WEBVTT 1 00:00:13.720 --> 00:00:16.359 You are listening to the con Frondly Christianity podcast, and 2 00:00:16.440 --> 00:00:19.160 today I'm welcoming back one of the guests from our 3 00:00:19.280 --> 00:00:21.519 first ever season of our podcast, So those who've been 4 00:00:21.559 --> 00:00:26.039 listening from the very beginning, we'll remember Lisa Fields. Lisa 5 00:00:26.160 --> 00:00:29.280 is a Christian apologist who merges her deep biblical knowledge 6 00:00:29.280 --> 00:00:32.240 with her heartfelt mission to share God's love. She's been 7 00:00:32.280 --> 00:00:35.280 recognized by Christianity Today for her impactful work in the 8 00:00:35.280 --> 00:00:39.840 African American community, and she's produced two documentaries, Unspoken and 9 00:00:40.039 --> 00:00:43.600 Juneteenth Faith and Freedom. Lisa is the CEO of Jude 10 00:00:43.600 --> 00:00:46.719 three Project and the author of the new book When 11 00:00:46.759 --> 00:00:50.320 Faith Disappoints the gap between what we believe and what 12 00:00:50.359 --> 00:00:53.200 we experience. Lisa, thank you so much for joining me again. 13 00:00:53.640 --> 00:00:56.359 Thank you for having me. Rebecca, it's joy for those. 14 00:00:56.240 --> 00:00:58.920 Who aren't yet familiar with your ministry. I'd love first 15 00:00:58.920 --> 00:01:00.719 for you to give us a little bit of a 16 00:01:00.759 --> 00:01:05.920 taste of what Jude three Project is about, and yeah, 17 00:01:05.920 --> 00:01:09.599 what that project's been working on and how people could 18 00:01:09.920 --> 00:01:10.599 find out more. 19 00:01:10.799 --> 00:01:14.200 Yeah, yeah, Well. Jud three is a Christian apologetics organization 20 00:01:14.400 --> 00:01:19.040 dedicated to helping Black Christians know what they believe and 21 00:01:19.079 --> 00:01:21.120 why they believe it, and we do that through a 22 00:01:21.239 --> 00:01:25.120 number of ways. Of the documentaries you just highlighted June 23 00:01:25.200 --> 00:01:30.760 teenth and Unspoken, we have curriculum, online courses, a number 24 00:01:30.799 --> 00:01:36.760 of other things like podcasts. We have multimedia series such 25 00:01:36.799 --> 00:01:38.200 as Why I Don't Go when I sit down with 26 00:01:38.239 --> 00:01:40.319 young adults who left the faith. And we have our 27 00:01:40.400 --> 00:01:45.480 national conference Courageous Conversations that has happens annually that merges 28 00:01:46.120 --> 00:01:51.879 black scholars, professors, pastors, thought leaders together from conservative and 29 00:01:51.920 --> 00:01:56.239 progressive spaces for conversations around conversations that are relevant for 30 00:01:56.280 --> 00:01:59.840 the culture, such as the exclusivity of Jesus, the trustworthinians 31 00:01:59.840 --> 00:02:04.120 of the Bible, sexuality. It runs the gamut of conversations 32 00:02:04.120 --> 00:02:05.319 that we've held. 33 00:02:05.640 --> 00:02:08.879 And what was it that first motivated you to want 34 00:02:08.919 --> 00:02:11.879 to found the organization and get involved with that particular 35 00:02:12.120 --> 00:02:14.759 sort of segment of the mission of the church. 36 00:02:15.360 --> 00:02:19.479 Yeah, it was my undergrad experience taking a class New Testament. 37 00:02:19.919 --> 00:02:22.879 Our textbook was bar Ermit in terms of New Testament, 38 00:02:23.080 --> 00:02:26.000 and that was the first time I had really questioned 39 00:02:26.479 --> 00:02:30.680 my faith, questioned the scriptures in particular, And that was 40 00:02:30.719 --> 00:02:32.960 when my father, who is a pastor, introduced me to 41 00:02:33.000 --> 00:02:38.360 apologetics and getting apologetic apologist perspective on what I was 42 00:02:38.800 --> 00:02:41.400 navigating in class. The reliability of the Bible and things 43 00:02:41.400 --> 00:02:44.080 of that nature really helped me navigate that class. But 44 00:02:44.159 --> 00:02:47.120 as I got more immersion in apologetics, I didn't see 45 00:02:47.159 --> 00:02:51.719 any African Americans leading and I wanted to do something 46 00:02:51.759 --> 00:02:55.080 about that. And so that was kind of the genesis 47 00:02:55.120 --> 00:02:58.000 of me thinking about what it looks like for me 48 00:02:58.120 --> 00:03:02.879 to help black churches and Black Christians and black skeptics 49 00:03:03.199 --> 00:03:07.400 wrestle through hard questions about the Bible and about God. 50 00:03:07.680 --> 00:03:11.080 And that kind of led me on the journey and 51 00:03:11.120 --> 00:03:13.400 eventually I would started you through project. Yeah. 52 00:03:13.439 --> 00:03:17.599 Yeah, that's fascinating. Yeah. My understanding is that in the US, 53 00:03:17.759 --> 00:03:21.039 Black Americans are disproportionately likely to have some form of 54 00:03:21.120 --> 00:03:23.879 Christian background, and actually when I was more likely to 55 00:03:23.919 --> 00:03:27.199 actually still be very much involved in Christian churches and 56 00:03:27.639 --> 00:03:31.759 to hold sort of core biblical beliefs, what is it 57 00:03:31.800 --> 00:03:34.639 would you say, as you've sort of been involved in 58 00:03:34.639 --> 00:03:37.520 that particular kind of ministry in the last several years, 59 00:03:37.560 --> 00:03:40.240 thinking about maybe some of the questions that folks might 60 00:03:40.280 --> 00:03:42.960 have if they've been raised in the context of the 61 00:03:43.000 --> 00:03:45.520 Black Church in America versus you know, folks who might 62 00:03:45.759 --> 00:03:48.479 have been raised in other kinds of churches, Like, what 63 00:03:48.520 --> 00:03:52.759 are the biggest sort of questions I guess or concerns 64 00:03:52.800 --> 00:03:55.639 that folks have who have that particular background. 65 00:03:55.879 --> 00:03:58.319 The biggest question is is Christian and white men's religion? 66 00:03:58.639 --> 00:04:02.560 That's the question that we have to answer more often 67 00:04:02.560 --> 00:04:05.520 than not in our context. Should I trust this faith 68 00:04:05.560 --> 00:04:07.639 of faith that was given to a lot of our 69 00:04:07.680 --> 00:04:12.039 ancestors through their slave masters and so, and the faith 70 00:04:12.120 --> 00:04:16.160 the slave masters gave their slaves was very a very 71 00:04:16.199 --> 00:04:20.639 contaminated version, a very incorrect version in a lot of ways, 72 00:04:21.079 --> 00:04:24.160 and so kind of reframing that for people who were like, Hey, 73 00:04:24.759 --> 00:04:28.079 I'm thinking about this, Should I trust this Bible? Should 74 00:04:28.120 --> 00:04:29.879 I trust this book? Because it was used as a 75 00:04:29.920 --> 00:04:34.600 tool of oppression? That's the questions we have to help people. 76 00:04:35.000 --> 00:04:37.319 That's the main question that we have to help people 77 00:04:37.319 --> 00:04:40.560 walk through when we're dealing with apologetics in my contexts. 78 00:04:40.680 --> 00:04:43.439 Yeah, that's interesting. Yeah, for those not familiar with this 79 00:04:43.720 --> 00:04:47.360 particular sort of area of history. One of the really 80 00:04:47.399 --> 00:04:49.879 sort of startling things that I discovered as a sort 81 00:04:49.879 --> 00:04:52.839 of looking into the history that you're referencing there is 82 00:04:53.360 --> 00:04:56.040 the way in which the Bible was like specifically edited, 83 00:04:56.600 --> 00:04:58.600 like the whole sections of the Bible were cut out, 84 00:04:58.720 --> 00:05:01.519 and the areas of the Bible like put off limits 85 00:05:01.720 --> 00:05:04.439 for black people living in America to have access to 86 00:05:04.480 --> 00:05:08.000 you because it was like, oh, if we actually let 87 00:05:08.040 --> 00:05:12.240 people who are currently enslaved see what they're you know what, 88 00:05:12.519 --> 00:05:14.360 the whole of the Bible says, we're going to be 89 00:05:14.399 --> 00:05:16.279 in all sorts of trouble. Like it's sort of kind 90 00:05:16.279 --> 00:05:19.120 of telling I guess that the Bible had to be 91 00:05:19.160 --> 00:05:22.439 so carefully edited and that often people were even like 92 00:05:22.519 --> 00:05:25.759 preventing folks from learning to read because it was far 93 00:05:25.759 --> 00:05:28.480 too dangerous to put an actual like copy of God's 94 00:05:28.480 --> 00:05:30.639 word into the hands of people you're trying to oppress 95 00:05:30.639 --> 00:05:33.240 and for them not to realize, oh Jesus is on 96 00:05:33.279 --> 00:05:36.319 my side and not on your side. So very very 97 00:05:36.399 --> 00:05:38.959 quickly there, So tell us these your recent book, which 98 00:05:38.959 --> 00:05:40.800 I think just came out this summer, is that right? 99 00:05:41.639 --> 00:05:44.040 Tell us what motivated you to want to write that 100 00:05:44.079 --> 00:05:47.040 book and what are the particular kinds of questions and 101 00:05:47.079 --> 00:05:48.920 concerns that you're wanting to address. 102 00:05:48.959 --> 00:05:52.399 There, Yeah, the book When Faith Disappoints. And it's funny 103 00:05:52.399 --> 00:05:54.399 because everyone was like, oh, I didn't expect this to 104 00:05:54.399 --> 00:05:56.920 be your first book. We thought you would do something 105 00:05:57.399 --> 00:06:01.600 that was more classical or traditional posts. But as I'm 106 00:06:01.680 --> 00:06:05.040 just having conversations with people who left the faith, people 107 00:06:05.079 --> 00:06:08.399 who were skeptical by the faith, I noticed a pattern 108 00:06:08.839 --> 00:06:11.279 that a lot of it had to do with pain 109 00:06:11.920 --> 00:06:15.399 at the core. Now, there were intellectual questions at the start, 110 00:06:15.800 --> 00:06:18.360 but once you listen to them long enough, it always 111 00:06:18.480 --> 00:06:21.199 led to pain for the most part, more often than not. 112 00:06:21.759 --> 00:06:23.680 And so I was like, what does it mean for 113 00:06:23.800 --> 00:06:25.759 me to write to the root of the issue and 114 00:06:25.800 --> 00:06:28.319 not to just the fruit of the issue. If we're 115 00:06:28.319 --> 00:06:32.000 starting this conversation about evolution and faith, but we ended 116 00:06:32.040 --> 00:06:35.600 on you prayed for your mom to be healed and 117 00:06:35.639 --> 00:06:39.519 she died of cancer. Like, what is the starting point here? 118 00:06:39.959 --> 00:06:43.199 And as I started to have more and more conversations 119 00:06:43.199 --> 00:06:47.240 with people that were wrestling with God, pain was just 120 00:06:47.279 --> 00:06:51.920 the overarching thing. And so people felt disappointed, and not 121 00:06:52.720 --> 00:06:55.639 just being disappointed with people. It's one thing churchard is 122 00:06:55.959 --> 00:06:58.680 one thing, but being disappointed with God, to me is 123 00:06:58.720 --> 00:07:03.120 a whole nother thing. Because even sometimes the onset of 124 00:07:03.399 --> 00:07:07.519 our complaints with people, really, if we dig back, it's like, God, 125 00:07:07.560 --> 00:07:10.199 why did you even let this scenario happen in the 126 00:07:10.199 --> 00:07:13.480 first place, Like, I'm mad at this person, But God, 127 00:07:14.040 --> 00:07:16.800 you are all powerful on knowing and all loving, Like 128 00:07:16.839 --> 00:07:19.319 why did you even let this even take place with 129 00:07:19.399 --> 00:07:22.519 this person? So the issue is not solely with the person, 130 00:07:22.560 --> 00:07:26.120 It's with God. And so it was like, how can 131 00:07:26.160 --> 00:07:28.160 I write and minister to the hearts of people that 132 00:07:28.199 --> 00:07:31.439 are wrestling with doubt? And I will deal with some 133 00:07:31.920 --> 00:07:36.959 traditional apologetic questions throughout us. There's sprinkled in throughout, but 134 00:07:37.000 --> 00:07:39.000 at the core, let's get to the heart of the issue. 135 00:07:39.279 --> 00:07:42.319 Because if we get to the root of the issue 136 00:07:42.360 --> 00:07:45.360 and I minister and share the Gospel to that issue, 137 00:07:45.439 --> 00:07:49.120 I think we'll have more attraction in people giving God 138 00:07:49.720 --> 00:07:53.720 another ear or rethinking the faith. And so that was 139 00:07:53.839 --> 00:07:56.879 really the reason I wrote this, because I felt like 140 00:07:57.519 --> 00:07:59.959 I want to minister to the heart of broken people 141 00:08:00.240 --> 00:08:04.279 been disappointment and I want to share my own disappointments 142 00:08:04.360 --> 00:08:08.360 because the disappointments that you experience are some of the 143 00:08:08.360 --> 00:08:12.720 disappointments that everybody experiences in this life. It may look 144 00:08:12.759 --> 00:08:16.279 different and may take different framings, but we all wrestle 145 00:08:16.319 --> 00:08:19.240 with disappointment. And so the way to get through that 146 00:08:19.279 --> 00:08:22.199 disappointment is to wrestle with God. And when they've disappointed, 147 00:08:22.279 --> 00:08:25.560 I believe gives people the opportunity to wrestle with God 148 00:08:25.600 --> 00:08:26.560 and to normalize it. 149 00:08:26.720 --> 00:08:29.800 Yeah, that's fascinating what you use the expression there of 150 00:08:30.360 --> 00:08:33.200 applying the Gospel to the sort of heart of their 151 00:08:33.519 --> 00:08:35.399 their concern. So tell us a little bit more about 152 00:08:35.399 --> 00:08:37.600 that for those who maybe aren't familiar with even what 153 00:08:37.600 --> 00:08:41.639 the gospel is or how it might apply to somebody's situation. 154 00:08:41.720 --> 00:08:43.279 If they feel like, do you know what I prayed 155 00:08:43.279 --> 00:08:45.320 for something and I didn't get the answer that I 156 00:08:45.360 --> 00:08:47.759 was hoping for, or like, or I invested so much 157 00:08:47.799 --> 00:08:51.360 in this church community and then I felt profoundly disappointed 158 00:08:51.360 --> 00:08:54.000 by the treatment that I received, or you know, the 159 00:08:54.080 --> 00:08:57.240 various different forms that that can take. What would it 160 00:08:57.279 --> 00:08:59.840 look like for you to apply the gospel to those. 161 00:09:00.919 --> 00:09:03.799 Yeah, one thing that I love about the Gospel is 162 00:09:03.840 --> 00:09:07.000 the incarnational nature of it and what I mean by that. 163 00:09:07.120 --> 00:09:11.720 Jesus came, took on flesh and dwelt among us, and 164 00:09:11.799 --> 00:09:17.360 we don't often think about what it took for Jesus 165 00:09:17.799 --> 00:09:21.919 to humble himself on that level and to take on 166 00:09:22.080 --> 00:09:27.000 flesh live amongst us for thirty years and we don't 167 00:09:27.000 --> 00:09:29.000 have much of what he said. It wasn't his time 168 00:09:29.039 --> 00:09:34.120 to highlight who he was, and he listened to our concerns. 169 00:09:34.159 --> 00:09:38.000 He interacted, He understood what it was like to be us, 170 00:09:38.080 --> 00:09:42.080 and in his understanding, now he's able to intercede for 171 00:09:42.159 --> 00:09:44.639 us on a deep level. He is our high priest 172 00:09:44.679 --> 00:09:48.960 because he can identify with the struggles that we have 173 00:09:49.159 --> 00:09:52.799 and do navigate on a daily basis in a unique 174 00:09:52.840 --> 00:09:56.120 way that he wasn't able to identify with before he 175 00:09:56.759 --> 00:09:59.879 came to earth. And I think as that is what 176 00:10:00.080 --> 00:10:04.240 this book is is very incarnational. It's like sitting with 177 00:10:04.320 --> 00:10:08.240 people in their hurts telling them that I hurt too. 178 00:10:08.840 --> 00:10:12.559 Jesus says, like through the Gospels we see that he 179 00:10:12.639 --> 00:10:20.000 hurts too. He experiences anxieties, frustrations, has difficult conversations. And 180 00:10:20.039 --> 00:10:23.120 so in this book that I show like the way 181 00:10:23.840 --> 00:10:27.120 that you suffer, I suffer, and the way that you suffer, 182 00:10:27.240 --> 00:10:32.559 Jesus suffer that he doesn't. He doesn't leave the comforts 183 00:10:32.639 --> 00:10:36.480 of heaven to live this perfect life. He has a life. 184 00:10:36.519 --> 00:10:39.360 He is perfectness. So don't get me wrong. He's without saying, 185 00:10:39.759 --> 00:10:42.600 but his life is full of challenges. It's not just 186 00:10:42.639 --> 00:10:46.399 the easy road. So he is sinless, but his life 187 00:10:46.440 --> 00:10:52.440 still has challenges. And because if God doesn't escape challenges, 188 00:10:52.840 --> 00:10:56.240 then us as humans will not like many other inflictions 189 00:10:56.279 --> 00:10:58.879 of the righteous, the Lord will deliver us out of 190 00:10:58.919 --> 00:11:01.799 them all. We don't escape suffering, but we do have 191 00:11:01.840 --> 00:11:05.519 a suffering Savior that brings us comfort in our own suffering. 192 00:11:06.000 --> 00:11:08.639 And I think that's what this book offers, that the 193 00:11:08.679 --> 00:11:12.200 Gospel was a message that is not like where you 194 00:11:12.440 --> 00:11:17.960 are escaping every hardship in this world. The gospel of 195 00:11:18.039 --> 00:11:22.919 Jesus came and died experience deep suffering because he wanted 196 00:11:23.000 --> 00:11:26.639 us to be reconciled back to the Father. And so 197 00:11:27.360 --> 00:11:29.200 I think that is some of the ways kind of 198 00:11:29.200 --> 00:11:31.919 our frame it in the book to let people know 199 00:11:31.960 --> 00:11:35.159 that their suffering isn't normal, that it is a suffering 200 00:11:35.240 --> 00:11:37.639 is a part of the walk of a believer. And 201 00:11:38.279 --> 00:11:41.519 the gospel message is that our Savior suffered, and so 202 00:11:41.679 --> 00:11:43.720 because he suffered, we will suffer as well. 203 00:11:45.120 --> 00:11:47.559 You know, people sometimes have the idea that when we're 204 00:11:47.600 --> 00:11:51.399 talking about God, we're talking about a sort of remote deity. 205 00:11:51.559 --> 00:11:54.200 Somehow he was like distant from the day to day 206 00:11:54.240 --> 00:11:57.519 of your all my life, or especially from the really 207 00:11:57.600 --> 00:12:01.000 dark valleys that we might walk through. In actual fact, 208 00:12:01.080 --> 00:12:03.600 that one of the sort of crazy things about the 209 00:12:03.639 --> 00:12:05.759 Christian message is that actually the God who made all 210 00:12:05.799 --> 00:12:08.600 the universe not only came to live among us, but 211 00:12:08.639 --> 00:12:12.879 also died the most horrific death. Like that the suffering 212 00:12:12.919 --> 00:12:16.360 of Jesus is at the center, as you were pointing out, 213 00:12:16.399 --> 00:12:18.480 it's like at the center of the Christian message. And 214 00:12:18.519 --> 00:12:21.919 so there is no no sense in which he doesn't 215 00:12:21.960 --> 00:12:25.960 understand and he can't and won't enter in with us 216 00:12:25.960 --> 00:12:28.840 into our suffering because actually that's like precisely what he did. 217 00:12:28.919 --> 00:12:32.440 He carried all our our sicknesses and are sort of 218 00:12:32.639 --> 00:12:35.440 sorrows upon himself, is one of the ways that the 219 00:12:35.960 --> 00:12:38.320 Bible puts it. And so I think that's like a 220 00:12:38.360 --> 00:12:42.399 really actually unique and beautiful element of the Christian story 221 00:12:42.879 --> 00:12:45.120 that people I think people sometimes think, well, you know, 222 00:12:45.159 --> 00:12:48.480 I used to believe in the God of Christianity, but 223 00:12:48.480 --> 00:12:50.159 then like suffering came into my life, and now I 224 00:12:50.240 --> 00:12:53.519 just can't believe anymore. And I can sort of understand 225 00:12:53.519 --> 00:12:55.759 where that comes from, and that suffering can like really 226 00:12:55.840 --> 00:12:59.559 deeply shake us. But at the same time, actually it's 227 00:12:59.639 --> 00:13:03.679 like uh, running away from the one thing that gives 228 00:13:03.759 --> 00:13:06.000 us hope in the middle of suffering, like the one 229 00:13:06.039 --> 00:13:10.120 place where our suffering might actually ultimately matter to the 230 00:13:10.120 --> 00:13:13.440 heart of God is the kind of Christian Christian message 231 00:13:13.480 --> 00:13:15.440 there walk us through a little bit, Lisa. I know 232 00:13:15.480 --> 00:13:18.320 in your book you sort of break down different areas 233 00:13:18.519 --> 00:13:21.679 of her that people might have experienced, and you sort 234 00:13:21.679 --> 00:13:25.720 of group them together under some interesting framework. So I'd 235 00:13:25.720 --> 00:13:27.679 love for you to give us just a sample of 236 00:13:27.679 --> 00:13:29.840 that for those who might be interested to grab the 237 00:13:29.840 --> 00:13:31.320 book and dig in more. 238 00:13:31.519 --> 00:13:36.600 So, I break it down our pain into seven categories. Personhood, 239 00:13:36.799 --> 00:13:41.080 that's identity. Peace everybody's trying to find, especially in our 240 00:13:41.120 --> 00:13:44.840 culture today, Peace, the pain, point of provision, like God, 241 00:13:44.879 --> 00:13:48.519 will my needs be met? Pleasure? How can I experience joy? 242 00:13:49.200 --> 00:13:53.440 Many people get into addictions because they're trying to find 243 00:13:54.039 --> 00:13:59.200 some kind of pleasure in a life that is deeply painful. Purpose, 244 00:13:59.559 --> 00:14:03.960 Why I am I hear? Protection? Like who will protect me? 245 00:14:04.279 --> 00:14:08.960 In a life of challenge? Many people have experienced abuse 246 00:14:09.600 --> 00:14:12.759 and they're like, why would a loving, all powerful God 247 00:14:12.799 --> 00:14:17.639 allow this to happen? And then power. Sometimes people pursue 248 00:14:17.679 --> 00:14:21.600 power because they felt so powerless, and they're like, I 249 00:14:21.639 --> 00:14:24.960 don't want this pain to happen again, So let me 250 00:14:25.080 --> 00:14:27.840 be in charge. Because if I'm in charge and I 251 00:14:27.840 --> 00:14:32.919 can take control, then I can avoid painful experiences. Now 252 00:14:32.919 --> 00:14:37.759 we know that's not the reality, but sometimes when we're traumatized, 253 00:14:37.799 --> 00:14:41.080 we look for things to cope and try to free 254 00:14:41.120 --> 00:14:43.720 ourselves from the hurt and the pain we're in. And 255 00:14:43.759 --> 00:14:45.919 so those are the ways I frame it and break 256 00:14:45.960 --> 00:14:48.440 down those pain points. And I love that they all 257 00:14:48.480 --> 00:14:54.080 start with pee because I like but yeah, yeah, that 258 00:14:54.240 --> 00:14:56.240 is some of the ways that I think has been 259 00:14:56.279 --> 00:14:59.000 helpful to frame it for people. And it's a theme 260 00:14:59.039 --> 00:15:03.240 that I've seen just in doing this work for many years. 261 00:15:03.480 --> 00:15:05.360 Yeah, and I know one of the ways in which 262 00:15:05.399 --> 00:15:08.120 people have sometimes responded to the kinds of challenges that 263 00:15:08.200 --> 00:15:10.960 you're you're highlighting there is by preaching essentially a kind 264 00:15:10.960 --> 00:15:16.720 of prosperity gospel, like a aversion of Christianity, which says 265 00:15:17.200 --> 00:15:19.799 like if you if you only have faith, if you 266 00:15:19.799 --> 00:15:21.600 you know, put your trust in God, and maybe if 267 00:15:21.639 --> 00:15:24.039 you like often also like if you if you start 268 00:15:24.039 --> 00:15:25.879 giving enough money to your church or whatever, you know, 269 00:15:25.960 --> 00:15:27.679 whatever it is, like, there are certain things you can 270 00:15:27.799 --> 00:15:30.440 you can do that will then basically guarantee like you 271 00:15:30.480 --> 00:15:34.440 will have health and prosperity and like bad stuff won't 272 00:15:34.440 --> 00:15:37.600 happen to you anymore. So help us understand, like why 273 00:15:37.639 --> 00:15:39.480 why do you think that that message can be attractive 274 00:15:39.480 --> 00:15:42.919 to people? And how is it sort of very different 275 00:15:42.960 --> 00:15:47.000 from a biblical understanding of what the message with Jesus is. 276 00:15:47.639 --> 00:15:50.159 Yeah, I think it's attractive because it's like it's an 277 00:15:50.200 --> 00:15:54.159 easy fix that we're all looking for easy fixes, and 278 00:15:54.240 --> 00:15:57.440 it's a way to take control. Like people don't think 279 00:15:57.480 --> 00:15:59.960 of the prosperity gospel as a way to hake control, 280 00:16:00.200 --> 00:16:02.159 but I think it is in a sense of like 281 00:16:02.759 --> 00:16:06.720 if I do this, this will happen. You kind of 282 00:16:06.759 --> 00:16:10.799 get control. If I give enough, then I will have 283 00:16:11.000 --> 00:16:13.360 this outcome. So it's a way to control my life 284 00:16:13.879 --> 00:16:17.759 by doing good things. The problem is the person who 285 00:16:17.799 --> 00:16:24.759 lived a sinless life suffered, and so he did everything right. 286 00:16:25.480 --> 00:16:28.519 There was nothing wrong, no sin in him, and so 287 00:16:29.279 --> 00:16:33.600 it is really biblically dishonest to look at the text 288 00:16:33.720 --> 00:16:37.759 and say God will bless you whenever you pray, or 289 00:16:37.799 --> 00:16:41.600 God will answer every prayer. Jesus in the garden said, 290 00:16:41.600 --> 00:16:44.960 if it's possible, can you remove this cup from me? 291 00:16:45.159 --> 00:16:47.679 Like he didn't want to suffer, but he understood, not 292 00:16:47.840 --> 00:16:49.600 my will, but God will be done, that this was 293 00:16:49.639 --> 00:16:53.159 the road that God had chosen for the salvation of humanity. 294 00:16:53.679 --> 00:16:56.639 And so if he didn't escape it, why do we 295 00:16:56.720 --> 00:17:00.279 think we will? And God is not even requiring did 296 00:17:00.320 --> 00:17:03.480 eye on a cross from most of us. We will 297 00:17:03.519 --> 00:17:07.400 never die on a cross, you know. But He is 298 00:17:07.920 --> 00:17:13.279 requiring that we navigate difficult conversations, difficult difficult lives on 299 00:17:13.359 --> 00:17:16.160 some level, and it's not every season. We have our 300 00:17:16.160 --> 00:17:20.160 peaks and valleys, but we cannot escape difficulty. And I 301 00:17:20.200 --> 00:17:22.920 think you know, in the Gospel message, we see like 302 00:17:23.160 --> 00:17:28.799 the most the perfect person that lived suffered, and that 303 00:17:29.359 --> 00:17:32.599 to me, that cancels out all prosperity teaching. 304 00:17:33.599 --> 00:17:36.960 Right, yeah, yeah, And he told his followers to expect 305 00:17:37.279 --> 00:17:39.200 that they would suffer as well, Like it's yeah, I mean, 306 00:17:39.240 --> 00:17:42.079 I think people don't have this idea that like, oh, 307 00:17:42.079 --> 00:17:44.279 if God really loved me, he could not intend for 308 00:17:44.319 --> 00:17:46.759 me to suffer. And yet I think when we open 309 00:17:47.200 --> 00:17:48.720 you can pick up pretty much any book in the 310 00:17:48.720 --> 00:17:52.160 Bible and find that that is not true. That actually 311 00:17:52.160 --> 00:17:55.839 often the people who are serving God most faithfully are 312 00:17:55.839 --> 00:17:58.240 the ones who are suffering the most. That we can't 313 00:17:58.279 --> 00:18:01.079 like draw this kind of correlation between the suffering that 314 00:18:01.119 --> 00:18:04.480 we experience and God's favor, which also, like on the 315 00:18:04.480 --> 00:18:06.920 flip side of that means that the fact that someone's 316 00:18:06.920 --> 00:18:10.680 suffering doesn't necessarily mean that they have like broadered on 317 00:18:10.680 --> 00:18:13.440 themselves by a particular sin. I mean, I feel like 318 00:18:13.480 --> 00:18:16.319 that's another way people can get caught up and misled 319 00:18:16.440 --> 00:18:19.559 is just to feel like, oh, because you know this 320 00:18:19.599 --> 00:18:21.359 thing is happening in my life, or because I'm having 321 00:18:21.359 --> 00:18:23.759 this like particular health problem or whatever it is, like 322 00:18:23.799 --> 00:18:26.119 that must be a sort of form of God's judgment 323 00:18:26.160 --> 00:18:28.400 on me. When you know, Jesus is very clear when 324 00:18:28.400 --> 00:18:31.160 he's asked that question directly about a man who is 325 00:18:31.359 --> 00:18:34.240 born blind, like did this guy sin or his parents? 326 00:18:34.240 --> 00:18:36.920 And Jesus is like, no, that's neither of those things, 327 00:18:36.960 --> 00:18:38.400 So that the glory of God will be revealed. I 328 00:18:38.440 --> 00:18:40.400 feel like we can kind of fall into that trap 329 00:18:40.440 --> 00:18:43.319 as well, in the midst of suffering, and that's not 330 00:18:43.440 --> 00:18:46.680 the The answer that we're given in Christianity is actually 331 00:18:47.240 --> 00:18:50.279 Jesus's death on a cross at the at the center 332 00:18:50.319 --> 00:18:52.839 of everything. What would you say, Lisa, I know, when 333 00:18:53.000 --> 00:18:55.680 when I sit down to write a book. They're often 334 00:18:56.240 --> 00:18:57.839 like pieces of it that I already kind of know 335 00:18:57.880 --> 00:19:00.240 exactly what I want to say, and other pieces is 336 00:19:00.279 --> 00:19:03.039 where I sort of learned as I go along, or 337 00:19:03.079 --> 00:19:06.400 like it's like I discover kind of what needs to 338 00:19:06.400 --> 00:19:08.640 be said in the process of writing it. And I'm curious, 339 00:19:08.839 --> 00:19:10.119 as you said, down to write this book, I know 340 00:19:10.200 --> 00:19:13.039 it comes out of like years of experience and conversations 341 00:19:13.160 --> 00:19:16.000 and sort of thinking that you've done. But what would 342 00:19:16.039 --> 00:19:19.079 you say with the main things that you learned, what 343 00:19:19.160 --> 00:19:21.119 was surprised by or kind of discovered in the process 344 00:19:21.160 --> 00:19:23.039 of even writing a book like this? 345 00:19:23.519 --> 00:19:27.559 Yeah, so interesting. Left. When I first started writing this book, 346 00:19:28.079 --> 00:19:30.839 I was writing it, I thought I was going to 347 00:19:30.880 --> 00:19:35.000 write it to people to help them have conversations with 348 00:19:35.160 --> 00:19:38.079 people in pain. That's how I went into it. When 349 00:19:38.079 --> 00:19:41.640 I sent the proposal in, my friend challenged me. She said, Lisa, 350 00:19:41.720 --> 00:19:44.839 you can't write about pain and not write about your own. 351 00:19:45.799 --> 00:19:49.920 And so I was surprised at how vulnerable this book 352 00:19:49.960 --> 00:19:52.720 turned out to be. Yeah, I'm a very private person 353 00:19:52.960 --> 00:19:56.200 that I'm hiding anything. I'm just naturally a private person 354 00:19:56.680 --> 00:19:59.440 and so but I felt like it was necessary for 355 00:19:59.480 --> 00:20:02.319 me to come out my comfort zone because it was 356 00:20:02.440 --> 00:20:07.039 necessary for a connection for people who have been traumatized 357 00:20:07.559 --> 00:20:11.119 and experienced deep hurts, that they didn't need me to 358 00:20:11.160 --> 00:20:13.400 talk at them, they needed me to talk with them. 359 00:20:13.559 --> 00:20:17.720 And I think I learned how vulnerable I could be 360 00:20:18.880 --> 00:20:22.480 in writing that I didn't anticipate when I first started 361 00:20:22.519 --> 00:20:23.279 writing this book. 362 00:20:24.240 --> 00:20:27.000 Yeah, I think that's that really resonates with my experience 363 00:20:27.039 --> 00:20:30.160 as well. That I feel like, especially if we're writing 364 00:20:30.160 --> 00:20:33.359 about the questions that are at the heart of human 365 00:20:33.400 --> 00:20:36.160 experience and that really impact people's not just their sort 366 00:20:36.160 --> 00:20:39.240 of theoretical ideas about things, but actually their their lived experience. 367 00:20:39.359 --> 00:20:42.400 That I mean, I certainly feel like I need to 368 00:20:42.480 --> 00:20:44.640 kind of put myself into my books for better not 369 00:20:44.680 --> 00:20:48.160 because I'm like especially interesting or whatever, but just because, Yeah, 370 00:20:48.200 --> 00:20:51.640 as you point out, you can more like sit alongside somebody. 371 00:20:52.119 --> 00:20:53.880 But it is a weird and vulnerable thing. I mean, 372 00:20:53.880 --> 00:20:56.160 I feel like I've found enough out there that you know, 373 00:20:56.160 --> 00:20:58.599 people I've never met, know all sorts of stuff about 374 00:20:58.599 --> 00:21:00.240 me that I you know, my closest friends and have 375 00:21:00.279 --> 00:21:03.480 known like five years ago. It's set of slightly slightly alarming, 376 00:21:03.519 --> 00:21:06.720 but feels, I think, feels ultimately worth it. If if 377 00:21:06.720 --> 00:21:10.559 we're able to to meaningfully help or encourage any you know, 378 00:21:10.640 --> 00:21:14.079 other brothers and sisters or people who who may have 379 00:21:14.960 --> 00:21:18.559 once been part of churches or identified as Christian, and 380 00:21:18.559 --> 00:21:20.599 there now thinking, do you know what I feel like, 381 00:21:21.240 --> 00:21:23.359 I've just been too hard and I don't I don't 382 00:21:23.359 --> 00:21:28.440 have the faith or hope or or motivation to continue. 383 00:21:28.599 --> 00:21:31.519 If you were talking sort of directly now to somebody 384 00:21:31.519 --> 00:21:34.680 in that position, Lisa, like maybe someone who grew up 385 00:21:34.680 --> 00:21:36.519 in the church or spend a period of time as 386 00:21:36.599 --> 00:21:39.400 part of a church, and then, for one reason or another, 387 00:21:39.759 --> 00:21:43.319 has come to the conclusion that like, actually their faith 388 00:21:43.400 --> 00:21:46.480 is disappointing them so much that they they don't want 389 00:21:46.519 --> 00:21:49.440 to be a follower of Jesus anymore. They they want 390 00:21:49.480 --> 00:21:52.759 to distance themselves, Like maybe there's some other way of 391 00:21:52.799 --> 00:21:56.000 finding hope and meaning and purpose in this world. Would 392 00:21:56.000 --> 00:21:57.759 you what would you want to say to that person 393 00:21:57.839 --> 00:22:01.200 Nata listening to us now, Yeah. 394 00:22:00.519 --> 00:22:03.240 I would want to if I was sitting with them, 395 00:22:03.279 --> 00:22:05.920 I would spend some time listening to them, but I 396 00:22:05.960 --> 00:22:10.160 also would encourage them to wrestle with God. I end 397 00:22:10.200 --> 00:22:14.240 each chapter with a prayer, and it's a real meant 398 00:22:14.240 --> 00:22:18.079 to be a vulnerable prayer, like to help them frame 399 00:22:18.160 --> 00:22:21.559 what wrestling with God looks like. In each pain point 400 00:22:21.680 --> 00:22:24.759 and one of the prayers, I can't think of which 401 00:22:24.759 --> 00:22:27.160