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Are you feeling lucky? 25 00:00:56.799 --> 00:00:58.399 Don't be just necessary for Boid rep to my long 26 00:00:58.399 --> 00:01:00.000 eighteen plus terms conditions plus you want safety. 27 00:01:08.200 --> 00:01:11.640 You are now listening to True Murder, the most shocking 28 00:01:11.719 --> 00:01:14.760 killers in true crime history and the authors that have 29 00:01:14.840 --> 00:01:22.120 written about him, Gasey, Bundy, Dahmer, The Nightstalker DTK. Every 30 00:01:22.159 --> 00:01:25.840 week another fascinating author talking about the most shocking and 31 00:01:25.920 --> 00:01:30.120 infamous killers in true crime history. True Murder with your 32 00:01:30.159 --> 00:01:33.359 host journalist and author Dan Zufanski. 33 00:01:43.560 --> 00:01:47.599 Good Evening. In the late hours of July twenty second, 34 00:01:47.719 --> 00:01:52.120 nineteen ninety one, Detective Patrick Pat Kennedy of the Milwaukee 35 00:01:52.120 --> 00:01:56.359 Police Department was asked to respond to a possible homicide. 36 00:01:57.439 --> 00:01:59.359 Little did he know that he would soon be delving 37 00:01:59.359 --> 00:02:02.599 into the dark mind of one of America's most notorious 38 00:02:02.599 --> 00:02:08.000 serial killers, the Milwaukee cannibal, Jeffrey Dahmer. As the media 39 00:02:08.039 --> 00:02:12.319 clamored for details, Kennedy spent the next six weeks sixteen 40 00:02:12.360 --> 00:02:16.960 hours a day locked in an interrogation room with Dahmer. There, 41 00:02:17.000 --> 00:02:19.919 the thirty one year old killer described in lurid detail 42 00:02:20.319 --> 00:02:23.439 how he lured seventeen young men to his apartment, where 43 00:02:23.439 --> 00:02:29.000 he strangled, sexually assaulted, dismembered, and in some cases, cannibalized 44 00:02:29.000 --> 00:02:34.199 His victims. In Grilling Dahmer, The Interrogation of the Milwaukee Cannibal, 45 00:02:34.599 --> 00:02:37.400 the reader is taken on a horrifying tour into the 46 00:02:37.400 --> 00:02:42.439 mind of evil as Kennedy patiently, meticulously listened to unspeakable 47 00:02:42.479 --> 00:02:45.039 horrors so that a monster would be taken off the 48 00:02:45.080 --> 00:02:48.800 streets forever. The book they were featuring this evening is 49 00:02:48.879 --> 00:02:53.000 Grilling Dahmer, The Interrogation of the Milwaukee Cannibal, with my 50 00:02:53.039 --> 00:02:56.680 special guest journalist and author Robin maharaj Welcome back to 51 00:02:56.719 --> 00:03:00.840 the program, and thank you so much for this interview. Maharaje. 52 00:03:01.840 --> 00:03:02.599 Thank you very much. 53 00:03:02.680 --> 00:03:09.039 Dan, thank you so much with this book, Grilling Dahmer. 54 00:03:10.000 --> 00:03:13.639 Why don't you tell our audience how you came to 55 00:03:13.919 --> 00:03:17.879 be involved with Patrick Kennedy and ultimately involved with this 56 00:03:18.439 --> 00:03:20.000 incredible story. 57 00:03:22.360 --> 00:03:26.240 Well, quite a few years ago, probably back about almost 58 00:03:26.360 --> 00:03:29.400 eight nine years ago. You know, I was working as 59 00:03:29.439 --> 00:03:31.479 a freelance writer. I always had a full time job, 60 00:03:31.479 --> 00:03:33.680 but I was always, you know, sort of hungry to 61 00:03:33.840 --> 00:03:35.680 be writing all the time, and so I was working 62 00:03:35.759 --> 00:03:38.080 as a freelance writer. And I guess it was around 63 00:03:38.080 --> 00:03:40.080 the time I turned forty and I thought, you know, 64 00:03:40.120 --> 00:03:42.840 I've been sort of tackling lots of different topics, and 65 00:03:42.879 --> 00:03:45.199 it's fabulous because you do get to learn about a 66 00:03:45.199 --> 00:03:47.319 lot of different things. But I kind of got to 67 00:03:47.319 --> 00:03:48.400 a point where it's like, you know what, I just 68 00:03:48.439 --> 00:03:50.280 really want to focus on the things that I'm really 69 00:03:50.280 --> 00:03:51.960 interested in and I kind of feel like I know 70 00:03:52.039 --> 00:03:54.120 a lot about So true crime, of course, was one 71 00:03:54.159 --> 00:03:56.199 of those things, and I thought, I'm just going to 72 00:03:56.240 --> 00:03:59.319 try and tackle an article and write a true crime 73 00:03:59.400 --> 00:04:01.719 article into sort of see how it goes. So I 74 00:04:01.840 --> 00:04:05.560 chose Jeffrey Dahmer because I had seen something listed and 75 00:04:05.599 --> 00:04:07.400 it was kind of like, you know, the the top 76 00:04:07.439 --> 00:04:10.280 ten most evil people in history, and for whatever reason, 77 00:04:10.319 --> 00:04:13.960 Dahmer was number three. So there was like Stalin Hitler Dahmer, 78 00:04:14.120 --> 00:04:15.759 and I was like, you know, I know he was 79 00:04:15.800 --> 00:04:18.800 a bad guy. I know he did some really monstrous things, 80 00:04:18.800 --> 00:04:20.720 but really was he the most you know, third most 81 00:04:20.720 --> 00:04:22.920 evil person in the history of the world. So it 82 00:04:23.000 --> 00:04:25.000 kind of made me want to explore him a little 83 00:04:25.040 --> 00:04:27.279 bit and do some you know, background check on him 84 00:04:27.319 --> 00:04:29.439 and research a little bit more about the case. I mean, 85 00:04:29.439 --> 00:04:32.560 I was familiar obviously with who Jeffrey Dahmer was, and 86 00:04:32.600 --> 00:04:34.920 I knew sort of the highlights of the story and 87 00:04:35.199 --> 00:04:38.279 the crimes that he had been you know, I had 88 00:04:38.360 --> 00:04:40.800 been charged with and eventually was in prison for. But 89 00:04:40.839 --> 00:04:42.560 I didn't really know that much about him. So I 90 00:04:42.639 --> 00:04:45.040 decided I wanted to do an article about him. And 91 00:04:45.240 --> 00:04:47.160 one of the reasons that I kind of felt a 92 00:04:47.199 --> 00:04:49.560 little bit of the difference between him and sort of 93 00:04:49.639 --> 00:04:51.759 other killers that you know, you've profiled in books on 94 00:04:51.800 --> 00:04:54.040 your show. It's I just sort of felt like, you know, 95 00:04:54.120 --> 00:04:56.160 this is a guy who he was killing, but it 96 00:04:56.199 --> 00:04:58.560 was really a means to an end because he was 97 00:04:58.560 --> 00:05:01.639 really a neclophiliac and he really just wanted those bodies, 98 00:05:02.120 --> 00:05:05.560 And ultimately, really we really wanted was companionship. He wanted 99 00:05:05.560 --> 00:05:07.639 a person. He wanted somebody there to be with him 100 00:05:07.680 --> 00:05:11.560 because he'd never really experienced love. He didn't really like conflict, 101 00:05:11.600 --> 00:05:13.959 he didn't really like confrontations, so he didn't really want 102 00:05:14.000 --> 00:05:18.199 a true partner, someone that he could be conversing with 103 00:05:18.279 --> 00:05:21.000 and challenging him at all. He just really wanted somebody 104 00:05:21.040 --> 00:05:23.600 there who he could talk to and do things with. 105 00:05:24.319 --> 00:05:26.519 So but I found, you know, his place of coming 106 00:05:26.680 --> 00:05:28.480 was really out of a place of love, out of 107 00:05:28.519 --> 00:05:31.160 a place of need and loneliness. So to me, I thought, 108 00:05:31.160 --> 00:05:34.040 that's something I want to explore. So I contacted a 109 00:05:34.079 --> 00:05:37.120 few people and eventually I found myself in touch with 110 00:05:37.120 --> 00:05:40.199 Patrick Kennedy through email, and he seemed to be kind 111 00:05:40.199 --> 00:05:42.439 of interested in my take on it, and he said, 112 00:05:42.439 --> 00:05:45.399 you know, I have notes and reports and different things 113 00:05:45.399 --> 00:05:48.879 that I've kept over all these years. Maybe it'll help you. So, 114 00:05:49.160 --> 00:05:51.439 as it turned out, he became a source for my 115 00:05:51.519 --> 00:05:54.519 interview and I ended up going down to Wisconsin. I 116 00:05:54.560 --> 00:05:57.279 met with him, we did the interview, he showed me 117 00:05:57.439 --> 00:05:59.319 all of these notes and everything that he had, and 118 00:05:59.399 --> 00:06:03.120 we even talked about possibly collaborating on something a book together. 119 00:06:03.600 --> 00:06:06.240 My goal was that, you know, this is his story 120 00:06:06.279 --> 00:06:08.160 and he just needs some assistance to kind of get 121 00:06:08.199 --> 00:06:11.600 it through to fruition finished and then maybe to be 122 00:06:11.600 --> 00:06:15.040 looked at by a publisher. But as it turned out, 123 00:06:15.120 --> 00:06:19.079 five days after we met in Wisconsin, he Patrick had 124 00:06:19.120 --> 00:06:22.079 a heart attack and died, And so I did eventually 125 00:06:22.160 --> 00:06:24.079 go on with my article. I sent it to his 126 00:06:24.160 --> 00:06:26.319 widow and she said, you know, you did a really 127 00:06:26.399 --> 00:06:28.199 nice job here, and I think that you kind of 128 00:06:28.199 --> 00:06:31.959 had an understanding of how Patrick felt about Dahmer. Why 129 00:06:31.959 --> 00:06:34.839 don't you just take the notes, take whatever you have there, 130 00:06:34.839 --> 00:06:36.160 and just see what you can do with it. If 131 00:06:36.199 --> 00:06:38.680 it becomes a book, great, But she wasn't really prepared 132 00:06:38.680 --> 00:06:40.560 to do anything, like she didn't have the experience. I 133 00:06:40.560 --> 00:06:42.399 don't think she really even had the ambition or the 134 00:06:42.480 --> 00:06:45.720 drive necessarily to turn this into a book. She said, 135 00:06:45.720 --> 00:06:48.560 it'll probably just go into a desk drawer otherwise, you know. 136 00:06:48.639 --> 00:06:50.879 So with that, I said, you know, not only is 137 00:06:50.920 --> 00:06:53.160 this an interesting story that should really be told, but 138 00:06:53.199 --> 00:06:55.839 it's also now kind of a legacy for Kennedy because 139 00:06:56.120 --> 00:06:58.639 to me, he was a detective who just happened to 140 00:06:58.759 --> 00:07:01.959 be responsible for in interrogating one of the most notorious 141 00:07:02.000 --> 00:07:05.759 serial killers in American history. But really, he Patrick had 142 00:07:05.759 --> 00:07:09.519 an interesting story as well. 143 00:07:09.759 --> 00:07:14.240 Yes, so you talk about his background, fourth generation police officer, 144 00:07:14.399 --> 00:07:18.000 and then his rise in the police ranks itself till 145 00:07:18.040 --> 00:07:25.600 that point when he was slated for the interrogation of 146 00:07:25.720 --> 00:07:30.920 Jeffrey Dahmer by his lieutenant at that time, and after 147 00:07:31.000 --> 00:07:34.199 he died and you corresponded with his widow, Really what 148 00:07:34.240 --> 00:07:38.800 you were left with was the description, the total description 149 00:07:39.079 --> 00:07:44.240 of Jeffrey Dahmer's confession, but also his complete interaction as 150 00:07:44.240 --> 00:07:46.759 he was the main detective along with another detective, but 151 00:07:46.800 --> 00:07:50.800 he was absolutely the main detective in erit in interrogating 152 00:07:51.120 --> 00:07:56.079 Jeffrey Dahmer. So what you did have from Patrick Kennedy's 153 00:07:56.079 --> 00:08:01.399 widow was essentially how he did this, what Jeffrey Dahmer 154 00:08:01.439 --> 00:08:05.399 had said, and he was able to obtain identification of 155 00:08:05.399 --> 00:08:10.040 all the victims with Jeffrey Dahmer's cooperation, and yeah, identification 156 00:08:10.240 --> 00:08:13.399 and details about all all of the murders to corroborate 157 00:08:14.279 --> 00:08:18.600 his confession that Patrick Kennedy elicited from him. 158 00:08:18.680 --> 00:08:24.600 M hmm. Yeah. So Dahmer very quickly felt the rapport 159 00:08:24.639 --> 00:08:27.079 obviously with Kennedy and said, you know, I'll talk, but 160 00:08:27.120 --> 00:08:30.120 I only want to talk to you. And so there 161 00:08:30.199 --> 00:08:32.720 was something there that I think it was to Patrick saying, 162 00:08:32.759 --> 00:08:35.399 you know, like hi, you know, like introduced themselves and 163 00:08:35.679 --> 00:08:37.840 he wasn't going to rough them up. Like there was 164 00:08:37.879 --> 00:08:39.879 a couple of other detectives who had kind of tackled 165 00:08:39.960 --> 00:08:42.000 him because they realized, you know, we've got somebody here 166 00:08:42.000 --> 00:08:44.559 who seems to be dangerous. And this is all of 167 00:08:44.600 --> 00:08:47.480 course in Dahmer's apartment. By the time, Kennedy, who was 168 00:08:47.519 --> 00:08:50.679 a plain closed detective, showed up. You know, he'd been 169 00:08:50.720 --> 00:08:52.879 sort of wrestling with the cops a little bit. He 170 00:08:52.919 --> 00:08:55.320 was handcuffed and they got a mop and I think 171 00:08:55.360 --> 00:08:57.120 he was just like a friendly face all of a sudden, 172 00:08:57.159 --> 00:08:59.240 and Dahmer e Ben said, are you going to beat 173 00:08:59.279 --> 00:09:01.799 me up too? And Patrick said, no, whine, I'm just 174 00:09:01.840 --> 00:09:03.679 gonna I'm just gonna hang out with you for a 175 00:09:03.720 --> 00:09:05.559 little bit and then we're going to take you downtown 176 00:09:05.679 --> 00:09:07.320 and then I want to talk to you. I want 177 00:09:07.320 --> 00:09:08.320 to hear what you have to say. 178 00:09:09.519 --> 00:09:12.679 Tell us a little bit more about Patrick Kennedy's background 179 00:09:13.639 --> 00:09:19.440 concerning his religious upbringing and before we talk about his 180 00:09:19.519 --> 00:09:23.799 assignment to interrogate Jeffrey Dahmer and his plan on how 181 00:09:23.840 --> 00:09:27.679 he would interrogate him. 182 00:09:28.039 --> 00:09:31.000 Well, Patrick was a Catholic, and I mean a Catholic 183 00:09:31.039 --> 00:09:32.960 I think all through his life, right up to the 184 00:09:33.080 --> 00:09:34.960 end of his life, and you know, I think he 185 00:09:35.000 --> 00:09:38.440 was a practicing Catholic. He found a lot of fallows 186 00:09:38.559 --> 00:09:40.840 in the church. And in fact, even before you know 187 00:09:40.919 --> 00:09:43.120 he was embarking on any kind of career, when he 188 00:09:43.159 --> 00:09:45.639 was a young man or you know, like late teens, 189 00:09:45.639 --> 00:09:47.440 early twen he's trying to decide what he wanted to 190 00:09:47.480 --> 00:09:52.039 do with his future. He really contemplated actually becoming a priest. 191 00:09:52.399 --> 00:09:54.480 You know, he was that involved with the Catholic Church. 192 00:09:54.519 --> 00:09:57.360 I think he actually did some scholarship stuff with a 193 00:09:57.360 --> 00:10:00.519 religious school that he went to and attended. So he 194 00:10:00.639 --> 00:10:03.519 was really, you know, very very involved in in you know, 195 00:10:03.639 --> 00:10:07.720 the Catholic Church. And then Patrick had a drinking problem, 196 00:10:07.759 --> 00:10:10.200 like he was an alcoholic, and so when it came 197 00:10:10.320 --> 00:10:12.879 time where he decided, okay, I'm just going to you know, 198 00:10:12.919 --> 00:10:15.240 I want to beat this, i want to get past this, 199 00:10:16.360 --> 00:10:18.120 it was really through the church, Like he went through 200 00:10:18.120 --> 00:10:20.759 a counseling kind of program through that was offered to 201 00:10:20.879 --> 00:10:23.440 the church. So it was a really important part of 202 00:10:23.480 --> 00:10:25.720 his life. You know, I would say, I think the 203 00:10:25.759 --> 00:10:28.679 idea of the confessional I think was important to Patrick, 204 00:10:28.720 --> 00:10:31.159 and I think that idea of making it, you know, 205 00:10:31.240 --> 00:10:33.879 a place of sort of comfort for that person, I mean, 206 00:10:33.919 --> 00:10:35.879 no matter what it is that they're confessing to, you know, 207 00:10:36.000 --> 00:10:37.440 just kind of be there and say like, I'm not 208 00:10:37.480 --> 00:10:39.639 here to judge you, I'm just here to listen to 209 00:10:39.639 --> 00:10:42.399 what you have to say. That was definitely the way 210 00:10:42.519 --> 00:10:45.559 that Kennedy kind of, I think became sort of a 211 00:10:46.120 --> 00:10:48.679 somebody that Dahmer could or felt that he could talk to, 212 00:10:49.080 --> 00:10:52.360 because we're talking about Dahmer, who most people who knew him, 213 00:10:52.399 --> 00:10:54.039 the few people that knew him, and those that knew 214 00:10:54.120 --> 00:10:56.879 him really well, would say, you know, under any kind 215 00:10:56.919 --> 00:10:59.559 of type of pressure or authority where you know, he 216 00:10:59.600 --> 00:11:01.919 felt he was being confronted, he would just shut down, 217 00:11:02.000 --> 00:11:04.039 like he just would not talk. He had nothing to 218 00:11:04.080 --> 00:11:06.519 say to anybody, and that was it. So the idea 219 00:11:06.559 --> 00:11:08.159 that Patrick could say, well, do you know, do you 220 00:11:08.159 --> 00:11:10.240 want some coffee? How about a cigarette? Have you eaten 221 00:11:10.279 --> 00:11:12.240 at all, you know lately? Can we get just sounded 222 00:11:12.639 --> 00:11:15.159 like this was all sort of a humane thing that 223 00:11:15.919 --> 00:11:19.480 Patrick was doing, and that I think Dahmer responded to. 224 00:11:20.519 --> 00:11:23.799 Patrick knew as well, because of him being an alcoholic 225 00:11:23.879 --> 00:11:28.039 or recovering alcoholic himself, very quickly recognized in Jeff, like 226 00:11:28.080 --> 00:11:30.159 this guy I think has got a drinking problem. Like 227 00:11:30.200 --> 00:11:31.720 when he showed up, like when he came to the 228 00:11:31.720 --> 00:11:34.279 police station, I think he was just sobering out from 229 00:11:34.360 --> 00:11:37.399 an evening the night of drinking. And I think Patrick 230 00:11:37.440 --> 00:11:39.799 recognized that right away and said, you know, do you 231 00:11:39.799 --> 00:11:42.480 think you have a drinking problem? Jeff? And just said yeah, 232 00:11:42.919 --> 00:11:44.919 and Patrick said, you know, this is something that we 233 00:11:45.000 --> 00:11:48.200 can we can talk about, so between religion and sort 234 00:11:48.240 --> 00:11:50.159 of is there a God and what role does God 235 00:11:50.240 --> 00:11:53.039 play in your life? Plus alcoholism and sort of the 236 00:11:53.080 --> 00:11:55.159 effects that that has had in terms of, you know, 237 00:11:55.200 --> 00:11:58.519 decisions and things that he would make. I think for Dahmer's. 238 00:11:58.840 --> 00:12:00.919 In Dahmer's case, it kind of gave him energy, It 239 00:12:01.039 --> 00:12:04.200 kind of gave him confidence and some courage a little bit. 240 00:12:04.480 --> 00:12:07.080 And often he would say when it came to dismembering 241 00:12:07.159 --> 00:12:09.600 bodies and the things that he was doing, he'd often 242 00:12:09.639 --> 00:12:12.159 have to be very drunk in order to be able 243 00:12:12.200 --> 00:12:14.840 to do that. So yeah, so they'd sort of connected 244 00:12:14.840 --> 00:12:18.080 along the way. But Patrick, before he became a police officer, 245 00:12:18.120 --> 00:12:20.200 he did come from a family of cops, but he 246 00:12:20.240 --> 00:12:23.080 actually went into social work first, and he was working 247 00:12:23.120 --> 00:12:27.039 with ex convicts and they were doing a program where 248 00:12:27.120 --> 00:12:29.559 they were working on houses. So they were teaching these 249 00:12:29.600 --> 00:12:33.639 guys' skills like construction and electrical work and plumbing, and 250 00:12:33.679 --> 00:12:36.919 then they would fix up houses in Milwaukee, sell them, 251 00:12:37.399 --> 00:12:39.480 use the money that they made and buy another house 252 00:12:39.519 --> 00:12:41.120 that needed to work on. And so this was to 253 00:12:41.240 --> 00:12:43.960 give these guys like something to do, something that wasn't criminal, 254 00:12:44.240 --> 00:12:46.399 and also to teach them some skills. So he did 255 00:12:46.399 --> 00:12:49.399 that for quite a long time, but his family was growing. 256 00:12:49.440 --> 00:12:51.679 He got married very young. He had his first child 257 00:12:51.679 --> 00:12:53.919 when he was very young, like nineteen twenty years old. 258 00:12:54.200 --> 00:12:57.360 So by the time his third child came along, and 259 00:12:57.360 --> 00:13:00.600 we're talking Catholic private schools, he needed a her career. 260 00:13:00.639 --> 00:13:02.279 He needed a career that was going to pay him 261 00:13:02.279 --> 00:13:03.960 a little bit more money. So I think that's when 262 00:13:04.000 --> 00:13:07.480 he decided to join the police force. And he also 263 00:13:07.559 --> 00:13:09.240 kind of felt, like, you know, I know the scheduling, 264 00:13:09.279 --> 00:13:10.879 I know how it works, I know what it looks 265 00:13:10.960 --> 00:13:13.440 like to be a cop, because again, his father was 266 00:13:13.480 --> 00:13:15.759 a police officer, so he kind of knew what was 267 00:13:15.799 --> 00:13:19.279 expected of him. And yeah, so he very quickly, Like 268 00:13:19.320 --> 00:13:20.960 I mean, I think he went up the ranks and 269 00:13:21.000 --> 00:13:25.000 became a homicide detective pretty young when he encountered Dahmer 270 00:13:25.039 --> 00:13:27.559 for the first time. Packed with thirty seven. 271 00:13:30.120 --> 00:13:32.799 You talk about this July twenty second, nineteen ninety one, 272 00:13:32.799 --> 00:13:35.639 and anybody that has ever followed any true crime story 273 00:13:35.720 --> 00:13:38.200 or Jeffrey Dahmer story knows, so we don't have to 274 00:13:38.279 --> 00:13:42.000 go through it again. But this is Tracy Edwards is 275 00:13:42.919 --> 00:13:44.960 found by police. So he flags down police with a 276 00:13:44.960 --> 00:13:48.399 handcuff around one arm, and he doesn't really he just 277 00:13:48.440 --> 00:13:53.120 wants to getandcupped unhandcuffed, and so he directs the police 278 00:13:53.159 --> 00:13:57.360 to the nearby apartment of Jeffrey Dahmer, and he doesn't 279 00:13:57.360 --> 00:14:00.360 want any criminal charges. He just wants the key to 280 00:14:00.399 --> 00:14:03.799 the handcuffs, and Jeffrey Dahmer can't produce that, so there's 281 00:14:03.799 --> 00:14:06.279 a scuffle with police. After they take a look around, 282 00:14:06.840 --> 00:14:10.519 they see some polaroids of dismembered people, and so while 283 00:14:10.519 --> 00:14:13.799 they are going through, Milwaukee Police Department is going through 284 00:14:13.799 --> 00:14:15.720 there and the first thing they do is they look 285 00:14:15.720 --> 00:14:17.480 in the fridge and they see a severed head in 286 00:14:17.519 --> 00:14:21.039 the fridge staring at them. But Kennedy is not at 287 00:14:21.039 --> 00:14:25.600 the home itself. He is interrogating Jeffrey Dahmer. So the 288 00:14:25.639 --> 00:14:30.720 thing is obviously one of the main issues always, if 289 00:14:30.720 --> 00:14:34.039 not the main issue is when the issue of whether 290 00:14:34.120 --> 00:14:39.720 this person will ask for an attorney. So obviously Dahmer says, 291 00:14:39.879 --> 00:14:43.480 I don't want to be uncooperative, but do you think 292 00:14:43.480 --> 00:14:47.000 I should get a lawyer? So what is the what 293 00:14:47.039 --> 00:14:49.759 does Patrick Kennedy do, because this is a big issue. 294 00:14:49.879 --> 00:14:52.440 What does he say to Jeffrey Dahmer to convince him 295 00:14:52.679 --> 00:14:55.519 to keep talking and not talk to a lawyer. 296 00:14:57.120 --> 00:14:59.600 Well, you know, he kind of uses his Dahmers you know, 297 00:14:59.679 --> 00:15:01.360 first statement, which is, you know, I really want to 298 00:15:01.360 --> 00:15:03.080 try and help you guys, and you know, if I 299 00:15:03.120 --> 00:15:05.200 can help you to tell you, you know who these 300 00:15:05.240 --> 00:15:08.480 guys were, help you identify it. Like he really they 301 00:15:08.559 --> 00:15:10.320 were saying, this is what we need from you, and 302 00:15:10.360 --> 00:15:13.080 he is kind of agreeing to it. Pat actually did 303 00:15:13.080 --> 00:15:15.039 go to the apartment though he actually, I mean he 304 00:15:15.080 --> 00:15:17.519 did the interrogation and everything, and he wasn't the first 305 00:15:17.919 --> 00:15:22.279 police officer on the scene. There were some like uniformed 306 00:15:22.279 --> 00:15:25.159 cops that were there with Tracy, but they've quickly called 307 00:15:25.159 --> 00:15:28.480 homic audism as they found the head. And Pat was 308 00:15:28.519 --> 00:15:30.919 actually at the police station with his partner and they 309 00:15:30.960 --> 00:15:32.799 were just getting ready to start their shift and they 310 00:15:32.799 --> 00:15:35.200 got that call. They got that call you got to 311 00:15:35.240 --> 00:15:37.480 go check out this apartment, something about ahead in the 312 00:15:37.480 --> 00:15:40.519 freezer or fridge and you know it's probably nothing, but 313 00:15:40.559 --> 00:15:41.960 you need to go and look at you know, we'll 314 00:15:42.000 --> 00:15:44.159 go check it out and just say that we did 315 00:15:44.200 --> 00:15:46.080 it kind of thing. And so that's how he ends 316 00:15:46.159 --> 00:15:49.279 up at the apartment, and you know, yeah, Jeff had 317 00:15:49.320 --> 00:15:50.679 been kind of roughed up a little bit. He was 318 00:15:50.720 --> 00:15:53.799 already handcuffed. But that was actually when they first were introduced. 319 00:15:54.080 --> 00:15:57.039 And I think that's too when Dahmer kind of realized, Okay, 320 00:15:57.039 --> 00:15:59.000 well maybe this maybe I can talk to this guy, 321 00:15:59.159 --> 00:16:01.600 you know, and so he kind of stuck with him 322 00:16:01.639 --> 00:16:03.639 the whole time until they got to the police station, 323 00:16:04.240 --> 00:16:06.840 and that's when Dahmer said, you know, I'll talk talk, 324 00:16:06.919 --> 00:16:08.679 but I only want to talk to him. And so 325 00:16:08.759 --> 00:16:12.399 then Pat's boss said, Okay, you know, you're on this guy. 326 00:16:12.480 --> 00:16:16.240 You're like glue. The thing about the lawyer, though Attitude 327 00:16:16.320 --> 00:16:19.759 asked about, was I guess somebody saw these things on 328 00:16:19.799 --> 00:16:22.960 the news. They saw the name Jeffrey Dahmer, and so 329 00:16:23.000 --> 00:16:28.679 they actually called Jeff's dad. You know, Jeffrey was sort 330 00:16:28.679 --> 00:16:30.480 of saying to Pat, you know, do I need a lawyer? 331 00:16:30.480 --> 00:16:32.000 He was kind of a hemming and hauling a little bit, 332 00:16:32.120 --> 00:16:33.200 not sure. I kind of want to talk to you. 333 00:16:33.200 --> 00:16:35.399 I kind of want to keep going here. But I 334 00:16:35.399 --> 00:16:37.720 guess he was realizing I'm in really hot water. But 335 00:16:37.960 --> 00:16:42.000 it was actually Lionel, Jeff's father, who was in Ohio, 336 00:16:42.159 --> 00:16:44.440 heard about what was going on and said, you know, 337 00:16:44.480 --> 00:16:46.440 I'm going to get a lawyer for my son. So 338 00:16:46.519 --> 00:16:48.679 he phoned a lawyer that they actually already had had 339 00:16:48.679 --> 00:16:50.919 some experience with. I mean, Jeff had been in some 340 00:16:50.960 --> 00:16:54.000 trouble before, nothing like this, but had had a lawyer before. 341 00:16:54.039 --> 00:16:56.759 So he got that lawyer and he came down and 342 00:16:56.840 --> 00:16:59.320 I guess this was really sort of the standoff almost, 343 00:16:59.360 --> 00:17:01.080 you know, the lawyer saying I don't want my client 344 00:17:01.159 --> 00:17:04.480 talking anymore. They're saying, well, he didn't hire you. You know, 345 00:17:04.640 --> 00:17:06.720 somebody else had hired you, and we got to find 346 00:17:06.720 --> 00:17:09.599 out from Jeff what he wants to do. So you know, 347 00:17:09.680 --> 00:17:11.400 I guess they could have said, well, your lawyer's here, 348 00:17:11.440 --> 00:17:13.759 maybe you better just shut up, but they really wanted to. 349 00:17:13.880 --> 00:17:16.200 I mean, they wanted to continue him talking, and they 350 00:17:16.200 --> 00:17:18.240 were doing everything they could to kind of keep him, 351 00:17:18.680 --> 00:17:22.880 you know, communicating with them. So they said, well, you can. 352 00:17:22.799 --> 00:17:23.359 Talk to us. 353 00:17:23.359 --> 00:17:25.240 I mean, you can have your lawyer here, your rights 354 00:17:25.240 --> 00:17:28.160 can be you know, looked after. But if you sign 355 00:17:28.480 --> 00:17:31.359 the or Sayodlpie's paper that you want to continue talking 356 00:17:31.400 --> 00:17:34.039 to us and helping us, then you don't have to 357 00:17:34.039 --> 00:17:36.000 go away to your lawyer. You can sit here and 358 00:17:36.039 --> 00:17:38.200 still talk to us. So that's what he ultimately did. 359 00:17:39.079 --> 00:17:42.759 Though during the interrogation, the lawyer did have his assistant 360 00:17:42.799 --> 00:17:45.440 sitting in through pretty much everything, like she was there 361 00:17:45.480 --> 00:17:47.039 while he was confessing. 362 00:17:48.680 --> 00:17:51.880 You right though, that he uses the He talks to 363 00:17:51.960 --> 00:17:54.480 Jeffrey Dahmer and realizes that Jeffrey Dahmer does not want 364 00:17:54.519 --> 00:17:57.079 to go to the bullpen with everybody that's been arrested 365 00:17:57.119 --> 00:18:00.640 that night. So he says, well, you can go down 366 00:18:00.680 --> 00:18:02.880 there if you want, but I know, he realized he 367 00:18:02.880 --> 00:18:04.440 does doesn't want to go down there, so he says 368 00:18:04.480 --> 00:18:07.240 to him, you can continue talking. We can just talk 369 00:18:07.279 --> 00:18:10.480 about your past, to talk about your family. So he 370 00:18:10.599 --> 00:18:14.039 just encouraged him to talk. So there was an interesting 371 00:18:14.119 --> 00:18:18.319 ploy that he did that now all by himself in 372 00:18:18.400 --> 00:18:23.240 that room with Jeffrey Dahmer. He used that his Catholic upbringing, 373 00:18:23.680 --> 00:18:29.079 his experience in alcoholics anonymous. How did he use these 374 00:18:29.480 --> 00:18:32.319 aspects of his own personal life to be able to 375 00:18:32.400 --> 00:18:36.920 reach to Jeffrey Dahmer to plead to Jeffrey Dahmer to 376 00:18:37.039 --> 00:18:40.279 help in this investigation? And what was that help that 377 00:18:40.319 --> 00:18:46.640 they actually wanted once they did get this confession from him. 378 00:18:46.640 --> 00:18:49.119 Well, you know, he was using religion, he was using 379 00:18:49.240 --> 00:18:51.559 a little bit of family, he was using the idea 380 00:18:51.559 --> 00:18:54.359 of dreanking, and I mean, I mean he didn't really 381 00:18:54.400 --> 00:18:56.319 want to come off and he didn't really want Jeff 382 00:18:56.319 --> 00:18:58.279 to be sort of suddenly thinking, hey, if I just 383 00:18:58.319 --> 00:19:01.799 blame alcohol, then suddenly I'm not quite so responsible. Like 384 00:19:02.160 --> 00:19:04.640 he wanted him to sort of own it a little bit. 385 00:19:04.720 --> 00:19:07.599 But but yeah, I mean he really sort of, you know, 386 00:19:07.680 --> 00:19:10.480 sort of said, well, maybe this, you know, affected you, 387 00:19:10.559 --> 00:19:14.480 Like maybe all this drinking and everything affected you. And certainly, 388 00:19:14.599 --> 00:19:17.160 like in terms of all those the major things that 389 00:19:17.200 --> 00:19:20.279 happened in Dahmer's life, like you know, schooling and going 390 00:19:20.319 --> 00:19:23.359 on to college and then Army like everything, he'd washed 391 00:19:23.359 --> 00:19:26.920 out because he had this, you know, consistent drinking problem. 392 00:19:27.079 --> 00:19:29.519 So I think I think what Pat did was he 393 00:19:29.559 --> 00:19:33.559 actually shared a lot of his own story, which I 394 00:19:33.640 --> 00:19:37.079 can't really think of them and the detective homicide detectives 395 00:19:37.079 --> 00:19:38.680 that would do that, you know, like they kind of 396 00:19:38.759 --> 00:19:40.480 sort of they just want to hear from the suspect. 397 00:19:40.519 --> 00:19:43.000 They don't necessarily want to share anything about their own lives. 398 00:19:43.400 --> 00:19:46.480 But I guess for whatever reason, you know, Pat fufelt 399 00:19:46.559 --> 00:19:48.680 as though this is some way I can reach this 400 00:19:48.680 --> 00:19:51.839 this guy. And so some of that helped I saying 401 00:19:51.880 --> 00:19:54.359