normal, that it is a suffering
Speaker 2: is a part of the walk of a believer. And
Speaker 2: the gospel message is that our Savior suffered, and so
Speaker 2: because he suffered, we will suffer as well.
Speaker 1: You know, people sometimes have the idea that when we're
Speaker 1: talking about God, we're talking about a sort of remote deity.
Speaker 1: Somehow he was like distant from the day to day
Speaker 1: of your all my life, or especially from the really
Speaker 1: dark valleys that we might walk through. In actual fact,
Speaker 1: that one of the sort of crazy things about the
Speaker 1: Christian message is that actually the God who made all
Speaker 1: the universe not only came to live among us, but
Speaker 1: also died the most horrific death. Like that the suffering
Speaker 1: of Jesus is at the center, as you were pointing out,
Speaker 1: it's like at the center of the Christian message. And
Speaker 1: so there is no no sense in which he doesn't
Speaker 1: understand and he can't and won't enter in with us
Speaker 1: into our suffering because actually that's like precisely what he did.
Speaker 1: He carried all our our sicknesses and are sort of
Speaker 1: sorrows upon himself, is one of the ways that the
Speaker 1: Bible puts it. And so I think that's like a
Speaker 1: really actually unique and beautiful element of the Christian story
Speaker 1: that people I think people sometimes think, well, you know,
Speaker 1: I used to believe in the God of Christianity, but
Speaker 1: then like suffering came into my life, and now I
Speaker 1: just can't believe anymore. And I can sort of understand
Speaker 1: where that comes from, and that suffering can like really
Speaker 1: deeply shake us. But at the same time, actually it's
Speaker 1: like uh, running away from the one thing that gives
Speaker 1: us hope in the middle of suffering, like the one
Speaker 1: place where our suffering might actually ultimately matter to the
Speaker 1: heart of God is the kind of Christian Christian message
Speaker 1: there walk us through a little bit, Lisa. I know
Speaker 1: in your book you sort of break down different areas
Speaker 1: of her that people might have experienced, and you sort
Speaker 1: of group them together under some interesting framework. So I'd
Speaker 1: love for you to give us just a sample of
Speaker 1: that for those who might be interested to grab the
Speaker 1: book and dig in more.
Speaker 2: So, I break it down our pain into seven categories. Personhood,
Speaker 2: that's identity. Peace everybody's trying to find, especially in our
Speaker 2: culture today, Peace, the pain, point of provision, like God,
Speaker 2: will my needs be met? Pleasure? How can I experience joy?
Speaker 2: Many people get into addictions because they're trying to find
Speaker 2: some kind of pleasure in a life that is deeply painful. Purpose,
Speaker 2: Why I am I hear? Protection? Like who will protect me?
Speaker 2: In a life of challenge? Many people have experienced abuse
Speaker 2: and they're like, why would a loving, all powerful God
Speaker 2: allow this to happen? And then power. Sometimes people pursue
Speaker 2: power because they felt so powerless, and they're like, I
Speaker 2: don't want this pain to happen again, So let me
Speaker 2: be in charge. Because if I'm in charge and I
Speaker 2: can take control, then I can avoid painful experiences. Now
Speaker 2: we know that's not the reality, but sometimes when we're traumatized,
Speaker 2: we look for things to cope and try to free
Speaker 2: ourselves from the hurt and the pain we're in. And
Speaker 2: so those are the ways I frame it and break
Speaker 2: down those pain points. And I love that they all
Speaker 2: start with pee because I like but yeah, yeah, that
Speaker 2: is some of the ways that I think has been
Speaker 2: helpful to frame it for people. And it's a theme
Speaker 2: that I've seen just in doing this work for many years.
Speaker 1: Yeah, and I know one of the ways in which
Speaker 1: people have sometimes responded to the kinds of challenges that
Speaker 1: you're you're highlighting there is by preaching essentially a kind
Speaker 1: of prosperity gospel, like a aversion of Christianity, which says
Speaker 1: like if you if you only have faith, if you
Speaker 1: you know, put your trust in God, and maybe if
Speaker 1: you like often also like if you if you start
Speaker 1: giving enough money to your church or whatever, you know,
Speaker 1: whatever it is, like, there are certain things you can
Speaker 1: you can do that will then basically guarantee like you
Speaker 1: will have health and prosperity and like bad stuff won't
Speaker 1: happen to you anymore. So help us understand, like why
Speaker 1: why do you think that that message can be attractive
Speaker 1: to people? And how is it sort of very different
Speaker 1: from a biblical understanding of what the message with Jesus is.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I think it's attractive because it's like it's an
Speaker 2: easy fix that we're all looking for easy fixes, and
Speaker 2: it's a way to take control. Like people don't think
Speaker 2: of the prosperity gospel as a way to hake control,
Speaker 2: but I think it is in a sense of like
Speaker 2: if I do this, this will happen. You kind of
Speaker 2: get control. If I give enough, then I will have
Speaker 2: this outcome. So it's a way to control my life
Speaker 2: by doing good things. The problem is the person who
Speaker 2: lived a sinless life suffered, and so he did everything right.
Speaker 2: There was nothing wrong, no sin in him, and so
Speaker 2: it is really biblically dishonest to look at the text
Speaker 2: and say God will bless you whenever you pray, or
Speaker 2: God will answer every prayer. Jesus in the garden said,
Speaker 2: if it's possible, can you remove this cup from me?
Speaker 2: Like he didn't want to suffer, but he understood, not
Speaker 2: my will, but God will be done, that this was
Speaker 2: the road that God had chosen for the salvation of humanity.
Speaker 2: And so if he didn't escape it, why do we
Speaker 2: think we will? And God is not even requiring did
Speaker 2: eye on a cross from most of us. We will
Speaker 2: never die on a cross, you know. But He is
Speaker 2: requiring that we navigate difficult conversations, difficult difficult lives on
Speaker 2: some level, and it's not every season. We have our
Speaker 2: peaks and valleys, but we cannot escape difficulty. And I
Speaker 2: think you know, in the Gospel message, we see like
Speaker 2: the most the perfect person that lived suffered, and that
Speaker 2: to me, that cancels out all prosperity teaching.
Speaker 1: Right, yeah, yeah, And he told his followers to expect
Speaker 1: that they would suffer as well, Like it's yeah, I mean,
Speaker 1: I think people don't have this idea that like, oh,
Speaker 1: if God really loved me, he could not intend for
Speaker 1: me to suffer. And yet I think when we open
Speaker 1: you can pick up pretty much any book in the
Speaker 1: Bible and find that that is not true. That actually
Speaker 1: often the people who are serving God most faithfully are
Speaker 1: the ones who are suffering the most. That we can't
Speaker 1: like draw this kind of correlation between the suffering that
Speaker 1: we experience and God's favor, which also, like on the
Speaker 1: flip side of that means that the fact that someone's
Speaker 1: suffering doesn't necessarily mean that they have like broadered on
Speaker 1: themselves by a particular sin. I mean, I feel like
Speaker 1: that's another way people can get caught up and misled
Speaker 1: is just to feel like, oh, because you know this
Speaker 1: thing is happening in my life, or because I'm having
Speaker 1: this like particular health problem or whatever it is, like
Speaker 1: that must be a sort of form of God's judgment
Speaker 1: on me. When you know, Jesus is very clear when
Speaker 1: he's asked that question directly about a man who is
Speaker 1: born blind, like did this guy sin or his parents?
Speaker 1: And Jesus is like, no, that's neither of those things,
Speaker 1: So that the glory of God will be revealed. I
Speaker 1: feel like we can kind of fall into that trap
Speaker 1: as well, in the midst of suffering, and that's not
Speaker 1: the The answer that we're given in Christianity is actually
Speaker 1: Jesus's death on a cross at the at the center
Speaker 1: of everything. What would you say, Lisa, I know, when
Speaker 1: when I sit down to write a book. They're often
Speaker 1: like pieces of it that I already kind of know
Speaker 1: exactly what I want to say, and other pieces is
Speaker 1: where I sort of learned as I go along, or
Speaker 1: like it's like I discover kind of what needs to
Speaker 1: be said in the process of writing it. And I'm curious,
Speaker 1: as you said, down to write this book, I know
Speaker 1: it comes out of like years of experience and conversations
Speaker 1: and sort of thinking that you've done. But what would
Speaker 1: you say with the main things that you learned, what
Speaker 1: was surprised by or kind of discovered in the process
Speaker 1: of even writing a book like this?
Speaker 2: Yeah, so interesting. Left. When I first started writing this book,
Speaker 2: I was writing it, I thought I was going to
Speaker 2: write it to people to help them have conversations with
Speaker 2: people in pain. That's how I went into it. When
Speaker 2: I sent the proposal in, my friend challenged me. She said, Lisa,
Speaker 2: you can't write about pain and not write about your own.
Speaker 2: And so I was surprised at how vulnerable this book
Speaker 2: turned out to be. Yeah, I'm a very private person
Speaker 2: that I'm hiding anything. I'm just naturally a private person
Speaker 2: and so but I felt like it was necessary for
Speaker 2: me to come out my comfort zone because it was
Speaker 2: necessary for a connection for people who have been traumatized
Speaker 2: and experienced deep hurts, that they didn't need me to
Speaker 2: talk at them, they needed me to talk with them.
Speaker 2: And I think I learned how vulnerable I could be
Speaker 2: in writing that I didn't anticipate when I first started
Speaker 2: writing this book.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I think that's that really resonates with my experience
Speaker 1: as well. That I feel like, especially if we're writing
Speaker 1: about the questions that are at the heart of human
Speaker 1: experience and that really impact people's not just their sort
Speaker 1: of theoretical ideas about things, but actually their their lived experience.
Speaker 1: That I mean, I certainly feel like I need to
Speaker 1: kind of put myself into my books for better not
Speaker 1: because I'm like especially interesting or whatever, but just because, Yeah,
Speaker 1: as you point out, you can more like sit alongside somebody.
Speaker 1: But it is a weird and vulnerable thing. I mean,
Speaker 1: I feel like I've found enough out there that you know,
Speaker 1: people I've never met, know all sorts of stuff about
Speaker 1: me that I you know, my closest friends and have
Speaker 1: known like five years ago. It's set of slightly slightly alarming,
Speaker 1: but feels, I think, feels ultimately worth it. If if
Speaker 1: we're able to to meaningfully help or encourage any you know,
Speaker 1: other brothers and sisters or people who who may have
Speaker 1: once been part of churches or identified as Christian, and
Speaker 1: there now thinking, do you know what I feel like,
Speaker 1: I've just been too hard and I don't I don't
Speaker 1: have the faith or hope or or motivation to continue.
Speaker 1: If you were talking sort of directly now to somebody
Speaker 1: in that position, Lisa, like maybe someone who grew up
Speaker 1: in the church or spend a period of time as
Speaker 1: part of a church, and then, for one reason or another,
Speaker 1: has come to the conclusion that like, actually their faith
Speaker 1: is disappointing them so much that they they don't want
Speaker 1: to be a follower of Jesus anymore. They they want
Speaker 1: to distance themselves, Like maybe there's some other way of
Speaker 1: finding hope and meaning and purpose in this world. Would
Speaker 1: you what would you want to say to that person
Speaker 1: Nata listening to us now, Yeah.
Speaker 2: I would want to if I was sitting with them,
Speaker 2: I would spend some time listening to them, but I
Speaker 2: also would encourage them to wrestle with God. I end
Speaker 2: each chapter with a prayer, and it's a real meant
Speaker 2: to be a vulnerable prayer, like to help them frame
Speaker 2: what wrestling with God looks like. In each pain point
Speaker 2: and one of the prayers, I can't think of which
Speaker 2: one is. Like God, I don't I don't even know
Speaker 2: if you're truth, I mean, if you're read on anymore.
Speaker 2: I don't know if this is all made up. This
Speaker 2: is like a figment of my imagination. But I'm going
Speaker 2: to give you one more chance to prove yourself to me.
Speaker 2: And I think going to God and saying laying all
Speaker 2: your cards on the table, like I've just I'm so broken.
Speaker 2: I have no idea if I should trust anything I've
Speaker 2: been taught in church, anything I've read in the Bible.
Speaker 2: It all just seems made up to me. Your people
Speaker 2: don't seem to actually really practice what they preach. And
Speaker 2: I've been so devastated by hurts and traumas in my
Speaker 2: life that I see no way that this is true,
Speaker 2: that you love me, that you're there and laying all
Speaker 2: your cards on the table to God. I think it's
Speaker 2: one of the most transformative things we can do. Several
Speaker 2: years ago, a little over two years ago, I implement
Speaker 2: it centering prayer in my life, and it's really thirty
Speaker 2: minutes of silence that I do every day before God,
Speaker 2: laying it all out, and the transformative thing that's happened
Speaker 2: in my heart through that, the hurts and frustration and
Speaker 2: feeling like God, I don't want to do this anymore,
Speaker 2: all have been helped in those moments where I'm wrestling
Speaker 2: with God. And I believe that God meets us in
Speaker 2: our honesty in deep, profound ways. And so I would
Speaker 2: just challenge those who are on the fence and walk
Speaker 2: away to lay all your cards on the table before God,
Speaker 2: even if you're like am I talking to an imaginary person?
Speaker 2: Give God a chance to help you wrestle through all
Speaker 2: your frustrations with him. And sometimes we have so much
Speaker 2: bottled up because we can't. We're like, I can't tell
Speaker 2: God this, He'll strike me down if I vent to him.
Speaker 2: I tell him that I don't like him, or I'm
Speaker 2: mad at him, or I resent him. But he's he's
Speaker 2: able to handle all of those things. I remember I
Speaker 2: was in the therapy session two years ago when I
Speaker 2: was in deep like no, this was actually twenty twenty
Speaker 2: into twenty twenty, maybe going into twenty twenty one, just
Speaker 2: frustrated so much. It happened losing my mentor my grandfather,
Speaker 2: just being overwhelmed by ministry and not having structure a
Speaker 2: devotional life like I needed to because I was overworking
Speaker 2: and I just burned out. And I remember in therapy,
Speaker 2: my therapy said how do you feel about God? And
Speaker 2: I said, I resent Him? And the words ran out
Speaker 2: of my mouth faster than I could catch him. And
Speaker 2: the more I started to process that with the Lord,
Speaker 2: the freer I became. And so I think that we
Speaker 2: sometimes just have so much pent up frustration towards God,
Speaker 2: not towards we have been a frustration towards the people God,
Speaker 2: but we don't often realize how much pin up frustration
Speaker 2: we have towards God. And this book, I believe, gives
Speaker 2: people the freedom and to wrestle with Him on the
Speaker 2: things that He's allowed in our lives that we don't like.
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's interesting hearing you talk about that. It's making
Speaker 1: me think of a number of the psalms where David
Speaker 1: often is crying out to the Lord. And sometimes it's
Speaker 1: in ways where you sort of think, oh, like David
Speaker 1: should have kind of cleaned that up before he before
Speaker 1: he prayed that prayer, or and certainly before it ever
Speaker 1: made its way into the Bible. You know, if David's saying, like, Lord,
Speaker 1: where are you? What are you doing? Why aren't you
Speaker 1: helping me? Have you forgotten me? Like I think you
Speaker 1: have forgot like the crying out that comes from from
Speaker 1: desperation and her and that we are we're given words
Speaker 1: in the scriptures to like voice that that actually I'm
Speaker 1: in a I think one of the things I'd encourage
Speaker 1: someone to do is like pick up the Book of
Speaker 1: Psalms and start reading, because you'll see you'll see a
Speaker 1: whole lot of help of hope and praise to God
Speaker 1: and join God's salvation. And you'll see a whole lot
Speaker 1: of pain and frustration and like doubt and crying out
Speaker 1: and not knowing and confusion and like all all the
Speaker 1: things feeling submerged and drowning, and like your enemies are
Speaker 1: just winning all the time, and how can this be?
Speaker 1: How can this be happening? If if you're following the Lord,
Speaker 1: and I think sometimes seeing those words, you know, literally
Speaker 1: slap bang in the middle of the Bible. You know,
Speaker 1: if you open your Bible, if you grab a Bible
Speaker 1: and seat of open it up right in the middle,
Speaker 1: you're probably in the Book of Psalms and seeing some
Speaker 1: of that and to be like, oh, it's not that
Speaker 1: that relating to the Lord ends there, but that actually
Speaker 1: it's we can't hide anything from Jesus anyway, So like
Speaker 1: pretending that we can, and like nursing feelings or thoughts
Speaker 1: that is if as if he doesn't already see them
Speaker 1: as is foolish. But really to to be able to
Speaker 1: say like, this is where I am, this is how
Speaker 1: I'm feeling, this is I don't understand, I'm struggling to
Speaker 1: believe and crying out in the midst of that, I
Speaker 1: think is yeah, kind of can can help us come unstuck?
Speaker 1: I guess And if we're if we felt stuck in
Speaker 1: faith at least it's been a joy to chat with
Speaker 1: you and hear some more about your your work since
Speaker 1: I think it was was it two years ago that
Speaker 1: we first And if you're someone listening to this and
Speaker 1: some of what Lisa said as especially resonated with you,
Speaker 1: grab a copy of her book, When Faith Disappoints the
Speaker 1: gap between what we believe and what we experience. You
Speaker 1: could also check out Jude three project online if if
Speaker 1: you wanted to get connected with some of the resources
Speaker 1: that have been developed there. You guys have been listening
Speaker 1: to the Confriendly Christianity Podcast. You can follow us on Twitter,
Speaker 1: slash x, and Instagram that you can leave a review
Speaker 1: on iTunes if you'd like to mention a topic that
Speaker 1: you'd love for us to explore in future, or even
Speaker 1: a guest that you'd love to for me to chat
Speaker 1: with in future, And especially if you're someone today who
Speaker 1: is feeling some of the pain that Lisa has been referencing,
Speaker 1: feeling some of the disappointment, and that I will pray
Speaker 1: for you this week. I don't know your name, but
Speaker 1: Jesus does, and I would love to just spend some
Speaker 1: time this week praying for you, guys.