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Speaker 1: Hey y'all, welcome back to Maltain Murders. I'm Heather, I'm Dylan.
Speaker 2: Hello Dylan.
Speaker 1: Hello, how are you today? I am doing terrific?
Speaker 2: You are? Oh well, that is wonderful, Dylan, I am excited.
Speaker 2: Did we have Larry Flint Part two to get into today?
Speaker 1: Cannot wait.
Speaker 2: We're a little delayed as usual, but before we get started,
Speaker 2: wanted to give a big shout out to our newest patrons,
Speaker 2: Holly and Lauren. What shout out to Holly and Lauren.
Speaker 2: They are responsible for everything that it's said today.
Speaker 1: Thank you so much for your support over at the patreoon.
Speaker 2: Uh so you're sponsoring Dylan's mouth right now.
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, you're holding my mouth up. Oh goodness, you're
Speaker 1: supporting this mouth.
Speaker 2: If you guys are looking for some wonderful podcasts, check
Speaker 2: out It's summer. Maybe you're taking a road trip, flying somewhere.
Speaker 2: You need something to listen to before your summer vacation,
Speaker 2: or while you're on summer.
Speaker 1: Vacation, or just to drown the kids out.
Speaker 2: Yes, that's what I do, Dylan. I go to the
Speaker 2: swimming pool. I pop in my waterproof earbuds that you
Speaker 2: bought me. Wonderful gift, by the way, Oh, one of
Speaker 2: the best gifts you've ever given me. I get into
Speaker 2: the pool, I'm floating, I'm relaxing, soaking it up, soaking
Speaker 2: up the rays, and I'm tuning out all the screaming
Speaker 2: kids that are jumping in around me.
Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah, you just find a good podcast like Mountain Murders.
Speaker 2: I do. I listen to some of the dark Cast
Speaker 2: Network podcasts stilling We've got the Final Trace. I highly
Speaker 2: recommend Rainbow Crimes, True Crimes of the LGBTQ podcast. CJ
Speaker 2: does an excellent job murdering scripted Stop who does that?
Speaker 2: With Jackie and Jenna.
Speaker 1: That's a good one.
Speaker 2: Love and Murder Fuck that a true crime podcast Conspiring
Speaker 2: to Argue, which is also an interesting podcast. You know,
Speaker 2: we love to state our opinions. I like to listen
Speaker 2: to other podcasters with strong opinions, going back and forth
Speaker 2: a bit debating. It's always fun.
Speaker 1: There's nothing like a good spirited debate.
Speaker 2: Psychology of the Strange is another excellent podcast if you
Speaker 2: were into hearing stories about folklore, which I love some
Speaker 2: good folklore stories. Of course, you can't be Appalachian and
Speaker 2: not love some good folk tales, right. I'm also discussing
Speaker 2: fear some of the dark psychology. We get into a
Speaker 2: little bit of that here, but she definitely covers more
Speaker 2: of that and then shout out to the family Plot podcast.
Speaker 2: Nice Welcome home, so many check out darkcastnetwork dot com
Speaker 2: to find out more about these awesome indie podcasts doing.
Speaker 1: Yeah, it really is a great place to find your
Speaker 1: little indie pods, you know, the little pods that could
Speaker 1: and you know they're done with a love and passion
Speaker 1: more than anything.
Speaker 2: Some of these indie pods are doing great things, so
Speaker 2: you don't want to miss out. You want to make
Speaker 2: sure you check out some of those again for your
Speaker 2: listening content this summer, so many summer hours for podcasts.
Speaker 1: It's true. I love it.
Speaker 2: Oh my god, I'm doing all summer. I've been listening
Speaker 2: to audiobooks and podcasts and catching up, delved into some
Speaker 2: crazy cases, some some pods. I've been listening to cases
Speaker 2: I've never heard before.
Speaker 1: Which is the best?
Speaker 2: Yeah, totally, Dylan, are you ready to discuss Larry Flint? Today?
Speaker 2: We have part two of Larry's story and it just
Speaker 2: keeps getting weirder.
Speaker 1: I must say, since Heather draft we did part one,
Speaker 1: I've done a lot of research with the you know,
Speaker 1: stuff that Larry created and worked. So, yeah, if you
Speaker 1: need to know anything.
Speaker 2: Just what what does that mean?
Speaker 1: It's a joe.
Speaker 2: You've been doing your own research.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I've been looking at hustlers.
Speaker 2: You've been going down the rabbit hole Butler magazine.
Speaker 1: But only if they're a doll geared in like really
Speaker 1: old stickies and like from behind someone's you know garage. Yeah,
Speaker 1: out in the garage behind the little mini behind.
Speaker 2: The refrigerator for seventy years.
Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah, they have to be a little bit moist.
Speaker 2: Do you remember finding these kind of nooti magas when
Speaker 2: you were a kid. Did you ever stumble across a
Speaker 2: big collection by chance?
Speaker 1: Uh? No, I did not. My father decided he didn't
Speaker 1: want to live where we did, so he wasn't around.
Speaker 1: So you know, there was wasn't that. I didn't ever
Speaker 1: find my mom's nudi mags shout out, Mom, you hit him? Well,
Speaker 1: I guess, but no, I literally never found a stash.
Speaker 2: We know that your mom. She is like an intellectual.
Speaker 2: She was in the Playboy for the articles.
Speaker 1: Oh yeah, definitely.
Speaker 2: I had an uncle, had a roundy uncle, and he
Speaker 2: had like this little well. He had a piece of
Speaker 2: property behind my grandma's house, but for years it was empty,
Speaker 2: and he had like this little cabin type of building
Speaker 2: that he had built on the property right where he
Speaker 2: would hang out sometimes. I guess you could say, when he.
Speaker 1: Didn't have anywhere else to go.
Speaker 2: Right, Yeah, maybe because it was like a party cabin
Speaker 2: type of thing. So my cousin and his daughter, she
Speaker 2: was a couple years younger than me. You know, we
Speaker 2: would always be like, oh, the playhouse for us, So
Speaker 2: we would go kind of hang out in there, right,
Speaker 2: but it was you know, it was a party pad.
Speaker 2: So you might find some like beer cans in the
Speaker 2: corner or whatever. But I remember he had a stash
Speaker 2: of like Playboy and Penthouse and Hustler. Okay, so I
Speaker 2: think my first introduction was like maybe eight nine, ten
Speaker 2: somewhere in there.
Speaker 1: So and you were looking through them, well, yeah, I
Speaker 1: was like what is this?
Speaker 2: But I remember thinking, like, not even thinking much about
Speaker 2: the nudity, but just being like, these women are so
Speaker 2: glamorous because they were all so beautiful, right, and had
Speaker 2: like perfect hair and tans and a.
Speaker 1: Little bit of fashion going on there. Yeah, the clothes
Speaker 1: that were taking all well you know.
Speaker 2: The pearls with the big hair or whatever. And in
Speaker 2: my like eight nine year old brain, I was like,
Speaker 2: these women are glamorous.
Speaker 1: This is like glamor, right, these.
Speaker 2: Women are very glamorous. Oh and I can see their titties,
Speaker 2: but look they're glamorous, right. Yeah.
Speaker 1: No, It's funny because you know, you know, I certainly
Speaker 1: had some friends who found you know, access here and
Speaker 1: there and it's all very It's almost comical to think
Speaker 1: about how hush hush and taboo it felt just to
Speaker 1: you know, come across something like that as a as
Speaker 1: a child or a young person. And nowadays it's just
Speaker 1: so everything is just so raw and in your face.
Speaker 1: It's almost like it's lost a luster to a degree,
Speaker 1: you know what I mean.
Speaker 2: Well, I guess there's something about having that innocence of
Speaker 2: being a young person or being kind of naive about
Speaker 2: these things, and then you stumble upon like maybe your
Speaker 2: first like a dirty magazine or like a movie like
Speaker 2: a VHS, and you get some weird cover and you're like,
Speaker 2: what versus it's just so accessible today.
Speaker 1: Well, you know, and they would have the rack and
Speaker 1: like convenience stores and stuff that had the it was
Speaker 1: like behind right, it was off to the side or
Speaker 1: some in a corner and it would be covered and
Speaker 1: all that they would be wrapped in plasts. I would just.
Speaker 2: See like the top, you get the name of the
Speaker 2: magazine or something.
Speaker 1: Yeah, and I always saw it. And then you see
Speaker 1: some guy or whatever over there like kind of looking
Speaker 1: through them, and you're like, oh, cayves of creep, you know.
Speaker 2: Or you would have like the video store, the VHS
Speaker 2: store where you would go rimped a movie and they
Speaker 2: might have a back room.
Speaker 1: I wanted to go in that back room you did,
Speaker 1: just because you're telling me I can't, Like, I want
Speaker 1: to go through that dirty curtain.
Speaker 2: The Dirty Curtain, dude, it's a great band name, the
Speaker 2: Dirty Curtain.
Speaker 1: Yeah, welcome the Dirty Curtains.
Speaker 2: Yeah, they're opening up at Muddy Roots this year. Literally,
Speaker 2: are you ready to get into today's episode, Dylan? We
Speaker 2: have a lot to talk about, and like I said,
Speaker 2: it just keeps getting weirder. Larry has had and you
Speaker 2: know rip Larry passed away a few years ago, but
Speaker 2: Larry has had a very interesting life.
Speaker 1: Well it's certainly seemed that way in his early life
Speaker 1: that you described in part one. So let's just dive
Speaker 1: straight into.
Speaker 2: Part two because it continues to get stranger as the
Speaker 2: years passed. So last episode we covered Larry Flint's early
Speaker 2: success and rise to fame. Larry is a millionaire now,
Speaker 2: he's living in a wealthy enclave in Ohio and has
Speaker 2: faced his first trial for obscenity and organized crime. His
Speaker 2: brother Jimmy and Althea and Hustler's cove vice president Alan
Speaker 2: Van Shake were arresting charged alongside Larry. As we mentioned
Speaker 2: last episode. Now, in nineteen seventy three, the Supreme Court's
Speaker 2: landmark ruling in Miller versus California allowed local communities to
Speaker 2: apply their own laws regarding obscenity.
Speaker 1: And I could imagine that's when things really kind of
Speaker 1: get hay go hey, hey, why right?
Speaker 2: I forgot to mention in the last episode that Larry
Speaker 2: had already been involved with the prosecutor Simon Lace Junior.
Speaker 2: Back in nineteen seventy two, Larry was caught in the
Speaker 2: middle of a bar fight and during the fight a
Speaker 2: gun had gone off. After this discharge, Larry consoled a
Speaker 2: woman who was there and had witnessed this fight and
Speaker 2: the gun. She was upset. I mean, I think most
Speaker 2: of us would be if we were in a bar
Speaker 2: that ended with some gunfire, right, Yeah. So she put
Speaker 2: her head down on Larry's lap and she's just crying
Speaker 2: and he's comforting her. She has her head in his lap,
Speaker 2: and he ends up being charged with firing the gun,
Speaker 2: even though he did not fire the weapon, and Simon
Speaker 2: Lace tried to charge Larry with sodomy, alleging that this
Speaker 2: woman wasn't crying in his lap, but was instead giving
Speaker 2: Larry quote Felucio.
Speaker 1: Okay, well that sound that seems ridiculous. It's right.
Speaker 2: This guy seems like he's really obsessed with perversion.
Speaker 1: Well, and also seems like he has something against Larry. Right,
Speaker 1: I mean, he didn't shoot the gun, but he's getting
Speaker 1: you know, he's catching that charge.
Speaker 2: Why is that any first thought though, Like, it can't
Speaker 2: be that Larry's consoling this woman. It automatically has to
Speaker 2: be something sexual. See that lets me know this is
Speaker 2: all more about Simon than it is Larry.
Speaker 1: Well, so this thing just happened, this you know, fight
Speaker 1: and a gun, and everybody's kind of all to hell.
Speaker 1: And but who in the world would.
Speaker 2: Be like, Hey, yeah, I'm really turned on by all this.
Speaker 2: I'm very aroused.
Speaker 1: I bet I know what'll make you feel better.
Speaker 2: I can't wait to get into your pants.
Speaker 1: I mean, that's crazy pull it out.
Speaker 2: Nobody would do that, well, I'm I mean maybe most people.
Speaker 2: I'm not going to say nobody's gonna do that, because
Speaker 2: in today's world, I think there will always be somebody
Speaker 2: who will do that. You know what I'm saying, Simon
Speaker 2: Lee's Junior, the ultra conservative prosecutor whose mission was to
Speaker 2: bring down pornography, adult bookstores, movie theaters, et cetera, had
Speaker 2: a very close relationship with a man named Charles Keating.
Speaker 2: Keating had been key to getting Lays elected back in
Speaker 2: nineteen seventy one. Keating's brother ran the Cincinnati Inquirer, a
Speaker 2: local newspaper. Now, during this time, the press was constantly
Speaker 2: reporting on Larry, painting him as this evil smut peddler
Speaker 2: who was single handedly responsible for all the crimes in
Speaker 2: the state of Ohio.
Speaker 1: Okay, every criminal.
Speaker 2: Activity could be traced back to Larry and his pornography industry.
Speaker 1: So basically he was the kingpin, Yes, the puppet master,
Speaker 1: controlling all crime in Ohio.
Speaker 2: You robbed a bank, it must be Hustler magazine. Well,
Speaker 2: instead of being angry at the press, Larry found it flattering.
Speaker 2: I mean, his attitude was definitely that free press, no
Speaker 2: matter how positive or negative, is still free press.
Speaker 1: Well it's true, I mean, you can't buy this type
Speaker 1: of coverage, right.
Speaker 2: The focus on him was almost, like I said, flattering.
Speaker 2: Larry had no problem being the center of attention. And
Speaker 2: so Larry, I mean, he found it amusing. Like, oh,
Speaker 2: you guys are all about little old me. You want
Speaker 2: to make little old me famous? Okay.
Speaker 1: Well, and what's funny is that this is in essence
Speaker 1: of pressure campaign they're trying to wage against Larry to
Speaker 1: you know, and some people it would work. They don't
Speaker 1: want to be talked about. They don't want to be
Speaker 1: in the news or in newspapers.
Speaker 2: They don't want their reputations slander dragged through the mud,
Speaker 2: business aired, their personal you know, life aired out there.
Speaker 2: But Larry just doesn't care.
Speaker 1: And yeah, for a guy like Larry, he's like, gosh,
Speaker 1: every day if he's on the you know, front page,
Speaker 1: it's it's good for him. Right.
Speaker 2: With a Supreme Court ruling, now the local authorities have
Speaker 2: the right to determine what is obscene, like two people
Speaker 2: having sex obscene? Oh god, it could be a number
Speaker 2: of things, so gross. Miller versus California was one of
Speaker 2: the most important First Amendment cases because it sought to
Speaker 2: answer a deceptively simple question, what is obscenity? The Supreme
Speaker 2: Court held that obscenity is not protected by the First Amendment,
Speaker 2: but defining the term obscenity has proven to be extremely difficult.
Speaker 2: The case involved Marvin Miller, who mailed unsolicited brochures advertising
Speaker 2: sexually explicit books and films. A restaurant owner who received
Speaker 2: one complained, and Miller was convicted under California's obscenity laws.
Speaker 2: The Supreme Court used the case to create a new
Speaker 2: standard for determining what counts as legally obscene. They developed
Speaker 2: a three part test the court called the Miller Test. Oh,
Speaker 2: material is legally obscene only if all three of the
Speaker 2: are true. First, the average person applying contemporary community standards
Speaker 2: would find that the work appeals to a prurient, meaning, morbid,
Speaker 2: or unhealthy interest in sex.
Speaker 1: Oh.
Speaker 2: Two, the work depicts sexual conduct in a patently offensive way,
Speaker 2: as specifically defined by state law.
Speaker 1: That's still leaving a lot of room for a subjective
Speaker 1: or objective. I don't know what the right word is there, but.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, well it's subjective. Objective is like fair
Speaker 2: Fax true, Okay, So yeah, I mean one subjective is
Speaker 2: like opinion interpretation.
Speaker 1: One person's this grosses me out? Is another person I
Speaker 1: found this very appealing. Yeah, I mean so, yeah, it's
Speaker 1: so tricky.
Speaker 2: Number three, Taken as a whole, the work lacks serious literary,
Speaker 2: artistic political or scientific value. If even one of these
Speaker 2: elements is missing, the material cannot legal be classified as obscene.
Speaker 1: Oh so that's why sometimes in pornos they wear lab codes.
Speaker 2: Okay, it makes total sense, now do they really?
Speaker 1: Yeah, like we're going to do an experiment. You know,
Speaker 1: what have you been watching?
Speaker 2: Why is this a slippery slope? Well, the biggest criticism
Speaker 2: is that obscenity isn't an objective concept like fraud or theft.
Speaker 2: It depends heavily on culture values and personal judgment. Community
Speaker 2: standards vary, Like what might be considered acceptable in New
Speaker 2: York City could be considered obscene in a small rural community.
Speaker 1: Right, and that is the problem. Right. But I mean,
Speaker 1: in a way, you could argue this allows each community
Speaker 1: to craft their definition of obscenity to what fits the
Speaker 1: majority of their population.
Speaker 2: Right. And that's why the Supreme Court essentially handed back
Speaker 2: with this case of Miller versus California.
Speaker 1: But what's the problem in something like that, I think
Speaker 1: is because it does lead to legal issues, is that
Speaker 1: people can they can use it against people.
Speaker 2: Right, And that's why we're discussing how this is a
Speaker 2: slippery slope. Dalan Critics argue that constitutional rights should not
Speaker 2: be changed dramatically based on zip code, and I agree
Speaker 2: with that.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I think you do need a national standard when
Speaker 1: it comes to something like that.
Speaker 2: You must consider that community standards change over time. You know,
Speaker 2: material once considered shocking often becomes mainstream. Some of these
Speaker 2: examples include James Joyce's Ulysses, D. H. Lawrence's Lady Chatterley's Lover,
Speaker 2: and many films now that are shown on television. If
Speaker 2: standards evolve, something banned today might be protected tomorrow. Also,
Speaker 2: artistic value is subjective. Suppose to people view the same
Speaker 2: piece of artwork and one sees pornography and the other
Speaker 2: sees social commentary, artistic expression, or psychological exploration. So who
Speaker 2: decides the Miller test says, juries may decide some questions,
Speaker 2: while the quote serious value prong is evaluated more objectively
Speaker 2: by courts. But even so, disagreement is common. And as
Speaker 2: you mentioned before, this could be used maybe to abuse.
Speaker 1: Certain people, or it could be weaponiz right.
Speaker 2: Yeah, well, that's part of the discussion as well, is
Speaker 2: that governments can abuse vague standards. This is where our
Speaker 2: First Amendment advocates become concerned because history shows that governments
Speaker 2: have labeled many controversial works as obscene simply because they
Speaker 2: challenged prevailing beliefs, like, for example, authorities have attempted to
Speaker 2: suppress LGBTQ literature, feminist writing, birth control information works discussing
Speaker 2: interracial relationships, and also some avant garde art. If obscenity
Speaker 2: becomes whatever offends them a majority, it risks becoming a
Speaker 2: tool for censorship rather than a narrow exception to free speech.
Speaker 1: And see, you know, I think sometimes we get lost
Speaker 1: in the term of a the government, right, the government
Speaker 1: almost like this faithless entity, but it's just made up
Speaker 1: of people, right, They're the people at the top of
Speaker 1: the system, wielding the levers of power. And I think
Speaker 1: inherently people are flawed in the ways that they that
Speaker 1: can go to their head, right, or they could want
Speaker 1: to destroy someone for some personal reason, or I mean
Speaker 1: just all these problems with something like that. And the government,
Speaker 1: you know, is almost impossible to fight, right, even on
Speaker 1: a small scale in your local area. You know, I've
Speaker 1: always heard all my life you can't fight city hall,
Speaker 1: right when it comes to something like utilities or something
Speaker 1: you AI data centers, AI data centers are going to
Speaker 1: do them, whether you want them or not, and just
Speaker 1: anything like that is almost impossible to win because the
Speaker 1: system that you're going to turn to for help is
Speaker 1: that same system, right, I mean, it's just it's very strange.
Speaker 1: And that's why when you have that's why there needs
Speaker 1: to be clarity in laws and things like that, because
Speaker 1: they're room for subjective ideas is where the problem arises. Right.
Speaker 1: And then another problem is that once one in one instance,
Speaker 1: you may be like, yes, that is obscene, Our kids
Speaker 1: need to be protected, the public needs to be protected.
Speaker 1: But then again, those same laws could be applied to
Speaker 1: something that you don't find obscene at all and that
Speaker 1: you agree with, and now it's being yeah, I mean,
Speaker 1: what do you do? Well?
Speaker 2: A lot of people might be asking like why did
Speaker 2: the Core allow subjectivity? But the Core believed a rigid
Speaker 2: national definition was impossible. Judge Warren e Berger wrote that
Speaker 2: local communities should have some ability to decide what they
Speaker 2: find acceptable stead of imposing the standards of the most
Speaker 2: permissive areas on the entire country. So, in other words,
Speaker 2: the Court accepted some subjectivity because it viewed obscenity as
Speaker 2: deeply tied to local moral judgments. Many constitutional scholars argue
Speaker 2: the Miller test is increasingly difficult to apply because of
Speaker 2: the Internet. If everyone can instantly access the same material online,
Speaker 2: which community standards apply a conservative, rural county Los Angeles
Speaker 2: the entire country? I mean, those questions have become harder
Speaker 2: to answer in the digital age, and I think the
Speaker 2: core constitutional debate the disagreement ultimately comes down to competing principles.
Speaker 2: You know, you have supporters of the Miller test arguing
Speaker 2: that the First Amendment was never intended to protect every
Speaker 2: form of sexually explicit material, and community should retain some
Speaker 2: authority to regulate obscenity. Critics argue that because obscenity depends
Speaker 2: on change, cultural norms and subjective judgments, allowing the government
Speaker 2: to decide what is offensive creates a risk that protected
Speaker 2: speech will be suppressed. They contend that vague standards can
Speaker 2: chill lawful expression and may be applied unevenly. This tension
Speaker 2: between protecting free expression and permitting regulation of obscenity is
Speaker 2: why Miller versus California remains one of the most debated
Speaker 2: First Amendment decisions more than fifty years after it was decided,
Speaker 2: and I think it's important to discuss this since Larry's
Speaker 2: life involves fights for free speech and First Amendment, that
Speaker 2: we really do need to take the time to delve
Speaker 2: into this case and kind of discuss it.
Speaker 1: Well, yeah, now, would you say, I've always thought I
Speaker 1: knew of Larry Flint, and I knew kind of, you know,
Speaker 1: of the free free speech angle, and I kind of wondered,
Speaker 1: is he just using this to argue against something he
Speaker 1: wants right, say, profit or just whatever, just or just
Speaker 1: a thumb in the eye to everyone around him. But
Speaker 1: it seems to me, even in the little bit that
Speaker 1: I've learned about him in Part one, he really truly
Speaker 1: believes in this rite to free speech and expressure.
Speaker 2: Well, I think in the beginning perhaps he was just
Speaker 2: looking to put a thumb in the eye of these
Speaker 2: local authorities. But I do think that Larry was invested
Speaker 2: in First Amember rights and becoming a free speech advocate.
Speaker 2: And I think you'll see kind of as our story
Speaker 2: goes on, maybe why he is molded into more of
Speaker 2: an advocate than just a you know, like a raucous
Speaker 2: rabble rouser.
Speaker 1: Right. And that's always the problem with something like this
Speaker 1: is who gets to decide what is obscene? Because that's
Speaker 1: the process, right.
Speaker 2: So Larry mailed out four hundredenty twelve page color pamphlets
Speaker 2: to Cincinnati residents with graphic images from the Vietnam War.
Speaker 2: He printed the question what is obscene? On each pamphlet.
Speaker 2: So let's discuss. We need to discuss this guy named
Speaker 2: Al Goldstein, who was also kind of going through it
Speaker 2: at the same time. Larry was, are you familiar with
Speaker 2: the name Al Goldstein?
Speaker 1: Connected to Cincinnati, Ohio?
Speaker 2: Well, just connected to pornography? Just in any way, do
Speaker 2: you know this name?
Speaker 1: I believe this person is the owner of one of
Speaker 1: the largest pornographic businesses there is.
Speaker 2: Well. Al is an infamous New Yorker who published Screw magazine.
Speaker 1: Yes I knew it, I just did not.
Speaker 2: Yes, okay, okay, So all that of his magazine was
Speaker 2: printed in New York City. A Kansas court charged him
Speaker 2: with obscenity. The law was coming up with different loopholes
Speaker 2: to get pornographers, and both Al and Larry were known
Speaker 2: to push political boundaries because they're both very liberal and
Speaker 2: they don't mind to say, hey, we're democrats. Were liberals
Speaker 2: were pushing this very far left, which I guess at
Speaker 2: the time would have been considered like far left ideas
Speaker 2: about women and sex. Maybe not necessarily politics as you
Speaker 2: might think today, but politics at this time because there
Speaker 2: was a fight for women's rights, the civil rights movement,
Speaker 2: I mean, just with Larry publishing interracial couples in his
Speaker 2: magazine was considered silacious at this time, right right, And like,
Speaker 2: as we say, like ideals and whatnot change over the years.
Speaker 2: So the ideas I guess that Larry and al were
Speaker 2: pushing were considered like very liberal and very leftist ideas.
Speaker 2: And it's likely that the conservative prosecutors targeted men like
Speaker 2: Larry and Owl because of their views. So Alvin AL
Speaker 2: Goldstein was a New York publisher and aggressive free speech
Speaker 2: advocate who co founded Screw with Jim Buckley in nineteen
Speaker 2: sixty eight. Unlike magazines such as Playboy, Screw made a
Speaker 2: a little bit of an attempt to appear tasteful or respectable,
Speaker 2: like it didn't really at all.
Speaker 1: Well look, I mean when you read the title, right,
Speaker 1: I think you know that this is not going to
Speaker 1: be the most highbrow form of a pornographic.
Speaker 2: Magazine, right right, I mean it's not hygiene magazine.
Speaker 1: Yeah, And later on this year we're going to put
Speaker 1: out our other magazine, fucking Yes what Okay? What's this
Speaker 1: magazine about?
Speaker 2: Okay? So? Screw combined explicit photographs and advertisements with pornography, reviews,
Speaker 2: political attacks, sexual commentary, and Goldstein's deliberately offensive editorials. Goldstein
Speaker 2: was arrested repeatedly during the magazine's early years and treated
Speaker 2: obscenity prosecutions as both constitutional battles and publicity opportunities. In
Speaker 2: nineteen seventy four, federal authorities arrested Goldstein and Buckley and
Speaker 2: transported them from New York to Kansas. They and their corporation,
Speaker 2: Milky Way Productions, were accused of using the United States
Speaker 2: mail to distribute allegedly obscene material, in violation of eighteen USC.
Speaker 2: Fourteen sixty one, the federal law prohibiting the mailing of
Speaker 2: obscene material. The formal Kansas indictment contained thirteen counts, which
Speaker 2: included conspiracy and separate mailings. At the eventual nineteen seventy
Speaker 2: seven trial, prosecutors alleged that the defendants had mailed eleven
Speaker 2: issues of Screw and It's More explicitly pornographic companion publication
Speaker 2: Smut in Kansas.
Speaker 1: What Smut? So he just he went all the way
Speaker 1: with the last one there.
Speaker 2: Right, Yeah, no fucking Dylan.
Speaker 1: But smut, No, that smut's even better. I gotta be honest.
Speaker 2: I love the word smut. Yeah, I know, smutty son
Speaker 2: of a bitch.
Speaker 1: So you make this material, someone orders it from Kansas,
Speaker 1: That's what I'm as saying, subscribes, and you mail them
Speaker 1: what they paid for, and then you've.
Speaker 2: Given the people what they want.
Speaker 1: And see this is the problem, right. This is almost
Speaker 1: an example of what I was trying to articulate earlier,
Speaker 1: when the government, the local authorities think they have this
Speaker 1: power and they want to use it against you. Because,
Speaker 1: let's be honest, he made a pornographic magazine in New York,
Speaker 1: he mails it to some guy in Kansas or girl
Speaker 1: whoever orders or woman whoever ordered it, and everyone's happy. Right.
Speaker 1: It was a transactional relationship and it's really not bothering
Speaker 1: anybody unless you're going through this person's mail, like, how
Speaker 1: do you even know they have this magazine? Right? And
Speaker 1: so it also gets into okay, go ahead, okay.
Speaker 2: So federal agents reportedly ordered the publications under assume names
Speaker 2: and then use the resulting mailings as the basis for prosecution.
Speaker 1: Oh my god. And then they bring them magazines into
Speaker 1: into court is like an exhibit. They're all fucked up, right,
Speaker 1: They're all wrinkled and stuff.
Speaker 2: Goldstein regarded the choice of Kansas as deliberate forum shopping.
Speaker 2: His business, his employees and editorial operations were based in
Speaker 2: New York, but the government could prosecute where the material
Speaker 2: was received. Because the Miller test used local community standards,
Speaker 2: a federal prosecutor could potentially send or order a publication
Speaker 2: into a relatively conservative jurisdiction and ask a jury there
Speaker 2: to judge the material produced elsewhere. So that is where
Speaker 2: the problem, you know, kind of comes in with this
Speaker 2: still one.
Speaker 1: Well, look, just instantly, I see a huge overreach by
Speaker 1: the government in this situation because what he's making is legal. Well,
Speaker 1: whether they like it or not.
Speaker 2: We've seen this time and time again. It's almost like
Speaker 2: when they tried to get Randy Weaver to you know,
Speaker 2: saw off a shotgun for them, and pressed and pressed
Speaker 2: and pressed until he did, and then they decided to
Speaker 2: go kill his family.
Speaker 1: No, I have to say what I'm getting into it.
Speaker 1: This is the FBI Handbook one oh one. You create
Speaker 1: a situation that is criminal or illegal, and you actually
Speaker 1: push people. If it was, if you were taking out
Speaker 1: the mix you the FBI, the situation would have never developed, right,
Speaker 1: And that has happened, My gosh, that has happened so
Speaker 1: many times, well.
Speaker 2: Least three thatter agencies are problematic, and we as the
Speaker 2: American people, I think we need to recognize that we
Speaker 2: we cannot trust CIA. They're not here to help us.
Speaker 1: They're not They're part of the permanent state, and they
Speaker 1: really there are in our safety and as citizens and
Speaker 1: all that is not there.
Speaker 2: The CIA and the FBI have done far more damage
Speaker 2: to this country and to other countries around the world
Speaker 2: than we can even wrap our heads around.
Speaker 1: Right. Some people think they're directed by like a banking
Speaker 1: go ball, some old timmy shit.
Speaker 2: Well that would make sense, gold I see believe WHICHITAH
Speaker 2: offered prosecutors a more favorable jury than New York would have.
Speaker 2: That motivation is an interference and was disputed rather than
Speaker 2: judicially established. But the prosecution illustrates the problem very clearly.
Speaker 2: So what exactly were these charges? You might be asking
Speaker 2: most counts concerning mailing the publications themselves? Are they concerned
Speaker 2: mailing these publications? One additional count, count I think it
Speaker 2: was thirteen, was somewhat different. It accused the defendants of
Speaker 2: mailing a tabloid that told readers how to obtain two
Speaker 2: allegedly obscene films.
Speaker 1: Okay.
Speaker 2: Goldstein's lawyers argued that this portion of fourteen sixty one
Speaker 2: was unconstitutionally broad. The statue did not merely prohibit mailing
Speaker 2: obscene material. It also prohibited mailed notices or publications giving
Speaker 2: information about where obscene material could be obtained that could
Speaker 2: potentially criminalize a newspaper review that mentioned where a controversial
Speaker 2: book or film was a available.
Speaker 1: So can I even can I mail the words obscene material?
Speaker 1: Or is that too much?
Speaker 2: You would have to go and ask US District Court
Speaker 2: Judge Frank These no. In June nineteen seventy six, the
Speaker 2: US District Court Judge Frank These agreed and struck count thirteen.
Speaker 2: He reasoned that the provision could deter legitimate reviews, commentary,
Speaker 2: and editorial discussion because publishers would fear prosecution whenever they
Speaker 2: discussed material that another community might later deem obscene, and
Speaker 2: that's a reasonable The judge declared that portion of the
Speaker 2: statue facially overbroad because it threatened protected editorial expression as
Speaker 2: well as unprotected obscenity. The ruling did not dismiss the
Speaker 2: entire prosecution. The government could still proceed on the counts
Speaker 2: alleging that Goldstein and the others had mailed the allegedly
Speaker 2: obscene magazines themselves. Okay, so you might be wondering what happened.
Speaker 2: The procedural history is sometimes compressed inaccurately into Goldstein was
Speaker 2: acquitted in Kansas, but the full account is more complicated.
Speaker 2: The case lasted approximately three years. One trial produced a
Speaker 2: guilty verdict. That result was successfully challenged. A later trial
Speaker 2: ended with a hung jury rather than a definitive acquittal,
Speaker 2: and Milky Way Productions ultimately paid a thirty thousand dollars
Speaker 2: corporate fine, and the government dropped the remaining personal charges
Speaker 2: against Goldstein and Buckley. So Goldstein did not obtain a
Speaker 2: sweeping Supreme Court ruling declaring Screw constitutionally protected everywhere. The
Speaker 2: prosecution ended through a negotiated resolution after repeated proceedings, rather
Speaker 2: than a final appellate decision abolishing obscenity law. So you
Speaker 2: might be asking, how does this connect? Why are you
Speaker 2: bringing this up? While the Kansas case demonstrates the exact
Speaker 2: slippery slope problem created by Miller's reliance on contemporary community standards.
Speaker 2: New York publisher could lawfully sell a magazine to willing
Speaker 2: New York adults, but federal agents could order it through
Speaker 2: the mail in Kansas and have a Kansas jury decide
Speaker 2: whether it appealed to prurient interests and was patently offensive.
Speaker 2: The publisher therefore could not evaluate legality only under the
Speaker 2: standards of the community where the work was created. He
Speaker 2: potentially had to satisfy the standards of every community into
Speaker 2: which a copy might travel.
Speaker 1: That's ridiculous, you know what. That's so ridiculous. I mean seriously, Well, I'm.
Speaker 2: Glad that you are freely giving your opinion dealing. We
Speaker 2: need to know what you think.
Speaker 1: Well, no, I mean the face value is it doesn't
Speaker 1: make sense because you're you're asking for a standard to
Speaker 1: be set that is impossible.
Speaker 2: We're going to need a standard on this pussy and
Speaker 2: on this dicky. I need to have a standard on
Speaker 2: this labia. Okay, this needs if you're gonna show it
Speaker 2: and you're gonna open it up and we're going to
Speaker 2: see the MAJORA and the manura. We need to see
Speaker 2: we need to have an established law about this. You
Speaker 2: see what I'm saying.
Speaker 1: Hey, I got damn dirty bagazine, but I might have
Speaker 1: to drive them over there. I can't mail it.
Speaker 2: The nineteen seventy six judge described essentially this concern when
Speaker 2: discussing reviews. Publishers could not know whether sexually oriented material
Speaker 2: would be considered obscene in one destination, even though it
Speaker 2: was acceptable in another. That uncertainly encouraged self censorship. Goldstein's
Speaker 2: case therefore raises three major dangers. That the most restrictive
Speaker 2: community can influence national distribution, so like a national publisher
Speaker 2: may remove material for everyone rather than risk prosecution. In
Speaker 2: one conservative jurisdiction, the government can influence the venue when
Speaker 2: agents themselves order the material. Prosecutors may have considerable power
Speaker 2: to create a mailing into a jurisdiction they regard as
Speaker 2: favorable and protected expression can be in with pornography. Screw
Speaker 2: contained explicit material, but it also contained reviews, political commentary,
Speaker 2: and attacks on censorship. Treating the publication as one undifferentiated
Speaker 2: obscene object risk suppressing those expressive elements as well. Goldstein
Speaker 2: was intentionally crude and often personally abusive, so He was
Speaker 2: not an especially sympathetic First Amendment figure, but that is
Speaker 2: part of why his prosecutions matter. Constitutional speech protections are
Speaker 2: tested most seriously when the speaker and the materials are
Speaker 2: deeply unpopular. His Kansas prosecution shows how a subjective obscenity
Speaker 2: standard can allow geography, prosecutorial strategy, and a jury's moral
Speaker 2: reaction to determine whether publishing becomes a federal crime. So
Speaker 2: when Larry mailed out the Vietnam war pamphlets, people were outraged.
Speaker 1: Okay, well, I think he's making his point right.
Speaker 2: Yet Larry's stands was this isn't worse than anything being
Speaker 2: reported on the news. You can see these same images
Speaker 2: on television news at six pm on the eleven o'clock news,
Speaker 2: and it's all over the front page of every newspaper
Speaker 2: in the States.
Speaker 1: So they're all published images, nothing secretive or anything like that.
Speaker 2: So his point was, are you saying the images I
Speaker 2: seller obscene? Because these war images are obscene? And he
Speaker 2: does have a point, right, because again who decides what
Speaker 2: is obscene?
Speaker 1: And that's that was a really I think that was
Speaker 1: a really smart way to make his point.
Speaker 2: After the obscenity trial in Cincinnati. Larry's lawyers appealed and
Speaker 2: he was released on Bell. While Larry was on Bell,
Speaker 2: he was contacted by Ruth Stapleton Carter President, Jimmy Carter's sister.
Speaker 1: Oh wow, what does she want from Larry?
Speaker 2: Larry? Okay, we got to get into this. Ruth told
Speaker 2: Larry that she had things in with him, like she
Speaker 2: thought sexual repression was a bad thing. Ruth was a
Speaker 2: famous evangelical Christian, so naturally Larry was surprised and skeptical
Speaker 2: to hear from her. She invited Larry and Althea to
Speaker 2: dinner at her home. They flew to have this private
Speaker 2: meeting with Ruth. She's like, you know, come over, I'll
Speaker 2: make a jello molded gelatin salad, a kish fondue. You know,
Speaker 2: those were the only things I knew were popular in
Speaker 2: the seventies.
Speaker 1: Yeah, and we'll go set in my recessed pit in
Speaker 1: the living room and.
Speaker 2: Talk about it, right while we eat a molded gelatin salad.
Speaker 1: Yeah, and some cheeses.
Speaker 2: So I imagine they used a lot of Campbell's soups
Speaker 2: for sauces back then. I think those were really popular
Speaker 2: in the seventies. You got a little creama mushroom, some
Speaker 2: cream of celery, some creama chicken.
Speaker 1: Hey, those are still popular.
Speaker 2: Beef and rice, stuffed cabbage rolls, chell mey, ooh child. Again,
Speaker 2: this is my limited knowledge of seventies cuisine. So they
Speaker 2: fly in a private jet to North Carolina, where Ruth
Speaker 2: is awaiting their meeting. Althea. Now she is not into
Speaker 2: this dinner with Ruth and her husband, Bob. Althea was
Speaker 2: immediately turned off by the religious aspect, because you know,
Speaker 2: she's got a lot of trauma from growing up in
Speaker 2: orphanages and having been molested by nuns.
Speaker 1: Oh yeah, oh god, I forgot about that.
Speaker 2: Althea ses church people for a lack a better word,
Speaker 2: as hypocritical. Althea was suspicious, and she was pretty much like,
Speaker 2: you know, I don't like this bitch and her intentions
Speaker 2: are fishy.
Speaker 1: Well yeah, I mean, but I mean I understand where
Speaker 1: she's coming from. I mean, I don't understand, but I
Speaker 1: get why she feels the way she does given her history.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, Althea was like, you know, something isn't
Speaker 2: right about this from jump Street. She she views Ruth.
Speaker 1: Through a certain almost like an enemy of sorts. Yes,
Speaker 1: and but what would be what what to be gained by,
Speaker 1: you know, tricking you into having you know what I mean,
Speaker 1: because honestly, the way I view it, kind of if
Speaker 1: I had a chance to think about after I you know,
Speaker 1: you first learned it that this person's invited you to dinner,
Speaker 1: what them just reaching out to you almost is like
Speaker 1: going out on a limb on there from because the
Speaker 1: people that they are around and deal with maybe totally
Speaker 1: flabbergasted that they would even speak to you right or
Speaker 1: invite you to their home.
Speaker 2: Yeah. No, I mean, you can see kind of both
Speaker 2: sides of it. But Larry, on the other hand, he
Speaker 2: was more open to hearing Ruth out. She seems sincere
Speaker 2: in their conversations Originally, well, Ruth and Larry end up
Speaker 2: hitting it off that night and having a very lengthy
Speaker 2: private conversation. And this talk went on so long that
Speaker 2: ALTHEA and Bob ended up falling asleep not together.
Speaker 1: Damn, Okay, they didn't sleep together, But.
Speaker 2: I'm just saying, like this sinner goes on so long,
Speaker 2: Authie and Bob like fall asleep on the couch, like
Speaker 2: waiting for Ruth and Leary to wrap things up. So
Speaker 2: this is a conversation that went on like well into
Speaker 2: you know, the wee morning hours. Larry told Ruth his
Speaker 2: life story and when Ruth asked about Larry's faith and
Speaker 2: what he believed, Larry said he was an anarchist. Ruth
Speaker 2: shared with Larry her view that Jesus was an anarchist,
Speaker 2: and look, that actually works to an extent if you
Speaker 2: really look into this. I mean, there are a lot
Speaker 2: of scholars who go back and forth arguing this point.
Speaker 2: Some argue that Jesus's teachings share important themes with anarchism.
Speaker 2: He didn't advocate for chaos or the abolition of the
Speaker 2: social order, but Jesus challenged earthly political figures and authority
Speaker 2: and envisioned a different kind of community. In the cleansing
Speaker 2: of the Temple, Jesus publicly confronted the religious and economic establishment.
Speaker 2: Some passages from the Bibles, such as the Sermon on
Speaker 2: the Mount, have inspired many Christians to argue that Jesus
Speaker 2: opposed systems based on domination and coercive power. Jacques Elleul,
Speaker 2: who wrote Anarchy and Christianity, argues that the Bible consistently
Speaker 2: warns about concentrated political power, but of course, many scholars
Speaker 2: and historians reject these ideas. But that's one of the
Speaker 2: fascinating aspects of the Bible is that these interpretations and
Speaker 2: philosophical discussions can be sparked.
Speaker 1: Well, yeah, I'm no, I'm certainly no expert on the Bible,
Speaker 1: but my limited knowledge of you know, stories and of
Speaker 1: Jesus's deeds, if you will. He rails against the state
Speaker 1: right at times. I mean, he's the local power structure.
Speaker 2: Slipping the tables and he's whipping people.
Speaker 1: Yeah, and Jesus an ass bro, you know, and he's
Speaker 1: in his message is about exploitation and about you know,
Speaker 1: making a using people and shit, I lost my train.
Speaker 1: But you know, Jesus is kicking ass and taking names.
Speaker 1: But he really was against what everything you just eloquently described.
Speaker 2: So anyway, so anyway, Dylan.
Speaker 1: Yeah, that's right.
Speaker 2: Ruth appeals to Larry's sensibilities. She shares her love of
Speaker 2: Jesus with him, and, at least according to Larry, even
Speaker 2: indicates that she's had fantasies about being intimate with Jesus.
Speaker 1: Oh damn, Rue, I'm not trying.
Speaker 2: To blaspheme or anything over here. I'm just repeating what.
Speaker 1: No, she's trying to blast off in religious researched.
Speaker 2: I mean, I'm thinking, okay, so maybe she's praying to
Speaker 2: that Kenny Loggins, Jesus, you're the one with the sandy
Speaker 2: blonde hair and the abs. I mean, I guess that
Speaker 2: could be a turn on for.
Speaker 1: Some well back in the seventies. Dude, come on, like again, I'm.
Speaker 2: Not trying to be blasphemous here. I'm not trying to
Speaker 2: offend anyone. And at the end of the day, this
Speaker 2: seems to be a bit of an awkward conversation and
Speaker 2: one that I would want to see myself out of
Speaker 2: immediately if someone starts divulging that they have some kind
Speaker 2: of fantasy. Yes, you know, when they're hot for teacher
Speaker 2: like David Lee Roth, that's one thing. But when they're
Speaker 2: hot for Jesus, I don't know. That's a conversation. I
Speaker 2: don't think I need to have ever with anybody, right, No.
Speaker 1: I don't think I'm gonna have a T shirt that
Speaker 1: says hot for Jesus. No, not like that, not like
Speaker 1: that disrespectful.
Speaker 2: But anyway, I like.
Speaker 1: Jesus, you know, but I'm not hot for Jesus. This
Speaker 1: is a pretty cool dude. He was awesome.
Speaker 2: Did I've been listening to Johnny Cash read the Bible?
Speaker 1: Really?
Speaker 2: Yeah? This has been one of my pool listens when
Speaker 2: I pop in my little waterproof headphones.
Speaker 1: Now he just reads a word for word, no commentary, just.
Speaker 2: He yeah, he just reads the Bible. But you know,
Speaker 2: Johnny Cash, I could listen to him read anything, but
Speaker 2: listening to him read the Bible is I like it.
Speaker 2: I mean, it's actually pretty good. So if you want
Speaker 2: to reread the Bible or you want to listen to
Speaker 2: an audiobook version, I suggest the Johnny Cash version because
Speaker 2: I've enjoyed it. Now for the first time, maybe ever,
Speaker 2: Larry felt understood and cared for by Ruth. Because Ruth,
Speaker 2: at the end of the day, I mean, she's a
Speaker 2: very gentle soul. She exudes this kind of loving, kind,
Speaker 2: almost grandmotherly spirit, like when you think of a true Christian,
Speaker 2: a Christian woman, Ruth kind of ex I guess sort of.
Speaker 2: She exhibits a lot of those qualities that one might imagine,
Speaker 2: right right, just kind, gentle, loving, you know, she's approaching
Speaker 2: you with love and not from someone like hateful place.
Speaker 1: Well, yeah, and I think it's probably a combination of
Speaker 1: her Christian beliefs. But I also think it's just she's
Speaker 1: one of a person who's gentle like that, you know
Speaker 1: what I mean, make puts everyone at ease.
Speaker 2: Right, Well, this is something that Larry had not experienced
Speaker 2: in his life, right, I mean, he had a pretty
Speaker 2: rough upbringing. Doesn't sound like Larry ever truly had this
Speaker 2: kind of nurturing like loving approach. And look, Larry loves
Speaker 2: Althea and I'm sure she nurtured part of Larry's soul.
Speaker 2: But as far as like a spiritual nurturing, a lot
Speaker 2: of people don't get that if they're not in church
Speaker 2: or like around truly you know, I guess Christian or religious.
Speaker 1: People are someone who truly believes, you know, because a
Speaker 1: lot of people say I believe in God or I'm Christian.
Speaker 1: But right, that's as far as it goes.
Speaker 2: Well in my experience, there is a light that lives
Speaker 2: inside the faithful. And I think when you meet somebody
Speaker 2: who is truly like a faithful person and follower of
Speaker 2: Jesus and they really do truly try to live in
Speaker 2: Christ's footsteps and follow the word, they do have a
Speaker 2: light about them. And as someone who is not very religious,
Speaker 2: I mean I see it. I'm not going to deny it. Well, yeah,
Speaker 2: I know, I'm around you know, like my great grandpa
Speaker 2: is very close with him as a kid. Now, he
Speaker 2: was this kind of person. He was a Christian, He
Speaker 2: went to church regularly and was just like this really
Speaker 2: good soul and he just sort of exuded this light
Speaker 2: about him. Like he was the kind of man that
Speaker 2: people gravitated to him. He was very respected, had a
Speaker 2: lot of friends. It was just a really good person, you.
Speaker 1: Know, right, People would describe him as good people.
Speaker 2: Yeah, exactly. So, you know, I think Larry sees this
Speaker 2: light in Ruth and it's like nothing he's ever known.
Speaker 1: Wait, does Larry and Ruth hook up? Bro?
Speaker 2: I don't think so. Oh, they will both deny that,
Speaker 2: and I really don't think they did. I think I
Speaker 2: think they had a platonic relationship that maybe even became
Speaker 2: like they had a love for each other. But it
Speaker 2: was like a brotherly sisterly.
Speaker 1: Love right right right. But people oftentimes miss stake that.
Speaker 1: They always think there has to be something more to that.
Speaker 2: Right well, And I do think Ruth meant well, you know,
Speaker 2: Jimmy Carter throughout his life exhibited faith and did good
Speaker 2: works and let's be honest. He was too honest for politics.
Speaker 2: When people say I wish we had an honest politician,
Speaker 2: well you did, you had Jimmy Carter and you hated him. Well,
Speaker 2: he's not a great leader, I guess of the country.
Speaker 1: I grew up my whole life right quick, I'll say
Speaker 1: I grew up my whole life. Carter's worst president we
Speaker 1: ever have.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I heard that my life too.
Speaker 1: And now as I've been around the block, I've seen
Speaker 1: because the system has the same playbook, right, they just
Speaker 1: keep the same stuff over and over and just a
Speaker 1: different iteration. And what I think is he truly was
Speaker 1: an honest man, and I don't think he would succumb
Speaker 1: to the system. Right. He tried to wield the power
Speaker 1: that he had and the pulpit for good and they
Speaker 1: did not like it. And he made play the game
Speaker 1: bad decisions. I've certainly not went back and studied, you know,
Speaker 1: his policies and all that, but this is just off
Speaker 1: the top of my head. He didn't play the game,
Speaker 1: and they did everything in their power to make him
Speaker 1: look bad, including crashing the economy, fucking up anything they
Speaker 1: could with the you know whatever weird shit they do,
Speaker 1: and uh yeah, and that's that's he And he left
Speaker 1: that office still being a Christian man and a good person.
Speaker 2: And going on to do I mean, the man was
Speaker 2: like in his like seventies and eighties and he would
Speaker 2: be out building habitat for humanity houses.
Speaker 1: He lived it.
Speaker 2: I mean he walk the walk right, Oh yeah, right.
Speaker 2: So Ruth and Larry did have this genuine connection. Larry
Speaker 2: saw the good and Ruth, and Ruth could see the
Speaker 2: good in Larry, even if she didn't agree with some
Speaker 2: of his ideas, and the two form this close friendship. Now,
Speaker 2: I do think Ruth authentically wanted to reach out to Larry,
Speaker 2: and not for any motivations other than she saw he
Speaker 2: was being persecuted by people in his home state. She
Speaker 2: felt a calling or like a task placed on her
Speaker 2: heart to reach out to Larry. You know, she feels
Speaker 2: like this is her duty. She needs to to make
Speaker 2: a connection with this man and like share her beliefs
Speaker 2: and her faith with him. Larry and Ruth traveled to
Speaker 2: Los Angeles together to attend these different business matters, but
Speaker 2: they decided to fly together to LA and while flying
Speaker 2: on Larry's private jet, he was struck by the power
Speaker 2: of God.
Speaker 1: He had a.
Speaker 2: Sudden life changing experience. He fell onto his knees. The
Speaker 2: power of God, he said, was coursing through him. Down
Speaker 2: on his knees, Larry began to pray. He was just
Speaker 2: overcome with emotion while aboard this private jet. Oh wow,
Speaker 2: in Ruth's presence. Now, that night, Ruth stayed by Larry's
Speaker 2: side at the Beverly Hills Hotel as he is having
Speaker 2: this religious experience. Larry said, it was a purely platonic thing.
Speaker 2: Some people have pointed out they spent the night in
Speaker 2: this hotel room together. Well, that seems like a lot,
Speaker 2: But Larry's like, that's not what happened. We prayed together,
Speaker 2: Ruth watched over me, and you know, at the same time.
Speaker 2: It was like this beautiful shared experience between the two
Speaker 2: of them and had nothing to do with sex.
Speaker 1: Orse smite right now, thank.
Speaker 2: You for that now. The next morning, Larry reached out
Speaker 2: to Althea to tell her that he had found God.
Speaker 2: Althea's response was like, what the hell? Now? This was
Speaker 2: Althea's nightmare, right, so she does not know what's going on.
Speaker 2: And I understand that. I've said, I've been exploring my
Speaker 2: life lately. You know, my beliefs, my spirituality, and I
Speaker 2: do think we're in this battle between good and evil
Speaker 2: and we see it every day. And just because I
Speaker 2: have chosen to spend a good deal of my adult
Speaker 2: life as an atheist doesn't mean I have just or
Speaker 2: some hatred toward religious people. Some of the best people
Speaker 2: in my life, and I'm talking family and friends, you know,
Speaker 2: are religious, their believers, whatever you want to call it.
Speaker 2: And I'm all for people worshiping as they want, as
Speaker 2: long as it doesn't hurt anyone or call for violence
Speaker 2: against people. And if your religion does tell you to
Speaker 2: behead infidels or line up people for genocide, then you
Speaker 2: know I'm not down with that. I will say no.
Speaker 1: And I think I would claim to be atheists much
Speaker 1: for much of my adult life, but what I always
Speaker 1: found I always respected people's right to believe. Yes, right,
Speaker 1: That's what I would say to people, because you know,
Speaker 1: some people, oh you know, like they have and it's
Speaker 1: one it's one thing to share with me, that's fine,
Speaker 1: but just to discount everything I say and how I
Speaker 1: feel completely and just be like, hey, you're wrong, you
Speaker 1: better this, and that I never understood because I would
Speaker 1: tell them, I respect your right to believe, Please respect
Speaker 1: my right to not believe. Right, just let me be me.
Speaker 2: Well, yeah, I mean some of our best friends that
Speaker 2: just came down and you know, visited us a couple
Speaker 2: of weeks ago. They're very religious people. Our buddy has
Speaker 2: an undergrad degree in theology, right, you know, he loves
Speaker 2: to talk about Christianity, loves to answer any questions you have.
Speaker 2: But you know, we've always managed to have very respectful conversations,
Speaker 2: and I respect him, I respect his beliefs, right, and
Speaker 2: he doesn't try to push anything on us. But he's
Speaker 2: always there if we have questions or we want to
Speaker 2: have a discussion. He's very open to that.
Speaker 1: No, No, he's very open in a way that many
Speaker 1: people are not. Right.
Speaker 2: Well, Althea she's not open to this, and she's very
Speaker 2: shaken by this revelation. Not only is she not religious,
Speaker 2: but again she has this serious childhood trauma tied to
Speaker 2: religious figures. Althea thinks this is bullshit, and she does
Speaker 2: not like Ruth. She has not liked her from the
Speaker 2: start and really thinks that Larry has been snookered by
Speaker 2: this woman.
Speaker 1: Now, I wonder if oh, and a side note, I
Speaker 1: don't think I would label myself atheist. Now I don't
Speaker 1: know what I am, but as Heather said, there's certainly
Speaker 1: I do subscribe to the idea of good and evil
Speaker 1: no matter what package it comes in.
Speaker 2: You're exploring your spirituality, no way, and.
Speaker 1: There certainly is energy, even if it's just energy of
Speaker 1: good and bad going on in the world. But I
Speaker 1: think what her problem with Ruth in the very beginning,
Speaker 1: this was her night, This was her fear that Larry
Speaker 1: religion would come into Larry's life, and for whatever, well,
Speaker 1: I think for some obvious reasons, she has an issue
Speaker 1: with religion period, right, And she doesn't want it to
Speaker 1: come into be a part of his life because she
Speaker 1: doesn't want anything to do with religion period and certainly
Speaker 1: doesn't want Larry to either.
Speaker 2: Right. And I'm sure there have been couples out there
Speaker 2: who have at some point maybe changed their beliefs. One
Speaker 2: becomes Christian or adopts some other religious belief while the
Speaker 2: other partner remains you know, atheist or non religious, and
Speaker 2: it can create problems in a relationship.
Speaker 1: Well, yeah, you know, some people claim in the Bible
Speaker 1: it says you shouldn't mix races. But I've always thought
Speaker 1: that it says you shouldn't mix really basically your religious
Speaker 1: beliefs or morals, because I think that is hard for
Speaker 1: a couple to have significantly different, very far apart beliefs.
Speaker 2: Like I've always wondered how that works, you know, like,
Speaker 2: for example, the vice president and his wife have very different.
Speaker 1: Religious beliefs, right, they do? And they do?
Speaker 2: How do you decide which religion you're going to raise
Speaker 2: your children in? I don't know. I mean, I think
Speaker 2: those are are questions that would maybe create tension in
Speaker 2: a relationship.
Speaker 1: I think it could make it tough.
Speaker 2: But Athels like, you know, oh so, so now you're
Speaker 2: gonna be all preachy preachy while you're selling images of
Speaker 2: women spread eagle, Like are you going to start manufacturing
Speaker 2: these cross shaped dildos? I mean, she's fuming, and she
Speaker 2: thinks Larry's lost his dawn mind. Larry told her, like,
Speaker 2: I've been living life the wrong way. Althea wasn't the
Speaker 2: only person in Larry's life who found this sudden religious
Speaker 2: fervor unsettling. Most of Larry's inner circle is just blown away.
Speaker 2: They're like, how's Larry going to maintain Hustler magazine with
Speaker 2: this newfound Christian faith.
Speaker 1: Well yeah, I mean it seems like it would be
Speaker 1: in a conflict for sure.
Speaker 2: Yeah. And if you've seen the film The People Versus
Speaker 2: Larry Flint, I mean I think there's even some scenes
Speaker 2: kind of poking fun maybe at this Larry like, oh,
Speaker 2: we need to have somebody on a cross, and they're like,
Speaker 2: what are you talking about, Larwick, We're not putting this
Speaker 2: in Hustler, Like this is crazy, right, right, So they're
Speaker 2: worried about Larry, but also the fate of the business
Speaker 2: because a lot of people rely on Larry, you know,
Speaker 2: and it's a little selfish to worry about money, but
Speaker 2: Hustler is a livelihood. I mean, it's the livelihood of many.
Speaker 2: At this point, people are counting on Larry. He's their leader,
Speaker 2: and now he's taken this complete one eighty And when
Speaker 2: I say a lot of people are relying on him,
Speaker 2: I mean not just the magazine, but like the printing house,
Speaker 2: the you know, the delivery drivers. All these people have
Speaker 2: their livelihood tied up in Larry's business.
Speaker 1: Well, yeah, you're talking about the photographers, you know, people
Speaker 1: who behind the scenes, part of the crew.
Speaker 2: And the janitor.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean everybody, everybody whoever you know is doing
Speaker 1: the administrative side the business, the office. I mean thousands
Speaker 1: of people, I would imagine.
Speaker 2: But the people who loved Larry, despite their reservations, wanted
Speaker 2: to support him. Larry's on this spiritual journey now, and
Speaker 2: Larry does seem happy. And it wasn't truly harming you know, anyone.
Speaker 2: It was Larry's personal journey in his life. And one
Speaker 2: thing that did come out of Larry's newfound faith, wasn't
Speaker 2: he decided to treat all of his employees to a
Speaker 2: pay raise.
Speaker 1: Okay, now this is cool.
Speaker 2: Larry focused on making sure all the women in his
Speaker 2: employee were making a solid living wage. He wanted everyone
Speaker 2: from the bottom up to make at least fifteen thousand
Speaker 2: dollars a year, which by nineteen seventy standards was pretty awesome.
Speaker 2: Fifteen thousand is equivalent to the purchasing power of one
Speaker 2: hundred and twenty nine thousand dollars today, what Jesus so
Speaker 2: in Ohio at this time, it was a lot of money.
Speaker 2: And if you were a secretary or a janitor making
Speaker 2: that kind of money, you'd consider yourself pretty darn successful.
Speaker 1: Right, yeah, sign me up. Right.
Speaker 2: So Larry's all about like taking care of his people,
Speaker 2: and Ruth is encouraging this. I mean Ruth she recognizes
Speaker 2: how Larry values women and that Larry's kind of like
Speaker 2: this feminist, you know, big supporter of women, and so
Speaker 2: she's encouraging some of this, like, yes, you have these
Speaker 2: women doing these jobs and maybe it's not the most
Speaker 2: savory work, but you really should focus on taking care
Speaker 2: of these people.
Speaker 1: No, And there's a guy I forget his name in
Speaker 1: the modern day who has the same model. He wouldn't
Speaker 1: raise his own pay or the profit margins of the
Speaker 1: company until every single employee was at a certain level
Speaker 1: on salary and benefits, and people just said he was crazy.
Speaker 1: This is years ago. People said he was crazy to
Speaker 1: do this, and his company grew exponentially over the next
Speaker 1: five six years and it's thriving like you never, like,
Speaker 1: no one.
Speaker 2: Can I know that story, And I think I can't
Speaker 2: think of the company.
Speaker 1: And it just makes sense, right, because happy cows make
Speaker 1: sweet milk. Right, Oh yeah, yeah, you know some of
Speaker 1: the sweet milk I do move it's whole milk. I
Speaker 1: had to tell you that. I'll well just just filter
Speaker 1: it or something I did.
Speaker 2: I would drink skim milk before I met you.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I know. There was a fight in our household
Speaker 1: for a while. Well not a fight, but she would
Speaker 1: get skim milk and I was just like, oh, and
Speaker 1: I think I may have been a whole milk guy
Speaker 1: or just that's what was usually in the fridge. And
Speaker 1: we met in the middle at two percent. And I
Speaker 1: gotta say, I couldn't go back to whole milk. It's
Speaker 1: very thick.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I can't do.
Speaker 1: I don't like thick milk.
Speaker 2: I didn't grow up drinking whole milk, see, And I
Speaker 2: think that's because my mom was raised very country and
Speaker 2: like raw milk, right and things like that, you know,
Speaker 2: growing up, and they didn't have they didn't go to
Speaker 2: the store and buy milk. It was like whatever my.
Speaker 1: Grandparents whatever you could.
Speaker 2: Mike on the farm, yeah, exactly. In my dad's family,
Speaker 2: they was more city types. They went to the grocery store, right.
Speaker 2: So we never had like whole milk in the house.
Speaker 2: We always had skim. And I think it's because my
Speaker 2: mom grew up drinking like raw milk, and she would like, oh,
Speaker 2: it's so gross because it's got like chunks in it
Speaker 2: or whatever, you know.
Speaker 1: Like, yeah, I'd be wanting to try that raw milk.
Speaker 2: But then that woman also down some damn buttermilk, so
Speaker 2: I don't.
Speaker 1: Oh yeah, I cooked with.
Speaker 2: Buttermilk, but I don't ever just turn it up and drink.
Speaker 1: Just have a grin glass of buttermilk.
Speaker 2: Yeah, a lot of the old timers in my family
Speaker 2: loves some buttermilk, buttermilk and corn bread, all right, okay.
Speaker 2: He also opened a daycare center for the female employees
Speaker 2: so they wouldn't worry about their children while they were
Speaker 2: at work. And as I said in episode one, Larry
Speaker 2: is a very forward thinking man when it comes to women.
Speaker 2: Some might say Larry's exploiting women with his magazine, but
Speaker 2: he sees it as he's empowering women. Larry loves women,
Speaker 2: like he doesn't hate women. He doesn't. He's not like,
Speaker 2: you know, I'm gonna exploit these women because I hate them.
Speaker 2: Larry's he loves women, so he's like, I want to
Speaker 2: see women, I want to be around women.
Speaker 1: Well, I guess from his viewpoint, he's giving them women
Speaker 1: the opportunity to control their own interest and to do
Speaker 1: something that only women can.
Speaker 2: Do right, and he wants to see women succeed. He
Speaker 2: supports women, and for that, Larry will always have a
Speaker 2: place in my heart. I mean, I truly do think Larry,
Speaker 2: despite some of his flaws, and maybe Folcus don't always
Speaker 2: agree with Larry, but I do appreciate the way that
Speaker 2: Larry treated women. You know, at this time, they were
Speaker 2: not treated very well, especially in the workplace. Women had
Speaker 2: very limited options. They had no room to like work
Speaker 2: their way up. I mean I automatically think of that
Speaker 2: comedy Nine to five, right, I love Nine to five,
Speaker 2: Dabney Coleman, Dolly Parton, Jane Fonda, Lily Tomlin. Oh my god,
Speaker 2: it's so silly and funny. But it's like a movie
Speaker 2: I grew up on. But that's really how it was.
Speaker 2: I mean, women were allowed only certain jobs. They had
Speaker 2: no upward mobility, no matter if they were qualified for
Speaker 2: the position. A man would get hired to take that
Speaker 2: next level job.
Speaker 1: Well, see that stupid because you're just missing out on talent, right.
Speaker 1: I think everything, everything in the workforce should be merit based.
Speaker 2: I agree.
Speaker 1: I think entry level, yes, everybody comes in even playing field,
Speaker 1: but from there, I think everything should be merit based. Hey,
Speaker 1: you get a fifty cent raise this year. I get
Speaker 1: a dollar twenty five because I busted my ass all
Speaker 1: year long. I kept my mouth shut, I didn't complain,
Speaker 1: I don't call in all the time. I come do
Speaker 1: my job. I'm extra helpful. That employee deserves to make
Speaker 1: more and to get bigger raised than employee that's doing
Speaker 1: the bare minimum. And that's nothing against the other person.
Speaker 1: That's the way they want to conduct themselves. But I
Speaker 1: think merit base should be true across the board in
Speaker 1: all industries.
Speaker 2: Meritocracy. Buddy, you have middle management written all over you doing.
Speaker 1: But you know it's funny because you do hear about
Speaker 1: and what she's describing it was certainly true. Then women, women,
Speaker 1: talented women being passed over making less for the same
Speaker 1: work than men, which is wrong. But you know in
Speaker 1: the hourly blue collar side, this doesn't exist. Right. Well,
Speaker 1: if I get hired in with a woman, I mean
Speaker 1: I got story for it. She gets the same exact
Speaker 1: wage I do, and she has its exact same opportunities
Speaker 1: that I do. Now, whether or not you know somebody
Speaker 1: shits on her or doesn't allow her to get some
Speaker 1: overtime just because she a woman. Certainly that could happen,
Speaker 1: but it's not been my experience on the hourly blue
Speaker 1: collar side.
Speaker 2: Well here's an example, okay, And a lot of people
Speaker 2: kind of find this to be funny, and I guess
Speaker 2: in some way it is a little amusing. So my
Speaker 2: nana before she passed away, she worked for a big
Speaker 2: manufacturer in our county that closed in the nineties and
Speaker 2: left our county devastated. But way before that, Nana worked
Speaker 2: for this company for like fourteen fifteen years as like
Speaker 2: a secretary, and she was, you know, taking on more
Speaker 2: responsibility and doing more, but was like never being promoted
Speaker 2: to anything else. And in nineteen eighty, which is the
Speaker 2: the year I was born, so let's celebrate, she decided
Speaker 2: to quit that job and got her CDL and went
Speaker 2: on the road with my papa, who was a long
Speaker 2: haul trucker, right, and they had they owned their own truck,
Speaker 2: and my nana became a trucker. And even after my
Speaker 2: papa retired, my Nana kept trucking. She did she taught
Speaker 2: truck driving school, and she had a she drove a
Speaker 2: damn tanker truck.
Speaker 1: She retired.
Speaker 2: She had the certifications her sixties, Yes, and she loved it,
Speaker 2: and she was making good money. And she would say,
Speaker 2: I get paid the same as every man here. Yeah
Speaker 2: I'm not you know, they don't discriminate against me because
Speaker 2: I'm a woman. If I can get the truck from
Speaker 2: A to B, I get paid the same as my partner,
Speaker 2: my driving partner, who's a man. And that's what she did,
Speaker 2: you know. And she you know, I always like kind
Speaker 2: of looked at my nana as a bit of a
Speaker 2: hero because she was sort of like this outside of
Speaker 2: the box kind of lady. And I guess a feminist
Speaker 2: in her own right, you know, right, because she would
Speaker 2: always say, you need to have your own money, don't
Speaker 2: you know, don't rely on somebody else to take care
Speaker 2: of you have your own be able to take care
Speaker 2: of yourself. And you know, she did this thing and
Speaker 2: it was because of this glass ceiling. And we would
Speaker 2: talk about it and she would say, you know, it
Speaker 2: was just such a different time.
Speaker 1: Well, you're nanny or you're what would.
Speaker 2: You call her, well, nanny or Nana?
Speaker 1: Nana? Nana sounds awesome, Nana, Linda.
Speaker 2: She was awesome. Okay, So Larry was friends with a
Speaker 2: comedian named Dick Gregory, and Gregory helped Larry become a vegetarian.
Speaker 2: Larry became focused not only on his spiritual health, but
Speaker 2: on his whole health. Larry ended up dropping twenty five pounds,
Speaker 2: which he will later attribute to saving his life. In
Speaker 2: early nineteen seventy eight, Larry is still awaiting word on
Speaker 2: his appeal from that obscenity case in Cincinnati where they
Speaker 2: were trying to say it was an organized crime. Boss.
Speaker 1: My gosh, he is once.
Speaker 2: Again charged with obscenity, this time in Georgia, and a
Speaker 2: trial was set for March. This is Lawrenceville, Georgia in
Speaker 2: Gwynette County. Now, a few weeks before the trial, Larry
Speaker 2: and Dick went to the Bahamas for a bit of
Speaker 2: like a retreat. Larry wanted to relax and get ready
Speaker 2: for the upcoming trial. Dick was also a Christian, so
Speaker 2: the pair spent time praying, they did Bible study together,
Speaker 2: and we're just kind of enjoying this tropical paradise. So
Speaker 2: when Larry returns to the United States, he is ready
Speaker 2: for that trial in Gwinnette County. Larry's focus and clarity
Speaker 2: are where they need to be. Larry has hired Paul
Speaker 2: Cambria and a local attorney named Jeane Reeves to handle
Speaker 2: his case. So on the morning of March sixth, nineteen
Speaker 2: seventy eight, the judge called for a recess. We're going
Speaker 2: to go to lunch. Larry goes to lunch where he
Speaker 2: has a glass of water and some grapefruit juice part
Speaker 2: of his diet.
Speaker 1: Damn.
Speaker 2: I feel like there was this big craze of like
Speaker 2: the grapefruit diet back in the day. Oh yeah, where
Speaker 2: you just survived on like grape juice, grapefruit juice, grapefruit
Speaker 2: and like a like a tomato. I mean, it's just
Speaker 2: like the most random diet.
Speaker 1: No, it was. The grapefruit was everywhere for years. I
Speaker 1: remember when I was growing up, and it's I can't.
Speaker 1: I hate even the sight of a grapefruit, grapefruit, the juice,
Speaker 1: the taste, it is just never I've tried. And I'm
Speaker 1: a citrus man. I love all the citruses, but I
Speaker 1: could never. I can't. I almost recall if I'm too tart.
Speaker 1: I don't know what it is, and I like tartness.
Speaker 1: I could eat a lemon or lime. I mean, I
Speaker 1: don't know me and grapefruits don't mix. But yes, grapefruits
Speaker 1: and letars were everywhere.
Speaker 2: Grapefruits and leotards. Absolutely, Larry is juicing, So Jack Lalange,
Speaker 2: move over. Larry's got the juice.
Speaker 3: You know.
Speaker 2: I try to roll diet one time and it included juicing,
Speaker 2: and honestly, it was just way too expensive to maintain.
Speaker 1: Juice so much.
Speaker 2: Well, you end up with all this leftover pulp, so
Speaker 2: you have to like be creative with it or otherwise
Speaker 2: you're just throwing away like pounds of.
Speaker 1: Money fruit and vegetable pulp. Holy cow, what do you
Speaker 1: do with all the pulp?
Speaker 2: You can use like a whole bag of apples and carrots,
Speaker 2: and then you only end up with this really small
Speaker 2: serving of juice.
Speaker 1: That's that's crazy.
Speaker 2: And while I was doing this diet, I have to
Speaker 2: say I felt really great, like energy wise and stuff.
Speaker 2: But it just wasn't sustainable, you know, as a single
Speaker 2: mom making like ten dollars an hour back in the day,
Speaker 2: so buying fruits and veggies constantly like was not in
Speaker 2: my budget. But yeah, I think people who do juice
Speaker 2: they enjoy it and they say, you know, they feel
Speaker 2: great doing it.
Speaker 1: Maybe it's just like you can do it as a supplement, yeah,
Speaker 1: like just have some juice.
Speaker 2: I mean, I could probably afford a juice now then
Speaker 2: I'm like a real adult.
Speaker 1: But yeah, even as real adults, we'll be like, we'll
Speaker 1: get all this good stuff like healthy foods, you know,
Speaker 1: nice fresh and we have all this you know, meats,
Speaker 1: and we just have all the good stuff. And then
Speaker 1: we'd be like, oh, fe cook it. Let's order out.
Speaker 1: And then we order out. That's terrible, some cisco food
Speaker 1: from wherever you get it, because that anymore, it doesn't
Speaker 1: matter from fast food to you know, casual fine dining.
Speaker 1: It's basically all the same food, just a little bit better,
Speaker 1: better or worse, and always leaves you feeling like what
Speaker 1: why did I eat that? Yeah, but I'll do it tonight.
Speaker 1: I want to order out now, like.
Speaker 2: A brick in your gut. Well, we're not.
Speaker 1: We're not.
Speaker 2: We're eating our groceries.
Speaker 1: This week and we end up throwing the vegetables out
Speaker 1: because we've ordered out for du We're not doing it, Okay.
Speaker 2: So after lunch, Larry and his lawyers were on the
Speaker 2: sidewalk like making their way into the courthouse, and a
Speaker 2: shot rang out. Larry saw Gene Reeves, his attorney, shot
Speaker 2: in the arm, and then suddenly Larry is hit. He
Speaker 2: felt a bullet enter his abdomen, and then a second
Speaker 2: bullet struck Larry. He's on the ground now. During this commotion,
Speaker 2: the shooter managed to escape.
Speaker 1: What in the world. But I mean it kind of
Speaker 1: makes sense because here you are in this small town
Speaker 1: courtroom over some you know, obscenity trial, which is you know,
Speaker 1: it's not violent crime or anything like that. I would
Speaker 1: say everyone was kind of back on their heels, you know,
Speaker 1: not never thinking that this type of violence might ring out.
Speaker 2: No, Larry was transported to the hospital. You know, he's
Speaker 2: kind of in and out of it at the time, fading,
Speaker 2: you know, conscious unconscious. So a forty five magnum bullets
Speaker 2: severed an artery in his abdomen. Larry lost a great
Speaker 2: deal of blood. He went into surgery and initially the
Speaker 2: outlook was not good. It was considered a miracle that
Speaker 2: Larry survived. Because of his diet, Larry had very little
Speaker 2: like on his stomach, which doctor said helped prevent an
Speaker 2: immediate infection. Oh, at the time of the shooting, if.
Speaker 1: He'd had like a full stomach, it would have it
Speaker 1: could have bled out on sideway. Oh wow.
Speaker 2: Now Althea is freaking out when she gets this news.
Speaker 2: She drops everything in Ohio rushes to Georgia. Althea needed
Speaker 2: to be by her husband's side. Larry was moved to
Speaker 2: an Atlanta hospital where he needed to undergo more surgeries.
Speaker 2: The shooting left Larry partially paralyzed with permanent spinal cord damage.
Speaker 2: He would count on a mobility device a wheelchair, for
Speaker 2: the rest of his life. Larry's attorney, Gene Reeves, was
Speaker 2: shot in the arm, but made a full recovery. Ruth
Speaker 2: Carter Stapleton visited Larry in the hospital. By now, Larry's
Speaker 2: beliefs were waning. He was in chronic pain. He described
Speaker 2: the pain as his legs being submerged in boiling water.
Speaker 2: Doctors didn't know what to do for the pain. All
Speaker 2: they could do was treat symptoms, which was just administering
Speaker 2: heavy doses of pain medication.
Speaker 1: Oh my gosh.
Speaker 2: And unfortunately Larry was told he it's been the rest
Speaker 2: of his life in chronic pain.
Speaker 1: Damn.
Speaker 2: Larry later said, quote, I wasn't interested in the kind
Speaker 2: of God that would let people suffer. So after six
Speaker 2: weeks in the hospital, Larry returned to Ohio to a
Speaker 2: rehabilitation center. But it didn't take long for Larry to say,
Speaker 2: fuck Ohio, I'm moving to Los Angeles.
Speaker 1: Oh And in the movie The.
Speaker 2: People Versus Larry Flint, there's a whole scene where he
Speaker 2: asks althea where can we go where they like perverts?
Speaker 2: And then the Hollywood sign flashes on the screen.
Speaker 1: Okay, yeah, that makes sense.
Speaker 2: Larry had spent years battling the haters in Ohio. Dylan,
Speaker 2: he was hashtag locally hated.
Speaker 1: Now did they ever catch the person who had tried
Speaker 1: to get into that this was an assassination attempt?
Speaker 2: Right, So, Larry's battling haters in Ohio, from the prosecutors
Speaker 2: to his snooty neighbors that looked down on him and
Speaker 2: his wife. He's looking for a chain, a place where
Speaker 2: people would accept him. And there is now a huge
Speaker 2: porn industry in Los Angeles, but at the time it
Speaker 2: was kind of this budding industry. The scene had left
Speaker 2: New York City and launched in LA And if you
Speaker 2: ever watched the HBO show The Deuce, it kind of
Speaker 2: tells the history of the porn industry and being moved
Speaker 2: from New York to La Okay in the seventies. Being
Speaker 2: rich and powerful and famous is enough to get respect
Speaker 2: in Los Angeles, so naturally, Larry fit In, these were
Speaker 2: not people who were interested in old money, new money pedigree.
Speaker 2: You if you're rich, you got some power, you're good
Speaker 2: to go in La Now. It was later revealed that
Speaker 2: the Lawrenceville shooter was a serial killer named Joseph Paul Franklin,
Speaker 2: and we covered his case a very long time ago,
Speaker 2: like a few years back. He was a militant white
Speaker 2: supremacist and a serial killer who shot Vernon Jordan. So
Speaker 2: from nineteen seventy seven to nineteen eighty, Franklin on a
Speaker 2: killing spree targeting Black and Jewish people. Franklin confessed to
Speaker 2: shooting Flint some years later, saying he was deeply offended
Speaker 2: by an interracial photo published in Hustler magazine. He said, quote,
Speaker 2: I saw that interracial couple having sex, and it just
Speaker 2: made me sick. I threw the magazine down and I thought,
Speaker 2: I'm gonna kill that guy.
Speaker 1: Oh my, imagine a pictures in a magazine making you this.
Speaker 2: Mask and you are the edge.
Speaker 1: It's ridiculous.
Speaker 2: You have a really weak constitution. If that's the kind
Speaker 2: of thing that's gonna get you that riled.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I know. It wasn't even a full on video,
Speaker 1: It's just pictures.
Speaker 2: Flint was convinced the shooting was part of a vast
Speaker 2: conspiracy involving the ultra right. He thought Franklin might have
Speaker 2: been subject to mk ultra. He publicly accused Congressman Larry
Speaker 2: MacDonald of being involved in this murder plot. However, evidence
Speaker 2: disproved this, and that is where we're going to impart two.
Speaker 2: We have a part three on Larry. Oh my god,
Speaker 2: there's a lot to the story. So I just want
Speaker 2: to make sure that we get all the details in
Speaker 2: and have a full understanding of Larry.
Speaker 1: When I seen that picture of that nick, a black
Speaker 1: man standing next to that nick a white woman, it
Speaker 1: made me go crazy in my head. I'm gonna kill somebody.
Speaker 2: I just don't get it.
Speaker 1: Jimmy, get to get the car out front. We're gonna
Speaker 1: go shoot Larry front.
Speaker 2: Why is this something that bothers people so much?
Speaker 1: Oh? Why do you care?
Speaker 2: That's I don't understand. Why do you care? It does
Speaker 2: not personally affect you.
Speaker 1: I've never understood that.
Speaker 2: I don't care what people do in the privacy of
Speaker 2: their bedroom if they're consenting adults.
Speaker 1: I honestly remember in the eighties being around Shelby, North Carolina,
Speaker 1: Cleveland County, shout out Cleveland County. Some people would say,
Speaker 1: home of the clan. I'm not shouting the clan out though,
Speaker 1: fuck them, but people it was like a thing like
Speaker 1: you would see an interracial cup in public, and like
Speaker 1: people would be like almost openly hostile, a hostile to
Speaker 1: them or talking shit about them as soon as they
Speaker 1: went around the corner. And I just never ever understood,
Speaker 1: even as a child, like why do you care who
Speaker 1: that person decides to be with.
Speaker 2: So my great uncle, so my nana, the cool truck driver.
Speaker 2: She had a brother, my great uncle, and he was married,
Speaker 2: had kids whatever. He actually worked at the paper mill
Speaker 2: Dillon where you worked where I used to work, right,
Speaker 2: So he worked there years and years ago, back when
Speaker 2: it was the wild West. You hear all the crazy stories.
Speaker 2: But he met and fell in love with a black woman,
Speaker 2: my aunt Mary. I love this woman like she is
Speaker 2: the sweetest woman, and I've always just adored her, like
Speaker 2: she you can ask for better people. So he meets her,
Speaker 2: they fall in love, they end up together, get married,
Speaker 2: he adopts her son. And the racism they experienced in
Speaker 2: like the late seventies and early eighties, even at the
Speaker 2: mill where they both worked, and they were very affected
Speaker 2: by their colleagues, but they started getting all this crazy shit,
Speaker 2: like people would hang nooses in their locker and write
Speaker 2: crazy shit on their locker doors and make comments and
Speaker 2: be like outright angry and hostile and vandalize their their property,
Speaker 2: like their home. And this went on for years and
Speaker 2: years up until you know, maybe like the mid eighties,
Speaker 2: and then finally people just lost interest. I guess or
Speaker 2: it wasn't a big deal. But I just never understood
Speaker 2: because I always, you know, being around them, they very
Speaker 2: much were in love. They were really happy couple, like
Speaker 2: they're still together all these years later, very supportive of
Speaker 2: each other. And I just never understood, like why does
Speaker 2: this make people so mad?
Speaker 1: It's very strange, it's.
Speaker 2: So weird, Like why can't you just love who you love?
Speaker 1: Right, that's right, Heather just loved me.
Speaker 2: I don't know about that.
Speaker 1: You make it hard. Nobody won't get mad if they
Speaker 1: see a naked deal and standing next.
Speaker 2: To you get mad?
Speaker 1: Now, they'd be like, you know what, I'm glad that boy.
Speaker 2: I wouldn't get mad because they'd be like, why should
Speaker 2: she get all that?
Speaker 1: No, they'd be like, I'm glad that failure always finally
Speaker 1: found somebody that loves him.
Speaker 2: What's he doing with that?
Speaker 1: Huh? I love it.
Speaker 2: They're like, you're the pretty one doing You're stupid.
Speaker 1: I'm not the pretty one.
Speaker 2: Everybody loves Dylan. I'm like, what's he doing with that
Speaker 2: old hateful sorce bitch.
Speaker 1: I'm I'm the hairy one now I know you're not. Yes,
Speaker 1: i am, dude.
Speaker 2: I don't know what it is, but my leg hair
Speaker 2: I have to shave like every couple of God, it's weird.
Speaker 1: All right. So thanks again to our newest Patreon supporters
Speaker 1: Lauren and Holly.
Speaker 2: Oh you wanted me to shelt them out again.
Speaker 1: She thought I didn't know. She thought I didn't know
Speaker 1: who they were. Thank you so much for your support.
Speaker 1: We hope you enjoyed the ad freeing extra content because
Speaker 1: there's a freaking ton of it over there on Patreon,
Speaker 1: so have fun digging through that.
Speaker 2: Don't forget to stop by our website now Murderspodcast dot com.
Speaker 2: We've been a lot of traffic over there, doing a
Speaker 2: lot of folks buying some of our new merch, some
Speaker 2: of our new merch designs. We have some cute T shirts, shorts.
Speaker 1: I want to shout out, shout out Sanna. She's bought
Speaker 1: our merch very early on. She's a huge supporter of
Speaker 1: the podcast and one of our good friends. And thank
Speaker 1: you so much. And thanks to everyone who's took a
Speaker 1: stop over there and seen the Heather. That's all Heather,
Speaker 1: obviously her incredible funny designs. She does a great job
Speaker 1: there at the merch store. I love it. Thanks Dylan,
Speaker 1: You're welcome. You're doing good. Thank you, you're doing good job.
Speaker 2: I know I have a mount Murders mug, and I
Speaker 2: enjoy drinking my morning coffee out of this smug, leaving
Speaker 2: it randomly somewhere in the house and like where did
Speaker 2: I forget my coffee and then finding it like six
Speaker 2: hours later.
Speaker 1: It's usually in the microwave where you've heated it up
Speaker 1: like four times. Yeah, over like four hours.
Speaker 2: Look, I get distracted.
Speaker 1: That's how someone with ADHD drinks coffee.
Speaker 2: I get so distracted.
Speaker 1: All right, So until next time, we hope every everyone
Speaker 1: has a great time, have a great day. Well, I've
Speaker 1: been on top of it today.
Speaker 2: Yeah, we hope everybody has a great week. Don't forget
Speaker 2: to check out some of those Dark Cast Network podcasts.
Speaker 2: Stop by our website, maybe you will find some merch
Speaker 2: that tickles your fancy. And we will be back with
Speaker 2: the midweek. And we have part three of Larry Flint
Speaker 2: that we will be dropping here in a couple of
Speaker 2: days as well.
Speaker 1: Alrighty bye, Dylan, Bye.