WEBVTT 1 00:00:00.640 --> 00:00:03.560 Dark Cast Network indie pods. 2 00:00:03.240 --> 00:00:08.759 With the Dark Side. Hi. 3 00:00:08.880 --> 00:00:10.759 I'm Ashley, a true crime fanatic. 4 00:00:11.039 --> 00:00:13.240 I'm Dan, I don't know anything about true crime. 5 00:00:13.359 --> 00:00:16.440 Together, we host fuck That, a true crime podcast that 6 00:00:16.480 --> 00:00:19.800 covers cases that highlight important topics that are often overlooked, 7 00:00:20.000 --> 00:00:24.640 such as wrongful convictions, domestic violence, and social inequities, sprinkled 8 00:00:24.640 --> 00:00:27.320 in with the occasional case with spooky themes. If you 9 00:00:27.320 --> 00:00:30.120 are looking for your next true crime fix delivered candidly 10 00:00:30.239 --> 00:00:32.880 with a hint of sarcasm, you can listen and subscribe 11 00:00:32.920 --> 00:00:35.679 to bi weekly episodes of Fuck That wherever you listen 12 00:00:35.719 --> 00:00:38.119 to your podcasts, and don't forget to give us a 13 00:00:38.159 --> 00:00:41.320 follow on Facebook and Twitter, at f That Pod and 14 00:00:41.840 --> 00:00:45.359 at f that Underscore Pod on Instagram. 15 00:00:45.719 --> 00:00:50.840 Hey y'all, welcome back to Maltain Murders. I'm Heather, I'm Dylan. 16 00:00:50.960 --> 00:00:51.719 Hello Dylan. 17 00:00:52.600 --> 00:00:56.560 Hello, how are you today? I am doing terrific? 18 00:00:56.719 --> 00:00:59.960 You are? Oh well, that is wonderful, Dylan, I am excited. 19 00:01:00.079 --> 00:01:03.840 Did we have Larry Flint Part two to get into today? 20 00:01:04.159 --> 00:01:04.879 Cannot wait. 21 00:01:05.239 --> 00:01:08.599 We're a little delayed as usual, but before we get started, 22 00:01:08.799 --> 00:01:11.280 wanted to give a big shout out to our newest patrons, 23 00:01:11.439 --> 00:01:15.000 Holly and Lauren. What shout out to Holly and Lauren. 24 00:01:15.079 --> 00:01:17.560 They are responsible for everything that it's said today. 25 00:01:18.000 --> 00:01:20.879 Thank you so much for your support over at the patreoon. 26 00:01:21.040 --> 00:01:24.239 Uh so you're sponsoring Dylan's mouth right now. 27 00:01:24.439 --> 00:01:27.799 Yeah, yeah, you're holding my mouth up. Oh goodness, you're 28 00:01:27.840 --> 00:01:29.040 supporting this mouth. 29 00:01:29.760 --> 00:01:33.280 If you guys are looking for some wonderful podcasts, check 30 00:01:33.280 --> 00:01:37.640 out It's summer. Maybe you're taking a road trip, flying somewhere. 31 00:01:37.760 --> 00:01:40.760 You need something to listen to before your summer vacation, 32 00:01:40.959 --> 00:01:42.239 or while you're on summer. 33 00:01:42.000 --> 00:01:44.159 Vacation, or just to drown the kids out. 34 00:01:44.799 --> 00:01:46.799 Yes, that's what I do, Dylan. I go to the 35 00:01:46.799 --> 00:01:50.719 swimming pool. I pop in my waterproof earbuds that you 36 00:01:50.840 --> 00:01:53.519 bought me. Wonderful gift, by the way, Oh, one of 37 00:01:53.560 --> 00:01:56.319 the best gifts you've ever given me. I get into 38 00:01:56.400 --> 00:02:01.359 the pool, I'm floating, I'm relaxing, soaking it up, soaking 39 00:02:01.439 --> 00:02:04.040 up the rays, and I'm tuning out all the screaming 40 00:02:04.120 --> 00:02:05.560 kids that are jumping in around me. 41 00:02:05.760 --> 00:02:09.199 Yeah. Yeah, you just find a good podcast like Mountain Murders. 42 00:02:09.240 --> 00:02:11.680 I do. I listen to some of the dark Cast 43 00:02:12.319 --> 00:02:16.199 Network podcasts stilling We've got the Final Trace. I highly 44 00:02:16.240 --> 00:02:22.000 recommend Rainbow Crimes, True Crimes of the LGBTQ podcast. CJ 45 00:02:22.080 --> 00:02:26.840 does an excellent job murdering scripted Stop who does that? 46 00:02:26.879 --> 00:02:28.000 With Jackie and Jenna. 47 00:02:28.240 --> 00:02:28.879 That's a good one. 48 00:02:28.960 --> 00:02:33.800 Love and Murder Fuck that a true crime podcast Conspiring 49 00:02:33.879 --> 00:02:36.800 to Argue, which is also an interesting podcast. You know, 50 00:02:36.919 --> 00:02:39.919 we love to state our opinions. I like to listen 51 00:02:39.960 --> 00:02:43.520 to other podcasters with strong opinions, going back and forth 52 00:02:43.560 --> 00:02:45.719 a bit debating. It's always fun. 53 00:02:45.800 --> 00:02:47.840 There's nothing like a good spirited debate. 54 00:02:48.240 --> 00:02:51.400 Psychology of the Strange is another excellent podcast if you 55 00:02:51.439 --> 00:02:55.840 were into hearing stories about folklore, which I love some 56 00:02:55.919 --> 00:02:59.639 good folklore stories. Of course, you can't be Appalachian and 57 00:02:59.639 --> 00:03:03.639 not love some good folk tales, right. I'm also discussing 58 00:03:03.719 --> 00:03:06.479 fear some of the dark psychology. We get into a 59 00:03:06.479 --> 00:03:08.680 little bit of that here, but she definitely covers more 60 00:03:08.680 --> 00:03:12.400 of that and then shout out to the family Plot podcast. 61 00:03:13.360 --> 00:03:19.120 Nice Welcome home, so many check out darkcastnetwork dot com 62 00:03:19.159 --> 00:03:23.560 to find out more about these awesome indie podcasts doing. 63 00:03:23.759 --> 00:03:26.159 Yeah, it really is a great place to find your 64 00:03:26.199 --> 00:03:28.759 little indie pods, you know, the little pods that could 65 00:03:29.400 --> 00:03:32.280 and you know they're done with a love and passion 66 00:03:32.879 --> 00:03:33.800 more than anything. 67 00:03:34.000 --> 00:03:36.000 Some of these indie pods are doing great things, so 68 00:03:36.039 --> 00:03:37.520 you don't want to miss out. You want to make 69 00:03:37.520 --> 00:03:39.639 sure you check out some of those again for your 70 00:03:39.759 --> 00:03:45.759 listening content this summer, so many summer hours for podcasts. 71 00:03:45.400 --> 00:03:46.599 It's true. I love it. 72 00:03:47.360 --> 00:03:49.120 Oh my god, I'm doing all summer. I've been listening 73 00:03:49.120 --> 00:03:52.719 to audiobooks and podcasts and catching up, delved into some 74 00:03:52.800 --> 00:03:56.479 crazy cases, some some pods. I've been listening to cases 75 00:03:56.479 --> 00:03:57.479 I've never heard before. 76 00:03:57.879 --> 00:03:58.800 Which is the best? 77 00:03:59.000 --> 00:04:03.599 Yeah, totally, Dylan, are you ready to discuss Larry Flint? Today? 78 00:04:03.680 --> 00:04:06.840 We have part two of Larry's story and it just 79 00:04:07.319 --> 00:04:08.919 keeps getting weirder. 80 00:04:10.039 --> 00:04:12.840 I must say, since Heather draft we did part one, 81 00:04:13.000 --> 00:04:15.639 I've done a lot of research with the you know, 82 00:04:15.840 --> 00:04:19.199 stuff that Larry created and worked. So, yeah, if you 83 00:04:19.240 --> 00:04:20.360 need to know anything. 84 00:04:20.120 --> 00:04:21.360 Just what what does that mean? 85 00:04:21.959 --> 00:04:22.680 It's a joe. 86 00:04:22.759 --> 00:04:24.199 You've been doing your own research. 87 00:04:24.319 --> 00:04:26.199 Yeah, I've been looking at hustlers. 88 00:04:26.279 --> 00:04:29.360 You've been going down the rabbit hole Butler magazine. 89 00:04:28.800 --> 00:04:31.439 But only if they're a doll geared in like really 90 00:04:31.480 --> 00:04:36.360 old stickies and like from behind someone's you know garage. Yeah, 91 00:04:36.439 --> 00:04:38.879 out in the garage behind the little mini behind. 92 00:04:38.560 --> 00:04:40.480 The refrigerator for seventy years. 93 00:04:40.560 --> 00:04:42.680 Yeah. Yeah, they have to be a little bit moist. 94 00:04:43.399 --> 00:04:46.240 Do you remember finding these kind of nooti magas when 95 00:04:46.279 --> 00:04:48.680 you were a kid. Did you ever stumble across a 96 00:04:49.199 --> 00:04:50.800 big collection by chance? 97 00:04:51.360 --> 00:04:55.360 Uh? No, I did not. My father decided he didn't 98 00:04:55.399 --> 00:04:58.439 want to live where we did, so he wasn't around. 99 00:04:58.480 --> 00:05:00.800 So you know, there was wasn't that. I didn't ever 100 00:05:00.839 --> 00:05:04.160 find my mom's nudi mags shout out, Mom, you hit him? Well, 101 00:05:04.199 --> 00:05:07.920 I guess, but no, I literally never found a stash. 102 00:05:08.079 --> 00:05:10.639 We know that your mom. She is like an intellectual. 103 00:05:10.759 --> 00:05:12.959 She was in the Playboy for the articles. 104 00:05:13.079 --> 00:05:14.720 Oh yeah, definitely. 105 00:05:14.920 --> 00:05:18.439 I had an uncle, had a roundy uncle, and he 106 00:05:18.519 --> 00:05:20.759 had like this little well. He had a piece of 107 00:05:20.800 --> 00:05:25.800 property behind my grandma's house, but for years it was empty, 108 00:05:25.839 --> 00:05:28.680 and he had like this little cabin type of building 109 00:05:28.759 --> 00:05:31.120 that he had built on the property right where he 110 00:05:31.120 --> 00:05:33.879 would hang out sometimes. I guess you could say, when he. 111 00:05:33.879 --> 00:05:35.160 Didn't have anywhere else to go. 112 00:05:35.480 --> 00:05:38.319 Right, Yeah, maybe because it was like a party cabin 113 00:05:38.439 --> 00:05:41.120 type of thing. So my cousin and his daughter, she 114 00:05:41.279 --> 00:05:42.759 was a couple years younger than me. You know, we 115 00:05:42.800 --> 00:05:45.920 would always be like, oh, the playhouse for us, So 116 00:05:45.959 --> 00:05:47.959 we would go kind of hang out in there, right, 117 00:05:48.000 --> 00:05:50.600 but it was you know, it was a party pad. 118 00:05:50.680 --> 00:05:52.399 So you might find some like beer cans in the 119 00:05:52.399 --> 00:05:55.519 corner or whatever. But I remember he had a stash 120 00:05:55.600 --> 00:05:59.480 of like Playboy and Penthouse and Hustler. Okay, so I 121 00:05:59.480 --> 00:06:02.319 think my first introduction was like maybe eight nine, ten 122 00:06:02.439 --> 00:06:03.199 somewhere in there. 123 00:06:03.800 --> 00:06:05.759 So and you were looking through them, well, yeah, I 124 00:06:05.800 --> 00:06:06.600 was like what is this? 125 00:06:07.199 --> 00:06:10.720 But I remember thinking, like, not even thinking much about 126 00:06:10.800 --> 00:06:13.560 the nudity, but just being like, these women are so 127 00:06:13.639 --> 00:06:17.160 glamorous because they were all so beautiful, right, and had 128 00:06:17.199 --> 00:06:19.480 like perfect hair and tans and a. 129 00:06:19.439 --> 00:06:21.920 Little bit of fashion going on there. Yeah, the clothes 130 00:06:21.959 --> 00:06:24.199 that were taking all well you know. 131 00:06:24.160 --> 00:06:27.199 The pearls with the big hair or whatever. And in 132 00:06:27.240 --> 00:06:29.079 my like eight nine year old brain, I was like, 133 00:06:29.120 --> 00:06:30.360 these women are glamorous. 134 00:06:30.360 --> 00:06:32.240 This is like glamor, right, these. 135 00:06:32.079 --> 00:06:35.839 Women are very glamorous. Oh and I can see their titties, 136 00:06:35.839 --> 00:06:38.720 but look they're glamorous, right. Yeah. 137 00:06:38.839 --> 00:06:41.240 No, It's funny because you know, you know, I certainly 138 00:06:41.240 --> 00:06:44.399 had some friends who found you know, access here and 139 00:06:44.439 --> 00:06:48.680 there and it's all very It's almost comical to think 140 00:06:48.680 --> 00:06:53.560 about how hush hush and taboo it felt just to 141 00:06:53.680 --> 00:06:56.480 you know, come across something like that as a as 142 00:06:56.480 --> 00:06:59.920 a child or a young person. And nowadays it's just 143 00:07:00.120 --> 00:07:04.759 so everything is just so raw and in your face. 144 00:07:05.839 --> 00:07:08.720 It's almost like it's lost a luster to a degree, 145 00:07:08.839 --> 00:07:09.439 you know what I mean. 146 00:07:09.480 --> 00:07:12.120 Well, I guess there's something about having that innocence of 147 00:07:12.120 --> 00:07:14.920 being a young person or being kind of naive about 148 00:07:14.959 --> 00:07:16.879 these things, and then you stumble upon like maybe your 149 00:07:16.879 --> 00:07:19.879 first like a dirty magazine or like a movie like 150 00:07:19.920 --> 00:07:22.519 a VHS, and you get some weird cover and you're like, 151 00:07:22.639 --> 00:07:25.959 what versus it's just so accessible today. 152 00:07:26.480 --> 00:07:28.439 Well, you know, and they would have the rack and 153 00:07:28.519 --> 00:07:31.519 like convenience stores and stuff that had the it was 154 00:07:31.560 --> 00:07:34.079 like behind right, it was off to the side or 155 00:07:34.199 --> 00:07:37.040 some in a corner and it would be covered and 156 00:07:37.240 --> 00:07:39.240 all that they would be wrapped in plasts. I would just. 157 00:07:39.199 --> 00:07:41.279 See like the top, you get the name of the 158 00:07:41.319 --> 00:07:42.199 magazine or something. 159 00:07:42.519 --> 00:07:44.879 Yeah, and I always saw it. And then you see 160 00:07:44.920 --> 00:07:47.399 some guy or whatever over there like kind of looking 161 00:07:47.439 --> 00:07:50.240 through them, and you're like, oh, cayves of creep, you know. 162 00:07:50.879 --> 00:07:53.079 Or you would have like the video store, the VHS 163 00:07:53.079 --> 00:07:55.120 store where you would go rimped a movie and they 164 00:07:55.199 --> 00:07:56.120 might have a back room. 165 00:07:56.839 --> 00:07:59.759 I wanted to go in that back room you did, 166 00:08:00.199 --> 00:08:02.519 just because you're telling me I can't, Like, I want 167 00:08:02.560 --> 00:08:04.160 to go through that dirty curtain. 168 00:08:05.879 --> 00:08:10.120 The Dirty Curtain, dude, it's a great band name, the 169 00:08:10.160 --> 00:08:10.879 Dirty Curtain. 170 00:08:11.040 --> 00:08:13.120 Yeah, welcome the Dirty Curtains. 171 00:08:13.519 --> 00:08:16.319 Yeah, they're opening up at Muddy Roots this year. Literally, 172 00:08:16.600 --> 00:08:20.240 are you ready to get into today's episode, Dylan? We 173 00:08:20.279 --> 00:08:22.279 have a lot to talk about, and like I said, 174 00:08:22.319 --> 00:08:26.240 it just keeps getting weirder. Larry has had and you 175 00:08:26.279 --> 00:08:29.199 know rip Larry passed away a few years ago, but 176 00:08:29.279 --> 00:08:31.240 Larry has had a very interesting life. 177 00:08:31.600 --> 00:08:34.639 Well it's certainly seemed that way in his early life 178 00:08:34.639 --> 00:08:36.799 that you described in part one. So let's just dive 179 00:08:36.840 --> 00:08:37.519 straight into. 180 00:08:37.360 --> 00:08:40.440 Part two because it continues to get stranger as the 181 00:08:40.519 --> 00:08:43.440 years passed. So last episode we covered Larry Flint's early 182 00:08:43.559 --> 00:08:46.799 success and rise to fame. Larry is a millionaire now, 183 00:08:46.879 --> 00:08:49.240 he's living in a wealthy enclave in Ohio and has 184 00:08:49.240 --> 00:08:52.960 faced his first trial for obscenity and organized crime. His 185 00:08:53.039 --> 00:08:57.039 brother Jimmy and Althea and Hustler's cove vice president Alan 186 00:08:57.159 --> 00:09:00.639 Van Shake were arresting charged alongside Larry. As we mentioned 187 00:09:00.679 --> 00:09:04.039 last episode. Now, in nineteen seventy three, the Supreme Court's 188 00:09:04.240 --> 00:09:08.799 landmark ruling in Miller versus California allowed local communities to 189 00:09:08.840 --> 00:09:12.240 apply their own laws regarding obscenity. 190 00:09:12.679 --> 00:09:16.039 And I could imagine that's when things really kind of 191 00:09:16.080 --> 00:09:18.360 get hay go hey, hey, why right? 192 00:09:18.639 --> 00:09:21.279 I forgot to mention in the last episode that Larry 193 00:09:21.360 --> 00:09:26.120 had already been involved with the prosecutor Simon Lace Junior. 194 00:09:26.559 --> 00:09:28.960 Back in nineteen seventy two, Larry was caught in the 195 00:09:29.000 --> 00:09:31.759 middle of a bar fight and during the fight a 196 00:09:31.799 --> 00:09:36.240 gun had gone off. After this discharge, Larry consoled a 197 00:09:36.279 --> 00:09:39.600 woman who was there and had witnessed this fight and 198 00:09:39.679 --> 00:09:44.159 the gun. She was upset. I mean, I think most 199 00:09:44.159 --> 00:09:45.759 of us would be if we were in a bar 200 00:09:45.879 --> 00:09:49.679 that ended with some gunfire, right, Yeah. So she put 201 00:09:49.679 --> 00:09:52.879 her head down on Larry's lap and she's just crying 202 00:09:52.919 --> 00:09:55.399 and he's comforting her. She has her head in his lap, 203 00:09:56.120 --> 00:09:59.159 and he ends up being charged with firing the gun, 204 00:09:59.279 --> 00:10:02.279 even though he did not fire the weapon, and Simon 205 00:10:02.360 --> 00:10:05.320 Lace tried to charge Larry with sodomy, alleging that this 206 00:10:05.360 --> 00:10:08.320 woman wasn't crying in his lap, but was instead giving 207 00:10:08.399 --> 00:10:10.120 Larry quote Felucio. 208 00:10:11.720 --> 00:10:14.879 Okay, well that sound that seems ridiculous. It's right. 209 00:10:15.480 --> 00:10:20.000 This guy seems like he's really obsessed with perversion. 210 00:10:20.519 --> 00:10:23.679 Well, and also seems like he has something against Larry. Right, 211 00:10:24.240 --> 00:10:26.799 I mean, he didn't shoot the gun, but he's getting 212 00:10:26.799 --> 00:10:28.080 you know, he's catching that charge. 213 00:10:28.200 --> 00:10:30.840 Why is that any first thought though, Like, it can't 214 00:10:30.879 --> 00:10:33.720 be that Larry's consoling this woman. It automatically has to 215 00:10:33.720 --> 00:10:36.759 be something sexual. See that lets me know this is 216 00:10:36.799 --> 00:10:38.919 all more about Simon than it is Larry. 217 00:10:39.279 --> 00:10:42.600 Well, so this thing just happened, this you know, fight 218 00:10:42.799 --> 00:10:45.000 and a gun, and everybody's kind of all to hell. 219 00:10:45.480 --> 00:10:48.080 And but who in the world would. 220 00:10:47.799 --> 00:10:50.399 Be like, Hey, yeah, I'm really turned on by all this. 221 00:10:50.600 --> 00:10:51.720 I'm very aroused. 222 00:10:51.879 --> 00:10:53.679 I bet I know what'll make you feel better. 223 00:10:53.759 --> 00:10:55.399 I can't wait to get into your pants. 224 00:10:55.799 --> 00:10:57.440 I mean, that's crazy pull it out. 225 00:10:57.639 --> 00:11:01.759 Nobody would do that, well, I'm I mean maybe most people. 226 00:11:01.799 --> 00:11:04.559 I'm not going to say nobody's gonna do that, because 227 00:11:04.559 --> 00:11:08.159 in today's world, I think there will always be somebody 228 00:11:08.200 --> 00:11:11.240 who will do that. You know what I'm saying, Simon 229 00:11:11.320 --> 00:11:14.320 Lee's Junior, the ultra conservative prosecutor whose mission was to 230 00:11:14.320 --> 00:11:18.559 bring down pornography, adult bookstores, movie theaters, et cetera, had 231 00:11:18.600 --> 00:11:21.519 a very close relationship with a man named Charles Keating. 232 00:11:22.159 --> 00:11:25.519 Keating had been key to getting Lays elected back in 233 00:11:25.600 --> 00:11:30.720 nineteen seventy one. Keating's brother ran the Cincinnati Inquirer, a 234 00:11:30.759 --> 00:11:34.360 local newspaper. Now, during this time, the press was constantly 235 00:11:34.399 --> 00:11:38.080 reporting on Larry, painting him as this evil smut peddler 236 00:11:38.480 --> 00:11:42.039 who was single handedly responsible for all the crimes in 237 00:11:42.080 --> 00:11:43.080 the state of Ohio. 238 00:11:44.200 --> 00:11:46.240 Okay, every criminal. 239 00:11:45.840 --> 00:11:51.240 Activity could be traced back to Larry and his pornography industry. 240 00:11:51.639 --> 00:11:55.720 So basically he was the kingpin, Yes, the puppet master, 241 00:11:55.840 --> 00:11:58.120 controlling all crime in Ohio. 242 00:11:58.279 --> 00:12:01.840 You robbed a bank, it must be Hustler magazine. Well, 243 00:12:02.159 --> 00:12:05.279 instead of being angry at the press, Larry found it flattering. 244 00:12:05.320 --> 00:12:08.600 I mean, his attitude was definitely that free press, no 245 00:12:08.639 --> 00:12:11.639 matter how positive or negative, is still free press. 246 00:12:11.960 --> 00:12:14.080 Well it's true, I mean, you can't buy this type 247 00:12:14.120 --> 00:12:15.039 of coverage, right. 248 00:12:15.120 --> 00:12:17.679 The focus on him was almost, like I said, flattering. 249 00:12:18.000 --> 00:12:20.919 Larry had no problem being the center of attention. And 250 00:12:20.960 --> 00:12:24.000 so Larry, I mean, he found it amusing. Like, oh, 251 00:12:24.200 --> 00:12:26.600 you guys are all about little old me. You want 252 00:12:26.600 --> 00:12:28.480 to make little old me famous? Okay. 253 00:12:28.879 --> 00:12:31.720 Well, and what's funny is that this is in essence 254 00:12:31.759 --> 00:12:35.159 of pressure campaign they're trying to wage against Larry to 255 00:12:35.440 --> 00:12:37.919 you know, and some people it would work. They don't 256 00:12:37.960 --> 00:12:40.120 want to be talked about. They don't want to be 257 00:12:40.120 --> 00:12:41.879 in the news or in newspapers. 258 00:12:41.879 --> 00:12:45.559 They don't want their reputations slander dragged through the mud, 259 00:12:46.200 --> 00:12:50.240 business aired, their personal you know, life aired out there. 260 00:12:50.240 --> 00:12:51.360 But Larry just doesn't care. 261 00:12:51.759 --> 00:12:54.200 And yeah, for a guy like Larry, he's like, gosh, 262 00:12:54.240 --> 00:12:56.559 every day if he's on the you know, front page, 263 00:12:56.679 --> 00:12:58.039 it's it's good for him. Right. 264 00:12:58.480 --> 00:13:01.440 With a Supreme Court ruling, now the local authorities have 265 00:13:01.519 --> 00:13:05.320 the right to determine what is obscene, like two people 266 00:13:05.360 --> 00:13:09.720 having sex obscene? Oh god, it could be a number 267 00:13:09.799 --> 00:13:13.720 of things, so gross. Miller versus California was one of 268 00:13:13.720 --> 00:13:16.720 the most important First Amendment cases because it sought to 269 00:13:16.799 --> 00:13:21.399 answer a deceptively simple question, what is obscenity? The Supreme 270 00:13:21.440 --> 00:13:24.440 Court held that obscenity is not protected by the First Amendment, 271 00:13:24.759 --> 00:13:28.840 but defining the term obscenity has proven to be extremely difficult. 272 00:13:29.440 --> 00:13:34.279 The case involved Marvin Miller, who mailed unsolicited brochures advertising 273 00:13:34.360 --> 00:13:38.559 sexually explicit books and films. A restaurant owner who received 274 00:13:38.600 --> 00:13:42.799 one complained, and Miller was convicted under California's obscenity laws. 275 00:13:43.159 --> 00:13:45.600 The Supreme Court used the case to create a new 276 00:13:45.639 --> 00:13:50.600 standard for determining what counts as legally obscene. They developed 277 00:13:50.919 --> 00:13:55.240 a three part test the court called the Miller Test. Oh, 278 00:13:56.039 --> 00:14:00.080 material is legally obscene only if all three of the 279 00:14:00.440 --> 00:14:06.919 are true. First, the average person applying contemporary community standards 280 00:14:07.159 --> 00:14:11.159 would find that the work appeals to a prurient, meaning, morbid, 281 00:14:11.320 --> 00:14:13.120 or unhealthy interest in sex. 282 00:14:13.679 --> 00:14:14.440 Oh. 283 00:14:14.879 --> 00:14:19.919 Two, the work depicts sexual conduct in a patently offensive way, 284 00:14:20.240 --> 00:14:22.519 as specifically defined by state law. 285 00:14:24.000 --> 00:14:27.720 That's still leaving a lot of room for a subjective 286 00:14:28.080 --> 00:14:30.919 or objective. I don't know what the right word is there, but. 287 00:14:30.919 --> 00:14:33.559 Yeah, I mean, well it's subjective. Objective is like fair 288 00:14:33.679 --> 00:14:37.919 Fax true, Okay, So yeah, I mean one subjective is 289 00:14:38.000 --> 00:14:39.360 like opinion interpretation. 290 00:14:40.159 --> 00:14:44.159 One person's this grosses me out? Is another person I 291 00:14:44.200 --> 00:14:47.399 found this very appealing. Yeah, I mean so, yeah, it's 292 00:14:47.440 --> 00:14:48.639 so tricky. 293 00:14:49.399 --> 00:14:53.000 Number three, Taken as a whole, the work lacks serious literary, 294 00:14:53.159 --> 00:14:57.679 artistic political or scientific value. If even one of these 295 00:14:57.720 --> 00:15:01.919 elements is missing, the material cannot legal be classified as obscene. 296 00:15:02.360 --> 00:15:05.919 Oh so that's why sometimes in pornos they wear lab codes. 297 00:15:07.159 --> 00:15:09.639 Okay, it makes total sense, now do they really? 298 00:15:10.000 --> 00:15:13.360 Yeah, like we're going to do an experiment. You know, 299 00:15:13.559 --> 00:15:14.639 what have you been watching? 300 00:15:15.960 --> 00:15:18.879 Why is this a slippery slope? Well, the biggest criticism 301 00:15:18.919 --> 00:15:22.000 is that obscenity isn't an objective concept like fraud or theft. 302 00:15:22.200 --> 00:15:26.600 It depends heavily on culture values and personal judgment. Community 303 00:15:26.679 --> 00:15:32.440 standards vary, Like what might be considered acceptable in New 304 00:15:32.519 --> 00:15:38.399 York City could be considered obscene in a small rural community. 305 00:15:37.519 --> 00:15:41.000 Right, and that is the problem. Right. But I mean, 306 00:15:41.080 --> 00:15:47.080 in a way, you could argue this allows each community 307 00:15:47.360 --> 00:15:52.240 to craft their definition of obscenity to what fits the 308 00:15:53.000 --> 00:15:55.200 majority of their population. 309 00:15:55.519 --> 00:15:59.399 Right. And that's why the Supreme Court essentially handed back 310 00:15:59.519 --> 00:16:01.879 with this case of Miller versus California. 311 00:16:02.039 --> 00:16:06.039 But what's the problem in something like that, I think 312 00:16:06.200 --> 00:16:10.679 is because it does lead to legal issues, is that 313 00:16:10.919 --> 00:16:14.919 people can they can use it against people. 314 00:16:14.919 --> 00:16:17.360 Right, And that's why we're discussing how this is a 315 00:16:17.399 --> 00:16:21.679 slippery slope. Dalan Critics argue that constitutional rights should not 316 00:16:21.759 --> 00:16:25.080 be changed dramatically based on zip code, and I agree 317 00:16:25.080 --> 00:16:25.360 with that. 318 00:16:25.840 --> 00:16:28.639 Yeah, I think you do need a national standard when 319 00:16:28.679 --> 00:16:30.080 it comes to something like that. 320 00:16:30.279 --> 00:16:33.559 You must consider that community standards change over time. You know, 321 00:16:33.639 --> 00:16:37.279 material once considered shocking often becomes mainstream. Some of these 322 00:16:37.320 --> 00:16:43.960 examples include James Joyce's Ulysses, D. H. Lawrence's Lady Chatterley's Lover, 323 00:16:44.440 --> 00:16:47.600 and many films now that are shown on television. If 324 00:16:47.639 --> 00:16:52.320 standards evolve, something banned today might be protected tomorrow. Also, 325 00:16:52.639 --> 00:16:56.519 artistic value is subjective. Suppose to people view the same 326 00:16:56.600 --> 00:17:00.000 piece of artwork and one sees pornography and the other 327 00:17:00.240 --> 00:17:06.319 sees social commentary, artistic expression, or psychological exploration. So who 328 00:17:06.359 --> 00:17:10.680 decides the Miller test says, juries may decide some questions, 329 00:17:11.000 --> 00:17:15.400 while the quote serious value prong is evaluated more objectively 330 00:17:15.480 --> 00:17:20.039 by courts. But even so, disagreement is common. And as 331 00:17:20.079 --> 00:17:23.720 you mentioned before, this could be used maybe to abuse. 332 00:17:24.960 --> 00:17:27.319 Certain people, or it could be weaponiz right. 333 00:17:27.680 --> 00:17:30.119 Yeah, well, that's part of the discussion as well, is 334 00:17:30.160 --> 00:17:33.079 that governments can abuse vague standards. This is where our 335 00:17:33.119 --> 00:17:37.160 First Amendment advocates become concerned because history shows that governments 336 00:17:37.160 --> 00:17:41.319 have labeled many controversial works as obscene simply because they 337 00:17:41.440 --> 00:17:46.480 challenged prevailing beliefs, like, for example, authorities have attempted to 338 00:17:46.519 --> 00:17:53.480 suppress LGBTQ literature, feminist writing, birth control information works discussing 339 00:17:53.519 --> 00:17:58.359 interracial relationships, and also some avant garde art. If obscenity 340 00:17:58.400 --> 00:18:01.599 becomes whatever offends them a majority, it risks becoming a 341 00:18:01.640 --> 00:18:05.680 tool for censorship rather than a narrow exception to free speech. 342 00:18:06.559 --> 00:18:09.240 And see, you know, I think sometimes we get lost 343 00:18:09.240 --> 00:18:12.680 in the term of a the government, right, the government 344 00:18:13.119 --> 00:18:16.519 almost like this faithless entity, but it's just made up 345 00:18:16.559 --> 00:18:19.880 of people, right, They're the people at the top of 346 00:18:19.920 --> 00:18:24.240 the system, wielding the levers of power. And I think 347 00:18:24.240 --> 00:18:29.680 inherently people are flawed in the ways that they that 348 00:18:29.759 --> 00:18:32.680 can go to their head, right, or they could want 349 00:18:32.720 --> 00:18:36.039 to destroy someone for some personal reason, or I mean 350 00:18:36.119 --> 00:18:39.480 just all these problems with something like that. And the government, 351 00:18:39.599 --> 00:18:42.920 you know, is almost impossible to fight, right, even on 352 00:18:42.960 --> 00:18:46.599 a small scale in your local area. You know, I've 353 00:18:46.599 --> 00:18:49.119 always heard all my life you can't fight city hall, 354 00:18:49.440 --> 00:18:52.880 right when it comes to something like utilities or something 355 00:18:52.920 --> 00:18:55.559 you AI data centers, AI data centers are going to 356 00:18:55.640 --> 00:18:58.559 do them, whether you want them or not, and just 357 00:18:58.720 --> 00:19:03.000 anything like that is almost impossible to win because the 358 00:19:03.079 --> 00:19:06.400 system that you're going to turn to for help is 359 00:19:06.519 --> 00:19:10.079 that same system, right, I mean, it's just it's very strange. 360 00:19:10.119 --> 00:19:12.680 And that's why when you have that's why there needs 361 00:19:12.680 --> 00:19:17.279 to be clarity in laws and things like that, because 362 00:19:17.319 --> 00:19:24.960 they're room for subjective ideas is where the problem arises. Right. 363 00:19:25.119 --> 00:19:29.279 And then another problem is that once one in one instance, 364 00:19:29.319 --> 00:19:31.599 you may be like, yes, that is obscene, Our kids 365 00:19:31.680 --> 00:19:33.960 need to be protected, the public needs to be protected. 366 00:19:34.359 --> 00:19:37.359 But then again, those same laws could be applied to 367 00:19:37.400 --> 00:19:40.359 something that you don't find obscene at all and that 368 00:19:40.480 --> 00:19:43.839 you agree with, and now it's being yeah, I mean, 369 00:19:43.880 --> 00:19:45.279 what do you do? Well? 370 00:19:45.319 --> 00:19:47.160 A lot of people might be asking like why did 371 00:19:47.160 --> 00:19:50.440 the Core allow subjectivity? But the Core believed a rigid 372 00:19:50.559 --> 00:19:55.160 national definition was impossible. Judge Warren e Berger wrote that 373 00:19:55.240 --> 00:19:58.839 local communities should have some ability to decide what they 374 00:19:58.839 --> 00:20:02.559 find acceptable stead of imposing the standards of the most 375 00:20:02.640 --> 00:20:06.279 permissive areas on the entire country. So, in other words, 376 00:20:06.400 --> 00:20:10.759 the Court accepted some subjectivity because it viewed obscenity as 377 00:20:10.839 --> 00:20:16.400 deeply tied to local moral judgments. Many constitutional scholars argue 378 00:20:16.799 --> 00:20:20.039 the Miller test is increasingly difficult to apply because of 379 00:20:20.039 --> 00:20:24.640 the Internet. If everyone can instantly access the same material online, 380 00:20:25.079 --> 00:20:31.119 which community standards apply a conservative, rural county Los Angeles 381 00:20:31.279 --> 00:20:34.240 the entire country? I mean, those questions have become harder 382 00:20:34.240 --> 00:20:37.319 to answer in the digital age, and I think the 383 00:20:37.319 --> 00:20:44.279 core constitutional debate the disagreement ultimately comes down to competing principles. 384 00:20:44.279 --> 00:20:47.079 You know, you have supporters of the Miller test arguing 385 00:20:47.119 --> 00:20:50.279 that the First Amendment was never intended to protect every 386 00:20:50.440 --> 00:20:54.480 form of sexually explicit material, and community should retain some 387 00:20:54.599 --> 00:20:59.480 authority to regulate obscenity. Critics argue that because obscenity depends 388 00:20:59.519 --> 00:21:03.960 on change, cultural norms and subjective judgments, allowing the government 389 00:21:04.000 --> 00:21:07.000 to decide what is offensive creates a risk that protected 390 00:21:07.079 --> 00:21:11.359 speech will be suppressed. They contend that vague standards can 391 00:21:11.640 --> 00:21:17.240 chill lawful expression and may be applied unevenly. This tension 392 00:21:17.319 --> 00:21:21.839 between protecting free expression and permitting regulation of obscenity is 393 00:21:21.880 --> 00:21:25.160 why Miller versus California remains one of the most debated 394 00:21:25.240 --> 00:21:29.319 First Amendment decisions more than fifty years after it was decided, 395 00:21:29.680 --> 00:21:32.720 and I think it's important to discuss this since Larry's 396 00:21:32.799 --> 00:21:36.400 life involves fights for free speech and First Amendment, that 397 00:21:36.440 --> 00:21:38.839 we really do need to take the time to delve 398 00:21:38.880 --> 00:21:41.519 into this case and kind of discuss it. 399 00:21:42.319 --> 00:21:44.680 Well, yeah, now, would you say, I've always thought I 400 00:21:44.720 --> 00:21:47.079 knew of Larry Flint, and I knew kind of, you know, 401 00:21:47.359 --> 00:21:51.319