WEBVTT 1 00:00:00.240 --> 00:00:02.560 Talk about a way to escape reality for a while. 2 00:00:02.640 --> 00:00:05.000 The annual comic convention offered plenty of out of this 3 00:00:05.080 --> 00:00:08.640 world excitement, including far out comic books, souvenirs, and even 4 00:00:08.640 --> 00:00:10.599 futuristic looking Star Wars computer game. 5 00:00:10.640 --> 00:00:11.400 Pretty much happened. 6 00:00:11.439 --> 00:00:13.839 Many were there just to expand their comic book collections, 7 00:00:14.039 --> 00:00:16.280 while others were there just to gaze at the galaxy 8 00:00:16.280 --> 00:00:17.440 of characters on hand. 9 00:00:34.520 --> 00:00:37.719 Welcome to this special San Diego Comic Con episode of 10 00:00:37.719 --> 00:00:41.280 Amusing Jews, where we celebrate Jewish contributors and contributions to 11 00:00:41.320 --> 00:00:45.200 American popular culture. With a comic con quickly approaching, it's 12 00:00:45.240 --> 00:00:48.560 a great time to explore its origins, which happened to 13 00:00:48.560 --> 00:00:52.079 be pretty Jewish. I'm Jonathan Friedman and I'm Joey Angelfield. 14 00:00:52.320 --> 00:00:55.719 Producer engineer Mike Tomren is working somewhere behind the scenes 15 00:00:55.960 --> 00:00:59.039 Amusing Jews as a project of a Dot Kavareem Congregation 16 00:00:59.119 --> 00:01:02.960 for Humanistic the Jewish Museum of the American West, and 17 00:01:03.039 --> 00:01:04.519 Atheist United Studios. 18 00:01:04.760 --> 00:01:07.680 We're excited to talk with Matthew Klickstein, a pop culture 19 00:01:07.760 --> 00:01:10.599 historian and author of See You at San Diego, An 20 00:01:10.680 --> 00:01:13.480 Oral History of Comic Con Fandom and the Triumph of 21 00:01:13.519 --> 00:01:17.280 geek Culture, and Gus Krueger, an art director and designer 22 00:01:17.319 --> 00:01:19.680 for the theme park industry and son of Comic Con 23 00:01:19.799 --> 00:01:23.680 co founder Ken Krueger. Matthew and Gus, Welcome to Amusing Jews. 24 00:01:23.799 --> 00:01:25.640 Thank you forrapping. Well, it's great to be here. 25 00:01:25.840 --> 00:01:28.640 So I understand that you guys are doing an oral 26 00:01:28.760 --> 00:01:31.400 history of the San Diego Comic Con on July twenty third. 27 00:01:31.480 --> 00:01:32.280 What's that all about? 28 00:01:32.439 --> 00:01:35.400 So, of course we've already actually done the oral history 29 00:01:35.439 --> 00:01:40.959 now twice. We did a podcast series for Sirius XM, 30 00:01:41.040 --> 00:01:44.159 although they partnered with us to produce it, and they 31 00:01:44.159 --> 00:01:46.799 were great and really helping it to become a very 32 00:01:46.799 --> 00:01:49.719 substantive I don't even really like to call it a podcast. 33 00:01:49.719 --> 00:01:53.319 It's more of an audio docu series called Comic Con Begins. 34 00:01:53.439 --> 00:01:56.519 It's available everywhere for free, so whether people are listening 35 00:01:56.560 --> 00:01:59.079 to it on Spotify or anywhere else, they can listen 36 00:01:59.120 --> 00:02:01.480 to it there. We did that in twenty twenty and 37 00:02:01.519 --> 00:02:06.159 then we adapted that into this huge encyclopedic five hundred 38 00:02:06.200 --> 00:02:09.520 page book called See You at San Diego that Fanographics 39 00:02:09.520 --> 00:02:12.680 put out in twenty twenty two. So we've done the 40 00:02:12.800 --> 00:02:16.400 oral history now twice. We've also done a few other 41 00:02:16.439 --> 00:02:20.439 smaller projects, and we're looking also into developing a documentary 42 00:02:20.960 --> 00:02:22.560 that we've been putting together for the last couple of 43 00:02:22.639 --> 00:02:24.840 years as well. And with all that in mind, we 44 00:02:24.879 --> 00:02:27.680 thought it would be great to do an actual live event. 45 00:02:28.319 --> 00:02:28.599 Again. 46 00:02:28.879 --> 00:02:31.680 We've done similar live events before in other places, but 47 00:02:31.680 --> 00:02:34.840 we've never actually done one at Comic Con proper, and 48 00:02:34.919 --> 00:02:36.159 we just felt it was time to. 49 00:02:36.120 --> 00:02:37.159 Really make that happen. 50 00:02:37.360 --> 00:02:40.159 And Gus, who's the son of Ken Kruger, one of 51 00:02:40.199 --> 00:02:42.080 the co founders of Comic Con, as you noted in 52 00:02:42.120 --> 00:02:45.560 the introduction, is generous enough to come and join us, 53 00:02:45.599 --> 00:02:48.159 and we have about six or seven other what we 54 00:02:48.240 --> 00:02:51.960 like to call comic con ogs, people who either also 55 00:02:52.039 --> 00:02:55.080 like Ken, helped to create comic Con, but also a 56 00:02:55.120 --> 00:02:56.759 few other people who were just there in the early 57 00:02:56.840 --> 00:02:59.639 days who helped to kind of shape it into it's 58 00:02:59.680 --> 00:03:03.319 hard to say what it is today, but definitely the 59 00:03:03.360 --> 00:03:06.000 original spirit of Comic Con went back when it was 60 00:03:06.000 --> 00:03:08.479 a little smaller, a little more intimate, and there's no 61 00:03:08.680 --> 00:03:10.800 question that they are all in their own ways, kind 62 00:03:10.800 --> 00:03:14.560 of creators of what became Comic Con. And we'll be 63 00:03:14.599 --> 00:03:17.680 there at the panel and we'll just talk about the 64 00:03:17.719 --> 00:03:20.800 old days of comic Con. People can tell stories, Audience 65 00:03:20.840 --> 00:03:24.680 members are encouraged to ask questions, and yeah, it's going 66 00:03:24.719 --> 00:03:26.759 to be great. It's free, it's open to the public. 67 00:03:26.840 --> 00:03:29.520 You do not need a badge to go to it. 68 00:03:29.599 --> 00:03:31.680 We are off site. It's going to be about five 69 00:03:31.719 --> 00:03:34.080 minute walk away from the convention center in the gas 70 00:03:34.120 --> 00:03:36.719 Lamp district. For people who go to Comicon regularly and 71 00:03:36.800 --> 00:03:39.639 noticing Diego, they know it's right there. It's basically a 72 00:03:39.639 --> 00:03:43.080 block away and we're really excited about We're doing it 73 00:03:43.080 --> 00:03:46.199 at a place called Bards and Carts, and we're doing 74 00:03:46.240 --> 00:03:48.879 it on Thursday, July twenty third, from two pm to 75 00:03:48.879 --> 00:03:49.599 three pm. 76 00:03:49.639 --> 00:03:51.479 That's such a short timeframe. 77 00:03:51.759 --> 00:03:53.919 In all fairness, they're actually giving us an hour and 78 00:03:53.960 --> 00:03:57.199 a half. And if you can believe it, a lot 79 00:03:57.199 --> 00:03:59.520 of the Comic Con og speak even more than I do, 80 00:03:59.759 --> 00:04:01.840 so I wouldn't be surprised if we go a little 81 00:04:01.840 --> 00:04:04.520 bit longer. But that's the time that we've kind of 82 00:04:04.520 --> 00:04:07.159 put aside to do it because and this is something 83 00:04:07.879 --> 00:04:09.759 we could talk about a little bit more and people 84 00:04:09.840 --> 00:04:12.439 go to comic Con. No, there's so much that's happening 85 00:04:12.439 --> 00:04:14.319 at Comic Con. All the time I'm literally going to 86 00:04:14.319 --> 00:04:16.759 be coming from a signing. We have a couple of 87 00:04:16.759 --> 00:04:18.639 people on our panel who have to leave, like right 88 00:04:18.639 --> 00:04:22.519 away because they've got another panel. One thing that you know, 89 00:04:22.560 --> 00:04:25.079 some people have some issues about what Comic CON's would 90 00:04:25.120 --> 00:04:29.000 come today, just how big, how loud, how overstimulating, how overwhelming, 91 00:04:29.040 --> 00:04:31.920 and in some ways, you know, very very commercial, and 92 00:04:31.959 --> 00:04:33.800 that kind of thing. But one thing that hasn't changed 93 00:04:33.879 --> 00:04:37.600 is there's so many different cultures and passions that are represented, 94 00:04:37.639 --> 00:04:40.439 and there's a lot to do. So yeah, you know, 95 00:04:40.439 --> 00:04:43.120 it'd be great to do something for five or six hours, 96 00:04:43.160 --> 00:04:44.759 but the reality is there's so many. 97 00:04:44.680 --> 00:04:45.560 Other things going on. 98 00:04:45.920 --> 00:04:47.560 And one other thing I do have to say, just 99 00:04:47.600 --> 00:04:50.839 because it's so important anyone else who's tried to do 100 00:04:50.879 --> 00:04:54.680 something like this, we are extremely lucky and grateful to 101 00:04:54.720 --> 00:04:56.800 Bards and Cards that they're letting us do this at all, 102 00:04:56.920 --> 00:04:59.079 even for an hour hour and a half. I'm not 103 00:04:59.240 --> 00:05:02.040 exaggerating when I say that all the other venues that 104 00:05:02.079 --> 00:05:04.839 I was calling that were a bit bigger or more 105 00:05:04.839 --> 00:05:07.079 public or that kind of thing. I one of them 106 00:05:07.879 --> 00:05:11.279 asked for one hundred thousand dollars, another asked for fifty 107 00:05:11.360 --> 00:05:15.439 thousand dollars. Even the public library nearby wanted to do this, 108 00:05:15.639 --> 00:05:18.560 but they just with budget cuts, they really had to charge. 109 00:05:18.600 --> 00:05:20.680 It would have been probably at least ten thousand dollars 110 00:05:21.240 --> 00:05:24.279 for an hour or two, because these are places that 111 00:05:24.319 --> 00:05:28.199 are used to opening up space for activations and things 112 00:05:28.199 --> 00:05:32.160 for Marvel, for Universal, for these companies that have, you know, 113 00:05:32.199 --> 00:05:34.279 millions and millions of dollars to blow on stuff like that. 114 00:05:34.399 --> 00:05:38.040 So yeah, yeah, an hour might not seem like that long. 115 00:05:38.120 --> 00:05:40.519 But boy, I'm just grateful that we even get it 116 00:05:40.519 --> 00:05:42.199 at all, and that we got it for free because 117 00:05:42.680 --> 00:05:45.160 none of us have any money, so we wouldn't have 118 00:05:45.199 --> 00:05:46.839 been able to pay a hundred thousand dollars for it. 119 00:05:46.879 --> 00:05:49.800 And Gus, you were there at the beginning with your dad, 120 00:05:49.800 --> 00:05:53.199 how do you feel about the way that it's become 121 00:05:53.279 --> 00:05:57.560 so commercial and so difficult to book these things. I 122 00:05:57.600 --> 00:05:59.079 think in the old days it would have been a 123 00:05:59.079 --> 00:06:00.759 lot easier to have a panel like this. 124 00:06:01.279 --> 00:06:03.439 Yeah, it's funny because my first comic con I was 125 00:06:03.480 --> 00:06:08.279 literally a baby. So my first comic con was nineteen 126 00:06:08.319 --> 00:06:11.000 seventy three, and I'm just a baby. My dad here's 127 00:06:11.000 --> 00:06:12.839 the first chairman of comic con, so he kind of 128 00:06:12.920 --> 00:06:15.079 was the guy that helped facilitate all that, but he 129 00:06:15.120 --> 00:06:16.959 also sold at the show. He was more of a 130 00:06:16.959 --> 00:06:20.120 bookseller than that a comic person, but he had a 131 00:06:20.120 --> 00:06:22.879 shop that sold comics. And it's all in the book. 132 00:06:23.279 --> 00:06:24.439 I'm sure they'll cover it. 133 00:06:25.160 --> 00:06:27.480 Including pictures of baby guests. They are also. 134 00:06:27.839 --> 00:06:31.480 Yeah, yeah, So it's it's funny because so many of 135 00:06:31.480 --> 00:06:33.680 my stories were just like, I'm just a little kid 136 00:06:33.720 --> 00:06:34.920 watching people do stuff. 137 00:06:35.040 --> 00:06:35.199 Right. 138 00:06:35.279 --> 00:06:39.680 So I think comic con has grown bigger because the 139 00:06:39.800 --> 00:06:43.959 acceptance of pop culture has grown bigger. And it's not yes, 140 00:06:44.199 --> 00:06:47.720 in anything that grows bigger, there's corporations that want to 141 00:06:47.720 --> 00:06:50.240 make money on it, and that's the bottom line. These 142 00:06:50.279 --> 00:06:53.399 people are all there because the companies you know, are 143 00:06:53.399 --> 00:06:55.680 doing that. So for me, I think it's a natural 144 00:06:55.720 --> 00:06:59.360 progression of what it was. Unfortunately, I think because of that, 145 00:06:59.519 --> 00:07:01.720 there are certain aspects of what it was that. 146 00:07:02.639 --> 00:07:04.959 You know, it used to just be like, you know, 147 00:07:05.000 --> 00:07:05.680 it was a lot. 148 00:07:05.560 --> 00:07:07.480 Easier for people to just go and hang out with 149 00:07:07.519 --> 00:07:09.839 their friends and sit in the corner and like rummage 150 00:07:09.879 --> 00:07:13.040 through long comic boxes and just spend hours doing that. 151 00:07:13.160 --> 00:07:15.920 And now you spend hours trying to find a place 152 00:07:15.959 --> 00:07:18.600 with long comic boxes at the show. To be honest, 153 00:07:18.680 --> 00:07:24.759 it's it's it's a different thing, but I still go 154 00:07:25.040 --> 00:07:27.800 and I still like it. Although I will it is 155 00:07:27.839 --> 00:07:31.720 a very different experience, and I think that I'm just 156 00:07:31.879 --> 00:07:34.680 sort of very accepting of change in the way it is, 157 00:07:34.800 --> 00:07:38.319 so instead of bemoaning what it's not, I kind of 158 00:07:38.360 --> 00:07:41.079 just appreciate what it is having grown up around it. 159 00:07:41.199 --> 00:07:43.199 I just love going to San Diego. It's a great 160 00:07:43.240 --> 00:07:45.680 excuse every year to go to San Diego and sort 161 00:07:45.680 --> 00:07:49.360 of relive the feelings I had as a kid going 162 00:07:49.399 --> 00:07:51.279 to that and being able to go with my dad. 163 00:07:51.399 --> 00:07:55.879 Unfortunately he's no longer with us, but just going makes 164 00:07:55.920 --> 00:08:00.079 me feel closer to him and to the event. So 165 00:08:00.160 --> 00:08:04.360 it's it's you know, it's it's hot and cold the 166 00:08:04.360 --> 00:08:06.800 way I feel on it. But at the end of 167 00:08:06.839 --> 00:08:09.319 the day, I couldn't imagine missing it. I just could not. 168 00:08:09.439 --> 00:08:11.680 I've been able to unfortunate enough to take my kids 169 00:08:12.160 --> 00:08:16.040 now they're fourteen and eleven, and I think they've maybe 170 00:08:16.120 --> 00:08:19.600 missed two cons their entire life, Like I've been able 171 00:08:19.639 --> 00:08:21.360 to take them and bring them up in this, so 172 00:08:21.439 --> 00:08:23.680 their oppression. What Comic On has become is going to 173 00:08:23.720 --> 00:08:27.959 be totally different than what mine is. Yeah, I'm very 174 00:08:28.079 --> 00:08:30.079 zen about it, but I do realize that for a 175 00:08:30.079 --> 00:08:33.960 lot of people, it's a lot. Man, it's a lot 176 00:08:35.120 --> 00:08:37.559 enjoining the show, click like and subscribe. 177 00:08:38.360 --> 00:08:41.200 I know that. Unfortunately in Matthew you might talk about this, 178 00:08:41.919 --> 00:08:45.879 but the comic on itself isn't necessarily interested in its 179 00:08:45.879 --> 00:08:49.200 own history. So gus, do you get like a free 180 00:08:49.240 --> 00:08:51.559 pass or do you have to sign up like everybody else? 181 00:08:51.639 --> 00:08:52.039 Thank you. 182 00:08:52.840 --> 00:08:57.200 I'm fortunate enough to have been through my father, I 183 00:08:57.240 --> 00:09:01.279 was able to get into one of their gold badges, 184 00:09:01.320 --> 00:09:02.879 is what they call it. But I do have that, 185 00:09:02.960 --> 00:09:05.039 so I'm able to take care of myself and my family. 186 00:09:05.919 --> 00:09:08.240 So I don't have that, but I have the same issues, 187 00:09:08.279 --> 00:09:10.039 Like I have to worry about my hotel. I'm on 188 00:09:10.120 --> 00:09:12.120 my own. Like the only thing I don't have to 189 00:09:12.120 --> 00:09:16.519 worry about is actually getting into the show because I'm 190 00:09:16.600 --> 00:09:21.360 a they call it is always approved professional. That's their 191 00:09:21.399 --> 00:09:23.679 designation for it, which which is great because I don't 192 00:09:23.679 --> 00:09:25.720 have to worry about credentials and all. 193 00:09:25.600 --> 00:09:26.080 Of that stuff. 194 00:09:26.080 --> 00:09:28.559 But yeah, you know, we're all still in the same fight. 195 00:09:28.600 --> 00:09:31.440 We've got to get unless we're a guest of a 196 00:09:31.440 --> 00:09:34.600 certain level. Through the con. We've got to figure out 197 00:09:34.600 --> 00:09:36.440 our own hotels. We've got to do all this stuff. 198 00:09:36.480 --> 00:09:40.480 And luckily, I've been fortunate with the Comic Cons hotel 199 00:09:40.519 --> 00:09:42.440 lottery system, so I've been able to get close. But 200 00:09:43.000 --> 00:09:45.559 I'm just like everybody else. I'm fighting to get into 201 00:09:45.600 --> 00:09:50.279 the off sites. I'm fighting to get anything else. But 202 00:09:50.519 --> 00:09:52.759 you know, there's that one perk, and I'm very grateful 203 00:09:52.759 --> 00:09:54.600 that I still have that ability to do so. 204 00:09:54.879 --> 00:09:59.759 Gus makes a good point that there is that perk. 205 00:10:00.000 --> 00:10:01.799 I was gonna say there are some perts. Really, it 206 00:10:01.799 --> 00:10:04.279 seems like it's just the one that there is something 207 00:10:04.320 --> 00:10:07.440 called the gold badge that a few of the old 208 00:10:07.440 --> 00:10:10.639 timers are able to get, but also some of them don't, 209 00:10:10.840 --> 00:10:14.639 and it, even to an outsider like myself, sometimes feels 210 00:10:14.679 --> 00:10:18.240 a little bit arbitrary. And the other aspect of it 211 00:10:18.279 --> 00:10:20.639 that Gus just brought out is not only true for 212 00:10:20.840 --> 00:10:24.320 a lot of these people, but anybody, I mean anybody 213 00:10:24.320 --> 00:10:26.080 will tell you that one of the hardest things about 214 00:10:26.120 --> 00:10:28.759 going to Comic Con is finding. 215 00:10:28.399 --> 00:10:29.200 A place to stay. 216 00:10:29.840 --> 00:10:33.679 Yeah, he's for those who didn't hear it, he used 217 00:10:33.720 --> 00:10:37.039 the word lottery. I mean, it's not just about paying 218 00:10:37.080 --> 00:10:41.200 for the rooms, which are extremely expensive because all of 219 00:10:41.200 --> 00:10:44.720 the hotels and everything in the area, you know, double triple, 220 00:10:44.840 --> 00:10:49.159 quadruple their costs. But that's true with all the restaurants 221 00:10:49.200 --> 00:10:51.480 in the area, all the coffee shops. I mean, it's 222 00:10:51.519 --> 00:10:55.159 like going to you know, Coachella or some other big 223 00:10:55.240 --> 00:10:56.559 music festival or anything else. 224 00:10:56.600 --> 00:10:57.519 I mean it's seven. 225 00:10:57.320 --> 00:11:00.440 Dollars bottles of water and twenty dollars sam which is 226 00:11:00.480 --> 00:11:03.799 and every place has a specialty menu that they have 227 00:11:04.000 --> 00:11:07.559 just for Comic Con. And I don't begrudge the businesses. 228 00:11:07.679 --> 00:11:08.840 I mean, more power to them. 229 00:11:08.840 --> 00:11:13.240 As we all know, it's difficult to keep independent businesses going, 230 00:11:13.279 --> 00:11:15.080 and to their credit, a lot of them are. It's 231 00:11:15.080 --> 00:11:18.000 not just chain restaurants and stuff there. As Gus said, 232 00:11:18.240 --> 00:11:20.120 one of the great things about going to Comicon is 233 00:11:20.120 --> 00:11:23.480 San Diego, especially downtown San Diego and Gas Lamp is 234 00:11:23.519 --> 00:11:26.759 so vibrant and eclectic. There's all different kinds of bars 235 00:11:26.799 --> 00:11:29.559 and restaurants, and many of them have been there for generations. 236 00:11:30.279 --> 00:11:31.080 I would say. 237 00:11:30.840 --> 00:11:35.279 Most of them are independent and our local, so it's 238 00:11:35.279 --> 00:11:37.360 not just a bunch of you know, Applebee's and things 239 00:11:37.399 --> 00:11:39.039 like that, which is a great part about going to 240 00:11:39.039 --> 00:11:41.320 Comic Con. So you know, they're doing what they can 241 00:11:41.480 --> 00:11:43.600 the same business. I know for a fact that a 242 00:11:43.639 --> 00:11:45.879 lot of them they make all their money for the year, 243 00:11:46.759 --> 00:11:49.240 you know, during Comic Con, during COVID, whenever this got 244 00:11:49.320 --> 00:11:51.799 shut down. It was really hard for the whole downtown area, 245 00:11:52.159 --> 00:11:54.279 not just because of COVID itself and everything else that 246 00:11:54.320 --> 00:11:56.759 was going on, but to not have Comic Con for 247 00:11:56.840 --> 00:11:59.399 a couple of years was devastating to a lot of 248 00:11:59.399 --> 00:12:02.720 the businesses in that area because that's what keeps them going. 249 00:12:03.320 --> 00:12:04.600 And I know a lot of them are still playing 250 00:12:04.639 --> 00:12:07.519 ketchup from that from a few years ago. So it's 251 00:12:07.879 --> 00:12:09.879 it is difficult that even with a. 252 00:12:09.799 --> 00:12:12.039 Badge, it's very hard to go to comic Con. 253 00:12:12.159 --> 00:12:14.639 Reflecting back on something that Gus was saying, and also, 254 00:12:14.759 --> 00:12:17.399 you know something I saw in the book, which is 255 00:12:17.440 --> 00:12:19.960 a really you know, wonderful oral history, is some people 256 00:12:20.039 --> 00:12:22.720 kind of described it as a religious experience and you know, 257 00:12:23.039 --> 00:12:25.480 wouldn't miss Maybe Matthew you Can started by talking a 258 00:12:25.519 --> 00:12:29.080 little bit about, you know, the Jewish connection that is 259 00:12:29.120 --> 00:12:31.200 sort of there in comic Con. 260 00:12:31.320 --> 00:12:33.360 Well, it was definitely a Jewish connection to Comic Con. 261 00:12:33.399 --> 00:12:38.559 The most obvious one is that some people didn't particularly 262 00:12:38.639 --> 00:12:39.080 like him. 263 00:12:39.200 --> 00:12:40.480 Some people did. 264 00:12:40.399 --> 00:12:45.080 Like him, shel Dorf, who's considered kind of number one 265 00:12:45.159 --> 00:12:48.399 founder along with Ken and a few of these other people, 266 00:12:48.960 --> 00:12:51.519 just because he came from Detroit where they were doing 267 00:12:51.519 --> 00:12:53.720 something called the Triple Fanfare, and that that really was 268 00:12:53.799 --> 00:12:57.559 kind of the kernel that became the popcorn of comic Con, 269 00:12:58.200 --> 00:13:00.720 along with you know, people helping out like Ken and 270 00:13:00.879 --> 00:13:03.919 Richard alf and people like Scott Sean, a few others 271 00:13:03.919 --> 00:13:06.639 that are still around, Dave Clark, Roger Freedman and Mike 272 00:13:06.679 --> 00:13:09.360 Towery and a few of these other people, most of 273 00:13:09.360 --> 00:13:12.840 whom will be on our panel, by the way. But 274 00:13:12.960 --> 00:13:15.600 Shell was people would say, kind of like number one 275 00:13:15.720 --> 00:13:18.080 in his own way. And he was Jewish. He was 276 00:13:18.080 --> 00:13:21.759 a religious jew. He had a religious funeral, They put 277 00:13:21.759 --> 00:13:25.799 the pebbles on the tombstone, the whole deal. He was 278 00:13:25.879 --> 00:13:28.080 going to synagogue at the end of his life, from 279 00:13:28.120 --> 00:13:30.159 what I understand, and no, Gus, you might know better 280 00:13:30.200 --> 00:13:32.360 than I, but I understand he kind of stepped in 281 00:13:32.399 --> 00:13:33.960 and out. But by the end of his life he 282 00:13:34.039 --> 00:13:38.279 definitely was very religious, and you know, so there's that 283 00:13:38.360 --> 00:13:44.039 Jewish connection also kind of spiritually and on kind of 284 00:13:44.039 --> 00:13:46.600 the celebrity side at least in the early days. A 285 00:13:46.639 --> 00:13:48.240 lot of people would say that there were probably three 286 00:13:48.399 --> 00:13:51.960 visionaries in the industry so to speak, who really helped 287 00:13:51.960 --> 00:13:54.759 to support and inspire comic Con at the very beginning, 288 00:13:55.039 --> 00:13:59.320 and that was Jack Kirby, Ray Bradberry, and Forrest Ackerman. 289 00:13:59.679 --> 00:14:03.799 And those three, Jack Kirby and Forrest Ackerman were Jewish 290 00:14:03.919 --> 00:14:07.080 and particularly Jewish. It's one of the things that you know, 291 00:14:07.159 --> 00:14:09.840 is really strong about Jack Kirby's legacy is his connection 292 00:14:09.960 --> 00:14:13.159 to Jewish culture and everything else, and of course his 293 00:14:13.200 --> 00:14:16.799 connection to another very prominent Jew in the community, Stan Lee. 294 00:14:17.840 --> 00:14:21.799 Although Ray Bradbury was not Jewish, he's, like Gush and 295 00:14:21.840 --> 00:14:23.799 some of these other folks, kind of an honorary jew 296 00:14:23.919 --> 00:14:25.720 just because so many of his friends growing up were 297 00:14:25.759 --> 00:14:28.399 Jewish and he was very close with people like Forie 298 00:14:28.440 --> 00:14:30.919 Ackerman and many of these others. So, yeah, there was 299 00:14:30.919 --> 00:14:33.559 always a lot of Jewish culture in comic con, not 300 00:14:33.679 --> 00:14:37.240 to mention just the staples that really helped to create 301 00:14:37.279 --> 00:14:40.840 the pop culture machine of comic Con early on, all Jewish, 302 00:14:41.159 --> 00:14:45.159 Rod Serling for Twilight Zone again, Kirby and stan Lee, 303 00:14:45.320 --> 00:14:48.360 obviously the Superman Boys, Jerry Siegel and Joe Schuster. 304 00:14:49.519 --> 00:14:50.879 You know all these various people. 305 00:14:50.960 --> 00:14:54.279 I mean, comics itself really came out of you know, 306 00:14:54.440 --> 00:14:59.360 Italian and Jewish young boys and a few gals in 307 00:14:59.519 --> 00:15:02.440 New York and certain places the Midwest. But there's a 308 00:15:02.480 --> 00:15:04.919 lot of Jewish heritage there as well as the science 309 00:15:04.919 --> 00:15:08.159 fiction world and the pop culture world that really helped 310 00:15:08.200 --> 00:15:11.679 us spawn the fandom that drove comic Con and that 311 00:15:11.759 --> 00:15:16.000 propelled it. And so yeah, there's a lot of Jewish 312 00:15:16.279 --> 00:15:19.039 DNA in comic Con and in fandom writ large, and 313 00:15:19.080 --> 00:15:21.279 in pop culture at large. And I think it's important 314 00:15:21.320 --> 00:15:24.559 that we don't forget that, and we support and acknowledge 315 00:15:24.559 --> 00:15:25.639 and recognize that as well. 316 00:15:25.960 --> 00:15:28.399 Yeah, two people who are featured very prominently in the 317 00:15:28.480 --> 00:15:32.200 oral history that come to mind of Jewish persuasion are 318 00:15:32.240 --> 00:15:36.320 Trina Robbins and Lloyd Kaufman. And certainly when I was 319 00:15:36.679 --> 00:15:39.240 younger and the comic Con was different back in the 320 00:15:39.360 --> 00:15:43.840 early nineties, the Lloyd Kaufman table was the place to go. 321 00:15:44.120 --> 00:15:45.960 You know, that was kind of the centerpiece of the 322 00:15:46.000 --> 00:15:49.080 whole event for me. I don't know if it still 323 00:15:49.120 --> 00:15:51.480 has that place. I know he still goes there. Is 324 00:15:51.759 --> 00:15:55.399 what's the vibe around Lloyd Kaufman at comic Con these days. 325 00:15:55.600 --> 00:15:59.879 Lloyd is a very emblematic of some of the changes 326 00:15:59.919 --> 00:16:02.039 that we've been talking about and that we discuss a 327 00:16:02.120 --> 00:16:04.320 lot in the podcast, in the book, that we'll talk 328 00:16:04.360 --> 00:16:07.679 about in the panel. Again, I try to be very 329 00:16:07.720 --> 00:16:11.039 diplomatic about the way that I talk about this, but 330 00:16:11.080 --> 00:16:13.919 the reality is that anybody could say, you know, comic 331 00:16:13.919 --> 00:16:17.000 Con started with one hundred people, then three hundred people, 332 00:16:17.039 --> 00:16:19.159 then thousands of people, and now it's hundreds of thousands 333 00:16:19.159 --> 00:16:21.840 of people. It brings in more revenue every year than 334 00:16:22.240 --> 00:16:24.799 the Super Bowl as far as advertising and that kind 335 00:16:24.799 --> 00:16:28.360 of thing is concerned. So it's of course a very 336 00:16:28.360 --> 00:16:30.039 different beast than it was back in the day. And 337 00:16:30.080 --> 00:16:32.679 as Gus said, he's right, Look, there's gonna be changes 338 00:16:32.679 --> 00:16:34.120 that are going to happen, whether we like it or not. 339 00:16:34.159 --> 00:16:35.039 We can't not do that. 340 00:16:35.080 --> 00:16:37.639 I mean, they can't hold comic Con at you know, 341 00:16:37.759 --> 00:16:40.000 a little hotel basement again anymore. 342 00:16:40.039 --> 00:16:41.279 It's not gonna work, obviously. 343 00:16:42.279 --> 00:16:44.200 So there have been a lot of changes that happen, 344 00:16:45.000 --> 00:16:48.559 and part of that is people like Lloyd Kaufman, who 345 00:16:48.679 --> 00:16:53.320 was really an early adopt you know, adapter to comic 346 00:16:53.320 --> 00:16:56.480 Con back when the Film Studios didn't come back when 347 00:16:56.480 --> 00:16:59.840 there really wasn't a lot of Hollywood or film, even 348 00:16:59.840 --> 00:17:04.160 in dependent film like lloyd presence and represent representation there. 349 00:17:04.440 --> 00:17:06.880 It is a misconception for people who think that Comic 350 00:17:06.880 --> 00:17:08.599 Con used to just be about comic books, and hey, 351 00:17:08.599 --> 00:17:11.799 it used to be about comic books. Why isn't about 352 00:17:11.839 --> 00:17:14.480 comic books anymore? Well, from day one, it was always 353 00:17:14.480 --> 00:17:16.880 about everything, and that's really important to remember. Gus said, 354 00:17:16.920 --> 00:17:19.640 his first comic Con was in nineteen seventy three. Comic 355 00:17:19.640 --> 00:17:22.880 Con started in nineteen seventy. By seventy three, there already 356 00:17:22.960 --> 00:17:26.039 was special areas just for Star Trek, for example. There's 357 00:17:26.039 --> 00:17:29.960 science fiction, there's King Kong, there's Universal Monster movies, there's animation, 358 00:17:30.160 --> 00:17:34.039 Chuck Jones, June Foray, Bob Clampett. You know, it was 359 00:17:34.079 --> 00:17:37.119 always about all these different kinds of things. But you know, 360 00:17:37.400 --> 00:17:40.640 the film studios didn't have the same kind of representation 361 00:17:40.680 --> 00:17:43.000 that they have there now or what some people would say, 362 00:17:43.279 --> 00:17:46.480 somewhat rightly so kind of dominating the comic con in. 363 00:17:46.480 --> 00:17:48.119 The way that they have over the last few years. 364 00:17:48.480 --> 00:17:50.839 Lloyd was kind of this early guy to come in 365 00:17:50.920 --> 00:17:55.279 with Trauma Films, Trauma Studios, Troma entertainment, and so it 366 00:17:55.319 --> 00:17:57.759 was really exciting for people to have, Hey, now there's 367 00:17:57.839 --> 00:17:59.880 you know, more movie people coming and that kind of thing. 368 00:18:00.119 --> 00:18:03.079 So he was a bit of a godhead at comic Con, 369 00:18:03.519 --> 00:18:05.400 you know, in the in the early eighties and that 370 00:18:05.480 --> 00:18:07.440 kind of thing. It was very exciting for him. And 371 00:18:07.519 --> 00:18:09.200 as he put it, you know, every year they kind 372 00:18:09.200 --> 00:18:12.559 of pushed his table back and back and back and back. 373 00:18:12.880 --> 00:18:14.880 And now, you know, when he. 374 00:18:14.880 --> 00:18:19.680 Does his panel about trauma, it's Saturday night, which anybody 375 00:18:19.680 --> 00:18:21.640 who knows the comic con cycles is not really a 376 00:18:21.640 --> 00:18:23.880 great time. A lot of people are already going home, 377 00:18:23.960 --> 00:18:25.640 a lot of people are burned out from doing it 378 00:18:25.680 --> 00:18:27.480 for a few days, a lot of people are are 379 00:18:27.519 --> 00:18:30.400 at parties and things like that. Saturday night is kind 380 00:18:30.440 --> 00:18:33.599 of a booby prize night. And I've been to the panel. 381 00:18:33.599 --> 00:18:36.240 I've been on the trauma panel. Yeah, you're lucky to 382 00:18:36.279 --> 00:18:38.720 have you know, maybe fifty people come, and it used 383 00:18:38.720 --> 00:18:41.359 to be maybe five hundred people would come. The point though, 384 00:18:41.400 --> 00:18:43.160 that Lloyd makes that I think is important not just 385 00:18:43.160 --> 00:18:46.000 for trauma but for that kind of thing, is those 386 00:18:46.000 --> 00:18:49.079 fifty people who come really love trauma. So it might 387 00:18:49.079 --> 00:18:51.440 not be the quantity, but it's the quality. So he's 388 00:18:51.440 --> 00:18:54.039 still grateful that he gets to go to Comic Con 389 00:18:54.079 --> 00:18:57.319 every year. But yeah, he's got a tiny little booth 390 00:18:57.920 --> 00:19:00.480 that's hard to even get into, that's called sort of 391 00:19:00.519 --> 00:19:03.359 smoshed into this area with a bunch of other horror 392 00:19:03.400 --> 00:19:05.720 film stuff and whatnot. And he used to have much 393 00:19:06.000 --> 00:19:09.640 grander representation there, and you know, he's one of the 394 00:19:09.680 --> 00:19:11.440 people who's kind of gotten shoved a little bit to 395 00:19:11.480 --> 00:19:13.920 the side, but he still goes and he still gets 396 00:19:13.920 --> 00:19:16.519 to do his panel, and there are people like yourself, 397 00:19:16.599 --> 00:19:19.880 Jonathan and others who go to see Lloyd. There's always 398 00:19:19.880 --> 00:19:22.720 a long line, so the people who want to be 399 00:19:22.799 --> 00:19:26.240 there for Lloyd and trauma are there, and he definitely 400 00:19:26.279 --> 00:19:28.880 gets the love there. It's just kind of in a 401 00:19:28.880 --> 00:19:31.279