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Speaker 4: You are now listening to True Murder, the most shocking
Speaker 4: killers in true crime history and the authors that have
Speaker 4: written about him, Gasey, Bundy, Dahmer, The Nightstalker DTK. Every
Speaker 4: week another fascinating author talking about the most shocking and
Speaker 4: infamous killers in true crime history. True Murder with your
Speaker 4: host journalist and author Dan Zufanski.
Speaker 6: Good Evening. In the late hours of July twenty second,
Speaker 6: nineteen ninety one, Detective Patrick Pat Kennedy of the Milwaukee
Speaker 6: Police Department was asked to respond to a possible homicide.
Speaker 6: Little did he know that he would soon be delving
Speaker 6: into the dark mind of one of America's most notorious
Speaker 6: serial killers, the Milwaukee cannibal, Jeffrey Dahmer. As the media
Speaker 6: clamored for details, Kennedy spent the next six weeks sixteen
Speaker 6: hours a day locked in an interrogation room with Dahmer. There,
Speaker 6: the thirty one year old killer described in lurid detail
Speaker 6: how he lured seventeen young men to his apartment, where
Speaker 6: he strangled, sexually assaulted, dismembered, and in some cases, cannibalized
Speaker 6: His victims. In Grilling Dahmer, The Interrogation of the Milwaukee Cannibal,
Speaker 6: the reader is taken on a horrifying tour into the
Speaker 6: mind of evil as Kennedy patiently, meticulously listened to unspeakable
Speaker 6: horrors so that a monster would be taken off the
Speaker 6: streets forever. The book they were featuring this evening is
Speaker 6: Grilling Dahmer, The Interrogation of the Milwaukee Cannibal, with my
Speaker 6: special guest journalist and author Robin maharaj Welcome back to
Speaker 6: the program, and thank you so much for this interview. Maharaje.
Speaker 3: Thank you very much.
Speaker 6: Dan, thank you so much with this book, Grilling Dahmer.
Speaker 6: Why don't you tell our audience how you came to
Speaker 6: be involved with Patrick Kennedy and ultimately involved with this
Speaker 6: incredible story.
Speaker 3: Well, quite a few years ago, probably back about almost
Speaker 3: eight nine years ago. You know, I was working as
Speaker 3: a freelance writer. I always had a full time job,
Speaker 3: but I was always, you know, sort of hungry to
Speaker 3: be writing all the time, and so I was working
Speaker 3: as a freelance writer. And I guess it was around
Speaker 3: the time I turned forty and I thought, you know,
Speaker 3: I've been sort of tackling lots of different topics, and
Speaker 3: it's fabulous because you do get to learn about a
Speaker 3: lot of different things. But I kind of got to
Speaker 3: a point where it's like, you know what, I just
Speaker 3: really want to focus on the things that I'm really
Speaker 3: interested in and I kind of feel like I know
Speaker 3: a lot about So true crime, of course, was one
Speaker 3: of those things, and I thought, I'm just going to
Speaker 3: try and tackle an article and write a true crime
Speaker 3: article into sort of see how it goes. So I
Speaker 3: chose Jeffrey Dahmer because I had seen something listed and
Speaker 3: it was kind of like, you know, the the top
Speaker 3: ten most evil people in history, and for whatever reason,
Speaker 3: Dahmer was number three. So there was like Stalin Hitler Dahmer,
Speaker 3: and I was like, you know, I know he was
Speaker 3: a bad guy. I know he did some really monstrous things,
Speaker 3: but really was he the most you know, third most
Speaker 3: evil person in the history of the world. So it
Speaker 3: kind of made me want to explore him a little
Speaker 3: bit and do some you know, background check on him
Speaker 3: and research a little bit more about the case. I mean,
Speaker 3: I was familiar obviously with who Jeffrey Dahmer was, and
Speaker 3: I knew sort of the highlights of the story and
Speaker 3: the crimes that he had been you know, I had
Speaker 3: been charged with and eventually was in prison for. But
Speaker 3: I didn't really know that much about him. So I
Speaker 3: decided I wanted to do an article about him. And
Speaker 3: one of the reasons that I kind of felt a
Speaker 3: little bit of the difference between him and sort of
Speaker 3: other killers that you know, you've profiled in books on
Speaker 3: your show. It's I just sort of felt like, you know,
Speaker 3: this is a guy who he was killing, but it
Speaker 3: was really a means to an end because he was
Speaker 3: really a neclophiliac and he really just wanted those bodies,
Speaker 3: And ultimately, really we really wanted was companionship. He wanted
Speaker 3: a person. He wanted somebody there to be with him
Speaker 3: because he'd never really experienced love. He didn't really like conflict,
Speaker 3: he didn't really like confrontations, so he didn't really want
Speaker 3: a true partner, someone that he could be conversing with
Speaker 3: and challenging him at all. He just really wanted somebody
Speaker 3: there who he could talk to and do things with.
Speaker 3: So but I found, you know, his place of coming
Speaker 3: was really out of a place of love, out of
Speaker 3: a place of need and loneliness. So to me, I thought,
Speaker 3: that's something I want to explore. So I contacted a
Speaker 3: few people and eventually I found myself in touch with
Speaker 3: Patrick Kennedy through email, and he seemed to be kind
Speaker 3: of interested in my take on it, and he said,
Speaker 3: you know, I have notes and reports and different things
Speaker 3: that I've kept over all these years. Maybe it'll help you. So,
Speaker 3: as it turned out, he became a source for my
Speaker 3: interview and I ended up going down to Wisconsin. I
Speaker 3: met with him, we did the interview, he showed me
Speaker 3: all of these notes and everything that he had, and
Speaker 3: we even talked about possibly collaborating on something a book together.
Speaker 3: My goal was that, you know, this is his story
Speaker 3: and he just needs some assistance to kind of get
Speaker 3: it through to fruition finished and then maybe to be
Speaker 3: looked at by a publisher. But as it turned out,
Speaker 3: five days after we met in Wisconsin, he Patrick had
Speaker 3: a heart attack and died, And so I did eventually
Speaker 3: go on with my article. I sent it to his
Speaker 3: widow and she said, you know, you did a really
Speaker 3: nice job here, and I think that you kind of
Speaker 3: had an understanding of how Patrick felt about Dahmer. Why
Speaker 3: don't you just take the notes, take whatever you have there,
Speaker 3: and just see what you can do with it. If
Speaker 3: it becomes a book, great, But she wasn't really prepared
Speaker 3: to do anything, like she didn't have the experience. I
Speaker 3: don't think she really even had the ambition or the
Speaker 3: drive necessarily to turn this into a book. She said,
Speaker 3: it'll probably just go into a desk drawer otherwise, you know.
Speaker 3: So with that, I said, you know, not only is
Speaker 3: this an interesting story that should really be told, but
Speaker 3: it's also now kind of a legacy for Kennedy because
Speaker 3: to me, he was a detective who just happened to
Speaker 3: be responsible for in interrogating one of the most notorious
Speaker 3: serial killers in American history. But really, he Patrick had
Speaker 3: an interesting story as well.
Speaker 6: Yes, so you talk about his background, fourth generation police officer,
Speaker 6: and then his rise in the police ranks itself till
Speaker 6: that point when he was slated for the interrogation of
Speaker 6: Jeffrey Dahmer by his lieutenant at that time, and after
Speaker 6: he died and you corresponded with his widow, Really what
Speaker 6: you were left with was the description, the total description
Speaker 6: of Jeffrey Dahmer's confession, but also his complete interaction as
Speaker 6: he was the main detective along with another detective, but
Speaker 6: he was absolutely the main detective in erit in interrogating
Speaker 6: Jeffrey Dahmer. So what you did have from Patrick Kennedy's
Speaker 6: widow was essentially how he did this, what Jeffrey Dahmer
Speaker 6: had said, and he was able to obtain identification of
Speaker 6: all the victims with Jeffrey Dahmer's cooperation, and yeah, identification
Speaker 6: and details about all all of the murders to corroborate
Speaker 6: his confession that Patrick Kennedy elicited from him.
Speaker 3: M hmm. Yeah. So Dahmer very quickly felt the rapport
Speaker 3: obviously with Kennedy and said, you know, I'll talk, but
Speaker 3: I only want to talk to you. And so there
Speaker 3: was something there that I think it was to Patrick saying,
Speaker 3: you know, like hi, you know, like introduced themselves and
Speaker 3: he wasn't going to rough them up. Like there was
Speaker 3: a couple of other detectives who had kind of tackled
Speaker 3: him because they realized, you know, we've got somebody here
Speaker 3: who seems to be dangerous. And this is all of
Speaker 3: course in Dahmer's apartment. By the time, Kennedy, who was
Speaker 3: a plain closed detective, showed up. You know, he'd been
Speaker 3: sort of wrestling with the cops a little bit. He
Speaker 3: was handcuffed and they got a mop and I think
Speaker 3: he was just like a friendly face all of a sudden,
Speaker 3: and Dahmer e Ben said, are you going to beat
Speaker 3: me up too? And Patrick said, no, whine, I'm just
Speaker 3: gonna I'm just gonna hang out with you for a
Speaker 3: little bit and then we're going to take you downtown
Speaker 3: and then I want to talk to you. I want
Speaker 3: to hear what you have to say.
Speaker 6: Tell us a little bit more about Patrick Kennedy's background
Speaker 6: concerning his religious upbringing and before we talk about his
Speaker 6: assignment to interrogate Jeffrey Dahmer and his plan on how
Speaker 6: he would interrogate him.
Speaker 3: Well, Patrick was a Catholic, and I mean a Catholic
Speaker 3: I think all through his life, right up to the
Speaker 3: end of his life, and you know, I think he
Speaker 3: was a practicing Catholic. He found a lot of fallows
Speaker 3: in the church. And in fact, even before you know
Speaker 3: he was embarking on any kind of career, when he
Speaker 3: was a young man or you know, like late teens,
Speaker 3: early twen he's trying to decide what he wanted to
Speaker 3: do with his future. He really contemplated actually becoming a priest.
Speaker 3: You know, he was that involved with the Catholic Church.
Speaker 3: I think he actually did some scholarship stuff with a
Speaker 3: religious school that he went to and attended. So he
Speaker 3: was really, you know, very very involved in in you know,
Speaker 3: the Catholic Church. And then Patrick had a drinking problem,
Speaker 3: like he was an alcoholic, and so when it came
Speaker 3: time where he decided, okay, I'm just going to you know,
Speaker 3: I want to beat this, i want to get past this,
Speaker 3: it was really through the church, Like he went through
Speaker 3: a counseling kind of program through that was offered to
Speaker 3: the church. So it was a really important part of
Speaker 3: his life. You know, I would say, I think the
Speaker 3: idea of the confessional I think was important to Patrick,
Speaker 3: and I think that idea of making it, you know,
Speaker 3: a place of sort of comfort for that person, I mean,
Speaker 3: no matter what it is that they're confessing to, you know,
Speaker 3: just kind of be there and say like, I'm not
Speaker 3: here to judge you, I'm just here to listen to
Speaker 3: what you have to say. That was definitely the way
Speaker 3: that Kennedy kind of, I think became sort of a
Speaker 3: somebody that Dahmer could or felt that he could talk to,
Speaker 3: because we're talking about Dahmer, who most people who knew him,
Speaker 3: the few people that knew him, and those that knew
Speaker 3: him really well, would say, you know, under any kind
Speaker 3: of type of pressure or authority where you know, he
Speaker 3: felt he was being confronted, he would just shut down,
Speaker 3: like he just would not talk. He had nothing to
Speaker 3: say to anybody, and that was it. So the idea
Speaker 3: that Patrick could say, well, do you know, do you
Speaker 3: want some coffee? How about a cigarette? Have you eaten
Speaker 3: at all, you know lately? Can we get just sounded
Speaker 3: like this was all sort of a humane thing that
Speaker 3: Patrick was doing, and that I think Dahmer responded to.
Speaker 3: Patrick knew as well, because of him being an alcoholic
Speaker 3: or recovering alcoholic himself, very quickly recognized in Jeff, like
Speaker 3: this guy I think has got a drinking problem. Like
Speaker 3: when he showed up, like when he came to the
Speaker 3: police station, I think he was just sobering out from
Speaker 3: an evening the night of drinking. And I think Patrick
Speaker 3: recognized that right away and said, you know, do you
Speaker 3: think you have a drinking problem? Jeff? And just said yeah,
Speaker 3: and Patrick said, you know, this is something that we
Speaker 3: can we can talk about, so between religion and sort
Speaker 3: of is there a God and what role does God
Speaker 3: play in your life? Plus alcoholism and sort of the
Speaker 3: effects that that has had in terms of, you know,
Speaker 3: decisions and things that he would make. I think for Dahmer's.
Speaker 3: In Dahmer's case, it kind of gave him energy, It
Speaker 3: kind of gave him confidence and some courage a little bit.
Speaker 3: And often he would say when it came to dismembering
Speaker 3: bodies and the things that he was doing, he'd often
Speaker 3: have to be very drunk in order to be able
Speaker 3: to do that. So yeah, so they'd sort of connected
Speaker 3: along the way. But Patrick, before he became a police officer,
Speaker 3: he did come from a family of cops, but he
Speaker 3: actually went into social work first, and he was working
Speaker 3: with ex convicts and they were doing a program where
Speaker 3: they were working on houses. So they were teaching these
Speaker 3: guys' skills like construction and electrical work and plumbing, and
Speaker 3: then they would fix up houses in Milwaukee, sell them,
Speaker 3: use the money that they made and buy another house
Speaker 3: that needed to work on. And so this was to
Speaker 3: give these guys like something to do, something that wasn't criminal,
Speaker 3: and also to teach them some skills. So he did
Speaker 3: that for quite a long time, but his family was growing.
Speaker 3: He got married very young. He had his first child
Speaker 3: when he was very young, like nineteen twenty years old.
Speaker 3: So by the time his third child came along, and
Speaker 3: we're talking Catholic private schools, he needed a her career.
Speaker 3: He needed a career that was going to pay him
Speaker 3: a little bit more money. So I think that's when
Speaker 3: he decided to join the police force. And he also
Speaker 3: kind of felt, like, you know, I know the scheduling,
Speaker 3: I know how it works, I know what it looks
Speaker 3: like to be a cop, because again, his father was
Speaker 3: a police officer, so he kind of knew what was
Speaker 3: expected of him. And yeah, so he very quickly, Like
Speaker 3: I mean, I think he went up the ranks and
Speaker 3: became a homicide detective pretty young when he encountered Dahmer
Speaker 3: for the first time. Packed with thirty seven.
Speaker 6: You talk about this July twenty second, nineteen ninety one,
Speaker 6: and anybody that has ever followed any true crime story
Speaker 6: or Jeffrey Dahmer story knows, so we don't have to
Speaker 6: go through it again. But this is Tracy Edwards is
Speaker 6: found by police. So he flags down police with a
Speaker 6: handcuff around one arm, and he doesn't really he just
Speaker 6: wants to getandcupped unhandcuffed, and so he directs the police
Speaker 6: to the nearby apartment of Jeffrey Dahmer, and he doesn't
Speaker 6: want any criminal charges. He just wants the key to
Speaker 6: the handcuffs, and Jeffrey Dahmer can't produce that, so there's
Speaker 6: a scuffle with police. After they take a look around,
Speaker 6: they see some polaroids of dismembered people, and so while
Speaker 6: they are going through, Milwaukee Police Department is going through
Speaker 6: there and the first thing they do is they look
Speaker 6: in the fridge and they see a severed head in
Speaker 6: the fridge staring at them. But Kennedy is not at
Speaker 6: the home itself. He is interrogating Jeffrey Dahmer. So the
Speaker 6: thing is obviously one of the main issues always, if
Speaker 6: not the main issue is when the issue of whether
Speaker 6: this person will ask for an attorney. So obviously Dahmer says,
Speaker 6: I don't want to be uncooperative, but do you think
Speaker 6: I should get a lawyer? So what is the what
Speaker 6: does Patrick Kennedy do, because this is a big issue.
Speaker 6: What does he say to Jeffrey Dahmer to convince him
Speaker 6: to keep talking and not talk to a lawyer.
Speaker 3: Well, you know, he kind of uses his Dahmers you know,
Speaker 3: first statement, which is, you know, I really want to
Speaker 3: try and help you guys, and you know, if I
Speaker 3: can help you to tell you, you know who these
Speaker 3: guys were, help you identify it. Like he really they
Speaker 3: were saying, this is what we need from you, and
Speaker 3: he is kind of agreeing to it. Pat actually did
Speaker 3: go to the apartment though he actually, I mean he
Speaker 3: did the interrogation and everything, and he wasn't the first
Speaker 3: police officer on the scene. There were some like uniformed
Speaker 3: cops that were there with Tracy, but they've quickly called
Speaker 3: homic audism as they found the head. And Pat was
Speaker 3: actually at the police station with his partner and they
Speaker 3: were just getting ready to start their shift and they
Speaker 3: got that call. They got that call you got to
Speaker 3: go check out this apartment, something about ahead in the
Speaker 3: freezer or fridge and you know it's probably nothing, but
Speaker 3: you need to go and look at you know, we'll
Speaker 3: go check it out and just say that we did
Speaker 3: it kind of thing. And so that's how he ends
Speaker 3: up at the apartment, and you know, yeah, Jeff had
Speaker 3: been kind of roughed up a little bit. He was
Speaker 3: already handcuffed. But that was actually when they first were introduced.
Speaker 3: And I think that's too when Dahmer kind of realized, Okay,
Speaker 3: well maybe this maybe I can talk to this guy,
Speaker 3: you know, and so he kind of stuck with him
Speaker 3: the whole time until they got to the police station,
Speaker 3: and that's when Dahmer said, you know, I'll talk talk,
Speaker 3: but I only want to talk to him. And so
Speaker 3: then Pat's boss said, Okay, you know, you're on this guy.
Speaker 3: You're like glue. The thing about the lawyer, though Attitude
Speaker 3: asked about, was I guess somebody saw these things on
Speaker 3: the news. They saw the name Jeffrey Dahmer, and so
Speaker 3: they actually called Jeff's dad. You know, Jeffrey was sort
Speaker 3: of saying to Pat, you know, do I need a lawyer?
Speaker 3: He was kind of a hemming and hauling a little bit,
Speaker 3: not sure. I kind of want to talk to you.
Speaker 3: I kind of want to keep going here. But I
Speaker 3: guess he was realizing I'm in really hot water. But
Speaker 3: it was actually Lionel, Jeff's father, who was in Ohio,
Speaker 3: heard about what was going on and said, you know,
Speaker 3: I'm going to get a lawyer for my son. So
Speaker 3: he phoned a lawyer that they actually already had had
Speaker 3: some experience with. I mean, Jeff had been in some
Speaker 3: trouble before, nothing like this, but had had a lawyer before.
Speaker 3: So he got that lawyer and he came down and
Speaker 3: I guess this was really sort of the standoff almost,
Speaker 3: you know, the lawyer saying I don't want my client
Speaker 3: talking anymore. They're saying, well, he didn't hire you. You know,
Speaker 3: somebody else had hired you, and we got to find
Speaker 3: out from Jeff what he wants to do. So you know,
Speaker 3: I guess they could have said, well, your lawyer's here,
Speaker 3: maybe you better just shut up, but they really wanted to.
Speaker 3: I mean, they wanted to continue him talking, and they
Speaker 3: were doing everything they could to kind of keep him,
Speaker 3: you know, communicating with them. So they said, well, you can.
Speaker 6: Talk to us.
Speaker 3: I mean, you can have your lawyer here, your rights
Speaker 3: can be you know, looked after. But if you sign
Speaker 3: the or Sayodlpie's paper that you want to continue talking
Speaker 3: to us and helping us, then you don't have to
Speaker 3: go away to your lawyer. You can sit here and
Speaker 3: still talk to us. So that's what he ultimately did.
Speaker 3: Though during the interrogation, the lawyer did have his assistant
Speaker 3: sitting in through pretty much everything, like she was there
Speaker 3: while he was confessing.
Speaker 6: You right though, that he uses the He talks to
Speaker 6: Jeffrey Dahmer and realizes that Jeffrey Dahmer does not want
Speaker 6: to go to the bullpen with everybody that's been arrested
Speaker 6: that night. So he says, well, you can go down
Speaker 6: there if you want, but I know, he realized he
Speaker 6: does doesn't want to go down there, so he says
Speaker 6: to him, you can continue talking. We can just talk
Speaker 6: about your past, to talk about your family. So he
Speaker 6: just encouraged him to talk. So there was an interesting
Speaker 6: ploy that he did that now all by himself in
Speaker 6: that room with Jeffrey Dahmer. He used that his Catholic upbringing,
Speaker 6: his experience in alcoholics anonymous. How did he use these
Speaker 6: aspects of his own personal life to be able to
Speaker 6: reach to Jeffrey Dahmer to plead to Jeffrey Dahmer to
Speaker 6: help in this investigation? And what was that help that
Speaker 6: they actually wanted once they did get this confession from him.
Speaker 3: Well, you know, he was using religion, he was using
Speaker 3: a little bit of family, he was using the idea
Speaker 3: of dreanking, and I mean, I mean he didn't really
Speaker 3: want to come off and he didn't really want Jeff
Speaker 3: to be sort of suddenly thinking, hey, if I just
Speaker 3: blame alcohol, then suddenly I'm not quite so responsible. Like
Speaker 3: he wanted him to sort of own it a little bit.
Speaker 3: But but yeah, I mean he really sort of, you know,
Speaker 3: sort of said, well, maybe this, you know, affected you,
Speaker 3: Like maybe all this drinking and everything affected you. And certainly,
Speaker 3: like in terms of all those the major things that
Speaker 3: happened in Dahmer's life, like you know, schooling and going
Speaker 3: on to college and then Army like everything, he'd washed
Speaker 3: out because he had this, you know, consistent drinking problem.
Speaker 3: So I think I think what Pat did was he
Speaker 3: actually shared a lot of his own story, which I
Speaker 3: can't really think of them and the detective homicide detectives
Speaker 3: that would do that, you know, like they kind of
Speaker 3: sort of they just want to hear from the suspect.
Speaker 3: They don't necessarily want to share anything about their own lives.
Speaker 3: But I guess for whatever reason, you know, Pat fufelt
Speaker 3: as though this is some way I can reach this
Speaker 3: this guy. And so some of that helped I saying
Speaker 3: in terms of just you know, kind of using a
Speaker 3: bit of it as an excuse, some of it as
Speaker 3: you know, a bit of you know, having him question
Speaker 3: why he was doing what he was doing. But really,
Speaker 3: as you said, just get him talking, just kind of
Speaker 3: get in to go through each of the stories of
Speaker 3: each of the men that he met, and how did
Speaker 3: he manage to convince them to come back, because don't forget,
Speaker 3: I mean, that's essentially how he operated. He wasn't going
Speaker 3: around abducting people from the street. He was making connections
Speaker 3: with people very quickly McMahon and saying, why don't you
Speaker 3: come back to my place and we'll have some drinks
Speaker 3: or we can watch a movie or whatever. And I mean,
Speaker 3: you know, that was kind of remarkable. They needed Dahmer though,
Speaker 3: they really needed Dahmer because back in ninety one, I
Speaker 3: mean sure DNA was accessible, but not nearly as accessible
Speaker 3: as it is now. And they didn't necessarily know ill.
Speaker 3: I mean, they didn't have like a list of potential
Speaker 3: victims because people hadn't I mean, some people had maybe
Speaker 3: been reported missing, but I don't think the Milwaukee police
Speaker 3: really took those missing reports all that seriously because I
Speaker 3: think they looked at these photos of these very strong,
Speaker 3: healthy looking men and saying, well, you know, whoever this
Speaker 3: guy tangled with, I'm sure this person you know, was
Speaker 3: the one that came out successful. They just didn't think
Speaker 3: of these as potential victims. Whereas Dahmer was making them
Speaker 3: very docile. He was giving them drinks, but they were
Speaker 3: laced with drugs. So these guys were very docile and
Speaker 3: willing to kind of just you know, be a victim
Speaker 3: for Dahmer. But yeah, they needed Dahmer to identify those
Speaker 3: people because between photographs and what Dahmer was telling them
Speaker 3: about dates, he's actually pretty good about remembering, Oh, I
Speaker 3: remember meeting this guy at the mall. You know was summertime.
Speaker 3: And this is basically the rules that I used to
Speaker 3: get him to come back to my apartment.
Speaker 6: This he's an opportunity to stop for a second for
Speaker 6: these messages.
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Speaker 6: We were talking about the ploys and the techniques that
Speaker 6: Patrick Kennedy employed to get this incredible confession, to be
Speaker 6: able to identify all of the victims in the end,
Speaker 6: and it took, like you say, to the six weeks
Speaker 6: speaking to them every day. One of the things that
Speaker 6: was instrumental was the what Jeffrey Dahmer felt when speaking
Speaker 6: to Patrick Kennedy. He did not want to He didn't
Speaker 6: want Patrick Kennedy to feel, to feel, Patrick Kennedy to
Speaker 6: judge him, and so Patrick Kennedy used a non judgmental
Speaker 6: attitude towards everything that Jeffrey Dahmer said, and even some
Speaker 6: of the times, as you write in this incredible detailed confession,
Speaker 6: that there was times he had to walk out and
Speaker 6: walk out of that room and didn't even believe what
Speaker 6: he was being told till he got confirmation. But the
Speaker 6: biggest thing that he used was that non judgmental attitude.
Speaker 6: And when Jeffrey looked at him or his partner later on,
Speaker 6: they had that look of no, not the disgust that
Speaker 6: they probably would feel, that they just had this non
Speaker 6: judgmental attitude.
Speaker 3: Yeah, Like I think it was, you know, everything that
Speaker 3: he was telling them, you know, from the point of like,
Speaker 3: oh I started to skin, you know, skin the victims,
Speaker 3: or I was you know, taking the bones away, or
Speaker 3: I decided you know, like, I really like this victim,
Speaker 3: so I wanted to experiment with eating this for you know,
Speaker 3: eating them. I mean, you can't I can only imagine
Speaker 3: what these affects are thinking, because I'm sure on the
Speaker 3: one hand, they thought this guy's crazy and I mean
Speaker 3: he's just you know, making up these stories. But as
Speaker 3: you know, and as they found out from you know,
Speaker 3: medical examiner and and sort of what they were finding
Speaker 3: in the apartment because of course, once they got him,
Speaker 3: you know, secured at the police station, they were starting
Speaker 3: to go through this apartment. Dahmer didn't even realize that
Speaker 3: right away, you know, he kind of sat up in
Speaker 3: his chair. I mean, they're going to my apartment. Now,
Speaker 3: you know, it's like, well, of course we found a
Speaker 3: separate edit you fridge. We got to find out what
Speaker 3: else is there. But yeah, I mean it was just like,
Speaker 3: you know, incredible, like just when you sort of think, okay, well,
Speaker 3: it couldn't possibly get any worse than this, it somehow did.
Speaker 3: But yeah, they absolutely they kept it professional. They kept
Speaker 3: it very you know, calm, soothing, and I mean partly
Speaker 3: it was Jeff like, I mean, he wasn't a belligerent,
Speaker 3: rude suspect I mean he was actually very polite. You know,
Speaker 3: he was, you know, kind of engaging, you know when
Speaker 3: they try to point out a little bit when he
Speaker 3: sort of had a bit of a sense of humor,
Speaker 3: you know. I mean, he wasn't an unpleasant person to
Speaker 3: have to spend. I mean, what he did was unpleasant,
Speaker 3: but I mean he himself was actually, you know, kind
Speaker 3: of just an ordinary guy. So probably wouldn't have gone
Speaker 3: quite so smoothly had he just said, you know, f
Speaker 3: the cops, I'm not talking to anybody, and you know,
Speaker 3: like started lying to them, you know, or are telling
Speaker 3: them exaggerating or maybe sort of not giving all the information.
Speaker 3: I mean, he did kind of omit things occasionally, but
Speaker 3: I mean he always came forward with the truth. You know,
Speaker 3: they if they asked him about something, then he would
Speaker 3: tell them. But as you said, you know, he was
Speaker 3: kind of worried. I mean, after all a sudden done,
Speaker 3: he was kind of worried about what they would think
Speaker 3: of him.
Speaker 6: M hm. In this incredible interrogation, Jeffrey Dahmer at some
Speaker 6: point gets real relaxed, and Detective Murphy and Patrick Kennedy
Speaker 6: listened to these incredible stories. But of course they want
Speaker 6: to go chronologically through all of his victims. So he
Speaker 6: starts with June nineteen seventy eight in Ohio, and he
Speaker 6: talks about being pulled over by an officer with garbage
Speaker 6: bags in the back seat. And he's not really pulled
Speaker 6: over any specific reason, but the officer, this Richard Munsey,
Speaker 6: is questioning him. So in this interrogation, Jeffrey Dahmer is
Speaker 6: telling them about an officer in Ohio in nineteen seventy
Speaker 6: eight that pulls them over. So tell us just a
Speaker 6: little bit more about this story that probably many people know.
Speaker 6: But also that Patrick Kennedy, once he hears this, needs
Speaker 6: to get verification of this story. So tell us just
Speaker 6: a little bit about the victim and then the verification
Speaker 6: of this incredible story.
Speaker 3: Sure well, there in June that this would have been
Speaker 3: around the time that jeff was graduating from high school.
Speaker 3: He was basically on his own. He was living in Ohio.
Speaker 3: He was living in this very nice house that his
Speaker 3: parents had. His parents were in the process of divorcing.
Speaker 3: They'd been kind of separated, and they were in the
Speaker 3: process of divorcing. His father had actually moved on with
Speaker 3: another woman who then became Jeffrey's stepmother, and in fact
Speaker 3: they were married for a very very long time afterwards.
Speaker 3: And then but his mom, she ended up taking the
Speaker 3: younger brother to Wisconsin. She wanted to go and be
Speaker 3: a little bit closer to her family. So here's jeff
Speaker 3: in Ohio, and you know, he's like eighteen nineteen years old.
Speaker 3: And I think I always suspected that he kind of
Speaker 3: arranged this a little bit that I think his mom,
Speaker 3: who was so upset with his dad, said, you know,
Speaker 3: like call your father and tell them that we're gone
Speaker 3: and that you're on your own here. I don't think
Speaker 3: he did that right away. I think he kind of
Speaker 3: just said, you know, I kind of been like being
Speaker 3: in this household by myself. There was access to booze,
Speaker 3: he could kind of come and go as he wanted.
Speaker 3: No one was really putting any pressure on him. So
Speaker 3: he was sort of living in this house for several
Speaker 3: weeks before his dad came and then just that he
Speaker 3: was living on his own and wondering where, you know,
Speaker 3: why why he didn't called for sooner. But anyways, while this,
Speaker 3: while this period of time was that he was on
Speaker 3: his own, he had been out driving and he picked
Speaker 3: up a hitchhiker, and there was a young man named
Speaker 3: Stephen Hicks, and he was actually on his way to
Speaker 3: a music festival, but he had his sum out, and
Speaker 3: so Jeff picked him up and they started chatting, and
Speaker 3: he said, why don't you come back to my house.
Speaker 3: I've got booze there. We could maybe smoke a little
Speaker 3: pot whatever and just kind of hang out, listen to music,
Speaker 3: kind of hang out for a while. So this guy
Speaker 3: went along with it, and so I think Jeff was
Speaker 3: quite attracted to the guy, and you know, they were
Speaker 3: having conversations about school, about summer music whatever, and drinking
Speaker 3: and just kind of hanging out and partying a little bit. Well,
Speaker 3: eventually this guy said, you know, I got to go
Speaker 3: because I want to get back onto the highway and
Speaker 3: continue onto my music festival. And Jeff didn't want him
Speaker 3: to go. He didn't want him to leave. So they
Speaker 3: ended up wrestling around and kind of fighting a bit,
Speaker 3: and Jeff picked up a like a barbell candle, so
Speaker 3: that the metal part of the barbell and struck this
Speaker 3: kid in the head and so he the course was unconscious.
Speaker 3: And then Jeff, I think he did some things first
Speaker 3: of all, and then he ended up strangling this young man,
Speaker 3: and he was quite freaked out. You know. Of course,
Speaker 3: this was his first time ever doing anything like this,
Speaker 3: and so he was, you know, I think, on the
Speaker 3: wine hands, very sexually excited, but at the same time,
Speaker 3: he was also terrified because what happens if somebody finds out.
Speaker 3: So he ended up destroying this young man. He cut
Speaker 3: up the body and there was into body parts, and
Speaker 3: he put these body parts into these big bags. And
Speaker 3: one night, very late, he was out driving and this cop,
Speaker 3: this officer Mundy, pulled him over. And I think the
Speaker 3: reason he actually stopped him was because it was like
Speaker 3: a quiet kind of country road and there was this
Speaker 3: one car that was kind of not really swerving, but
Speaker 3: it was kind of just not driving all that straight.
Speaker 3: So the guy's on a probably some teenager who's been drinking.
Speaker 3: I better pull him over. So sure enough it was Jeff,
Speaker 3: and you know, he was a young kid, teenager, and
Speaker 3: so he said to him, you know, have you been
Speaker 3: drinking tonight, young man? And Jeff said, well away. Earlier
Speaker 3: I was hanging out with a friend and we had
Speaker 3: a couple of beers. But you know, I'm not drunk now.
Speaker 3: And so the officer sort of had his flashlight and
Speaker 3: he's looking in the car and he's like, what's with
Speaker 3: all these bags in the back seat. So Jeff, very quickly,
Speaker 3: thinking on his feet, said well, actually it's their garbage bags,
Speaker 3: and that's where I'm headed now. I wanted to go
Speaker 3: to the dump. My mom asked me to do this earlier,
Speaker 3: and I'd forgotten, and she's really upset right now because
Speaker 3: she and my dad are going through a divorce, and
Speaker 3: I just thought this would kind of cheer her up.
Speaker 3: That's why I kind of, you know, did something that
Speaker 3: she had asked. So kind of a lame excuse, I guess.
Speaker 3: But anyways, somehow, with the charm and the politeness whatever,
Speaker 3: Jeff was able to sell this story. So the guy
Speaker 3: basically said, well, you know what, the dump is closed.
Speaker 3: You can't leave bags outside, so you better just head home.
Speaker 3: He did take the license plate information and the license
Speaker 3: you know of Jeff down on a note pad or whatever,
Speaker 3: but he basically just sent him on his way, no ticket,
Speaker 3: no citation, just a warning. And so Jeff made it home,
Speaker 3: and I guess she was so terrified about the idea
Speaker 3: of maybe being caught again that he actually unpacked all
Speaker 3: these bags and he crushed the bones and the body
Speaker 3: as much as he possibly could, and then he scattered
Speaker 3: what he could in the back woods behind this house
Speaker 3: in Ohio, so there was kind of a woodsy area,
Speaker 3: so he just kind of like put the body out there.
Speaker 3: And so fast forward thirteen years or so, and we're
Speaker 3: now in nineteen ninety one. Jeff's been arrested and he's
Speaker 3: in custody and he's explaining to the detectives of these
Speaker 3: victims and sort of how it all unraveled in terms
Speaker 3: of how he managed to find these men in Milwaukee.
Speaker 3: But he did say, I had this earlier killing which
Speaker 3: happened in Ohio. So he went through and he told
Speaker 3: them the whole story. So they said, well, we're going
Speaker 3: to have to bring somebody from Ohio just to verify,
Speaker 3: because they wanted to go through in Ohio missing records,
Speaker 3: you know, as far as missing men from that era
Speaker 3: from the late seventies, and to see how many people
Speaker 3: could fit that description. So this detective from Ohio in
Speaker 3: this period of time, when the detectives in Milwaukee are
Speaker 3: talking to Chess, they bring this detective in and he's
Speaker 3: got photos and they're out on the table and he's
Speaker 3: showing Dahmer, and Dahmer picks him out right away. He said,
Speaker 3: this is the guy right here, Stephen Hicks. And so
Speaker 3: that's you know, that's kind of how they identified that one.
Speaker 3: And when he was describing with this officer from Ohio
Speaker 3: exactly what happened, you know, like I killed them, and
Speaker 3: then I tried to get rid of the body in
Speaker 3: these garbage bags, I got stopped, and then I ended
Speaker 3: up just going home and scattering the bones and the
Speaker 3: body parts in my backyard. The officer who had come
Speaker 3: from Ohio later was talking with the two detectives and said,
Speaker 3: you know what that was me. I was the detective
Speaker 3: that stopped him. And it was actually Monsie that they
Speaker 3: in nineteen ninety one sent from Ohio to Wisconsin to verify,
Speaker 3: either verify or discredit what this guy was telling them.
Speaker 3: So they were kind of I mean, Murphy Patrick's partner
Speaker 3: was said to go, hey, you could have stocked this
Speaker 3: same way back in nineteen seventy nine. And the guy
Speaker 3: was horrified, of course, but Kennedy very wisely, i think,
Speaker 3: and very kindly said to him, you know what, he's lied,
Speaker 3: and he's fled a lot of people, so don't feel
Speaker 3: too bad. But when they did go back to Ohio
Speaker 3: and they searched the grounds of the backyard of this
Speaker 3: house where a Dahmer had lived as a young teenager,
Speaker 3: they did find actually the remains after all those years,
Speaker 3: and they actually found a little piece of a retainer
Speaker 3: that belonged to the victim. So between that they were
Speaker 3: able to go to the family who for thirteen years
Speaker 3: had no idea what happened to their their son, their brother,
Speaker 3: you know, their cousin just you know, he went off
Speaker 3: to a music festival and just disappeared and never heard
Speaker 3: it was never heard from again. Well, they finally were
Speaker 3: able to get the answers as to what happened and
Speaker 3: confirmed that he in fact was a victim back in
Speaker 3: nineteen seventy eight.
Speaker 6: Yes, and that's incredible. Also May twenty six, nineteen ninety one. Again,
Speaker 6: anyone that has ever looked at this Dahmer story is
Speaker 6: aware of this. Nine one one call woman calls to
Speaker 6: report a young man naked, beaten up, can't stand up,
Speaker 6: needs help. Meanwhile, and she gives this young man she
Speaker 6: thinks he is a boy, a windbreaker to cover up
Speaker 6: two teen girls come over as well, and the police
Speaker 6: officers come and basically don't really appreciate so much of
Speaker 6: the women telling them what to do or what they
Speaker 6: should look at. And they try to question the boy,
Speaker 6: but he is slurring his words. He can't really communicate
Speaker 6: to the police officers. And then Jeffrey Dahmer comes on
Speaker 6: the scene walking with a six pack and waltzes into
Speaker 6: this crowd of people and tells the police that it's
Speaker 6: his boyfriend, and certainly he's not young, and he's in
Speaker 6: his twenties and he's a boyfriend and often this has
Speaker 6: happened before. He's naked and drunk and runs out of
Speaker 6: the apartments and he's had to go get him. So
Speaker 6: the police, despite the women trying to intervene, go back
Speaker 6: to the apartment. And so Dahmer was able to convince
Speaker 6: them that it was his boyfriend by showing them photos
Speaker 6: of this consenting person in various provocative poses. He couldn't
Speaker 6: find the identification, but the police officers seemed to be impatient,
Speaker 6: or at least it seemed that Jeffrey Dahmer's explanation made
Speaker 6: a lot of sense, and they released this intoxicated or
Speaker 6: this young boy slurring his words, had not realizing that
Speaker 6: he was not realizing he was a boy and thinking
Speaker 6: he was an adult. And then they left, and of
Speaker 6: course the famous conversations with the nine on one officer
Speaker 6: and also the dispatcher for everyone to know that they
Speaker 6: were very callous about the event also though, but May
Speaker 6: twenty sixth, nineteen ninety one, very much like the June
Speaker 6: nineteen seventy eight, when Patrick Kennedy and Detective Murphy are
Speaker 6: listening to these confections. He's horrified to realize that again
Speaker 6: these police officers released this Latian boy back to the
Speaker 6: clutches of Jeffrey Dahmer. So he quickly.
Speaker 3: Helped him back to the apartment and right back into
Speaker 3: the hands of a serial killer. Yeah.
Speaker 6: Yeah, And so Patrick has again he's horrified because he
Speaker 6: knows that he's going to have to someone is going
Speaker 6: to have to confront these police officers, and this kind
Speaker 6: of information is going to be released, and these police
Speaker 6: officers are going to have to well, they will realize
Speaker 6: what they did that evening any kind of confirmation. Yeah,
Speaker 6: and you talked about Patrick Kennedy too, keeping Jeffrey Dahmer
Speaker 6: talking during this interview and Jeffrey did not want to
Speaker 6: talk to other people. There was, as you write, many
Speaker 6: or a couple times when there was people FBI agents
Speaker 6: wanted to talk to them. The attorney Boyle had sent
Speaker 6: his assistant, Wendy Petrickis, and Patrick Kennedy did an admirable
Speaker 6: job in telling her, well, he hasn't requested for an attorney,
Speaker 6: so we're not going to let you talk to him.
Speaker 6: We're not finished with our investigation. But then, as you write,
Speaker 6: a far more experienced her boss, attorney Boyle, comes down
Speaker 6: to the police station, and you write about how Patrick
Speaker 6: Kennedy deals with this attorney and his request to speak
Speaker 6: to his client. Tell us how Patrick Kennedy deals with
Speaker 6: this attorney and what this attorney actually gets as a result,
Speaker 6: maybe not what he wanted.
Speaker 3: Well, I mean I think that Boyle was basically just
Speaker 3: you know, like get my client out of there, you know,
Speaker 3: like arrest him if you're going to, but I don't
Speaker 3: want you talking to him anymore. And they basically just sick,
Speaker 3: you know, he's grown like I mean, you know, yeah,
Speaker 3: you've got to call from the dad and you know
Speaker 3: him he has been a client of yours previously for
Speaker 3: some other you know interractions that Jeff had had done.
Speaker 3: But you know, like we you know, he's willing to
Speaker 3: talk to us, and we are going to continue questioning him.
Speaker 3: And so I think Boyle, you know, I mean, he
Speaker 3: was really upset and frustrated, and you know, I mean,
Speaker 3: of course they don't they don't know all yet that's
Speaker 3: sort of coming. I mean, it's just sort of starting
Speaker 3: to unfold. So they don't really even know yet how
Speaker 3: bad it's getting. I mean, they just they just know
Speaker 3: it's bad, but they don't necessarily know the number of
Speaker 3: victims and what exactly Jeff was doing with these victims,
Speaker 3: and you know how many close calls there had been,
Speaker 3: you know, where Jeff maybe could have been caught earlier.
Speaker 3: You know, they don't know any of that yet. So
Speaker 3: I mean, I think Kat just really stood his ground,
Speaker 3: and I mean personally he knew like, I think I
Speaker 3: can get through to this guy. I think I can
Speaker 3: talk to Dahmer and I can get him to confess.
Speaker 3: I mean, he likes me. He's he's expressed, you know,
Speaker 3: like when I leave the room, he's where are you going?
Speaker 3: Are you coming back? Like he's very much. There was
Speaker 3: something in there. There was a rapport there and Pat
Speaker 3: was not just going to let the lawyer kind of
Speaker 3: come in and do his singing and dancing and risk
Speaker 3: away as the client. He was determined that this is gonna,
Speaker 3: you know, this is going to happen. Because Dahmer wanted
Speaker 3: to talk to the police. He said, he seems like
Speaker 3: he's ready to confess. So they agreed. They did agree
Speaker 3: that somebody, like some legal representation should be in the
Speaker 3: room and sorry the Dahmer went along with that as
Speaker 3: the detectives as well. And I guess from that point
Speaker 3: of view, it was like, you know, we don't want
Speaker 3: to we want to make sure that when this case,
Speaker 3: whatever happens, goes to court, we want to make sure
Speaker 3: that you know, uh, we haven't violated Jeff's right. But
Speaker 3: they didn't. I mean, he said, I want to continue
Speaker 3: talking to you. I know my lawyers here. I know
Speaker 3: he wants me to stop talking and to shut up,
Speaker 3: but I want to keep talking. And he said I
Speaker 3: want to help, Like at this point, I'm caught, there's
Speaker 3: really nothing I can do. I know I'm going to
Speaker 3: be going away for life. I want to help to
Speaker 3: to identify who these guys were and don't forget. You know,
Speaker 3: at this point, Dahmer is kind of like coming out
Speaker 3: of this you know, boozy drunken state. You know, he's
Speaker 3: sort of starting to realize like the implication of what's
Speaker 3: going to happen, and once he knows they're going through
Speaker 3: my apartment, all of my secrets are going to come out,
Speaker 3: you know, Like he was basically just yeah, I'm I'm
Speaker 3: going to do what I can to make amends as
Speaker 3: soon as I can. You know, there's really nothing he
Speaker 3: could do to to fully you know, be forgiven for
Speaker 3: what he had done by certainly not by the victims'
Speaker 3: families or anything, but I meant at least he could
Speaker 3: do I guess he felt was to identify who the
Speaker 3: victims were.
Speaker 6: Well, we kind of skip over the brilliance of Patrick
Speaker 6: Kennedy planting these ideas in Jeffrey Dahmer's head to the
Speaker 6: point where he leaves the room and comes back and
Speaker 6: Jeffrey Dahmer says, you know, basically, I think I know
Speaker 6: how to make amends. You know, after he plants these
Speaker 6: ideas that the only way to make amends to really
Speaker 6: again to do something favorable out of this situation. It
Speaker 6: was horrible was to identify the victims for the families
Speaker 6: so that they could have that peace of mind. And
Speaker 6: so he agreed to that. But Patrick planted all of
Speaker 6: these ideas for that something beneficial could happen from this.
Speaker 6: And what I also, you don't really write about, but
Speaker 6: we have to realize that Patrick Kennedy is a handsome man.
Speaker 6: He's six foot seven and two hundred and sixty five
Speaker 6: pounds with you, as you write, a very gentle nature. Now,
Speaker 6: Jeffrey Dahmer, in this interrogation, it's incredible how again, this vicious, remorseless,
Speaker 6: psychopathic killer is very vulnerable and childlike in that room.
Speaker 6: Even though he's an articulate, intelligent man, he is very vulnerable.
Speaker 6: And Patrick Kennedy at least uses that fact to be
Speaker 6: able to reach Jeffrey Dahmer at first, when like you said,
Speaker 6: he was in a sort of a drunken stupor still
Speaker 6: and then he kept coming out of it, and they
Speaker 6: kept feeding him coffee and cigarettes, and as you write
Speaker 6: as well, that cigarettes and coffee were again part of
Speaker 6: the motivation Jeffrey Dahmer thinking that he had a you know,
Speaker 6: had a nicotine addiction, so cigarettes and coffee and later
Speaker 6: on doughnuts and just a non judgmental, even friendly discourse
Speaker 6: many times. And as you write too that when he
Speaker 6: was writing out the confection, when they wanted to get
Speaker 6: all of the details so they were able to identify
Speaker 6: the victims, that those details, those incredible details were forthcoming.
Speaker 6: For Jeffrey Dahmer, he acted, you write, or Patrick writes
Speaker 6: that it was like therapy to him. He seemed like
Speaker 6: he was talking to a therapist during this entire again
Speaker 6: many many weeks of interrogation.
Speaker 3: Well, you kind of have to think, like all of
Speaker 3: this is kind of kept as inside Dahmer, and you know,
Speaker 3: regardless of what you think of him in terms of
Speaker 3: as a person, I mean, you know, there must have
Speaker 3: been some sort of I mean, he must have known, Okay,
Speaker 3: well I'm done. I mean, I'm going to be in
Speaker 3: prison and that's it. I'm We're going to see the
Speaker 3: light of day. And I also have to live with
Speaker 3: what I've done. People are going to be referring to
Speaker 3: me as a monster. My family, you know, they're going
Speaker 3: to be affected because of the last name and that
Speaker 3: that connection. You know, they're always go, oh, you know, Dahmer,
Speaker 3: you really did Jeffrey Dahmer, and you know, so, I
Speaker 3: mean there was definitely I think there must have been
Speaker 3: some relief in a way for Dahmer to just be
Speaker 3: able to kind of like get it all out, you know,
Speaker 3: like I mean, probably he in the worst way. He
Speaker 3: never thought he'd ever have to, or he wouldn't want
Speaker 3: to do that. But I think in that particular interrogation room,
Speaker 3: with that particular detective at work, I mean, Jeff could
Speaker 3: have all I mean, he could have shut down. That
Speaker 3: was sort of one option. The other one is that,
Speaker 3: you know, he was a very like kind of a
Speaker 3: charming guy, like he could be charming when he wanted to,
Speaker 3: very polite, you know, yes, or nostre, very deferential, and
Speaker 3: I mean he could have just like said all these
Speaker 3: nice things to Kennedy, but lied, you know. I mean,
Speaker 3: that's how he managed to get away with you know,
Speaker 3: the cop in Ohio and the cops on the street,
Speaker 3: with the young Layishan boy and other people where he
Speaker 3: was a you know, parole officers in the past, and
Speaker 3: other people where he was able to just kind of
Speaker 3: like a everything's a okay, nothing to see here, nothing
Speaker 3: to worry about here, you know what I mean, Because
Speaker 3: he was just sort of a nice guy. They all
Speaker 3: kind of a app you know. If anything, he was
Speaker 3: boring and bland, you know, as far as they were concerned,
Speaker 3: like nothing, this guy is not capable of really anything,
Speaker 3: you know, other than some of these little skirmishes and
Speaker 3: things that he had been involved with previously. So I mean,
Speaker 3: I always think it's a fine line because I know
Speaker 3: a few people have said to me, well, you know,
Speaker 3: I mean, once they had him, I mean, what else
Speaker 3: was he going to do? Of course he was going
Speaker 3: to confess. Not necessarily he a could have shut down.
Speaker 3: He also could have just lied and lied and lied,
Speaker 3: you know, and just denied at all, you know. But
Speaker 3: I mean, not only was he confessing. There's actually there
Speaker 3: was one large that they ended up dropping. Like they
Speaker 3: had a victim. They had I think they had a name,
Speaker 3: and he had actually identified somebody, but they couldn't find
Speaker 3: anything of this victim. Like in the other the cases
Speaker 3: of the other victims, there was either a skull, or
Speaker 3: there was a driver's license, or there was something that
Speaker 3: belonged or was part of the victim that they could say, Okay,
Speaker 3: he was he's guilty and he killed this person because
Speaker 3: we have something of that person. Well, there was one
Speaker 3: victim that they had absolutely nothing of that person, and
Speaker 3: so they decided to know what, We're not going to
Speaker 3: charge him for that because we really, you know, if
Speaker 3: it should come that, you know, he appeals or whatever,
Speaker 3: that could cause a problem later on because we don't
Speaker 3: really have any evidence of this. So he was actually
Speaker 3: confessing to crimes that he had committed where they really
Speaker 3: couldn't have pinned anything on him because they had no
Speaker 3: truly had no evidence of it than just his words.
Speaker 3: But they attempted a few times, you know, they sort
Speaker 3: of thought, this is this seems a little too easy,
Speaker 3: you know, like he's just kind of forthcoming and whatever
Speaker 3: it is we're asking him, he's telling us. And so
Speaker 3: they did attempt to try and trick him a couple
Speaker 3: of times, just to see if they could catch them
Speaker 3: in a lie something that they knew that they didn't
Speaker 3: think he knew that they knew. But every single time
Speaker 3: they tried to catch them or or came and a lie,
Speaker 3: he divided them. He was actually really, really brutally honest.
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Speaker 6: slash murder to start your ritual today. Now we're talking
Speaker 6: about some of the things that Jeffrey Dahmer was saying
Speaker 6: in this interrogation, this brilliant arrogation by Patrick Kennedy. He
Speaker 6: had gained Jeffrey Dahmer's trust. We always mentioned that there
Speaker 6: was times when they were asking questions, but this was
Speaker 6: further on in an investigation when they discovered that there
Speaker 6: was body parts in the fridge, and so they wanted
Speaker 6: to ask him about those body parts, about the idea,
Speaker 6: the notion that he would be eating some of his victims,
Speaker 6: and they asked him why he hadn't told them, why
Speaker 6: he hadn't divulged this material earlier. What was Jeffrey's Dahmer's
Speaker 6: response to that question.
Speaker 3: Well, basically, he was concerned that they would think less
Speaker 3: of him somehow, that he didn't want to admit that
Speaker 3: he'd been catabalizing some of the victims, you know, that
Speaker 3: that was just too horrible, and that they would probably
Speaker 3: start to judge him, or that they wouldn't want to
Speaker 3: talk to him anymore, and that you know, that was
Speaker 3: the end of that. So he didn't didn't admit that
Speaker 3: right away. He didn't tell them that, but when the
Speaker 3: medical examiner started talking to the detectives and saying, you know,
Speaker 3: like based on what you're he's telling you about numbers
Speaker 3: of victims and what we're finding, there's some discrepancy here.
Speaker 3: Plus we're finding like cuts of body parts in the
Speaker 3: fridge wrapped up like in butcher block paper like it's meat,
Speaker 3: and they weren't really finding a lot of food in
Speaker 3: the fridge, mostly just these packages. So I guess they
Speaker 3: kind of came to that conclusion. So they did ask
Speaker 3: him about that and said, you know, there's there's something
Speaker 3: else happening. Were you doing this? And then he did
Speaker 3: admit it, but he was kind of concerned that they
Speaker 3: were going to just say, hey, that's it, We're done
Speaker 3: with you and you know that that would just be
Speaker 3: really too too much, too too that he'd gone too far.
Speaker 6: Though. Also the about the boxes of myriadic acid, he
Speaker 6: also had this fifty seven gallon blue plastic what can
Speaker 6: you call a bin.
Speaker 3: Not a bin, drummer container, yeah, drum.
Speaker 6: Yeah, container Yeah, in his room. But what they asked
Speaker 6: them about the myriadic acid, but they also found a
Speaker 6: drill and drill bits. So now they in this interrogation
Speaker 6: there's also talk of what he does with the drill.
Speaker 3: Right, Well, they found these tools, and then they also
Speaker 3: had found like he had Dollar had this kind of
Speaker 3: a weird idea of eventually kind of building a bit
Speaker 3: of a shrine. He even had pictures that he drew
Speaker 3: out for them and that he had had and I
Speaker 3: guess they found in his notes where you know, he
Speaker 3: had sort of envisioned this, you know, big black chair
Speaker 3: almost kind of like Darth Vader, you know esque, and
Speaker 3: then he had these like skulls that were going to
Speaker 3: be kind of lined up, some of them were going
Speaker 3: to be painted, some of them were going to be natural.
Speaker 3: But he had this all kind of figured out, and
Speaker 3: so they did know this. So in the summer, these
Speaker 3: skulls that there were holes in them that had been
Speaker 3: where a drill had been used. So they said, you know,
Speaker 3: what's that about, and he said that Initially, before he
Speaker 3: actually was killing victims, what he really had wanted to
Speaker 3: do was to basically incapacitate a man that he liked
Speaker 3: and basically keep that person with him so they would
Speaker 3: kind of be half dead, half alive. That he would
Speaker 3: drill something and pour water into their brain and it
Speaker 3: would just kind of like just make them not be
Speaker 3: able to talk, communicate, fight, you know, whatever that they
Speaker 3: were just going to be. He could lead them around
Speaker 3: the apartment, if you will. He could set them in
Speaker 3: a chair, he could come home from work, tell him
Speaker 3: about his day. He could, you know, fix dinner while
Speaker 3: they're sitting the victims sitting there, you know, and you know,
Speaker 3: then he put them to bed and they could do
Speaker 3: things to the body. He didn't really want a dead body.
Speaker 3: He wanted an incapacitated body. But the few times that
Speaker 3: he did try this, it didn't work. Like one person
Speaker 3: he was actually able to keep alive for quite a
Speaker 3: few hours, but when he got home he had laid
Speaker 3: out this person on a bed and that by the
Speaker 3: time he got home, this person had died, so it
Speaker 3: was unsuccessful. And what he was trying to do with
Speaker 3: this drilling of you know, drilling and holes in the head,
Speaker 3: but essentially what I called it, or what I referred
Speaker 3: to it as he wanted like a zombie boyfriend, you know.
Speaker 3: He wanted somebody that he could love, that he could
Speaker 3: feel with the affectionate to him, but he could basically
Speaker 3: just sort of manipulate and do with what that person
Speaker 3: whatever he wanted. But it just that didn't work. So
Speaker 3: then he ended up going as far as drugging them
Speaker 3: and then suffocating them and then he would be able
Speaker 3: to do whatever he wanted with the body, because that
Speaker 3: would that was ultimately his goal, because he wanted the body.
Speaker 6: You you write very interesting thing that I'd never read
Speaker 6: before that he he said that the reason he wanted
Speaker 6: to rape them and he didn't want he didn't enjoy
Speaker 6: anal sex himself. He enjoyed all the other aspects of
Speaker 6: touching and kissing, oral sex, but he didn't like anal sex.
Speaker 6: So he wanted the ability to be able to ape
Speaker 6: them and do whatever he wanted with the body, but
Speaker 6: he did not want to have to reciprocate, especially that
Speaker 6: anal sex. So I see him seems like not great
Speaker 6: reasons for murder. But through this entire interrogation, Pat Kennedy
Speaker 6: gets him to ask him for his motivations. What is
Speaker 6: the motivation for keeping the heads? For example, he would.
Speaker 3: Ask hmmmmm, Well, you know, he had these kind of
Speaker 3: strange reasons for things. You know, sometimes it was well,
Speaker 3: I really liked this victim, you know, you know, I
Speaker 3: thought he was really sexy, and I liked his body especially,
Speaker 3: or you know, you know, there's other victims that he
Speaker 3: didn't really care so much about, so you know, he
Speaker 3: kind of just disposed of them, but not necessarily want
Speaker 3: to keep body part, maybe some other kind of little
Speaker 3: trophy just to remind himself of the encounter. But you know,
Speaker 3: he was he kept things like he kept skulls, and
Speaker 3: as I said, he was sort of had this idea
Speaker 3: of a shrine with that. Yeah, so he yeah, I mean,
Speaker 3: I don't think it's unusual for killers like Jeff to
Speaker 3: keep things. But in terms of his motivation, like it
Speaker 3: was kind of like what I mentioned earlier in that
Speaker 3: you know, he wanted a very compliant partner. He also
Speaker 3: didn't want those people to leave. That was his big thing.
Speaker 3: Like I think Dahmer had a lot of issues with
Speaker 3: regard to abandonment. And even this is maybe stemming from
Speaker 3: when he was a younger person in that you know,
Speaker 3: he was living at home with his family, his dad.
Speaker 3: He didn't come from a bad background, like I mean,
Speaker 3: his parents were carrying, they had money, There was some
Speaker 3: wealth there, you know, So I mean, I don't think
Speaker 3: that he and his brother kind of lacked for anything.
Speaker 3: But what they did have in terms of a family
Speaker 3: unit was a dad who was very much a workaholic
Speaker 3: and he was very very much involved with the work
Speaker 3: that he was doing, so he wasn't around a lot.
Speaker 3: And he also had a wife. And then therefore, Jeff
Speaker 3: and his brother had a mom who did suffer from
Speaker 3: mental illness, and so there were times when she was
Speaker 3: in a psychiatric hospital or the times that she was
Speaker 3: at home, sometimes she was you know, just not really available.
Speaker 3: Was that really present, because she'd be sleeping or she'd
Speaker 3: be have taken some medication, so she wasn't really you know,
Speaker 3: the times that Jeff remembers of his parents are mostly
Speaker 3: they were fighting. You know, that was the thing that
Speaker 3: he remembered the most. But you know, his dad was
Speaker 3: gone at different times. You know, he's either working or
Speaker 3: he was off with his girlfriend then became his wife.
Speaker 3: The mom left, you know that she just kind of
Speaker 3: threw up her hands with this marriage and she took
Speaker 3: off with the younger son. So there was like abandonment
Speaker 3: things where people were constantly leaving him. And so when
Speaker 3: he decided I want to try and find a partner,
Speaker 3: that was his thing, as long as they don't leave me.
Speaker 3: And so there was one insistance I mentioned in the
Speaker 3: book where he met somebody who had actually come in
Speaker 3: from out of town. I think they met at a
Speaker 3: bus stop, like a Greyhound bus bump or something, and
Speaker 3: this guy was in from Chicago, and so Jeff invited
Speaker 3: him to come and stay with him, and they went,
Speaker 3: you know and had some drinks and they went out
Speaker 3: and did some shopping, they made dinner. I mean, they
Speaker 3: had kind of like a weekend together almost, if you will.
Speaker 3: And I mean Jeff said it was like the closest
Speaker 3: thing to a really chip he'd ever really had. Well,
Speaker 3: Sunday night comes this guy, like, I got to get
Speaker 3: back to Chicago because I'm to do it work tomorrow,
Speaker 3: and that's when Jeff's acted, you know, He's like, I
Speaker 3: didn't want him to leave, so he said, we'll have
Speaker 3: one more drink, and that's when he laced it. The
Speaker 3: guy passed out, Jeff strangled him and that was it.
Speaker 3: He was gone, now, never to be seen again.
Speaker 6: What was contained in these interrogations, these confessions, though, was
Speaker 6: something not so understandable when you talk about, well, he
Speaker 6: just was a lonely guy and he wanted these people
Speaker 6: to stay with him, and that's why he killed them.
Speaker 6: But there is other things that don't jive with that
Speaker 6: so much, in that his sexual feelings for every bit
Speaker 6: of that dismemberment process he talked about slicing the body
Speaker 6: open from the neck to the genitals and pulling out
Speaker 6: the viscera and sticking on the chest and the poor
Speaker 6: cops that had to see those photographs of this outside
Speaker 6: of the body, and also that he had the particular
Speaker 6: interest in the hearts of many of these victims as
Speaker 6: well well, or at least a few of them anyway,
Speaker 6: And also just every bit of this he talked about,
Speaker 6: like intercourse with the viscera.
Speaker 3: So yes, yeah, there was some very very strange things
Speaker 3: going on there. And I mean again that does go
Speaker 3: back to Dahmer's you know, kind of childhood in that
Speaker 3: he was very interested in roadkill. You know, like, hey,
Speaker 3: he lived in this kind of like country type setting
Speaker 3: and he didn't refers anyone knows, he never killed any animals,
Speaker 3: but you know, he was very very interested in going
Speaker 3: and picking up road kill. He would, you know, stupid
Speaker 3: or scrape it off the road and throw it into
Speaker 3: a bag and bring it home. And he had this
Speaker 3: kind of like shed thing that was on their property
Speaker 3: that he would go and he would take these dead
Speaker 3: animals and you know, he would dismember them. And he
Speaker 3: liked the jars of different things that he would put
Speaker 3: things in, experimenting basically like putting acid in and seeing
Speaker 3: how long it would take for the fur and the
Speaker 3: skin to come off of say a cat, so and
Speaker 3: that just being left with the bones. Like he was
Speaker 3: really very interested in sort of what he called the
Speaker 3: insides of things, the insides of dead things. And a
Speaker 3: few people who you know, talk with them, psychiatrists, psychologists,
Speaker 3: those those kind of people who had that kind of
Speaker 3: experience and education. We're sort of thinking that, you know,
Speaker 3: like this interest in all this stuff about dead people
Speaker 3: or dead things and the insides of things kind of
Speaker 3: meshed around the time that he would have been maybe
Speaker 3: going through puberty. So somehow this sort of jived with
Speaker 3: his sexuality that he found. I mean, most people would
Speaker 3: find this completely distasteful, but I mean he found that
Speaker 3: sexually arousing those those inside organs or those those viscera
Speaker 3: pieces of the body. I mean, part of him had
Speaker 3: to be really drunk in order to do what he
Speaker 3: was doing, but I mean that was what he was
Speaker 3: very interested in. That was what he really was interested in,
Speaker 3: was the insides of dead things.
Speaker 6: As he said, absolutely, with this confession, through this interrogation,
Speaker 6: they were over the course of all those weeks, they
Speaker 6: were able to identify and for example, they had the
Speaker 6: Munsey come with photos and to come to Milwaukee to
Speaker 6: be able to speak with Patrick Kennedy and look at
Speaker 6: the evidence that Dahmer provided. But they were able to
Speaker 6: get closure on seventeen murders thanks to Jeffrey Dahmer, weren't they.
Speaker 3: Yeah? Yeah, And as they said, you know, like this
Speaker 3: was before DNA, this is before they had a list
Speaker 3: of potential victims. You know, they were really I think
Speaker 3: in a lot of ways kind of shooting in the dark.
Speaker 3: They had to find photographs, they had to you know,
Speaker 3: they did go and look through some missing missing people report,
Speaker 3: but they also had like mugshots, you know, And I
Speaker 3: mean it was just kind of like really kind of
Speaker 3: a scramble to sort of figure out and piece together
Speaker 3: who these victims were, because it wasn't just I mean,
Speaker 3: it was kind of a different story in a way,
Speaker 3: like if you think about say Bundy. I mean, there
Speaker 3: were bodies, right, there were bodies that were being found,
Speaker 3: and they had women victims that were being identified, and
Speaker 3: they but they didn't know who the killer was. You know,
Speaker 3: it was just these body parts, and they figured there
Speaker 3: was somebody that was out there attacking women of a
Speaker 3: certain age that looked a certain way. In Dahmer's case,
Speaker 3: like they come across Dahmer first, and then it's all
Speaker 3: kind of unfoolds after that, and then the sort of
Speaker 3: trying to piece together He's saying, oh, well, I said,
Speaker 3: well lot of men, you know, and this is kind
Speaker 3: of how I did it. And they're trying to figure out, Okay,
Speaker 3: who did you kill who? And how do we find
Speaker 3: out who those people are? And again, at a time
Speaker 3: when DNA was just not something that they could just
Speaker 3: you know, randomly, Oh, let's get this person in and
Speaker 3: maybe it's a relative of this person who says they're missing.
Speaker 3: You know. It was really really more of a puzzle
Speaker 3: in terms of trying to figure out who all these
Speaker 3: folks were. They were actually quite amazed at Dahmer's recall
Speaker 3: in terms of like he could say, oh, I remember
Speaker 3: meeting this guy at this place around this time, you know,
Speaker 3: and so they were like, wow, So I mean he's
Speaker 3: actually I mean, obviously these were meaningful encounters for Dahmer,
Speaker 3: but I mean he actually had a pretty good memory.
Speaker 4: M hmm.
Speaker 6: It's interesting too when he talks about living at his
Speaker 6: grandma's house and at first, you know, looking for work,
Speaker 6: and then and then also going to church with his
Speaker 6: grandma and you know, she was a very religious person.
Speaker 6: But on the weekends and knowing her schedule, he would
Speaker 6: meet men on Fridays, want to keep them late the Sundays.
Speaker 6: Knew the trash was going out Monday, so he routinely
Speaker 6: did things like picked them up, drugged them, dismembered them,
Speaker 6: destroyed them, disposed them, broke up the skeletons with a sledgehammer.
Speaker 6: He found ways of effectively disposing of his victims.
Speaker 3: M h, very much, so, very much so. I mean
Speaker 3: some he kept. I mean they were in his apartment,
Speaker 3: you know. But I mean between the said drums and
Speaker 3: you know, throwing away and flushing down the toilet some
Speaker 3: smaller pieces of body, you know, he was at and
Speaker 3: accountabilizing obviously that yeah. I mean there was very little
Speaker 3: I mean, aside from what they found in the apartment
Speaker 3: that he was hanging on to specifically. You know, it
Speaker 3: was a head, it was a skull, it was this
Speaker 3: bone or that bone because he liked the look of
Speaker 3: it or the way it felt, or you know, it
Speaker 3: was just something that meant something to him. But I mean,
Speaker 3: for the most part, he was actually able to dispose
Speaker 3: of most of his victims. And and no one kind
Speaker 3: of come across it and say, oh my god, you know,
Speaker 3: I think we've got body parts here. We better hopeful
Speaker 3: call of the police and then having them investigate and
Speaker 3: figuring out, you know, like how did this body get here?
Speaker 3: And who's our perpetrator. I mean, he he was not
Speaker 3: on anyone's radar, Like, I mean, there wasn't a though,
Speaker 3: I remember someone just recently saying to me, like, you know,
Speaker 3: how could you have gotten away with so much when
Speaker 3: people knew there was a serial killer in their midst.
Speaker 3: It's like they didn't know that there was a serial killer.
Speaker 3: I mean there was, Yeah, there was the missing men,
Speaker 3: you know that. I'm sure in some cases people were reporting,
Speaker 3: but again they were like, you know, this is a
Speaker 3: healthy young man, Like this man's not going to get
Speaker 3: into any trouble, Like he probably just ran off, or
Speaker 3: he decided he didn't want to live in Milwaukee anymore.
Speaker 3: You know, he's just gone. And they police didn't really
Speaker 3: do that much to sort of I mean, they might
Speaker 3: have taken a report or whatever, but I mean I
Speaker 3: don't think they were really searching for any of these
Speaker 3: these guys. There did seem to be a little bit
Speaker 3: of knowledge within the gay community, Like I remember reading
Speaker 3: or seeing an interview with somebody who said, you know,
Speaker 3: there would be guys that would come to these clubs
Speaker 3: and then every once in a while I'd be like, hey,
Speaker 3: we haven't seen so.
Speaker 6: And so in a while.
Speaker 3: I wonder where he is. But I mean, no one
Speaker 3: really suspected that anything was going on where they were
Speaker 3: being killed. Maybe just oh, they're probably not hanging around
Speaker 3: here anymore. They maybe they moved or you know, they're
Speaker 3: just maybe they're in a different area of the city.
Speaker 3: You know, they were able to come up with reasons why,
Speaker 3: you know, suddenly someone who was there one day was
Speaker 3: not the next.
Speaker 6: You rte that this the confession that he was giving,
Speaker 6: was leaked to the press by a janitor that worked
Speaker 6: in the District attorney's office. They thought it might have
Speaker 6: been Patrick Camas. He didn't say anything, didn't submit to
Speaker 6: any interviews, but this convention was leaked to the press.
Speaker 6: And this story, as anybody knows, was just massive because
Speaker 6: of the DeSales that were emerging. Heads and fridges and
Speaker 6: accounibalize accountable, cannibalism and necrophilia get everyone's attention and the
Speaker 6: pressly it really exploded over this case, didn't it.
Speaker 3: Absolutely, And because of the timing been occurring in like
Speaker 3: nineteen ninety one, that's when he was arrested, was in
Speaker 3: July of ninety one, so thirty years ago this summer
Speaker 3: for your information in case you didn't do the math,
Speaker 3: but yeah, so like thirty years ago, and like at
Speaker 3: that time, that's when like CNN and some of these
Speaker 3: twenty four hour news stations were just kind of kicking off, right.
Speaker 3: So I think when they, you know, there's this story
Speaker 3: of a potential serial killer in Milwaukee, they did. They
Speaker 3: had the world's media show up for all the reasons
Speaker 3: that you mentioned, but I think also too, just because
Speaker 3: of that cycling, they needed stuff to be showing, you know,
Speaker 3: hour after hour, and they needed cases to follow, and
Speaker 3: they needed a story where there was going to be
Speaker 3: developments and press conferences, and so I mean, I think
Speaker 3: this case, you know, as horrible as it was, and
Speaker 3: as terrible as it was for all the family members
Speaker 3: and victim's families, you know, the news media really kind
Speaker 3: of jumped on.
Speaker 6: It at the same time. And I remember remarking saying
Speaker 6: this to you as well as that Silence of the
Speaker 6: Lambs is huge and now turned into a real franchise.
Speaker 6: But Silence of the Lambs was a very very successful
Speaker 6: book and very successful movie just months before this. You know,
Speaker 6: real life, that's right, you know, life imitates art, right exactly.
Speaker 3: I think the movie came out in like February of
Speaker 3: nineteen ninety one, and Deaf was caught in July, so
Speaker 3: it's got People Magazine the week after he was arrested,
Speaker 3: referred to it as, you know, a real life Silence
Speaker 3: of the Lambs nightmare in Milwaukee, and so they really
Speaker 3: jumped on that, you know, the idea of a serial killer.
Speaker 3: And I mean, you know, people remember the cannibalizing and
Speaker 3: the necrophilia of Dahmer, but you know, there was a
Speaker 3: period in there where he was actually skinning some of
Speaker 3: his victims, and he had said to the detectives, you know,
Speaker 3: I thought it might be kind of cool to just
Speaker 3: wear the skin, you know, And I mean that's not
Speaker 3: that different from what the movie, the plot of Silence
Speaker 3: of the Lambs is, So yeah, definitely people made that
Speaker 3: connection of like, wow, you know, like what is going
Speaker 3: on in terms of like this tiny little apartment in
Speaker 3: Milwaukee and all this evil that just was happening.
Speaker 6: You know, now, Patrick Kennedy through this whole thing. There
Speaker 6: are people one psychologist says to him, Oh no, the
Speaker 6: FBI says to him and his partner Murphy that they
Speaker 6: were suffering from Stockhold's Stockholm syndrome, meaning they got too
Speaker 6: close to Jeffrey Dahmer and they couldn't be objective. Tell
Speaker 6: us what you write about the effect of this whole
Speaker 6: thing on Patrick Kennedy, but also calls for him to
Speaker 6: see a psychologist. Just tell us a little bit about that.
Speaker 3: Yeah, well, I think the FBI, I mean, you know,
Speaker 3: the way that they're portrayed in the book, I think is,
Speaker 3: you know really much how Detective Kennedy and his partner
Speaker 3: sort of saw this and she's like, you know, this
Speaker 3: is our case and we don't really need these guys
Speaker 3: to come in because they were saying all sorts of things.
Speaker 3: You know, you guys are getting too close to the suspect.
Speaker 3: You know, they were also quite amazed and thought really
Speaker 3: put forward the idea like how do you know he's
Speaker 3: operating alone? Like how do you know that he doesn't
Speaker 3: have like a partner who's complicit in all of this?
Speaker 3: And you know, they were making some suggestions that you know,
Speaker 3: Kennedy and his partner couldn't they couldn't really put their
Speaker 3: finger on like why that they just knew that that
Speaker 3: wasn't the case, like they guess, I guess because they
Speaker 3: felt they knew Jeff well enough to realize this guy's
Speaker 3: a looner, Like he doesn't have really any friends, and
Speaker 3: you know, certainly he's not going to serve bring a
Speaker 3: friend into what he was doing. I mean, what he
Speaker 3: was doing was all very on his own, very isolated.
Speaker 3: It was all for his own pleasure. He was a
Speaker 3: very selfish person, you know, and it was all just
Speaker 3: for meeting his own needs, even if it meant killing
Speaker 3: somebody else. So yeah, so I mean they kind of
Speaker 3: scoffed that a little bit, you know, in terms of
Speaker 3: they certainly didn't feel as that they were getting too
Speaker 3: close to the suspect. I mean they felt that they
Speaker 3: were using I wouldn't say manipulating Dahmer, but I mean
Speaker 3: that they were sort of using things that they felt
Speaker 3: that Dahmer would would respond to positively, and that they
Speaker 3: you know, they would just sort of keep you know.
Speaker 3: I think in a way too, it was almost like
Speaker 3: Patrick did be kind of become a friend to Jeff
Speaker 3: and maybe knowing like there was a guy who probably
Speaker 3: doesn't have a lot of friends, and if I kind
Speaker 3: of pretend to be his friend, you know, maybe it'll
Speaker 3: get us a little further. His wife, actually, Kennedy's wife,
Speaker 3: was quite concerned about his mental state and dealing with
Speaker 3: all of this case, and was really worried that he
Speaker 3: was going to actually become an alcoholic again, that he
Speaker 3: was going to start to drink again, even after being
Speaker 3: sober for a really long time. But he said, this
Speaker 3: case is just so awful, like I could see you
Speaker 3: being driven to drink, and Pat wasn't really worried about that,
Speaker 3: you know, and but she really is all I want
Speaker 3: you to go to counseling. I think he should see somebody.
Speaker 3: They actually did bring in, I think a psychiatrist or
Speaker 3: a psychologist or someone to come talk to them, but
Speaker 3: for the most part they kind of just said, you
Speaker 3: know what, we think we can handle this, you know.
Speaker 3: I mean, it was a pretty atrocious case, but I
Speaker 3: think for the most part they really did feel that
Speaker 3: they could handle it. The case really was with Kennedy
Speaker 3: for a long time after and fact, I would almost say,
Speaker 3: like right up until just before he died, because he
Speaker 3: and I were even discussing like maybe this could be
Speaker 3: a book someday. But yeah, I mean, for years and
Speaker 3: years afterwards, people who wanted to do an interview or
Speaker 3: to talk about Jeff and would come to the Milwaukee
Speaker 3: Police Department to say, who can we speak to He
Speaker 3: was like the Dahmer detective, you got to go, you
Speaker 3: got to talk to Kennedy. He's the Dahmer detective, and
Speaker 3: so you know, he was constantly sort of being asked
Speaker 3: about the case. What was Jeff really like? How did
Speaker 3: you manage to hear all of these horrible things? And
Speaker 3: like not want to throttle the guy. Kennedy went on
Speaker 3: to continue his work as a police officer and a
Speaker 3: homicide detective for ten years. He did that, I think
Speaker 3: up to two thousand and one, and then he decided
Speaker 3: he wanted to go back to school, and so he
Speaker 3: went back to college and he actually became a criminologist
Speaker 3: and then started teaching other people who were wanting to
Speaker 3: go into law enforcement. But he said to me one time,
Speaker 3: he said, you know, the first week when kids would
Speaker 3: start showing up, the students would start showing up, he said,
Speaker 3: I always had like three hundred students because they would say,
Speaker 3: oh my god, this is the guy, the Dahmer detective.
Speaker 3: You know. So he would say, you know, yeah, I'm
Speaker 3: going to kind of use a little bit about how
Speaker 3: we worked with Dahmer in order to fall the murders,
Speaker 3: you know, and figure out who all these people were.
Speaker 3: But it's not going to be the only thing I'm
Speaker 3: talking about you know, there's other things that I'm going
Speaker 3: to be teaching here. So you know, he was always
Speaker 3: kind of associated with this, you know, like he was
Speaker 3: always associated with the Dahmer case. And as I said,
Speaker 3: right up until you know, a month before or less
Speaker 3: than a month before he passed away, he was at
Speaker 3: a film festival that I met him at in Madison, Wisconsin,
Speaker 3: and it was about there was a documentary about the
Speaker 3: Dahmer case. So he was asked to be part of
Speaker 3: a Q and A. And then you know, he and
Speaker 3: I were talking first about my article and then possibly
Speaker 3: working on a book together. So I mean, this was
Speaker 3: a career changing, life changing case. And I always you know,
Speaker 3: to me, the remarkable or one of the remarkable things
Speaker 3: about it is that just that idea of how like
Speaker 3: a phone call or a certain thing can happen to
Speaker 3: you and it can just change the trajectory of your life.
Speaker 3: You know, he gets this call, he and his partner
Speaker 3: there next step on the run. Okay, homicide, potential homicide.
Speaker 3: You guys have to go check it out. But I
Speaker 3: mean it could have been another detective just as easily, right,
Speaker 3: But here it was Patrick, and here he happened to
Speaker 3: be the right detective for this particular suspect, and then
Speaker 3: they went from there.
Speaker 6: There was talk, and there always would be when you
Speaker 6: get somebody like this, it's accused of seventeen murders, that
Speaker 6: there's other jurisdictions that are interested in potentially speaking to him.
Speaker 6: One was because he did do a military term in Germany,
Speaker 6: that they might want to speak to people that in
Speaker 6: there about unsplved murders and clear their books. But it
Speaker 6: was very interesting that you write how Jeffrey Dahmer responded
Speaker 6: the things like a request from Hollywood, Florida police regarding
Speaker 6: the disappearance and murder of Adam Walsh, who was found
Speaker 6: much later, just his head was found nineteen eighty one,
Speaker 6: disappearance from a seer store, which I have everybody knows
Speaker 6: is that John Walsh then became this victim's advocate and
Speaker 6: America's most wanted the host of him, producer or co
Speaker 6: producer of that program. What was Jeffrey Dahmer's response to
Speaker 6: that there was other victims and other jurisdictions despite his confession, Well.
Speaker 3: You know, well, I guess I guess he felt as though,
Speaker 3: like I'm telling you guys everything, you know, like I
Speaker 3: told you everything that you need to know, and you know,
Speaker 3: all the victims that I've explained and described, you know,
Speaker 3: these are the only victims that there are. I don't
Speaker 3: think any police anywhere they came across a killer like him,
Speaker 3: you know, anyone who'd committed more than one murder would
Speaker 3: And also to like say, you know, not a domestic
Speaker 3: murder for example, where a spouse is killing another spouse,
Speaker 3: but when it's like a stranger on stranger kind of case,
Speaker 3: I think that it's pretty much protocol that they will
Speaker 3: do a history of who that person is, all the
Speaker 3: different places that they lived and where, all the different
Speaker 3: cities that they were in and maybe visited during this
Speaker 3: period of time that they think crimes are being committed,
Speaker 3: and they will see are there any other victims homicide
Speaker 3: and unsolved cases where you know, there's sort of things
Speaker 3: match up in terms of, you know, the kind of
Speaker 3: victim that was profiled, or certain circumstances or mo's you know,
Speaker 3: is there anything that's similar that we can maybe see
Speaker 3: if this person happened to be there and could have
Speaker 3: potentially been responsible for that current unsolved crime. They did
Speaker 3: know that Patrick had been in Florida, and it was
Speaker 3: around that time that Adam had gone missing. And I
Speaker 3: guess because of the fact that they found Ahead and
Speaker 3: then when they were investigating Jeff ten years later, they
Speaker 3: were head related. I mean they found a head in
Speaker 3: the fridge and they found skuld So they just really
Speaker 3: felt like, this is a good tip. You know, we
Speaker 3: really think that we've got somebody here. So they asked
Speaker 3: him about it. They brought people from that police department
Speaker 3: to Milwaukee to sort of question jeff and ask him
Speaker 3: about it. He was actually very offended, you know, because
Speaker 3: he said, you know, these are like, this is a
Speaker 3: little boy, this was like a six year old boy,
Speaker 3: because I'm only interested in men. They did point out
Speaker 3: to him that some of his victims had been, you know,
Speaker 3: mid teen age, but he always maintained I thought they
Speaker 3: were older. Like there was a fourteen year old. He
Speaker 3: thought he was like more like eighteen or nineteen, and
Speaker 3: another one that was seventeen. He thought it was in
Speaker 3: his early twenties. When he saw the picture of Adam Wall,
Speaker 3: she said, this is like a little kid, and I'm
Speaker 3: not interested in little kids.
Speaker 6: Yes, you wrote too that Jeffrey Dahmer is very concerned
Speaker 6: about what Patrick Kennedy thought of him, and also Detective Murphy,
Speaker 6: but also society at large and his family would think
Speaker 6: once they discovered all the details of his murders and
Speaker 6: the other details like necrophilia. But despite that he had
Speaker 6: received correspondence while he was in jail. Was he surprised
Speaker 6: at the celebrity itself and the kind of celebrity that
Speaker 6: he received.
Speaker 3: To be honest, I don't really know. I mean, I
Speaker 3: guess initially it probably did surprise him a little bit
Speaker 3: because he was coming to these interrogation meetings in the
Speaker 3: interrogation room, and he was saying, you know, I'm getting
Speaker 3: all these letters. I'm getting somebody who's asking me to
Speaker 3: review a book about another serial killer, you know. And
Speaker 3: I think after he was incarcerated, you know, he was
Speaker 3: like the most infamous prisoner they had where he was,
Speaker 3: where he was being kept, and so he was getting
Speaker 3: all these letters and everything. So I think initially probably
Speaker 3: would be the same for anybody, except for those that
Speaker 3: are really seeking out publicity. Some serial killers really love
Speaker 3: the publicity that they get. But I mean, in Jeff's case,
Speaker 3: I think it was pretty much benign about the whole thing.
Speaker 3: But once he did start to get people wanting to
Speaker 3: correspond with him, or sending pictures or saying things like
Speaker 3: you know, like they just were interested in him because
Speaker 3: of the celebrity, I guess. But you know, I think
Speaker 3: initially it kind of was surprising to him and puzzling.
Speaker 3: He didn't really understand it. But then as time went on,
Speaker 3: I think he kind of enjoyed it a little bit.
Speaker 3: You know, like they said that somebody had gone to
Speaker 3: see him when he was in prison, well not gone
Speaker 3: to see him, but had gone to see another person
Speaker 3: in prison and happened to see Jeff when he was there,
Speaker 3: and they said, you know, he's you know a little
Speaker 3: bit different than when they had first met him. You know,
Speaker 3: like he was he was well known in that prison.
Speaker 3: You know, people would walk by and be whispering, Oh,
Speaker 3: that's Dahmer. You know, that's Jeffrey Dahmer, or Hi Jeff.
Speaker 3: You know, everyone seemed to know who he was and
Speaker 3: what his name was. For the first part of his incarceration,
Speaker 3: he was in isolation. But you know, he was not
Speaker 3: happy in prison. I mean, he said, I deserve to
Speaker 3: be here. In fact, he felt he deserved to die
Speaker 3: for what he had done. But he said, you know,
Speaker 3: they don't have the death penalty in Wiscon and so
Speaker 3: he was going to be facing years and years of
Speaker 3: his life in jail, probably the rest of his life
Speaker 3: in jail. And he was just, you know, like he
Speaker 3: didn't like it there. He was not happy there. So
Speaker 3: eventually he did ask to be put into the general population,
Speaker 3: and they all said to him, like the officials at
Speaker 3: the prison said, you know, it's a death sentence, Jeff.
Speaker 3: You know you are a marked man. People don't like
Speaker 3: you here, you know, because of the celebrity, because you're
Speaker 3: so famous. You know, we don't want to do that
Speaker 3: to you. But he insisted, and he said I'll take
Speaker 3: my chances. So I think he knew that actually he
Speaker 3: was marked and that someone would eventually get him. And
Speaker 3: when he was attacked, he actually didn't have any defense
Speaker 3: wounds on him at all. And that's a very hard
Speaker 3: thing to do. If someone's attacking you with something, you know,
Speaker 3: your instinct is to stop that right, to stop the blows.
Speaker 3: And he didn't have any marks on him, any bruises
Speaker 3: or anything. So he basically allowed himself to be beaten.
Speaker 6: It was you do write that he said that he
Speaker 6: had found religion in prison, found God in prison. So
Speaker 6: he continued, I guess with the work that Patrick Kennedy
Speaker 6: did saying that listen, this is how you can make
Speaker 6: amends to God and to these people's you know, victims
Speaker 6: of these families, but most importantly to God. So it
Speaker 6: seemed like Jeffrey Dahmer went along that path while he
Speaker 6: was in prison and then must have contributed to the
Speaker 6: decision for him to take himself out of protective custody,
Speaker 6: as you say, spite advice and contrary.
Speaker 3: Yeah, I think that in the end, you know, he
Speaker 3: did find some peace, some you know, whatever piece he could,
Speaker 3: you know, through religion. Like he seemed to get quite
Speaker 3: involved in the you know that with the prison chaplain
Speaker 3: there got to know him pretty well. And I think,
Speaker 3: you know, I think that I mean, he was very shy,
Speaker 3: like jeff was a very shy person, but I mean
Speaker 3: I do think he liked to have these kind of conversations,
Speaker 3: you know, and to hear what other people thought about
Speaker 3: religion and you know kind of how that fit into
Speaker 3: his mindset and and you know, I mean I guess
Speaker 3: too it was something to do, maybe something to focus
Speaker 3: on while he was in prison.
Speaker 6: It's very interesting too when you write that Kennedy observes
Speaker 6: when Jeffrey Dahmer recalls and recounts the crimes, especially when
Speaker 6: they've got him to go through chronological order and then
Speaker 6: remember everything he could, so he undertook its task very seriously.
Speaker 6: And then Patrick noticed that he would go into sort
Speaker 6: of a trance almost reliving some of the stuff. But
Speaker 6: he would definitely sound almost robotic and be in a
Speaker 6: trance recalling what he had done so long before.
Speaker 3: Right almost you know, very emotionless, really just kind of
Speaker 3: you know, with the facts, you know, and not really
Speaker 3: sort of expressing remorse, you know. I mean, I think
Speaker 3: he was remorseful, but I don't think he really expressed
Speaker 3: it when he was describing what he was doing. It
Speaker 3: was very mechanical the descriptions.
Speaker 6: Yeah, it's interesting to the support that his family still
Speaker 6: had for him during this and then afterwards.
Speaker 3: M Yeah, well, his dad I think is probably the
Speaker 3: most visible and the most vocal in terms of supportive
Speaker 3: jeff and and you know, he kind of came out
Speaker 3: right from the beginning of you know, very apologetic to
Speaker 3: the victims of the families and apologizing really for what
Speaker 3: his son had done, but you know, he never stopped
Speaker 3: caring and loving his son. I think Lionel Jeffrey's dad,
Speaker 3: Lionel Dahmer, really just truly believed that there was mental
Speaker 3: illness and that you know, he had gotten mental illness
Speaker 3: from his mom's side of the family, and that that
Speaker 3: had somehow affected jeff In in terms of what he became.
Speaker 3: His brother kind of disappeared, he changed his name and
Speaker 3: as far as I know, I mean, he might keep
Speaker 3: in touch with the family, but I mean, I don't
Speaker 3: think he has anything to do with jeff The mom apparently, Joyce,
Speaker 3: she was living in California. She's passed now, but she
Speaker 3: initially like everything was sort of happening when it was
Speaker 3: all unfolding in Milwaukee, and they were sort of, you know,
Speaker 3: day after day discovery more and more. She retreated. She
Speaker 3: didn't really have anything to do with him at that point,
Speaker 3: but she did get in touch with him as he
Speaker 3: was proceeding to court and then afterwards, like she would
Speaker 3: have a Sunday night or every second Sunday night calls
Speaker 3: with him once he was in prison. So she did
Speaker 3: kind of rally around and support him towards the end,
Speaker 3: not what he did obviously, but just in terms of like,
Speaker 3: this is my son and when he was killed, she said,
Speaker 3: you know that that should make everybody happy. Now you
Speaker 3: know he's been he's been beaten to death and he's
Speaker 3: dead now, so that should you know, that should put
Speaker 3: everybody's mind at ease. And I mean she was saying
Speaker 3: this in kind of a angry kind of a way.
Speaker 3: You know, I think she believed it, you know, I mean, yeah,
Speaker 3: he was you know, he deserved to be in prison
Speaker 3: for all this time, but he didn't deserve to die
Speaker 3: the way he did.
Speaker 6: Yeah, And so tell us just a little bit about
Speaker 6: this manuscript. Just tell us a little bit more about
Speaker 6: your interaction with Patrick Kennedy's widow and this project here
Speaker 6: presently growing domer.
Speaker 3: Yeah, well, I after I had done this article, and
Speaker 3: this is after, you know, pat had passed away. He
Speaker 3: had a heart attack at home and he was by himself. Actually,
Speaker 3: because the widow that I'm talking with, her name is Patricia.
Speaker 3: This is actually Patrick's second wife. So this is not
Speaker 3: the wife that he was married to during the time
Speaker 3: that he was investigating Dahmer. That was his first wife
Speaker 3: and the mother of his three children. But this second
Speaker 3: wife Patty is the one that I was dealing with.
Speaker 3: And so after Patrick's passing, and I had sent her
Speaker 3: a message just really express expressing my shock and remorse
Speaker 3: and you know, sadness that she had lost him so suddenly,
Speaker 3: so abruptly. He was only fifty nine years old, he
Speaker 3: had had just had like a little bit to go.
Speaker 3: Maybe a month earlier his sixth grandchild was born. So
Speaker 3: I mean, this was just, you know, a man kind
Speaker 3: of cut out in the middle of his life. And
Speaker 3: so I was really shocked by the whole thing and
Speaker 3: really kind of quite upset. So I expressed this to her,
Speaker 3: but I said, you know, I do want to go
Speaker 3: with the article, and so I said, once it's done
Speaker 3: and published, I will send it to you. So I did,
Speaker 3: and she came back to me and said, you know,
Speaker 3: like you did a nice job in terms of, you know,
Speaker 3: really kind of getting a good idea of sort of
Speaker 3: the relationship between Dahmer and Kennedy. And she said, you know,
Speaker 3: I'd like you to just take the notes, take everything
Speaker 3: that Pat lent you or gave to you, and just
Speaker 3: do whatever you can with it. So it took a
Speaker 3: couple of years to kind of sort of put it
Speaker 3: all together. I mean, it's all Patrick's voice, but I
Speaker 3: mean there was just some areas that needed to be
Speaker 3: kind of, you know, organized and coordinated and something sleshed out.
Speaker 3: There was a quite a bit of the personal life
Speaker 3: part of his story that I thought, Matthew, let's just
Speaker 3: stick with this investigation. So I caught that out, and yeah,
Speaker 3: basically just really wanted to kind of tell the whole
Speaker 3: story of Dahmer, but also to use it as an
Speaker 3: opportunity to be a bit of a legacy to Kennedy
Speaker 3: as well. So just at the back there's a little
Speaker 3: bit of a very brief bio about Patrick's life and legacy,
Speaker 3: and yeah, just basically it kind of just all came together. Initially,
Speaker 3: I had some help, and this book did come out
Speaker 3: initially in nineteen or sorry, twenty sixteen with a titled
Speaker 3: Dahmer Detective, but it was very very small print runs,
Speaker 3: but a lot of demand for it, a lot of
Speaker 3: people contacting me and saying, you know, I'd love to
Speaker 3: get my hands on a copy of that book if
Speaker 3: it's possible, And just through some mutual friends that are
Speaker 3: into true crime and really read a lot of it,
Speaker 3: I was able to connect with the fantastic folks that
Speaker 3: while Blue Press, and they took a look at it
Speaker 3: and said, yeah, well we'll reissue it for sure. So
Speaker 3: that's how that all kind of came about. And that
Speaker 3: came about very quickly, Like it was just earlier this
Speaker 3: year that I had sent them some stuff with the
Speaker 3: idea of you know, hey, would you guys like to
Speaker 3: do something with this? That they came back and said absolutely.
Speaker 3: And I think also to being the thirtieth anniversary, there's
Speaker 3: also the Netflix film that's going to be coming out
Speaker 3: I think next year about Dahmer, like an episodic show
Speaker 3: about Dahmer. So, you know, it's amazing to me that,
Speaker 3: you know, there's still so much interest in this story,
Speaker 3: but there really is. There's a lot of people who
Speaker 3: are quite fascinating by Dahmer, interested to know more about
Speaker 3: him and trying to figure out like why he was
Speaker 3: the way he was. I don't know if this book
Speaker 3: helps to that extent, but certainly by having access to
Speaker 3: somebody that really did get to know Dahmer very well
Speaker 3: and talk about his crimes and sort of what happened there,
Speaker 3: I think that that's, you know, an important part of
Speaker 3: Patrick's story, and it was I didn't want it to
Speaker 3: not have anything happened to it because he passed away.
Speaker 3: I said, you know, there's no reason why his story
Speaker 3: can't still come out. So I made it kind of
Speaker 3: a personal labor of Love's mission to get Patrick's story
Speaker 3: out there anyway I could.
Speaker 6: Absolutely, it's an extraordinary look at one of the most
Speaker 6: brilliant police investigations ever and one of the most important ones,
Speaker 6: given the gravity of everything and what was at stake,
Speaker 6: because if a lawyer might have been able to speak
Speaker 6: to him, especially given that the DNA without his cooperation,
Speaker 6: there's just no way this story would been told. But
Speaker 6: also the identification of many of those victims. It's also
Speaker 6: a glowing tribute to Patrick all of his police work,
Speaker 6: and also just a tribute to what he was able
Speaker 6: to gain from Jeffrey Dahmer. And now this book, Grilling
Speaker 6: Dahmer is for all those people that think they know
Speaker 6: about the Jeffrey Dahmer story. Without this interrogation, and without
Speaker 6: Patrick Kennedy's interrogation, we would not get to realize so
Speaker 6: many of the things that we now believe and know
Speaker 6: about Jeffrey Dahmer. So I think this is essential reading
Speaker 6: Grilling Dahmer for anybody that thinks they know the entire story.
Speaker 6: So I want to thank you very much Robin Maharaj
Speaker 6: for coming on and talking about your new book, Grilling Dahmer,
Speaker 6: The Interrogation of the Milwaukee Cannibal on Wild Blue Press
Speaker 6: and just tell us where they might take a look
Speaker 6: at this, and also when is the release date?
Speaker 3: Well, it's coming out later this year. I don't know
Speaker 3: if I have the exact release date. But people can
Speaker 3: actually order the the e book that's available on Amazon,
Speaker 3: and they can also go I think go right through
Speaker 3: the publisher, so Wildloopress dot Com and yeah, I think Amazon,
Speaker 3: and it'll be available I'm sure in bookstores and yeah,
Speaker 3: it'll be out there.
Speaker 6: And the ebook is available right now.
Speaker 3: It is available now.
Speaker 6: Yeah, Okay. I want to thank you very much Robin
Speaker 6: Mahraj Grilling Dahmer, The Interrogation of the Milwaukee Cannibal. It's
Speaker 6: a brilliant book. Thank you so much for this interview.
Speaker 6: You have a great evening. Good night.
Speaker 3: Yeah, thanks Dan, take care, Bye bye bye.
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