WEBVTT 1 00:00:00.120 --> 00:00:03.279 Hello, Hi, it's the old to do list you found 2 00:00:03.359 --> 00:00:06.480 tucked in a book, haunting and taunting you like a creep. 3 00:00:06.839 --> 00:00:09.720 Let's talk creepiness. Is this a study? This is a study? 4 00:00:09.759 --> 00:00:12.839 Shirt iss. Did it have a name? No, it didn't. 5 00:00:13.000 --> 00:00:16.600 It's too niche to listen. We very very rarely hear 6 00:00:16.760 --> 00:00:20.359 at ologies have to coin an ology. Usually there's something 7 00:00:20.359 --> 00:00:22.120 in the literature. But in this case I had to 8 00:00:22.160 --> 00:00:23.719 do it, and it took me a while, and then 9 00:00:23.719 --> 00:00:27.559 I figured it out. So surpo means to creep in Latin, 10 00:00:27.960 --> 00:00:32.240 like a serpent, and this expert kind of blazed a shadowy, 11 00:00:32.320 --> 00:00:36.439 overgrown trail to study what makes something creepy? Why are 12 00:00:36.439 --> 00:00:39.479 some dolls creepy? Why does AI creep you out? How 13 00:00:39.479 --> 00:00:41.759 do you know if you are creepy? When isn't a 14 00:00:41.880 --> 00:00:45.359 version to creepiness unfair? And when is it warranted? And 15 00:00:45.399 --> 00:00:47.560 where does this come from in our lineage? So we're 16 00:00:47.560 --> 00:00:49.159 going to get to that in just a second. But first, 17 00:00:49.159 --> 00:00:51.479 thank you to the patrons at patreon dot com slash 18 00:00:51.560 --> 00:00:54.359 ologies who contribute as little as a dollar a month 19 00:00:54.439 --> 00:00:56.759 to support the show, and they leave their questions even 20 00:00:56.759 --> 00:00:59.560 in audio before we record. Thank you to everyone out 21 00:00:59.600 --> 00:01:03.240 there where Ologies Merch from ologiesmerch dot com. Also thank 22 00:01:03.280 --> 00:01:06.400 you for lifting our spirits out of the muck with 23 00:01:06.519 --> 00:01:09.239 your sweet reviews which I read every week, such as 24 00:01:09.280 --> 00:01:12.920 this just left one from it's Rosa reading, who wrote pottery. 25 00:01:13.280 --> 00:01:14.519 Have I ever cared before? 26 00:01:15.000 --> 00:01:15.040 No? 27 00:01:15.719 --> 00:01:18.959 Was I riveted to your latest episode? Yes. Rosa also 28 00:01:19.000 --> 00:01:21.079 said in the review that it was so nice to 29 00:01:21.079 --> 00:01:23.159 meet you recently in Reno, where I had given a 30 00:01:23.200 --> 00:01:25.719 talk and agreed it's always wonderful to hang out with 31 00:01:25.760 --> 00:01:29.359 oligites before or after a keynote or show or during. 32 00:01:30.000 --> 00:01:32.840 Also fun surprise, if you're in New York, mark the 33 00:01:32.920 --> 00:01:37.079 calendar for Monday November seventeenth. I'm doing my first ever 34 00:01:37.159 --> 00:01:39.920 live show there piloting it, so please save the date 35 00:01:40.000 --> 00:01:43.200 Monday November seventeenth in New York. Patrons will get all 36 00:01:43.200 --> 00:01:46.000 the details and the ticket link first, just in case 37 00:01:46.000 --> 00:01:48.959 you're signed up at Patreon dot com. Slash Ologies also 38 00:01:49.040 --> 00:01:50.799 thank you to sponsors of the show for making it 39 00:01:50.840 --> 00:01:53.519 possible for us to donate to a cause of theologists 40 00:01:53.560 --> 00:01:55.200 choosing every week get value. 41 00:01:55.239 --> 00:01:58.359 You can't argue with Ottesco with their amazing club card crisis. 42 00:01:58.560 --> 00:02:01.000 Serve up something special with our finest meal deal for 43 00:02:01.079 --> 00:02:03.680 two starring one main, two sides and dessert for only 44 00:02:03.719 --> 00:02:06.840 sixteen EU row like succulent board be approved. Rush Angus 45 00:02:06.799 --> 00:02:09.639 strip loin steaks with pepper corn butter or Delicious Virus 46 00:02:09.719 --> 00:02:12.879 Chicken Parmeshama served with creamy potato grit term and her 47 00:02:12.919 --> 00:02:16.639 mix of rainbow root vegetables and enjoy Goozillionaire or Soldier 48 00:02:16.719 --> 00:02:19.879 Caramel cheesecake. Can't argue with that shop in store or 49 00:02:19.919 --> 00:02:23.599 online Tesco. Every Little Helps available at most stores, prices 50 00:02:23.680 --> 00:02:24.479 very in express. 51 00:02:24.680 --> 00:02:27.400 You're on the bus an hour from home, in bumper 52 00:02:27.439 --> 00:02:30.719 to bumper traffic, creeping forward a few inches at a time, 53 00:02:31.360 --> 00:02:36.599 someone's kids are screaming, and suddenly your back is too. Luckily, 54 00:02:36.719 --> 00:02:40.400 Panadal extra film coated tablets are boosted by caffeine and 55 00:02:40.479 --> 00:02:42.719 they get to work in as little as ten minutes 56 00:02:43.120 --> 00:02:46.879 for powerful relief. That's more than just paracetamol. That's one 57 00:02:46.960 --> 00:02:50.919 for Pana doll speed based on absorption data contains paracetamol. 58 00:02:51.000 --> 00:02:52.439 Always read the label or leaflet. 59 00:02:55.000 --> 00:02:57.520 Okay, let's get into it. This guest is a professor 60 00:02:57.520 --> 00:03:01.039 emeritis of psychology and Knox College in Illinois, and studied 61 00:03:01.080 --> 00:03:05.039 psychology at King's College, got a PhD in experimental psychology 62 00:03:05.039 --> 00:03:08.280 from the University of Maine. They focus on human social 63 00:03:08.280 --> 00:03:12.919 behavior from an evolutionary perspective, why do we feel what 64 00:03:12.960 --> 00:03:15.919 we feel? And Yes, for this episode, we'll talk about 65 00:03:15.960 --> 00:03:19.800 their work in creepiness. So let's dive into that as 66 00:03:19.800 --> 00:03:22.719 we kick off a month of Spootober episodes just to 67 00:03:22.800 --> 00:03:25.520 delight and keep active the hairs on the back of 68 00:03:25.560 --> 00:03:28.240 your neck. But it's fun. Okay, let's learn what's creepy 69 00:03:28.280 --> 00:03:33.280 and why with Professor experimental Psychologist Ick Authority and thus 70 00:03:33.439 --> 00:03:55.960 let's just say serpopsychologist doctor Frank McAndrew. When I got 71 00:03:56.039 --> 00:03:58.039 the note back that you had said yes to this, 72 00:03:58.520 --> 00:04:00.639 I remember I was on the freeway. I was like, oh, 73 00:04:01.000 --> 00:04:01.879 my husband was driving. 74 00:04:01.879 --> 00:04:05.039 I was like, we got the creepy guy. Well, it 75 00:04:05.080 --> 00:04:05.919 is what it is, right. 76 00:04:07.560 --> 00:04:09.639 I'm sorry to call you the creepy guy, because you're 77 00:04:09.919 --> 00:04:13.080 exactly not that, because you study creepiness. 78 00:04:13.120 --> 00:04:16.040 Well, let me stop you right there, because there's an 79 00:04:16.040 --> 00:04:21.079 old saying in psychology that research is me search, which means, 80 00:04:21.319 --> 00:04:23.920 of course that psychologists study things that are issues in 81 00:04:23.959 --> 00:04:28.720 their own life. So don't jump to any conclusions. 82 00:04:30.000 --> 00:04:33.839 I understand that one of the first papers on creepiness 83 00:04:34.120 --> 00:04:36.279 from you was this in twenty sixteen that it. 84 00:04:36.279 --> 00:04:37.519 Came t sixteen, right? 85 00:04:38.759 --> 00:04:41.519 What led up to that? Were you doing me search 86 00:04:41.639 --> 00:04:44.759 about creepiness and could find nothing in the academic record? 87 00:04:44.959 --> 00:04:49.560 Well, I was doing research, not necessarily mesearch. I don't 88 00:04:49.600 --> 00:04:53.160 know what prompted it exactly. I started noticing how often 89 00:04:53.199 --> 00:04:55.439 I was hearing the term. You know, people would say, Oh, 90 00:04:55.480 --> 00:04:57.800 I'm not this guy, just creep me out, or you know, 91 00:04:57.839 --> 00:05:00.240 I was in this place that was really creepy, and 92 00:05:00.680 --> 00:05:02.480 I was hearing it over and over and again, and 93 00:05:02.800 --> 00:05:05.439 so I started asking people, well, when you say that, 94 00:05:05.519 --> 00:05:07.800 what do you mean. Is it the same thing as 95 00:05:08.079 --> 00:05:11.879 being afraid? Is it a same as being disgusted? And 96 00:05:12.160 --> 00:05:16.319 they always said no, it's something completely different. And so 97 00:05:16.399 --> 00:05:18.920 I got curious, Well, what is this thing we call creepiness? 98 00:05:19.040 --> 00:05:22.439 And being a good academic, I went to the literature 99 00:05:22.480 --> 00:05:25.319 and I was just blown away. There was not a 100 00:05:25.360 --> 00:05:30.920 single study, not even one ever done on creepiness. So 101 00:05:31.399 --> 00:05:33.360 I saw the chance to do something kind of fun 102 00:05:33.399 --> 00:05:35.519 and new. And I was working with a student who 103 00:05:35.639 --> 00:05:38.399 was looking for a research project, Sarah Kenke, who was 104 00:05:38.519 --> 00:05:41.399 the co author on the first paper. 105 00:05:41.360 --> 00:05:44.480 And Sarah Keanke, Frank tells me, worked as a model 106 00:05:44.560 --> 00:05:47.879 as well, this gorgeous woman in higher education who also 107 00:05:48.000 --> 00:05:51.000 happened to be born without a complete arm, and she 108 00:05:51.120 --> 00:05:53.720 was an athlete and represented the state of Illinois in 109 00:05:53.759 --> 00:05:56.839 the Beijing Paralympics. And she would tell Frank that she 110 00:05:56.920 --> 00:06:00.279 had discovered that, in addition to just guys hitting her up, 111 00:06:00.560 --> 00:06:03.160 there's this whole world of men out there that are 112 00:06:03.160 --> 00:06:07.759 apparently attracted to disabled women. But Frank tells me, naturally, 113 00:06:07.879 --> 00:06:11.439 she was very interested in the topic of creepiness, and 114 00:06:11.639 --> 00:06:15.000 Sarah co authored his first paper on creepiness, the twenty 115 00:06:15.040 --> 00:06:18.279 sixteen Study on the Nature of Creepiness, which was published 116 00:06:18.279 --> 00:06:21.959 in New Ideas and Psychology. And also just a reminder 117 00:06:22.000 --> 00:06:27.160 of why science benefits from inclusivity. Science is only as 118 00:06:27.199 --> 00:06:30.800 strong as the questions it answers, and who is asking 119 00:06:30.920 --> 00:06:34.000 the questions really matters. And for more on that, we 120 00:06:34.079 --> 00:06:37.279 have an episode on disability sociology with the wonderful doctor 121 00:06:37.319 --> 00:06:40.399 Gwen Chambers. But yeah, let's dive into the nuts and 122 00:06:40.439 --> 00:06:45.519 bolts of what that study revealed. Well, what is creepy. 123 00:06:45.839 --> 00:06:48.680 There's things that are scary and there's things that are creepy. 124 00:06:48.759 --> 00:06:51.360 Not all scary things are creepy. Not all creepy things 125 00:06:51.399 --> 00:06:53.839 are scary. Imagine there's some sort of Venn diagram here, 126 00:06:54.399 --> 00:06:57.639 what's the difference that makes your shoulders kind of like 127 00:06:57.839 --> 00:06:59.439 go up and protect your neck. 128 00:07:00.079 --> 00:07:04.199 I think of creepiness is sort of a precursor to scariness. 129 00:07:04.360 --> 00:07:09.839 Creepiness is all about uncertainty. There's something that's not right. 130 00:07:10.639 --> 00:07:13.959 You're not sure if it's something bad or dangerous that 131 00:07:14.000 --> 00:07:16.759 you need to worry about, but you're kind of wallowing 132 00:07:16.800 --> 00:07:20.800 in discomfort and you're like hyper vigilant. And this can 133 00:07:20.839 --> 00:07:23.160 be you're dealing with a person or a place. So 134 00:07:23.439 --> 00:07:27.240 maybe you're interacting with a guy who's sending you a 135 00:07:27.279 --> 00:07:30.839 weird vibe. There's you know, his nonverbal behaviors are off, 136 00:07:30.920 --> 00:07:37.399 he's steering the conversation and weird directions, and you're very uncomfortable. Now, 137 00:07:37.600 --> 00:07:40.079 this could just be an awkward person, right, who's not 138 00:07:40.279 --> 00:07:43.279 very socially skilled, and it'd be kind of rude to 139 00:07:43.439 --> 00:07:45.519 like start screaming and running away from him if that's 140 00:07:45.600 --> 00:07:48.279 the case. But on the other hand, if there is 141 00:07:48.319 --> 00:07:51.120 something to worry about from this person, you need to 142 00:07:51.160 --> 00:07:53.079 know that and you need to be ready to deal 143 00:07:53.120 --> 00:07:56.279 with it, and the creepiness, the being creeped out feeling, 144 00:07:56.920 --> 00:07:59.720 is what you're experiencing when you're trying to figure this out. 145 00:08:00.199 --> 00:08:04.839 You're lasered in on what's going on here. You're trying 146 00:08:04.959 --> 00:08:08.360 to make your mind up is this somebody I need 147 00:08:08.399 --> 00:08:11.199 to worry about or not? And the same thing happens 148 00:08:11.199 --> 00:08:13.279 with places. You can be walking around in a place 149 00:08:13.399 --> 00:08:15.759 you know it's dark and there's a lot of shrubbery 150 00:08:16.519 --> 00:08:19.319 and you can't see very far into the distance, and 151 00:08:19.759 --> 00:08:21.680 you don't know that there's anything there that's going to 152 00:08:21.720 --> 00:08:25.639 harm you. Sure, but you're not sure. Yeah, and so 153 00:08:25.920 --> 00:08:28.879 again you're hyper vigilant trying to figure out if there's 154 00:08:28.920 --> 00:08:34.000 something to be afraid of. So creepiness is all about ambiguity, 155 00:08:34.320 --> 00:08:37.440 the uncertainty. Once you figured out there is something to 156 00:08:37.480 --> 00:08:39.200 be afraid of and you know what it is, that's 157 00:08:39.240 --> 00:08:40.600 where the scary thing comes in. 158 00:08:41.159 --> 00:08:43.799 Got it. So it's like crosses that line and that 159 00:08:43.960 --> 00:08:48.799 must be evolutionarily wired to just usure you feel someone's 160 00:08:48.840 --> 00:08:51.000 eyes on you, or there's a puma that snapped a 161 00:08:51.080 --> 00:08:52.039 twig or something. 162 00:08:52.120 --> 00:08:56.120 Right, Yeah, we're programmed to think of worst case scenarios. 163 00:08:56.159 --> 00:09:00.200 So imagine your caveman ancestor walking through the woods and 164 00:09:00.240 --> 00:09:04.960 it's getting dark and they hear some things rustling in 165 00:09:05.000 --> 00:09:12.679 the bushes. Okay, it could be a predator, It could 166 00:09:12.679 --> 00:09:15.799 be an enemy waiting to get you, or it could 167 00:09:15.840 --> 00:09:18.159 just be a small animal or the wind or something 168 00:09:18.200 --> 00:09:20.639 like that. Oh, I see, Okay, what kind of mistake 169 00:09:20.720 --> 00:09:21.600 do you want to make here? 170 00:09:22.720 --> 00:09:23.120 All right? 171 00:09:23.440 --> 00:09:26.600 If you decide it's probably just the wind or a 172 00:09:26.679 --> 00:09:31.519 rabbit and it's not, those genes get removed from the population. 173 00:09:31.120 --> 00:09:33.799 Pretty quickly because your chill ass has died. 174 00:09:34.279 --> 00:09:37.639 On the other hand, if you overreact and you're scared 175 00:09:37.679 --> 00:09:39.679 and you're really looking at this and you're getting ready 176 00:09:39.679 --> 00:09:40.960 to run, and then you find out it is just 177 00:09:41.000 --> 00:09:44.480 a rabbit, well what's the cost of that. It's pretty small, right, 178 00:09:44.840 --> 00:09:49.519 And so people were selectively bred, so to speak, to 179 00:09:49.639 --> 00:09:53.519 be cowards in situations like this. To think about the 180 00:09:53.519 --> 00:09:56.519 worst case scenario. When you were talking about the precursor thing, 181 00:09:56.799 --> 00:10:01.039 I like to think of creepiness, horror, and fe as 182 00:10:01.200 --> 00:10:04.320 sort of links in a chain that go in a 183 00:10:04.360 --> 00:10:08.759 certain order. Good horror movies are the ones that walk 184 00:10:08.840 --> 00:10:12.559 us through all three of those. So think of the 185 00:10:12.600 --> 00:10:15.799 beginning of the good horror movie where you know it's 186 00:10:15.879 --> 00:10:19.159 normal life at the beginning, and then suddenly the characters 187 00:10:19.200 --> 00:10:22.600 in the movie are noticeding something isn't quite right. They're 188 00:10:22.600 --> 00:10:26.480 a little confused, a little apprehensive. That's the getting creeped 189 00:10:26.480 --> 00:10:30.120 out part. They move into the horror stage, when they 190 00:10:30.120 --> 00:10:33.240 start to realize, Okay, there really is a problem here, 191 00:10:33.279 --> 00:10:35.799 there is something to worry about, but at that stage 192 00:10:35.840 --> 00:10:38.360 they may not know exactly what it is or how 193 00:10:38.360 --> 00:10:40.720 to deal with it. And then the fear stage is 194 00:10:40.799 --> 00:10:44.039 when aha, I know exactly what the problem here is 195 00:10:44.080 --> 00:10:45.639 and I know what I should be trying to do 196 00:10:45.720 --> 00:10:48.840 to deal with it now. Bad horror movies sometimes skip steps, 197 00:10:49.159 --> 00:10:51.519 like the guy comes running out with the chainsaw right 198 00:10:51.519 --> 00:10:55.759 at the beginning, right, and there's no kind of foreplay building. 199 00:10:55.480 --> 00:10:57.279 Up to it, I was going to say. 200 00:10:58.480 --> 00:11:00.879 And then some movies kind of flop because they spend 201 00:11:00.919 --> 00:11:04.200 too much time in one stage as opposed to the other. 202 00:11:04.399 --> 00:11:07.320 So you spend too much time being creeped out, but 203 00:11:07.360 --> 00:11:09.879 nothing really happens, and then it gets kind of boring. 204 00:11:10.039 --> 00:11:13.399 So anyway, do you like horror movies or do you 205 00:11:13.440 --> 00:11:14.399 just see through them too much? 206 00:11:14.720 --> 00:11:14.840 Uh? 207 00:11:15.000 --> 00:11:16.720 No, I like them, but I don't get to see 208 00:11:16.720 --> 00:11:19.759 them very much because my wife hates them, and so 209 00:11:20.000 --> 00:11:22.000 we go to the movies that she's willing to see, 210 00:11:22.440 --> 00:11:23.600 which are not horror movies. 211 00:11:25.279 --> 00:11:26.960 I am a lot like your wife where I do 212 00:11:27.039 --> 00:11:30.360 not like to be scared in general. Did you have 213 00:11:30.440 --> 00:11:34.799 to exclude people with anxiety disorders from your research because 214 00:11:34.840 --> 00:11:40.440 they would be too far on the bell curve? No. 215 00:11:40.759 --> 00:11:44.320 One of the studies we did actually was interested in personality, 216 00:11:44.440 --> 00:11:47.240 like what predicts getting creeped out? And keep in mind, 217 00:11:47.279 --> 00:11:51.039 I'm not the one doing the scaring people stuff. I 218 00:11:51.080 --> 00:11:54.720 have some colleagues in Denmark in something called the Recreational 219 00:11:54.759 --> 00:11:57.639 Fear Lab where they're doing some really amazing stuff with 220 00:11:58.000 --> 00:12:00.799 virtual reality. They have people, you know, living in this 221 00:12:00.919 --> 00:12:05.159 virtual world where basically they're getting feedback from the person's 222 00:12:05.159 --> 00:12:08.440 biological reactions the things that are scaring them the most, 223 00:12:08.440 --> 00:12:11.399 and that steers the virtual reality even more and more 224 00:12:11.399 --> 00:12:13.600 in the direction of things that will scare them. They 225 00:12:13.639 --> 00:12:16.879 also work with commercial haunted houses where people volunteer to 226 00:12:17.519 --> 00:12:20.039 have their heart rate monitored and fill out questionnaires and 227 00:12:20.039 --> 00:12:21.759 all that. So they're doing some really. 228 00:12:21.639 --> 00:12:25.120 Cool stuff, such as studies titled Scared Together, heart Rate 229 00:12:25.159 --> 00:12:28.639 Synchrony and Social closeness in a high intensity horror setting, 230 00:12:29.000 --> 00:12:33.440 recreational fear across childhood, across sectional study of scary activities 231 00:12:33.480 --> 00:12:36.559 that children enjoy, and of course the twenty twenty four paper, 232 00:12:36.879 --> 00:12:41.320 First they scream, then they laugh, the Cognitive Intersections of Humor, 233 00:12:41.519 --> 00:12:45.559 which notes that fear is energizing and stressful and it 234 00:12:45.639 --> 00:12:49.039 activates our sympathetic nervous system and floods our bloodstream with 235 00:12:49.080 --> 00:12:53.320 adrenaline and cortisol. Now humorous amusement, on the other hand, 236 00:12:53.320 --> 00:12:58.200 it says, is palliative, involving soothing anddogenous opioids. So how 237 00:12:58.200 --> 00:13:01.679 did these scientists study it? It's a good question by 238 00:13:01.879 --> 00:13:07.200 examining horror comedy movies like Abbott and Costello Meet Frankenstein, 239 00:13:07.720 --> 00:13:12.759 and looking at online scare prank videos and the relative 240 00:13:12.919 --> 00:13:17.399 terror of the childhood game Peekaboo, where your caregiver is 241 00:13:17.440 --> 00:13:21.240 suddenly disappeared from planet Earth and then boom, they're back. 242 00:13:22.519 --> 00:13:25.919 But frank I basically ask people how creeped out they 243 00:13:25.960 --> 00:13:30.639 are by pictures that they're looking at or hypothetical things 244 00:13:30.639 --> 00:13:31.480 that they're imagining. 245 00:13:32.320 --> 00:13:34.120 Where are you getting these pictures? Do you have a 246 00:13:34.159 --> 00:13:37.559 Pinterest board of just the creepiest people like, how do 247 00:13:37.600 --> 00:13:39.159 you select what you're going to show to people? 248 00:13:39.360 --> 00:13:42.399 Well, actually I had several students working with me, and 249 00:13:42.480 --> 00:13:46.200 so it was their job to scour the Internet for 250 00:13:46.600 --> 00:13:51.320 pictures of creepy people, creepy places, and creepy things. And 251 00:13:51.360 --> 00:13:54.399 we got one hundred and some of these together, and 252 00:13:54.440 --> 00:13:56.799 then we had a smaller group of people rate them 253 00:13:57.200 --> 00:14:01.000 on a variety things creepiness, how confusing are they, how 254 00:14:01.039 --> 00:14:03.200 scary are they, and so on down the line. And 255 00:14:03.279 --> 00:14:06.519 so from that we pulled out the ones that got 256 00:14:06.519 --> 00:14:08.240 the highest scores on creepiness. 257 00:14:08.639 --> 00:14:10.840 What kind of pictures were they that made the cut? 258 00:14:11.519 --> 00:14:19.639 Well, the creepy places tended to be dark nighttime. One 259 00:14:19.759 --> 00:14:22.720 was like this big underwater hole that a person was 260 00:14:22.799 --> 00:14:26.600 kind of perched at the edge of. Creepy people were 261 00:14:27.080 --> 00:14:31.759 people who were like these spooky little girl identical twins 262 00:14:32.039 --> 00:14:35.320 that were in a black and white photo, a baker 263 00:14:35.600 --> 00:14:40.799 who makes pies with human faces on them where they're 264 00:14:40.840 --> 00:14:42.559 bleeding and all of that. 265 00:14:42.840 --> 00:14:45.360 How much of what we're creeped out by is innate 266 00:14:45.440 --> 00:14:48.120 and how much is cultural? Like if you had seen 267 00:14:48.159 --> 00:14:50.440 the shining, two little girls standing in a hallway means 268 00:14:50.440 --> 00:14:52.159 that there's going to be blood gushing out of an 269 00:14:52.159 --> 00:14:54.759 elevator in a second. And how much is just like 270 00:14:55.080 --> 00:14:57.200 whenever you see a face that's a pie that has 271 00:14:57.279 --> 00:14:59.480 boys and berry coming out of the eyeballs, then like 272 00:14:59.679 --> 00:15:03.120 it's no go. What is innate and what is cultural? 273 00:15:03.120 --> 00:15:04.240 Do you think? Well? 274 00:15:04.279 --> 00:15:10.000 I think anything that is potentially dangerous or threatening to 275 00:15:10.080 --> 00:15:12.279 us is going to be a universal thing that's going 276 00:15:12.320 --> 00:15:15.679 to be innate. So fears of dark alleyways late at 277 00:15:15.759 --> 00:15:17.759 night and things like that. I mean, if there was 278 00:15:17.799 --> 00:15:20.840 a place where it was very normal to see two 279 00:15:20.960 --> 00:15:25.279 strange looking identical little girls standing in the hallway, they 280 00:15:25.519 --> 00:15:27.919 would not think anything of that. It's all in what 281 00:15:28.440 --> 00:15:30.879 you're used to. So I'm going to lean in the 282 00:15:30.919 --> 00:15:34.799 direction of saying it's mostly an aid. It's wired into us. 283 00:15:35.039 --> 00:15:37.480 Yeah, And you know, going back a little bit to 284 00:15:37.519 --> 00:15:39.919 your co author on that first paper, Sarah, I believe 285 00:15:40.759 --> 00:15:46.000 and this notion of predators like our cave people ancestors 286 00:15:46.000 --> 00:15:51.559 in the forest, it seems like sexual predators men in particular, 287 00:15:52.399 --> 00:15:55.600 seem to give us the creeps much more than people 288 00:15:55.600 --> 00:15:58.960 who present as non male or who are femme. Is 289 00:15:59.000 --> 00:16:02.399 that this actual threat of just not knowing what might 290 00:16:02.480 --> 00:16:06.759 happen or is it a link to aggression? What makes 291 00:16:07.039 --> 00:16:10.279 certain people are certain genders creepier to us? 292 00:16:10.679 --> 00:16:15.159 Well, one thing we found very strongly males are creepier 293 00:16:15.159 --> 00:16:18.000 than females. And this is true whether you're a male 294 00:16:18.240 --> 00:16:21.279 or a female yourself. You're more easily creeped out by 295 00:16:21.320 --> 00:16:24.799 men than by women. And I think there are a 296 00:16:24.879 --> 00:16:26.639 number of reasons for that, but I think the big 297 00:16:26.639 --> 00:16:31.080 one is simply males are more threatening and dangerous in 298 00:16:31.120 --> 00:16:34.840 a physical sense than females are. Whether your male or 299 00:16:34.879 --> 00:16:39.279 female yourself, you're more likely to have something bad happen 300 00:16:39.320 --> 00:16:41.840 to you at the hands of a man than a woman. 301 00:16:42.559 --> 00:16:47.120 Women often reported that, yes, I think creepy people are 302 00:16:47.240 --> 00:16:50.360 likely to have a sexual interest in me. Yes, there's 303 00:16:50.399 --> 00:16:53.519 something about their sexual tastes that's part of their creepiness. 304 00:16:53.720 --> 00:16:56.240 So I think this is one of the things that 305 00:16:56.600 --> 00:16:59.960 are on women's minds a lot more than they are 306 00:17:00.039 --> 00:17:01.399 and men for good reason. 307 00:17:01.720 --> 00:17:04.519 So I've been ropped by two guys in broad daylight 308 00:17:04.640 --> 00:17:07.759 with kitchen knives, but now I've never been assaulted by 309 00:17:07.759 --> 00:17:12.359 a clown. But it does feel knock on wood, you're 310 00:17:12.359 --> 00:17:13.319 still done. 311 00:17:13.319 --> 00:17:16.720 Yeah right, I mean it's not over yet. 312 00:17:17.000 --> 00:17:19.880 It's not over yet I don't know what I'm doing wrong, 313 00:17:20.440 --> 00:17:24.160 but I've never felt threatened by clowns. But at the 314 00:17:24.200 --> 00:17:27.759 same time, when you start with the adjective creepy, the 315 00:17:27.799 --> 00:17:30.759 noun that follows I feel like it is most often clowns. 316 00:17:31.400 --> 00:17:33.880 Where did that come from? Is it because they are 317 00:17:33.920 --> 00:17:37.960 in disguise and around children? Like? What's the seed in there? 318 00:17:38.559 --> 00:17:43.160 All right, you're getting me started on clowns. So okay, Well, 319 00:17:43.200 --> 00:17:46.160 first of all, I had no interest in clowns. I 320 00:17:46.240 --> 00:17:48.880 it was not something I was studying. But one of 321 00:17:48.920 --> 00:17:50.559 the things they did in my first study was to 322 00:17:50.640 --> 00:17:54.440 rate the creepiness of different occupations, and the one that 323 00:17:54.480 --> 00:17:58.319 finished number one was clowns. And that's pretty munch all 324 00:17:58.359 --> 00:18:00.039 I had to say about it. I said, Okay, I 325 00:18:00.079 --> 00:18:03.079 heard the ratings. There were four that kind of stood 326 00:18:03.119 --> 00:18:06.079 out as the creepiest on our list. Clowns were number one, 327 00:18:06.119 --> 00:18:10.039 but taxidermists were right up there. Oh, funeral directors and 328 00:18:11.079 --> 00:18:12.440 sex shop operators. 329 00:18:13.000 --> 00:18:16.559 Really, yes, I wonder if that's changed in recent years 330 00:18:16.640 --> 00:18:19.759 or not. Again, this is Frank and Sarah's twenty sixteen 331 00:18:19.799 --> 00:18:23.640 study on the nature of creepiness, which explains that occupations 332 00:18:23.680 --> 00:18:28.599 that signal a fascination with threatening stimuli like death or quote. 333 00:18:28.759 --> 00:18:33.160 Non normative sex may attract individuals who would be comfortable 334 00:18:33.279 --> 00:18:36.720 in such a work environment. Hence, it says some occupations 335 00:18:36.759 --> 00:18:39.920 may be perceived as creepier than other occupations, and their 336 00:18:39.960 --> 00:18:42.799 research revealed that only four occupations were judged to be 337 00:18:43.359 --> 00:18:48.160 significantly higher than neutral on the creepiness rating scale, and 338 00:18:48.279 --> 00:18:51.839 ranked number four on the list was funeral directors and 339 00:18:51.960 --> 00:18:53.799 number three was sex shop owners. 340 00:18:54.039 --> 00:18:57.599 But anyway, clowns and taxidermists were number one and two. Anyway, 341 00:18:57.759 --> 00:19:00.400 I was asked to write an article because I don't 342 00:19:00.400 --> 00:19:03.200 know if you remember the creepy clowns scare in twenty sixteen. 343 00:19:03.680 --> 00:19:07.119 I do, I do. I had forgotten. I had forgotten. 344 00:19:07.759 --> 00:19:10.799 At Emerald Commons apartments off White Horse Road say they're 345 00:19:10.839 --> 00:19:13.799 on edge after kids reported seeing a man dressed in 346 00:19:13.839 --> 00:19:17.519 a clown costume wandering through the woods near these dumpsters 347 00:19:17.559 --> 00:19:18.119 Monday night. 348 00:19:18.279 --> 00:19:21.759 There were clowns allegedly lurking in the woods, luring children in, 349 00:19:22.279 --> 00:19:25.640 attacking people with knives. There were all these stories about 350 00:19:25.640 --> 00:19:28.839 creepy clown sightings. People were looking out their door at 351 00:19:28.920 --> 00:19:30.720 night and there's one under the street light in front 352 00:19:30.759 --> 00:19:33.440 of their house. This was very much in the news, 353 00:19:33.440 --> 00:19:35.720 and it was around Halloween. Now, I'm not the one 354 00:19:35.759 --> 00:19:39.680 who is saying clowns are creepy, right, I'm just saying, 355 00:19:40.119 --> 00:19:43.480 given that people think they are, why would that be Well, 356 00:19:43.519 --> 00:19:48.400 I became sort of the poster boy for clowns for 357 00:19:48.559 --> 00:19:52.720 ruining their occupatients for their career. Yes, I was the 358 00:19:52.759 --> 00:19:55.640 one that was visibly saying things and in the news 359 00:19:55.960 --> 00:19:59.759 about clowns being creepy. There was this ringleader clown on 360 00:19:59.759 --> 00:20:03.440 the way Coast who started stalking me on social media 361 00:20:04.039 --> 00:20:06.839 and doing everything he could to destroy my reputation. He 362 00:20:06.920 --> 00:20:11.119 was leaving angry voicemails on my phone. He even contacted 363 00:20:11.119 --> 00:20:13.960 the president of the dean of my college to have me, 364 00:20:14.079 --> 00:20:18.039 if not fired, at least disciplined. Now, this was all 365 00:20:18.079 --> 00:20:20.319 in an attempt, by the way, to show me that 366 00:20:20.359 --> 00:20:25.960 clowns are not creepy. Right now, Yeah, my wife and 367 00:20:25.960 --> 00:20:27.640 I were terrified that this little car was going to 368 00:20:27.680 --> 00:20:30.240 pull up in front of our house sometime with the 369 00:20:30.240 --> 00:20:33.039 clowns piling out. But oh no, I had to go 370 00:20:33.039 --> 00:20:34.319 inhead and have a meeting with the dean in the 371 00:20:34.359 --> 00:20:41.119 college about this clown business and anyway, so I digress here, 372 00:20:41.319 --> 00:20:43.720 getting back to why they're creepy. Well, first of all, 373 00:20:43.720 --> 00:20:46.839 they've never been good, right, If you go all the 374 00:20:46.880 --> 00:20:53.039 way back in history, clowns were always pranksters. If you 375 00:20:53.079 --> 00:20:54.799 go to the circus and they pull somebody out of 376 00:20:54.799 --> 00:20:57.799 the audience, you know that nothing good is going to happen, right. 377 00:20:59.000 --> 00:21:03.240 And it's again it's about unpredictability. You don't know what 378 00:21:03.440 --> 00:21:07.359 they're going to do, right, And a lot of the 379 00:21:07.400 --> 00:21:11.279 things that we use to decide if somebody is creepy 380 00:21:11.480 --> 00:21:13.920 is do they seem to be playing by the rules 381 00:21:14.000 --> 00:21:16.920 or not. When you're interacting with somebody, we have a 382 00:21:17.000 --> 00:21:20.519 script that we follow, right, you know how you're supposed 383 00:21:20.559 --> 00:21:22.440 to behave when you meet somebody, and what's okay to 384 00:21:22.480 --> 00:21:24.960 say and what isn't and how you're supposed to act. 385 00:21:25.839 --> 00:21:28.839 Clowns break all those rules that they have, the funny clothing, 386 00:21:29.640 --> 00:21:32.279 they have, the makeup, so you can't even tell who 387 00:21:32.279 --> 00:21:35.920 they are, and you can't really tell what they're feeling, right, 388 00:21:36.000 --> 00:21:39.000 So you can't read them the way you read other people. 389 00:21:39.519 --> 00:21:41.720 If I'm having a conversation with you, I'm looking at 390 00:21:41.720 --> 00:21:44.279 your face to see if you're paying attention, if you're 391 00:21:44.759 --> 00:21:48.599 smiling or frowning. The clown has this smile painted on 392 00:21:48.599 --> 00:21:51.200 his face, but I'm guessing he's not really happy, and 393 00:21:51.279 --> 00:21:53.319 so we're on our guard against him. All this stuff 394 00:21:53.359 --> 00:21:56.400 that we talked about earlier about having your creep detectors 395 00:21:56.440 --> 00:21:58.680 active to figure out if there's something to worry about 396 00:21:58.920 --> 00:22:02.200 the clown sets that up off big time. Everything about 397 00:22:02.200 --> 00:22:07.920 the clown triggers that. So they've always been something that 398 00:22:07.960 --> 00:22:11.519 puts us on our guard, especially when you encounter them 399 00:22:11.559 --> 00:22:13.680 in places that you don't expect to. Okay, if you 400 00:22:13.720 --> 00:22:16.200 go to the circus, all right, you paid your money, 401 00:22:16.279 --> 00:22:18.160