Speaker 1: UH, and we felt that was a bit of a
Speaker 1: gap in the market for xop as well as also
Speaker 1: the fact that you know xopp in terms of the
Speaker 1: XVP army has a very large following globally UH and
Speaker 1: we're generally part of that as well.
Speaker 2: So this episode is brought to you by Uphold, which
Speaker 2: is a great crypto platform that makes it easy to buy, sell,
Speaker 2: and stay crypto assets. Uphold has over three hundred plus cryptocurrencies,
Speaker 2: including Bitcoin in all the top all coins, and they
Speaker 2: offer a crypto staking on over nineteen crypto assets. I've
Speaker 2: been a user of the platform for many years. They
Speaker 2: are safe and reliable, they don't commingle or lend out
Speaker 2: your crypto funds, and they are one hundred percent reserve.
Speaker 2: You can review their transparency report. Uphold also offers an
Speaker 2: amazing rewards program where you can earn up to five
Speaker 2: point two five percent on stable coins. This rewards program
Speaker 2: also allows you to get twenty four hour early access
Speaker 2: to new tokens that they list, and to participate, you
Speaker 2: just simply have to open the app once per month,
Speaker 2: deposit fifty dollars once per month, and trade fifty dollars
Speaker 2: once per month, and the stable coins that they support
Speaker 2: includes ripples r l USD. You can earn up to
Speaker 2: five percent on that stable coin and five point twenty
Speaker 2: five percent on USBC. So if you'd like to learn
Speaker 2: more about Uphold and all the great services they offer,
Speaker 2: visit the link in the description. Hey, folks, welcome into
Speaker 2: the Thinking Crypto Podcast. I'm your host, Tony Edward, and
Speaker 2: joining me today is Kevin Chin, who's the executive chairman
Speaker 2: and CEO of Vivo Power, and Adam Trademan, who's the
Speaker 2: chairman of the Board of Advisors for Vivo Power and
Speaker 2: the former CEO of SBI Ripple Asia. Kevin, Adam, great
Speaker 2: to have you both.
Speaker 3: Thank you, Tony. Thanks, happy to be here, Yeah, great
Speaker 3: to be on. Thank you.
Speaker 2: Yeah. I'm super excited to speak with you both because
Speaker 2: we of course got the very big news of Vivopower
Speaker 2: adopting an XRP Treasury Reserve asset strategy, and you're doing
Speaker 2: much more than that. So I have a lot of
Speaker 2: questions for you, but let's kick it off with some
Speaker 2: quick introductions. Kevin, tell us a bit about your background
Speaker 2: and Vivo Power as well.
Speaker 3: Sure, Tony, thanks again.
Speaker 1: So background wise, I've been an entrepreneur across different industries
Speaker 1: for twenty plus years, both from an operational and an
Speaker 1: investing perspective. My crypto journey actually started with buying XRP
Speaker 1: in twenty sixteen, so that was my first coin that
Speaker 1: I bought, and I was attracted to the utility and
Speaker 1: it's mission then of disrupting and improving payment flows around
Speaker 1: the world, particularly to emerging markets. I do a whole
Speaker 1: bunch of stuff in developing nations, both from a for
Speaker 1: profit as well as nonprofit perspective, and could see some
Speaker 1: of the real life challenges there. So, you know, fast
Speaker 1: forward to today, when the opportunity came about to turn
Speaker 1: Vivo into a crypto, I was sorry an XTRP focus,
Speaker 1: not just Treasury company, but Treasury and DeFi Solutions company.
Speaker 1: I really felt convicted to do that, as did the
Speaker 1: rest of the board, and fortudiously was able to meet Adam,
Speaker 1: and Adam has been instrumental, given his background and experience
Speaker 1: to help us launch and we're now in full blown
Speaker 1: execution mode.
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's exciting, Adam. I know of your background because
Speaker 2: we've spoken many times over the years, but for those
Speaker 2: who may not know, you give us a bit of
Speaker 2: a background on yourself.
Speaker 4: Sure, Thanks Tony, and thanks again for having us on.
Speaker 4: It's great to talk to you again. I'm originally an
Speaker 4: engineer from Sylvie Valley. I was actually in a completely
Speaker 4: different industry and JIP design started my career at NASA
Speaker 4: and cal Tech. Over time after moving to the Valley,
Speaker 4: I became a serial entrepreneur and then the founding CEO
Speaker 4: of five companies. Raised about three hundred million dollars for
Speaker 4: those companies, and it was fortunate enough to build great
Speaker 4: products and teams and make my team's employees and shareholders
Speaker 4: money as a result of that by exiting those companies.
Speaker 4: I got into crypto about ten years ago or eleven
Speaker 4: twenty fourteen. To be honest, I was really, really skeptical
Speaker 4: at first. I probably mentioned that to you when we
Speaker 4: spoke before. I was approached by an ex employee of
Speaker 4: mine to get into crypto. He said bitcoin is the
Speaker 4: most important thing going on in your lifetime. I thought
Speaker 4: it was crazy. I didn't talk to him for a year.
Speaker 4: He's now a much wealthier man than I am. But
Speaker 4: about a year later we joined forces and created the
Speaker 4: first bitcoin, which at the time was the only cryptocurrency
Speaker 4: self custody wallet that was in the Apple App Store
Speaker 4: on the day that Apple allowed the coin apps. We
Speaker 4: built that business up to about fifteen million users in
Speaker 4: twenty million in assets on platform and sold it to Coinbase.
Speaker 4: I was at Coinbase for a while. Parallel to all that,
Speaker 4: as you mentioned before, I was the CEO of SBI
Speaker 4: and Rivols joint venture in Asia based in Tokyo, handling
Speaker 4: rivals to Asia business mainly for across wordter financial transactions remittances,
Speaker 4: you know, and to kind of promote and license their
Speaker 4: technology to large banks, central banks in Southeast Asia and
Speaker 4: other parts of Asia as well, so get a lot
Speaker 4: of exposure. I sat on the board of Ribel Labs
Speaker 4: for a while, also very very intimate with them, and
Speaker 4: so when Kevin approached me with the vision for Vivo Power,
Speaker 4: my background gave a unique perspective and so I decided
Speaker 4: to join the company as the chairman of their advisory board.
Speaker 4: I think we've all been watching digital asset treasury companies
Speaker 4: after Michael Sailor's huge success of micro Strategy Meta Planet
Speaker 4: in Japan as well, obviously a huge success, and now
Speaker 4: there's gosh, over one hundred other ones out there. View
Speaker 4: of Power was the first with XRP and made a
Speaker 4: big announcement as you mentioned a few weeks ago, with
Speaker 4: a big financial race on top of that in collaboration
Speaker 4: with Ripple. So that's exciting. But what really attracted me
Speaker 4: to Kevin and his team where they're not just another
Speaker 4: digital asset play. It's not just about how can I
Speaker 4: buy into the underlying asset in this case XRP through
Speaker 4: a public equities market with their nastactorate at stock VPR.
Speaker 4: It's about their strategy to really grow the whole XRPL
Speaker 4: ecosystem and really grow the pie. And they have material
Speaker 4: ways that they're doing that, from a venture fund to
Speaker 4: their own businesses, promoting and adopting XRP as a payment
Speaker 4: method and a method of I'm streating money and across
Speaker 4: order solution, as well as really trying to figure out
Speaker 4: how to support the ecosystem in a variety of new ways.
Speaker 4: So instead of just holding the asset like micro strategies doing,
Speaker 4: the VVO team is really trying to grow the overall
Speaker 4: XRFL ecosystem, and I think that's what brought me and
Speaker 4: my interest to the company and what also keeps us
Speaker 4: really closely hitched to ripple as well.
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's so fascinating this trend that is happening. It
Speaker 2: seems to be a paradigm shift of how corporates and
Speaker 2: enterprises can adopt crypto and to your point, not just
Speaker 2: hold the asset, but go beyond that. You know, do
Speaker 2: you see this being a trend that continues to grow
Speaker 2: and a new way for companies to monetize and also
Speaker 2: preserve their wealth or the cash on their balance sheet.
Speaker 4: Right, So I mean treachery management for any company private
Speaker 4: or public is there's fonsibility of the aufice of the
Speaker 4: CFO generally, right, and they have a variety of methods
Speaker 4: that they use in tradfi in order to try to
Speaker 4: make a return on their assets, the currency and other
Speaker 4: assets that they're holding, right as a responsibility to their shareholders. Again,
Speaker 4: whether they're private or public. I think companies like micro
Speaker 4: Strategy and Vivo Power we are we are the vanguard,
Speaker 4: We are the tivitys sphere, right, we are the ones
Speaker 4: who are pioneering this strategy of not only holding crypto
Speaker 4: on our balance sheets, but really trying to hit an
Speaker 4: m NAV that is that is higher than the net
Speaker 4: asset value, Right, by doing things that go beyond just
Speaker 4: holding the asset. My theory, Tony is today it's companies
Speaker 4: like us that are holding crypto on the balance sheet.
Speaker 4: Sometime in the not too distant future, every private and
Speaker 4: public company is going to be holding crypto on their
Speaker 4: balance sheet. It's just the right thing to do for
Speaker 4: your shareholders.
Speaker 2: Wow.
Speaker 1: And just just to add to that, Tony, you know,
Speaker 1: what we're seeing around the world is legislation being passed
Speaker 1: by government.
Speaker 3: By stock exchanges.
Speaker 1: To allow companies to hold digital ascets and crypto on
Speaker 1: their balance sheets, whereas previously, you know, in countries like
Speaker 1: South Korea, you know, Pakistani UEE, that that wasn't permissible.
Speaker 2: Kevin. For those who may not know of Vivo Power,
Speaker 2: and when you went public and so forth, tell us
Speaker 2: a bit about what the company does and when did
Speaker 2: you go public.
Speaker 1: Sure, So we actually went public in late twenty sixteen,
Speaker 1: so we'd been a listed company on Nasdaq for almost
Speaker 1: a decade. We started off as a solid development company,
Speaker 1: grew very fast, you know, went from zero to twenty
Speaker 1: mili bit dara in two years, and that was really
Speaker 1: what kind of spawned the interest to take us public.
Speaker 1: Over the years, it's been you know, a choppy ride
Speaker 1: at times, and we about five six years ago also
Speaker 1: entered by acquisition to the electric vehicle business, albeit in
Speaker 1: a niche.
Speaker 3: It's a very large niche.
Speaker 1: It's sort of for off road applications, so we do
Speaker 1: electric vehicle conversions for safari operators, for mining, for agriculture,
Speaker 1: so on and so forth. We decided to about a
Speaker 1: year ago spin out that business into a separate listed company,
Speaker 1: so we were looking to repurpose Vivo into a new business,
Speaker 1: and we've been working on this digital asset strategy for
Speaker 1: you know, since September last year, So that's a bit
Speaker 1: of the history.
Speaker 2: Now. The decision to choose XRP as the asset because
Speaker 2: there's bitcoins, ethan others out there. Was it because of
Speaker 2: your initial investment in XRP, going back to your first
Speaker 2: foray in crypto assets, or was there another reason that.
Speaker 3: Was part of it?
Speaker 1: So I have genuine conviction in XRP and what it's
Speaker 1: doing and what it can do in terms of a
Speaker 1: raft of DeFi solutions right for markets around the world
Speaker 1: that we've been active in in terms of investing and
Speaker 1: operating businesses. So that was a big part of it
Speaker 1: for sure, but also you know, by virtue of the
Speaker 1: fact that you know, I think there's more than one
Speaker 1: hundred bitcoin treasury companies as well, we felt that was
Speaker 1: you know, quite crowded already and there are people doing
Speaker 1: it very well in the markets already. Similarly with Solana
Speaker 1: and EATH, there were already sort of other players you know,
Speaker 1: coming to market or already you know, launched, and we
Speaker 1: felt there was a bit of a gap in the
Speaker 1: market for XRP.
Speaker 3: As well as also the fact that.
Speaker 1: You know, XRP in terms of the XRP army has
Speaker 1: a very large following globally and.
Speaker 3: And we're generally part of that as well.
Speaker 1: So you know that that was that, you know that
Speaker 1: some of the reasons.
Speaker 2: And can people who right now can access let's say
Speaker 2: an x r P e t F use this stock
Speaker 2: as kind of a pseudo e t F to to
Speaker 2: get exposure to XRP.
Speaker 3: Yeah, basically, that's that's our.
Speaker 1: Strategy with respect to allowing those who would like to
Speaker 1: get exposure to XRP or ripple in terms of you know,
Speaker 1: not not just the token, but in terms of DeFi solutions.
Speaker 1: You know, as Ada mentioned, we will be investing in
Speaker 1: companies that are building off the x RPL ledger. We
Speaker 1: are also committed to investing surplus fear at US dollars
Speaker 1: into r l U s D, which is the.
Speaker 3: Stable coin you know for ripple.
Speaker 1: So to the extent someone wants to gain exposure to
Speaker 1: XRP and the broader sort of ripple ecosystem and mission
Speaker 1: of helping to grow that pie, this is a listed
Speaker 1: regulated proxy for doing.
Speaker 4: That, that's right. So VVPR stock is basically a proxy
Speaker 4: in an equity form for XRP and also for sort
Speaker 4: of the entire ecosystem. Like Kevin said, in addition to
Speaker 4: investing in XRPR related companies, our goal with that is
Speaker 4: to help companies that can help us, right ye, earn
Speaker 4: yield on our XRP holdings, so that we can actually
Speaker 4: earn yield on that XRP the workholding, which will create
Speaker 4: hopefully an increase in our net assets, right and hopefully
Speaker 4: a better return for our shareholders. That's the ultimate goal, right.
Speaker 4: So we're definitely a proxy for the you know, here
Speaker 4: in the in the US, Tony, you can't there's a
Speaker 4: big market, say for MicroStrategy. When people want to buy
Speaker 4: in their retirement accounts, right, like their four oh one
Speaker 4: k or iris. Right, there's no way to buy XRP
Speaker 4: there today, and so you're right, VVPR offers a great
Speaker 4: proxy for folks who who want to get XRP exposure
Speaker 4: but otherwise can't directly.
Speaker 2: And with the DeFi component. I'm curious about this and
Speaker 2: is the yield so to speak, going to be paid
Speaker 2: out in like a dividend.
Speaker 4: Right, so that that would be that would be the plan,
Speaker 4: and so it would be a direct benefit for the users. Now,
Speaker 4: the current generation ETFs like that you see for dickcoin
Speaker 4: or whatever, they can't actually or theory of they can't
Speaker 4: actually go and generate a yield and do staking and
Speaker 4: other things. Right, So even the upcoming XRP ETF will
Speaker 4: probably be held back in that scenario. So in this case,
Speaker 4: you're you're getting the benefit of that upside through the
Speaker 4: exposure in the equity. I think that's a real differentiator
Speaker 4: for potential investors.
Speaker 2: Oh absolutely, I love that, And I know a lot
Speaker 2: of institutions and folks are hunting for yield because they
Speaker 2: hold the asset, but if they can get the yield
Speaker 2: with it, that would be It's really a great incentive.
Speaker 4: Can you imagine if if Michael Saylor was doing that
Speaker 4: micro strategy, just how much more that company would be successful.
Speaker 4: And that's why we're trying to kind of one up
Speaker 4: you know, that sort of standard model in the Treasury's list.
Speaker 2: Sure, Now as far as the purchasing of XRP, are
Speaker 2: using the cash on your balance you or are you
Speaker 2: raising debt to do that?
Speaker 1: We're raising equity to do that at the moment. So
Speaker 1: we have an anchor investor in his role, Highness Prince
Speaker 1: Subdulaziz from Saudi Arabia, So he himself has been a
Speaker 1: holder of xed up piece since twenty seventeen. So that's
Speaker 1: how the kind of dots joined and why it was
Speaker 1: interested in the project as well with us. So at
Speaker 1: the outset, we're using equity uh to to fund you know,
Speaker 1: the build out of the treasury and DeFi Solutions strategy.
Speaker 1: In terms of debt, we don't have plans to you know,
Speaker 1: take on debt at this stage, you know, to increase,
Speaker 1: but in in due time if it makes sense and
Speaker 1: if the cost of capital equation stacks up and the
Speaker 1: sort of risk reward stacks up, then we would consider
Speaker 1: doing so.
Speaker 4: Is it similar to the Michael Saylor's model, Tony where
Speaker 4: he always says delucion is a creative which you know,
Speaker 4: is that is an illogical thing to say, but he
Speaker 4: has proven that he's right, right, So it's a similar
Speaker 4: kind of thing. You issue more shares, right, and to
Speaker 4: use that to buy the underlying outset, and then as
Speaker 4: a result you end up ultimately outperforming the underlying outset,
Speaker 4: and so there is appreciation, say in micro strategy stock price,
Speaker 4: that's pretty imperant.
Speaker 3: Yeah.
Speaker 2: Absolutely. Now there was an announcement of a partnership with
Speaker 2: Bidgo for custody as well as Flair for the DeFi yield.
Speaker 2: Tell us about those partnerships and how do you foresee
Speaker 2: working with those folks.
Speaker 4: Well, Bicco for custody. I've worked with Biko since the
Speaker 4: beginning of Bicco. Actually know the founder as well and
Speaker 4: the whole team there, so there's a lot of trust
Speaker 4: and we've been a customer there as many times before
Speaker 4: my companies have right and so yes, our press release
Speaker 4: talked about using them for as a custody provider as
Speaker 4: well as an OTC desk for our Fiat conversions into
Speaker 4: XRP and then to custody the XRP and r l
Speaker 4: USD that we as a company are holding, So we're
Speaker 4: excited to be working with them. They're best in class,
Speaker 4: US based and a really really great team of people
Speaker 4: when it comes to Flare, Flair is our first partner
Speaker 4: on the DeFi yield generation piece. Ripple as an investor
Speaker 4: in Flair, we've known the Flair team for a very
Speaker 4: long time. I have to my prior work in crypto.
Speaker 4: There's a lot of trust there. Ripple really highly recommends
Speaker 4: them as well, so they're going to be our first
Speaker 4: partner where we're in trusting XRPE onto their network in
Speaker 4: order to generate yield.
Speaker 2: Now you mentioned also holding our l U s D
Speaker 2: which is Ripples stable coin also you can generate yield
Speaker 2: from that in doing different things. But are you planning
Speaker 2: to also use the stable coin for payments, whether it
Speaker 2: be cross border, internal or whatever it may be?
Speaker 3: Absolutely absolutely so.
Speaker 1: You know, we're active through various parts about business, particularly
Speaker 1: across South East Asia, developing nations in Africa like Ghanner
Speaker 1: and Kenya, and we've experienced, you know, firsthand, and we
Speaker 1: still do experience it, the friction of you know, international
Speaker 1: wiring and so that's getting caught up in the swift system.
Speaker 1: So our o USD is you know, something that's growing
Speaker 1: itself and we're committed to using that.
Speaker 3: In terms of some of our businesses as well.
Speaker 1: So actually in the next few weeks we're going to
Speaker 1: start trialing that with regards to some of our Philippines
Speaker 1: based businesses already.
Speaker 2: And obviously you're using our l U s D And
Speaker 2: obviously the XRP ledger is connected to Ripple, but you're
Speaker 2: not working with Ripple directly. You're independent, right.
Speaker 1: We're independent, but you know, by virtue of Adam and others,
Speaker 1: we've formed a good relationship. We were we were at
Speaker 1: the XRP conference in Singapore, the APEX conference two weeks ago,
Speaker 1: so we met you know, all the scenic guys.
Speaker 3: And girls and the team.
Speaker 1: Fell it very much welcomed, you know, in terms of
Speaker 1: being part of the XRP ecosystem. You know, met with
Speaker 1: Hugo at Flair and his team. They are you know,
Speaker 1: very generous and warm in terms of introducing us to
Speaker 1: folks as well. So whilst it's not an official arrangement
Speaker 1: if you like, at this stage, we know them, we
Speaker 1: work with them and you know, we genuinely want to
Speaker 1: help grow the pie Tony.
Speaker 4: I would say we're highly aligned with the Ripple vision,
Speaker 4: but we're obviously independent from them. One of the things
Speaker 4: that that does that is beneficial to the overall ecosystem
Speaker 4: is we're not in any way sort of held back
Speaker 4: by the issues that they've had with the SEC compliance
Speaker 4: and regulatory things that they need to deal with in
Speaker 4: their business and have been actually very successful in doing.
Speaker 4: But that gives us sort of a parallel track, if
Speaker 4: you will, right, And there's a lot of connections between
Speaker 4: what we do and what they do, and a lot
Speaker 4: of goodwill as well. But basically it's all about growing
Speaker 4: the buye and so yes, we're very heavily aligned with that.
Speaker 2: Now, a question I have, and I would ask Michael
Speaker 2: Saylor this if I got the interview again and some
Speaker 2: of the other folks who are doing these treasury strategies. Obviously,
Speaker 2: markets move in cycles, right. You have your bull markets,
Speaker 2: your bear markets, and there's volatility, and crypto is very volatile.
Speaker 2: Let's say the price of XRP continues to go up
Speaker 2: and then but eventually there's a turn down the market,
Speaker 2: as with all markets, how does that affect the x
Speaker 2: RP you're holding, and how do you prepare for that?
Speaker 1: Great question, Tony, And you know, this was a discussion
Speaker 1: we had in Singapore actually with some of the senior
Speaker 1: leaders at Rebulm, you know, and what we said to
Speaker 1: them is that you know, right now and let's be
Speaker 1: let's be upfront about this, that there is, you know,
Speaker 1: some fervor in the markets in terms of treasury based strategies,
Speaker 1: if you will. I've been in the markets for twenty
Speaker 1: five years as an investor IPO five different companies, and
Speaker 1: so I've seen all the cycles, you know, have been
Speaker 1: through it with Vivopower as well. And what we said
Speaker 1: to Ripple's leadership is that what's really important for us
Speaker 1: is that we will still be here in five years time,
Speaker 1: in ten years time, irrespective of what goes on in
Speaker 1: the market. And the market is inherently volatile, more so
Speaker 1: in crypto than the stock markets. That is an asset though,
Speaker 1: that is an asset that you know, you can generate yield,
Speaker 1: you can make returns off. And that's part of our
Speaker 1: goal here is to acknowledge that volatility, to take advantage
Speaker 1: of it in a sense, to create value and to
Speaker 1: create yield, and I think with regards to you know,
Speaker 1: you know, even in I think recent weeks, we've seen
Speaker 1: some correction, if you will, in terms of you know,
Speaker 1: some of the listed treasury plays.
Speaker 3: That doesn't bother us.
Speaker 1: I think it was always coming and that is why
Speaker 1: I think in terms of our strategy of not just
Speaker 1: being an asset holding treasury company, but also engaging and
Speaker 1: building def solutions that ultimately generate income and cash. That's
Speaker 1: the biggest point of differentiation. That's the reason why we'll
Speaker 1: still be here in five years time, ten years time,
Speaker 1: creating value for our shareholders.
Speaker 2: Got it that It absolutely makes sense, and I see
Speaker 2: how critical the yield component is not just only asset
Speaker 2: but being able to earn off of it and can
Speaker 2: help position you to through maybe.
Speaker 3: A bear market exactly exactly.
Speaker 2: Now. I don't know if this makes sense, but I
Speaker 2: think you both know what's happening with tokenization and a
Speaker 2: lot of companies are looking to put stocks and equities
Speaker 2: on the blockchain. Are you looking at potentially tokenizing your
Speaker 2: stock and what that happened on the x RP ledger
Speaker 2: and other blockchains as well.
Speaker 1: Yeah, great question again, Tony, I think at this stage
Speaker 1: you know, we have talked about it. I think there's
Speaker 1: still too much regulatory, regulatory risk and uncertainty with regards
Speaker 1: to doing that. Really there's only I mean, there's there's
Speaker 1: really only one company of note that's that's done it,
Speaker 1: which is PayPal, and they did have some issues, you know,
Speaker 1: under previous you know, sec leadership. That's gone away for now.
Speaker 1: But our view is it's probably too early to try it.
Speaker 1: And you know, the whole issue of being defined as
Speaker 1: a secure is you know, is a very nuanced one,
Speaker 1: and right now we don't feel it's the right focus
Speaker 1: for us at this job ship. You know, it doesn't
Speaker 1: mean we won't do it in future, but I think
Speaker 1: regulation needs to be far clearer before we embark on that.
Speaker 2: Yeah, great point, because here in the United States we're
Speaker 2: still waiting for clarity the market structure regulations still being
Speaker 2: worked on. I know in the EU they have the microregulations,
Speaker 2: and I'm not sure if Hong Kong and these other
Speaker 2: jurisdicims have put out regulations. But even so, the tokenization
Speaker 2: component is still more clarity needed from major global markets.
Speaker 3: Exactly exactly with regards.
Speaker 2: To the strategy around XRP, do you see this being
Speaker 2: a long term strategy that you know, this ACCID class
Speaker 2: is still young, it's going to mature. And are you
Speaker 2: looking you know what type of time horizon I guess
Speaker 2: is my question, are you looking at with holding this
Speaker 2: asset and continuing to.
Speaker 3: Buy it as well?
Speaker 1: I we we we think in sort of five year
Speaker 1: cycles when we when we when we formulate strategy and
Speaker 1: execution plans. So we definitely see you know, growth in
Speaker 1: x r P, x R P, L R O U
Speaker 1: s D and the you know, the DeFi ecosystem around
Speaker 1: that over the next five years. And you know, I
Speaker 1: think more broadly as you would have seen, you know,
Speaker 1: circles done very well post I p o H, and
Speaker 1: you know that's starting to elevate to public awareness. You know,
Speaker 1: the opportunity was stable coin number one, but number two.
Speaker 1: I think this whole area of DeFi has been you know,
Speaker 1: confined to crypto circles. But I think over the next
Speaker 1: five years it's going to become more and more understood
Speaker 1: and mainstream. Uh And and you know without a question
Speaker 1: that there is a very strong set of talents, you know,
Speaker 1: behind that. So we definitely see over the next five
Speaker 1: years commitment to and building out of and contributing to
Speaker 1: the xop ecosystem void by these talids.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I'm fascinating to see how this all plays out.
Speaker 2: It's it's an exciting time. And to see this technology
Speaker 2: growing and getting adoption from institutions to public companies like yourself,
Speaker 2: it's just amazing. And I'm just fascinated as to what
Speaker 2: the new innovations are going to be and use cases
Speaker 2: and much more. You know, as far as your outlook
Speaker 2: on the crypto market, and Kevin, you can kate off
Speaker 2: and I would love to get Adam's take as well.
Speaker 2: You know, where do you see this market this year?
Speaker 2: Do you see legislation getting passed? Do you see a
Speaker 2: lot of innovation happening and kind of happening globally as well.
Speaker 2: It's not just the United States.
Speaker 1: I think the regulatory settings and not just in the US,
Speaker 1: but globally are becoming far more accommodating, very very quickly.
Speaker 1: As I mentioned, you know, even countries like Pakistan hitherto
Speaker 1: you know, six months ago, you know, you just don't
Speaker 1: talk crypto, but now it's it's being embraced and we're
Speaker 1: seeing that, you know, in.
Speaker 3: Many countries around the world.
Speaker 1: So that is very important in terms of then providing
Speaker 1: confidence to investors, to entrepreneurs to accelerate, you know, building
Speaker 1: out of you know, defied solutions which are much needed
Speaker 1: and I would argue even more so in developing nations
Speaker 1: than in more developed nations.
Speaker 3: So that's that's exciting.
Speaker 1: And from a personal perspective, you know, as I mentioned,
Speaker 1: we've got projects and businesses in the Philippines which we
Speaker 1: can see tangibly the benefits of some of these solutions
Speaker 1: that are being built at the moment. So I think,
Speaker 1: for sure there will be volatility. There always is. I
Speaker 1: think as the asset class matures, that volatility will start
Speaker 1: to taper off, as it does you know in all
Speaker 1: forms of assets, as you know, institutional adoption increases. But
Speaker 1: still it's not it's going to be a nonlinear journey, right,
Speaker 1: but the direction of travel will be onwards and upwards
Speaker 1: for sure.
Speaker 4: Go ahead and add to that for you, Tony. So
Speaker 4: I think the inflows due to institutional buying and ets,
Speaker 4: what they do is they create a really strong floor
Speaker 4: for the price of you know, bitcoin and etherory mis
Speaker 4: and sort of a stable floor for crypto in general
Speaker 4: and not including kind of like the all coins right,
Speaker 4: the top ten on coin market cap. Creating that more
Speaker 4: stable floor means, as Kevin said, things won't be as voluable,
Speaker 4: but it also means the downside risk I think is
Speaker 4: going down. It's one of these it's too big to fail,
Speaker 4: the snowball, you know, continues to grow. It's you know,
Speaker 4: whichever analogy you prefer to use, right, So I think
Speaker 4: that that's great for the industry. And now couple that
Speaker 4: with the fact that those ETFs got approved under the
Speaker 4: previous administration, whereby the SEC was super anti crypto, right,
Speaker 4: and you look at what we have now, like the
Speaker 4: next three and a half years are going to be
Speaker 4: the most incredible for crypto that we've ever seen. We've
Speaker 4: finally got I don't know if I would say regulatory clarity,
Speaker 4: but I would say that we've got a green field
Speaker 4: in terms of being able to innovate. And I think
Speaker 4: that for the current length of time that the current
Speaker 4: administration is in the White House, you're going to see.
Speaker 2: A lot happen.
Speaker 4: You know, I've heard hedge funds and vcs in this space.
Speaker 4: They're they're saying, now is the time, We're going to
Speaker 4: do everything right now, right, it's never been a more
Speaker 4: friendly environment. So there's a lot of money being poured
Speaker 4: into the industry. It's not just about investment in any
Speaker 4: given asset, it's about in building out the ecosystem and
Speaker 4: building out new solutions.
Speaker 3: Right.
Speaker 4: So you know, I probably said this to you when
Speaker 4: we spoke years ago as well, right, But the time
Speaker 4: has It's never been a better time, essentially, right. And
Speaker 4: I think that that really helps because the US leads
Speaker 4: the world in kind of setting these standards, and it's
Speaker 4: the sort of sec position that has been that has
Speaker 4: become a lot more understanding of financial innovation in crypto
Speaker 4: is what's bleeding over internationally into all these other markets, right,
Speaker 4: And to Kevin's point, there's there was a lot of
Speaker 4: hesitation in some of those other markets, which is now
Speaker 4: you know, sort of melting right and lightning up. So
Speaker 4: I'm really excited. I think this is a great time
Speaker 4: to be doing what we're all doing, and I think
Speaker 4: it's going to be a great next three and a
Speaker 4: half years at least, and hopefully well beyond that. Now's
Speaker 4: the time to invest, Now's the time to build a
Speaker 4: solid base, right, and now's the time to really you know,
Speaker 4: hit that hit that h you know that uh, that
Speaker 4: part of the curve right where you've got the hockey stick.
Speaker 3: Oh.
Speaker 2: Absolutely, it's exciting and it just seems like all the
Speaker 2: stars are aligning for the industry exactly. Yeah.
Speaker 4: And that's exactly the phrase that Kevin uses all the
Speaker 4: time as well, Right, the stars are aligning. It's it's
Speaker 4: the point of the hockey stick going up.
Speaker 3: Uh.
Speaker 4: And you've got sort of this entire environment that is
Speaker 4: that is fueling that and we we've really never had
Speaker 4: that before in the history of crypto m hmm.
Speaker 2: Yeah. I mean from a lot of uncertainty to being attacked,
Speaker 2: you know, is the saying, first they ignore you, they
Speaker 2: laugh at you, then they fight you to win.
Speaker 3: Right now they're jealous.
Speaker 4: But I think another big tell Tony is all the
Speaker 4: TRAPFI institutions meaning thanks right, really starting to embrace and
Speaker 4: get involved.
Speaker 3: Right.
Speaker 4: They at first thought it was a joke, right, then
Speaker 4: they felt competitive, right, And now they're embracing And that's huge, right,
Speaker 4: I mean with the launch of the ETFs, especially the
Speaker 4: ability to approach all these new retail and institutional investors.
Speaker 4: I mean, it's just it's I remember when I got
Speaker 4: started in twenty fourteen and bitcoin was you know, at
Speaker 4: around I don't know, one hundred bucks or something like that.
Speaker 4: It was really hard to believe that we would get
Speaker 4: to this stage. And I'm just so proud of the
Speaker 4: entire industry that we have.
Speaker 2: I don't know, I'm not sorry if you're sure, if
Speaker 2: you saw this news, you as well, Kevin, But I
Speaker 2: think it was just last week JP Morgan they capitulated
Speaker 2: and they're going to launch their deposit token on a
Speaker 2: public blockchain. Years ago they tried to build a private,
Speaker 2: permissioned wall garden, but it seems I think they're all
Speaker 2: recognizing now, even black Rock and these other folks, they're
Speaker 2: launching your tokenized treasuries on public blockchains and that's the
Speaker 2: way to go. So I think that that question has
Speaker 2: been answered. You know, will have private punp permission from
Speaker 2: the big bangs takeover, and obviously not a.
Speaker 4: Private blockchain is just a database anyway, It's nothing but that, right,
Speaker 4: So you're right, But I think for them it's an
Speaker 4: obvious business choice. It opens up business for them beyond
Speaker 4: their current customer base, right, and it's a huge financial opportunity.
Speaker 4: I think it just takes time for them to get
Speaker 4: comfortable with vetting sort of the seriousness of the market.
Speaker 4: I think seeing the inflows into the ETFs went into
Speaker 4: that sort of management decision that they made. And also,
Speaker 4: you know, the SEC the new SEC physician I think
Speaker 4: is really important for them as well. So that's it, man,
Speaker 4: it really does feel like it's snowball is really big
Speaker 4: right now and it's not going away.
Speaker 2: Kevin, this is a question for you. I don't know
Speaker 2: if it's the right thing to say a trend or
Speaker 2: this strategy, I should say, a blueprint that Michael Saylor
Speaker 2: has put out there. How do you see your company,
Speaker 2: Viva Power years from now. Is it more of a
Speaker 2: asset holding company x RP asset holding company and ecosystem
Speaker 2: or still the ethos of what the company is about
Speaker 2: and what the services and products you provide.
Speaker 1: I think we will evolve, and I think it will
Speaker 1: evolve beyond just an asset holding XOP holding XOP focused
Speaker 1: treasury company. But we will activate and build out more
Speaker 1: of the defied solution side of the equation, and our
Speaker 1: goal is to have value created as a result of that.
Speaker 1: Number one through sort of investing. As Adam mentioned, we
Speaker 1: have a VC side pocket sleeve to do that, but
Speaker 1: also to generate you know, revenues and fee income from
Speaker 1: some of these defile solutions that we've started to invest
Speaker 1: in and build on. So I think it will morph
Speaker 1: into a revenue generating company, a yield generating company.
Speaker 4: That's the ultimate goal, just to add on to that
Speaker 4: tony Right, Like most of these treasury companies are focused
Speaker 4: on a net asset like bitcoin or ethereum that don't
Speaker 4: have a native utility, right, They're doing that because those
Speaker 4: assets like bitcoin, for example, are deemed a store of value,
Speaker 4: So it seems logical that that would be sort of
Speaker 4: the asset that you'd have in a treasury holding company, right.
Speaker 4: But actually we believe that using a token which has
Speaker 4: real utility is even more powerful because we can influence
Speaker 4: that utility, and through that influence, like growing the ecosystem,
Speaker 4: we can influence a supply and demand of that token. Right,
Speaker 4: Michael Sailor is doing amazing thing which he can't other
Speaker 4: than buying himself, right, or he can't influence the supply
Speaker 4: and demand directly right through business operations. We're going to
Speaker 4: be doing that and enabling a lot of other companies
Speaker 4: in the ecosystem to do that.
Speaker 3: So that that's.
Speaker 4: A real differentiator that we're excited about. And so when
Speaker 4: Kevin talks about sort of expanding you know, the role
Speaker 4: that vivil power can play, I think that plays into
Speaker 4: it a lot as well.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I'm very fascinated about how this changes the identity
Speaker 2: of certain companies and and you know, even the ethos.
Speaker 2: It's just fascinating in a good way, you know, not
Speaker 2: that it's anything bad, just uh, with this acid class
Speaker 2: and truly being global and the public companies around the
Speaker 2: world can do this is just fascinating to see how
Speaker 2: they morph and what they become.
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, well they're really there. Really isn't a.
Speaker 1: You know, well known you know, if you ask people
Speaker 1: about Okay, what's what's a big treasury company? Everyone knows
Speaker 1: Meta Strategy or micro Strategy and Metea Planet in Tokio.
Speaker 1: But if you ask people what's listed DeFi Solutions company
Speaker 1: there is there really isn't one, per se. So we'd
Speaker 1: like to be one of those. And that's that's the
Speaker 1: long term goal MHM.
Speaker 2: And as you build out the DeFi ecosystem, can both
Speaker 2: retail and institutions participate or will certain things just be
Speaker 2: exclusive to let's say institutions.
Speaker 1: No, I think, you know, the the exercise here with
Speaker 1: respect to Vivo is to democratize that access, you know,
Speaker 1: to a company that's doing not just you know, asset management,
Speaker 1: if you will, but also building out DeFi solutions and
Speaker 1: investing in DeFi solutions, so anyone can can invest by
Speaker 1: you know, buying Vivo stock to gain exposure to that.
Speaker 4: And then of course those solutions that we're going to
Speaker 4: help build in the ecosystem, I'm sure will also be
Speaker 4: available to other customers, right, and there would be no
Speaker 4: reason why they wouldn't be scalable to institutional and retail
Speaker 4: customers as well. Right, But for right now, the Vivo
Speaker 4: stock is basically the proxy right for getting involved in
Speaker 4: supporting not only the underlying XRPS, but the whole ecosystem growth.
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's really great. I love the democratization that this
Speaker 2: technology provides, and a lot of people who are not
Speaker 2: able to get access to certain things now can and
Speaker 2: just simply by having a smartphone and internet connection they
Speaker 2: can participate. So it's really great. Obviously, you guys have
Speaker 2: a lot going on, a lot of developments. Anything you
Speaker 2: can share that's on the roadmap. I know some things
Speaker 2: may be under NBA and waiting for pr release, but
Speaker 2: what can we expect in the next six months, or.
Speaker 1: We have a lot going on and we're just very
Speaker 1: focused on execution. Tony being listed, we have to be
Speaker 1: a bit careful, you know, in terms of what we
Speaker 1: do say, but it's fair to say that in terms
Speaker 1: of the stated strategy with regards to XRP, you know
Speaker 1: we are going to be adding to reserves. We're not
Speaker 1: going to do it slavishly. We're going to do it
Speaker 1: in a smart way. And we've got a very experienced CFO,
Speaker 1: David Mansfield ex Goldman's ex Checkie Morgan, very disciplined guy.
Speaker 1: So we'll be judiciously building our x RP reserves. And
Speaker 1: then we've already started to look at investing and starting
Speaker 1: due diligence on DeFi projects and solutions that are part
Speaker 1: of Ripple's ecosystem, but also with regards to some of
Speaker 1: our existing businesses as well leveraging you know, XOPPL and
Speaker 1: the ecosystem. So stay tuned that there will be a
Speaker 1: lot of a lot of news, a lot of developments
Speaker 1: that will share.
Speaker 2: That's exciting. I can't wait, and I know there's a
Speaker 2: lot of x RP holders and people in the x
Speaker 2: ORP army who are uh, you know, really excited about
Speaker 2: this and watch this unfold and come to fruition. So really,
Speaker 2: really great stuff, Kevin Adam, I love it. Thank you
Speaker 2: so much for taking the time to discuss this, and
Speaker 2: you know we can do a round two as things progress.
Speaker 4: Sounds good, Tony, thanks again for having us on.
Speaker 3: We appreciate it. Thanks thanks for having us, Donny, have
Speaker 3: a great day.