1 00:00:01,120 --> 00:00:04,160 Speaker 1: You're listening to the Mind Over Murder podcast. 2 00:00:06,000 --> 00:00:09,679 Speaker 2: My name is Bill Thomas. I'm a writer, consulting, producer, 3 00:00:09,720 --> 00:00:12,839 and now podcaster. I am now trying to use my 4 00:00:12,919 --> 00:00:15,800 experience as the brother of a murder victim to help 5 00:00:15,839 --> 00:00:18,600 other victims of violent crime. I'm working on a book 6 00:00:18,679 --> 00:00:21,440 on the unsolved Colonial Parkway murders, and I'm the co 7 00:00:21,519 --> 00:00:24,760 administrator of the Colonial Parkway Murders Facebook group together with 8 00:00:24,839 --> 00:00:25,519 Kristin Dilly. 9 00:00:26,079 --> 00:00:27,359 Speaker 3: My name is Kristin Dilly. 10 00:00:27,519 --> 00:00:31,199 Speaker 4: I'm a writer, a researcher, a teacher, and a victim's advocate, 11 00:00:31,359 --> 00:00:34,719 as well as the social media manager and co administrator 12 00:00:34,799 --> 00:00:37,799 for the Colonial Parkway Murders Facebook page with my partner 13 00:00:37,840 --> 00:00:39,079 in crime, Bill Thomas. 14 00:00:43,439 --> 00:00:45,039 Speaker 3: Welcome to Mind Over Murder. 15 00:00:45,159 --> 00:00:48,840 Speaker 2: I'm Kristin Dilly and I'm Bill Thomas. This is part 16 00:00:48,920 --> 00:00:53,280 two of our conversation with author Michael Butterfield, whose brand 17 00:00:53,320 --> 00:00:56,960 new book The Zodiac Killer, The Story of America's Most 18 00:00:57,000 --> 00:01:01,280 Elusive Murder, is just out. Now we pick up the 19 00:01:01,320 --> 00:01:06,840 conversation discussing the recent Netflix television special This is the 20 00:01:06,959 --> 00:01:11,799 Zodiac Speaking, So does that make you a fan or not? 21 00:01:12,280 --> 00:01:14,239 Speaker 5: Of that October. 22 00:01:13,719 --> 00:01:17,079 Speaker 2: Twenty twenty four series this is the Zodiac Speaking that 23 00:01:17,280 --> 00:01:21,079 was on Netflix that focused on Arthur Lee Allen and 24 00:01:21,159 --> 00:01:25,719 his pretty odd relationship with a woman and her children. 25 00:01:26,319 --> 00:01:29,519 Speaker 5: Yeah, I wouldn't say I'm a fan. I haven't seen it. 26 00:01:30,640 --> 00:01:32,599 And this might sound like an odd thing to say. 27 00:01:33,400 --> 00:01:36,519 I've been doing this for a long time. That means 28 00:01:36,560 --> 00:01:40,439 that I have seen a lot of theories over the years. 29 00:01:40,879 --> 00:01:43,599 A lot of people come forth with stories and things 30 00:01:43,719 --> 00:01:46,920 like that, and it makes you jaded in some ways 31 00:01:47,120 --> 00:01:51,400 because a lot of these things they're not what they've seen. Now. 32 00:01:51,760 --> 00:01:54,840 I haven't seen that because at a certain point in 33 00:01:54,879 --> 00:01:58,359 my life, I decided that I can't keep devoting hours 34 00:01:58,359 --> 00:02:01,760 and days of my life to reading and watching all 35 00:02:01,920 --> 00:02:05,480 these things that people come forward with. If I kept 36 00:02:05,519 --> 00:02:07,599 doing that, my life would be like what it used 37 00:02:07,599 --> 00:02:10,479 to be like. But I had no free time and 38 00:02:10,520 --> 00:02:14,039 I just can't let that dominate my life anymore. Now. 39 00:02:14,199 --> 00:02:16,919 Having said that, I probably should note that a couple 40 00:02:16,960 --> 00:02:20,080 of years before this documentary came out, I was contacted 41 00:02:20,120 --> 00:02:24,000 by somebody who said they were working with this trio 42 00:02:24,080 --> 00:02:27,800 of siblings who are featured in the show. They wanted 43 00:02:27,840 --> 00:02:31,560 me to essentially help them get a show produced about 44 00:02:31,599 --> 00:02:35,919 these claims. We had a zoom call and talked about things, 45 00:02:35,960 --> 00:02:39,159 and I clearly was not the best choice for them 46 00:02:39,319 --> 00:02:44,000 because of my skepticism and my history about this issue. 47 00:02:44,560 --> 00:02:47,800 But I always have. I'm very skeptical about people who 48 00:02:47,879 --> 00:02:52,680 come forward with stories decades later, even if they sound compelling. 49 00:02:53,199 --> 00:02:55,159 So I don't really know what else to say about 50 00:02:55,199 --> 00:02:58,240 that series, except I don't find it to be as 51 00:02:58,319 --> 00:03:01,759 compelling as other people do, knowing what I know about 52 00:03:01,759 --> 00:03:04,240 the claims that are made in the show and about 53 00:03:04,280 --> 00:03:07,520 what those claims that were made before the show. Now, 54 00:03:07,599 --> 00:03:10,159 obviously I had to tell them I don't think I'm 55 00:03:10,159 --> 00:03:12,639 a good pick for you, and they went and found 56 00:03:12,759 --> 00:03:15,639 somebody else to do that, and the show got made. 57 00:03:16,159 --> 00:03:18,120 But I think that's part and parcel to the way 58 00:03:18,120 --> 00:03:21,319 that the true crime genre is right now. I think 59 00:03:21,360 --> 00:03:27,800 that it's in some cases it's just irresponsible, just blatantly irresponsible, 60 00:03:27,919 --> 00:03:32,840 to give certain people a platform to espouse their theories 61 00:03:32,879 --> 00:03:35,560 and their ideas. And people have a right to their 62 00:03:35,639 --> 00:03:38,479 theories and their claims, but I don't think anybody has 63 00:03:38,520 --> 00:03:42,439 a right to be taken seriously without solid evidence. So 64 00:03:42,800 --> 00:03:45,240 when you have people who come forward with a story, 65 00:03:45,280 --> 00:03:48,759 that's great, that's a story. That's all it is. Until 66 00:03:48,800 --> 00:03:51,879 it's backed up by evidence, you really shouldn't give it 67 00:03:51,919 --> 00:03:55,639 any more credence than you would anything else. I do 68 00:03:55,719 --> 00:03:59,439 think it's odd that things have changed so much from 69 00:03:59,479 --> 00:04:02,080 the way they were thirty forty years ago. Back then, 70 00:04:02,159 --> 00:04:05,560 you'd have to convince an editor of a newspaper or 71 00:04:05,840 --> 00:04:08,680 a producer of a television show or something to give 72 00:04:08,719 --> 00:04:12,159 you a platform, and they'd have to agree to take 73 00:04:12,199 --> 00:04:15,280 the risk with you, and they often would avoid these 74 00:04:15,280 --> 00:04:17,680 things because they saw them as risky. They didn't want 75 00:04:17,680 --> 00:04:20,079 to get sued, they didn't want to be embarrassed. Now 76 00:04:20,120 --> 00:04:23,959 that doesn't mean that things didn't still get through, especially 77 00:04:24,000 --> 00:04:26,360 with people with their local news. They could get a 78 00:04:26,399 --> 00:04:29,560 lot of things on television that a major network wouldn't 79 00:04:29,560 --> 00:04:32,439 put on. But now, because of the interest in true 80 00:04:32,480 --> 00:04:36,720 crime and all of the streaming series and online platforms 81 00:04:36,720 --> 00:04:40,360 for shows, they need content, they need to come up 82 00:04:40,360 --> 00:04:44,040 with content, and so a lot of those rules or 83 00:04:44,120 --> 00:04:47,000 guidelines that used to govern those kinds of decisions have 84 00:04:47,079 --> 00:04:50,360 gone out the window now, and it seems that everybody 85 00:04:50,920 --> 00:04:54,800 thinks they're entitled to their fifteen seconds of infamy now, 86 00:04:55,399 --> 00:04:58,000 so a lot of these things just get put through 87 00:04:58,120 --> 00:05:01,199 get produced like the most data Injurious Animal of all 88 00:05:02,000 --> 00:05:06,199 guy who claimed it was his father. It's just absolutely 89 00:05:06,279 --> 00:05:13,480 absurd garbage, just unbelievable garbage that's already been debunked many 90 00:05:13,519 --> 00:05:16,360 different ways already. But I just saw the other day 91 00:05:16,360 --> 00:05:20,120 that they're making the movie out of it now, and 92 00:05:20,160 --> 00:05:22,160 it's what are you going to make a movie about it? 93 00:05:22,199 --> 00:05:25,160 About how a guy put forth a bunch of garbage 94 00:05:25,160 --> 00:05:28,000 and made a lot of money about it. That's essentially 95 00:05:28,040 --> 00:05:33,639 the story there. There's no Zodiac story there. Some years back, 96 00:05:33,839 --> 00:05:37,519 I was asked to participate in the Netflix series about 97 00:05:37,600 --> 00:05:40,839 that theory, and immediately I was like, I don't want 98 00:05:40,879 --> 00:05:43,920 to give any credence or attention to that, and the 99 00:05:43,959 --> 00:05:46,240 producers were like, just so you know, we really don't 100 00:05:46,279 --> 00:05:51,839 believe this either, but she is. But they were trying to. 101 00:05:53,120 --> 00:05:56,879 It's a business and they're making a product. I was 102 00:05:57,240 --> 00:05:59,680 relieved when I saw the final series that at the 103 00:05:59,759 --> 00:06:03,160 end did do a lot of debunking and basically put 104 00:06:03,199 --> 00:06:06,720 it all in its proper perspective to let people know, yeah, 105 00:06:06,759 --> 00:06:09,319 this is nonsense and you shouldn't waste your life on 106 00:06:09,360 --> 00:06:12,639 this nonsense. But that doesn't mean that it stops being lucrative, 107 00:06:13,319 --> 00:06:16,680 so the deals continue. Steve Hodell at one time had 108 00:06:16,720 --> 00:06:20,120 a deal to make Most Evil make his theory into 109 00:06:20,399 --> 00:06:24,079 some film or series or whatever. There's all that pressure 110 00:06:24,160 --> 00:06:26,639 to come up with content, and all it takes is 111 00:06:26,680 --> 00:06:28,959 for somebody to say, I know who the Zodiac is, 112 00:06:29,199 --> 00:06:30,519 and now they've got an angle. 113 00:06:31,120 --> 00:06:34,800 Speaker 3: Michael. One of the things that we've noticed that comes 114 00:06:34,800 --> 00:06:39,480 along with being invested in a well known unsolved case 115 00:06:40,279 --> 00:06:43,240 like the Zodiac and the Colonial Parkway murders of courses. 116 00:06:43,279 --> 00:06:49,160 Also in this area unsolved and of rather important and 117 00:06:49,319 --> 00:06:52,480 popular standing, is that there are a lot of people 118 00:06:52,519 --> 00:06:56,480 who will try to link just about any serial killer 119 00:06:56,519 --> 00:06:59,920 that they can think of in some way to our case. 120 00:07:00,120 --> 00:07:04,560 Is we know that this has happened recently with you'd 121 00:07:04,560 --> 00:07:09,199 mentioned BTK earlier. There are several new theories going around 122 00:07:09,199 --> 00:07:12,399 the BTK is responsible for murders up in Oklahoma, where 123 00:07:12,560 --> 00:07:15,519 it may not actually be the case. So it's definitely 124 00:07:15,600 --> 00:07:18,279 one of the things that happens, I think with widely 125 00:07:18,319 --> 00:07:21,319 known cases is that you try to pull famous other 126 00:07:21,399 --> 00:07:23,360 serial killers in, throw it against the wall and. 127 00:07:23,319 --> 00:07:24,120 Speaker 5: See what sticks. 128 00:07:24,639 --> 00:07:27,439 Speaker 3: It's been posited by some that there are a lot 129 00:07:27,480 --> 00:07:33,160 of similarities between the Colonial Parkway murders and the Zodiac crimes. 130 00:07:33,600 --> 00:07:37,759 They took place in Lover's lanes, They involved couples, They 131 00:07:38,319 --> 00:07:42,560 had various emos. The Zodiac, of course, had several different 132 00:07:42,639 --> 00:07:45,319 types of weapons that he used, and that is the 133 00:07:45,360 --> 00:07:48,639 case also in our cases. Some of the hallmarks of 134 00:07:48,680 --> 00:07:52,639 the Zodiac are missing. However, but I think it's still 135 00:07:52,639 --> 00:07:56,160 worth asking the question to our Zodiac expert, now that 136 00:07:56,199 --> 00:07:59,480 we've got you here, do you feel like it's possible 137 00:07:59,639 --> 00:08:03,000 that the Zodiac could have been working on the East coast, 138 00:08:03,560 --> 00:08:06,439 like as late as the nineteen eighties. Would he have 139 00:08:06,600 --> 00:08:10,800 changed his mo of taunting messages and his ciphers in 140 00:08:10,839 --> 00:08:12,399 such an appreciable. 141 00:08:11,800 --> 00:08:14,759 Speaker 5: Way if my life depended on the answer. 142 00:08:15,920 --> 00:08:17,519 Speaker 3: It must assuredly does not. 143 00:08:17,759 --> 00:08:20,800 Speaker 5: But I would say no. Now, I could be wrong 144 00:08:20,839 --> 00:08:23,199 about that, and I try to say that as often 145 00:08:23,240 --> 00:08:25,600 as I can, that I could be wrong about these things. 146 00:08:25,639 --> 00:08:29,480 It's not something set in stone that I believe. But yeah, 147 00:08:29,519 --> 00:08:31,920 this is part of what I used to jokingly refer 148 00:08:32,039 --> 00:08:34,960 to as the Marvel Team of true crime, where you 149 00:08:35,000 --> 00:08:38,559 take the two infamous criminals and try to link them together, 150 00:08:38,720 --> 00:08:41,240 the Zodiac and the unibomber, or the Zodiac and the 151 00:08:41,279 --> 00:08:45,600 Colonial Parkway murders. With the Colonial Parkway murders, I don't 152 00:08:45,840 --> 00:08:50,559 see anything there that would indicate that the Zodiac was involved. 153 00:08:51,200 --> 00:08:53,600 It is important to remember when you were saying how 154 00:08:54,639 --> 00:08:57,919 there's some hallmarks missing. In one of those Zodiac letters, 155 00:08:58,200 --> 00:09:00,519 he essentially said, I'm not going to to tell you 156 00:09:00,519 --> 00:09:03,559 who I'm killing anymore, and they will look like routine 157 00:09:03,639 --> 00:09:07,279 robberies and accidents and killings of anger and things like that. 158 00:09:07,519 --> 00:09:10,840 And some people interpret that to me that he wouldn't 159 00:09:10,879 --> 00:09:15,080 follow any pattern anymore. So it is possible that he 160 00:09:15,200 --> 00:09:18,919 departed from those hallmarks of what we now think of 161 00:09:19,000 --> 00:09:23,200 as the Zodiac mo attacking a couple, but he also 162 00:09:23,360 --> 00:09:27,080 departed from that back in nineteen sixty nine. The first 163 00:09:27,080 --> 00:09:30,399 three attacks were on young couples. The fourth attack was 164 00:09:30,440 --> 00:09:33,279 on a cab driver, which was very different. With the 165 00:09:33,279 --> 00:09:38,200 Colonial Parkway murders, especially Bill and the case involving your sister, 166 00:09:38,480 --> 00:09:41,759 I don't see anything there that would make me think 167 00:09:41,799 --> 00:09:45,080 the Zodiac was a logical suspect. I think it's also 168 00:09:45,120 --> 00:09:47,639 important to note if correct me if I'm wrong, But 169 00:09:47,759 --> 00:09:50,399 some of these cases that have been part of the 170 00:09:50,440 --> 00:09:55,799 Colonial Parkway canon are now being looked at differently because 171 00:09:55,840 --> 00:10:01,039 of DNA. And this is name Alan Wade Wilmer, Yes, correct, 172 00:10:01,039 --> 00:10:03,720 a man who some people believe was connected to some 173 00:10:03,759 --> 00:10:06,960 of these cases, and DNA has connected him to some 174 00:10:07,000 --> 00:10:11,960 of these cases. So now you have a situation where 175 00:10:11,960 --> 00:10:14,159 you had a list of crimes that you thought were 176 00:10:14,200 --> 00:10:18,559 part of the Colonial Parkway canon, but now some of 177 00:10:18,600 --> 00:10:21,480 them have an asterisk next to them because of Wilmer. 178 00:10:22,720 --> 00:10:27,080 So does that mean that he is not responsible for 179 00:10:27,200 --> 00:10:32,720 these other cases? Where now you have essentially a split 180 00:10:32,799 --> 00:10:34,919 list the ones that can be linked to Wilmer and 181 00:10:34,960 --> 00:10:36,799 the ones that can't or haven't. 182 00:10:36,519 --> 00:10:40,039 Speaker 2: Been yet more it's more haven't been but yeah, yeah, 183 00:10:40,120 --> 00:10:43,120 that possibility still exists. But these are the things that 184 00:10:43,240 --> 00:10:44,519 keep us up late at night. 185 00:10:44,919 --> 00:10:48,279 Speaker 5: Yeah yeah. So when I looked at this list of 186 00:10:48,320 --> 00:10:51,480 what I guess you would call the remaining cases, the 187 00:10:51,480 --> 00:10:55,320 ones that he hasn't been definitively linked to yet, because 188 00:10:55,600 --> 00:10:58,559 if I remember correctly, there's one of these cases where 189 00:10:58,600 --> 00:11:02,720 he was a suspect years ago. Yes, and then I 190 00:11:02,759 --> 00:11:05,879 think because of a polygraph or something else, somebody had 191 00:11:05,919 --> 00:11:08,879 determined that he wasn't involved. But now he seems like 192 00:11:08,919 --> 00:11:12,440 he's the most likely suspect still, so when you look 193 00:11:12,480 --> 00:11:15,720 at these cases that are the leftovers, as you might say, 194 00:11:15,879 --> 00:11:19,559 that diminishes the things that made them seem all connected 195 00:11:19,639 --> 00:11:23,039 now because these other ones are either not part of 196 00:11:23,080 --> 00:11:26,399 it or they're part of it. And these other cases 197 00:11:26,519 --> 00:11:29,200 were wilmar too, we just can't prove it. Now. When 198 00:11:29,200 --> 00:11:31,720 I look at that list, it seems less like a 199 00:11:31,759 --> 00:11:36,320 pattern now, especially when you have the different mos. You 200 00:11:37,120 --> 00:11:40,840 the victims were stabbed and nearly decapitated in the first 201 00:11:40,879 --> 00:11:44,639 case they were found inside their vehicles or in their vehicle. 202 00:11:45,080 --> 00:11:48,000 Then you have what is it, Brian Pettenger who was 203 00:11:48,200 --> 00:11:50,879 killed with blunt force trauma to the head and drowning. 204 00:11:51,720 --> 00:11:54,279 Then you have the other case of the couple where 205 00:11:54,600 --> 00:11:57,480 we don't even know how they were killed. There seems 206 00:11:57,480 --> 00:11:59,679 to be some evidence that they might have been stabbed. 207 00:12:00,039 --> 00:12:03,519 Can't say for sure. The differences seem to stand out 208 00:12:03,600 --> 00:12:08,080 more now to me, and I'm very skeptical when anybody's 209 00:12:08,120 --> 00:12:12,000 trying to connect Zodiac to another crime. I think that 210 00:12:12,039 --> 00:12:14,960 we've all learned a lesson in many ways with how 211 00:12:15,039 --> 00:12:17,720 people have tried to link the Zodiac to other unsolved 212 00:12:17,759 --> 00:12:21,759 cases before this, like the unsolved murder in Riverside, California, 213 00:12:22,559 --> 00:12:26,399 or there were some letters that some handwriting experts believed 214 00:12:26,399 --> 00:12:31,039 were written by the Zodiac. These three handwritten letters that said, 215 00:12:31,200 --> 00:12:33,879 in effect, Bates had to die, there will be more, 216 00:12:33,919 --> 00:12:35,639 with a little symbol on them that looked like the 217 00:12:35,720 --> 00:12:39,399 letter Z that seemed to lend itself to the idea 218 00:12:39,440 --> 00:12:42,600 that Zodiac could be involved. The handwriting experts thought that 219 00:12:42,639 --> 00:12:46,720 he wrote those letters, although some disagreed, and the Zodiac 220 00:12:46,840 --> 00:12:49,919 was often referred to as a prime suspect in that case. 221 00:12:50,399 --> 00:12:53,679 Just a few years ago, the Riverside police determined that 222 00:12:53,720 --> 00:12:56,519 they had identified the person who wrote those three letters, 223 00:12:56,519 --> 00:12:59,360 and that person was not the Zodiac. So now you 224 00:12:59,399 --> 00:13:02,159 remove a huge chunk of the element that seemed to 225 00:13:02,200 --> 00:13:05,799 link Zodiac to that, and there's still possible Zodiac was 226 00:13:05,840 --> 00:13:09,559 involved with writing the confession letter. Or maybe more it's 227 00:13:09,600 --> 00:13:11,960 possible he had nothing to do with any of it, 228 00:13:12,080 --> 00:13:15,080 and he just mimicked it later on and took credit 229 00:13:15,120 --> 00:13:17,360 for it when it looked like it might suit him 230 00:13:17,399 --> 00:13:20,639 to pad his resume in that regard. But I think 231 00:13:20,679 --> 00:13:24,159 it's a good lesson in not getting too married to 232 00:13:24,240 --> 00:13:28,000 your theories. So with the Colonial Parkway, I don't see 233 00:13:28,000 --> 00:13:30,519 any reason to believe that the Zodiac was involved. I 234 00:13:30,519 --> 00:13:32,840 don't see any reason to believe that he was active 235 00:13:32,919 --> 00:13:35,759 on that side of the country during that time. I 236 00:13:35,799 --> 00:13:38,120 know that there's some people who think that Arthur Lee 237 00:13:38,200 --> 00:13:41,440 Allen was the person that committed those crimes at that time. 238 00:13:41,879 --> 00:13:44,120 I just don't see any reason to believe that. Although 239 00:13:44,159 --> 00:13:47,519 I'd love to be proven wrong and I would certainly 240 00:13:47,559 --> 00:13:51,679 be interested in hearing more about what makes Wilmer a 241 00:13:51,799 --> 00:13:55,639 logical suspect in some of these cases, because, especially with 242 00:13:55,720 --> 00:13:59,039 the Brian Pettinger, the more that you remove the Wilmer 243 00:13:59,159 --> 00:14:03,240 cases from that list, the more that Brian Pettinger stands 244 00:14:03,240 --> 00:14:06,320 out like a sore thumb, like it seems very different. 245 00:14:06,399 --> 00:14:09,879 When the list was longer, it seemed easier to factor 246 00:14:09,960 --> 00:14:12,919 him in there. I think that there were some connections 247 00:14:13,039 --> 00:14:16,440 or some similarities, but the more you remove the Warmer 248 00:14:16,480 --> 00:14:18,960 ones from the list than what you're left with Brian 249 00:14:19,000 --> 00:14:22,600 Pettinger's case really seems to me like maybe it's not 250 00:14:22,639 --> 00:14:25,799 connected at all. Again, I could be wrong about. 251 00:14:25,519 --> 00:14:28,679 Speaker 2: That, and I think Lorinne Powell, who also worked at 252 00:14:28,720 --> 00:14:33,120 Liberty Security with Brian Pettinger, I think there's a very 253 00:14:33,159 --> 00:14:36,120 strong possibility and I think Kristin agrees that those two 254 00:14:36,159 --> 00:14:41,039 cases are probably related, and we I think Kristin feel 255 00:14:41,039 --> 00:14:44,320 free to disagree with me. I think that Brian Pettinger 256 00:14:44,320 --> 00:14:47,879 and Lorian Powell are related, but I don't think they're 257 00:14:47,919 --> 00:14:52,639 necessarily related to the other Colonial Parkway murders. You're listening 258 00:14:52,639 --> 00:14:55,440 to Mind over Murder. We'll be right back after this 259 00:14:55,519 --> 00:15:00,279 word from our sponsors. 260 00:15:01,000 --> 00:15:04,279 Speaker 5: We're back here at Mind over Murder. Yeah. Yeah, And 261 00:15:04,320 --> 00:15:06,639 I'm glad that you brought that up, because I've heard 262 00:15:06,679 --> 00:15:09,120 about this case over the years, and I've been asked 263 00:15:09,200 --> 00:15:12,159 questions about it before, but I never really looked into 264 00:15:12,159 --> 00:15:14,679 it as much as I did before doing this interview. 265 00:15:15,159 --> 00:15:18,000 The thing about liberty security, when I read that, I 266 00:15:18,039 --> 00:15:22,320 was like, wait a minute, there's connections here, So could 267 00:15:22,320 --> 00:15:25,039 you expand on that a little bit about what liberty 268 00:15:25,080 --> 00:15:27,480 security means in the context of all of this. 269 00:15:28,519 --> 00:15:32,919 Speaker 2: You end up with a whole long conversation that centers 270 00:15:32,919 --> 00:15:38,200 around a now deceased suspect named Ron Little who's from 271 00:15:38,279 --> 00:15:41,919 New Zealand moved to the United States. It's hard to 272 00:15:41,960 --> 00:15:45,120 give a short version of the Ron Little story. After 273 00:15:45,159 --> 00:15:49,159 living in California and marrying a woman from New Zealand 274 00:15:49,159 --> 00:15:52,320 out there and having a daughter together. He then left 275 00:15:52,399 --> 00:15:58,080 that family and moved to Virginia. He ended up at 276 00:15:58,200 --> 00:16:03,440 least allegedly purchasing a company called Liberty Security, which was 277 00:16:03,480 --> 00:16:07,639 a small security firm that provided security for retail stores 278 00:16:07,679 --> 00:16:10,919 and that sort of thing. Whether or not he actually 279 00:16:11,000 --> 00:16:14,639 purchased the company or not, I have some real skepticism 280 00:16:14,679 --> 00:16:16,679 in that regard, because I think that may have been 281 00:16:16,720 --> 00:16:21,120 a straw man purchase. He supposedly purchased the company from 282 00:16:21,240 --> 00:16:24,960 a local man and changed the name of the company 283 00:16:25,000 --> 00:16:30,480 to Advance Security. He inserted himself Little inserted himself in 284 00:16:30,519 --> 00:16:35,080 a very bizarre and public way into the Colonial Parkway murders. 285 00:16:35,639 --> 00:16:39,480 He wrote letters to the President of the United States 286 00:16:39,600 --> 00:16:45,039 and Oprah, senators and congress people, all the local media. 287 00:16:45,200 --> 00:16:50,120 He did television interviews insisting that he knew who was 288 00:16:50,159 --> 00:16:53,519 responsible for the Colonial Parkway murders and that he knew 289 00:16:53,519 --> 00:16:56,399 when the next murder was going to take place the 290 00:16:56,480 --> 00:16:59,960 same time and this is all simultaneous with the Colonial Parkway. 291 00:17:01,039 --> 00:17:03,919 Two of the young people that he worked with directly 292 00:17:04,119 --> 00:17:09,680 at Liberty Security slash Advanced Security, Lorient Powell and Brian Pattenger, 293 00:17:09,720 --> 00:17:12,319 were both brutally murdered and their bodies were dumped in 294 00:17:12,440 --> 00:17:17,279 area rivers. And this actually immediately brackets one of the 295 00:17:17,319 --> 00:17:20,440 Colonial Parkway murders, which is the murder of Keith Colin 296 00:17:20,519 --> 00:17:24,160 Cassandra Hailey, which is technically a disappearance rather than I'm 297 00:17:24,200 --> 00:17:29,319 murdered per se. But it's a very bizarre and twisted tale. 298 00:17:29,400 --> 00:17:33,759 In recent years, his family from New Zealand, and this 299 00:17:33,839 --> 00:17:38,319 is a very non traditional family. Ron Little had five 300 00:17:38,759 --> 00:17:42,240 different children by five different women, two or three of 301 00:17:42,279 --> 00:17:46,640 whom he was married to, three in New Zealand and 302 00:17:46,680 --> 00:17:51,039 two here in the United States. His family reached out 303 00:17:51,079 --> 00:17:55,359 to me several years ago and told me that they 304 00:17:55,440 --> 00:17:58,480 had started listening to Mind over Murder and so they 305 00:17:58,519 --> 00:18:02,079 became familiar with Kristin Dilly Bill Thomas, and they wanted 306 00:18:02,079 --> 00:18:05,680 to let me know that. In the years after their 307 00:18:05,759 --> 00:18:09,599 father was deported back to New Zealand by the FBI 308 00:18:09,799 --> 00:18:13,880 and THES. This would have been in August nineteen eighty nine, 309 00:18:13,920 --> 00:18:16,880 which is right around the time the Colonial Parkway murders stopped, 310 00:18:17,000 --> 00:18:22,400 or appeared to stop. For years afterward, their father told 311 00:18:22,480 --> 00:18:26,400 them repeatedly, particularly his two sons, that he was involved 312 00:18:26,440 --> 00:18:29,880 in a series of unsolved murders in Virginia. He didn't 313 00:18:29,880 --> 00:18:32,400 call them the Colonial Parkway murders, but of course that's 314 00:18:32,440 --> 00:18:36,880 a media construct to start with, and he didn't reference 315 00:18:36,960 --> 00:18:40,720 specific victims' names. He didn't say I was involved in 316 00:18:40,799 --> 00:18:43,599 Cathay Thomas and Rebecca Dowski's murder or anything like that, 317 00:18:43,680 --> 00:18:46,480 but he did insist for years that he was involved, 318 00:18:46,559 --> 00:18:50,240 and he means directly involved in a series of unsolved 319 00:18:50,279 --> 00:18:53,960 murders in Virginia. This is all leading up to several 320 00:18:54,039 --> 00:18:57,119 years ago before he died of a recurrence of cancer. 321 00:18:57,720 --> 00:19:00,920 Kristin and I ended up just scratching our heads saying, 322 00:19:01,160 --> 00:19:04,599 who in the world tells their family they're involved in 323 00:19:04,640 --> 00:19:08,200 a series of unsolved murders. Yes, very weird, and this 324 00:19:08,279 --> 00:19:12,680 guy was a career criminal, drug dealer, a very violent man. 325 00:19:13,480 --> 00:19:18,079 The whole thing is truly bizarre that he had inserted 326 00:19:18,119 --> 00:19:20,799 himself in this very public and private way. 327 00:19:21,599 --> 00:19:25,480 Speaker 3: Ultimate plot twist here, ron Little is the Zodiac. 328 00:19:27,680 --> 00:19:31,480 Speaker 5: It's funny because we have a mutual friend, Steve, who 329 00:19:31,799 --> 00:19:34,039 was very helpful with my Zodiac book, but has also 330 00:19:34,079 --> 00:19:37,759 been helpful in educating me about the Colonial Parkway case. 331 00:19:38,240 --> 00:19:41,319 And when he started telling me about the DNA and 332 00:19:41,359 --> 00:19:45,640 the links to Wilmer. That that's an amazing feat all 333 00:19:45,680 --> 00:19:48,680 these years later that implicated him in that. I was 334 00:19:48,720 --> 00:19:53,839 immediately struck by a detail in the Teresa Howell case. Yes, 335 00:19:54,519 --> 00:19:57,880 Wilmer has been connected to that with DNA, as am 336 00:19:57,920 --> 00:19:59,799 I correct about that. That's some the cases where the 337 00:20:00,400 --> 00:20:03,160 showed that he was involved, and it's not likely that 338 00:20:03,279 --> 00:20:06,240 he wasn't involved, because how else would his DNA get there. 339 00:20:06,799 --> 00:20:09,359 It's interesting to note that the last place that Teresa 340 00:20:09,400 --> 00:20:12,000 Howell was seen was the Zodiac. 341 00:20:11,519 --> 00:20:15,359 Speaker 2: Club correct, which has always been a striking detail for 342 00:20:15,440 --> 00:20:16,759 the two of us as well. 343 00:20:16,880 --> 00:20:21,359 Speaker 5: But that tells you something about coincidence. Yeah, that those 344 00:20:21,440 --> 00:20:24,160 kinds of things can happen and they don't have any 345 00:20:24,200 --> 00:20:26,799 connection to anything. There's no reason to believe Wilmer is 346 00:20:26,839 --> 00:20:30,119 the Zodiac as far as I know, So there's no 347 00:20:30,200 --> 00:20:34,039 reason to believe that's an important factor in this case. 348 00:20:34,519 --> 00:20:37,720 So it's just it looks like it's just a coincidence, 349 00:20:37,960 --> 00:20:42,039 and coincidences do happen. It's just odd that the Zodiac 350 00:20:42,240 --> 00:20:46,319 is somewhere in there, but it doesn't appear to be relevant. 351 00:20:46,640 --> 00:20:50,000 Speaker 2: Yeah, now we're giving you just the shortest version, just 352 00:20:50,039 --> 00:20:54,920 the highlights of the run Little saga. But this is 353 00:20:55,119 --> 00:21:01,200 fascinating to find someone like this who, for thirty plus 354 00:21:01,319 --> 00:21:06,240 years seems to have some sort of relationship or nexus 355 00:21:06,279 --> 00:21:10,799 surrounding him. All these years later, his family reaches out 356 00:21:10,839 --> 00:21:13,519 to me and says, we think our father was involved 357 00:21:13,519 --> 00:21:17,680 in the Colonial Parkway murders. It's a mighty strange place 358 00:21:17,720 --> 00:21:21,000 to find yourself. And now Kristen's putting out this new 359 00:21:21,079 --> 00:21:24,400 theory that Ron Little is the Zodiac. I don't think kidding. 360 00:21:24,920 --> 00:21:26,440 I don't think the math works. 361 00:21:26,799 --> 00:21:27,559 Speaker 5: No, it doesn't. 362 00:21:28,119 --> 00:21:29,119 Speaker 2: Now sure is fun. 363 00:21:29,880 --> 00:21:32,079 Speaker 5: It is really something. Michael. 364 00:21:32,119 --> 00:21:34,920 Speaker 3: If you need another book project, the Colonial Parkway murders, 365 00:21:35,000 --> 00:21:38,759 all these needs yet another chronicler, you're welcome to it. 366 00:21:39,400 --> 00:21:43,039 Speaker 5: Well, I'm working on another book right now, but I'm 367 00:21:43,039 --> 00:21:46,279 hoping to put out in the near future. That's about 368 00:21:46,319 --> 00:21:46,920 Ted Bundy. 369 00:21:47,720 --> 00:21:48,680 Speaker 3: Oh terrific. 370 00:21:49,079 --> 00:21:51,519 Speaker 5: Years back, I wrote an article for a true crime 371 00:21:51,559 --> 00:21:56,160 magazine called Ted Bundy Super Genius, and it was an 372 00:21:56,240 --> 00:21:59,359 article that kind of went through and debunked the idea 373 00:21:59,400 --> 00:22:02,799 that Bundy was this brilliant criminal because if you look 374 00:22:02,839 --> 00:22:06,799 at the facts, it's stunning that he wasn't captured sooner 375 00:22:06,839 --> 00:22:09,920 than he was. Yeah, how many serial killers out there 376 00:22:10,000 --> 00:22:14,519 are known by their name before they're captured. He told people, 377 00:22:14,559 --> 00:22:17,480 I'm ted. But it was funny because the editor that 378 00:22:17,559 --> 00:22:20,359 I was working for at that time, the publisher of 379 00:22:20,400 --> 00:22:23,240 that magazine, was in the UK, and he didn't appear 380 00:22:23,279 --> 00:22:26,920 to be familiar with the origins or the popular origin 381 00:22:27,039 --> 00:22:31,160 of the term super genius, which is from the Wiley 382 00:22:31,359 --> 00:22:35,519 Coyote cartoons. And when somebody says they're a super genius, 383 00:22:36,079 --> 00:22:41,640 they're not. They're Wiley Coyote. But because he wasn't familiar 384 00:22:41,720 --> 00:22:44,240 with that, he changed the title of the article because 385 00:22:44,240 --> 00:22:48,440 he thought I was Oh, it was serious, and it 386 00:22:48,559 --> 00:22:53,799 was like, no, it's meant to be ironic. Yeah, when 387 00:22:53,799 --> 00:22:56,079 you say that about the Colonial Parkway case. I should 388 00:22:56,160 --> 00:22:59,279 say this, over the years, learning so much about the 389 00:22:59,359 --> 00:23:03,119 Zodiac case, so it's really easy to see a newspaper article, 390 00:23:03,240 --> 00:23:06,599 magazine article, a YouTube video, a documentary or something that 391 00:23:06,720 --> 00:23:09,559 has something in it and you immediately go, that's not true. 392 00:23:10,400 --> 00:23:13,200 Where did they get that from? Like the stories that 393 00:23:13,240 --> 00:23:16,559 the Zodiac sent shellcasings in the mail and that they 394 00:23:17,079 --> 00:23:19,720 matched to different crimes and stuff with all kinds of 395 00:23:19,759 --> 00:23:22,960 things like that. Once I started to notice that over 396 00:23:23,000 --> 00:23:25,599 the years, I started to realize how much of that 397 00:23:25,759 --> 00:23:28,839 is going on in other cases, yes, that I am 398 00:23:28,920 --> 00:23:32,119 not familiar with the facts about them. I was watching 399 00:23:32,200 --> 00:23:34,559 something about Ted Bundy the other day and they said 400 00:23:34,599 --> 00:23:37,559 that his last known victim, Kimberly Leach, was her body 401 00:23:37,640 --> 00:23:40,960 was found in a river. And it was like, no, 402 00:23:41,400 --> 00:23:44,160 it wasn't found in a river, but the narrator said 403 00:23:44,200 --> 00:23:46,559 it like it was fact. So I start to wonder 404 00:23:46,720 --> 00:23:49,839 how much can I trust of what I'm reading about 405 00:23:49,880 --> 00:23:53,440 other things. The reasons that I feel like I know 406 00:23:53,799 --> 00:23:56,240 more about the Zodiac case is because I talked to 407 00:23:56,279 --> 00:23:59,279 the investigators and people involved. I write the police reports, 408 00:23:59,279 --> 00:24:01,839 the FBI file, did all that work. But I haven't 409 00:24:01,880 --> 00:24:04,359 done all that work in these other things. I can't 410 00:24:04,440 --> 00:24:07,039 look at them and go, this isn't true, that isn't true. 411 00:24:07,400 --> 00:24:09,880 I'd have to do a ton of research about the 412 00:24:09,920 --> 00:24:14,440 Colonial Parkway murders before I'd even feel comfortable speaking about 413 00:24:14,440 --> 00:24:18,160 them with any idea that I have any authority. What 414 00:24:18,319 --> 00:24:23,759 happens in the true crime world, it seems to be sensationalism. Yes, 415 00:24:23,920 --> 00:24:26,799 that's the way to sell things that the facts aren't 416 00:24:26,839 --> 00:24:29,200 really that important. And I'll give you a real quick 417 00:24:29,240 --> 00:24:31,960 example of something that happened to me some years ago. 418 00:24:32,079 --> 00:24:36,279 I was involved in this show History's Greatest Mysteries, okay, 419 00:24:36,519 --> 00:24:41,400 the History Yet with Lawrence Fishburn. They had asked me 420 00:24:41,720 --> 00:24:43,799 when I do something like this, I always do it 421 00:24:43,839 --> 00:24:46,720 because I want to help them find as much accurate 422 00:24:46,759 --> 00:24:49,400 information as they can so that I'm not sitting there 423 00:24:49,400 --> 00:24:52,759 screaming at the TV when it airs. And with this, 424 00:24:52,839 --> 00:24:56,240 they had asked me about crime scene photos, and they 425 00:24:56,279 --> 00:24:58,640 wanted to know what was available, and so I gave 426 00:24:58,680 --> 00:25:02,640 them everything that was publicly available and whatever was available period. 427 00:25:02,759 --> 00:25:05,079 And they said, why aren't there any true crime or 428 00:25:05,079 --> 00:25:08,279 why aren't there any crime scene photos from the Blue 429 00:25:08,359 --> 00:25:10,759 Rock Springs attack? And I said, I think part of 430 00:25:10,799 --> 00:25:13,279 that's because the victims were still alive and they were 431 00:25:13,319 --> 00:25:16,279 transported to a hospital. I understand that there are pictures 432 00:25:16,319 --> 00:25:19,599 taken of the scene, but those pictures haven't been released 433 00:25:19,640 --> 00:25:22,519 to the public, and I don't think that the victims 434 00:25:22,519 --> 00:25:24,839 are probably in a lot of those pictures because they 435 00:25:24,839 --> 00:25:28,440 were transported away. And I thought I explained that pretty 436 00:25:28,440 --> 00:25:31,759 clearly when the show aired. The first time it aired. 437 00:25:31,759 --> 00:25:33,640 I guess I'd turned my head for a second and 438 00:25:33,720 --> 00:25:35,880 didn't notice it. It wasn't until the second time that 439 00:25:35,960 --> 00:25:39,519 I watched it when I realized that they had inserted 440 00:25:39,559 --> 00:25:42,559 a photo in there for the Blue Rock Springs crime 441 00:25:42,720 --> 00:25:45,640 and said, this is this implying that this is a 442 00:25:45,680 --> 00:25:49,279 photograph from Blue Rock Springs Park. And the first thing 443 00:25:49,319 --> 00:25:51,759 I noticed immediately was that the cars were from the 444 00:25:51,839 --> 00:25:52,640 nineteen eighties. 445 00:25:52,880 --> 00:25:55,279 Speaker 2: Yeah, no, I don't think yeah. 446 00:25:55,079 --> 00:25:57,359 Speaker 5: And I was like, what the But when I rewound 447 00:25:57,400 --> 00:25:59,880 it and paused it, I was shocked to see that 448 00:26:00,039 --> 00:26:03,319 that wasn't the only indication that something was wrong, because 449 00:26:03,400 --> 00:26:05,640 when you pause and freeze the photo that in the 450 00:26:05,720 --> 00:26:14,119 driver's seat of the car is Grimace from McDonald's, a 451 00:26:14,240 --> 00:26:18,440 much later character. Yes, thank guys, who, by the way, if, 452 00:26:18,519 --> 00:26:21,200 according to my research, did not exist at the time 453 00:26:21,240 --> 00:26:24,400 of that murder. But I looked at it, I was like, 454 00:26:24,480 --> 00:26:27,559 am I hallucinating? What is this? So? How did this 455 00:26:27,759 --> 00:26:30,240 end up in here? And doing a little bit of research, 456 00:26:30,279 --> 00:26:33,839 I discovered that the photograph came from a mock website, 457 00:26:33,839 --> 00:26:38,920 a parody website about a thing called the Burgerland Murders, Oh, 458 00:26:39,039 --> 00:26:43,720 which was some sort of satire about mafia like hits 459 00:26:43,759 --> 00:26:49,920 on iconic fast food figures. This photograph was part of 460 00:26:49,960 --> 00:26:54,960 this website, and so apparently somebody who was searching, some 461 00:26:55,240 --> 00:26:59,039 researcher who worked for the show, was going through the 462 00:26:59,119 --> 00:27:03,079 internet and came across this picture, and somehow it went 463 00:27:03,160 --> 00:27:06,039 through all the filters without being noticed and ended up 464 00:27:06,160 --> 00:27:07,720 in the final product. 465 00:27:07,880 --> 00:27:11,160 Speaker 2: Unbelievable, with no sense of their pop culture. 466 00:27:11,640 --> 00:27:14,359 Speaker 5: Fast food Yeah, I don't think they even noticed it. 467 00:27:14,359 --> 00:27:17,119 It goes by so quickly on the screen. But I 468 00:27:17,160 --> 00:27:19,720 was trying to imagine somebody in an editing bay with 469 00:27:19,839 --> 00:27:23,119 a giant screen in front of them not noticing that 470 00:27:23,240 --> 00:27:26,839 a fictional fast food character is in a crime scene photo. 471 00:27:27,960 --> 00:27:31,039 That kind of tells you something about the way that 472 00:27:31,079 --> 00:27:34,240 these things are produced. They're mass produced, they're churned out. 473 00:27:34,839 --> 00:27:38,720 There's going to be all kinds of misinformation about all 474 00:27:38,839 --> 00:27:42,440 kinds of cases. I'm just not capable of recognizing all 475 00:27:42,480 --> 00:27:45,400 of them because I haven't done in depth research on those. 476 00:27:45,799 --> 00:27:48,799 So it's a little frightening sometimes to think about taking 477 00:27:48,839 --> 00:27:53,839 on a new case arkways, but with Bundy, I've been 478 00:27:53,880 --> 00:27:56,319 reading about that for so long, I've done so much 479 00:27:56,359 --> 00:27:59,200 research over the years. I feel more confident writing something 480 00:27:59,200 --> 00:28:03,519 about that. The Colonial Parkway thing would probably be another 481 00:28:03,680 --> 00:28:06,519 lifetime investment, and I don't have another lifetime. 482 00:28:06,799 --> 00:28:09,920 Speaker 2: I have something I have not mentioned to Kristen lately. 483 00:28:10,160 --> 00:28:13,839 Is the last couple of weeks now, I have been 484 00:28:14,400 --> 00:28:17,960 working on our podcasts and other projects, and something will 485 00:28:18,039 --> 00:28:21,599 cross my one of my two computers here, and I'll 486 00:28:21,680 --> 00:28:24,519 stop for a few minutes and I'll watch it. There's 487 00:28:24,559 --> 00:28:30,440 been a little blip of these, their short YouTube videos, 488 00:28:30,599 --> 00:28:34,759 say seven or eight minutes long, that purport to be 489 00:28:34,759 --> 00:28:41,920 about the Colonial Parkway murders. It's clearly a computer generated voiceover. 490 00:28:42,200 --> 00:28:47,400 It's not a real voiceover. Yeah, and they've got facts wrong. 491 00:28:48,039 --> 00:28:51,000 For instance, they say that all four of the double 492 00:28:51,000 --> 00:28:54,559 homicides in the Colonial Parkway murders are unsolved, and that 493 00:28:54,720 --> 00:28:59,480 this mystery continues to frustrate it. And I'm thinking to myself, actually, 494 00:28:59,519 --> 00:29:03,519 that's not true. Alan Wade Wilmer Sr. Was linked and 495 00:29:03,559 --> 00:29:08,440 publicly announced in January twenty twenty four. He died sadly 496 00:29:08,559 --> 00:29:13,319 in twenty seventeen. So we're not sadly taking him, only 497 00:29:13,400 --> 00:29:16,640 sadly in that I like to have seen him in 498 00:29:16,680 --> 00:29:19,519 a court of law. But they talk about these cases 499 00:29:19,559 --> 00:29:23,119 as if they're all completely unsolved, which is not true. 500 00:29:23,519 --> 00:29:26,359 And then they continue to get facts wrong, and I 501 00:29:26,559 --> 00:29:30,319 just find myself I feel like I'm screaming into the 502 00:29:30,440 --> 00:29:35,000 void here talking back to the computer saying that's wrong, 503 00:29:35,119 --> 00:29:35,759 that's wrong. 504 00:29:35,839 --> 00:29:38,400 Speaker 5: And it gets even worse with these AI generated things 505 00:29:38,400 --> 00:29:42,880 where they're using words that aren't words. Yeah, and I'm 506 00:29:42,920 --> 00:29:46,279 constantly going who wrote this that is? Not only is 507 00:29:46,279 --> 00:29:49,359 that not proper grammar, but it's that's that's not even 508 00:29:49,400 --> 00:29:52,680 a word in English language. But yeah, that's part of 509 00:29:52,720 --> 00:29:55,319 the problem now too, is a lot of Again, it 510 00:29:55,359 --> 00:29:58,160 goes back to this need for content. They just keep 511 00:29:58,200 --> 00:30:01,960 pumping content out and unfor the facts suffer and the 512 00:30:02,039 --> 00:30:03,200 victims as well. 513 00:30:03,319 --> 00:30:05,559 Speaker 2: Yeah. One of the things I've tried to do over 514 00:30:05,599 --> 00:30:08,279 the years, which Kristen's very much aware of, is we've 515 00:30:08,440 --> 00:30:11,839 tried to at least correct people. I'm not here to 516 00:30:11,920 --> 00:30:17,000 tell people what happened, but let's get the basic facts right. 517 00:30:17,559 --> 00:30:20,079 If you want to have a theory that I disagree with, 518 00:30:20,160 --> 00:30:22,920 feel free. Let's at least get the dates in the 519 00:30:23,000 --> 00:30:27,240 times and the places correct, so that if someone wants 520 00:30:27,279 --> 00:30:31,079 to debate, are these cases all related? Could they be independent? 521 00:30:31,680 --> 00:30:34,400 There's so much to talk about, but let's at least 522 00:30:34,440 --> 00:30:38,000 get the basic facts in the case straight, so that 523 00:30:38,000 --> 00:30:42,480 people can debate from a perspective of reality and not 524 00:30:42,599 --> 00:30:43,880 just making stuff up. 525 00:30:44,440 --> 00:30:47,559 Speaker 5: Yeah, but people don't let facts interfere with telling what 526 00:30:47,599 --> 00:30:52,359 they think is a good story. Very true. Yeah. 527 00:30:52,559 --> 00:30:56,480 Speaker 3: The book is The Zodiac Killer, The Story of America's 528 00:30:56,519 --> 00:31:00,480 Most Elusive Murderer, by Michael Butterfield. Michael, Well, where can 529 00:31:00,519 --> 00:31:01,839 everybody find your book? 530 00:31:02,599 --> 00:31:06,440 Speaker 5: Right now? The official release date is tomorrow. We're recording 531 00:31:06,480 --> 00:31:09,799 this before the release date, and it's available online. You 532 00:31:09,799 --> 00:31:12,599 can order it on Amazon, Barnes and Noble, and almost 533 00:31:12,599 --> 00:31:15,759 any online vendor. I think that some stores will be 534 00:31:15,799 --> 00:31:17,839 carrying the book in the near future. I just don't 535 00:31:17,880 --> 00:31:21,359 think that there will be available immediately tomorrow. I know 536 00:31:21,440 --> 00:31:25,119 that there's some talk about there being a second printing 537 00:31:25,160 --> 00:31:29,559 of it, because it looks like Amazon has sold out 538 00:31:29,680 --> 00:31:33,000 of their stock where I got mine. Yeah, but I 539 00:31:33,039 --> 00:31:35,599 know that people who have ordered the book online have 540 00:31:35,640 --> 00:31:38,400 already received it in the last few weeks. Even if 541 00:31:38,400 --> 00:31:40,359 you're trying to get it, I would recommend going to 542 00:31:40,519 --> 00:31:43,519 Barnes and Noble or Amazon or those places, or any 543 00:31:43,599 --> 00:31:48,079 online vendor, because I've seen it even available on Walmart's website. Yeah, 544 00:31:48,400 --> 00:31:50,599 hopefully people would go out there and get the book. 545 00:31:50,640 --> 00:31:53,279 And there's one thing that I should mention here real quick, 546 00:31:53,319 --> 00:31:56,240 if you don't mind, and that is that I worked 547 00:31:56,279 --> 00:31:58,960 on a manuscript for a book for a long time, 548 00:31:59,319 --> 00:32:03,880 many years ago, and this is not that book. This 549 00:32:04,119 --> 00:32:07,480 was a commissioned work. I was asked to write a 550 00:32:07,519 --> 00:32:11,319 book about the Zodiac case that was a general overview 551 00:32:11,799 --> 00:32:15,359 of the case, and I was asked to include certain 552 00:32:15,440 --> 00:32:19,480 subject matter, possibly related crimes or certain suspects that were 553 00:32:19,519 --> 00:32:22,559 popular in the media, things that the Zodiac may have 554 00:32:22,720 --> 00:32:25,759 inspired or that may have inspired the Zodiac. So the 555 00:32:25,799 --> 00:32:28,880 publisher had some requirements about what the book would be. 556 00:32:29,400 --> 00:32:32,279 So this book is a general overview of the case 557 00:32:32,920 --> 00:32:35,759 and important things that have led up to the last 558 00:32:35,759 --> 00:32:39,240 few years. It's not supposed to be my book. That's 559 00:32:39,319 --> 00:32:43,279 the accumulation of decades of research. It was a work 560 00:32:43,319 --> 00:32:47,160 for higher situation. Hopefully, the feedback on the book has 561 00:32:47,200 --> 00:32:51,240 been very good, very positive, and hopefully people will if 562 00:32:51,279 --> 00:32:53,279 they understand that's what the book is supposed to be, 563 00:32:53,359 --> 00:32:56,000 they'll see it for what it is. And like I said, 564 00:32:56,079 --> 00:32:58,400 most of the feedback has been very positive so far, 565 00:32:59,039 --> 00:33:02,640 and I'm lad for that because the main point of 566 00:33:02,680 --> 00:33:05,880 writing the book was that the book be something that 567 00:33:05,920 --> 00:33:07,960 would help people who are interested in the case. When 568 00:33:08,000 --> 00:33:10,480 I was asked to write it, that's why I did it. 569 00:33:10,960 --> 00:33:13,720 Speaker 2: And so your next book after that will be the 570 00:33:13,720 --> 00:33:15,519 book on Bundy hopefully. 571 00:33:15,599 --> 00:33:19,440 Speaker 5: Yeah, that's my plan. Life sometimes has other plans, but 572 00:33:19,799 --> 00:33:22,039 that's something that I've been working on for a long 573 00:33:22,079 --> 00:33:25,119 time when I have free time, and something that I 574 00:33:25,160 --> 00:33:28,839 think is an interesting topic for people, because the legend 575 00:33:28,880 --> 00:33:31,440 of Ted Bundy continues to grow, just like the legend 576 00:33:31,519 --> 00:33:35,720 of the Zodiac. Again, Ted Bundy was no super genius. 577 00:33:35,759 --> 00:33:40,440 That's precisely why he was caught, convicted, and executed. 578 00:33:40,400 --> 00:33:44,680 Speaker 2: As someone who's a gigantic, wily coyote fan. I was 579 00:33:44,799 --> 00:33:47,319 just so pleased that you made that reference. 580 00:33:49,119 --> 00:33:51,160 Speaker 5: And I think it's important to note that too, that 581 00:33:51,720 --> 00:33:55,559 we tend to view criminals as being criminal masterminds if 582 00:33:55,599 --> 00:33:58,559 they get away with their crimes or if they continue 583 00:33:58,599 --> 00:34:00,839 to get away with them for an extended period of time. 584 00:34:01,119 --> 00:34:04,720 But just like with Ted Bundy the Zodiac, there's no evidence, 585 00:34:04,839 --> 00:34:07,640 in my opinion, that the Zodiac was some super genius. 586 00:34:07,680 --> 00:34:09,960 I think he was much more likely some sort of 587 00:34:10,000 --> 00:34:14,559 pathetic figure who wouldn't measure up to the popular version 588 00:34:14,599 --> 00:34:15,199 of him. 589 00:34:15,599 --> 00:34:18,880 Speaker 2: I think if your book can't be called super genius, 590 00:34:18,920 --> 00:34:21,320 you should at least work it into the subhead. 591 00:34:21,679 --> 00:34:25,280 Speaker 5: Yeah yeah, Michael. 592 00:34:25,320 --> 00:34:27,039 Speaker 3: Thank you so much for joining us. It has been 593 00:34:27,079 --> 00:34:27,880 a real pleasure. 594 00:34:28,320 --> 00:34:30,000 Speaker 5: Thank you for having me that. 595 00:34:30,079 --> 00:34:31,719 Speaker 3: Is going to do it for this episode of mind 596 00:34:31,760 --> 00:34:33,679 Ever Murder. Thank you so much for listening. 597 00:34:42,360 --> 00:34:45,880 Speaker 1: Mind Over Murder is a production of Absolute Zero and 598 00:34:45,960 --> 00:34:47,400 Another Dog Productions. 599 00:34:47,960 --> 00:34:51,280 Speaker 2: Our executive producers are Bill Thomas and Kristin Dilley. 600 00:34:51,639 --> 00:34:54,280 Speaker 1: Our logo art is by Pamela Arnois. 601 00:34:54,679 --> 00:34:56,719 Speaker 2: Our theme music is by Kevin McLeod. 602 00:34:57,280 --> 00:35:01,159 Speaker 1: Mind Over Murder is distributed in partnership with crawl Space Media. 603 00:35:01,960 --> 00:35:05,119 Speaker 2: You can follow us on Facebook, Twitter, or Instagram. 604 00:35:05,320 --> 00:35:07,920 Speaker 1: You can also follow our page on the Colonial Parkway 605 00:35:08,000 --> 00:35:09,800 Murders on Facebook. 606 00:35:09,599 --> 00:35:12,639 Speaker 2: And finally, you can follow Bill Thomas on Twitter at 607 00:35:12,639 --> 00:35:14,280 Bill Thomas five six. 608 00:35:14,760 --> 00:36:00,239 Speaker 1: Thank you for listening to mind Over Murders.