Speaker 1: Thanks for tuning in to another show in the next
Speaker 1: Real family of film podcasts, I.
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Speaker 3: and discover all the other great perks that come with it.
Speaker 2: The film board gathers. The Gang of Thugs is here
Speaker 2: to take on a movie currently in theaters in this month.
Speaker 2: We're suiting up, grabbing the shield, and stepping into a
Speaker 2: world where power is contested, legacies are tested, and the
Speaker 2: fate of nations rests on the edge of a vibrandamatium blade.
Speaker 2: It's Captain America, Brave New World. I've spent my whole
Speaker 2: life trying to protect this country.
Speaker 4: They see a weapon.
Speaker 5: I see the future, and one.
Speaker 4: That I will create.
Speaker 5: I am here to help you, mister President.
Speaker 4: I got to get our birds in the air.
Speaker 2: Ready to fly now, Sir, Yeah.
Speaker 6: I'm Captain.
Speaker 2: If you fight for a broken system, I'll show you
Speaker 2: the world change.
Speaker 7: Really change.
Speaker 6: Have you been feeling like yourself?
Speaker 2: Somebody gets If we don't stop it now, the world
Speaker 2: will fall. Let go.
Speaker 6: Super Soldiers, mutants, They're nothing compared to what I can
Speaker 6: build with this.
Speaker 4: You ask for me here, I am.
Speaker 5: Your shield won't stop what's coming.
Speaker 4: In Captain.
Speaker 2: In Captain America, Brave New World, our man Sam isn't
Speaker 2: just fighting enemies. He's fighting expectations, political agendas, the ghosts
Speaker 2: of the past, and a deep desire to undo doping regulations.
Speaker 2: A new world order is rising, but is it built
Speaker 2: on justice or mind control? This week we're peeling back
Speaker 2: the skull cap of the Leader, challenging the toxicity of
Speaker 2: the die behind Red Hulk, and judging all the impossible
Speaker 2: choices facing our new cap. And who better to explore legacy,
Speaker 2: power and the cost of heroism than the panel we've
Speaker 2: got today. Don't give him a buzz cut because you'll
Speaker 2: see all those ridges.
Speaker 5: It's just I should have taken this serum, howdy.
Speaker 2: And if you make him really angry, he grows a mustache.
Speaker 2: It's Tommy Mets, the third superhero reference, a man who
Speaker 2: has recently given me reason to repeat, Thank god we
Speaker 2: still have a Steve on our team. At least it's
Speaker 2: Steve's sarmento.
Speaker 1: I'm no Steve Rogers.
Speaker 2: And if the government ever tried to control his mind,
Speaker 2: they'd find movie quotes and snacks all from nineteen ninety
Speaker 2: four it's Mike Gravano from Movie of the Year and
Speaker 2: The Superhero Show Show. Mike, Welcome, they come and read. Now,
Speaker 2: I get it. I get what we're supposed to do
Speaker 2: is we're introduced. Yeah, there're bits, Mike. We're going to
Speaker 2: do our plugs early because I'm so excited that you're
Speaker 2: finally here. Introduce yourself to the good people and tell
Speaker 2: us where you're from. Hello, good people and folks.
Speaker 7: As Pete mentioned, I am on The Superhero Show Show,
Speaker 7: where every week we watch every single TV show based
Speaker 7: on comic books and review them. When we started, there
Speaker 7: were four so it was easy to do and we
Speaker 7: were very young.
Speaker 2: None of those things are true anymore.
Speaker 7: And then Movie of the Year, where each season we
Speaker 7: tackle a year, build a bracket and make them fight
Speaker 7: to find the best movie of that year. We're just
Speaker 7: wrapping up the best of twenty twenty four, which is
Speaker 7: against all the formats I've just said. So we've been
Speaker 7: going through music, TV conedy, TV drama, and finally films.
Speaker 2: Yeah, you know, Album of the Year, Series of the Year.
Speaker 2: I listened to those. I have issues. I'll tell you
Speaker 2: next time we're together. I can't wait. Anyhow, I'm very
Speaker 2: excited to talk about this show, and I'd like to
Speaker 2: open with a segment I call opening thoughts aka, what
Speaker 2: does Tom need to know to be able to talk
Speaker 2: about this movie?
Speaker 4: I was lucky enough to be. I was just in
Speaker 4: Minnesota last week with a friend of the show, Darnell Smith,
Speaker 4: who is an avid marblehead, and he was able to
Speaker 4: give me. So he's watched everything, most importantly Captain Shield
Speaker 4: and Winterman or whatever, and so he was able to
Speaker 4: give me the stuff that I needed to know because
Speaker 4: filled with characters that I'd never seen nor heard of.
Speaker 6: I'm going to be shocked if he knew some of
Speaker 6: the things that he thought he needed to know.
Speaker 5: But anyway, yeah, go forth.
Speaker 2: This is the thing. This is a sequel to a
Speaker 2: movie that's seventeen years old. Really. As global tensions rise
Speaker 2: over another newly discovered metal with world altering potential, Sam Wilson,
Speaker 2: now fully stepping into his role as Captain America, is
Speaker 2: drawn into high stakes political and military conflict. Alongside his
Speaker 2: new falcon Joaquin Torres, and unexpected diminutive allies, Wilson must
Speaker 2: navigate the web of espionage mind control in seventeen years
Speaker 2: past betrayals to prevent a dangerous conspiracy from spiraling out
Speaker 2: of control. That's right, the fate of nations is hanging
Speaker 2: in the balance, and now our Winged Captain America faces
Speaker 2: his greatest test yet, when the challenge is not just
Speaker 2: to strength but his belief in what it truly means
Speaker 2: to be a hero. So much drama right there, there's
Speaker 2: so much drama. Do you like how I didn't spoil
Speaker 2: anything yet? This is where you turn off the show?
Speaker 2: Oh if you haven't seen the movie and you care,
Speaker 2: because now we're going to start spoiling it. I feel
Speaker 2: like we kind of need to talk about how Sam
Speaker 2: Wilson shapes up as a cinematic Captain America, especially as
Speaker 2: he makes the leap from Captain America and The Winter
Speaker 2: Soldier the Disney Plus series. Is that a fair place
Speaker 2: to start? Do we like articular hero at this point
Speaker 2: in the story? And I'm gonna start with Tom because ugh,
Speaker 2: I don't. I don't because I'm a sociopath and on
Speaker 2: some level, sure, what did you think of Winged cap.
Speaker 4: Well, I hadn't seen any of the TV show, and
Speaker 4: I haven't seen all of the films, and so I've
Speaker 4: even't seen some of the films I mean, and so
Speaker 4: this was my main first time seeing him. I felt
Speaker 4: like in action that I can really remember, and I
Speaker 4: thought in the beginning he was very charming, and I
Speaker 4: thought he was neat. He was very cinematic, he was fun,
Speaker 4: He looks the part. He's flipping around doing things. He
Speaker 4: as a character and as a likability source liked the movie.
Speaker 4: For me. I know we didn't do opening thoughts, but
Speaker 4: I'm doubling this is my opening thought of I know
Speaker 4: films are not filmed in chronological order. That would be insane,
Speaker 4: but I feel like this movie secretly was. Because the
Speaker 4: movie started off whip smart, clear eyed, exciting, and then
Speaker 4: slowly got more and more tired and goofy as it went,
Speaker 4: and more and more confused, and by the end, I
Speaker 4: feel everyone just sort of was like, that's a rap.
Speaker 4: I felt like his character unfortunately felt that same way
Speaker 4: to me when I was like, wow, I'm in good hands,
Speaker 4: and then as the script wasn't what I thought it
Speaker 4: was and things changed. He is not able to lift
Speaker 4: up an entire film by himself, nor should he be
Speaker 4: in charge of doing that, But so did that.
Speaker 2: Sort of answer man. Okay, so that I'll just say
Speaker 2: that hurts my heart a little bit because the past
Speaker 2: Cat movies, I felt like our Steve Rogers could hold
Speaker 2: up the movie himself, right. And that's the problem that
Speaker 2: I had walking out of this movie because I have
Speaker 2: such great hopes and desires for Macki and for this
Speaker 2: Sam Wilson. I want more than anything for them to
Speaker 2: be successful. What is this? Who's the We've got JJ Mike.
Speaker 2: You guys are comic guys, superhero guys. Look, we've even
Speaker 2: got the shield on the wall. How does Sam Wilson
Speaker 2: havelf There's so much? How does this live up to
Speaker 2: live up to the legacy of Sam Wilson that we've
Speaker 2: known from the books.
Speaker 7: I'm a I'm a fan of Sam Wilson in general.
Speaker 7: I think his take on Captain America has has been
Speaker 7: very cool. Uh.
Speaker 2: I'm a cap guy.
Speaker 7: That's CAP's my guy in all Shapes reforms and Sam
Speaker 7: Wilson from going from like one of the extended characters
Speaker 7: sidekicks to Captain his own right. Huge fan, big fan
Speaker 7: of Anthony Mackie going back to eight Mile, he was
Speaker 7: great as Clarence. He was the one good part of
Speaker 7: the hurt Locker I find him very charming generally, and
Speaker 7: him and so many people, not just him, felt like
Speaker 7: they forgot how to act in this movie.
Speaker 2: And I don't think that's his fault.
Speaker 7: I think tired Tom is such a good apt description
Speaker 7: because you're allowed to do more than one or two
Speaker 7: drafts of a script, and there's some dialogue that was
Speaker 7: so basic and simple.
Speaker 2: It really felt like they did not push beyond that.
Speaker 2: And even yes, yes, it was like, uh, serious line here,
Speaker 2: then quip and so. And I don't think.
Speaker 7: I think Mackie when he has time to sit in
Speaker 7: a tone, he can do it. But the whiplash of oh,
Speaker 7: now we're talking about serious racial issues and now we're
Speaker 7: gonna quip and what can to just quip it?
Speaker 2: Uh No, nobody, nobody could do it. Nobody could handle that.
Speaker 6: And I mean, I think that both you guys are
Speaker 6: completely correct, And I think the interesting thing that I
Speaker 6: would the thing that I would assert is that Captain
Speaker 6: America as a vehicle for the Marvel Cinematic Universe is
Speaker 6: not about Captain America at all. I think Sam Wilson
Speaker 6: Anthony Mackie as CAP showing up in the TV series
Speaker 6: really worked like the in the in Captain America in
Speaker 6: the Winter Soldier, as he made the sort of evolution
Speaker 6: to become cap By the end of that I believed it.
Speaker 5: I was into it. I was all that things.
Speaker 6: But if you look at what they've done since Winter
Speaker 6: Soldier in the MCU, you get Civil War, which is
Speaker 6: not a Captain America movie. It's just a Marvel movie.
Speaker 6: And this movie, I would argue, is the same thing.
Speaker 6: This is not really a Captain American movie.
Speaker 4: Pete.
Speaker 6: You alluded to it in your intro as well. This
Speaker 6: is a sequel to The Incredible Hulk. This is This
Speaker 6: really has very little to do with Captain America, So
Speaker 6: I agree. I don't think Sam held up the story,
Speaker 6: but I don't think that was his job here. I
Speaker 6: think I think Anthony Mackett did a great job of
Speaker 6: everything he was given here, and then they just played
Speaker 6: out the Marvel things, which and.
Speaker 5: Again we're not doing induistal thoughts, but for me, that
Speaker 5: made this a really good movie.
Speaker 6: This is me, I mean, please do I mean really
Speaker 6: like I This is This is like right in the middle,
Speaker 6: like a nice C plus B minus Marvel movie for me.
Speaker 6: And I'm so happy that they answered many of the
Speaker 6: criticisms that have been happening ever since Endgame with connective tissue.
Speaker 6: In this film, it's a great Marvel lore movie, not
Speaker 6: a great a Captain America movie. But I enjoyed it
Speaker 6: quite a bit for all those things.
Speaker 2: Good all right, Steve, initial thoughts, go ahead, everybody else,
Speaker 2: you've done it.
Speaker 3: Get you know when you're when when you're in middle
Speaker 3: school and you go over to a friend's house, it's like, oh,
Speaker 3: do you have some soda? And they're like sure, You're
Speaker 3: like great, can I have some Doctor Pepper? And they
Speaker 3: pour you something but it's Doctor Thunder, so it tastes
Speaker 3: like Doctor Pepper, but it's like a pale shadow of that,
Speaker 3: like something is just off. It's there in the general
Speaker 3: area of that flavor profile, but it's just not there.
Speaker 3: That's what I felt about this movie. It there were
Speaker 3: so many things where I thought, oh, we're we've got
Speaker 3: sort of second tier Captain America. Oh, we've got this
Speaker 3: mysterious personal security person who's uh widows. So we've got
Speaker 3: a Captain America black widow type of thing that they're
Speaker 3: trying to set up. But there were so many things
Speaker 3: where I felt like it's this rewarmed version of the
Speaker 3: Captain America Winter Soldier we liked, you know, we don't
Speaker 3: have Hydro, Who've got the Serpent Society, And it was
Speaker 3: just always like watered down versions of what we already had.
Speaker 3: It didn't feel like a retread of Winter Soldier. It
Speaker 3: just felt like a really hollow going to Mike's point,
Speaker 3: like a first draft copy of well, let's let's try
Speaker 3: these things again.
Speaker 1: And it had the components.
Speaker 2: It just yeah.
Speaker 3: And to JJ's point, I was looking back through my notes,
Speaker 3: we got so much exposition about Ross at the beginning.
Speaker 3: I'm like, is this a Captain America movie or not?
Speaker 3: Is really the story of you know, Ross and his story,
Speaker 3: because we've got that going on. So I don't think
Speaker 3: the movie settled on whose story this was because I
Speaker 3: wasn't invested in anybody, really, I didn't have a direction
Speaker 3: to be rooting for, and so I just walked out
Speaker 3: with my you know, the bad aftertaste of Doctor Thunder
Speaker 3: at the end of this.
Speaker 2: That was always carib to me. I'd go over to
Speaker 2: my buddy Matt McGarrity's house and his mom would try
Speaker 2: to gaslight me that this chocolate was not carib It
Speaker 2: was carib we all knew, so I you know, I
Speaker 2: guess I'm with you. And I feel like the shape
Speaker 2: of Sam Wilson's Captain America was effectively understudy to the
Speaker 2: octagenarian President story. And that surprised me, maybe more than
Speaker 2: anything else in this movie. I knew obviously that Harrison
Speaker 2: Ford was taking over the role of Thunderbolt Ross, I
Speaker 2: did not know that this was going to be a
Speaker 2: Thunderbolt Ross movie. And I found myself puzzled by that mike.
Speaker 2: And there's a way to wait.
Speaker 7: How clean is this show? I just want to know
Speaker 7: how off I can go clean? No, I'm glad, I asked, ye,
Speaker 7: that's the vibe, so.
Speaker 5: I wish he was party.
Speaker 4: Whatever you want?
Speaker 2: Why I am right now it's so loud.
Speaker 7: Why Winter's Soldier worked is it was pretty pretty clearly
Speaker 7: mapped to like Three Days of the Condor, Right.
Speaker 2: I love political thrillers. This uh as Steve.
Speaker 7: Said, it was pretty poorly mapped to Winter Soldier, And
Speaker 7: you know what have worked, especially if you're gonna put
Speaker 7: Ross is map it too?
Speaker 2: Like Maturian Candidate. Do that again. I would love to
Speaker 2: see make good movies, but now these remake good movies.
Speaker 2: But now they have powers.
Speaker 7: Cool, especially if you're gonna go this Thunderboard Rolls does
Speaker 7: not know he's the Red Hulk, which is very different
Speaker 7: than in the comics. Aim at that and also, don't
Speaker 7: bait and switch us called. I know there's like legal issues,
Speaker 7: but I don't know. Maybe don't make that movie until
Speaker 7: you legally can because it's giving short shrift to Cap
Speaker 7: while he's sort of in the background doing with am
Speaker 7: I supposed to be Cap? I know I had a
Speaker 7: TV show that was about that, but not everybody saw
Speaker 7: that TV show. So I'm gonna I'm gonna do that
Speaker 7: warmed over again as well, Like it's it's unfair now
Speaker 7: drop in a bunch of f bombs.
Speaker 2: This is the This is I think the challenge that
Speaker 2: I have that you're getting at, which is there are
Speaker 2: ideas in this movie that are great. I love the
Speaker 2: idea of gaslighting the president and and that twist from
Speaker 2: the books where Thunderbolt Ross has been taking these pills
Speaker 2: for his heart to keep him alive. I really like
Speaker 2: that idea. Like that concept is awesome.
Speaker 4: I don't know how you screw that up.
Speaker 2: But what what we got on screen by like the
Speaker 2: this movie was structurally disjointed and clumsy in spite of
Speaker 2: a lot of really interesting concepts that could have made
Speaker 2: for a great cap movie.
Speaker 4: Tom, I think that's just the there's what five or
Speaker 4: six credited writers, and even as many just for story.
Speaker 4: It makes me think of a writer's room where they
Speaker 4: all kept fighting for their original ideas, because this movie
Speaker 4: has five big ideas, all in search of a through line.
Speaker 4: And I just wonder if you get that many people
Speaker 4: and the writer's guild gets involved, that nobody backs down,
Speaker 4: then you just keep putting more things and then give
Speaker 4: weird I like the praise short Shrift. I'm gonna start
Speaker 4: saying that now, but short Shrift to like basic things
Speaker 4: like I know we haven't talked about the big bad yet,
Speaker 4: and we're going to get to that doctor who villain.
Speaker 4: But the idea of how like what's overlooked is his
Speaker 4: real power is how he's able to call any phone,
Speaker 4: any walkie talkie, any fight receiver at will, Like that's
Speaker 4: he just shows up places dressed like the UDA bomber.
Speaker 4: He knows he's able to be whatever wherever he needs
Speaker 4: to be and do whatever he needs to do just
Speaker 4: to keep the story moving forward. They don't feel the
Speaker 4: need to explain that. And yet this film is filled
Speaker 4: with speeches, filled with much exposition and so much speed,
Speaker 4: and it's like you're not even bothering to tell the
Speaker 4: tale that you're doing because there's so much clep.
Speaker 6: Well, that's it, And and the logic problems in this
Speaker 6: film are just I mean, there's their legion. They're all
Speaker 6: over the place, and you could what what what gave.
Speaker 4: You the most?
Speaker 2: What's what are the some of the splinters that.
Speaker 6: Well, I mean, it's really hard when nothing is explained
Speaker 6: about Red Hulk to explain to people who don't know
Speaker 6: about Red Hulk that everything he's touching turns to fire,
Speaker 6: like I mean, of course there is there is a
Speaker 6: lore in well, like when he gets smashed into the
Speaker 6: White House, the white house catches on fire. When he
Speaker 6: punches into a car, the car immediately explodes into flame.
Speaker 2: Like these things he puts his feet on the ground,
Speaker 2: he leaves flaming.
Speaker 7: Foots because the Red Hulk, the anger he gets, the
Speaker 7: hotter he gets, right, Okay, And he basically say that
Speaker 7: at all this is a point, right, So, like, if
Speaker 7: you are a Tommy watcher to this film, like and
Speaker 7: you try to examine the logic.
Speaker 5: It's just a nightmare.
Speaker 6: And that could be with all those things you bring
Speaker 6: it up, with the leader and the fact that he
Speaker 6: can do anything, call anything technology, you know, all these things,
Speaker 6: the logic problems don't exist, and I think, or I mean,
Speaker 6: they do exist.
Speaker 5: They're all over the place.
Speaker 6: And I think the problem is is that they The
Speaker 6: thing that I liked about the movie was that they
Speaker 6: were spending time in exposition tying up loose ends, which
Speaker 6: is again the thing that I wanted from eight Marvel
Speaker 6: movies before this, So I get that here. But then
Speaker 6: if you look at this as a standalone film, it's
Speaker 6: it's it doesn't make sense unfortunately. So that's that's a
Speaker 6: hard problem because so many of the things that they're
Speaker 6: feeding me as easter eggs and storylines and planting seeds
Speaker 6: for what's to come, has me literally cheering in the
Speaker 6: theater as a comic fanboy. But none of that is
Speaker 6: explained in the simple, isolated story of New World Order.
Speaker 4: And for me, there are no loose threads because everything
Speaker 4: yea Marvel is one big yarn store.
Speaker 2: One one of the loose threads that they came back to,
Speaker 2: which honestly, I was the Eternals. Oh a a an
Speaker 2: homage to the Marvel team that was the Eternals. We
Speaker 2: have Celestial Island now, and there is u There are
Speaker 2: geopolitical tensions around Celestial Island because Adamantium is inside it.
Speaker 2: I'm sorry, why are you laughing? It's right, because this
Speaker 2: is one of those things where I was so excited
Speaker 2: to hear the word because I'm a fan. I like stuff. Yeah, yes, that,
Speaker 2: And I thought you're gonna shoehorn Adamantium into the Avengers
Speaker 2: storyline by way of the Eternals. Is that how it
Speaker 2: was in the books? Where did Adamantium come from? Was
Speaker 2: it was not from the seed? Right?
Speaker 1: No?
Speaker 2: No, But I mean I was laughing out loud at
Speaker 2: this this bit. I thought, this is okay, I get it.
Speaker 2: This is the challenge of reading the news about these studios.
Speaker 2: The more you know, the more ridiculous it is. The
Speaker 2: hoops they have to jump through to write these threads together.
Speaker 6: Very true, But Celestial Island is arguably the biggest complaint
Speaker 6: that people have with the consistency of Marvel movies post Eternals.
Speaker 6: The fact that this thing exists on the planet and
Speaker 6: nobody's talking about it. You know, mar the MCU did
Speaker 6: a great job of talking about the blip post Infinity War,
Speaker 6: and then they dropped it into lots of things. Celestial
Speaker 6: Island has not been talked about, and everyone when people
Speaker 6: complain about the consistency, they're like.
Speaker 5: Isn't this a big deal? Wouldn't people be talking about this?
Speaker 6: So the fact that it's shoehorned in I actually don't
Speaker 6: have a problem with because if you look at the
Speaker 6: cut scene from The Marvels and bringing the Mutants in,
Speaker 6: you look at the end of Miss Marvel and bringing
Speaker 6: the Mutants in, these kind of things, like all of
Speaker 6: the things that they're doing to try to bring the
Speaker 6: mutants in. Now that they settled that damn lawsuit with Fox,
Speaker 6: I am a go for So, yes, go ahead and
Speaker 6: shoehorn Adamantium to the celestial and then connect it to
Speaker 6: the Japanese orient origin of Wolverine. I'm all about it, Like,
Speaker 6: if we can do that, Like, that's great, right, I mean,
Speaker 6: And so this is like again opening me up for
Speaker 6: hope in terms of the MCU that I haven't had
Speaker 6: until I saw this movie. So, yes, these things are shoehorned,
Speaker 6: Yes they are, But I don't mind it. I'm I'm
Speaker 6: all for it right now. It's it's on screen and
Speaker 6: I'm loving it.
Speaker 2: Okay, I love your boundless optimism, Mike, as another as
Speaker 2: a cap guy and another comic guy. Do you share
Speaker 2: the boundless optimism for the future.
Speaker 7: No, I wish I could. I wish I had your optimism.
Speaker 7: JJ that nothing in Phase five has made me hopeful.
Speaker 7: That sure, there's seeds here, but they haven't been good
Speaker 7: with planting and harvesting for years now.
Speaker 2: So I'm like, oh, cool, more things. I love your ruin.
Speaker 2: It's marvel. Everything is for you.
Speaker 7: It's what you imagined as a kid, and it's middling cool.
Speaker 7: Thanks thanks Disney, Thank you Entertainment.
Speaker 6: But it hasn't always been that way, right, Mike. I
Speaker 6: mean like, okay, so that's the thing. I mean, yes,
Speaker 6: they have disappointed us, and they've dropped We're the babies
Speaker 6: that they've dropped now since Endgame. But the reality is
Speaker 6: they have accomplished more in cinema than anyone else in
Speaker 6: the history of cinema.
Speaker 7: The Infinity saga was so masterful and and wow, and
Speaker 7: then they started playing with scared money even though like
Speaker 7: you did a thing that can never be done. But
Speaker 7: it's like they're the wiley coyote and they looked down
Speaker 7: after endgame and.
Speaker 2: They're like, oh, what are we doing?
Speaker 7: And then it just started like like I don't care
Speaker 7: about connections. I care about and maybe this is wrong
Speaker 7: to think about Marvel in this way. I care about
Speaker 7: a good movie. And Marvel doesn't make movies. They they
Speaker 7: they do make, sorry other Marvel fans, they do make
Speaker 7: a giant on screen rollercoaster rides or like a very
Speaker 7: long TV show, and that is a different thing. And
Speaker 7: so part maybe I keep getting burned because I keep
Speaker 7: being like, maybe this one will be a movie.
Speaker 4: No, it won't be.
Speaker 2: Yeah, what was the last one?
Speaker 5: Was the last one that you felt was a movie?
Speaker 2: Anyone? Anyone?
Speaker 6: And that's not just for Mike, I would say, I
Speaker 6: would argue for me, it was Shang Chi, Like I
Speaker 6: really liked it, felt like a good movie separate from everything.
Speaker 7: And my issues was I love Chunxi. My issues with
Speaker 7: that were the issues that I have a lot with
Speaker 7: a lot of superheroes. Is great two thirds and then
Speaker 7: sure CGI glows and thrown at each other who cares, uh,
Speaker 7: but other than Matt love And that's what I want.
Speaker 7: I want two thirds of a great thing. That's that's
Speaker 7: all I that's where my.
Speaker 2: That's where the Yeah, so we weren't we weren't excited
Speaker 2: about I'm so I note there that shang Chi is
Speaker 2: the only Phase four film that we're talking about, right,
Speaker 2: uh And it was only the second technically the first
Speaker 2: because Black Widow what was that? But then it was
Speaker 2: all downhill nobody no, nobody has love for Spider Man,
Speaker 2: No Way Home and.
Speaker 4: That movie.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I felt like that was a movie.
Speaker 4: Is that's where the whole three of them come back.
Speaker 2: That was a lot of fun gas that Wolverine. Oh,
Speaker 2: I love it, super fun.
Speaker 7: But they're doing their own things and it is like, oh,
Speaker 7: now you have to know about twenty years of movies
Speaker 7: and so like it's those were great though, the super
Speaker 7: enjoyable times, but like it still didn't feel like a
Speaker 7: movie movie. I guess I like Guardians three. I like
Speaker 7: Guardians three a lot.
Speaker 2: Okay, okay, Guardians three. So now we're into Phase five.
Speaker 2: We have some love for Phase five, and that's Guardians
Speaker 2: three and Deadpool and Wolverine. And I'll tell you high
Speaker 2: optimism for me. I'm really liking what I'm seeing from
Speaker 2: Thunderbolts and Fantastic Four. Those things have me excited, uh
Speaker 2: in a new way? Your head, I'm watching you, Hedge.
Speaker 1: Well, so this was the thing.
Speaker 3: I because I saw the preview for the Thunderbolts before
Speaker 3: this movie.
Speaker 1: I was like cool.
Speaker 3: But then I get halfway through this and Bucky shows
Speaker 3: up and he's running from Congress, So I'm like, how
Speaker 3: are we gonna That's a big leap from I'm running
Speaker 3: from Congress too. I'm in the Marvel version of the
Speaker 3: Suicide Squad doing stuff like that's a lot.
Speaker 1: Of story to happen.
Speaker 3: It's like, oh, is that the We'll do a TV
Speaker 3: series to explain what happens in between these time periods.
Speaker 3: But I agree, I like the feel of that, but
Speaker 3: it does get into an area of something that is
Speaker 3: you know, for me, becoming problematic with these Marvel movies
Speaker 3: is just the cheesy jokes and stuff where it's just
Speaker 3: because it's just tired, you know. I'm like, how many
Speaker 3: times can it's like, Oh, we're gonna say something off
Speaker 3: the cuff and it's it's a bad joke. I mean,
Speaker 3: the whole Bucky showing up and Sam's like, oh, did
Speaker 3: your speech writers write that. I'm like, yeah, okay, it
Speaker 3: got laughs from the audience, but I just feel like
Speaker 3: that is another thing that's just been overplayed.
Speaker 4: It was crickets in mind, and it's a long cricket yes,
Speaker 4: because they really they don't know how to end the joke,
Speaker 4: just keep going. And I think I got a whiff
Speaker 4: of uh letting the stars do a little bit too
Speaker 4: much improv and so that each one of them wanted
Speaker 4: to have the final line, so it just kept yes.
Speaker 7: Yes, it really shows you believe in that the emotional
Speaker 7: core of your scene or the movie when you undercut
Speaker 7: it immediately. What if what if two people who are
Speaker 7: dealing with something serious and like your new mentee is
Speaker 7: almost dead, what if you just sat What if you
Speaker 7: just sat in emotion for one second cool and ended
Speaker 7: with I love you and like that that that meant that,
Speaker 7: I like the I love you was so much more.
Speaker 2: Meaningful than me. Right.
Speaker 6: I'm so happy that they said that, Like I literally
Speaker 6: was was asking for that in my mind before they
Speaker 6: said that.
Speaker 2: It was so great.
Speaker 3: But I think the issue is who is Marvel making
Speaker 3: these movies for. I think you know, vinas Saga, We're
Speaker 3: getting to like Mike's point, these are films. I think
Speaker 3: what there seems to me they're leaning into is we're
Speaker 3: doing comic book movies and our key audience is twelve
Speaker 3: year old, so they don't want to deal with serious
Speaker 3: drama and emotion. That's boring or I'm not equipped to
Speaker 3: deal with processing those feelings now, so we undercut it
Speaker 3: with a joke because my primary audience is teenage boys,
Speaker 3: so I can do things that are you know, water
Speaker 3: down copies of things and all that, because there'll be
Speaker 3: one hundred percent on board for that. But we, as
Speaker 3: you know, grumpy old men veteran film viewers, are like,
Speaker 3: I've seen this done before and ten times better, and
Speaker 3: this is, you know, a boring trope. You know, you're
Speaker 3: doing the same thing again, and so I have to
Speaker 3: bring that mindset to this film of maybe my expectations
Speaker 3: are wrong from this and I'm putting too much on this,
Speaker 3: and can I just sit back and say, yeah, it's
Speaker 3: like picking up another issue of a comic book, and
Speaker 3: sure the story's familiar all that, but I'm.
Speaker 2: Just going to go with it.
Speaker 3: As as Mike said, a roller coaster ride, it's going
Speaker 3: to be the same ride I know what the thrills are,
Speaker 3: I know what that is, but a certain reward in
Speaker 3: that in and of itself. I it's the only way
Speaker 3: I can reconcile how to feel about this movie without
Speaker 3: being angry and disappointed.
Speaker 1: I don't want to go through life like that. So
Speaker 1: what joy can I find?
Speaker 7: It was?
Speaker 2: It was fine, it was fun. It's time for me.
Speaker 2: It's I think that let's uh, I think that let's
Speaker 2: marvel off too easily, Steve, because because as we keep
Speaker 2: going back to Winter Soldier, as we keep going back Toinity,
Speaker 2: where these characters were allowed to live in sadness and
Speaker 2: fear for a while and not have to out quit
Speaker 2: each other every single beat. Uh, they are, They're capable
Speaker 2: for making these movies. Instead, what do we get in
Speaker 2: Phase five? We get Deadpool and Wolverine, which is the
Speaker 2: ultimate dopamine hit for us. Right, we're the audience right here,
Speaker 2: podcasters the adult guy. And there is precious little substance
Speaker 2: in that movie too, right, that movie what? I loved
Speaker 2: that movie. But we got a scene in a diner
Speaker 2: where they were like snipping at each other for what
Speaker 2: forty five seconds on screen talking about their legacy. It
Speaker 2: was just dopamine. So I really enjoyed it. Does it
Speaker 2: live up to what we got in Three Days of
Speaker 2: the condor Marvel?
Speaker 4: No?
Speaker 2: I don't think it does. I think that's the thing
Speaker 2: that scares me the most. As the movies get are
Speaker 2: written in a more formulaic, more simplistic way, there is
Speaker 2: still this need to mirror, mirror ape real geopolitical tensions. Right.
Speaker 2: And because so much of this movie takes place in
Speaker 2: the White House and through and in the situation room
Speaker 2: and all the rooms with lots of video screens, I wonder,
Speaker 2: what are we thinking about how well the movie handles
Speaker 2: the stuff that we can see when we turn on
Speaker 2: the TV or you know, the latest stream. Mike is
Speaker 2: already shaking his head. I haven't finished the sentence.
Speaker 7: The writers of this, I think have heard of the
Speaker 7: show The West Wing. That is their level of knowledge
Speaker 7: and understanding of geopolitical interactions.
Speaker 6: Yeah, yeah, I mean we're literally talking about the atamatium.
Speaker 5: You stole my amaxium.
Speaker 6: It is not a complex global issue to talk about
Speaker 6: a single resource in this way.
Speaker 2: But the Japanese Prime Minister was hot. He was angry,
Speaker 2: clearly hot in a oh he was also Yeah, this
Speaker 2: is a real smokestack.
Speaker 4: It seemed like there was a version of this movie
Speaker 4: in one of the nine scripts that they melded together,
Speaker 4: where it was trying to make more aims. We do
Speaker 4: have these like misinformation, We do have a renegade in
Speaker 4: the White House. He literally turns kind of orange at
Speaker 4: some point, like there's no reason to like go and
Speaker 4: so it's and then like to bring an Israeli soldier
Speaker 4: into it, albeit a fun sized one. But like it
Speaker 4: seemed like there were all of these interesting, potentially interesting
Speaker 4: things going on and they've all been sanded down. Yeah
Speaker 4: to the fact that I don't know what this film's
Speaker 4: politics are. If they are, it's too busy talking about heroes.
Speaker 4: But like just to bring up that same thing of
Speaker 4: like to have Leader Man show up, right, I mean,
Speaker 4: as the unibomber, he has the glasses and everything. What's
Speaker 4: going on? What are these cultural touch points that lead
Speaker 4: to nothing? But it makes me crazy because I'm trying
Speaker 4: to see through it and hook them all together and
Speaker 4: instead it's just a bunch of dispirit touchstones, which doesn't help.
Speaker 3: And you know, earlier we had you know, in Marvel Earth,
Speaker 3: we had the Cecovia Accords. We had something named this
Speaker 3: they threw around, It's the treaty, the treaty, the treaty.
Speaker 3: I'm like, the treaty for what is that? The Adamantium
Speaker 3: treaty what?
Speaker 4: You know?
Speaker 3: I knew that was an important thing, but all he
Speaker 3: talked about got to get the treaty signed. I'm like,
Speaker 3: is there another treaty? It's just mcguffin treaty that I
Speaker 3: didn't know what why Ross was so invested in it.
Speaker 3: I you know, there was so much going on of
Speaker 3: who actually stole the Adamantium? Was that actually the CIA?
Speaker 4: Why not?
Speaker 3: And I realized it doesn't matter because nobody knows. It
Speaker 3: doesn't matter because it's just mcguffin to get Ross, you know,
Speaker 3: to get angry at the end. And I thought, you know,
Speaker 3: that was so disappointing because I've thought, at the beginning,
Speaker 3: I'm on the edge of my seat. Oh, here's some
Speaker 3: interesting politics. Who is this serpent society? Where where are they?
Speaker 3: What kind of force are they in this geopolitical you know,
Speaker 3: what are they trying to do? And I realized none
Speaker 3: of it matters it when it comes down to it,
Speaker 3: I don't have any reason to care, because I can't
Speaker 3: make sense of it, and I don't think any of
Speaker 3: these characters even cared about it at all.
Speaker 4: That ends up being just a bunch of disparate things
Speaker 4: held together by probability. If you probability enough, it's like, yes, well,
Speaker 4: I guess if you have a character that can see
Speaker 4: the future and take care of every communication device in
Speaker 4: the world, yeah, you can get stuff done.
Speaker 6: What I would argue is that it's not held together
Speaker 6: by probability. It's held together by Marvel easterings or Marvel
Speaker 6: scenes for the future. So this is again the point
Speaker 6: that I've been making the entire time about this movie.
Speaker 6: It is not a great movie, but it is a
Speaker 6: solid Marvel movie because all they're doing I don't think
Speaker 6: they do make a connection to actual geopolitics. I think
Speaker 6: they are using it, as Steve says a mcguffin here,
Speaker 6: to get to the points of the story they want
Speaker 6: to talk to, which are adamant to Celestial Island, you know,
Speaker 6: rebuild the Avengers, like these are the things that this
Speaker 6: is all they're caring about in this movie. It is
Speaker 6: a transition film to get to the next of what's
Speaker 6: happening and I would argue the thing about the Thunderbolts.
Speaker 6: I had the exact same thought you did, Steve, which
Speaker 6: is like, how is he going to go from Congress
Speaker 6: to the Thunderbolts? But that makes a fantastic complicating incident
Speaker 6: for that next movie.
Speaker 5: If we get there. So I'm all about that.
Speaker 6: And I love the cast of Thunderbolts so much that
Speaker 6: I find myself like weeping with joy in the trailer
Speaker 6: just to see Florence Pugh and David Harbor, like just
Speaker 6: to see these people on screen again.
Speaker 5: So I'm just really happy that that's where we're going next.
Speaker 2: The direction the director was Julius ohna Nigerian born director
Speaker 2: who is has done some interesting things. I think you
Speaker 2: did Loose, didn't you, guys?
Speaker 1: Rewind Yes, we did.
Speaker 3: It was a very very character driven story, so I
Speaker 3: thought that's what he would bring to this. And I
Speaker 3: see he's got you know, writing credit on this, and like,
Speaker 3: oh he complex story, characters tackling big issues and Nope,
Speaker 3: not here.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean this is another one at Cloverfield paradox
Speaker 2: Is on the list. He did that for Netflix, I guess,
Speaker 2: and this is another one where I I think he's
Speaker 2: clearly a competent and talented director. And I wonder if
Speaker 2: this story was too big. It just becomes too much
Speaker 2: thoughts on direction.
Speaker 7: This isn't Julius. Is that that this isn't on Julius.
Speaker 7: This is the Marvel trend is like, Oh, this like
Speaker 7: hot indie director. Let's bring them in, but they can't
Speaker 7: direct the CGI. We have our own in house guys
Speaker 7: who will do that. Which some of my favorite part
Speaker 7: was the two the falcon cap flying and fighting. I
Speaker 7: was like, oh, oh that's fun, that's cool. Uh so
Speaker 7: you're you're undercutting everything these cool indie directors have to
Speaker 7: bring and they that they are younger, so and they're
Speaker 7: going up against this behemoth that is Marvel Studios. So
Speaker 7: maybe they do need like a favro, like somebody's been
Speaker 7: around a little longer who can work with CGI and
Speaker 7: somebody who can like throw their weight around a little
Speaker 7: harder than somebody younger in their career. Which is probably
Speaker 7: why Marvel's going after this, because they they're like, oh,
Speaker 7: there's a paycheck and then you get to make the
Speaker 7: thing you actually care about.
Speaker 2: Yeah, but that's a utility director like fungible.
Speaker 7: Yeah, but that doesn't for an interesting that then we're
Speaker 7: undercutting Julius and anything he would bring to it is
Speaker 7: going away, and then we're undercutting the big, fun blockbusters
Speaker 7: thing that we want to see because it's their odd
Speaker 7: odds with direction.
Speaker 4: This sort of gets into direction and cinematography and editing
Speaker 4: all in one. I didn't think the film looked very good.
Speaker 4: I think maybe they were trying to go for that
Speaker 4: sort of cold war ish, gritty kind of look, but
Speaker 4: instead it just looked like foggy, like it looked really
Speaker 4: grainy and gross. It was, but not in the beginning
Speaker 4: that opening scene in Mexico, which was my favorite part,
Speaker 4: and the film never fully leapt up to that, like
Speaker 4: when he landed and he goes wait for it and
Speaker 4: then the what it called the cloud comes back.
Speaker 2: I was like, return to farm.
Speaker 4: I think I screamed, returned to farm, but that I was.
Speaker 2: I was very much corrected.
Speaker 4: But it just looked really sludgy. And then so that's
Speaker 4: just a choice of like what kind of film stock
Speaker 4: or probably what kind of digital effect you put on
Speaker 4: it later I didn't care for. And also some of
Speaker 4: the action was great, a lot of it you lost
Speaker 4: your center of where things were and who was where
Speaker 4: and then some of it the editing was so sloppy
Speaker 4: in some of the fights. The only thing I can
Speaker 4: think of he didn't get the shot. There wasn't enough
Speaker 4: to cut to because things were like almost as bad
Speaker 4: as like coming in from the left and then reappearing
Speaker 4: on the right, like things were just kicks were appearing
Speaker 4: halfway through, And that just tells me, I mean, you editors,
Speaker 4: there were two different editors on it. If you just
Speaker 4: don't have the footage you have to get this guy
Speaker 4: over to the other side of the room, so you
Speaker 4: just sort of fudge it. So that makes me worried
Speaker 4: about the direction for that too, that I didn't feel
Speaker 4: he had a handle except for the opening sequence on
Speaker 4: all of the action, which seems like that should be
Speaker 4: your start.
Speaker 6: Yeah, I think Steve makes a really good point in
Speaker 6: that Loose sort of the beauty of Loose was its
Speaker 6: character and like focusing on the characters. And if you
Speaker 6: boil this movie down and get some of those character scenes,
Speaker 6: you know, other than the quips, like we get some
Speaker 6: of that good stuff when we're there, but that's not
Speaker 6: that is not what a Marvel movie is. So you
Speaker 6: run into all of those other things of effects and
Speaker 6: fights and stuff, and that's not really what this director
Speaker 6: is all about.
Speaker 5: Unfortunately, I think ye.
Speaker 2: This movie at one point was on track to be
Speaker 2: released ahead of Deadpool and Wolverine. What suffered massive, massive
Speaker 2: rescheduling due to rewrites and reshoots.
Speaker 4: Interesting, that's you know what kind of do you know
Speaker 4: what kind of stuff was added?
Speaker 2: Jan Carlo Esposito's character was not in the original shoot
Speaker 2: or the junk yard fight. Those were some of the
Speaker 2: best parts, and so those came away later. Yeah, yeah, I.
Speaker 4: Bet that was a reaction to the incredibly underwhelming Tim
Speaker 4: Blake Nelson, who I love, but he is an under
Speaker 4: He underplays an under written character that looks bad.
Speaker 2: Like instead two movies cartoon movie.
Speaker 4: And I just like whenever G and Carlo was knocked out,
Speaker 4: I was like, no, the movie I cared about. I
Speaker 4: was so much more interested in him.
Speaker 2: Oh wow, which is why he's when he's gone, he's
Speaker 2: really gone.
Speaker 4: You feel it an enormous thing to add to the movie.
Speaker 2: Huge, that's a lot.
Speaker 7: Of movie that they and this in theory, maybe it's Thunderbolts,
Speaker 7: but this should be the end of the They've said
Speaker 7: this is the end of the era of where we
Speaker 7: start filming before we have a finished script.
Speaker 2: We'll see, Marvel, We'll see. But that's what they've said.
Speaker 2: What'd you say, it's the monkeys part? Just yeah, uh
Speaker 2: so that that's that's non trivial complications to make this
Speaker 2: movie and you know part and partial two, having a
Speaker 2: lot of writers, a lot of underwhelming content ultimately, and
Speaker 2: yet that first part of the movie, I think when
Speaker 2: they're in like the boxing ring, it looks the best,
Speaker 2: it feels the best. Like the early part of the movie,
Speaker 2: I think they do a solid job building this character
Speaker 2: and building this character who is dealing with the fact
Speaker 2: that he never took the serum. I think there is
Speaker 2: an interesting angle here that we yeaut We did kind
Speaker 2: of have that played out in you know, the the series,
Speaker 2: and yet I thought this one, I thought they seeded
Speaker 2: it well to show why Sam Wilson is different than
Speaker 2: Steve Rogers and we have to hear that. We have
Speaker 2: to see it, they have to make that case. I
Speaker 2: feel let down by the fact that they only said
Speaker 2: I want you to help me rebuild the Avengers and
Speaker 2: didn't give us the scene like we got at the
Speaker 2: end of was it of Iron Man where they walk through.
Speaker 5: And that's what I did.
Speaker 2: The cut scene to me, Yeah, yes, don't say anything
Speaker 2: about the cut scene. We're talking about the scene at
Speaker 2: the end in our post credits post credits chat. That's right,
Speaker 2: we have the credits post credits chat.
Speaker 6: But your point is well taken, and that that is
Speaker 6: again I'll just sort of point back to those those
Speaker 6: sort of outline points that I mentioned in terms of
Speaker 6: the marveling.
Speaker 5: Of this movie.
Speaker 6: That's one of the interesting things. So do something with
Speaker 6: that because that's the thing that people are going to
Speaker 6: care about and.
Speaker 2: Why we show up exactly just the three I don't know.
Speaker 2: I would ask you what you you feel like you're
Speaker 2: the signature action scene is of the movie. We have
Speaker 2: the Celestial Island fight. Mike already brought that up. We
Speaker 2: have the white House fight, the destruction of the White House.
Speaker 2: A number of these things were teased in the you know,
Speaker 2: in the in the tea, in the trailer. We have
Speaker 2: the Red Hulk fight at the end in Cherry Tree Lane.
Speaker 2: Am I missing a big sequence?
Speaker 7: Oh well not in the Mexico Mexico, and then the
Speaker 7: second Esposito Mackie fight and the junk Yard.
Speaker 2: So okay, all right, so of those, how do you
Speaker 2: feel those that fight, in particular much more grounded fight
Speaker 2: a lot of practical stuff. You know, it's it's it's
Speaker 2: good to punch. And because this segment is normally titled
Speaker 2: fake Things on fake Things, we're just watching effectively an
Speaker 2: animated movie. At some point in some of these sequences,
Speaker 2: how do you feel they looked? This is the controversy
Speaker 2: of Marvel pushes. It's, you know, cg artists too hard,
Speaker 2: too fast, to do too much, and they don't know
Speaker 2: what they're making before the movie, before they know what
Speaker 2: the movie is, and all kinds of complaints. How did
Speaker 2: this look to you?
Speaker 4: Some of the it was weird, some of the CGI
Speaker 4: looked very poor to me, and some of it looked outstanding.
Speaker 4: I think I'm not smart enough to know what you
Speaker 4: need to do. I know that you shouldn't put robots
Speaker 4: in the sunlight. That there's a reason that when you
Speaker 4: can do that, that's a credible because things immediately look
Speaker 4: fake in the sunlight. But there was a lot of
Speaker 4: stuff like the flying I thought was really strong. I
Speaker 4: thought Red Hulk for I kept kind of giggling about
Speaker 4: Red Hulk, but he looked pretty good for what he is.
Speaker 4: I thought, I'm not always but a lot of the
Speaker 4: stuff looked really good, but then other times things looked bad.
Speaker 4: And there was also you could tell that so much
Speaker 4: of this movie, or a lot of this movie was
Speaker 4: made in post. There were even some like even some
Speaker 4: of the things when he's talking up at Red Hulk
Speaker 4: trying to talk him down, is clearly a green screen,
Speaker 4: and it's kind of like, what are we doing here?
Speaker 4: You can make me believe that that car was cut
Speaker 4: in half by a magical wing and you can't do
Speaker 4: this over the shoulders shot and one of those brings
Speaker 4: me out of it.
Speaker 6: So even with the car, I mean, they only gave
Speaker 6: us half the car, Like, there's a way to shoot
Speaker 6: that differently to make that look much cooler. When I
Speaker 6: saw that that was gonna happen in the trailer, I
Speaker 6: was all excited about it, and it was like I
Speaker 6: got half of what I wanted to see from that.
Speaker 6: Your first question, Pete, I want to kind of answer,
Speaker 6: which is what is the signature fight? I think, fortunately
Speaker 6: or unfortunately, it has to be the cherry blossom fight
Speaker 6: at the end, just because that's going to be sort
Speaker 6: of the most memorable piece with the Red Hulk, but
Speaker 6: I don't think it's the best by any means, and
Speaker 6: I agree with Tommy. I don't think it looks good
Speaker 6: particularly good either. I would maybe argue that either the
Speaker 6: junk Yard fight or the flying scenes at Celestial Island
Speaker 6: are the best looking, but I don't know that they're
Speaker 6: incredibly memorable unfortunately.
Speaker 2: I think the Mexico City fight at the beginning is
Speaker 2: a great way to open it, and it works for me.
Speaker 2: That's a scene I'm going to.
Speaker 7: Choreography matters, right, yeah, yeah, And that's the more CG
Speaker 7: you get the last year thinking about that. Where you
Speaker 7: should I think there should still be like a normal
Speaker 7: fight master who choreographs the big CGI fights because the
Speaker 7: reason Mexico rules is because they're doing hand to hand.
Speaker 7: But then he's whipping his wings out to use those
Speaker 7: as extual weapons, but the wings disappear, so somebody thought
Speaker 7: it's an inventive.
Speaker 2: It's neat.
Speaker 7: It's not just the cherry h what is cherry bossom lane?
Speaker 7: That fight is just like a kid with action figures.
Speaker 2: There's like again, yeah, well, and by the same token,
Speaker 2: the fight at Celestial Island. You know, I could have
Speaker 2: given you a hundred bucks on somebody saying you sunk
Speaker 2: my battleship, Like it looked like a fake like board
Speaker 2: game in many sequences, even though the actual in air
Speaker 2: stuff I thought was really cool. Like I like the idea.
Speaker 2: I love the idea now that there are two heroes
Speaker 2: with mechanical wings that fly, I like that a lot.
Speaker 2: I need more winged things.
Speaker 4: I like that. Except when they decided to go on
Speaker 4: a road trip. I didn't realize they just like fly fly.
Speaker 4: I was like, wait, weren't they the jeep, Like you're.
Speaker 2: Going on a secret message and neither of us bring
Speaker 2: our equipment at all?
Speaker 5: Right, very strange.
Speaker 6: I had one question from the trailer, because you know
Speaker 6: that they I mean, they hid the fact that Tim
Speaker 6: Blake Nelson and The Leader were going to be in
Speaker 6: there weren't in any trailers of that. And I wanted
Speaker 6: to suggest that would the movie have made less money
Speaker 6: or would there be less interest in the movie if
Speaker 6: they had actually hid Red Hulk and promoed The Leader instead,
Speaker 6: because I think I actually think the response would have
Speaker 6: been greater if they had done that. You don't really
Speaker 6: need to see Red Hulk in the trailers to get
Speaker 6: people to this movie. But I think there's an argument
Speaker 6: to be made either way. But I think I think
Speaker 6: it would have been such a better reveal the whole
Speaker 6: story if we did not know Red Hulk was going
Speaker 6: to be in this movie and then oh, all of
Speaker 6: a sudden, unless except for all of those people who
Speaker 6: know it from the comics, you know this kind of thing.
Speaker 6: I think that would have been much greater and had
Speaker 6: a much greater impact if we did it that way.
Speaker 4: I completely agree. I think there's just such a energy
Speaker 4: and everything suck from Tim Blake Nelson, who again I
Speaker 4: love that that character and the way he looked is
Speaker 4: just ridiculous and he's just talking.
Speaker 2: He did answer the question by bringing him back why
Speaker 2: they haven't used him in seventeen years, right right, like
Speaker 2: this time will be answered the question for me about
Speaker 2: why we didn't get a more contemporaneous play on the
Speaker 2: heater after the incredible Hulk, Right, Mike.
Speaker 7: I would say the way they bring him back also
Speaker 7: like creates a huge flaw in the film. It is interesting,
Speaker 7: especially in this day and age, just say, what if
Speaker 7: you can't trust your president unless you want to escape
Speaker 7: that thought? But and I think I'm getting older and
Speaker 7: grouch here because more and more I'm agreeing with villains
Speaker 7: and things I'm reading and watching. Because Tim Blake Nelson
Speaker 7: was tortured and lied to for seventeen years. What were
Speaker 7: his crimes from The Incredible Hulk? He had an accident,
Speaker 7: he was there, he was wrong time, wrong place, had
Speaker 7: an accident, but the a global leader used him for
Speaker 7: his benefit to but he's like, I don't want to
Speaker 7: be remembered as the warmonger. It's like, no, you're more
Speaker 7: like warmonger plus like grab type stuff, like you're you're
Speaker 7: even more disgusting than we actually thought you were in
Speaker 7: the movie doesn't really deal with any of that.
Speaker 2: Instead, Mackie at the end is like, hey man, your
Speaker 2: daughter could still love you. Yeah, that is a really
Speaker 2: really good point. Uh, And I I just don't. I mean,
Speaker 2: we'll we'll talk about the post credit later. But I'm
Speaker 2: I'm I'm very curious if they're gonna if we're gonna
Speaker 2: see Tim Blake Nelson again after this movie.
Speaker 6: I mean, well, I don't want to say that, like
Speaker 6: I don't like him, because again I really like him,
Speaker 6: but he was really like him that the character was underutilized.
Speaker 6: I mean, it was really just a vehicle to Yeah.
Speaker 6: So yeah, I hope they don't use him again in
Speaker 6: that way. I guess that's what I'm saying.
Speaker 2: Fun to see Carl Lumley black back half of the
Speaker 2: TV show. I think he's fantastic. He did great. We've
Speaker 2: talked about gen Carlos Bosito, wonderful. Let's talk just briefly
Speaker 2: about Shira has as our new a new Widow. I
Speaker 2: don't have any comic background on the character that she
Speaker 2: is playing. What do we need to know?
Speaker 7: It's Sabra is like a e tier mutant who came
Speaker 7: from Masad. So I think both for real world ramifications
Speaker 7: and for ease of how many different secret organizations there
Speaker 7: are in the SCU. They're like, she's just a widow,
Speaker 7: like and they'd be simple of so why use her
Speaker 7: at all? Like there's those little things that like that's
Speaker 7: for like the super comic nerds. I did not know
Speaker 7: this character, like this is definitely me looking stuff up. Uh,
Speaker 7: so you get to and maybe maybe this actress can
Speaker 7: really act. I saw no evidence of that.
Speaker 5: In this film.
Speaker 2: I struggled with it because I never really found her
Speaker 2: physically believable in the way that I do our other
Speaker 2: widows in the universe. Uh, and I think I think
Speaker 2: she's She's done a lot of good work, and she's
Speaker 2: a talented performer. I wonder if she was miscast for
Speaker 2: this role, and maybe they were going for look at
Speaker 2: what we can do with someone at this diminutive physical frame.
Speaker 2: And I just never let myself go that I thought
Speaker 2: they were beating up at someone who they shouldn't be
Speaker 2: beating up. I just felt sorry for her all the time.
Speaker 5: I was never felt that she was a threat at all.
Speaker 4: Yeah.
Speaker 2: I never felt like she was a threat, not in
Speaker 2: the way Scarlett Johansson or or in character wise.
Speaker 7: It was muddy because we had I think her Sasha
Speaker 7: Sasha Rockmore, who plays Taylor, who is like Sam's in Like,
Speaker 7: so we have these two female security agents to like
Speaker 7: if we're if things are money streamline, but one character
Speaker 7: is fine.
Speaker 2: I don't know why you need both of them to exist.
Speaker 5: Yeah, yeah, good point.
Speaker 4: The score.
Speaker 2: Well, as we're kind of getting toward the end, I
Speaker 2: want to shout out the score. Laura Cartman did the score? Score? Uh,
Speaker 2: the score is not full of to for me anyway.
Speaker 2: Any real memorable themes that are new and novel for
Speaker 2: this character. I loved that we got the Mister Blue
Speaker 2: theme from the Incredible Hulk score for The Leader. It
Speaker 2: snuck in there, and I thought that was a really
Speaker 2: nice musical homage to that other movie.
Speaker 4: I thought it was soupy is the best word like
Speaker 4: it was a lot of times it's like it was
Speaker 4: just left on like that scene but they forgot to
Speaker 4: change the music cue and it just sort of goes
Speaker 4: halfway into the next scene. A lot of times it
Speaker 4: was not it didn't seem related to what was going on, unfortunately,
Speaker 4: but it was. It was quiet but so full. There
Speaker 4: was like every instrument was playing, but it's so low
Speaker 4: in the mix that it's just like, who is this for?
Speaker 4: It's like leaving your TV on your dog?
Speaker 7: And if if we're gonna harken back to older mc
Speaker 7: U and reference like songs, not score but in Winter Soldier,
Speaker 7: isn't it Sam recommends, I think it's Sugarman like Phil,
Speaker 7: fill this with seventies.
Speaker 2: Funk, then make this cool with that guy.
Speaker 7: Yea similar to Guard is a Galaxy, but a very
Speaker 7: different vibe. And because we've shown in the past that
Speaker 7: Sam is a guy who's into music and older music,
Speaker 7: so fill.
Speaker 5: This with that, make it unique, give it, make it
Speaker 5: his movie. That would be a great idea.
Speaker 3: That we do.
Speaker 2: Get a Kendrick Hendrick song over the closing credits, we
Speaker 2: get I I'm absolutely with you, this is you know,
Speaker 2: this is a generic action score, and I missed having
Speaker 2: strong character themes in the score. That was problematic. Cinematography Kramer,
Speaker 2: Morgan Thal Kramer, Morgan tho, we're gonna be talking about
Speaker 2: more on Marvel Movie Minute next season. Kramer did for
Speaker 2: the Dark World. That's right, We're doing for the Dark
Speaker 2: World in Marvel Movie Minute, but also Creed three, the
Speaker 2: Creed movies and Chef Favreau's Chef, which I love very
Speaker 2: very much and so like you know, Steve's word. This
Speaker 2: is a strong competent cinematographer and my hunches. A lot
Speaker 2: of the work got muddied in as the movie was
Speaker 2: created in the edit.
Speaker 6: How did you like that wrap around after the Mexico
Speaker 6: fight of the two guys having a conversation for absolutely
Speaker 6: no person a purpose at all. I mean, normally when
Speaker 6: I talk camera, I like to talk about my favorite
Speaker 6: shot of the film, but this was so glaringly like,
Speaker 6: let's just spin around two guys that are talking to
Speaker 6: each other like, oh that I mean, but why though?
Speaker 6: I mean, that's all I was saying every time a
Speaker 6: shot came up.
Speaker 4: In this movie. I think they ran out of time
Speaker 4: in the schedule because they had to shoot every scene
Speaker 4: with talking both at the actors and then from behind
Speaker 4: them so they could switch out all the words. Right,
Speaker 4: there was a lot of behind the back talking when
Speaker 4: the sound town's just a little bit different.
Speaker 5: Oh well, yeah, yeah, that was rough.
Speaker 2: I was feeling like I was channeling your adr rage, tom.
Speaker 3: It felt a lot of times it felt like it
Speaker 3: was shot like a TV show. I don't know, just
Speaker 3: like there was not a lot of time to set
Speaker 3: up stuff or take time to think about. Again, to
Speaker 3: Tommy's point about the editing, if you're gonna just you
Speaker 3: guys fight, I'm gonna put cameras in a couple of places.
Speaker 3: We'll figure it out an editing instead of working with
Speaker 3: the choreographer, How do I tell the story of the fight.
Speaker 1: And I don't know whose fault that is.
Speaker 3: If that's the director should be learning that language, if
Speaker 3: it's the cinematographer of knowing how to shoot this to
Speaker 3: give the editor that footage, But it. Yeah, just felt
Speaker 3: like so many scenes were just like quick and dirty.
Speaker 3: We got to shoot this, we got to move this
Speaker 3: thing along very quickly. We're not taking time to think
Speaker 3: about the visual language of what that's going to communicate.
Speaker 3: Because I also I felt like there was so much
Speaker 3: telling not showing in this movie. We just got information.
Speaker 3: We're going to show you this. There's so much talking.
Speaker 3: We just got to get this, you know, story moved
Speaker 3: along for whatever reason.
Speaker 6: We talked a lot about that concept on Mandy's show
Speaker 6: on The Make Me a Nerd Show when we talked
Speaker 6: about the MCU, that in the MCU as a whole,
Speaker 6: with all of their properties, it gets kind of muddy
Speaker 6: the TV style versus the movie style, because we get
Speaker 6: some TV series on Disney Plus that feel very cinematic
Speaker 6: and have a very high level of CGI attention in
Speaker 6: these kind of things, and then it devolves at times
Speaker 6: in weird places. In certain films and in certain series,
Speaker 6: it's really scattered in terms of the quality of what
Speaker 6: is cinematic and what is TV related. So I agree
Speaker 6: with you, I think this one definitely fill more on
Speaker 6: the TV side, and that's not ideal. When we're talking
Speaker 6: about the film.
Speaker 2: Which is so interesting when you look at something like
Speaker 2: She Hulk, which is a show that whose principal character
Speaker 2: spends most of their time in CGI mode and for
Speaker 2: the most part looked great. Right that it got lost
Speaker 2: in that property, it was wonderful.
Speaker 5: It's just interesting.
Speaker 2: I love to hear it.
Speaker 5: Yeah, yeah, we're on that side.
Speaker 2: I'm going to go away and cue some music and
Speaker 2: immediately come back reading a new bit in a slightly
Speaker 2: more gravelly voice. Cue the music. In a world divided
Speaker 2: by opinions, where movie lovers seek refuge from the chaos
Speaker 2: of bad takes and endless reboots, one community stands as
Speaker 2: a beacon of hope, the True Story FM Discord. It's
Speaker 2: a gathering place for those who believe in the power
Speaker 2: of film, where conversations soar higher than a leaping octagenarian
Speaker 2: Harrison Ford. And the best part, you can join for free.
Speaker 2: Just head to the True Story dot fm slash discord
Speaker 2: login page and clean your place among fellow cinephiles. And
Speaker 2: for those who want to go beyond those who can
Speaker 2: hear the call to do more, there is another path.
Speaker 2: Become a supporting member of the Next Reel's family of
Speaker 2: film podcasts at true story dot fm slash join as
Speaker 2: a member, you'll unlock exclusive Discord channels, members only, live streams,
Speaker 2: early access to extended episodes in your very own podcast feed. Today,
Speaker 2: for example, we're taking apart the post credits scene of
Speaker 2: this movie in a post credit post credit conversation.
Speaker 5: The choice is your soldier.
Speaker 2: Will you stand on the sidelines or will you step
Speaker 2: up and be a part of something bigger? The next
Speaker 2: real needs heroes like you.
Speaker 5: Who was that guy?
Speaker 4: Wow o? My is that the Japanese?
Speaker 7: Who?
Speaker 2: Now is a point. Now that we have have churned
Speaker 2: the film through our conversational meat grinder, we have to
Speaker 2: rate it and we do that over on letterbox. You
Speaker 2: can find true story FM's HQ page at letterbox dot com.
Speaker 2: Slash the next reel and this is this is where
Speaker 2: we make our case for the movie and where it
Speaker 2: stands in our ranking. Five stars and you can add
Speaker 2: a heart half stars count JJ I.
Speaker 6: Gave it three stars just because I was entertained. I
Speaker 6: definitely wouldn't fight for the quality of this film or
Speaker 6: try to argue that it's logical or special. But in
Speaker 6: a world of Marvel movies that have been generally disappointing,
Speaker 6: for me post endgame. I had fun with this and
Speaker 6: it made me excited for the future. So I gave
Speaker 6: it three stars out of five and a heart and
Speaker 6: a heart oh thank you? Yes, Okay, I liked it.
Speaker 3: Kindred Spirits all right, Steve, I you know, well, I
Speaker 3: gave this three stars, and because I did enjoy it,
Speaker 3: and as I said, if if I become a twelve
Speaker 3: year old boy, I think there's a lot to enjoy.
Speaker 3: I have to take aside every other movie I've seen,
Speaker 3: so I can't say, oh, that witty rep oartee between
Speaker 3: Falcon and you know, Bucky, you know, and I want
Speaker 3: to hold that up against George Cleaning Brad Pitt and
Speaker 3: Ocean's Eleven.
Speaker 1: You know, Oh, do you think I rushed it? You
Speaker 1: know type of thing.
Speaker 2: I it's there in my head.
Speaker 3: I have to take that aside and say, oh, okay,
Speaker 3: twelve year old that hasn't seen Ocean's Eleven doesn't know
Speaker 3: this doesn't have that as a comparison.
Speaker 1: Okay, three stars.
Speaker 3: I wish I could give it half a heart because
Speaker 3: I feel like this movie doesn't put its heart into it,
Speaker 3: so I'm not giving to the heart. I'm surprised to
Speaker 3: say that, but I just felt this was empty and
Speaker 3: I don't think the movie cared about itself enough.
Speaker 2: So three stars, no heart. Okay, Mike, what do you think?
Speaker 7: I so badly wanted this to succeed, and the whole
Speaker 7: time I was like, I could be watching Nickel Boys
Speaker 7: right now, I could be watching The Brutalist, Like real
Speaker 7: films came out and I'm in the middle of the
Speaker 7: day alone watching this. I think, uh, I had issues
Speaker 7: with it, but I think Falcon Wino Soldier the TV show,
Speaker 7: handled all of this so much better and is a
Speaker 7: more interesting to watch and had bigger capital T thoughts
Speaker 7: behind it and more care. Like you said, Steve that
Speaker 7: this felt like, well we got to do it, and
Speaker 7: JJ like you've been saying, like we gotta tie things together.
Speaker 7: Who cares if it's a movie. So I'm gonna give
Speaker 7: two stars.
Speaker 2: Ooh nice? Okay, where do you stand on the heart? None?
Speaker 2: No heart from me? If they give heart, I'd give heart.
Speaker 4: That's good.
Speaker 5: That's a good measure right there.
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's good, Thomas.
Speaker 4: I'll sort of come right in the middle. I'm going
Speaker 4: to say two point five stars. It doesn't work for me.
Speaker 4: There were some great sequences I'm not going to give
Speaker 4: it a heart, but I am going to send the
Speaker 4: heart to the director, who now after learning that the
Speaker 4: entire g and Carlo Esperanza, I don't know his name
Speaker 4: by apology exposito was added later. I feel terrible for him.
Speaker 4: I can't imagine what a rough movie this was, and
Speaker 4: it has Harrison form legendarily difficult to work with, and
Speaker 4: so this just seems like it was probably to go
Speaker 4: from the Cloverfield Paradox which I saw, to this. I
Speaker 4: bet it was a living nightmare. So I give instead
Speaker 4: of the movie. I do not blame him, I blame
Speaker 4: the machine.
Speaker 2: Have you seen any of Harrison Ford's pressers on this movie? No,
Speaker 2: they thought anybody.
Speaker 4: At one point he was like, I didn't even try
Speaker 4: to act to this one pretty much.
Speaker 2: They did say, what did you think the first time
Speaker 2: you saw you know, your face on Red Hulk that
Speaker 2: he said, it's ridiculous, and then it stops talking, which is, yeah,
Speaker 2: I'm I am. Actually I think I am buoyed by
Speaker 2: JJ's effortless optimism, and I'm right there with him. I'm
Speaker 2: actually giving it a heart and three stars, which is
Speaker 2: more than this movie deserves. And I need you to know.
Speaker 2: I know that I do too, but I want I
Speaker 2: want more of this Captain America. I want Anthony Mackie
Speaker 2: to become an anchor in that whatever comes next. I
Speaker 2: like him, I like his work. I like the character
Speaker 2: a lot. It baffles me having a Captain America with
Speaker 2: the shield and wings, Like, isn't that a little bit
Speaker 2: of a hat on a hat? And we're all okay
Speaker 2: with it, but it's still fun, Like it's really really fun,
Speaker 2: and I want to see it when he can really
Speaker 2: take some material and work with it, because he's been
Speaker 2: in movies where he's been allowed to do that, and
Speaker 2: they were other Captain America movies. So let's have more
Speaker 2: of that. And so I'm going to this is I'm
Speaker 2: investing in the future with this three stars and a heart.
Speaker 2: That's it. This is an investment. It's like bitcoin, but
Speaker 2: more valuable and real. Right, So that's where we are.
Speaker 2: Thank you guys for hanging out and talking about this movie.
Speaker 2: Thank you everybody for hangout listening. Thank you Mike for
Speaker 2: joining us first time. I hope, I hope we haven't
Speaker 2: sullied our relationship. I hope you'll come back.
Speaker 7: I don't have the movie against you guys. Thank you,
Speaker 7: happy to be here, so much fun, Thank you so
Speaker 7: much love talking to these even movies.
Speaker 5: I didn't love watching there you excellent.
Speaker 2: I think, well we appreciated here movies.
Speaker 3: I didn't love watching for the next film the podcast movies.
Speaker 4: I didn't love watching the episode one the Fightest Hours
Speaker 4: like she did.
Speaker 2: Steeve, JJ, Tommy, Mike, Thank you all, and thank you
Speaker 2: dear listener for your time and attention. Whether you agreed
Speaker 2: or disagree, or just came here to shout at your phones,
Speaker 2: we appreciate you. If you had fun, don't forget to
Speaker 2: join the conversation on the discord channel true Story dot FM,
Speaker 2: slash Discord and you know we're in the last couple
Speaker 2: of minutes. We haven't gone wear true Story FM Slash
Speaker 2: join to become a member and support this show and
Speaker 2: all of the shows in the next real family of
Speaker 2: film podcasts. Whatever you do now, watch more movies, don't
Speaker 2: let them get you angry, and remember just because it
Speaker 2: has a post credit scene doesn't mean it's any good meeting.
Speaker 5: How jer